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Appearances
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
It's an investment of your time, of your finances. And maybe if your family's assisting you, it's an investment of their finances in you. It's also an investment, especially if you're at a Christian college, of donors who have enabled that college to be there and enable you to be there to study.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And it's an investment of time, of the administration, of the staff, and certainly of the faculty as they are educating you. And again, if it's a Christian college, also seeking to disciple you. So college is an investment. College also is intense investment. a lot is concentrated into a short amount of time in college.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
There's a lot of introductory courses, so intro to philosophy or intro to sociology or intro to theology. And so you have professors who are experts in those fields, and they've studied for decades in those fields, and they've got to compress all of that field into one semester. And it may feel like you're sitting in class drinking at a fire hose because you, in fact, So, college is just intense.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Everything about it is intense. And also, if you are a college student, here's one thing we can say for sure. It's your vocation. It's your calling. If you're there, God has put you there. God has called you to that, and it is your post. Calvin loved to talk about vocation, and Calvin would say, whether you are a pot washer or Or you are on sentry duty. This is your calling of God.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And so college is an investment. It is very intense. And it is your calling. You are to apply yourself to it. So that's college. Now let's think about what church is. Church is the God-ordained institution. So church is God-ordained, and what that means is it is absolutely essential and central to your Christian life.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Dr. Nichols, we have a question from a new college student, and they're wanting to know how can they balance their workload in school with their desire to serve and minister in their local church?
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
So now we have two important things that can be very demanding, and now we have to balance them. And here's where you begin to learn what is very important to learn as you go through college, not just knowledge, but wisdom. And so how can we wisely balance pursuing our education as a calling and our ministry in the church? Well, let me just say a few things. First, you need to attend church.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
You need to attend church joyfully, and you need to attend church attentively. So that means you're not out all hours of Saturday night and then finding yourself trying to hold your eyelids open during the Sunday morning service. So attend joyfully and attend attentively to the service. But as far as service goes,
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
I would say, and this is a principle for whatever stage of life you find yourself in, look for areas of service that are compatible with your training, with your gifting, with your age, and that are compatible with your time and attention to those other callings in your life. So I'll give you an example of this. I have a friend who's a CPA, and he loves to teach Sunday school.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
But their church is set up with a quarterly Sunday school system, and they have a wide pool, a deep bench of Sunday school teachers. So he's never able to teach in quarter one and quarter two because he is just so busy with his practice that the time he has, he needs to make sure he gives proper attention to his family, and there's not a whole lot of time left over.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
But when it gets to quarter three and quarter four, now he's able to teach Sunday school. And so in a sense, you could see your college life like that. It's a season of life. There's an intensity there. And you may have desires to do things, but those things you have desires to do may not be compatible with the time and attention that you have.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Well, first of all, let me say to you, congratulations on being a college student. I remember talking to Dr. Sproul about just how wonderful it is to teach in colleges. And he said the reason that he loved teaching in college, and actually the reason that he wanted to start a college was, and he was very frank, he said, I want their minds.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Or take, for instance, a family and we have a young mom with an infant or a father with a young infant. Well, that might be a time where they're not able to pursue a certain ministry in the church. And later in a season in life, they'd be able to. So this is something that's going to be with you your whole life.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And I think you have to be, again, careful to just look for those areas of service beyond attending that are compatible with where you are in life and the time and attention you can give to it. We need to recognize that we are finite creatures and we all have the same amount of time in a week.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And we have to steward that time well so that the opportunities that God has given and put in front of us, we are optimizing and we are making the most of. And I'll just say one more thing. The service that you might want to be doing in church or can be doing while you're in college will likely not be the service you'll do as an older adult in church.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
How can college students balance their education with their service and ministry in the church? Joining me this week for the Ask Ligonier podcast is Dr. Stephen Nichols. He's a Ligonier Ministries teaching fellow and also the president of Reformation Bible College.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And that's okay because you need to have some more gifting, more developing, and just more life and wisdom and seeing the application of scriptures in your life for some of those teaching ministries and some of those other ministries that may come to you later in life. But those opportunities to serve are there.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And if you can serve where you're needed most and be faithful in those opportunities to serve, I fully believe that God honors that by bringing opportunities to us later in life as we serve faithfully. So God bless in your studies. God bless as you serve the church and as you balance that intensity and that calling of being a student with being a member of your church.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
I'm Nathan W. Bingham, and this has been Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. If you'd like to ask a biblical question for a future episode, you can always call us at 1-800-607-9386, or record that question on your smartphone and email it to us at askligoniervm at ligonier.org. And if you like the show, please leave a review on your favorite podcast app.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Because we learn from sociologists that your sort of mental development and sort of the development of you and your worldview really takes place in two moments in your life when you're in that four to six, two to six for some people, age span, and then college. So these are very important years in your life.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
So let me just encourage you to make the most out of your college experience as you develop your worldview and affirm and go deeper on your convictions and set that trajectory for your life. And you're asking a very important question. How do you balance your education with ministry in the church? Well, first, let's just think a little bit about college. First of all, college is an investment.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And so if you put those two words together, it means to lead from the beginning or to lead from the outset. And so as it is applied to Christ, Jesus is the author or the pioneer, and that's really probably the better translation, because as the pioneer, he is the one who has led from the beginning. He is the one who went from the beginning. He went from the outset.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
He was the one who went early on and led. And the second word in Hebrews 12.2, Jesus is both the author or pioneer and finisher or end. perfecter of our faith. The word there is very helpful because it is related to the same word that Jesus used when he said on the cross, it is finished.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And so it speaks to Christ's perfect life, law-keeping life, fulfilling each and every aspect of the law of God, fulfilling the righteous demands of the law of God, so that when he died, his life that was perfect and sinless, even though he was tempted in every way as we are yet without sin, that Christ's life is the basis of our righteousness. He earned it for us.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And so we are saved by his works, his righteousness, his perfect life, so that when he died, his death would be a sacrificial atonement, a substitutionary and a vicarious atonement that was finished for us. So when Hebrews speaks of Jesus being the author or founder or pioneer of our faith and the finisher of our faith, it's not only saying that he's gone before us, that he's gone from the outset.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
but also that He has finished it for us. He has completed it for us, that we are secure. That's why the author of Hebrews tells us to look to Him, and not just to look to Him, but to fix our eyes on Him, because He is our hope. He is the one who's gone before us. He has won the victory, and we have nothing else ultimately to fear.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
You have been listening to Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. R.C. Sproul founded this ministry, and for over five decades, we've been helping Christians know what they believe, why they believe it, how to live it, and how to share it. To learn more about Ligonier, download the free Ligonier app from your favorite app store or visit Ligonier.org.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
The language of Jesus being the author and perfecter of our faith comes from Hebrews 12 and verse 2. And I think a lot of Christians really don't understand what those words mean because they've been translated variously in different Bible translations. Sometimes we hear the word author. Sometimes we hear the word pioneer. Sometimes it's even translated as founder.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
What does it mean that Christ is the author and perfecter of our faith? This week on the Ask Ligonier podcast, we're joined by Dr. Burke Parsons. He serves as Ligonier's chief editorial officer and is also the senior pastor at St. Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Florida. Dr. Parsons, what does it mean when Scripture speaks of Christ being the author and perfecter of our faith?
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
So that Jesus is the founder and perfecter, or the author and finisher, or the pioneer and finisher of our faith. And so I think a lot of Christians are confused about what do those words mean? And just as importantly, how do we understand those words and how do they apply to our lives?
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
Especially as we look to Jesus as the author and perfecter of our faith, which is what the author of Hebrews is telling us to do in our fight against sin, in all of our struggles. What does it mean that he is the author and perfecter of our faith? Well, let's look at those words individually. First of all, we have the word author or founder, or as it's translated elsewhere as pioneer.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And that word in the original language is comprised of two words. The first part of the word is the word ark. And of course, we have cognate to that word in English. We have archaeology and archetype. And essentially, that word means early or first or beginning or from the outset. The second word in that compound Greek word is the word ago, which means I lead.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Sproul was a fantastically clear communicator. And for all his intellectual ability, he gave his life to communicating Christian theology to ordinary Christians who had never been to seminary. So that, I think, is where I would begin.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Another book I might recommend, which is a much older book, but a very attractive book, is a book by a man called Thomas Watson, who was a minister in London in the 17th century. And I think he must have been a fantastic minister to have. He had a tremendous reputation.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
ability to express Christian theology in ways that are digestible and also with a great warmth and with some wonderful illustrations and even some great Latin phrases. Even if you don't know any Latin, you know, it's kind of attractive to read and to think about. And I think they're translated in the modern version. So everyone's a theologian and body of divinity.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Then the next stage, there is a book that I think is really a very beautiful exposition of Christian theology written by the Dutch theologian Herman Bavinck. It was translated into English, I think, in the 1950s and published then as Our Reasonable Faith. And it's been more recently republished in a much more attractive edition called
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
with the original title of Magnalia Dei, The Great Works of God. And Bavinck was a theologian of the first rank, a wonderful theologian. And this is a quite separate book that he wrote for Christians in general. It's, I think, probably more challenging than either Dr. Sproul or Thomas Watson, But it's a very engaging book. He just writes with a lovely warmth.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
And I think that's a book that teaches you that high-level theological thinking can be very beautiful to read. Then beyond that, I think you come to the stage where you're starting reading systematic theology textbooks. And a book I used a lot when I was a teenager and into my 20s, now probably about 80 years old, I think, is a book called Systematic Theology written by Louis Berkhoff.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
It is not the most readable book in the world, but it's absolutely jam-packed with information. And I think that's very helpful. And then to crown it all is a four-volume systematic theology by the same man, Herman Bavinck, which has been translated into English only, I think, in the last 30 years. And it is really just an outstanding exposition of theology with great warmth.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Well, asking questions about books today is asking to select out of probably thousands and thousands of good books that are available to us. But when people ask particularly about theology books and systematic theology books,
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
And then, if you're still game for more, there are modern systematic theologies by people that listeners to Ligonier broadcast are probably familiar with, perhaps especially Joel Beakey's multi-volume work on systematic theology, Michael Horton's work on systematic theology, Bob Letham's work on systematic theology. And these are larger and they're all written by native English speakers.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
They're written by people who are living in the modern world and therefore, in a way, are more up to date. So those books, I think, would keep people going on a summer vacation and into the long winter nights. And I think they're all very helpful indeed.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
This is Nathan W. Bingham, and you've been listening to Ask Ligonier. If you like the show, why not subscribe or write a review on your favorite podcast app? If you'd like more information or for the archive of episodes, simply visit ask.ligonier.org slash podcast.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
What are some good systematic theology books to help believers grow in their faith? This week we're joined by the vice chairman of Ligonier Ministries, Dr. Sinclair Ferguson. He's also a Ligonier Ministries teaching fellow. Dr. Ferguson, what systematic theologies would you recommend to a Christian to help them grow in their faith?
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
I think we can start from what I would recommend to somebody who was beginning right through to what I might recommend to somebody who had already studied a lot of Christian doctrine and theology. So the book I recommend to people who are beginning is Dr. Sproul's book, Everyone's a Theologian. for a couple of reasons. One is because the title takes people by surprise.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
And by the title, he's echoing Martin Luther actually in the title, but by the title, he is helping people to realize that it's not just some people who are to think theologically, but that we all think theologically. It's just that we either think well theologically or bad theologically. And it's written for ordinary Christians. It's superbly well written. R.C.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And I think it's not only important, but I think it's liberating for us to understand that God understands our chronic sickness, and He wants us to take care of ourselves. And that's not just an option, that's actually a command. That's part of what it means to love ourselves as we love our neighbors.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
We want to care for our neighbors, but it really is a command that we should also care for ourselves. And I'm struck by the fact that when Paul writes to Timothy, remember, he says to Timothy, who obviously himself suffered from some kind of chronic sickness. It seemed to be gastric in nature, but maybe affected other parts of his anatomy.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
He says to him, make sure you take care of yourself and take a little wine for your stomach's sake. And he actually says, stop drinking water. And I think that's an indication that there was some conflict in Timothy and that Paul is saying, Timothy, you will not be of use in the kingdom unless you take care of yourself. So it's really important to do that.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And I think it's also releasing to know that the Scriptures encourage us to do that. Because often as Christians, we have this inner drive to do more. And sometimes that drive can lead us astray. So I would say that's the first thing.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
I think the second thing I would say is that in the very nature of the case, a chronic sickness or chronic illness is not only physical, it also usually affects us emotionally and psychologically, and therefore can also affect us spiritually. it can make us prone to discouragement and even depression.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
If there is in your church a friend with a cheerful spirit, but who is also not irritatingly cheerful, who has a sympathetic spirit, then cultivate that friendship. And then I think most of all in this connection, keep your eyes fixed on Christ because he understands you and he is sympathetic.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
Dr. Ferguson, we have a question this week from someone who suffers from a chronic illness, and they'd like to know how they can balance sacrificial love and service to others with taking care of their own body.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And then the third major thing I think I would say is we live in an evangelical subculture where our spiritual value is often measured by what we do, whereas in Scripture our spiritual value is measured by two things. One is how much God loves us because He's given His Son for us. And the second thing is, what matters to Him is not so much what we do, but who we are and what we become.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And you do not need to be doing as a Christian to minister to others. Just your being, the way you are as a Christian, even the way you handle chronic sickness as a Christian, leaves its mark on others. I think I saw that many, many years ago.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
A man I knew who had been at university for quite a number of years when I arrived at university, and because he had various illnesses, including a brain tumor that was operated on at least a couple of times, we ended up in the same year in theological studies and became very good friends. He was a very unusual person, really unusual person.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And eventually he was really debilitated in many ways by his illness. And he went to be with the Lord. And afterwards, he was doing a doctorate at the time, but he was quite a bit older than I was. And I was given his papers to see if I could make something of them. And I wrote a little memoir of him with some things that he had done.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
But as I looked at the papers, I was really puzzled because I couldn't, I was looking for something that told me this is what this man's life was for. You know, a kind of tangible fruit of his life. And then it dawned on me that that actually wasn't what God purposed him to be for. and that the really important thing about him was not what he accomplished, but what God made him.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
Because you couldn't be with him without seeing how God had given him grace to be strong in the midst of his weakness and to keep looking to Christ in the midst of his affliction. And he was a great example to me of that principle. It doesn't matter what you do or what you can't do, but that God ministers to others through what you are.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
Well, suffering from chronic illness is a suffering that other people don't always see. And I think that in itself can present certain challenges to people. You know, if you break a leg, people are sympathetic and you discover an amazing number of people seem to have broken a leg as well. And there's a community of sympathy.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
As someone who suffers from a chronic illness, how do I balance service to others with taking care of my own body? Joining us this week on the Ask Ligonier podcast is Dr. Sinclair Ferguson, a Ligonier Ministries teaching fellow and also our vice chairman here at Ligonier.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And I think that's a very helpful thing to remember when, you know, our powers are lessened, not just through chronic illness, but also when we get older. and we feel we're not doing as much as we used to be able to do. That it's who we are in the family of God that really matters.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
I'm Nathan W. Bingham, and this has been Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. To browse our growing library of podcasts, including Renewing Your Mind, Ultimately with R.C. Sproul, Things Unseen with Sinclair B. Ferguson, and others, simply search for Ligonier Ministries in your favorite podcast app.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
But I think one of the things that happens with somebody who experiences chronic sickness is that with it they can feel quite isolated. And that sometimes produces a certain sense of conflict within them that they want to do more to serve Christ, but they don't feel able to do more. So I think I would say certain things.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
The first is to remember what the cabin staff say when they speak to you at the beginning of a flight, that in an emergency, there will be masks that will drop, you hope, from these compartments above you. And if you're carrying somebody who's a child or you're with somebody who is unwell, make sure you put your own mask on before you help somebody else.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
with respect, and we'll see later, Peter's going to use the word to talk to unbelievers and non-Christians of reverence, but with respect, and then also to back up our message, as it were, with the lifestyle and with the conduct. So what is true for these believing wives of unbelieving husbands is also true for believing sons and daughters of unbelieving parents.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Your question was framed so well that, yes, you need to love and you need to respect. God has ordained the family. It is a part of the natural law, the natural order of things that we talk about. And whether they're Christians or non-Christians, all children are to obey their parents and to honor their parents. It's part of the Ten Commandments, which is a codification of natural law.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And so having family relationships that are loving, that are kind, that are respectful are required of all of us as Christians and non-Christians, but especially required of us as Christians. And that's not contingent on those other family members being Christians. The other place where we can get some insight is a little bit later in 1 Peter 3.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Now here, Peter is not talking at all about family relationships. He's just talking about Christians and non-Christians. And so Peter says at 1 Peter 3.15, "...but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you." Yet, he adds, do it with gentleness and respect.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Well, first let's look at the activity there. Peter says you need to be ready. If you get asked, why do you have this hope? Why are you a Christian? You need to be ready to give an answer. So you need to be prepared. So you ask, how do I witness to my parents? Well, anticipate some of the questions they might ask. You know them. You know what objections they might have.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
They might think that, well, all Christians are hypocrites. Well, be ready to respond to that. They may have doubts about the Bible. Can it really be authoritative? Can it be trustworthy? Anticipate that and be ready to give an answer for that. So we call this apologetics. In fact, we get that word from this verse.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
The words that are translated to make a defense is actually the Greek word apologia, and that's from which we get apologetics. But Peter's not only interested in the message, he is interested in the message, but he's also interested in how we convey the message, not just the content and not just being willing to give that answer, but how we give it and the manner that we give it.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Of course, if God has opened your eyes to the truth of the gospel, you want that for the people in your life. You want that for your loved ones. You want that for your siblings and your parents and your friends. So I can really appreciate where the question is coming from. Fortunately, we have help because Scripture helps us on this. In 1 Peter chapter 3, Peter writes.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And so he says, yet do it with gentleness and respect. Now that word translated respect in the ESV, is the same Greek word back in 1 Peter 2, verse 17. And back in 1 Peter 2, verse 17, we read, "'Honor everyone, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor.'" Now that expression, fear God, is of course the word phobia, from which we get phobia in English.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
It's the same word over in 1 Peter 3.15. We could easily translate respect there as fear. So one way you can't witness to your parents is by being unloving, unkind, and argumentative. That's not following Peter's advice here, whether it's the specific advice to wives and their husbands earlier in the chapter or to all non-Christians in the middle of the chapter. So think very much about that.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And then lastly, I would say pray. Just pray. You know, there's all kinds of stories from church history of mothers praying for their wayward sons. Probably there's no better story than Monica and Augustine. And well, she might have done more than pray because she also followed Augustine wherever he went all around the Mediterranean world and kept tabs on him.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
I believe one time Augustine slipped out in the middle of the night, did not tell her where he was going. She found him anyway. So that might be extreme. But one of the things Monica never stopped doing was praying for Augustine. And decades later, God answered those prayers. So we hear lots of stories of of parents praying for their sons and daughters, prodigals, to come home.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
How can I properly love, honor, and witness to my non-Christian parents? This week on the Ask Ligonier podcast, we're joined by the president of Reformation Bible College, Dr. Stephen Nichols. He also serves as a teaching fellow at Ligonier Ministries. Dr. Nichols, how can a Christian love, honor, and witness to their unbelieving parents? Hmm. That's a great question.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And so we also need to recognize that God wants the sons and daughters to pray for the unbelieving parents. And so that's very important to do in this process of loving and honoring and respecting and witnessing, is to pray. And I have no doubt that you do. But let me just encourage you to be steadfast and persevere in those prayers.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
I'm Nathan W. Bingham, and this has been Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. If you'd like to ask a biblical question for a future episode, you can always call us at 1-800-607-9386, or record that question on your smartphone and email it to us at askligoniervm at ligonier.org. And if you like the show, please leave a review on your favorite podcast app.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Now, he's not talking about children to their parents and sons and daughters to their parents. He's talking about wives to their husbands. But I think it applies. And Peter says, likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands so that even if some do not obey the word. So what we're talking about here is wives who find themselves with husbands who are not believers.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And Peter uses that expression, who do not obey the word, to represent unbelievers. So wives married to unbelieving husbands, Peter says to them, Be subject to your own husbands, even if they don't obey the word, so they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives. He goes on to say, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. So this is where we need to begin.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
All right. So you want to look into how to build socialism from below. And you've given us a really interesting mix of stuff to dig into here.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's about cultivating those values of cooperation, solidarity, compassion, even in our everyday interactions.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Yeah, because at the end of the day, the world we create starts with the choices we make each day.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
How we treat each other, how we consume, how we engage with our community.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So as we wrap up this deep dive, I want to leave you, our listener, with this question.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
If you were to start building socialism from below in your own community, what would your first step be?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And who knows, your step might inspire others to follow, creating a ripple that could change the world.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's a really interesting concept. Yeah. He's saying that every time we engage in activity purely for the love of it, for the joy of creating something or helping someone. Yeah. We're kind of subtly pushing back against that logic of capitalism.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
You're not doing it for some external reward. Right. You're doing it for the intrinsic satisfaction of the activity itself.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And that's like a powerful act of defiance. Yeah. In a world that's increasingly dominated by market forces.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Exactly. And your sources offer some really good concrete examples of how this is already happening. Things like worker cooperatives, community land trusts.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's like they're creating these pockets of socialism.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
These little glimpses of what a different kind of society could look like.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. So if we're talking about building socialism from below, it can't just be about economics.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So groups like Cooperation Jackson, which specifically focuses on empowering black working class communities. They're saying that building socialism from below needs to start by addressing those systemic inequalities.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's not just about building a better future. It's about reckoning with the past and addressing the injustices that continue to shape our present.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So how do they actually go about doing this? Well, what are some of the strategies they use?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's not about just waiting for some big revolution. Right. You know, it's like, what can we do right now? Yeah. Right where we are.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's about changing the way we do things, changing the way we relate to each other.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. Direct democracy from ancient Greece to modern day movements. There's this idea of people coming together face to face to make decisions collectively without relying on representatives.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
But let's be real. Isn't that incredibly challenging to implement on a large scale?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Especially in today's complex societies. Sure. How do you get millions of people to participate in every single decision?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So things like neighborhood assemblies, worker councils, community based decision making processes. Exactly.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's not about throwing out everything and starting from scratch. Right. It's about finding ways to introduce these more democratic practices into our existing structures and gradually expand their reach.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
That's been nagging at me too. It seems like a lot of the examples we've been talking about are very localized. But how do we scale that up to create systemic change?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK, so less about top down control, more about people power.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
I mean, are we talking about getting rid of wages altogether?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's like planting the seeds of a new economy right within the old one.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And that reminds me we are about to dive into some real world examples. Yes. Of these cracks in capitalism.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Before we pause. Mm hmm. Your source mentioned things like community gardens, time banks, even open source technology and the sharing economy.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK, so let's break these down a little bit. OK. Community gardens. I get that.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
You know, growing your own food, being sustainable, building community.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It fits right in with this whole from below idea.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Like a mini socialist society in action. Yeah. Working together, sharing the rewards.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK. So it's basically the idea that the way we organize and make decisions like within our movements should reflect the kind of society we actually want to create.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
With climate change and all the uncertainty in the world.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So instead of paying someone to fix my leaky faucet.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
I could trade them like an hour of my questionable guitar skill.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's a way of recognizing those essential jobs that often don't get paid enough.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Like the care work that women usually end up doing.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Okay. This is all starting to sound pretty utopian. I mean, could it really work on a large scale?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK, let's tackle the tricky one. Open source tech and the sharing economy.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
I mean, companies like Uber and Airbnb. Right. They're all about profit.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So a community owned ride sharing platform that's nonprofit is totally different from a corporation like Uber that's exploiting its workers and driving inequality.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Making technology free and modifiable. So communities can build their own platforms instead of relying on corporations.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's about creating a more decentralized democratic society.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Where people have more control over their own lives.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's a shift from this like me first mentality to one of cooperation and understanding that we're all connected.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's like that quote from The Ecology of Freedom.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
The most distant journey begins with a single step.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Precisely. It's about building the world we want to see one step at a time. And it's not just about formal organizations. It's about fostering a culture of mutual aid, cooperation, respect in all aspects of our lives.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
We've got some theory. We've got some real world examples.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Before we get lost in these big ideas, let's make sure we've got the key takeaways down.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
We talk about how even doing things we love outside of the market can be a form of resistance. And we looked at real world examples like community gardens, time banks, open source tech.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. We've talked about big ideas, but what are the actual steps you can take starting today? I think that's what our listener really wants to know. OK, so we've explored all these inspiring ideas.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
But like, I think our listeners ready for some action.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
What can they actually do to start building socialism from below?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's about finding those little cracks in the system.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And seeing how you can fill them with something better.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
You know, one of your sources, Jackson Rising Redux, really stressed the power of connecting with like-minded people. It's about finding those individuals and groups who are already working towards these goals.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's not about blindly supporting any politician who calls himself a socialist.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Are they truly working to empower communities and redistribute power?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. It's about finding ways to influence policy at the local level, pushing for things that create space for these alternative systems to thrive.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Exactly. It's about using whatever tools you have to create a more fertile ground for socialism from below to take root.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Get ready to dive deep into a topic most people think they know, but really probably don't.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And then this subsequent descent into terror under the Bolsheviks.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's essential to remember that this legacy of terror continues to haunt Russia to this day.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Run deep, shaping the country's political culture and their relationship with the world.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's a sobering reminder of the dangers of unchecked power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. As we move into the final part of this deep dive.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
The world today. Man, this has been quite a journey.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
You know, from Lenin's promises of freedom to the brutal realities of his rule.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And then this horrifying expansion of terror under Stalin.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It really is. And I think it's clear, you know, that the seeds of tyranny were sown very early on.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. It's a stark reminder that revolutions, even those launched with the noblest intentions, can be corrupted by power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So as we wrap up this deep dive, it's important to kind of shift our focus from the past to the present.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. Because understanding how terror takes root, how it spreads, how it infects even the most idealistic movements, that's essential to preventing its recurrence.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So, I mean, one of the, I guess, the most important lessons here is this danger of unchecked power, right?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. We're going to go way beyond, you know, the storming of the Winter Palace.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
We need to look at Lenin. Right. Lenin. Yeah. His ideology, his approach to revolution. Because initially he was presenting himself as this champion of democracy and freedom.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. Both Lenin and Stalin were able to consolidate their authority because there were no effective checks and balances in place.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Even in the context of, you know, a revolution that's supposed to be championing the rights of the working class.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's right. That's right. And while it's impossible to create perfect systems of governance, I think we can and must advocate for structures that promote transparency, accountability, and the rule of law.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So it's about supporting the institutions that uphold these values.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Like a willingness to recognize those warning signs.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. The warning signs of authoritarianism. Right. And a willingness to speak out against injustice.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's got to be tough, you know, sometimes to do that.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And we've seen how easily fear can take hold.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So I think courage is a crucial antidote. Yes. To that fear.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And courage isn't always about, you know. Right. Grand gestures of defiance. Right. Yeah. It's about the everyday choices we make. OK. It's about being willing to question authority. Yeah. To challenge the status quo, to speak truth to power, even in small ways.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And that means being critical of all forms of power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's right. We have to be willing to challenge our own assumptions.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. And listen to perspectives that are different.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's easy to fall into that trap of thinking that our side is inherently good and their side is inherently bad.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, he does. He demonstrates very powerfully how the lines between good and evil, between liberator and oppressor, can be blurred very easily when power goes unchecked.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's important to remember that, you know, Lenin truly believed he was acting in the best interests.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But his unwavering conviction. Right. His refusal to tolerate any dissent. Right. Ultimately led him down this path of just unimaginable brutality.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's this cautionary tale about, you know, the seductive nature of power and the dangers of ideological rigidity.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's not just about protecting individual rights. Right. It's about ensuring that we can hold power accountable and that we can challenge dangerous ideologies before they take root and metastasize.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Which is kind of wild. Like what was that? Did he have a change of heart?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And we see this throughout history and even in the world today. Right. Governments, powerful interests.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Trying to control the narrative, to suppress dissent, to manipulate public opinion.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, I mean, not really a change of heart when he learned that the provisional government had abolished the death penalty. He was furious. Really? Yeah. As Trotsky recounts in his memoirs, Lenin believed that executions were an indispensable tool for consolidating power and maintaining order.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. And it's scary to think that with the rise of social media, it's easier than ever to spread propaganda and disinformation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And these are incredibly powerful tools for communication. But they can also be used for manipulation and control.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So I think media literacy is more important now than ever before.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
We really got to be able to critically evaluate the information we consume.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's that old saying, don't believe everything you read on the Internet.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But these days, it's not just the Internet. It's everywhere. It's everywhere, you know. We're bombarded with information from all sides and we have to sift through the noise.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's much easier to just passively consume information.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
whatever's in front of us to accept the dominant narrative or question.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But this deep dive has shown us that kind of apathy and complacency can have dangerous consequences. So what's the antidote to this apathy?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, I think for one, we can support organizations that are fighting for human rights and democratic values. We can educate ourselves about the issues.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Engage in thoughtful discussions. Hold our elected officials accountable.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah, and I think it's important to remember that even individual actions can make a difference.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes, they can. Speaking up against injustice, challenging harmful narratives, having difficult conversations with friends and family members. These are all acts of courage.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah, and you never know they might have this ripple effect.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And I think it's also important to never underestimate the power of storytelling. Sharing these stories of those who have suffered under tyranny, fought for freedom, I think can connect with this history on a human level.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
By continuing to fight for a more just and equitable world.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
This book, The Guillotine at Work, it's not just a chronicle of terror. It's also this testament to the resilience of the human spirit.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it reminds us that even in the darkest of times, there is always hope.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Let's keep this conversation going. Yeah, let's keep it going. Let's learn from the past, stay engaged in the present, and work together to create a future where all forms of tyranny, both the wet and the dry guillotine, are relegated to the history books.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, thank you for joining us on this deep dive into the Russian revelation. Yes. We hope it's inspired you to think critically about the world around you.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And to really embrace your own role in shaping a more just and equitable future.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Exact one. Really get down into the weeds of a darker, more complex story of how these revolutionary ideals get twisted into these like instruments of oppression.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Not at all. Maximoff cites official Bolshevik sources that reveal a horrifying number of executions under Lenin's rule.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Even conservative estimates are in the hundreds of thousands.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And he justified this bloodshed in the name of discipline and suppressing enemies.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Mm-hmm. Precisely. Lenin was convinced of his own infallibility. Any opposition to the Bolshevik Party line, any deviation from his vision was a threat to the revolution itself.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes, to root out and eliminate enemies of the people. That's what they call them, enemies of the people.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So who were the enemies of the people at first? I guess it was the bourgeoisie, right? The wealthy elite.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Which I guess is somewhat understandable given the time.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah, but it quickly expanded as Maximoff documents.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it wasn't just the bourgeoisie anymore. It was political opponents like the Mensheviks.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. So anyone who questioned his authority at all, regardless of their political affiliation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Who advocated for individual liberty and decentralized power. Right. Lenin hated that. Yeah. He saw that as a threat to his vision of a centralized authoritarian state.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And what's often overlooked is that it wasn't just like one event.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Just resisting the government's grain requisitions.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. They saw it as a threat to the Bolsheviks control over food distribution, which was essential for them to maintain power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. And so they were demonized, dehumanized, crushed. And Max Moff really details the brutality.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Employed to silence any dissent. Nope. Shooting hostages.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But it was a series of power struggles and shifts in ideology, each more brutal than the last.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
I mean, this was this was the reality, the so-called dictatorship of the proletariat.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And then there's this whole other dimension of terror.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. That Maximoff refers to as this dry guillotine.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So this is where we see Lennon's true genius. Yes. for control, right? The Dry Guillotine wasn't about brute force. It was about a more insidious form of oppression. The control of minds through fear and manipulation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it's like something out of a dystopian novel or something.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It does, doesn't it? But this was the reality in Russia under Lenin. Really? Think about it this way. The wet guillotine, right? Yeah. Eliminated physical opponents. Yeah. But the dry guillotine sought to eliminate opposition itself by controlling what people could think.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And that's where our source material comes in for this deep dive at work. Yeah. 20 years of terror in Russia.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, one of the primary tools was censorship. Independent media was shut down. Anything deemed harmful was destroyed. Libraries were purged of anything that didn't align with the Bolshevik ideology.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. So they were really trying to control the flow of information?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Absolutely. They wanted to create a monopoly on truth.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. They encouraged people to inform on each other, which created an atmosphere of suspicion and paranoia where even family members couldn't trust one another.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it's like turning... Turning people against each other. Yeah.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. And they also used propaganda extensively, right?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. Propaganda was key. It was a weapon in their arsenal to glorify Lenin, to demonize his opponents and create this cult of personality around him. Wow. It was everywhere in schools, workplaces, art, literature, shaping people's perceptions and molding their thoughts.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it's like they were infiltrating every aspect of life. They were. You couldn't escape it.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's like they wanted to control not just your actions. That's right. But your mind.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And Maximoff wasn't just like some historian, you know, kind of watching this all from afar.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's a good way to put it. They aim to create a society where obedience wasn't just enforced, but internalized.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So even if you disagreed with the regime, you'd be too afraid to speak out.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. So this dry guillotine was in a way even more effective than the wet guillotine.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. Way more effective. Because it created this self-perpetuating cycle of fear and self-censorship.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
You didn't need the Checo to come knocking at your door. You were already censoring yourself.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. The Russian Revolution, but not the one you might see in like a textbook or something.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And paranoia. But wasn't this terror just confined to like those outside the party?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, that's where things get even more disturbing.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Because Lenin wasn't content with just silencing dissent outside the party. Right. He was just as ruthless in purging anyone who dared to question his authority.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. Maximoff shows how Lenin systematically sidelined, expelled or exiled prominent figures like Tomsky and Miasnikov, who had the audacity to disagree with him.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Living through this whole thing, you know, witnessing firsthand how the Bolsheviks led by Lenin transformed this promise of liberation into a reign of terror.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it wasn't just about eliminating external enemies.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. Crushing any potential challenge to that power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. Wow. And this is important to remember because this internal purge, this atmosphere of suspicion and fear within the party.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Okay. And that's where we're going to pick up in part two of this deep dive.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
We'll examine how Stalin took this blueprint that Lenin laid out and amplified it to a horrifying scale.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And how the terror became like this defining feature of Soviet life.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. Welcome back. As we kind of dig deeper into Maximoff's book, you really see how Stalin's reign of terror, it wasn't like a sudden departure from Lenin, you know, it was more of a continuation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Down a dark path, exactly. And this period between Lenin's death in 1924 and Stalin's complete consolidation of power is really crucial, I think, to understanding how it evolved.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. You know, I would assume that with Lannan gone, there might have been some sort of like reprieve.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
No, not even close. In fact, you could argue that the dry guillotine, the system of psychological manipulation, social control that we talked about, it became even more refined and systematic during this time. Wow. Why is that? Well, I mean, remember, Russia is in a state of immense turmoil after the Civil War. Right. The economy's in shambles. There's widespread famine.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And his account is so striking because he uses official Bolshevik documents and eyewitness accounts to weave a narrative that goes beyond, you know, just the physical execution.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
People are grappling with the uncertainty of a new political order.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, he was a master manipulator. He positioned himself as the only one strong enough to restore order. The only one capable of defending the revolution from its enemies.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And just like under Lenin, These enemies seem to like multiply at an alarming rate.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. It was a chilling echo of what we saw before.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Anyone who deviated even slightly from the party line was suspect.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But Stalin took it a step further. Right. He wasn't content with just silencing dissent. Right. He wanted to control people's very thoughts.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's terrifying. Like, how do you do that? What were the tools?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, censorship became even more pervasive and ruthless. Independent media was completely eradicated. Wow. Any publications deemed even remotely critical were destroyed. Libraries were purged of anything that didn't align with the official ideology.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
They were. They understood the power of information and they were determined to monopolize it.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it went beyond just controlling information. Right. They actively shaped people's worldview through propaganda.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's like if the party said the sky was green, you better agree.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Very dire. This is where the Chica, now renamed the OGPU, became Stalin's primary instrument of terror. They carried out mass arrests, deportations, and executions with a chilling efficiency.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, no, no, no. This wasn't random violence. This was calculated.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
You know, he went after specific groups. Okay. Peasants who resisted collectivization, religious leaders who challenged his authority, intellectuals who dared to think independently, and even members of the Communist Party itself.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
As opposed to the wet guillotine. Right. Wow. This is the systematic crushing of dissent through exile, censorship and psychological manipulation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wait, party members too? I thought they were supposed to be like the most loyal supporters of the regime.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Stalin was paranoid to the core. Yeah. He saw enemies everywhere.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Anyone who showed even a hint of independence. Right. Anyone who might potentially challenge his authority had to be eliminated.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Where millions were arrested, executed, sent to labor camps.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
The Great Purge was the terrifying apex of Stalin's reign of terror.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's hard to believe that this all happened under the banner of socialism.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Like, how could something that started with such noble intentions go so wrong?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's the question that haunts Maximoff throughout his book. He argues that the seeds of this terror were present in the very ideology of Bolshevism, you know, in its belief in the absolute power of the state and the need to crush all opposition.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
In a way, Stalin was just taking Lenin's ideas to their logical conclusion.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
In a sense, yes. But you also have to remember that Stalin was a ruthlessly ambitious and cunning individual who exploited those ideas to serve his own lust for power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So was there any like organized opposition to Stalin? I mean, were there any like groups or individuals who dared to resist?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
There were there were pockets of resistance, but they were brutally and swiftly suppressed. Right. Maximoff highlights how even within the Communist Party, there were those who bravely spoke out against the excesses of the regime.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Trotsky. Yeah. He vehemently opposed Stalin's rise to power. Right. And criticized the authoritarian direction the Soviet Union was taking.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's fascinating. This this contrast between the initial February revolution, which was relatively bloodless.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, he was exiled from the Soviet Union. And then in 1940, he was assassinated.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. It's like this system where fear was the only acceptable emotion.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And that fear extended far beyond the borders of the Soviet Union. The purges and show trials, they sent shockwaves through the international communist movement. A lot of people were disillusioned, questioning the very ideals they once believed in.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
I can't even imagine like the level of paranoia and distrust.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It did. Maximoff describes the society where everyone was walking on eggshells, constantly afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
By a neighbor, a colleague. Right. A family member even.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It was a world where trust had been completely eroded.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Ever feel like you've read the same self-help book a dozen times? Just a bunch of recycled platitudes.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Like what? Just give us an example.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Which makes me think about another one of his rules, the one about judging others. I always find that to be such a tricky subject because it's so easy to slip into judgment, even when we're trying not to.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So what's Carter's advice on how to approach those judgments with more compassion and understanding?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about extending grace to others, recognizing that we all have our own unique struggles and challenges.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Hmm. That's an interesting way to put it. So it's about trying to see the world through their eyes, to understand the context of their experiences before we pass judgment.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about recognizing that our way isn't the only way and that diversity of thought and experience is what makes life so rich and interesting.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, interesting. What's his take on the whole social media phenomena?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about using those platforms to build bridges rather than walls to foster understanding rather than division.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
That's a really beautiful way to look at it. It's about using technology to cultivate compassion and connection, to create a sense of community in a world that can often feel isolating.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about choosing to move forward without being defined by the past or the actions of others.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, wow. That's powerful. It's a reminder to approach those relationships with tenderness and understanding, especially as our loved ones enter their twilight years.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about honoring the wisdom and experience they've accumulated over a lifetime while also extending grace and patience as they navigate the challenges of aging.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
He's inviting us to engage in that ongoing conversation about what it means to be human with all its complexities and contradictions.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
On that note, to our amazing listeners, we'd love to hear your thoughts. Which of Carter's rules resonated most with you? How are you putting these ideas into practice in your own lives? Keep those conversations going, keep diving deep, and we'll be back next time with another thought-provoking episode. Until then, be well.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
That's powerful. It's not about condoning what happened, but about reclaiming your own emotional well-being.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Okay. I'm intrigued. How does he redefine courage? Isn't it about facing your fears?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's that whole take the log out of your own eye idea, right? It's about acknowledging that we're all works in progress and none of us has it all figured out.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Tell me about it. Nobody actually enjoys being criticized, even if it's meant to be helpful. So what's Carter's advice on handling criticism gracefully? Both when we're on the receiving end and when we need to give it to someone else.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like that Maya Angelou quote, people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. So even when we're offering constructive criticism, it's got to come from a place of compassion, not judgment.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Whoa, that stops you in your tracks, doesn't it? It makes you realize how much our experiences shape how we see the world.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about bridging that gap between us and them, recognizing that we're all part of this big, messy, beautiful human tapestry.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Talk about an eclectic mix. So who is this Mason Carter? Fill us in.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Interesting. So it's like, don't wait for someone else to point out your flaws. Be proactive about identifying areas where you can improve.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about taking ownership of our own journeys, right? Not relying on others to validate us or tell us who we are.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
OK, humility. I feel like that word gets tossed around a lot these days. But what does it actually mean in this context?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about embracing the possibility that other people might have something valuable to teach us, even if we don't always agree with them.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Love and selflessness. Those sound like pretty lofty ideals. How does he connect those dots?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
And he's not just talking about romantic love here, right? This applies to our relationships with our friends, our families, our communities.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's like that ripple effect. When we act from a place of love and compassion, it creates these positive waves that extend outward, impacting not only the people we interact with directly, but also those we interact with, and so on.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Prefiguration. Now there's a word you don't hear every day. What does that even mean?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Okay, so we've got Gothic lit and socialism. Those don't usually go together, do they? How does that work?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
OK, I'm starting to see how this all fits together. So it's not enough to just talk the talk. We have to walk the walk. Our actions have to be in alignment with the values we espouse.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about being the change. Which makes me think about something else Carter talks about. Anger. Because let's face it, even with the best intentions, we all get angry sometimes as a normal human emotion. But it can also be incredibly destructive if we don't know how to handle it constructively. So what's Carter's take on anger management?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, I know that voice all too well. It's like the master of rationalization, always ready with a reason why it's OK for me to unleash my fury on the world.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about taking a step back, taking a few deep breaths and choosing a different response, even if it's difficult in the moment.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Which is often easier said than done, especially when we feel like we've been wronged.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about breaking free from that cycle of reactivity and choosing a more conscious, compassionate response.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Apologies. Those can be tough. Sometimes it feels like swallowing our pride. What's Carter's take on that?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about recognizing that we've hurt someone, even if it wasn't intentional, and taking responsibility for our part in this situation.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about creating a space where we can be vulnerable with each other, where we can mess up and be forgiven, where we can learn and grow together.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's like he's embracing the duality of human nature.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, education. Always a hot topic. What's Carter's take on the current state of our education system?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about moving away from that rote memorization, that teaching to the test mentality and fostering a love of learning for its own sake.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about empowering them to think critically, to question assumptions, to challenge the status quo.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
The good, the bad, the beautiful, the messy.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
And he uses some pretty interesting examples to illustrate his points, right?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
You've got it. He talks about how those two didn't just regurgitate the teachings of Socrates. They built upon them, challenged them, and ultimately created their own unique philosophies.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Precisely. And he argues that this active engagement with knowledge shouldn't be confined to the classroom. It's something we should all strive for throughout our lives, always seeking new information, new perspectives, new ways of understanding the world around us.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
I love that. And, you know, another area where Carter encourages us to go deeper is in our relationships. He's not a fan of superficiality or pretension. He believes that true connection comes from a place of authenticity and vulnerability. So it's about being genuine, letting our true selves shine through, even with all our quirks and imperfections.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like we're building walls instead of bridges. We're missing out on the beauty of true intimacy, that feeling of being seen and accepted for who we truly are.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Okay, I'm all ears. What's Carter's secret to happiness?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Wow, that's so simple yet so profound. It's about appreciating what we have, who we're with, and the beauty of this present moment, rather than constantly chasing after something more.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about savoring those everyday moments, the laughter, the conversations, the shared experiences that make life so rich and meaningful.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
I can get behind that. So how does this all play out in his 36 Rules for Life?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Well, buckle up, because on today's deep dive, we're talking 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter. And trust me, this is not your average self-improvement guru.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like that old adage, joy shared is joy doubled.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about recognizing our interconnectedness, that we're all part of this intricate web of life, and that our actions have ripple effects that extend far beyond what we can see or even imagine.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Is it like a how-to manual for embracing our inner darkness?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like we become these little beacons of hope, lighting the way for others to step into their own authenticity and embrace a more compassionate way of being.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Like his rule about approaching pessimism from a place of wisdom and preparedness, not doom and gloom, right?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about acknowledging the darkness without letting it consume us.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Right. It's about holding on to that spark of hope, that belief in our own resilience and the possibility of a brighter future.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
We're all in this together, stumbling and striving, learning and growing. And sometimes we need a little guidance along the way.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
And to find those unexpected sources of wisdom and inspiration even in the darkest of corners.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about being open to those unexpected sources of wisdom, those little sparks of truth that can ignite our imaginations and inspire us to live more meaningful lives.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, that's not what I would expect it. How does he spin pessimism in a positive light?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's like that old saying, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. It's about being realistic without letting fear paralyze us.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
I like that. It's about approaching life with a healthy dose of caution, but not letting that caution turn into cynicism or despair. It's about being prepared for setbacks without losing sight of our goals.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Right. So get ready for a deep dive into a story that's, well, it's heartbreaking for sure, but also hopeful. Yeah, hopeful. We're off to Karachi, a city, you know, bustling with life, but also struggling with poverty and hardship. And we're going to meet Zero and Ziba.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And then there's, well, Ziba develops this gothic look.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It makes their first meeting even more powerful. Here's Zero. He's out, forced to beg by his uncle. And then there's Ziba with this gothic look. And she's, well, she's surprisingly kind to him.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Two people, they understand suffering, they understand hardship, and they find comfort in each other.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Two people who teach us about resilience and those unexpected ways, ways we find connection, even when things are really, really tough.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's something special to see, especially in a place like that. But then there's Zach. He comes into Ziba's life from a totally different world. He just got back from studying abroad, and he brings this sense of hope with him.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And the conversations they have. Wow. They get into everything, life, the universe. It's electric. They challenge each other.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
But their connection, it feels fragile, doesn't it? Yeah. Like a flower trying to grow in the middle of the sidewalk.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And it explodes. Zach's parents, they don't want them together. So they find out about Ziba's past and they use it against them to manipulate Zach.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And it's just heartbreaking. He just crumbles under that pressure. He confronts Ziba, wants answers, but he doesn't even give her a chance to explain.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Yeah. And it reminds us how quickly trust can be broken. Yeah. And it leaves, well, it leaves devastation behind. Ziva's heartbroken, abandoned again, and she retreats back into herself, back into that darkness.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
He buries himself in his studies, using them to avoid his pain. And there's this bench in a park. It becomes his place to be alone, to remember Ziba.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And that's when he meets Faye. She's, well, she's a free spirit. She sees right through his walls, right to the pain he's hiding. And she offers him a lifeline, makes him laugh, encourages him to live again.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Their connection, it's a slow burn. Two people who are hurting, trying to find comfort. But there's hope there, a little light in all that darkness.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's a battle he has to fight on his own. But as he's doing that, his life takes another turn. One that will bring even more heartache and a huge revelation. So Zach's back in England. Trying to move on, you know. But he's got the weight of the past on his shoulders.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Right. And it's like their lives are, well, they're kind of like a tapestry, I guess. Like all these threads killing a much bigger story. About Karachi. Yeah. But we should start with Zero. Just imagine being orphaned at six years old during a terrorist attack.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And it's ironic, isn't it? Because just as he's finding some stability, some success in England, something happens back in Karachi. Something that'll shatter everything.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It is. Remember Zero. He's been trying to survive on the streets just a kid.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And this is where, well, it gets even darker. Two police officers see Zero and, well, things get out of hand.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's awful. Zero's terrified. He just runs and then he's gunned down. A life lost just like that over a desperate attempt to eat.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's almost too much to bear. But there's this detail, this chilling detail. The officers find something in Zero's hand. A golden locket.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Talk about a cruel twist of fate. And that locket, it becomes a key piece of the puzzle, and it eventually finds its way back to Zach in England. Can you imagine getting that call, finding out a kid you knew, a kid connected to your past, was killed, and he had your picture?
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
He realizes that his actions, his choice to leave, had consequences he never imagined. And if you think it can't get any worse, it does. Zack, he's reeling from Zero's death, and then he finds out Faye, the woman who helped him rebuild his life, she's betrayed him.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Zack's left with so much to deal with. It's a lot, even for a character in a story.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
They really do make you think, long after you've finished with the story. You question yourself, your own biases.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It really makes you wonder about those what ifs. What if Zach had just listened to Ziba?
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
What if he had challenged those expectations, fought for their love?
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
That's right. Zero, Ziba, even Zach. They went through so much, but they never lost their capacity for love, compassion, and hope.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's a powerful message, a reminder that hope exists, that connection is possible, and that the human spirit, well, it can overcome just about anything.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Ooh, Zen. Yeah. Talk about a wolf in sheep's clothing. Right. Forcing Zero into servitude, basically exploiting his own nephew.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's bleak. But then we meet Ziba, a young woman whose beauty is almost haunting.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Like it's a reflection of all the pain that she's gone through. Similar to Zero, she lost her parents in a senseless act of violence. And her uncle, well, he turned out to be no better than Zen.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And when you called 911, where were Jacob and Sabrina? In the garage still. Do you know if they were standing or if they were on the ground or where they were? I don't recall. Do you know if Mr. Kerr still had the knife? I believe so. What were your emotions like at that time? Fear. Terrified. I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B6. Can you identify what that photograph depicts?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That is the hallway leading to the bathroom and the bedrooms. Is that where you headed after you closed the door to the garage? Yes. There is a railing on the left. Where does that staircase go? That leads to the basement. What's in the basement? That was mine and Sabrina's room and storage. There's a door on the right in this photograph. What is in the door on the right?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That would be the bathroom. Did you look in that bathroom on your way back to Eson's bedroom? Yes. What did you see? I saw a body wrapped in a blanket and stains all over the floor. Did you spend much time going in that bathroom and looking with any specificity? Could you see who it was? No. Did you make an assumption in your mind about who it was? Yes. Who did you believe it to be? Hison.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So the doorway all the way at the end of the hall, what is that doorway? That is the door to Hison's room. Is that where you went? Yes. I'm showing you what's been marked as 1B7. What is depicted in this photograph? Hison's room. There's a door immediately to the right. Do you know what that door is? I believe that is a closet.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then there's a door in the back on the right, a doorway that you can see. Where does that doorway lead to? That is the bathroom. And is that where you went? Yes. When you came in through the garage, do you remember if you locked the garage door? I don't believe I did. When you came into Hisan's bedroom, do you remember if you locked that door? Yes, I did. And when you came into the...
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He's on the bathroom. Did you lock that door as well? Yes. What did you do when you got into the bathroom? I grabbed a towel to wrap up my arm and called 911. And did you just stay in the bathroom then, Ken, while you were on the phone with 911? Yes. Do you recall where in that bathroom you were standing? Up against the door. How was your body positioned?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I had my back up against the door and I was standing. While you were in the bathroom, do you recall if anybody else came into the house? Yes. What do you recall?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe that Kayer came back inside and tried to get into the bathroom. How do you know that? Because I could hear him outside of the door.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You know for sure it was him? No. But you suspected it was him? Yes. I'm showing you what's been marked as exhibit 1B8. Can you identify what's depicted in that photograph? Yes, that is the bathroom. There is what appears to be some staining on the floor of the bathroom. Did you observe that staining on the floor of the bathroom before you entered the room? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Based on where you were standing and the nature of your injury, do you believe that staining came from your injury? Yes. And is that standing consistent with where you were standing in the bathroom? Yes. Do you recall making that phone call to 911? Yes, I do. And you recall talking to the dispatcher and remaining on the line until officers arrived? Yes. Did officers eventually arrive unseen? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When they arrived, do you recall dispatch telling you to leave the residence? Yes. And what did you do? I walked through the house and out of the front door. Did you walk back out the garage door where you came in, or did you walk out a different door? I walked out a different door. And that was the front door to the house? Yes. Were officers waiting there to meet you? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's the house where you resided with Sabrina and Sunny Teague? Yes. And were you living there in June of 2016? Yes. Were you working at that time? Yes. Where were you working? Burger King. Do you know about the date range of your employment with that Burger King? January, I believe, until July or August. Is that January 2016? No, yes, 2016, sorry.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then what happened after you met with officers? I was put into an ambulance and rushed to the hospital. Do you recall which hospital you were at? Fallon. What was the nature of the injuries that you suffered?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There was a severed main artery, several severed tendons and nerves. And that is all that I know. What about the injury to your chest? Do you remember that? Yes, I do. And that was just a lesion. Do you recall what you were wearing that night? Yes, I was wearing my black khaki pants and my Burger King work shirt.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, do you recall whether or not you had any weapons on your person that night? Yes. What did you have? I had a pocket knife. Is it typical for you to carry a pocket knife? Yes. Do you recall, did you use that knife at all during this incident? No, I did not. Do you recall dispatch having a conversation with you about that knife? Yes. What was the nature of that conversation?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They asked me if I had any weapons, and I told them that I had my pocket knife, and they told me to take it out of my pocket and leave it in the bathroom. Did you do that? Yes, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm going to ask you to take a look at Exhibit 1B9. Can you see that knife in that photograph? Yes. Where is it located? Towards the front left of the drawer. And 1B10, can you identify what's present in that photograph? Yes, that is my pocket knife. It appears to be on a tissue. I don't mean to lead you. I don't know whether that's a tissue or not.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Was that white tissue-like object, was that yours or was that in the drawer? That was in the drawer. And again, did you utilize that knife at all during the course of this incident? No, I did not. And you did, in fact, leave it there to be recovered or photographed by law enforcement? Yes. Joel, I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B11.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Can you indicate what's depicted in that photograph? That is mine and Sabrina's room. And which room of the home is that located in? That was downstairs in the basement, the first door on the right. And that's where the two of you stayed together? Yes. I don't mean any offense by this, but it's kind of messy. Is that sort of the normal state of affairs in that room? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, I'm going to ask you to identify Exhibit 12. Can you indicate what's depicted in that photograph? That is one of our windows. I'm going to return to photograph number 11. The window in 12, is that photograph present on this photograph, photograph 11? Yes. And which window is it? That would be that one. I believe you were pointing to the top left-hand side of photograph 11. Is that accurate?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. In number 11, that window is covered. Is that right? Yes. I'm going to return to photograph 12. It appears that there is some grass or plants on the bottom of that, and it appears that the window is broken. To the best of your recollection, prior to June 7, 2016, did the window area look like that? No. Was it broken to your knowledge at all? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, you indicated that you were wearing your Burger King shirt that night. I'm going to ask you to take a look at photograph 1B13. What's depicted in that photograph? That is my work shirt. That's the shirt you were wearing on the night of this incident? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Now, Joel, I know this might be difficult, and ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this might be difficult, but I'm going to show you some photographs that depict your injury, okay? Yes. I'm showing you 1B14. Do you know what's depicted in that photograph? That is my arm. Is that what it looked like after the incident with Mr. Kayer on June 7th of 2016? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And I think you indicated that the knife went directly through your arm. Is that accurate? Yes. Is there a hole on the other side that's not depicted on this photograph? Yes. And that required surgical intervention? Yes. Joel, I'm showing you 1B15. What's depicted in that photograph? My chest and face. Does that photograph accurately depict the injury to your chest? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you start Burger King before or after you started dating Sabrina? After. So January of 2016. Is that correct? Yes. And how long had you resided at that 1368 residence? About six months. During your time living there, had you ever seen or known a person by the name of Jacob Kayer to be at that house? No. Joel, I'm going to direct your attention specifically to June 7th of 2016.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And in 1B16, can you describe what's in that photograph? The wound on my chest. And again, does that accurately depict the injury that you suffered in this incident? Yes. And you indicated what treatment was required for that injury?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I had to go under for surgery, and they sewed my arm back together, and I had three stitches in my chest.
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Joel, as we were having our conversation here today, you were talking to the jury about what happened to you. You called the defendant Kayer. Did you know Jacob Kayer by first and last name on June 7th of 2016? No, I did not. Did you know his last name? No. You did know his first name, though? Yes. Had you met him previously? Once. Where did that occur? At Walmart.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you know about when that was? About a month prior to June 7th.
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And what was the nature of that meeting? Him and Sabrina got into an argument about something, and then we left after that.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I presume at some point, based on that argument and your follow-up conversation with Sabrina, you learned that his name was Jake and that he was Sabrina's ex-boyfriend? Yes. When Mr. Kayer jumped out of that laundry room, did you immediately recognize him as Sabrina's ex-boyfriend? No, I did not. When did you come to recognize him more specifically that night? When she called his name out.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So Sabrina actually called him Jake during the incident? Yes. And then based on what she said and then your subsequent observations, you were able to determine that it was her ex-boyfriend Jake? Yes. Mr. Kerr say anything to you while this attack was happening? No. Anything at all? No. Could you see his face when he came out of the laundry room? Yes. And what was he wearing?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe a black t-shirt, a hat, and jeans. The hat, was it like a baseball cap or what was it? Like a stocking cap. And what color was the hat? Black. But his face was not covered? No. You were able to see it clearly? Yes. What did it look like? Plain. And again, to the best of your knowledge, Mr. Kerr had never been to that house while you were living there? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the only time you ever met him was at that Walmart incident earlier? Yes. Joel, do you recall talking to law enforcement after you were brought to the hospital? Yes. Do you know about how many times you talked to law enforcement? I believe three different times. How soon after the incident did that occur?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
About right before I went into the surgery, so about half an hour.
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Half an hour after what? After the incident. Half an hour after the incident or half an hour after you got to the hospital? After the incident. And then did you talk to law enforcement subsequent times at the hospital again? Yes. In preparation for the court here today, did you have an opportunity to review any of the statements or the information that you had provided to law enforcement? Yes.
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And did you know anything about that information that you provided to law enforcement that was consistent or inconsistent with what you said today? Yes, they were inconsistent. Were they substantially inconsistent? No. Do you recall some of the inconsistencies? No, I do not.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
But certain wordings and certain sayings were different than other statements.
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The information that you provided to the jury today, is that the information that you remember to the best of your ability? Yes. And do you recall emotionally what you were like when you got to the hospital? I was scared, in pain, still terrified. Do you remember what shoes you were wearing when you came to the residence that day? No, I do not.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you remember if you took your shoes off prior to going into the house? Yes, I did. You know where? On the porch leading to the door. Was that typical? Yes. Was it a no-shoes house generally? Yes. Okay. I'm going to show you just two last photographs, one B-17. I asked you to take a look at that photograph on B-17. There's a shoe, appears to be a shoe, in that photograph.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And are you from the Green Bay area originally? No. Where are you from? Milwaukee. And do you live in that area now? Yes. At some point in time you were residing up in the Green Bay area, is that right? Yes. Can you tell us how that came about? An ex of mine. And that's not Sabrina? No. At some point in time did you meet a person by the name of Sabrina Teague? Yes, I did.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you remember that day? Yes. Were you living in the 1368 Riverdale Drive residence at that time? Yes. Had you moved out or lived in a different residence at all kind of immediately prior to that? Yes, I did. Where were you living immediately kind of prior to that? What's the timeframe? With a friend and for a couple months. So is that in like the spring of 2016?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
To the best of your recollection, is that your shoe? No. Do you know if that was Sabrina's shoe? Did you ever see her wearing that shoe? I do not think so. I'm just going to show you one B-18 that's close up of that same shoe. Does that change your opinion at all, whether that was yours or Sabrina's? No. Just a brief follow-up, Joel. Do you recall...
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you able to have any specific recollection of where Mr. Kayers stabbed Sabrina? No, I believe all over. Did you see him stab him multiple times? Yes. Joel, I want to ask you one last question. It's probably a little bit uncomfortable, but have you ever been convicted of a crime before? Yes. How many times? Once. All right. I have no further questions at this time.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. Mr. Cotton?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Good morning, sir.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You were asked questions by the prosecutor about inconsistent statements. Do you remember that? Yes. And you said that your statements were inconsistent. Is that what you said? Yes. Meaning that you gave three different statements to the police. Is that what you said? Yes. And then we have a fourth statement here in court, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And actually more statements were made because you prepared with the district attorney's office for trial, right? Yes. In other words, you sat down with them and discussed what you would testify to. Yes. Okay. And you've talked to others about this over time as the years have gone by. Fair to say? Yes. Okay. People have wanted to know what happened, and you've shared what's happened, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Now, regarding the inconsistent statements, were you – I just want to explore that a little bit further. I'm holding up here something that – does this look familiar? Can you see from where you're sitting?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What am I holding? What do I appear to be holding up?
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That is the first statement.
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Your first statement.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Meaning... Okay. Okay.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, that is my first statement.
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Yes. Yes. Yes. Now, you had a chance to look at this statement again when you were preparing for trial with the district attorney's office, fair to say? Yes. And that's when you noticed inconsistencies, right? Yes. Because you were rereading this and also thinking back on what you remember, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And it's fair to say four years, a little bit more than four years have gone by since the incident, right? Yes. Now, this statement was produced while you were at St. Vincent's Hospital, right? Yes. And when you had those wounds that we had seen in the pictures, right? Yes. So, and it's only one page, right? Yes. I'd like to talk to you about some of the inconsistencies, okay?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
First of all, you've testified today about what happened, right? Yes. Yes. And it's your version that Jacob was responsible for this, right? Yes. And we agree you came in through the garage. At least that's your testimony. You came in through the garage, right? Yes. And if we orient ourselves with the pictures, I believe you'd come into the kitchen. Would that be fair to say? Yes. Okay.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And today you testified that... Sabrina walked, your recollection is that Sabrina walked down to the bathroom and noticed her mother, right? Yes. And in your written statement, you had indicated me and Sabrina entered the bathroom. Would you agree with that?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I would just say if he doesn't, we'll refresh his recollection as we ordinarily would. I'm asking if he recalls. In your written statement, you said, when me and Sabrina entered the bathroom, we saw blood everywhere. Would you agree that you made that written statement? Yes, I do. And today you've testified that Sabrina was the one who entered the bathroom, not you. Fair to say? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, that would be before winter 2015. Oh, okay, so this is before you moved into the residence entirely. Yes. And then once you moved into 1368, you were living there essentially continuously until June 7th of 2016? Yes. On June 7th of 2016, do you recall what time you left the house that day? I believe it was 12 or 1 p.m., And where were you headed at that time? Work.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So that's one inconsistency, right? Yes. Okay. And then in your written statement, you stated that Quote, Jake started attacking me with the knife. I fell to the floor. You remember that? Yes. And today you've testified that Sabrina was the first one who was attacked by Jake. Would you agree with that? Yes. That's another inconsistency, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And after Jake attacked in your written statement, you say that Sabrina was attacked second, right? Yes. Yes. Okay, but the way you're remembering it today is that Sabrina was attacked first and then you were attacked second. Yes. I want to try to understand a little bit more clearly what happened in this, or what you say happened.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You have been dating Sabrina since at least, I think, December-ish of 2015, right? Yes. And the two of you met however you met, and you moved into her house fairly quickly, right? Yes. Is that because you had no place else to live, or you just immediately had a very close relationship? We had a close relationship.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the bedroom we saw the pictures of downstairs was where the two of you would reside, right? Yes. And you would agree that Sabrina's mother, he's son, did not want you living in the house. Would you agree with that? No. You don't agree with that? No. Well, she was upset that you were, when you moved into the house, wasn't she? No, she was not. Was she happy that you moved into the house?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She was indifferent. But you weren't working when you moved in, right? No. Meaning, correct, you didn't have a job when you first moved in, right? Yes. And no source of income when you moved into the house, right? Yes. Sabrina was working. She was at Perkins, right? Yes. So you're not working. Sabrina is working.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you're living in the house. Yes. And so to the extent you're eating and having shelter, that's because it's being provided to you within that home, right? Yes. But it's your testimony that he-son, or Sonny as we'll call her, was indifferent to that? Yes. Okay. You didn't have any conflict with her about moving in and eating their food and living off them? No.
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Is it your testimony that Sonny liked you? Yes. Okay. Now, you did have a knife on you, right? Yes. Why did you carry a knife with you? I used them at work. You worked at Burger King? Yes. Okay. And we saw a picture of that knife. Looks like a black folding knife, fair to say? Yes. Is that a work-issued knife?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you would carry that at Burger King while you worked? Yes. And then you would carry it in your pocket after you left Burger King? Yes. What was your job at Burger King? I did everything. Cook burgers?
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Cook burgers, take orders, make the food, take out the garbage.
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And which of those jobs did you require the knife for? Breaking down boxes. Okay, so if you had to break down a box, you had a knife for that? Yeah. And would you agree that this knife has a blade, right? We can't see it in the picture, but there would be a blade in there, right? Yes. And would you agree you also carry that knife with you for protection if you need it?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. You didn't just get the knife for purposes of breaking down boxes at Burger King, right? Yeah. Right? The knife has other purposes if you need it, right? Yes. If someone attacks you, you have a knife available to repel the attack.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Now, in the six months or so that you had been at this house, you never once saw Jake there, right? No, I did not. And it would be completely unexpected to see Jake in the house that night, right? Yes. There's no reason for him to be there. Yes. No conflict had happened earlier that day that would cause him to be there?
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Sabrina picked you up from work and you guys went to Walmart to get some food, right? Yes. So in terms of... In terms of what you were doing, it was as uneventful of an evening as you can imagine, right? Yes. Similarly, there had been no conflict between Jacob and Sonny.
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So you weren't aware of any conflict between the two of them where there was bad blood between him and Sonny?
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No, there was none.
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And again, during the six or seven months, you never once saw Jacob at house, right? Until you say the night of the stabbing. Correct. Now... And just so we're clear, you did have a cell phone at that time, right? Yes. And the police took that cell phone and did whatever they did with it, right? Yes. In fact, you gave permission for them to analyze it if they wanted, right? Yes. Okay.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that is the Burger King? Yes. Where was that Burger King located? In Howard. And so when you went to work, 12 or 1, how long were you supposed to work that day? I believe I was supposed to be there until 9 or 10. How did you get to work?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you had had that phone for maybe a month or so, or a month or two months before this incident, would that be fair to say? Yes. And that phone would contain text messages, phone call history, things like that? Yes. And you also had a Facebook account, right? Yes. Would you agree with me that in your phone, you would access YouTube from your phone? Yes.
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Would you agree with me that the same day of this incident, you searched on YouTube? It's up to you. We can approach first, and if you want to excuse the jury, we can. All right.
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So I think for purposes of the record, there's a relevance objection. I'm going to overrule the objection.
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My question for you was whether you were able to access YouTube also from your phone, right? Yes. And you would do that periodically? Yes. And the same day of this stabbing, you had searched the phrase famous last words. Would you agree with that? Yes. In fact, that was the last thing you searched right before the stabbing? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you were asked about that by the district attorney's office in preparation for this trial, weren't you? Yes. And you told them that it's a music video that you like. Yes. Called Famous Last Words. Yes, it is a musical group. What's the video about?
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I don't recall.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Wait for a moment, sir.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He said he doesn't recall.
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Well, I'm just going to sustain the objection, but is there any additional questions you intend to ask on that issue? No.
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Then I don't think I need to worry about the answer. It's already in the record. All right.
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Now, you were... So we've already talked about Exhibit 2, which is your written statement, right? Yes. Which was written by law enforcement because you weren't in a position to write this, right? Yes. And you were also interviewed... On video, you remember when they filmed you and interviewed you? I do not. Are you aware as you sit here today that you were video filmed as you made a statement?
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Yes. You know that, right? Yes. And you know that because the state and the prosecutors have shown you your video to show you what you said, right? Or is that not accurate? That is not accurate. Okay. How do you know you were filmed? How do you know you were filmed? Did somebody provide you a copy of your tape?
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No, but I was informed. By who? I believe Lieutenant Levin Lennon.
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Sabrina drove me.
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Okay. And he's here in court at the end of the prosecutor's table with the shaved head, right? Yes. Okay. Did you watch that tape with him in preparation for your testimony? No. No. No? He just told you that there was one, right? Yes. Okay. So you talked about an event at Walmart where you had run into Jacob at some point before this, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have a car at that time? No. Was it typical for Sabrina to bring you to and from work? Yes. And you think you were supposed to work until about 9 p.m. that night? Yes. Did you end up working until 9 p.m.? No, I was released early. Is that typical that you would occasionally get released early? No. Do you know what the reason was on that particular day? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
But Sabrina never told you that Jacob would want to hurt her, right?
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No, she did not.
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She never said Jacob was dangerous? No.
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No, I don't believe so.
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That's something you would have remembered if she had told you that, right? Yes. So she never says he's dangerous, never says he'd want to hurt her, but you did have conversations about him because you saw him at Walmart, right? Yes. And that was about a month or so before the incident? Yes. During this stabbing event, it's your testimony that Jacob... is the one who did this, right?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's your testimony? Yes. And that he didn't say anything before or after the attack, right? Yes. No words?
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No words at all.
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And I thought, correct me if I'm wrong, I thought that you described how his face looked. Didn't they ask you how his face looked?
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And you said plain, right? Yes. Would another word for that be expressionless? Yes. Meaning... didn't look angry, you couldn't get any read out of it, could you? Correct. Nor are there any words being said, so that doesn't help you at all either, right? Correct. And let's go with what you remember today in your testimony, is that the initial confrontation happens in the kitchen area, right? Yes.
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Which it's either Sabrina first or you first, depending on the written statement or today's testimony, right? Right. Yes. But eventually, all three of you make it to the garage, right? Yes. And you first, right? You were the first one to go in the garage. Yes. And it's your testimony. Jacob just jumped out of the laundry room unexpectedly and started attacking Sabrina, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You got into the garage. Yes. And then... Didn't keep running outside the home, right? Correct. Just stayed in the garage until Sabrina and Jake came out the door. Yes. And I'm trying to understand how it unfolded. You're watching as the two of them are struggling coming down those steps, right? Yes. And that's when you grabbed that shovel that we saw and you hit Jacob in the head with the shovel.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's your testimony? Yes. And in fact... Jacob fell to the ground, isn't that true? Yes. And Sabrina got on top of him? I don't believe so. So Jacob's on the ground and Sabrina is standing? I believe she was on the ground as well. And it's your testimony that you've, at this point, already been stabbed through the arm, right? Yes. And which arm were you stabbed in? This one. Okay. So then...
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You run into the kitchen and you lock Sabrina and Jacob in the garage?
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No. I did not lock the door.
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Okay. You ran in and just closed the door?
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And left them out there? Yes. Why, if you made it to the garage, why didn't you just keep running out of the house? I don't recall. You would have had to have run under this version... Jacob and Sabrina come down those stops. They're fighting right there in front of the stairs. You would have had to have run right past them to go back through the door into the kitchen. Is that correct?
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And that's what you believe you did? Yes. And in fact, the garage door was even open at that time, wasn't it? I do not believe it was. No. You go back inside, it's your testimony you don't lock that door, but you run down the hallway and you go into Heason's bedroom, right? Yes. And you lock that door? Yes. And then you lock the bathroom door also? Yes.
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Did you have plans after work that night?
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So now you've barricaded yourself behind two more locked doors, right? Yes. Now... You've identified Mr. Kerr here in court today when we all removed our masks, right? Yes. And you were close enough, you say, to see his face. You said he did the stabbing, right? Yes. You told the police that the person had shoulder-length hair. Do you agree with that? Yes.
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Yes, we were going to have a friend come over and watch some TV and movies.
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And that the person was not wearing any mask at all, right? Yes. Okay. No attempt to conceal one's face whatsoever? Correct. And no facial hair, right? Correct. No, he had facial hair. Okay, do you remember facial hair? Yes. Were you present in court when your 911 call was played? No, I was not. Have you had a chance to listen to your 911 call prior to your testimony? Yes.
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You would agree that in the 911 call, you were asked whether there was any facial hair and you said, not that I saw? I do not recall. And you don't remember what you said in that call, right? No. What do you mean? About facial hair. You don't recall what you said? No. But that 911 call is you trying to describe everything you're seeing at the time, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you say we, you mean you and Sabrina? Yes. Do you know what either Sabrina and Sonny's plans were for that day? No, I do not. Was Sabrina working at that time? I believe so. Where was she working? Perkins. Do you know if Sonny had a job? I do not think so. So what time did you actually get off of work that day? I believe 7.30. And how did you leave work that day? Sabrina picked me up.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is it your testimony that you believe you were stabbed in the kitchen area? That's where you remember being stabbed? Yes. Before you went into the garage area, right? Yes. And did you ever... You had your knife in your pocket this whole time, right? Yes. And it's your testimony you never utilized that knife in any way, right? Correct. Why didn't you pull the knife out to fend off the perpetrator?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I didn't think about it. When you were... One minute, please, Your Honor. I want to just ask a few more questions, touch on a couple other things with you, sir. Going back to Sonny, the mother, liking you... Are you aware that Sabrina had a sister, Sarah May? Yes. And did you have contact and interaction with Sarah May?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Not that I can recall.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you aware of the mother's boyfriend, Raymond? Is that somebody you were familiar with? Yes. Sonny had a boyfriend named Raymond, right? Yes. And were you... Were you aware of anything Sonny had said to Raymond about not liking you?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Going to the interview you did with the police at the hospital, you would agree that your written statement is a much shorter version than what was discussed over the 30 minutes or so that you talked to the officers, right? Yes. In other words, you were getting medical treatment and they were present talking to you during that time, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They were trying to understand what you believe happened, what you saw in the house, right? That was the whole point of the questioning? Yes. And do you remember an officer named Officer Ehrenstein? Is that somebody that you're familiar with? I do not recall, no. Do you know the names of the officers who were interviewing you? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Would you agree that you told the officers that the last time you saw Sabrina, she was in the garage on top of Jacob holding him down? Do you remember telling the officers that? No, I do not. As you sit here today, it's your recollection that she wasn't holding him down, he was just down on the ground, and that's when you ran from the garage? Correct. If he had a shovel...
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
and you had knocked him down to the ground, why would you just run into the house and not keep hitting the person? I don't know. That's all. Thank you.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Any redirects?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You were asked about the garage door and whether that garage door was open or closed. When you recall going out to the garage to get the shovel, do you believe the garage door was open or closed at that point? Closed. Do you recall actually closing it or someone closing the garage door when you came in? Yes. And do you know who did that? I believe I pushed the button to close it.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the button to open and close the door, where is that located? Right next to the door to the kitchen from the garage. Did you think about opening that door and running out before you went and grabbed the shovel? No, I did not. What was your purpose in grabbing the shovel? To fight.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And this was sort of described by defense as, well, you've got the shovel and you're standing over there in the corner just watching them struggle. I mean, was this a long period of time that you're standing there with the shovel before they come out the door? No. Is it fair to say that, in fact, all of this is happening very quickly? Yes. Is it a chaotic scene? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you do recall grabbing the shovel on the side of the garage, and then about how quickly after you went and grabbed the shovel, did Jacob and Sabrina come out of the garage? I'd say about five or ten seconds. So fairly quickly, they come right out? Yes. And then likewise, the physical struggle, the you striking Jacob and then running back in the house, does that happen fairly quickly? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It's just a general question. Are there things you would have done differently if you could do this all over again and you had the time to reason your way through how to respond to this attack? Absolutely. It's fair to say at that time this was just chaos and you just did what was on instinct? Yes. Again, Mr. Cotton showed you a brief written statement. It was one page, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what car was Sabrina driving? Her vehicle. And what kind of car was that, do you remember? Chevy Cobalt. I'm going to direct your attention back to Exhibit 1B1. Do you see that vehicle in the photograph? Yes. There's only one vehicle in the photograph, is that fair to say? Yes. So it's the vehicle parked in the driveway? Yes. Where did you go after Sabrina picked you up from work?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is it fair to say that everything that happened that night cannot really fairly be encapsulated in one page? Correct. Correct. And he talked to you about some of the inconsistencies, right? He talked to you about who got stabbed first, whether both of you went over to the bathroom to see his son in the bathroom.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In your mind, is the big picture, the vast majority of what happened, has that been relatively consistent throughout this? Yes. Any questions, Your Honor? I don't know that I let him. I asked if it was, and he could say yes or no.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't think that was a leading question. I'm going to overrule the objection.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you know if in every one of your statements you said Mr. K.R. jumped out of the laundry room and attacked you? I believe so, yes. The weapon that Mr. K.R. used, do you know if that was consistent in all of your statements? Yes, I believe so. Can you tell us a little bit about that knife? Do you remember the knife itself? Yes, I believe it was a chef's knife.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In terms of the size of the knife, do you remember any of the size of the knife? About that big. Are you familiar with a standard kitchen knife set? Yes. Would this be one of the small knives or one of the large knives? One of the large knives. As it compares to your folding knife, was it bigger or smaller?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Much bigger.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you recall if in every one of your statements you remember that you struck Mr. K with a shovel? Yes. Do you recall if in every one of your statements that... happened in the garage? Yes. Is it possible that in one of the statements that wasn't actually consistent? I do not believe so. As you sit here today, where did that contact take place? In the garage.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In every one of your statements, do you describe Mr. Kerr as the person who did this? Yes. Is there any doubt in your mind that Mr. Kerr is the person who stabbed you and Sabrina? No. And you saw him stab Sabrina with your own eyes? Correct. Multiple times? Correct.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Clearly you saw him stab yourself? Yes. Again, these are leading questions I'm objecting because he's giving the answer.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Can you rephrase the question?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'll withdraw that question. At any point in time, did you see anyone else in the house other than Mr. Kher, Sabrina, and Issa? No. And to be clear, I'm talking about on the evening of June 7th, 2016. Correct. Before law enforcement arrived. Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No further questions, right?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Any requests?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Are you aware that Sabrina's body was eventually found next to the house? Are you aware of that? Yes. Outside of the garage, right? Yes. So in terms of the garage doors, it must have been open for Sabrina to get out of the garage, right?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. Okay. That's all. Do you know when that garage door became open? I do not know. It's your testimony here today that the garage door was... Do you recall when you were in the garage having contact with Mr. K or the shovel, do you believe it was open or closed? Closed. Nothing further.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Chankita is going to start off by asking you what is your current occupation?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I am a forensic anthropologist as my occupation. I am currently the chief medical examiner of Dane, Rock, Brown, Door in Oconto counties of Wisconsin.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranquita, I'm going to go back and ask you some questions then. I'm at the June 9th, 2016, during the morning hours. Did you have an opportunity to perform an autopsy on Sabrina Teague? Yes, I did. Approximate time of the autopsy, it looks like 8.46 AM. I believe that's when we started. When you do an autopsy, do you have a certain
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
a protocol, a way you like to go through it every time so you're consistent? I do. And... Could you tell the jury, is there a certain way that you perform Sabrina Teague's exam? For example, do you first look at the external part of the body and then move to internal? How kind of can you just tell them in general the procedure you used before we go into specifics?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course, very generally. We generally begin with an examination of the external aspect of the body within the body bag or the container to document whatever writing or whatever identification is present on the outside of the bag to make sure that the security seal that is sealing the bag is intact. and to make sure that any writing is identified and documented.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The bag is opened, and then we begin the external examination of the body. In forensic pathology, the external examination of the body is just as critical as the internal portion of the body. I'm looking at the external aspect of the body to document any injuries, any features of the body, any trauma. I'm also photographing, measuring, and documenting with scale. I collect external evidences
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I do swabs for DNA. I collect specimens for toxicology. I try to see if there's any kind of residue that might give me an indicator of who may have committed this or who may have done this. We may also take x-rays as well at this point, especially if there's a kind of penetrating injury.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Once all that is done, I then proceed to the internal portion of the autopsy examination, which is what most people think about when they think about an autopsy. The internal portion of an autopsy examination is the surgical evaluation of the organ systems of the body to see what has been injured and what disease processes may be present.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After you went through step by step the autopsy of Sabrina Teague, do you eventually compile all the information you received, notes and your observations and put it into a report?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, I do. The report is composed of not only the summary of the findings, but also the diagrams and the photographs that are created as, that accompany the report. Okay.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did I ask the court's continuing permission to approach during his testimony?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, you may.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you for your documents labeled exhibit number 10. You just peruse the document as you're doing, Doctor, and then I have a couple questions for you. Exhibit number 10, could you indicate to the jury what is exhibit 10?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Exhibit number 10 is a copy of the report that was generated by our office on the death of Sabrina Teague. It includes the autopsy report, the notes that were generated during the process of making the report, the diagrams from the report, the toxicology report, about the people in attendance, and those sorts of documents.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what happened after you left Walmart? We went home. And did you go anywhere else in between, from leaving work, Walmart, and then home? No. And do you know about what time you got back to 1368 Riverdale Drive? About 7.50. Eight. Fifty or eight? Yes. When you arrived home, where did she park the car? In the driveway, right in front of the garage door.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranchitti, I'd like to then just begin to go through some of the items noted in your report of the autopsy of Sabrina Teague. What I'd like to do is to Start from the beginning. I'd like to go through the final diagnosis. It's listed on pages 1 and 2 of the autopsy report. And just chronologically go through this.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm going to start then by looking at the first one listed on your report, stab wounds. First, stab wounds, I want you to list the stab wounds you've noted to the head of Sabrina Teague.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I noted two stab wounds to the head of Sabrina Teague. The first was located on the left cheek. This went deeply into the left cheek. It went through the skin, soft tissues, and muscles of the left cheek. It hit the left parotid gland, which is one of the salivary glands in the cheek, and then went into the mouth and struck her tongue.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And could you... indicate the other stab wound to the head.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's correct. There was another stab wound to the chin. This went into the skin and soft tissues of the chin and struck the mandible or the jaw.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranchito, what I'm showing you on the screen has been marked 1M, number 1, as far as exhibit. A particular photograph that's up on the screen, would you indicate, describe what it is, Dr.?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When I perform an autopsy, I try to document, in as many different ways as I can, the features that I'm seeing of the body, in order to convey to the reader what I'm seeing both in diagram form, in measurements, but also in photographs. In this case, this is an overhead view of the decedent Sabrina Antique.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She has a number of sharp force injuries, which are depicted in this photograph, and I've placed a small label next to each of the injuries to help categorize them or list them in sequence as we describe them. In this case... If I may? Yes. The stab wound that we first described, or stab wound A, is located on her left cheek.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is the stab wound that went through the left cheek, went through the left parotid gland, and went into her tongue. Stab wound B, the next one going down, is located on her chin. This went through the skin, the soft tissues, and hit the mandible, or the jaw, of Sabrina Teague.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, and I'd like to continue in your final diagnosis of injuries to Sabrina Teague, going through the injuries to her torso.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As we go down to the neck stab wound, there was a stab wound of the base of the anterior neck. This was stab wound C. This was a superficial stab wound. It went into the skin, the soft tissues, but it didn't go very deeply into the chest cavity. Stab wound D. Actually, I believe this was C. I believe this is stab wound D. This one went into the chest just below the left clavicle.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is also a superficial stab wound. Okay. Superficial, yeah, stab wound E is going into the upper aspect of the right side of the chest below the right clavicle. And this was a very deep stab wound. The stab wound went through the right ribs, two and three, on the right side. The stab wound also went through the right lung.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The stab wound hit the pericardial sac, which is a membrane sac that surrounds the heart. And the stab wound hit the aorta, which is the largest artery in the body. This was a fairly deep and significant stab wound. The next stab wound going down is directly overlying the sternum. This baboon hits the sternum, the left rib number four. It hits the pericardial sac.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Again, that's the sac that surrounds and protects the heart. And then it hit the heart as well, striking the decedent in the right ventricle. This was also a very deep, very life-threatening stab wound. We had a stab wound. The last stab wound in the front of the body is stab wound G. This entered the midline of the upper aspect of the abdomen. This stab wound hit the decedent's diaphragm.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This hit the left lobe of her liver, and it hits the omentum, which is a structure which protects and covers the intestinal tract.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I can then show you another photograph, Doctor, and it's 1M2. It would be a little easier, I think, to see C and D, so I apologize for that.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This stab wound is a close-up of the area of the decedent's head and neck. You can see very nicely stab wound A, stab wound B, stab wound C, E, E, and F. Again, stab wounds C and D are very superficial. Stab wound A goes through the cheek into the mouth. Stab wound B hits your jaw. Stab wound E goes into the torso, hits ribs, hits the lung, hits the pericardial sac and the aorta.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So is it consistent with the photograph that's being displayed that we previously addressed? Yes. Is that typically where Sabrina would park? Yes. Did Sonny have a vehicle? Yes. What kind of vehicle was that? A Chevy HHR. When you arrived home, was that vehicle at the residence? Yes. Where was it? In the garage. Do you know which stall of those three stalls? The middle stall.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Stab wound F goes through the sternum, through the ribs, through the pericardial sac, and into the heart.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm going to continue with going through different areas on her body. I'm going to go to stab wounds on the back area. So I'm going to show the next picture, which is 1M3.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Stab wound H, the higher up one, is described as a stab wound on the left side of the upper aspect of the back. This stab wound goes to the skin, soft tissues, and muscle, but doesn't penetrate into the chest cavity. Stab wound I also goes through the skin, soft tissues, and muscle of the right side of the middle aspect of the back.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So if you divide that back down the midline, and you divide in upper, middle, and lower back, this is the right side of the middle aspect of the back. This is the left side of the upper aspect of the back. So stab wound I goes through the skin, soft tissues, and muscle, but doesn't penetrate into the chest cavity.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Stab wound J is described as a stab wound of the left side of the lower aspect of the back. This is a fairly deep stab wound. This goes through the thick skin, soft tissues, and muscle. This goes through the left side of the diaphragm, and this stab wound injures the left kidney.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Because we're on this particular photograph, doctor, this 1M3, and of course we can see another injury to Ms. Teague's left side of her neck. Since the photo's up there, can we talk a little bit about that particular injury?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course. This is an incised wound here on the posterior and lateral aspect of Sabrina Teague's neck. This is cutting into the underlying subcutaneous soft tissue. So it's very long on the skin surface, but it's just going to the level of the subcutaneous fat. This is an incised wound, or a cut, into the back and side of Sabrina Teague's neck.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe, Dr. Tranquilla, that we've covered on your final diagnosis all the different stab wounds listed to the head and torso, the different injuries you noted to Sabrina Teague. I'd like to kind of go to page two of your complete report in exhibit 10, where you start to list some incised wounds. I know you described what an incised wound is, longer on the surface rather than deeper.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Could we list some of those for the jury that you observed on Sabrina T?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course. So again, we described incised wounds as longer on the skin surface and they are deep into the body. Another way to think about them as cuts as opposed to stabs. Sabrina Teague had about five incised wounds. And the first was on the right side of the underside of her chin.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And this was a superficial cut, but it was an evidence of sharp force trauma being applied, or an object with a sharp edge being applied to the right side of the underside of her chin. We showed one of the other ones earlier as well, the incised wound on the back and left side of Sabrina Teague's neck. This was a long incised wound or long cut that just penetrated to the level of the soft tissue.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition, Sabrina Teague had an incised wound. on the dorsal surface of her left forearm. She had a cut on the dorsal surface of the forearm from the elbow, the forearm we consider from the elbow to the wrist, and she had a cut on the dorsal surface of the forearm. Also, she had a cut on the volar or palmar aspect of the left thumb. That's A, B, C, and D. C and D are super
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you think that vehicle was in the middle stall when you arrived? Yes. Were there any other vehicles on scene that you observed? No. May I ask you if you can recall specifically how you entered the home that night? He went in through the garage and the side door to the garage. So you walked in the garage door, and then is there an entryway from the garage into the home? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We also have the incised wound, that superficial inside of the wound of the underside of the chin is depicted in that diagram as well. Also there are abrasions or scrapes or scratches of the left side of the seat's forehead and the chin also. Also the incised wound of the posterior aspect of the left side of the neck, which we saw earlier in the other photograph as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
These are diagrams of the decedent's hands, both the dorsal or knuckle side and the palmar sides as well, both the left and the right hands. The decedent had an abrasion on the dorsal aspect of the proximal phalange of the right index finger. This is the incised wound on the palmar aspect of the thumb of the left hand, or cut on the palmar aspect of the thumb of the left hand.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition, shed a small hematoma or blood blister on the palmar aspect of the ring finger of the left hand.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Again, continuing with your report, Exhibit 10, after you listed the incised wounds, you have a section that lists blunt force trauma, head, torso, and extremities. I'd like to see if we could just go through those injuries you observed on Sabrina Teague's body.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course, once again, blunt force trauma is trauma that is caused by impacting or being impacted by an object that doesn't have a sharp force, a sharp edge. In other words, a blunt surface. This can be as broad as anything from a fist, a foot, or a door, or a wall, or a tree. Basically, it's something that doesn't have a blunt force edge.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Sometimes these impacts can leave a pattern, but many times they don't. We try to categorize them in abrasions, superficial scrapes or scratches of the skin, contusions, where the skin is intact but we have bleeding underneath the skin surface, or a bruise, or lacerations. Laceration are tears or rips in the skin caused by the application of blood force.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In her case, she had abrasions and contusions, so scrapes and bruises. Starting with the head, We saw that she had a linear scrape or scratch on the upper aspect of the left side of the forehead. She also had another abrasion on the right side of the chin. And she had another abrasion on the underside of the chin as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Can you tell us how that happened? Meet me. And did you start a relationship with her? Yes. Do you know about what time, what year you began that relationship with Sabrina? December 2015. And how did your relationship progress with Sabrina?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
On the torso, she had an abrasion on the midline of the upper aspect of the back. So the upper back at the middle of the back. And she had two abrasions of the posterior aspect or back of the left hip. Now, these abrasions had a possible pattern. They were crescent-shaped, or like the shape of a crescent moon. These are very consistent or suggestive of fingernail scratches into the skin.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She had a small contusion, or that blood blister, of the palmar aspect of her left hand. I'm sorry, the palmar aspect of the left index finger, left wing finger. She had an abrasion or scratch on the dorsal aspect of the proximal phalange of the right ring finger. And then she had a number of abrasions on the left thigh, left leg, and left ankle.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then she had additional abrasions on the right thigh, right knee, right leg, and right foot.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Trinke, the only one I see we really didn't cover, and there's quite a few, are... Under the blunt force trauma section head, oh, there's one contusion. I apologize.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Could you please list that?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So in addition to the abrasions and the contusion described in the left hand, there was also another contusion on the left side of the frontal scalp. So the frontal scalp covers from just above the ear forward, and there was a contusion on the left side of the frontal scalp, or bruise.
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And that's the entryway that you took? Yes. Was that typical? Yes. Did you utilize the front door often? No. When you arrived through the garage, did you notice anything unusual upon entering the residence? Yes, there was a bottle of water spilled on the floor. Well, I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B2.
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Dr. Tranchita, after completing your autopsy of Sabrina Teague and putting together, starting to prepare your report, do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty it's a cause of death of Sabrina Teague?
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What is that?
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To a reasonable degree of medical certainty, I believe that the cause of death of Sabrina Teague is the stab wounds of the torso, as these penetrated deeply into the body, perforating her lung, her aorta, and her heart, her diaphragm, her liver. These were significant life-threatening injuries, causing collapse of her lung, significant internal hemorrhaging, and ultimately death.
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Now to my final question then. Based on a reasonable degree of medical certainty, do you have an opinion as to the manner of death for Sabrina Teague?
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What is that opinion, Doctor?
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To a reasonable degree of medical certainty, I believe that the manner of death for Sabrina Teague is homicide.
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Dr. Trinchita, on the same date that you completed Sabrina Teague's autopsy, did you have an opportunity to perform an autopsy in the body of his son Teague as well? Yes, I did. And on that date, June 9, 2016, do you believe it was in the afternoon hours that you completed the autopsy for Ms. Heesun Teague? Yes, I did.
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I'm going to show you, Doctor, I'd like to go through the same procedure that we did for Suprena Teague's autopsy for Heesun Teague. I'll show you what's been marked instead of number 11. through that document. Dr. Trinchini, did you have a chance to look through Exhibit 11?
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Yes, I did.
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Is that a copy of your autopsy report involving Isantig?
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Yes, it is.
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I'd like to go through again the same procedure. I'm going to begin on page 1, where it lists the final diagnosis involving the autopsy of Isantig. The very first category lists stab wounds, lists two of them. I'd like to start with those and go through injury by injury.
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Peace and Teague had a number of different modalities of injuries or types of injuries. The first they listed in the list of final diagnoses were her stab wounds. She had two stab wounds. The first was of her head. This struck the left temporal scalp. It went through the left temporal muscle or the muscle that sits on the left temporal scalp. And it went into the left temporal bone.
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It's another photograph, and I'm going to ask you to identify that photograph. That is the garage entrance. You'll notice on that garage entrance there appears to be quite a lot of chaos, blood evidence, things of that nature. Is that there when you arrived at the residence? Objection.
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It did not penetrate through the temporal bone, however. The second stab wound was of her torso. This stab wound struck her in her left breast. This went through the left fourth rib. This went through the pericardial sac, that fibrous sac that protects the heart. And then it went into the heart, stabbing her in the heart, specifically the right ventricle.
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And Dr. Trinkita, I'm going to take a couple steps back. Did you... Do the same protocol or procedure that you did with Sabrina Teague's autopsy with his son. By that, I mean going to an external exam after you opened up the bag where her body was located, and then also go to an internal exam as well.
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That is correct.
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Now, again, doctor, those are the two injuries you listed for stab wounds. The next section is Roman numeral number two. endless incised wounds to Hisantig. Is that correct? That is correct. Could we go through those and indicate to the jury the incised wounds that you located on Hisantig's body?
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Of course. So once again, incised wounds are cuts. They're sharp force injuries that are longer on the skin surface than deep into the body. Hisantig had five incised wounds or five cuts. The first was of her left ear. This incised wound amputated or cut off the superior aspect of her left ear or the upper part of her left ear. She had another incised wound or cut on the left side of the forehead.
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She had another incised wound or cut on the left cheek. And then she had another incised wound or cut on the right jawline.
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Doctor, I would like to... continue and just go through the different injuries before I start to show pictures because I think when I start to show the photographs, there's going to be a combination of the different injuries, whether they're incised wounds or stab wounds, kind of together in blunt force trauma.
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So I'm going to ask if we could just continue as in your report, the final diagnosis after incised wounds where it says compression of neck.
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Yes, sir. He, Santee, had injuries of the neck consistent with compression of the neck. I believe that there was both ligature, or using a cord, and manual compression of the neck, or using of the hands. A ligature was recovered from around Heeson Teague's neck, and there was a ligature furrow that was imprinted upon the skin of Heeson Teague's neck.
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In addition to these external injuries, this ligature furrow that was present on the neck There were also abrasions as well. But deeper into the neck structures, there were areas of muscular hemorrhage deep into the neck. This is very consistent with compression by fingertips or application of blunt force trauma to cause bruising and hemorrhage of the deep structures of the neck.
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So there was both ligature and manual strangulation of the neck. As a consequence of this, there were hemorrhages in the decedent's eyes, or petechial hemorrhages and vulvar hemorrhages.
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Can you rephrase the question? Okay.
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Essentially, when you apply pressure to the blood vessels in the neck, this causes the blood vessels in the eyes and the conjunctiva around the eyes to burst, causing hemorrhages in the soft tissues around the eyes.
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Dr. Tranchita, I'd like to see if you'd just define a couple of terms, a couple of words. Ligature and furrow.
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There appear to be a lot of stains on the floor. There's a shovel tipped over. There are stains on the wall. Did you observe those stains and the shovel on the floor when you first entered the residence? No. I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B3. Can you identify that photograph? Yes, that is the kitchen and dining room. Of the residence at 1368? Yes.
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A ligature furrow, a ligature is a rope or cord. You want to think of a ligature as, from the Latin word ligare, something to tie. So anything that is a cord or a rope can be a ligature. A furrow is an indentation or impression or crushing injury of the neck such that a furrow is left behind in the skin after you remove the ligature.
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The next section in your final diagnosis lists blunt force trauma of the head, torso, and extremities. I'd like to see if we can go through those injuries one by one.
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Sabrina, I'm sorry, Heeson Teague had abrasions. contusions and lacerations of her head, torso, and extremities, very many of them. In addition, many of these were patterned injuries. In other words, impacts to the tissues of the body that left an imprint behind that we could describe to give some indication as to what instrument may have caused these injuries.
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In addition to these external injuries, she had diffuse subgalial hemorrhage of her head. The galia is the soft tissue that sits on your head, under your scalp, but over your skull. This was diffusely hemorrhagic. In other words, it was all full of blood. She had subarachnoid hemorrhage over the brain. The surface of the brain is called the arachnoid membrane.
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When the brain is injured, it can bleed. And this is called subarachnoid hemorrhage. So there was hemorrhage all over the surface of the brain on this membrane that surrounds and protects the brain. In addition, there was injury to the brain surface itself, the brain itself, not just the membrane covering the brain, but there were contusions of the cerebral surface.
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or cerebral contusions, contusions of the brain. There were lacerations and contusions, in other words, tears and bruising of the oral mucosa, or the inner aspects of both lips, indicative of blows of the lips. She had a number of fractures, including the frontal bone, including the left parietal bone, the nasal bones, and the mandible, or jaw. She had fractures of the sternum.
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She had fractures of multiple ribs on both sides. She had a fracture of the cervical spine, or the neck was fractured. She had a fracture of the left radius bone, so one of the bones in her forearm. She had fractures of bones in her metacarpal bones, or the bones of the hands, of the left and right hands.
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And she had fractures of the phalangeal bones, or the first section of each finger, of the left ring finger, left thumb, and right little finger. She also had a subbundle hematoma, or bleeding underneath the toenail, of the left third toe.
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One of the items listed, it says in item H, hemoaspiration. What does that term mean?
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Hemoaspiration comes from hemo for blood and aspiration, aspirating or inhaling. Essentially, as a result of all these injuries to her head, she was bleeding into her airway, bleeding into the nose, bleeding to the sinuses, bleeding into the mouth. And she was inhaling this blood, so the blood was going into her airway.
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So she was essentially aspirating or drowning in her own blood.
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This is a document, an anatomical document diagram of the anterior and posterior surfaces of the female bodies. is that the majority of injuries are going to be depicted in another diagram, just because there are so many injuries in the head that I'm unable to put them all in the sense of this diagram.
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However, in this diagram, I'm still able to show the two stab wounds, which are the first injuries that we described. The stab wound of the left pearl scalp, and this is located just behind the left ear. This is the one that's going through the ribs, through the pericardial sac, and into the heart.
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In addition, in the remainder of the body and extremity diagrams, again, I put circles around the hands just to depict that there are so many injuries of the hands that I'm unable to include them in this diagram just for size and space. But elsewhere, I'm trying to show the injuries that are present on the torso, the injuries that are present on the arms.
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bilateral upper extremities, and the injuries that are present in bilateral lower extremities as well.
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Dr. Tranchita, when you go to your report, starting on page 6 of exhibit 11, It goes through, there's a lot of them, the abrasions from the head and neck. I wonder if you could just maybe list, doctor, the number of abrasions to the head or neck of He-San Teague that were observed.
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And there's a door in the back in the middle of that. Can you identify what that door is? That leads to the laundry room. And then there's a door to the right of that. What is that door? That is the garage door. And is that the door that you entered when you came into the house that evening on June 7th? Yes. Do you recall if the door to the laundry room was open or closed when you arrived? Closed.
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There are almost two pages of injuries of the head and neck of He-San Teague. There are at least 14 separate abrasions. There are 14 separate contusions. There are at least 29 separate lacerations. Then we go into the internal injuries of his fatigue.
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Dr. Tranchito, there are some places in your report, for example, on page 6, I'm going to pick one here, Under blunt force trauma, under head and neck, you'll have like number three, you'll say crescentic abrasion. And I think you told the jury earlier, crescentic means like a crescent moon. Correct.
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What did you indicate that that can help you determine when there's an injury like an abrasion that's crescentic?
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When we examine injuries, as a forensic pathologist, I'm trying to determine if there's any patterns or features of the injuries that can help investigators possibly identify a weapon that could be at the scene or recovered subsequently that might match the pattern of the injury that's created.
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So a crescent-shaped injury is often very helpful because it indicates an object with some sort of rounded edge or a surface with some sort of rounded edge. In this case, there were a number of injuries that were present that had this crescentic pattern or circular pattern of the body.
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So I was able to give the investigators, you may want to look for an object or an instrument that has a rounded or crescent-shaped edge.
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Doctor, I'd like to continue in your report to page 8, where you again discuss the torso. And I'm wondering if you could just list the number of abrasions to His Antiques' torso.
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There were eight separate abrasions of His Antiques' torso. Again, many of these had patterned appearances, which I was able to relay to the investigators.
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The same crescentic pattern?
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Correct. And some had a more circular appearance, indicating an entire circular surface.
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Contusions to the torso? Approximately how many can you see in your report to his body?
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There were at least 16 separate contusions or bruises to the torso.
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It does list in your report the different fractures of the ribs, but I think you already discussed those earlier. On page 9, at the very bottom, it says left upper extremity. Left upper extremity, is that just the left arm?
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Absolutely. Going from the left shoulder to the left hand. Entire left upper extremity.
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Would you indicate on Heeson Teague's body, on her left upper extremity, approximate number of abrasions?
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She had seven separate abrasions on her left upper extremity.
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And then contusions?
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Contusions, there were... four separate contusions. However, one of them I want to emphasize is fairly extensive. It involves the entire posterior aspect of the left elbow, the dorsal aspect of the left arm, the left wrist, the left hand, and the left fingers. So it's not just one focal bruise. The entire area is diffusely bruised.
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And Dr. Tranchito, why do you describe that one as significant? Just because of the area damage, the large area?
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Correct. By the numbers, I don't want to convey. I think when most people think of a bruise, you tend to think of a small focus of bruising. By full bruising, I just mean number, not size. This bruise that was confluent or diffusely covering the left forearm, left elbow, left hand is one very large bruise.
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And if we continue with the left upper extremity, the number of lacerations to the upper extremity or arm?
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What kind of door is the door to the laundry room? Sliding door. Is it typical for that door to be closed? No. Did you notice it when you initially came in the residence that it was closed? No. You'll also see some staining on the floor and what appears to be some disruption throughout the kitchen. Do you know, was that staining present when you initially entered the residence that night? No.
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there were three separate lacerations or tears or rips of the skin of the left upper extremity.
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Again, next in your report, I think you've already covered the fractures. Could you list on the right upper extremity the number of contusions observed?
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There were eight separate contusions in the right upper extremity. Again, I want to emphasize that one of these contusions is a large contusion that covers the dorsal aspect of the right hand, the fingers of the right hand. It's a fairly extensive injury that involved the entirety of the right hand.
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In addition, two of the contusions are paired, or they are closely approximated together, and they are opposing arcs. These contusions were suggested in a pattern of possible bite mark of the arm.
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The number of lacerations to the right upper extremity?
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There were four separate lacerations or tears of the skin of the right upper extremity. Okay.
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The left lower extremity of the hyacinth is commonly referred to as the leg. What is that area? Am I correct, doctor?
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The left lower extremity extends from pretty much the hip down to the foot.
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The number of abrasions observed to hyacinth?
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There are three separate abrasions, including, again, a possible pattern abrasion. That's that imprint that allows me to give a possible indication of the instrument used.
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And that's, again, crescentic or kind of half-moon shape? Correct. This one was more circular. Circular. And then number of contusions on the left lower extremity? There were seven separate contusions on the left lower extremity. Let's move on finally to the right lower extremity of East Antique. A number of abrasions.
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There were two abrasions of the right lower extremity.
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And a number of contusions to that right lower extremity.
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There were four separate contusions of the right lower extremity.
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Page 2 of Incident 12, can you indicate what is depicted in the abrasion?
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Of course. As we said earlier, I reasonably put a circle around the body diagram's heads. The earlier diagram was just because there were so many injuries of the head that there just wasn't enough room to depict them individually. Depicted in this diagram are the stab wounds, abrasions, contusions, and lacerations of He-San Teague's head. The stab wounds are visible.
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Let's see if you can see them very well. Here's a depiction. I think I drew this manually. I apologize for my artwork. But this is the decedent's left ear. Stab wound A was located just behind the decedent's left ear. There are a number of incised wounds as well. The first one, of course, is the one that transects or cuts off the upper aspect of her left ear.
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There's also an incised wound of the left cheek. and incised wounds of the right cheek as well, and I believe there was also an incised wound of the left side of the forehead. Then, in areas with hash marks, these are all different areas of bruising or contusions. These are all bruises that have been inflicted upon this antique's head.
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Some of these have a pattern appearance, a circular appearance, or quiescentic sort of appearances. Then these jagged injuries, or lacerations, or tears, or rips in the deceased's tissues caused by application of workforce trauma. She also, in addition to the skin, she also had oral mucosal bruising and tears, or contusions and lacerations.
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And then as we described earlier, there's a number of skull fractures as well, which are depicted in another diagram also. This is the diagram. Page three. In page 3, can everyone hear me okay? Thank you. Underneath some of the lacerations, there were fractures present. And these are crescent-shaped fractures.
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Again, very helpful because they help me tell that this object that caused this must have a rounded edge. There were crescent-shaped divots or fractures of the frontal bone, or the bone of the front of the skull, and the left parietal bone, or the bone of the side of the skull. Now, these impacts were so hard that they also caused fractures of the base of the skull.
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So you did not see any staining on the floor when you first came in? No. Okay. So what happened then after you entered the residence? What do you mean? What happened? I think you said you observed some water spilled on the floor. So then what happened?
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When you remove the skull cap and you remove the brain, this is the base of the skull where the brain sits. The spinal cord goes in here. Underneath both of these plates are the eyes, so these are referred to as the orbital plates. These are thin bones, and both of these were broken as well from impacts.
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In addition, her nasal bone was broken, and she had a wedge-shaped fracture of her jaw right there. And these are the fractures depicted there. This is a side view from the left, depicting those fractures as well. There's another one there also. This is a lateral view of the decedent's body.
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Again, I'm using the lateral diagrams to help depict some of the injuries that may not have been easy to show on the front and side views. These are depicting bruises to the side of the decedent's body. And these are also depicting some of the crescent-shaped impacts. In these cases, these are abrasions and confusions that are crescent-shaped or like a half moon on the side of the decedent's body.
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So these are close-up diagrams of His Antiques hands, left and right, front and back. Again, the left hand contusion, or this hash mark, is going all the way up the forearm, all the way up to the elbow. This is extensive bruising going from the elbow to the hand. In addition, there are crescent-shaped lacerations of the dorsal aspects of our hand. This fingernail on the index finger is split.
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There is a laceration on the palm of her hand as well, and there are also broken bones in the decedent's left hand. On the right hand as well, we have bruising of the back and the front, or the dorsal aspect and the palmar aspect of her left hand. There are lacerations of her hand as well, there and there, and she also has broken bones in her right hand as well.
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At this time, I'd like to see if we could just approach the state in the defense for a brief sidebar.
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So ladies and gentlemen, this thing looks like a good time for us to take about a 15-minute break. The jury has returned to the courtroom. Do we have Dr. Tranchita?
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Okay. Dr. Tranchita, I'd like to, before we complete the direct examination, ask you to show you a couple, several photographs and see if you can identify these for the jury. The first photograph I'd like to show you is 1M4. And could you, Dr. Trankeita, identify what is depicted in 1M4 up on the screen?
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The shower was running, and Sabrina went to go check on her mother and found her in the bathroom, and there were stains all over the floor. And then that is when... He came out of the laundry room and attacked.
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This was the ligature, a rope that was recovered from around He-San Teague's neck, the body of He-San Teague. It appears to be a yellow woven nylon sort of rope that was looped around, or looped through, rather, a gray metal hook. has created a man-fixed simple noose around the deceased's neck.
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Now, Dr. Chankita, you've already discussed numerous injuries on East Antiques' body in various places that either had a complete circle shape or half-circle or crescentic type of shape like a crescent moon. I want to show you one specific photo. It would be 1M12. See if you could identify that jury.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
One M12 is depicting a crescent shaped abrasions. on the upper aspect of the left side of the scene's back, just on the medial aspect, or the closest part to the midline of the shoulder blade. In addition, there's a second, more circular, outlined circular abrasion. These are what we referred to earlier as our patterned abrasions.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In other words, these aren't just regular sort of shapes on the skin surface. there's a very kind of clearly defined shape to this injury, which might be helpful to indicate what sort of instrument or object caused, or surface caused these injuries.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Now, Dr. Trinkita, as part of your examination, a part of your autopsy in this case, did you have an opportunity to look at a tire iron that was displayed to you as part of this autopsy?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I did, and I referred to this tire iron on page 14 of the autopsy report. This was after the completion of the autopsy in a separate room. I examined a tire iron that was brought to me as a possible instrument.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'd like to show you just several more photographs at this time, starting with 1M13. Can you identify that photograph for the jury?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is the tire iron that was brought to me. This is a photograph that was taken by us. We have used a blue tray as a background. And this is our label from our medical examiner's office. It's a gray scale label that we can detect to see if there's an alteration to color. And it also has a scale on it as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The case number for this case is also included on the label, so we know which photograph goes with which case. This is the tire iron that was given. As you can see, it has a rounded edge. It has a chiseled edge, and the remainder of the tire iron is wrapped in what appears to be gray duct tape.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As you got to look at that tire iron depicted in this photograph, was there at least a red substance on portions of the duct tape as well? That is correct.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In particular, when there was dried red residue on the socket end of the tire iron as well as on the duct tape as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It went really well, and we were trying to get everything set up and start life together.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'd like to go forward to 1M14. Can you just describe it? It's more of a close-up. Can you describe that for the jury?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you go over to the bathroom to look to see what was in there at that time? No, I did not. Drawing your attention back to this photograph, that appears to be a kitchen island. Is that accurate? Yes. When you came in, where did you go? I was on the other side of the island. When you say the other side of the island, are you talking about the side where the table and chairs are or the other side?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is some of that tacky red substance residue that was present, consistent with blood, on the duct tape of the tie rod.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And is this the end of it, or has the rounded area at the end of the tie rod? That is correct. Go to 1M15, or the close-up again.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is more towards the middle portion between the socket end and the chisel end of the tire iron. Again, the duct tape that's wrapped around the handle, if you will. And again, red residue droplets present on the duct tape.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Go forward to photograph 1M16.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is another close-up to, again, emphasize the presence of this red residue of droplets present on the duct tape. 1M17. This is the chisel portion of the tire iron. As you can see, it has a fairly sharper edge than the chisel portion, which is not covered with duct tape.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is a side view of the socket head of the tire wrench. Again, duct tape is covering the tire wrench almost all the way up to the socket head. And there's dried red residue on the socket head.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Final photograph, 1M19.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is an on-foss or head-on view of the socket head. The one thing that I want to emphasize is the rounded edge of the socket head of the tire wrench. In addition, there's also a hexagonal pattern imprinted on the inner aspect of the socket head. of the injuries. The curvature of the socket head is consistent with some of the pattern abrasions caused on the body.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And in addition, the edge of the hexagon is also indicated in some of the injuries as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So based on your view of the, of Hisantik's body and also your view of this, this tire iron object we're looking at, you indicated, you believe this tire iron is consistent with causing some of those injuries on her body.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's correct. I believe that during the assault of Hisantig, the ligature that was indicated earlier was used, and this tile iron is consistent with having been used as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'd like to go back to photo 1M12, and I'd like to see if we can zoom in, if we can zoom in any further. Can we do that? Okay. Okay. Dr. Tranchita, do you see the injury? It's on the right side of the photograph, the right side of Hisantique's kind of torso on her back. You can see that's the circle, is that correct?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's correct.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And can you actually see on the right side of the circle that hexagon or more of a straight edge? Absolutely. Well, then I'll just ask Dr. Tranchita, you describe what you see in that injury.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As we talked about earlier, we are seeing a pattern injury present on the seaman's body. Another part of the body is crescentic. In other words, only a portion of this rounded object has struck the seaman's body, so we're only seeing the crescent as opposed to the full moon or the full circle of the object.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In this injury, we can see that, again, one side is hit, causing a crescentic compression, but then a portion of the other side is present, creating a more complete circle. On the inner aspect of the circle, there appears to be a portion of a hexagonal image.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Just finally, a couple final questions, Dr. Tranchita. Based on your autopsy, your observations, your training experience, do you have a reasonable degree of medical certainty an opinion as the cause of death of .
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The other side. And where did Sabrina go oriented on this photograph? The side with the table and chairs. I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B4. Can you describe what's in that photograph? That is the fridge and the laundry room at the house. There appears to be staining on the floor and the wall and on the refrigerator. Was that staining present when you entered the residence? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what is that opinion?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I listed her cause of death as homicidal violence, including stab wounds of the torso, blunt force trauma of the head, torso extremities, and compression of the neck.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you have, again, an opinion? You kind of already indicated homicidal. Do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty to the manner of death of Heath Santee based on everything that you place on the record today? I do. What is that opinion?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe that the manner of death of Heath Santee is homicide.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No further questions for Dr. Tranchita.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Cotton?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No questions. Thank you.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B5. Can you identify that photograph and what it depicts? That is the kitchen and the island. Can you see the bathroom where his son was located in this photograph? Yes. And where is it on the photograph? By the stairwell. And which direction from the stairwell is it? Towards the right. Towards the right.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you dated her? Yes. And at some point in time, did you live with Sabrina? Yes. When did that happen? About a month after we got together. And where did you live with her? With her in her house. And do you know the address of that house? 1368 Riverdale Drive. Who else lived there with you? Her mother. And what was her mother's name? He's son. Did she have a nickname? Sonny. Sonny?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So can you see into the bathroom very well in this photograph? No. So when you say that Sabrina went to go check on her mom, where did she go? Were you able to see the area where Sabrina went on this photograph? Yes. Can you describe that for the jury in a little more detail?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She went back towards the back of the house on the stairwell, and then right there in the bathroom was right in front of it.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After Sabrina looked into that bathroom, what did Sabrina do? She said, oh, my God, Mom, and then opened her phone to call 911. And did she stay in that area or did she move at all? She started walking back towards the door. Towards the door that you had entered? Yes. And where are you while that is happening? Standing by the island still. On this photograph, the left or the right of the island?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Left. There is some, what appears to be staining on the floor on the left side of the island. Was that staining present when you entered the home that day? No. So what happened after Sabrina said, oh my God, pulled out her phone and then started walking toward your direction? And... He walked out of the laundry room and proceeded to attack us. When you say he, who are you talking about? Kaya.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And do you know his first name? Jacob. At this point, Your Honor, I'm going to ask if Mr. Kennedy can identify the individual who he knows as Jacob Kaya. Before Mr. Kennedy makes any identification, I'm going to ask that... All of the members at council table and people in the first row remove their masks.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Once everyone's mask is removed, Joel, I'm going to ask you if you see the person who you know as Jacob in court here today. Yes, I do. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. Do you see him? Yes, I do. Could you indicate for the record where he is seated and what he is wearing? There and a gray shirt. I would ask the record reflect that he has identified the defendant. The record will so reflect.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you recall who Mr. Kayer attacked first, you or Sabrina? Sabrina. And where was she located when Mr. Kayer attacked her? On the other side of the island, by the chairs. Do you know what he used to attack either of you? A kitchen knife. Could you see the knife in his hand? Yes. Do you know what hand it was in? Right, I believe. Did you actually see Mr. Kair stab Sabrina? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you indicated that he attacked you as well. Do you know when that happened in relation to when he attacked Sabrina?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe he went after her first and then came over to attack me.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When he attacked you, where were you? I was still standing on the other side of the island. Were you standing roughly in the location where the staining is located? Yes. You said Sabrina had her phone out. What happened with the phone? I believe he slapped it out of her hand. And do you know if she actually successfully called 911? I do not think so. When Mr. Akayer attacked you, what happened?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I was standing by the island and he walked up and went to stab me and then I put my arm up and the blade went through my arm and into my chest. And then I fell back And started kicking at him and punching.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what did he do at that point when you started kicking at him and punching him?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe he kind of walked away and started going after Sabrina again. What did you do?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I went out into the garage. Through the same door that you had entered? Yes. What did you do when you got to the garage? I went and I grabbed a shovel. And once you grabbed the shovel, where did you go to grab the shovel in the garage? On the other side of the garage. That garage, when we looked in exhibit, 1B1, we could see that the garage has three stalls. Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is that what everybody called her, Sonny? Yes. You too? Yes. And you said that shortly after you were dating, you were living with her, everything was going pretty well in your relationship? Yes. Joel, I'm going to show you what's been previously marked as Exhibit 1B1. Can you see it on this screen in front of you here? Mr. Kennedy, can you identify what's in that photograph? That is the house.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Orienting from that photograph, what location of the garage was the shovel found in? I'll bring that photograph back up for you here. The furthest right stall. So the shovel was near there? Yes. So you ran across the entire garage to get it? Yes. When you grabbed that shovel, what did you do then? They were...
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
following me out into the garage, fighting the entire time. And then I struck him here with the shovel. Where did you strike him? I believe in the face. And what happened then? They fell down, and I ran inside the house and locked the doors and called 911.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Welcome to Crimatorium, where loss of faith in humanity is delivered to you one case at a time.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It was presumably the last photo taken of his face before he was killed.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It seemed like, well, my parents would just, you know, spank us or hit us as discipline. So it seemed like at age seven, around then, it started getting a little bit more intense. That's something I remember.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
This is a reflection of the left eye as depicted in Exhibit 159, correct? Mr. Alexander's left eye, correct. And this is the eye we see as reflected in Exhibit 159. This is a focus on that.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
And we can tell the height relative to the cornea, correct? The height, the level of the camera relative to the cornea? You stood up and you demonstrated us how you could see that the photograph was being taken.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
What you've done for purposes of demonstration here is that you've shown us a figure that is visible on your equipment but not visible, completely as visible here, of a person holding a camera, correct?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
And this outline you've done That's not an alteration to the photograph, is that correct?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Jody and Travis exchanged 82,000 emails throughout their relationship. Jody has filed for appeal twice since her conviction, both citing prosecutorial misconduct. Her conviction for first-degree murder has been upheld each time. The prosecution team wanted to introduce evidence that Jodi tortured animals. Torturing pets.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Well, I was spanked before on occasion, just it seemed like the frequency and the intensity of it increased around that age.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
This was according to something she had told one of the defense mental health specialists, Alice DeViolette. The judge felt that what Jodi reported to LaViolette didn't amount to animal abuse. Speaking of Alice LaViolette, she was a strong advocate for Jodi and named Travis as the abuser. Her testimony caused a huge backlash towards her by defenders of Travis.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
One of her books on Amazon received numerous bad reviews as a result, and a change.org was set up asking that she no longer be allowed to speak at domestic abuse seminars based on her testimony during the Arias trial. She currently has a counseling practice in California. The following clip is Jody speaking to the court before the delivery of her sentence.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
What do you mean by that, frequency and intensity?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Judge, I just want to respond to a few of the things that were said earlier. My legal team and I tried to settle this case on four different occasions before trial. We tried two times before the 2013 trial, and what Samantha said was not accurate. I was not the one who refused to settle.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Well, just there were, I think that's the first year my dad started using a belt. My mom began to carry a wooden spoon in her purse.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It was Travis's family who not only refused to settle and insisted on both trials, but then they bragged about it all over social media, including posting a group photo on the steps of this very courthouse, holding out all of their thumbs down, refusing to settle. As for not wanting the death penalty, it's my firm belief that death would bring me untold peace and freedom.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
That's my personal belief. If I died today, I would be free and I would be at peace. For years, that's exactly what I wanted. but I had to fight for my life just like I did on June 4th, 2008, because I realized how selfish it would be for me to escape accountability for this mess that I've created.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I have two brothers, two sisters, several nieces and nephews, a mom, a dad, eight aunts, nine uncles, over 20 cousins that I've grown up with, as well as countless friends, all of whom would suffer greatly if I took my own life or if I allocated and begged for the death penalty and then got it. I did not drag Travis through the mud. I protected Travis's reputation for years.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I did say he was an influential person. I kept his skeletons in the closet all to my own detriment for years. What I testified to was not false. They were not made up. They were not things that I wanted to get out into public either. But when I was on the stand, I told the truth.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Your Honor was also here during the second trial when a lot of evidence came to light that supported my testimony from people that never even knew me but knew Travis. I do remember as I testified to this I'm sorry, I think I would have testified to this in the 2014 trial. I do remember the moment when the knife went into Travis's throat and he was conscious. He was still trying to attack me.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
You were just now telling us that your mother carried a spoon with her. What did she do with that spoon?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It was I who was trying to get away, not Travis, and I finally did. I never wanted it to be that way, Judge. The gunshot did not come last, it came first, and that was when Travis lunged at me just as I testified to, and just as the state's own detective testified two years ago before he and Juan got together and decided to change their story for trial.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Most of you have heard the name Jodi Ann Arias, and it probably conjures feelings about her innocence or guilt. Some hate her, some idolize her. Questions arise like, was she really defending herself? Does she have a mental illness? And if so, what is it? Was the killing of Travis premeditated?
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
As for not being abused, maybe I wasn't as badly abused as Travis and his siblings were by their parents. But I didn't consider it abuse either. I didn't consider being beaten and hit and all those things abuse. That was discipline in my family. That's how my parents were disciplined by their parents. That's why I didn't consider those things abuse. I understand now that that's abuse.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
So for Samantha to say that I was not a victim of abuse is wrong because I was. And my family understands that now. And we, like my mom said, I didn't come with instructions. They did the best they could. They didn't do it because they're bad parents. They did it because they thought that they were disciplining us. And that's the best that they knew how.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
The most important thing I wanna say is that I am very sorry for the enormous pain that I've caused the people that love Travis. I never thought I would cause so many people so much pain. I live every day wishing that I could undo what I did to Travis and wishing that I could take away their pain, just put it onto myself.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
To this day, I can't believe that I was capable of doing something that terrible. I can't even, I'm truly disgusted and I'm repulsed with myself. I'm horrified because of what I did and I wish there was some way I could take it back.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It was a wooden kitchen spoon that she would keep in her purse, and we were misbehaving, my brother and I. This was before Angela and Joseph were born, although it continued through that point. If we were misbehaving, she would use it on us. Sometimes she would pull the car over and, you know, if we were just being brats or something.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It's chilling and it gives us more of a candid peek of the real Jodi and what happens to people when they cross her.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
You said that these were frequent, these incidents where your mother would hit you. They were frequent and intense. I think those are your words, right?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
They were definitely intense, but they increased in frequency as I got a little older.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Can you discern for us how many times a week your mother would beat you with this?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I don't recall how many times particularly, but it seemed like it could go anywhere from four times a week to...
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It seems that she's trying to elicit sympathy for events that a lot of us experienced as children, being spanked by their parents. It's safe to say that what she went through pales in comparison to what she did to Travis. Also, because of her history of lying, one has to question everything she says.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
This particular line of testimony really demonstrates to me her level of narcissism, given the fact that she killed Travis in such a brutal way. Jodi's mother, Sandy, responded to these allegations by simply saying, I am a mom. Just like any other mom, I did the best job I could raising my children. Part 2. Possible Diagnoses. The Four Therapists. Plus Dr. Grande.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Jodi appears to be intelligent, yet it doesn't seem that she applied that intelligence to schooling or higher-end jobs. She indicated that she took classes in real estate as she was interested in pursuing a career in that field, yet she didn't finish. The course typically lasts three months. If she was interested in that field, why didn't she just take the full course and become an agent?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
The answer could be lack of funds or even time constraints. My own theory is that Jodi lives in the moment. She adapts to whatever situation she's in and becomes whoever or whatever her partner at the time needs her to be. Case in point, the quickness with which she was baptized into the Mormon church by Travis.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Also, with her looks and manipulative ways, she felt she could skirt by as long as she had a man in her life to take care of her. That's not to say that when she sets her mind to something that she can't make plans and follow through with those plans. This is obvious with the way the prosecutor says she planned and executed Travis's murder.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
the rented car, the three gas cans, her phone being turned off during key times, the upside-down license plate, the fact that she had the gun that was stolen from her grandparents, etc., etc. There were three mental health professionals that evaluated Jodi for the trial, and each one diagnosed something a little different.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
One diagnosed her with PTSD and that the killing was a result of a fight-or-flight mode Jodi was in. Another said she was a victim of domestic violence. The prosecution witness diagnosed Jodi with borderline personality disorder and that she was terrified of being abandoned.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
According to Dr. Grande, a mental health professional who has a YouTube channel, he says Jodi has symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder, more so than borderline. He didn't give her a definitive diagnosis. He said that sometimes people just do bad things. If you haven't watched his channel, I recommend it. I'll leave a link in the notes. Part 3. The Crime
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
This case was a media sensation, with thousands of spectators glued to their TVs watching the trial, including myself. Many people defended her because they believed that Travis was a player and that he used her. They also believed Jodi's claims that Travis was a pedophile. If you're not familiar with this case, there are plenty of videos and articles that cover it in depth. Part 1.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
On June 8, 2008, Travis's roommates discovered him deceased in the shower of his Mesa, Arizona home. During the investigation, his ex-girlfriend, Jodi Arias, was brought up many times as a possible suspect. It was stated that she was obsessed with him and often arrived at his home uninvited. She was also suspected of slashing the tires to his car.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Travis suffered a gunshot wound to the head and 27 stab wounds all over his body. He had a deep gash on his neck that was six inches wide and one and a half inches deep. The medical examiner, Kevin Horn, testified that Travis's carotid artery, jugular vein, and trachea were slashed and he had defensive wounds on his hands.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Fingerprints were located throughout the home and officers located a camera that had been placed in the washer. Investigators were able to view the pictures from the camera and match the fingerprints found in the home to Jody, which led them to question and arrest her. In the interrogation, Jody informed Detective Flores that she didn't go to Travis' house while on a road trip at that time.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
He used several investigative techniques to get the truth from her, but Jody stuck to that story. Later on in the investigation, Jody told the story about the intruders entering Travis's home and shooting him, then allowing Jody to leave the house, retrieving all of her belongings on the way out.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
She states that she left Travis behind and didn't call the police because these intruders threatened to do the same thing to her and her family if she told anyone. There were holes in this story, so that's when she settled on her final story, that she was defending herself from Travis after he became angry that she dropped his new camera and he attacked her. Part 4.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Trial, Verdict, and Sentencing On July 9, 2008, Jody was indicted by a grand jury for first-degree murder, for which she pleaded not guilty. Opening arguments commenced on January 2, 2013, and closing arguments began on May 4, 2013. Jody took the stand and testified for 18 days, an amount of time described as unprecedented.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
The interaction between her and the prosecutor, Juan Martinez, was interesting. The jury deliberated for 15 hours before finding Jody guilty of first-degree murder. After the verdict was read, the crowds outside cheered. In the penalty phase, Jodi gave an allocution to the jury as to why her life should be spared.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
A few months before trial, and by that I mean jury selection, my hair was past my waist, and I donated it. Additionally, I've designed a t-shirt. This is the t-shirt. of which 100% of the proceeds go to support nonprofit organizations, which also assist other victims of domestic violence.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
In the end, the death penalty was taken off the table due to one lone juror voting against it. After the penalty phase retrial, Jody was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. She was also ordered to pay more than $32,000 in restitution to Travis's family.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
A side note about the one juror who voted against the death penalty, she claimed that her life was threatened after her name was leaked to the public. It also emerged that Juan Martinez had been the prosecutor in a case involving her ex-husband. She claims she let the bailiff know, but she was allowed to continue as a juror. You can watch the trial in its entirety from the channel CrokerQueen123.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Jodi's Childhood Jody was born on July 9, 1980. She describes her childhood as happy for the most part, up until she turned seven. It was at that age, she testifies, her parents began to use corporal punishment on her and her three siblings. She describes to the court how her mother and father carried out this punishment.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
A link will be provided. Part 5 Aftermath A GoFundMe has been set up for a retrial that her fans hope will set her free. There are also sites that sell t-shirts dedicated to Jodi, as well as a website called Jodi Arias is Innocent.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
One can only imagine that having others dedicate so much time on one's behalf would feed into a narcissist's feelings of superiority, if that is indeed what Jodi suffers from. It's perplexing to me that she has so many defenders given the fact that she described Travis's last moments to the court at the penalty phase of the trial.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Maybe there's a theory that has been written about that on one of those sites. A quote from one of those sites says, Remember, each day that passes takes us one day closer to Jody's release date. As part of the research for the case, I watched a documentary called If I Can't Have You on Discovery+. The defense attorney, Jennifer Wilmot, spoke about the case against Jody.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It is evident that she truly believes in Jody's innocence from the vantage point of defending herself against Travis's abuse. She makes some compelling points. The strongest one in my mind was the scene of the crime. To paraphrase, she states Jody did not plan this murder as she left a contaminated crime scene. Plus, it looked more like it was a crime of passion because of how messy it was.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
She spoke about how Travis was manipulative with Jody and that she always did what Travis wanted. She also mentioned that Travis was unfaithful to Jody. As for her initial lies to the detectives, Wilmot's response to this was that most defendants lie at first as a defense mechanism. She also feels that Jodi didn't get a fair trial because of the media sensation that it was.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
The prosecutor, Juan Martinez, took photo ops with the crowd that gathered outside the courtroom every day, which did add to the media sensation and seemed inappropriate for such a high-profile case. One of the defense psychologists, Professor Robert Geffner, said that Martinez was portrayed as a saint in the trial.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
He also states that he is in possession of nearly 15 pages of text messages between Travis and other women, and in those messages, Travis gets sexually graphic. Bottom line, Jodi was living in another state and had therefore escaped her so-called abuser, yet she traveled from California to Arizona to see Travis.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I know that abusive relationships are complicated, but this is just one piece of the whole puzzle. She was not a teenager at the time she was dating Travis. She was a grown woman who is responsible for the decisions she makes. There was no evidence presented that backed up her allegations of abuse from Travis, nor pedophilia.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I think it was established that Travis looked at Jody as not a life partner, but a sexual one. Does this justify her murdering Travis? No, it doesn't. Jody slaughtered Travis in life and again after he died by making unsubstantiated allegations that he was not around to defend. In the notes below, there are some links to more information regarding this case.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Speaking of that, your life was pretty ideal up until about age seven. Is something different after age seven?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
There are photographs of Travis at the crime scene and at the time of the autopsy. If you want to view those, some can be found on Wild About Trial. There were many twists and turns in this case and here are a few that I found interesting. Travis's friends testified that Jodi would often enter Travis's home uninvited as she knew the code to his door.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
They also stated that once the code was changed, she entered through the doggie door and even slept under the Christmas tree. Jodi won a Christmas singing contest in prison and she and her cellmates received a turkey dinner.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
After practicing law for 30 years, Prosecutor Juan Martinez agreed to be disbarred rather than go to trial for years of accusations of sexual harassment and professional misconduct. By agreeing to the disbarment, he is not admitting to any wrongdoing. A photo expert testified in court that he could see a reflection of Jody holding a camera in Travis's eye.
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60 Seconds Of True Crime | Grandmother Mary Dawn Wilson Goes Missing in Alaska
69-year-old Mary Dawn Wilson went missing on July 12, 2022, after leaving a friend's home in Healy, Alaska. Her abandoned car was found at 1.30 a.m. on July 14 on the seven-mile marker of the Stampede Trail in Denali. Inside the locked car was her two-year-old granddaughter, whom Mary had been caring for. The little girl was in good health despite being alone in the car for two days.
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60 Seconds Of True Crime | Grandmother Mary Dawn Wilson Goes Missing in Alaska
She was later returned to relatives. The Alaska State Troopers and dogs searched the surrounding area for Mary, only finding some of her belongings scattered another mile down the trail. The search was called off on July 18th. Mary Dawn Wilson, who may also use the last name Stanley, was 69 years old when she went missing. She has gray hair and blue eyes.
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60 Seconds Of True Crime | Grandmother Mary Dawn Wilson Goes Missing in Alaska
She's 4 feet 10 inches tall and weighs 160 pounds. She was wearing a floral pink dress with multiple layers underneath and a cream-colored cuspic with green flowers. If you have any information about her case, please reach out to the Alaska State Troopers at 907- You can also make an anonymous report online.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
to be recalled in the future. But, Mr., any other questions at this time, Mr. Young, from this witness? I do. I do. That year, around Christmas, do you recall being given the items of evidence from the Adams County Sheriff's Department?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'm an AR nurse at Blessing Hospital, and I specialize in SANE. Well, let's talk about that. You say you're curious about what SANE is. Tell me what SANE is. I'm a sexual assault nurse examiner. I do exams on patients who have been sexually assaulted.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I myself base my life on being logical, being honest, being value to logic and honesty. It's my favorite pastime, present and future. Today I ask that those of you here be logical, not just the jurors who have the ability to judge this situation, but everybody. Logical as I would rather people be. Today, I will show you a lot of things that are not logical.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And on 11-9, did you notate the injuries of CL with Sloan? I did. Do you have a copy of that present? I do. Could you... possibly go to page six of step two it is a general exam continue i'll start there generally or normal as this normal procedure i would think you would notate all physical markings trauma markings descriptions right to the best of my ability the best of your ability can you uh
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Throughout this trial, I will show you a lot of things that are not logical. Persuasion is not logical. I myself, personally, I promise not to attempt to persuade you. Nor will I manipulate you. I do not find pleasure in doing such. As stated yesterday, I'm a pro se defendant. I'm held to the same standards as any attorney here today.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You've notated some markings here today on a screen and with the state's attorney. Can you read off the notations that you made in this general exam on the continued page?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Bruising to the dorsal side of the left hand, pain to the tailbone.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'm going to object. He's asked the witness to read. If he wants her to read, then she should be given the opportunity to answer the question and read what he said.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I do not expect you to feel sorry for me because I'm a pro-state defendant. I expect you to take it at what you value it as, along with agreeing with law, you know, taking the law into consideration. They say an opening statement is made to acquaint the finder of facts with yourself or with the claims and what you intend to prove. That's exactly what I do today.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I've lost it. In the objection, you may answer that question.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
bruise, four centimeters by three centimeters to the inner left buttock, redness to the right knee, and bruising to the left knee.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And as you said, you're a professional. Obviously, you can determine what bruising is, recent, prior, old, right? Sorry? You stated just a few minutes ago that number four, which you notated as redness to the right knee. You stated that that was a bruise minutes ago.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Myself, I would say proof is a rare thing to come by these days. No one has absolute proof except for, say, you have these cameras here in this room today and I can prove that you are here today. There's a lot of claims placed forth that do not have an effect that coincides with them. I intend to show and prove you that today and throughout this trial.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Redness and bruising sometimes can look similar.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
they, they can. Um, but you did in the exam on 11, nine, you know, 10 minutes written express. Correct. And, uh, as far as number one, bruising to dorsal side of left hand, that would be the top, right? Correct. And, uh, Number two, you described as, well, excuse me, CL probably described to you as pain to the tailbone area, right? Correct.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
What I also intend to prove you are blatant lies. Incredible and impossible happenings. We all know what incredible and impossible means. Impossible means not possible. Credible means it's not credible. I also intend to prove you improper procedure. Throughout this trial, you'll see some of the most major coincidences you've ever seen in your lives.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And number three, you obviously stated four centimeters by three centimeters. That's approximately the size, right? Not too big. It's not an inch wide, an inch in diameter, right? I'm going to object your honor, an inch is a little bit more than two centimeters, so four centimeters would be more than an inch. Excuse me, you're right. I apologize. I worded that wrong.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I want to talk to you about November 9th, 2021. Were you working in the emergency rooms that night? I was. When you were working in the emergency room that night, was there an occasion where you met with or conducted an exam of recursion that you would be questioning?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Number five, bruising to the left knee. That is correct, true? Yeah. Ms. Oglesby, you put an in-depth description on number three, and that was a bruise to the inner left buttock. Is there a reason that you did not put an in-depth size description on number one and number five?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And they are established, and I'm sure some of the witnesses will attest to them. There are major coincidences in this case. As stated, I talked about logical. I intend to show you that these things do not follow a definition of logic. I will show you what coercion, manipulation, and deceit is.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There's not.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And if you look at the picture, you obviously still have a number five. I believe that was... Just for the record, I don't think she has her pictures in front of her. Send the bell if you need her to make sure she moves on. So if you go to, I believe it is number 23, it shows the needs. Yes, yes ma'am, the needs.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I will show you what certain persons think it is absolutely funny to be vindictive, to lie, to place forth claims, and that would be from the horse's mouth. I will prove to you reason for false testimony from some who may or may not testify throughout this adventure. I'll show you how other law enforcement think these events that are alleged to have happened are quite odd themselves.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And if you observe the left knee, could you give a brief description of maybe the size of that to the best of your knowledge based on your professionalism?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'm unable to recall due to the size of the picture.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Stating such in an indirect way, that is law enforcement, and I intend to prove that to you. I wish any of the claims and things placed forth by all here today, witnesses, and the claimant herself, just do not add up or coincide with each other.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
But can you, I mean, as far as the picture you have in your hand, it's very obvious. Could you give a brief description of maybe what it covers, the length?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It covers the lower part of the knee.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The lower part of the knee. Pretty much the whole knee, correct?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The lower part of the knee.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'd like to step over to... the statement on step two, page two. I understand you've got a redacted statement there in your hands, possibly. I've been given three redactions myself. If you look at that redaction,
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The prosecution intends to prove to those of you that a 77-year-old woman has been brutally beat, battered, sexually assaulted is the proper pronunciation or the proper usage, term usage in trials. They intend to prove to you that a 77-year-old woman was home invaded, kidnapped, hijacked, thrown downstairs at 77 years old. Thrown downstairs. Some of you are young.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Judge, I want to be clear. We haven't introduced anything, and what she has is an unredacted version of her report.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
An unredacted record. There should be no redactions on the report in the witness's hand you're referring her to. If you would go down to the lower center part of the page, I believe it'd be about eight lines up. It says, he then... Judge, I'm going to object at this point.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
If you were thrown downstairs, what would that damage do to you? Thrown downstairs in a violent manner. The prosecution intends to prove to you that a 77-year-old woman was thrown downstairs in a violent manner. All these claims are violent. They're sick. They're demented. All of these being brutal, violent, heinous claims. Those are the titles of alleged claims the judge has placed forth, as Ms.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
This is here, sir. If he wants to get into this... We didn't get into this specifically because he had objected earlier.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So we want to get into everything that this patient told this nurse. We can do that.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
May it please the court, the defense, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. At 77 years old, Tina Lohman had raised four children. She was a wife, a mother, a grandmother, and a great-grandmother. She ran a successful business with her husband, Tim. But to Tina, what was most important was her family.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
But then the rule of completeness is we're going to get into all of it. So it's up to the defendant. If he wants all this in, that's fine.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
But he's not going to pick and choose different lines in there. All right, well, it's not going to direct court on how we're going to get into things, Mr. Jones, but I would suggest we take a 10-minute recess until 2.30. We'll have the jury excused to the jury assembly room and he will address this issue and objections outside of the hearing of the jury.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Keck has also stated, of what I've just relayed to you, and more. Some of these descriptions you will hear throughout this trial. I aim to present to you, those of you here today, and I aim to present to those of you from the mouth who spoke them, these claims, and that they are not true. What's better than the person who spoke them? Turning here, Mr. Jones and Ms.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That is going to do what's called opening the door. Yes, sir. And under the rule of completeness, if you open the door to part of that, that means you open the door to all of that. And that may include everything that would otherwise be inadmissible as hearsay.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Kick, I believe they both have great intentions. I'm sure they do. However, they're here to attest to something they do not know themselves. They do not have full and 100% proof of. They're just doing their jobs. I don't expect you to hold it against them. I only expect you to be fair. I spoke at the beginning, this being very hard for me. Obviously it is. I'm the defendant here today.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Okay, and so I wanted to caution you and at least make you aware of that, but before you open the door, if you go down this line of questioning the way you were attempting to proceed, the state is going to be able to introduce that entire report. Your Honor. Okay. Yes, sir. As it stands, the state has already crossed the testimonial line. They crossed the testimonial line with Mr. Smith.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It's my life in jeopardy. It's my life on the line. Not only is it hard for me, I spoke of it being hard for everybody here. I'm sure those of you in the jury today did not want to hear the sickening claims or have to go through this. All we can do is take what we have and place weight on it from our own views. Mainly you people here today, you jurors.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Can you tell me about what time she was coming?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
right now. Yes, sir. I apologize. I did make myself clear. I didn't mean to try to introduce the unredacted statement. I wanted to assure myself and Ms. Oglesby that she did have the redacted statement so that only the open statements could be used. Was there a redacted statement or the unredacted statement? The Okay. Those are redacted ones with the black lines. All right.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Today you will be presented with some call evidence. Some of these presentations are very odd and would lead you to say, guilty, he's guilty. These are what I spoke of when I said I'd show you coincidences. Those coincidences are by far some of the biggest coincidences one will ever see in a lifetime. Most never see such. Never having the chance to. Why?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It was about 8 o'clock.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So if you go outside and question this witness beyond what is basically not been redacted, then that's going to open the door for the state. So I just wanted to caution you of that before you went down that path.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Later? Yeah.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Because there are coincidences that are extremely rare. There are things that just don't happen. A believer of coincidences is what I intend to make you throughout this trial. Ladies and gentlemen, as I said, devious crimes, they are what I myself would call the worst, the very worst. I think they're worse than murder. That's my point of view. As if they were true also.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes, sir.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
All right. And so we'll finish with the recess. If anybody needs to use the facilities, the court will be in recess, and we'll get the jury back in here promptly at 2.30 and resume with your questioning, Mr. Young. Your Honor, if I may, I object to an issue here. To what? I object to a state's attorney going up to witnesses who are on a stand and whispering for me.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When you do a thing in general, can you give me a general sense of what the first step you do as a sexual assault, how do you come up with what she said?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I wasn't whispering in what this is. I was getting a people's exhibit sticker. I'm thanking the court reporter for getting the exhibit sticker.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I apologize if I'm wrong, but it appeared to be as if he said something misaudibly. Court reporter, I'm kidding right there. All right. So, anything said in the courtroom is on the record, Mr. Young, so we're on the way. Please jump, please ride. Ms. Oglesby, did you take a medical history of Gigi Clarence?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I do not mean to offend anyone here today. However, they simply are not true. My little brother used to run to mother and say, Mom, BB hit me. BB was my sister. He used to say, BB hit me. Mom would say, well, my lovely young man, where are the marks to prove such? Mom, show me the marks. He could not show any mark. Mother would say, I can't tell where the marks are. True story.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And are you aware of some of her existing medical history?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I don't have that record in front of me.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Back to the... Back to the... The bruising, or I should say general medical, general exam continued. You stated that you generally notate all bruises or issues with the person's body when these complaints are made. However, here you've only stated bruises. Three bruises and red marks.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Come to find out, my brother only had the remote taken from him. Scooby-Doo was his favorite. He would watch it end on end for hours. During them times, my brother would make them claims. We would all come to find out in the end that he had just simply walked away from the TV. Sis picked up the remote and he wanted the TV back. The tells he was telling.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
We heard a little while ago you spoke of several different bruises up and down the arm, to the lower legs, underneath the buttocks. Is there a reason for that? The reason that you did not notate all of these marks, they were fresh marks?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You will see that today, here, and throughout this trial, there are major tails told. Tails that are tall. Simply very tall tails. Then, in reference to my brother, the lack of marks gave my mother reasonable doubt. Today, I intend to prove an extreme amount of reasonable doubt. Throughout this trial will prove extreme amount of reasonable, unreasonable doubt, or excuse me, reasonable doubt.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
This was a very complex case and I documented it to the best of my ability.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'd like to go to page three of acts described by a patient or a story. Can I pause there for a moment? When you notate these issues, per se, these happenings, these descriptions, you have to be, what's the word for it? Exact, maybe, where you take down what a declarant said, correct? Correct.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And on November 9th, 2021, she was looking forward to celebrating the upcoming Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays with her family. She was looking forward to spending those holidays with her husband, her children, her 14 grandchildren, and her 17 great-grandchildren. She had bought the Christmas presents. They were wrapped. They were ready to be placed under the Christmas tree.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It's a victim, yeah.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Reasonable doubt, they say, is any idea or condition that interferes with a person.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Victim, declarant, victim. You take down what they say. You don't normally, for lack of a better word, mess up and mark something that says it's true, right?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Grounds. All right. The jury has left it. I'm reasonable doubt on their own.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Going in, meeting the patient, building that rapport so that they trust you to do their exam.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
What are you referring to?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Well, if you go down penetration of anus, it is the second subject under acts described by patient slash historian on page three of step two. Penetration of anus. It says by penis, finger, and object.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Jury, throughout this week, there will be all kinds of words placed forth, strong words, educated words. Words some of us may not understand. There will be displays. There will be what many call evidence. And there will be testimonies. I will show you, and if you may, prove to you how things are not as they say. Not as they seem. How most just are not possible. Also known as impossible.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Correct.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Object, it was not marked here what the object was. And you have a section off to the right that says what.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
As I stated earlier, I intend to be logical. I will do just that. I humbly ask that you bear with me throughout this process, bear with all of us, those of the court, those of the prosecution, and everybody, recesses, intermissions, just please bear with us and be honest, as I'm sure you all can be, and be fair. Thank you. Mr. Jones, are you prepared to call your first witness? We are, Your Honor.
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That means the patient did not disclose to me what the object was.
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Did you maybe ask her?
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I don't recall.
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Okay. And that is the anus. That is the rear end.
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In this case, what was the first thing you did after you met with this woman? What was the first step you took before you moved in?
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If you would go to page seven of step two, and that is the genital exam. You go down to anal exam, and it says patient declined. No obvious bleeding from rectum. It's clear, right? There's no obvious leading you were the one that analyzed that and examined that? Correct. As you did also examine the labial maneuver genital exam area up in the top left box, that is the vaginal cavity, correct?
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You do so, please. People would call Tim Schmidt to the stand. Mr. Jones, when you're ready with your question. Thank you, Your Honor. Can you please tell us your name? My name is Timothy G. Schmidt.
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Mr. Schmidt, how old are you?
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I'm 66 years old.
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Mr. Schmidt, where do you currently live?
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The outer entrance to the vaginal cavity?
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4300 North Bottom Road.
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Mr. Schmidt, were you married at one point?
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Correct.
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Yes.
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And you noticed bleeding?
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Who were you married to?
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I was married to Christine Lohman.
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I did.
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So it must be a To be penetrated by penis, finger, and object in the anal area, the anal calves, them are the descriptions CL put forth, correct?
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How long were you and Ms. Lohman married?
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A little over two years.
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Were you together longer than that?
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Yes, 36 years.
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So you were together for 36 years and married for two.
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Yes. I want to talk to you a little bit about Tina. First, I'm going to hand you what's been marked as People's Exhibit 77. Do you recognize that person? Yes, that was my wife, Christine Lohman. We'd answer people's Exhibit 77 if they introduced evidence published to the jury. Mr. Ewing, any objection? No. The request is granted. You may admit people's Exhibit 77.
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I was unable to assess the rectum fully for the patient.
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Just assessing her immediate injuries.
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I understand. Them are the claims she placed forth, correct?
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That she was penetrated anally.
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By penis, fingers, penis, finger, and object.
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That is correct.
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There was no bleeding.
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There was no obvious bleeding. I was unable to fully assess the rectum. There could have been bleeding that I was unable to assess.
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And when you met with her and talked with her, not asking what she, but when you met with her and talked with her, were you able to see if she was crying and seemed to accept what her emotional state was?
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The rectum is common knowledge. The rectum is... a bit smaller in diameter than vaginal cavity and quite a bit more sensitive to expansion or penetration, wouldn't you say?
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Without objection, you may call it to the jury.
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Did Tina have children?
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Yes.
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How many children did she have?
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I'm unable to answer that question.
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She had four children.
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Did she have 14 grandkids?
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If I give you a simple scenario, if I try to penetrate this cup with this highlighter here, it's not apt to do any damage, correct? Whereas if I tried to take this small flex pin and try to penetrate this cap, it'd be more apt to do damage because it's small. It's a less expandable area. It's tighter. That'd be a correct assumption based on educational and professional opinions.
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Yes.
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And 17 great-grandchildren?
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And probably more, yeah.
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Was Christina big on the holidays?
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Yes, she was.
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Liked to buy Christmas presents?
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She loved Christmas.
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Loved Christmas.
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And you guys lived together at 4300 North Bottom Road here in Quincy, is it? Yes.
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I want to talk to you about the night of November 9th. That night or that morning, did you go to work?
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Yes. Where do you work? I own American Builders Supply.
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Let me talk about that for a second. Did Tina work with you at American Builders Supply?
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Yes, she did.
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You guys ran that business together?
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I mean, the anus is generally tighter than the vagina. It's smaller.
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Yes.
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For the 38 years that you guys were together?
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She was there not quite 38 years. She was there, I think she came on in 1993. But quite a while. Quite a while. Okay. You left for work that morning. I left for work that morning. Where did you go after work?
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Again, I'm, I'm unable to answer that question. And you could determinably nail or correct.
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I was unable to fully assess the rectum due to the patient's wishes.
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I'd like to go to page four of step two. Sorry, I apologize for bouncing around like this. I'm not a natural. If you go to Page four of step two, methods used by assailants. You have categories of weapons, punch, slap, kick, grab, held down, physical restraints, strangulation, bind, and vocal threats or use of ligature.
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But Tina Loman, she wouldn't get to see the joy and the looks of anticipation on the faces of those grandchildren and great-grandchildren. She wouldn't get to hear them say, Merry Christmas, Grandma, when they showed up at her house to open those presents. She wouldn't get to experience the joy of opening the presents that her husband and children had bought her.
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What time did you leave for work?
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I left work sometime after 5 o'clock, and I went to a farm at home. It was just before deer season, and I like to hunt deer, so I went over looking to see if there was anything I wanted to get before season opened up.
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Getting ready for deer hunting.
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Getting ready for deer hunting, yes. How long were you there? I'd say probably, I guess, a half hour, 40 minutes or something.
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And you went home after that?
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Yes.
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Got home around 6 p.m., give or take?
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On weapons,
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Yeah, it appeared to me that she was in shock. She didn't really have too much emotions going on, I guess.
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Yes.
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It was November night, 6 p.m. When you got home around 6 p.m., and you pulled another... Project leading, leading...
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You marked yes. That's obviously because the victim, as you describe, stated it was a knife, true?
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That's correct.
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All right, this is foundational purposes, so I will overrule that objection.
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And did she say what kind of knife?
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On the paper, it's noted a meat carving knife.
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When you got home around 6 p.m., did you notice anything unusual about your house?
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Meat carving knife. Meat carving knife. Thank you.
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I noticed that the garage door was open. There were some items on the floor in the garage. The car was gone. There were some tire marks in the yard. So I'm going to hand you, or I have the bailiff hand you, some photographs as we go through your testimony. And for the record, it's going to be People's 35 through 50, inclusive, and then People's Exhibit 80.
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And punch, slap, kick.
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What was that answer for that category there?
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It's marked on the exam of no.
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She was not slapped or kicked. Grabbed and held down. Did you answer that?
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It's marked on the paper as yes.
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Thank you. No physical restraints. No strangulation. And no burns. Correct. Chemical burns. We talked about chemical burns earlier on. Mr. Jones here. It's. clearly right here, burn, I would think that would follow your burns of most kinds, right? Wouldn't just be fire burns or gasoline burns of some kind.
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And I'm going to ask you to look through those. Tell me when you've had a chance to look through. Did you get a chance to go through all that?
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Yes.
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In a general sense, are those photographs of the exterior and interior of your house, your residence at 4300, 4300, that north bottom room, is that what they generally are?
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I would say that that would be the way that the patient would interpret that when I asked her the yes or no question. Thank you.
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Yes.
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And did those photographs show what you saw on November 9th, 2021, when you were in the residence and as you were going in?
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And if you go down to the category for post-assault hygiene activity, Down the second one, over to the right, ate or drank? Is that a yes or a no?
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A slap, a stack, if you will.
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Yes.
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Your Honor, we'd ask that those exhibits be introduced into evidence and leave given to publish them during the course of the rest of the questioning.
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Your Honor, any objection? Excuse me, what exhibits were there, Your Honor? 80, 81, and the ones that they own? 35 through 50, then 80 and 83. No objection, Your Honor.
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Yes, she drank.
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And that was previous to coming, obviously previous coming to the hospital, and maybe even at the hospital, true? Correct. And that states bay water, Bailey's on ice. So obviously watering Bailey's on ice.
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Yeah.
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Up on the screen is People's Exhibit 35, and actually you have a monitor there. It should be on the monitor as well. Can you tell us what this is?
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That's my home.
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True. Correct. And you also did a drug facilitated sexual assault.
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And you talked about the garage door. Is this the garage door that you were talking about?
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Then you looked at her physical injury.
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Yes.
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And you said when you got there, the garage door was open. Is that what we see here?
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Yes.
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And you said there were 10 things lying on the floor.
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DFSA. And that category holds subcategories loss of memory.
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Yes.
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And there wasn't a car in the garage. Is that correct?
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That's correct.
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Why did the fact that there wasn't a car in the garage and the garage door being open at 6 p.m. at night trouble you, concern you?
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And that was a no. Correct. Along with loss of consciousness.
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Well, my wife, Tina, drove the car, the Toyota Avalon, that would normally be parked there. And... Of course, the car was gone, and then I noticed the door was kicked open.
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nausea, and vomiting, and drug and alcohol use, correct? Correct. No. And so if you proceed on page four of step two, or excuse me, I'm sorry, page five of step two, I want to touch base on pertinent medical issues for forensic lab as it's in your documentation here.
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And we'll get to that in a minute. You said there was also some tire marks. Can you tell me where you saw those tire marks?
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Is that right? That's right. Did you also document those physical injuries? I did. Both in paper form and photographically?
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They were there by the bush there to the right of the garage.
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All right.
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We'll put up on the screen People's Exhibit 36.
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In pertinent medical history for forensic lab box, it has last menstrual period with a date and sexual contact within three days other than sexual assault. Correct. Correct. And last menstrual period, obviously unknown. 77 years old. True. True. And then you go down to the next sentence, sexual contact within three days other than sexual assault, excluding sexual assault claimed on 11-9-21.
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Are these the tire marks that you're talking about?
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Yes.
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And had those tire marks been in that part of the yard when you left that work?
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because on November 9, 2020, boy, she was kidnapped by the defendant, she was robbed by the defendant, and she was brutally and violently separated by the defendant. The defendant left Tina bruised and battered. He left her bleeding on the floor, her stand, emotionally and physically scarred, until she would die 33 days later on December 12, 2021.
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No. You told us that you also noticed that the door in the garage was broken.
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Is that right?
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Yes.
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Here on the screen, we have People's Exhibit 37. You talked about these items lying on the floor. Let's talk about those first. The items on the floor, was that unusual? Was that what the garage looked like when you left that for you?
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No.
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Tell us what was different.
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I mean, that would read what box need check mark.
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Well, the car would have been there, and those items there on the floor of the garage there would not have been there. The car would have been there.
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I'm sorry, I don't understand.
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Sexual contact within three days other than sexual assault. Obviously, you had to ask her this box, ask her this information. She stated yes or no in accordance to sexual contact within three days other than the alleged assault, right? Correct. And that was yes.
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Also in your garage, did you have some power tools?
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Yes.
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Specifically, did you have a chainsaw and a hedge trimmer?
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Correct. Did you take several photographs that reflected those injuries that you observed on November 9th, 2001? I did. I'm going to hand you what you marked as 19 through 32.
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Yes.
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Was the chainsaw and hedge trimmer in that garage when you left that morning?
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Yes.
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And as to anal contact and oral contact and condom use, them are all three no, correct? Correct. I'd like to touch base on anal contact real quick. She states no, and this is in reference to sexual contact within three days other than sexual assault. We reviewed page seven, the anal exam, and you obviously put patient inclined to obvious bleeding rectum.
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Yes.
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When you came that night at 6 p.m., was the chainsaw and the hedge trimmer in that garage? No. I'm going to show you what's been marked as People's Exhibit 15. Do you recognize that?
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No. No hammers or tools?
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That's my chainsaw.
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Chainsaw that was not in that garage?
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Yeah.
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When you got there on November 9th at 6 p.m.?
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That's correct.
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I'm going to show you what's been marked as people's exhibit 16. Do you recognize that?
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That's my hedge trimmer.
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The hedge trimmer that was in that garage when you left that morning and was gone that night? Is that right?
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I understand this is consensual here in a pertinent medical history for forensic lab. That's consensual. But that does coincide with not having any bargains on anything, correct? I'm going to object to this point. The witnesses multiple times testified that she was not able to complete a complete assessment of the anal exam based on convictions and issues. But she didn't, sir.
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Yes.
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You also told us that there was a car missing from the garage. It was Tina's car.
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Yes.
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Can you tell me what make and model that car was?
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It was a 2018 Toyota Avalon.
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What color was it?
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It was white.
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Do you know the license plate for that? If you don't, that's fine. I just don't.
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It's ABS for American Builders Supply. I don't remember the numbers on it.
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All right, so we're going to open with a little objection. Anybody answer? I'll state that again. Hurt in medical history for forensic lab. She states no on anal contact. True. Right. And that would coincide with page seven of anal exam. Patient declined. No obvious bleeding from record. If you didn't have anal sex, you'd most likely not have any marks.
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But the first three letters were ABS, and then there was a number after.
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Yes.
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Now, you told us that when you came into the garage, you noticed that a door had been kicked in. Is this the door that you're talking about?
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Yes.
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And is this People's 38? It's up on the screen now. We're looking at a view of that door.
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Yes.
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Looks like there's some damage by the lock and by the... Handle, is that fair to say?
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This is outside of the sexual assault.
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Yes.
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Also looks like there's some footprints on the door.
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Yeah. But that does coincide with them, right? No more...
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Yes.
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Were those, was that door damaged like that when you left that morning for work?
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I'm not understanding.
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Go ahead. I apologize. I may be worded wrong. I'm a little bit out of tune with this. Continuing on page five in general exam, the beginning of general exam. I'm sorry. I probably should have started this the first time. In the beginning of general exam on page five of step two, it says large area of bloody mucus was surrounding blood. The tachy? Tachy?
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No.
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Were the footprints on the door when you left that morning for work?
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No.
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People's Exhibit 39, kind of an angle view of that same door, is that right, sir?
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Yes.
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Again, was the door damaged at the deadbolt and the handle like that?
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No.
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And if we look behind the door, it looks like there's a hole in the drywall where the door's been forced open.
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The TQI?
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TQI. I apologize again. Patient states carpet cleaner was sprayed into her mouth after assault. There are no other descriptions in a general exam. And these are cranial descriptions. Cranial diagram, right?
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That was not there.
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People said it was 40 close up of that door showing how violently it was kicked open. Was it like that that morning when you left?
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No.
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It was like that when you came home at 6 p.m.?
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It's a facial diagram?
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Yes.
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And it also shows the head, too. I would say there's no other, I guess you could, in the page eight, it shows the head in general. There's no other markup, it's true.
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When you came inside...
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And you walked through that door. You walked through the garage that we just saw, and you walked through that damaged door.
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And I ask you to take a moment and look. Have you seen those photographs? I have. And are those photographs, the photographs that you took, they documented the injuries that you observed? They are.
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Did you see someone sitting on the floor?
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I saw my wife sitting on the floor in tears. Tell me about that. You said she was in tears. Was she crying? She was crying, and she told me that they raped her. Objection, Your Honor. Grouch. Testimonial. Overruled.
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On the face?
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On anywhere on the head. Anywhere on the inside of the mouth?
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Nothing that I have noted.
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Nothing. Okay. These are very serious accusations, I think you can keep, correct? Correct. And you stated you are familiar with Ruth? Correct. And you're able to tell fresh Ruth from older Ruth? Correct. Could you give reports a brief description of, say, the coloring of fresh Ruth versus the coloring of older Ruth? Who's in the filling already?
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When you heard that from your wife, who you'd been with for 38 years, did you notice anything sitting on the floor in the area around?
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Well, she was sitting on a, I guess it was a blanket or a quilt. And did you notice anything about that quilt? There was blood on it.
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Fresh bruising will be more of a dark purple, as in healing bruising will be a brownish or yellow.
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Up on the screen is People's Exhibit 41. And if we can orientate ourselves, that door that you walked in, where would it be in relationship to this photo?
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And in the pictures, if I make, if I bring the picture of the hand back up on the screen, you see right here, all around here, here, and all around the neck area, that would be considered light yellowing, brownish.
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Where that walker is, it would be to the north of that. Yes.
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So if we're facing the picture, you're basically walking in from the left side of the picture, fair to say?
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It looks like just her skin color.
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Yes.
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I mean, if you say it looks like her skin color, then it should probably appear as if. Judging on that side of the question, if you want to ask your question as a witness, she can do it, but it appears as if it's her skin color, right? Yes. And are these two colors here in this area and this area different?
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And you said that you saw your wife, Tina, sitting on the floor on a quilt. Is that the area that you saw her?
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Yes, there in front of that green chair, yes.
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Did you also notice a spray can and a knife on the floor?
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On November 9th, 2021, Tina was driving home when it was starting to get dark. She started to have car trouble. She must have been so scared, like anyone.
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Yes.
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And we can see that spray can and that knife on the floor.
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Based on the lighting of the picture.
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Yes. People's Exhibit 42, a close-up view of... A blanket, some bloodstains, and the can? Yes.
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Clearly. Or just based on the picture? Yeah.
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I'm not understanding what you're asking.
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On the lower fingers here, if I use my left hand, on the lower finger here, it seems to be a normal skin color such as white.
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I want to talk about that spray can, that 409 Target spray can. Was that on the floor when you left at 6 o'clock that morning?
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And then if you get up here above the knuckle, right here, and back here on the hand, it seems to be yellow.
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Any objection?
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No. People, 81, showing blood on the floor. That was the blood that was coming from your wife?
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I think what you're seeing is a difference in lighting in the picture.
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Yes. And what part of her body was it coming from?
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22.
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It came from underneath her lower region of her body, specifically her genital region. Yes. People's 43. Can you tell us what we're looking at here? That is a railroad spike that was converted into a knife. Did that knife belong to you and Tina? It belonged to me, yes. Was it stored on the floor like that? No, it was stored in a drawer. Was it on the floor when you left that morning? No.
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Yes. You stated lower knee for bruising, correct?
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It just says left knee.
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But you, just a few moments back, you stated.
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Oh.
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By pointing out here, this appears to be, you know, the kneecap right here. You know, the kneecap here. Then you have the lower knee. I'd say it's quite a bit higher up on the knee, the lower, Drew.
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It's the knee.
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Are you, you can tell them honestly. Are you familiar with the fact that CL had a right total hip arthroplasty?
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You told us you walked in after you saw those things that you saw.
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You heard Tina say that they raped me.
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I ate her condition. She was crying. She appeared to be emotional to you? Yes, she did. Sobbing? Yes. Did she tell you that he was worried they were going to come back? Yes, she did.
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Hip joint replacement? If you jog your memory. I don't recall.
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Do you know what a total hip arthroplasty is? I'm going to object at this point. It seems facts, not evidence. It's the worst question just to ask. I'll overrule. That's If you may answer the question, do you know what a sole hip arthroplasty is?
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Because of that, what did you do?
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I went into the bedroom and I got a handgun. What did you do with that gun? I brought the gun out and I gave it to Tina. And then I got my phone and I called 911. After you called 911, did you ask Tina what had happened to her? Yes.
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John, I object. Grounds? The death has no relevance in this case. It, uh...
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Yes.
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Can you explain that to us, please? Objection. Relevant. Sustained. Sustained. It's obviously a hip replacement, Drew. Objection. Do you have a relevance? I don't know that it was a question.
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And did she tell you what had happened to her?
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She said they raped, they raped me.
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And did she tell you how the rape started?
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So, Mr. Young, any more questions for this witness?
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She told me that she was, um, driving home on Cook's lane and she got to the, um, front or Bonanzanga and Cook's lane and the lights were not on in the car. And, um, She stopped there at the stop sign, and there was a man came and helped, went to help her to turn the lights on, and he got in the car with her and drove off with her. In the car? Yes, in the car. Did she want to go with him? No.
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Yes, sir. Did you review any other reports other than your doctor's information? Did you maybe review Dr. Finster's reports or the overall reports to come to any other decisions in your termination? No. Mr. Jones, when you're ready with your question. Thank you.
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Can you tell us your name, please, and if you could spell your last name?
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Ada Kagumba, K-A-G-U-M-B-A.
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No, they are.
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And if I can get everybody here, I just want to make sure that microphone sometimes works better the closer you get to everybody. Dr. Kagumba, do you have a particular specialty that you practice in?
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After the man got in the car and took off with her? Did Tina tell you where they went? She said they went up into the bottoms, the north bottoms.
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Yes, obstetrics and gynecology.
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And how long have you done that?
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People's Exhibit 19, string 32 will be admitted without objection.
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25 years.
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I want to talk to you specifically about November 16, 2021.
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On November 16, 2021, I apologize. On November 16, 2021, did you meet with a patient by the name of Christina? Yes. Was that the first time that you ever met with her? Yes. What was the nature of why she was coming to see you?
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And did she tell you while they were in that area, north bottoms, what the man made her do to her top?
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Yes.
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What did Tina say that the man made her do to her top?
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Thank you, Your Honor. She must have been so scared as any woman would be, driving home at night with car trouble, alone on a dark bottom road, and no one to help her. But then a power started. How do you think she felt? Was she relieved? Did she think she was going to get help? Was she scared? Was something bad about to happen? But she was 77 years old.
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She said that he made her take her top off.
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And did she tell you that he made her take her top off so that he could touch her breasts?
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Yes.
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For all the follow-ups, what was the reason? It was a follow-up after being seen in the emergency department following a sexual assault.
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After this man did that to her, did Tina say that the man forced her to perform oral sex on him?
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And you're not talking about what she said to her, but did you talk to Tina about what happened? Yes.
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Yes.
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Did Tina tell you what she thought was going to happen to her?
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She told me that she thought that they were going to kill her.
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What was her emotional affect? How did she appear to you?
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Because she was worried they were going to kill her, what did she say to them?
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She appeared to be in shock. Describe death. It's as if she was watching something that had happened to her and that she couldn't believe had happened to her. She talked like it happened to somebody. Yes.
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The first photograph I want to put on the screen is People's Exhibit 19. And looking at People's Exhibit 19, can you tell us who that's a photograph of?
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She told me that she told them that she had some jewelry up at the house and some money.
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At some point, did she also tell you that the male had made a threat to her about what would happen if her husband... She said, he said that if your husband's there, I'm going to kill you both. Tina then told you that he went to the house.
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Almost like in the third person. Yes. Is that fair to say? Yes. Did you examine her?
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Yes.
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Now, you understood that the actual act would have occurred about a week before that, is that right? Yes. When you examined her, did you notice injuries and a state of heat? Yes. Were you also given the opportunity to look at photos that were taken by Nurse Jacqueline Oglesley all on November 9, 2021?
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Yes.
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No. You're sure about that? Objection, Your Honor. I asked if you'd sort this all out or not. Let me have some redirect. Just two questions, Your Honor. All right. Let's go ahead and do that then. Sir, your wife didn't go into specific details about her sexual assault or rape with you, did she? Specific details aren't a great detail, fair to say. No.
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And when they got to the house, what did Tina say happened in the garage?
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She said that the male and there was a female there, that they got into an argument.
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And during the argument, Tina was able to get away?
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Yes. Specifically, I'm going to hand you some photographs and I'm going to ask you if these are the photographs you had a chance to observe. I've gone through them.
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Tina went into the house and she locked the door. And when she locked the door, what did she say the male did? Well, she went into the bedroom on the east side of the house and went to look for the handgun. But the handgun, I had moved from the nightstand because we had grandchildren up there. And I was afraid one of those grandchildren were going to get a hold of that gun.
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Dr. Kuguba, I want to talk to you first about the injuries to the outside of her body. When you examined her, did you notice bruising in a healing state on November 16th of 2021? Yes. And is it that bruising that you observed consistent with the photographs that you've had an opportunity to observe as far as the locations of those bruises, her hands, her knees, her buttocks?
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So I put it up high where they couldn't get to it. Couldn't find it. She couldn't find the gun. What did the male do to the door? The mail kicked the door in. And after the mail kicked the door in, what did Tina say happened next? She said she told him where the jewelry was. It was in a chest of drawers there in the bedroom.
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Christine Lohman.
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Yes. Objection. You're off the ground. I don't believe this movement here can base her decision off of other photos that somebody else has taken. She obviously did not take her own photos or do her own assessment of record. Here's a based on another physician's assessment. I am a physician. I'm overruling the objections.
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Is that how she looked when you saw her in the evening hours? It is. You talked about some injuries, and I first want to talk about bruising. Did you notice a bruising on her body? I did. Was there bruising in multiple locations?
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Up on the screen, we have People's 48, which has been introduced into evidence. Tina had jewelry in the chest of drawers. Is this where that chest of drawers was that had Tina's jewelry?
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Yes. Was that what the chest of drawers looked like when you were there at 6 o'clock that morning before you went to work? No. And when you were in the home, was there jewelry missing from the house? No.
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She is simply looking at the photographs and is testifying that the injuries she observed in healing on November 16th were consistent with the injuries that are depicted in those exhibits. And so there's no statement or hearsay that she's testifying about. She's a very photographic picture. Well, the objection is overruled in the answer to the question.
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There was no jewelry missing?
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No.
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Okay. I apologize. At 6 o'clock when you got back after you had talked to Tina, was there jewelry missing then?
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Yes. Yes, there was. After Tina...
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told this person about the jewelry, did Tina say that that person then threw her down some stairs to the basement?
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Again, the injuries that you saw with her hands, her knees, the bruising on her buttocks, the inner parts of her body, consistent with what you observed in the photographs you've had the opportunity to see. Yes. And I want to be clear, on November 16, 2021, you were not working at the behest of law enforcement, is that right?
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Yes.
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And tell me what Tina said about the basement.
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She told him that there was a safe down the basement.
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Do you, in fact, have a safe in the basement?
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Yes.
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What did Tina say happened with the safe in the basement?
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They went to the safe to the basement, and there's a board that covers the face of it, And that was moved out of the way. And Tina didn't know the combination to it. So the male went to try to open it up with the knob on the safe.
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I was not working at the behest of law enforcement.
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You were not attempting to collect any evidence? No. You were concerned with your patient's medical history and medical? Yes. You've also had a chance to look at People's Exhibit 31 and 32, showing the Vaginal area of Christina Lohman on November 9, 2021.
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Is that right? Yes. Are the injuries that you saw in People's Exhibit 31 and 32 consistent with sexual assault in your medical?
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And when he tried to open it up with the knob on the safe and he wasn't able to get into it, what did Tina say to him?
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She said that the safe was wired to the police department. And now the police are going to be coming.
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Yes. Thank you, Dr. Tugumba. That's all the questions I have. Do you have any cross-examination questions for this witness?
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People's Exhibit 49, is this your basement?
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Yes.
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And you talked about, I see a gray door here. Is that the safe?
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Yes.
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You talked about a white cover. Is that what you see here?
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Your Honor, Just a few. Possibly one or two.
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Yes.
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With the white cover on that safe when you left that morning?
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It was in front of the door on the safe, yes.
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Dr. Anna Kaguba, you did observe, obviously, a week later, what could be potential marks from a sex assault or an assault in general, right? Yes. But they're not definitely from them occurrences, true? Yes. In fact, you have no factual determination that they were, other than one's declarants or one's statement stating that they may have had these issues upon your review of them, right?
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Again, here we see a different angle of that sink door. That's the sink you're talking about, right?
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Yes.
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The knob there, the handles there.
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Yes.
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After Tina told the male that the safe was wired to the police and the police were coming, did Tina say that the man took her back upstairs?
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Yes. And when he took her back upstairs, what did she say occurred upstairs by that chair? She said he raped her.
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There was.
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You mentioned that she shared with you that there was a male and a female in the house.
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Yes.
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Did she talk to you about the female and specifically that knife that we saw?
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Yeah, she talked about the female and how the female had threatened to kill her with that knife.
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I use the word fresh bruising. Do you know what I mean when I say that? A recent bruise. A recent bruise. In your training experience, have you been able to tell the difference between bruises that are relatively recent and bruises that are days and weeks old? I am. The bruising that you observed on Christina Longman on November 9th, did the bruising appear to be recent or false? It did.
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And Mrs. Quincy, nothing bad happens in Quincy, right? In Quincy, when you have trouble, people stop, they pull over, and they help you. But instead of a random act of kindness, the defendant and his accomplice showed up. They showed up to commit an act of violence, an act of terror. of rape, every woman's worst nightmare on a dark bottom road. The defendant forced his way into Tina's car.
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The patient told me what happened, and I believed that the injuries she sustained fit with what she told me.
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They fit, but they could be from other incidents also. True. They could. Thank you. You're obviously a doctor. I respect your level of profession. The vaginal cavities. Can you tell us a little bit about healing when it comes to the vaginal cavity?
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Tina went to the emergency room that night?
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Yes.
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And maybe a week later, she went to see her OBGYN, Dr. Ada, if I remember that right.
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Yes.
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And you were with Tina pretty much every day from November 9th to when she passed away on December 12th.
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Yes.
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Those last month of her life, was she in pain?
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I'm not sure what you mean exactly.
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Yes, she was.
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She hurt from the injuries that she suffered?
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I mean, I'm human being. I don't have a vagina, obviously. But the vaginal cavity is one of the quickest healing parts of my true. I don't know that to be true. You don't know that to be true. But it does heal pretty quickly.
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Yes, she did.
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Did you see bruises to her?
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I saw some bruises and she hurt a lot on her tailbone. It's hard for her to sit. Yes. Hard for her to stand. Yes. Was she having difficulty? Yes, Your Honor. Grounds? Testimonial.
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I'm not sure what you mean pretty quickly. Mom.
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Was she having difficulty eating or drinking because of the burns in her mouth?
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Yes.
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Is it fair to say she was in pain until she died?
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The marks, when you did your exams, what stage did the marks appear to be as far as the healing state?
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Yes, she was.
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For the record, I'm having the bailiff bring out people's 50 and 51. Tell me when you have a chance to look at those. Do those photographs show that white Toyota Avalon that you, I'm sorry, 51 and 52. I apologize. People's 51 and 52. Do those show that white Toyota Avalon?
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Almost healed after a week, yes.
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And you've obviously seen sexual assault victims, correct?
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Yes.
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And if, say, I use this as an example. Say if a person was... penetrated with something the diameter of this cup. The diameter of this cup here is pretty decent size. It's pretty big. If somebody would... Judge, I apologize. I have to object. We're making a record here. He says a cup, and he says pretty big. I think the appellate court's going to want something more definite than pretty big.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Yes, it belongs to American Builders Supply.
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The company car that she drove?
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Yes.
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Your Honor, we'd ask that peoples 51 and 52 be introduced and published to the jury. Any objection?
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No, sir. Do you want people to be admitted without objection and be published?
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Except the front of the car and then the license plate, like you talked about, CVS.
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Yes. And peoples 52, the back of the car, singles. Yes.
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You can be more definite in describing for the record what cup you're using. The approximate size, Mr. Yon, will have a clear record per quart. Once again, I take this cup here. The cup's diameter is, I'd say, three, three and a half inches wide. If somebody was to drink by a cup, would that leave excessive markings? and probably most likely not be almost healed a week later.
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Going up to Bela, hand you people's 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 63, and 63. Have you had a chance to look at them?
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Yes. Let's start with people's exhibit 57. Do you recognize what's in that photograph? I'm going to ask you about it there on your photograph you've got in hand. Okay, hang on a minute. Okay, yes.
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Do you recognize that watch and bracelet?
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Yes.
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And who did that watch and bracelet belong to?
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She wasn't penetrated with a cup. She was penetrated with a penis.
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They belonged to Tina. Your Honor, we'd ask that People's Exhibit 57 be introduced into evidence and published. Any objection? Absolutely not, Your Honor. People's Exhibit 57 is admitted without objection. It may be public.
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Your penis.
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Yes, she told me.
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She told you, so that's 100% positive. Almost as if you were there, true?
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As her physician, I believed what she told me. That's my job.
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This watch and this bracelet belong to your wife, Tina?
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Yes.
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You believe it, but it's not a fact, truly.
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Have you seen her wear that watch and that bracelet on multiple occasions?
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Yes.
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True.
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It's what she told me and what I documented. Thank you. Thank you. No further questions?
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If you could look at the next picture, people 58. In that picture, there is a watch and a pen. Do you see that pen in the middle of the picture?
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No, sir. Not at all. Mr. Jones, any further direct, redirect?
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Yes.
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Do you recognize that watch and pen?
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No, thank you, Your Honor.
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Yes. God, we'd ask that people 58 be admitted into evidence and published to the jury. Any objection? Absolutely not, Your Honor. No objection. People's Exhibit 58 will be admitted and may be published to the jury. That watch? Yes.
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Had you seen Tina wear that watch?
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Yes.
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That hit. Can you tell me about that hit? How do you recognize that hit?
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If anybody has ever watched Star Trek before. I've seen Star Trek. We bought that at the Star Trek display out at the Las Vegas Hilton in Texas. I don't remember what year it was.
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The shape on that is Star Trek.
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Yes.
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It's the badge that the officers wear on them.
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Yes.
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And you and Tina were Star Trek fans?
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We were Star Trek fans.
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Can you look at the next picture, People's Exhibit 59? Do you recognize the items in that picture?
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The bruising that you saw on Christina Longman, did you take a photograph? I did. Here on Exhibit 20, we have a photograph of Ms. Longman's knee, is that correct?
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Yes.
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And did those belong to Tina as well?
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Yes, they did.
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We'd ask People's 59 to be admitted into evidence.
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Any objection? No. No, sir. The post-exhibit 59 will be admitted without objection and may be published to the jury.
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First, on the left side of this picture, there's a, I guess, brown, mystical color, what you call that, gold. Gold purse. Do you recognize that gold purse?
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Yes.
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Who did that gold purse belong to?
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It belonged to Tina.
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Had you seen her wear that purse?
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Yes.
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In the middle of the picture, we see checks, and it looks like an ABS. Is that, you recognize that check?
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Yes. That's from American Builders Supply.
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Your business?
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Yes.
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In fact, there's a P.O. Box, Quincy, Illinois. Do you recognize that P.O. Box and the Quincy, Illinois address?
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Yes.
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Your business?
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Yes.
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It's made payable to who?
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To Tina, Tina Lama.
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Your wife?
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Yes.
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And at the bottom of this, we see a voter ID card. Do you recognize the name, Christine Lohman, at the bottom of that?
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Yes.
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Is that your wife?
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Yes.
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There's an address on that voter ID card, 4300 North Bottom Road, Quincy, Illinois. Do you recognize that address?
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Yes, that's my home.
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And here there's a bag of jewelry. We showed you that bag of jewelry earlier. In preparation for trial, is that right?
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Tina thought it was about taking money and jewelry from her. She thought the defendant was going to kill her, so she told her she had more stuff back at her house. The defendant's accomplice followed them and hurled another car. But the defendant was not just satisfied with money or jewelry. The defendant wanted more from the 77-year-old great-grandmother.
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Yes.
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Did you recognize that jewelry in that bag?
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Yes.
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And who did that jewelry belong to?
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60?
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60. Hang on a minute here. Yes. Specifically, is there a rosary in the middle of that? Injection, Your Honor. Grounds? Bleeding. All right. Overruled. Again, it's foundational. Specifically, is there a necklace in the middle of that picture? There's a rosary in there.
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That's correct.
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And can you tell us what we observe in that photograph?
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Well, I know it's a rosary. I just didn't want to use that word. So, is there a rosary in that picture?
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Yes.
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Did you recognize that rosary?
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Yes.
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Who did that rosary belong to?
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It belonged to Tina's. We'd ask that people 60 be introduced into evidence in public. Any objection? Objection, Your Honor. All right. Crowns? It's my jewelry. It's my rosary. All right. I'm going to admit people's exhibit 60 over objection. Had you seen Tina with that rosary before? Yes.
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It appears to be a fresh bruise on her knee.
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People 61 is a close-up of that same rosary. You reckon again the same rosary?
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Yes. We'd ask that 61 be introduced and published. Any objection? Once again, the same objection, Your Honor. Any grounds for the objection? It's my jewelry. It's my rosary. Commit the people's exhibit 61 over objection.
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In the center part underneath?
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When you last saw Tina with that rosary, was it broken like that?
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Yes.
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No.
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I'm going to have you look at people's agubits, 62 and 63, and ask if you recognize both of those.
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People's Exhibit 21. We have photographs of Christine Malone with his left hand. Is that right? Correct. Can you tell us what we're looking at here and what you noticed in your sexual assault examination?
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62 and 63? Yes. Yes, that's Tina's purse.
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And again, the property in that purse, you recognize as belonging to Tina?
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Yes, what I can see, yes. Your Honor, we'd ask that people 62 and 63 be introduced and published to the jury. Any objection? No, Your Honor. People's Exhibits 62 and 63 are admitted without objection and may be published to the jury.
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Again, the gold or brown purse that you had seen your wife wear this time, people's 62, correct?
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Yes.
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And people's 63 saying the gold and brown purse is U.S. currency inside the purse.
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And then the jewelry, the check, and the voter ID card that you went to the summit, correct? Yes. Yes.
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Were all the things that we just saw in the photograph, were all those things missing on November 9th at 6 p.m.
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when you arrived at the house? Yes. And were they, to the best of your knowledge, all in the house when you left for work that morning? Yes. Before November 9th, 2021, have you ever heard the name Bradley on the floor?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
No.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Have you ever seen Bradley Young before?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
No.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Have you ever had any contact with Bradley Young?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
No.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Have Bradley Young ever been in your house?
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No.
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No. No. No.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
No. No.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The ever-touching thing in your house where it defiles would leave that safe. Have you ever touched that safe to your knowledge?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
No.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The car that we saw that Mike told you to have on before November 9th, 2021, to your knowledge, had Bradley Yon ever driven that car?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
No.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Have you ever had possession of that car?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
No.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Would Tina give him that car?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
No.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Would Tina give him her purse?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Objection, Your Honor. Crowned? The witness does not know whether or not such person, Tina, CL, gave him the car or has ever been in the home or what Tina may have done outside of his presence. All right. I will overhaul the eviction as to the question asked regarding to this witness's, to the best of his knowledge, head. Bradley Young ever been to the house or know Keaton Lohman?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It appears that she had fresh bruising on her hand.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
As the defendant drove Tina's car back toward the house as they were being followed by the accomplice, the defendant reached over, grabbing Tina, and forced the penis into her mouth. When they arrived at Tina's house, Tina was able to get away. She was able to run inside, lock the door, while the defendant and the woman with him, his accomplice, were in the garage. But the defendant wasn't done.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The state will sustain the objection as to the vehicle and purse questions. Just the state reframe. The best of your knowledge, did your wife give the vehicle to Bradley Young?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Talking about discoloration, bruising from the bottom of the hand to the top and then across the top of the hand. Correct. And even on the left side of the left hand. Correct. People's Exhibit 22, also a photograph that you took showing both the left and right hands of Christina Lohman. Correct.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
No.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The best of your knowledge, did your wife give the purchase to Bradley Young?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
No.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
To the best of your knowledge, did she give her voter ID card to Bradley Long?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
No.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
To the best of your knowledge, did she give her Star Trek pin that you and she bought at Boston Vegas to Bradley Long?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
She loved that. No. Her watch, did she give that to Bradley Long to the best of your knowledge? No. Thank you, sir. That's all the questions I have. Mr. Young? Mr. Zeman? Mr. Young. Yes, sir. Mr. Smith? Yes. I apologize for having to be here today. However, that is not under my control. I understand it's a difficult time for you and your family. I'm sure you prefer not to be here.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Jackson, Your Honor, I need to ask a question. All right. Mr. Yon, if you could ask your questions of this witness. You stated your name is Timothy Schmidt, obviously, correct? Yes. And you're in occupation. You're 60. I'm 66 years old. And your occupation is American Builders Supply, which you own. Yes.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
um and obviously your relation to cl was is was husband correct yes um you stated that you've known cl for approximately or been with bit we're we're engaged in relationship with cl for approximately 36 years true yes and been married for two yes um
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So, you own your own business, true?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes. You're obviously a very smart man, educated. I will not take that from you. Your memory is pretty swell, would it not be? Pretty good.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I can do that. You do remember the evening of November 9th? Yes. And you stated that
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You left work sometime around a bit after 5 o'clock. Yes. Could you determine maybe potentially 15-minute range of how late, the length of that? Objection, Your Honor. Asked and answered. The witness said it was around 5. Around 5. So what will the objection he may answer if he knows? Yes. Would you repeat that again?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Could you give a close description of the approximate time within maybe five or ten minute range of the time of leaving your home? I mean, excuse me, leaving your place of business. It would have been sometime after five o'clock. Maybe 515, 520. Well, it probably wouldn't have been that late. It would have been closer to right after five o'clock. Okay, so it's 505, 510. Yes. Thank you.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And, uh, you stated that you were at farm and home for approximately 40 minutes, correct? I was at farm and home for, for some time. I don't have the exact amount of time it was. Yes. And then you wrote, uh, you, you, upon leaving farm and home, you arrived at your house, your residence approximately 6 PM a bit after. Yes.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Um, And you observed tire marks also in your yard. Yes. They weren't normal. No, thank you.
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And again, can you tell us what you noticed in your examination of her left and right hand and her left forearm?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You stated what the garage looked like that morning. Mr. Smith, was the garage any different than when you arrived home? Well, the car was in the garage when I went to work. Okay, and so she was still at home when you went to work? Yes. Upon arriving home, did you pull into the garage? Yes, I believe I did.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
He wasn't going to let Tina get away. He kicked in the door to her house, breaking down the door, leaving a shoe print, and the nightmare for Tina continued. The defendant stole money and jewelry from inside Tina's house. He pushed her down the stairs and he tried to get into her basement safe. Then the defendant bent Tina over a chair in her living room. He shoved his penis into her vagina.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And you parked probably, possibly, potentially in the parking space you normally use, which is to the right of that pile. Thank you. And... could you tell us maybe when you noticed that door, the inner door that had been kicked in, did you notice that maybe before you got out of your truck or instantly? I didn't notice it until I got up to it.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Okay. Thank you.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
But it was open, correct? Yes. Mr. Smith, I apologize for having to go into these details again. I'm sure you did not want to rehash them. Um, You walked inside and your wife's CO was sitting on the floor, right? Yes. And as stated, that was in front of the chair? Yes. And she was sitting on the quilt, as you said? Yes. That was on the quilt? She was sitting on the quilt, yes. Okay, thank you.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There was fresh bruising to all parts.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Do you remember what your wife was wearing by any chance? No, I don't. She was wearing some tackle. She had some clothing on, but I don't remember exactly what she had on, no. Pants, shirt, all? I'm not sure exactly what she had on. You don't remember her having bottoms on? Objection, Your Honor. Asked and answered. The witness has said he doesn't remember.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Again, looking at discoloration of her right hand and up to her right wrist and her left hand. Upper left forearm, fair to say.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
We've gone at it three different ways, Mr. Yon, so I'm going to sustain the objection. The witnesses testify as he does not recall what she had on. Thank you, Your Honor. Mr. Smith, I understand you're in home building, American Builders Supply. You're probably educated in home building and whatnot. Could you tell us approximately how far from the door that chair might be?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'm not sure exactly how far that is from the front door. Maybe 20 feet, 15 feet. It would be farther than that. And upon walking in, you state that you observed a can and a knife on the floor, correct? When I got into the house, I saw the can and the knife on the floor, yes. Could you describe, perhaps, the location of the cannon at night? They were over in the kitchen, kitchen area.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Upon answering, could you give a recollection of the events that occurred upon your answer? Judging calls for an end. Overruling me to answer the question. Would you repeat the question? If you would, would you relate once more the turn of events as you entered the home? Would... What procedure you took, how you went about the situation? I walked into the house.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's correct.
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Was the bruising contained to her upper body or was there bruising on her lower body as well?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I saw my wife sitting on the floor in tears, and she told me they raped me. And then you went on it to find a firearm for it? I went in, and I got a firearm. She told me that she was told that they would be back. Okay, and that's that firearm you... Where did you retrieve that firearm from? I got it from the bedroom. That would have been... Closet in the bedroom. The south bedroom, correct?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
One night in 2021, Christine's life was changed in the most horrific way. A man named Bradley Yon and a female accomplice terrorized her first in her car, then in her home. Yon's accomplice, 33-year-old Karen Blackledge, pled guilty to home invasion and criminal sexual assault and received two 20-year sentences. She will have to serve 85% of that time.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It would be a bedroom on the east side of the house. Where the chest of drawers was. Yes, sir. And then you proceed back to your wife and you gave her the firearm for protection, correct? Yes. Then you... I believe in your statement, you stated that you then called the police. Law enforcement. I called 911, yes. Do you remember right about what time that may have been?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There was bruising on her lower body as well.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
How long it was after you arrived? It wasn't very long. Could you give a approximate minute length? It was only a few minutes. So you... You obviously talked to her for a small amount of time, retrieved the firearm, walked to her, and then you went out to retrieve your phone from your truck, correct? Yes. She needed an ambulance or she needed medical attention. Okay.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Exhibit 23 shows both the left and right knee of Christina Lohman. We saw a close-up of the right knee already. Here is the left leg. Can you tell us what you noticed in your training experience as a sexual assault nurse examiner?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
In your statement, you stated that your wife was drinking some type of liquid when you arrived home. I'm going to object at this point with this statement. Witness didn't testify to that, so I'm not sure what statement he's referring to. Sustained. Mr. Schmidt, you made a statement, correct? A video statement? What's that? You made a video recorded statement, correct?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
He shoved his penis into her mouth.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
With officers of Adams County Sheriff's Department? Objection, Your Honor. The improper impeachment has not been confronted with that statement. Sustained. And you stated you don't remember the clothing you were wearing? Objection, asked and answered. Sustained. At the time calling 911, could you tell us approximately how long it was before officers arrived? To your best estimated guess.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I don't know exactly. It wasn't very long. They responded pretty quickly. And you made that call at 6.09 p.m.? That's true? I don't remember exactly what time it was. You stated that C.L., your wife, said that she had been robbed. sexually assaulted and hijacked.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Could you potentially go into a bit more detail as to what she stated to you upon the minutes of being there with the police or before you made the time? She told me she had been raped. And I went and got the phone, and I went out in the garage, and I called the police department. I called 911. Okay. So you made that call from the garage, or did you? I made it from outside the house.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And then when the defendant was finished using music, his twisted purposes disappeared. he sprayed her mouth and body with carpet cleaner. While the defendant was doing all of these things, robbing her, assaulting her, his accomplice, the woman that was with him, was holding a knife and threatening Tina's life. After the defendant finished robbing Tina of her dignity, he fled.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I went out to see if anybody else was coming back, and I called police. I called 911. Out in your garage? Out in the garage. Mr. Smith, is it possible that that be false information? Objection, Your Honor. Claimed. Your Honor, there is a 911 call that shows... Objection, Your Honor. The objection's been sustained. You'll need to ask your questions to this witness.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Then it was a very brief conversation. Correct. Objection, Your Honor. Which conversation? The conversation with your wife. Hold on. When there's an objection, I'll need to address either sustained or overruled. And Mr. Young, I'm going to sustain the objection and ask you to ask a more specific question. Are you aware that your wife, CL, stated that you were at home? Objection, Your Honor.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There was bruising to the Knee as well.
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Improper appeasement. And that will be sustained. The floor plan of your home where CL was located, sitting on that floor... And it pictures that it appeared to be a very slim path in between the chair and the trash can over the wall. If you may, I assume that path was clear for you to walk through in order to retrieve that gun? Isn't that better? Eastern better? Yes.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Not enough for me to get through. Nothing else before there, right? Well, the... The cleaner was on the floor, but it wasn't right there in the hallway where I walked through. No. All right. So the hallway was clear of debris, trash, clothing, or anything else that may have obstructed your path to this room to get to this gun besides the fan and cleaner, correct?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Both. Both of them.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And again, that bruising appeared in your transcripts to be relatively... Correct.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I walked straight into the east bedroom and retrieved the firearm. Your Honor, would you direct the witness to ask you the question, please? If you could rephrase the question, maybe he's not understanding what you're asking. That walkway that you had to walk through, which is in between the chair and the trash can, they're in the pictures that we observed. I believe exhibit 45 and 42.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's a very similar pathway, Mr. Smith. I'm assuming the walkway was clear of grease, trash, clothing, or anything else that may have obstructed your path to this room to get to this guy, Greg, besides the key. I believe there were some other items there on the floor, but it did not obstruct me from going in there. Thank you.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Was there also...
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Upon calling 911, you said you were in the garage when you called 911. Did you remain in the garage until police arrived, waiting for them? No, I went back into the house. And could you tell us how you proceeded from that point on? I checked on my wife to see if she was okay, and I looked out the windows to see if anyone was coming.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
bruising and injuries to the patient's, to Christina Lohman's buttock. There was. The next slide is going to be a black slide because of the nature of the photograph. It's Fecal Exhibit 24, if we ever go out to look. Do you feel people's Exhibit 24 is correct? Correct. It's a photograph of Christina Lohman's buttocks and upper part of her thigh, should we say? Is that right? Correct.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So you were potentially back, or I'll reword that, so you weren't back as much through the windows, correct? Yes. Do you have any idea what windows in front of your home that would allow officers coming? There's a set of windows there in the kitchen. in front of the sink that you can look out to the north of the house. A single set or a double? It's two windows.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Are you sure you did not stand there holding her hand? Objection, Your Honor. You're staying. Mr. Smith, can you describe the item here that I can call specifically having the same age of age here? Objection, Your Honor. Valid. A sustained histrionic, you can direct your question to a specific chair and narrow it down for him so he can give you the answer you're looking for.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There is a green chair, a plant chair, that your wife, C.O., wants to have a big secret in front of when you mentioned Bob Grevin. Yes. And do you have any of all some of the items at that time that were in the vicinity of that chair as far as furniture, maybe from their places?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Well, there would have been an ottoman that would have been off to the side, and there was a table between that chair and another chair. Would it be safe to say that you were right in front of that table? Or was you right in front of the table at the time? It was moved out of the way, but I don't remember exactly where it was at.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
He fled with Tina's purse. He fled with her jewelry. He took her money. He fled with Tina's car. He evened Tina's rosary. Then he went across the river to Hannibal and he played video poker. When Tina's attempt arrived home, he found Tina on the floor crying and bleeding, crying that she'd been raped and her body. Next to Tina was the knife that her life had been threatened with.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You said you were back and forth to your wife when you found your wife to the window. When you were at your wife's side, what did you do to the best of your knowledge or memory? I gave her a hug. You gave her a hug. Mr. Smith, you stated that right next to the chair in the center of the floor was a can of beer. In the exhibit, number 42, it appeared to be
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
somewhat right there dead center of the aisle going towards the eastern bedroom. When you walked back and forth there, you did not disturb that game by any chance? No, not, not, no. You should, uh, there's a possibility that you can go. So we can look pretty calm before calling 911 or before it peaks around. Is that the situation? No. It's not. I called 911. So you didn't Objection, Your Honor.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Asked and answered. Sustained. Mr. Stenner, are you the only person identified on the 9-1-1 call? Objection, Your Honor. Speculation and relevant. Mr. Stenner, I don't know how the witness would know who was identified on the 9-1-1 call. Your Honor, you do the 9-1-1 call. And again, the objection sustained. I don't know how he would know if he's the only one identified on the 911 call.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And during the time of 911 call in the garage, he was assessed unsolicited by yourself, right? There was no one else there. No, it was me. Thank you. This would kind of, if I may, pledge criminal acts, something you'll never forget, right? No, I will never forget it. And you're assured by your dead wonder that you have to send your honor to the state.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Schmidt, I'm confused as to the answers I'm asking about this 911 call.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Could I introduce the 911 call, please? Is he asking me, Your Honor? Is there any objection? Well, Your Honor, there's no foundation for the 911 call. This witness has not been... So, yes, we object to the 911 call being played without the proper foundation by this defendant. So, Mr. Young, if you'll lay the foundation for introduction of the 911 call with this witness.
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Sorry, there's a court report you've got to see, sir. And that photograph shows a bruising and abrasions to other legs of the body. Is that fair to say? That's correct. Governor, if I could have the bailouts approach the jury based on the nature of that photograph and pass that to the jury.
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Your Honor, the foundation is Mr. Snake has stated that he made a 911 call. He's obviously called... I believe that foundation is enough. Finding that is not enough foundation. When police arrived, your wife, she had something on top. I'm not sure. I don't think she, she, she has something on top, but nothing on her bottom.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And, uh, she did not move from that location, right? No.
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So essentially she was bare of clothing. Yes. Do you recall how it is that she was removed from that floor and that she got up from the floor? No. You do not recall the deputies having to? Objection, Your Honor. The witness has already testified. He doesn't know how she got up off the floor. It's a cross-examination, so overall, you may ask the question.
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Do you, Mr. Smith, recall the deputies having to assist her in getting help to the floor?
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Or is it a possibility she just remained there? She was on the floor for a while.
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I'm not sure. I don't know how she got up. To your recollection, could you tell us the secret events after the arrival of law enforcement? Enforcement. I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question. To your best recollection and remembrance, could you tell us the sequence of events that happened upon the first arrival of Walker? I don't remember all the details with it, no.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
They did go over and deceive my wife. And you were present, correct? I was there, yes. Did you tell us where you were when you had a stitcher down? I don't remember. Let me see if I can get what I've got. I assume they did a quick search of your home to make sure there was no potential threat to the right door. Is he secure, though? No, I don't remember.
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Yes. Publish that directly through juror observation fashion photo.
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Mr. Smith, do you know any name of the first responder? No. And are you associated or familiar with any of these officers that were at your home this night? No. You know none of them? No. You're not aware of or familiar with Mr. Wagner, Sheriff Wagner, or Chief Deputy Sam Smith, or Mr. Goodwin? No. Do you remember speaking to an officer in his lodge about an important issue concerning this matter?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So you're on People's Existence 25, the lower part of Christina Lowen's thighs, backside of her thighs.
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Your Honor, I have to object to that. I will sustain the objection. You're asking this witness to decide what you might be thinking was an important matter. He may not agree with that. So if you want to rephrase your question. I apologize. I just don't want to leave her. Well, in cross-examination, that's exactly what you're supposed to do, Mr. Yon, but go ahead.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Tina gave her, Tim, her husband, gave Tina, because Tina was so terrified the defendant and his accomplice were going to come back. And he called 911. Tim asked Tina to tell him what happened. And she relived that nightmare again. As she told him how she had been violated, how she had been robbed, how she had been left bloody and bruised on that floor.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Do you remember speaking to a deputy, specifically a female deputy, About your cards, your bank accounts, your monetary value in your garage. No. And you remained at your home until about what time? The best you remember? I don't remember. Or were you there the rest of the night? No, I went to the hospital. My wife went to the hospital and I went there after that.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
My wife went to the hospital, and I drove there on my own. Thank you. And your wife went to the hospital to collect evidence. Objection, Your Honor. Speculation. Sustained. Is it true that your wife initially did not want to go to the hospital? I don't remember what she said. I don't know. There was a 911 call. There was a 911 call.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
If I may, I'd like to object real quick. For the previous time, I had copies of 24 and 26. I spoke to Ms. Keck earlier, telling her that the numbers were changed on them. And she took the copies I had, and I have not been given copies back since to observe.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Thank you.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So there were no medical emergency technicians ready? No. Thank you. You did not recall her diagnostic medical service? No. However, at a later time, you did go to the hospital with your wife. Yes, you did. Just a few. I went to the hospital, yes. You went to the hospital by yourself or? I went by myself. You did not take her? I did not take her, no. I think.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Smith, these claims placed forth, how would you view them? Injection, Your Honor, relevant, distinct. You stated that your wife claims she was raped, right? Yes, she said she was raped. And that was the only thing she told you at the time, correct? Yes. You've testified to jewelry being your lives to several other issues. Mr. Schmidt, is that reasonable to do it?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Did she feel ashamed about what had happened to her? Yes. And she didn't want to go to the hospital because she was ashamed of what had happened. Is that fair to say? I object, Your Honor. I withdraw the question, Your Honor. The question is withdrawn. The jury should disregard any further recross based upon the questions just asked. Mr. Young? No, Your Honor. Thank you, Mr. Jones. No step down.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Is it in your reasonable belief? Is it logical of any human being to deny services such as medical services and to not have them come to the scene? Objection, Your Honor. Speculation irrelevant. Objection sustained. Can you rephrase the question? No, I don't want to rephrase the question. Obviously not.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Did your wife, in reference to the knife, did your wife maybe explain to you what time male or female were able to gain access to this knife? No. Earlier, you stated that she told you, related to you that she was able to run into the house and the male and the female were in an argument. She was able to run into the house and make it to the bedroom and to defend it.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
myself, lest you have come in and demanded your rent and money? She said she ran into the bedroom and, yeah, she said that the defendant, the man that came into the house, wanted to know where the jewelry was at. You also stated that she related to you that she told the suspect Potentially defended that she had money at home, right? That she would give them? Yes.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So she sent copies of these photographs, and she sent these, mentioned these photographs, and she said she sees them. And first step, we took those to him at one point and showed us these photographs. And there's no one searching for these. She knows it's photographs, and she sees them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And she didn't reference jewelry at the time? She said she had jewelry and she had money at the house. Mr. Smith, briefly, briefly one more time. Could you relay the actions that your wife stated that happened to her? Objection. Asked and answered. We've covered this, I think, three times now. Sustained the objection. Asked and answered.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
For the weeks after her assault, Tina was in pain, both emotional pain and physical pain. She never had the opportunity to recover because on December 12, 2021, Tina's heart broke. Tina won't be able to take that witness in. She won't be able to tell you what the defendant and the accomplice did to her.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You've also stated previously early on in your testimony that your wife relayed to you that she was thrown downstairs, correct? Yes. Moments ago, you just said she was only raped. No. I will strike the comment by Mr. Young and will instruct the jury to disregard such.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Young will be cautioned to ask the questions of the witness and not to attempt to testify or make argument until the appropriate time. Your wife stated that in the collar, the male reached over and grabbed her, I believe, was finally her. And then she placed his penis in her mouth.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Correct? No. It's not.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So she never told you that her mouth placed his penis in her mouth anywhere in Clareport? I'm sorry, would you start over with that again? In your earlier testimony, you stated that your wife relayed to you that the metal in the car before arriving to the home reached over and was touching her, finally her, and then proceeded to put his penis in her mouth. Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And was that, are you aware of where that may have been? Were they stopped? Were they still driving? I don't know. And that mental suspect stated, if your husband's there, I'm going to kill you both. Correct? Yes, she said that. Mr. Schmidt, I don't know. There's not only one firearm in your home, right? In fact, there's several, right? There is more than one firearm in my house, yes.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And when the grandkids are not around, as you said, you try to keep them out of reach of grandkids. These firearms are randomly placed in the home, right? I never said that. Thank you. And Tina did not, excuse me, I apologize, CL did not tell you where she was at at the approximate time when Neil came through the door? She did not tell me exactly what time that was, no.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Your Honor, that's irrelevant right at this moment. I'm entitled to have that here at the moment. I've had them for the last year until just about an hour and a half ago. I'd like to view them too. I'd like to view them, but I need to. Well, Mr. Young, I'm going to overrule your objection.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
She did not give you an approximate location as to where she was in the house? Well, she ran into the bedroom. Now, after she locked the door, now exactly how long that took... And I don't know. It couldn't have taken very long to run from the door into the bedroom. And your wife is, she's a 77-year-old woman, I understand. Wow. And she had any surgical operations such as hip replacements?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes, she had a hip replacement. And is she apt to run often? Well, no, she didn't run, but this fine. I observed a walker at your home. You stated there's a walker, an assistant device for people who tend to have issues walking. At times, she did use a walker, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Upon being thrown down the stairs in a violent fit, a violent rage, as that does not happen, friendly like, or as a play of sports, upon being thrown down the stairs, did she state any further events in reference to proceeding further after that? Would you repeat that?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
After being thrown down the stairs, she did not describe to you what happened after that, besides the fact that they went safe, correct?
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Yes.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Instead, her husband will tell you what Tina told him that night when he found her crying and bleeding on their living room floor. about what happened on November 9th, 2021, but you will get to see the photographs that were taken at Blessing Hospital by the nurse, Jacqueline Oglesby. The photographs of Tina's mouth, where the defendant had sprayed her with carpet cleaner.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And, uh, Mr. Schmidt, I'd like to ask you about that safe. That safe is obviously, it's been stalled, built into the wall, and it is usually covered at probably all times, correct? Yes. And is there anyone else that would be able to touch that safe, that safe handle or anything about that safe? Maybe the partition or the board that was covering.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Does anyone else ever operate with that safe or go into it? I would be the only one. You'd be the only one. So grandkids aren't apt. I'm sure they've seen it, but grandkids aren't apt. regularly touch and pull the board all the time, that giant, right? No.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You stated earlier, you testified that your wife related to you something about locking you safe permanently and that the police are on their way now because they have a notification of that safe if it's the wrong combination, correct? Correct. Would you repeat that?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You stated earlier in your testimony that your wife related to you that she told the suspect or suspects that they had locked the safe because it was wired to the police station forever. She told me she told the suspect that the safe was wired to the police department. Yes. And then they proceeded to stare. That's what she said, yes.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You've already not objected to the introduction of those exhibits here for purposes of trial, and you can observe what's on the screen with Mr. Jones and the witness as they testify. And if you need those exhibits, they will be available for you during cross-examination to use yourself. The lesson from the objection is overruled.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And I'm sure you've had other conversations in the time after the alleged offense. On top of the initial conversation with her at that time, she did not say anything further as to any other events that happened upon going upstairs. Objection, Your Honor. The witness has already testified that she told him they went upstairs and bent her over her chair and raped her again.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's what the witness testified to. So now the defendant here is trying to confuse the witness by misinterpreting his previous testimony. I'll sustain the objection if you could rephrase or re-ask the question. Perfectly honest. Mr. Young, I thought you were asking this witness about any other conversation he had had with the victim about her description of what happened.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So if you could pinpoint the witness with your question as to the answer you're looking for, then hopefully you'll get the answer you're looking for. And she's, excuse me, I'll skip past that question and continue on. She stated that they proceeded upstairs, right? Yes. And the mail fits her open. The chair, she raped my wife. She told me she was raped.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Smith, earlier you stated that she related to you that she put that over the chair. I don't remember saying that. Your wife, I'd like to ask you about her being, about her personal mentality. You were on Zoom. You were around her daily. If I make the snub sheet, the CL...
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
was a sharp person, meaning not only smart, but intelligent, crafty, ingenious, of a stable mind, consistent in her manner of everyday life. Would you agree that my assumption is accurate? Jackson wrote it relevant and sustained as being irrelevant as well as a compound question. Your wife did not suffer from any dementia at all, Blackie. No. So she would have remembered things pretty well.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Objection. I would call for speculation on the part of Miss Whitman. I don't know if he can answer the best of his knowledge. Would you repeat that? So her memory was actually pretty good, right? It was pretty good. Yeah. Maybe. Objection. Again, we're talking about what was eight years ago. Sustaining the objection.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Smith, I'd like to ask you a question or two about your Toyota Avalon, the white one with the license plate of ABS, I believe 1706. Could you tell me what year that was? It's the best year of remembrance. Roundabout. I believe it was a 2018. And that automobile did not have self-propelled autopilot driving installed in its model, did it? No. Meaning it did not drive itself, obviously.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The photographs of Tina's vagina, where the defendant had shoved his penis inside of her. The photographs of Tina's body, where she is showing that she had been left bruised and beaten. Tina won't be able to come here and tell you about the pain. She won't be able to tell you about the humiliation she suffered. But he will get to answer Ada Kagumba, Tina's doctor.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Thank you. Is it true that your wife stated that the female in this criminal equation was the worst of the two? Yes. Mr. Smith, I'd like to ask your opinion. Based on your knowledge and testimony, based on life, based on what your wife has related to you or had related to you, First, I apologize, I'll backtrack.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And page exhibit 25, bruising on both the the upper backside of Christina Lohman's thighs on both the right and left side, I'm afraid to say. Correct. And is the bruising contained on the interior of both the right and left thigh?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Your wife stated the female was verbally violent and threatened her many times, correct? She said the, yes, she did. And that was all other than rummaging through your house, ransacking you, and stealing everything, correct? Yes, she said the female did, yes. And I'll reiterate for you, I'm going to stay on. Do I have to stay in the middle of the river downstairs to meet her? That's right.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Correct. Yes. Back to my original question. Based on life and being a human being and the relevance of what your wife relayed to you, in your eyes, what do you see of worse? The male or the female? I'm checking your honor. Relevant speculation. Improper opinion. You are aware that the female was simply supposed to be only verbally wound, Rick? The female threatened her with a knife.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Verbal threats. Verbal threats, yes. Thank you. Did your wife ever state anything about the female touching her? I don't remember for sure what she all said. Generally... I'm the owner. Yes. No, we used, we each used our own vehicles. or the two different vehicles that were owned by the company. Is it possible that at times C.L. would not even go to work? Objection, Your Honor. Relevance?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
On sustained. I recently stated C.L. left before you that day. I don't know if it reminds you that before you went to farming home. Objection, Your Honor. He never said that C.L. was at work with him that day. I would sustain. I don't recall that being testified to. Mr. Smith, did your wife Drink alcohol. Objection, Your Honor. Relevance? I'll sustain.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I don't find the relevance in the question, Your Honor. Mr. Schmidt, did your wife have any markings on her body that you could observe upon entering the home that were not mostly there? Are you aware of that? I don't remember if she had any other markings on her or not. You gave us our 36 years, obviously, though. Did she have any temporary confidence in her body?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
In other words, it's on the insides of both of them.
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Such as maybe skin depredation or birthmarks? No. None? None? Any lower body? Objection, Your Honor. All the rules. Let me ask you a question. I'll restate that. Can you hold the question? I'm sorry. The question was, did she have any birthmarks or pigmentation on her lower body?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's correct.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And she'll tell you about the injuries she observed on Tina the week after the defendant had arrested her. Tina won't be able to come here. She won't be able to look the defendant in the eye and say, you did this to me. But on that cold, dark day, November 9th, one of the reasons Tina was so terrified is she had no idea who the person was that attacked her. She didn't know his name.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Let's let the witness answer the question before we move on, Mr. Young. No. Is Omega and Mrs. Smith on us?
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Here on equals 26, it's going to be a blank screen off the screen again.
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Is there any recent medical attention outside of 11-9 or 21-9? There are no hospital visits. I mean, she went to the doctor. I'm not sure. Yes, she went to the doctor. Who's Schmidt? I don't want to go too much further. I don't know. I feel like I've already violated enough of this question. I hate to have you here as it is. Your Honor, if we could just get to a question, please.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It's a photograph of the Christian alumnus showing abrasions and bruising and discoloration.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Young, if you would ask your next question of this witness, then we'll be here even less. Knowing your wife for 36 years, being your wife for two years, do you see any reason that she would laugh and giggle about things such as this? Objection, Your Honor. There's no evidence of that, and it would be speculation on the part of this witness. Sustained.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Smiley, I guess, about the cell phone service. I'm on the bus. Objection, Your Honor. Relevance? Maybe we'll get to something relevant. Go ahead.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Go ahead.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes, I overrode the objection. That means you can ask the question. How is the cell phone service up there on the blocks for your house located? Objection. Again, a little bit of an objection. Maybe we'll get to something relevant, but go ahead with the line of questioning, Mr. Young. I'll proceed on your own.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Again, based on the sensitive nature of that, we'd ask the bailiff to approach and show that to the jurors. All right. We'll proceed in the fashion as suggested. And so goes the element of the fact. Welcome to People's Exhibit 19.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Based on your remembrance, do you remember your wife being appointed to go to the hospital while you were there? Yes, they told her she had to go to the hospital. And who might that be that told her they had to go to the hospital? I don't remember. It would have been law enforcement, correct? Law enforcement yourself would be the only ones there, true? Her daughters were there also.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So it could have been law enforcement and daughters. And the daughter. And whether to see your answer or not, I'd like to answer the only question that has been asked. Do you remember approximately how many daughters did arrive to the scene? No, I don't. And do you know how they got information? I called the younger daughter, Ilsa.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Svidal, you said you went to the hospital by yourself in your own vehicle. Do you remember when you took your wife to the hospital? She went with her daughter. And that would have been Ilsa's or Heidi's? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And that was on your Reverend Nunn that same night? Yes. Before you came to the hospital, could you shed a bit of light on what your wife did before leaving?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
What precautions did she do? Maybe she dressed? How long it was, to the best of your knowledge. Yeah, she put some clothes on. She didn't shower? No. She, uh, I would say she held tops on and she didn't change clothing? I don't know. Michigan, are you, uh, in regards to the sexual assault, are you aware of whether there were any objections to the condom or anything? Did she explain it to you? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
She didn't know where he went, but she did know. She knew he had a red beard, and she knew he had her purse, her jewelry. The day after, November 9, 2021, on November 10, 2021, the day after she had been brutally and violently robbed and sexually assaulted, the U.S. Marshals found the defendant in Springfield, Missouri.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And last question, she walked down the road.
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She walked down the road. Yeah. She walked down the road.
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When you were speaking with Christine Lomath and talking with her, did you notice anything about her mouth, specifically if there was blood in her mouth?
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There was.
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And did you take photographs of the interior of her mouth as well? I did. When you looked in her mouth, did you discover that there were significant injuries to the inside?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
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In your training as a nurse and the years that you've been a nurse, have you seen chemical burns before? I have. The burns in Ms. Lohman's mouth, did it appear to be chemical burns to you? It did. People's Exhibit 27, it's just a photograph of the insides of Christina Lohman's mouth on November 9th, 2021, when you performed a sexual assault examination.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When they found the defendant in Springfield, I'm sorry, Springfield, Illinois. When they found the defendant in Springfield, the defendant had Tina's purse over his shoulder. Inside that purse were Tina's jewelry, Tina's voter ID card. On the defendant's wrist was Tina's watch. And inside the defendant's pocket was Tina's rosary.
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It is. The black and red areas, is that blood?
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Yes.
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Again, People's 28, is that a different view of Christina Lowman's, the interior of her mouth?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
On the defendant's feet were a pair of shoes that exactly matched the shoe print left at the scene at Tina's house. And just down the street from where the defendant was found was Tina's car covered in the defendant's fingerprints. And despite efforts to destroy any DNA by spraying carpet cleaner on Tina, there was male DNA found by the Illinois State Police.
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It is.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Again, we're able to better visualize the clotting on her mouth and then the fresh blood at the back of her throat. Is that correct?
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That's correct.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Again, the interior of Christina Lowman's mouth on November 9th, 2021, showing blood.
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The clotting and the abrasions and the turns on the inside of her mouth. Is that right?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Male DNA was found on the Depends, the adult diaper that Tina had been wearing that night of November 9, 2021. DNA that was on Tina's Depends was determined to be 310 times more likely to be the defendant's DNA. The can of carpet cleaner that the defendant had used to spray Tina's mouth and body that was found at the house, that was tested for fingerprints.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That is correct. Here, do we see the roof of her mouth, Christina Lemons? No.
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That's correct.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The following is the trial of Bradley Yon, who decided to represent himself and in doing so, made a mockery of the court system. Jan was charged with two counts of home invasion, aggravated kidnapping, aggravated vehicle hijacking, aggravated criminal sexual assault, and residential burglary. A month after the attack, Christine lost her life.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And again, the black clotting and the fresh abrasion.
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That's correct.
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And the fresh. Ms. Oglesby, did you also examine Christina Lemons' vagina?
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I did.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And in examining her vagina, did you know there's injuries to her vagina? I did. In fact, was there a three linear tears approximately one centimeter long?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And the defendant's fingerprint was found on that can of carpet cleaner. What the defendant did was on November 9, 2021 was horrific. It was violent. It was a nightmare. It was a lone woman. No 77-year-old grandmother should ever have to experience what the defendant did to Tina Lohman on November 9, 2021. It was sick. It was perverted. What he did to Tina Lohman was, it's called home invasion.
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Is that correct? Yeah, that sounds correct.
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And also a one by one or one centimeter by one centimeter abrasion and a three centimeter by two centimeter abrasion. Bleeding.
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That's correct.
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Did you also attempt to perform a cervix exam on this woman?
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I did.
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Were you able to complete that?
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I was not.
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Is that because it was too painful for her?
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That is correct.
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When you were able to perform what you were able to perform on that cervix exam, did you notice stringy clots in the vaginal wall?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It's called aggravated kidnapping. Aggravated vehicular hijacking. It's called residential. And it's called aggravated criminal. And at the end of this case, called to hold the defendant for what he did to Tina Lohman on November 9th, 2021. Thank you, Your Honor.
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I did.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Can you tell me what that means, stringy clots in the vaginal?
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When I was able to open up the speculum as much as I could, there was clotted blood from some sort of injury to the vagina. Yeah.
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And Peoples 31 and 32, those are photographs of the examination of Christina Lemon's vagina during the sexual assault examination. Yes. And those show the abrasions and the tears that you three are seeing. Correct. Based on the nature of 31 and 32, we're not going to publish them on the Screaming Dice, but we will publish the jury and publish them in that manner.
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Mr. Yon, care to make any opening statements? Yes, sir. Uh, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what you just heard were theatrics. Theatrics. Something one puts forth in order to obtain and persuade you to obtain a conviction in a trial. I will concede that some things Ms. Keck here stated do in fact ring true. However, they're not as she stated them.
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Welcome to Crimatorium. I'm your host, Madeline. Christine Lohmann-Schmidt was a 77-year-old wife, mother, grandmother, and great-grandmother. She was poised and strong, loved Christmas, wine, and Star Trek, but most of all, she loved her family. Christine traveled the world, studied at the Sarbonne in Paris, and went to the London School of Economics.
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Thank you. Mr. Jones, when you're ready with your questions. Thank you, Your Honor. Can you tell me your name, please?
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If the exhibits 31 and 32 will be published to the jury as suggested. Ms.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There are many discrepancies in this case that have yet to be finalized. Ladies and gentlemen, the jury today, this is going to be very hard for all of us. We have people here in the stands. It's going to be extremely hard for them. It's going to be extremely hard for you. It's extremely hard for myself. I'm the one here on these claims. However, these claims are not quite true.
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Oblesby, when you accepted that examination from Christy Allen, was she wearing an adult gift that time? She was. When you, did you move that thing?
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I did.
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And did you place it into evidence?
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I did.
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When you observed that defense, did you notice any blood on that as well?
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And I will show you that today. I apologize for having you awesome people here today. Yes, it's a duty of citizenship to have to serve on a jury every so often. Not many smiles today. However, I did see some yesterday. I appreciate them smiles. That has brought a light to my soul as I've been stuck here in this county jail, tormented for the last 19 months. I ask that you forgive my appearance.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes, there was a lot of blood on the defense.
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You're familiar with the term sexual assault, yeah?
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Correct.
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Did you perform a sexual assault in this case?
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I did.
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We're going to hand you what's been marked as people's exhibit number one.
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Do you recognize that? I do. And is that the sexual assault kit that you collected on November 9th, 2021 from Christina? It is. Count it again. Number one, be admitted again. Any objection? No, Your Honor. As long as we can introduce 0506, the defense copy, which is also a secondary patient consent form. It's also the top of that box, which is attached to that. It's a completely different one.
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Jacqueline Oglesby.
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This is not normally me. I normally have hair. I did not expect you to feel sorry for me by any means. I also understand you'd much rather be enjoying your summer at home rather than being in this courtroom. However, the powers that compel have brought you here today. I once heard that trials are based on persuasion. Who has the best persuasion in their words?
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Can you get your little duck closer to that?
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Sirs, I'm going to object at this point. The court asked us if there was an objection to the introduction, not for commentary about other pieces of evidence.
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And so, Mr. Young, there's no objection to the admission of people's exhibit number one. You will have a chance to cross-examine and attempt to introduce the exhibits you believe are relevant. And so we'll take that up when it's your turn. Mr. Jones. Thank you, Your Honor.
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Who can be persuaded by the persuadee? Words like persuasion, I believe they're negative myself. They're kind of like manipulation. Very negative. It's, it's,
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Jacqueline Oglesby?
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There we go. All right. Everybody here, okay. Ms. Oglesby, can you tell me what you do?
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negative in my insight to persuade somebody especially when you want to persuade somebody as to the charges here today and not have the proof needed to to present those theatrics and not have the proof needed to present those theatrics to persuade one's life away As Ms. Keck stated, if they were to truly happen, they're sick, they're demented, they're horrendous, horrid.
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I think I just want to make sure that adults, the pants, that just something where she was wearing that when she came into the emergency room when you were first there. Correct. Thank you. That's all the questions I have. All right. Any cross-examination, Mr. Young? Yes, Your Honor. Yes, most definitely. I'll just be cutting for company. In reference to, I'll start out with a sex assault kid.
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In reference to the sex assault kid, you do a number of procedures in that sex assault kid, right? That's correct. There's a number of options or steps you should take in order to fulfill a complete sex assault, true?
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Persuasion, I see that in the same sense as to persuade something that is not true is also sick. These are demented crimes. Ladies and gents, I'm more in agreeance with the word logical. To be logical seems to be more so valuable than to persuade some. Also, the meaning of logical, to expect because of what has gone before, what has happened in prior arrangements, prior times.
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I do it based on the patient's needs and wants.
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In this case, you did several different pages. Questionnaires, notations, bruises, among the statements, apps described by patient historian, methods used by assailants or assailants, post-assault hygiene activity, patient medical history for forensic lab among general exam.
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Based on or using logic, the definition of logic, correct reasoning, or the science of what is expected by the working of cause and effect. The working of cause and effect. Today and throughout this trial, you'll see that the cause does not hold the effect it should. The alleged cause does not hold the effect it should. I'm sure a lot of you are logical human beings.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Throughout the trial, Christine is referred to as Christina, Tina, and CL. The first two recordings have been heavily edited due to how noisy the courtroom was, so the voices sound slightly distorted. In the next episodes, the sound improves greatly. The pain, indignity, and fear Christine faced is nothing short of shocking. Listener discretion is advised. Look for parts three and four tomorrow.
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I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.
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When you do a sexual assault kit, which I believe is called an ISPE or ISPSEC, a sex assault evidence collection kit, there are several steps to that kit, right? Correct. And one of them would be a general exam. Correct. And you would examine the... Declarence body, per se, you would overlook them if they happen again. Correct. And you notate them injuries, obviously, right? Correct.
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because all the sheriff's department calls it tape doesn't bother me they you always figure they know everything anyway yeah how are you doing i'm doing pretty good ted how are you doing well i'm hanging in there i uh i just got the bug last week and uh wanted just wanted to chat with you briefly because we have been away for a long time yeah right and uh right how are things going for you over there uh well quite well quite frankly uh i was just talking to someone the other day and
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I began thinking about that way back in Utah. I had a year to study criminal law in action. And I'm a very biased person. I have a lot of strong opinions about how things should be done. And when I came here, I think that my opinions were established to the point where the method that my tyrannies wished to impose here and my own did not agree. And we couldn't coexist.
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And theirs were right for them, and mine are going to be right for me. I have the greatest amount of confidence, at least in the preparation stage, that my ideas will work. And believe me, I'm not standing here alone. I'm just called a habit as an attorney friend of mine today. Every day I get input. Every day I ask questions. But the reason I went on my own is because I just felt it was time.
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I felt it was right. I wanted to get involved. I wanted to become a part of my defense because I am such a part of it. I mean, obviously, I'm going to bear the consequences, so why not bear the responsibility of seeking my own acquittal and sustaining my own innocence?
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Ted, when you left Salt Lake, when you were extradited, you issued a statement saying you feel that everything will turn out all right, that you are innocent. Do you still feel that?
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That, yeah, more than ever. Of course, you can't help... but become an advocate for yourself when you're so involved in the case. And being a good defense attorney, and again, I'm not pretending I'm an attorney, but putting yourself in a position of being your own counsel, it's that positive psychology. You're going to do it. You're going to do it because you're right.
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You're going to do it because the person you're representing is innocent. It just happens to be, in this case, I've got a lot at stake, and the person I'm representing is myself, and I'm working all the harder. Yeah, I feel good about it, and yes, I feel that I'm right, and yes, I feel I'm going to make it. No doubt in my mind.
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There's always one thing that amazed me, as you know. I covered your trial, and I was there every day. When the judge found you guilty of second-degree kidnapping, you never showed any emotion. Yeah. For somebody who believes he is so innocent, why was there no emotion?
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My attorney, John O'Connell, in Salt Lake, and I've always mused over just how I should behave. What's the right way for Ted Bundy to behave and make sure that people get the right impression? And I just behaved the way I felt was right. Okay, let me take the day of March 1st, 1976, the day that the judge rendered his verdict in my case first. I didn't show any emotion because...
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They've added a couple of additional Utah transactions, alleged transactions, in their attempt to gain a conviction in the Colorado case. I don't know. I've been so overwhelmed by work recently that, you know, there's just a lot to do. But, you know, way back when, when I was This was back in April when I decided to represent myself in this case.
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You know, what am I supposed to do? Am I going to jump up on the table? Am I going to scream? That's what I felt like doing. I heard my mother crying. It's an emotional time. I don't even like to think of that day.
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But I wasn't going to give these people who went out and built a case around a non-existent eyewitness, an eyewitness identification that was built by the police, I wasn't going to give them the satisfaction of seeing me break down. And sure I may, and I'm showing emotion right now because inside I may. But I've kept it together because there's no point in destroying myself.
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I have got to keep myself together. I have got to stay calm. I've got to keep my presence of mind because as long as I do that, I'm going to beat these people. And that's the way I feel. I showed no emotion. I felt emotion. Believe me. Now... When Carol DeRosh, the kidnapping victim from Utah, came to testify in this preliminary hearing here, I was beside myself with rage.
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She is turning into a professional witness as far as I'm concerned. She is a prosecution witness. And when I heard her go through that routine that I had heard three times before, I had restrained myself every time. I couldn't do it this time. And I told my attorney, I said, I'm going to get
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inches long now and i felt it he pulled me down he says listen he says you can't do that that's okay but i had to do it for once for once they had to do it and do you know something people say ted bundy didn't show any emotion there must be something in there i showed emotion you know what people said see you really can't get violent and angry uh there's no white right way for me to act i act and i don't care what people think about how i act i act
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according to the way I think is right and best for me at the time. I'm not going to try to please people or impress people, because quite frankly, the amount of bias and prejudice that surrounds me as a media image, I can't begin to tear down. Not with this interview or a hundred interviews.
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Ted, do you believe, I'm a person from the media, other people here, do you believe that we created you, that it's our fault that we created this image of The mass murder, is that what you're saying to us?
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Well, I think in the course of doing the job you did, not in a malign way, not in a personal vendetta against me, but in the course of publishing the material and broadcasting the material coming out of the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office or the Salt Lake County Prosecutor's Office, you began... to plant the seed in people's minds.
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Now, that may be your constitutional right and duty, as well as your livelihood. But I think in the process, you did create a media image of me that's far beyond the reality of me.
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That's what he called it. I suggested it John, we ought to get Mattel to make little dogs that walk and say, I'm the Bundy monster.
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Ted, let me ask you this. You totally believe you're innocent. Mm-hmm. I'm not questioning that. My question to you is, how did it come to be that Ted Bundy could be involved in some of these things and has now been charged, convicted once, is now facing first-degree murder charges? Mm-hmm. And as you know, he was being suspected in other murders. How did Ted Bundy come out?
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That's a very long story, and I really can't... If I knew the answers to that question, I wouldn't be sitting here right now. I'd be back in Salt Lake with a new trial. And one day I'll have those answers, and one day I'll have a new trial. But I don't know why. I can't begin to understand why. I know that there's a lot of... Police ego on the line.
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I know that a lot of men in the detective's division, Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office jobs are on the line. I know that a long time ago it ceased to be an issue as to whether or not I was innocent or guilty. The issue is now is can we pin it on him? Can we follow through and maintain our reputation as law enforcement officers?
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I could just... I was just thinking to myself, I could hear Al big. Yeah, yeah, I knew we tried to do something like that. Yeah, I knew you would. Well, I remember one time you come in. I can't remember whether it was something I read in your report. I think it may have been something I read in one of your reports, quite frankly. That I can't... Delegate responsibility or something to that effect.
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And I'll tell you, as long as they attempt to keep their heads in the sand about me, there's going to be people turning up in canyons, and there's going to be people being shot in Salt Lake City because the police there aren't willing to accept what I think they know, and they know that I didn't do these things. Okay.
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Okay. Then how do you exist every day? How do you keep your sound? Well, um... How are you keeping your sound? You're a young man. You're intelligent, obviously. Obviously. How do you stay in that little cell and stay sane?
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They gave me a year's training course in that. From March 1st of 76 until I was expedited to Colorado, I was locked up. I had a lot of time to work on being locked up. It wasn't easy at first, but now it's easy. I mean, they made me hard inside, and I can spend time in there. I don't like it. I'll never like it, and I'll never accept it.
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But I can deal with it because I know how to, let's say... Have you trained your mind? Train the mind. Is that the word I was going to use? It's not exactly training your mind. It's just creating your own environment in here. And not looking at the ceiling, not looking at the wall, and not thinking about the outside, and not anguishing over the fact that you've lost your freedom.
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But simply in here, simply knowing that some freedom... I mean, I live 24 hours a day in that thing, except when I go to the library. What did you say?
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Exercise? I walk about two miles a day. inside 880 laps. I haven't been following your case that closely, but you'll have to agree you're the target of a great deal of mystery, and you said earlier macabre interest. Why?
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You'll have to admit there's a hell of a lot of circumstantial evidence, at least circumstantial, it seems to somebody who has read
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No, I won't admit that. No, it's not circumstantial as far as I'm concerned. I don't really know exactly what you're referring to, and I don't really want to discuss it. But I don't care what anybody says or the suspicions anyone harbors on the basis of that misinformation. And indeed, that's what I call it, circumstantial information perhaps, but misinformation as far as I'm concerned.
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A lot of people trying to pin a lot of stuff on somebody because, you know, it's convenient. But... You think you've been set up? Well, I don't think there's any broad scheme, but I think one begins to... I would have to infer that based on some of the police activity. I think following November of 75, you'd have to say that there was a general...
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design amongst police officers in several jurisdictions to do whatever they could. And I think a statement recently made by a sheriff in Utah County, I believe, he said that he walked out in some of those meetings because it was just clear that they had one thing on their mind and they were going to do anything to prove it. And I think this trial will show exactly what they've done.
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I don't know. I don't think it's exactly where you put it, but... Yeah, I can't remember anything. But something more or less that I like to, you know, do things myself and have a hard time entrusting things to others. I can't remember how you say it. Yeah, it's an achievement. I'm not sure.
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I'm not going to sit here and say people have perjured themselves, but I think that will come out. Are you angry? Sure, I get angry. I get very, very angry and indignant.
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I don't like being locked up for something I didn't do, and I don't like my liberty taken away, and I don't like being treated like an animal, and I don't like people walking around and ogling me like I'm some sort of weirdo, because I'm not. I'm perfectly happy with the person I am, and I've always been happy.
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I mean, yeah, I don't pay my telephone bills on time, and I don't write my mother as many letters as I should. There are all kinds of things I can improve about myself, but a weirdo knows I feel good about myself. I'm happy with myself. You don't change. You stay Ted Bundy 24 hours a day. Well, gee, that name sounds funny. You know, I hear Ted Bundy in so many different contexts. I stay me.
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Okay, I've matured in the past year. Believe me, I've grown in the past year, and I've learned a lot of things about myself in the past year. Being in prison, going through a kind of hell, matures a person, and I think it's done good things for me. My only misgiving is that I might never be in a position to apply it, you know, on the streets where I'd like to apply it.
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do you ever think when you're in that cell about the possibility that you could one day face a firing squad they don't have firing squads in colorado and i don't think that in any event that i ever think i don't think about it honest to god now and i've been asked that question before and i'm going to give you pat answer if you don't mind when you did you fly over here from Yes.
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Did it worry you all the way over that you might be killed in a plane crash? No. Are you thinking about it now, going back? Same here. I think I stand about as much chance of dying in front of a firing squad or in a gas chamber as you do being killed in a plane flight home. Let's hope you don't. So you don't lie awake at night thinking about it? Not a moment. Honest to God, not a moment.
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Anyway, I was just wondering, I know you're really at arm's length on this thing, and, you know, we haven't really... know taught personally obviously since the latter part of january yeah right impressions about all that you've been hearing about the me and and okay how do you mean well like the escape and everything I wonder what your impression of that was.
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Because it's not going to happen. Are you going to be a free man? Do you think that about being a free man? Sure. Yeah.
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And you think when I say there is circumstantial evidence that I'm in left field, there isn't circumstantial evidence?
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I know there isn't. You're dealing on the outside, I'm on the inside. I mean, you have access to information, but I'm on the inside. I know what's there and I know what isn't there. I've seen the files and I've heard the reports. And Lord knows I'm the first and foremost person who has the personal intimate knowledge that it couldn't be me, that it's not me, that I'm innocent.
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Dealing from that on out, I know exactly what's what. And when you tell me the circumstantial evidence, I'm not going to argue with you, Lucky. It's just, let's just wait and let's just let it come out in court. Let's let it be examined in open court. And I'll lay my money on me. That's the way I feel. Do you think about getting out of here? Well, legally, sure.
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With the rumors that have gone on about you, and you're more aware of them than I am, how have you been treated in prison by other inmates?
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Well, I think you may... Has it made your life more difficult or more dangerous being in prison? I think you may be more aware of the rumors than I am. For this reason, I have heard a lot of talk, and there might be an inmate ex who says, you know, Bundy's this and that kind of person.
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But you know, when I'm confronted person to person by these people, or by people in general, I have never, I have never been accused, I have never been assaulted, I have never been verbally abused. And the reason is because I hold my head high, I believe in myself, and I treat every man with the respect that he deserves. And that's the way you get along in prison.
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One of the many ways you get along in the joint is that you treat a man with respect, that you don't try to hustle somebody, that you come across straight to him. One of the first things you learn is that if you're a straight con and you keep your mouth shut and you keep tight with good people, you're going to stay out of trouble. And it doesn't make any difference what you've done.
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What happens if you're in prison five years and nothing like what has happened in the past happens again?
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I mean, any of the things that you have been accused of by innuendo, by rumor, by the police departments or whatever, what if there are no killings or no kidnappings? It's already happened, hasn't it?
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I've heard some reports. I remember the incidents between 5 and 8, which are similar to the ones which the police have had the nerve to try to associate with me. It's going to continue to happen in Salt Lake and Utah until those police start to wise up and stop counting their chickens before they hatch.
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I think it's a terribly dangerous mentality to try to pin something on somebody who they believe there's a possibility couldn't have done it. And as long as they believe that, they're not going to find the right man. And the man who kidnapped Carol Durant is going to continue to be free.
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And not only her, but every other young woman in the Salt Lake Valley is going to be threatened by that person or persons. And it's happening today and it's going to happen in the future. What do you think about, in your mind, what do you conjure up about the man that they're after or the real man who did these things? Man or man, persons, persons, I don't know.
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I really have, I can't even begin to understand the mentality. I don't understand the motivation. Okay. Do you ever feel like you'd like to escape? Let me preface any answer to that remark by giving my feeling about jails. Somebody asked me, that question's been asked me before, I mean, would you want to escape? Have you ever planned to escape?
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And if my attorney was here, he'd say, I object, Your Honor. Mr. Bundy is being asked a question, an attempt is being made to ask Mr. Bundy to incriminate himself. But let me try to get my way out of that one. The Utah State Prison, as you know, is surrounded by several barbed wire fences and has many, many guards and towers. And they've got dogs that run around there.
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And they've got bars in the cells. And they've got count procedures. And what do you think that's all for? That's to keep the men in there. Now, does anyone think that if they took those fences down, and took those dogs away and those guns away, all those guys would stay? Sure they'd go.
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The very reason for prison, the very assumption of all those bars and all that barbed wire is that if it's not there, those guys are going to leave. And I swear to God, every man in that prison at one time or another thinks about going, wishes he wasn't there, and wishes he could fly over those fences. I've dreamed about flying over those fences.
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Just, again, just from a part of you who knows me but who didn't have an opportunity to speak to me either just before or after that happened.
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I've dreamed about climbing over those fences and tunneling under those fences. With every other man in there, I've dreamed about being free. Because I don't like my liberty being taken away and no man does. Some men in the Utah State Prison become institutionalized because they've been so brutalized over the years they don't want to think about the outside.
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But most every man when he first goes in there dreams and thinks and conjures up all kinds of ideas of freedom. But the real difference, the real measure of a man in prison as far as escape goes is the difference between hitting that fence and not hitting that fence. between getting shot at and not getting shot at, and having the guts to do it and not having the guts to do it.
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You might be able to open those gates at the Utah State Prison, and 80% of the guys wouldn't leave. They'd be afraid to get back out into society. They'd be afraid of being shot or getting another beef put on them. But some would. All I'm saying is, I'm no fool. I don't like being locked up, and I don't think any man does.
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You talk about getting out. Do you ever worry about what some of the parents of some of these women who think you are guilty, that they might come after you?
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Yeah, right. Yeah, this is something that'd be fun to sit down and chat with you about an hour. Yeah. And, uh... Uh... I had mixed impressions. I was wondering if you were really getting uptight and the pressure looked like it was on, you know? And I was wondering if it was, uh... getting looked like in your mind that you were going to be convicted.
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I don't worry about it. There are crazy people anywhere. I've been told that the parents of these that these girls are fairly decent people. I don't know. And I really feel for them because apparently they've suffered an incredible tragedy in their lives. The loss of a loved one is probably the most extreme kind of loss you can suffer in this life.
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And I feel as much for them as anybody can, not having gone through that myself. But as far as worrying about that, hey, if someone's crazy enough and nutty enough to do something like that, I can't stop them. There's nothing I can do. You are not guilty. I'm not guilty. Does that include the time I stole a comic book when I was five years old?
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I'm not guilty of the charges which have been filed against me. And the allegations. And the allegations. And the rumors. I don't know all of what she's speaking about, Lucky. It's too broad, and I can't get into it in any detail. But I'm satisfied with my... blanket statement that I'm innocent. No man is truly innocent.
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I mean, we all have transgressed in some way in our lives, and as I say, I've been impolite, and there are things I regret having done in my life, but nothing like the things I think that you're referring to.
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Yeah, I know more about it. My class is graduating in about a month. In law school? I bet you I know more about law than any of them. That pisses me off. Now that does piss me off.
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The trial of a man accused of killing two girls in a sorority house in Tallahassee, Florida, is having a difficult time getting underway. Ike Siemens is covering this case.
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33-year-old Theodore Bundy is charged with beating and strangling two Florida State University sorority sisters and attempting to kill another woman student in January 1978. His trial was transferred to Miami after Judge Edward Cowart found that choosing an impartial jury in Tallahassee would be difficult. Selection of the 12-person jury began yesterday in Miami.
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Unlike most murder trials, this one will feature the defendant helping four public defenders in cross-examining witnesses. Bundy, a former law student at the University of Utah, has already complained to the judge that his jail cell is not adequate for his legal research. The judge ordered the jail to change that.
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Inside the courtroom, the trial will be covered by a still photographer and one television camera. Upstairs, there are some 250 reporters and television technicians from around the country. They will be following the trial and making videotaped recordings of it. The Bundy trial is expected to last more than a month, according to the judge.
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Before the trial begins, Bundy's lawyers will ask the judge to throw out two key pieces of pretrial testimony. One is from a woman student. She says she saw the man who ran from the sorority house on the night of the murder. Another is from a dental expert. He says that the teeth marks found on the buttocks of one of the victims could only have been made by Theodore Bundy.
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So when the opportunity was there and you just took it, believe, you know, I'd like to have been able to sit down with you before and after to see, you know, just to see what was happening. Yeah. What, uh, you know, in your own mind, what was, what was happening? What was the reason for it? You know,
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In Miami, Judge Edward Cowart is expected to rule today on two defense motions in the trial of Theodore Bundy. He's accused of murdering two co-eds at Florida State University. The judge heard testimony on one of those motions yesterday. Here are details from Mark Potter of station WCKT.
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Bundy took the witness stand wearing a sport coat and a Seattle Mariners t-shirt.
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He was questioned by one of his attorneys during a pre-trial hearing outside the presence of the jury. Bundy is acting as part of his own defense team and is trying to prevent evidence seized during a 1975 arrest in Granger, Utah from being used in his murder trial in Miami.
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He claims that a pair of handcuffs and a pantyhose mask were taken from his car by patrolmen who did not tell him he could refuse such a search. He also claimed that a patrolman threatened him.
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And the officer, Hayward, had left his car and approached me. And the first thing he said to me was, why didn't you get out of your car and run? I could have taken your head off.
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Judge Edward Cowart has not yet ruled on Bundy's request to suppress the evidence. He also has not ruled on a defense motion to bar the testimony of Nita Neary, a one-time Florida State University co-ed who was the prosecution's main witness. Neary says she is positive she saw Bundy leaving the Cayamaga sorority house carrying a club the night two co-eds were brutally murdered there.
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Would you please state your full name and address? after you'd been stopped by Trooper Hayward. Approximately what time did you leave? Well, it's either the 15th or the 16th. Is there any question about that? It's not. All right. Long as we're not hung with one on one day and one on another, that's the only thing the court would worry about.
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We're talking about one single incident, either August the 15th or August the 16th. Is that correct, gentlemen? After you had been stopped, did Officer Hayward say anything to you?
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Well, after the stop had occurred, I exited my car, and the officer, Hayward, had left his car and approached me, and the first thing he said to me was, why didn't you get out of your car and run?
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I think he asked me a number of questions which intervened the request for a driver's license, and I think he asked me, after his first comment, what I was doing in his neighborhood, to which I did not initially make a response. And then he asked me for my driver's license, which I got from the inside of my car.
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I'd given it a great deal of thought. I'd been moved from Aspen, been in the Aspen, the Pitkin County Jail, which is in Aspen, from January 31st until April the 11th, which is 73 days. I have all this memorized, you know. And in Aspen, I was an open affair. The jail is very small. It's 24, 5, 6, 7 cells, and...
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After I gave the officer my driver's license, he went back to his vehicle, as I recall, and leaned in and pulled out the microphone that they use for the radios and came back to me and told me to go stand by his car, which was approximately 10 feet in back of my car. He told me to wait there, and there was an officer, another state patrolman, who was already on the scene.
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And he told me to stay with the officer. He told the officer to keep an eye on me.
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Let me back up a little bit. Was Officer Hayward in uniform? Yes, he was. Was he carrying a weapon? Yes, he was. Was the additional officer who had come to the scene, was he in uniform? Yes. Was he carrying a weapon? Yes. How many officers arrived at the scene?
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Well, they arrived and they left. I'd say that at any one time there were, the most that were on the scene at any one time, approximately half a dozen. All in uniform? All except for Detective Ondrak, who arrived later, who was in plain clothes.
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Sergeant Hayward's initial reaction, after he told me to stand by his car, he proceeded to my car and walking, he began to walk around it shining his flashlight through the windows and peering in through the windows. The officer that I was standing with next to the patrol car began asking me questions, asking me what I was doing in the neighborhood, why I was there.
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As I was standing by the car, watching him and listening to the officer next to me ask me questions, I watched him walk around the car and shine his flashlight in the car. He apparently was focusing on something inside the car for some time, which seemed like some time.
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He opened the car door. entered the car, and I couldn't see what he was doing. He came back to me and then repeated his earlier questions about what I was doing in his neighborhood, why I was there, and then, as I recall, he went to make another call on his police radio.
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And the words, whether or not they asked me if they could look at my car is something I don't recall or construed as a request to search my car.
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uh you know and all the doors are open all the time the place has been built in 1887 but it was just you know here is where i could come out we could relate to talk to other prisoners go in their cell you know something like at the state prison not like me in the main line and then they moved me down here this is part of the escape because i was a security risk and they put me in a 6 by 12 by 8 foot high cell and ordered no one to speak to me
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After Sergeant Hayward had searched my car and called in another officer to come in, and after my car had been thoroughly searched by the other officers, Detective Ondrak approached me at that time and informed me that he was going to seize certain items from my car and told me that he was going to attempt to get a warrant or a complaint or something of that type.
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against me for possession of burglary tools. At that point, Sergeant Hayward or another officer, I'm not sure, searched me for the first time, handcuffed me, put me in his vehicle, read me the rights off a little card he carried on his console, and drove me downtown to the Salt Lake County Jail.
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And the experience of coming over here is one of those, you know, those good things, bad things. I wouldn't, you know, if I hadn't come over here, I probably wouldn't be looking at a new trial in the Carol Durange case. Yeah. And a whole bunch of, a whole number of things have opened up.
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I mean, it's not that I was quaking in my shoes. I felt that I couldn't stop them from doing what they were doing, that they were going to go ahead and do it no matter what I did. They were intent. The questions from Sergeant Hayward and the other officers at the scene indicated that They believed that I was involved in some sort of activity, and they were hostile about it.
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The questions seemed hostile to me, indicated to me that they were going to do damn well what they pleased, and I did not... You didn't see any point? There was no point.
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I didn't see how the heck I could stop a half a dozen uniformed armed officers from searching my car.
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I think that about covers it. I have no further questions. Mr. McKay? Thank you, Judge. Just a couple of things. That's not the first thing you told Hayward, though, when he asked you what you were doing in the neighborhood, did you? What? Excuse me? He asked you what you were doing in the neighborhood, and you didn't tell him right off what you were doing in the neighborhood, did you?
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I understand. What was that response? As I recall, the response, I don't know when it occurred... was that I had been in the neighborhood drive-in movie.
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I said my response to him was that I had been in the vicinity at a drive-in movie.
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And you followed that up. Let me see if I understand your testimony correctly. You followed that up with another story, didn't you? Yeah, but restate the question. Well, did you tell Hayward anything else after you told him that you'd been at the drive-in movie? You do recall your testimony during the courtroom proceedings in Utah, do you?
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I'm not sure what you're referring to. I mean, really, it's a broad question. If you try to be more specific, I can help you out. Do you recall your testimony in Utah? I recall testifying in Utah.
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Do you recall the testimony? Judge, does that have to be talked about by either the officers at this hearing or by the testimony of the judge? You don't cross-examination any of the things. We've got a direct pinpointed question of issue of fact. The court has to. And that's, I think, a valid question. Overruled, you may proceed. Do you need me to freshen up your memory a little bit, Mr. Bunyan?
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And quite frankly, that's when I decided to represent myself. At least I got to, you know, get out to go to the library, you know. There's only situations where, you know, concrete, solid steel door with a little window and the food slot. I mean, this was worse than the hole. Honestly, Al, this was worse than the hole. Yeah. In Max, because there you can at least talk to people and see people.
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I think if you could be asking the question again, I'm not sure if you're asking, but I can try. I'm asking you on kind of an initial question, and I don't mean to be confusing. Do you recall your testimony in Utah? If you don't, say so, and I'll try to refresh you.
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Well, if you can give me a specific question, I don't think it would be difficult for me to sit here and quote you verbatim what my testimony was in Utah.
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I understand. I can appreciate that. Let me see if this refreshes your mind. Do you recall testifying in Utah? that on the evening in question you were eating dinner and watching television until 12 midnight or 12.30, which time you decided to visit a friend.
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That upon arriving at that friend's house, you noticed the lights were out, you decided not to waken her up, and you proceeded to drive around for a while. You ended up in the Granger area where you decided to smoke some dope.
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You're on now. Excuse me, but if he's going to ask me a question, I will object to the summarization of the entire line of questioning.
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If I've sufficiently refreshed your memory, say so, and I'll stop. You want to tell us about that testimony? Do you recall that, mister? Do I recall the testimony? You apparently do.
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You just told the court there was lengthy questions and answers about that one. All I'm saying is that I don't recall the testimony specifically, but I can say that in general that I can associate what you're saying with the trial in Utah. Okay.
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Specifically, do you recall telling the court in Utah that you fled from the officer in order to get the smoke out of your car? Isn't it a fact that you've done all of the research on this particular motion?
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Yes, such as it is. Yes, I have. Have you found some cases on the point?
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I've found too many cases. And the point we're talking about is consent to search, isn't it? That's one of the points we're talking about. actual basis would need to be for a consent search to be thrown out?
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Yes, I'm familiar with it. I am now. I wasn't then. That hasn't colored your testimony a bit. I think you'll find, well, no it hasn't, and I think you'll find if
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And it's worse than Max because they never let, they have to exercise except for the six days I was out on an escape since the 11th of April. So this was building up and building up and building up. And over the months, I'd noticed a number of opportunities to just walk right out. Walk right out, but I didn't know quite how to put it all together.
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I feel like I need to call Officer Hayward just briefly, Judge. All right. Officer Hayward. Sergeant, I guess he is now. Your Honor, do you need me to swear this witness? No, sir. Step out of the witness stand, sir, and be seated.
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I approve this one, Sergeant. The oath is still out. All you may proceed, Mr. President.
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Thank you, Judge. Sergeant, are you familiar with the smell, the odor of marijuana? Yes, sir. How long have you had some experience in this odor?
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I had three years just prior to this date of alcohol and drug enforcement, drug drivers in the state of Utah.
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During the time you were in Mr. Bundy's car on this particular evening, at any time, did you smell the odor of marijuana?
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At any point during your search in the car or around the car, trunk, engine, whatever, did you find any substance that resembled marijuana?
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At any time during your chase of Mr. Bunyan, did you see anything thrown out of the car? No, I did not. for this one. This is a... Just asking if that's the full report and if it's accurate or not.
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Sergeant Hayward, I'm showing you a document list marked as defendant's closed exhibit A1 identification. I ask you to identify that, please.
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That appears to be... Appears to be what? The same document I have here, full document.
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The stop that occurred on August the 16th, 1978? Yes. Who had offered this and the evidence?
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We received without objection Do they have any other rebuttal? No, sir. Motion's closed. Gentlemen, I'm going to take argument on both of the motions to suppress. John, I'm not prepared to argue the law beyond generalities.
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I have a great deal of case material. As I say, I have not had access to library to streamline it, as it were. I would be willing to make a general argument, but we reserve the right to submit to the court a memorandum
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All right. I'm going to rule on both of them until in the morning anyway. I want to hear the argument on both of them this afternoon. There's no more hearing testimony. How about Pecano and Zion? Do that during trial if you want to, Judge. I thought we had reserved that for during the trial. This is all the testimony to be taken on a motion.
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Well, we've got some William Rule questions, but they primarily will be not witness testimony, as I understand. You do have some short testimony. Well, let's take these two motions to suppress in that order. Are there arguments on them now? Judge, would we give you a chance to give Mr. Haggard?
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As you say, I was very concerned about what people would think. And I didn't, you know, people would say, weren't you afraid that someone would shoot you or something? No, it was one of the lower fears in my...
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Yes, I think you should, and we're going to proceed now with the argument on the Granger, and Mr. Bundy, you may proceed. Thank you.
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Your Honor, there's a lot of cases in that box, and they all deal with consent search issues.
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Yes, sir. I'm sure that there's probably that many more that you've missed.
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And I've missed quite a few. We're only dealing with a couple jurisdictions. As I said, I'm going to argue the law broadly because I haven't had an opportunity to
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to complete my research on the status of Florida law, although I'm familiar with the parameters of the consent search issue as they exist here in Florida and those as outlined by the United States Supreme Court and other federal courts.
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Well, we've really basically set the stage. I'm sure you've read left to mighty. Yes, sir. Let's proceed with that, and we'll go from there. You're not going to be far wrong from Florida law.
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Well, I think the, before I refer to the Bustamante case, I think it's important that the court be put in a position of determining whether it's Florida law that applies or the law of the search, the state with a search criminal.
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The conflict should be resolved in the manner of adopting the law of the foreign state of Florida to determine whether a consent in the search that we've heard testimony in today was freely, voluntarily, and knowingly given.
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Well, you've got more of a basic threshold. This court would have to take into consideration the rulings of the Spring Court of Utah, Mr. Bundy, as far as the concept is concerned. And the only collateral attack, or something in the nature of the collateral attack, would be a federal argument. As this court conceives the law, I think the state
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higher years yeah but I don't know that day I came there and I thought a great deal about escape and I didn't know if I had the guts to do it quite frankly and the guard went outside for a smoke and there's not a one person in the whole courtroom you think you'll have to you'd have to see the courthouse and the windows are open and the fresh air is blowing through and the sky was blue and
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Constitution, if you're well aware of, concerning full faith and credit and finality of the arguments as it relates to seizure of the goods under the forum of where they're seized. This Court would consider that the only possible collateral approach would be on the basis of some additional federal requirement maybe not brought to the attention of the Utah Court.
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However, so that the record is patently clear, I'm going to proceed with the concept that both arguments, or all three arguments, are in fact open. And I'm not going to close you out on that. Brevity has never been the keynote of this trial and probably never will be. So I'll hear whatever you have to say.
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They're directly involved in the search, which did not come to the attention, or I would tell the court that these issues did not come to the attention of the Florida Supreme Court, or the Utah Supreme Court. However, I understand that the court has read the Supreme Court's Chief Justice Ellett. Chief Justice Ellett did not find that the search ruled on by the trial court was legal.
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The legal finding of Chief Justice Ellett in State v. Bundy was that there was evidence sufficient to justify the judgment of seizure and certain the search and seizure issue involved in the utah case i think what we have here is simply a badly written opinion and one which is self-evident relies on virtually no case law and a very highly complicated appeal and so i will say only
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in determining the legality or illegality of the search that occurred and is the subject of this motion. Let me go to the Bustamante case because it's so often referred to and because it's so important in consent search cases.
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The jury could have recommended either death or life in prison for Theodore Bundy. His mother pleaded to save him.
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My Christian upbringing tells me that to take another's life under any circumstances is wrong. And I don't believe the state of Florida is above the laws of God. Take can be very useful in many ways to many people living. Gone from us would be like taking a part of all of us and throwing it away.
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The jury wasn't persuaded. In less than two hours, the same men and women who had convicted him of killing two sorority sisters had this recommendation while an unemotional Theodore Bundy listened.
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We, a majority of the jury at Miami-Dade County, Florida, this 30th day of July, A.D., 1979, recommend that the court impose the sentence of death as authorized by the Florida Statute 775.082, subsection 1, so say the majority, Rudolph E. Tremel Foreman.
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And I said, I'm ready to go. And I walked out the window and jumped out. And I started chugging. And I had no plan. I had nobody helping me. I had no money. I had no nothing. Just ran right up into the mountains. But anyway, you know, when I was captured, recaptured, they brought me back in.
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A judge in Miami today followed the jury's recommendation and sentenced Theodore Bundy to die in the electric chair for the murder of two coeds. Bundy is the 136th person under death sentence in Florida. Ed Rabel reports.
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Before pronouncing the sentence, Judge Edward Cowart let Bundy make a statement.
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I'm not asking for mercy, for I find it somewhat absurd to ask for mercy for something I did not do.
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So I will be tortured for and will suffer for and receive the pain for that act. But I will not share the burden for the guilt.
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In imposing sentence, Judge Cowart cited the savagery of the crimes and what he called the indifference of the defendant.
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This court independent of, but in agreement with, the advisory sentence rendered by the jury that has hereby imposed the death penalty upon the defendant, Theodore Robert Bundy.
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Then, in an unexpected move, perhaps an afterthought, Cowart stunned the courtroom with some parting words for Bundy. Take care of yourself, young man. Thank you.
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I say that to you sincerely. Take care of yourself. It's a tragedy for this court to see such a total waste, I think, of humanity that I've experienced in this court. You're a bright young man. You made a good lawyer. I'd but you went another way, partner.
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Bundy says he'll appeal. Meanwhile, he has been ordered to the state prison to await setting of the date of his execution in the electric chair. Ed Braybill, CBS News, Miami.
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I spoke very freely about my adventures during those six days because it was something I really couldn't deny. But So one of the investigators, Bill Wargase, came into the room after I'd been there for some time and said, well, would you like to talk about the Campbell case? Would you like to tell me all about it now, Ted? You know, more or less, would you want to confess and all this stuff?
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Because, I mean, I could see the twinkle in his eyes that, you know, he thought that I panicked and now the jig was up and I was ready to bust open. And I told him, I said, Mike, listen, I jumped out of the window because I want to be free.
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And I suppose that, you know, if I have to spend several years behind bars, I might as well spend a little here, a little there.
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uh you know two years ago i could have walked out of a courthouse and uh you know no one would charge me with any crime no one would even have noticed i you know as far as i was concerned i was just what belonged to me and it wasn't a fear of conviction it wasn't you know because i believe then that i believe more firmly now and i will be acquitted and and not only that but i'll get a new trial and derange the iran the irony of it all al is probably the only
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offense that they that they will ever get a solid conviction on me will be the escape yeah right but uh you know i told him honest honest to god i i just got sick and tired of being locked up and i thought you know because way back then i knew that i had this new evidence on durant although i hadn't given anybody yet wondering what to do with it and i knew that the case for me here was good that the case they had was weak but i kept saying to myself
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Ted, in the event that you're acquitted here in Colorado, and you go back to Utah, and let's say you get a new trial in Durant, which I estimate would take three years, because even if we win at the trial court level with a new trial, the state will appeal, and if the Supreme Court overturns, we'll have to go to the federal court, and the federal courts take years and years.
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And even if I get a new trial in Durant, three years from... There was a chance I could be convicted just basically on the publicity of the whole thing. I mean, I'm pretty notorious. And if I was acquitted three, four years from now in Durant's case, what would I have left? It may be unrealistically, but I asked myself, could you go to law school? Could you live?
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Would your friends be able to look you in the eye? Could you be Ted Bundy again? I figured, you know, whether you're free tomorrow or whether you're free four years from now, you're still going to have to make an entirely new life and really hide from your old life, whether you would legitimately or illegitimately. So those were the priorities then. And I wasn't up against the wall.
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Are they treating you pretty good? Well, yeah. Yeah, sure they are. That's good. They've developed this paranoia about me. They have this unrealistic fear that I'm going to escape or something. I can't imagine where they're getting that. Yes, exactly. Let's see. I just wanted to call you up. You know, mainly there's a lot of A lot of things have been happening.
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I mean, it was something I could have done then, something I could have waited to do. But it was just, I honestly just fed, you know, way up above my chin with being the,
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being locked up right yeah just one of those things yeah but uh still there's still the scars and the blisters of my feet i'm sitting here barefoot from running around in the mountains extraordinary experience because i i had thought that i was i mean a pretty strong-willed person but you know believe it or not it was the body that was strong but the mind that was weak that the morning after
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Well, I ran up, you know, like 4,000 feet of very steep hills. Actually, Aspen was on the other side. They didn't know where in the world I was. And I was feeling really good that evening, and I started hiking up. And if I had kept on hiking, I would have been long gone. But a very cold sleet and rainstorm hit me, and I got very cold. Then I went into a state of shock and managed to find a cabin.
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And the cabin was just, you know, there was no way to get into it. And here it was shivering and hungry and cold. It was raining and blowing. And early the next morning, like 7 o'clock in the morning, and I was just sitting there, seriously considering giving myself up. And it was just a complete mind blow for me. Yeah. Just longed for freedom for so long.
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And now, like I was living my ultimate dream, all of a sudden I was willing to throw it away because I was cold and hungry. And I said, my Lord. But I got in the cabin and recuperated, believe it or not, and had a second chance at it. And then I made the wrong turn, and then I hurt my knee, and three, four days of high altitude and cold got to me. And again, my mind got weak.
Crimeatorium
The Bundy Tapes
And it really kind of, again, when I was recaptured, I just stood there. I mean, I was just, that night, I walked back into Aspen. No one knew me. People got me. No one could recognize me. But I just was totally disoriented. It was like an experience I'd never known before. I just laid down like an animal ready to die. It was just an incredible experience.
Crimeatorium
The Bundy Tapes
I was disoriented, and quite frankly, I hopped in a car and just drove. I knew I'd get caught. I mean, I didn't want to get caught, but I knew it would happen, but I was just so tired. The best of the alternatives. Yeah, and I just said, well... just to see what happens. And a fluke, actually, they stopped me. But, you know, anyway, that was one of the more profound experiences.
Crimeatorium
The Bundy Tapes
Certainly did cause a furor. Mm-hmm. And you're spending most of your afternoons in the law library, are you? Oh, yeah.
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The Bundy Tapes
I go up there every day for three hours. Huh. And... Imagine you're really learning law. Oh, goodness sakes. Yeah, I'm pretty darn good at the soul process. I won a couple fairly significant victories on Friday. Let's see, I go last Friday in court. And I suppose that I've learned that I've learned what the pitfalls of being one, of representing oneself are, and so I'm going to avoid those.
Crimeatorium
The Bundy Tapes
But for the time being, I am doing a great, I am doing the, in the case, and the research. And I think we're pretty successful at, I don't know, considering the kinds of resources that are amassed against me and the, you know, the various law enforcement agencies and
Crimeatorium
The Bundy Tapes
prosecutors who are working on this case uh i think i'm more than holding my own i think i'm giving him fits quite frankly and and i don't it's not just me i mean i'm not here i'm not you know uh i'm not some genius or anything i think but the fact the matter is you know such a rather decrepit case that they're really having a hard time uh putting it together, to say the least.
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The Bundy Tapes
And at the preliminary hearing, she looked at me and she looked around the courtroom and picked an undersheriff as the person she had seen.
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The Bundy Tapes
So their case kind of collapsed at that point. Oh, yeah. But right now they're, you know, they're hanging in there. I give them credit for that. Yeah. Yeah. So how are things over there? I've always wondered about you and a lot of my friends there and everything. I heard there was a killing not too long ago.
Crimeatorium
The Bundy Tapes
You know, the escape adventure, which caused a great furor of activity around here, and I guess some publicity over there. And now we're looking at what looks like a 95% chance of a new trial in the Carol Drange case. And while this case over here gets curiouser and curiouser because...
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The Bundy Tapes
Not as yet. It's a rather expensive trip. Aspen's an expensive place to stay.
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The Bundy Tapes
It's a short question deserving a long answer. I'm doing well. I feel good. Working hard on my case. Need a lot more sun and a lot more Fresh air, but other than that, I'm doing OK.
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The Bundy Tapes
Well, I get to go to the library. It's a 50-yard walk from here across the parking lot to the library. That's my fresh air.
Crimeatorium
The Bundy Tapes
Well, when I was on the main line, as they say, in medium security, I had a lot more freedom, you bet. A big yard to walk in, and a basketball court, and handball court. Your standard medium security life in a prison is a fairly decent existence, relatively speaking, to a county jail. County jails are, by and large, pretty confined and inhibiting sort of places.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the crime lab isn't gonna test 300 samples of blood from every different location in that house. The purpose of DNA is to identify who is our perpetrator. With Sabrina Teague's blood on his hands, literally, her blood on the knife, DNA consistent with Mr. Kerr and his son Teague on the tire iron.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The DNA evidence that was tested is consistent and confirms what an eyewitness told you and what Mr. Cahir himself confessed to. At the end of this case, you will be presented with all the facts, but you'll also be presented then with jury instructions. Those jury instructions outline the elements that the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As we discussed briefly at Gwadir, the elements for first degree intentional homicide are relatively straightforward. Did Mr. Cater cause their death? And did he do so with intent to kill? Both will be abundantly clear after you hear the evidence in this case. For all the reasons I've stated above, we know our perpetrator. He himself admitted to it. We have an eyewitness with DNA.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He's found unseen covered in blood. It doesn't get any simpler than that in terms of who committed these offenses. His intent to kill is likewise clear. You will hear from the medical examiner about the abundant, vicious injuries these two women suffered. There can be no other intent when you stab someone ten times or more.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She eventually became employed by the U.S. Postal Service and had retired shortly before this savage and senseless crime. She loved ballroom dancing, shopping, and playing the piano. Sabrina Teague was born on December 15, 1992, in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and graduated from Pulaski High School. She was employed at Perkins and wanted to be a social worker.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There can be no other intent when you batter someone so badly with a tire iron and stab them and have them hanging by a rope in the bathroom. What else could Mr. Kare's intent have been but to kill those two women? Likewise with Joel. You won't be asked whether he caused the injury, whether he attempted to do this, and whether he intended to kill Joel.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel has a gaping wound in his arm from a through-and-through stab from a large kitchen knife that went into his chest. The amount of force necessary to clear through someone's arm and then through the chest, what other intent could he have had at that moment but to kill Joel Kennedy? It will be abundantly clear to you when you hear the evidence in this case.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You'll also hear about some of the other collateral crimes that are associated with this that are for your consideration here. And that is burglary. He's charged with burglary or entering a residence with the intent to commit a felony. Clearly entered the residence. You're able to see the area in Sabrina's room where he entered. Without their consent, they weren't home.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Broke through a bedroom window. And obviously his crimes that he committed in terms of killing them and attempting to kill Joel are his felony offenses that he attempted. That was his intent in entering that residence that day. And then finally, there are two counts of bail jumping. Meaning Mr. Kerr was on bond in two other criminal cases.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
One of the standard conditions of bond in those cases is that you cannot commit any other criminal offenses while on bond. You can be released from custody, but there is a statutory condition that you cannot commit crimes while released on bond.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So if you find Mr. K guilty of committing the homicides and committing the burglary, committing the attempted homicide, if you find him guilty of any one of those, he naturally is also guilty of the bail jumping because he was on bond in those two criminal cases at this time. You will also hear about a jury instruction about reasonable doubt, proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That is the highest burden in the criminal justice system. It's the highest burden in our entire justice system, that the state must prove to you that there is evidence to support each element of these crimes beyond a reasonable doubt. We are confident that if you listen carefully to the evidence in this case, and you give a fair and impartial consideration of that evidence,
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
that you will clearly find that the state has met its burden of proof with respect to each of those elements beyond your reasonable doubt.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that is what we ask of you here today, that you give a fair and impartial consideration of all the evidence that will come before you over the next few days, that you consider it carefully in deliberations, and that you render the only verdict that we think is possible in this case, the only verdict, the only reasonable inference in this case,
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The only reasonable hypothesis in this case is that Mr. Kerr committed these crimes and that he intended to commit these crimes and that you will find him guilty.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Lissette. Mr. Cotton?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Good morning, everybody. Can everybody hear me okay? Okay. I wanted to start by thanking everybody for being here for this very important case. As the state indicated, you're here today to decide whether Mr. Koehler is responsible for these crimes and I'm not going to get into the details of the offenses because you just heard a little bit of an overview.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What I do want to mention is that opening statements are not evidence. Opening statements are simply the, and that's why you're not taking notes right now, opening statements are simply the observations of the attorneys. Evidence is what you hear in court. Evidence is what you hear from witnesses who take the stand.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Evidence is what you hear when, whether it's an expert witness or a police officer witness, evidence is what you hear when an individual comes in here and offers their observations to you. We have a system of justice in this country that I think is the best in the world, and it's a very important system of justice. Defendants are presumed innocent at all stages of the proceedings.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You've probably heard about that in your personal lives, and we talked about that a little bit in jury selection, but every defendant is presumed innocent under the law.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In that presumption of innocence remains with the defendant, with Mr. Kher, the presumption of innocence remains throughout the whole trial, only until such time if the state is able to introduce evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. The reason why we have such a standard is because defendants are not required to prove their innocence. In other words,
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She was shy and a fierce protector to those she loved. i cannot adequately describe the lives of hisan and sabrina only a family member and those closest to them can do that sarah may teague has a blog where she is brutally honest about the impact this crime has had on her and gives the readers a glimpse into who hisan and sabrina were
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
some systems have a requirement that a person come into court and start putting on evidence to show why they didn't do a particular crime that's not the system that our founding fathers created here in america they created a system where defendant is presumed innocent and you as jurors despite what you might hear an opening statement are required to follow that very important principle and remember at all times that you are to presume that mr care is innocent of these
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
very, very serious crimes. We'd ask that as you sit here through this trial, this will be a multi-day trial, we're sure of that.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I think the parties will work very hard to make sure we can move the case along for you as efficiently as possible because it's important that things that we can agree on, we'll try our best to agree on those things, but there will be a number of points that we don't agree on, of course, in which time there will be cross-examination of witnesses. Jacob Cahill is the defendant here.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Back on Friday when we did our jury selection, we talked a little bit about a defendant testifying, and I had mentioned during jury selection that, of course, a defendant has a constitutional right not to testify. So a defendant has sort of two rights in that vein, the right to choose not to testify, but the other end of that coin is that the defendant has the right to testify.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And this may very well be a case where, in addition to cross-examining the state's witnesses that they put on, this may very well be a case where Mr. Kerr will choose to testify and give his version of events for you folks. So I want you to keep an open mind throughout the entire case that you're hearing, because the state has the right to go first.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They're the ones that get to introduce the first witnesses. But then we have an opportunity after the state has, they say, rested, we have an opportunity to present witnesses if we might choose to do so, including at a second phase of the trial if it ever got to that. But of course, in the first phase of the trial, Mr. Kerr as a witness testifying about his version of events.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The most important thing from our perspective, folks, is that you keep an open mind throughout these proceedings.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We hope that all of you can follow your oath very seriously by remembering that Mr. Cater is presumed innocent at all stages of the proceeding, keeping an open mind about what you're hearing, and realizing that in many cases, you've heard the expression, there's two sides to every story.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I would go so far as to say there's oftentimes a bigger picture of what's happening, and sometimes we have to think very carefully about what the bigger picture is when we're making the decisions that are so important in this case.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And I would urge you to remember that there's always a bigger picture at play that we believe will, by the end of these proceedings, the end of this week, will be evident to you folks, and you'll find Mr. Cater not guilty. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We will now begin with the state calling its first witness to elicit evidence on the issue of guilt. Mr. Lassay, your first witness.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Your Honor, in lieu of a witness, the state is going to play the 911 calls. It's my understanding that parties have stipulated that the 911 calls can be entered without the need of someone from dispatch to confirm them.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. All right, so that's the agreement. Go ahead, Mr. Lassay. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It is quite profound and I'm grateful to have been given a little insight into Heesun and Sabrina's lives. I encourage you all to read it. There will be a link in the show notes. Also, Sarah May took the stand and described Heesun and Sabrina to the court. Jacob Kare took the stand for direct and cross-examination.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
1-3-6-8? Oh, shit, he's trying to break into the house now. Okay, you said 1-3-6-8. Remember the old drive? 1-3-6-8. Okay, and someone's trying to break into your house? They already broke in. I'm standing here. I'm bleeding out. Okay, do you have a weapon? Yes.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What does he have? I don't know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He's running outside the door. Okay, do you know who he is? How many people are in your house right now? Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And can you guys tell us, where is he right now?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Where is the male?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Where did he stab you? Okay. Okay. Is that anyone else who gets injured?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
My girlfriend and her mom are injured. What happened to them?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They got stabbed, I believe. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Where are they right now? Are they by you? No. Okay, and you don't know, can you hear them at all? No. Okay, do you have a description of them? Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, and long brown hair with black shirt and blue jeans? Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right. And do you know if he came in the vehicle or on foot?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And do you... You didn't see it. How did he get into the house? Does anyone know him?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know. He was here when we got up here.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. How long ago did this start happening?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It was right when we got home about 15 minutes ago.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. And you don't know where they were stabbed at all?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Okay. Does he get any money to pay for getting a lot of help? Do you have any other descriptions? Did he have any tattoos? What type of knife did he have? I don't know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know. I think it was at the kitchen, right? Okay. I don't know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Did you hear anyone else in the house? No. Do you know if there was another person that had a knife or anything?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't know. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And when is the last time that you saw your girlfriend and your mom?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
My girlfriend was fighting with my mom. I don't know if you don't hear that. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
How long ago was that, do you know?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
About five minutes. I think he might be gone. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It is quite long, he rambles off topic, and there are a lot of sounds from the microphone. I debated on whether to cut some of it out, but in the end, I kept it all because the interaction between him and the attorneys, as well as getting a feel for his mental state, is interesting. Just like with any trial, the sound level and quality varies.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Call her. Okay. But you didn't hear, you don't know where the other two females are at, correct? No, no, no.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you said he had long brown hair and his clothing was a black shirt and blue jeans?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, I believe so.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. And you didn't notice any tattoos or any scars on his face or anything?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. All right. And you don't think you knew him either? No.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Um, it's my girlfriend's ex-boyfriend.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It's your girlfriend's ex-boyfriend?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Do you know his name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Jake? I don't know what his last name is.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What is his first name, do you think?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, what is your girlfriend's name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What's her last name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
T-E-A-G-U-E. Okay. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right. And you're still locked in the bathroom?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, I am. We're going to stay here until we have to get here. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right, you're doing the job I'm calling, okay? And you were stabbed in the arm, you said? Yes. Okay, how was that for you?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
A lot of blood.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, you're losing a lot of blood?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, I have a towel on it, but it's okay. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The paramedics will be able to clean that up, okay? Okay, thank you. Do you hear them there? No. Okay, I'm going to stay on the phone with you until you hear all the stairs, okay?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, do you know if any of the doors are unlocked?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, they're not. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Doors aren't locked? No.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, is there a garage door that they can use to get in?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, there is a garage door. What is that?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you have a spare key outside or anything?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There is a spare key on the front door of the new block.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, do you have any idea where he lives? No. Okay, and do you hear anyone yet?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They need to help us kick the door in.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You said, okay, you're saying they need to kick the door in?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What is your name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, J-O-E-L.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And your last name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Like I said, they're going to be able to clean you up, okay? I'm sure of that.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Oh, it fucking hurts.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe it. Do you hear anyone outside yet?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This one is pretty good overall, and even though on the stand K.R. claims he was able to fix the audio of his lengthy interview with the police, I was not, so I didn't include it.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't hear anybody.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. What type of vehicle should be in the driveway?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
A gray Chevy Cobalt. Is that it? Are they here?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We do have officers in the area, but I'm gonna wait for them to get in the house to disconnect, okay?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You, oh, you're not with your girlfriend. You're not sure what type of vehicle that male would be driving if he had it?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I do not know, no. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then was it your mom that was in the house with you or was it your girlfriend?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It was my girlfriend's mom.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you know her? What's her name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He's son. H-E-E-S-U-N. Okay. T. T-E-E-G? T-E-A-T-U-E. Okay. Thank you very much.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, not a problem. How are you doing?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I've been in a lot of pain, so this and that are okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. And it's bleeding control at all?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What's going on?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I just looked at it. All I did was look at the towel and spray.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, don't look at it. Just keep it covered and hope your medics get there. Okay. Okay, and do you have pressure on the itch to stop the bleeding?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. And where is it on your arm?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. I appreciate that you all showed up today. This is obviously extraordinary times and we're taking extraordinary measures here in the courtroom to make sure that everybody feels safe. And I appreciate that you showed up and that you're willing to hear this case. It's very important to the state, it's very important to Mr. that you do that.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
On my left arm, yeah.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. You're doing good, Joel, okay?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what was the last thing that you felt after you knocked him out?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She's in the shower, in the bathtub.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What bathroom are you in? Is there two stories?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It's two stories. There's two bathrooms on the first floor.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm in the bathroom. That's in the first back of the house.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. And so you think you're in the back of the house bathroom and she might be in the front?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, she's in the front bathroom.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Rachel, have you heard anything yet?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I think he's gone though.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I think he's gone.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Oh, that's fine. I'm gonna stay on the phone with you, like I said, until officers come and approach you. And you, Rachel, you don't have any weapons on you, do you? Um, I got one loaded. Okay, I need you to put that away.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I closed it on the counter in the bathroom.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I closed it on the counter in the bathroom. Okay. Should I close the door?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know. I know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They're trying to make sure that you're safe, okay?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Are they here? Is there any way to find out?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, they are, but they're going on the perimeter, okay? They're just making sure that no one else is in the house and that you stay safe.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So that's why I'm staying on the house with you, and we're going to make sure that you cover that room, okay? Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What did you say? So what... Okay, are you, are you still there Joel? Yes.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, what did you say was the name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He went inside the home and attacked them when they come in.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. It's good that you called right away, okay? Just remember that, Joel. Yeah. Okay. And how much are you bleeding, man?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm still bleeding heavily. Okay. And my heart is numb.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, just hold on one second, okay, Joel?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, Joel, I need you to walk towards the front door to the front entrance. Let me know what you're saying, okay?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Are they inside?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, they're asking you to walk towards the front door so they've already secured the house, okay? All right. Let me know when you're going to open up the door. Did you open up the door?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As the court indicated, the purpose of an opening statement is to sort of provide a guide map or an outline for where we think the case is going to go. It's not an opportunity to make arguments at this point, and my statements aren't evidence. They merely introduce to you what I think the evidence will show. Sitting at council table is highly unusual for me during an opening statement.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. All right. Please come up to the witness stand.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy Justin Raska, R-A-S-K-A.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy Raska, can you state for the record how you are employed? I'm a patrol deputy with Brown County Sheriff's Office. And how long have you been with the Brown County Sheriff's Office? About eight and a half years. And were you working in your capacity as a sheriff's deputy on June 7, 2016 at approximately 8 p.m.? Yes, sir.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And do you recall being dispatched to a scene at 1368 Riverdale Drive in the village of Hobart? Yes, sir. When you responded to this scene, were there other officers or deputies on scene?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I responded immediately when it was dispatched out. I don't think anybody was on scene immediately, but there were people on scene prior to my arrival.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, who was on scene when you got there?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Officer Radloff with Hobart Lawrence PD, K-9 Deputy Brad Dernbach with Brown County Sheriff's Office, and right before me, Deputy Miller, Eric Miller with Brown County Sheriff's Office.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, do you know if there was an O-9 PD officer there when you arrived yet or no? I don't know if he was there yet, no. Deputy Raska, I'm going to show you what has been marked as Exhibit 1 at 1. Can you describe that photograph?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, kind of in the center of the photograph is the residence, 1368, that we responded to, County J or Riverdale Drive, kind of at the lower corner of that address. After you arrived, where did you go? I met with Eric Miller. I believe we met with Deputy Dernbach and Randy Radloff somewhere in the area right down here, kind of in front of the address.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then I stayed with Eric Miller and I approached the house. Okay, and from which direction did you and Deputy Miller approach the house? Deputy Miller and I approached kind of along this tree line. It's kind of like a hedge or shrub tree line along here. Deputy Miller and I approached kind of in between the tree line and this neighboring house, 1378.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And it was just the two of you who made that approach? Correct. And for the record, that was the driveway to 1368. It's right in the middle. There's a tree line just to the right of that driveway, and you approached to the right of that tree line. Is that correct? Correct. And then I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1, App 2. Can you indicate what's depicted in that photograph?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is the residence of 1368 right here. Residence of 1378 right here. Riverdale Drive or County J. John. This would have been, I believe it was probably this path right through here that Deputy Miller and I approached 1368.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The court indicated we're taking measures to make sure everything can be heard. If you are at all having trouble hearing me or understanding what I'm saying because of the mask or because of the lack of volume or whatever it may be, please raise your hand and alert the court and let us know. You're here today to hear the case of the state of Wisconsin versus Jacob Kayer.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, so just indicating with the laser pointer, again, just to the right of the tree line and right of the driveway. Upon your approach to that residence, what did you observe?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy Miller and I were approaching the residence. We observed a female body laying face down in the grass behind 1378.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So I'm showing you what's been previously marked as Exhibit 1F3. What is depicted in that photograph?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is believed to be the female victim that we had located as we were making our approach.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And when you observed her, can you describe what you saw?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Saw a female that was laying face down in the grass. Immediately began giving commands to that female, not knowing what her involvement in the situation was whatsoever. Gave commands to the female and received no response whatsoever. Deputy Miller and I then approached the female, and I observed her again laying face down in the grass.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I could see that she had wounds on her back that were indicative of what probably would have been stab wounds.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you made that observation of the female line there, did you see any other parties around?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you're with Deputy Miller at that point? Correct. The two of you both approached her together? Correct. What do you do with her body?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe I checked for a pulse initially while she was still laying face down on the grass. I did feel what I thought was a pulse, so I rolled the female victim over onto her back then, so her chest was exposed to me. I again observed a couple wounds that were indicative of what I believe to be stab wounds.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And I felt for not only a carotid pulse, but also a radial pulse on her wrist as well, attempting to observe any signs of life. In addition to feeling for a pulse, did you attempt any life-saving measures yourself? I did. I began CPR when I could no longer feel a pulse.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
At some point in time, did Rescue arrive on scene to take over for you?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, Rescue arrived on scene along with a couple other officers or deputies from different agencies, and they took over the life-saving portion of the female victim while I continued to kind of search the area after that. After Rescue came and took over for you, what was the next thing that you did?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Because trials can be quite sterile when talking about victims, I wanted to take a few minutes and describe these two women who were so undeserving of the crimes perpetrated against them. Sarah May Teague, his son's daughter and Sabrina's sister, said it best when she said, They were more than the ex-girlfriend and the mother.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I met up then, I believe it was with Deputy Famry, who was on scene, or it could have been O-Night Officer Logan Webster, actually. There were a couple outbuildings that were behind 1378, including...
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Bring you back to exhibit 1F1 to allow you to show where the outbuildings are.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, there's a garage, and I believe, I don't know if this is a shed or what else was back there, but there were a couple outbuildings behind 1378. Obviously, being in the immediate area of where one of these victims were laying, we wanted to search the area to make sure that the suspect was not actively in one of those buildings.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What you will hear is that on June 7th, 2016, Jacob Kerr turned 1368 Riverdale Drive in the village of Hobart into a real-life horror movie. Sabrina Teague and her live-in boyfriend Joel Kennedy, they walked on the scene of that horror movie at 8 p.m. that night. When they entered the home through the garage door, Sabrina walked into the home. They could hear the shower running in the bathroom.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you were searching the outbuildings behind the residence that you'd indicated as 1378, did you notice any parties on scene at that time? No. After searching or clearing those outbuildings, what did you do next?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I met up with Deputy Famry kind of in the driveway of 1368, kind of in this area right here, right on the corner.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's the area still kind of blocked by the tree, but just in front of what, the garage of 1368? Correct.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We had then checked this garage as well. I believe this is the garage for 1368, one of the detached garages for 1368. So Deputy Samary and I then checked that garage, and we weren't able to locate anybody inside that garage as well.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's the garage to the right of the residence on this photograph? Correct. All right. After doing that, what was the next thing that you did?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I had waited, we waited around briefly in front of the address, kind of in that driveway area again, for Lieutenant McCauley and K9 Deputy Dernbach. Deputy Dernbach had decided that at that point he wanted to attempt a track for the suspect using his partner pal, his K9 partner pal.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So I had met with him, and him and I kind of went off on me covering him, me following him, and we conducted a track kind of around the yard of 1368.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you aware at that time when you started the track if the complaining witness had exited the residence at that time? No, I wasn't aware of that at that time, no. That was not part of your responsibility? No. I want to bring you back to 1F3. Did you make any observations of the area around the body of the female? No, no, I didn't.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Back on 1F1, if you could use the laser pointer to depict the area where you believe Deputy Dernbach was when you started the track.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you mind if I go back to that last question? I was thinking of the environment immediately around her. I do recall that there was blood in the grass around her, around her body. I don't know if that was part of an answer to the question you were looking for, but specifically when I would kneel next to her to perform CPR, there was blood on the ground next to her in the grass.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you note any direction or any direction of travel or anything of that nature? Not that I recall. No, it was kind of pooling around here. All right. Back to 1F1, if you could note on there the area where you began the track with Deputy Dernbach. Yes, sir.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So we started in a counterclockwise manner. We kind of... Again, you would have to refer to him and how he works his partner. But we kind of moved in this direction around the yard, along the tree line, him looking for whatever reaction he would look for with his canine partner, and I was essentially his cover officer.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
His primary responsibility was that dog and finding that track, and I wanted to make sure that he was safe.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
At some point in time, did Deputy Nirenbach indicate to you that his dog had sort of developed a track or a scent? Yes, sir. And do you know about where that location was when the dog started a specific track?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It would have been in this back corner. I don't know exactly where we went into the tree line, but essentially we stopped. We went into the tree line a few feet, maybe five feet, and stopped, and Officer Dernbach then asked for more units because he made it appear as though his dog was indicating on something in that tree line. And did other units arrive for support? Yeah.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy Miller then arrived back at our location along with Officer Logan Webster.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And once those two cover officers arrived along with yourself and Deputy Dernbach, what did you do?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We continued on to this wooded line. I was at Deputy Dernbach's rear. So, again, providing safety cover for him who obviously had the responsibility of following his dog. We went into the wood line a little bit, and Deputy Dernbach indicated that his dog was hitting heavy on a specific area inside the wood line. Can you describe the vegetation in there? Thick, dark.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I remember, I think I took my flashlight even out at some points because it was dark in that area. Considerably darker than standing out in the yard. I remember it wasn't like grown-up vegetation. It wasn't very large trees, but it was thick cover in there.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And do you recall about what time it was when you started to make that track? I don't remember the exact time frame.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It wouldn't have been probably around the 8.30 time. It wasn't too much longer after we had arrived on scene. CPR was given to the female victim, and then we met up with Officer Deputy Dernbach. It shouldn't have been too much longer after that point.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And once the track was initiated... Did the dog locate a subject fairly quickly? Yes. And do you know on that overhead roughly where the subject was located?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe it was going to be back in this corner right here. I remember there was a kind of a small clearing area with tall grass or weeds. The male suspect was laying down in, and that's where the dog had indicated, and that's kind of where Deputy Dernbach was giving his commands to him.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Can you describe the process then after you kind of discovered the male? Who makes contact with him first?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Sabrina walked to the first floor bathroom. where her mother's dead and badly beaten body was located. She took out her phone to call 911, started walking back toward the kitchen area where Joel was located. Mr. Kerr jumped out of the door in the laundry room and attacked them with a knife. This is a real life horror movie description. Mr. Kerr
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, so Deputy Dernbach was giving out commands to the male. At that point in time, he has to determine whether he's going to let his dog engage that suspect. K-9 PAL did engage the suspect, and then... Yeah, Deputy Miller and I came up, and one of us took, I believe Deputy Miller took his left arm. I took his right wrist. We got on each side of the suspect.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
First and foremost, we wanted to make sure that he didn't have any weapons on him. He wasn't complying at first, and then we were able to see that his hands were empty. That's when we went hands-on with him, and we were able to secure one arm. I secured the other, and we were able to put handcuffs on him.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you and Deputy Miller are the two people that put him in handcuffs? Yes. You indicated that he wasn't complying immediately. Was it a relatively short period of time where there was struggle, or how did that go down?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, when Deputy Dernbach had initially given him commands, it was show me your hands, indicated that he probably saw him in the grass, show me your hands. There was no compliance there. He wasn't indicating that he wasn't giving up to law enforcement. He wasn't showing us his hands or anything. or showing that he was there. So that was the time of non-compliance.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Past that, then when K-9 PAL engaged with the suspect, then we were able to see that his hands were empty and we were able to go hands-on with him and no longer had our weapons out at that point.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you able to make any specific observations of the male's person after you went hands-on with him?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, I remember he had damage to, he was wearing blue jeans. He had damage to his blue jeans as far as where the canine would have engaged. I believe that would have been on his left thigh kind of hip area. And there was a lot of blood. There was a lot of blood not only where the canine had engaged, but I remember his pants being full of blood as well. He had a bandage around one of his hands.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I want to say it was his right hand. And then he was wearing some sort of bandana face mask kind of hanging around his neck.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Was it covering or concealing his face at that point in time? No, I don't believe so. Do you recall any of the officers, or specifically you yourself, did you observe Mr. Kerr before? The dog engaged with him?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I could see that there was something or someone in the grass. I wasn't able to make any observations or identify somebody specifically in the grass, especially where the canine had indicated. The canine doesn't indicate for that general area. He was very specific on there was somebody laying right there in the grass. After the handcuffs were placed on Mr. Cater, where did you go with him?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We had assisted him off the ground. We had never walked him. Yeah, the previous photo. We had walked him over to this clearing area right here. This is Exhibit 1, App 6. Just on this side of the tall grass or wheelie area. I was on one arm. I believe I was on his right side. I believe it was Deputy Miller that would have been on his left side then.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And his hands being behind his back, we were able to kind of carry him underneath his arms, underneath his shoulders, and carry him to that area. He was upright, but he wasn't exactly walking on his own power at that point. And what happened when he got out into that clearing? Looked him over for injuries, asked him if he needed rescue if he had injuries.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't remember any straightforward responses. I think there was some incoherent mumbling that came from him. But there were no obvious signs of injury other than that left thigh hip area that that pal had engaged him on.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you involved in any search or processing of Mr. Kerr at that scene? No, I had actually turned him over.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were Green Bay PD officers that were arriving on scene. I believe there were Green Bay PD officers that arrived on scene. We kind of handed him off, the suspect, over to the officers at the time just because...
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
For me personally, it was something that I had just been involved in finding him and it was that high stress situation where we hand him off to another officer and they can perform the search and follow up that's needed.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have an opportunity to observe the suspect's face?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I remember his face being almost like he got in a fight. I think he had like a fat lip or bruising around his mouth. He had long blonde hair kind of disheveled like he had been hiding in the woods. Didn't appear as though he had just cleaned up and had walked out of the house.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right. After handing him off to the Green Bay police officers, do you have any further involvement at that point? Not in that case, no. Thank you.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No further questions at this time.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. Mr. Cotton?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Good afternoon, sir. You were present when Mr. Kayer was found in the tall grass there on that picture, right? Correct. Do you know how he got to that tall grass? I do not. Do you know whether he walked there under his own power or whether somebody else brought him there? I do not. You never saw him go there, it would be fair to say. Correct.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you talked about, I think you used the phrase incoherent mumbling. Did I hear that correctly? Correct. Who was making incoherent mumbling? Mr. Taylor. When did that happen?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That would have been once we had made physical contact with him, once we had taken him into custody, there were simple questions that I had asked as far as what is your name, and I didn't get a coherent response from him. Can you elaborate what it sounded like?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
attacked both sabrina and joel in the living room joel kennedy is an eyewitness to this event who survived the brutal attack from mr care not unharmed mind you but with significant injuries himself a struggle ensued in the kitchen mr kennedy was able to go outside to the garage and grab a snow shovel The struggle continued in the garage area as Sabrina and Mr. Kare poured out into the garage.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I wouldn't be able to replicate it. I don't know what it would have sounded like. Okay, so not actual words you could even make out. Correct. Okay, so when you say mumbling, you're not sure what was even coming out of his mouth. Correct. And you said you could tell that his face looked like he had been in a fight. Did you say that?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know what my exact words were there, if he had been in a fight. But it looked like, like you said, he had a fat lip. He had... He wasn't, his fat lip, he was sweating. It wasn't like he was clean cut just walking out of the house.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
A fat lip would be consistent with somebody being struck in the face or the head, fair to say? Did you examine his body with your, did you do any physical examination to see whether he had any lumps or bruises on his head?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You just saw the fat lip and the disheveled appearance? Right. Would it be fair to say there was no drugs or contraband located on Mr. Kayer in that area? Not that I saw. And the observations of Kayer, you noticed that his jeans were torn, and you attribute that to the dog biting him, right? Correct. Okay, because you saw the dog engage with him. Correct.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When Mr. Kayer was found in that area there, I'm assuming you were walking up to that location. Is that fair to say? When he was found in the grass? Yeah. It kind of threw the woods. Okay. And did you ever at any point see him running?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. You saw him laying there? Correct. Would it be fair to describe him as passive in a way in terms of how you found him? Yes. No active resistance? No.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Besides initially not showing us his hands, actively trying to hide his hands or keep them underneath his body, once the canine engaged with him and we were able to see his hands, after that he never fought with us. He didn't show any other kind of active resistance towards us.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Got it. He wasn't struggling with the officers. Right. And in terms of him laying there with his hands... You can't say what he did or didn't hear. Would you agree with that? Correct. Okay. So K.R. is laying there in the grass. The dog bites him and he pulls his hands out. Fair to say? For the most part, yes. Okay. And there's no weapon in his hands, right? Correct.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you can see that because you're looking with your own eyes, right? Correct. And then that's when you go hands-on and start handcuffing him. Correct. And as you are handcuffing him, he's not twisting around trying to get you off of him or get away, right? Correct. So he complies with that process, would be fair to say? Yes, sir. And then you did do a report in this case, didn't you, sir?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, sir. And you had a chance to review it before your testimony today? Yes, sir. Okay. Fair to say your report is an accurate summary of what took place? Yes, sir. You described Mr. K or do you not as partially walk under his own power. Did you use that expression? In my report? Yeah. I believe that's what it says in my report, yes.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The male suspect was conscious and breathing and would only partially walk under his own power. Yes, sir. Is that accurate? Yes. Can you explain what that phrase means, partially walk under his own power?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, I remember his legs being underneath him, as I had described, me being on his right-hand side. My left arm was kind of hooked underneath his shoulder, his right shoulder.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
sort of strength or power to keep him up from from either collapsing back down on the ground falling back down on the ground and get him moving out into the the field itself he didn't stand he wouldn't have been able to stand unsupported on his own okay these things that you observed mumbling incoherently
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
One or more injuries to the face, disheveled appearance, partially walking under his own power. Would you agree with me that those things are consistent with somebody who suffered a head injury? Potentially. As a deputy, you've responded to accidents where people have had such injuries, right? Potentially, yes.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, thank you.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Any additional questions, Mr. Lassay?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy, you also had an opportunity to come into contact with suspects who are not fully cooperative with you when you're attempting to arrest them and move them. Is that fair to say? Yes, sir. The same types of behaviors, like not walking under his own power and not choosing to fully cooperate with officers, is that also consistent with a non-cooperative suspect? Yes, sir.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you able to specifically determine which was the case during this incident?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. No further questions. Thank you.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right. Thank you. You may step down.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do not move.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel struck Mr. Kare in the face with the shovel. There are physical injuries consistent with that. Mr. Kare went to the ground and Mr. Kennedy ran back in the house. He closed the door to the garage. He ran past the bathroom where his son, T, lay dead.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put the gun away.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put the taser away.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put the taser away.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put the taser away. Stop resisting! Stop resisting!
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Lay on your stomach.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put your hand behind your back.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have a witness to call?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I do have another witness prepared, yes. Okay. I would say we'll call Deputy Miller. Eric Miller, M-U-E-L-L-E-R. Deputy Miller, can you state for the record how you are employed?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I work for the Brown County Sheriff's Department. I've been there a little over seven years.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what is your current position with the Sheriff's Department? I'm a patrol deputy. Were you working in your capacity as a patrol deputy with the Sheriff's Department on June 7, 2016? Yes, I was. Shortly after 8 p.m., were you dispatched to a call in the village of Hobart? Yes, I was. On Riverdale Drive? Correct. Do you know what time the dispatch came out? I believe it was around 8.13 p.m.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what was the nature of the call based on the information provided to you by dispatch?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It came out as a weapons call. There was a male with a knife and there were multiple people that were stabbed.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy, when you arrived on scene, were there other officers present? Yes, there was. Who was present when you arrived?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy Dermbach was first on scene, and then I arrived shortly after, and then Deputy Raska arrived shortly after me. Do you know if there were officers from other departments on scene as well? There was from Hobart Lawrence and Oneida PD.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you arrived on scene, what did you do?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I was advised to start the approach with Deputy Raska. We were on the east side of the residence and approached to the north.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As you made your approach toward the residence, what did you observe?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We then approached to the back door of this residence, which the lights were on. We knocked multiple times, but there was no one home. No one came to the door. What did you do after that? I then walked to the rescue squad that was parked in the driveway right here, and then I was approached by the complainant, Joel Kennedy.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
into his son's room where he closed the door and locked it, into his son's bathroom in her master bedroom where he closed the door and locked it, and he called 911. You will hear that 911 call. You'll hear the panic in his voice. You'll hear him huffing and puffing, explaining how blood is spurting out of his arm.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel had walked to your location?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He did. And did you speak with him at all? I did for a short time. I was asking the description of the suspect, which he stated the guy's name was Jake. He was wearing blue jeans, a dark-colored T-shirt. And he had long brown hair. Did you make any observations of Joel's person?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I noticed that he was holding his left hand, and I believe he was applying pressure to a wound that he had on his left arm, which was bleeding heavily. Were you there to provide any assistance to him? I did not. Shortly after he gave me the description, rescue personnel attended him, and then Deputy Reese arrived and went with rescue and Joel.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After you spoke briefly with Joel, then what did you do?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I was then asked by Sergeant Lowell that Deputy Dermbach needed another deputy or two for a track in which I walked to the west of the tree line and I met with Deputy Dermbach, Deputy Roscoe, and I believe an Oneida officer in the corner of the residence, the northwest corner.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you indicate you walked up the tree line on the left side of the driveway to the left side of the back of the residence where you met with the other officers? Correct. Do you know if Deputy Dernbach had already been conducting a track at that point in time?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
From what I was told, I believe he was, and he was about to head into the tree line, which is where he stopped and waited for more officers. So you arrived to assist him? Yes, I did.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What did you do once you arrived with Deputy Dernbach?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I was providing lethal cover on his left side as we approached into the tree line with the canine.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
About how long after you arrived by Deputy Durenbach to provide cover did you ultimately locate an individual?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It wasn't very long. From what I recall, we were going straight north, and then the canine flirted to the left, and then shortly after that is when we engaged the suspect. Did you see the suspect prior to the canine engaging with him?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I did not. What are your observations when the K-9 engages?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
At that point, officers started giving commands. We tactically approached the individual. Deputy Raska obtained suspect's left arm, and then I went and took custody of his right arm, and then he was placed in a handcuffs eventually. Was the male cooperative with your commands? He was not.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He was not showing his hands at first, and it took a little bit of him resisting before we got him into custody.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After the male was placed in custody and the handcuffs were on him, what happened then?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We then walked him out to a clearing, which is where he was searched, patted down, and then we brought him from there to the rescue squad that was waiting on Camelot Court. Did you assist in bringing him to the clearing? I was walking with him, yes.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you make any observations of the defendant's person as he was walking to the clearing?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I know that he was very muddy, very dirty, appeared to be soaked in blood. Blue jeans are very dirty and ripped. He also had some sort of a black mask that was around his neck that appeared to be soaked in blood as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel Kennedy had been stabbed with a kitchen knife that went in one side, out the other, and into his chest. as he lay on the floor in the kitchen before getting up, kicking Mr. Kerr off and having the struggle ensue. He knew that Sabrina had been left with Mr. Kerr in the garage area of the home.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1G6. Can you identify that photograph?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That appears to be the area that the suspect was taken into custody. And at the top of that photograph, what can you observe sort of near the top of the photograph? This would have been the way that we walked out to the clearing.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then Exhibit 1G7, can you identify that photograph?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That would be briefly where we stopped and some items were taken off of him.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then we continued walking to the Camelot Court. So you believe he was the area where the cone indicates and there's sort of a pile of things. You think that's the area where he was searching and items were taken off of him? Correct. Did you do that or is that a different? I did not. But you were present when that happened? Correct. From that location, where was he taken?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We walked to Camelot Court. Do not know the specific address, but it was down at Camelot Court where a rescue was waiting.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
How was he acting when you were transporting him to the rescue?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He wasn't walking fully on his own. The officer had to assist him with walking him to rescue.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you able to gauge whether that was because he was not cooperative or whether he had any injuries or concerns? I do not recall. I also want to talk to you about your observations of his clothing. What do you remember that he was wearing?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Blue jeans, a dark-colored T-shirt, and he at some point had a bandage or a rag wrapped around one of his hands or fingers, and then that black face mask was around his neck. Was a concealer covering his face when you had contact with him? Not when we made contact, no.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You made observations of them being dirty or blood-soaked, is that right? Correct. At some point in time, did you actually come into contact with that clothing?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I did, yes. How did that happen? At some point, I believe it was a Green Bay officer handed me the bag of the shirt and pants that were cut off by rescue, along with some other items, a watch, a belt, and that blood-soaked rag was also handed over to me. What did you do with those items? Held on to them.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I rode with rescue to the hospital, and they stayed in my possession until I later entered into evidence at the Sheriff's Department.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You mentioned that you rode with rescue to the hospital.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Where were you physically located? I would have been sitting in the seat directly behind the cot that's in the back of the ambulance. So you were in the ambulance with Mr. Kerr? Correct.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you make any observations of Mr. Kerr while he was being transported by rescue?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He was making some statements in the back of the ambulance. Comments such as, fucking rapist. Why didn't you fucking kill me? Ike, where is he?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They... Can you describe the nature of the comments? I mean, obviously, you talked about the words that he used, but what was his tone of voice like? What was his speech pattern, things like that?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I would say a lot of yelling, screaming, not making a lot of sense with what he was saying. Who else was in the rescue squad with you? There was three rescue personnel, I believe a McKenzie Teske, an Olson, and I do not recall the... Third individual. Were you the only officer who was in there? Yes, I was. And then what happened when you arrived on scene at the hospital?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Once we arrived, Deputy Neurath had been following us from the scene all the way to the hospital. And at that point, when the doors opened, he was behind with the squad iPhone and he began a video recording. What did you do after you arrived at the hospital and Deputy Neurath began filming? I followed them. We went into the ER, into a room where staff attended to him.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Sabrina eventually opened the garage door and the struggle ensued and poured out of the garage into the driveway area, into some foliage and trees outside the residence. There is a blood trail leading There's a blood trail everywhere. This entire house is covered with blood.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What was your role on scene at that point? Basically just standing by, still holding on to that evidence, begging it. Did you make additional observations of the defendant while he was at the hospital? Still making a lot of weird comments, kind of yelling, screaming a little bit yet.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
At some point did his demeanor change while he was at the hospital? Not while I was there, no. You indicated that you had responsibility for the clothing. What did you end up doing with the clothing that had been cut off the defendant?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We had bagged it, and then we had later replaced it into the evidence at the sheriff's department, which being that it was still soaked in blood, we put it in the drying chamber. Who was we? Me and Deputy Neurath. Did you do that together?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, we did. And that was at the Brown County Sheriff's Office? Correct. Describe what it is to put something in the drying chamber.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Basically, you're taking the clothes out of the bag that it was first put in, putting it on a rack, putting it in this drying chamber, turning it on, locking it, and then I later put the key into evidence.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As you were putting those clothes in the drying chamber, were you able to make specific observations of the clothing itself?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Still notice that was very dirty, torn. Face mask, it was a black face mask with a skeleton design on the front. And then there was two holes cut out where your eyes would potentially be. No further questions at this time.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Cotton? Good afternoon. So, you had, as I understand it, been present in the ambulance when Mr. Kerr was transported to the hospital? Correct. And that's when the state was asking you about things that you heard. One of the things I think you said was, Ike, where is he? Correct. What does that mean? I have no idea.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
had you been asking something about had you brought anything up to trigger that type of comment i did not would we call these spontaneous utterances in a way you could say that sure okay i guess what i'm asking is was law enforcement engaging with mr care in the ambulance or were these just things that were coming out of his mouth just things that were coming out of his mouth
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You had said, I think, not making a lot of sense. Is that a fair way to describe it? Correct. Did any of it make any sense to you? From the time of the ambulance, no. Okay. And then the ambulance, how long would you say the ambulance ride to the hospital took? 15 minutes. And was Mr. Keir the whole 15 minutes just making statements, or were there periods of time where he was quiet?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There's a blood trail leading from the garage, down the driveway, into a tree line, and into the backyard of the neighbor's residence where Sabrina's body was located by law enforcement officers just minutes later. The knife covered in Sabrina's blood is located in that tree line by law enforcement officers the next day.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I would say there was periods of time where he was quiet. Like I said, the statements that I have in my report are the ones that I remember him saying.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have a recording of any of the statements that were made? I did not. No body cam on you? No. And you didn't use a personal phone or department phone to capture any of that, did you? No. So when you write the statements in your report, it's after you're done with your work, you went and typed the report and put the statements in there, right? Correct.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then Mr. Lassay asked you about Mr. Kerr at the hospital. You did see him in the hospital, right? Correct. So were you one of the officers or deputies who was present from the transfer out of the ambulance into the operating room? Were you present during that? Correct. And you made a statement just a few minutes ago that at the hospital there was, quote, lots of weird comments.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is that your testimony? Yes. I don't recall saying weird comments. Okay. How would you describe the statements Mr. Kerr was making at the hospital? Statements that weren't making much sense. Okay, so you don't think you said the phrase weird comments, but we can say not making sense? Correct. Okay. Not logical? Correct. And you said Mr. Kerr's demeanor did not change while he was at the hospital.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What did you mean by that?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
From the time that I was with him at the hospital, I wouldn't say that he... I mean, there's times where he would stop talking. But the comments that he was saying just wasn't making sense.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, in the same vein of Ike, where is he, fucking rapist, those types of things. Correct. Okay. Okay, that's all.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Any additional questions, Mr. Lucek? No, sir.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
exactly where Mr. Kerr diagrammed it in a map of his confession to law enforcement. This is a real life horror movie, ladies and gentlemen. It is not a mystery. We know exactly who caused these deaths. We know exactly what happened. Unlike many cases, this is not a situation where it's a whodunit. There is an eyewitness to the events that transpired, Joel Kennedy.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They were fully complex human beings, beautiful people, and I just want people to know that, and I love them. Hee-sun Teague was born in South Korea on January 13, 1952. Hee-sun, or Sunny as she was also known, immigrated to the United States at 30 years old and married James Teague. Together, they had two daughters, Sarah Mae and Sabrina. James died in 1999.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Kerr is found by law enforcement about 30 minutes after their arrival, hiding in the woods behind the house, covered in blood, where he's found by a K-9 unit from the Brown County Sheriff's Office. He is arrested. He is brought to the hospital, where he gives a detailed, many-hour confession to Sergeant Holschbach of the Brown County Sheriff's Office.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
DNA evidence is located on the knife, confirming that that was the knife that killed Sabrina Teague. Detailed DNA evidence is found on a tire iron located inside the house, which confirms that his son's blood is located on the curved end of that tire iron. And DNA consistent with Mr. Kayer is found on the handle. Sabrina Teague's blood is located on swabs from Mr. Cater's hands, both of them.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is not a whodunit, ladies and gentlemen. You have an eyewitness. You found on the scene covered in blood. A confession and DNA evidence. Over the course of the next few days, the state will present a number of witnesses to you to demonstrate that Mr. Kerr committed these offenses. As indicated, you will hear first the 911 call.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You will hear Joel Kennedy calling 911 and explaining to them what happened, that they were attacked in their home. You will hear them identifying it as Jake and identifying Mr. Kerr as Sabrina's ex-boyfriend. Joel will explain to you how he had met Jake on one prior occasion at Walmart.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There was a brief argument between Mr. Kare and Sabrina, but he was able to identify then Mr. Kare as Sabrina's ex-boyfriend. He will tell you Mr. Kare had never been to the home during the seven months that he lived with Sabrina at that residence. In addition to Mr. Kennedy's statement about what happened, You will hear about how law enforcement officers arrived on the scene shortly thereafter.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They came upon the scene making a tactical approach based on the nature of the call that came in from Mr. Kennedy that it was a weapons call. The officers who approached from the right side of the residence walked up into the neighbor's backyard where they saw Sabrina's body lying in the backyard. They rolled her over and attempted to administer aid, but she was deceased.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After that, other officers made contact with Mr. Kennedy at the front door of the residence, cleared the residence, walked Mr. Kennedy out of the residence where he was cooperative with law enforcement. He was removed to emergency services. Officers cleared the residence and began a perimeter search for Mr. Kayer. Shortly thereafter, officers located Mr. Kayer on scene.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He was taken into custody by the officers, brought to a clearing where he was searched, His pockets were emptied. In his pockets, there was rope, cord. In his pockets was Sabrina's cell phone. His clothes were covered in blood. The officers will tell you that his pants, his shirt, a mask or a head covering that he had, all had significant blood staining on them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The following is a condensed version of the 2020 trial for the murders of Sabrina Teague and her mother, Heesan Teague. 26-year-old Jacob Kayer was out on bond for two crimes. One of the conditions of that bond was that he commit no further crimes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Kerr was transported to the hospital and gave a detailed statement.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
to sergeant holschbach and sergeant yankee of the brown county sheriff's office it's not a situation where after 12 hours of being grilled he finally said yeah i did it you got me it is a detailed statement that indicates many aspects of this that are corroborated by the forensic evidence recovered on scene and the photographs that are taken by the state crime lab when they come to that scene he talks about the water running both the shower and the sink
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In the bathroom where his son Teague's body were both running when law enforcement arrived. You can hear it on the 911 tape. Officers will tell you that they turned that off. Mr. Kerr can talk about washing himself and washing his feet during his statement. Socks are recovered in the sink of that bathroom with his son Teague's blood on them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Kerr is barefoot when he's recovered by law enforcement officers. He talks about stabbing. There is a video. You will see a video of Mr. Kare taking a pen and reenacting the stabbing motion toward Sabrina Teague's neck and upper torso, consistent with a large stab wound to Sabrina Teague's neck, which unfortunately you will have to see in the photographs from the medical examiner.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Hee-sun married again, and he died in 2014, leaving her a widow once again. Hee-sun struggled for the first 15 years of her life in the United States. She endured through it all and went to college, secured a good job, and provided very well for her daughters. Hee-sun went to college and earned her CPA certificate. The exam for this course is difficult and rigorous.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He would talk about, in addition to the stabbing, that there was blunt force injuries, that he recalls swinging a hammer or an object like a hammer, not a hammer, but something like a hammer. He recalls swinging that. He believes in the bathroom, consistent with the tire iron recovered, and the significant blunt force injuries to Hisantique that you will observe.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He talks about riding his bike to the scene. He talks about putting on his headphones and getting angry and getting worked up listening to Hollywood Undead. You will find that his bike is recovered on scene. Officers noticed it in the tree line as they made the approach from the left hand side. He photographed his bike turned over on scene.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You will note that there's an open window outside of Sabrina's bedroom.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
clearly visible from the outside of the home that the window is ajar and then from the inside that that window is broken there's grass inside as if that was the area for forced entry we will also learn that officers recovered a backpack unseen a backpack filled with miscellaneous items mr care's identification card his driver's license inside that backpack along with knives scrapers
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
a rusty railroad spike, a hammer that is duct taped and fashioned as a weapon with a carabiner on it. There are zip ties recovered in the residence by Hesontigue's body, consistent with the zip ties found in Mr. Kerr's backpack. The tire iron used to kill Hesontigue is wrapped in duct tape. There's a roll of duct tape in Mr. Kerr's backpack.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There's duct tape around that hammer with the carabiner and fashioned as a weapon. He details the rage that he has and the anger that he felt that night, that he had been in an argument, that he rode to that scene angry. He provides a diagram of where these events took place to law enforcement. The law enforcement officer taking his statement had not been to the scene.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This was a Hobart-Lawrence scene where DCI, the Division of Criminal Investigation for the State, was on scene. The sergeant who took the statement had not been out there. They were relaying some information back and forth, but he had very little information. They had not found the knife.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Kerr provided a diagram outlining exactly where the knife would be located, and that's right where they found it. And he recalls Sabrina being stabbed in some foliage. completely consistent with the crime scene that we located. She stumbled out from the garage into the driveway, into that tree line where there's blood staining, and into the neighbor's backyard.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you hear that statement to Sergeant Holmsbrock, you'll hear parts of it. You'll hear Sergeant Holmsbrock talk about the statement, and then you will actually hear parts of it, and you will see the reenactment. And then you will see the evidence from the crime lab. You will see the pictures from the scene corroborating the information given in that statement.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It will be abundantly clear to you that Mr. Kare is the person who caused the death of his son and Sabrina T. And that he did so with intent to kill them. And again, you will hear then from the crime lab, from the DNA analyst who will confirm. You'll hear DNA evidence isn't perfect, and we talked about this in voir dire. There's blood all over this house, right?
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Raytown is a city in Jacksonville County, Missouri, with a population of 30,000. One of those 30,000 was Anne Marie Harrison, age 15 at the time this story begins. Anne was born in Kansas City, Missouri, on February 22, 1974. She was a sophomore honor student at Raytown South High School, attended church with her parents and two sisters, and played on a softball league.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
At around 7.10 a.m., the school bus driver pulled up and honked the horn, but Ann wasn't there, only the belongings she had set on the ground. Janelle Harrison, Ann's mom, checked in the house, the backyard, and with a neighbor who Ann was friends with. Ann was gone, with no sign of a struggle, and she had just been 60 feet from her front door.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
The samples were sent off to be examined, and once they returned, Nunley's hairs matched those that were found on Ann's jacket. The hairs on the floor of Nunley's mother's basement also matched samples taken from Ann. On July 28, 1989, a Jackson County grand jury indicted Roderick Nunley and Michael Taylor on first-degree murder, forcible rape, kidnapping, and armed criminal action.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Before the trial, Taylor escaped custody, and when he was apprehended by the officers, he said to them, Why didn't you let me go? You know what I'm facing. After Nunley was indicted, he agreed to a guilty plea and to go before a judge because he wanted to avoid being sentenced by a jury, even though the prosecution informed him that he could be sentenced to death.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Nunley's hearing began on January 29, 1991. He took the stand and testified that his intent was to only rob Ann of her purse. He admitted to the abduction but denied raping her. He claimed that it was only Taylor that raped Ann and that he had only pretended to in order to appease Taylor. The reason he murdered Ann was because she could identify him.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
The hearing lasted three days and Judge Alvin C. Randall sentenced Nunley to death. Ann's family was present during the hearing and it would be the first time they had heard the gruesome details of the crime. Taylor's hearing was on February 9, 1991. Just like Nunley, he opted to go before a judge and plead guilty to all charges.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
He was also warned that the judge could come back with a sentence of death. Taylor testified that he wanted to let Ann go, but he was pressured by Nunley to murder her. He described how she resisted getting into the trunk of the car and begging them to call her parents. Taylor's mother pleaded for his life, but in the end, Judge Alvin C. Randall sentenced Michael Taylor to death.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Even though Nunley and Taylor were thoroughly briefed on the fact that once they pled guilty and went before a judge, they couldn't change their minds. Despite this, in October of 1991, both Nunley and Taylor appealed their sentences, claiming that the judge was drunk and the prosecutors were racially biased.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
The defense attorneys claimed that the two men received the death penalty because Ann was white and Nunley and Taylor were black. Each appeal that was introduced was denied. Michael Taylor was executed on February 26, 2014. He had no final words. Ann's father and two of her uncles were present. On September 1, 2015, Roderick Nunley was put to death.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Ann's father and two friends were in attendance.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
After the execution, Anne's friends, many of whom are married and have children of their own now, released statements to the press and on Facebook about Anne. One described her as a shy, family-oriented girl who was nice to everyone she met and would help anyone who needed it, adding that she was an excellent student, softball player, and she loved music.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Janelle called Anne's father, Bob Harrison, who was working at the time, who in turn called the police. Before long, ground and aerial searches were launched. Michael Taylor and Roderick Nunley, friends since their teens, both had criminal backgrounds, mostly in car theft and other petty crimes. Nunley was thought to be involved in a murder, but charges were never filed.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Sometime in the early morning hours of March 22, 1989, they stole a dark blue 1984 Chevy Monte Carlo. Drinking wine coolers and smoking weed, they drove through the streets of Kansas City, stealing T-tops off of cars and trying to come up with other ways to make immediate money. While winding through the Kansas City neighborhoods, they spotted Ann waiting for the bus.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Nunley was driving and Taylor, seeing Ann's purse on the ground, told him to pull over so he could snatch it. Nunley pulled next to Ann. Taylor climbed out of the car and asked Ann for directions to an address he just made up. Leaving Anne's purse and other belongings on the ground, he grabbed her and forced her into the passenger side floor of the car. Anne did not fit the profile of a runaway.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
She was in the school band, had a boyfriend, and held a job as a bagger in a grocery store. As word got out of her disappearance, flyers were distributed, and it was breaking news on local TV and radio stations. This was a quiet and safe neighborhood and the community rallied together and created a reward fund and soon a tip line was established.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Witnesses began calling in and one tip mentioned seeing a dark Monte Carlo in the area. Nunley and Taylor drove away with Ann on the passenger side of the floor. Nunley removed his sock and it was put around her mouth to quiet her. Eventually, they ended up at Nunley's mother's house, where they pulled into the garage, which had an entrance to the basement.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Once there, Ann was blindfolded and they made her crawl on her hands and knees into that basement. Through the tip line, the police received many leads, most leading to dead ends. Through the generosity of individuals, organizations, and businesses, a reward was established of $9,000. Once inside the basement, Ann was bound with wire.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
The sock was removed and she was led into a basement where she was assaulted by Taylor. Because of her age, he was having a difficult time of it and asked Nunley to bring him some lubricant. After he was done, Nunley entered the room and attempted to assault Anne, but it is unclear whether he was able to due to him being high at the time.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Annie, as she was known by those closest to her, was a good girl.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
After they were done, they allowed Anne to put her clothes back on and they put the blindfold back on her. Taylor questioned her as to whether her family had money, and she told them that her family would pay them to get her back. All they had to do was call them.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
The two men asked her for her phone number and pretended to write it down, and of course she could not see that they weren't due to the blindfold. She must have been feeling some hope and relief that she would be able to go home to her family. They led her, crawling on her hands and knees, back to the car so that Nunley's sister, who was home at the time, wouldn't see her.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Nunley and Taylor opened the trunk and told Ann to get in, but she resisted. She told them she didn't want to get in the trunk. The men told her she had to so that she wouldn't be seen, so with their assistance, she got into the trunk. The two men discussed what they should do next. Taylor didn't want her to be able to identify them, so he told Nunley to go into the house and get a knife.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Nunley returned with a butcher knife and a smaller serrated knife. Nunley attempted to slice Anne's throat with the butcher knife, but it was too dull. So he stabbed her in the throat instead, twisting it in the process. The men took turns stabbing her in the chest and the neck. When they were done, Anne was struggling to breathe, but she was still alive.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Taylor stood there watching her suffer while Nunley returned the knives to the kitchen and disposed of the wire used to restrain her. Once Nunley got back to the car, the trunk was closed and the duo drove away.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Thank you for listening to Crimatorium, the place where crime resides. Crimatorium can also be found on YouTube.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Police were called about an abandoned vehicle.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
When officers arrived and plates were run, the owner showed up with the keys. He poured some antifreeze in the radiator, then opened the trunk to put it away. He took a step back and said, there's a body in the trunk. Officer Williams looked in the trunk and saw the body of a white, fully clothed female lying partially on her back. Her left side leaned up against the rear of the trunk.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Her left arm was extended out. Her right arm was laying across her chest. Both hands were stained with blood. A white colored button with Disneyland written on it was found underneath a denim jacket that was lying partway over Ann's arm. Ann had been wearing souvenir buttons on that jacket on the day she disappeared.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Ann's uncle, who was the captain of the Kansas City Police Department, was called to the scene to identify the body. It was Ann Marie Harrison. The vehicle was towed to the police garage with Anne's body still in place to protect any evidence. After the car was processed for fingerprints, Anne's body was taken to the medical examiner's office.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Anne had multiple stab wounds to her chest and neck area, as well as a large laceration to her throat. The car the body was located in was a blue 1984 Monte Carlo. Anne had been missing a total of 37 hours before her body was discovered. In the ensuing days of the investigation into Anne's death, the police received dozens of leads.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Several police departments in the surrounding area canvassed the neighborhoods, but came back empty-handed. Several suspects who were known for auto theft were eliminated. The investigation was extensive and the murder of Anne Harrison was big news in the area.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
On closer inspection of the Monte Carlo, they noted that the ashtray, the dome light and the radio were missing and the steering column was broken. The interior car light bulb was sitting on the rear passenger floorboard. On June 29, 1989, an anonymous call came into the tip line saying that they knew who killed Ann.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
It was 23-year-old Mike Taylor, who was at that time in the Missouri State Penitentiary for parole violation, and 24-year-old Roger Nunley, a name Roderick Nunley sometimes went by. The caller stated that Ann was murdered in Nunley's mother's basement in Grandview, Missouri, and that Nunley had slashed her throat.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
He stated that he informed the police of this crime so that he could collect the $9,000 reward. The caller said he would call back the next day, June 22nd. When he did, he identified himself as Kareem Abkar Hurley. Because Hurley knew the details of the crime that only the killer would know, the detectives convinced him to come into the station.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Hurley told detectives that when Taylor and Nunley spotted Ann, their only intent was to steal her purse. Instead, they put her in the car and drove her to Nunley's mother's house. He stated that no blood would be found in the basement because the two men killed Ann in the trunk of the car. A warrant for Nunley and Taylor's arrest was made and each would be held on a $125,000 bond.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
A warrant was also obtained to search the home of Nunley's mother, where they swept the carpet and took photographs. Taylor was locked up at this time, so locating him wouldn't be a problem. However, it was unknown where Nunley was. Officers discovered that Nunley, who worked as a housekeeper at Baptist Memorial Hospital, failed to return to work after June 21st.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Nunley's supervisor provided his contact information to the officers. They learned that Nunley was behind in his car payments and the credit company was trying to locate him and the car so they could tow it away. They would let officers know if they located Nunley. Officers visited Taylor in prison and confronted him about what Hurley had told them.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Taylor went silent, then asked if he could call his mother. Taylor told his mother that he was being questioned about a rape and a murder, and after a few minutes of speaking, he told her he loved her and hung up. Taylor then said that his mother told him that if he did this, to tell the truth.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
He then proceeded to tell the officers that he and Nunley were on a drug binge that night, and once Ann was spotted, Nunley kidnapped Ann by putting her over his shoulder and shoving her in the car. He described blindfolding her with a sock that Nunley had removed from his foot once she was in the car. When they got to the basement of the house, her hands and feet were tied with a cable wire.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
On the morning of March 22, 1989, Ann walked to the end of her driveway a little before 7 a.m., set her purse, flute, and backpack on the ground, and waited for her school bus to arrive. That morning, she was wearing her favorite jean jacket, adorned with souvenir pins, pink slacks, and matching socks.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
According to Taylor, Nunley removed Ann's clothes at some point and Ann was crying. He said Nunley tried to keep her quiet and in Taylor's words, he had intercourse with her. When Nunley asked Taylor if he wanted to do the same, Taylor claimed that he declined. On second thought, he decided to take his turn but claimed he didn't finish the act.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
After they were done with their assault, they untied Ann and allowed her to put her clothes back on. Ann told them to call her parents who would give them money. The two men gave her hope that they were going to call them by pretending to write down the phone number she gave them.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
The sock was then placed around Anne's face and she was led back to the car, crawling on her hands and knees, where they made her get into the trunk. Taylor stood over Anne and watched her as Nunley went into the house and retrieved a butcher knife and a serrated knife. He drew a picture of what the knives looked like.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Taylor claimed that Nunley grabbed Anne by the hair and tried to slit her throat with a butcher knife, but because it was dull, it didn't work. Nunley gave up on slashing her throat. He turned to stabbing her in the throat until it went all the way through. Nunley then stabbed Anne in the chest and again in the neck, then encouraged Taylor to do the same.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Taylor stated that he said, nah, that's just crazy, man. But then he thought, well, we're in this together. So he started stabbing her too. Taylor watched as Ann's eyes rolled into the back of her head and she was struggling to breathe. The trunk was closed and the two men drove off in the car with Ann still in the trunk.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
It would later be determined that Ann was conscious for about 15 minutes and stayed alive for two hours after her attack. The interview was taped and the officers collected hair and blood samples before they left.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
It wasn't long before Taylor's fellow inmates caught word of what he was accused of and they attacked and raped him so violently that he required surgery and 80 sutures to repair the damage. A second search warrant was issued for Nunley's mother's house and when officers knocked on the door, nobody answered, so they made entry by removing a window.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
Once inside, they made their way upstairs, where they discovered Nunley's sister and mother. His sister stated that Nunley couldn't have been involved because she was at home at the time and didn't hear or see anything. The officers found and removed two knives that matched the description given by Taylor. They swept the floor and photographed the entire basement.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
On July 8, 1989, officers received a tip that Nunley had been spotted near Troost Lake and were dispatched to the area where one of the officers spotted him. As the officers approached Nunley, he took off on foot between some houses in the area. After some time, the officers caught up to him and he identified himself as Roderick Nunley.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
He was transported to the police station, booked, and interrogated. The officer started off by telling him that Taylor had confessed to everything. Nunley asked for video proof of this. Nunley watched the video of Taylor not only divulging the events of that day, but putting the blame on Nunley.
Crimeatorium
Ann Marie Harrison l Kidnapped While Waiting For The Bus
This infuriated him, and he echoed the tale that Taylor had confessed to earlier, only he put the blame on Taylor. It was painful for officers to listen to the physical, mental, and psychological torture Ann went through that day at the hands of these two men. Nunley waived his rights and allowed the officers to take samples of his hair and blood.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
He finally embraced it, huh?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Nice. So let's go back to these columns.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Okay. So there was a merchant's table. It hit the max number of columns, 1,024 at the time. Apparently, was it SQL Server has got more memory now? You can now add 4,096 columns. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Good for them. But because it's arbitrary, I mean, it's not arbitrary, the memory constraint is
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
force them to either stop making new columns or create a second table in which you can just shove some more columns. That was the choice that was decided. So now there's merchants and merchants too. And I assume every time you look up a merchant, you just got to pull both tables in, don't you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Which they did thousands of times, apparently. I just wonder, how can you possibly have that much information about a single entity in the world? Obviously, there's probably a lot of foreign key relationships, which is probably a lot of those columns. But I mean, how much can you know about a single merchant? Like more than 1,024 things matter.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
That's amazing. So you would download them on your brother's machine?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And you would rip them to a disc, to a CD, which is a one-time. But yeah, you pretty much have one shot at it, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And you sneaker net that sucker over to your machine.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And then are these just tire balls or how did you, do you remember?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well, it paid off.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So no, uh, secret service knocking down the door, I think is a worthwhile diversion. Don't you think Adam? Yeah. Is you got more to the story? What's the story? I mean, were you, I mean, you, you shall it, it deep.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
The plot thickens.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
They just dismissed the charges or how did it turn out?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So that story plus Miss Johns together got you this job. Because they're like, well, you must be good at what he does. Secret services after him.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Right. Then you find this code base and you realize how many hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars in labor have gone into this monstrosity.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
You didn't introduce the calendar, did you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So just filled it in more? Just one row per day and you just got to fill it out. And it's going to check against that row for the day. And if there's no row, then they can't log in.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Wow. So it had been, it was defunct basically.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So you did implement the correct behavior.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Who knows, man.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So we're joined today by Jimmy Miller, host of the Future of Coding podcast. Jimmy, you wrote the best, worst blog post.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And then did you decompile that and throw it in source control or like, how, how did you, how did you recover from the circumstances or did you just perpetuate it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well, you're not going to get a disagreement from me on that one, but maybe.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well, the Kaizen just means continuous improvement. You know, that's something that I'm sure you're into, right? Like, let's make things better all the time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Definitely resonated with me. In fact, I was like stopping to check the technologies that you listed because I literally thought maybe I had been on the same code base. And then I was like, I was all C sharp and VB. I was like, okay, mine was over here in Ruby land. But I was just like bringing up PTSD or something, you know, because... I've been in a code base like this.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Take that hourly wage out of your bonus. It costs a little extra. There's some intangible cost there on that bonus system.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
It definitely was like, when I saw that, I thought, Adam's going to love this. There's someone named Guilfoyle?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
But the code is like a legend. This is like a legend. Yeah. Total legend.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well, first of all, let's lay some groundwork here before I start to get into the details, because this was your first job coming out of college, is that right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
You know, he can't have a trail, no paper trails.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Okay, coming out of schooling.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And successful business that you went to work for, I assume?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
I was going to say, it's convenient sometimes to have a Gilfoyle. It's like a patsy. When something's wrong, you got someone to place the blame on because he's been prolific and he's done all these things and he's not around. So surely, gosh, Gilfoyle, what's wrong with you? But no, this was a third-party system.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
It sounds fun. I mean, I would like to work on this code base for maybe like a month and then move on. But I'd like to visit.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Yeah, it is a game. I mean, it's got to feel like that to a certain degree.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
I do, but I can't remember what it does. But I remember Rhino.js. It was involved in my cappuccino days. I think they were using it back with Objective-J.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Right. Yeah. And so lots of money being made, of course, credit card processing, a core piece of the world's infrastructure. If you're getting fractions of a penny of every transaction, I mean, there's just a lot of money coming in and money hides problems, right? Like the success just hides problems. And this thing had so many problems. It's just hard to fathom that it operated.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
I've had similar experiences, all I think at smaller scales, both in terms of company size and code base. My craziest one was I inherited, I did a rescue project for a boat shop somewhere in Georgia where they just needed, like basically it's a Ruby on Rails application that ran back office for a boat shop. A lot of merchants, a lot of sales, a lot of this kind of stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So similar tables and stuff, which is why it's probably resonating with me. And they had lost the original dev team. It was like a contract team came in, built this system and left. And then the IT guys who are also third party kind of took the system over because they were just nice guys who were helping out the company.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
That was a successful boat retail shop and relied upon this application to run their business now. And this was like really early Ruby on Rails days. I think it was like version 1.2 or something. And so there's a lot missing. And this team came in and wrote a lot of very clever code. Basically implemented a meta framework on top of it. And it was insanity. It took me a very long time to unravel.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And then they left, you know. And these people were left kind of high and dry. And so I was happy to help out. And I had the challenge, the game, like all these things. There was no... development system. It was like production and I copy the code down and try to get it running on my machine, you know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So you're very much like doing crazy stuff, very small increments at a time, try not to break things. Um,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And so that experience just resonates with everything you're saying, like the metaprogramming, specifically when you're talking about the thing that generates data structures from classes, and the database kind of is the programming system as well, if you want it to be, but no one's using it, like all that stuff was there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And it took me a very long time to be able to unravel it and understand it to the point where I was like, oh, it's kind of clever once you know how it works, but... That's a terrible thing. And so I think, and I didn't write up about that at all, I think there's tons of code bases like this out there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
It's like a time travel movie, which we talked about pre-show, so not a good callback. But yeah, that's one of the problems with meta-programming is it's just too meta sometimes and you can't unravel it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
It's very easy, especially when you come into a code base to, you know, Guilfoyle the thing in the sense of how I was talking about Guilfoyle earlier, where it's like some other who was dumb or incompetent or malicious did this. But as you actually start to like work with it and talk to people and learn about it, okay, there are politics and there are power struggles and stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
There are things that happen because we're humans, but a lot of it is like, They made the best decision they had at the time with the information that they had. And I'm staring at it with completely different perspective years later. And like that stuff is fun to learn. And you actually realize like, yeah, that duct tape was really reasonable considering all the things they considered.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
I just don't know those things. And so I really do appreciate code from that perspective, especially legacy systems that are still powering businesses and bringing value to people is that we want to be smarter than everybody else, but. Those people just had different contexts lots of times that we just don't have.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And you start to learn those contexts and it gives you a new appreciation for the code that you're looking at. And that's cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
There's something about the naivety also of being fresh out of school or young to the industry. I think I told this story before, which I had a similar experience where I inherited some bad code, but I didn't have that perspective and just knowledge enough to realize it was bad code. I thought it was good code and I was a bad programmer. And I probably, I mean, I was.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Is Munch still there?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
But still, I gave it too much credit because I think this must be what good code looks like. It's so hard to understand, you know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And it took me a couple of years of just maintaining that. And thankfully, I had autonomy. So I just did it by myself, like slowly changing a thing here or there without major interruption from bosses or anything. Then I realized what good code actually looks like and that what I had inherited was actually just clever but terrible. And oftentimes clever is terrible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Wow. That one hits hard, doesn't it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And there's some clever stuff in this code base you're talking about.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Things that you're like, oh, that's kind of clever, but it's also so dumb.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well said, Jimmy. Well said. Anything else? Any stone that we've left unturned? I'm sure there'd be dragons elsewhere, but anything you'd like to highlight before we call it a show?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Fair. Well, great best worst blog post. I love that you wrote that up. I think there's a reason it was popular. I think because it's a shared experience, well documented. And it's fun to laugh at these things. We laugh so we won't cry. Or maybe we laugh at you and not with you because I didn't have that particular problem.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
But I appreciate you coming on the show and talking to us about it and for giving us some big picture ideas and hope for the future of coding and also for the current state of coding and code itself and a love for it that I share at least, even when I despise it sometimes. I still love it. And I think that that's just the way it is sometimes. Adam? I agree. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Yeah, absolutely. I think we can drill in on specific aspects and just enjoy them as we do, but you can definitely paint with broad strokes in terms of, I already said it's a big visual basic C-sharp thing. The database was massive. It had lots of columns.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
You go ahead and fill out some of the big picture aspects of what this thing was, and then we can dive into some of the details because there's a lot of just enjoyable tomfoolery going on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Was his name actually Munch? I mean, who names their kid Munch?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
That is hilarious. Some names just find you, you know, you just can't, you can't escape them. They just stick.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You know, I've had the pleasure of meeting several people behind the scenes at Speakeasy, and I'm very impressed with what they're doing to help teams to create idiomatic SDKs, enterprise-grade SDKs in nine languages, and it's just awesome. So, Sagar, walk me through the process of how Speakeasy helps teams to create enterprise-grade idiomatic SDKs at scale.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
It is open source though, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
There's a margin of haters, let's just say, towards Kafka. And it is open source. And I'm just curious, you know, you may be in that bucket of margin of haters because you've created WarpStream, right? So you're kind of not for, you're kind of against, at least from an economic standpoint and maybe a DX standpoint and many other standpoints. The point I'm getting to is why not just improve Kafka?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Good answer. I was expecting a version of that. I was not suggesting that you should just not start WarpStream and by all means just go contribute to Kafka and bail. But it's always good to get that perspective because Kafka's got history. It's 13-ish years old. It was developed inside of LinkedIn for different purposes. That's why I started off with the question, which was...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Their own infrastructure because LinkedIn designed this for a different purpose than everybody else today uses it. It's not it was not designed to be used in a cloud environment where there's a lot of egress fees and a lot of fees between moving data around. And so it was not really designed for its actual use case or the usage space that it's in.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And LinkedIn did not charge its users those transaction fees. I assume potentially because, and I don't know LinkedIn's infrastructure history, but I assume because they had far more control over their cloud or their own environment to not have to deal with those costs than maybe everyone else who's become a Kafka user has had to take on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So you and Richard, did you guys meet at Datadog? Is that where you guys connected or was he at Datadog? Tell us a little bit of the history of you two.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Gotcha. Yeah. And while you were there, you had put some sort of Datadog infrastructure on S3 or on object storage. Husky, I think. I'm going from memory now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah, I mean, that's why I ask about it, because it seems like it's a precursor to this very similar move with Kafka, right? Like, what if we took Kafka, ripped out the local storage aspect of it? Sounds easy enough. And built something, I mean, by ripped out, conceptually ripping out, right? You didn't fork Kafka and write this, right? You started over.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Right, so conceptually, rip it out, but actually rewrite something that's Kafka compatible in terms of features and API, I assume, and all that kind of stuff. But no local storage, object storage.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And your success with what happened to Datadog probably led the way for you to say, well, if we did that, it would be a lot cheaper, basically, and way easier to operate because, hello, Amazon Web Services, right? Like, it's their problem now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Okay, friends, here are the top 10 launches from Supabase's launch week number 12. Read all the details about this launch at supabase.com slash launch week. Okay, here we go. Number 10, Snaplet is now open source. The company Snaplet is shutting down, but their source code is open.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
They're releasing three tools under the MIT license for copying data, seeding databases, and taking database snapshots. Number nine, you can use PG Replicate to copy data, full table copies, and CDC from Postgres to any other data system. Today it supports BigQuery, DuckDB, and MotherDuck with more syncs to be added in the future.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Number eight, Vect2PG, a new CLI utility for migrating data for vector databases to SuperBase or any Postgres instance with PG Vector. You can use it today with Pinecone and QDrant. More will be added in the future. Number seven, the official Subbase extension for VS Code and GitHub Copilot is here. And it's here to make your development with Subbase and VS Code even more delightful.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Number six, official Python support is here. As Supabase has grown, the AI and ML community have just blown up Supabase, and many of these folks are Pythonistas. So Python support expands. Number five, they released log drains so you can export logs generated by your Supabase products to external destinations like Datadog or custom endpoints.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Number four, authorization for real-time broadcast and presence is now public beta. You can now convert a real-time channel into an authorized channel using RLS policies in two steps. Number three, bring your own Auth0, Cognito, or Firebase.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
This is actually a few different announcements, support for third-party auth providers, phone-based multi-factor authentication, that's SMS and WhatsApp, and new auth hooks for SMS and email. Number two, build Postgres wrappers with Wasm. They released support for Wasm, WebAssembly, Foreign Data Wrapper. With this feature, anyone can create an FDW and share it with the Supabase community.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You can build Postgres interfaces to anything on the internet. And number one, Postgres.new. Yes, Postgres.new is an in-browser Postgres with an AI interface. With Postgres.new, you can instantly spin up an unlimited number of Postgres databases that run directly in your browser and soon deploy them to S3. Okay, one more thing. There is now an entire book written about Supabase.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
David Lorenz spent a year working on this book, and it's awesome. Level up your Supabase skills and support David and purchase the book. Links are in the show notes. That's it. Superbase launch week number 12 was massive. So much to cover. I hope you enjoyed it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Go to superbase.com slash launch week to get all the details on this launch or go to superbase.com slash changelogpod for one month of Superbase Pro for free. That's S-U-P-A-B-A-S-E dot com slash changelogpod. What are some lesser known things about object stores that you know that we don't know? Or maybe nobody knows besides you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
For us laymen, can you describe how the brokers work and contrast that again with these stateless agents? I understand that you can scale the agents horizontally because they are stateless versus a broker, which seems to have kind of a lock on some data. But what do Kafka brokers do exactly?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So you're reading metadata versus reading the real data, basically. And that's what makes it faster.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What's up, friends? Welcome back. This is The Change Law. We feature the hackers, the leaders, and those who are building data streaming platforms inspired by Kafka. Yes, today's conversation revolves around Kafka and data streaming. We're joined by Ryan Worrell, co-founder and CTO at WarpStream. Last year, they posted a blog titled Kafka is Dead, Long Live Kafka.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What percentage of the Kafka population does that cut out? Because it seems like many of them are highly real-time oriented.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Those reads and writes, can you restate those? Did you say writes are at most in P99 500 milliseconds and reads are one to two seconds in P99? Is that correct?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
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The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So latency aside, what are the other downsides of this approach?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Does it have any of the hosting flexibility? I suppose you're putting everything in object storage anyway, so there's probably people running their own object storage clusters, but that might be crazy. I don't know.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What about R2? Would you have even more savings, or would that not matter because nothing's going outbound from the virtual network there?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I was thinking about getting started, really, or just trying it out. I do like your curl demo. I did play with it. I had no idea what I was doing. But it was cool. The command is on your homepage. It's curl and a URL to an install script. I did not review that script prior to running it. I just trusted you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You're admitting that to everybody?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Well, you know, it was a VM on Proxmox, so I didn't care that I could just throw away. It wasn't my own machine. I was safe. That's a good layer. It did spin up, and then it gives you a URL you can go to to log in. And next thing you know, you're looking at a cluster. So I like that aspect about it. Whose idea was it to come up with that demo? I mean, it's very hacker. It's very developer.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
No pain whatsoever. If you've got a VM or you want to spin up a VM or you have Proxmox, then you can do it safely like I've done. Or you can spin up a droplet on DigitalOcean or pick your own if you've got a VPC, whatever. You could do it in a more safe manner and have some fun. What do you expect people to do with that? What are people saying about that? And whose idea was it to produce that demo?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
This is very hacker. I like it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
It said it had a problem and I had to click it, so yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So to get to the Playground version of it, is it like dash dash Playground? How do I get there?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah, I dig it. I kind of wish there was more documentation. If there is, then I would go find it or maybe a video or something like that because that's kind of cool. I like this demo because for those who just want to tinker without having to spin it up in the EC2 or just whatever, you know, go the extra mile.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I love that you can just sort of do this on your own, but I had no idea the playground version was there or the agent version was there to go a little further. And there's some room that you can make some content around that to give people more of a guidance. And you should do that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
All right, today we are joined by Ryan Worrell from WarpStream. Ryan, welcome to The Change Log.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And I guess while I'm on your homepage perusing, just under this demo that is so cool, there is a mention of plug and play. Part of your angst, I suppose, to get to where you're at was let's rethink what this might look like in a modern time, which is what you've done. But then also to be just swap out. So one thing it says is there's no need to rewrite your application to use a proprietary SDK.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You just literally change a URL. How did you get there in terms of the, it's fine to not want to contribute to Kafka and make your own way. And I'm totally cool with that. and WarpStream reinventing or rethinking this model.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But how do you get to this point where you're like, let's make this as frictionless as possible to focus on the DX of what it might actually be like to say, okay, well, if this is, like Jared said earlier, that subset of folks that maybe they're not doing credit card transactions and fraud detection where that needs to be literally real-time, where the latency cannot be absorbed.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Great to have you. Shout out to listener Vladimir for requesting this episode. Also, shout out to your co-founder, Richard, who unfortunately couldn't be here today, but hey, Richard. What's up, Richard? Yeah, but you're here, so let's talk to you and not to Vladimir and to Richard. That being said, Vladimir requested this episode. You too, listener, can request episodes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
In a scenario where it can be absorbed and it's a large transaction, population of Kafka users to say, listen, we're here and this is how easy it is to swap. How did you get to that design, that idea?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And do you think that, I know you're sort of youngish, but do you think that, I suppose, how are you winning? Are you winning the market? That's what I'm trying to get to is like, are you truly absorbing a lot of the Kafka user base? Is there a major demand for WarpStream? What's the state of product market fit and are you winning?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Head to changelog.fm slash request. Let us know what you would like to hear about on the pod, and we might just fulfill your every desire. Vlad wanted to hear about WarpStream, and so that's why Ryan is here. Just so happens that Adam and I both would also like to hear about WarpStream.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What about Greenfield? Is there anybody that's like, okay, we need to adopt Kafka or something like it, but what is out there before we go and write a lot of code or flesh out our infrastructure model or make any plans? What about those that are not migrating? What's the path, I suppose? What's the inbound of those folks? And what's the path to the DX?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Because one of the things you mentioned is that you solve a few problems. You solve cloud economics. You solve operational overhead. And one thing that you mentioned, at least in the article that was from last year, was a major problem with Kafka, which was developer user experience. And that's what I'm trying to get to there. Those were coming on green, brand new.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What is that user experience like? And what is the path like for them?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So I guess the obvious question to me at this point is Kafka is not dead. It is alive. It is open source. To my knowledge, I don't think it is. WarpStream is not open source. Was there a conversation about licensing? Was there a conversation about being a commercial open source company?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Just to follow in the footsteps of the predecessors that you at least from a conceptual standpoint copied and improved upon, right? You were led by here. You stood on the shoulder of giants. Where are you at with that? What have you thought about in terms of licensing and open source and what's your stance on open source as your core or not?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Here we are. Let's start with Kafka, though, because it sounds like WarpStream's story starts with Kafka's story. Okay. What is Kafka besides a author from the early 1900s? But the open source thing, what is that thing all about?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What's interesting about those re-licenses is that they all were commercially successful companies, even at the time of the re-license. They had arrived, and at a certain size and scale, it seems that the growth curve has to continue to go vertical to satisfy investors, to satisfy public demand in the case of Hashi.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But I'm sure, I actually don't know the state of Redis Labs or the commercial success or not of Redis, but many of them were large, successful commercial companies, bigger than most companies ever get before they actually went ahead and did that not cool rug pull.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Thank you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But I wonder if the pressures on them, because it's other people's money, similar in your situation, like you have a vent VC behind you. And I'm just curious about that decision from your guys' perspective. Because you're a small team, probably well-funded in terms of you guys are highly successful software people, so you're probably making good money.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Why not bootstrap and then not have any of that VC pressure that you currently have?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
That makes sense to some degree. I don't fully agree with all of your sentiment, although that's a very deep and lengthy conversation teetering on just not fitting this conversation necessarily.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But what I can appreciate, given that I don't fully agree with all of your reasons, the one reason I think that you've done well or I suppose the most positive thing is you've made it easy to get in and get out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So if for some reason warp stream is of great benefit, and let's just say a year down the road somebody does warp not stream, and it's commercially open source, and they eat your lunch because they decided to be open source first, and they can get into that just as easily as they can get out of you, then that's a whole different story. I'm not suggesting that's going to happen, but it's...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Possible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
The exact implementation. They can literally copy everything you do and just – the world would be okay with that because they made it open source. That's a version or at least a subset of a conversation we had at length on this podcast a few weeks back with JJ, Joseph Jaxx. He was like, yeah, I'm totally cool with –
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Somebody, a founder going out there and literally copying X and saying this is now X as open source. He was totally cool with that. I'm not saying that makes sense completely to me too, but the world now believes that's an okay thing. And it's an okay thing because at the core it is meant to be an open source commons good.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I would be like, come on, man, don't do that. Well, someone's going to do it. I mean, as you guys have success now, whether or not they can actually pull it off is the question, right? But like there will be at some point as Washington continues to grow, uh, a Hacker News number one story. X is like WarpStream, only it's open source and self-hosted. And it'll get 500 to 1,000.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And maybe it gets adoption, maybe it doesn't. Maybe by then you guys are so far ahead it doesn't matter. There's tons of what-ifs, but it will happen from somewhere in the world if you're successful.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And that, of course, hit the top of hacker news and put WarpStream on the map. Today, we get the backstory on why Kafka is so widely used and who created it and for what purpose, and more importantly, the story of WarpStream.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Hey friends, I'm here with Brandon Fu, co-founder and CEO of Paragon. Paragon lets B2B SaaS companies ship native integrations to production in days with more than 130 pre-built connectors or configure own custom integrations. So Brandon, talk to me about the friction developers feel with integrations, SSO, dealing with rate limits, retries, auth, all the things. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Okay. Paragon is built for product management. It's built for engineering. It's built for everybody. Ship hundreds of native integrations into your SaaS application in days. Or build your own custom connector with any API. Learn more at useparagon.com slash changelog. Again, useparagon.com slash changelog. That's U-S-E-P-A-R-A-G-O-N dot com slash changelog.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And I'm also here with Dennis Pilarinos, founder and CEO of Unblocked. Check them out at getunblocked.com. It's for all the hows, whys, and WTFs. Unblocked helps developers to find the answers they need to get their jobs done. So Dennis, you know we speak to developers. Who is Unblocked best for? Who needs to use it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
The next step to get unblocked for you and your team is to go to getunblocked.com. Yourself, your team can now find the answers they need to get their jobs done and not have to bother anyone else on the team, take a meeting, or waste any time whatsoever. Again, getunblocked.com. That's G-E-T-U-N-B-L-O-C-K-E-D.com. And get unblocked.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Okay, so what are some use cases for this? Lots of, it sounds like, well-funded companies use it, larger companies. Yeah. And I think that some of that is because of the operational complexities and the love-hate relationship with it. But why are people grabbing this particular tool often?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So let's go back to bootstrapping then. It seems like the kind of thing you could bootstrap. I mean, it's just you and Richie coding it up on nights and weekends, you know, get it rocking and rolling, keep all that equity. No, no one to answer to. You're going to get customers pretty quick. Then you can start hiring based off of your customer. Like why that decision to raise?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
That makes a lot of sense.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Had you played this game before?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I think your reasons are sound. I don't disagree, and I will not argue. Good answer. I'll give it to you. I will not argue. I think, you know, we check wisdom. While we love open source, I don't think that you would have had – I can see how going the route of venture capital and not going, as you had said, some of the burden of open source in terms of distraction was your actual word –
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I can understand that. And that's your prerogative, right? Bobby Brown is dated in terms of an artist.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Nobody knows Bobby Brown anymore.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But it's my prerogative is still a true phrase. Ryan, do you know Bobby Brown?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I grew up on Bobby Brown, so I can't help but bring it up. It's my prerogative. Yeah, it's my prerogative. Yeah, great song. You know, so it's your prerogative and it's Richie slash Richard's great name, by the way, Silicon Valley. I mean, I had to bring it. He was called Richie and his name was Richard Hendricks, but he was called Richie by his attorney.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I don't disagree with the reasoning for your direction. I hope it works out for you. I think it, it seems like it's going to, but I do agree with what Jared said, which was, there is probably going to be, if you hit critical mass and enough scale, somebody who copies what you've done and simply just says, okay, literally copy. And now it's open source and they'll be okay with that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I don't think that you should operate in a state of fear of that and make choices because of it, because that's free market, man, that's going to happen, you know, but, uh, Good on you for being able to answer these hard questions. I think you did well on that front. I don't have any argument, really. That's all I'll say.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I also think that you are a particularly easy target for the hyperscalers to reclone and host and offer because of the nature of what you're doing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Ride your coattails. Are there other competitors out there? Are there other people that are putting Kafka on object storage?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah, better way. Well, that does make sense then why you went venture capital so that you can go fast. And I think that from a visual standpoint and you've done well from a brand standpoint, I think your marketing site is pretty awesome. I mean, there's obviously always room for improvement, but it's pretty solid.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I do want to bring up the idea of pricing because I don't disagree there either that There's large corporations, enterprises, so to speak, Fortune 500s, that if you're not charging them $10,000, $20,000 a year, they're like, what's wrong with you? We can't use you. We literally need to give you a lot of money to trust you. And that's just the nature of the beast there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But when you land on your page for pricing out the gate, the TCO, total cost of ownership, is at least the default numbers that are put there, is $2,295 per month. So you're not even scaring people away. I mean, like you're literally putting your fist in their face and saying like, it costs a lot, y'all. But that's the cheap version.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
These people are probably used to paying more than that, right, Ryan?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So if you needed five gigabit write throughput, which I imagine is quite high, but let's say that you do 14 day retention. So that's two weeks retention. Not that much. We're talking 97 grand per month going to WarpStream and $1.76 million a month using Kafka. These are numbers that blow my little mind.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
It was the highest. It was five gigabits.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And the question they asked themselves was this, what would Kafka look like if it was redesigned from the ground up today to run in modern cloud environments directly on top of object storage with no local disks to manage, but still had to support the existing Kafka protocol? Well, that's just the premise for today's conversation. A massive thank you to our friends and partners over at Fly.io.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Still 10X. Still looking pretty good. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I want to point out that these are just dollars, too. This is not developer friction or operational burden or enhanced developer experience, which are the hallmark of any conversation today with dev tools, right? Like, you could be a 13-year-old tool like Kafka and get away with... And I have no idea. So no skin in the game. I've never used Kafka personally.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So if there's some haters out there, those marginal haters I mentioned earlier, don't hate on me. But there may be some warts and blemishes and burdens within the Kafka ecosystem that just makes it just challenging to operate, to stand up. Obviously, there's costs. We've already talked about that literally at length.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But I think there's something to be said about a modern take given today's cloud infrastructure with some of the dev user experience attributes I've seen you already put in place. So cost is one thing, but then happy developers is retained developers, morale boosts, maybe freedom on weekends, less pager duty, less whatever from anybody who might be competing with pager duty. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
That's a good thing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I see on the cake. What's a good next step? I mean, I feel like we've really just gone through all of it, Jared. You got anything else? I think we have. We've covered it all, man. I think we've covered every ounce of Warpstream. Ryan, thank you for being patient with our questions and going through everything and filling in all the blanks, too. I think you did a great job with this conversation.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I'm happy. I'm impressed. I think there's a lot of things I can see as quality in you as a person and also the thing that you're trying to do. I think you guys have led with some wisdom. I like a lot that you went out and talked to folks. rather than just shooting from the hip, so to speak, with your choices and letting it be opinion-based.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You seem to have leaned into the wisdom of those who've come before you with your particular target market, which I think is key to your choices. And so I'm stoked that you were able to answer the questions we asked. So thank you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Very cool. Well, warpstream.com is where you can go. We'll obviously put links in the show notes. Ryan, thank you. It's been awesome. Thanks, man. Thanks. Okay, so WarpStream seems to be what Kafka would look like if it was redesigned from the ground up to run in modern cloud environments. They didn't opt into open source, and I think Ryan had a pretty solid argument for why not.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But time will tell if an open source copycat comes along to sniff out their lunch and eat it. Until then, good for them for putting in the work to gain the conviction they have for their choices. and their position. Later this week, our game show Pound to Find is back on changelogging friends, and it was epic.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
This is the closest I've come to winning, and I was still pretty far off, and that's this Friday. Okay, big thanks to our sponsors this week. Speakeasy, love them. Newdomainspeakeasy.com. Also our friends over at Superbase celebrating launch week number 12. Superbase.com. And our friends over at Paragon, all the B2B SaaS integrations you want in a single platform, useparagon.com.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And also our friends over at Unblocked for all those whys, hows, and WTFs. Check them out, getunblocked.com. And of course, to our partners over at fly.io. That is the home of changelog.com. Check them out, fly.io. And to the Beatmaster in residence, Breakmaster Cylinder, bringing those beats. Okay, that's it. This show's done. We'll see you on Friday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So Vladimir pointed us to a post which I think Adam and I, we had both already read this post because it was last year. Last summer, I believe. Kafka is dead. Long live Kafka. This was your big coming out party, it seems. A great way to introduce WarpStream. And in that post... You said that Kafka is one of the most polarizing technologies in the data space.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And then whether it was you or Richard who wrote that, then you just moved on and kept going, assuming that we all just knew why or how or like agreed that that was just true. I assume it's true. It's probably polarizing, but why is it polarizing? My guess is because it's useful, but difficult to use. And so people love it and hate it, but maybe there's more to it than that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Is anyone building or using Kafka, open source Kafka, as you said, in a scenario where they're not on public cloud, where they're building out their own infrastructure, where it's probably maybe even more harder because you're literally managing the disks. You're not ordering the disks or SRAing the disks. You're literally managing the disks. Is that a scenario that happens or is it less likely?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
More than 3 million apps have launched on Fly, and we're one of them. Scalable full stack without the cortisol. No stress. Learn more at Fly.io. Okay, let's Kafka. What's up, friends? I'm here with a new friend of mine, Sagar Bachu, co-founder and CEO at Speakeasy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Continue with the polarizing. What else is polarizing about Kafka?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What makes it so difficult to run? Is it the SSDs? I think that post also called it finicky. Is it poorly architected? Like, why is it finicky?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I do.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's a feature, though, not a bug. It is a feature, yeah. I've designed my life around it. I mean, we are homebodies. We are homeschoolers. I work from home. I have one laptop. I take it with me when I go somewhere. I got nothing to connect to back home. I mean, the Mac Mini has some old movies on it, but I'm not going to watch those. If I'm on the road, I'm going to watch whatever's on Netflix.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So young Jared would be all about Tailscale, but old Jared, I'm just like, I'm not a self-hoster. I still think it's cool tech. I remember the bad old days of Hamachi VPN, I think it was called, which was, I think, open source, but it was definitely free. is my closest analog to Tailscale, before Tailscale.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And it was cool because you could do a lot of the same stuff, but, and it was, it's pre-WireGuard even. I'm not sure how it worked. I know it was a VPN, but, you know, we had NASs in different people's houses, right? And we were syncing, we were like sharing backups with each other. Like I back up your stuff, you back up mine. I did all that stuff the hard way, you know, probably 15 years ago.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
No, I just have different interests. I like to talk about the stuff, I like to hear what people are up to, but I just don't have that hacker mindset with that kind of stuff, I just don't.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, I 100% understand that. And I understand it would be cool to have a Plex library with all the movies and all that kind of stuff that I own. But my choice when Disney does that, I just cancel Disney+. I'm like, peace out, guys. I don't need you. I'll live the simpler life.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And then I tell them, Bluey's no longer with us. Yeah. Bluey's no longer with us. So yeah, I mean, that's another trade-off, right? It's like, okay, now I've got to deal with that situation. Yeah. You can't do that to all your... to everything in your life, so you make choices.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Welcome to ChangeLog and Friends, a weekly talk show about ATO hallway vibes. Thanks to our partners at Fly.io, the home of ChangeLog.com. Launch your app in five minutes or less. Learn how at Fly.io. Okay, let's talk.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Is it a lifestyle that is worth living?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Is it sustainably so?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
No Googtober. Yeah. No Googtober?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I'm just now realizing that I've been without Google for a long time, but I've just been suffering with DuckDuckGo. And it's like, I should just replace that with Perplexity, and I won't be suffering it. I've just lived without. And I've learned how to use DuckDuckGo to the best of its abilities.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So non-self-hosted, what's their model? What's their business?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's time to take it back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Take it all back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
There you go. Good reference. I was trying to go for a Goonies reference, but it was probably too deep of a cut. Do it. I want to hear it. He's like, those dreams up there, those are other people's dreams. Down here, these are our dreams. And I'm taking them back. I'm taking them all back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Next up, we are joined by Isra Taha, a senior software engineer with over 12 years of experience. Isra is as legit as they come, yet she still struggles with self-confidence. Sound familiar? We kind of hounded her to get her on the mic. I even felt bad for a minute, but it all worked out in the end because she decided to do it and we had a great conversation. Here it is.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yes. Here we go.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Depends on how loud you're going to be. You're golden. You're golden.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So we asked you to come on the show yesterday morning.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Now it's today afternoon, but you made it. I did.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You're stepping outside your comfort zone.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Do you find that hard to do?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We kind of pushed you into this one, didn't we?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We gave her a nudge. We didn't require it of her. Constant, gentle pressure. We just wanted her to come on the show, so we're happy to have you. First time at All Things Open.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Impressions?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Lots of booths, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We're hallway trackers ourselves, aren't we, Adam? That's right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's where all the fun is. That's where we belong, you know? It is. That's where the people are.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We are taking you back to the all things open hallway track one more time to talk with some friends, new and old. First up, Alex Kretschmar, who you may remember from earlier this year when he was on the episode called Self-Hosted Media Server Goodness.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Coming to a... Hallway near you. Yeah. Don't go in there. There's no talks. The nice thing about that is you don't really even need a place to gather. You just need a hallway.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We don't need an auditorium. Would you have vendors and stuff, too? Would it be like this? Everything would be in the hallway.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, you would need a pretty big hallway.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What would be cool would be to put it in, like, an arena, but just in the hallway of the arena, the circular. Yeah. And so you would just walk in circles. You call it circles.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Well, that's not how they're designed. Oh, you want to cut through the middle.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Cool shade. This is what we do. Welcome to the podcast.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Or like an unconf, you know, like base camp style. Base camp? Bar camp. Food camp. No, not Food Camp. Bar Camp. Bar Camp. Bar Camp was a response to Food Camp. Do you know Food Camp?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay. So Food Camp stood for Friends of O'Reilly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And that's Tim O'Reilly. Tim O'Reilly. The creator of the O'Reilly Empire. Yeah. Media empire. And he had a event that was, I think, on his property or somewhere near where he lives. It was very exclusive. Invite only. You had to be a friend of O'Reilly to go.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And it was a camp. Foo camp. I think they camped out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That part might be... gray area, but the rest is true at least. And cool for everybody who gets invited, but not cool for anybody who doesn't get invited, right? So bar camp was a response to foo camp because foo bar, right? And so bar camp became a unconference where anybody can come. You don't have to be a friend of O'Reilly. You can be anybody.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And because it was an unconference, there was no preplanned schedule.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So you show up on a Saturday morning, for instance, right? Everybody gets together and there's whiteboards or even just construction paper. And there's a schedule like here's slots. And you just show up a lot like lightning talks. You just show up and like sign up for a slot. And then you just have your... You're putting together the conference as it's going.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Open Spaces. So we went to that conference in Austin in January. Were you at that one?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We wanted to go to Wisconsin. We didn't quite make it. But you did a Spaces. What was that called? Birds of a Feather? Was it called Spaces? I don't know. There was tables.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yes, and I've heard you many times.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And you would sign up. The tables were lettered or numbered. And you would sign up what we're going to be talking about at this table. And Adam, you did Home Lab or something?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah. Happy to meet you. Yeah. Mutual fans.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You think that's how you got such big numbers, like more than four?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I guess you got to do what you got to do.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So that's cool. I like the idea of, I like improvisation. I like spontaneous things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And so I really have, I've gone to a lot of bar camps over the years.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It used to be a bar camp Omaha every year for a long time. And they were just fun because you never know what you're going to get.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Adam is showing her a picture.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Of what he put on the, that conference. Right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Let me see it. I'll describe it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It says, all caps in blue across the top, Homelab, exclamation mark. That's it. Oh, no. I thought those were names. I thought people signed up. It also says now in kind of a cloudy, kind of a mixed-matched unified. Proxmox. Oh, yeah. It's a tag cloud. VLANs. Ultimate. Ultimate? Ubuntu. Ubuntu. Texas. Docker. Oh, no, TrueNAS. Texas. Can you read? Your handwriting leaves a lot to be desired.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Wi-Fi 6. Pi hold. Now, did you talk about all these? Yes. So that's not even false advertising. Now, the other one says PODCAST in all caps, and then EEN in lower caps, because I think you probably forgot to put that in there. Exclamation mark. Mics. Software. Sales. Editing. Questions. Community. Clips. Gear. That's good. That's good advertising.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You wanted a show.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You might show up and find out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I think it stands for fidelity, but that could be wrong. But yeah, wireless networks, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And 6 is just better than 5, you know? Yeah. It's the next version. Better than 4, too. It's here, though, right? Wi-Fi 6. Wi-Fi 6. It's here. Many devices are Wi-Fi 6 enabled, but not all of them.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's a wider pipe but not a faster pipe. Cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
If you were to command a space and advertise it, did you do that at that conference? Did you start one?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay. I'm not a hater. We have shipit.show. We do. But that's because we could not get shipit.fm.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's cool. So if you're going to start a space, though, you're going to step outside your comfort zone. And next year at that conference, I'm going to run a space.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
How do you keep up in the React Native world?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Brand new architecture, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What else, man? Anything else?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, that's probably expensive. Yeah. That's a nice domain.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Awesome.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Now you're a podcaster.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Damn. You did it. I did.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We all did it. It's done.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's fun. You just talk to each other.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Our final two conversations are with a husband and wife pair, but we speak to each of them separately because they had their son and daughter with them at the event, which is awesome, but means they had to take turns on kid duty. First up, Avindra Fernando, an independent software consultant. After Avi, we speak with his wife, Aditi Ravachandran. Aditi is an independent software consultant.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Is there an echo in here? No. Is there a power couple in here? I think so. Well, we're here with Avi Fernando? Fernando. Fernando. We're here with, I was about to call you Abby. I just changed the A sound. Abby. I'm Abby now, y'all. Avi Fernando. That's right. From Kansas. Kansas City. Kansas City. Born and raised? Not born and raised. Born in Sri Lanka. Okay, Sri Lanka.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
How did you get to Kansas? How did I get to Kansas?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Rock Chalk Jayhawk. Oh, Rock Chalk. Yeah, absolutely. Sorry, we speak a different language here in the Midwest.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I said Rock Chalk Jayhawk. Rock Chalk Jayhawk, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's their saying. Rock Chalk Jayhawk. That's our chant. Yeah. The KU Jayhawks. Jock's the motto. They're the Jayhawks. The mascot. Rock, Jock, Jayhawk. Rock, Chock, Jayhawk. Rock, Chock, Jayhawk. That's right. Yes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I did not go to KU. All right. But I've been there many a times, and I know the chance because I live nearby. All right, so you're 19, moved from Sri Lanka to Kansas, of all places. That's right. Yeah. And then you never go back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Got married, started a family, started a business.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Probably skipping over a lot of life there, but.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
In lockstep.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's good stuff. Yeah. And you are a React guy?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What's your list of specialties? Why'd you list our specialties for you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And you are running your own business?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Gotcha. So you were kind of a weekend warrior at that point.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You had a job.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I was wondering because for a lot of people going into their own business, especially a services business like a consultancy, the question is how do I get that flywheel going? Do I just quit my job and take the leap or do I weekend warrior it for a while? So did you have a plan from the start or was it just kind of like opportunistic? Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
The best time is now. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And so you've been doing that for three years?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What's the hardest part?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I still haven't had to. The larger the org, the less they care.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Meantime to payment. Here's a pro tip on your terms. Take that net 30 and turn it into due upon receipt. Yep. Because if they're big enough, they're not going to care anyways. They're going to pay you when they want to. And if they're small, they'll take that net 30 very seriously, and they'll pay on the 30th day.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So if you just change that to due upon receipt, and if they're serious, they'll just pay you as fast as they can. But the other ones will ignore you anyways, so they're not going to pay attention to your net 30. It won't really matter that much, but you might as well try to get paid as fast as possible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
But yeah, the larger ones, it's like you're a vendor in a system.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
The nice thing is, though, on the larger ones, is once you get that deal set up, and you're in the system, and you're on those terms... they will actually pay you reliably. Whereas the smaller customers, they might run out of money in the meantime or something and just not have the money to pay you. I certainly hit that as well with my time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So when I first started, I thought to myself, if I want to work 40 hours a week and I can bill X dollars per hour, I think it was like 75 when I started, and I can get that 80% of the time, then I'll make this much money. Does that dog hunt? And you look at that number and you're like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I can live off of that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What I didn't realize is that working 40 hours a week, if that's what you want to do, which is what I wanted to do, and billing anywhere close to 40 hours a week, those two things don't happen, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's a dream.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So what percentage of your working hours are you billing? Is it 50%, 80%? Because you're a solo consultant, right? So you don't have any help on anything, maybe some software doing some stuff?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
But like everything that has to happen in your business, you're doing it or software is doing it. How much of your time are you billing on a weekly percentage wise? Don't need hours.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And you have a large customer, which helps.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
But you got an 80-20 rule on your customers. Like currently you have an 80% customer. Yeah. And everything else. Yes. Yes. So that helps you get to that 80% billable.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
If you had... three smaller customers at the same time and no larger one, you'd spend more of your time trying to fill that pipeline.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And if that 80 turns into zero, now you're like flip-flopped. So there's risks on either side.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
There's no perfect way to set it up.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
and i have a bunch of them so the way i look at it is i got six kids and i look at it like every year i lose six years yeah you know because all six of them get one year older that's right so that's six years they've actually gained on a single year and so how precious is each one of those oh absolutely you know yeah once they're all adults those years won't matter quite as much but right now they're not coming back i'm about to start crying man yeah
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Look at the three of us here. It's hitting me hard. Although, Avi's got us beat because his kids are literally with him. Yes. Last year, I had a son with me and the year before, but... Yeah, I considered bringing my son, and I really wanted to bring him.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
How old is he?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
He's a little young. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
He was like... He's flexing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You're cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's true. They're still in lockstep. Yeah. Look at that. After all these years. So you're doing the consultancy. What does she do then?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
All right, so you're both kind of doing everything the same. Now, is one of you better than the other?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, exactly. You might as well minimize your costs.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yes, because I listened to your guys' episode.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So we need to decide right now before she gets here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And if she does.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Power couple.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Did you know that before that? I didn't know that before that. It was proof you were listening then.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Or very smart. I think it's pretty smart.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
A little bit of both. There's a fine line between a crazy person and a wise person, isn't there? Any twins in there? Nope. Okay. All organic. I'm a power dad.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's right. Well, thanks for chatting with us, Avi. It was fun. Oh, absolutely, yeah. Well, thanks for having me. It was a blast. It was the best.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
These are people that have been on the show. Those are not you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Well, we're not doing video here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So this will be audio only, but... What did you have for breakfast?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We're just sound checking, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Mm-hmm. And coffee?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Lots of coffee?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I had two eggs, over easy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
No toast. No toast. I had some hash browns. Light fruit. And one strawberry. And one slice of orange.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
The breakfast of champions. I remember it like it was just this morning.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, I know how that goes too.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
For sure. My mom used to do that constantly. We call her like the garbage disposal because she would not let anything get thrown away. And whatever was left over, she's like, just give it to me. She was never happy about it. She's like, I'll eat that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I'm going to eat it now. We're not throwing anything away, which I appreciate that sentiment. But it's like, well, you're just taking in empty calories on our behalf, mom.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, totally. So we spoke with Avi yesterday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So we got his side of the story.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Let's hear the real story. He told us that you guys met at KU.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And you're still together.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah. Two kids.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Two businesses. Yeah. And so you're doing very similar things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
How did you get into it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And so when you graduated from KU, you had an engineering degree?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
One step in front of the other, huh?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And now you're doing mobile apps or something?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And between you and your husband, who's the better software engineer?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So she's not going to answer that one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Because you've tried and it didn't work, or you never tried it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I think that sounds healthy. What do you think, Adam? It's not bad. Yeah. I don't disagree, but I enjoy working with my wife, so.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I can't. You might be missing out on something you didn't realize.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I said to him, I said to Avi, power couple.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Just in the business side, obviously.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Like that story in a different space is the beginning for so many people. It's really rinse and repeat in your little niche and there's like not guaranteed success. But if you do it long enough, I mean, you're going to bring so much value to so many people.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Do you charge a referral fee?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
dinner out or anything you know dinner's on him you should do it you guys are giving me ideas you should do it in like marital favors that's what we do and there's lots of ways you could take that obviously yeah but i should yeah i would leverage it yeah every time i send you a referral i get a manicure and a pedicure or something yeah if you're into that kind of thing the joker said the best thing he said if you're good at something don't do it for free yeah
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Do you see yourself scaling beyond what your parents did with your business?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What about family?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Scaling your family?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
No.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's a lot. That was a quick one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah. I got 2.5.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Well, that's exciting.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Good luck to you. Thanks for stopping by and talking with us.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's all and that's it. Our All Things Open 2024 hallway track coverage ends right here. Well, that's not 100% true, I guess, because we do have a ChangeLog++ members-only episode coming soon, so stay tuned for that if you are a++ supporter. Otherwise, yeah, this is it. Until next year, at least. One more shout-out to all of our guests on this Anthology episode.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You were doing so well. Is that how you do it right? You were doing so well.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, it's a pretty cool brand You've never had it? Maybe I have. I'm just not a butter snob, so I don't know if I've had it or not. I think my Wi-Fi is the worst of the butter.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's vodka. I would tend to agree that butter is hard to go wrong with. It's just really good.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Butter's the way. Especially grass-fed Irish cows. That's right, man. What do you mean? You don't do butter tasting? I butter taste all the time, man. Daily, pretty much daily, I taste some butter. Butter's good. Butter's good.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Great lighting, too. Yeah. Very nice.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Oh, Factorio. Oh, that's the game, right? Yeah. Like some sort of a builder game? Yeah. I haven't played it, so I'm literally ignorant right here. I'm telling you how much I know about it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
But that one... What's different about that one?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So Chris Hiller on JS Party is big into that game. And he was trying to tell me about it. And I was like, I don't want to try playing that because I'll probably never stop.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Like a grind? Are you grinding?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And the joy, I guess, would be similar joys.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, I use video games now as like a decompression from work, you know, 45 minutes to an hour after I'm done working.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Put everything else away and just play for an hour and then I can be done and move on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Oh, yeah. I played Geometry Dash way back in the day. Oh, yeah? I moved on from it because I was kind of addicted to it. Do you ever move on from it? Well, maybe not. I mean, it changes you. Yeah. But, yeah, I love Geometry Dash. I just don't play it anymore.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We should give BMC some Geometry Dash.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, I got big into Roller Coaster Tycoon and SimCity. Oh, yeah. After that, I kind of moved away from builders myself. Yeah. But now it's Rocket League. My kids like Rocket League, and now I like it. And so we play it together, which is great. Co-op.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So you're talking about things. You try to self-host everything you can. What services do you not self-host and why?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Well, they're changing things. Are they? Bitwarden? Yeah, Bitwarden relicensed an SDK. I thought I saw they reversed that, though.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
This was like last week, though. So there's news since then?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Because they pushed. There was pushback.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So they reversed course. That's cool. I'm glad to hear that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Are you happy with that?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Gotcha.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Photos is interesting because we've debated photos recently. We did. That's kind of a hard line of... Like the one thing you don't want to mess up?