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Appearances
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
It's an investment of your time, of your finances. And maybe if your family's assisting you, it's an investment of their finances in you. It's also an investment, especially if you're at a Christian college, of donors who have enabled that college to be there and enable you to be there to study.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And it's an investment of time, of the administration, of the staff, and certainly of the faculty as they are educating you. And again, if it's a Christian college, also seeking to disciple you. So college is an investment. College also is intense investment. a lot is concentrated into a short amount of time in college.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
There's a lot of introductory courses, so intro to philosophy or intro to sociology or intro to theology. And so you have professors who are experts in those fields, and they've studied for decades in those fields, and they've got to compress all of that field into one semester. And it may feel like you're sitting in class drinking at a fire hose because you, in fact, So, college is just intense.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Everything about it is intense. And also, if you are a college student, here's one thing we can say for sure. It's your vocation. It's your calling. If you're there, God has put you there. God has called you to that, and it is your post. Calvin loved to talk about vocation, and Calvin would say, whether you are a pot washer or Or you are on sentry duty. This is your calling of God.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And so college is an investment. It is very intense. And it is your calling. You are to apply yourself to it. So that's college. Now let's think about what church is. Church is the God-ordained institution. So church is God-ordained, and what that means is it is absolutely essential and central to your Christian life.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Dr. Nichols, we have a question from a new college student, and they're wanting to know how can they balance their workload in school with their desire to serve and minister in their local church?
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
So now we have two important things that can be very demanding, and now we have to balance them. And here's where you begin to learn what is very important to learn as you go through college, not just knowledge, but wisdom. And so how can we wisely balance pursuing our education as a calling and our ministry in the church? Well, let me just say a few things. First, you need to attend church.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
You need to attend church joyfully, and you need to attend church attentively. So that means you're not out all hours of Saturday night and then finding yourself trying to hold your eyelids open during the Sunday morning service. So attend joyfully and attend attentively to the service. But as far as service goes,
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
I would say, and this is a principle for whatever stage of life you find yourself in, look for areas of service that are compatible with your training, with your gifting, with your age, and that are compatible with your time and attention to those other callings in your life. So I'll give you an example of this. I have a friend who's a CPA, and he loves to teach Sunday school.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
But their church is set up with a quarterly Sunday school system, and they have a wide pool, a deep bench of Sunday school teachers. So he's never able to teach in quarter one and quarter two because he is just so busy with his practice that the time he has, he needs to make sure he gives proper attention to his family, and there's not a whole lot of time left over.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
But when it gets to quarter three and quarter four, now he's able to teach Sunday school. And so in a sense, you could see your college life like that. It's a season of life. There's an intensity there. And you may have desires to do things, but those things you have desires to do may not be compatible with the time and attention that you have.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Well, first of all, let me say to you, congratulations on being a college student. I remember talking to Dr. Sproul about just how wonderful it is to teach in colleges. And he said the reason that he loved teaching in college, and actually the reason that he wanted to start a college was, and he was very frank, he said, I want their minds.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Or take, for instance, a family and we have a young mom with an infant or a father with a young infant. Well, that might be a time where they're not able to pursue a certain ministry in the church. And later in a season in life, they'd be able to. So this is something that's going to be with you your whole life.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And I think you have to be, again, careful to just look for those areas of service beyond attending that are compatible with where you are in life and the time and attention you can give to it. We need to recognize that we are finite creatures and we all have the same amount of time in a week.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And we have to steward that time well so that the opportunities that God has given and put in front of us, we are optimizing and we are making the most of. And I'll just say one more thing. The service that you might want to be doing in church or can be doing while you're in college will likely not be the service you'll do as an older adult in church.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
How can college students balance their education with their service and ministry in the church? Joining me this week for the Ask Ligonier podcast is Dr. Stephen Nichols. He's a Ligonier Ministries teaching fellow and also the president of Reformation Bible College.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And that's okay because you need to have some more gifting, more developing, and just more life and wisdom and seeing the application of scriptures in your life for some of those teaching ministries and some of those other ministries that may come to you later in life. But those opportunities to serve are there.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And if you can serve where you're needed most and be faithful in those opportunities to serve, I fully believe that God honors that by bringing opportunities to us later in life as we serve faithfully. So God bless in your studies. God bless as you serve the church and as you balance that intensity and that calling of being a student with being a member of your church.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
I'm Nathan W. Bingham, and this has been Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. If you'd like to ask a biblical question for a future episode, you can always call us at 1-800-607-9386, or record that question on your smartphone and email it to us at askligoniervm at ligonier.org. And if you like the show, please leave a review on your favorite podcast app.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Because we learn from sociologists that your sort of mental development and sort of the development of you and your worldview really takes place in two moments in your life when you're in that four to six, two to six for some people, age span, and then college. So these are very important years in your life.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
So let me just encourage you to make the most out of your college experience as you develop your worldview and affirm and go deeper on your convictions and set that trajectory for your life. And you're asking a very important question. How do you balance your education with ministry in the church? Well, first, let's just think a little bit about college. First of all, college is an investment.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And so if you put those two words together, it means to lead from the beginning or to lead from the outset. And so as it is applied to Christ, Jesus is the author or the pioneer, and that's really probably the better translation, because as the pioneer, he is the one who has led from the beginning. He is the one who went from the beginning. He went from the outset.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
He was the one who went early on and led. And the second word in Hebrews 12.2, Jesus is both the author or pioneer and finisher or end. perfecter of our faith. The word there is very helpful because it is related to the same word that Jesus used when he said on the cross, it is finished.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And so it speaks to Christ's perfect life, law-keeping life, fulfilling each and every aspect of the law of God, fulfilling the righteous demands of the law of God, so that when he died, his life that was perfect and sinless, even though he was tempted in every way as we are yet without sin, that Christ's life is the basis of our righteousness. He earned it for us.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And so we are saved by his works, his righteousness, his perfect life, so that when he died, his death would be a sacrificial atonement, a substitutionary and a vicarious atonement that was finished for us. So when Hebrews speaks of Jesus being the author or founder or pioneer of our faith and the finisher of our faith, it's not only saying that he's gone before us, that he's gone from the outset.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
but also that He has finished it for us. He has completed it for us, that we are secure. That's why the author of Hebrews tells us to look to Him, and not just to look to Him, but to fix our eyes on Him, because He is our hope. He is the one who's gone before us. He has won the victory, and we have nothing else ultimately to fear.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
You have been listening to Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. R.C. Sproul founded this ministry, and for over five decades, we've been helping Christians know what they believe, why they believe it, how to live it, and how to share it. To learn more about Ligonier, download the free Ligonier app from your favorite app store or visit Ligonier.org.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
The language of Jesus being the author and perfecter of our faith comes from Hebrews 12 and verse 2. And I think a lot of Christians really don't understand what those words mean because they've been translated variously in different Bible translations. Sometimes we hear the word author. Sometimes we hear the word pioneer. Sometimes it's even translated as founder.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
What does it mean that Christ is the author and perfecter of our faith? This week on the Ask Ligonier podcast, we're joined by Dr. Burke Parsons. He serves as Ligonier's chief editorial officer and is also the senior pastor at St. Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Florida. Dr. Parsons, what does it mean when Scripture speaks of Christ being the author and perfecter of our faith?
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
So that Jesus is the founder and perfecter, or the author and finisher, or the pioneer and finisher of our faith. And so I think a lot of Christians are confused about what do those words mean? And just as importantly, how do we understand those words and how do they apply to our lives?
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
Especially as we look to Jesus as the author and perfecter of our faith, which is what the author of Hebrews is telling us to do in our fight against sin, in all of our struggles. What does it mean that he is the author and perfecter of our faith? Well, let's look at those words individually. First of all, we have the word author or founder, or as it's translated elsewhere as pioneer.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And that word in the original language is comprised of two words. The first part of the word is the word ark. And of course, we have cognate to that word in English. We have archaeology and archetype. And essentially, that word means early or first or beginning or from the outset. The second word in that compound Greek word is the word ago, which means I lead.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Sproul was a fantastically clear communicator. And for all his intellectual ability, he gave his life to communicating Christian theology to ordinary Christians who had never been to seminary. So that, I think, is where I would begin.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Another book I might recommend, which is a much older book, but a very attractive book, is a book by a man called Thomas Watson, who was a minister in London in the 17th century. And I think he must have been a fantastic minister to have. He had a tremendous reputation.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
ability to express Christian theology in ways that are digestible and also with a great warmth and with some wonderful illustrations and even some great Latin phrases. Even if you don't know any Latin, you know, it's kind of attractive to read and to think about. And I think they're translated in the modern version. So everyone's a theologian and body of divinity.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Then the next stage, there is a book that I think is really a very beautiful exposition of Christian theology written by the Dutch theologian Herman Bavinck. It was translated into English, I think, in the 1950s and published then as Our Reasonable Faith. And it's been more recently republished in a much more attractive edition called
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
with the original title of Magnalia Dei, The Great Works of God. And Bavinck was a theologian of the first rank, a wonderful theologian. And this is a quite separate book that he wrote for Christians in general. It's, I think, probably more challenging than either Dr. Sproul or Thomas Watson, But it's a very engaging book. He just writes with a lovely warmth.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
And I think that's a book that teaches you that high-level theological thinking can be very beautiful to read. Then beyond that, I think you come to the stage where you're starting reading systematic theology textbooks. And a book I used a lot when I was a teenager and into my 20s, now probably about 80 years old, I think, is a book called Systematic Theology written by Louis Berkhoff.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
It is not the most readable book in the world, but it's absolutely jam-packed with information. And I think that's very helpful. And then to crown it all is a four-volume systematic theology by the same man, Herman Bavinck, which has been translated into English only, I think, in the last 30 years. And it is really just an outstanding exposition of theology with great warmth.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Well, asking questions about books today is asking to select out of probably thousands and thousands of good books that are available to us. But when people ask particularly about theology books and systematic theology books,
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
And then, if you're still game for more, there are modern systematic theologies by people that listeners to Ligonier broadcast are probably familiar with, perhaps especially Joel Beakey's multi-volume work on systematic theology, Michael Horton's work on systematic theology, Bob Letham's work on systematic theology. And these are larger and they're all written by native English speakers.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
They're written by people who are living in the modern world and therefore, in a way, are more up to date. So those books, I think, would keep people going on a summer vacation and into the long winter nights. And I think they're all very helpful indeed.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
This is Nathan W. Bingham, and you've been listening to Ask Ligonier. If you like the show, why not subscribe or write a review on your favorite podcast app? If you'd like more information or for the archive of episodes, simply visit ask.ligonier.org slash podcast.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
What are some good systematic theology books to help believers grow in their faith? This week we're joined by the vice chairman of Ligonier Ministries, Dr. Sinclair Ferguson. He's also a Ligonier Ministries teaching fellow. Dr. Ferguson, what systematic theologies would you recommend to a Christian to help them grow in their faith?
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
I think we can start from what I would recommend to somebody who was beginning right through to what I might recommend to somebody who had already studied a lot of Christian doctrine and theology. So the book I recommend to people who are beginning is Dr. Sproul's book, Everyone's a Theologian. for a couple of reasons. One is because the title takes people by surprise.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
And by the title, he's echoing Martin Luther actually in the title, but by the title, he is helping people to realize that it's not just some people who are to think theologically, but that we all think theologically. It's just that we either think well theologically or bad theologically. And it's written for ordinary Christians. It's superbly well written. R.C.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And I think it's not only important, but I think it's liberating for us to understand that God understands our chronic sickness, and He wants us to take care of ourselves. And that's not just an option, that's actually a command. That's part of what it means to love ourselves as we love our neighbors.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
We want to care for our neighbors, but it really is a command that we should also care for ourselves. And I'm struck by the fact that when Paul writes to Timothy, remember, he says to Timothy, who obviously himself suffered from some kind of chronic sickness. It seemed to be gastric in nature, but maybe affected other parts of his anatomy.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
He says to him, make sure you take care of yourself and take a little wine for your stomach's sake. And he actually says, stop drinking water. And I think that's an indication that there was some conflict in Timothy and that Paul is saying, Timothy, you will not be of use in the kingdom unless you take care of yourself. So it's really important to do that.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And I think it's also releasing to know that the Scriptures encourage us to do that. Because often as Christians, we have this inner drive to do more. And sometimes that drive can lead us astray. So I would say that's the first thing.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
I think the second thing I would say is that in the very nature of the case, a chronic sickness or chronic illness is not only physical, it also usually affects us emotionally and psychologically, and therefore can also affect us spiritually. it can make us prone to discouragement and even depression.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
If there is in your church a friend with a cheerful spirit, but who is also not irritatingly cheerful, who has a sympathetic spirit, then cultivate that friendship. And then I think most of all in this connection, keep your eyes fixed on Christ because he understands you and he is sympathetic.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
Dr. Ferguson, we have a question this week from someone who suffers from a chronic illness, and they'd like to know how they can balance sacrificial love and service to others with taking care of their own body.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And then the third major thing I think I would say is we live in an evangelical subculture where our spiritual value is often measured by what we do, whereas in Scripture our spiritual value is measured by two things. One is how much God loves us because He's given His Son for us. And the second thing is, what matters to Him is not so much what we do, but who we are and what we become.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And you do not need to be doing as a Christian to minister to others. Just your being, the way you are as a Christian, even the way you handle chronic sickness as a Christian, leaves its mark on others. I think I saw that many, many years ago.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
A man I knew who had been at university for quite a number of years when I arrived at university, and because he had various illnesses, including a brain tumor that was operated on at least a couple of times, we ended up in the same year in theological studies and became very good friends. He was a very unusual person, really unusual person.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And eventually he was really debilitated in many ways by his illness. And he went to be with the Lord. And afterwards, he was doing a doctorate at the time, but he was quite a bit older than I was. And I was given his papers to see if I could make something of them. And I wrote a little memoir of him with some things that he had done.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
But as I looked at the papers, I was really puzzled because I couldn't, I was looking for something that told me this is what this man's life was for. You know, a kind of tangible fruit of his life. And then it dawned on me that that actually wasn't what God purposed him to be for. and that the really important thing about him was not what he accomplished, but what God made him.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
Because you couldn't be with him without seeing how God had given him grace to be strong in the midst of his weakness and to keep looking to Christ in the midst of his affliction. And he was a great example to me of that principle. It doesn't matter what you do or what you can't do, but that God ministers to others through what you are.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
Well, suffering from chronic illness is a suffering that other people don't always see. And I think that in itself can present certain challenges to people. You know, if you break a leg, people are sympathetic and you discover an amazing number of people seem to have broken a leg as well. And there's a community of sympathy.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
As someone who suffers from a chronic illness, how do I balance service to others with taking care of my own body? Joining us this week on the Ask Ligonier podcast is Dr. Sinclair Ferguson, a Ligonier Ministries teaching fellow and also our vice chairman here at Ligonier.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And I think that's a very helpful thing to remember when, you know, our powers are lessened, not just through chronic illness, but also when we get older. and we feel we're not doing as much as we used to be able to do. That it's who we are in the family of God that really matters.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
I'm Nathan W. Bingham, and this has been Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. To browse our growing library of podcasts, including Renewing Your Mind, Ultimately with R.C. Sproul, Things Unseen with Sinclair B. Ferguson, and others, simply search for Ligonier Ministries in your favorite podcast app.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
But I think one of the things that happens with somebody who experiences chronic sickness is that with it they can feel quite isolated. And that sometimes produces a certain sense of conflict within them that they want to do more to serve Christ, but they don't feel able to do more. So I think I would say certain things.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
The first is to remember what the cabin staff say when they speak to you at the beginning of a flight, that in an emergency, there will be masks that will drop, you hope, from these compartments above you. And if you're carrying somebody who's a child or you're with somebody who is unwell, make sure you put your own mask on before you help somebody else.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
with respect, and we'll see later, Peter's going to use the word to talk to unbelievers and non-Christians of reverence, but with respect, and then also to back up our message, as it were, with the lifestyle and with the conduct. So what is true for these believing wives of unbelieving husbands is also true for believing sons and daughters of unbelieving parents.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Your question was framed so well that, yes, you need to love and you need to respect. God has ordained the family. It is a part of the natural law, the natural order of things that we talk about. And whether they're Christians or non-Christians, all children are to obey their parents and to honor their parents. It's part of the Ten Commandments, which is a codification of natural law.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And so having family relationships that are loving, that are kind, that are respectful are required of all of us as Christians and non-Christians, but especially required of us as Christians. And that's not contingent on those other family members being Christians. The other place where we can get some insight is a little bit later in 1 Peter 3.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Now here, Peter is not talking at all about family relationships. He's just talking about Christians and non-Christians. And so Peter says at 1 Peter 3.15, "...but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you." Yet, he adds, do it with gentleness and respect.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Well, first let's look at the activity there. Peter says you need to be ready. If you get asked, why do you have this hope? Why are you a Christian? You need to be ready to give an answer. So you need to be prepared. So you ask, how do I witness to my parents? Well, anticipate some of the questions they might ask. You know them. You know what objections they might have.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
They might think that, well, all Christians are hypocrites. Well, be ready to respond to that. They may have doubts about the Bible. Can it really be authoritative? Can it be trustworthy? Anticipate that and be ready to give an answer for that. So we call this apologetics. In fact, we get that word from this verse.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
The words that are translated to make a defense is actually the Greek word apologia, and that's from which we get apologetics. But Peter's not only interested in the message, he is interested in the message, but he's also interested in how we convey the message, not just the content and not just being willing to give that answer, but how we give it and the manner that we give it.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Of course, if God has opened your eyes to the truth of the gospel, you want that for the people in your life. You want that for your loved ones. You want that for your siblings and your parents and your friends. So I can really appreciate where the question is coming from. Fortunately, we have help because Scripture helps us on this. In 1 Peter chapter 3, Peter writes.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And so he says, yet do it with gentleness and respect. Now that word translated respect in the ESV, is the same Greek word back in 1 Peter 2, verse 17. And back in 1 Peter 2, verse 17, we read, "'Honor everyone, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor.'" Now that expression, fear God, is of course the word phobia, from which we get phobia in English.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
It's the same word over in 1 Peter 3.15. We could easily translate respect there as fear. So one way you can't witness to your parents is by being unloving, unkind, and argumentative. That's not following Peter's advice here, whether it's the specific advice to wives and their husbands earlier in the chapter or to all non-Christians in the middle of the chapter. So think very much about that.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And then lastly, I would say pray. Just pray. You know, there's all kinds of stories from church history of mothers praying for their wayward sons. Probably there's no better story than Monica and Augustine. And well, she might have done more than pray because she also followed Augustine wherever he went all around the Mediterranean world and kept tabs on him.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
I believe one time Augustine slipped out in the middle of the night, did not tell her where he was going. She found him anyway. So that might be extreme. But one of the things Monica never stopped doing was praying for Augustine. And decades later, God answered those prayers. So we hear lots of stories of of parents praying for their sons and daughters, prodigals, to come home.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
How can I properly love, honor, and witness to my non-Christian parents? This week on the Ask Ligonier podcast, we're joined by the president of Reformation Bible College, Dr. Stephen Nichols. He also serves as a teaching fellow at Ligonier Ministries. Dr. Nichols, how can a Christian love, honor, and witness to their unbelieving parents? Hmm. That's a great question.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And so we also need to recognize that God wants the sons and daughters to pray for the unbelieving parents. And so that's very important to do in this process of loving and honoring and respecting and witnessing, is to pray. And I have no doubt that you do. But let me just encourage you to be steadfast and persevere in those prayers.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
I'm Nathan W. Bingham, and this has been Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. If you'd like to ask a biblical question for a future episode, you can always call us at 1-800-607-9386, or record that question on your smartphone and email it to us at askligoniervm at ligonier.org. And if you like the show, please leave a review on your favorite podcast app.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Now, he's not talking about children to their parents and sons and daughters to their parents. He's talking about wives to their husbands. But I think it applies. And Peter says, likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands so that even if some do not obey the word. So what we're talking about here is wives who find themselves with husbands who are not believers.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And Peter uses that expression, who do not obey the word, to represent unbelievers. So wives married to unbelieving husbands, Peter says to them, Be subject to your own husbands, even if they don't obey the word, so they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives. He goes on to say, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. So this is where we need to begin.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
All right. So you want to look into how to build socialism from below. And you've given us a really interesting mix of stuff to dig into here.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's about cultivating those values of cooperation, solidarity, compassion, even in our everyday interactions.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Yeah, because at the end of the day, the world we create starts with the choices we make each day.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
How we treat each other, how we consume, how we engage with our community.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So as we wrap up this deep dive, I want to leave you, our listener, with this question.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
If you were to start building socialism from below in your own community, what would your first step be?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And who knows, your step might inspire others to follow, creating a ripple that could change the world.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's a really interesting concept. Yeah. He's saying that every time we engage in activity purely for the love of it, for the joy of creating something or helping someone. Yeah. We're kind of subtly pushing back against that logic of capitalism.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
You're not doing it for some external reward. Right. You're doing it for the intrinsic satisfaction of the activity itself.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And that's like a powerful act of defiance. Yeah. In a world that's increasingly dominated by market forces.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Exactly. And your sources offer some really good concrete examples of how this is already happening. Things like worker cooperatives, community land trusts.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's like they're creating these pockets of socialism.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
These little glimpses of what a different kind of society could look like.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. So if we're talking about building socialism from below, it can't just be about economics.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So groups like Cooperation Jackson, which specifically focuses on empowering black working class communities. They're saying that building socialism from below needs to start by addressing those systemic inequalities.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's not just about building a better future. It's about reckoning with the past and addressing the injustices that continue to shape our present.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So how do they actually go about doing this? Well, what are some of the strategies they use?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's not about just waiting for some big revolution. Right. You know, it's like, what can we do right now? Yeah. Right where we are.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's about changing the way we do things, changing the way we relate to each other.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. Direct democracy from ancient Greece to modern day movements. There's this idea of people coming together face to face to make decisions collectively without relying on representatives.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
But let's be real. Isn't that incredibly challenging to implement on a large scale?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Especially in today's complex societies. Sure. How do you get millions of people to participate in every single decision?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So things like neighborhood assemblies, worker councils, community based decision making processes. Exactly.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's not about throwing out everything and starting from scratch. Right. It's about finding ways to introduce these more democratic practices into our existing structures and gradually expand their reach.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
That's been nagging at me too. It seems like a lot of the examples we've been talking about are very localized. But how do we scale that up to create systemic change?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK, so less about top down control, more about people power.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
I mean, are we talking about getting rid of wages altogether?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's like planting the seeds of a new economy right within the old one.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And that reminds me we are about to dive into some real world examples. Yes. Of these cracks in capitalism.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Before we pause. Mm hmm. Your source mentioned things like community gardens, time banks, even open source technology and the sharing economy.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK, so let's break these down a little bit. OK. Community gardens. I get that.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
You know, growing your own food, being sustainable, building community.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It fits right in with this whole from below idea.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Like a mini socialist society in action. Yeah. Working together, sharing the rewards.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK. So it's basically the idea that the way we organize and make decisions like within our movements should reflect the kind of society we actually want to create.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
With climate change and all the uncertainty in the world.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So instead of paying someone to fix my leaky faucet.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
I could trade them like an hour of my questionable guitar skill.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's a way of recognizing those essential jobs that often don't get paid enough.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Like the care work that women usually end up doing.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Okay. This is all starting to sound pretty utopian. I mean, could it really work on a large scale?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK, let's tackle the tricky one. Open source tech and the sharing economy.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
I mean, companies like Uber and Airbnb. Right. They're all about profit.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So a community owned ride sharing platform that's nonprofit is totally different from a corporation like Uber that's exploiting its workers and driving inequality.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Making technology free and modifiable. So communities can build their own platforms instead of relying on corporations.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's about creating a more decentralized democratic society.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Where people have more control over their own lives.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's a shift from this like me first mentality to one of cooperation and understanding that we're all connected.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's like that quote from The Ecology of Freedom.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
The most distant journey begins with a single step.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Precisely. It's about building the world we want to see one step at a time. And it's not just about formal organizations. It's about fostering a culture of mutual aid, cooperation, respect in all aspects of our lives.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
We've got some theory. We've got some real world examples.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Before we get lost in these big ideas, let's make sure we've got the key takeaways down.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
We talk about how even doing things we love outside of the market can be a form of resistance. And we looked at real world examples like community gardens, time banks, open source tech.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. We've talked about big ideas, but what are the actual steps you can take starting today? I think that's what our listener really wants to know. OK, so we've explored all these inspiring ideas.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
But like, I think our listeners ready for some action.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
What can they actually do to start building socialism from below?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's about finding those little cracks in the system.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And seeing how you can fill them with something better.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
You know, one of your sources, Jackson Rising Redux, really stressed the power of connecting with like-minded people. It's about finding those individuals and groups who are already working towards these goals.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's not about blindly supporting any politician who calls himself a socialist.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Are they truly working to empower communities and redistribute power?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. It's about finding ways to influence policy at the local level, pushing for things that create space for these alternative systems to thrive.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Exactly. It's about using whatever tools you have to create a more fertile ground for socialism from below to take root.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Get ready to dive deep into a topic most people think they know, but really probably don't.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And then this subsequent descent into terror under the Bolsheviks.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's essential to remember that this legacy of terror continues to haunt Russia to this day.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Run deep, shaping the country's political culture and their relationship with the world.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's a sobering reminder of the dangers of unchecked power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. As we move into the final part of this deep dive.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
The world today. Man, this has been quite a journey.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
You know, from Lenin's promises of freedom to the brutal realities of his rule.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And then this horrifying expansion of terror under Stalin.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It really is. And I think it's clear, you know, that the seeds of tyranny were sown very early on.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. It's a stark reminder that revolutions, even those launched with the noblest intentions, can be corrupted by power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So as we wrap up this deep dive, it's important to kind of shift our focus from the past to the present.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. Because understanding how terror takes root, how it spreads, how it infects even the most idealistic movements, that's essential to preventing its recurrence.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So, I mean, one of the, I guess, the most important lessons here is this danger of unchecked power, right?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. We're going to go way beyond, you know, the storming of the Winter Palace.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
We need to look at Lenin. Right. Lenin. Yeah. His ideology, his approach to revolution. Because initially he was presenting himself as this champion of democracy and freedom.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. Both Lenin and Stalin were able to consolidate their authority because there were no effective checks and balances in place.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Even in the context of, you know, a revolution that's supposed to be championing the rights of the working class.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's right. That's right. And while it's impossible to create perfect systems of governance, I think we can and must advocate for structures that promote transparency, accountability, and the rule of law.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So it's about supporting the institutions that uphold these values.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Like a willingness to recognize those warning signs.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. The warning signs of authoritarianism. Right. And a willingness to speak out against injustice.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's got to be tough, you know, sometimes to do that.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And we've seen how easily fear can take hold.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So I think courage is a crucial antidote. Yes. To that fear.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And courage isn't always about, you know. Right. Grand gestures of defiance. Right. Yeah. It's about the everyday choices we make. OK. It's about being willing to question authority. Yeah. To challenge the status quo, to speak truth to power, even in small ways.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And that means being critical of all forms of power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's right. We have to be willing to challenge our own assumptions.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. And listen to perspectives that are different.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's easy to fall into that trap of thinking that our side is inherently good and their side is inherently bad.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, he does. He demonstrates very powerfully how the lines between good and evil, between liberator and oppressor, can be blurred very easily when power goes unchecked.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's important to remember that, you know, Lenin truly believed he was acting in the best interests.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But his unwavering conviction. Right. His refusal to tolerate any dissent. Right. Ultimately led him down this path of just unimaginable brutality.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's this cautionary tale about, you know, the seductive nature of power and the dangers of ideological rigidity.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's not just about protecting individual rights. Right. It's about ensuring that we can hold power accountable and that we can challenge dangerous ideologies before they take root and metastasize.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Which is kind of wild. Like what was that? Did he have a change of heart?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And we see this throughout history and even in the world today. Right. Governments, powerful interests.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Trying to control the narrative, to suppress dissent, to manipulate public opinion.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, I mean, not really a change of heart when he learned that the provisional government had abolished the death penalty. He was furious. Really? Yeah. As Trotsky recounts in his memoirs, Lenin believed that executions were an indispensable tool for consolidating power and maintaining order.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. And it's scary to think that with the rise of social media, it's easier than ever to spread propaganda and disinformation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And these are incredibly powerful tools for communication. But they can also be used for manipulation and control.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So I think media literacy is more important now than ever before.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
We really got to be able to critically evaluate the information we consume.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's that old saying, don't believe everything you read on the Internet.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But these days, it's not just the Internet. It's everywhere. It's everywhere, you know. We're bombarded with information from all sides and we have to sift through the noise.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's much easier to just passively consume information.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
whatever's in front of us to accept the dominant narrative or question.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But this deep dive has shown us that kind of apathy and complacency can have dangerous consequences. So what's the antidote to this apathy?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, I think for one, we can support organizations that are fighting for human rights and democratic values. We can educate ourselves about the issues.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Engage in thoughtful discussions. Hold our elected officials accountable.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah, and I think it's important to remember that even individual actions can make a difference.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes, they can. Speaking up against injustice, challenging harmful narratives, having difficult conversations with friends and family members. These are all acts of courage.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah, and you never know they might have this ripple effect.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And I think it's also important to never underestimate the power of storytelling. Sharing these stories of those who have suffered under tyranny, fought for freedom, I think can connect with this history on a human level.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
By continuing to fight for a more just and equitable world.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
This book, The Guillotine at Work, it's not just a chronicle of terror. It's also this testament to the resilience of the human spirit.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it reminds us that even in the darkest of times, there is always hope.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Let's keep this conversation going. Yeah, let's keep it going. Let's learn from the past, stay engaged in the present, and work together to create a future where all forms of tyranny, both the wet and the dry guillotine, are relegated to the history books.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, thank you for joining us on this deep dive into the Russian revelation. Yes. We hope it's inspired you to think critically about the world around you.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And to really embrace your own role in shaping a more just and equitable future.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Exact one. Really get down into the weeds of a darker, more complex story of how these revolutionary ideals get twisted into these like instruments of oppression.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Not at all. Maximoff cites official Bolshevik sources that reveal a horrifying number of executions under Lenin's rule.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Even conservative estimates are in the hundreds of thousands.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And he justified this bloodshed in the name of discipline and suppressing enemies.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Mm-hmm. Precisely. Lenin was convinced of his own infallibility. Any opposition to the Bolshevik Party line, any deviation from his vision was a threat to the revolution itself.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes, to root out and eliminate enemies of the people. That's what they call them, enemies of the people.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So who were the enemies of the people at first? I guess it was the bourgeoisie, right? The wealthy elite.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Which I guess is somewhat understandable given the time.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah, but it quickly expanded as Maximoff documents.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it wasn't just the bourgeoisie anymore. It was political opponents like the Mensheviks.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. So anyone who questioned his authority at all, regardless of their political affiliation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Who advocated for individual liberty and decentralized power. Right. Lenin hated that. Yeah. He saw that as a threat to his vision of a centralized authoritarian state.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And what's often overlooked is that it wasn't just like one event.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Just resisting the government's grain requisitions.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. They saw it as a threat to the Bolsheviks control over food distribution, which was essential for them to maintain power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. And so they were demonized, dehumanized, crushed. And Max Moff really details the brutality.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Employed to silence any dissent. Nope. Shooting hostages.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But it was a series of power struggles and shifts in ideology, each more brutal than the last.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
I mean, this was this was the reality, the so-called dictatorship of the proletariat.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And then there's this whole other dimension of terror.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. That Maximoff refers to as this dry guillotine.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So this is where we see Lennon's true genius. Yes. for control, right? The Dry Guillotine wasn't about brute force. It was about a more insidious form of oppression. The control of minds through fear and manipulation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it's like something out of a dystopian novel or something.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It does, doesn't it? But this was the reality in Russia under Lenin. Really? Think about it this way. The wet guillotine, right? Yeah. Eliminated physical opponents. Yeah. But the dry guillotine sought to eliminate opposition itself by controlling what people could think.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And that's where our source material comes in for this deep dive at work. Yeah. 20 years of terror in Russia.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, one of the primary tools was censorship. Independent media was shut down. Anything deemed harmful was destroyed. Libraries were purged of anything that didn't align with the Bolshevik ideology.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. So they were really trying to control the flow of information?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Absolutely. They wanted to create a monopoly on truth.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. They encouraged people to inform on each other, which created an atmosphere of suspicion and paranoia where even family members couldn't trust one another.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it's like turning... Turning people against each other. Yeah.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. And they also used propaganda extensively, right?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. Propaganda was key. It was a weapon in their arsenal to glorify Lenin, to demonize his opponents and create this cult of personality around him. Wow. It was everywhere in schools, workplaces, art, literature, shaping people's perceptions and molding their thoughts.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it's like they were infiltrating every aspect of life. They were. You couldn't escape it.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's like they wanted to control not just your actions. That's right. But your mind.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And Maximoff wasn't just like some historian, you know, kind of watching this all from afar.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's a good way to put it. They aim to create a society where obedience wasn't just enforced, but internalized.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So even if you disagreed with the regime, you'd be too afraid to speak out.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. So this dry guillotine was in a way even more effective than the wet guillotine.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. Way more effective. Because it created this self-perpetuating cycle of fear and self-censorship.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
You didn't need the Checo to come knocking at your door. You were already censoring yourself.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. The Russian Revolution, but not the one you might see in like a textbook or something.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And paranoia. But wasn't this terror just confined to like those outside the party?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, that's where things get even more disturbing.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Because Lenin wasn't content with just silencing dissent outside the party. Right. He was just as ruthless in purging anyone who dared to question his authority.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. Maximoff shows how Lenin systematically sidelined, expelled or exiled prominent figures like Tomsky and Miasnikov, who had the audacity to disagree with him.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Living through this whole thing, you know, witnessing firsthand how the Bolsheviks led by Lenin transformed this promise of liberation into a reign of terror.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it wasn't just about eliminating external enemies.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. Crushing any potential challenge to that power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. Wow. And this is important to remember because this internal purge, this atmosphere of suspicion and fear within the party.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Okay. And that's where we're going to pick up in part two of this deep dive.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
We'll examine how Stalin took this blueprint that Lenin laid out and amplified it to a horrifying scale.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And how the terror became like this defining feature of Soviet life.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. Welcome back. As we kind of dig deeper into Maximoff's book, you really see how Stalin's reign of terror, it wasn't like a sudden departure from Lenin, you know, it was more of a continuation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Down a dark path, exactly. And this period between Lenin's death in 1924 and Stalin's complete consolidation of power is really crucial, I think, to understanding how it evolved.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. You know, I would assume that with Lannan gone, there might have been some sort of like reprieve.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
No, not even close. In fact, you could argue that the dry guillotine, the system of psychological manipulation, social control that we talked about, it became even more refined and systematic during this time. Wow. Why is that? Well, I mean, remember, Russia is in a state of immense turmoil after the Civil War. Right. The economy's in shambles. There's widespread famine.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And his account is so striking because he uses official Bolshevik documents and eyewitness accounts to weave a narrative that goes beyond, you know, just the physical execution.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
People are grappling with the uncertainty of a new political order.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, he was a master manipulator. He positioned himself as the only one strong enough to restore order. The only one capable of defending the revolution from its enemies.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And just like under Lenin, These enemies seem to like multiply at an alarming rate.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. It was a chilling echo of what we saw before.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Anyone who deviated even slightly from the party line was suspect.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But Stalin took it a step further. Right. He wasn't content with just silencing dissent. Right. He wanted to control people's very thoughts.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's terrifying. Like, how do you do that? What were the tools?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, censorship became even more pervasive and ruthless. Independent media was completely eradicated. Wow. Any publications deemed even remotely critical were destroyed. Libraries were purged of anything that didn't align with the official ideology.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
They were. They understood the power of information and they were determined to monopolize it.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it went beyond just controlling information. Right. They actively shaped people's worldview through propaganda.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's like if the party said the sky was green, you better agree.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Very dire. This is where the Chica, now renamed the OGPU, became Stalin's primary instrument of terror. They carried out mass arrests, deportations, and executions with a chilling efficiency.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, no, no, no. This wasn't random violence. This was calculated.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
You know, he went after specific groups. Okay. Peasants who resisted collectivization, religious leaders who challenged his authority, intellectuals who dared to think independently, and even members of the Communist Party itself.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
As opposed to the wet guillotine. Right. Wow. This is the systematic crushing of dissent through exile, censorship and psychological manipulation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wait, party members too? I thought they were supposed to be like the most loyal supporters of the regime.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Stalin was paranoid to the core. Yeah. He saw enemies everywhere.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Anyone who showed even a hint of independence. Right. Anyone who might potentially challenge his authority had to be eliminated.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Where millions were arrested, executed, sent to labor camps.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
The Great Purge was the terrifying apex of Stalin's reign of terror.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's hard to believe that this all happened under the banner of socialism.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Like, how could something that started with such noble intentions go so wrong?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's the question that haunts Maximoff throughout his book. He argues that the seeds of this terror were present in the very ideology of Bolshevism, you know, in its belief in the absolute power of the state and the need to crush all opposition.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
In a way, Stalin was just taking Lenin's ideas to their logical conclusion.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
In a sense, yes. But you also have to remember that Stalin was a ruthlessly ambitious and cunning individual who exploited those ideas to serve his own lust for power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So was there any like organized opposition to Stalin? I mean, were there any like groups or individuals who dared to resist?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
There were there were pockets of resistance, but they were brutally and swiftly suppressed. Right. Maximoff highlights how even within the Communist Party, there were those who bravely spoke out against the excesses of the regime.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Trotsky. Yeah. He vehemently opposed Stalin's rise to power. Right. And criticized the authoritarian direction the Soviet Union was taking.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's fascinating. This this contrast between the initial February revolution, which was relatively bloodless.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, he was exiled from the Soviet Union. And then in 1940, he was assassinated.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. It's like this system where fear was the only acceptable emotion.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And that fear extended far beyond the borders of the Soviet Union. The purges and show trials, they sent shockwaves through the international communist movement. A lot of people were disillusioned, questioning the very ideals they once believed in.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
I can't even imagine like the level of paranoia and distrust.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It did. Maximoff describes the society where everyone was walking on eggshells, constantly afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
By a neighbor, a colleague. Right. A family member even.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It was a world where trust had been completely eroded.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Ever feel like you've read the same self-help book a dozen times? Just a bunch of recycled platitudes.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Like what? Just give us an example.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Which makes me think about another one of his rules, the one about judging others. I always find that to be such a tricky subject because it's so easy to slip into judgment, even when we're trying not to.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So what's Carter's advice on how to approach those judgments with more compassion and understanding?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about extending grace to others, recognizing that we all have our own unique struggles and challenges.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Hmm. That's an interesting way to put it. So it's about trying to see the world through their eyes, to understand the context of their experiences before we pass judgment.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about recognizing that our way isn't the only way and that diversity of thought and experience is what makes life so rich and interesting.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, interesting. What's his take on the whole social media phenomena?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about using those platforms to build bridges rather than walls to foster understanding rather than division.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
That's a really beautiful way to look at it. It's about using technology to cultivate compassion and connection, to create a sense of community in a world that can often feel isolating.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about choosing to move forward without being defined by the past or the actions of others.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, wow. That's powerful. It's a reminder to approach those relationships with tenderness and understanding, especially as our loved ones enter their twilight years.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about honoring the wisdom and experience they've accumulated over a lifetime while also extending grace and patience as they navigate the challenges of aging.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
He's inviting us to engage in that ongoing conversation about what it means to be human with all its complexities and contradictions.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
On that note, to our amazing listeners, we'd love to hear your thoughts. Which of Carter's rules resonated most with you? How are you putting these ideas into practice in your own lives? Keep those conversations going, keep diving deep, and we'll be back next time with another thought-provoking episode. Until then, be well.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
That's powerful. It's not about condoning what happened, but about reclaiming your own emotional well-being.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Okay. I'm intrigued. How does he redefine courage? Isn't it about facing your fears?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's that whole take the log out of your own eye idea, right? It's about acknowledging that we're all works in progress and none of us has it all figured out.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Tell me about it. Nobody actually enjoys being criticized, even if it's meant to be helpful. So what's Carter's advice on handling criticism gracefully? Both when we're on the receiving end and when we need to give it to someone else.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like that Maya Angelou quote, people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. So even when we're offering constructive criticism, it's got to come from a place of compassion, not judgment.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Whoa, that stops you in your tracks, doesn't it? It makes you realize how much our experiences shape how we see the world.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about bridging that gap between us and them, recognizing that we're all part of this big, messy, beautiful human tapestry.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Talk about an eclectic mix. So who is this Mason Carter? Fill us in.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Interesting. So it's like, don't wait for someone else to point out your flaws. Be proactive about identifying areas where you can improve.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about taking ownership of our own journeys, right? Not relying on others to validate us or tell us who we are.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
OK, humility. I feel like that word gets tossed around a lot these days. But what does it actually mean in this context?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about embracing the possibility that other people might have something valuable to teach us, even if we don't always agree with them.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Love and selflessness. Those sound like pretty lofty ideals. How does he connect those dots?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
And he's not just talking about romantic love here, right? This applies to our relationships with our friends, our families, our communities.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's like that ripple effect. When we act from a place of love and compassion, it creates these positive waves that extend outward, impacting not only the people we interact with directly, but also those we interact with, and so on.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Prefiguration. Now there's a word you don't hear every day. What does that even mean?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Okay, so we've got Gothic lit and socialism. Those don't usually go together, do they? How does that work?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
OK, I'm starting to see how this all fits together. So it's not enough to just talk the talk. We have to walk the walk. Our actions have to be in alignment with the values we espouse.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about being the change. Which makes me think about something else Carter talks about. Anger. Because let's face it, even with the best intentions, we all get angry sometimes as a normal human emotion. But it can also be incredibly destructive if we don't know how to handle it constructively. So what's Carter's take on anger management?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, I know that voice all too well. It's like the master of rationalization, always ready with a reason why it's OK for me to unleash my fury on the world.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about taking a step back, taking a few deep breaths and choosing a different response, even if it's difficult in the moment.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Which is often easier said than done, especially when we feel like we've been wronged.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about breaking free from that cycle of reactivity and choosing a more conscious, compassionate response.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Apologies. Those can be tough. Sometimes it feels like swallowing our pride. What's Carter's take on that?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about recognizing that we've hurt someone, even if it wasn't intentional, and taking responsibility for our part in this situation.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about creating a space where we can be vulnerable with each other, where we can mess up and be forgiven, where we can learn and grow together.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's like he's embracing the duality of human nature.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, education. Always a hot topic. What's Carter's take on the current state of our education system?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about moving away from that rote memorization, that teaching to the test mentality and fostering a love of learning for its own sake.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about empowering them to think critically, to question assumptions, to challenge the status quo.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
The good, the bad, the beautiful, the messy.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
And he uses some pretty interesting examples to illustrate his points, right?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
You've got it. He talks about how those two didn't just regurgitate the teachings of Socrates. They built upon them, challenged them, and ultimately created their own unique philosophies.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Precisely. And he argues that this active engagement with knowledge shouldn't be confined to the classroom. It's something we should all strive for throughout our lives, always seeking new information, new perspectives, new ways of understanding the world around us.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
I love that. And, you know, another area where Carter encourages us to go deeper is in our relationships. He's not a fan of superficiality or pretension. He believes that true connection comes from a place of authenticity and vulnerability. So it's about being genuine, letting our true selves shine through, even with all our quirks and imperfections.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like we're building walls instead of bridges. We're missing out on the beauty of true intimacy, that feeling of being seen and accepted for who we truly are.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Okay, I'm all ears. What's Carter's secret to happiness?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Wow, that's so simple yet so profound. It's about appreciating what we have, who we're with, and the beauty of this present moment, rather than constantly chasing after something more.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about savoring those everyday moments, the laughter, the conversations, the shared experiences that make life so rich and meaningful.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
I can get behind that. So how does this all play out in his 36 Rules for Life?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Well, buckle up, because on today's deep dive, we're talking 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter. And trust me, this is not your average self-improvement guru.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like that old adage, joy shared is joy doubled.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about recognizing our interconnectedness, that we're all part of this intricate web of life, and that our actions have ripple effects that extend far beyond what we can see or even imagine.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Is it like a how-to manual for embracing our inner darkness?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like we become these little beacons of hope, lighting the way for others to step into their own authenticity and embrace a more compassionate way of being.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Like his rule about approaching pessimism from a place of wisdom and preparedness, not doom and gloom, right?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about acknowledging the darkness without letting it consume us.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Right. It's about holding on to that spark of hope, that belief in our own resilience and the possibility of a brighter future.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
We're all in this together, stumbling and striving, learning and growing. And sometimes we need a little guidance along the way.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
And to find those unexpected sources of wisdom and inspiration even in the darkest of corners.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about being open to those unexpected sources of wisdom, those little sparks of truth that can ignite our imaginations and inspire us to live more meaningful lives.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, that's not what I would expect it. How does he spin pessimism in a positive light?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's like that old saying, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. It's about being realistic without letting fear paralyze us.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
I like that. It's about approaching life with a healthy dose of caution, but not letting that caution turn into cynicism or despair. It's about being prepared for setbacks without losing sight of our goals.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Right. So get ready for a deep dive into a story that's, well, it's heartbreaking for sure, but also hopeful. Yeah, hopeful. We're off to Karachi, a city, you know, bustling with life, but also struggling with poverty and hardship. And we're going to meet Zero and Ziba.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And then there's, well, Ziba develops this gothic look.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It makes their first meeting even more powerful. Here's Zero. He's out, forced to beg by his uncle. And then there's Ziba with this gothic look. And she's, well, she's surprisingly kind to him.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Two people, they understand suffering, they understand hardship, and they find comfort in each other.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Two people who teach us about resilience and those unexpected ways, ways we find connection, even when things are really, really tough.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's something special to see, especially in a place like that. But then there's Zach. He comes into Ziba's life from a totally different world. He just got back from studying abroad, and he brings this sense of hope with him.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And the conversations they have. Wow. They get into everything, life, the universe. It's electric. They challenge each other.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
But their connection, it feels fragile, doesn't it? Yeah. Like a flower trying to grow in the middle of the sidewalk.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And it explodes. Zach's parents, they don't want them together. So they find out about Ziba's past and they use it against them to manipulate Zach.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And it's just heartbreaking. He just crumbles under that pressure. He confronts Ziba, wants answers, but he doesn't even give her a chance to explain.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Yeah. And it reminds us how quickly trust can be broken. Yeah. And it leaves, well, it leaves devastation behind. Ziva's heartbroken, abandoned again, and she retreats back into herself, back into that darkness.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
He buries himself in his studies, using them to avoid his pain. And there's this bench in a park. It becomes his place to be alone, to remember Ziba.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And that's when he meets Faye. She's, well, she's a free spirit. She sees right through his walls, right to the pain he's hiding. And she offers him a lifeline, makes him laugh, encourages him to live again.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Their connection, it's a slow burn. Two people who are hurting, trying to find comfort. But there's hope there, a little light in all that darkness.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's a battle he has to fight on his own. But as he's doing that, his life takes another turn. One that will bring even more heartache and a huge revelation. So Zach's back in England. Trying to move on, you know. But he's got the weight of the past on his shoulders.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Right. And it's like their lives are, well, they're kind of like a tapestry, I guess. Like all these threads killing a much bigger story. About Karachi. Yeah. But we should start with Zero. Just imagine being orphaned at six years old during a terrorist attack.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And it's ironic, isn't it? Because just as he's finding some stability, some success in England, something happens back in Karachi. Something that'll shatter everything.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It is. Remember Zero. He's been trying to survive on the streets just a kid.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And this is where, well, it gets even darker. Two police officers see Zero and, well, things get out of hand.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's awful. Zero's terrified. He just runs and then he's gunned down. A life lost just like that over a desperate attempt to eat.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's almost too much to bear. But there's this detail, this chilling detail. The officers find something in Zero's hand. A golden locket.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Talk about a cruel twist of fate. And that locket, it becomes a key piece of the puzzle, and it eventually finds its way back to Zach in England. Can you imagine getting that call, finding out a kid you knew, a kid connected to your past, was killed, and he had your picture?
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
He realizes that his actions, his choice to leave, had consequences he never imagined. And if you think it can't get any worse, it does. Zack, he's reeling from Zero's death, and then he finds out Faye, the woman who helped him rebuild his life, she's betrayed him.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Zack's left with so much to deal with. It's a lot, even for a character in a story.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
They really do make you think, long after you've finished with the story. You question yourself, your own biases.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It really makes you wonder about those what ifs. What if Zach had just listened to Ziba?
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
What if he had challenged those expectations, fought for their love?
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
That's right. Zero, Ziba, even Zach. They went through so much, but they never lost their capacity for love, compassion, and hope.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's a powerful message, a reminder that hope exists, that connection is possible, and that the human spirit, well, it can overcome just about anything.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Ooh, Zen. Yeah. Talk about a wolf in sheep's clothing. Right. Forcing Zero into servitude, basically exploiting his own nephew.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's bleak. But then we meet Ziba, a young woman whose beauty is almost haunting.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Like it's a reflection of all the pain that she's gone through. Similar to Zero, she lost her parents in a senseless act of violence. And her uncle, well, he turned out to be no better than Zen.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And when you called 911, where were Jacob and Sabrina? In the garage still. Do you know if they were standing or if they were on the ground or where they were? I don't recall. Do you know if Mr. Kerr still had the knife? I believe so. What were your emotions like at that time? Fear. Terrified. I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B6. Can you identify what that photograph depicts?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That is the hallway leading to the bathroom and the bedrooms. Is that where you headed after you closed the door to the garage? Yes. There is a railing on the left. Where does that staircase go? That leads to the basement. What's in the basement? That was mine and Sabrina's room and storage. There's a door on the right in this photograph. What is in the door on the right?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That would be the bathroom. Did you look in that bathroom on your way back to Eson's bedroom? Yes. What did you see? I saw a body wrapped in a blanket and stains all over the floor. Did you spend much time going in that bathroom and looking with any specificity? Could you see who it was? No. Did you make an assumption in your mind about who it was? Yes. Who did you believe it to be? Hison.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So the doorway all the way at the end of the hall, what is that doorway? That is the door to Hison's room. Is that where you went? Yes. I'm showing you what's been marked as 1B7. What is depicted in this photograph? Hison's room. There's a door immediately to the right. Do you know what that door is? I believe that is a closet.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then there's a door in the back on the right, a doorway that you can see. Where does that doorway lead to? That is the bathroom. And is that where you went? Yes. When you came in through the garage, do you remember if you locked the garage door? I don't believe I did. When you came into Hisan's bedroom, do you remember if you locked that door? Yes, I did. And when you came into the...
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He's on the bathroom. Did you lock that door as well? Yes. What did you do when you got into the bathroom? I grabbed a towel to wrap up my arm and called 911. And did you just stay in the bathroom then, Ken, while you were on the phone with 911? Yes. Do you recall where in that bathroom you were standing? Up against the door. How was your body positioned?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I had my back up against the door and I was standing. While you were in the bathroom, do you recall if anybody else came into the house? Yes. What do you recall?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe that Kayer came back inside and tried to get into the bathroom. How do you know that? Because I could hear him outside of the door.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You know for sure it was him? No. But you suspected it was him? Yes. I'm showing you what's been marked as exhibit 1B8. Can you identify what's depicted in that photograph? Yes, that is the bathroom. There is what appears to be some staining on the floor of the bathroom. Did you observe that staining on the floor of the bathroom before you entered the room? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Based on where you were standing and the nature of your injury, do you believe that staining came from your injury? Yes. And is that standing consistent with where you were standing in the bathroom? Yes. Do you recall making that phone call to 911? Yes, I do. And you recall talking to the dispatcher and remaining on the line until officers arrived? Yes. Did officers eventually arrive unseen? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When they arrived, do you recall dispatch telling you to leave the residence? Yes. And what did you do? I walked through the house and out of the front door. Did you walk back out the garage door where you came in, or did you walk out a different door? I walked out a different door. And that was the front door to the house? Yes. Were officers waiting there to meet you? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's the house where you resided with Sabrina and Sunny Teague? Yes. And were you living there in June of 2016? Yes. Were you working at that time? Yes. Where were you working? Burger King. Do you know about the date range of your employment with that Burger King? January, I believe, until July or August. Is that January 2016? No, yes, 2016, sorry.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then what happened after you met with officers? I was put into an ambulance and rushed to the hospital. Do you recall which hospital you were at? Fallon. What was the nature of the injuries that you suffered?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There was a severed main artery, several severed tendons and nerves. And that is all that I know. What about the injury to your chest? Do you remember that? Yes, I do. And that was just a lesion. Do you recall what you were wearing that night? Yes, I was wearing my black khaki pants and my Burger King work shirt.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, do you recall whether or not you had any weapons on your person that night? Yes. What did you have? I had a pocket knife. Is it typical for you to carry a pocket knife? Yes. Do you recall, did you use that knife at all during this incident? No, I did not. Do you recall dispatch having a conversation with you about that knife? Yes. What was the nature of that conversation?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They asked me if I had any weapons, and I told them that I had my pocket knife, and they told me to take it out of my pocket and leave it in the bathroom. Did you do that? Yes, I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm going to ask you to take a look at Exhibit 1B9. Can you see that knife in that photograph? Yes. Where is it located? Towards the front left of the drawer. And 1B10, can you identify what's present in that photograph? Yes, that is my pocket knife. It appears to be on a tissue. I don't mean to lead you. I don't know whether that's a tissue or not.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Was that white tissue-like object, was that yours or was that in the drawer? That was in the drawer. And again, did you utilize that knife at all during the course of this incident? No, I did not. And you did, in fact, leave it there to be recovered or photographed by law enforcement? Yes. Joel, I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B11.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Can you indicate what's depicted in that photograph? That is mine and Sabrina's room. And which room of the home is that located in? That was downstairs in the basement, the first door on the right. And that's where the two of you stayed together? Yes. I don't mean any offense by this, but it's kind of messy. Is that sort of the normal state of affairs in that room? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, I'm going to ask you to identify Exhibit 12. Can you indicate what's depicted in that photograph? That is one of our windows. I'm going to return to photograph number 11. The window in 12, is that photograph present on this photograph, photograph 11? Yes. And which window is it? That would be that one. I believe you were pointing to the top left-hand side of photograph 11. Is that accurate?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. In number 11, that window is covered. Is that right? Yes. I'm going to return to photograph 12. It appears that there is some grass or plants on the bottom of that, and it appears that the window is broken. To the best of your recollection, prior to June 7, 2016, did the window area look like that? No. Was it broken to your knowledge at all? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, you indicated that you were wearing your Burger King shirt that night. I'm going to ask you to take a look at photograph 1B13. What's depicted in that photograph? That is my work shirt. That's the shirt you were wearing on the night of this incident? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Now, Joel, I know this might be difficult, and ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this might be difficult, but I'm going to show you some photographs that depict your injury, okay? Yes. I'm showing you 1B14. Do you know what's depicted in that photograph? That is my arm. Is that what it looked like after the incident with Mr. Kayer on June 7th of 2016? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And I think you indicated that the knife went directly through your arm. Is that accurate? Yes. Is there a hole on the other side that's not depicted on this photograph? Yes. And that required surgical intervention? Yes. Joel, I'm showing you 1B15. What's depicted in that photograph? My chest and face. Does that photograph accurately depict the injury to your chest? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you start Burger King before or after you started dating Sabrina? After. So January of 2016. Is that correct? Yes. And how long had you resided at that 1368 residence? About six months. During your time living there, had you ever seen or known a person by the name of Jacob Kayer to be at that house? No. Joel, I'm going to direct your attention specifically to June 7th of 2016.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And in 1B16, can you describe what's in that photograph? The wound on my chest. And again, does that accurately depict the injury that you suffered in this incident? Yes. And you indicated what treatment was required for that injury?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I had to go under for surgery, and they sewed my arm back together, and I had three stitches in my chest.
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Joel, as we were having our conversation here today, you were talking to the jury about what happened to you. You called the defendant Kayer. Did you know Jacob Kayer by first and last name on June 7th of 2016? No, I did not. Did you know his last name? No. You did know his first name, though? Yes. Had you met him previously? Once. Where did that occur? At Walmart.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you know about when that was? About a month prior to June 7th.
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And what was the nature of that meeting? Him and Sabrina got into an argument about something, and then we left after that.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I presume at some point, based on that argument and your follow-up conversation with Sabrina, you learned that his name was Jake and that he was Sabrina's ex-boyfriend? Yes. When Mr. Kayer jumped out of that laundry room, did you immediately recognize him as Sabrina's ex-boyfriend? No, I did not. When did you come to recognize him more specifically that night? When she called his name out.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So Sabrina actually called him Jake during the incident? Yes. And then based on what she said and then your subsequent observations, you were able to determine that it was her ex-boyfriend Jake? Yes. Mr. Kerr say anything to you while this attack was happening? No. Anything at all? No. Could you see his face when he came out of the laundry room? Yes. And what was he wearing?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe a black t-shirt, a hat, and jeans. The hat, was it like a baseball cap or what was it? Like a stocking cap. And what color was the hat? Black. But his face was not covered? No. You were able to see it clearly? Yes. What did it look like? Plain. And again, to the best of your knowledge, Mr. Kerr had never been to that house while you were living there? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the only time you ever met him was at that Walmart incident earlier? Yes. Joel, do you recall talking to law enforcement after you were brought to the hospital? Yes. Do you know about how many times you talked to law enforcement? I believe three different times. How soon after the incident did that occur?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
About right before I went into the surgery, so about half an hour.
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Half an hour after what? After the incident. Half an hour after the incident or half an hour after you got to the hospital? After the incident. And then did you talk to law enforcement subsequent times at the hospital again? Yes. In preparation for the court here today, did you have an opportunity to review any of the statements or the information that you had provided to law enforcement? Yes.
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And did you know anything about that information that you provided to law enforcement that was consistent or inconsistent with what you said today? Yes, they were inconsistent. Were they substantially inconsistent? No. Do you recall some of the inconsistencies? No, I do not.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
But certain wordings and certain sayings were different than other statements.
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The information that you provided to the jury today, is that the information that you remember to the best of your ability? Yes. And do you recall emotionally what you were like when you got to the hospital? I was scared, in pain, still terrified. Do you remember what shoes you were wearing when you came to the residence that day? No, I do not.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you remember if you took your shoes off prior to going into the house? Yes, I did. You know where? On the porch leading to the door. Was that typical? Yes. Was it a no-shoes house generally? Yes. Okay. I'm going to show you just two last photographs, one B-17. I asked you to take a look at that photograph on B-17. There's a shoe, appears to be a shoe, in that photograph.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And are you from the Green Bay area originally? No. Where are you from? Milwaukee. And do you live in that area now? Yes. At some point in time you were residing up in the Green Bay area, is that right? Yes. Can you tell us how that came about? An ex of mine. And that's not Sabrina? No. At some point in time did you meet a person by the name of Sabrina Teague? Yes, I did.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you remember that day? Yes. Were you living in the 1368 Riverdale Drive residence at that time? Yes. Had you moved out or lived in a different residence at all kind of immediately prior to that? Yes, I did. Where were you living immediately kind of prior to that? What's the timeframe? With a friend and for a couple months. So is that in like the spring of 2016?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
To the best of your recollection, is that your shoe? No. Do you know if that was Sabrina's shoe? Did you ever see her wearing that shoe? I do not think so. I'm just going to show you one B-18 that's close up of that same shoe. Does that change your opinion at all, whether that was yours or Sabrina's? No. Just a brief follow-up, Joel. Do you recall...
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you able to have any specific recollection of where Mr. Kayers stabbed Sabrina? No, I believe all over. Did you see him stab him multiple times? Yes. Joel, I want to ask you one last question. It's probably a little bit uncomfortable, but have you ever been convicted of a crime before? Yes. How many times? Once. All right. I have no further questions at this time.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. Mr. Cotton?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Good morning, sir.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You were asked questions by the prosecutor about inconsistent statements. Do you remember that? Yes. And you said that your statements were inconsistent. Is that what you said? Yes. Meaning that you gave three different statements to the police. Is that what you said? Yes. And then we have a fourth statement here in court, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And actually more statements were made because you prepared with the district attorney's office for trial, right? Yes. In other words, you sat down with them and discussed what you would testify to. Yes. Okay. And you've talked to others about this over time as the years have gone by. Fair to say? Yes. Okay. People have wanted to know what happened, and you've shared what's happened, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Now, regarding the inconsistent statements, were you – I just want to explore that a little bit further. I'm holding up here something that – does this look familiar? Can you see from where you're sitting?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What am I holding? What do I appear to be holding up?
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That is the first statement.
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Your first statement.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Meaning... Okay. Okay.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, that is my first statement.
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Yes. Yes. Yes. Now, you had a chance to look at this statement again when you were preparing for trial with the district attorney's office, fair to say? Yes. And that's when you noticed inconsistencies, right? Yes. Because you were rereading this and also thinking back on what you remember, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And it's fair to say four years, a little bit more than four years have gone by since the incident, right? Yes. Now, this statement was produced while you were at St. Vincent's Hospital, right? Yes. And when you had those wounds that we had seen in the pictures, right? Yes. So, and it's only one page, right? Yes. I'd like to talk to you about some of the inconsistencies, okay?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
First of all, you've testified today about what happened, right? Yes. Yes. And it's your version that Jacob was responsible for this, right? Yes. And we agree you came in through the garage. At least that's your testimony. You came in through the garage, right? Yes. And if we orient ourselves with the pictures, I believe you'd come into the kitchen. Would that be fair to say? Yes. Okay.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And today you testified that... Sabrina walked, your recollection is that Sabrina walked down to the bathroom and noticed her mother, right? Yes. And in your written statement, you had indicated me and Sabrina entered the bathroom. Would you agree with that?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I would just say if he doesn't, we'll refresh his recollection as we ordinarily would. I'm asking if he recalls. In your written statement, you said, when me and Sabrina entered the bathroom, we saw blood everywhere. Would you agree that you made that written statement? Yes, I do. And today you've testified that Sabrina was the one who entered the bathroom, not you. Fair to say? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, that would be before winter 2015. Oh, okay, so this is before you moved into the residence entirely. Yes. And then once you moved into 1368, you were living there essentially continuously until June 7th of 2016? Yes. On June 7th of 2016, do you recall what time you left the house that day? I believe it was 12 or 1 p.m., And where were you headed at that time? Work.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So that's one inconsistency, right? Yes. Okay. And then in your written statement, you stated that Quote, Jake started attacking me with the knife. I fell to the floor. You remember that? Yes. And today you've testified that Sabrina was the first one who was attacked by Jake. Would you agree with that? Yes. That's another inconsistency, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And after Jake attacked in your written statement, you say that Sabrina was attacked second, right? Yes. Yes. Okay, but the way you're remembering it today is that Sabrina was attacked first and then you were attacked second. Yes. I want to try to understand a little bit more clearly what happened in this, or what you say happened.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You have been dating Sabrina since at least, I think, December-ish of 2015, right? Yes. And the two of you met however you met, and you moved into her house fairly quickly, right? Yes. Is that because you had no place else to live, or you just immediately had a very close relationship? We had a close relationship.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the bedroom we saw the pictures of downstairs was where the two of you would reside, right? Yes. And you would agree that Sabrina's mother, he's son, did not want you living in the house. Would you agree with that? No. You don't agree with that? No. Well, she was upset that you were, when you moved into the house, wasn't she? No, she was not. Was she happy that you moved into the house?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She was indifferent. But you weren't working when you moved in, right? No. Meaning, correct, you didn't have a job when you first moved in, right? Yes. And no source of income when you moved into the house, right? Yes. Sabrina was working. She was at Perkins, right? Yes. So you're not working. Sabrina is working.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you're living in the house. Yes. And so to the extent you're eating and having shelter, that's because it's being provided to you within that home, right? Yes. But it's your testimony that he-son, or Sonny as we'll call her, was indifferent to that? Yes. Okay. You didn't have any conflict with her about moving in and eating their food and living off them? No.
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Is it your testimony that Sonny liked you? Yes. Okay. Now, you did have a knife on you, right? Yes. Why did you carry a knife with you? I used them at work. You worked at Burger King? Yes. Okay. And we saw a picture of that knife. Looks like a black folding knife, fair to say? Yes. Is that a work-issued knife?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you would carry that at Burger King while you worked? Yes. And then you would carry it in your pocket after you left Burger King? Yes. What was your job at Burger King? I did everything. Cook burgers?
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Cook burgers, take orders, make the food, take out the garbage.
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And which of those jobs did you require the knife for? Breaking down boxes. Okay, so if you had to break down a box, you had a knife for that? Yeah. And would you agree that this knife has a blade, right? We can't see it in the picture, but there would be a blade in there, right? Yes. And would you agree you also carry that knife with you for protection if you need it?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. You didn't just get the knife for purposes of breaking down boxes at Burger King, right? Yeah. Right? The knife has other purposes if you need it, right? Yes. If someone attacks you, you have a knife available to repel the attack.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Now, in the six months or so that you had been at this house, you never once saw Jake there, right? No, I did not. And it would be completely unexpected to see Jake in the house that night, right? Yes. There's no reason for him to be there. Yes. No conflict had happened earlier that day that would cause him to be there?
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Sabrina picked you up from work and you guys went to Walmart to get some food, right? Yes. So in terms of... In terms of what you were doing, it was as uneventful of an evening as you can imagine, right? Yes. Similarly, there had been no conflict between Jacob and Sonny.
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So you weren't aware of any conflict between the two of them where there was bad blood between him and Sonny?
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No, there was none.
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And again, during the six or seven months, you never once saw Jacob at house, right? Until you say the night of the stabbing. Correct. Now... And just so we're clear, you did have a cell phone at that time, right? Yes. And the police took that cell phone and did whatever they did with it, right? Yes. In fact, you gave permission for them to analyze it if they wanted, right? Yes. Okay.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that is the Burger King? Yes. Where was that Burger King located? In Howard. And so when you went to work, 12 or 1, how long were you supposed to work that day? I believe I was supposed to be there until 9 or 10. How did you get to work?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you had had that phone for maybe a month or so, or a month or two months before this incident, would that be fair to say? Yes. And that phone would contain text messages, phone call history, things like that? Yes. And you also had a Facebook account, right? Yes. Would you agree with me that in your phone, you would access YouTube from your phone? Yes.
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Would you agree with me that the same day of this incident, you searched on YouTube? It's up to you. We can approach first, and if you want to excuse the jury, we can. All right.
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So I think for purposes of the record, there's a relevance objection. I'm going to overrule the objection.
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My question for you was whether you were able to access YouTube also from your phone, right? Yes. And you would do that periodically? Yes. And the same day of this stabbing, you had searched the phrase famous last words. Would you agree with that? Yes. In fact, that was the last thing you searched right before the stabbing? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you were asked about that by the district attorney's office in preparation for this trial, weren't you? Yes. And you told them that it's a music video that you like. Yes. Called Famous Last Words. Yes, it is a musical group. What's the video about?
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I don't recall.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Wait for a moment, sir.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He said he doesn't recall.
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Well, I'm just going to sustain the objection, but is there any additional questions you intend to ask on that issue? No.
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Then I don't think I need to worry about the answer. It's already in the record. All right.
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Now, you were... So we've already talked about Exhibit 2, which is your written statement, right? Yes. Which was written by law enforcement because you weren't in a position to write this, right? Yes. And you were also interviewed... On video, you remember when they filmed you and interviewed you? I do not. Are you aware as you sit here today that you were video filmed as you made a statement?
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Yes. You know that, right? Yes. And you know that because the state and the prosecutors have shown you your video to show you what you said, right? Or is that not accurate? That is not accurate. Okay. How do you know you were filmed? How do you know you were filmed? Did somebody provide you a copy of your tape?
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No, but I was informed. By who? I believe Lieutenant Levin Lennon.
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Sabrina drove me.
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Okay. And he's here in court at the end of the prosecutor's table with the shaved head, right? Yes. Okay. Did you watch that tape with him in preparation for your testimony? No. No. No? He just told you that there was one, right? Yes. Okay. So you talked about an event at Walmart where you had run into Jacob at some point before this, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have a car at that time? No. Was it typical for Sabrina to bring you to and from work? Yes. And you think you were supposed to work until about 9 p.m. that night? Yes. Did you end up working until 9 p.m.? No, I was released early. Is that typical that you would occasionally get released early? No. Do you know what the reason was on that particular day? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
But Sabrina never told you that Jacob would want to hurt her, right?
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No, she did not.
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She never said Jacob was dangerous? No.
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No, I don't believe so.
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That's something you would have remembered if she had told you that, right? Yes. So she never says he's dangerous, never says he'd want to hurt her, but you did have conversations about him because you saw him at Walmart, right? Yes. And that was about a month or so before the incident? Yes. During this stabbing event, it's your testimony that Jacob... is the one who did this, right?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's your testimony? Yes. And that he didn't say anything before or after the attack, right? Yes. No words?
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No words at all.
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And I thought, correct me if I'm wrong, I thought that you described how his face looked. Didn't they ask you how his face looked?
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And you said plain, right? Yes. Would another word for that be expressionless? Yes. Meaning... didn't look angry, you couldn't get any read out of it, could you? Correct. Nor are there any words being said, so that doesn't help you at all either, right? Correct. And let's go with what you remember today in your testimony, is that the initial confrontation happens in the kitchen area, right? Yes.
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Which it's either Sabrina first or you first, depending on the written statement or today's testimony, right? Right. Yes. But eventually, all three of you make it to the garage, right? Yes. And you first, right? You were the first one to go in the garage. Yes. And it's your testimony. Jacob just jumped out of the laundry room unexpectedly and started attacking Sabrina, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You got into the garage. Yes. And then... Didn't keep running outside the home, right? Correct. Just stayed in the garage until Sabrina and Jake came out the door. Yes. And I'm trying to understand how it unfolded. You're watching as the two of them are struggling coming down those steps, right? Yes. And that's when you grabbed that shovel that we saw and you hit Jacob in the head with the shovel.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's your testimony? Yes. And in fact... Jacob fell to the ground, isn't that true? Yes. And Sabrina got on top of him? I don't believe so. So Jacob's on the ground and Sabrina is standing? I believe she was on the ground as well. And it's your testimony that you've, at this point, already been stabbed through the arm, right? Yes. And which arm were you stabbed in? This one. Okay. So then...
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You run into the kitchen and you lock Sabrina and Jacob in the garage?
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No. I did not lock the door.
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Okay. You ran in and just closed the door?
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And left them out there? Yes. Why, if you made it to the garage, why didn't you just keep running out of the house? I don't recall. You would have had to have run under this version... Jacob and Sabrina come down those stops. They're fighting right there in front of the stairs. You would have had to have run right past them to go back through the door into the kitchen. Is that correct?
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And that's what you believe you did? Yes. And in fact, the garage door was even open at that time, wasn't it? I do not believe it was. No. You go back inside, it's your testimony you don't lock that door, but you run down the hallway and you go into Heason's bedroom, right? Yes. And you lock that door? Yes. And then you lock the bathroom door also? Yes.
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Did you have plans after work that night?
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So now you've barricaded yourself behind two more locked doors, right? Yes. Now... You've identified Mr. Kerr here in court today when we all removed our masks, right? Yes. And you were close enough, you say, to see his face. You said he did the stabbing, right? Yes. You told the police that the person had shoulder-length hair. Do you agree with that? Yes.
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Yes, we were going to have a friend come over and watch some TV and movies.
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And that the person was not wearing any mask at all, right? Yes. Okay. No attempt to conceal one's face whatsoever? Correct. And no facial hair, right? Correct. No, he had facial hair. Okay, do you remember facial hair? Yes. Were you present in court when your 911 call was played? No, I was not. Have you had a chance to listen to your 911 call prior to your testimony? Yes.
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You would agree that in the 911 call, you were asked whether there was any facial hair and you said, not that I saw? I do not recall. And you don't remember what you said in that call, right? No. What do you mean? About facial hair. You don't recall what you said? No. But that 911 call is you trying to describe everything you're seeing at the time, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you say we, you mean you and Sabrina? Yes. Do you know what either Sabrina and Sonny's plans were for that day? No, I do not. Was Sabrina working at that time? I believe so. Where was she working? Perkins. Do you know if Sonny had a job? I do not think so. So what time did you actually get off of work that day? I believe 7.30. And how did you leave work that day? Sabrina picked me up.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is it your testimony that you believe you were stabbed in the kitchen area? That's where you remember being stabbed? Yes. Before you went into the garage area, right? Yes. And did you ever... You had your knife in your pocket this whole time, right? Yes. And it's your testimony you never utilized that knife in any way, right? Correct. Why didn't you pull the knife out to fend off the perpetrator?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I didn't think about it. When you were... One minute, please, Your Honor. I want to just ask a few more questions, touch on a couple other things with you, sir. Going back to Sonny, the mother, liking you... Are you aware that Sabrina had a sister, Sarah May? Yes. And did you have contact and interaction with Sarah May?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Not that I can recall.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you aware of the mother's boyfriend, Raymond? Is that somebody you were familiar with? Yes. Sonny had a boyfriend named Raymond, right? Yes. And were you... Were you aware of anything Sonny had said to Raymond about not liking you?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Going to the interview you did with the police at the hospital, you would agree that your written statement is a much shorter version than what was discussed over the 30 minutes or so that you talked to the officers, right? Yes. In other words, you were getting medical treatment and they were present talking to you during that time, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They were trying to understand what you believe happened, what you saw in the house, right? That was the whole point of the questioning? Yes. And do you remember an officer named Officer Ehrenstein? Is that somebody that you're familiar with? I do not recall, no. Do you know the names of the officers who were interviewing you? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Would you agree that you told the officers that the last time you saw Sabrina, she was in the garage on top of Jacob holding him down? Do you remember telling the officers that? No, I do not. As you sit here today, it's your recollection that she wasn't holding him down, he was just down on the ground, and that's when you ran from the garage? Correct. If he had a shovel...
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
and you had knocked him down to the ground, why would you just run into the house and not keep hitting the person? I don't know. That's all. Thank you.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Any redirects?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You were asked about the garage door and whether that garage door was open or closed. When you recall going out to the garage to get the shovel, do you believe the garage door was open or closed at that point? Closed. Do you recall actually closing it or someone closing the garage door when you came in? Yes. And do you know who did that? I believe I pushed the button to close it.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the button to open and close the door, where is that located? Right next to the door to the kitchen from the garage. Did you think about opening that door and running out before you went and grabbed the shovel? No, I did not. What was your purpose in grabbing the shovel? To fight.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And this was sort of described by defense as, well, you've got the shovel and you're standing over there in the corner just watching them struggle. I mean, was this a long period of time that you're standing there with the shovel before they come out the door? No. Is it fair to say that, in fact, all of this is happening very quickly? Yes. Is it a chaotic scene? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you do recall grabbing the shovel on the side of the garage, and then about how quickly after you went and grabbed the shovel, did Jacob and Sabrina come out of the garage? I'd say about five or ten seconds. So fairly quickly, they come right out? Yes. And then likewise, the physical struggle, the you striking Jacob and then running back in the house, does that happen fairly quickly? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It's just a general question. Are there things you would have done differently if you could do this all over again and you had the time to reason your way through how to respond to this attack? Absolutely. It's fair to say at that time this was just chaos and you just did what was on instinct? Yes. Again, Mr. Cotton showed you a brief written statement. It was one page, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what car was Sabrina driving? Her vehicle. And what kind of car was that, do you remember? Chevy Cobalt. I'm going to direct your attention back to Exhibit 1B1. Do you see that vehicle in the photograph? Yes. There's only one vehicle in the photograph, is that fair to say? Yes. So it's the vehicle parked in the driveway? Yes. Where did you go after Sabrina picked you up from work?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is it fair to say that everything that happened that night cannot really fairly be encapsulated in one page? Correct. Correct. And he talked to you about some of the inconsistencies, right? He talked to you about who got stabbed first, whether both of you went over to the bathroom to see his son in the bathroom.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In your mind, is the big picture, the vast majority of what happened, has that been relatively consistent throughout this? Yes. Any questions, Your Honor? I don't know that I let him. I asked if it was, and he could say yes or no.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't think that was a leading question. I'm going to overrule the objection.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you know if in every one of your statements you said Mr. K.R. jumped out of the laundry room and attacked you? I believe so, yes. The weapon that Mr. K.R. used, do you know if that was consistent in all of your statements? Yes, I believe so. Can you tell us a little bit about that knife? Do you remember the knife itself? Yes, I believe it was a chef's knife.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In terms of the size of the knife, do you remember any of the size of the knife? About that big. Are you familiar with a standard kitchen knife set? Yes. Would this be one of the small knives or one of the large knives? One of the large knives. As it compares to your folding knife, was it bigger or smaller?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Much bigger.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you recall if in every one of your statements you remember that you struck Mr. K with a shovel? Yes. Do you recall if in every one of your statements that... happened in the garage? Yes. Is it possible that in one of the statements that wasn't actually consistent? I do not believe so. As you sit here today, where did that contact take place? In the garage.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In every one of your statements, do you describe Mr. Kerr as the person who did this? Yes. Is there any doubt in your mind that Mr. Kerr is the person who stabbed you and Sabrina? No. And you saw him stab Sabrina with your own eyes? Correct. Multiple times? Correct.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Clearly you saw him stab yourself? Yes. Again, these are leading questions I'm objecting because he's giving the answer.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Can you rephrase the question?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'll withdraw that question. At any point in time, did you see anyone else in the house other than Mr. Kher, Sabrina, and Issa? No. And to be clear, I'm talking about on the evening of June 7th, 2016. Correct. Before law enforcement arrived. Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No further questions, right?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Any requests?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Are you aware that Sabrina's body was eventually found next to the house? Are you aware of that? Yes. Outside of the garage, right? Yes. So in terms of the garage doors, it must have been open for Sabrina to get out of the garage, right?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. Okay. That's all. Do you know when that garage door became open? I do not know. It's your testimony here today that the garage door was... Do you recall when you were in the garage having contact with Mr. K or the shovel, do you believe it was open or closed? Closed. Nothing further.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Chankita is going to start off by asking you what is your current occupation?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I am a forensic anthropologist as my occupation. I am currently the chief medical examiner of Dane, Rock, Brown, Door in Oconto counties of Wisconsin.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranquita, I'm going to go back and ask you some questions then. I'm at the June 9th, 2016, during the morning hours. Did you have an opportunity to perform an autopsy on Sabrina Teague? Yes, I did. Approximate time of the autopsy, it looks like 8.46 AM. I believe that's when we started. When you do an autopsy, do you have a certain
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
a protocol, a way you like to go through it every time so you're consistent? I do. And... Could you tell the jury, is there a certain way that you perform Sabrina Teague's exam? For example, do you first look at the external part of the body and then move to internal? How kind of can you just tell them in general the procedure you used before we go into specifics?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course, very generally. We generally begin with an examination of the external aspect of the body within the body bag or the container to document whatever writing or whatever identification is present on the outside of the bag to make sure that the security seal that is sealing the bag is intact. and to make sure that any writing is identified and documented.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The bag is opened, and then we begin the external examination of the body. In forensic pathology, the external examination of the body is just as critical as the internal portion of the body. I'm looking at the external aspect of the body to document any injuries, any features of the body, any trauma. I'm also photographing, measuring, and documenting with scale. I collect external evidences
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I do swabs for DNA. I collect specimens for toxicology. I try to see if there's any kind of residue that might give me an indicator of who may have committed this or who may have done this. We may also take x-rays as well at this point, especially if there's a kind of penetrating injury.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Once all that is done, I then proceed to the internal portion of the autopsy examination, which is what most people think about when they think about an autopsy. The internal portion of an autopsy examination is the surgical evaluation of the organ systems of the body to see what has been injured and what disease processes may be present.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After you went through step by step the autopsy of Sabrina Teague, do you eventually compile all the information you received, notes and your observations and put it into a report?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, I do. The report is composed of not only the summary of the findings, but also the diagrams and the photographs that are created as, that accompany the report. Okay.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did I ask the court's continuing permission to approach during his testimony?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, you may.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you for your documents labeled exhibit number 10. You just peruse the document as you're doing, Doctor, and then I have a couple questions for you. Exhibit number 10, could you indicate to the jury what is exhibit 10?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Exhibit number 10 is a copy of the report that was generated by our office on the death of Sabrina Teague. It includes the autopsy report, the notes that were generated during the process of making the report, the diagrams from the report, the toxicology report, about the people in attendance, and those sorts of documents.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what happened after you left Walmart? We went home. And did you go anywhere else in between, from leaving work, Walmart, and then home? No. And do you know about what time you got back to 1368 Riverdale Drive? About 7.50. Eight. Fifty or eight? Yes. When you arrived home, where did she park the car? In the driveway, right in front of the garage door.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranchitti, I'd like to then just begin to go through some of the items noted in your report of the autopsy of Sabrina Teague. What I'd like to do is to Start from the beginning. I'd like to go through the final diagnosis. It's listed on pages 1 and 2 of the autopsy report. And just chronologically go through this.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm going to start then by looking at the first one listed on your report, stab wounds. First, stab wounds, I want you to list the stab wounds you've noted to the head of Sabrina Teague.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I noted two stab wounds to the head of Sabrina Teague. The first was located on the left cheek. This went deeply into the left cheek. It went through the skin, soft tissues, and muscles of the left cheek. It hit the left parotid gland, which is one of the salivary glands in the cheek, and then went into the mouth and struck her tongue.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And could you... indicate the other stab wound to the head.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's correct. There was another stab wound to the chin. This went into the skin and soft tissues of the chin and struck the mandible or the jaw.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranchito, what I'm showing you on the screen has been marked 1M, number 1, as far as exhibit. A particular photograph that's up on the screen, would you indicate, describe what it is, Dr.?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When I perform an autopsy, I try to document, in as many different ways as I can, the features that I'm seeing of the body, in order to convey to the reader what I'm seeing both in diagram form, in measurements, but also in photographs. In this case, this is an overhead view of the decedent Sabrina Antique.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She has a number of sharp force injuries, which are depicted in this photograph, and I've placed a small label next to each of the injuries to help categorize them or list them in sequence as we describe them. In this case... If I may? Yes. The stab wound that we first described, or stab wound A, is located on her left cheek.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is the stab wound that went through the left cheek, went through the left parotid gland, and went into her tongue. Stab wound B, the next one going down, is located on her chin. This went through the skin, the soft tissues, and hit the mandible, or the jaw, of Sabrina Teague.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, and I'd like to continue in your final diagnosis of injuries to Sabrina Teague, going through the injuries to her torso.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As we go down to the neck stab wound, there was a stab wound of the base of the anterior neck. This was stab wound C. This was a superficial stab wound. It went into the skin, the soft tissues, but it didn't go very deeply into the chest cavity. Stab wound D. Actually, I believe this was C. I believe this is stab wound D. This one went into the chest just below the left clavicle.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is also a superficial stab wound. Okay. Superficial, yeah, stab wound E is going into the upper aspect of the right side of the chest below the right clavicle. And this was a very deep stab wound. The stab wound went through the right ribs, two and three, on the right side. The stab wound also went through the right lung.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The stab wound hit the pericardial sac, which is a membrane sac that surrounds the heart. And the stab wound hit the aorta, which is the largest artery in the body. This was a fairly deep and significant stab wound. The next stab wound going down is directly overlying the sternum. This baboon hits the sternum, the left rib number four. It hits the pericardial sac.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Again, that's the sac that surrounds and protects the heart. And then it hit the heart as well, striking the decedent in the right ventricle. This was also a very deep, very life-threatening stab wound. We had a stab wound. The last stab wound in the front of the body is stab wound G. This entered the midline of the upper aspect of the abdomen. This stab wound hit the decedent's diaphragm.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This hit the left lobe of her liver, and it hits the omentum, which is a structure which protects and covers the intestinal tract.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I can then show you another photograph, Doctor, and it's 1M2. It would be a little easier, I think, to see C and D, so I apologize for that.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This stab wound is a close-up of the area of the decedent's head and neck. You can see very nicely stab wound A, stab wound B, stab wound C, E, E, and F. Again, stab wounds C and D are very superficial. Stab wound A goes through the cheek into the mouth. Stab wound B hits your jaw. Stab wound E goes into the torso, hits ribs, hits the lung, hits the pericardial sac and the aorta.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So is it consistent with the photograph that's being displayed that we previously addressed? Yes. Is that typically where Sabrina would park? Yes. Did Sonny have a vehicle? Yes. What kind of vehicle was that? A Chevy HHR. When you arrived home, was that vehicle at the residence? Yes. Where was it? In the garage. Do you know which stall of those three stalls? The middle stall.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Stab wound F goes through the sternum, through the ribs, through the pericardial sac, and into the heart.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm going to continue with going through different areas on her body. I'm going to go to stab wounds on the back area. So I'm going to show the next picture, which is 1M3.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Stab wound H, the higher up one, is described as a stab wound on the left side of the upper aspect of the back. This stab wound goes to the skin, soft tissues, and muscle, but doesn't penetrate into the chest cavity. Stab wound I also goes through the skin, soft tissues, and muscle of the right side of the middle aspect of the back.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So if you divide that back down the midline, and you divide in upper, middle, and lower back, this is the right side of the middle aspect of the back. This is the left side of the upper aspect of the back. So stab wound I goes through the skin, soft tissues, and muscle, but doesn't penetrate into the chest cavity.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Stab wound J is described as a stab wound of the left side of the lower aspect of the back. This is a fairly deep stab wound. This goes through the thick skin, soft tissues, and muscle. This goes through the left side of the diaphragm, and this stab wound injures the left kidney.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Because we're on this particular photograph, doctor, this 1M3, and of course we can see another injury to Ms. Teague's left side of her neck. Since the photo's up there, can we talk a little bit about that particular injury?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course. This is an incised wound here on the posterior and lateral aspect of Sabrina Teague's neck. This is cutting into the underlying subcutaneous soft tissue. So it's very long on the skin surface, but it's just going to the level of the subcutaneous fat. This is an incised wound, or a cut, into the back and side of Sabrina Teague's neck.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe, Dr. Tranquilla, that we've covered on your final diagnosis all the different stab wounds listed to the head and torso, the different injuries you noted to Sabrina Teague. I'd like to kind of go to page two of your complete report in exhibit 10, where you start to list some incised wounds. I know you described what an incised wound is, longer on the surface rather than deeper.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Could we list some of those for the jury that you observed on Sabrina T?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course. So again, we described incised wounds as longer on the skin surface and they are deep into the body. Another way to think about them as cuts as opposed to stabs. Sabrina Teague had about five incised wounds. And the first was on the right side of the underside of her chin.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And this was a superficial cut, but it was an evidence of sharp force trauma being applied, or an object with a sharp edge being applied to the right side of the underside of her chin. We showed one of the other ones earlier as well, the incised wound on the back and left side of Sabrina Teague's neck. This was a long incised wound or long cut that just penetrated to the level of the soft tissue.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition, Sabrina Teague had an incised wound. on the dorsal surface of her left forearm. She had a cut on the dorsal surface of the forearm from the elbow, the forearm we consider from the elbow to the wrist, and she had a cut on the dorsal surface of the forearm. Also, she had a cut on the volar or palmar aspect of the left thumb. That's A, B, C, and D. C and D are super
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you think that vehicle was in the middle stall when you arrived? Yes. Were there any other vehicles on scene that you observed? No. May I ask you if you can recall specifically how you entered the home that night? He went in through the garage and the side door to the garage. So you walked in the garage door, and then is there an entryway from the garage into the home? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We also have the incised wound, that superficial inside of the wound of the underside of the chin is depicted in that diagram as well. Also there are abrasions or scrapes or scratches of the left side of the seat's forehead and the chin also. Also the incised wound of the posterior aspect of the left side of the neck, which we saw earlier in the other photograph as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
These are diagrams of the decedent's hands, both the dorsal or knuckle side and the palmar sides as well, both the left and the right hands. The decedent had an abrasion on the dorsal aspect of the proximal phalange of the right index finger. This is the incised wound on the palmar aspect of the thumb of the left hand, or cut on the palmar aspect of the thumb of the left hand.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition, shed a small hematoma or blood blister on the palmar aspect of the ring finger of the left hand.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Again, continuing with your report, Exhibit 10, after you listed the incised wounds, you have a section that lists blunt force trauma, head, torso, and extremities. I'd like to see if we could just go through those injuries you observed on Sabrina Teague's body.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course, once again, blunt force trauma is trauma that is caused by impacting or being impacted by an object that doesn't have a sharp force, a sharp edge. In other words, a blunt surface. This can be as broad as anything from a fist, a foot, or a door, or a wall, or a tree. Basically, it's something that doesn't have a blunt force edge.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Sometimes these impacts can leave a pattern, but many times they don't. We try to categorize them in abrasions, superficial scrapes or scratches of the skin, contusions, where the skin is intact but we have bleeding underneath the skin surface, or a bruise, or lacerations. Laceration are tears or rips in the skin caused by the application of blood force.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In her case, she had abrasions and contusions, so scrapes and bruises. Starting with the head, We saw that she had a linear scrape or scratch on the upper aspect of the left side of the forehead. She also had another abrasion on the right side of the chin. And she had another abrasion on the underside of the chin as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Can you tell us how that happened? Meet me. And did you start a relationship with her? Yes. Do you know about what time, what year you began that relationship with Sabrina? December 2015. And how did your relationship progress with Sabrina?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
On the torso, she had an abrasion on the midline of the upper aspect of the back. So the upper back at the middle of the back. And she had two abrasions of the posterior aspect or back of the left hip. Now, these abrasions had a possible pattern. They were crescent-shaped, or like the shape of a crescent moon. These are very consistent or suggestive of fingernail scratches into the skin.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She had a small contusion, or that blood blister, of the palmar aspect of her left hand. I'm sorry, the palmar aspect of the left index finger, left wing finger. She had an abrasion or scratch on the dorsal aspect of the proximal phalange of the right ring finger. And then she had a number of abrasions on the left thigh, left leg, and left ankle.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then she had additional abrasions on the right thigh, right knee, right leg, and right foot.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Trinke, the only one I see we really didn't cover, and there's quite a few, are... Under the blunt force trauma section head, oh, there's one contusion. I apologize.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Could you please list that?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So in addition to the abrasions and the contusion described in the left hand, there was also another contusion on the left side of the frontal scalp. So the frontal scalp covers from just above the ear forward, and there was a contusion on the left side of the frontal scalp, or bruise.
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And that's the entryway that you took? Yes. Was that typical? Yes. Did you utilize the front door often? No. When you arrived through the garage, did you notice anything unusual upon entering the residence? Yes, there was a bottle of water spilled on the floor. Well, I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B2.
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Dr. Tranchita, after completing your autopsy of Sabrina Teague and putting together, starting to prepare your report, do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty it's a cause of death of Sabrina Teague?
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What is that?
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To a reasonable degree of medical certainty, I believe that the cause of death of Sabrina Teague is the stab wounds of the torso, as these penetrated deeply into the body, perforating her lung, her aorta, and her heart, her diaphragm, her liver. These were significant life-threatening injuries, causing collapse of her lung, significant internal hemorrhaging, and ultimately death.
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Now to my final question then. Based on a reasonable degree of medical certainty, do you have an opinion as to the manner of death for Sabrina Teague?
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What is that opinion, Doctor?
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To a reasonable degree of medical certainty, I believe that the manner of death for Sabrina Teague is homicide.
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Dr. Trinchita, on the same date that you completed Sabrina Teague's autopsy, did you have an opportunity to perform an autopsy in the body of his son Teague as well? Yes, I did. And on that date, June 9, 2016, do you believe it was in the afternoon hours that you completed the autopsy for Ms. Heesun Teague? Yes, I did.
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I'm going to show you, Doctor, I'd like to go through the same procedure that we did for Suprena Teague's autopsy for Heesun Teague. I'll show you what's been marked instead of number 11. through that document. Dr. Trinchini, did you have a chance to look through Exhibit 11?
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Yes, I did.
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Is that a copy of your autopsy report involving Isantig?
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Yes, it is.
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I'd like to go through again the same procedure. I'm going to begin on page 1, where it lists the final diagnosis involving the autopsy of Isantig. The very first category lists stab wounds, lists two of them. I'd like to start with those and go through injury by injury.
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Peace and Teague had a number of different modalities of injuries or types of injuries. The first they listed in the list of final diagnoses were her stab wounds. She had two stab wounds. The first was of her head. This struck the left temporal scalp. It went through the left temporal muscle or the muscle that sits on the left temporal scalp. And it went into the left temporal bone.
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It's another photograph, and I'm going to ask you to identify that photograph. That is the garage entrance. You'll notice on that garage entrance there appears to be quite a lot of chaos, blood evidence, things of that nature. Is that there when you arrived at the residence? Objection.
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It did not penetrate through the temporal bone, however. The second stab wound was of her torso. This stab wound struck her in her left breast. This went through the left fourth rib. This went through the pericardial sac, that fibrous sac that protects the heart. And then it went into the heart, stabbing her in the heart, specifically the right ventricle.
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And Dr. Trinkita, I'm going to take a couple steps back. Did you... Do the same protocol or procedure that you did with Sabrina Teague's autopsy with his son. By that, I mean going to an external exam after you opened up the bag where her body was located, and then also go to an internal exam as well.
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That is correct.
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Now, again, doctor, those are the two injuries you listed for stab wounds. The next section is Roman numeral number two. endless incised wounds to Hisantig. Is that correct? That is correct. Could we go through those and indicate to the jury the incised wounds that you located on Hisantig's body?
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Of course. So once again, incised wounds are cuts. They're sharp force injuries that are longer on the skin surface than deep into the body. Hisantig had five incised wounds or five cuts. The first was of her left ear. This incised wound amputated or cut off the superior aspect of her left ear or the upper part of her left ear. She had another incised wound or cut on the left side of the forehead.
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She had another incised wound or cut on the left cheek. And then she had another incised wound or cut on the right jawline.
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Doctor, I would like to... continue and just go through the different injuries before I start to show pictures because I think when I start to show the photographs, there's going to be a combination of the different injuries, whether they're incised wounds or stab wounds, kind of together in blunt force trauma.
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So I'm going to ask if we could just continue as in your report, the final diagnosis after incised wounds where it says compression of neck.
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Yes, sir. He, Santee, had injuries of the neck consistent with compression of the neck. I believe that there was both ligature, or using a cord, and manual compression of the neck, or using of the hands. A ligature was recovered from around Heeson Teague's neck, and there was a ligature furrow that was imprinted upon the skin of Heeson Teague's neck.
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In addition to these external injuries, this ligature furrow that was present on the neck There were also abrasions as well. But deeper into the neck structures, there were areas of muscular hemorrhage deep into the neck. This is very consistent with compression by fingertips or application of blunt force trauma to cause bruising and hemorrhage of the deep structures of the neck.
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So there was both ligature and manual strangulation of the neck. As a consequence of this, there were hemorrhages in the decedent's eyes, or petechial hemorrhages and vulvar hemorrhages.
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Can you rephrase the question? Okay.
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Essentially, when you apply pressure to the blood vessels in the neck, this causes the blood vessels in the eyes and the conjunctiva around the eyes to burst, causing hemorrhages in the soft tissues around the eyes.
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Dr. Tranchita, I'd like to see if you'd just define a couple of terms, a couple of words. Ligature and furrow.
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There appear to be a lot of stains on the floor. There's a shovel tipped over. There are stains on the wall. Did you observe those stains and the shovel on the floor when you first entered the residence? No. I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B3. Can you identify that photograph? Yes, that is the kitchen and dining room. Of the residence at 1368? Yes.
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A ligature furrow, a ligature is a rope or cord. You want to think of a ligature as, from the Latin word ligare, something to tie. So anything that is a cord or a rope can be a ligature. A furrow is an indentation or impression or crushing injury of the neck such that a furrow is left behind in the skin after you remove the ligature.
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The next section in your final diagnosis lists blunt force trauma of the head, torso, and extremities. I'd like to see if we can go through those injuries one by one.
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Sabrina, I'm sorry, Heeson Teague had abrasions. contusions and lacerations of her head, torso, and extremities, very many of them. In addition, many of these were patterned injuries. In other words, impacts to the tissues of the body that left an imprint behind that we could describe to give some indication as to what instrument may have caused these injuries.
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In addition to these external injuries, she had diffuse subgalial hemorrhage of her head. The galia is the soft tissue that sits on your head, under your scalp, but over your skull. This was diffusely hemorrhagic. In other words, it was all full of blood. She had subarachnoid hemorrhage over the brain. The surface of the brain is called the arachnoid membrane.
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When the brain is injured, it can bleed. And this is called subarachnoid hemorrhage. So there was hemorrhage all over the surface of the brain on this membrane that surrounds and protects the brain. In addition, there was injury to the brain surface itself, the brain itself, not just the membrane covering the brain, but there were contusions of the cerebral surface.
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or cerebral contusions, contusions of the brain. There were lacerations and contusions, in other words, tears and bruising of the oral mucosa, or the inner aspects of both lips, indicative of blows of the lips. She had a number of fractures, including the frontal bone, including the left parietal bone, the nasal bones, and the mandible, or jaw. She had fractures of the sternum.
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She had fractures of multiple ribs on both sides. She had a fracture of the cervical spine, or the neck was fractured. She had a fracture of the left radius bone, so one of the bones in her forearm. She had fractures of bones in her metacarpal bones, or the bones of the hands, of the left and right hands.
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And she had fractures of the phalangeal bones, or the first section of each finger, of the left ring finger, left thumb, and right little finger. She also had a subbundle hematoma, or bleeding underneath the toenail, of the left third toe.
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One of the items listed, it says in item H, hemoaspiration. What does that term mean?
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Hemoaspiration comes from hemo for blood and aspiration, aspirating or inhaling. Essentially, as a result of all these injuries to her head, she was bleeding into her airway, bleeding into the nose, bleeding to the sinuses, bleeding into the mouth. And she was inhaling this blood, so the blood was going into her airway.
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So she was essentially aspirating or drowning in her own blood.
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This is a document, an anatomical document diagram of the anterior and posterior surfaces of the female bodies. is that the majority of injuries are going to be depicted in another diagram, just because there are so many injuries in the head that I'm unable to put them all in the sense of this diagram.
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However, in this diagram, I'm still able to show the two stab wounds, which are the first injuries that we described. The stab wound of the left pearl scalp, and this is located just behind the left ear. This is the one that's going through the ribs, through the pericardial sac, and into the heart.
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In addition, in the remainder of the body and extremity diagrams, again, I put circles around the hands just to depict that there are so many injuries of the hands that I'm unable to include them in this diagram just for size and space. But elsewhere, I'm trying to show the injuries that are present on the torso, the injuries that are present on the arms.
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bilateral upper extremities, and the injuries that are present in bilateral lower extremities as well.
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Dr. Tranchita, when you go to your report, starting on page 6 of exhibit 11, It goes through, there's a lot of them, the abrasions from the head and neck. I wonder if you could just maybe list, doctor, the number of abrasions to the head or neck of He-San Teague that were observed.
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And there's a door in the back in the middle of that. Can you identify what that door is? That leads to the laundry room. And then there's a door to the right of that. What is that door? That is the garage door. And is that the door that you entered when you came into the house that evening on June 7th? Yes. Do you recall if the door to the laundry room was open or closed when you arrived? Closed.
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There are almost two pages of injuries of the head and neck of He-San Teague. There are at least 14 separate abrasions. There are 14 separate contusions. There are at least 29 separate lacerations. Then we go into the internal injuries of his fatigue.
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Dr. Tranchito, there are some places in your report, for example, on page 6, I'm going to pick one here, Under blunt force trauma, under head and neck, you'll have like number three, you'll say crescentic abrasion. And I think you told the jury earlier, crescentic means like a crescent moon. Correct.
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What did you indicate that that can help you determine when there's an injury like an abrasion that's crescentic?
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When we examine injuries, as a forensic pathologist, I'm trying to determine if there's any patterns or features of the injuries that can help investigators possibly identify a weapon that could be at the scene or recovered subsequently that might match the pattern of the injury that's created.
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So a crescent-shaped injury is often very helpful because it indicates an object with some sort of rounded edge or a surface with some sort of rounded edge. In this case, there were a number of injuries that were present that had this crescentic pattern or circular pattern of the body.
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So I was able to give the investigators, you may want to look for an object or an instrument that has a rounded or crescent-shaped edge.
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Doctor, I'd like to continue in your report to page 8, where you again discuss the torso. And I'm wondering if you could just list the number of abrasions to His Antiques' torso.
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There were eight separate abrasions of His Antiques' torso. Again, many of these had patterned appearances, which I was able to relay to the investigators.
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The same crescentic pattern?
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Correct. And some had a more circular appearance, indicating an entire circular surface.
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Contusions to the torso? Approximately how many can you see in your report to his body?
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There were at least 16 separate contusions or bruises to the torso.
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It does list in your report the different fractures of the ribs, but I think you already discussed those earlier. On page 9, at the very bottom, it says left upper extremity. Left upper extremity, is that just the left arm?
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Absolutely. Going from the left shoulder to the left hand. Entire left upper extremity.
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Would you indicate on Heeson Teague's body, on her left upper extremity, approximate number of abrasions?
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She had seven separate abrasions on her left upper extremity.
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And then contusions?
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Contusions, there were... four separate contusions. However, one of them I want to emphasize is fairly extensive. It involves the entire posterior aspect of the left elbow, the dorsal aspect of the left arm, the left wrist, the left hand, and the left fingers. So it's not just one focal bruise. The entire area is diffusely bruised.
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And Dr. Tranchito, why do you describe that one as significant? Just because of the area damage, the large area?
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Correct. By the numbers, I don't want to convey. I think when most people think of a bruise, you tend to think of a small focus of bruising. By full bruising, I just mean number, not size. This bruise that was confluent or diffusely covering the left forearm, left elbow, left hand is one very large bruise.
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And if we continue with the left upper extremity, the number of lacerations to the upper extremity or arm?
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What kind of door is the door to the laundry room? Sliding door. Is it typical for that door to be closed? No. Did you notice it when you initially came in the residence that it was closed? No. You'll also see some staining on the floor and what appears to be some disruption throughout the kitchen. Do you know, was that staining present when you initially entered the residence that night? No.
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there were three separate lacerations or tears or rips of the skin of the left upper extremity.
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Again, next in your report, I think you've already covered the fractures. Could you list on the right upper extremity the number of contusions observed?
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There were eight separate contusions in the right upper extremity. Again, I want to emphasize that one of these contusions is a large contusion that covers the dorsal aspect of the right hand, the fingers of the right hand. It's a fairly extensive injury that involved the entirety of the right hand.
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In addition, two of the contusions are paired, or they are closely approximated together, and they are opposing arcs. These contusions were suggested in a pattern of possible bite mark of the arm.
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The number of lacerations to the right upper extremity?
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There were four separate lacerations or tears of the skin of the right upper extremity. Okay.
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The left lower extremity of the hyacinth is commonly referred to as the leg. What is that area? Am I correct, doctor?
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The left lower extremity extends from pretty much the hip down to the foot.
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The number of abrasions observed to hyacinth?
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There are three separate abrasions, including, again, a possible pattern abrasion. That's that imprint that allows me to give a possible indication of the instrument used.
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And that's, again, crescentic or kind of half-moon shape? Correct. This one was more circular. Circular. And then number of contusions on the left lower extremity? There were seven separate contusions on the left lower extremity. Let's move on finally to the right lower extremity of East Antique. A number of abrasions.
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There were two abrasions of the right lower extremity.
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And a number of contusions to that right lower extremity.
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There were four separate contusions of the right lower extremity.
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Page 2 of Incident 12, can you indicate what is depicted in the abrasion?
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Of course. As we said earlier, I reasonably put a circle around the body diagram's heads. The earlier diagram was just because there were so many injuries of the head that there just wasn't enough room to depict them individually. Depicted in this diagram are the stab wounds, abrasions, contusions, and lacerations of He-San Teague's head. The stab wounds are visible.
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Let's see if you can see them very well. Here's a depiction. I think I drew this manually. I apologize for my artwork. But this is the decedent's left ear. Stab wound A was located just behind the decedent's left ear. There are a number of incised wounds as well. The first one, of course, is the one that transects or cuts off the upper aspect of her left ear.
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There's also an incised wound of the left cheek. and incised wounds of the right cheek as well, and I believe there was also an incised wound of the left side of the forehead. Then, in areas with hash marks, these are all different areas of bruising or contusions. These are all bruises that have been inflicted upon this antique's head.
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Some of these have a pattern appearance, a circular appearance, or quiescentic sort of appearances. Then these jagged injuries, or lacerations, or tears, or rips in the deceased's tissues caused by application of workforce trauma. She also, in addition to the skin, she also had oral mucosal bruising and tears, or contusions and lacerations.
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And then as we described earlier, there's a number of skull fractures as well, which are depicted in another diagram also. This is the diagram. Page three. In page 3, can everyone hear me okay? Thank you. Underneath some of the lacerations, there were fractures present. And these are crescent-shaped fractures.
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Again, very helpful because they help me tell that this object that caused this must have a rounded edge. There were crescent-shaped divots or fractures of the frontal bone, or the bone of the front of the skull, and the left parietal bone, or the bone of the side of the skull. Now, these impacts were so hard that they also caused fractures of the base of the skull.
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So you did not see any staining on the floor when you first came in? No. Okay. So what happened then after you entered the residence? What do you mean? What happened? I think you said you observed some water spilled on the floor. So then what happened?
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When you remove the skull cap and you remove the brain, this is the base of the skull where the brain sits. The spinal cord goes in here. Underneath both of these plates are the eyes, so these are referred to as the orbital plates. These are thin bones, and both of these were broken as well from impacts.
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In addition, her nasal bone was broken, and she had a wedge-shaped fracture of her jaw right there. And these are the fractures depicted there. This is a side view from the left, depicting those fractures as well. There's another one there also. This is a lateral view of the decedent's body.
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Again, I'm using the lateral diagrams to help depict some of the injuries that may not have been easy to show on the front and side views. These are depicting bruises to the side of the decedent's body. And these are also depicting some of the crescent-shaped impacts. In these cases, these are abrasions and confusions that are crescent-shaped or like a half moon on the side of the decedent's body.
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So these are close-up diagrams of His Antiques hands, left and right, front and back. Again, the left hand contusion, or this hash mark, is going all the way up the forearm, all the way up to the elbow. This is extensive bruising going from the elbow to the hand. In addition, there are crescent-shaped lacerations of the dorsal aspects of our hand. This fingernail on the index finger is split.
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There is a laceration on the palm of her hand as well, and there are also broken bones in the decedent's left hand. On the right hand as well, we have bruising of the back and the front, or the dorsal aspect and the palmar aspect of her left hand. There are lacerations of her hand as well, there and there, and she also has broken bones in her right hand as well.
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At this time, I'd like to see if we could just approach the state in the defense for a brief sidebar.
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So ladies and gentlemen, this thing looks like a good time for us to take about a 15-minute break. The jury has returned to the courtroom. Do we have Dr. Tranchita?
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Okay. Dr. Tranchita, I'd like to, before we complete the direct examination, ask you to show you a couple, several photographs and see if you can identify these for the jury. The first photograph I'd like to show you is 1M4. And could you, Dr. Trankeita, identify what is depicted in 1M4 up on the screen?
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The shower was running, and Sabrina went to go check on her mother and found her in the bathroom, and there were stains all over the floor. And then that is when... He came out of the laundry room and attacked.
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This was the ligature, a rope that was recovered from around He-San Teague's neck, the body of He-San Teague. It appears to be a yellow woven nylon sort of rope that was looped around, or looped through, rather, a gray metal hook. has created a man-fixed simple noose around the deceased's neck.
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Now, Dr. Chankita, you've already discussed numerous injuries on East Antiques' body in various places that either had a complete circle shape or half-circle or crescentic type of shape like a crescent moon. I want to show you one specific photo. It would be 1M12. See if you could identify that jury.
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One M12 is depicting a crescent shaped abrasions. on the upper aspect of the left side of the scene's back, just on the medial aspect, or the closest part to the midline of the shoulder blade. In addition, there's a second, more circular, outlined circular abrasion. These are what we referred to earlier as our patterned abrasions.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In other words, these aren't just regular sort of shapes on the skin surface. there's a very kind of clearly defined shape to this injury, which might be helpful to indicate what sort of instrument or object caused, or surface caused these injuries.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Now, Dr. Trinkita, as part of your examination, a part of your autopsy in this case, did you have an opportunity to look at a tire iron that was displayed to you as part of this autopsy?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I did, and I referred to this tire iron on page 14 of the autopsy report. This was after the completion of the autopsy in a separate room. I examined a tire iron that was brought to me as a possible instrument.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'd like to show you just several more photographs at this time, starting with 1M13. Can you identify that photograph for the jury?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is the tire iron that was brought to me. This is a photograph that was taken by us. We have used a blue tray as a background. And this is our label from our medical examiner's office. It's a gray scale label that we can detect to see if there's an alteration to color. And it also has a scale on it as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The case number for this case is also included on the label, so we know which photograph goes with which case. This is the tire iron that was given. As you can see, it has a rounded edge. It has a chiseled edge, and the remainder of the tire iron is wrapped in what appears to be gray duct tape.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As you got to look at that tire iron depicted in this photograph, was there at least a red substance on portions of the duct tape as well? That is correct.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In particular, when there was dried red residue on the socket end of the tire iron as well as on the duct tape as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It went really well, and we were trying to get everything set up and start life together.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'd like to go forward to 1M14. Can you just describe it? It's more of a close-up. Can you describe that for the jury?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you go over to the bathroom to look to see what was in there at that time? No, I did not. Drawing your attention back to this photograph, that appears to be a kitchen island. Is that accurate? Yes. When you came in, where did you go? I was on the other side of the island. When you say the other side of the island, are you talking about the side where the table and chairs are or the other side?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is some of that tacky red substance residue that was present, consistent with blood, on the duct tape of the tie rod.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And is this the end of it, or has the rounded area at the end of the tie rod? That is correct. Go to 1M15, or the close-up again.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is more towards the middle portion between the socket end and the chisel end of the tire iron. Again, the duct tape that's wrapped around the handle, if you will. And again, red residue droplets present on the duct tape.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Go forward to photograph 1M16.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is another close-up to, again, emphasize the presence of this red residue of droplets present on the duct tape. 1M17. This is the chisel portion of the tire iron. As you can see, it has a fairly sharper edge than the chisel portion, which is not covered with duct tape.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is a side view of the socket head of the tire wrench. Again, duct tape is covering the tire wrench almost all the way up to the socket head. And there's dried red residue on the socket head.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Final photograph, 1M19.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is an on-foss or head-on view of the socket head. The one thing that I want to emphasize is the rounded edge of the socket head of the tire wrench. In addition, there's also a hexagonal pattern imprinted on the inner aspect of the socket head. of the injuries. The curvature of the socket head is consistent with some of the pattern abrasions caused on the body.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And in addition, the edge of the hexagon is also indicated in some of the injuries as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So based on your view of the, of Hisantik's body and also your view of this, this tire iron object we're looking at, you indicated, you believe this tire iron is consistent with causing some of those injuries on her body.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's correct. I believe that during the assault of Hisantig, the ligature that was indicated earlier was used, and this tile iron is consistent with having been used as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'd like to go back to photo 1M12, and I'd like to see if we can zoom in, if we can zoom in any further. Can we do that? Okay. Okay. Dr. Tranchita, do you see the injury? It's on the right side of the photograph, the right side of Hisantique's kind of torso on her back. You can see that's the circle, is that correct?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's correct.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And can you actually see on the right side of the circle that hexagon or more of a straight edge? Absolutely. Well, then I'll just ask Dr. Tranchita, you describe what you see in that injury.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As we talked about earlier, we are seeing a pattern injury present on the seaman's body. Another part of the body is crescentic. In other words, only a portion of this rounded object has struck the seaman's body, so we're only seeing the crescent as opposed to the full moon or the full circle of the object.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In this injury, we can see that, again, one side is hit, causing a crescentic compression, but then a portion of the other side is present, creating a more complete circle. On the inner aspect of the circle, there appears to be a portion of a hexagonal image.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Just finally, a couple final questions, Dr. Tranchita. Based on your autopsy, your observations, your training experience, do you have a reasonable degree of medical certainty an opinion as the cause of death of .
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The other side. And where did Sabrina go oriented on this photograph? The side with the table and chairs. I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B4. Can you describe what's in that photograph? That is the fridge and the laundry room at the house. There appears to be staining on the floor and the wall and on the refrigerator. Was that staining present when you entered the residence? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what is that opinion?
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I listed her cause of death as homicidal violence, including stab wounds of the torso, blunt force trauma of the head, torso extremities, and compression of the neck.
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Do you have, again, an opinion? You kind of already indicated homicidal. Do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty to the manner of death of Heath Santee based on everything that you place on the record today? I do. What is that opinion?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe that the manner of death of Heath Santee is homicide.
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No further questions for Dr. Tranchita.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Cotton?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No questions. Thank you.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B5. Can you identify that photograph and what it depicts? That is the kitchen and the island. Can you see the bathroom where his son was located in this photograph? Yes. And where is it on the photograph? By the stairwell. And which direction from the stairwell is it? Towards the right. Towards the right.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you dated her? Yes. And at some point in time, did you live with Sabrina? Yes. When did that happen? About a month after we got together. And where did you live with her? With her in her house. And do you know the address of that house? 1368 Riverdale Drive. Who else lived there with you? Her mother. And what was her mother's name? He's son. Did she have a nickname? Sonny. Sonny?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So can you see into the bathroom very well in this photograph? No. So when you say that Sabrina went to go check on her mom, where did she go? Were you able to see the area where Sabrina went on this photograph? Yes. Can you describe that for the jury in a little more detail?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She went back towards the back of the house on the stairwell, and then right there in the bathroom was right in front of it.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After Sabrina looked into that bathroom, what did Sabrina do? She said, oh, my God, Mom, and then opened her phone to call 911. And did she stay in that area or did she move at all? She started walking back towards the door. Towards the door that you had entered? Yes. And where are you while that is happening? Standing by the island still. On this photograph, the left or the right of the island?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Left. There is some, what appears to be staining on the floor on the left side of the island. Was that staining present when you entered the home that day? No. So what happened after Sabrina said, oh my God, pulled out her phone and then started walking toward your direction? And... He walked out of the laundry room and proceeded to attack us. When you say he, who are you talking about? Kaya.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And do you know his first name? Jacob. At this point, Your Honor, I'm going to ask if Mr. Kennedy can identify the individual who he knows as Jacob Kaya. Before Mr. Kennedy makes any identification, I'm going to ask that... All of the members at council table and people in the first row remove their masks.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Once everyone's mask is removed, Joel, I'm going to ask you if you see the person who you know as Jacob in court here today. Yes, I do. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. Do you see him? Yes, I do. Could you indicate for the record where he is seated and what he is wearing? There and a gray shirt. I would ask the record reflect that he has identified the defendant. The record will so reflect.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you recall who Mr. Kayer attacked first, you or Sabrina? Sabrina. And where was she located when Mr. Kayer attacked her? On the other side of the island, by the chairs. Do you know what he used to attack either of you? A kitchen knife. Could you see the knife in his hand? Yes. Do you know what hand it was in? Right, I believe. Did you actually see Mr. Kair stab Sabrina? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you indicated that he attacked you as well. Do you know when that happened in relation to when he attacked Sabrina?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe he went after her first and then came over to attack me.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When he attacked you, where were you? I was still standing on the other side of the island. Were you standing roughly in the location where the staining is located? Yes. You said Sabrina had her phone out. What happened with the phone? I believe he slapped it out of her hand. And do you know if she actually successfully called 911? I do not think so. When Mr. Akayer attacked you, what happened?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I was standing by the island and he walked up and went to stab me and then I put my arm up and the blade went through my arm and into my chest. And then I fell back And started kicking at him and punching.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what did he do at that point when you started kicking at him and punching him?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe he kind of walked away and started going after Sabrina again. What did you do?
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I went out into the garage. Through the same door that you had entered? Yes. What did you do when you got to the garage? I went and I grabbed a shovel. And once you grabbed the shovel, where did you go to grab the shovel in the garage? On the other side of the garage. That garage, when we looked in exhibit, 1B1, we could see that the garage has three stalls. Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is that what everybody called her, Sonny? Yes. You too? Yes. And you said that shortly after you were dating, you were living with her, everything was going pretty well in your relationship? Yes. Joel, I'm going to show you what's been previously marked as Exhibit 1B1. Can you see it on this screen in front of you here? Mr. Kennedy, can you identify what's in that photograph? That is the house.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Orienting from that photograph, what location of the garage was the shovel found in? I'll bring that photograph back up for you here. The furthest right stall. So the shovel was near there? Yes. So you ran across the entire garage to get it? Yes. When you grabbed that shovel, what did you do then? They were...
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
following me out into the garage, fighting the entire time. And then I struck him here with the shovel. Where did you strike him? I believe in the face. And what happened then? They fell down, and I ran inside the house and locked the doors and called 911.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That message was sent on April 9th, 2016 at 2126 Universal Coordinated Time. The message read, please contact me at 352-801-0941.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it was.
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Is that a photograph from this commitment ceremony? That is. Is this a true and accurate depiction of the ceremony on that day, December 31st, 2000?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And then is there something that indicates that Vanessa Townsend should receive something out there? Yes. When was that sent and what was the content of that message?
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All right, this time the seat moves CCC into evidence as the next exhibit.
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On April 11, 2016, the message stated your special delivery is to arrive today. Hope to finally hear back from you.
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Any objection?
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Yes, sir. So at the time you were doing this ceremony in this fashion in front of your friends and family, you're saying that you had not represented this as a way.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you went back to the IP logs, were you able to find consistent IP shared history on February 25th from the Michael Shaver account and the Lori Shaver account? Yes, I was. Can you go ahead and describe to the jury the information that we have here?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
As part of the records that you looked into, did you seek out information and documents from Facebook?
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That we told everybody it was a ceremony, correct.
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Now, in 2018, law enforcement responds to your call. and eventually skeletal remains are found in your backyard. Do you remember that?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
These are the Facebook records that we received, the IP activity log that was put into the summary. This is Michael Shaver on this side, Lori Shaver on this side. The purple highlight is all from the same IP addresses, and it all shows the dates and times of what activity was conducted.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And at that time, did you ask Ms. Shaver how that body got there? I did not. So this person that you were in this committed relationship with that had told you that her husband had just left, just had no contact with the kids, there's a body found in the backyard, and you don't ask her a single question?
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Is there activity from Michael Shaver's account using that IP address on the day that these messages start being sent? Yes, there is.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, at some point, law enforcement had come on to the property for a couple of days executing a search warrant. Were you aware or did you ever see that activity? Yes. Do you remember when the purchase of that weapon was in relation to that search?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what was the date and time? That was February 25, 2016 at 21.57 Eastern Time.
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That's not exactly what happened. Lori called me on the day that the detective showed up at the house. I was at work. I had just gotten off work and she called me sobbing, crying, and I asked her what was wrong. She proceeded to tell me that detectives had shown up at the house and they were asking about Michael. She then told me that they had left. I told her I will be home shortly.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And then did Lori Shaver's account utilize that same IP address on that same day?
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Yes, it did.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what was that time? February 25th at 7.06 Eastern Time. When did Michael Shaver's Facebook account have the most activity during the time frame that you were working? Sure, the most activity was concentrated around this time, the end of February 26th. To that extent, to the time frame that messages were being sent to Vanessa Townsend. Yes, sir.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I worked real close to where we were living and I got home, walked in the house. As soon as I walked in the house, a detective knocked on the door. He proceeded to ask me if I knew anything about Michael. I said, no, I've never met him. I couldn't even tell you what he looked like if you showed me a picture. And which detectives did show me a picture. I was like, okay.
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What was the time frame that you obtained these Facebook records and IP addresses for both the White Chamber and the White Chamber account?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We tried to go back to...
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2014 until whatever the time was that we got these records sometime in 2018. Is it fair to say that this shared IP history extends from November 2015 to November 2017? Yes. And going through the time frame in April, once the flowers are received, is that when the majority of the activity appears on this fellow white illustrator's account?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They just told me, we'll be in touch. And that was that. I walked back in the house. I told Lori, I said, it looks like something serious is going on. You need to get an attorney.
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Yes, I did.
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But specifically, you did not ask her anything about the fact that that body was from the backyard? Correct. Do you remember ever saying that at one point you did ask her about it and she said she had no idea about it?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And in order to obtain records from Facebook, how do you go about doing that?
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We're publishing page 27 and 28 of the history of the summary, sorry. And can you summarize the types of activity that you're seeing on the Michael Shaver account and talk about how that relates to Lori's share?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, sir. No.
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After the body was discovered, did you speak with law enforcement?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sure. So according to the summary, it looks like once a day, Michael Shaver's Facebook account will back up. Using the same IP address that Lori Shaver's account was also accessing while Lori Shaver was uploading photos.
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I had multiple conversations with law enforcement.
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Did you ever make the statement relaying from Ms. Chambers that it is not that he is missing and it's that he is no longer walking the face of this earth? Have you ever made that statement to law enforcement?
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Now, during this time frame, is this when Facebook messages are being sent to Vanessa Townsend prior to the flowers actually arriving at Vanessa Townsend's work?
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Thank you for bringing that up because there's a point of clarification. I understand what you're saying.
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Please don't argue. Please answer the question.
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And these are the time frames that the messages were not being responded to? Correct. Is Lori Shaver's account utilizing the same IP address throughout that same time frame? Yes, it is. Moving on to pages 29 and 30 from the summary, does this activity reflect actions that happened after the flowers had been received? Yes, it does. And what type of activity is being reflected here?
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I did not make that statement.
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You never made that statement to law?
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Not exactly as you're saying it, no.
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Did you ever make that statement to Robert Croker?
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We have to get a search warrant.
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Not as you're saying it, no.
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Who is Robert Croker?
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He's somebody that I have done work for.
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Is he a friend of yours?
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Have you known him for a long time?
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Did you prepare warrants to get information for a Facebook profile associated with a Michael Schaefer?
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I have known of him for a long time.
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You have no issues with him, though?
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You are now officially married to Ms. Schaefer, correct? Correct. When did that occur? 2020. Do you have any children with her? I do. How many? Two. What are their names?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So this activity, there are photos that are being uploaded, but there are also photos that are being sent.
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Now, when it says photo, does that differentiate between actual picture and then screenshots of text messages? It does not differentiate. And during this timeframe of all this activity on the Michael Shaver Facebook account, are there large number of photos and share, basically screen captures of text messages between Lori Shaver and Jeremy Townsend's future Vanessa Townsend? Yes, sir.
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Aralyn and Samuel.
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Has your relationship with your brother and your family changed in any way since you started a relationship with Ms. Shane?
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Not since I started a relationship with her since this investigation started.
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Has there ever been a time where Ms. Shaver used your phone to text your brother or she was acting as if she was you?
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Moving on to page 31 and 32 of the summary, what is the activity?
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Not to my knowledge.
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Have you ever told anyone that she did that?
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So it's very similar. You have logins. This one says that there were 40 photos that were sent, 8 photos sent, another login, 16 photos sent, 29 photos sent, 30 photos sent.
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Approximately three months, two to three months beforehand. And did you end up purchasing that weapon?
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Nothing further, Ted.
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Mr. Wiggs. Yes, please. Travis, let's start with one of the last issues that the state was asking you, not some statement. The statement was implying you had made some statement possibly that Lori made about willing to stop walking this earth, something of that nature. Tell us the circumstances of any questioning by law enforcement.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Pages 33 and 34, this is still all the same day as the previous page?
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Yes, it is.
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All right. And what is the activity here?
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Yes, I did.
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44 photos sent 29, 15, 31, 44, 31, 27 photos sent.
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I'm sure. already been entered into evidence in the state's exhibit number 10. Some drive in that envelope. Can you go ahead and take a look at that? And state's number 10 are those in Facebook records that you obtained from Facebook.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And moving on to page 35 and 36, are we seeing activity both on Michael Schamer Facebook and on Lori Schamer Facebook utilizing that same IP address? Yes, we are. 37 and 38, what information, first of all, what date, time frame are we talking about here?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Law enforcement wanted to have an interview with me, and I did not want to speak with them. One of the detectives had told me that if I do not speak with them, I will feel the full force of the United States government. I ended up having a conversation with that detective. I told him that I was working for Mr. Proper and that him and I were sitting on the back of my truck at the time.
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April 22nd, 2016. This is the 23rd. This is the 24th. Okay.
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So this is basically everything that we have here as far as once this activity heightens up is from April 16th to April 24th. That's all this activity is just over. Now, on April 24th, does Lori Shaver's account start utilizing that same IP address that we've been talking about the whole time again? Yes, it does. Is there an entry at approximately 2,100 hours that is close in time to each other?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And he asked me, what did I think was going on? And I proceeded to tell him that based on law enforcement's response, I didn't think that this was a welfare check. I didn't think that he was walking around anymore. I see.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. I'm going to show you what's been previously been marked as States Incident 4, identification. Without taking that out or anything like that, do you recognize that firearm?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, tell me about, did law enforcement come out to the residents and say they were conducting a welfare check? I believe so. Okay. Did you confront or speak with law enforcement in the backyard about their presence and why they were there?
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Yes, there is. And what is the time difference between the activity on the Michael Shaver Facebook account and the Lori Shaver Facebook account on April 24th?
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No. The only time I spoke with law enforcement at the property was the day that they were doing their investigation. Okay.
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So this is about 2,100 to 2,100. So we've done minutes for the Mike Shaver and then Lori Shaver's account in the 2,130, 2,130.
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Did law enforcement question you in the yard whether or not you saw anything unusual or anything of that nature?
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That flurry of activity over that week where you kept on saying, this might be measures, this might be measures. How much actual data are you talking about that was sent to Vanessa Fowler? There were approximately 500 images that were sent, 40 of which were actual photos.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
During the interview, law enforcement asked me if I had ever seen anything unusual. And I pointed a place out in the very back of the yard and said, if I had to point something out, I would say this is, and it was a large mound. It was a large mound of dirt. So I pointed that out.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The rest were screenshot with test images.
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The officer had the property pulled up on his phone, Google Earth, and he proceeded to point me towards the fireplace and asked me if there was anything unusual about the fireplace. I said, no. I said, the only thing that I've ever seen unusual is this very large amount of dirt in the back of the property. He then directed me back to the fireplace. And he did that a few times.
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Showing you states PPP for identification. Do you recognize those?
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Good morning.
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Can you please introduce yourself to the jury?
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Please introduce yourself to the jury.
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All right. Let's have a sideboard. Thank you. All right. Please proceed.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing you what's been previously barred for identification of states PPP. Do you recognize those photos? Yes, I do. What are those photos?
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These photos are from Roy Shaver's Facebook account that were sent to...
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And just to go ahead and make sure there wasn't a misunderstanding or a technical mistake, the source of this information was from Michael Shaver's Facebook. Correct. And this is the information that was sent to Vanessa now, correct? Correct. This time, the state moves states PPP into evidence as states...
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And I just told him, I said, I have no idea what you're talking about. I see.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So there was a period of time at which this patio was poured, correct? I'm sorry, say that again? There was a period of time, as the state referenced, about Megs are being rented, you and Lori pouring the patio, correct? Yes, sir. Okay. Now, the state has suggested... that this day to death was, I believe, around 9-12-16. Objection, Your Honor. Okay.
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Yes, I do.
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Yes, they are.
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Is that the firearm that you purchased from Orange?
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And when you obtain these types of records, are they sent to you, printed out in boxes, or how are they sent to you?
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Yes, sir. All right. Any further? Okay. Objection is overruled.
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These photos that are contained here are some of the photos that are in that unit that you just went through? Yes, they are. And on the left, do you recognize that individual? Yes, I do. And who is that? That's Lori Shaver. And on the right, do you recognize those individuals? Yes, I do. And who are they? Lori Shaver and Jeremy Townsend. Photographs identified as page 1145 and 1150. Who is that?
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Sidebar, please. There's an objection. All right. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, a specific date was stated on the record. Please disregard that date. Thank you.
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Thank you, Judge. So law enforcement directs you to this Patio, correct? Yes, sir. You helped lay the patio, correct? Yes, sir.
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1156, 1164.
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Jeremy Townsend and Lori Shaver. And 1193. Lori Shaver. 1196. Now, is that all the photos that were in that folder? No. That's just some of them for right now? Correct. All right. The last message from Michael Shaver's Facebook account to Vanessa Townsend, when was that posted? Last message was the end of 2016.
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Did you see anything unusual as you laid the patio? No. When Lori and I first met the patio slash fireplace that is in question right now, the dirt was already graded out.
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And the color and other features of it are distinctive to you?
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the form of the fireplace was already there so there was concrete concrete bags in one of the sheds that was at the property when i met lori how long had they sat on the property to your knowledge i have no idea they were there several months or what after lori and i met yeah oh it was it was months months Did there appear to be any hurry to lay a patio? No, sir.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They're not. So Facebook has a law enforcement records request portal where they will upload all of that information to and we then download it in a zip folder because it's usually quite large.
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Was there a message on September 20th of 2016 from the mining chamber account to the Vanessa Thompson account?
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In fact, the only reason why we decided to lay the patio was Isabel, Lori's oldest daughter, her birthday's in September. So we were going to have a large get-together, a birthday party, and the area around the fire pit was all mud. So we decided, well, the concrete's there in the shed. We're going to go ahead and lay that so people don't have to stand in mud during the celebration.
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The colors match and very distinctive.
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And what was that message?
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The final message was on September 20th, and it says, Hi, Vanessa, how are you? Moving on, what's good on you? Hope you and your son are doing well.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Based on your review of the Ori Shaver Facebook records, were there pictures of the cement slab that was covering Michael Shaver's body prior to the September 20th date that that message was sent? Prior to that, yes, sir. And what was the IP address associated with that? 199.116.175.8. Now, did you also obtain bank records associated with Lori Shader? Yeah, I did.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The mixer that you rented, did you use a credit card or cash? I don't remember. It could have been either or. There wasn't any effort to try to conceal your whereabouts, disguise your presence in there, correct? No. Anybody substitute their presence for you? No, sir. Did you ask anybody other than taking care of this personally? No, sir.
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After that purchase occurred, at some point, did law enforcement come to make contact with you and ask about this firearm? Correct. And at that time, did you turn this firearm over too long? I did. Your Honor, at this time of state move, states exhibit far into evidence that states 26.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Joining the defense, states tell L. Your Honor, at this time, the state moved states tell L into evidence. The defense is starting to search for people to attach. Just a quick approach.
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Did you see evidence of any crime within the residence the whole time you were there? Never. One moment, please, Judge.
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Yes, sir. That's all I have.
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Thank you, Judge.
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Thank you, sir. Redirect. Yes, sir.
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All right, sidebar, please. Thank you.
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Can you please introduce yourself to the jury?
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I'm showing you states 40. Do you recognize those documents?
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Robert Bob Proper. I live in Groveland. I'm not sure what all you need.
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Do you know Travis Duller?
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Yes, I do.
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Sure. Good afternoon. I'm Corporal Jared Strickland with the Lake County Sheriff's Office.
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Good morning. I am Robert Seha. I am the owner and operator of the equestrian facility on the premises of the location that you guys were all talking about in this case, behind.
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And how do you know him?
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And one of them, right? These are three A's, B's, E's, they can have statements. Did Michael Shaver and Lori Shaver maintain separate pay accounts? They did. Was there activity contained within those records that showed payments to send through like the internet service provider that they have to sell? Yes, there was.
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Through my church, Real Life Christian Church.
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And how long have you known Mr. Duller?
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Since approximately 2013, 2014, something like that.
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And what is your relationship? A friend.
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I believe in mentoring and try to work with young men. And he's somebody that I met, and we became friends.
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Was there any sort of records associated with the purchase of flowers around the time that the flowers were sent to Vanessa Nelson? Yes, there was. And publishing... portion of that, exhibit the area in red. Can you go ahead and state the date of that?
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And through that, have you ever met Lori Shaver? Yes. Has there ever been a time frame where you would socialize with Travis Fulmer and Lori Shaver?
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Well, we did have some small group sessions together with other couples. We did financial counseling and some marital-type relationship counseling.
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And do they assign it any special number?
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The date that the transaction posted to the account was on April 8th. It says BB&T check card purchase from New Flowers. Transaction date was April 7th, and the amount of $42.98.
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Did you have any personal knowledge about when their relationship started or when they went in together or anything like that?
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Is it unusual in your experience, both personal and in investigating financial crimes, that the actual purchase would come on the bank records on a date other than the purchase date?
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Not specifically, no.
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And has she ever made any representations about what had happened with her prior husband?
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That she was divorced and he was gone.
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At some point, an investigation starts, and law enforcement is at the Shaver property, and the remains of Michael Shaver are found. Did you have any conversations with Travis Filmer about what was going on at that time?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The actual purchase that we are looking at here, is that consistent with the flowers that were sent to Vanessa Nelson? Yes, it is. The company that is reflected on there, is that a local business or is that an online company? From you, Flower Hill is an online company. So whoever is purchasing flowers through...
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Yes, they do.
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Does that number appear in the records themselves?
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Not specifically about those actions. My interaction with him was a little bit different than that.
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that business would not be writing out a card or anything like that, but they include a message to be sent with the flowers. Correct. And then is that from you, flowers, do they then associate with local florists who do the taxable delivery? That's correct. He means this transaction associated with the local delivery of the flowers sent to Vanessa Townsend. Yeah, it is.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At any point did he tell you any statements about what Lori said about Kermit? Sidebar, please. Did Mr. Culver make a statement that he said represented the problem?
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What was that?
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We were discussing Mr. Shaver's disappearance and he made the statement basically that it wasn't a matter of he was missing, he was no longer walking the earth.
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Yes, it does.
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Does that number also appear on the business record certification that's included in that?
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Nothing further at this point.
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Mr. Wiggs. Hold on one second. Thank you. Just one moment, Mr. Wiggs.
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Okay, and just to be clear, as I did mention, that I'm going to be talking about Michael Shaver bank records. These DD&T records, do they indicate in there who this account belongs to? Yes, it does. And who does this account with the flower purchase belong to? This is Roy Shaver's account. Thank you, sir.
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Nothing further, Judge.
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All right, Mr. Wiggs. Yeah, please to the court. And was that Mr. Filmer's opinion?
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He's the one that told me.
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Yeah. He made some statement to you that, well, maybe he stopped walking this earth, right?
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He told me that it wasn't a matter of missing, that it was a matter of he wasn't walking the earth. That was what he said. That was his statement to me.
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Anything further? No, sir. Mr. Weitz, please proceed. Thank you. Yes, sir.
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Did you just handle the digital data that you've just testified to in this case? Did I handle it? Yes, sir. Okay. Anybody else? Yes, sir. Pardon me? Yes, sir. Who was that?
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He speculated, right?
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His statement to me.
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And we renew our objection. It's not relevant. It's not frugitive to any mature effect in this case. This gun is not that linked to this crime in any form or any manner.
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It was his statement. Overruled. Please continue. I'm sorry?
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That's what you speculated his thought process was, correct?
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The entire team of investigators that were working this would have reviewed it at some point. Who was the lead officer on this case? There were several of us that could have been considered the lead detective. Who did the primary report? There were a few of us that did primary reports. Tell me everybody. Who was the primary on the case? I did very lengthy, several reports.
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Did you get any statement in writing from the SAM?
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I had no need to.
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Did you have a counseling session with me?
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Yes, it does.
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I'm not a counselor. I'm a friend.
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Did you do any counseling?
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Not professionally.
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Did you do any prenatal counseling?
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Not professionally.
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Okay. Well, I mean, you don't hold a degree.
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Now, Lieutenant Tammy Dale also did lengthy primary reports, as well as Detective Dorrier also did primary lengthy reports. Okay. Anybody else? Yes, there were several. Okay. Who all? Sir, I couldn't name them all without seeing all of them. I know Detective Clay Watkins did reports. I know that the initial responding deputies did report. There were a multitude of people that did several reports.
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Do you unofficially hold yourself out and give any kind of counseling?
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I routinely meet with young men and older men. I'm doing that tonight.
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Records that we're dealing with there are on a thumb drive. Do we have over 3,000 ages on that thumb drive?
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Okay. So you do some counseling and some unofficially counseling?
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I would call it mentoring.
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Mentoring. Okay. That's what you call it. But whatever Travis said to you, stop talking to him. All right.
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Who handled all the digital data as to the officers involved?
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Just let him know. Just my word. Okay.
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All I'm doing is repeating what he's told me. Okay. I don't know what you mean by that, but I can... One person may watch TFR, are you mad at him? No, I'm not. He says he doesn't. No, I'm overruled.
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So I can only attest to myself to maintain that chain of custody. Whenever I received those records, I was the one that was responsible for submitting it to evidence. Once it was put, typically back then, data was put on a CD. Once it was placed into evidence, I would have a working copy on my computer that would then be shared with the other detectives that were also working the case.
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But the records that they were, as they were received in their original format, I was responsible for those, and I can't speak to everybody else.
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Okay, thank you. You had mentioned early on that you were advised that the IP addresses were rolling accounts or rolling IP addresses, correct?
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Please proceed.
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Somebody may watch TV and see something on TV and interpret it a little different than the person seated next to him, correct?
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No, sir. What I advised was that CenturyLink only maintains subscriber records for one rolling calendar year. Rolling year.
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Certainly that can happen.
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Yes, correct.
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All right, the objection is overruled. Estates R will be entered into evidence. Estates number 26.
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Thank you very much. Thank you. Redirect. All right, please be seated. All right, sir, I'm going to make a preliminary inquiry. I'll swear you in.
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Okay. Now, what happens after an extended period of time? What happens to the IP addresses that are on record with the company? For CenturyLink, I don't know what they do with their records after a year.
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As you've gone through, after you've initialed it, you have gone through all of those records, looked at the pictures, things of that nature. Yes, I have. And as you went through that, are there pieces of information that identify the potential owner of that profile?
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Please state and spell your full legal name. My name is Austin James Filmer, A-U-S-T-I-N-J-A-M-E-S-F-I-L-M-E-R. Please raise your right hand.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Do you know whether they expire, they're deleted? No. Anything that happens still? Sir, I do not know what happens to CenturyLink's record after a rolling calendar year.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that any testimony you give today shall be the truth, whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God? Yes, sir. All right, sir. And are you married? Yes, sir. Who is your wife?
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What do you know about Facebook? What happens to their records after an extended period of time?
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I don't know what their retention time frame is. However, we were able to go back at least four years in this case. Okay. With Facebook? Through Facebook, yes.
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Rebecca Urbanowski. Okay.
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So Rebecca Urbanowski, not Filmer.
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When you purchased this gun, no statements were made from Ms. Shaver indicating that use in any crime or any ill motive purpose, correct? Correct. Do you know if Ms. Shaver had ever sold any other items from her residence? Not to my knowledge. Okay. Now, did there come a time when you contacted Ms. Shaver advising her that you'd seen somebody trespassing on her property? Correct. Okay.
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Correct. She didn't take my last name.
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All right, sir. And... Have you at any time seen your wife, Rebecca Urbanowski, conducting any research regarding this case?
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Okay. Now, does Facebook, do their records go back and allow you to trace the records they have back to the physical address of the individual?
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Did you see your wife viewing any media concerning this case? No, sir. Have you done any research concerning this case? Have you viewed any media concerning this case? No, sir. Has your wife, Rebecca, spoken to you about conducting any research? In the case? No, sir. Has she spoken to you about commenting, making any comments on social media about the case? No, sir. All right.
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Facebook, I do not believe, collects address data.
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Okay. The registered address for the IP is a registered physical address, correct?
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The IP address that is provided by the internet service provider would be the subscriber information.
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And it would be registered to a physical address, correct? Correct. Okay. Now, after a period of time, do you know whether or not that data is deleted, expires or anything happens to it?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And does the state wish to inquire? No, sir. Okay. Mr. Wiggs?
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No, sir. You know if your wife's looking at any social media?
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Some companies are different. Some companies, their records will expire sooner than others. Some companies keep their records for perpetuity. Do IP addresses change at all?
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No, sir. All right. Is that to the satisfaction of the parties? Yes. All right. Please introduce yourself.
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My name's Austin Filmer.
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Yes, they do. Okay. So IP addresses that may be out there for a period of time can actually change? Yes, they can. And identify or use somebody else's address, correct?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You know Travis Filmer?
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How do you know him?
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He's my brother.
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Are you older or younger?
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We're twins.
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So are you older or younger?
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I'm four minutes older. All right. Do you know Lori Shaver? I do. And how do you know her? She's married to my brother. You see her in the front room and can you point her out? I do. She's sitting right there. Blonde hair, black jacket, polka dotted blouse.
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That is correct. Okay. Which is why the date and time stamp that is on the activity is so important.
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Okay. In this case... Were you able to link up an IP address with a physical address and a device? Not through CenturyLink, no. Okay. Not through CenturyLink. Were you able to link it up from Facebook to a physical address to a device? I think I was, yes. You think he was? Yes, sir. What do you mean? Tell me. What do you mean?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, when did you first meet the defense?
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I was actually at my place of employment December 2015, I believe. And where do you work? I work at a fitness center in Claremont.
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At the time, what was that fitness center called?
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That was Gold's Gym at the time. And has it changed ownership? Not ownership, but names. What is its current name? Fitness CF.
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The same IP address that was used for Lori Shaver's account was also used on Mike Shaver's account. An IP address is a unique identifier that works similar to mailing a letter through the U.S. Postal Service. So if your address was constantly changing... There's a possibility that you would not get the mail that was intended for you and vice versa.
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Are you married? I am, yes. And what's your wife's name? Rebecca Urbanowski. Did she also work at that same facility at that time frame? Yes, sir, she did. What circumstances did you meet Lori Shaber?
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And how long have you been with the Lake County Sheriff's Office?
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My position at the time was to do an initial consultation for anyone joining the gym. So she was scheduled to do the first consultation with me, and I conducted the evaluation.
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That's why the date and time stamp that's on IP address logs are so important.
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Yes. This comes from Facebook.
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And approximately when was this?
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December 2015.
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And through that meeting, did your now wife end up becoming involved with a shamer? Yes. And under what capacity was that?
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Does Facebook identify with any degree of specificity what the Senator delivered your law enforcement?
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So again, my job was to do a fitness evaluation and then place the potential client with a personal trainer. And my wife was a personal trainer at the time.
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Yes, there is.
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They received a search warrant requesting IP address logs, messages, photos, transactional information, and other content for the Facebook unique identifier. In response to the warrant, Facebook Meta, as they're called now, provided responsive records on March 8, 2019, and those records were downloaded by me.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did they start basically working together as a client-trainer relationship? Yes, sir. Did they end up becoming friends? Yes. And at a certain point, did Rebecca move into Lori's home?
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What kind of information is there?
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Does it identify the records?
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When was that?
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It does by the Facebook user account number.
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Not long after. A month or two, maybe? Yeah, not long after.
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Okay. Does it identify the records themselves?
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So sometime early in 2016? Yes, sir, correct. At any point, did you live at that residence?
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Typically, there's a phone number as well as an email that's associated with that, along with what Facebook calls the vanity name, which is a unique identifier that cannot be changed within the Facebook records.
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By the user Facebook identity.
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By paragraph four, does it not state the records provided were an exact copy? Yes. Okay. But it doesn't tell you what the exact copy was there, does it? No, it does not. That we made and kept via automated systems. Doesn't tell you what was there, does it?
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Not per address, but I was there a lot, and I spent a lot of time there.
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And that was because your girlfriend at the time was living there? Yep, correct. And how long was Rebecca living at the Shea Residence? At least six months, at least. At some point, was there something that you believed to be a wedding in December 2016? Yes, sir, correct. Did Rebecca stay living at the home until that time?
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Okay. And in the course of regularly conducted activity as a regular practice of that, the records were saved in the format after search and made as automated system. in accordance with the above specified legal process.
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The records were made at or near the time the information was transmitted by META.
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How did Travis and Lori end up getting together?
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Through my wife and I. Well, she wasn't my wife at the time, but through my girlfriend and I at the time. My brother and I spent time together. We were together. They were friends and roommates, so we had an outing or two where they were introduced.
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Correct? That's what it says, yeah.
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And then it says further, META no longer retains a copy of the records provided. Correct? So they sent you a certificate saying, we at some point in time had this data. We're sure at some point in time we sent you some accurate information, but we don't have the documents anymore to verify anything. Correct? That's what you've got a certificate saying.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did there come to be a period of time where your brother and Ms. Shaver started dating?
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And when did that start?
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I have to say maybe April, maybe.
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And now we're talking 2016?
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So Facebook records back in 2018, whenever we sent the search warrants?
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During this time frame that your now wife was living over there, was there ever a time that you were over helping pouring a cement slab in and around the fire pit? Yes, sir. And tell me about how that came to be.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Please allow the witness to finish answering.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Whenever we received the records back in 2018 in their original format, Facebook records back then were self-authenticating. What that means is that the records were contained in a... Please allow the witness to finish the response.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sure. My brother contacted me, asking me to help him pour concrete around an existing fire, fire pit, I should say. He stated that Lori wanted concrete poured around the fire pit itself. And I told him, sure, I'd help him out.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you. Please allow the witness to finish. Please finish your response.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The records were received in a .zip folder because the files were so big that it had to be compressed to where it could be sent via internet portals. So whenever those records were received, they were in one singular folder. That folder was then put through an algorithm that's called SHA-256, which generates an extremely long chain of letters and numbers that is unique
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you ever poured a smith's lap?
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As your brother?
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Not to my knowledge.
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Did you guys have difficulties in pouring?
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Yes, sir, we did.
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Now, after the body was found underneath that slab, did you ever have any conversations with Morty or your brother about that? Not to a large extent. I'm just asking if you had the conversations. Up until that point, had Lori ever said anything about the whereabouts of her previous husband? Not to me directly.
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And as you went through those particular records, does that include photos that the user may have uploaded or someone using that account may have uploaded?
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to those records that were provided by Facebook back then. The records back then were self-authenticating. Facebook did not provide business record certifications back then because their records, according to Facebook, were self-authenticating.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Tell us about that.
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Okay, but we're dealing with records today. We're here in court today dealing with the case before us, not what was received and sent in a prior procedure, correct?
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Were you ever present when Travis was talking to detectives about things Lori had said about the body underneath that slab?
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Since 2006.
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And what is your current position or assignment?
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Okay. As stated, we have the... Sidebar, please.
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Yes, sir, I was.
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No, sir, those records were the records that I received in 2018.
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And what did you hear him say to the detectives about her husband and the body underneath that slab?
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Right, but we're here today, and now the records don't authenticate what you declare was self-authenticating on a prior date, correct?
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Objection. You're safe.
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Sidebar, please. What did you hear your brother say to the detectives about that?
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All right, come up for a sidebar.
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You'd acknowledge, though, the records we just looked at doesn't contain any representation specific of any documents, does it, sir? Sure. And your testimony is based as well on a vanity name, correct? And that's a method that you use to verify the documents that you proclaim that you received, correct?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So the conversation from the detectives was a conversation that my brother had with another gentleman. And they asked him details of Michael's whereabouts, if he's known anything about their whereabouts. And his reply was something along the lines of he's no longer walking the earth.
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Hold on, sir.
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Now, since Lori became involved with your brother, has your relationship with him changed?
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Can you please repeat that?
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Yeah. You were talking about on direct examination that there's ways of verification, and one was the vanity name on the account, correct? Sure. The vanity name is one of the unique identifiers. Okay. Do vanity names ever change? Vanity names that are internal to Facebook cannot change. Can anybody use another person's account? Absolutely. Okay.
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Extremely.
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And how so?
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For the negative.
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Do you have as much contact with him?
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Not nearly as much as we used to. Are you able to visit in that spot? No, I cannot go over there.
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Has there ever been a time that you received text messages from your brother that you thought were unusual?
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So when you say, well, we're relying on a vanity name that other people have access to, that's not a real dependable or reliable system to identify documents in the user, correct?
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So, sir, you had seen somebody trespassing upon the property, correct? Correct.
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And why do they seem unusual to you?
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I know the language that my brother and I use when we're speaking to each other. We say things like bro and dude. I have received texts where that language was completely changed. It was more of a direct language than anything.
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Did you see photographs of Michael Shaver throughout the Facebook profile associated? Yes, I did. Are you familiar with Facebook? I am. Did you ever have a Facebook account?
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The way that I answered that was based on the assumption that you meant that somebody could use that account. No, the vanity name is not recycled. It cannot be issued to somebody else. That vanity name is unique to that account forever.
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And have you ever asked him about those messages and whether or not he sent them?
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Yeah, but I just spoke to you and I just said other people can have access to that account. Correct. Or if they have access to the device that it's logged into. If anybody within the residence has access to the browser or knows the password, they have access to that information. Access to the device or knows the password, absolutely. Absolutely.
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And what did he tell you about that?
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He told me it was not him and that I was blocked on his phone.
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Has he ever made any statements about Lori making those texts to you?
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He has told me that she blocked me on his phone, yes.
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But as far as the text messages that were unusual?
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Sidebar, please. Mr. Filmer, the specific text messages I'm referring to are the ones that you thought were unusual and were out of character for your brother. You ever asked him about the source of those texts? Yes, sir. And what did he tell you?
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And as you said here today, you don't know which, if any, of those multiple documents that were submitted were utilized by any other individual, correct? No, sir. I know who they were used by. Okay. Did you witness the person signing in? No, sir. I did not. Okay. Did you witness the person sending? No, sir, I did not. Did you witness who was at the house at all hours, all times?
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uh correct uh i wouldn't possibly say just trespass until we're from the horse i'll get it in perspective we are 10 acres away on the other side i see a human silhouette i don't know at that time if anyone was supposed to be there or not but from the current situation of i believe that lori was off the property no one should be there
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Now, December 31st, 2016, did you attend a wedding ceremony at the chamber residence? Yes, sir. And who was that between? My brother and Lori. Nothing further, Judge.
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No, sir, I did not. Okay. And when somebody is at, as we spoke, at like Starbucks and people are accessing one account, you would acknowledge other people can access that same account, correct? Sure. Accounts can be hacked, correct? They can.
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Mr. Wiggs?
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You're talking about an email you received, correct? An email? Yeah, or text. A text, yes. Okay, so you get a text on one day. Your brother denies that he sent it, correct?
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So out of the multitude of all the documents you've spoken to, you can't direct attention to this specific document or this specific document and say that came only from Lori Shade?
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Yes, correct. Okay.
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Do you have a witness to homicide in this case, correct?
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No, sir, I believe I can. Okay. In light of what you just testified to, correct? The multitude of the evidence when taken of the totality and taken of the whole, yes, sir.
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Okay. You were not present to testify here about any event of violence that may have occurred, correct? Correct. Okay. What you're saying is you got an email on one day and your brother tells you where he's sitting, correct?
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Okay, okay. Now, did you request the Facebook records of Jeremy Townsend? No, sir, I did not. Do you know anything about Jeremy Townsend? I've met him and spoke with him. Okay. Did the state talk to you about Jeremy Townsend at all? No, sir. Anybody in law enforcement mention his name to you?
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For the questions that were asked, yes.
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Thank you.
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Good morning. Can you please introduce yourself to the jury?
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My name is Wilma Nicholas. Yes. He was my neighbor.
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In what capacity? I'm asking you. Yes, sir. We were conducting a thorough investigation, and he was obviously part of that. Okay. Did you look into his records? No, sir, I did not.
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When you say he was your neighbor, where were you living?
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Previously, yes.
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Sandy Pines Road in Claremont.
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Ultimately, when you're referring to being a neighbor, a neighbor to the residence where his body was especially found.
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Did you look into Jeremy Townsend's bank records? No, sir, I did not. Okay. Was any kind of audit done of Jeremy Townsend?
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As the neighbor, did you also know Lori Shearer? Yes. I see her in the courtroom and can you identify her by something that she's wearing?
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You no longer have one? No, sir. All right. Is there anything that would prevent another individual from logging into someone's Facebook account as long as they had either the password or a device that was already associated with that and currently logged?
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An audit? Yes. No, sir.
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She's sitting over at the defendant table wearing a black blazer.
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Now, in the records that have been thrown into evidence at this stage, is there any statement in there? And any single record about commission of a crime? No, sir. Any statement within those records about any collusive efforts to cover up a crime? No, sir. So these records allegedly deal with purportedly Lori Shaver and Deborah Townsend.
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How long did you live next door to the Shavers?
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The entire time that they lived there.
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You were there first?
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When did they first move in?
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In 2014. What kind of neighborhood is it? It's rural, country, farm.
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Now, I'm going to go ahead and show... Photograph number one from States Exhibit 15. Do you recognize this property?
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Which records?
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Most of the records that have been introduced here.
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Deal with Michael and Lori, yes.
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Okay. And yet there's no... bearing on any crime or an attempt to cover up any crime within those records, correct? By whom? Whoever's communicating. Did you see any evidence or communications in those documents of any effort to cover up a crime? No. Any mention of a crime? No. And had there been, surely law enforcement would have made an arrest, correct? Yes.
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Okay. And what property is this?
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That's the Shaver property.
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Can you just step down and point without touching on the screen where your property is in relation to that?
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Wharton. This is my house. This was a tech room, passport, garage, and a barn.
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Is there any sort of fence or anything like that between the two properties?
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It's a cattle fence that's just wire.
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Now, we spoke about or we saw messages dealing with flowers. Do you know the motive of the individual that sent those?
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So it's nothing that will prevent you from seeing anything?
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No. All right.
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Go ahead and have a seat. Thank you. Now, would you ever socialize with them?
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Yes, in the beginning we did.
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That sent the flowers? Yes, I do.
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Was there a period of time in 2014 that Michael Shaver moved out of the home?
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Okay. Did it have anything to do with the crime? No, sir, it did not. Okay. And the flowers that have been referenced, they have anything to do with the crime? Not directly. They have anything indirectly to do with the crime? Yes, sir. Okay. And did you put that in your report, explain that to law enforcement?
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Several periods of time.
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And when did he move back in the home?
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Well, he was gone periodically. Whenever there would be a dispute, she would have him leave, and then she would bring him back. So it was multiple times.
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No. The portion of the flowers was not part of my investigation other than the finding of the records in the bank statement.
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When was the last time that he moved?
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It was 2015 in the summer.
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And was there some follow-up on the flowers that showed that the flowers were utilized in the commission of a crime? Not in the commission of a crime, no, not directly. Now, CenturyLink, is that associated in a connective link with Facebook?
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Now, did you see as a neighbor or any of the times that you socialized Michael interacting with his children?
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Yes, sometimes, yeah.
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When you would see it, how was he?
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Very loving, patient, calm.
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Have you ever seen him do anything for the kids in the backyard? Yes. What types of things did he do?
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That was the Internet service provider that the IP addresses using Facebook were accessed from? Facebook is one system.
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Well, he built a barn. He built a chicken coop, I think a bunny hutch. He was working on a duck pond.
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CenturyLink's a different system where the browser's connected to, correct? With Internet connectivity, yes. Okay. Did you obtain a business record certificate from CenturyLink? Yes, I did. Okay. Did that business record certify the reliability of any of the records that you received from Facebook?
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When did that construction start?
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It was in the summer, I believe, of 2015.
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And when we were talking about pushing in the duck pond, what type of work had been done on that?
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He had dug an area. It wasn't very deep. He was pretty meticulous, too, with everything that he did there. So it was very neat and tidy.
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Rejection, Your Honor. Your approach? Sidebar.
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No. What is an ISP? So an ISP is an Internet Service Provider. That is the company that you pay for internet through.
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Have you seen any personnel from Facebook here today? No, sir, I have not. Okay. Have you spoken to anybody directly about Facebook?
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Right here.
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Okay. Now, eventually, was there a period of time where it changed from a hole of a duck pond to something else? Yes. And what was that?
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Now, when we talk about routers as well, and people having access to a router, if somebody's in the vicinity of a router, they can proceed through that route if they can have access to it.
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As long as they have access to the path key.
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Thank you. Now, have you seen or spoken to Michael Shaver since November of 2013? No, I have not. When did you first notice that the hole, well, that the area that was supposed to be a duck pond had been filled in with a fire?
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Currently, I'm a corporal. I'm one of the supervisors within our criminal investigations unit.
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Okay. So when we talk about the records that have been moved into evidence at this stage, do you know who, if anybody, may have had access at all hours, at all times, for any and all of these documents? Yes, sir. One moment, please.
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It would have been around in the spring of 2016, maybe early part of the year.
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Yes, sir. I don't have any further questions. Thank you, Judge. I thank you. Redirect?
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At that point, I would assume it would be on the terms of trespassing, but not on the terms.
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Yes, sir. Those IP addresses where the information is shared between both the Michael Shaver Facebook and Laurie Shaver Facebook, does that go from November 2015 to November 2007?
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Now, between the time frame in November of 2015, where you left, saw, or spoke with Michael Schaefer, and when you noticed that that fire pit started being put in, did you spell anything unusual in the proximity of your home, the neighborhood, things of that nature? Yes. In this rural setting, are there time frames where there are dead animals, cattle, horses, things of that nature?
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Yes, it does.
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And how many separate IP addresses were shared over those two years?
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And did that basically go that entire two-year period? There was continual shared IP address information with those people? That's correct. So for an individual that was hacking into each and every one of those IP addresses, this would have to be a systematic two-year period where they were... trolling outside the Shaver residence or wherever that IP address would be in order to make that.
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Once in a while, my neighbor behind me had cattle, and probably in 2007, 6, 7, a cow died on her pasture. She didn't bury it. She just left it there. So whenever the wind blew up to my house, it was horrible. It was disgusting. So I was very familiar with that smell.
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And what is an IP address?
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So you knew Lori was off the property at that time or away from the residence? Correct. No further questions. Thank you, George.
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That's correct.
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Very distinctive smell.
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Overruled. I'm sorry, what's your answer?
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You don't forget it.
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Now, in that timeframe between November of 2015 and when the fire pit started being installed, was there a timeframe that you smelled that this thing would smell again?
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That's correct.
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Now, when you were talking about information regarding criminal activity and those Facebook records on cross-examination, let me ask you this hypothetically.
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An IP address stands for Internet Protocol. This is a unique identifier to a network that a device is connecting to the Internet on.
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Yes, I did.
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Now, based on your prior experiences in the neighborhood with the livestock and cattle, did that cause an immediate concern?
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If an individual killed another person and had access to their Facebook account, and then after the person was dead, proceeded to post on that Facebook account over a period of years to try to show activity that that person was still alive, would that be evidence of a crime? Yes. As it relates to potential hacking into someone's account.
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Yes. Actually, my son and I were on the back porch, and we were talking, and I had been smelling it, but he had just come, and he wrinkled his nose and said, Do you smell that? And I said, Yeah.
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But nothing rose from the level of he felt that he felt alone because of the other livestock or anything?
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If someone in China is getting into Michael Shaver's Facebook account, would the IP address be the same one that is accessing the Laurie Shaver account?
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At some point... That area that was being used as a fire pit, I have a cement slab put in. Yes. And you remember when that was?
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No, it would not.
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That would be an IP address somewhere in China.
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It was around in 2016. I believe there's two layers of cement that was done. The first one I think was in the beginning of the year.
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All right. Thank you. State? Just say, when did that happen?
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That's correct.
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The Facebook records that you obtained... On that business record certification, did that spell out the specific number that was associated with those records? Yes. And if you were to pull those records up on the various thumb drive, would that number be contained there as well?
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springtime and then later on in the year during the summer i know it was an area that they actually launched fireworks off of during the fourth of july so i believe it was covered by then nothing further judge mr wiggs yes please yes sir sam you testified that you had smelled the dead cow in that area correct many years ago yes okay and the
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Yes, it would.
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When you obtained those records originally in 2018, did it contain that same identifying number?
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Yes, it did.
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And when you went back to Facebook because of the fact that the documentation for evidence and submission changed in the timeframe that the investigation was going along, did you ask them for the same information that you received back in 2018 utilizing that number?
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As you went through the Facebook records, do they maintain IP logs or activity associated with that account?
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I cannot recall. Was it 2019, 2020, 2021? It would be in the realm of... 2018. Okay.
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Shavers also had pigs, correct?
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Not at that time.
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Well, tell me what time it was.
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Yes, I did.
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Pigs came in probably later in 2016, I think.
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Did they give you that and give you the same information that you had originally?
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I think there was one pot-bellied pig that was in and out of the house, and I'm not sure exactly when that arrived.
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They gave us the business record certifications, yes.
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And was that tied together with the records that you already had? That's correct. Nothing else, Judge? All right, Mr. Wiggs, I've been through. Please introduce yourself.
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Okay. That never happened.
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Yes. Not dinner. Yeah, we did.
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Yes, sir. Good morning. My name is Tamara Dale.
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Where do you work?
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Lake County Sheriff's Office.
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How long have you worked there?
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Been there for 21 years.
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I didn't go to their house to have dinner. We had invited them over to our place for, it was an Easter barbecue cookout, and I'd made Easter baskets for the two kids and my grandson, and they went and hunted eggs that day. Not inside the house, no.
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What is your current position?
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I'm a lieutenant in criminal investigation.
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Back in 2018- 2018, I was a sergeant in criminal investigations.
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In fact, looking at this photo... This is your house, right? Correct. And there's not a clear line of sight between your house and this fire pit, is there?
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So the lead detective in that case, she moved positions just within criminal investigations, and I became her supervisor, her sergeant at the time, and the case moved with her. I don't remember exactly when she moved positions, but I think it was sometime in 2018.
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Yes, there is.
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There's a clear line of sight? Yes. Can we look at that and see a clear line of sight? Yes. Okay. Now, you don't go to the Shaber residence, correct? Correct. Yeah, I'd been to it several times. Did you sit down with Ms. Shaver on occasion to have tea, sit there and talk to her?
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Now, at some point, did Detective Thorier leave?
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Yes, she did.
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And when she left, did you kind of step up in order to take on some of the responsibilities of this investigation?
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Yes, they do.
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Not having tea, but I do recall I did go one time and sat and had quite a lengthy conversation with her.
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Yes, I did.
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Now, during the course of this investigation, were you provided with potential names from Mr. Wiggs that he thought you needed to look into and invest in?
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And does that IP address give you a physical address that's associated with that IP address?
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Was that complaining about the pigs?
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Did you ever complain to Ms. Shaver about any of the animals?
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No, not to her, no.
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We were, yes, sir.
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Did they ever kill a pig over there?
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And what were those names?
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Jeremy Townsend and James or Jimmy Ballew.
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I don't know. They had animals that died frequently over there.
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And were those individuals interrogated?
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Okay. So they had animals on the property. They had some pigs, correct?
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They were.
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Did Longhorset go and look into the assertions made by Mr. Wiggs about them?
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Okay. And there was a neighbor behind y'all with horses, correct?
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They came in 2016 and started a horse farm back there.
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In the sheriff's office and when an investigation like this is being investigated, is there just a single detective assigned or is there a team?
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Okay. So we had horses in the area, a lady with a cow that died. We had the shavers next door with some pigs, correct?
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So sometime in 2018. But you don't know when?
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There will be a team. We have a lead detective, as I mentioned, but several detectives will work on a case of this complexity and size.
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There were not pigs there at the time.
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okay okay so do you know the date of death of michael shaver no okay so when you say at the time you don't know when michael shaver died do you i do know there was a period of time in 2015 and there weren't pigs there at that time they have any rabbits or other animals they did have rabbits and i believe that came a little later
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And basically everybody worked together, so not everybody's doing every interview, but all the information is being installed.
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Correct, yes. So the lead detective kind of organizes everything and delegates to some of the other detectives some duties.
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Now, during the course of the investigation was information about Michael Schaefer's phone obtained from the service provider. Yes, sir. What was the phone number of Mr. Schaefer that was looked at?
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No, it does not.
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Are you able, once you get that IP address, to do anything to start investigating where the physical location of that may be?
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And you said this was, when did you detect, or when was the patio put in?
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Michael's phone number was 352-431-5121.
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I believe some cement was poured sometime around in the spring of 2016. I did not see it being poured.
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Springtime, possibly around 2018, if I'm recollecting around there.
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Okay. And what efforts were made in order to track down the information associated with that?
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So you never saw it pour. We see there's not really a clear line of sight from your house, correct?
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So we served a search warrant on his service provider, which was Verizon Wireless, and that was to get, of course, more information about the number itself.
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Yes, there is.
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Okay. One moment.
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Excuse me. Are those the records associated with the phone number that you just discussed?
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That's all I have. Thank you, Judge.
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All right. Thank you. Redirect?
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Nicholas, can you explain to the jury why you're saying you have a clear way outside over here?
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Yes, sir, 5-1-2-1.
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And who is the account assigned to?
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Lori Shaver.
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And were there multiple phone numbers associated with Lori Shaver through this account? Yes, sir. Focusing first on the phone records associated with the 5121 number associated with Michael Shaver, what information is contained in those records?
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Well, in the back, on the backside of my house, I had a really large deck porch. And from there, I could see directly over. Also, as I mentioned, it was a carport, which was completely open all the way through.
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Nothing further, Chuck. All right. When you please introduce yourself to the jury.
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So it has, we call it a call detail record, and it details date and time that calls came to or from this phone, duration of those phone calls, of course, who the subscriber is, like you just mentioned.
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My name is Megan Cleek. Where do you work now? I'm working for the University of Maryland Global Campus.
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And you didn't see this silhouette carrying anything or doing anything? No. You actually don't even know who this person is? No, no clue, nothing. And you are just assuming that this person was not supposed to be there? Correct. Nothing further than that.
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What do you do for that?
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I'm a student advisor.
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Where did you work before that?
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Before that, I worked with the Maryland State Police as a member of the firearms section of their crime laboratory.
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Does that include information that would include content of text messages or things like that?
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What did you do for their crime lab?
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The records that you have solely talks about actual phone calls. That's correct. When we are looking at the various phone calls, does it indicate incoming, outgoing things of that nature?
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The possession of a firearms examiner within a crime laboratory is responsible for the receipt, evaluation, examination of evidence specific to firearms examination.
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Yes, I can.
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Were you provided some evidence in this case of State of Florida v. Lori Shaver? Yes, I was. Evidently, were you provided a firearm?
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It doesn't indicate call duration?
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And what is that?
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Throughout the records, are there numerous entries for calls that have a duration of one minute?
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Yes, I was.
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Were you provided a fired projectile?
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Once we have an IP address, we're able to use Internet resources to find out who the Internet service provider is. Once we have the Internet service provider, we can send them a subpoena, and they will give us subscriber information, which includes the service location, the names on the account, billing information if we request it, and so forth.
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Does that mean that every call of that type of duration is necessarily answered by the person that is being called? No, sir. And if you were to look at the records of a person being called, if the call was not answered, would it then not register on their account?
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Schilling has put in reviews that states it's evidence 46. Do you recognize that item?
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Yes, I do.
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Is that firearm currently unloaded?
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Can you describe to the jury, and if you could show it to the jury as you're describing it, describe the firearm.
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This is one .38 Special Caliber Cobra Enterprises Model Shadow 5-shot revolver.
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No, it would not register on their account.
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And the timeframe for what you got the phone records associated with the 5121 number, what is that?
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Did you examine that firearm?
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Yes, I did.
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Is that firearm considered a single or double action firearm?
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Well, we asked for what we received.
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What did you ask for?
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We asked for August 1st, 2015 through March 9th, 2018, that being the day Michael Shaver's body was found.
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This is a double action only firearm.
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Does it require more effort to fire a double action firearm?
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And I want to go ahead and direct your attention to November of 2018. And if you need to step down in order to demonstrate to the jury the information that we have here, please do my best. Now, first of all, up here in this red box, what information is contained there?
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It does require a longer or more aggressive trigger pull. It requires both the cocking of the hammer and the releasing of the firing mechanism.
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What's meant by the term turner pull?
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Trigger pull would be the weight that is required to pull the trigger fully to the rear, cocking and releasing the firing mechanism.
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When you examine this firearm, did you perform any kind of a trigger pull analysis? I did not. At the time, did Florida Department of Law Enforcement do that type of testing?
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It says detailed for Lori Shaver, which, again, is the person who pays for the phone. The person the phone is in and the name the phone is in. And it says 352-431-5121, so the phone number.
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Sorry. When you're talking about you operate that facility, was that a piece of property which was neighbor to the chamber residence? Correct. And through that, did you meet Lori Shaver? Yes. And do you see her in the courtroom today? Can you identify her by something that she's wearing?
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And how long have you been in that position?
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It would not have been required on this particular examination.
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Now, what is the last phone call that was made from the device associated with 512? We need the last phone call out.
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What did you do with that firearm to begin your examination of it?
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The first step in the process of examining a firearm is to evaluate its design and its function. This is for safety purposes. So I documented the make, the model, the caliber of the firearm. I also documented how it would function.
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That's highlighted in blue at the bottom, and that's on November 7th, 2015, at 548 P.M.
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And what phone number was called on November 7th of 2015?
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What were your results of that?
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407-560-6999.
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And did you do research into what that phone number went to?
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That's where I determined, again, that this is a Cobra Enterprises firearm. It's a model shadow. It's a double action only function. It has a cylinder that holds five cartridges.
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Yes, we did. It's a landline for EdPot, which is where it might have left off.
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Now, the phone numbers and the activity that's highlighted in yellow, what phone number is the areas highlighted in yellow associated with?
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Did you test fire it?
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I did, yes.
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What's your purpose in actually firing the gun?
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The purpose of firing the firearm in the laboratory is one, to determine its function. The second is to create known test fires. These are known exemplars, bullets and cartridge cases that I know because I processed the firearm to have been fired in and from this specific firearm.
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That number is 352-431-0419, which, you know, any times we're sharing our cell phone number.
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Please introduce yourself. My name is Joseph Bray. Where do you work? I own JB Guns.
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And how do you do that?
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We would ask, at the time, we would ask people, was Flory Shaver's also a number?
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Did the firearm function as it should when you fired it?
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You also obtained that information from Verizon itself? And is that the other number back in November of 2015 that was associated with the Flory Shaver?
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Yes, it did.
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I'm assuming when you fire the gun and retrieve those test fires, you fire it into like a water canister of some sort?
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Yes, it's a large tank of water.
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Yes, on the same account as this.
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Can you go ahead and summarize the activity between the two numbers, the 5121 and the 4419 number, for the month prior, the time prior leading up to the November 7th, 2015?
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Are you then able to take those fired projectiles and compare them to other projectiles provided to you by law enforcement?
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Yes. Creating known test fires allows me to compare unknown bullets in cartridge cases to, again, exemplars that I know to have been fired from a specific firearm.
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So this would be Mike's cell phone, and these are all his incoming or outgoing calls to or from the 0419 number or his cell phone. And leading up to the day that he disappeared, there were 19 attempted or completed calls to or from Mike's phone to or from.
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Did you do that in this case?
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Yes, I did.
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What kind of markings are left on a projectile after it's fired out of the gun?
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The class characteristic markings that are left on a projectile as the result of firing would be the land and groove impressions. These are the helical grooves inside the barrel of a firearm that produce the spin to a bullet, much like we throw a football with a spin, a bullet is fired with a spin. These helical grooves have a certain number, a certain direction, and a certain width.
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What is J.D. Cox?
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And you say to or from. So this is back and forth. He's calling her, she's calling back. There's at least some entries where they actually talk. Correct. And they sell these entries that you're referring to here on these records. Do they have that duration time of one minute?
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It's a retail sporting goods firearm business.
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And those direction, width, and number will differ between firearms. There are also individual characteristics that are transferred to a bullet during the firing process. These are called striations. They're resultant of the manufacturing process in that those helical grooves are cut by a tool into the barrel of a firearm. They're unique to that firearm.
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And so some of the activity that we might see in the 5-1-2-1 number, if it is a call out to the other number of what the duration is one minute, we might not see any activity on that other numbers account. That's correct. Is there any activity on the 5-1-2-1, the number associated with Michael Shaver's account after the November 7th, 2015?
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And the IP addresses that we are going to be referencing go back to how far back?
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Where is that one?
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You also provided a projectile recovered from the stall of Michael Shaver.
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There is one incoming call.
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I'm going to go ahead and move that. What call was that?
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You know, he wasn't introduced into the United States until he was 20. Do you recognize that item first?
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So, February 17th, 2016 at 3.47 p.m., an incoming call.
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Yes, I do.
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Did you examine that projectile recovered from the skull that he just looked at?
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All right. And what was the number associated there? 352-787-2277. And did you do record, did you do research into where that phone number was associated?
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It's in Bushnell, Florida.
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Yes, I did.
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Can you describe to the jury what condition that projectile was in when you first looked at it?
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The projectile was in very rough condition, both its shape and material that was surrounding the projectile upon its receipt.
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And have you ever had an occasion to meet Lori Shaver?
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We did. We went to a loan company called Mariner Fire.
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Because of the condition of that projectile, and if you consider that projectile was located in the ground for some period of time, could that affect the markings left on that projectile by the firearm that fired? Yes. Despite the damage... the damaged condition of that projectile, were you able to determine the caliber of projectile or caliber class of the projectile?
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I'm showing you what has been entered in the evidence. It states number 29. These are the business records from Mariner Finance, and these records reflect a phone call to that 5121 number on February 17th of 2015.
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Since 2021.
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The IP addresses that we have go back to at least 2015.
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I did. I met her at an audio shop in Lake County.
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Yes, I was.
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What is my caliber or caliber class?
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0419? Yes.
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The caliber was determined to be 38 caliber class.
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And then was that also obtained through the search form?
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Through a separate search form, yes.
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Did you examine that damaged projectile to determine whether or not it couldn't have been fired from the firearm we looked at earlier, that pink and black Cobra revolver?
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I'm going to ask that you go ahead and look at those records. Are those the records associated with the second phone number associated with that account?
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Yes, sir, 0419.
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Yes, the class characteristics present on the fired bullet and the class characteristics of the firearm agreed.
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And do these records also reflect activity to or from the 5121 number belonging to Michael Shaver preceding November 7, 2015?
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Am I correct that all of the other characteristics of the gun in the bullet are consistent? You just can't say that that specific tool was fired from that gun because of the lack of individual characteristics. That is true.
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And when did you become involved with this investigation, start looking into the issues involved with this IP address and things like that?
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Yes, it is in the highlighted portion.
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And how long after November 2015 do the records that you obtained associated with Laura Shaver's phone number, do they go?
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Bottom line, the projectile could have been fired from that gun based on the consistency of all those different things we talked about, and you can't say scientifically if it actually was. That's correct. Thank you so much. I have no other questions.
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These records weren't until April 20th, 2016.
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All right. Thank you. Mr. Wiggs.
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And during that time frame between November of 2015, April of 2016, is there any attempts to call the 5-1-2-1 number associated with Michael Schaefer? Is there any calls to that phone number associated with Lori Schaefer from that 5-1-2-1 number associated with Michael Schaefer?
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And when you were there, did you overhear Ms. Shaver discussing with any other individuals the potential scale of firearms?
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Mr. Buxman started off at, at your testimony, you had received a projectile from...
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The projectile is transferred to me from the evidence section of the laboratory.
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The comparison of individual characteristics was inconclusive, correct? So that's a good summation. There was no connection between that gun there and the projectile that was delivered to you, correct?
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Now, during the course of the investigation, there was a phone number that was submitted through a Facebook message from Michael Shaver's account to Vanessa Townsend. Were you familiar with that phone number?
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And was research and attempts to look into that phone number done through search warrant as well?
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Yes, we did.
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Showing that that's what has been previously been marked for identification as stage 00. Now, on stage 43... What kind of records are reflected in that document?
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The examination resulted in the conclusion that all class characteristics were in agreement. The result of the individual comparison was inconclusive.
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These are called customer notes by Virajan.
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How many guns fit into that class?
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And what type of activity is referenced there?
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Thousands of guns, if not tens of thousands, correct.
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So it's kind of an ongoing narrative, I guess, type by a customer service representative of activity on the account. I mean, they added a feature or took away a feature, things like that.
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We were talking about double action, single action by firearms. Did you fire the projectile sample?
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February 2018.
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Does it also include information when an account holder does things such as changing a phone number?
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I was responsible for firing the test fires.
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Okay. What's the advantage, the amount of force that's required on that gun to discharge a projectile?
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And is there record activity on that Verizon account for the 5121 number being changed at any time?
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The trigger pull on this firearm was not measured.
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Okay. Any specific reason?
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That was not part of the policy or procedure for an examination of this type.
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When you got the IP address that's associated with the Facebook account, were you able to determine which service provider was linked up with those IP addresses?
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Yes, the owner of the audio shop, she was talking to him about possibly trading guns for maybe audio work. As an individual that owns a gun shop, was that of interest to you? It was. I sat back and waited for her to quit talking to the owner.
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When was that 5121 number changed?
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April 6, 2016, 5-1-2-1, which Mike's number, Doc's cell phone number was changed to 352-801-0941.
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Did law enforcement ever contact you at any time and request it?
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They did not.
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In order to have a phone number changed, that is consistent with the individual having the device itself to change the phone number. Correct. And the period of time that the phone number was sent to Vanessa Townsend, was that after that April 6, 2016 capture?
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State Attorney's Office ever contact you and request that?
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The State Attorney's Office would not contact me directly.
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Okay. When you have a double action pistol as well, you can pull the hammer back and lock it, correct? Correct.
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Not in a double action only firearm, no.
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Okay. Can you pull the hammer back, lock it, and then discharge it by the trigger?
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Now, taking you back to February of 2017, what was your position then?
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That was three days later, I believe, on April 9th.
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In a double action only firearm, no.
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How long did that 0941 number remain under Maury Shaver's account?
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Okay. Single action?
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In a single action firearm, a hammer can be pulled back and locked into position.
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That was 10 days until the date was confirmed.
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And what happened on April 16th?
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Okay. And then it can be released by a separate trigger pull, correct?
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So the number was changed again.
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Okay. So once the hammer is locked back, Does it require less force on the trigger on that type of car?
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April 16th, 2016, 0941 was changed again to 252-431-8441.
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Did you do any research into the phone number ending at 8444? Yes, sir. Your Honor, I'm showing the defense was previously marked as C6M at PP. All right, any objection? No objection. Do you recognize this document?
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That is a question that could not be answered because the trigger pull of this double action only firearm was not measured. And I do not know the trigger pull of a single action. One could or could not be heavier than the other. I would not be qualified to answer that question. Approximately 15 years in firearms examination. I don't know anything about a child pulling a trigger.
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And what is that document?
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It's a Lake County Court document. It's titled Notice of Current Contact Information.
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And who is that Notice of Contact Current Information associated with?
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It's a foreshadowing.
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And does it include her address? Yes, sir. What is that address?
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9850 Sandy Fine Road, Fairmont, Florida, 3471.
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I don't have any further questions. Thank you, Judge. All right, redirect.
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And is that the address where the skeletal remains of Michael Schabel were found underneath a fire pit in the backyard?
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Good morning.
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And what is the date of that document?
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I am Tara Mitchell.
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The July 6th, June 9th, 16th.
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What do you do for a living?
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I currently work with mental behavior at Livestream.
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And does that document also include a phone number?
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And what phone number is that?
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352-431-8444.
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Prior to that, where did you work?
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I was the manager at Mariner Finance.
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The same phone number that the number originally associated with Michael Shaver had been changed to in order to contact Vanessa Carlson and now change again 10 days after that.
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What did Mariner Finance do?
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We did personal secured and unsecured loans.
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How long did you work there?
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Yes, sir, to 8444.
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Yes, I was.
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All right, the time frame. That Mr. Wicks provided you with information relating to Nate, he thought you needed to investigate. Did he give you any information regarding Isabel Shaver?
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Nine years.
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I want to direct your attention back to November 2015. Were you working at Mariner Financial at the same capacity then?
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At that particular time, I was an assistant manager.
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Which service provider was that?
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Did Mariner Financial extend a loan to Michael Shaver in November of 2015?
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And at some point after Lori Shaver's arrest, did you interview Isabel Shaver?
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At that time, we had mailers that came out from the corporate office, and they were sent out to several different people in several different cities.
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By and large, it was CenturyLink.
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Yes, I did.
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At that time, how long was she there?
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It was in 2018, and she had just had her birthday, so I think she had just turned 12 a few days earlier.
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Can you explain to the jury kind of how that worked? Were they just kind of sent unsolicited to people's residences?
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And in the course of your training experience, have you had training about how to interview children?
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And when you went to try to obtain information from CenturyLink to associate it with any physical addresses, weren't you able to get that information?
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Not totally sure as to how corporate determined as to who they were going to send it to, but it would have something to do with their credit. And we call them LBMs, which is the loan by mail. And so they would send them out to different people.
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Were you also interviewed at the Child Advocacy Center?
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And what is the Child Advocacy?
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So it's a place where child victims or witnesses can be interviewed in a very friendly, child-friendly setting by people whose only job it is is to interview kids.
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So this is not a situation where somebody comes to your financial institution and says, hey, I need a loan. This is a financial institution reaching out to people to say, hey, I need a loan.
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And once she walked away from the owner, I went up to him and said, if you're not interested in any of this, I would be interested in possibly asking her about purchasing the firearms. And are you aware whether or not she did in fact sell any of those firearms to the audio shop? I believe she did trade one firearm to the audio shop owner. Did you end up purchasing any firearms from her?
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But to clarify, when you interviewed Isabel Shaver, where did that occur?
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Absolutely, and it made it look really good because they gave you a certain amount and all it required you to do was fill out some information on the back.
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That was at their house. Did I say I interviewed her in 2018? I interviewed her in 2020.
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If I got the year wrong, I'm sorry. But that was not done in the sheriff's office.
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Your Honor, this time the state would move into evidence states exhibit DD, as in dog, as states exhibit 29 as a business record certification and notice has been provided. Any objection? Using the process that you just described was a loan extended to Michael Shamer via mail.
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No, that was at her house. Yes, sir.
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Now, not getting into any specific things that she said at that time, did she bring up anything related to her involvement or Jeremy Townsend's involvement that required further investigation by the sheriff's office at the time she gained either of those arrogance? No, sir.
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Yes, it was.
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And how, in what form would that loan have been extended?
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A check was mailed directly to an address that was attached to his social, and that's all it would require for them to do is fill the information out on the back and submit it to a bank or deposit it.
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Are you aware that there have been discussions through Mr. Wiggs about Isabel Shaver's involvement in this case since the time that you would have interviewed her in the child advocacy interview?
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Yes, I am aware.
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So a check is sent to Michael Shaver's residence in the mail with basically a loan check.
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At the point that those statements came forward were charges already pending against Lauren Shaver?
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Any other talking of witnesses would be done through the state attorney's office at that point?
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Describe the process. How would somebody accept that loan or accept the money in that check when it was mailed to them?
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And Ms. Isabelle Shaver, are you aware, was deposed through the course of this pending case?
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They would be required to sign it on their telephone number as to how they could be reached.
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Yes, sir, I'm aware of that.
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As part of your duties, are you a firearms instructor?
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I want to show you what that is. It's a 30. And do you recognize the check that I'm showing you? Absolutely. All right. If, say, someone doesn't pay that loan back or misses payments, does the bank... have a log to show the attempts the bank made to collect that money?
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Yes, I am.
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Now, as part of any sort of firearms training or defensive tactics, are law enforcement officers or anyone else trained in a similar fashion, trained to basically try to make headshots in stressful situations?
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I was not.
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Absolutely. From the moment it is cashed, within 72 hours, we have to make contact with them.
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CenturyLink told us that they only keep records for one rolling calendar year.
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Well, we're trained, if we're using deadly force, it's to eliminate a threat. So we're trained to shoot what's called center mass, which is right in the middle of the largest target, which is the person's body.
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And is that what these documents are contained in this exhibit at 630?
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Absolutely.
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Do you recognize them?
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Absolutely.
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Okay. Are they accurate?
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Nothing further, Judge. All right, thank you. Mr. Wiggs? Thank you, Judge. Yes, sir.
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Good afternoon.
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Good afternoon.
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You replaced Lisa Doria on this case, correct?
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And to what address was that check sent?
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I didn't. I wouldn't say I replaced her. She left, and I helped out more after she left.
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9850 Sandy Pines Road, Claremont, Florida, 34711.
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You inherited the job, correct?
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When was that check mailed out to Michael Shaver's address?
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It had to be mailed before 11-30-2015.
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You graduated, my understanding, from and went to work immediately with the sheriff's office, correct?
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Now, as part of your review of the Facebook profiles, did you also obtain a search warrant in order to get the information from Lori Shaver's Facebook?
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What was done with that check to signify that the loan was accepted by whoever filled out this information at the back of the check?
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I'm sorry, you said I graduated and... You got your certificate for law enforcement.
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You went to work with ESSO, correct?
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Because there are signatures on the back of the check and phone numbers listed with the date. And what was the phone number listed on the back of the check?
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Yes, this is my first law enforcement job, yes, sir.
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You've only worked with law enforcement there, correct? That's correct, yes, sir. Okay, not to belittle you in any respect, okay? Do you have any certificates or training in digital?
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352-431-5121 Was there a date written on the back of the check signifying when it was accepted?
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No, sir. No, sir.
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And so you relied on other people within your report to gather information, correct?
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Absolutely.
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What date was that? 12-11-15 Would that information have been filled in by whoever received the check at the address? Absolutely. That's not information filled out by you or by the bank?
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Within my report to gather information?
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You were the case officer, correct?
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I was never the case officer, no, sir.
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Is your name on the incident report?
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I did supplements. I don't know what you mean by... Okay.
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Does the filling out of that information on the back of the check signify an acceptance of the loan?
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All right, sidebar, please. What are you looking at?
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I'm looking at page one at the moment.
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Absolutely.
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Did Michael Shaver have any in an account with Meritor Financial or anything?
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Are you talking about this post-it note?
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No, no. You've been handed. It looks like just a bunch of typed notes. I don't know what it is.
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Not until he cashed his check.
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What were the terms of the repayment of this loan? For instance, if the loan was accepted, what would be the monthly payments that you make?
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30 monthly payments of $122.89.
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Were any of the monthly payments made in this case regarding this loan extended to Michael Shaver? Absolutely not. All right. Was there ever any personal or phone contact from Michael Shaver to the Mariner Financial Institution regarding the repayment of this loan?
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I did, yes sir.
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notes your notes i think so i don't you bring any records with you to your deposition i think i did okay what would you have brought do you recall no i don't recall okay does that that document that you hold in your hand does it contain your name anywhere within it i'm looking your time there are three for instance Yes, sir. Come on up. Officer Dale, did you sign the probable cause on this case?
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Absolutely not.
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What was done to try to reach Michael Shaver from Mariner Financial to get this loan paid off him?
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And how many firearms and what was the price that you paid?
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First, it's solicitation calls to have them to come in, but we never made contact. And after 30 days being delinquent, it goes into collections, and we start collection calls on a daily basis.
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Yes, I did.
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Is your name in there? Yes, on the probable cause affidavit. So when I asked you earlier, did your name on any of these documents, correct?
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What do you mean by a solicitation call was made?
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when lbms the loans by mails are sent out there's really no real contact with the customer other than what is written on the back of the check so to make it more of a personal we solicit an extra 500 for coming into the bank and signing up to come over onto a mariner paper where so we're able to have better access and we'll know a little bit more about the client
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That's correct.
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Your name's on the probable cause, correct?
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Yes, it is.
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You made the decision to arrest Lori Shaver, correct?
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Showing us your previous MMR, the state's page, do you recognize those records and the thumb drive contained with them?
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I signed the probable cause affidavit. Okay.
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Is it fair to assume you were the primary officer making that decision?
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No. I signed the probable cause affidavit.
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I purchased nine in total from her, and I believe we agreed on $1,000.
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So did he tell you?
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Okay. You signed that affidavit after receiving other information from other people, correct?
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Okay. So you reach out to the person who accepted the loan and say, hey, why don't you come on into our bank?
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Yes. Yes, that's correct.
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According to the number that they put on the back of the check.
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So it was based on your conclusions that Lori Shaver was arrested, correct? Correct. You're the one that vouched for the arrest?
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Okay. When is that done in relation to the acceptance of the loan and you getting information that the loan has been accepted?
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I signed the probable cause affidavit.
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Within 24 to 72 hours, we're notified that a check has been cashed. So it automatically appears in our system of new loan by mails.
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Okay. Yes. And based on that probable cause, Lori Shaver was arrested?
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Okay. Thank you. As this case was going about, was it listed as a cold case file?
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And what kind of firearms did you purchase?
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That when you reach out for these solicitations, they come into our bank.
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No, it was not.
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That is correct.
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Okay. How long was the investigation?
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Was that done in this case? Absolutely. Was any response received by the bank from Michael Shaver?
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Well, from... March 2018 to September 2020 was when the arrest was made, so... Did you ever put it...
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There were no answering of the phone calls.
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When the time for the first payment came due, you had already indicated that no payment was made. What did the bank do or you do to try to make contact with Michael Shaver?
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cold case file we we put it on the internet so we have a section called cold case files yes and i know what you're talking about but that's the only place we had at the time to put cases to get more information but we did not determine it to be a cold case because a cold case is something in our eyes but we have nothing else no other information to go on so you weren't hot on the trail of lori shaver or any particular individual when you put that on the internet correct
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We started reaching out with the number that was on the back. We will use pre... websites where we can look up to try to find if there's any other numbers that's attached to the name.
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There was a little bit of everything. There was an AR-15. There was a few Colt revolvers, older revolvers, Maverick 88 shotgun, an old 410 bolt-action shotgun, an old FN 1900, and there was a Marlin Model 60 and I believe a Winchester 94 revolver.
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Did the bank continue to try to reach out to Michael Shaver for a lengthy period of time?
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Oh, absolutely. It doesn't charge off until 180 days.
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I don't remember exactly the time frame that happened, but I think we were waiting on more information to come in, search warrants. I don't remember exactly what day that happened. Maybe you do if you have that in front of you.
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What do you mean by charge off?
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We have no payments, so unfortunately.
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Yes, I do.
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Did I ask you this?
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Okay. Let me direct your attention specifically to February 17, 2015. Did you specifically try to call the no front rooms listed on the back of the check?
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When that was put on the Internet, were you holding any evidence, any inference that you could suggest guilt to Lori Shaver?
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I don't remember when that was put on yet. Okay. What we had at that time. Yeah, I don't know when it was put on the Internet. It was just basically to get out to the public, to get the case out in the public's eye, to get tips if anyone had any. That was our intent.
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What happened when you did that?
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A female answered the phone and stated she had just gotten that particular phone that Friday before.
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What is contained on that thumb drive?
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Basically indicating, I don't know what you're talking about. This is the wrong number. Absolutely. Did you have any personal knowledge as far as who you were speaking with?
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I had no idea.
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Was the loan eventually turned over to collections when the payments weren't made? Yes, it was. It's within the Mariner financial system, but it's turned over to a different department?
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Were you aware of any internal conflicts within the Shaver residence?
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These are Lori Shaver's Facebook records.
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At that time, after 180, it goes to a higher level.
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Michael North Shaver? Yeah, I heard of some of the witnesses described, of course, this is third party because I never spoke to Michael or Lori, but having both of them described some domestic violence incidents.
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Did anyone by the name of Lori Shaver ever contact Mariner Financial about this loan?
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If that would have happened, would there have been notes in your... Absolutely. Did you eventually speak with a Sergeant Tammy Dale from the Lake County Sheriff's Office?
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In the probable cause affidavit, was there a decision that you signed off on to arrest Lori Shaver for the charge of murder?
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Yes, I did.
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Once you spoke with Sergeant Dale, what was ultimately done with this loan?
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It eventually charged off.
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And that was your decision, correct? Correct.
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Have you reviewed it and initialed the thumb drive?
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Meaning the bank?
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I signed the affidavit.
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The bank. We could no longer do any more collections on it because in our local level.
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Okay, when you say you signed the affidavit, was somebody telling you to sign the affidavit, write murder in there, and write accessory?
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Thank you, ma'am. Thanks.
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No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I just want to make it clear that I'm not the only, I wasn't the only detective working on this. It was a group effort. Absolutely not. No, sir. Let me finish my question.
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Did the law enforcement take that check from him? No, the check is given to the bank.
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Okay, but I mean, did law enforcement get a copy of that check?
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Not what I'm saying.
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Yes. Yes, I have.
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Was that your decision?
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We do have access to it.
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Well, then that's when they have access to it. Did they come by and request a copy of the check?
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It was my decision. It was a group decision, but I signed the affidavit, yes.
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It was your group decision, but you were part of that group?
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I cannot determine at this particular time if they requested it at that time or not.
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Yes, absolutely. This is not the Declaration of Independence. We can't all sign it. So I signed it.
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Okay. You don't know that fact, all right. And did you have any video of the man in the back who sucked your child up or anything like that?
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Is all the records that Facebook sent to you with their identifying number associated on that thumb drive?
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Recall me taking your deposition? Yes, sir. Okay. Did at any time you believe when I was taking your deposition that I may be there trying to trick you, or did you assume that?
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Because it's a loan by mail, they never enter our office.
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So nobody came down to the back to your personal office, right?
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That is absolutely correct.
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Do you help the law enforcement after it took a copy of the check to do any kind of handwriting analysis?
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Yes, I did.
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Okay. And thus, if you assume such, would your... Answers may possibly be garnered.
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That's beyond my knowledge.
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Thank you.
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All right, did he redirect? No, Your Honor, as you can see. Can you please enter?
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I'm Vanessa Townsend.
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I'm sure they were. I don't recall specifically.
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And do you know what Jeremy tells you?
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Now, you, along with others, made the decision to charge Lori Shaver with the crime of second-degree... Sidebar, please. You and others evidently within the department proceeded to charge and arrest Lori Shaver with the crime of murder in the second degree, correct? Yes, sir. Okay. Do you know what the elements of murder in the second degree are?
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How do you know?
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He's my husband.
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When did you get married?
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April 12, 2008.
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And you have children together?
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In 2016, where were you working?
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Pine Ridge Elementary.
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And what was your position there?
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A teacher.
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Did you work there the whole school year of 2015, 2016? Correct. And in 2016, while you were at work, did you receive an unexpected delivery?
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In February 2017, I was one of our economic crimes detectives.
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Yes, Your Honor. Sidebar, please.
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Officer, I was asking you about the decision that you all made internally. And as to the crime of... Murder in the second degree. Are you aware of the elements?
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Yes, it is.
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Sidebar, please. Please proceed. Did you receive an unexpected delivery?
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I can't quote them, but generally, yes. Pardon me? I can't quote the statute book, but generally, yes.
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And what was that delivery?
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Your Honor, this time the statement HH into evidence as 36?
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And those flowers come with a car?
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Your Honor, may I approach? Yes, sir. Showing what fence was previously marked as a specific tee.
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Okay. What are the elements for the crime of second degree murder?
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So unlawful taking of a human life, not premeditated, obviously.
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Judge, we have filed a motion with respect to this. Please approach.
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And at some point, did you reach out and tell law enforcement about these firearms that you had purchased?
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I'm sorry?
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I said obviously not premeditated.
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Okay. Okay. Tell me, so there's a death, correct? Yes. By another individual, correct? Yes. Anything that surrounds the nature of the killing?
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I'm going to go ahead and ask that you cut along the top here and just take a look at the card that is inside. It is. It is. I did. All right.
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Can I have a statute book?
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I can't quote it. No, I can't.
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Okay. And you understand that all elements must be established?
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Absolutely, yes, sir. Pardon me? Yes, sir.
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When you went through this case, did you consider elements or issues of self-defense, whether there were any?
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Objection is overruled. State's T will be entered in the evidence of state's number 30.
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The car that came with those flowers, did that include a message?
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What do you mean, did I consider them?
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And then you go ahead and read that message to the jury.
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Yeah. Well, there was a death.
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That's okay.
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I'm unaware of any.
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Ms. Dow says it's a difficult day for you.
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Okay. You were aware that there was a death. Did it enter your mind that possibly there was an issue of self-defense involved?
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It is. It says roses are red, violets are blue, my wife is a whore, your husband is too. Sorry about this. Check your Facebook message. We need to talk. Mike.
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But I'm unaware of any.
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Okay. Did you investigate to determine whether or not self-defense was plausible in this case?
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I did, yes, sir. After I saw the news coverage about the missing person, I recognized the house and Ms. Shaver. And I reached out to a friend that worked at Sumter County.
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35. Yes, sir. Any objection? To our motion on the digital data? Yes, sir. Has this been raised before? All right. And the motion, the objection is overruled.
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Now, up until this point, have you ever had any interactions with this particular Mike or a Michael Shaver?
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I'm unaware of any. No one made a self-defense claim. Michael was shot in the back of the head. I don't know of any self-defense. No one made that claim.
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Up until this point, had you noticed any messages from a Facebook profile identified as Michael Shaver prior to receiving those flowers? No. Up until this point, did you have any knowledge or that your husband was potentially having an affair?
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Okay. Well, you wouldn't expect me to come in and make it, correct?
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No. I would expect someone to make it if they acted in self-defense. That's how it normally occurs.
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So let me ask you then, if you see certain elements but nobody suggests in self-defense, do you just presume guilt and make the arrest?
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When did you receive that card and those flowers?
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Okay. Did you do anything, therefore, to see whether or not there was any issue of self-defense?
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In April, April 11th, 2016.
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And the time frame leading up to you receiving those flowers, was there ever any time that your husband was sleeping anywhere other than the home, which would have given you concerns that he was having some sort of actuarial affair?
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If no one suggests self-defense, how would I know they're self-defense?
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And I didn't see any evidence of self-defense. And normally in self-defense, you don't bury the body in a backyard. I've never seen that before anyway.
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Sleeping elsewhere?
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There was testimony, I think, that you provided about address changes, correct?
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So you always came home at night, he was always around?
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After you received that card, did you in fact go, well, did you have a Facebook profile at that point?
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Earlier on direct examination. You looked at some documents, saw a certificate of an address change?
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And after receiving that card and that message, did you go onto your Facebook profile and realize that there had been, you know, a friend request or some sort of messages from Michael Shamer's Facebook account? I did. And once you saw that request had come in and those messages had come in, what did you do specifically as it relates to FaceTime?
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I think it was just declaring that was her address at that time. Okay. I think is what that was.
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Did the address change have anything to do with the homicide?
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I don't know what it had to do with it. It was a court document.
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Pardon me?
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I don't know what it had to do with it. It was a court document declaring that was her address at that time and phone number.
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I contacted the person back.
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Okay. Would that suggest to you a homicide? No. Okay. You also testified about documents of utilities in somebody's name, correct?
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Did you accept this friend request to be able to look at these messages?
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And did you go through the messages that had been sent to you up until the point that you had received those files? Yes. I'm going to go ahead and show defense. States exhibit EE.
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Cell phone bills? Yes, sir.
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Okay. Would that suggest a homicide?
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Just a cell phone bill by itself? No.
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Okay. Is a cell phone bill with anything else going to suggest a homicide?
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Now, similar question. Have you gone through all the data that's contained on there?
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Who can escape? All right, sidebar.
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I mean, it's the contents of the record, not the cell phone bill.
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Come on up.
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I'm showing you states EE.
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Those records don't suggest a homicide in any form or any manner, do they?
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The cell phone bill? Yeah. It's what they show and not by themselves. No, of course not. It's the totality of everything.
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And ultimately, did you relay this information to the Lake County Sheriff's Office?
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Do you recognize that thumb drive?
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Your investigation never uncovered any kind of financial motive as a motive for any homicide, right?
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What does that thumb drive contain?
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The messages from the Facebook account.
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And did that contain all the messages that you received from Michael Shaver's Facebook account, including any screenshots, screenshots of text messages, these Facebook messages we're referring to here, along with photographs that may have been sent to you?
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Did you put that fact in your report?
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That we didn't uncover a financial motive?
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That wasn't in there?
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In my report or my PC affidavit?
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In the report.
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Yes, to my knowledge.
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And how do you recognize that that is what is contained on that thumb drive?
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That we didn't uncover a financial motive? No.
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Do you think it's important for the jurors and everybody that you document all facts, including exculpatory evidence? Yes, absolutely. Okay. That would be an exculpatory factor, correct? No financial motive in this case.
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I dated and initialed it.
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And you reviewed that information before doing so? Correct. Your Honor, at this time, the statement states EE into evidence at, I believe, number 31.
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I did, yes, sir.
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Yes, sir. Objection is overruled. States EE will be admitted into evidence at states number 31.
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Well, I mean, I wouldn't put in there, I would have to put then, I didn't uncover a financial motive, I didn't uncover this motive, I didn't uncover that motive. So I can't list every motive that I didn't uncover.
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Now, I want to start with the actual Facebook messages you received from Michael Shaver's account. Showing defense states FF.
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Nothing further at this time.
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That's often a primary factor in a homicide, is it not?
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And did that have information associating it with Flory Shade?
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Judge said objection. Yes, sir.
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Well, you don't have to prove motive, but yes, if you have one, it would be a primary factor.
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Mr. Price, the objection is overruled.
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Showing you with the previous report, the six documents. What are those documents?
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And in your investigation, you discovered that the body had been dead through your correspondence with other witnesses for several months to years, correct?
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Mr. Wiggs?
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The messages I received through Facebook account.
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I believe that is what the K-Phil lab said.
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Okay, so we've heard testimony in this case about people getting emails on this date and the last time Michael Shaver showing up at work on this date or that date. Those don't suggest homicide, do they?
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Yes, sir. Mr. Bryant? Was there a male with Ms. Shaver?
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And those are actually also contained on the thumb drive that we just talked about, this is a pretty valid version of that. Right. Bureau, at this time, states FF into evidence as states exhibit number 32.
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I mean, well, his cause and manner of death is what suggests homicide.
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I mean, the fact somebody doesn't show up for work is not an element suggesting that Lori Shaver murdered someone in particular day, correct?
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Over defense objection, states FF will be admitted into evidence.
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Yes, it did. What kind of information was that? The same information. It will have the vanity name, which is a unique identifier that is set up whenever the account is established, along with phone numbers and e-mail addresses.
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Now, I'm going to go ahead and start publishing some of these, looking at the blue numbers on top, page 2447. Is that where the first message that you would ever see from the Michael Shamer Facebook?
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Now, you understood, pursuant to the requirements, that the death had to have been the criminal act of Lori Shaver, correct?
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That's correct.
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Okay. Or somebody acting on her behalf, correct? Correct. Now, you weren't present during the death of Michael Shaver, correct?
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And first of all, what was the date of that message?
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February 25th, 2016.
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No, I was not.
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And what was the content of that message?
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You can't testify what happened during that incident, can you?
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Hello, Vanessa. I know you don't know me, but I keep sending you a friend request because I really need to talk with you about something important. I am not a creep. I promise. I'm looking to confirm some information concerning my wife.
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Can't testify who was present, correct?
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There was, yes, sir.
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Can't testify who was any aggressor, correct?
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Can't testify whether or not somebody was exercising self defense, correct?
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Now, moving on into page 2446. Are there messages in 2447? We will start on page 2447. Did you receive any sort of follow-up message there on April 5th of 2007? The message there for April 5th, what is that statement?
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Neither can you testify as to who if anybody shot a guy.
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I wasn't there, so no, sir, if that's what you mean.
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When you say economic crimes detectives, what kind of crimes would you investigate?
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Dark hair?
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And yet such facts. are imperative as essential elements to the crime of homicide, correct? That the criminal death occurred by a particular individual, correct?
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So April 5th, 2016, it says, I don't think you are seeing my messages. I just sent you something. Hope you contact me when you receive.
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Okay. Those are essential elements. that are not revealed in any report, correct?
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I don't remember his hair color. I just remember a taller, in-shape man with her.
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And moving on to the seeing page, is there a message then from April 9, 2016? April 9, 2016, please contact me at 352-801-0941.
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Well, I never witnessed any homicide. I've never witnessed a homicide.
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But those facts are not gleaned by other evidence within this investigation, correct?
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And what is the next message that you receive after getting that phone call? April 11, 2016.
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I believe that they are. Okay.
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Now, there was a point in time in which law enforcement responded to the residents in reference to a well-being check, correct?
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And what is that message?
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Okay. Were you there for that? No, I was not. Okay. Do you know how many officers were there?
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I received multiple. It says, your special delivery is to arrive today. Hope to finally hear back from you.
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I don't. I think at least two, but there may have been more. I don't know.
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The special delivery message, was that close in time to when you received the flowers?
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Now, when law enforcement went there for a well-being check, you can't make any declaration they were hot on the trail and were making headway on that case, correct?
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Did it include pictures of herself, her children, her home, things of that nature?
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Kind of sad? Mm-hmm. Okay. How high? Do you remember?
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Is that that same day?
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After you accepted the friend request, did you start communicating with this Facebook profile identified as Michael Schaefer?
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And in fact, they went to the residence. As a consequence of a call from Scott Amatuchio, correct? Yes, sir. Mr. Amatuchio never indicated he had witnessed a crime, correct?
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And in the course of that, did you receive any sort of screenshots of text messages between your husband and Lori Shafer?
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No, he didn't.
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Yeah, he was working on a suspicion, correct? That something may have happened at that house.
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Did you also receive photographs that showed your husband with Ms. Shafer?
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I guess you could call it that, yes, sir.
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Yeah, because he hadn't seen his friend in some time, correct?
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He had other suspicions, but yes, including that.
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The phone number that was placed in that Facebook record, did you reach out and contact that individual?
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Mr. Amatuchio stated he hadn't seen his dear friend for some years, correct?
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And how did you do so?
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I do not. I just remember he was quite a bit taller than she was.
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Since the end of 2015.
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I tried to call it.
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Did that person ever answer the phone?
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Did your ears go up when you heard that he hadn't seen his friend for several years? What his relationship was with Mr. Shaver? Did that spark your suspicion at all?
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So after asking you to call, they never picked up?
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Correct. They texted me back.
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And were you ever able to talk on the phone with the person that had given you that phone number?
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Yes, it did.
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I wasn't involved in the case at that time.
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I'm sure I do. It's been previously been marked as state's exhibit GG. Do you recognize the state?
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Okay. If you were involved in the case at that time, would that raise some suspicion in your mind?
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And how far back does that activity go?
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I don't know. Okay. I mean, but it quickly went from one person hadn't seen him to several people hadn't seen him. Okay.
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And what is state's GG?
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Text message.
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And is that the text message that you reached out or received back from that phone number you just stated?
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So it became a numbers game?
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Your words, not mine, but one person hadn't seen him, and then his family hadn't seen him, and then no one. We couldn't find anyone who had seen him.
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That's the one I received back.
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Yeah. Taller than me?
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Do you know what his relationship was with his family?
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33. Objection is overruled.
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Specifically, no.
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But I know the point is people he worked with, actually no one had seen him. No one. People who saw him at work, no one since the end of 2015.
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Now, also during the period of time that this was going on, did you obtain Lori Shaver's phone number?
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I believe 2015 at least.
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What's that, sir?
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Did you reach out and send a text to that number?
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Taller than me?
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Did you correspond with Ms. Shaver through that phone?
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Okay. My understanding was your position that Lori was arrested because it was your feeling she was key in covering up the body that was found on the property, correct?
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I texted, but I never received a message back.
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I am showing what's previously been marked for identification as States 4RR. How did you get Lori Shaver's phone number? Was it included in the screenshots on the text messages that you received?
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I would say so.
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And that would have been the timeframe that you obtained the warrant for?
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That's part of it.
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Okay. When you made that conclusion, did you reach any particular conclusion based on any physical evidence that Lori knew he was buried there?
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Was he introduced to you at all?
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I don't remember if it was text message or Facebook, but it was given to me through one of those two.
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I'm showing you what's been previously been marked for identification as States 4RR.
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I'm sorry, did you say that Lori knew he was buried there?
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Yes, I do.
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Physical evidence, no, sir. Pardon me? No, sir. Physical evidence, no.
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And is that a screenshot of text that you sent to Lori Shaver's phone? That's correct. You're right. This time the statement seeks RRR into evidence of states number 34. Any objection?
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Okay. So you had no evidence to suggest that Lori knew his body was there, but basically she was just the closest one to the body, correct?
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All right. Over defense's objection, states RRR will be admitted into evidence of states number 34.
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That's part of it, but not all of it.
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Okay. So she's closest to the body. She gets arrested.
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I don't recall.
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And the amount of information on that thumb drive, how is that in relation to the records from Michael Schumer?
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Okay. Now, do you happen to know whether or not any of these guns were tested by law enforcement?
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Okay. Will you say that's part of it?
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During the time frame that you were corresponding with... The individual utilizing the Michael Shaver Facebook account, did they encourage you to get a divorce?
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Well, that is part of it. It was on her property and his property under a fire pit that she built, but that's not the only reason she was arrested.
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Well, what was it? What else did I miss that you can fill me in on that was factored into that decision?
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Yes, they did.
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Did they make any offers to you in relation to that?
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I don't know what you mean, offers.
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Well, she was the last person seen with him alive. That means she murdered him.
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I'm sorry. Did they bring out matters of a divorce attorney?
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Yes, they did. They recommended one.
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Let's stop there.
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We are taking each thing I'm going to say and ask, does that mean she murdered him? Each thing, no, by itself, no. Never have arrested her for any one thing I'm going to say. No, sir. No. So he's the last to see him.
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Now, ultimately, when you got this information, did you confront your husband about it?
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At that time, did you both decide to stay together, married, and in the relationship?
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Does that mean she murdered him?
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By itself, no.
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Okay. Let's go to the next issue. What's the next issue?
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When did that process and that period of time begin?
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For the end of April, May.
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So she was the last person she left with him. The two of them left together. Last person to see him that we know of on planet Earth alive. She immediately started lying about his whereabouts. Okay, stop.
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And after that period of time, was there ever instances where Mr. Townsend left and found an unknown without the police to say that you weren't aware of her in that time frame? No. No further questions at this time? All right, Mr. Wicks? I don't have any questions. Thank you, Judge.
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Significantly larger.
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Right there. Is Lori sitting here today charged with lying? No. Okay. Is that an element to the crime of murder? No. Okay. What other factor did you rely upon?
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She really started lying about his whereabouts to everyone. She took two and a half years lying about to everyone his whereabouts, which delayed his friends and family reporting him missing, which delayed discovering his body, which delayed discovering his homicide and investigating his homicide. I don't know who that would benefit other than the person who Killed him and put him in the ground.
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Based on the activity that you saw, was she a more frequent poster on Facebook than the Michael Schumer account? Yes. Okay. Part of those records that are already in evidence, does Facebook maintain all of those IP addresses associated with that?
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Yes. Right over here in the black blazer.
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As far as I'm aware, they were not.
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We'll stop for a second. You initially began your testimony saying that you were aware there were issues at the Shaper family, correct? Yes. That there were tensions within that family, correct?
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Okay. Were any of these guns returned to you?
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Yes. Did it enter your mind, considering those facts, that maybe Ms. Shaper was happy he was gone?
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Well, that could be, except that he wasn't gone. He was dead and buried under a fire pit.
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Well, he wasn't there bothering her?
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But he wasn't gone. He was murdered under a fire pit.
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Do you have evidence that Uri Shaver placed Mr. Shaver under that fire pit?
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Well, everything I'm listening to you is what led me to conclude that no one else did.
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I'm sorry.
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No, just everything I'm listening.
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Everything you're listening to. Okay. And as one of the agents on this case, you reviewed what was happening on that fire pit, correct? Correct.
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What do you mean, returned to me?
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Okay. And you have personal knowledge that not one single item in that fire thing linked Lori Shaver to that?
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Physical evidence, you're correct, yes.
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Okay. There's no forensics, correct? Correct. Does that factor into your decision to charge Ms. Shaver with homicide? Correct, yes. The fact there was no connective link?
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After law enforcement had done whatever they had to do with them. Did anybody tell you that we don't need these?
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Yes, but by that logic, then we can never charge anyone.
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You think?
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Well, by that logic, yes. There's no evidence against anyone. There's no forensic evidence. There's no anyone DNA in there.
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For instance, do homicides occur when people leave eyes with fake events on them? Yes. Okay. Do they leave a gun registered in their name where holistics link up to that gun?
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Okay. Were those present in this case? No. So when you say you could never charge somebody with such an offense, okay, that's not an accurate statement, is it?
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Well, you're making it sound as if there's no DNA in that pit with his body, which there wasn't. Okay. Then we can't charge anyone.
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Let me ask you, was there any DNA on his physical body?
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Any tears from her?
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I had already sold the guns long before law enforcement found out about them.
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Yes, they do.
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From no one, no. Okay.
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The word tears found in the pit, right?
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Not foreign to him.
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You don't know about that?
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Not that we could test on anyone else that can compare to anyone else.
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And now, does that mean every single time somebody just pulls up Facebook, scrolls, looks at a picture, does something like that, that that activity is going to be referenced on those IP logs?
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So Lori's closest, so Lori gets charged, correct?
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All I'm saying is, by your logic, if we find no physical evidence in with his body, we can't charge anyone, which would mean we could never charge anyone. So, I mean, I think you would agree that with his body being on their property, it would have to be someone who knows him. He wasn't robbed on I-Drive by a stranger and they brought him back to his property and buried him.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You don't know who was residing in that residence, do you? Well, I wasn't there, but I know who says... You know how the altercation occurred, correct?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Different types of fraud, credit card fraud, identity theft, sometimes things that deal with computers and electronics.
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So you had sold them? Yes, sir. Okay, when law enforcement spoke to you. But you recall this mail with Ms. Shaver, correct?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I wasn't there.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you see or uncover any photographs of Lori Shaver having anything to do with the patio itself?
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The fire pit or the concrete, because those were built at separate times.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you see anything, any images or photographs of Lori pouring the patio?
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Not pouring the patio.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Anything to do with the patio?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I think she had some photographs of Bags of cement on her Facebook, yes.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Correct. Okay. And where did you see those images?
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On her Facebook.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So Lori Shaver is going to pour a patio, and she's got on Facebook photos of the concrete she's going to do it with, correct? Correct.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I saw photos of bags of concrete on our Facebook, yes.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you make a note of that in your incident report? This may constitute exculpatory evidence suggesting this person didn't know the body was in there?
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Typically, no.
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I do, yes, sir.
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I don't know what you mean.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You usually go about advertising that they're going to put a patio over a body, do you think?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know. This is my first case with a patio over a body. It was in my report. So whether you call it exculpatory or inculpatory, I don't know.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What types of things register on the IP log history that you get from these records?
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Okay, thank you.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In fact, you would acknowledge that that doesn't suggest guilt. What doesn't suggest guilt? The fact that she had anything to do with the patio and that the concrete had been posted.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you ever know Michael Shaver?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mr. Wright, when did you first see Scott's phone, Mr. Shaver?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Here's what I find out about that is she had a five-acre property and she put it over his body. So that would...
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you know what the ground looked like before?
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Before what?
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The concrete was lying. No. Do you know what was going there?
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I was told a duck pond.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you put that in the report as potential exculpatory evidence?
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It's in the report about the duck pond. It's not in my part of the report.
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make any notations that that would be evidence potentially for consideration that what would be evidence pardon me that what would be evidence i'm sorry that this patio was put there for a reason specific not necessarily to cover up a crime i i don't know her reason for putting it there right correct but you made the decision one of the people made the decision to arrest lori shaver yes implicating
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sure. Login activity is one of the big ones. Anytime anybody accesses Facebook on their device, whether it's a phone or a computer, Facebook will log that IP address. Whenever messages are sent, photos are shared, statuses are updated, Facebook will log that IP address for that activity.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Date-wise, I believe it was December 5th to like the 8th, somewhere right in there.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
she had knowledge of the body being there correct well yes yes knowledgeable of the fact that there was another ulterior purpose for the existence of the ground prior correct i'm sorry say that again i apologize and at the same time you knew that the ground had another purpose intended purpose correct we were told that mike was making a duck pond correct yes we were told that
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, it's my understanding that you have a belief that the crime can't be committed just on a bare suspicion, correct? Of guilt. Right, yes. I mean, that's your feeling, correct? Some bare inference, correct?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yet, when you arrested Ms. Shaver, there was no evidence that you held. establishing any knowledge on her part that the body was under the patio, correct?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Well, to me, her building the patio over the body was, what did it for me? If you call that exculpatory, that's our agree to disagree moment, I guess.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You disagree with that statement?
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That her building the patio over his body means she did not know it was there, is what you're saying?
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Okay, have you made a statement inconsistent with that in the past, is what I'm asking you?
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Inconsistent with what?
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What you just stated. I'm referring you to your deposition. I'm going to refer you to page 30, line 14 through 16. You'll read that.
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Nothing wrong with that. All right, thank you. Morning. Please introduce yourself to the jury.
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14 through 16.
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Question, but how do you know that Ms. Shaver, back to my question, had anything to do with filling in that pit? Answer, with actually putting the dirt in. Question correct. Answer, I don't. So you don't?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
whether or not she had any knowledge of any body in the ground or had any partaking in the placing of the body in the ground, correct? By your prior statement.
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And does the actual IP logs contain information, not only that the account was accessed, but the type of activity that was done?
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With filling the pit?
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That she had any knowledge that the body was in the pit or partaked in placing the body in the pit.
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Hi, my name is Travis. I'm Lori's husband.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can I see that again? I don't think that's what that said. I just want to see it again. I apologize. May I?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It's okay.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was reading rather than paying attention. My brain will only do one thing at a time.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's fine. It's late afternoon. Okay.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I mean, without reading the rest for context, it says had anything to do with filling in that pit.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And I said with actually putting the dirt in.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The question was, but how do you know that Ms. Shaver, back to my question, had anything to do with filling in that pit?
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And are you a convicted felon?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It doesn't sound like you're asking, did she know the body? No, so let's go further. Okay.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
With actually putting the dirt in there, you ask me, and I say, correct. And your answer? I don't. Correct? So it's not a matter that the pen is in her yarn. You know there's got to be some evidence to establish that this shaver had knowledge of the body and the ground, correct?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How many times have you been convicted of felony?
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It doesn't sound like that's what you're asking me there without reading more context. I apologize. But you're asking about filling in the pit?
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Yes, it does.
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Now, Mr. Camuccio was asking you about information gleaned from myself. or anybody else. Did Mr. Camuccio relay to you any conversations and facts that relate to him about the minor child?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I have two charges against me. Two convictions. And...
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I'm showing you what's previously marked by identification as States II and JJ. And what are those exhibits?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Just general facts of her story, yes.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, and a revelation of what had come forward? Yes, sir. From that minor? Yes, sir. When you met the child at child services,
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Had you ever met Travis Filmer? I have. Now, when did your business move into that property?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The Children's Advocacy Center?
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Yeah. It wasn't that the child misrepresented anything. The child didn't want to speak to you, correct?
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I didn't speak to her at the Children's Advocacy Center. She was interviewed by the professional interviewers.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Would it help refresh your recollection of that if I showed you your judgment, sir? Sure. So do you remember this case? Yes. Yes. One felony there? Yep. In this case, two felonies.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And no information was gained from that child, correct? About... Anything. Did she relate to them? One story that changed from another.
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I mean, that's a broad statement. She didn't say anything about... Shooting Mike.
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Right. She didn't say anything about anything, did she?
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What do you mean she didn't say anything about anything?
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Do you know anything that the child did?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sidebar, please. This minor child didn't fail to provide a statement. The child didn't give you any statement, correctly?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
These are the IP logs for each of the Facebook accounts.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
sounds like you're saying she gave a statement okay yeah is the statement materially different or did the child just say she did it was personal materially different than what what was later revealed was materially different in that she did not say at the children's advocacy centers that she shot her dad if that's what you mean she didn't want to talk about it correct About?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The event.
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About shooting her dad?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I mean, they didn't ask her, did you shoot your dad?
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About some things, yes.
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Did the state converse with you at any point in time about any conversations that I may have communicated to the state from that child?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And specifically, does IHI match up with the IP logs for Michael Shaver? Yes, it does. And states JJ, is that the IP and log history for Merritt Shaver? Yes, it is. Right. This time the statement states JJ and evidence that states 37. Stay on check. Sir, objections are ruled. Can you first pull up Michael Shaver's IP log history and just tell the jury how many pages?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not in detail, just generally what she said. Yes, sir.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And whatever the state revealed to you, did you follow up on whatever was communicated to you by the state?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No. By that time, you know, Lori had been arrested and charged, and the state would be responsible for it. If they wanted me to interview her, I would have, but it's my understanding they deposed her.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In this case, there was no—we've covered the grave— But there was no evidence that you're aware of that was unturned from the residents implicating Lori Shaver?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you've testified previously that you take the position that there must be some evidence, not it's simply a bare suspicion?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And you understand there was no late ballistics, correct?
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No ballistics, you said?
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Yes, sir, I understand.
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You were aware of that, correct?
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Was there any DNA within the residence that linked Lori Shaver to this crime? No, sir. There was no digital device recovered in this case, was there?
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So when I was 18, that was two?
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You would agree with me that creates, to a degree, a lack of evidence?
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No physical evidence.
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No physical evidence, correct?
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So you have a total of three?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you learn in this investigation how Facebook, maintains or takes care of their IP information?
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No, I didn't do anything with IP.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Did anybody supply you information about the IP information from Facebook?
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Okay, yep.
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I don't remember learning anything about IP.
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Okay. Had Lori Shaver posed as Michael Shaver on Facebook, you would agree that doesn't mean Lori Shaver murdered Michael Shaver?
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Do you agree with that?
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By itself, no.
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No. Okay. Do you know whether or not anybody in the house could have posed as Michael Shaver?
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Well, it only benefited Lori.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. You were supplied information about Jeremy Townsend, correct? Correct. And you were aware that Jeremy Townsend was in a relationship with... For some term with Lori, correct? Correct. And if Jeremy Townsend was in the residence, did it enter your mind that possibly Jeremy Townsend had been on the router and the computer?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, you said you're Lori Schieber's husband.
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Well, why would Jeremy Townsend try to break up his own relationship with his wife?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, let me ask you. You can't segregate some emails correctly. to the exclusion of all these mails. For instance, you can't say, this is from Jeremy, this is from Lori, this may be from Jeremy, this may be from Lori, correct?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know what you mean.
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How did you become involved in the investigation into the death?
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Did you identify her?
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You know whether or not you have evidence that every single email document that's been put into evidence is a Lori Shaffer exclusive.
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Do you mean Facebook?
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Facebook is seized.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
that every single one came from Lori exclusively. So again, if I say no, then by what you're suggesting, both Lori and someone else, potentially Jeremy, was pretending to be Mike, then sure, two people could be pretending to be Mike.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You would agree with me. That's a reasonable inference, correct?
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Lori's right there.
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I don't think so, but... Okay.
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The other individual was involved in the homicide.
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And when you see her, is she Savannah?
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I don't know. I don't know.
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You never looked at anything, any accounts with Jeremy Townsend, correct?
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I didn't, no.
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Did anybody?
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I don't think so.
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Did you meet with anybody from Facebook or CenturyLink?
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Do you know whether any of these records are linkable, connected to one particular person, location, or device?
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The second.
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No, I don't know.
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Do you know how long Facebook saves IP addresses?
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I didn't deal with IP addresses at all, sir.
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Pardon me?
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I did not deal with IP addresses at all.
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And how did you meet Ms. Schieber?
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Is there any information in your report dealing with that?
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I don't think in my report. I didn't deal with IP addresses.
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Did you talk to, who was the IP investigator? What's his name? They just testified. Do you know?
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I'll put in the number at the top.
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Detective Strickland, Corporal Niles Strickland? Yeah.
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Did you talk to Strickland about his findings?
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I'm sure we talked, yes, sir.
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I met Ms. Filmer through my brother. He... He knew her from the gym, and he introduced us at her residence at a get-together that he had put together with his now current wife.
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about revolving IPs?
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We talked, yes, sir, but I didn't deal with it. I didn't research that at all. Yes, I signed the probable cause.
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Sure. The Michael Shaver IP logs for Facebook span 13 pages.
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And you factor in other people's findings as well, correct?
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You testify on behalf of the state about and I think I covered this, but about utilities being listed in Lori's name, correct?
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The cell phone bill?
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Well, utilities, I think, on the residence, correct? And other information?
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Earlier today?
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Correct. Do you know how long they've been listed in Lori's name? Earlier today, I talked about the cell phone bill. Okay. Do you know how long that's been in her name or if it was ever in Michael Shaver's name?
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The Maury Shaver Facebook account, how long?
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If I had the records, I might.
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Okay. Did you, in your investigation, go back to discern if they were ever in Michael's name?
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We, again, we asked for, I think we got from, whatever date we got from, I don't have in front of me, but from the dates that I had, it was not in Michael's name.
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Okay, so you just assumed because they were in Lori's name, something happened.
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No, I don't see what you're saying there. No, sir, I didn't. A lot of husbands and wives have their cell phones in one person's name.
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Now, you didn't look into the history of Mr. Townsend, is my understanding, because you felt it was years later and a lot of the records had been gone or were gone in that time frame, correct?
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Are you talking about Facebook?
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Facebook records.
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I don't know why they didn't.
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Pardon me?
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I don't know why they didn't. I didn't deal with Jeremy.
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Page 45 of your deposition. Okay.
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Now, in order to assess the jury with your testimony regarding the information that was contained in those IP logs, was a summary prepared of the information contained in those logs?
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Sorry, page 45? Page 45.
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The question was asked of you. Did you ever look into the history of Mr. Townsend? Page 45, line 13. Okay. Page 14. In your response?
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Okay, yeah. You also have to remember that a lot of what we were doing was years after, you know, a lot of records that would be requested were gone because of the time frame.
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Okay. So, Lori Shaver's records were unreliable. It could be like that. It could be dropped before the court. You're mine. But Mr. Townsend's were unreliable, correct?
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I didn't say unreliable, but... Is that what you said? It said were gone, didn't it say?
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Unreliable?
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Oh, I'm sorry. My memory's unreliable, sir.
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Well, it's afternoon. I'm tired, too.
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And when was that get-together?
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I'm sorry. I know I just read it.
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45 line through 18. It says... You want to read that aloud?
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I will. You also have to remember that a lot of what we were doing was years after, you know, a lot of records that we requested were gone because of the time frame.
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Okay. So, Mr... Townsend's records were not available. They were gone for events occurring at the same time, correct?
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I don't know. I didn't deal with Mr. Townsend at all.
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Late January 2016, I believe.
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That was the answer you supplied, correct?
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Yes, sir, I did.
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And did you speak to Kendall Davidowski?
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Okay. And who was she?
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She, at one time, dated Mike Shaver.
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Okay. Did you look at her computer?
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Her digital data? no and that again was because years had gone by no and hers wasn't available i don't no i don't think that's why i refer you to page 61 line 10 through 12. again this is a couple years afterwards so a lot of things are lost but i felt like we were comprehensive in what we did okay so you didn't look at misstated house fees because of age correct
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And why did your brother put together a gathering at her house?
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Assuming that's what we're talking about. That was your answer, correct? I don't know what you asked me there, but yes, okay.
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That's correct.
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If that's the question you asked me, you just had me read the answer. But yes, okay.
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Having brought Jeremy Townsend to your attention, you were advised, I believe, that this man had been in the military, correct?
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Yes, it was.
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I'm aware that he was.
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Okay. Special forces?
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Specifically, what types of IP addresses were summarized for this process?
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That's what I heard.
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Okay. And yet, still, that didn't trigger anything in your mind as to maybe the dispositional attitude or mindset of Jeremy Townsend to look into, correct?
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We did look into him.
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Okay. You can't say you looked into this man in depth, did you?
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He said it was something for work, a get-together for work.
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We did look into him, yes, sir.
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We did look into him, yes, sir.
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Did you look into him in depth?
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I believe so.
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You believe so? Yes. You never went through any financial records of Mr. Townsend, did you? No. And we just heard your testimony a moment ago that his Facebook data was not looked into because you perceived it as too age old and insufficient to be able to evaluate, correct?
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Sure. I was asked to start getting bank records, financials from the different people that are involved and to review those records as well as social media.
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Yeah, Ms. Shavers was, correct?
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Were you aware of any time that either your brother or his now wife was looking at this shit?
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We looked at hers, yes, sir.
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Right. Now, let's talk about the fire pit in the house. You are aware that there's a considerable distance between the house and that apartment, correct?
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We did a comparison based on IP addresses for both Michael Shaver and Lori Shaver's Facebook activity that were shared IP addresses. Those were IP addresses that hit both of the accounts.
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I don't know what you call a considerable distance, but yeah. We did. I don't know the distance, but yes.
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Did it factor into your mind before you signed that probable cause affidavit that somebody had to give the body to the client?
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Did it factor in? the physical strength of any and all possible suspects yes okay do you know the physical abilities of miss shaver at that date and time meaning what her physical abilities i know her approximate weight i know that everyone said she was athletic she went to the gym muscular is how she was described to me
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Did you look at the grave site, evaluate the depth, and think about the height of the individual and anybody that may be?
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At that time, no.
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I was told it was about three feet deep. I never saw it.
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When did they look at it?
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Did you link that up in your mind possibly with Mr. Townsend versus Ms. Shaver?
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Yes, and I fully believe Ms. Shaver could have drug a body, presumably on a tarp, across grass. That distance to the grave, yes.
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And reaching that conclusion that you just did, did you ask for any specific analysis on the tarp to see if there was any chlorophyll or any ingrained soil within the tarp that would suggest movement by Ms.
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I think his wife was there. She was there sometime before that, I guess.
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Chlorophyll, you mean from grass? From grass, yes. No, sir, no.
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Did you do that?
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As this was a trial exhibit, who actually prepared the summary?
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Did you point that out in your probable cause affidavit?
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And I believe when we discussed this, it was your position that really this case could be evaluated just based on common sense.
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I don't know if those are my words. I don't recall.
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Okay. I'll refer you to your deposition.
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It's a line 51. Excuse me, bottom, page 5, line 1, I think it is.
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Page 50, line 1?
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I think it's page 50, and carrying on to page 51.
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Oh, okay. I think at some point common sense has to come into play.
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The state attorney's office.
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Okay. So that was really the fact that you relied upon it and signed that affidavit, correct?
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So she was living there before that time frame in 2016? Correct. When did you and Ms. Shaver start dating?
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Now, as you went through both sets of IP logs, how many different IP addresses did you find that both the Michael Schaber account and the Lori Schaber account shared? There were 13 shared IP addresses. Now, if someone were to connect to their home wine lot, and we have multiple people in that home using that home wine lot, would they all register the same IP address? Yes, they would.
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I mean, again, this is one line in an entire defo. Go ahead, read it. How much of it do you want me to read?
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Well, was that a fact that you were lying for? I mean, yeah, I'm sure. Okay, okay. Because we know there was no feudal down in the house. We know there was no DNA in the crime site, correct?
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2016, operations started to begin.
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There were no forensics. We know there was no ballistics, correct? Correct. We know there was no eyewitnesses, correct? Correct. So in your conclusion, absent all that evidence, it was your possession just relying on your common sense, correct?
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In so many words, I guess so. According to my depo, yes, sir.
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Again, I want you to tell me, when was the last day that a call went in to Epcot from Michael Shaver's phone?
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November 7th, 2015.
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You've also made the decision to charge Lori Shaver with accessory out in fact, right? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Okay. In your investigation, did you ever determine who the primary offender was?
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I believe it was Lori.
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So Lori committed the crime and Lori's processing herself? Sidebar, please.
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Thank you. Would you tell us what the elements of that crime?
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Helping essentially clean up the crime or cover up the crime afterwards.
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Okay. Could be. I believe so. Okay. So what was the aid or assistance
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Late May of 2016.
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that she was offering her stuff that she would cover.
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So between January and May, what was your relationship at that time?
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Well, covering up the crime for two and a half years and disposing of the body.
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So you said that she disposed of the body. You've offered no evidence in support of that, correct?
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I believe she did.
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Okay. And in all the digital data we've seen, we've seen messages from Lori Shaver to Lori Shaver offering to come around but cry for herself. No. No, sir. We've seen communications from Lori Shaver or presumably Michael Shaver offering any evidence to cover up any crime for anybody.
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No. Anything further, Mr. Wiggs? Nothing further. Thank you, Judge.
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Redirect. Lieutenant Dale, when you refer to totality of the circumstances you're talking about,
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Well, the entire case, everything in the probable cause affidavit. In other words, as I pointed out, if you take any one line in the affidavit or any one thing, no, I wouldn't have arrested Lori for any one thing, for her phone bill, for any one thing. But you have to look at the case as a whole and put all those elements together.
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We didn't have one.
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And then with pushing this case together as a whole, is that where the common sense analysis is?
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Did he communicate, text, phone, anything like that to you?
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And that's what I meant by that. You have to look at it globally, not microscopically at one thing. Because even I would agree, no, you wouldn't arrest someone on one thing, on any case.
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There was discussions about why you didn't look at this at any self-defense cases. Yes. And when you are investigating self-defense cases, are you generally dealing with someone that is shot in the back?
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And you remember what month?
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We had a few conversations here and there, but I was in a relationship. She made it very clear to me the first night that we met that she was in a relationship. So we just didn't communicate.
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In the back of the head, no, sir. No, no, no, sir.
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Are you dealing with individuals whose body has been hidden for over two years?
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When you're dealing with self-defense types of allegations, are they normally reported?
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In my experience, they've always been reported.
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So once again, going to the totality of the circumstances and all the evidence from all the various sources that you reviewed, is that why you excluded self-defense as a potential issue in this case?
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Now, as it relates to getting records for individuals, the Facebook records and other records obtained in this case, many of those are paid by search warrant. Yes. And when we talk about a search warrant, what has to go into a search warrant?
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Publishing page 72 from the Lori Shaver records and page 13 from the Michael Shaver records, can you basically just summarize first for the jury the information that we're looking at?
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The probable cause.
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Meaning what?
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We have to have a reason, a probable cause reason, to look into that person's personal stuff, their Facebook records, their phone records, whatever.
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So there are prohibitions from law enforcement just getting records from anybody that they might want to get records from? Correct. Do you have to then, when you're talking about probable cause, does that have to go to a judge and be approved?
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Yes, it does.
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And all of that was done for the records, the Facebook records, in this case?
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Correct, yes, sir.
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At the time of the investigation, did you have any probable cause to obtain records for any other evidence?
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We did not.
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And is simply Mr. Wiggs telling you, hey, you need to look into Jeremy Townsend's probable cause in order to get his Facebook records?
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Is Mr. Wiggs telling you, hey, you need to look into Bruce Ballew's probable cause to get any records from him?
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And also, going back to common sense, if they now have a single source as a potential person involved in this, why would he give you two picks?
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At the time that you started dating, had she ever told you what her marital status was?
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In my honest opinion, a wild goose chase.
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When you are looking at evidence of someone actively covering up a crime, is that evidence that they were involved in the crime itself?
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Nothing further.
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Mr. Wiggs? Yes, briefly. I understand when the state is just asking these questions here, talking about common sense and having to procure warrants and the need to get a judicial order. You told me you looked insufficiently to Jeremy Townsend, correct? Yes, sir. I had advised the state attorney's office and law enforcement some information regarding him, correct?
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You gave us his name. Is that what you mean? Right. Yes, sir.
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Right. And in the investigation that y'all were doing, you did come up with an unknown male contributor at the scene with regards to DNA, correct?
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In the house. Right. So did that trigger your mind? Hey, maybe what Mr. Wicks is saying, we need to look into this guy, Jeremy Townsend?
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Sure. So this is the... Facebook IP address logs for both of the accounts. The Michael Shaver records are on the left. The Lori Shaver records are on the right. You'll notice that it's in reverse order. So at the bottom of the page is actually the full list activity that we got. And as you go up, if you come forward, recent in history.
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No, because we know Jeremy was in the house.
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Had she ever told you that she was single but she had been previously divorced? No.
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So we get a DNA report indicating Lori's presence is on the ground and a track. And there's another individual that's a male that we can't account for. Don't take any effort relying on this common sense principle to see who that was.
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The summer months.
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Well, first of all, I think the DNA wasn't able to be compared, if I remember. I'd have to look at a report. Second of all, if it turned out to be Jeremy's or anyone's, it would just show they were in the house, which we know he was in the house.
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At the location potentially of the conflict, correct?
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She told me that she was in a relationship with a gentleman, but at that time never got into any marital status.
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In the house.
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In the house.
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Okay. Okay.
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No, but it would show he was in the house.
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Okay, but you don't know what's going on in the house, correct?
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Okay, well, you're telling me we have her DNA in the house, so that doesn't mean she did it. Which I'm finding out months after I arrest her.
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Through the state, correct?
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Okay, yes, sir.
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Did you ask Jeremy Townsend for a swab?
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He had nothing to compare it to.
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See if he'd send it off to FDLA and see if they could get a match?
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We had nothing to compare it to.
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Did you try?
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We had nothing to compare it to.
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Ma'am, did you try?
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We had nothing to compare it to, so no.
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Thank you, Judge.
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Thank you. State? Was there any DNA to compare to the TARP? No, sir. Strap? No, sir. Anything in the group? No, sir. The home, when that DNA spot would have happened, would have been at least two years since the fire pit and cement slab was installed. Yes, sir. And so we are talking about two years' worth of people going in and out of that sliding bus.
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That's correct.
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And in that house, we know that she had a commitment ceremony to Travis Filmer, so he's been in that house. Yes. We know her son, Amy, has been in that house. Yes, sir. We know that she has her son Aiden that's been in there.
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Do you remember giving a deposition in this case?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They're on Facebook. There are pictures of parties and things like that going on in that house. Yes, sir. There's countless people going through that site. Yes, sir. So would there be any evidentiary benefit to comparing anything to that DNA?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you remember saying anything different about what her representations of her marital status was at that time?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Even if you've got DNA, which there was nothing to compare to on the floor, would that tell you when that DNA got there? There's also been an assertion that the arrest was made based upon proximity to the grave. Because Lori was the closest person to where the body was found. When was the body found?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
March 9th, 2018.
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The information that you'll see is an action which tells you what kind of activity was done while it was logged in. You'll get the date and time. The time is in universal coordinated time, which, depending on whether or not we're in daylight savings or standard time, is either four or five hour time, hour permit time.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was she arrested?
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September 17th, 2020.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So there was a lot of other stuff that went into it more than just fraud.
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Nothing further, Judge. Mr. Wiggs.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And just real briefly, you find the body at what time? Time of day or date?
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When did you get the Facebook record?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I think also 2018, I think. Okay.
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So you have the records.
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Now, at some point, did you purchase a firearm from Lori Shaver? Yes. And what was the circumstances that that happened?
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At the time that we first met?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You have the body. Obviously, the records aren't very much of a telltale sign. If you wait two foreign years, it still has Lori's shape. Correct.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was talking about when you started dating her. Did she ever talk about her marital status?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Well, it wasn't just the records either.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you. Anything further? No, sir.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm Jimmy.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How y'all doing?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you know Lori? Yes. When did you first meet Lori?
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It was in the summer of 2014. Where did you meet her? Don Mealy Chevrolet.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Where were you working at the time?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There, Don Mealy.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was your position there?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was the context of the meeting that you had at the Chevrolet dealership with Florida Sugar?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They were buying a truck.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can you say they? Who were you referring to?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Her and her old man.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you remember his name?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It's Mr. Shaver.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Michael Shaver?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Michael Shaver, yeah.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what kind of truck was she looking at?
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I think it was Silverado.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did they end up purchasing a vehicle that first time that they went to the dealership?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did there come a time that she returned to the dealership?
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Do you remember giving that deposition?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when she returned to the dealership, do you remember how she was dressed?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Short shorts, cowboy boots on.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was her husband with her?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was the purpose of her coming that second time?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I really don't remember, to be honest with you. It was something to do with we owed them something or something for the truck, I believe.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, they did. They did. Yeah. After that purchase had been completed, did you end up texting with Lori Shaver back and forth?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When a homicide case in particular is being investigated by the Lake County Sheriff's Office, is it assigned to just one detective or a whole team working on this issue?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, about the truck and all.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And at some point, did those text messages move on to something other than just the truck purchase? Yeah. Did you end up having a physical relationship with her?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I remember having a deposition, correct.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, me and my girlfriend split up. Sidebar, please.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you end up having a physical relationship with Lauren Schaefer?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, after me and my old lady split up.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You had something about a split up. You were still married at that time.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We've got to go ahead and refer to page 4, line 25. Do you know any copy of that deposition? Go ahead and read to yourself line 24 and 25.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, we were just, we wasn't married at that time.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was your relationship status?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We'd been together for, well, me and my wife has been together since 2001. Okay. So, yeah.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At the time you started the physical relationship with Lauren Schaefer, was it real?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was girlfriend and boyfriend, I reckon.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sorry, what was your relationship with your wife?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was girlfriend and boyfriend, I reckon, you'd say, before you get married, I mean.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Detective Strickland, let me just look at what falls there. When you talk about the universal time, what is that?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The relationship that you had with Ms. Shaver, how long did that last?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not long at all. Not long at all.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How many did you have?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did she want more out of the relationship than you did?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It's one of the best.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Good. Sidebar, please. Come on up.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did she want more out of this relationship?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Where would the physical acts between you and Laura Shamer occur?
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At her house.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what time of day would they occur?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know. It's just been years, man.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you remember if she was working in an office remotely at that time?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She wasn't working in no office. She was working at home.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was the last time that you had any contact with either Lori Shaver or Michael Shaver?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So it's a, basically it's a time zone that for many different purposes was used so that we don't have different time zones for everything. And because we all live in different time zones, things are rough.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was before the summer was up, so it only was probably a month and a half, probably. I'd say June, July. I guess July or August would have been in 2014 was the last contact.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After the relationship between you and Lori Shaver ended, was there a time frame that Michael Shaver actually reached out to you to ask for help with something?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Probably about a month later, if not right close to it. He called me and said, Lori's trying to kill herself or she's trying to do something like that. And I said... All right. Sustained.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Without getting into anything.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He reached out and asked for help.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, and I told him, that's between y'all.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you have any contact with either of them after that?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Have you ever gone back over to the chamber after that?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nothing. Thank you. Mr. Williamson.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, Williamson.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sidebar, please. Come on up. All right, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the court would instruct the jurors to disregard any testimony dealing with violence as testified to by Mr. Ballew. All right. Is that satisfactory to the parties? Yes, sir. Okay. Thank you. Please proceed. I've already sent a note. Yes, sir. Mr. Wiggs.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, that didn't happen at that time.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Had she ever told you that she was divorced?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. What was her ex-husband's name then? Michael. And what did she tell you about the whereabouts of her ex-husband at that time?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You've talked about the time. What other information are on this IP? The IP address itself. Now, the area, first of all, that is in the blue box, both on the Michael Shaver records and the Lori Shaver records, what is the significance of those two entries in that one box?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She just told me that they were divorced and that he wanted nothing to do with the family, did not know where he was, and he was not around.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So those are the same shared IP address that both of the accounts share. conducted activity on within a certain amount of time with each other.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And had she expressed to you that he left and wasn't having contact with the children? Correct. And how long did you date until you moved into her home?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
A few months.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you remember about when you actually moved in, what month that would have been?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
71.49.14.136.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
71.49.14.136. Okay. And then what is the next line in that one box? The next line is the time. So January 5th, 2016.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Probably July, late July.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And who all was living at that home at that time?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Lori, her two kids, and Becca.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Circumstances where I got a text, would you be interested in a firearm or someone that you know?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And Rebecca is?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That would be your brother's girlfriend at the time? Correct. And they're now married? Correct. How long did Rebecca stay living at that home? I don't know. Did she end up moving out around December 31st, 2016?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
at 16.05 Universal Coordinated Time. January 10th, 2016 at 2.08 Universal Coordinated Time.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And then what is the last line that is in the blue box? The action that was done. Now, what about the red box? Is that the same IP address that is here in the blue box area? It is the same IP. What is the time difference between when the device accessing the Michael Schaefer records access compared to the device accessing the Lori Schaefer records? Two of the green.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I have no idea.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And in December 31st, 2015, did you have some sort of commitment ceremony with Lori?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm sorry, you just said December 31st, 2015.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
For correct me, December 31st, 2016.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when you say commitment ceremony, what is that?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Just a commitment to each other under God.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So approximately within an hour. Correct. And because it's utilizing the same IP address, that indicates that those devices were in the same hearing. That's correct. All right. Moving on. to the next slide. First of all, what is the date of this activity? The date of this activity is April 3rd, 2016. Now, this particular April 3rd date, is that utilizing the same IP address? Yes, it is.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And have you had any discussions about why you wouldn't just get legally married at that point?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And why did she tell you that she didn't want to get legally married?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Lori, when we were talking about marriage and conversation, told me that she did not want to sign... All right, sidebar, please.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sure. Typically, it's an entire team of detectives that are working on it because we all bring different things to the table.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Why did she tell you she did not want to get legally married?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She told me that due to the extreme trauma abuse of her previous marriage, she did not want to sign a contract with another man that she felt like gives the man to make her property.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And who was that text from?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. Do you remember giving a deposition where I asked you a very similar question?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And at that time, you said she didn't want to get married because she had financial issues. 100%. Okay.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Lori Shaver.
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1139, 1207.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not what you just said. No, no. Together with what I just said.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So that's within a half an hour? Correct. Moving on, April of 2016, specifically April 21st, was there another instance of closed activity?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. I'm going to go ahead and show you that deposition. I'm just going to go ahead and ask you to reference that section where you're talking about that. Yes, sir. And at that time, you did not say anything about the violence. It was about financial issues. I did not. Okay. Now when you're testifying, when your wife is facing murder charges, now your testimony has changed.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And did you express potential interest? Yes. And can you describe the firearm that you missed out on?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, there is. And Scott, can you describe that? The action on the Mike Shaver account with a login and the activity on Lori Shaver's account with an uploaded photo. And what was the time difference? 1709, 1741, 30 minutes. Moving on.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was your background, training, experience with various forms of financial, social media records, things like that, from your economic background, useful in the investigation business?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now in May 3rd of 2016, what was significant about the activity on the two accounts here?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She was facing murder charges when we had that deposition.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But your testimony has changed.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It has not.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, in September of 2016, did you help pour a cement slab in the backyard of the residence where you were now living? I did. And who helped you with that? Lori. Did your brother help you with that as well? No, sir. In order to do that... Did you go and rent a cement mixer from Home Depot? I did. All right. I'm showing you. Show defense. You've been previously demarked with sentences of AA.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The same IP address, Mike Shaver's account with a login. Maury Shaver's account was a uploaded photo. The times were constantly different.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I want to focus specifically on Michael Shaver's account. Did you review Facebook messages from that account between the Michael Shaver Facebook account and Vanessa's account? Yes, I did. Moving on, what was the first message and the date that that message was sent from the Michael Shaver? So the first date was February 27, 2016, 743 Universal Coordinated Time.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you recognize this receipt? Sure. And is that the receipt for the cement mixer that you rented as a help for this?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, it looked like one. All right.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You're all right. This time, the stated move states AA. And to evidence, this states number 27. Any objection? No objection.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did you find Facebook messages preceding the delivery of any sort of flowers to Vanessa Townsend, the Facebook record? Yes, they did. I'm not sure if it was previously been admitted into evidence of states number 32. Are those those records? Yes, they are. Moving on to the messages themselves.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And can you go ahead and just read out when that was rented?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it's a pink 38 special with black handle and a little bit of chrome or gray. Did you end up purchasing this weapon? Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When it was rented? Yes. The date says 9-12-2016.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At that commitment ceremony that you referenced in December of 2016, what was Lori wearing? A white dress. Okay. And did someone escort her to where you were?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was the message sent that said that the individual utilized in the Mike Shaver account had something for Miss Townsend? It is the top, which is on 10 pages. April 5th, 2016. Was there a phone number shared to the desk accounts utilizing this account? Yes, there was. And what was that content and when was that sent?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I'm trying to remember who that was.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was it your grandfather?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir, there was.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there basically some sort of official there doing the proceeding? Correct. For anyone looking at this, this would look like a wedding. 100%. And had you represented to everyone that you were getting buried at that time? No. So no one thought that this was the wedding? No. Showing your witness what had been previously marked as CCC. Do you recognize that photograph?
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Welcome to Crimatorium, where loss of faith in humanity is delivered to you one case at a time.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It was presumably the last photo taken of his face before he was killed.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It seemed like, well, my parents would just, you know, spank us or hit us as discipline. So it seemed like at age seven, around then, it started getting a little bit more intense. That's something I remember.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
This is a reflection of the left eye as depicted in Exhibit 159, correct? Mr. Alexander's left eye, correct. And this is the eye we see as reflected in Exhibit 159. This is a focus on that.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
And we can tell the height relative to the cornea, correct? The height, the level of the camera relative to the cornea? You stood up and you demonstrated us how you could see that the photograph was being taken.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
What you've done for purposes of demonstration here is that you've shown us a figure that is visible on your equipment but not visible, completely as visible here, of a person holding a camera, correct?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
And this outline you've done That's not an alteration to the photograph, is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Jody and Travis exchanged 82,000 emails throughout their relationship. Jody has filed for appeal twice since her conviction, both citing prosecutorial misconduct. Her conviction for first-degree murder has been upheld each time. The prosecution team wanted to introduce evidence that Jodi tortured animals. Torturing pets.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Well, I was spanked before on occasion, just it seemed like the frequency and the intensity of it increased around that age.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
This was according to something she had told one of the defense mental health specialists, Alice DeViolette. The judge felt that what Jodi reported to LaViolette didn't amount to animal abuse. Speaking of Alice LaViolette, she was a strong advocate for Jodi and named Travis as the abuser. Her testimony caused a huge backlash towards her by defenders of Travis.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
One of her books on Amazon received numerous bad reviews as a result, and a change.org was set up asking that she no longer be allowed to speak at domestic abuse seminars based on her testimony during the Arias trial. She currently has a counseling practice in California. The following clip is Jody speaking to the court before the delivery of her sentence.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
What do you mean by that, frequency and intensity?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Judge, I just want to respond to a few of the things that were said earlier. My legal team and I tried to settle this case on four different occasions before trial. We tried two times before the 2013 trial, and what Samantha said was not accurate. I was not the one who refused to settle.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Well, just there were, I think that's the first year my dad started using a belt. My mom began to carry a wooden spoon in her purse.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It was Travis's family who not only refused to settle and insisted on both trials, but then they bragged about it all over social media, including posting a group photo on the steps of this very courthouse, holding out all of their thumbs down, refusing to settle. As for not wanting the death penalty, it's my firm belief that death would bring me untold peace and freedom.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
That's my personal belief. If I died today, I would be free and I would be at peace. For years, that's exactly what I wanted. but I had to fight for my life just like I did on June 4th, 2008, because I realized how selfish it would be for me to escape accountability for this mess that I've created.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I have two brothers, two sisters, several nieces and nephews, a mom, a dad, eight aunts, nine uncles, over 20 cousins that I've grown up with, as well as countless friends, all of whom would suffer greatly if I took my own life or if I allocated and begged for the death penalty and then got it. I did not drag Travis through the mud. I protected Travis's reputation for years.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I did say he was an influential person. I kept his skeletons in the closet all to my own detriment for years. What I testified to was not false. They were not made up. They were not things that I wanted to get out into public either. But when I was on the stand, I told the truth.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Your Honor was also here during the second trial when a lot of evidence came to light that supported my testimony from people that never even knew me but knew Travis. I do remember as I testified to this I'm sorry, I think I would have testified to this in the 2014 trial. I do remember the moment when the knife went into Travis's throat and he was conscious. He was still trying to attack me.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
You were just now telling us that your mother carried a spoon with her. What did she do with that spoon?
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It was I who was trying to get away, not Travis, and I finally did. I never wanted it to be that way, Judge. The gunshot did not come last, it came first, and that was when Travis lunged at me just as I testified to, and just as the state's own detective testified two years ago before he and Juan got together and decided to change their story for trial.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Most of you have heard the name Jodi Ann Arias, and it probably conjures feelings about her innocence or guilt. Some hate her, some idolize her. Questions arise like, was she really defending herself? Does she have a mental illness? And if so, what is it? Was the killing of Travis premeditated?
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
As for not being abused, maybe I wasn't as badly abused as Travis and his siblings were by their parents. But I didn't consider it abuse either. I didn't consider being beaten and hit and all those things abuse. That was discipline in my family. That's how my parents were disciplined by their parents. That's why I didn't consider those things abuse. I understand now that that's abuse.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
So for Samantha to say that I was not a victim of abuse is wrong because I was. And my family understands that now. And we, like my mom said, I didn't come with instructions. They did the best they could. They didn't do it because they're bad parents. They did it because they thought that they were disciplining us. And that's the best that they knew how.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
The most important thing I wanna say is that I am very sorry for the enormous pain that I've caused the people that love Travis. I never thought I would cause so many people so much pain. I live every day wishing that I could undo what I did to Travis and wishing that I could take away their pain, just put it onto myself.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
To this day, I can't believe that I was capable of doing something that terrible. I can't even, I'm truly disgusted and I'm repulsed with myself. I'm horrified because of what I did and I wish there was some way I could take it back.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It was a wooden kitchen spoon that she would keep in her purse, and we were misbehaving, my brother and I. This was before Angela and Joseph were born, although it continued through that point. If we were misbehaving, she would use it on us. Sometimes she would pull the car over and, you know, if we were just being brats or something.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It's chilling and it gives us more of a candid peek of the real Jodi and what happens to people when they cross her.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
You said that these were frequent, these incidents where your mother would hit you. They were frequent and intense. I think those are your words, right?
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
They were definitely intense, but they increased in frequency as I got a little older.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Can you discern for us how many times a week your mother would beat you with this?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I don't recall how many times particularly, but it seemed like it could go anywhere from four times a week to...
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It seems that she's trying to elicit sympathy for events that a lot of us experienced as children, being spanked by their parents. It's safe to say that what she went through pales in comparison to what she did to Travis. Also, because of her history of lying, one has to question everything she says.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
This particular line of testimony really demonstrates to me her level of narcissism, given the fact that she killed Travis in such a brutal way. Jodi's mother, Sandy, responded to these allegations by simply saying, I am a mom. Just like any other mom, I did the best job I could raising my children. Part 2. Possible Diagnoses. The Four Therapists. Plus Dr. Grande.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Jodi appears to be intelligent, yet it doesn't seem that she applied that intelligence to schooling or higher-end jobs. She indicated that she took classes in real estate as she was interested in pursuing a career in that field, yet she didn't finish. The course typically lasts three months. If she was interested in that field, why didn't she just take the full course and become an agent?
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
The answer could be lack of funds or even time constraints. My own theory is that Jodi lives in the moment. She adapts to whatever situation she's in and becomes whoever or whatever her partner at the time needs her to be. Case in point, the quickness with which she was baptized into the Mormon church by Travis.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Also, with her looks and manipulative ways, she felt she could skirt by as long as she had a man in her life to take care of her. That's not to say that when she sets her mind to something that she can't make plans and follow through with those plans. This is obvious with the way the prosecutor says she planned and executed Travis's murder.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
the rented car, the three gas cans, her phone being turned off during key times, the upside-down license plate, the fact that she had the gun that was stolen from her grandparents, etc., etc. There were three mental health professionals that evaluated Jodi for the trial, and each one diagnosed something a little different.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
One diagnosed her with PTSD and that the killing was a result of a fight-or-flight mode Jodi was in. Another said she was a victim of domestic violence. The prosecution witness diagnosed Jodi with borderline personality disorder and that she was terrified of being abandoned.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
According to Dr. Grande, a mental health professional who has a YouTube channel, he says Jodi has symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder, more so than borderline. He didn't give her a definitive diagnosis. He said that sometimes people just do bad things. If you haven't watched his channel, I recommend it. I'll leave a link in the notes. Part 3. The Crime
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
This case was a media sensation, with thousands of spectators glued to their TVs watching the trial, including myself. Many people defended her because they believed that Travis was a player and that he used her. They also believed Jodi's claims that Travis was a pedophile. If you're not familiar with this case, there are plenty of videos and articles that cover it in depth. Part 1.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
On June 8, 2008, Travis's roommates discovered him deceased in the shower of his Mesa, Arizona home. During the investigation, his ex-girlfriend, Jodi Arias, was brought up many times as a possible suspect. It was stated that she was obsessed with him and often arrived at his home uninvited. She was also suspected of slashing the tires to his car.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Travis suffered a gunshot wound to the head and 27 stab wounds all over his body. He had a deep gash on his neck that was six inches wide and one and a half inches deep. The medical examiner, Kevin Horn, testified that Travis's carotid artery, jugular vein, and trachea were slashed and he had defensive wounds on his hands.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Fingerprints were located throughout the home and officers located a camera that had been placed in the washer. Investigators were able to view the pictures from the camera and match the fingerprints found in the home to Jody, which led them to question and arrest her. In the interrogation, Jody informed Detective Flores that she didn't go to Travis' house while on a road trip at that time.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
He used several investigative techniques to get the truth from her, but Jody stuck to that story. Later on in the investigation, Jody told the story about the intruders entering Travis's home and shooting him, then allowing Jody to leave the house, retrieving all of her belongings on the way out.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
She states that she left Travis behind and didn't call the police because these intruders threatened to do the same thing to her and her family if she told anyone. There were holes in this story, so that's when she settled on her final story, that she was defending herself from Travis after he became angry that she dropped his new camera and he attacked her. Part 4.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Trial, Verdict, and Sentencing On July 9, 2008, Jody was indicted by a grand jury for first-degree murder, for which she pleaded not guilty. Opening arguments commenced on January 2, 2013, and closing arguments began on May 4, 2013. Jody took the stand and testified for 18 days, an amount of time described as unprecedented.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
The interaction between her and the prosecutor, Juan Martinez, was interesting. The jury deliberated for 15 hours before finding Jody guilty of first-degree murder. After the verdict was read, the crowds outside cheered. In the penalty phase, Jodi gave an allocution to the jury as to why her life should be spared.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
A few months before trial, and by that I mean jury selection, my hair was past my waist, and I donated it. Additionally, I've designed a t-shirt. This is the t-shirt. of which 100% of the proceeds go to support nonprofit organizations, which also assist other victims of domestic violence.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
In the end, the death penalty was taken off the table due to one lone juror voting against it. After the penalty phase retrial, Jody was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. She was also ordered to pay more than $32,000 in restitution to Travis's family.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
A side note about the one juror who voted against the death penalty, she claimed that her life was threatened after her name was leaked to the public. It also emerged that Juan Martinez had been the prosecutor in a case involving her ex-husband. She claims she let the bailiff know, but she was allowed to continue as a juror. You can watch the trial in its entirety from the channel CrokerQueen123.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Jodi's Childhood Jody was born on July 9, 1980. She describes her childhood as happy for the most part, up until she turned seven. It was at that age, she testifies, her parents began to use corporal punishment on her and her three siblings. She describes to the court how her mother and father carried out this punishment.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
A link will be provided. Part 5 Aftermath A GoFundMe has been set up for a retrial that her fans hope will set her free. There are also sites that sell t-shirts dedicated to Jodi, as well as a website called Jodi Arias is Innocent.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
One can only imagine that having others dedicate so much time on one's behalf would feed into a narcissist's feelings of superiority, if that is indeed what Jodi suffers from. It's perplexing to me that she has so many defenders given the fact that she described Travis's last moments to the court at the penalty phase of the trial.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Maybe there's a theory that has been written about that on one of those sites. A quote from one of those sites says, Remember, each day that passes takes us one day closer to Jody's release date. As part of the research for the case, I watched a documentary called If I Can't Have You on Discovery+. The defense attorney, Jennifer Wilmot, spoke about the case against Jody.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It is evident that she truly believes in Jody's innocence from the vantage point of defending herself against Travis's abuse. She makes some compelling points. The strongest one in my mind was the scene of the crime. To paraphrase, she states Jody did not plan this murder as she left a contaminated crime scene. Plus, it looked more like it was a crime of passion because of how messy it was.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
She spoke about how Travis was manipulative with Jody and that she always did what Travis wanted. She also mentioned that Travis was unfaithful to Jody. As for her initial lies to the detectives, Wilmot's response to this was that most defendants lie at first as a defense mechanism. She also feels that Jodi didn't get a fair trial because of the media sensation that it was.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
The prosecutor, Juan Martinez, took photo ops with the crowd that gathered outside the courtroom every day, which did add to the media sensation and seemed inappropriate for such a high-profile case. One of the defense psychologists, Professor Robert Geffner, said that Martinez was portrayed as a saint in the trial.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
He also states that he is in possession of nearly 15 pages of text messages between Travis and other women, and in those messages, Travis gets sexually graphic. Bottom line, Jodi was living in another state and had therefore escaped her so-called abuser, yet she traveled from California to Arizona to see Travis.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I know that abusive relationships are complicated, but this is just one piece of the whole puzzle. She was not a teenager at the time she was dating Travis. She was a grown woman who is responsible for the decisions she makes. There was no evidence presented that backed up her allegations of abuse from Travis, nor pedophilia.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I think it was established that Travis looked at Jody as not a life partner, but a sexual one. Does this justify her murdering Travis? No, it doesn't. Jody slaughtered Travis in life and again after he died by making unsubstantiated allegations that he was not around to defend. In the notes below, there are some links to more information regarding this case.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Speaking of that, your life was pretty ideal up until about age seven. Is something different after age seven?
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
There are photographs of Travis at the crime scene and at the time of the autopsy. If you want to view those, some can be found on Wild About Trial. There were many twists and turns in this case and here are a few that I found interesting. Travis's friends testified that Jodi would often enter Travis's home uninvited as she knew the code to his door.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
They also stated that once the code was changed, she entered through the doggie door and even slept under the Christmas tree. Jodi won a Christmas singing contest in prison and she and her cellmates received a turkey dinner.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
After practicing law for 30 years, Prosecutor Juan Martinez agreed to be disbarred rather than go to trial for years of accusations of sexual harassment and professional misconduct. By agreeing to the disbarment, he is not admitting to any wrongdoing. A photo expert testified in court that he could see a reflection of Jody holding a camera in Travis's eye.
Crimeatorium
Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. There was a period of time, I understand, where y'all were intending to build a duck pond, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Tell me about the duck pond and what the plan was there.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So we had like a bird farm. We had a bunch of different birds and we needed like a place for the ducks. So we built like this big like hole pond shaped thing, like kind of like an artificial pond. And I remember me and my brother, we got these like little like red plastic shovels. And I mean, we were going to dig the hole, make the pond. And that was like the intended use for it.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you guys finish it or? No. What did you do?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
no we never ended up finishing it um we ended up later on turning it into a fireplace okay had there been previous discussions you were going to put a fireplace when you abandoned the duck pond i mean yeah once we decided we weren't going to do the duck ponds we were thinking about either doing a fireplace or like a pool okay after this happened at the house what happened to mom and jeremy
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They broke up. I mean, the last time that they were really together, I guess, was the day my dad died. They broke up, so obviously they stopped seeing each other. But he would... I remember one time we were at a stoplight, and he pulled up next to our car. This happened on multiple occasions, and he would scream at us from his car, like, tell us to roll our window down.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I remember we were going to this Publix, and he would follow us through the store to try and talk to us, and then we switched Publix to a different Publix. He came to that one, too. I remember he came to us in Walmart one time. He was driving by our house, trying to talk to us, talk to my mom.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Isabel, you met me some time ago, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was the last time that Jeremy drove by the residence that you can recall?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At our old house, it was quite a while ago, but we've moved since then, and he has driven by the house we're living at now.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was the last time, you think? How many months ago?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It wasn't too long ago, probably less than a year ago.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you have on the property... A blue tarp. And by that, I mean the type of tarp you see sometimes put over roofs if there's a leak or to cover a boat or an item.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you have, you know, sometimes you see on boats or other items, straps to hold it down. Did you all have any of those on the property?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Met me at or about the time of your mother's arrest?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Frank Merritt, you know, you recall Frank Merritt?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you ever go to a tractor show? No.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, yeah.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there a man, Frank Merritt, present that you recall?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, we did go. I mean, that's Frank Merritt and yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you recall leaving the tractor show early or anything like that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I was really, really sick that day and it was really, really hot. I'm really sensitive to the heat. Let me interrupt you there.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you have any health issues?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, I have like autoimmune issues.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Any arthritis or other issues?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Isabel Shaver has been called to the stand. Ms. Shaver, please state and spell your full legal name.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Right, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I mean, I think it's arthritis. We're still trying to figure out what it is. They just have diagnosed me with hypermobility for now.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Robert Marcato. Yes. Did you ever observe Mr. Marcato coming to the house to remove your father because of an injunction or any reason?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I had, did I not, a brief discussion with you?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
During that event, did you see your mom waving a gun at him or anything like that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Scott Amatuccio. How often would Mr. Amatuccio come to the residence?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He wouldn't come over that often because he did live far.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Wilma Nichols. Do you know a Wilma Nichols?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Our neighbor?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We did, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Did Miss Nichols come by and socialize with y'all at all?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No. We've hung out with her probably once when we first moved there.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'd started this with a discussion about your mom being arrested. Do you feel that it's imperative that you step up and tell this jury what happened?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And upon that brief discussion... we had requested that Ms. Johnson be appointed, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I do think it's important that I say what happened, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And everything that you've testified before this jury, is it true and is it accurate?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No embellishments?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nobody pressured you?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you've had your own advice of counsel, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you. That's all I have. Thank you.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. Thank you. All right, state. Sir, may I please report?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir. Ms. Shaver, you need a minute?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I'm okay.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You said your birthday's coming up and you're about to turn 16? Mm-hmm. And I'm not trying to pick on you, but these microphones and the recordings are recording everything. Sometimes it's hard to understand mm-hmms and uh-huhs and things like that. So as much as possible, try to remember to say yes and no.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
If you say it, because we all do, I'll probably correct you. Let's just make sure the record's clear, okay? All right. Now... The events that we are talking about obviously are some much longer ago, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We're talking about stuff that happened in 2015, 2016, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And some of this stuff that you've talked about is even older than that.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And so when we are talking about timeframes in November of 2015, how old would you have been then?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, if I ask you any questions you do not understand, would you please ask me to rephrase the question, repeat the question, or try to ask the question in a different way?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
2015. So I would have been awful at math. Oh my gosh.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Six and seven years old. Sounds about right. Okay. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And there's obviously been a long passage of time since that. Is that a yes?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. Sorry. Sorry. That's okay.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, it's fair to say that you don't want anything bad to happen to your mom, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You said you were very close to your mom. She's like your best friend.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that you definitely want your family to stay together.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, correct. Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I want to talk to you before we start talking about the event that led to your mother's arrest. I want to talk to you about some of the other stuff that you had mentioned. At one point, you said that your dad would drug your mom to put her to sleep. Do you remember saying that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. During the course... of this case you've actually been talked to by law enforcement by the children's advocacy center and myself yes and that interview with law enforcement would have been at the time of your mother's arrest in 2020
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And then you went to the Child Advocacy Center and were asked questions about things that were going on a few months after that, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, correct.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And then the deposition where I asked you questions about this was in this calendar year, 2024. Yes. And there are going to be some times that I'm going to go ahead and refer to those various statements. And I've got the transcripts of them so you can review them if it helps refresh your memory. All right. Have you reviewed any of those?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And previously when you talked about the allegations about your dad, quote, drugging your mom, you were five years old at that point, correct? Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I believe so.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And what you described is you would see him put some sort of powder in a drink and give it to her.
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Do you recall your father?
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But when asked what he put in the drink, you didn't know, correct? All right. And you didn't know what it was.
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You don't know where he would get it.
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And quite frankly, you have no idea what he was putting in that drink.
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Okay. But you don't know where it is or where it came from?
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All right. Now, the morning that Your father was killed. You are saying that he was not living at the house at the time, correct?
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And previously you had stated that the last time he had lived at home was before you were in second grade. Do you remember saying that?
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Is that accurate?
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I would say first, second grade-ish.
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Okay. So you hadn't lived at home at all since you were in first or second grade?
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All right. And you were in third grade during the 2015-2016 calendar year, correct?
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Michael Shaver.
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I think so.
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Do you need to think about it a little bit, or are you good with that?
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What was your relationship like with Michael Shaver?
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Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure what grade I was in. I did two grades over the summer, so it kind of makes it a little... Okay.
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Now, if your school records indicated you were in third grade in the school year of 2015-2016, you would be... Yeah, no, I'm just... So second grade would be the 2014-2015 calendar year.
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Okay. Is that correct?
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All right. So you're saying that he had not lived with you since before August or September of 2014? Yes. Okay. And the event that we're here to talk about, you don't know what grade you were in when that happened, right?
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Okay. You don't know who your teacher was when this happened, correct?
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We didn't really have much of a relationship. He wasn't very present. He worked at night, and so he slept all day during the day. And any time he was home, we weren't really allowed outside of our rooms. We didn't have a relationship, really. He really wasn't a father to me.
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You don't know what month this happened in, correct? Correct. You don't know what year this happened in, correct?
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You can't think of any holidays that this event was near, correct?
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No. Not necessarily holidays, but like birthdays. I know it was, I'm pretty sure it was after my brother's birthday. I would say probably spring, summer-ish. Okay.
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And previously you had said you thought it was spring or summer because you had recently been to the beach.
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Okay. And so that's in keeping with your brother's birthday?
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Yes, his birthday is April 1st.
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And when you say spring or summer, what do you mean by that?
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Like, I mean, anywhere between spring or summer. I mean, that was so long ago.
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I understand. Let me try to ask a better question. I may think spring starts in March. You may think spring starts in May. So when you say spring, what months are we talking about here when you're saying spring or summer?
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Probably starting in like... April, May.
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I feel like that's when like the school year ends is like May. So like that'd be almost summer.
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And when would summer end to you?
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August, September.
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So this event that led to you getting a gun, shooting at your father, having him eventually killed in front of you, and then being threatened, having your life threatened. The best you can come up with as far as when this happened is sometime in some year between April and August.
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The day that this happened, the events that you have described all happened in between the timeframe that you woke up and went to school that day, correct?
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And that would be from seven o'clock in the morning till about eight o'clock in the morning, correct?
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And. What you are saying happened is that your father showed up unannounced sometime in that timeframe, correct?
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You're saying that he hadn't lived there since 2004, since about August of 2014. When was the last time that you had seen him prior to him showing up and having this confrontation with your mother?
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Last time I saw him, um, I don't remember the exact day or anything. I mean, I remember like certain memories because they weren't good days. Like they, you know, had bad events happen on those days. Cause I mean, like I said, this was so long ago, so I don't remember just like, you know, days. I just remember like those bad events that took place. Okay.
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In relation to the sign that you saw your father filled in front of you, how long had it been since the last time you had seen your father?
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I would probably say a few months.
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And you do not remember how he was dressed?
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I believe he was wearing a pair of shorts.
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Was the atmosphere calm? How would you describe the household?
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Do you remember previously when I asked you that question in a deposition saying something different? Would it help refresh your memory if I showed you your transcript?
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Showing you your deposition, page 37. And line 9. I'm going to go ahead and ask you to read to yourself the question on lines 7 and 8, and then your response.
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I said I don't remember. Yeah. Okay. And I also just said that I'm not sure, but I think it was short.
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I understand. I just want to make sure we understand. When I asked you these questions previously this year, you didn't remember them.
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Okay. And there's obviously pictures of his dead body wearing shorts. Did you review that before your testimony changed?
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Okay. So he shows up. You haven't seen him in a long time. An argument starts out on the back porch between your mother and father, correct?
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You went out and saw them arguing.
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I believe the way you described it is, and if I have the time frame that this happened, please correct me, but he was sitting in a chair and his foot was on your mother's head, correct?
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It was very combative. It was very...
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And you described how he was kicking her with his other foot, correct?
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Yeah, it started out with him kicking her in the stomach, in the back. Then she was screaming. So then he put his other foot on her head to stop her from screaming, pushing her head into the ground, basically suffocating her, choking her. And he continued to kick, but obviously because he's... He's using his other foot now. It wasn't as strong of a kick.
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As you described it, he's sitting here with one foot not on her neck, on the side of her head.
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Yes, correct.
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An ear in the back and an ear in the stomach.
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You go back in the house, correct?
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tense there was a lot of tension constantly it's not calm it was the complete opposite of calm nobody whenever whenever he was home it was just i mean it was scary it was like we i don't know we were just stuck in our rooms all day and then like whenever we weren't it was just he was very aggressive and he we just we didn't have that type of relationship no it wasn't a calm household
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You had a phone. I believe you described it as... an emergency device that you could call 911 in the house, correct?
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You did not call 911, correct?
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And you stated you were never taught how to call 911, correct?
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Correct, but that's not the reason why we didn't call 911. Okay.
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You go into your mother's room, correct?
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And you go to her end table.
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Yes, correct.
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My name is Isabel Shaver, I-S-A-B-E-L-L-E-S-H-A-V-E-R.
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And you get her pink and black gun.
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showing you what's been previously entered into evidence. It states 26. Do you recognize this firearm?
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That's not the gun.
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Okay, so she had a different pink and black gun?
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How many pink and black guns did she have?
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I mean, I'm assuming two. I'm not sure. We had a lot of guns in the house.
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Okay. So you grabbed some other... How do you know that's not the white one, then?
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Because the one that I used was not entirely... It was black, and then the handle was pink.
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Okay. So you grabbed her other pink and black gun.
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And then you go back outside.
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And at that point, your father is still sitting in that chair.
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His foot on her head.
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Is he still kicking her?
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What's he doing?
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I mean, he's just kind of yelling at her, like, holding her to the ground with his foot. And he's saying, like, you know, he's going to kill her. It's the last time. Like, they're not working it out because, yeah.
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Is she on her side?
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She's on her side. She's facing, so her stomach would be facing towards him.
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And what was she doing?
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Being held to the ground.
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Was she struggling?
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Yes. She was trying to call for help and scream, and then he pinned her to the ground with his foot.
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yes no so you take your mom's other pink and black gun and from about five to ten feet away you shoot correct and you shoot him in the back of the head i think so yes do you ever remember saying that you shot him in the back of the head
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Okay. So previously, before today, you definitively said, I shot him in the back of the head, correct?
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But that's changed now.
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I mean, no, not necessarily. Like, I shot him in the back of the head. I don't know where the bullet went, but that's where I was aiming. That's where I'm pretty sure it hit. Okay. You hit him? Yes, I think. Yes. Okay.
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And when you hit him, today you said he just sat there, correct?
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Yeah, he sat there and he's like, shaked.
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Okay. I want to make sure that was clear because you didn't say that on direct. He was almost like seizing, correct?
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All right. He didn't get up. He didn't move. He didn't try to run.
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Exactly. Yeah.
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Okay. So clearly you hit him.
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All right. And then pretty much simultaneously to you shooting your dad in the back of the head, you're saying Jeremy just happened to show up.
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Like I said, he came there every single morning before school. This was right before school. We already had our clothes on. We were in the middle of eating. Like we were about to leave for school. Like he was there. He came before school.
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He would come to your house every day before school so that your mom could then take you to school?
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I mean, he would come with us. They would hang out. His son went to school there.
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Okay. Now, after he arrives... While your dad is shaking and, as you described, basically seizing in the chair, at this point, the amount of pressure he's putting on your mom's head has released. Is she able to get up?
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Yeah, she crawls away. She doesn't stand up immediately.
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Okay. But you're saying Mr. Townsend came over and took your mom's other pink and black gun from you?
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The same one I had, yes.
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And shot him again?
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In the head.
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And at that point, he turns around and threatens you and your brother that he's going to kill you as well.
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Not immediately after he has the gun in his hand, he helps my mom up, and he tells my mom to take us to school. We need to leave the house. And so, I mean, that's when he lets us know, like, no calling the cops. Like, I will do the same thing to you that I did to your father, basically. Saying he will hurt us, he will come after us, he will kill us if we say anything.
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You see any alter, without talking about the facts of any events, did you see any altercations between Michael and your mother?
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That shot him in the head.
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Yes, first.
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Okay. And... So your mom actually went ahead and took you to school after this?
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Okay. Dropped you off like nothing was wrong?
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I mean, I asked to go to school. We were in the car, and she asked if we wanted to go to school, if we were comfortable, and I said yes.
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Okay. And you said that you didn't talk to anybody at the school about anything, or you didn't react at all at the school about anything, because as you said, this was normal.
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No, I mean, I said that I was in shock, but I did not mention this to anybody as I was just threatened not to mention it to anybody. No, it wasn't normal to see somebody die, but having these type of experiences where there's a lot of violence in the house, there's a lot of, like, I mean, trauma and fear, that was normal to experience that and then go to school afterwards.
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But what she said on direct was you were able to go to school and function just fine. Yes. This was normal.
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No one had ever been taken to the hospital before in any sort of incident between you and your mom, correct?
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No one had ever been seriously injured in any incidents before where they required medical attention, correct? Correct. And certainly nobody ever died, correct? Now, today you said when you returned from school, Jeremy Townsend was still at your residence.
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He was. He was fixing the front door.
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And do you remember previously during your deposition saying that after this happened and you went to school, you never saw Jay back at the house again? Do you remember saying that?
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I did, yes.
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Yes, after that day, yes.
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What I'm saying is after you went to school, you never saw Jeremy back at the house again. Today you're saying when you got back from school, he was there.
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Were they frequent?
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Yes, he was. He was there.
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What I'm asking is do you remember saying something?
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I do remember saying that.
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Okay. You described Jeremy as coming over and spending the night at the house, not every day, but quite a few days out of the week. That was normal, correct? Correct. When you got back from school that day, you did not notice any changes to the property, correct? Correct. You did have a huge hole in the backyard, as you described, which was going to be a duck pond, correct?
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Yeah, yeah. They were pretty frequent.
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Had that been filled in?
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I don't know. No. No, it wasn't.
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Okay. And that was the area that was eventually turned into the cement slab, correct?
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Is that a yes? Yes. Sorry. That's okay. Since you sat there, shot your father in the back of the head, and were threatened by Mr. Townsend with your life, you have only once been taken to any sort of counselor or any sort of therapy, correct? That is correct. And that was actually sometime this year, close in time to your death.
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Were they physical?
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Actually, no, that's not correct. I think I went when I was little. Me and my brother went. I think it was at a church. I'm not entirely sure if it's classified as counseling or therapy, but... It was pretty much.
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So speaking about household events, you had a slogan that there was an atmosphere that was tense, I believe?
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Let me ask this. Did your mom ever take you to see a counselor to deal with any of the trauma that you, first of all, witnessed right in front of you, but also participated in by shooting your father?
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I mean, yes, I did go to counseling. When? I think it was probably in this past year, maybe a little bit longer ago. But I, yeah.
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And that was one time?
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Okay. And that was this year?
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I don't know if it was this year. I think it was the year before. Okay. Yeah.
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When you shot your dad, that was back in... an unknown year sometime between April and August, correct? Yes. And there was probably at least five years, if not more, because this case has been pending for four years, between any counseling that your mom brought you to, correct?
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Yes, correct. And the counseling that I went to, it was literally like only one time. Like it was literally only for an evaluation, like nothing more. Yeah.
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Okay. We previously spoke about the different times you've talked about this event, either with law enforcement, the Child Advocacy Center, or during the deposition that I asked you questions. I'm going to ask you some things about how your stories changed over that period of time, okay? When your mom was arrested, you spoke with Detective Tammy Dale at your home, correct?
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Yes. I've shown you a car closet exhibit.
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And at that time, you said the last time you saw your dad, he worked at an airport, correct? Correct.
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I think so. Maybe, yeah.
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And you said, and this was in 2020, the last time you saw him was a few years ago?
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Yeah. Okay. But 2020 was also four years ago, which was a lot closer to the last time I had seen him. Right.
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So your memory would be better then.
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Okay. And at that time, she asked you, do you know what happened to him? And you said, I have no clue. Correct?
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All right. You also said, I don't know. He just left. Correct?
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Did you see your mom in that same or similar condition on multiple occasions?
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And the detective asked you if you ever asked your mom where he was. Do you remember that?
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And your mom told you she doesn't know because he doesn't talk to us. Correct?
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You also went to the Child Advocacy Center to be interviewed that same year. That would have been December of 2020, correct? Correct. And during that time when you were interviewed, you stated the last time you remembered seeing him was when he was arrested in 2014, correct? Correct. And asked if he came back to the house after that, you said, I don't know, correct?
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And those pictures that you looked at, when were they taken?
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The ones that Jeff showed me? Mr. Wig showed me? Yeah.
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You refer to him by his first name?
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I do sometimes, yeah. It's not on purpose. It's not to be disrespectful or anything.
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Clearly talk to him a few times.
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I talked to him a few years ago, and I didn't tell him the full story. It was kind of just me saying a little bit about my side, and that's when I got my attorney, Ms. Kelley.
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I'm sorry, I sidetracked you there. Do you remember when those photos that he showed you were?
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I don't remember necessarily when they were, like the time period or anything.
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Are those true and accurate depictions how you frequently observed your mom without speaking about the events themselves? Yes. Did those images and mental impressions in your mind cause you to feel the need to take your mother's side at any time?
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Did you see how they happened?
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I believe those ones, I don't know exactly what event that one was from. Okay. Because, like I said, there was a lot of events like that. And they all, not all, but most of them ended in kind of the same physically harm. You know what I mean? So I don't know which one that one belonged to.
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And we're talking about physical harm. We're talking about bruises on the arm, correct?
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Bruising, blood, yeah.
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Okay. But the blood that you said you saw in the pictures was your dad's blood? i think so i don't know okay when at the cac interview when they asked you uh you had already said that the last time you remembered seeing him when he was arrested in 2014 and then asked if he ever came back to the house after that you said i don't know correct correct and then specifically you were asked
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So you did not see anything that happened that would have made you have an idea of what happened to him, and you said no, correct?
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One moment. Nothing further, Josh.
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All right. Thank you, sir. Mr. Wiggs? Just briefly, Josh. Yes, sir.
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How old are you, Isabel?
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Isabel, there's been a discussion about the guns and multiple guns at the house.
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Correct, yeah.
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Tell us about the atmosphere and the amount of guns that you all had in the household.
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Um, so we talked about my mom's guns.
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Go slow, but the jury can understand you, okay?
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um we also had in the living room we had this really big mirror like huge and it was on the wall it was like latched onto the wall by like these so like it could like flip up like this and so behind it was i want to say like a hole but it wasn't really a hole it was kind of like this really deep like divot in the wall and there was like a rack then he stored his guns there so you could like the wall and then the mirror lifted up and there was like guns on the wall
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Okay. So there were numerous guns within the residence. Is that fair to say?
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The question is, as the juries may wonder, how did you learn to fire a handgun?
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My dad, he was obviously very interested in guns. So he did hunting a lot. We had five acres of land, so we had a lot of space to shoot the guns. And so he always taught us like gun safety or whatever and would take us outside to shoot the guns.
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Was that a routine thing?
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Yeah, we did it quite often.
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Okay. So did you have any trouble or difficulty in pulling the hammer on the gun?
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I mean, it was kind of difficult. I had to use, like, two hands.
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Pardon me?
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It was kind of difficult. I had to use, like, two hands to pull the trigger back.
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Mr. Wiggs, at this time, does your client wish to testify? Yes, she does, John. Okay. Is there anything further before we bring the jurors in?
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Yes, Your Honor. The testimony of Fish Shaver, as it relates to any sort of other acts by her deceased husband, needs to be limited to things that Isabel had knowledge about and was aware of. The only thing that matters as it relates to the prior acts go to what was reasonable for the person acting in defense of others at that time.
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Yes, I mean, look at her.
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So the defendant is unable to come up and just testify about all sorts of other things Mr. Shaver may have done to her over the course of their relationship due to the fact that if Isabel Shaver did not observe it, and we've heard what her testimony is at this point, it's not relevant to the state of mind of the person acting in defense of others.
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So the state would move in limine to make sure that any sort of testimony of any acts by Michael Shaver upon Lori Shaver be confined to the things that have already been testified to about which
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Did it cause you, Isabel, to step up in the past on more than one occasion and side with your mother?
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The person who shot had knowledge of about, which at this point is pretty much limited to the 2014 incident and general discussions of just fighting and there's been very limited discussions of physical abuse. There have been allegations referred to in other documents of being locked in closets and sexual battery and things of that nature and as
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I'm 15. I turned 16 this Sunday.
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There's no testimony from the person who shot as to knowledge about any of those things and why they acted in defense of others. Any testimony about that would be irrelevant.
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Judge, this child just testified that she saw a repeat of acts that impacted her mentally. Now, I know the court has directed we not go into details on events, but I think it's appropriate to talk about circumstances of events that may have impacted the child without still going into details. The child testified it was a monthly issue all the time, stress, batteries, events like that.
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I think that's appropriate to touch on but not go into specific details. And that, I think, is your order.
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I'll allow it to that extent. Yes.
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And I would just say, you know, I don't oppose counsel interjecting or even the court interjecting if you feel it's getting a little outside of where you want it to be.
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Yes, it did.
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All right. Anything further?
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All right. Let's call the jury. All of the members of the jury have returned after a comfort break. Please proceed.
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In the pictures that you looked at, who committed those injuries to your mother?
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May I please the court?
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The defense would call Lori Shaver. Ms. Filmer, would you state your name for the record, please?
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My father.
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Lori Filmer, previously known as Lori Shaver.
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Big day in your life, isn't it? Big week. Been several years, hasn't it, Ms. Filmer? Tell me when you're ready, okay? Would you tell the jury who you are and how you met Michael Shaver?
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Josh, we ask that this exhibit is held without testimony as to the events...
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I met Michael when we started dating in seventh grade. We lived in a very small town in Lawrence, New York. Our school was K through 12, 500 kids. Our graduating class was like 14, 18 kids. We went to kindergarten together. I met Michael in tech class when they actually did tech class in seventh grade.
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It's your desire to testify in this matter, correct?
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We reached a period of time where y'all... elected to get married correct yes do you remember when that was may of 2016. okay and at some point in time you all ended up migrating to the state of florida yes okay and do you remember approximately when that was
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I graduated in 2001. That's college. So Mike was a dropout. He got his GED. He wanted to become a pilot. Didn't have much funding for that. My parents paid for it. I went to school for business administration and focus in health service administration. So I was very socially awkward and Wasn't a popular kid in school. My brother, one of my oldest brothers, I'm the youngest of five.
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How's the exhibit identified? What letter marking? He is in Bravo. Okay. Any objection from the state?
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One of my brothers got meningitis at seven weeks. And he was severely mentally retarded. He got picked on a lot. So growing up in a small town that was not acceptable way back then, and I spent all my time in the handicapped classroom. And that was not popular. I was an outcast. He used to get beat up on the bus, and I would stick up for him. I met Mike and had gone to school with him.
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But in seventh grade, in tech class, we became friends. He was an awkward kid as well because he was kind of like a troublemaker at that time. And I didn't have anybody. He didn't have anybody. We kind of clung together at that point.
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Okay, Ms. Bell, I'm showing you what's marked as offensive to the scene for identification purposes. Would you tell the jurors what you're looking at?
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Okay. So there's some period of time, went by, y'all got married, ended up down here, correct?
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Mike wanted to be a pilot, couldn't do that, or what?
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No, he did. Yep.
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He actually did.
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Okay. Did he fly commercial, or was it a hobby?
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No. My parents helped him get his personal private pilot's license. He wanted to go on and get his professional pilot license. My parents told him that if he was going to date me, he was going to get his GED and they would help him. He looked to his family to get assistance with that. He was denied. So it took some time. It took a lot of time. But eventually he made his way.
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He started flying for Pan Am Flight Academy. which is the lower division of U.S. Airways out of New York City.
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He was doing good.
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So eventually you end up down here, and Mike transgresses into another occupation. How did that happen?
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Well, we first moved, so I worked for MetLife Disability. I worked for them for 15 years, corporate. I worked for them in office. For four years, when Mike finally succeeded in everything, we were able to move. We moved to Florida, Fort Pierce, Florida, when I was seven weeks pregnant with Isabel. We were there for about a year. We moved back to New York. We got hit with our first hurricane ever.
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It was kind of like a scary thing. We were top tier of an apartment building. A tree came in. We didn't know what to do. We packed up our stuff. We were back in New York three days later. Then after that, we were there for about a year. I was still working for MetLife. But at that time, work from home was kind of becoming popular. And I was able to, again, move my work to Florida.
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I see my father with a torn shirt and blood.
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And we moved to Orlando right next to the airport. And I was working from home, had Isabel. And he was commuting from Orlando to New York City on a weekly basis. He was gone for weeks at a time.
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Stick up, please.
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Okay. What happened next in y'all's life?
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There was a lot. We just had each other. I don't know how else to explain it. We just had each other. I was a single mom in a new place with no family, no friends. He was a pilot. He was gone all the time. There was no support from either family.
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I'm sorry. I see my father, and he has a torn shirt and blood.
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Now, we heard from family in this case of Mike's come in and they said, well, we haven't heard from him for this period of time or that period of time. Was he close with his family at all?
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Did you ever visit them?
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Stacy? Yes.
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Did any of them ever visit your residence?
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Never. They didn't even come to the wedding. But when we were growing up through high school, we would go to Stacy's all the time. Christmas, Thanksgiving, birthdays. I knew Desiree. I knew Danny. And you know that. Every time we would go over there and meet, you and Mike used to always get together and talk about how your dad evaded the whole family.
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Whose blood's that?
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I mean, I'm assuming his. Says?
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What was the next step in y'all's marriage?
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So from there, there was a lot of issues. A lot of issues. He was away, gone for over a week. I packed up Isabel. And we had flight privileges. We could fly for free. I packed her up. And when he was gone, took her to New York, where my family was. thinking I could get away, get support, file for a divorce. Everything was good. Rented a house. Everything was good.
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I was back working at MetLife in the office. My sister works there. She's actually the operations manager now. She's a nurse. She started her way down low. She was actually the one that got me the job, told me that they were doing this mass hiring. And now she's the operations manager of MetLife in Oriskany. So I packed Isabella up. She was just a little over a year old. We went there.
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Now, the photos you looked at in Chesapeake, briefly, is this the individual that would do that and say, do you understand what I'm saying? Would move State Defense Exhibit C into evidence at this time, Judge? Yeah. Isabel, how frequently would those events occur without speaking the details of the events?
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And... Where was Spike?
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Well, he was off on a business trip. But we had... Back then, you used to have flying privileges. You could just... You were just on standby. As long as you could just get on the plane... You could fly anywhere you wanted to for free back then. So that's what I did. I got away. My sister was helping me. We got a house. We rented a house. Everything was perfect.
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Like, all right, this is going to work. I was seeking attorney in New York, filing for divorce. My mom, I... I joined a gym, and I went to a spinning class one night. I came home that night. My mom was watching Isabel. It was a baby. I went into the shower. When I came out, my mom was not there. I was greeted by a punch in the face.
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Excuse me. Okay. Let's limit it without physical description.
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I was greeted by Michael three weeks later.
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All right.
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I was out of work for three weeks. And we were all back in Florida three weeks after that. And I was, again, working from home without my family, without any support. And we were living in Davenport, Florida at that time, Champions Gate area.
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Let's talk, let's transgress into a family environment. Did it ever develop Lori into an atmosphere of, where there was tension, so to speak.
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There was always tension.
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Let's talk about the nature of the tension.
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One moment, please. Yes, sir. I don't want to see pictures.
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I'm showing you a composite of your wishes. I want you to look through this. All right, that's number two. I have the memories.
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I don't need to look at pictures.
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Without articulating the specific facts of those events, did you suffer any injuries at the hands of Michael Shaver?
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Yes. Who's in that photo? Whose blood is on that shirt, Michael Shaver? Michael's.
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Was that a consequence of an altercation between you and Michael?
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When these incidents occurred, would these occur around the Ham family and the occupants of that family?
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Sometimes.
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Pardon me?
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Sometimes. Most of the time. I mean, he didn't hide it.
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Let's talk about your relationship with Isabel. What was your relationship like with Isabel?
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Like when she was younger or now?
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Well, when y'all were younger, did Isabel ever develop a feeling or a need to protect you?
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Objection, Your Honor. Delighted.
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Did she demonstrate? Did she demonstrate?
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Isabel grew up really fast. She had to take care of Aiden when I was not able to.
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As a consequence of these events?
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Yes. And even to this day, she still... I am not the person to... If you come at me with something, I don't have a comeback. I will shut down. And I will just retreat. She's not that person. She will get right in front of me. Whether we're at the gas station or grocery shopping. There used to be a time period where I could not even go into a grocery store by myself.
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It would happen pretty often. They'd at least argue and fight really bad, pretty much on the daily. But it would escalate to those points a few times a month. It wasn't a rare occurrence. It happened often.
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Were there events wherein you were not free to leave the residence?
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Would anybody control your freedom of movement?
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Yes. My, obviously I've gained weight over the years, but my eating was controlled. I had anorexia and bulimia. I probably the way this now, what I did with all four of my kids, but I literally reached for an Oreo one time and was thrown off couch.
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Now, at some point in time, Michael took a job at Disney, correct? Okay. Do you remember when that was?
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I don't remember the exact time when we had moved back from New York to Florida. That's kind of when the whole Disney thing came about because he didn't want to leave me alone. I mean, from my presumption, it was because he wanted to be around and, you know, make sure that nothing was going to happen. Or I wasn't going to leave.
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Was there any attempts to leave, Michael?
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Probably about eight.
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One moment.
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I'm showing you three documents. Do those pertain to Lori Schaefer and Al Tutman? Yes, sir. Do those documents refer to Michael Shaver? Yes. Do these documents pertain to any acts of violence pertaining to Michael Shaver?
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You're aware of the arrest of your mother, correct?
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Do these documents pertain to injunctions for protection filed on your behalf against Michael Shaver?
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Yes. And there was an additional one filed by the state.
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Were those filed on your behalf as a consequence of violence and a feeling of a need for protection?
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Those three?
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Yes. Was Michael, at points and times, directed to reside outside of the residence?
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Yes, he was.
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By the courts?
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Okay. For the need for your protection?
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And were those injunctions issued as a consequence of violence? We've heard a lot of witnesses that have taken the stand in this case, correct? We heard from Mr. Amituchio, correct? He represented, if I'm not correct, that he was Mike's best friend.
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And as a matter of those events, I may have asked this question before, did you feel a need to attempt to protect your mom in any fashion?
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He was not as an adult.
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Mr. Amituchio took the stand and testified to this jury that he was Michael's best friend. Was Mr. Abituccio at the house very often? No. Pardon me?
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No, he was not. Not after we all got married and had kids.
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Mr. Merritt took the stand as well, correct? Correct. And was it Mr. Merritt that declared he had gone to the truck show with y'all?
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Tractor show.
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Tractor show? Okay. Did Mr. Merritt spend time at the residence with y'all?
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Not very often. I probably seen him twice before that.
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Okay. Now, there was testimony about your mood or something out at the tractor show, correct? Were there any issues going on at the tractor show that the jury needs to know?
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Not prior. It was happening at the tractor show.
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What was happening?
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Isabel was not feeling well. She was getting sick to her stomach. She was getting dizzy. She was getting hot. She's not able to talk. Her body does not tolerate heat or cold. Like, she becomes very flushed and sick. And I wanted to leave because she was feeling sick. And we were walking a very long time. I mean, hours. And there was no stroller, nothing. I just wanted to leave for her.
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I did, yes.
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He did not want to leave. I guess the whole point was for us to go there to maybe get a mutual relationship with Frank and Rita. But... She was sick, and I was, as a mom, I just wanted to leave because she was sick, and he didn't want to leave. I don't know how else to explain it.
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Did you perceive your mother... as a victim through those events.
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Okay. There was testimony about contacts with you, and you represented that Michael, you believed he had left or gone to a certain location, correct?
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At what time period?
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There was a witness that testified that you had reported... That he had gone to Georgia or New York or somewhere.
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I had received a message from Stacy.
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Who's Stacy? His sister. Okay.
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She had contacted me saying that she hadn't heard from Michael. And I told her I did not either. And she said, well, his mom is sick. So... If you can, if you hear from him, or you can let, I said, if I hear from him or I will let one of his friends know that his mom is sick so that they can relay the message. Frank Merritt came by. I told him that his mom was sick.
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Those, that response that transpired at you, did it become a natural and automatic response? You talked about the feeling inside of yourself of the need to protect your mother. Did that become automatic inside?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So if he's seen him, to let him know. Frank Merritt was not close with us. So I never told him that he went to Georgia. I said he went to go see his mom. Here is the misconception. His mom, Sharon Shaver, the one that was sick, lives in New York. Frank Merritt did not know the family well enough at that time.
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He automatically assumed, in my mind, that he went to Georgia to see his stepmom, Sharon Shaver.
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I never made the statement he went to Georgia. I said he possibly could have went to go see his sick mom.
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We also heard other witnesses testify, correct? There was testimony about a sale of guns, correct? Now, my understanding, y'all had a relatively large cache of guns around the house. Is that correct? Pardon me? Yes. Okay. Was Mike collecting guns?
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What was his... He had a hobby of building them.
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I see. Okay. So Mike would build guns, sell them out on the market somewhere?
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For his friends. He built them and would just keep them, collect them.
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Okay. And with regards to the guns, we heard Isabel testify... that Mike had dealt with the guns and been training the kids how to fire guns? Yeah.
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They knew gun safety.
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Okay. Did he practice this with them?
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Yes, he did.
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Did Isabelle know how to fire a gun?
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Everybody did. We had the five acres. There was targets. We used to go to the gun range as well, but we taught them how to, various guns, check to see if they were loaded, unloaded, how to fire. And he would have them walk around the house after they checked to see if they were unloaded or whatnot, walk around the house with them pointing down, teaching them not to point at anybody.
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Even with Nerf guns, they were not allowed to point them at people, things like that.
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Okay. There came a period of time because of these injunctions that were filed that Michael was out of the house, correct?
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And there came a period of time you started dating other people.
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Was it Mr. Bray? Who was it? Ballou. Pardon me? Ballou, wasn't it? Yeah. You dated Mr. Ballou. Was he married or single? Okay. Did y'all date long? Okay. Did he have any issues with Michael?
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Yes, it did. Growing up, I mean, Yeah, I've always stepped in for my mother. I was, I mean, I would, you know, do whatever I could do. I mean, I remember I had this stuffed animal, and her name was Lammy, and she was my favorite stuffed animal.
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Then at some point in time, you met Jeremy Townsend, correct? Tell us how you met Jeremy, where you met Jeremy.
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I met Jeremy at the school.
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At the school?
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Not at the park. Okay.
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He had an opal color truck. I had a white truck. There was two lanes coming out. And we were both there at the same time. This was the end of August. And he rolled down the passenger window and handed me a sticky note. And I grabbed it. And I said, I know what you're going through. I can help you. Call me. And he gave me his number.
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Why would he suggest that?
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I had marks on my face.
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I wasn't, I mean, yeah.
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So did you call Mr. Townsend?
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Now, Isabel, there's allegations raised on the ground that, so to speak, that you've been brought in here, kind of thrown under the bus. Has anybody pressured you to testify in this cause?
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Now, Mr. Townsend testified that this was kind of an informal relationship. He characterized it as one of friends with benefits, correct?
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Okay. Did Mr. Townsend lead you to believe that he was single?
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Okay. There's digital data that's been introduced. They have text, I believe. Does some of that contradict his statement here in court?
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Well, that's why I asked. Why did you lie to me?
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Pardon me?
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That's why I asked. Texts that were introduced today. Why did you lie to me?
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Why is that?
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Because I didn't. He was separated from his wife. And then I found out that he was now back together with her. So I said, why did you lie to me? Why all of a sudden are you wearing your wedding ring again?
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I see. Did Jeremy come by the house often?
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Every day.
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Every day?
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Every day.
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Morning, night, what times?
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He would come by in the mornings. Well, initially, we would meet at the school. He would drop his son off when our relationship first started, and I would have Isabella and Aiden, and we'd show up early, and we'd sit in the school car line, and he'd come back to the truck. where I had my kids and we'd all just converse in the morning while we sat there and waited until school started.
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Sometimes Vanessa would come out and get Trent out of his truck early and take him in because she was a teacher there. And then he would leave, go off to work. He worked in, he did landscaping. He had a partnership landscaping business. And I worked from home. So from there, probably in December, because prior to that, I did Beachbody from home. I was doing Beachbody sales from home.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And he used to, you know, she would go to sleep on the couch, and he would drug her water, and I would tuck her in, and I would, like, give her my stuffed animal to protect her. And obviously it's not, it's a stuffed animal, it's not going to protect her, but it was just... Like the act and the principle of it.
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Social anxiety. I had never, ever, ever, ever been to a gym before. He was going to Gold's Gym, which I don't remember what Austin said it's called now. But anyways, it was the Gold's Gym where he was a member of. And I was like, okay, that's fine. But I don't know how to use anything. I'm not going to go in and do it because I only worked out from home through videos.
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So he goes, no, I know somebody there. It was a female because I wasn't comfortable with males. And he set me up with Rebecca Filmer, a personal trainer. That's how I met Austin and Becca. Becca and I became really close. We would go out dancing on Fridays. My social life just kind of expanded from there. I started to see that there was a life outside of my home.
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I mean, little as it was, but it was still nice.
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Now, did you ever confide in Jay about your situation with Mike? No.
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Yes. So that all happened at the beginning. Obviously, he had seen that I had marks on my face. So I called him and we did meet at the park after that to talk. And that's, we met a few times. And it was just talking, friendship. And it was nice to have somebody to talk to, but he told me about his history in the military.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He also told me that he was a bodyguard for some professional boxer, and I cannot remember the name. He would travel and be his bodyguard whenever he was on tour. He told me that he was in special op. He served on the Bush administration in Washington, D.C., as security. Tons of stuff. Sniper, told me everything.
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Okay. We saw those contradictions with his testimony, correct? Mm-hmm. Did Mr. Townsend make any representations to you that he would protect you from Michael?
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Yes, from the very beginning.
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Tell me if I ever needed anything, that I could contact him. And it was, he was always on top of it. If Becca and I went out dancing in the evening, he would come over. He would see me before we went out. And while we were out, he would call. And we would have to send him a picture to show him that we were there where we were.
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And when I left, I would have to let him know that I was on my way home. And then also let him know that I had gotten home. He knew everything. He had everything. He kept track of me every step of the way.
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Was there a period of time when your father was removed from the residence?
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Let's talk about the event that's landed you here. Shift gear over there, okay? Michael was out of the house at that time?
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Is it my understanding he'd been living at the airport?
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Yes. So the battery had happened in 2004. The state imposed an injunction. DCF was involved. Mike went through counseling, everything like that. Mike was all that I knew. And during that time period, we both dated other people. I mean, you all heard that. Once everything was up, I guess you could say, we started talking again.
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But DCF had been in the house, and they said that as long as he was not in the picture, everything was okay.
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Yes, there was.
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But if he came back... They were going to take action.
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Yeah. So they had offered... To move me and the two kids, change our names, change our socials. We had already moved so much. We finally were in a good school. The kids had good friends. And there was a point where Isabel had asked, you know, is this where we're going to live now? And I said, yep, we're never moving again. This is where we're staying. I went to a great school, great friends.
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Father removed from the residence on a pick?
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As a consequence of these events?
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So when DCF came in and offered that, I'm like, nope, I'm strong now. I'm going to go to counseling. I went to Celebrate Recovery for codependency. I was going to livestream counseling. I thought I had it. So I'm like, nope, I'm going to stand my ground.
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And so I didn't leave. Dated. Obviously, those relationships sucked, failed. And I went back. I left Michael.
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And during the period or the absence of your father, did your mother start dating anybody?
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Did it work out?
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Nope. We tried. He was back in the house maybe two weeks. Well, in September of 2014, he was back in the house two weeks. And then I should have learned my lesson then, but I didn't. And then in 2015, when we had gotten back together, Wilma Nichols, our neighbor, very nosy lady, Mike would go to work. We would pick him up at L.J. Yates' house, who has not testified. L.J. Yates lived on 33.
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He also worked at Disney. Mike would drive home. From Disney to his house. And we would pick him up there and bring him back to the house. And he would duck so nobody would see him. And then he would sleep there all day. He built a privacy wall on our back patio so Wilma couldn't see. And she had to put a gate so that she could just come over whenever she wanted.
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So we put a lock on there so she couldn't do that. And then he worked overnights. So about 7 o'clock we would take him back. To LJ's house, and then he would go from there to work, and we continued that for a long time.
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After he had been removed for a while, she did start dating Jeremy.
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Okay. So this in the house, out of the house, that continued on and off, correct?
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Okay. So there did come a point in time. When you were later with Jeremy, correct? So that's later in time, correct, to those events?
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Yeah. It was a couple months later. Like I said, school had just started. I had went to school without dropping the kids off, whatever. I had marks on my face. Jeremy noticed. He sent me a message. I started talking to him. Obviously talking to him, him reassuring me. He was saying all the right things. I kind of felt for it. I'm not denying that. I did. It was nice, right?
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Because now I'm back into... Solid ground. Yeah. And it wasn't working, and I'm like, I'm right back into it. So, my birthday, Jeremy and I had talked about plans to go out shopping, going to the movies, going to hurricanes. You know, just hanging out for the day while the kids were in school. Mike was still in the house at that time.
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What was Jeremy's last name?
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And I had told him that I had just wanted to go out for the day, go shopping, get my nails done, whatever. And he absolutely refused. Refused. So I threw a fit as I was walking away from him. Well, he had given me my birthday presents as I was walking away.
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Townsman? I don't think I know his last name. It's something like that.
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He threw a... Let's not talk about specific events, okay? Okay. Okay. But there was an altercation arising out of that confrontation, correct? Okay. And so eventually, I take it, Michael's out of the house at a period of time. Okay.
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So I kicked him out. I think it was November 10th.
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Okay. We heard testimony from one witness that you were waving a gun at Michael, threatened him. Some witness, he said he got in between you.
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That was Robert Ricardo.
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Robert Ricardo. Did that ever happen?
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Okay. How often would Jeremy come to the residence?
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No, it did not.
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Why was Robert Ricardo at the residence?
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We were all hanging out. Barbecue, whatever. I honestly don't remember. We were all on the back porch. There was drinking involved. Mike became irate. I went into the bedroom. He tried coming over me at the dresser. Robert stood in between. He separated him. Mike left the property. We couldn't get a hold of him. We called 911 in fear of Michael doing something to himself.
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There was a 911 call for that. They did make contact with him, and that was that. But no, there was no gun involved on that evening.
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Okay. The gun that's been introduced in the evidence, was this gun used in the commission of this case?
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No, it was not.
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What happened to that gun?
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I've never seen it again.
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Who would have taken it?
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Jeremy was the last one that had it.
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Let's transgress into this event that led to these charges. Lori, okay? Do you remember the event? You're in the house, correct?
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He was over all the time. I mean, he came over for holidays. He was there for my brother's birthday. His son went to the same school as me and my brother, so he would meet up at our house every day before we'd go to school. And he was at the school for all the plays, the events, all that type of stuff. He was over all the time.
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I was in the house initially. Michael did not enter the house.
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Okay. Was it morning, noon? Take us through it.
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Okay. And tell the jurors how this transpired.
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I got up the whole, got my coffee, and then that's when I noticed he was sitting out on the back patio. We had two tables. There was like one long line, and then there was a smaller round table with two chairs. I seen him sitting there. So I got the kids. I don't remember if it was Pop-Tarts, breakfast bars, whatever. They're Ovaltine. They always had Ovaltine. They had tables in their bedrooms.
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I went in and got them their clothes, gave them their breakfast, turned on the TV, and I just said, you know, get your breakfast, get ready for school, which they did. Just like every other morning, I'm going to go out and take care of the animals. We had over 400 birds. We had pigs. I rescued a horse. There was lots of animals on the property.
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So that was not a normal for me to go outside while they were inside getting ready. So I went out there, but I knew he was sitting out there. I could see him through the kitchen window out in the back patio. So I went out there. And we started talking and it escalated. I went to walk back in because this wasn't going anywhere and he was not leaving. And I opened the sliding glass door to go in.
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And when I did that, he took my phone and slammed it up against the sliding glass door. There was an imprint of my phone on that sliding glass door. He grabbed my arm, pulled me down into his lap. And the furthest chair that was... I don't have a picture in front of me, but the sliding glass door, there was like a post. And there was a... We had like a bistro table sitting there in front.
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And on this further side, I guess, in front of the sliding glass door, there was a chair. So he had pulled me down in his lap. He was holding on to me. And at that point... I was just trying to convince him, like, okay, okay, okay. We'll work it out.
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What's he saying to you during that, Maury?
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He's just, he's, I was talking at that point. I was scared. That's what I'm saying. Okay, okay, okay. We can work it out because that's what I did every single time because I was scared. And he told me not this time.
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Was he upset about anything in particular that you're aware of?
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Yes, he found out I had gotten pregnant.
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Okay. So is he mentioning that in his discussion or what?
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Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, not at that time. It was previously before he pulled me into his lab. But, I mean, he knew.
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Would he come in the morning?
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So I was like, okay, okay, okay, we'll work it out. Because at that point, I had already had the abortion.
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So are you facing the house or facing away from the house? Tell us your direction.
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I'm facing, looking out the back. I'm on the back porch, but I'm not looking into the house.
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Yeah, morning, night.
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Okay. Now, he spins you around, and you're in the chair, I take it?
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I'm in his lap. He's holding me there.
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Did he ever spend the night there?
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And then he pushed me to the ground.
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Okay. As he pushes you to the ground, does he do anything? No.
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After he pushed me to the ground, he was kicking me in the stomach.
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Okay. Presuming you were pregnant or something.
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Yeah, and I had already told him I had the abortion, and I was screaming at that point.
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Okay. Is he making any threats to do any harm to you, any serious bodily harm?
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Yeah, I mean, he said not this time. He said I was not getting away.
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Not this time. I mean, we had been through so many events, but that's not the first time. I mean, he had pulled a gun out. He had Publix in Claremont. This was not the first time.
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Would y'all go to places with Mr. Townsend or Jeremy?
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Okay, let's not talk about prior events. Okay? Yeah, I'm sorry. So you're on the ground, and he's kicking you.
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In the stomach.
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Okay. Is he kicking you hard?
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Yes. Okay.
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Is he making any... Okay. Is he making any statements of any intent to kill you or anything of that nature?
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Okay. Is he speaking in such a level that the children could hear this?
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Oh, yeah. We both were.
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I was screaming. Okay.
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Okay. As he's doing this, and he's not relenting on it, did he have his foot anywhere?
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Yes, we would.
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Well, that went on for a few minutes, and then he put his foot on my face.
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Was he there for Christmas?
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Smashing it into the patio, porch, whatever you want to call it.
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As he has his foot on your face, sit on the front of your face, the side of your face.
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I was facing him. Now I'm facing, I'm curled up facing the house. And he, it was just like this.
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Not Christmas Day, but Christmas Eve.
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Is he continue to yell? Is he yelling at you?
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Not at that point. No, no. We were sitting there and I could not yell anymore. He's just sitting in the chair as he's smashing my face into the porch.
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What's the next thing you recall?
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The next thing I see is, I can't even say I seen her. I more or less heard it. And then I think I seen her.
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Was he there for any other holidays or special events?
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When you say her, who are you referring to?
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Isabel. What's Isabel do?
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Now, when Isabel fires this gunshot, do you see where it lodged into Michael or what?
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He was there for my brother's birthday. I don't really remember any other holidays, but I know he was there for my brother's birthday and Christmas.
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I could not.
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Where are you after Isabel fires the gun?
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Still on the ground.
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And the next thing you recall?
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The next thing I recall is seeing Jay, Jeremy, and hearing the gunshot essentially at the same time.
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Is there much time that goes by between Isabel shooting the gun and Jay taking out our journey?
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No. It felt like forever. I remember looking at her.
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Had you gotten off the ground?
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No. No, I had not. Michael was still sitting in that chair.
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After Jay comes, you hear Jay discharge the firearm. And after Jay discharges the firearm... What do you hear next or observe next?
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Well, at that point, I started crawling away, but Michael fell forward out of the chair.
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Fell forward on the chair?
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Out of the chair.
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Okay. Was that after Jeremy shot or after Isabel shot?
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After Jeremy makes that shot into Michael, what happens after that?
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Do you remember going shopping or out on the town with Mr. Townsend?
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I got up. We went into the house. We went into Isabel's room.
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Who has the gun at that point?
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I don't recall that he had the gun. I don't know. He was the last one with the gun.
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Okay. Did you see Isabel carrying it after that?
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No, no. But it wasn't carried into her room where we were having a conversation.
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Now, Jeremy makes that shot. You get up. You go into the house. Are any statements made by Jeremy there?
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Yes. So he tells me to take the kids, get them out of the house, and he would take care of it. He insinuated that if we said anything, that she would be taken away. And he said that he was not going to take the blame for this.
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Yeah, we used to go to the Chick-fil-A a lot, one of the ones with the playgrounds. And we'd go with his son and then me and my brother. We did that a lot.
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So what did you do?
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I took the kids. I left. That's what I always did. I took the kids and I left.
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Where did you take them?
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I took them to school. I wanted to get back home. I did not know what was going to happen after that, but I wanted to get the kids out. And the only place I had to take them was school. It wasn't that far away.
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So you take the kids to school, come back to the house. Is Michael there?
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Is Jay there?
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No. No. No. And we had a conversation with Aiden. I remember that. He had obviously heard commotion. He didn't know what happened. He didn't see it. He was in his room, which was at the further end of the house. And I had just told him, your dad's gone away for a long, long time and insinuated that he was going to jail.
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Now, did you see any fresh dug holes on the property as you walked about it or moved about it beyond that point?
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When Jeremy said, I'll take care of this, did you have any reason to believe that that body was on your property?
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Absolutely not, no.
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No, never. There's no way he could have. I wasn't gone that long where he could have. Finding out the dimension? No. Mm-mm. He came back. It was probably about 2 in the afternoon.
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Do you know if Mr. Townsend or Jeremy was married?
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Now, did you know whether or not his family had property elsewhere?
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Did you make any assumptions that it may have been taken somewhere else?
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And I had questioned him about that. They had 30 acres. He said 5. He had told me 30 acres. I don't know what's true or what's not anymore. But I was told they had 30 acres. I asked him that.
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After that event, What happened to your relationship with Jeremy?
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It ended. I had found out. I mean, I became pregnant. We were talking about getting engaged. We went and looked at houses. And then I find out that he's now trying to work it out with his wife. And then that happened. And I was so overwhelmed at that point. I ended it.
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I don't think so.
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Isabel, I'm sorry, but I have to do this. Let's talk about Michael. Your father. Do you know anything about the death of your father?
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The relationship ends between the two of y'all. You go on with your life. At some point in time, you meet Travis. Yes. When did Travis come into your life?
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At the end of May.
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Pardon me?
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He came by the house at the end of May. My sister was there. He came by. Becca, Austin were there. We had a get-together, and he was there.
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Did you have any discussion with Travis and relay that, you know, Michael was dead or any discussion about that?
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No. I never mentioned it to anybody.
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There later came a point in time when this patio was built, correct? The fire pit?
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Tell us, we've heard circumstances about that. How did that end up and why did that end up being placed at that location?
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It was a big open area in the backyard. When Jeremy and I were together, it was an idea that we would lay concrete down. He was supposed to help me with it. That's why the concrete was bought in January of 2016, I think it was. We sat down, we talked about the dimensions of it, and he was explaining to me how to calculate how much concrete you would need and whatnot. I went out and bought it.
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And then bought it, unloaded it into the shed. And it sat there until September, later that year.
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And then you had broken up with Jeremy, correct? And then later you take up with Travis. Correct. Correct. And eventually this fire pit gets dug, correct? Or had been dug, prepped for a duck pond, correct?
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They didn't dig anymore. Yeah.
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Do you know anything about how your father died?
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It had been dug out, my understanding, for a duck pond, correct?
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Yeah, previously. That was even previous to Jeremy.
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Yeah. And y'all abandoned that attempt or effort. So you move on.
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Now, there was, Ms. Johnson was appointed as an attorney ad litem to represent you.
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I mean, it was just like, it was just an outline. We didn't even dig deep into it.
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So Travis comes along, some time passes, and y'all elect to put the patio there.
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Could you tell the jury? So, it was a school day, and, I'm sorry, and he... First, let's relax, go slow, make sure the jury understands the events, okay? Okay.
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Yeah, that was the original plan.
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You've broken up with, Travis.
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Jeremy. Excuse me. I apologize. You've broken up with Jeremy. Now, Wilma next door testified that they detected an odor about your property. Was there any odor floating about on your property?
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No. I mean, we had rescued one pig. We got another, a wild male and female. They had babies. And Robert Seha and his wife, they had horses. They also had dogs. They were renting the back property to keep some of their horses. And they had dogs. And... There was a few occasion where the dogs had come up and with the little pigs, it's not a pretty sight.
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So I don't know if that's what she was smelling. And with the birds, like I said, with 400 birds, we used to slaughter them. I used to cut the chicken meat. We had ducks, guinea fowl, quail. We had tons. I had a license to sell. We sold to a restaurant in Winter Garden. There was an obvious odor. Yes.
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So when y'all prepped this area and you put the patio down, did you and Travis put your initials in the concrete?
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Would you have done that if you knew there was a body underneath there? Would you have posted photographs on the Internet or on social media?
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Absolutely not.
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If you had knowledge that there's a body underneath there?
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Absolutely not. If I knew, everything would have changed, everything that occurred. The only reason why we laid the patio when we did was because we were trying to have this huge birthday party for Isabel. Robert Seha and his wife, they had the horses. And we invited essentially everybody from Pine Ridge to the house. And they were going to have the horses going through the backyard.
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And the kids could do hand printing on them. So we did that. So we were just trying to level everything out, make it look nice, have a gathering place. That's all that it was. That's why it wasn't placed until right before her birthday in September.
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place for people to stand and sit on.
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Yeah, just to level the ground out. I mean, it was sitting in the shed, had been sitting there since the beginning of the year. We just decided that was the right time to do it.
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Now, there's been talk about and documents introduced regarding this social media, Facebook, etc. Do you know who posted some of those images, any of those images?
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There's images from your account, Michael's account, other accounts. Did Jay have access to social media at your house?
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Yes. Oh, a lot of people did. Everybody had access to the Wi-Fi password. It was America One. Scotty Matuccio, Jay, Frank, Wilma, everybody. You could not be at that house without being connected to Wi-Fi if you wanted to have connection to anything. We kept the password straight. It was America One. Everybody knew it. I posted those things on my Facebook.
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Okay. It was a school morning. Me and my brother were getting ready for school. He hadn't been at the house for a while. He was kicked out and moved. And me and my brother were in separate rooms where we hadn't pretty much been ready for school. I was... I knew my breakfast and I was watching TV. We had these like little plastic tables in our rooms and I was watching TV and I heard arguing.
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I did not post those things to Michael's Facebook.
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There's timeframes where the states made issue of this account being open and that account being open. Do you have any explanation for that?
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I don't. I mean, I was on Facebook every single day. My job required me to investigate people, so I was always on the Internet, social media, investigating people.
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We've heard testimony as well that those accounts can be accessed remotely, off-site, and contain the same IP address, correct? Yes. That somebody can be in the house, sharing the same router, sharing the same IP address, correct? Yes. We've seen, and the state has introduced into evidence at this stage, a tarp that was in this pit. Did y'all have ownership of a blue tarp?
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Not at that point. We had a tarp when we got a pool. I know Travis bought a tarp to put under the pool.
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Later when you were with Travis?
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Did you have one at the time of the demise of Michael Shaver?
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Not to my knowledge.
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Did you have the strap wrenches that were introduced or the straps themselves on your property?
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No, not to my knowledge. When I went and got the concrete and stuff, I did not do anything with strap wrenches or anything like that.
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The laminate flooring, the laminate flooring that was testified to, did you have the same or similar laminate flooring on your property?
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No, no. The flooring, the remodeling that was done was done before we even moved in. When we bought that house, we got it at a really good price. It was kind of, it wasn't in foreclosure, but the inside essentially looks like it was in foreclosure. There was, the floors and the rooms were destroyed from previous dogs. And I'm OCD and very clean. And we hired somebody to come in and clean it.
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And Michael went in and changed all the flooring in that house before I would allow us to even move in and bring the kids in there because it was disgusting.
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Was Austin Fillmore, or Austin, was he at the house when that pit was poured, the patio?
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He testified he was.
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He was not. He was not there. Travis and I did that ourselves. And originally, Travis thought he could do it by himself, and then he went and rented the mixer. We didn't realize that, I mean, it was a big area. He had never done that before. I don't know. I guess he thought it was going to be easier just mixing up some bags, but that's why he ended up going and running the mixer.
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We saw the photographs of the distance between the residence and the gravesite. Did you back at that period of time, and we see your photos, were you that physical size back in that time period?
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Did you have the physical capability even of moving that body?
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160 pound man? No. No. When I was at the gym working out, I could probably do 30 pounds. Prior to getting a personal trainer, I was working out from home with just hand weights. Did I have an endurance? Yes. I ran marathons.
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Initially I thought it was a TV and then I was like, no, that's not the TV. So my room, it had, it was my room and then it had a bathroom and then a spare room. And so they all connected to each other, like, through the bathroom. It was almost like a little, like, pathway. And so I heard, you know, the fighting and the yelling, and it escalated. So I went.
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Lori, the jurors are going to ask themselves, why didn't you call the police? Scared? Scared of what Jay had said or Jeremy had said?
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I didn't know what to do. I had just been beaten. Like, everything just happened so suddenly. I didn't know what to do. That's why all I wanted to do was get the kids out and get back home. And when I came back home, he was not there. Jeremy was not there. And I could not get a hold of him. He came back that afternoon.
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There was testimony Isabel gave about after you broke up with Jeremy.
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about him continuing to follow you yes okay tell the jurors about those events there was times i think isabella mentioned i went to go i was already dating travis i went to go pick him up from the church and i'm at the intersection and jeremy's there right beside me yelling and screaming at me to roll down the windows and then proceeds to follow us to real life
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We used to shop at the Publix Claremont 27, and he would just pop up and then start questioning, you know, what are you guys doing? Where are you going? Have you said anything? Make sure you don't say anything. So then we started going to the Publix in Groveland, and all of a sudden he would start showing up there. Target, same thing. Walmart, that's where he showed me his tattoo.
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It was the summer of 2016, and I was with Travis. And he lifted up, we were in the cereal aisle at Walmart, and he lifted up his shirt and showed me his tattoo in front of my kids and everybody else standing in the aisle of a skull.
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It was a skull?
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Did Jeremy occasionally drive by the residence?
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Yes. So when we moved... Got this place, and we put six cameras up outside our property because we noticed there was an increase in traffic. And I was really paranoid going anywhere. I mean, I look at my surroundings before I get out. I was always afraid that he was following. I mean, I had...
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
was picking the kids up for school before we even had moved and he had gotten out of his truck and ran down the middle of the road straight at my truck yelling and screaming in front of the school on multiple occasions trying to get me to converse with him i had agreed to meet him on a couple occasions yes for like 10 minutes and we would have conversations of like nope haven't said anything.
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He wanted me to wait for him, wanted everything to settle down with his wife, and I refused. So when we moved, once somebody was found, I lost my dog. Travis was a youth leader at the time. He started working for a granite company. Finances had gotten really tight. We found a home that we could afford. We got the cameras, and Jeremy was caught on those cameras on a couple occasions going by.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
If I'd seen him now, I would not recognize him if he was standing in front of me.
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Go back a bit. You spoke about, and you have images, clear images, as to the events that would happen on a regular basis. Let's reflect back on that, though. Were these acts events that would cause serious bodily harm to you?
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I always, when I was little, I would go through there to, like, sneak around. And I opened the spare room door, and in front of the spare room door was the dining room. And in front of the dining room, there was a glass door, like a sliding glass door. So I opened the door to the spare room and I stood there and I saw my father and he wasn't supposed to be there.
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Were these events that would involve likewise domestic violence, shouting, and threats?
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Yes, that and more.
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Do you believe that you would be here today but for the act of Isabel?
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Sorry, what?
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Did you meet with Ms. Johnson?
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Lori, have you testified from your heart the truth of these events? Have I left anything out that you feel that you need to tell the juries to clarify any issues that you've spoken of at this stage?
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I mean, there's a lot I would like to get out.
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Okay, direct me to the topic. I know we can't go into the detail of these events, though. Okay. Aside from that, is there anything else?
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Michael had a lot of anger. No, please. Sustained.
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we've spoken about yes the latitude correct but we can't get really i know i know the best subjection your honor this isn't a question all right sustained just correct understand that you don't know yes sir all right please ask a question if you wish so aside from the issues that we've spoken about the temperament and the disposition and the atmosphere
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and all the matters that we've discussed. Is there anything else that you feel that the jury should know?
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Objection. Your honor calls for narrative. It's not. Sustained. Please ask a specific question.
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Is there a topic that we have not discussed?
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No, nothing that I'm going to be able to talk about at this time.
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All right. Thank you, Judge.
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All right, let's have a sidebar. All right, state, you may proceed. Ms.
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That's okay. Now, the biggest question I have for you, because you didn't mention it once in your entire story, is when did your husband get killed?
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The exact date, I cannot recall. It was beginning of May of 2016. It was not November.
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Okay. So sometime, you don't know, but sometime in May of 2016 is when this happened. Okay. Now, your phone number prior to this homicide was 352-431-0419, correct? You don't know your phone number?
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That's not my phone number now.
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You don't... I don't... No, I do not recall my... Okay.
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But if that's the phone number that is from all those screenshots between you and Jeremy Townsend that you saw, would that refresh your memory that that was your phone number?
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Okay. And you, at some point, changed your number to 352-431-8444, correct? Yes.
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I don't believe, I can't recall that because at some point I put my parents on my phone line.
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You remember seeing the court document that was submitted into evidence where you put your address and phone number on it?
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And that 8444 number was what you listed?
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Yeah. I don't remember the phone numbers from back then. And since then, I have also had my parents on my phone bill.
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My question was whether or not that was your phone number. You agree that the 8444 number was your phone number based on that court document?
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You would have been truthful in a court document, correct? Yes. Okay. Now, also, one of the statements that you made, I think you said you wouldn't recognize Jeremy?
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Today, when he walked in, I would have never recognized him today. That's not what he looks like.
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All right. Now, you mentioned the fact that he had this skull tattoo. You have a skull tattoo, too, right? All right. So that doesn't really mean anything.
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I had mine way before. Okay.
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Now, you were saying that you met Jeremy Townsend in August of 2015. Yes.
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Yes. At the end of August.
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And that he passed you some sort of post-it note. Yes. All right. And you had talked about because you had marks on your face or something like that. Is that a yes? All right. Now, according to you, Michael Shaver had left the residence. In November of 2015, correct? Your residence.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And my mom and my father were fighting and my mom went to leave, like leave the argument, leave the porch, they were out on the porch. And he pulled her by the arm. And he pulled her into her lap onto one of the porch chairs. And he held her there. And then she was like, we can work things out. We'll figure this out. It'll be different. And he was like, no, there's no next time.
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All right. I had kicked him out. All right. Well, I thought that you were the type of person that would just shut down and retreat and couldn't confront anybody. That was your words, right?
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No, I said that I'm not the type of person where if you come at me and say something, like belittling me or anything like that, I shut down and retreat. I'm not confrontational. All right. That was in the context... Of me and my daughter.
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Did you discuss your case with Ms. Johnson?
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But you were confrontational with Mike Shaver?
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Yeah, I told him to get out because he knew that if I called the cops, he would definitely be kicked out and he would be picked up. So, yes, it was pretty much easy to get him out.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Let's try to figure out this by one. In September of 2014... He was arrested for domestic abuse, correct? Correct. And that is when he went to the airport hangar, correct? Where he started living. Yeah. Did he move back into the house after that?
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All right. When did that happen?
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I don't know the exact time. It was... How long had he been gone? He had been gone over a year.
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All right. So sometime in 2015.
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It was, yeah, probably summer of 2015.
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So if the arrest was in September of 2014, approximately six to eight months that he was gone?
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No, it was greater than that because he had finished his probation period.
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And in that incident, he also suffered injuries, correct? Yes. Because you hit him over the head with a gun, correct?
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Well, he had the gun pointed at my head. And at that point, I was done. I thought I was giving up at that point. I had nothing left in me until I seen my kids come out and start screaming. And as soon as I seen them, I took and slammed that gun into his head.
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Have you ever told anyone that he was not at fault for that incident? No. No. Did you throw a vase of flowers into the sliding glass door and break that?
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I did. We're good in this specific conduct, but the stain is moved to explode.
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Can we approach, please? Five R, please. During that incident, did you throw a vase breaking the sliding glass door? Okay. And you also broke objects in the bathroom, correct?
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No, I did not.
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There's pictures of the sliding glass door from that incident. You've seen those, correct? Yes. And other items in the house that were broken, correct?
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Along with the injuries to you and the injuries to Mr. Shaver.
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The only injury that I was aware of was to his head.
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Okay. And his pants were torn, correct?
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He would hold my keys in his pants and would not let me leave the residence. So after I hit him in the head, pushed the gun into his head, I had to reach into his pocket and grab my truck keys so that I could evade property with my children and get to safety.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, after he left in November of 2015... Okay. Got it straight now? Okay. After he left in November of 2015, was this incident, which ultimately led to his death, the first time that he came back? Yes, it was. Okay. So then in August... I'm sorry, you're saying you actually started a relationship with Jeremy Taliesin in August of 2015?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There's no figuring it out. And he pushed her onto the ground. He pushed her onto the ground. And he started kicking her in the stomach and in the back. And then he took his other foot and he put it on.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We started talking in August, and Michael was still at the residence.
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Okay. So after November of 2015, he does not come back to the house? Correct. So that check that was sent to him and deposited in his account, he would not have received, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know. He got his mail.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How did he get his mail if he wasn't at the house?
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The mailbox was not at my residence. It was at the end of the road.
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Okay. So after he left in November of 2015, are you saying that he would just come by every day to pick up his mail?
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I don't know what he did.
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Did you ever notice any mail missing?
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How would I know if it was missing?
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Did you ever notice any of your stuff missing?
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Did he ever notice any mail coming for Michael Shaver to that address after he left?
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Yes, a few things.
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What would you do with that in order to get it to him?
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I would take it back to the post office and do return mail. No longer at this address.
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Where was it going?
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I don't know.
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Where was he?
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I don't know. I assumed probably back at the hangar.
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If he left in November of 2015 and went to go live at the hangar, why would he quit his job at Disney?
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Because there was a sexual harassment charge against him.
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Okay. You've heard that his supervisor came in and said there was no such thing and there's nothing in those records, correct?
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Oh, I did. I heard that.
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Are you saying that Disney falsified those records?
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The sexual harassment complaint filed against him came directly from Michael's mouth.
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Okay. You had access to his bank accounts, correct?
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Yes, he had access to mine as well.
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And you with money from his accounts, correct?
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And deposited money, correct? Right.
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In November of 2015, what deposits were you making in his account?
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I have no idea. I'm not sure that I was.
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Did he deposit that Mariner check into his account?
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No. I have no idea what that is. All right.
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The money from the sale of all of his property, how did you get that to him?
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Well, it was not necessarily his property. It was on his guns.
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the side of her face and she was screaming and he was like saying there's not going to be another time and that he was going to kill her at this time and i heard my mom screaming for help obviously and then he put his foot on the side of her face and pushed it into the ground and i didn't hear her anymore and sorry and so i went to my mom's room And I went at her end table, and I grabbed her gun.
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Okay, so after he was arrested and... My question was, how did you get the money from the sale of his guns to him if you didn't know where he was?
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I did not give him the money from the sale of the guns. Those were not his guns.
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Would you have any way, if you say you don't even know where he is, would you have any way of getting him any of that money?
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No, I never said I gave him money.
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You just said you deposited money into his account.
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No, I mean, that was throughout the whole marital. I would deposit money and take out money. He worked overnights. So during the day, if he needed anything, any shopping and all that for the well-being of the house and the kids, I would do that during the day because he was sleeping because he worked overnights.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
As far as the Facebook records, all the stuff from the Lori Shaver Facebook account, you would agree you posted, correct? None of that stuff was anybody hacking you or anything like that?
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It did not appear so.
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You had access to Michael Shaver's Facebook, correct?
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Previously.
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How did you have access to his account?
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Well, previously we had a joint account. After we had separated in 2014, I believe we separated emails. Facebook, prior to that, everything was joint. After that, we went from a joint bank account to bank accounts, to emails, to Facebooks. Prior to that, everything was joint because he controlled everything.
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Did Ms. Johnson go over all the rights that you would waive by testifying in this case?
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Did you have his password?
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Previously, well, it was a joint password because it was a joint account.
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When did he start his own account?
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After we had separated in 2014.
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Did you have his password for that account?
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Well, that was our account. Okay.
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When you said he started his own account, my question is, all right, did you ever post anything on his account?
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No, I did not.
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Did your daughter have his password?
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I don't believe so.
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Was anyone else living in your house after May of 2016 that had access to his phone or password for Facebook?
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I don't know about the password, but there was two tablets. There was a laptop and a desktop.
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Did they have his Facebook profile in it?
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Everything was automatic. Everything was already logged in. So all you had to do was just log it, like open it up, and you were automatically logged in.
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Was your daughter posting on his Facebook?
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Was your son posting on his Facebook? No. Now, did you ever tell anyone that after he left in November of 2015 that he was in jail for failing to pay child support?
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That wasn't true, correct?
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No, it was not. That was an old manager that I had a relationship with way back when, and he had moved back from Connecticut to Florida and was reaching out to me, and he was... Curious.
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That's Rameen, correct? Correct. When you say relationship, that's another affair, correct?
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But you told him that Mike was in jail for failing to pay child support and his license was suspended, correct?
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I didn't give him my personal information and he was asking about that because... Okay, wait, wait, hold on one second.
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How is Mike being in jail your personal information?
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Accurate personal information because he was questioning. Because prior to that, there was conversations where Michael had threatened once again after finding out to kill me.
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So when you told your manager that you had a prior affair with that Mike was in jail, that was a lie. Did you tell your sister that you guys had been working out of separation agreements?
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Well, we actually did work out a separation agreement, and it was filed with the court.
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In order to do that, you have to get a... Was that here in Lake County?
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Okay, so there is some sort of divorce proceeding with your name on it and Michael Shavers, because you just said you filed something in court, correct?
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I did not say divorce. You said separation. So after 2014, after that incident, we both had attorney representation, and Michael and I came up with an agreement, handwritten. We both signed it. That was filed.
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At this courthouse.
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What case is that in?
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Whatever the prior DCF is, and I had won that case with no adjudication. I don't know where that record is, but it was filed. And in that agreement, he agreed to pay X amount of money. I would keep the kids. He could not take the kids. He would see them. every other weekend, whatever. We had that separation. I made more money than he did. I covered the health insurance. I covered the kids.
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I kept the house. He was moving out of the house and he was going to pay X, Y, Z. That was a handwritten document that both of us signed in front of the mediator at this DCF agreement that I won with no adjudication.
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Was there ever a divorce proceeding started?
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No, there was not. Not in the state of Florida.
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After 2015, was there ever a divorce proceeding started?
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When law enforcement came and asked you about the whereabouts of your husband, you were not truthful with them, correct?
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I didn't know where he went.
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You know what happened to him, correct? Right. You didn't tell him that, correct? The Walmart purchase that was on your husband's bank account, you did that, correct? Yes.
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I don't recall doing that.
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That was sent to your house with your name on it, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't recall the exact parameters around it or what I bought or anything like that.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So this event happens in May of 2016, correct? Yes. Your relationship with Jeremy Townsend and very fultrously in May of 2016, correct? Is that a yes?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And your relationship with Travis Filmer then begins in May of 2016, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He came over at the end of May, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And I went back out, and I went to the door. The door was already open. And he had my mom on the ground still, still holding her to the ground, still kicking her. And I shot him. And nothing happened. He didn't fall. Nothing happened. And then Jeremy.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you were actually engaged to him in July of 2016, correct? Yes. In April of 2016, Rebecca Urbanowski was living with you, correct? Correct. And the fire pit itself was built in March of 2016? Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I guess so.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's when you posted it, right? And then how big was your property? And out of all of that land, you just happened to choose the area where your dead husband's body was found to put that cement block. That's basically what you're saying here, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I figured they did not know his body was there. It went there because the area was already dug out.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Quite a coincidence, you'd agree, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, not necessarily. Not if you realize the whole parameters of what came first and how that all transpired. Like I said, that was something that Jeremy and I had originally talked about doing because I'd gotten rid of the animals and we had the fire pit and we were talking about wanting to, I mean, it was his suggestion to put in concrete.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So the March 2016, when you put that fire pit in, and two months later is when your husband is still on your property, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. Concrete was not poured until September.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Correct. By you and your now husband.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But I had no knowledge that he was under there. If I was trying to cover him up, why would I do that so many months later? And only...
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I haven't asked you a question, ma'am. So the incident that led to your husband's death, Clinton had not been around for months, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And he just happens to show up sometime in May of 2016, correct? Correct.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It just happened. That was pretty typical of him being gone for months and then showing up and us getting back together.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And then during that time frame, this was sometime before you were going to take your kids to school, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, he was out on the porch when I went.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How was he dressed?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Shorts, t-shirt, sneakers.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And an argument between the two of you starts.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I went outside. I got the kids settled, and I went outside to talk to them. How old was your daughter at this point? Seven.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And is there a reason why you never talked to your daughter how to dial 911?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I mean, we just had cell phones. We didn't have a landline. She knew how to dial 911, but like I said, I had my cell phone on me. The security system that we had, she would not have been able to reach. It was above the keys where the door was.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When she said, I didn't know how to call 911, I'm asking why you wouldn't have taught her.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I did teach her how to call 911, but she didn't have a phone.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Now, your testimony is that she shot him, correct? Yes. And at that point, you were able to get out from underneath Mr. Shaver, correct? Correct.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I did not crawl away until he was falling to the ground. After she shot him, I was still looking at her, like, still comprehending everything that was happening. I wasn't two yet because he had been, had his foot on my face, smushing it into the ground. It took me, I mean, it wasn't that long, but it took me a little bit to kind of comprehend what was occurring. And then...
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After being shot, correct? Mm-hmm. He certainly didn't get up out of the chair after being shot, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, not until, no, no. After the second shot, he fell forward. The first shot, he sat in the chair.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At the time of his death, Mike Shaver was about 5'3"? 5'3"? Mm-hmm. 5'8", 5'10".
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. 5'2".
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The probable cause affidavit around the time of his arrest listed him at 5'3 and 130 pounds. You're saying that's inaccurate?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That was probably me.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, well, you weren't arrested, right?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
His probable cause from 2014?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. You're saying that that 5'3 and 130 pounds is inaccurate is what you're saying?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, definitely probably not what's on his driver's license. He was not 5'3. He was like 5'8 and 150, 160 pounds. Okay. I was 5'2 and 115'20.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When Mike left, he left his vehicle, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You're talking about the black car.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I'm talking about he had a vehicle and he left it behind, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
His black car had been sitting there for a while. He had a bent rim and the air in the tire could not stay inflated. So he was driving my truck back and forth to work.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My question was, when he left and moved out, he left his car, correct? And he left everything that he had that had any sort of value that could be sold, correct? Guns, tools, ATV, left all that behind.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He was sitting in the chair. He was sitting in the chair. Right. I'm not exactly sure. No. Right.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All the tools that were in the shed were of no use to him. They were like old tools and stuff like that, and it wasn't an ATV.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My question was, he left the stuff behind, stuff that he could have sold, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He stopped going to work and lost his job because of it, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was not aware of that at that time.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So he lost his ability to make any money, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was not aware of that at that time.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Prior to November of 2015, he would call you using the phone frequently, correct? Correct.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, because he was back in the house and we were working things, trying to work things out.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After November of 2015, there is absolutely no calls to you after that November 7th, 2015, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't recall.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There's not a single call to you, to the children, anything, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't recall.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There's no activity on his bank other than withdrawals from the ATM in Claremont, where you live, correct? I would not. November 2015, he just vanishes off the face of the earth. No one can account for him, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is it still your desire to testify?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't believe that's true.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But you've definitely not had any contact with him in any way since... until he shows up someday, which you do not know, in May of 2016 when this incident occurs, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, he showed up prior to May. At my property, but he was already causing trouble prior to that, which fits within his history of doing this.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My question to you previously was, after you kicked him out in November of 2015, and prior to him coming out the day that he was still, I asked you, did he ever come and have any contact with you? You said no, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not physically correct, but calls and stuff like that, yes. Calls? His threats, stuff like that.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You saw the phone records, which show absolutely no calls from him after November 7th, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He was communicating with Jeremy. I believe he had sent me text. He had sent me a nasty text prior to that, telling me I was just like my mom. Something to that effect. He was communicating.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
From your IP address.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know that that's my IP address. How can you verify that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Because it's the same IP address that your account that you said you used posted on as well.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, how do we know that he didn't post on my Facebook or log into my Facebook?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So what vehicle, the day that he showed up in May of 2016, what vehicle did he use to get to your house that day? What vehicle was in your yard that you didn't recognize that day?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. So he just walked? He just showed up without a vehicle in your house on the back porch?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not paying attention to that.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nothing further, Judge.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you, Mr. Wiggs. I don't have anything. Thank you, Judge. All right. Yes, sir. Thank you. You may step down from the witness stand. Any other witnesses, Mr. Wiggs? No. At this time, the defense will rest, Judge. All right. The defense has rested.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
From the rear region? Where do you think you shot?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was aiming towards his head, but I'm not sure where the bullet went.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And what happened after you fired the gun?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you understand your obligation to testify truthfully?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He was just sitting there. I mean, he wasn't moving. Nothing happened. There was no blood. There was no nothing. And then...
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, let me interject here and there if I may.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you feel when you fired that shot that that had to be done or he would have killed your mother?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, yes, yes. Firm on that? I'm firm on that.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was he using that type of force in your mind? Yes. Was necessary?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. What happened after you shot him or you believe you shot him?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
um afterwards jeremy came and he how long it was right like right after it happened like i hadn't even had a chance to walk away move nothing yet and um he came in and he took the gun from me and then he shot him again and that's when he fell to the ground and um my mom had crawled away he fell to the ground jeremy shot him um
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Are you going to testify truthfully?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He told my mom to take us out of the house, take us to school, and that we needed to leave. We're not to tell anybody. We can't tell nobody. We can't call the cops. We can't say anything. Or else he was going to do the same thing to me and my brother. And he was going to, you know, hurt us too. So we went to school.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm going to testify truthfully.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So you leave the residence, go to school. When you get to school, what happens?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Would you explain your relationship to Lori Shaver?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We get to school. I mean, nothing really happened at school. I would say I was most definitely in shock. But at the same time, it was like because those types of events happen often, I was very used to like, you know, like the violence and seeing things like that. And so I was still able to like perform normally at school. And just kind of, I mean, go about my day, be at school.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What time did you get out of school?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was in elementary school, so I think around like 3. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you came home, was Jay there?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, yes, he was. He was fixing the front door.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Lori Shaver is my mother. Me and her are very close. We... We've always been very close. She's, I mean, we do everything together. We're, I mean, I don't know. She's like my best friend and a mom in one.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there any evidence of your father in the residence?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did Jeremy make any mention about he'd take care of this or anything like that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah. When he told my mom to take us out of the house and he told us not to tell anybody, he said that he would take care of it.
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60 Seconds Of True Crime | Grandmother Mary Dawn Wilson Goes Missing in Alaska
69-year-old Mary Dawn Wilson went missing on July 12, 2022, after leaving a friend's home in Healy, Alaska. Her abandoned car was found at 1.30 a.m. on July 14 on the seven-mile marker of the Stampede Trail in Denali. Inside the locked car was her two-year-old granddaughter, whom Mary had been caring for. The little girl was in good health despite being alone in the car for two days.
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60 Seconds Of True Crime | Grandmother Mary Dawn Wilson Goes Missing in Alaska
She was later returned to relatives. The Alaska State Troopers and dogs searched the surrounding area for Mary, only finding some of her belongings scattered another mile down the trail. The search was called off on July 18th. Mary Dawn Wilson, who may also use the last name Stanley, was 69 years old when she went missing. She has gray hair and blue eyes.
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60 Seconds Of True Crime | Grandmother Mary Dawn Wilson Goes Missing in Alaska
She's 4 feet 10 inches tall and weighs 160 pounds. She was wearing a floral pink dress with multiple layers underneath and a cream-colored cuspic with green flowers. If you have any information about her case, please reach out to the Alaska State Troopers at 907- You can also make an anonymous report online.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
to be recalled in the future. But, Mr., any other questions at this time, Mr. Young, from this witness? I do. I do. That year, around Christmas, do you recall being given the items of evidence from the Adams County Sheriff's Department?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'm an AR nurse at Blessing Hospital, and I specialize in SANE. Well, let's talk about that. You say you're curious about what SANE is. Tell me what SANE is. I'm a sexual assault nurse examiner. I do exams on patients who have been sexually assaulted.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I myself base my life on being logical, being honest, being value to logic and honesty. It's my favorite pastime, present and future. Today I ask that those of you here be logical, not just the jurors who have the ability to judge this situation, but everybody. Logical as I would rather people be. Today, I will show you a lot of things that are not logical.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And on 11-9, did you notate the injuries of CL with Sloan? I did. Do you have a copy of that present? I do. Could you... possibly go to page six of step two it is a general exam continue i'll start there generally or normal as this normal procedure i would think you would notate all physical markings trauma markings descriptions right to the best of my ability the best of your ability can you uh
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Throughout this trial, I will show you a lot of things that are not logical. Persuasion is not logical. I myself, personally, I promise not to attempt to persuade you. Nor will I manipulate you. I do not find pleasure in doing such. As stated yesterday, I'm a pro se defendant. I'm held to the same standards as any attorney here today.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You've notated some markings here today on a screen and with the state's attorney. Can you read off the notations that you made in this general exam on the continued page?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Bruising to the dorsal side of the left hand, pain to the tailbone.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'm going to object. He's asked the witness to read. If he wants her to read, then she should be given the opportunity to answer the question and read what he said.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I do not expect you to feel sorry for me because I'm a pro-state defendant. I expect you to take it at what you value it as, along with agreeing with law, you know, taking the law into consideration. They say an opening statement is made to acquaint the finder of facts with yourself or with the claims and what you intend to prove. That's exactly what I do today.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I've lost it. In the objection, you may answer that question.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
bruise, four centimeters by three centimeters to the inner left buttock, redness to the right knee, and bruising to the left knee.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And as you said, you're a professional. Obviously, you can determine what bruising is, recent, prior, old, right? Sorry? You stated just a few minutes ago that number four, which you notated as redness to the right knee. You stated that that was a bruise minutes ago.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Myself, I would say proof is a rare thing to come by these days. No one has absolute proof except for, say, you have these cameras here in this room today and I can prove that you are here today. There's a lot of claims placed forth that do not have an effect that coincides with them. I intend to show and prove you that today and throughout this trial.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Redness and bruising sometimes can look similar.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
they, they can. Um, but you did in the exam on 11, nine, you know, 10 minutes written express. Correct. And, uh, as far as number one, bruising to dorsal side of left hand, that would be the top, right? Correct. And, uh, Number two, you described as, well, excuse me, CL probably described to you as pain to the tailbone area, right? Correct.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
What I also intend to prove you are blatant lies. Incredible and impossible happenings. We all know what incredible and impossible means. Impossible means not possible. Credible means it's not credible. I also intend to prove you improper procedure. Throughout this trial, you'll see some of the most major coincidences you've ever seen in your lives.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And number three, you obviously stated four centimeters by three centimeters. That's approximately the size, right? Not too big. It's not an inch wide, an inch in diameter, right? I'm going to object your honor, an inch is a little bit more than two centimeters, so four centimeters would be more than an inch. Excuse me, you're right. I apologize. I worded that wrong.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I want to talk to you about November 9th, 2021. Were you working in the emergency rooms that night? I was. When you were working in the emergency room that night, was there an occasion where you met with or conducted an exam of recursion that you would be questioning?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Number five, bruising to the left knee. That is correct, true? Yeah. Ms. Oglesby, you put an in-depth description on number three, and that was a bruise to the inner left buttock. Is there a reason that you did not put an in-depth size description on number one and number five?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And they are established, and I'm sure some of the witnesses will attest to them. There are major coincidences in this case. As stated, I talked about logical. I intend to show you that these things do not follow a definition of logic. I will show you what coercion, manipulation, and deceit is.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There's not.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And if you look at the picture, you obviously still have a number five. I believe that was... Just for the record, I don't think she has her pictures in front of her. Send the bell if you need her to make sure she moves on. So if you go to, I believe it is number 23, it shows the needs. Yes, yes ma'am, the needs.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I will show you what certain persons think it is absolutely funny to be vindictive, to lie, to place forth claims, and that would be from the horse's mouth. I will prove to you reason for false testimony from some who may or may not testify throughout this adventure. I'll show you how other law enforcement think these events that are alleged to have happened are quite odd themselves.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And if you observe the left knee, could you give a brief description of maybe the size of that to the best of your knowledge based on your professionalism?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'm unable to recall due to the size of the picture.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Stating such in an indirect way, that is law enforcement, and I intend to prove that to you. I wish any of the claims and things placed forth by all here today, witnesses, and the claimant herself, just do not add up or coincide with each other.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
But can you, I mean, as far as the picture you have in your hand, it's very obvious. Could you give a brief description of maybe what it covers, the length?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It covers the lower part of the knee.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The lower part of the knee. Pretty much the whole knee, correct?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The lower part of the knee.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'd like to step over to... the statement on step two, page two. I understand you've got a redacted statement there in your hands, possibly. I've been given three redactions myself. If you look at that redaction,
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The prosecution intends to prove to those of you that a 77-year-old woman has been brutally beat, battered, sexually assaulted is the proper pronunciation or the proper usage, term usage in trials. They intend to prove to you that a 77-year-old woman was home invaded, kidnapped, hijacked, thrown downstairs at 77 years old. Thrown downstairs. Some of you are young.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Judge, I want to be clear. We haven't introduced anything, and what she has is an unredacted version of her report.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
An unredacted record. There should be no redactions on the report in the witness's hand you're referring her to. If you would go down to the lower center part of the page, I believe it'd be about eight lines up. It says, he then... Judge, I'm going to object at this point.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
If you were thrown downstairs, what would that damage do to you? Thrown downstairs in a violent manner. The prosecution intends to prove to you that a 77-year-old woman was thrown downstairs in a violent manner. All these claims are violent. They're sick. They're demented. All of these being brutal, violent, heinous claims. Those are the titles of alleged claims the judge has placed forth, as Ms.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
This is here, sir. If he wants to get into this... We didn't get into this specifically because he had objected earlier.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So we want to get into everything that this patient told this nurse. We can do that.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
May it please the court, the defense, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. At 77 years old, Tina Lohman had raised four children. She was a wife, a mother, a grandmother, and a great-grandmother. She ran a successful business with her husband, Tim. But to Tina, what was most important was her family.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
But then the rule of completeness is we're going to get into all of it. So it's up to the defendant. If he wants all this in, that's fine.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
But he's not going to pick and choose different lines in there. All right, well, it's not going to direct court on how we're going to get into things, Mr. Jones, but I would suggest we take a 10-minute recess until 2.30. We'll have the jury excused to the jury assembly room and he will address this issue and objections outside of the hearing of the jury.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Keck has also stated, of what I've just relayed to you, and more. Some of these descriptions you will hear throughout this trial. I aim to present to you, those of you here today, and I aim to present to those of you from the mouth who spoke them, these claims, and that they are not true. What's better than the person who spoke them? Turning here, Mr. Jones and Ms.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That is going to do what's called opening the door. Yes, sir. And under the rule of completeness, if you open the door to part of that, that means you open the door to all of that. And that may include everything that would otherwise be inadmissible as hearsay.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Kick, I believe they both have great intentions. I'm sure they do. However, they're here to attest to something they do not know themselves. They do not have full and 100% proof of. They're just doing their jobs. I don't expect you to hold it against them. I only expect you to be fair. I spoke at the beginning, this being very hard for me. Obviously it is. I'm the defendant here today.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Okay, and so I wanted to caution you and at least make you aware of that, but before you open the door, if you go down this line of questioning the way you were attempting to proceed, the state is going to be able to introduce that entire report. Your Honor. Okay. Yes, sir. As it stands, the state has already crossed the testimonial line. They crossed the testimonial line with Mr. Smith.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It's my life in jeopardy. It's my life on the line. Not only is it hard for me, I spoke of it being hard for everybody here. I'm sure those of you in the jury today did not want to hear the sickening claims or have to go through this. All we can do is take what we have and place weight on it from our own views. Mainly you people here today, you jurors.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Can you tell me about what time she was coming?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
right now. Yes, sir. I apologize. I did make myself clear. I didn't mean to try to introduce the unredacted statement. I wanted to assure myself and Ms. Oglesby that she did have the redacted statement so that only the open statements could be used. Was there a redacted statement or the unredacted statement? The Okay. Those are redacted ones with the black lines. All right.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Today you will be presented with some call evidence. Some of these presentations are very odd and would lead you to say, guilty, he's guilty. These are what I spoke of when I said I'd show you coincidences. Those coincidences are by far some of the biggest coincidences one will ever see in a lifetime. Most never see such. Never having the chance to. Why?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It was about 8 o'clock.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So if you go outside and question this witness beyond what is basically not been redacted, then that's going to open the door for the state. So I just wanted to caution you of that before you went down that path.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Later? Yeah.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Because there are coincidences that are extremely rare. There are things that just don't happen. A believer of coincidences is what I intend to make you throughout this trial. Ladies and gentlemen, as I said, devious crimes, they are what I myself would call the worst, the very worst. I think they're worse than murder. That's my point of view. As if they were true also.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes, sir.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
All right. And so we'll finish with the recess. If anybody needs to use the facilities, the court will be in recess, and we'll get the jury back in here promptly at 2.30 and resume with your questioning, Mr. Young. Your Honor, if I may, I object to an issue here. To what? I object to a state's attorney going up to witnesses who are on a stand and whispering for me.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When you do a thing in general, can you give me a general sense of what the first step you do as a sexual assault, how do you come up with what she said?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I wasn't whispering in what this is. I was getting a people's exhibit sticker. I'm thanking the court reporter for getting the exhibit sticker.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I apologize if I'm wrong, but it appeared to be as if he said something misaudibly. Court reporter, I'm kidding right there. All right. So, anything said in the courtroom is on the record, Mr. Young, so we're on the way. Please jump, please ride. Ms. Oglesby, did you take a medical history of Gigi Clarence?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I do not mean to offend anyone here today. However, they simply are not true. My little brother used to run to mother and say, Mom, BB hit me. BB was my sister. He used to say, BB hit me. Mom would say, well, my lovely young man, where are the marks to prove such? Mom, show me the marks. He could not show any mark. Mother would say, I can't tell where the marks are. True story.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
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And are you aware of some of her existing medical history?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I don't have that record in front of me.
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Back to the... Back to the... The bruising, or I should say general medical, general exam continued. You stated that you generally notate all bruises or issues with the person's body when these complaints are made. However, here you've only stated bruises. Three bruises and red marks.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Come to find out, my brother only had the remote taken from him. Scooby-Doo was his favorite. He would watch it end on end for hours. During them times, my brother would make them claims. We would all come to find out in the end that he had just simply walked away from the TV. Sis picked up the remote and he wanted the TV back. The tells he was telling.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
We heard a little while ago you spoke of several different bruises up and down the arm, to the lower legs, underneath the buttocks. Is there a reason for that? The reason that you did not notate all of these marks, they were fresh marks?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You will see that today, here, and throughout this trial, there are major tails told. Tails that are tall. Simply very tall tails. Then, in reference to my brother, the lack of marks gave my mother reasonable doubt. Today, I intend to prove an extreme amount of reasonable doubt. Throughout this trial will prove extreme amount of reasonable, unreasonable doubt, or excuse me, reasonable doubt.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
This was a very complex case and I documented it to the best of my ability.
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I'd like to go to page three of acts described by a patient or a story. Can I pause there for a moment? When you notate these issues, per se, these happenings, these descriptions, you have to be, what's the word for it? Exact, maybe, where you take down what a declarant said, correct? Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And on November 9th, 2021, she was looking forward to celebrating the upcoming Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays with her family. She was looking forward to spending those holidays with her husband, her children, her 14 grandchildren, and her 17 great-grandchildren. She had bought the Christmas presents. They were wrapped. They were ready to be placed under the Christmas tree.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It's a victim, yeah.
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Reasonable doubt, they say, is any idea or condition that interferes with a person.
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Victim, declarant, victim. You take down what they say. You don't normally, for lack of a better word, mess up and mark something that says it's true, right?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Grounds. All right. The jury has left it. I'm reasonable doubt on their own.
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Going in, meeting the patient, building that rapport so that they trust you to do their exam.
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What are you referring to?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Well, if you go down penetration of anus, it is the second subject under acts described by patient slash historian on page three of step two. Penetration of anus. It says by penis, finger, and object.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Jury, throughout this week, there will be all kinds of words placed forth, strong words, educated words. Words some of us may not understand. There will be displays. There will be what many call evidence. And there will be testimonies. I will show you, and if you may, prove to you how things are not as they say. Not as they seem. How most just are not possible. Also known as impossible.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Correct.
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Object, it was not marked here what the object was. And you have a section off to the right that says what.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
As I stated earlier, I intend to be logical. I will do just that. I humbly ask that you bear with me throughout this process, bear with all of us, those of the court, those of the prosecution, and everybody, recesses, intermissions, just please bear with us and be honest, as I'm sure you all can be, and be fair. Thank you. Mr. Jones, are you prepared to call your first witness? We are, Your Honor.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That means the patient did not disclose to me what the object was.
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Did you maybe ask her?
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I don't recall.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Okay. And that is the anus. That is the rear end.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
In this case, what was the first thing you did after you met with this woman? What was the first step you took before you moved in?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
If you would go to page seven of step two, and that is the genital exam. You go down to anal exam, and it says patient declined. No obvious bleeding from rectum. It's clear, right? There's no obvious leading you were the one that analyzed that and examined that? Correct. As you did also examine the labial maneuver genital exam area up in the top left box, that is the vaginal cavity, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You do so, please. People would call Tim Schmidt to the stand. Mr. Jones, when you're ready with your question. Thank you, Your Honor. Can you please tell us your name? My name is Timothy G. Schmidt.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Schmidt, how old are you?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'm 66 years old.
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Mr. Schmidt, where do you currently live?
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The outer entrance to the vaginal cavity?
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4300 North Bottom Road.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Schmidt, were you married at one point?
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Correct.
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Yes.
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And you noticed bleeding?
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Who were you married to?
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I was married to Christine Lohman.
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I did.
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So it must be a To be penetrated by penis, finger, and object in the anal area, the anal calves, them are the descriptions CL put forth, correct?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
How long were you and Ms. Lohman married?
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A little over two years.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Were you together longer than that?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes, 36 years.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So you were together for 36 years and married for two.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes. I want to talk to you a little bit about Tina. First, I'm going to hand you what's been marked as People's Exhibit 77. Do you recognize that person? Yes, that was my wife, Christine Lohman. We'd answer people's Exhibit 77 if they introduced evidence published to the jury. Mr. Ewing, any objection? No. The request is granted. You may admit people's Exhibit 77.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I was unable to assess the rectum fully for the patient.
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Just assessing her immediate injuries.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I understand. Them are the claims she placed forth, correct?
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That she was penetrated anally.
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By penis, fingers, penis, finger, and object.
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That is correct.
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There was no bleeding.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There was no obvious bleeding. I was unable to fully assess the rectum. There could have been bleeding that I was unable to assess.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And when you met with her and talked with her, not asking what she, but when you met with her and talked with her, were you able to see if she was crying and seemed to accept what her emotional state was?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The rectum is common knowledge. The rectum is... a bit smaller in diameter than vaginal cavity and quite a bit more sensitive to expansion or penetration, wouldn't you say?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Without objection, you may call it to the jury.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Did Tina have children?
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Yes.
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How many children did she have?
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I'm unable to answer that question.
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She had four children.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Did she have 14 grandkids?
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If I give you a simple scenario, if I try to penetrate this cup with this highlighter here, it's not apt to do any damage, correct? Whereas if I tried to take this small flex pin and try to penetrate this cap, it'd be more apt to do damage because it's small. It's a less expandable area. It's tighter. That'd be a correct assumption based on educational and professional opinions.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes.
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And 17 great-grandchildren?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And probably more, yeah.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Was Christina big on the holidays?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes, she was.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Liked to buy Christmas presents?
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She loved Christmas.
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Loved Christmas.
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And you guys lived together at 4300 North Bottom Road here in Quincy, is it? Yes.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I want to talk to you about the night of November 9th. That night or that morning, did you go to work?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes. Where do you work? I own American Builders Supply.
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Let me talk about that for a second. Did Tina work with you at American Builders Supply?
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Yes, she did.
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You guys ran that business together?
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I mean, the anus is generally tighter than the vagina. It's smaller.
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Yes.
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For the 38 years that you guys were together?
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She was there not quite 38 years. She was there, I think she came on in 1993. But quite a while. Quite a while. Okay. You left for work that morning. I left for work that morning. Where did you go after work?
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Again, I'm, I'm unable to answer that question. And you could determinably nail or correct.
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I was unable to fully assess the rectum due to the patient's wishes.
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I'd like to go to page four of step two. Sorry, I apologize for bouncing around like this. I'm not a natural. If you go to Page four of step two, methods used by assailants. You have categories of weapons, punch, slap, kick, grab, held down, physical restraints, strangulation, bind, and vocal threats or use of ligature.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
But Tina Loman, she wouldn't get to see the joy and the looks of anticipation on the faces of those grandchildren and great-grandchildren. She wouldn't get to hear them say, Merry Christmas, Grandma, when they showed up at her house to open those presents. She wouldn't get to experience the joy of opening the presents that her husband and children had bought her.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
What time did you leave for work?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I left work sometime after 5 o'clock, and I went to a farm at home. It was just before deer season, and I like to hunt deer, so I went over looking to see if there was anything I wanted to get before season opened up.
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Getting ready for deer hunting.
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Getting ready for deer hunting, yes. How long were you there? I'd say probably, I guess, a half hour, 40 minutes or something.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And you went home after that?
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Yes.
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Got home around 6 p.m., give or take?
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On weapons,
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Yeah, it appeared to me that she was in shock. She didn't really have too much emotions going on, I guess.
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Yes.
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It was November night, 6 p.m. When you got home around 6 p.m., and you pulled another... Project leading, leading...
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You marked yes. That's obviously because the victim, as you describe, stated it was a knife, true?
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That's correct.
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All right, this is foundational purposes, so I will overrule that objection.
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And did she say what kind of knife?
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On the paper, it's noted a meat carving knife.
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When you got home around 6 p.m., did you notice anything unusual about your house?
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Meat carving knife. Meat carving knife. Thank you.
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I noticed that the garage door was open. There were some items on the floor in the garage. The car was gone. There were some tire marks in the yard. So I'm going to hand you, or I have the bailiff hand you, some photographs as we go through your testimony. And for the record, it's going to be People's 35 through 50, inclusive, and then People's Exhibit 80.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And punch, slap, kick.
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What was that answer for that category there?
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It's marked on the exam of no.
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She was not slapped or kicked. Grabbed and held down. Did you answer that?
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It's marked on the paper as yes.
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Thank you. No physical restraints. No strangulation. And no burns. Correct. Chemical burns. We talked about chemical burns earlier on. Mr. Jones here. It's. clearly right here, burn, I would think that would follow your burns of most kinds, right? Wouldn't just be fire burns or gasoline burns of some kind.
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And I'm going to ask you to look through those. Tell me when you've had a chance to look through. Did you get a chance to go through all that?
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Yes.
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In a general sense, are those photographs of the exterior and interior of your house, your residence at 4300, 4300, that north bottom room, is that what they generally are?
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I would say that that would be the way that the patient would interpret that when I asked her the yes or no question. Thank you.
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Yes.
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And did those photographs show what you saw on November 9th, 2021, when you were in the residence and as you were going in?
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And if you go down to the category for post-assault hygiene activity, Down the second one, over to the right, ate or drank? Is that a yes or a no?
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A slap, a stack, if you will.
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Yes.
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Your Honor, we'd ask that those exhibits be introduced into evidence and leave given to publish them during the course of the rest of the questioning.
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Your Honor, any objection? Excuse me, what exhibits were there, Your Honor? 80, 81, and the ones that they own? 35 through 50, then 80 and 83. No objection, Your Honor.
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Yes, she drank.
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And that was previous to coming, obviously previous coming to the hospital, and maybe even at the hospital, true? Correct. And that states bay water, Bailey's on ice. So obviously watering Bailey's on ice.
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Yeah.
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Up on the screen is People's Exhibit 35, and actually you have a monitor there. It should be on the monitor as well. Can you tell us what this is?
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That's my home.
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True. Correct. And you also did a drug facilitated sexual assault.
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And you talked about the garage door. Is this the garage door that you were talking about?
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Then you looked at her physical injury.
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Yes.
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And you said when you got there, the garage door was open. Is that what we see here?
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Yes.
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And you said there were 10 things lying on the floor.
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DFSA. And that category holds subcategories loss of memory.
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Yes.
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And there wasn't a car in the garage. Is that correct?
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That's correct.
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Why did the fact that there wasn't a car in the garage and the garage door being open at 6 p.m. at night trouble you, concern you?
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And that was a no. Correct. Along with loss of consciousness.
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Well, my wife, Tina, drove the car, the Toyota Avalon, that would normally be parked there. And... Of course, the car was gone, and then I noticed the door was kicked open.
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nausea, and vomiting, and drug and alcohol use, correct? Correct. No. And so if you proceed on page four of step two, or excuse me, I'm sorry, page five of step two, I want to touch base on pertinent medical issues for forensic lab as it's in your documentation here.
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And we'll get to that in a minute. You said there was also some tire marks. Can you tell me where you saw those tire marks?
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Is that right? That's right. Did you also document those physical injuries? I did. Both in paper form and photographically?
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They were there by the bush there to the right of the garage.
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All right.
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We'll put up on the screen People's Exhibit 36.
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In pertinent medical history for forensic lab box, it has last menstrual period with a date and sexual contact within three days other than sexual assault. Correct. Correct. And last menstrual period, obviously unknown. 77 years old. True. True. And then you go down to the next sentence, sexual contact within three days other than sexual assault, excluding sexual assault claimed on 11-9-21.
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Are these the tire marks that you're talking about?
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Yes.
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And had those tire marks been in that part of the yard when you left that work?
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because on November 9, 2020, boy, she was kidnapped by the defendant, she was robbed by the defendant, and she was brutally and violently separated by the defendant. The defendant left Tina bruised and battered. He left her bleeding on the floor, her stand, emotionally and physically scarred, until she would die 33 days later on December 12, 2021.
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No. You told us that you also noticed that the door in the garage was broken.
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Is that right?
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Yes.
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Here on the screen, we have People's Exhibit 37. You talked about these items lying on the floor. Let's talk about those first. The items on the floor, was that unusual? Was that what the garage looked like when you left that for you?
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No.
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Tell us what was different.
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I mean, that would read what box need check mark.
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Well, the car would have been there, and those items there on the floor of the garage there would not have been there. The car would have been there.
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I'm sorry, I don't understand.
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Sexual contact within three days other than sexual assault. Obviously, you had to ask her this box, ask her this information. She stated yes or no in accordance to sexual contact within three days other than the alleged assault, right? Correct. And that was yes.
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Also in your garage, did you have some power tools?
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Yes.
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Specifically, did you have a chainsaw and a hedge trimmer?
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Correct. Did you take several photographs that reflected those injuries that you observed on November 9th, 2001? I did. I'm going to hand you what you marked as 19 through 32.
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Yes.
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Was the chainsaw and hedge trimmer in that garage when you left that morning?
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Yes.
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And as to anal contact and oral contact and condom use, them are all three no, correct? Correct. I'd like to touch base on anal contact real quick. She states no, and this is in reference to sexual contact within three days other than sexual assault. We reviewed page seven, the anal exam, and you obviously put patient inclined to obvious bleeding rectum.
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Yes.
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When you came that night at 6 p.m., was the chainsaw and the hedge trimmer in that garage? No. I'm going to show you what's been marked as People's Exhibit 15. Do you recognize that?
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No. No hammers or tools?
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That's my chainsaw.
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Chainsaw that was not in that garage?
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Yeah.
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When you got there on November 9th at 6 p.m.?
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That's correct.
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I'm going to show you what's been marked as people's exhibit 16. Do you recognize that?
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That's my hedge trimmer.
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The hedge trimmer that was in that garage when you left that morning and was gone that night? Is that right?
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I understand this is consensual here in a pertinent medical history for forensic lab. That's consensual. But that does coincide with not having any bargains on anything, correct? I'm going to object to this point. The witnesses multiple times testified that she was not able to complete a complete assessment of the anal exam based on convictions and issues. But she didn't, sir.
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Yes.
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You also told us that there was a car missing from the garage. It was Tina's car.
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Yes.
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Can you tell me what make and model that car was?
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It was a 2018 Toyota Avalon.
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What color was it?
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It was white.
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Do you know the license plate for that? If you don't, that's fine. I just don't.
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It's ABS for American Builders Supply. I don't remember the numbers on it.
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All right, so we're going to open with a little objection. Anybody answer? I'll state that again. Hurt in medical history for forensic lab. She states no on anal contact. True. Right. And that would coincide with page seven of anal exam. Patient declined. No obvious bleeding from record. If you didn't have anal sex, you'd most likely not have any marks.
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But the first three letters were ABS, and then there was a number after.
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Yes.
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Now, you told us that when you came into the garage, you noticed that a door had been kicked in. Is this the door that you're talking about?
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Yes.
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And is this People's 38? It's up on the screen now. We're looking at a view of that door.
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Yes.
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Looks like there's some damage by the lock and by the... Handle, is that fair to say?
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This is outside of the sexual assault.
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Yes.
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Also looks like there's some footprints on the door.
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Yeah. But that does coincide with them, right? No more...
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Yes.
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Were those, was that door damaged like that when you left that morning for work?
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I'm not understanding.
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Go ahead. I apologize. I may be worded wrong. I'm a little bit out of tune with this. Continuing on page five in general exam, the beginning of general exam. I'm sorry. I probably should have started this the first time. In the beginning of general exam on page five of step two, it says large area of bloody mucus was surrounding blood. The tachy? Tachy?
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No.
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Were the footprints on the door when you left that morning for work?
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No.
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People's Exhibit 39, kind of an angle view of that same door, is that right, sir?
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Yes.
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Again, was the door damaged at the deadbolt and the handle like that?
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No.
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And if we look behind the door, it looks like there's a hole in the drywall where the door's been forced open.
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The TQI?
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TQI. I apologize again. Patient states carpet cleaner was sprayed into her mouth after assault. There are no other descriptions in a general exam. And these are cranial descriptions. Cranial diagram, right?
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That was not there.
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People said it was 40 close up of that door showing how violently it was kicked open. Was it like that that morning when you left?
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No.
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It was like that when you came home at 6 p.m.?
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It's a facial diagram?
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Yes.
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And it also shows the head, too. I would say there's no other, I guess you could, in the page eight, it shows the head in general. There's no other markup, it's true.
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When you came inside...
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And you walked through that door. You walked through the garage that we just saw, and you walked through that damaged door.
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And I ask you to take a moment and look. Have you seen those photographs? I have. And are those photographs, the photographs that you took, they documented the injuries that you observed? They are.
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Did you see someone sitting on the floor?
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I saw my wife sitting on the floor in tears. Tell me about that. You said she was in tears. Was she crying? She was crying, and she told me that they raped her. Objection, Your Honor. Grouch. Testimonial. Overruled.
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On the face?
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On anywhere on the head. Anywhere on the inside of the mouth?
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Nothing that I have noted.
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Nothing. Okay. These are very serious accusations, I think you can keep, correct? Correct. And you stated you are familiar with Ruth? Correct. And you're able to tell fresh Ruth from older Ruth? Correct. Could you give reports a brief description of, say, the coloring of fresh Ruth versus the coloring of older Ruth? Who's in the filling already?
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When you heard that from your wife, who you'd been with for 38 years, did you notice anything sitting on the floor in the area around?
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Well, she was sitting on a, I guess it was a blanket or a quilt. And did you notice anything about that quilt? There was blood on it.
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Fresh bruising will be more of a dark purple, as in healing bruising will be a brownish or yellow.
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Up on the screen is People's Exhibit 41. And if we can orientate ourselves, that door that you walked in, where would it be in relationship to this photo?
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And in the pictures, if I make, if I bring the picture of the hand back up on the screen, you see right here, all around here, here, and all around the neck area, that would be considered light yellowing, brownish.
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Where that walker is, it would be to the north of that. Yes.
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So if we're facing the picture, you're basically walking in from the left side of the picture, fair to say?
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It looks like just her skin color.
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Yes.
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I mean, if you say it looks like her skin color, then it should probably appear as if. Judging on that side of the question, if you want to ask your question as a witness, she can do it, but it appears as if it's her skin color, right? Yes. And are these two colors here in this area and this area different?
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And you said that you saw your wife, Tina, sitting on the floor on a quilt. Is that the area that you saw her?
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Yes, there in front of that green chair, yes.
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Did you also notice a spray can and a knife on the floor?
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On November 9th, 2021, Tina was driving home when it was starting to get dark. She started to have car trouble. She must have been so scared, like anyone.
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Yes.
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And we can see that spray can and that knife on the floor.
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Based on the lighting of the picture.
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Yes. People's Exhibit 42, a close-up view of... A blanket, some bloodstains, and the can? Yes.
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Clearly. Or just based on the picture? Yeah.
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I'm not understanding what you're asking.
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On the lower fingers here, if I use my left hand, on the lower finger here, it seems to be a normal skin color such as white.
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I want to talk about that spray can, that 409 Target spray can. Was that on the floor when you left at 6 o'clock that morning?
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And then if you get up here above the knuckle, right here, and back here on the hand, it seems to be yellow.
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Any objection?
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No. People, 81, showing blood on the floor. That was the blood that was coming from your wife?
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I think what you're seeing is a difference in lighting in the picture.
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Yes. And what part of her body was it coming from?
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22.
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It came from underneath her lower region of her body, specifically her genital region. Yes. People's 43. Can you tell us what we're looking at here? That is a railroad spike that was converted into a knife. Did that knife belong to you and Tina? It belonged to me, yes. Was it stored on the floor like that? No, it was stored in a drawer. Was it on the floor when you left that morning? No.
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Yes. You stated lower knee for bruising, correct?
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It just says left knee.
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But you, just a few moments back, you stated.
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Oh.
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By pointing out here, this appears to be, you know, the kneecap right here. You know, the kneecap here. Then you have the lower knee. I'd say it's quite a bit higher up on the knee, the lower, Drew.
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It's the knee.
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Are you, you can tell them honestly. Are you familiar with the fact that CL had a right total hip arthroplasty?
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You told us you walked in after you saw those things that you saw.
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You heard Tina say that they raped me.
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I ate her condition. She was crying. She appeared to be emotional to you? Yes, she did. Sobbing? Yes. Did she tell you that he was worried they were going to come back? Yes, she did.
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Hip joint replacement? If you jog your memory. I don't recall.
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Do you know what a total hip arthroplasty is? I'm going to object at this point. It seems facts, not evidence. It's the worst question just to ask. I'll overrule. That's If you may answer the question, do you know what a sole hip arthroplasty is?
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Because of that, what did you do?
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I went into the bedroom and I got a handgun. What did you do with that gun? I brought the gun out and I gave it to Tina. And then I got my phone and I called 911. After you called 911, did you ask Tina what had happened to her? Yes.
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John, I object. Grounds? The death has no relevance in this case. It, uh...
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Yes.
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Can you explain that to us, please? Objection. Relevant. Sustained. Sustained. It's obviously a hip replacement, Drew. Objection. Do you have a relevance? I don't know that it was a question.
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And did she tell you what had happened to her?
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She said they raped, they raped me.
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And did she tell you how the rape started?
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So, Mr. Young, any more questions for this witness?
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She told me that she was, um, driving home on Cook's lane and she got to the, um, front or Bonanzanga and Cook's lane and the lights were not on in the car. And, um, She stopped there at the stop sign, and there was a man came and helped, went to help her to turn the lights on, and he got in the car with her and drove off with her. In the car? Yes, in the car. Did she want to go with him? No.
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Yes, sir. Did you review any other reports other than your doctor's information? Did you maybe review Dr. Finster's reports or the overall reports to come to any other decisions in your termination? No. Mr. Jones, when you're ready with your question. Thank you.
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Can you tell us your name, please, and if you could spell your last name?
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Ada Kagumba, K-A-G-U-M-B-A.
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No, they are.
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And if I can get everybody here, I just want to make sure that microphone sometimes works better the closer you get to everybody. Dr. Kagumba, do you have a particular specialty that you practice in?
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After the man got in the car and took off with her? Did Tina tell you where they went? She said they went up into the bottoms, the north bottoms.
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Yes, obstetrics and gynecology.
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And how long have you done that?
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People's Exhibit 19, string 32 will be admitted without objection.
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25 years.
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I want to talk to you specifically about November 16, 2021.
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On November 16, 2021, I apologize. On November 16, 2021, did you meet with a patient by the name of Christina? Yes. Was that the first time that you ever met with her? Yes. What was the nature of why she was coming to see you?
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And did she tell you while they were in that area, north bottoms, what the man made her do to her top?
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Yes.
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What did Tina say that the man made her do to her top?
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Thank you, Your Honor. She must have been so scared as any woman would be, driving home at night with car trouble, alone on a dark bottom road, and no one to help her. But then a power started. How do you think she felt? Was she relieved? Did she think she was going to get help? Was she scared? Was something bad about to happen? But she was 77 years old.
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She said that he made her take her top off.
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And did she tell you that he made her take her top off so that he could touch her breasts?
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Yes.
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For all the follow-ups, what was the reason? It was a follow-up after being seen in the emergency department following a sexual assault.
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After this man did that to her, did Tina say that the man forced her to perform oral sex on him?
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And you're not talking about what she said to her, but did you talk to Tina about what happened? Yes.
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Yes.
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Did Tina tell you what she thought was going to happen to her?
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She told me that she thought that they were going to kill her.
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What was her emotional affect? How did she appear to you?
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Because she was worried they were going to kill her, what did she say to them?
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She appeared to be in shock. Describe death. It's as if she was watching something that had happened to her and that she couldn't believe had happened to her. She talked like it happened to somebody. Yes.
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The first photograph I want to put on the screen is People's Exhibit 19. And looking at People's Exhibit 19, can you tell us who that's a photograph of?
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She told me that she told them that she had some jewelry up at the house and some money.
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At some point, did she also tell you that the male had made a threat to her about what would happen if her husband... She said, he said that if your husband's there, I'm going to kill you both. Tina then told you that he went to the house.
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Almost like in the third person. Yes. Is that fair to say? Yes. Did you examine her?
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Yes.
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Now, you understood that the actual act would have occurred about a week before that, is that right? Yes. When you examined her, did you notice injuries and a state of heat? Yes. Were you also given the opportunity to look at photos that were taken by Nurse Jacqueline Oglesley all on November 9, 2021?
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Yes.
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No. You're sure about that? Objection, Your Honor. I asked if you'd sort this all out or not. Let me have some redirect. Just two questions, Your Honor. All right. Let's go ahead and do that then. Sir, your wife didn't go into specific details about her sexual assault or rape with you, did she? Specific details aren't a great detail, fair to say. No.
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And when they got to the house, what did Tina say happened in the garage?
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She said that the male and there was a female there, that they got into an argument.
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And during the argument, Tina was able to get away?
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Yes. Specifically, I'm going to hand you some photographs and I'm going to ask you if these are the photographs you had a chance to observe. I've gone through them.
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Tina went into the house and she locked the door. And when she locked the door, what did she say the male did? Well, she went into the bedroom on the east side of the house and went to look for the handgun. But the handgun, I had moved from the nightstand because we had grandchildren up there. And I was afraid one of those grandchildren were going to get a hold of that gun.
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Dr. Kuguba, I want to talk to you first about the injuries to the outside of her body. When you examined her, did you notice bruising in a healing state on November 16th of 2021? Yes. And is it that bruising that you observed consistent with the photographs that you've had an opportunity to observe as far as the locations of those bruises, her hands, her knees, her buttocks?
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So I put it up high where they couldn't get to it. Couldn't find it. She couldn't find the gun. What did the male do to the door? The mail kicked the door in. And after the mail kicked the door in, what did Tina say happened next? She said she told him where the jewelry was. It was in a chest of drawers there in the bedroom.
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Christine Lohman.
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Yes. Objection. You're off the ground. I don't believe this movement here can base her decision off of other photos that somebody else has taken. She obviously did not take her own photos or do her own assessment of record. Here's a based on another physician's assessment. I am a physician. I'm overruling the objections.
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Is that how she looked when you saw her in the evening hours? It is. You talked about some injuries, and I first want to talk about bruising. Did you notice a bruising on her body? I did. Was there bruising in multiple locations?
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Up on the screen, we have People's 48, which has been introduced into evidence. Tina had jewelry in the chest of drawers. Is this where that chest of drawers was that had Tina's jewelry?
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Yes. Was that what the chest of drawers looked like when you were there at 6 o'clock that morning before you went to work? No. And when you were in the home, was there jewelry missing from the house? No.
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She is simply looking at the photographs and is testifying that the injuries she observed in healing on November 16th were consistent with the injuries that are depicted in those exhibits. And so there's no statement or hearsay that she's testifying about. She's a very photographic picture. Well, the objection is overruled in the answer to the question.
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There was no jewelry missing?
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No.
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Okay. I apologize. At 6 o'clock when you got back after you had talked to Tina, was there jewelry missing then?
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Yes. Yes, there was. After Tina...
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told this person about the jewelry, did Tina say that that person then threw her down some stairs to the basement?
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Again, the injuries that you saw with her hands, her knees, the bruising on her buttocks, the inner parts of her body, consistent with what you observed in the photographs you've had the opportunity to see. Yes. And I want to be clear, on November 16, 2021, you were not working at the behest of law enforcement, is that right?
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Yes.
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And tell me what Tina said about the basement.
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She told him that there was a safe down the basement.
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Do you, in fact, have a safe in the basement?
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Yes.
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What did Tina say happened with the safe in the basement?
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They went to the safe to the basement, and there's a board that covers the face of it, And that was moved out of the way. And Tina didn't know the combination to it. So the male went to try to open it up with the knob on the safe.
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I was not working at the behest of law enforcement.
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You were not attempting to collect any evidence? No. You were concerned with your patient's medical history and medical? Yes. You've also had a chance to look at People's Exhibit 31 and 32, showing the Vaginal area of Christina Lohman on November 9, 2021.
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Is that right? Yes. Are the injuries that you saw in People's Exhibit 31 and 32 consistent with sexual assault in your medical?
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And when he tried to open it up with the knob on the safe and he wasn't able to get into it, what did Tina say to him?
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She said that the safe was wired to the police department. And now the police are going to be coming.
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Yes. Thank you, Dr. Tugumba. That's all the questions I have. Do you have any cross-examination questions for this witness?
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People's Exhibit 49, is this your basement?
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Yes.
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And you talked about, I see a gray door here. Is that the safe?
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Yes.
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You talked about a white cover. Is that what you see here?
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Your Honor, Just a few. Possibly one or two.
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Yes.
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With the white cover on that safe when you left that morning?
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It was in front of the door on the safe, yes.
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Dr. Anna Kaguba, you did observe, obviously, a week later, what could be potential marks from a sex assault or an assault in general, right? Yes. But they're not definitely from them occurrences, true? Yes. In fact, you have no factual determination that they were, other than one's declarants or one's statement stating that they may have had these issues upon your review of them, right?
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Again, here we see a different angle of that sink door. That's the sink you're talking about, right?
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Yes.
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The knob there, the handles there.
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Yes.
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After Tina told the male that the safe was wired to the police and the police were coming, did Tina say that the man took her back upstairs?
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Yes. And when he took her back upstairs, what did she say occurred upstairs by that chair? She said he raped her.
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There was.
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You mentioned that she shared with you that there was a male and a female in the house.
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Yes.
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Did she talk to you about the female and specifically that knife that we saw?
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Yeah, she talked about the female and how the female had threatened to kill her with that knife.
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I use the word fresh bruising. Do you know what I mean when I say that? A recent bruise. A recent bruise. In your training experience, have you been able to tell the difference between bruises that are relatively recent and bruises that are days and weeks old? I am. The bruising that you observed on Christina Longman on November 9th, did the bruising appear to be recent or false? It did.
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And Mrs. Quincy, nothing bad happens in Quincy, right? In Quincy, when you have trouble, people stop, they pull over, and they help you. But instead of a random act of kindness, the defendant and his accomplice showed up. They showed up to commit an act of violence, an act of terror. of rape, every woman's worst nightmare on a dark bottom road. The defendant forced his way into Tina's car.
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The patient told me what happened, and I believed that the injuries she sustained fit with what she told me.
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They fit, but they could be from other incidents also. True. They could. Thank you. You're obviously a doctor. I respect your level of profession. The vaginal cavities. Can you tell us a little bit about healing when it comes to the vaginal cavity?
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Tina went to the emergency room that night?
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Yes.
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And maybe a week later, she went to see her OBGYN, Dr. Ada, if I remember that right.
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Yes.
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And you were with Tina pretty much every day from November 9th to when she passed away on December 12th.
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Yes.
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Those last month of her life, was she in pain?
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I'm not sure what you mean exactly.
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Yes, she was.
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She hurt from the injuries that she suffered?
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I mean, I'm human being. I don't have a vagina, obviously. But the vaginal cavity is one of the quickest healing parts of my true. I don't know that to be true. You don't know that to be true. But it does heal pretty quickly.
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Yes, she did.
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Did you see bruises to her?
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I saw some bruises and she hurt a lot on her tailbone. It's hard for her to sit. Yes. Hard for her to stand. Yes. Was she having difficulty? Yes, Your Honor. Grounds? Testimonial.
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I'm not sure what you mean pretty quickly. Mom.
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Was she having difficulty eating or drinking because of the burns in her mouth?
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Yes.
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Is it fair to say she was in pain until she died?
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The marks, when you did your exams, what stage did the marks appear to be as far as the healing state?
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Yes, she was.
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For the record, I'm having the bailiff bring out people's 50 and 51. Tell me when you have a chance to look at those. Do those photographs show that white Toyota Avalon that you, I'm sorry, 51 and 52. I apologize. People's 51 and 52. Do those show that white Toyota Avalon?
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Almost healed after a week, yes.
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And you've obviously seen sexual assault victims, correct?
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Yes.
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And if, say, I use this as an example. Say if a person was... penetrated with something the diameter of this cup. The diameter of this cup here is pretty decent size. It's pretty big. If somebody would... Judge, I apologize. I have to object. We're making a record here. He says a cup, and he says pretty big. I think the appellate court's going to want something more definite than pretty big.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Yes, it belongs to American Builders Supply.
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The company car that she drove?
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Yes.
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Your Honor, we'd ask that peoples 51 and 52 be introduced and published to the jury. Any objection?
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No, sir. Do you want people to be admitted without objection and be published?
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Except the front of the car and then the license plate, like you talked about, CVS.
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Yes. And peoples 52, the back of the car, singles. Yes.
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You can be more definite in describing for the record what cup you're using. The approximate size, Mr. Yon, will have a clear record per quart. Once again, I take this cup here. The cup's diameter is, I'd say, three, three and a half inches wide. If somebody was to drink by a cup, would that leave excessive markings? and probably most likely not be almost healed a week later.
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Going up to Bela, hand you people's 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 63, and 63. Have you had a chance to look at them?
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Yes. Let's start with people's exhibit 57. Do you recognize what's in that photograph? I'm going to ask you about it there on your photograph you've got in hand. Okay, hang on a minute. Okay, yes.
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Do you recognize that watch and bracelet?
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Yes.
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And who did that watch and bracelet belong to?
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She wasn't penetrated with a cup. She was penetrated with a penis.
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They belonged to Tina. Your Honor, we'd ask that People's Exhibit 57 be introduced into evidence and published. Any objection? Absolutely not, Your Honor. People's Exhibit 57 is admitted without objection. It may be public.
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Your penis.
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Yes, she told me.
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She told you, so that's 100% positive. Almost as if you were there, true?
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As her physician, I believed what she told me. That's my job.
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This watch and this bracelet belong to your wife, Tina?
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Yes.
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You believe it, but it's not a fact, truly.
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Have you seen her wear that watch and that bracelet on multiple occasions?
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Yes.
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True.
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It's what she told me and what I documented. Thank you. Thank you. No further questions?
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If you could look at the next picture, people 58. In that picture, there is a watch and a pen. Do you see that pen in the middle of the picture?
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No, sir. Not at all. Mr. Jones, any further direct, redirect?
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Yes.
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Do you recognize that watch and pen?
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No, thank you, Your Honor.
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Yes. God, we'd ask that people 58 be admitted into evidence and published to the jury. Any objection? Absolutely not, Your Honor. No objection. People's Exhibit 58 will be admitted and may be published to the jury. That watch? Yes.
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Had you seen Tina wear that watch?
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Yes.
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That hit. Can you tell me about that hit? How do you recognize that hit?
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If anybody has ever watched Star Trek before. I've seen Star Trek. We bought that at the Star Trek display out at the Las Vegas Hilton in Texas. I don't remember what year it was.
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The shape on that is Star Trek.
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Yes.
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It's the badge that the officers wear on them.
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Yes.
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And you and Tina were Star Trek fans?
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We were Star Trek fans.
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Can you look at the next picture, People's Exhibit 59? Do you recognize the items in that picture?
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The bruising that you saw on Christina Longman, did you take a photograph? I did. Here on Exhibit 20, we have a photograph of Ms. Longman's knee, is that correct?
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Yes.
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And did those belong to Tina as well?
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Yes, they did.
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We'd ask People's 59 to be admitted into evidence.
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Any objection? No. No, sir. The post-exhibit 59 will be admitted without objection and may be published to the jury.
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First, on the left side of this picture, there's a, I guess, brown, mystical color, what you call that, gold. Gold purse. Do you recognize that gold purse?
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Yes.
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Who did that gold purse belong to?
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It belonged to Tina.
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Had you seen her wear that purse?
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Yes.
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In the middle of the picture, we see checks, and it looks like an ABS. Is that, you recognize that check?
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Yes. That's from American Builders Supply.
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Your business?
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Yes.
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In fact, there's a P.O. Box, Quincy, Illinois. Do you recognize that P.O. Box and the Quincy, Illinois address?
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Yes.
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Your business?
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Yes.
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It's made payable to who?
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To Tina, Tina Lama.
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Your wife?
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Yes.
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And at the bottom of this, we see a voter ID card. Do you recognize the name, Christine Lohman, at the bottom of that?
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Yes.
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Is that your wife?
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Yes.
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There's an address on that voter ID card, 4300 North Bottom Road, Quincy, Illinois. Do you recognize that address?
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Yes, that's my home.
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And here there's a bag of jewelry. We showed you that bag of jewelry earlier. In preparation for trial, is that right?
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Tina thought it was about taking money and jewelry from her. She thought the defendant was going to kill her, so she told her she had more stuff back at her house. The defendant's accomplice followed them and hurled another car. But the defendant was not just satisfied with money or jewelry. The defendant wanted more from the 77-year-old great-grandmother.
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Yes.
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Did you recognize that jewelry in that bag?
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Yes.
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And who did that jewelry belong to?
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60?
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60. Hang on a minute here. Yes. Specifically, is there a rosary in the middle of that? Injection, Your Honor. Grounds? Bleeding. All right. Overruled. Again, it's foundational. Specifically, is there a necklace in the middle of that picture? There's a rosary in there.
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That's correct.
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And can you tell us what we observe in that photograph?
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Well, I know it's a rosary. I just didn't want to use that word. So, is there a rosary in that picture?
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Yes.
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Did you recognize that rosary?
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Yes.
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Who did that rosary belong to?
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It belonged to Tina's. We'd ask that people 60 be introduced into evidence in public. Any objection? Objection, Your Honor. All right. Crowns? It's my jewelry. It's my rosary. All right. I'm going to admit people's exhibit 60 over objection. Had you seen Tina with that rosary before? Yes.
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It appears to be a fresh bruise on her knee.
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People 61 is a close-up of that same rosary. You reckon again the same rosary?
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Yes. We'd ask that 61 be introduced and published. Any objection? Once again, the same objection, Your Honor. Any grounds for the objection? It's my jewelry. It's my rosary. Commit the people's exhibit 61 over objection.
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In the center part underneath?
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When you last saw Tina with that rosary, was it broken like that?
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Yes.
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No.
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I'm going to have you look at people's agubits, 62 and 63, and ask if you recognize both of those.
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People's Exhibit 21. We have photographs of Christine Malone with his left hand. Is that right? Correct. Can you tell us what we're looking at here and what you noticed in your sexual assault examination?
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62 and 63? Yes. Yes, that's Tina's purse.
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And again, the property in that purse, you recognize as belonging to Tina?
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Yes, what I can see, yes. Your Honor, we'd ask that people 62 and 63 be introduced and published to the jury. Any objection? No, Your Honor. People's Exhibits 62 and 63 are admitted without objection and may be published to the jury.
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Again, the gold or brown purse that you had seen your wife wear this time, people's 62, correct?
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Yes.
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And people's 63 saying the gold and brown purse is U.S. currency inside the purse.
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And then the jewelry, the check, and the voter ID card that you went to the summit, correct? Yes. Yes.
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Were all the things that we just saw in the photograph, were all those things missing on November 9th at 6 p.m.
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when you arrived at the house? Yes. And were they, to the best of your knowledge, all in the house when you left for work that morning? Yes. Before November 9th, 2021, have you ever heard the name Bradley on the floor?
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No.
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Have you ever seen Bradley Young before?
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No.
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Have you ever had any contact with Bradley Young?
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No.
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Have Bradley Young ever been in your house?
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No.
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No. No. No.
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No. No.
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The ever-touching thing in your house where it defiles would leave that safe. Have you ever touched that safe to your knowledge?
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No.
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The car that we saw that Mike told you to have on before November 9th, 2021, to your knowledge, had Bradley Yon ever driven that car?
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No.
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Have you ever had possession of that car?
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No.
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Would Tina give him that car?
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No.
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Would Tina give him her purse?
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Objection, Your Honor. Crowned? The witness does not know whether or not such person, Tina, CL, gave him the car or has ever been in the home or what Tina may have done outside of his presence. All right. I will overhaul the eviction as to the question asked regarding to this witness's, to the best of his knowledge, head. Bradley Young ever been to the house or know Keaton Lohman?
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It appears that she had fresh bruising on her hand.
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As the defendant drove Tina's car back toward the house as they were being followed by the accomplice, the defendant reached over, grabbing Tina, and forced the penis into her mouth. When they arrived at Tina's house, Tina was able to get away. She was able to run inside, lock the door, while the defendant and the woman with him, his accomplice, were in the garage. But the defendant wasn't done.
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The state will sustain the objection as to the vehicle and purse questions. Just the state reframe. The best of your knowledge, did your wife give the vehicle to Bradley Young?
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Talking about discoloration, bruising from the bottom of the hand to the top and then across the top of the hand. Correct. And even on the left side of the left hand. Correct. People's Exhibit 22, also a photograph that you took showing both the left and right hands of Christina Lohman. Correct.
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No.
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The best of your knowledge, did your wife give the purchase to Bradley Young?
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No.
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To the best of your knowledge, did she give her voter ID card to Bradley Long?
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No.
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To the best of your knowledge, did she give her Star Trek pin that you and she bought at Boston Vegas to Bradley Long?
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She loved that. No. Her watch, did she give that to Bradley Long to the best of your knowledge? No. Thank you, sir. That's all the questions I have. Mr. Young? Mr. Zeman? Mr. Young. Yes, sir. Mr. Smith? Yes. I apologize for having to be here today. However, that is not under my control. I understand it's a difficult time for you and your family. I'm sure you prefer not to be here.
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Jackson, Your Honor, I need to ask a question. All right. Mr. Yon, if you could ask your questions of this witness. You stated your name is Timothy Schmidt, obviously, correct? Yes. And you're in occupation. You're 60. I'm 66 years old. And your occupation is American Builders Supply, which you own. Yes.
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um and obviously your relation to cl was is was husband correct yes um you stated that you've known cl for approximately or been with bit we're we're engaged in relationship with cl for approximately 36 years true yes and been married for two yes um
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So, you own your own business, true?
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Yes. You're obviously a very smart man, educated. I will not take that from you. Your memory is pretty swell, would it not be? Pretty good.
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I can do that. You do remember the evening of November 9th? Yes. And you stated that
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You left work sometime around a bit after 5 o'clock. Yes. Could you determine maybe potentially 15-minute range of how late, the length of that? Objection, Your Honor. Asked and answered. The witness said it was around 5. Around 5. So what will the objection he may answer if he knows? Yes. Would you repeat that again?
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Could you give a close description of the approximate time within maybe five or ten minute range of the time of leaving your home? I mean, excuse me, leaving your place of business. It would have been sometime after five o'clock. Maybe 515, 520. Well, it probably wouldn't have been that late. It would have been closer to right after five o'clock. Okay, so it's 505, 510. Yes. Thank you.
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And, uh, you stated that you were at farm and home for approximately 40 minutes, correct? I was at farm and home for, for some time. I don't have the exact amount of time it was. Yes. And then you wrote, uh, you, you, upon leaving farm and home, you arrived at your house, your residence approximately 6 PM a bit after. Yes.
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Um, And you observed tire marks also in your yard. Yes. They weren't normal. No, thank you.
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And again, can you tell us what you noticed in your examination of her left and right hand and her left forearm?
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You stated what the garage looked like that morning. Mr. Smith, was the garage any different than when you arrived home? Well, the car was in the garage when I went to work. Okay, and so she was still at home when you went to work? Yes. Upon arriving home, did you pull into the garage? Yes, I believe I did.
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He wasn't going to let Tina get away. He kicked in the door to her house, breaking down the door, leaving a shoe print, and the nightmare for Tina continued. The defendant stole money and jewelry from inside Tina's house. He pushed her down the stairs and he tried to get into her basement safe. Then the defendant bent Tina over a chair in her living room. He shoved his penis into her vagina.
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And you parked probably, possibly, potentially in the parking space you normally use, which is to the right of that pile. Thank you. And... could you tell us maybe when you noticed that door, the inner door that had been kicked in, did you notice that maybe before you got out of your truck or instantly? I didn't notice it until I got up to it.
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Okay. Thank you.
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But it was open, correct? Yes. Mr. Smith, I apologize for having to go into these details again. I'm sure you did not want to rehash them. Um, You walked inside and your wife's CO was sitting on the floor, right? Yes. And as stated, that was in front of the chair? Yes. And she was sitting on the quilt, as you said? Yes. That was on the quilt? She was sitting on the quilt, yes. Okay, thank you.
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There was fresh bruising to all parts.
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Do you remember what your wife was wearing by any chance? No, I don't. She was wearing some tackle. She had some clothing on, but I don't remember exactly what she had on, no. Pants, shirt, all? I'm not sure exactly what she had on. You don't remember her having bottoms on? Objection, Your Honor. Asked and answered. The witness has said he doesn't remember.
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Again, looking at discoloration of her right hand and up to her right wrist and her left hand. Upper left forearm, fair to say.
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We've gone at it three different ways, Mr. Yon, so I'm going to sustain the objection. The witnesses testify as he does not recall what she had on. Thank you, Your Honor. Mr. Smith, I understand you're in home building, American Builders Supply. You're probably educated in home building and whatnot. Could you tell us approximately how far from the door that chair might be?
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I'm not sure exactly how far that is from the front door. Maybe 20 feet, 15 feet. It would be farther than that. And upon walking in, you state that you observed a can and a knife on the floor, correct? When I got into the house, I saw the can and the knife on the floor, yes. Could you describe, perhaps, the location of the cannon at night? They were over in the kitchen, kitchen area.
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Upon answering, could you give a recollection of the events that occurred upon your answer? Judging calls for an end. Overruling me to answer the question. Would you repeat the question? If you would, would you relate once more the turn of events as you entered the home? Would... What procedure you took, how you went about the situation? I walked into the house.
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That's correct.
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Was the bruising contained to her upper body or was there bruising on her lower body as well?
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I saw my wife sitting on the floor in tears, and she told me they raped me. And then you went on it to find a firearm for it? I went in, and I got a firearm. She told me that she was told that they would be back. Okay, and that's that firearm you... Where did you retrieve that firearm from? I got it from the bedroom. That would have been... Closet in the bedroom. The south bedroom, correct?
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One night in 2021, Christine's life was changed in the most horrific way. A man named Bradley Yon and a female accomplice terrorized her first in her car, then in her home. Yon's accomplice, 33-year-old Karen Blackledge, pled guilty to home invasion and criminal sexual assault and received two 20-year sentences. She will have to serve 85% of that time.
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It would be a bedroom on the east side of the house. Where the chest of drawers was. Yes, sir. And then you proceed back to your wife and you gave her the firearm for protection, correct? Yes. Then you... I believe in your statement, you stated that you then called the police. Law enforcement. I called 911, yes. Do you remember right about what time that may have been?
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There was bruising on her lower body as well.
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How long it was after you arrived? It wasn't very long. Could you give a approximate minute length? It was only a few minutes. So you... You obviously talked to her for a small amount of time, retrieved the firearm, walked to her, and then you went out to retrieve your phone from your truck, correct? Yes. She needed an ambulance or she needed medical attention. Okay.
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Exhibit 23 shows both the left and right knee of Christina Lohman. We saw a close-up of the right knee already. Here is the left leg. Can you tell us what you noticed in your training experience as a sexual assault nurse examiner?
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In your statement, you stated that your wife was drinking some type of liquid when you arrived home. I'm going to object at this point with this statement. Witness didn't testify to that, so I'm not sure what statement he's referring to. Sustained. Mr. Schmidt, you made a statement, correct? A video statement? What's that? You made a video recorded statement, correct?
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He shoved his penis into her mouth.
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With officers of Adams County Sheriff's Department? Objection, Your Honor. The improper impeachment has not been confronted with that statement. Sustained. And you stated you don't remember the clothing you were wearing? Objection, asked and answered. Sustained. At the time calling 911, could you tell us approximately how long it was before officers arrived? To your best estimated guess.
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I don't know exactly. It wasn't very long. They responded pretty quickly. And you made that call at 6.09 p.m.? That's true? I don't remember exactly what time it was. You stated that C.L., your wife, said that she had been robbed. sexually assaulted and hijacked.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Could you potentially go into a bit more detail as to what she stated to you upon the minutes of being there with the police or before you made the time? She told me she had been raped. And I went and got the phone, and I went out in the garage, and I called the police department. I called 911. Okay. So you made that call from the garage, or did you? I made it from outside the house.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And then when the defendant was finished using music, his twisted purposes disappeared. he sprayed her mouth and body with carpet cleaner. While the defendant was doing all of these things, robbing her, assaulting her, his accomplice, the woman that was with him, was holding a knife and threatening Tina's life. After the defendant finished robbing Tina of her dignity, he fled.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I went out to see if anybody else was coming back, and I called police. I called 911. Out in your garage? Out in the garage. Mr. Smith, is it possible that that be false information? Objection, Your Honor. Claimed. Your Honor, there is a 911 call that shows... Objection, Your Honor. The objection's been sustained. You'll need to ask your questions to this witness.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Then it was a very brief conversation. Correct. Objection, Your Honor. Which conversation? The conversation with your wife. Hold on. When there's an objection, I'll need to address either sustained or overruled. And Mr. Young, I'm going to sustain the objection and ask you to ask a more specific question. Are you aware that your wife, CL, stated that you were at home? Objection, Your Honor.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There was bruising to the Knee as well.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Improper appeasement. And that will be sustained. The floor plan of your home where CL was located, sitting on that floor... And it pictures that it appeared to be a very slim path in between the chair and the trash can over the wall. If you may, I assume that path was clear for you to walk through in order to retrieve that gun? Isn't that better? Eastern better? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Not enough for me to get through. Nothing else before there, right? Well, the... The cleaner was on the floor, but it wasn't right there in the hallway where I walked through. No. All right. So the hallway was clear of debris, trash, clothing, or anything else that may have obstructed your path to this room to get to this gun besides the fan and cleaner, correct?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Both. Both of them.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And again, that bruising appeared in your transcripts to be relatively... Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I walked straight into the east bedroom and retrieved the firearm. Your Honor, would you direct the witness to ask you the question, please? If you could rephrase the question, maybe he's not understanding what you're asking. That walkway that you had to walk through, which is in between the chair and the trash can, they're in the pictures that we observed. I believe exhibit 45 and 42.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's a very similar pathway, Mr. Smith. I'm assuming the walkway was clear of grease, trash, clothing, or anything else that may have obstructed your path to this room to get to this guy, Greg, besides the key. I believe there were some other items there on the floor, but it did not obstruct me from going in there. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Was there also...
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Upon calling 911, you said you were in the garage when you called 911. Did you remain in the garage until police arrived, waiting for them? No, I went back into the house. And could you tell us how you proceeded from that point on? I checked on my wife to see if she was okay, and I looked out the windows to see if anyone was coming.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
bruising and injuries to the patient's, to Christina Lohman's buttock. There was. The next slide is going to be a black slide because of the nature of the photograph. It's Fecal Exhibit 24, if we ever go out to look. Do you feel people's Exhibit 24 is correct? Correct. It's a photograph of Christina Lohman's buttocks and upper part of her thigh, should we say? Is that right? Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So you were potentially back, or I'll reword that, so you weren't back as much through the windows, correct? Yes. Do you have any idea what windows in front of your home that would allow officers coming? There's a set of windows there in the kitchen. in front of the sink that you can look out to the north of the house. A single set or a double? It's two windows.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Are you sure you did not stand there holding her hand? Objection, Your Honor. You're staying. Mr. Smith, can you describe the item here that I can call specifically having the same age of age here? Objection, Your Honor. Valid. A sustained histrionic, you can direct your question to a specific chair and narrow it down for him so he can give you the answer you're looking for.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There is a green chair, a plant chair, that your wife, C.O., wants to have a big secret in front of when you mentioned Bob Grevin. Yes. And do you have any of all some of the items at that time that were in the vicinity of that chair as far as furniture, maybe from their places?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Well, there would have been an ottoman that would have been off to the side, and there was a table between that chair and another chair. Would it be safe to say that you were right in front of that table? Or was you right in front of the table at the time? It was moved out of the way, but I don't remember exactly where it was at.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
He fled with Tina's purse. He fled with her jewelry. He took her money. He fled with Tina's car. He evened Tina's rosary. Then he went across the river to Hannibal and he played video poker. When Tina's attempt arrived home, he found Tina on the floor crying and bleeding, crying that she'd been raped and her body. Next to Tina was the knife that her life had been threatened with.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You said you were back and forth to your wife when you found your wife to the window. When you were at your wife's side, what did you do to the best of your knowledge or memory? I gave her a hug. You gave her a hug. Mr. Smith, you stated that right next to the chair in the center of the floor was a can of beer. In the exhibit, number 42, it appeared to be
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
somewhat right there dead center of the aisle going towards the eastern bedroom. When you walked back and forth there, you did not disturb that game by any chance? No, not, not, no. You should, uh, there's a possibility that you can go. So we can look pretty calm before calling 911 or before it peaks around. Is that the situation? No. It's not. I called 911. So you didn't Objection, Your Honor.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Asked and answered. Sustained. Mr. Stenner, are you the only person identified on the 9-1-1 call? Objection, Your Honor. Speculation and relevant. Mr. Stenner, I don't know how the witness would know who was identified on the 9-1-1 call. Your Honor, you do the 9-1-1 call. And again, the objection sustained. I don't know how he would know if he's the only one identified on the 911 call.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And during the time of 911 call in the garage, he was assessed unsolicited by yourself, right? There was no one else there. No, it was me. Thank you. This would kind of, if I may, pledge criminal acts, something you'll never forget, right? No, I will never forget it. And you're assured by your dead wonder that you have to send your honor to the state.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Schmidt, I'm confused as to the answers I'm asking about this 911 call.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Could I introduce the 911 call, please? Is he asking me, Your Honor? Is there any objection? Well, Your Honor, there's no foundation for the 911 call. This witness has not been... So, yes, we object to the 911 call being played without the proper foundation by this defendant. So, Mr. Young, if you'll lay the foundation for introduction of the 911 call with this witness.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Sorry, there's a court report you've got to see, sir. And that photograph shows a bruising and abrasions to other legs of the body. Is that fair to say? That's correct. Governor, if I could have the bailouts approach the jury based on the nature of that photograph and pass that to the jury.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Your Honor, the foundation is Mr. Snake has stated that he made a 911 call. He's obviously called... I believe that foundation is enough. Finding that is not enough foundation. When police arrived, your wife, she had something on top. I'm not sure. I don't think she, she, she has something on top, but nothing on her bottom.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And, uh, she did not move from that location, right? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So essentially she was bare of clothing. Yes. Do you recall how it is that she was removed from that floor and that she got up from the floor? No. You do not recall the deputies having to? Objection, Your Honor. The witness has already testified. He doesn't know how she got up off the floor. It's a cross-examination, so overall, you may ask the question.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Do you, Mr. Smith, recall the deputies having to assist her in getting help to the floor?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Or is it a possibility she just remained there? She was on the floor for a while.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'm not sure. I don't know how she got up. To your recollection, could you tell us the secret events after the arrival of law enforcement? Enforcement. I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question. To your best recollection and remembrance, could you tell us the sequence of events that happened upon the first arrival of Walker? I don't remember all the details with it, no.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
They did go over and deceive my wife. And you were present, correct? I was there, yes. Did you tell us where you were when you had a stitcher down? I don't remember. Let me see if I can get what I've got. I assume they did a quick search of your home to make sure there was no potential threat to the right door. Is he secure, though? No, I don't remember.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes. Publish that directly through juror observation fashion photo.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Smith, do you know any name of the first responder? No. And are you associated or familiar with any of these officers that were at your home this night? No. You know none of them? No. You're not aware of or familiar with Mr. Wagner, Sheriff Wagner, or Chief Deputy Sam Smith, or Mr. Goodwin? No. Do you remember speaking to an officer in his lodge about an important issue concerning this matter?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So you're on People's Existence 25, the lower part of Christina Lowen's thighs, backside of her thighs.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Your Honor, I have to object to that. I will sustain the objection. You're asking this witness to decide what you might be thinking was an important matter. He may not agree with that. So if you want to rephrase your question. I apologize. I just don't want to leave her. Well, in cross-examination, that's exactly what you're supposed to do, Mr. Yon, but go ahead.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Tina gave her, Tim, her husband, gave Tina, because Tina was so terrified the defendant and his accomplice were going to come back. And he called 911. Tim asked Tina to tell him what happened. And she relived that nightmare again. As she told him how she had been violated, how she had been robbed, how she had been left bloody and bruised on that floor.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Do you remember speaking to a deputy, specifically a female deputy, About your cards, your bank accounts, your monetary value in your garage. No. And you remained at your home until about what time? The best you remember? I don't remember. Or were you there the rest of the night? No, I went to the hospital. My wife went to the hospital and I went there after that.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
My wife went to the hospital, and I drove there on my own. Thank you. And your wife went to the hospital to collect evidence. Objection, Your Honor. Speculation. Sustained. Is it true that your wife initially did not want to go to the hospital? I don't remember what she said. I don't know. There was a 911 call. There was a 911 call.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
If I may, I'd like to object real quick. For the previous time, I had copies of 24 and 26. I spoke to Ms. Keck earlier, telling her that the numbers were changed on them. And she took the copies I had, and I have not been given copies back since to observe.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Thank you.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So there were no medical emergency technicians ready? No. Thank you. You did not recall her diagnostic medical service? No. However, at a later time, you did go to the hospital with your wife. Yes, you did. Just a few. I went to the hospital, yes. You went to the hospital by yourself or? I went by myself. You did not take her? I did not take her, no. I think.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Smith, these claims placed forth, how would you view them? Injection, Your Honor, relevant, distinct. You stated that your wife claims she was raped, right? Yes, she said she was raped. And that was the only thing she told you at the time, correct? Yes. You've testified to jewelry being your lives to several other issues. Mr. Schmidt, is that reasonable to do it?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Did she feel ashamed about what had happened to her? Yes. And she didn't want to go to the hospital because she was ashamed of what had happened. Is that fair to say? I object, Your Honor. I withdraw the question, Your Honor. The question is withdrawn. The jury should disregard any further recross based upon the questions just asked. Mr. Young? No, Your Honor. Thank you, Mr. Jones. No step down.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Is it in your reasonable belief? Is it logical of any human being to deny services such as medical services and to not have them come to the scene? Objection, Your Honor. Speculation irrelevant. Objection sustained. Can you rephrase the question? No, I don't want to rephrase the question. Obviously not.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Did your wife, in reference to the knife, did your wife maybe explain to you what time male or female were able to gain access to this knife? No. Earlier, you stated that she told you, related to you that she was able to run into the house and the male and the female were in an argument. She was able to run into the house and make it to the bedroom and to defend it.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
myself, lest you have come in and demanded your rent and money? She said she ran into the bedroom and, yeah, she said that the defendant, the man that came into the house, wanted to know where the jewelry was at. You also stated that she related to you that she told the suspect Potentially defended that she had money at home, right? That she would give them? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So she sent copies of these photographs, and she sent these, mentioned these photographs, and she said she sees them. And first step, we took those to him at one point and showed us these photographs. And there's no one searching for these. She knows it's photographs, and she sees them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And she didn't reference jewelry at the time? She said she had jewelry and she had money at the house. Mr. Smith, briefly, briefly one more time. Could you relay the actions that your wife stated that happened to her? Objection. Asked and answered. We've covered this, I think, three times now. Sustained the objection. Asked and answered.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
For the weeks after her assault, Tina was in pain, both emotional pain and physical pain. She never had the opportunity to recover because on December 12, 2021, Tina's heart broke. Tina won't be able to take that witness in. She won't be able to tell you what the defendant and the accomplice did to her.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You've also stated previously early on in your testimony that your wife relayed to you that she was thrown downstairs, correct? Yes. Moments ago, you just said she was only raped. No. I will strike the comment by Mr. Young and will instruct the jury to disregard such.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Young will be cautioned to ask the questions of the witness and not to attempt to testify or make argument until the appropriate time. Your wife stated that in the collar, the male reached over and grabbed her, I believe, was finally her. And then she placed his penis in her mouth.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Correct? No. It's not.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So she never told you that her mouth placed his penis in her mouth anywhere in Clareport? I'm sorry, would you start over with that again? In your earlier testimony, you stated that your wife relayed to you that the metal in the car before arriving to the home reached over and was touching her, finally her, and then proceeded to put his penis in her mouth. Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And was that, are you aware of where that may have been? Were they stopped? Were they still driving? I don't know. And that mental suspect stated, if your husband's there, I'm going to kill you both. Correct? Yes, she said that. Mr. Schmidt, I don't know. There's not only one firearm in your home, right? In fact, there's several, right? There is more than one firearm in my house, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And when the grandkids are not around, as you said, you try to keep them out of reach of grandkids. These firearms are randomly placed in the home, right? I never said that. Thank you. And Tina did not, excuse me, I apologize, CL did not tell you where she was at at the approximate time when Neil came through the door? She did not tell me exactly what time that was, no.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Your Honor, that's irrelevant right at this moment. I'm entitled to have that here at the moment. I've had them for the last year until just about an hour and a half ago. I'd like to view them too. I'd like to view them, but I need to. Well, Mr. Young, I'm going to overrule your objection.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
She did not give you an approximate location as to where she was in the house? Well, she ran into the bedroom. Now, after she locked the door, now exactly how long that took... And I don't know. It couldn't have taken very long to run from the door into the bedroom. And your wife is, she's a 77-year-old woman, I understand. Wow. And she had any surgical operations such as hip replacements?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes, she had a hip replacement. And is she apt to run often? Well, no, she didn't run, but this fine. I observed a walker at your home. You stated there's a walker, an assistant device for people who tend to have issues walking. At times, she did use a walker, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Upon being thrown down the stairs in a violent fit, a violent rage, as that does not happen, friendly like, or as a play of sports, upon being thrown down the stairs, did she state any further events in reference to proceeding further after that? Would you repeat that?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
After being thrown down the stairs, she did not describe to you what happened after that, besides the fact that they went safe, correct?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Instead, her husband will tell you what Tina told him that night when he found her crying and bleeding on their living room floor. about what happened on November 9th, 2021, but you will get to see the photographs that were taken at Blessing Hospital by the nurse, Jacqueline Oglesby. The photographs of Tina's mouth, where the defendant had sprayed her with carpet cleaner.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And, uh, Mr. Schmidt, I'd like to ask you about that safe. That safe is obviously, it's been stalled, built into the wall, and it is usually covered at probably all times, correct? Yes. And is there anyone else that would be able to touch that safe, that safe handle or anything about that safe? Maybe the partition or the board that was covering.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Does anyone else ever operate with that safe or go into it? I would be the only one. You'd be the only one. So grandkids aren't apt. I'm sure they've seen it, but grandkids aren't apt. regularly touch and pull the board all the time, that giant, right? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You stated earlier, you testified that your wife related to you something about locking you safe permanently and that the police are on their way now because they have a notification of that safe if it's the wrong combination, correct? Correct. Would you repeat that?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You stated earlier in your testimony that your wife related to you that she told the suspect or suspects that they had locked the safe because it was wired to the police station forever. She told me she told the suspect that the safe was wired to the police department. Yes. And then they proceeded to stare. That's what she said, yes.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You've already not objected to the introduction of those exhibits here for purposes of trial, and you can observe what's on the screen with Mr. Jones and the witness as they testify. And if you need those exhibits, they will be available for you during cross-examination to use yourself. The lesson from the objection is overruled.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And I'm sure you've had other conversations in the time after the alleged offense. On top of the initial conversation with her at that time, she did not say anything further as to any other events that happened upon going upstairs. Objection, Your Honor. The witness has already testified that she told him they went upstairs and bent her over her chair and raped her again.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's what the witness testified to. So now the defendant here is trying to confuse the witness by misinterpreting his previous testimony. I'll sustain the objection if you could rephrase or re-ask the question. Perfectly honest. Mr. Young, I thought you were asking this witness about any other conversation he had had with the victim about her description of what happened.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So if you could pinpoint the witness with your question as to the answer you're looking for, then hopefully you'll get the answer you're looking for. And she's, excuse me, I'll skip past that question and continue on. She stated that they proceeded upstairs, right? Yes. And the mail fits her open. The chair, she raped my wife. She told me she was raped.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Smith, earlier you stated that she related to you that she put that over the chair. I don't remember saying that. Your wife, I'd like to ask you about her being, about her personal mentality. You were on Zoom. You were around her daily. If I make the snub sheet, the CL...
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
was a sharp person, meaning not only smart, but intelligent, crafty, ingenious, of a stable mind, consistent in her manner of everyday life. Would you agree that my assumption is accurate? Jackson wrote it relevant and sustained as being irrelevant as well as a compound question. Your wife did not suffer from any dementia at all, Blackie. No. So she would have remembered things pretty well.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Objection. I would call for speculation on the part of Miss Whitman. I don't know if he can answer the best of his knowledge. Would you repeat that? So her memory was actually pretty good, right? It was pretty good. Yeah. Maybe. Objection. Again, we're talking about what was eight years ago. Sustaining the objection.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Smith, I'd like to ask you a question or two about your Toyota Avalon, the white one with the license plate of ABS, I believe 1706. Could you tell me what year that was? It's the best year of remembrance. Roundabout. I believe it was a 2018. And that automobile did not have self-propelled autopilot driving installed in its model, did it? No. Meaning it did not drive itself, obviously.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The photographs of Tina's vagina, where the defendant had shoved his penis inside of her. The photographs of Tina's body, where she is showing that she had been left bruised and beaten. Tina won't be able to come here and tell you about the pain. She won't be able to tell you about the humiliation she suffered. But he will get to answer Ada Kagumba, Tina's doctor.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Thank you. Is it true that your wife stated that the female in this criminal equation was the worst of the two? Yes. Mr. Smith, I'd like to ask your opinion. Based on your knowledge and testimony, based on life, based on what your wife has related to you or had related to you, First, I apologize, I'll backtrack.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And page exhibit 25, bruising on both the the upper backside of Christina Lohman's thighs on both the right and left side, I'm afraid to say. Correct. And is the bruising contained on the interior of both the right and left thigh?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Your wife stated the female was verbally violent and threatened her many times, correct? She said the, yes, she did. And that was all other than rummaging through your house, ransacking you, and stealing everything, correct? Yes, she said the female did, yes. And I'll reiterate for you, I'm going to stay on. Do I have to stay in the middle of the river downstairs to meet her? That's right.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Correct. Yes. Back to my original question. Based on life and being a human being and the relevance of what your wife relayed to you, in your eyes, what do you see of worse? The male or the female? I'm checking your honor. Relevant speculation. Improper opinion. You are aware that the female was simply supposed to be only verbally wound, Rick? The female threatened her with a knife.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Verbal threats. Verbal threats, yes. Thank you. Did your wife ever state anything about the female touching her? I don't remember for sure what she all said. Generally... I'm the owner. Yes. No, we used, we each used our own vehicles. or the two different vehicles that were owned by the company. Is it possible that at times C.L. would not even go to work? Objection, Your Honor. Relevance?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
On sustained. I recently stated C.L. left before you that day. I don't know if it reminds you that before you went to farming home. Objection, Your Honor. He never said that C.L. was at work with him that day. I would sustain. I don't recall that being testified to. Mr. Smith, did your wife Drink alcohol. Objection, Your Honor. Relevance? I'll sustain.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I don't find the relevance in the question, Your Honor. Mr. Schmidt, did your wife have any markings on her body that you could observe upon entering the home that were not mostly there? Are you aware of that? I don't remember if she had any other markings on her or not. You gave us our 36 years, obviously, though. Did she have any temporary confidence in her body?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
In other words, it's on the insides of both of them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Such as maybe skin depredation or birthmarks? No. None? None? Any lower body? Objection, Your Honor. All the rules. Let me ask you a question. I'll restate that. Can you hold the question? I'm sorry. The question was, did she have any birthmarks or pigmentation on her lower body?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And she'll tell you about the injuries she observed on Tina the week after the defendant had arrested her. Tina won't be able to come here. She won't be able to look the defendant in the eye and say, you did this to me. But on that cold, dark day, November 9th, one of the reasons Tina was so terrified is she had no idea who the person was that attacked her. She didn't know his name.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Let's let the witness answer the question before we move on, Mr. Young. No. Is Omega and Mrs. Smith on us?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Here on equals 26, it's going to be a blank screen off the screen again.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Is there any recent medical attention outside of 11-9 or 21-9? There are no hospital visits. I mean, she went to the doctor. I'm not sure. Yes, she went to the doctor. Who's Schmidt? I don't want to go too much further. I don't know. I feel like I've already violated enough of this question. I hate to have you here as it is. Your Honor, if we could just get to a question, please.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It's a photograph of the Christian alumnus showing abrasions and bruising and discoloration.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Young, if you would ask your next question of this witness, then we'll be here even less. Knowing your wife for 36 years, being your wife for two years, do you see any reason that she would laugh and giggle about things such as this? Objection, Your Honor. There's no evidence of that, and it would be speculation on the part of this witness. Sustained.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Smiley, I guess, about the cell phone service. I'm on the bus. Objection, Your Honor. Relevance? Maybe we'll get to something relevant. Go ahead.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Go ahead.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes, I overrode the objection. That means you can ask the question. How is the cell phone service up there on the blocks for your house located? Objection. Again, a little bit of an objection. Maybe we'll get to something relevant, but go ahead with the line of questioning, Mr. Young. I'll proceed on your own.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Again, based on the sensitive nature of that, we'd ask the bailiff to approach and show that to the jurors. All right. We'll proceed in the fashion as suggested. And so goes the element of the fact. Welcome to People's Exhibit 19.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Based on your remembrance, do you remember your wife being appointed to go to the hospital while you were there? Yes, they told her she had to go to the hospital. And who might that be that told her they had to go to the hospital? I don't remember. It would have been law enforcement, correct? Law enforcement yourself would be the only ones there, true? Her daughters were there also.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So it could have been law enforcement and daughters. And the daughter. And whether to see your answer or not, I'd like to answer the only question that has been asked. Do you remember approximately how many daughters did arrive to the scene? No, I don't. And do you know how they got information? I called the younger daughter, Ilsa.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Svidal, you said you went to the hospital by yourself in your own vehicle. Do you remember when you took your wife to the hospital? She went with her daughter. And that would have been Ilsa's or Heidi's? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And that was on your Reverend Nunn that same night? Yes. Before you came to the hospital, could you shed a bit of light on what your wife did before leaving?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
What precautions did she do? Maybe she dressed? How long it was, to the best of your knowledge. Yeah, she put some clothes on. She didn't shower? No. She, uh, I would say she held tops on and she didn't change clothing? I don't know. Michigan, are you, uh, in regards to the sexual assault, are you aware of whether there were any objections to the condom or anything? Did she explain it to you? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
She didn't know where he went, but she did know. She knew he had a red beard, and she knew he had her purse, her jewelry. The day after, November 9, 2021, on November 10, 2021, the day after she had been brutally and violently robbed and sexually assaulted, the U.S. Marshals found the defendant in Springfield, Missouri.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And last question, she walked down the road.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
She walked down the road. Yeah. She walked down the road.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When you were speaking with Christine Lomath and talking with her, did you notice anything about her mouth, specifically if there was blood in her mouth?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There was.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And did you take photographs of the interior of her mouth as well? I did. When you looked in her mouth, did you discover that there were significant injuries to the inside?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
In your training as a nurse and the years that you've been a nurse, have you seen chemical burns before? I have. The burns in Ms. Lohman's mouth, did it appear to be chemical burns to you? It did. People's Exhibit 27, it's just a photograph of the insides of Christina Lohman's mouth on November 9th, 2021, when you performed a sexual assault examination.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When they found the defendant in Springfield, I'm sorry, Springfield, Illinois. When they found the defendant in Springfield, the defendant had Tina's purse over his shoulder. Inside that purse were Tina's jewelry, Tina's voter ID card. On the defendant's wrist was Tina's watch. And inside the defendant's pocket was Tina's rosary.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It is. The black and red areas, is that blood?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Again, People's 28, is that a different view of Christina Lowman's, the interior of her mouth?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
On the defendant's feet were a pair of shoes that exactly matched the shoe print left at the scene at Tina's house. And just down the street from where the defendant was found was Tina's car covered in the defendant's fingerprints. And despite efforts to destroy any DNA by spraying carpet cleaner on Tina, there was male DNA found by the Illinois State Police.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It is.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Again, we're able to better visualize the clotting on her mouth and then the fresh blood at the back of her throat. Is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Again, the interior of Christina Lowman's mouth on November 9th, 2021, showing blood.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The clotting and the abrasions and the turns on the inside of her mouth. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Male DNA was found on the Depends, the adult diaper that Tina had been wearing that night of November 9, 2021. DNA that was on Tina's Depends was determined to be 310 times more likely to be the defendant's DNA. The can of carpet cleaner that the defendant had used to spray Tina's mouth and body that was found at the house, that was tested for fingerprints.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That is correct. Here, do we see the roof of her mouth, Christina Lemons? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The following is the trial of Bradley Yon, who decided to represent himself and in doing so, made a mockery of the court system. Jan was charged with two counts of home invasion, aggravated kidnapping, aggravated vehicle hijacking, aggravated criminal sexual assault, and residential burglary. A month after the attack, Christine lost her life.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And again, the black clotting and the fresh abrasion.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And the fresh. Ms. Oglesby, did you also examine Christina Lemons' vagina?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And in examining her vagina, did you know there's injuries to her vagina? I did. In fact, was there a three linear tears approximately one centimeter long?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And the defendant's fingerprint was found on that can of carpet cleaner. What the defendant did was on November 9, 2021 was horrific. It was violent. It was a nightmare. It was a lone woman. No 77-year-old grandmother should ever have to experience what the defendant did to Tina Lohman on November 9, 2021. It was sick. It was perverted. What he did to Tina Lohman was, it's called home invasion.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Is that correct? Yeah, that sounds correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And also a one by one or one centimeter by one centimeter abrasion and a three centimeter by two centimeter abrasion. Bleeding.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Did you also attempt to perform a cervix exam on this woman?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Were you able to complete that?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I was not.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Is that because it was too painful for her?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That is correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When you were able to perform what you were able to perform on that cervix exam, did you notice stringy clots in the vaginal wall?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It's called aggravated kidnapping. Aggravated vehicular hijacking. It's called residential. And it's called aggravated criminal. And at the end of this case, called to hold the defendant for what he did to Tina Lohman on November 9th, 2021. Thank you, Your Honor.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Can you tell me what that means, stringy clots in the vaginal?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When I was able to open up the speculum as much as I could, there was clotted blood from some sort of injury to the vagina. Yeah.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And Peoples 31 and 32, those are photographs of the examination of Christina Lemon's vagina during the sexual assault examination. Yes. And those show the abrasions and the tears that you three are seeing. Correct. Based on the nature of 31 and 32, we're not going to publish them on the Screaming Dice, but we will publish the jury and publish them in that manner.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Yon, care to make any opening statements? Yes, sir. Uh, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what you just heard were theatrics. Theatrics. Something one puts forth in order to obtain and persuade you to obtain a conviction in a trial. I will concede that some things Ms. Keck here stated do in fact ring true. However, they're not as she stated them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Welcome to Crimatorium. I'm your host, Madeline. Christine Lohmann-Schmidt was a 77-year-old wife, mother, grandmother, and great-grandmother. She was poised and strong, loved Christmas, wine, and Star Trek, but most of all, she loved her family. Christine traveled the world, studied at the Sarbonne in Paris, and went to the London School of Economics.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Thank you. Mr. Jones, when you're ready with your questions. Thank you, Your Honor. Can you tell me your name, please?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
If the exhibits 31 and 32 will be published to the jury as suggested. Ms.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There are many discrepancies in this case that have yet to be finalized. Ladies and gentlemen, the jury today, this is going to be very hard for all of us. We have people here in the stands. It's going to be extremely hard for them. It's going to be extremely hard for you. It's extremely hard for myself. I'm the one here on these claims. However, these claims are not quite true.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Oblesby, when you accepted that examination from Christy Allen, was she wearing an adult gift that time? She was. When you, did you move that thing?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And did you place it into evidence?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When you observed that defense, did you notice any blood on that as well?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And I will show you that today. I apologize for having you awesome people here today. Yes, it's a duty of citizenship to have to serve on a jury every so often. Not many smiles today. However, I did see some yesterday. I appreciate them smiles. That has brought a light to my soul as I've been stuck here in this county jail, tormented for the last 19 months. I ask that you forgive my appearance.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes, there was a lot of blood on the defense.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You're familiar with the term sexual assault, yeah?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Did you perform a sexual assault in this case?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
We're going to hand you what's been marked as people's exhibit number one.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Do you recognize that? I do. And is that the sexual assault kit that you collected on November 9th, 2021 from Christina? It is. Count it again. Number one, be admitted again. Any objection? No, Your Honor. As long as we can introduce 0506, the defense copy, which is also a secondary patient consent form. It's also the top of that box, which is attached to that. It's a completely different one.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Jacqueline Oglesby.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
This is not normally me. I normally have hair. I did not expect you to feel sorry for me by any means. I also understand you'd much rather be enjoying your summer at home rather than being in this courtroom. However, the powers that compel have brought you here today. I once heard that trials are based on persuasion. Who has the best persuasion in their words?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Can you get your little duck closer to that?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Sirs, I'm going to object at this point. The court asked us if there was an objection to the introduction, not for commentary about other pieces of evidence.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And so, Mr. Young, there's no objection to the admission of people's exhibit number one. You will have a chance to cross-examine and attempt to introduce the exhibits you believe are relevant. And so we'll take that up when it's your turn. Mr. Jones. Thank you, Your Honor.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Who can be persuaded by the persuadee? Words like persuasion, I believe they're negative myself. They're kind of like manipulation. Very negative. It's, it's,
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Jacqueline Oglesby?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There we go. All right. Everybody here, okay. Ms. Oglesby, can you tell me what you do?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
negative in my insight to persuade somebody especially when you want to persuade somebody as to the charges here today and not have the proof needed to to present those theatrics and not have the proof needed to present those theatrics to persuade one's life away As Ms. Keck stated, if they were to truly happen, they're sick, they're demented, they're horrendous, horrid.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I think I just want to make sure that adults, the pants, that just something where she was wearing that when she came into the emergency room when you were first there. Correct. Thank you. That's all the questions I have. All right. Any cross-examination, Mr. Young? Yes, Your Honor. Yes, most definitely. I'll just be cutting for company. In reference to, I'll start out with a sex assault kid.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
In reference to the sex assault kid, you do a number of procedures in that sex assault kid, right? That's correct. There's a number of options or steps you should take in order to fulfill a complete sex assault, true?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Persuasion, I see that in the same sense as to persuade something that is not true is also sick. These are demented crimes. Ladies and gents, I'm more in agreeance with the word logical. To be logical seems to be more so valuable than to persuade some. Also, the meaning of logical, to expect because of what has gone before, what has happened in prior arrangements, prior times.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I do it based on the patient's needs and wants.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
In this case, you did several different pages. Questionnaires, notations, bruises, among the statements, apps described by patient historian, methods used by assailants or assailants, post-assault hygiene activity, patient medical history for forensic lab among general exam.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Based on or using logic, the definition of logic, correct reasoning, or the science of what is expected by the working of cause and effect. The working of cause and effect. Today and throughout this trial, you'll see that the cause does not hold the effect it should. The alleged cause does not hold the effect it should. I'm sure a lot of you are logical human beings.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Throughout the trial, Christine is referred to as Christina, Tina, and CL. The first two recordings have been heavily edited due to how noisy the courtroom was, so the voices sound slightly distorted. In the next episodes, the sound improves greatly. The pain, indignity, and fear Christine faced is nothing short of shocking. Listener discretion is advised. Look for parts three and four tomorrow.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When you do a sexual assault kit, which I believe is called an ISPE or ISPSEC, a sex assault evidence collection kit, there are several steps to that kit, right? Correct. And one of them would be a general exam. Correct. And you would examine the... Declarence body, per se, you would overlook them if they happen again. Correct. And you notate them injuries, obviously, right? Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My name is Robert Mercado.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't believe so, but I don't remember.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Had you had communications with him after you were married?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She also removed some bullet fragments from the inside of the skull, packaged those up, and sent the bullet fragments, all the bones, back to the medical examiner's office. Law enforcement continued to investigate this crime. During the investigation, detectives spoke with a man named Robert Seha. He was a neighbor of the defendants, and I'll show you a resonance of the nearby.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And he was aware of the marriage? Yes. And therefore aware that your name had changed from Snyder to Holmes?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. Leading judge.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I messaged him multiple times a couple weeks before just to solidify the event. And after that, he just texted me back saying that we were canceling it.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Oh, please proceed. So he would be aware of that? Yes. In 2015, where were you living?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was living in Lawrence at the time.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm sorry, where?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In Lawrence, New York.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Robert Sehaw is going to tell you that about a month or two before law enforcement came to the Shaver residence to do this well-being check, which led to the unerbening of Michael Shaver's body, the defendant approached Mr. Sehaw and offered to sell him a pink and black .38 caliber handgun.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there a period of time in 2018 where you reached out, I'm sorry, 2016, where you reached out to Michael Shaver and attempted to communicate with him?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. And how did you do that? I just called the messenger.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When that communication occurred, would that have been after the wedding? Yes. After your name change? Yes. And when you sent that message, was that through your profile? Yes. And so it would have reflected your name of Desiree Russell.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The defendant indicated she needed the money to pay some bills, and Robert Sehaw bought this .38 caliber pink and black handgun from the defendant. Now law enforcement took this gun because of the .38 caliber and the projectile found inside Michael Shaver's skull was of a .38 caliber class.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I had gotten a new Facebook, so it might have been from my previous Facebook.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So the gun, that .38 caliber gun that the defendant sold to Mr. Sayhoff was sent along with the projectile recovered from Mr. Shaver's skull to the Ford Department of Law Enforcement for firearms analysis. Firearms analyst Megan Cleek examined that .38 caliber firearm and found it to be in working order. It was functional. It could be fired.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm going to show what a previously marked mistake is a bit. Why? I'll show that to the defense. I'm showing you a communication. Why? Do you recognize this communication between yourself and the Facebook account of Michael Shea?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
November 11, 2015, Wednesday, came along. Michael Shaver was supposed to work that day as well. Mr. Shaver didn't show up. He'd call in and say, hey, what's going on? I can't make it to work. So now that he has not shown up for work for two straight days and not called anyone letting him know, Michael Shaver's boss, John Borglum, gets involved.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I do.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She fired some test fires from that gun to then be able to take those test fire projectiles, scientifically and microscopically try to compare to the projectile found in Michael Shaver's skull to see if they were fired from the same gun. And she'll explain to you that Every gun, when it fires a projectile, leaves impressions on the projectile.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And have you reached out? to Mr. Shaver in 2016, and is that reflected there in those messages?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And it's an accurate documentation of the messages that you said have been received from the Michael Schaefer Facebook page?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, I'm going to go ahead and start you with the first message that was sent here on August 15, 2016. Was that message from you? Yes. And what was the content of that message?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And some of those impressions, if they're clear enough, they're unique. And then in certain situations, not always, but sometimes, she can microscopically examine the projectile and say, this projectile was fired by this gun because the microscopic impressions left match.
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I was just saying hello to my uncle. It says, hey, Uncle Michael.
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Though the projectile found in Michael Shaver's skull, that .38 caliber class projectile was capable of being fired from the gun, the impressions and the markings on the projectile were not clear enough for her to make any other determinations. Nothing indicated that the projectile found in Michael Shaver's skull could not have been fired from the gun.
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And above that is the response that you received?
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Was there anything unusual about your correspondence with him about that event after November 10th of 2002?
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And what was that response?
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Who are you?
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And did you respond to that?
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And what was your response?
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I'm your niece.
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Did Michael's Facebook account respond to you when you said that you were the niece?
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For instance, that projectile wasn't excluded as being fired from the gun. There was just not enough detail in the projectile for her to say, definitively, this bullet found in the skull was fired from this bullet. Now remember, we talked about Michael Shaver's friends and family had no direct, either seeing him or speaking to him, hearing this voice. No direct contact with Michael Shaver.
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And what was that response?
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I don't have any family anymore. I have no clue who you are. Never stop messaging me.
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And that message appears to have been sent on September 20, 2016? Yes.
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No further questions. My name is Wiggs.
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Yes, may I please report?
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after that weekend of November 7th, 2015. You'll hear that in December of 2015, a man named Travis Filmer came into the picture, came into the defendant's life. Travis Filmer was a man that the defendant met at a gym around December of 2015, and the defendant and Travis Filmer began to date, and shortly thereafter, Travis Filmer moved into the Shaver residence.
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Ma'am, the last time you saw Michael Shaver was what, 2001? That era time?
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Around there.
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around there, okay? He was relatively estranged from his father, correct?
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Do you know Michael Schindler?
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I don't know.
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You don't know, okay? You made no trips to Florida, correct?
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You never went to the Shaver residence, correct?
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the same residence that Michael Shaver's body was found in the backyard. You'll hear that around the end of April of 2016, a posting to the defendant's Facebook account showed a large number of concrete bags in the bed of a pickup truck. Since Michael Shaver's body was found under a concrete slab, law enforcement obviously became interested in this information.
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Michael Shaver was pretty much on his own outside the family, was he not?
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There were no visits, no homecomings, correct?
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When he would visit us.
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Last time you saw him, about 2001, correct? Yeah. Okay. In your email thread that's moved into evidence at this stage, do you know the physical address it went to?
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Yeah, he kind of just stopped talking to me and said he wanted to be left alone.
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So after Michael Shaver's body was found, Law enforcement obtained the Facebook records from both Michael Shaver's Facebook account and the defendant's Facebook account. And they looked into trying to determine, that's how they found that picture of the concrete in the vetted pickup truck. And they started looking to determine when did that concrete slab before get there.
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His Facebook profile.
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Could it not be somebody at Starbucks using his account? Could have been, could it? Reasonable? Yeah. Right. Could have been somebody in Michael Shaver's house, other than Michael Shaver, correct? I mean, I guess. Yeah. Could have been Michael Shaver himself, correct? Yes. Right. Thank you.
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Detectives discovered a receipt from Home Depot, dated September 12, 2016, that Travis Filmer rented a concrete mixer. And you'll hear that Travis Filmer and his twin brother, Austin Filmer, poured that concrete slab and laid that concrete slab with that concrete mixer that Travis Filmer rented from Home Depot.
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St. Paul's, Scott, you must know? Did you know Michael Shaver?
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How did you know him?
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We were best friends.
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And when did you first meet Michael?
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It's about second grade.
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And where were you all living at this time?
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In a small town, Lawrence, New York.
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And what about Lori Shaver? When did you first meet her?
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That was about 10 months after the November time period when nobody had ever seen Mr. Schaefer, Michael Schaefer. As law enforcement officers continued to investigate this case, they received a couple of names from defendant's defense lawyer, Mr. Williams, as people who potentially have been involved in this homicide. Those names were James Ballew and Jeremy Townsend.
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Was that out of character for him?
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We had all known each other since about kindergarten. We all went to the same K-12 school. I didn't really start to hang out with her until they started to date.
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When did Michael and Lori first start dating?
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It was about eighth grade.
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Specifically, were you present when they first got together?
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Yes, he asked her out in my bedroom.
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Absolutely.
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Did he make any special requests to you at that time?
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Yeah, he had me play boys to men in the background.
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Doing their due diligence, law enforcement went and made contact with those two people. You'll hear from James Ballew. He'll tell you that he met the defendant in about 2014 when he was working at Don Neely Chevrolet and sold her a truck. Though James Ballew was married at the time, Mr. Ballew began a romantic relationship with the defendant in 2014.
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Did you maintain a relationship with them after everyone graduated high school?
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Nothing further. Mr. Wiggs? Yes.
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Did you stay in New York after high school?
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Yes, there was periods of time where I moved to Florida, moved back to New York, moved back to Florida.
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John Borglum tried to reach out to Mr. Shaver to find out what's going on. He did so, and John Borglum got a text from Michael Shaver's phone indicating he's not coming to work. that he was having issues at home, that he was in Georgia, and to go ahead and fire him. The evidence will show, ladies and gentlemen, that Michael Shaver was not in Georgia. Michael Shaver was dead.
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What about Michael and Lori? Did they maintain their relationship after high school? Yes. Did you maintain your friendship with both of them?
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Did they stay in New York? What did they do?
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The defendant wanted a more serious relationship than what Mr. Ballou wanted. Mr. Ballou was not interested in that kind of a serious relationship with the defendant. That relationship lasted only a few months when Mr. Ballou ended it around the middle of 2014 in order to go try to work things out with his wife. From that point on, James Ballou had no contact with Lori Scherer.
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We all tended to kind of follow each other around. It's just how it worked out. So, you know, I would live in New York and they happened to be in New York. I moved to Florida. Eventually they would move to Florida. It just happened to work out that way. Eventually we all settled down in Florida.
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Mr. Mercado, did you ever call over there to transport Mr. Shaver to or from the residence? Yes. Okay. What was that regarding? Depends, really, which time. Was there more than one time?
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When they were living in Claremont, Florida, where were you living?
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Gainesville, Florida, for most of that time. And then I had moved to St. Petersburg, Florida, toward the end.
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So at that time when James Ballou ended the contact, Mike Scherer was clearly still alive as people had seen him. Law enforcement also tracked down Jeremy Townsend. You'll hear from both Jeremy Townsend and his wife, Vanessa Townsend.
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Now, at some point, did you start dating a woman by the name of Katina Vasquez?
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When did that happen?
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That started about 2008. It's been so long, 2006, 2007, that time frame.
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Jeremy Townsend will tell you that he met the defendant in a park around September or October of 2015, about one or two months before Michael Shaver dropped on the face of the earth. Jeremy would take his and his wife's child to the park where he would meet up and where he met Lori Shaver, who was there at the park with her child.
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Where did that relationship begin? New York. And at some point, were you and Katina engaged? Yes. And did she come with you and move down to Florida in one of these time frames where you were living down here, Michael and Warrie were living down here?
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How do you know Michael?
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Jeremy and his wife Vanessa were going through marital problems at the time. And Jeremy and the defendant began an affair. That affair started around December of 2015, about a month after Michael Shaver was last ever seen or heard from. Mr. Townsend would go to the Shaver residence during the defendant's lunch hour. He and the defendant would meet up sexually.
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And when they came down, did Katina and Lori become friends with each other?
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They became close friends.
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Now, I want to move to March of 2015. Were you still dating Katina at that time?
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March 2015, no.
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After you and Katina ended your relationship, did she maintain a friendship with Laura Shearer?
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And Jeremy Townsend will explain to you that he never met Michael Shaver. And the defendant told him that she and Michael Shaver were divorced. The defendant told Jeremy Townsend the same story that she's told other people that Michael Shaver, someone came and picked up Michael Shaver, took him to Georgia, and she hasn't seen from him since.
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Going back to that March of 2015, was there a time frame that Michael Shearer came to visit you at your home after the breakup with Katina?
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Yes. If I recall, that was November of 2014. Okay.
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The same story that Robert Mercado, the person she says picked Michael Shaver up, says it never happened. Around February of 2016, the affair between Jeremy Townsend and the defendant basically started falling apart. The defendant wanted more out of the relationship than it was.
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What was the status of the relationship between Mike and Lori at that time?
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He didn't really talk too much about how their relationship was. I could tell there was some tension and they were on and off. I don't believe they were dating at that time.
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There's speculation as to emotional feelings and mental processes of another individual. Sustained.
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Jeremy Townsend saw this relationship as more of a sexual fling type relationship, didn't want to get serious, but the defendant did. The defendant wanted Jeremy Townsend to file for divorce from his wife and wanted Jeremy Townsend to move in with her into the Shaver residence, same residence Michael Shaver's body was found buried behind.
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Did you see him in July of that year?
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I did, July 2015.
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Where was that? At his house. And was this the last time you ever saw him in person? I did. After November 2015, did you speak to him by phone or have any contact with him? No. Did you attempt to reach out to him between November 2015 and 2008?
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Jeremy Townsend didn't want that, didn't want to divorce his wife, didn't want to get that serious, and decided that he wanted to work things out for his own wife. Jeremy Townsend and the defendant argued about the status of their relationship together. The defendant started giving Jeremy Townsend the ultimatum. You get rid of your wife, come be with me.
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A few texts, and that's it.
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Did he ever respond to any of your texts? No. In 2018, did you have a conversation with Katina that she had about a visit to the Baristas in November of 2015?
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Yeah, that conversation was actually toward the end of 2017, maybe early 2018. It was right after my then relationship had ended. That's how I can pinpoint that.
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Or she was going to expose the affair to Jeremy Townsend's wife. A few months after this fight, between Jeremy Townsend and the defendant about exposing the affair, Jeremy Townsend's wife, Vanessa Townsend, received flowers. A few months after this fight between the defendant and Jeremy Townsend, where the defendant threatened to expose this affair, Jeremy would be his wife and come meet with her.
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Did the information that you got give you further concern about Michael Shaver and the safe?
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Absolutely.
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Once you got that information, what did you do?
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Yeah, I used to go over there all the time.
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I messaged Mike's sister on Facebook, told her what I had found out. I told her I'm going to file a missing person report based on that information. It was disturbing. I then called the sheriff's office.
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Jeremy Townsend's wife, Vanessa Townsend, received some flowers at the school where she worked as a teacher, and it was a message with those flowers. The message indicated, check your Facebook account. So Vanessa Townsend checked her Facebook account, and she noticed that she received a message from Facebook the same day she received these flowers from somebody reporting to be Michael.
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And have you talked with Michael Shaver's family about their inability to get in contact with Mr. Shaver during this period as well? I did. I have no further questions.
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Was there any time that you transported, removed any goods of his, any items of clothing with him, leaving the residence?
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Mr. Wiggs, do you know about any injunctions that have been imposed against Michael Shaver?
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I knew of one. What was that? 2014, 2015, somewhere around that. I don't know the specific details of that.
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Remember, this is about six months after anybody had seen or ever saw Michael Shaver. The message says, on November of 2015, and this is April of 2016. Vanessa Towson received this Facebook message from someone claiming to be Michael Shaver, which said that she'll be getting a special delivery. There was also a phone number associated with the delivery of those flowers in that Facebook message.
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A direct examination, we heard you recall days pretty quickly, correct? Pretty specifically, correct? Yes. You remember an injunction, but you think it may be 14, maybe 15, correct? Correct. But you know there was an injunction, correct? Correct. Right. So Michael was not in the house for a certain period of time you were aware of, correct? Correct.
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We first met at work in our apprenticeship, mechanical apprenticeship, and from there on we hit it off.
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After not showing up for work for several days, after knowing that Michael Shaver had not shown up to work for several days, Frank Merritt went to the Shaver residence and made contact with his wife, the defendant, Ms. Laurie Shaver. Frank Merritt asked about Michael. The defendant said Michael Shaver, her husband at the time, was in Georgia.
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Do you know where any messages came from? I had never received any messages from Mike.
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She accepted this friend request from the person supposedly being Michael Shaver and noticed that there were previous messages to her from this same person claiming to be Michael Shaver over the preceding months. She had not seen those Facebook messages beforehand because she wasn't a friend of Michael Shaver and didn't notice that they were there.
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Okay. When was the last day you received a message, and do you know where it came from?
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It would have been around that time that I had last seen him at his house, and I had never heard from him after that. Okay.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Introduce yourself.
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So when she looked at those messages sent purportedly from Michael Shaver's Facebook account, she noticed those messages included screenshots of conversation between Jeremy Townsend and the defendant. They included photographs of Jeremy Townsend and the defendant together. They were evidence and proof of the affair that the defendant was having with Jeremy Townsend.
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The one time I picked him up from court and took him to his residence. To obtain some things?
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My name is Corey Anderson, and I'm employed with the Lake County Sheriff's Office.
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How long have you worked for the Sheriff's Office?
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Since 2005.
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Back in 2018, what was your position?
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And these messages coincidentally started very shortly after the fight between Jeremy Townsend and the defendant, where the defendant was giving Jeremy Townsend an ultimatum, told you your wife or I'll expose the affair.
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I was a corporal on Role Patrol.
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In February of 2018, were you tasked with performing a well-being check on Warren Michael Shank? Yes, sir. Before that, where did you go?
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The evidence will show that these messages, these Facebook messages and photos and flowers were clearly an effort to expose the affair, drive a wedge between Jeremy Townsend and Vanessa Townsend and drive Jeremy back to the defendant. It didn't work. After much work with their marriage, Jeremy Townsend and Vanessa Townsend got back together and they were being married.
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So I went to the Sandy Pines Road in Claremont.
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Was that in Lake County?
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That is in Lake County, yes, sir.
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And was that one of the last known residents of Michael's?
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And who all was there that you made contact with at that time?
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So myself and Deputy Kyle Morrison.
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Okay. Who did you make contact with at the same restaurant?
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Law enforcement obviously wanted to investigate the source of these flowers with another campaign from Michael Shaver. Michael Shaver did. They obtained search warrants. They obtained a search warrant, like I said, for the defendant's Facebook account and Michael Shaver's Facebook account.
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Oh, I'm sorry. I made contact with Ms. Lori Shaver. Okay.
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And you see her and recognize her in court today?
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Yes, sir, I do.
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And when you got there, did you tell her?
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Yeah, to pick up his things. And were you there at any time when there was any violence between Mr. Shaver and Ms. Shaver?
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Did you ask?
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I did, sir.
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They found those Facebook messages from Michael Shaver's account to Vanessa Townsend's account talking about the affair, photos, and the flowers, and the delivery, and things like that. They issued subpoenas for the defendant's bank records, for the victim's bank records, and you're going to see that the defendant and Michael Shaver have separate bank accounts.
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What did she where did she tell him?
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She said that she hasn't seen him since, I think, October 2014, and that he kind of just absconded the family.
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And did she mention to you if she had any phone or text contact with him since that?
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She did mention that he had not reached out to the children or her in some time.
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Detectives issued a subpoena for the defendant's cell phone records for Michael Shaver's. And eventually law enforcement officers received all of these records and started to pour through them when they came in.
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Did you ask her if it was okay to look in the backyard?
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Yes, sir, I did.
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Why were you interested in the backyard?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Part of the information that we received on the well-being check was that there was a new cement slab. Is there a cement slab?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They found that Michael Shaver's cell phone had no outgoing calls after November 7th of 2015, which coincides with the last time anyone had ever seen or directed this post from Michael Shaver. The defendant's cell phone records didn't show any phone calls or texts to Michael Shaver's number.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir. Come on up for a sidebar. Thank you. Did you go in the backyard?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir, I did. I observed a cement slab in the backyard where there was, it looked to be like brick rock structure that created the fire pit.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In the course of your law enforcement career, have you responded to scenes that involved bodies buried in shelters? Yes, sir, I have. And possibly how many times have you... made those types of pops?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Detectives looked at the defendant's bank records and you'll hear that they traced the purchase of those flowers that were sent to Vanessa Townsend as coming out of the defendant's bank account. Further evidence that the defendant was the one that was responsible for sending those flowers and sending the Facebook messages acting as if she was Michael Schaefer to Vanessa Townsend.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I've been on those scenes, probably between five and 10 scenes similar to that. Yes, sir.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So you witnessed that? Yes. And there was a 911 call, correct? Not at that time, no. Okay. Did you have to get between Mr. Shaver?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was there anything that you saw about the cement slab itself that gave you some concerns?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Remember I said that there was a phone number associated with that Facebook message that I sent to Vanessa Townsend? Well, they traced, they looked into that phone number and determined that phone number was associated also with the defendant. Further evidence said the defendant was the one portraying herself to be Michael Shaver, after Michael Shaver died.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what was that?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So as I approached the cement slab, you could clearly see a depression that was approximately between six feet and three feet in dimension and about eight inches depressed. had the shape of what could be a normal-sized adult body.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Because there were a variety of sources indicating that they received text messages or Facebook messages from Michael Shaver after that November 7th, 2015 weekend, detectives dove deeper into the records and deeper especially into those Facebook records to see if they could find evidence that someone was logging into Michael Shaver's Facebook records and portraying himself to be Michael Shaver.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you take photographs of that meth sloth at that time?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir, I did. With my cell phone?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir. I'm showing witness when it's produced at the Mark 6 exhibit. See? She recognized those photographs.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He said that a co-worker of Mike's, a guy named Robert Garcado, picked Mr. Shaver up and drove him to Georgia, and he was gone. The defendant said that Michael Shaver left because she and Mr. Shaver had an argument. Frank Barrett did notice that Michael Shaver's car was still on the Shaver residence property and it had a flat tire. Frank Merritt texted Michael Shaver here and there several times.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir. I took these photographs with my phone.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And is that a fair and accurate depiction of the cement slab you saw the day that you were out there with?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But Michael Shaver was dead. And the detectives found such evidence. detectives investigated the internet protocol addresses provided by Facebook for the accounts of both the defendant and Michael Shaver's Facebook accounts. And for those of you who are not IT directors, an internet protocol, you'll hear that an internet protocol address or an IT address is kind of like a physical address.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, Corporal Anderson, is this the first photograph that's in States No. 14? Yes, sir. It is. Yes. Now, can you step down and just demonstrate to the jury the area that Gaby falls in concern when you're out there? Oh, here? Yes. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So, obviously, I took this picture, so I'm really standing right here looking at the sentence lap. Lady Ms. Shaver was on my left, and Deputy Morrison was across from me. As I approached...
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It is assigned to a particular location through the internet provider like Spectrum, Verizon, Cox, whatever it is that provides internet service to a house or a business. So for example, when I am home, my home is assigned a unique IP address to my house through my internet provider, which just happens to be Spectrum. That IP address is what gives my home access to the internet.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
With permission to be on the property, I just snapped a few shots with my cell phone so that I could really portray what I'm actually seeing to supervisors, to the criminal investigation bureau for a previous investigation.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So the second photograph, is this the other photograph that you took? Correct, yes, sir. Now, can you show the jury the area of that depression that you previously described? This darkened area is the depression.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That IP address is unique to my house. It's going to be different than my neighbor's. It's going to be different than Starbucks. It's unique to me or to my house. Also on my home or as a business, a business is a device called a router. A router is a device that allows multiple devices inside the house.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I had to get between both of them. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was about six feet in length and about three feet in width. And it appears to be like a mentioned cement slab where it wouldn't be as thick and couldn't have a depression if there was a shallow grave there.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
to connect to the internet at the same time, such as if I'm on my phone, if I'm on my laptop, if my wife is on her phone and her laptop, they all can be used together and access the internet. The router sends out a signal to those devices. All of us and all those devices will share the same IP address because that IP address is unique to my house.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when we're talking about the depression, are you saying that it was not flat across? Correct.
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So you could actually see where that darkening area is where it was depressed and water would settle there, which is brought the dirt that stays in the area.
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And just to make sure everyone's clear, can you just point to the area on that slide that shows this? This is the defroshing area. Thank you. Now, after these observations were made by you, did the sheriff's office obtain a search warrant to further search that area and the backyard of the Shaver residence? Yes, sir. Were you involved in the actual excavation of that area?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So if I log into Facebook with my phone and I post a photo or I post a message or I do something to my account, Facebook, the organization of Facebook keeps those records and they keep the IP addresses associated with the device that activated Facebook. Often the internet provider will change IP addresses, but ultimately they are unique to the house.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When Mr. Shaver left the residence, do you know where he resided? No.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was not actually involved in the excavation, but I was on scene for security. So I'm basically keeping a media within the Shaver residence just so that we can maintain our...
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So if I'm at home, I'm logging onto Facebook, and Mr. D'Amusio decides to come over to my house, and he logs into my network, we're going to be sharing the same ID address at that same time, because we're in the same general location, the same house, using the same network and the same ID address.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Between the time frame when you made those alterations, did the sheriff's office maintain security with this scene until it was searched? Yes, sir, we did. And when we talk about maintaining that scene or securing it, what does that entail?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I took him home with me that night, and then the following day, he stayed at the Warbirds Museum hangar for roughly the better part of a year after that. Okay. Did you witness any homicide in this case? No, sir.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Detectives received those Facebook records from the defendant's account and Michael Shaver's account from November of 2015 up through about November of 2017.
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So it was 24-hour security where a deputy sheriff sat out in front of the property, and it was 12-hour shifts. So we had 24-hour coverage on the property until we secured that scene for it.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When the detectives got those IP addresses from Facebook, unfortunately they were not able to determine the physical address that that IP address was assigned to because those records were too old and they had been purged by the internet service provider. They shouldn't exist anymore.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And during that time frame, were you able to maintain visual sight on this area in the cement slot? Not you personally, but were you in position to observe it and make sure the property had not been checked? Correct. Yes, sir. Nothing further, Judge?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But what they were able to determine is that during that three-year period of time, from around November 2015 to November 2017, Michael Shaver's Facebook remained active despite the fact that he did. There were postings during that period of time. There were photos posted. There were funny little memes posted on his account. His profile picture had changed. His account had been deactivated.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right, Mr. Wiggs? Yes, thank you, Judge. Perfect. All right. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, so you know what this ground looked like prior to this concrete VMA? I don't, sir. Okay. Do you know if this would have been dug out and it created a natural inclination for the concrete to be placed?
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Do you remember Mr. Schafer saying that prior to Mr. Schafer leaving, they would need to create some type of ducting room? But they didn't.
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There was activity. Some of the activity on Michael Shaver's Facebook account actually occurred after that concrete slab under which his body was found was actually poured. So we know Michael Shaver couldn't have been doing it back then.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You have a little more experience of law enforcement investigations than a lot of people, correct? Some. Okay. Sustained. Okay. Invited to this status of a corporal. Correct. Okay. And this dark spot led you to believe there might be a body up there, correct?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When they examined the IP addresses associated with Michael Shaver and the defendant's Facebook account during that time period, detectives noticed that the same IP address was used by both the defendant's and Michael Shaver's Facebook accounts. Sometimes those Facebook accounts were accessed using the same IP address with the evidence of each other.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
A shallow grave, for sure, but not necessarily a body. You see a dark spot over there? Correct. Was there a body over there? Not in that specific area, Mr. We see shading back in here.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there any evidence of the crime there? I didn't see any. Okay. You see shadow areas throughout this, around these posts and stuff. Was there any evidence of a crime or a bump in our body under any of those locations? No, sir. Okay. So when y'all were out there doing the excavation, Ms. Shaber remained there at the residence, correct? Correct. For most of the time, she was free to leave.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The evidence will show that because those accounts share that same IP address within sometimes minutes of activity on each of the accounts, that's consistent with those devices. Accessing accounts, people appear in the same.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He got responses occasionally from Michael Shaver's phone, but never had the ability to speak directly with Michael Shaver to verify that Mr. Shaver was the one sending those messages. As I said, the evidence will show that Michael Shaver was dead. He was not the one responding to those text messages. I'm just going to show that the defendant gradually got rid of Michael Shaver's property.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The evidence will show that such activity, combined with common sense and all of the other circumstances in this case, is consistent with the defendant logging in to Michael Shaver's Facebook account and posting things portraying herself to be Michael Shaver or acting as if she was Michael Shaver. The evidence will show that she did this to carry on the facade that Michael Shaver was still alive.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, did she leave? She did. She did? Mm-hmm. Didn't she try to take flight in any manner about returning to the property? No, sir. Okay.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Welcome to Crimatorium. Laurie Shaver was a Florida woman whose seemingly ordinary life unraveled when authorities uncovered the body of her husband, Michael Shaver, buried in the backyard beneath a concrete slab. Michael, born in New York and just 33 years old at the time, was a Disney employee who disappeared in 2015. For years, Larry claimed he had simply walked away from their marriage.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Please introduce yourself to the jury.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Hi, I'm Jessica Wade. Where do you work? I work with the Lake County Sheriff's Office.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
To carry on the facade and alleviate the concerns of his friends or family members who may inquire. To alleviate the concerns of law enforcement who may be asked to go look into where Michael Shaver is. Done to torment Vanessa Townsend by sending her message portraying herself as Michael Shaver who exposed the affair between the defendant and Jeremy Townsend. All of this done after Michael Shaver.
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What do you do for them?
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I am currently a crime scene investigator.
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Let me direct your attention to March 9th of 2018. Did you respond to 9850 Sandy Pines Road in Claremont?
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Is that in Malik County?
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Do you know what Mr. Shaver was doing 24 hours before his death?
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When you arrived there, tell the jury a picture of what you saw and what was going on.
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The scene was a large piece of property that was completely fenced off with multiple other fenced off paddocks for animals. The residence was a manufactured home and it was closest to the road on that piece of property. And then there were multiple marked and unmarked law enforcement vehicles.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Ladies and gentlemen, as I said, this is a case about common sense. When you look at all the evidence, you listen to the testimony of all the witnesses, you examine all the circumstances, not the least of which is Michael Shaver's body was found buried under a concrete slab in the backyard of the defendant's residence.
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Had a search warrant been obtained that allowed you and other crime scene investigators, law enforcement officers, and the like to go to that scene to search for evidence?
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There can only be one common sense conclusion, and that is the defendant is guilty beyond any reasonable doubt.
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Yes, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, we've heard the states open, and we've heard one repeated statement. Common sense. Just use your common sense. It's all about common sense. Now, the judge is going to give you instructions, and he's going to give you boundaries under the law. And it's not going to say, just find the defendant guilty by common sense. That's the state stand.
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Is that search warrant signed by a judge? Yes. Once that search warrant was obtained and you all went out there to the scene, did you begin to process that scene?
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Not immediately.
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At some point, did you?
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No, sir. Do you know who was present with Mr. Shaver 24 hours before his death? No, I do not. Some of his stuff so he can leave the residence and while he was doing that I started to hear arguments and they started fighting just arguments and at that time when I walked in I noticed that she had a gun in her hand, and she was waving it around saying she was going to hurt herself.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Generally, what is the term processing a scene in?
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Again, it's where we go and observe what we have, and then to locate and document the items that are there.
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During that process, were photographs taken?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The facts are far different from what the state is pronounced here today. And let me tell you, really, how this case originated, what was done and what was not done by the state and the states. Lori Shaver, who lived with Michael Shaver, got married to these young kids. while he showed up. And it was a tumultuous barrage. Went on for years and years.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You mentioned photographs were taken? Yes. Showing you what's in market stations and if that all happened previously, could you say to look into that item and tell me if you recognize the contents? Yes. Yes. We're going to go through them individually, but generally, what do those photographs show?
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Those are of the scene throughout the process.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing you photo one of Saints 15. What are we looking at here?
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That is a bird's eye view of most of the property.
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Was there a dirt mound located about 400 feet away from the residence?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So it was a lot of physical violence that turned out in this sentence. A lot. You'll see that there were injunctions imposed, that Michael was unannounced, he was unannounced. It was all going wrong. And the shavers had some children. This was not a pleasant answer. Mr. Shaver, you'll hear, was very possessive. He was very combative. He was very destructive.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing you photograph 10 of Saints 15. Is that what you're referring to?
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Was ground penetrating radar brought into the scene to assist in looking around?
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And who brought that in?
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Dr. Sutton with the University of Florida.
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Was the ground penetrating radar run over this section?
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And generally, without going into real great detail, what did it show?
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Dr. Sutton advised us that she visualized an anomaly on her role on the screen, which shows basically that there's a disturbance within the service.
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He opposed fear in his family over and over again. And Ms. Shaver did not want to be with Mr. Shaver. That was clear. But Ms. Shaver did not resort to violence at any time, in any form, in any manner. What happened was Mr. Shaver was corrected to be out of the residence. And as the state announced, yes, she began to date other people. One, Mr. and another guy, Jeremy Townsend.
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So what was done in this area that was about 400 feet away from the main residence?
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as far as.
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Was it estimated a little bit?
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Okay. Explain how, what was done and how that happened.
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We start out and we do, it has to be done layers at a time, usually a few inches. And each time we get to a certain point, we stop and document with photography, anything that's there. So the lack or the presence of any items. And if there's nothing there, then we document the dust and then we continue on into the next step.
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And ultimately, after that process, in this area on the property, were any human remains found there?
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The state didn't know about Jeremy Townsend until we told them about Jeremy Townsend. What happened was Mr. Townsend had been in a military. I think he was in Special Forces and trained for Special Forces. And he began to take more. This relationship was not as the state would suggest, some might think. This went on for months and months.
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About how deep did you guys dig to make that determination?
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We had to dig for about 60 feet.
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Okay. All right, referring back to the fire pit that you've described in that concrete slab, was there something written in the concrete slab in the concrete? Yes. First of all, can you point where that was located?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you talk about your apprenticeship at work, where did you go?
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It's right here on the edge.
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Okay, and what was written there? What emblem was there?
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There's a heart shape with the letters T, the plus sign, and L. Was that kind of like in the concrete before the concrete would have hardened?
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And all we have to think is Mr. Townsend was confronted because his tune changed. Mr. Townsend, even after these charges were filed, was still following Mrs. Hsieh. Still here. Still stalking her. This was a man that was infatuated with Morris Hsieh. Now, they did live on Anchorage, and there was, as the state suggests, an intent to build this stockpile. It was going to be a family affair.
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Yes. All right, showing you again photograph eight of states 11. Was there something unusual in that concrete area near the fire fence that drew your attention?
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She sold his four-wheelers, sold some expensive tools, sold guns. She knew Michael Shaver wasn't coming back. She knew Michael Shaver wasn't going to need those things because she knew Michael Shaver is dead. You're going to hear from Robert Mercado, the person that the defendant indicated taking Michael Shaver out of the drove into Georgia.
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First of all, point where that was located.
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It would be right here on the far side.
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And kind of describe what was unusual about it.
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So that area was kind of depressed. It was like sinking in, and then it's also got a lot of discoloration on it.
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kids were out there helping them trying to build it and it settles like what I understand they kind of got wore down with the project so they kind of abandoned their little project during the sire at that stage but leaving some ground partially exposed that was the
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Show me photo 12 of Stakes 15. Where was that depressed area in this photograph?
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The depression is right here.
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On the bottom right of the photograph?
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And photograph 13 of Stakes 15, is that another angle of it?
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Was brown penetrating radar also brought into this area and run over top of this depressed area?
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it was not designed by Lori Shaver to bury Mr. Shaver for the carry out some nefarious intent in the future that's how that came about though now what happened was Mr. Shaver Mr. Townsend was having this affair with Lori And Mr. Shaver was not supposed to be at the residence. Morning arrives. Mr. Shaver arrives on the scene. Begins battering Lori Shaver. He wants her back.
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And again, generally, we're not going into great detail what was found.
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Dr. Simmons again reported an anomaly on the screen.
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So what was decided to be done in this area regarding that anomaly?
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At this point, we decided it would be beneficial to do an excavation at this site as well.
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Showing you photograph 14 of states 15. Can you describe to the jury how it was that you went about excavating this, the initial stages?
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First, we had to document everything as it was, and then we had to remove the concrete so that we could start doing the excavation process.
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And what was done with the pieces of concrete that were broken up?
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They were set aside.
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Showing you photo 15 of States 15. What does this show?
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She was chattel chattel, just like a car or a piece of fire. And she informs him, I'm not going. We're not doing that. We're not doing that. And she starts giving the dead he's been in. I heard this. Isabel, Isabel Shade. The state didn't know about Isabel. We advised the state about Isabel. Only be turned away. Only be turned away from their office. Because they formulated a plan.
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It just shows that they're continuing to remove the concrete.
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And photograph 16, what do we see here?
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It's the continuation. That's it. Freaking removed and then it cleaned out.
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Vote of Ref 17. What does this show?
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At this point, we're removing the papers that are around the actual fire pit and then going through the fire pit itself.
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Was the fire pit basically demolished in this process? Yes. Okay. Can you describe for the jury the process that you go through when you're performing an excavation like this regarding digging and the sifting process?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They formulated a design. This is how it happened, but we don't want to hear another story. So when we sit in line. But Isabel, I'll tell you what happens. Isabel has her own attorney appointed by Fowler Johnson. We did not want any appearance, any discussions with Isabel. That were unguided, inappropriate, but would look inappropriate. So Ms. Johnson came on to represent. So Ms.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So once we, like I said before, we have the layers of dirt that we pull out. Once we pull the dirt out, they go into these buckets, and then they get taken to sifting stations, and we take turns sifting through, and it's a fine mesh material, so the smaller items are not able to fall through, and in case we don't see them in the dirt, we're able to find them in the sifting tray.
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Is this a process that takes a half hour or so, or can it take a long time, sometimes days?
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It sometimes can go up to days, depending on what we're doing.
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Johnson has advised her of the dangers of taking the stand. What could happen to her if she were to take the stand? But Isabel says she's going to tell the truth, not going to tell you what happened. And as she relays, she's at the residence with her father. And then walks by, carrying on. He starts to battle his wife. And Isabel fears filling up. She hears a lot of commotion.
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Photograph 18, what do we see here?
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This is where the 80, a good portion of the dirt has been removed.
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Photograph 19 of states 15, what does this show?
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It shows a bone, or a hospital bone sticking out of this.
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Can you point the photograph where that is?
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It'll be right here towards the center.
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Photograph 20 of States 15. What do we see here?
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That is the phone that was removed from the dirt.
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So I separated them, removed the weapon from the area, consoled her and tried to calm her down while he got the rest of his stuff, and then we left.
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What was done eventually with this phone?
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This phone and anything else that we found phone related was then transported with the medical examiner's office back to the medical examiner.
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She hears someone attacking. Leave me alone, leave me alone. She walks in the room to testify. Poor old Michael is sitting in a chair with his foot on Lori Shaver's head as Lori's gassed. And Michael is sitting there threatening to kill her. And this young girl, in desperation and in fear, runs and betrays a firearm. That she believes she shot, why, she thinks she did. She says she found she had.
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Photograph 21 of space 15. What does this show?
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And this shows approximately the depth at which we found that bone.
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And about how deep was that bone located?
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About 20 inches.
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Once you found that humorous bone, about what time was it in the day?
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It would be about 1705 or 505 p.m.
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Now, considering it was probably going to be getting dark relatively soon and you still had more work to do, what decision was made about continuing or stopping it?
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At that point, we decided that it would be more beneficial to hold the scene for the evening and then return the following morning.
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Robert Mercado also worked with Michael Shaver at Epcot, but they didn't work at the same ride. They worked at different rides, so they didn't see each other on a regular basis. Saw each other occasionally, but not all the time. Mr. Mercado will explain to you that there were plans for a work-type Thanksgiving get-together to happen at the Shaver residence.
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What do you mean by hold the scene?
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She believes she had. But almost simultaneously, in walks Jay. He sees what's going on. Lori is still on for it. Lori has not even got to her deal. And Jay walks in, picks her gun from this about. Shoots Michael Schaefer in the head. Says, Ori, get these kids out of here. I'll take care of this. Anybody says a thing about this, I'll kill you too. Ori said, we were like deer in headlights.
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To secure it, cover it with tarps, and make sure that nothing else can get in, and then have deputies that close it on scene overnight to ensure that nobody has access to the area.
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So when was the next time you came back to the scene?
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The following morning at around 7 a.m.
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Did investigators from the medical examiner's office also come to assess?
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Is that common for medical examiner's investigators to come to the scene and be involved in this process?
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You mentioned it was an investigator. The actual medical examiner, the doctor from the office, he wasn't there. Was the medical examiner investigators? Correct. That morning were additional photographs taken at the scene? Yes. Showing you photograph 22 of States 15. What do we see here?
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Got into the car. I took the kids to a school. Ismael said, this was so routine, the violence in this household. I was just not, but we didn't shoot. And mom, as a stake would want you to believe, is so infatuated with Jay, broke it off right there. We don't want to see you. Now, Lori assumes Jay has done something with the body. Beyond her knowledge, it's whereabouts, right? It's just not.
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This is how we left the scene before we left. We secured the tarp over the opening and then placed canopies over.
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So that canopy there was placed by law enforcement?
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And we see several different blue tarps. Are those law enforcement's blue tarps?
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And why are there some of those blue tarps that have dirt on them?
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So when you're referring to some violence that you've observed between them, you never saw Michael Shaver touch or strike Ms. Shaver in any way?
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Those tarps were set up for the sifting station, so once it's sifted, it stays on that tarp.
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Michael's been the biggest nightmare in her life, but all she could do is bury her thoughts. That's it. Yes, the police come knocking, the police come inquiring, the police come looking around, the police get a warrant, and yes, the body of Michael is shaping us down. Unbeknownst to Lori, Mr. Townsend had put me on that ground being prepared
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Did you and your team continue this digging and sifting, the excavation process?
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What does this show? Photograph 23 of stage 15.
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Right here towards the center, it shows the edge of a blue tarp.
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This is not a blue tarp, the law enforcement brought it, correct?
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When you come across... Things like this, like a blue tarp. How do you make sure you don't damage the tarp or the item in the whole digging process? Are you using big old shovels or what are you doing?
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originally for the duck park now the state keeps using words like common sense just rely on common sense because they don't have really any evidence no real evidence to glory shaver kill her sure you are not going to hear any technician don't fdla person say you know we found maury shaver's friends ain't on that park We found Lori Shaver's DNA on that turret.
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Initially, we are using larger shovels. Once we come across any items that are deemed to be of evidentiary value, we then switch to smaller hand tools and brushes so that nothing else does get destroyed or damaged.
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Showing you photograph 24 of Stakes 15. What do we see here?
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Again, here in the center, it's more of the tarp that's been exposed.
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And where are all those buckets around?
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Those are for the dirt that's being removed as we're taking it out.
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And those buckets then go to the sifting stations? Yes. Photograph 25 of Stakes 15. What does this show?
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We found, we didn't find any whereabouts or knowledge or connection between that turret, that gun, that socket wrench, hand wrench, with Lori Shaver. Nothing. What we spoke about more in our life about this. So there's no connective link between Lori and the death. of having this attorney.
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Right here, we have the tarp, and then we found another vault.
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Photograph 26 of States 15. What do we see there?
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Yeah, it's a close-up of the previous photo.
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No, he would never.
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And what was done with this photo?
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It was also eventually transported with the rest of the remains.
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Photograph 27 of States 15. What else was found? What do we see in this photograph?
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The only thing that you saw was Mr. Shaver brandishing a weapon and making threats.
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And regrettably, Isabel was placed in the posture, you know, event you come up here and tell y'all what happened. Nobody wanted to talk to Isabel. Nobody wanted to look at what truly happened in this case. So here we are. The state's case, as we say it, is really a case of conjecture. It's a case of emotion, something we're supposed to fight for.
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These are smaller bones, presumed to be probably hand, from the hand bones. And they were placed in this Tupperware container, so they did not get displaced.
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I'm assuming law enforcement brought this Tupperware and used it?
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Okay, just to store the items? Yes. Photograph 28 of Sates 15. What do we see here?
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So Mr. Mercado sent some text message to Michael Shaver several weeks before this get-together was supposed to happen to see, hey, are there plans still to go? Are we still doing this thing? He got no response. Mr. Mercado texted Michael Shaver several times, two or three times.
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Right here, we have another couple of bones that have been exposed.
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And these photographs are just kind of showing the progression of the excavation process? Yes. All right. Photograph 29 of stage 15. What else was located next to that blue tarp or underneath that blue tarp?
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Something to try to pull at your heart if you're sorry for Michael Sheen. So what do they think we're going to do? We're going to get some digital data and say it came from Michael Sheen? That digital data came from Rory Shaver? You ask yourself this, how does this digital data prove that Lori Shaver killed Michael Shaver? It doesn't.
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In the area of the blue tarp, you see this green strap. It's similar to that of like a ratchet strap.
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Did you locate any part of like an elastic sheet with that strap or near the strap?
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Can you explain what you found?
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So the elastic that we found is consistent with what would be from like a fitted sheet from a bed. And then that, all that was remaining was the elastic band.
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At Walt Disney World.
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Now, the state and their bravery has not even listed in their information that she needed an assistant in covering up the crime. Why? Because they do with Susan. And they didn't want to have to deal with that. So Davidson should. They don't want to look at everything, but they should have looked at it. You see? The state was going on about this digital data.
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I'm showing you if an ornament got induced into evidence and states that there are three. I'm not going to ask you to pull it out because we have pictures. Let's take a look inside and see what's inside. You want some gloves? There's some right over there.
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Nothing further.
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Up in there.
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Up in there we have the strap and the container.
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Mr. Wiggins, 911 call.
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Photograph 30 of States 15. What does this show?
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This is more of the bones that were exposed and with the brownish strap and the blue tarp.
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Richard Conner will be called by the defense. He's a digital data guy. One of our jurors. and he'll talk about the exploration of IP registrations, that they expire in time and then at a certain point they don't link an IP address to a device, to an individual, or a location. But the Stang thinks we could pull this out of the ether of space, out of nowhere, and say, well here's some digital data
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Photograph 31 of States 15. What do we see here?
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That has most of the tarp exposed, and then it shows the green strap that's kind of tied around the tarp.
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That's 32 of stage 15.
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This is a close-up of more of the strap, the tarp, and then you can start to see more bones that are exposed.
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Not that I'm aware of at that time, no. Okay.
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So was the blue tarp both on top of and beneath the bones and the strap? Yes. So is it consistent with the bones and the strap being wrapped in the blue tarp?
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Throw it at you. And then we're going to assume, and you assume, on top of that, Lori Shamer killed Michael Shamer when there's no connective link. It's a big step to make an allegation like this. It's a huge step. It's a huge step for you to try to lead to the conclusion they want to say it's going to put before you that Lori Shamer killed Michael Shamer.
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Photograph 33, what does this show?
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This shows the tarp being removed from the site.
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And was that tarp collected as evidence?
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I'm showing you state's exhibit one in evidence already. And in the packaging I just showed you, is the blue tarp in different sections?
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Did you see anything happen to Mr. Shaver? Not that night. Okay. Mr. Shaver was acting aggressive on that night, correct? They both were. They both were, okay. And Mr. Shaver's the one that left the residence, correct? Yes, I took him with me, yes. Out of his necessity because of his act of violence, correct?
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Okay, we'll get to explain why that in a few minutes. Photograph 34 states 15. What do we see here?
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And were you guys going through the apprenticeship at the same time?
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Instead, what Isabel says is what happened. There's nobody to refute Isabel Shea. Now, we didn't contrive this witness. We went to the city early on and said, let's level it. Think they're going to go after Jeremy. Look at what the cause was. But now they fixed the position, formulated a plan,
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Photograph 35, is the tarp fully removed?
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Yes. And was the rest of the skeleton eventually located? Yes. And what do we see here in photo 36 of States 15?
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That is part of the rest of the remains that were found along with the range strap.
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Photograph 37, what does this show?
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This is when we're actually removing the rest of the remains from the site.
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The white sheet, is that a sheet provided by law enforcement or was that in the grave?
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despite the powers and the responsibilities they have, they're not seeking justice, they're seeking a fine. And the two are two opposite goals. They're not seeking justice, they're seeking a fine. We'll keep that in mind. Now, Lori is likewise charged with this crime of accessory.
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That is provided by the Medical Examiner's Office, and that, when you put it underneath very carefully, and we're able to look down the refrigerator.
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Was a skull found? Yes. Showing you photograph 38 of States 15. What do we see here?
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Eventually, Michael Shaver's phone responded to Robert Mercado and said, leave me alone, I'm working on my marriage and my family. Robert Mercado did not actually speak with Michael Shaver at that time. That communication was done by text-to-phone link. Again, the evidence would show Michael Shaver's design was dead. Most importantly, Robert Mercado will explain to you that in no time,
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This is the top four shows.
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Were photos taken to show the depth of where the bones were located?
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The state has no information, no data, no communications that anybody was given any particular assistance after this events. The most the state can do, the very most the state can do is try to say, well, she lied this day, or maybe she lied that day, or maybe she lied that day. Okay? Lori Shaver is not here on trial for lying or making a misrepresentation. That's not evidence of a burden.
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And what does photograph 39 show?
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This is showing that the bones were located about 36 inches.
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About three feet down?
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Photograph 40 states 15. Was any clothing located on a part of the human remains?
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What was found?
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Remains had a pair of boxers and then a pair of underwear, shorts, and also a pair of socks.
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Were those clothing items actually, were the bones contained inside of those clothing items as if they were being worn at the time?
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And were those items also collected? So you'll introduce the evidence in states four and five. Do you recognize the contents of these items?
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That's evidence to evoke a motion to try to anger them into a judgment about justice. But she never thinks. Now, the state carries the burden of proof, as we've discussed all the way through the case. Orin Shaver is not required because she may. But you will hear from Mr. Compton. You will hear from Ms. Powell. You will hear that. Okay? And you will hear Jeremy Townsend.
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That will be the sports with the boxers and then also the socks.
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During the excavation process, were any... fibers that look like hair collected as well.
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And what would have, what would happen with those items during the collection process?
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Those items we collected and submitted as evidence.
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During the sifting process, were any additional items located, such as, you know, smaller bones, nails, things like that?
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What was found?
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I'm sure we found a couple of the smaller bones, and then we also found pieces of fingernail and some more hair-like fibers.
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Well, that's just Jeremy Townsend. Well, guys are going to watch it. You will not watch it. But Jeremy Townsend has spoken with the state. He's dealt with the state. This man's not going to get up on the stand. He's both himself. Okay? So we could probably inform Mr. Gasson that something negotiated has to be done with the state.
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You mentioned that the human remains collectively were transported to the medical examiner's office?
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Is that customary?
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And who would have done that transport?
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They have a transport unit with the medical examiner's office that does that process.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Once the human remains were removed from that hole, did you and your team members continue to dig further beneath?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Objection, Your Honor. Maybe a motion?
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You will see no witness confirmation that Warren Shaver killed Michael Shaver. At the end of the case, the state is going to play out that motion. and say, was this maybe a statement, or that a statement, or this direction here, or this direction there. It's made to the conclusion, she killed my children. That's not what cases are about. They're about real evidence.
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We continue to dig just to make sure that nothing is located below where the remains were found. And then once we reach a hard-to-combact area, we know that we've reached the bottom portion of that site.
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Was anything of significance found below where the bones were located?
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Before the fire pit was dismantled by the heavy equipment, was that examined?
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Showing you photograph 41 of states 15. Was a piece of laminate flooring located within that fire pit?
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We ask that you listen to the evidence, the real evidence, those that you can draw logical conclusions from. I'll speculate in imaginary conclusions that those are as if somebody murdered another person. And when we listen to them, we believe that more than one reasonable doubt exists. Multiple reasonable doubts by lack of evidence, the conflict in evidence, and the fact.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was that item collected? Showing you also already introducing the evidence to state six. Recognize that I can decide that, right? Yes. What is it?
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It was for the betterment of both of them that he left. He left by law, correct? Correct. Not that night, no.
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That's the state of laminate flooring.
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Okay. Switching gears a little bit. Showing you photograph 42 of states 15. What part of the residence do we see here?
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This is the back door of the residence with the attached porch.
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And without a good feeling, we will not be standing. We'll waver and vacillate. And based on that direction, because the judge killed them, on the defendant's liability in this case. Mr. Farrakhan, please introduce yourself to the jury.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Photograph 43 of Sates 15. What is this?
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Sliding glass door on the backside of the house.
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Did you examine the sliding glass door that we see here in the photograph?
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We just wanted to rule out that there were any bodily fluids that may have been present at some time.
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Hello, my name is Frank Farrakhan. I'm the vice chair of the jury. And can you go off and spell your last name, please? M-V-R-R-I-T-T. How long did you know my bishop? About a year. When you're talking about a year for a year, that then became a year from his disappearance in November 2015. Yes, I was in November 2014 through 2015.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you use any other... type of device to help you look for the presence of bodily fluids.
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What'd you do?
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At this point, it was a little later in the evening when it was darker, but we used a chemical called Blue Star, and it is a preliminary test to see if there's the presence of blood, and it reacts with the hemoglobin and the iron in the blood.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you ever go over to his house that he shared with the point of Lori Shainer to visit or socialize? Yes, I did. And would you socialize with them at other locations as well? Yes, we did. How long did you know Lori Shainer?
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And when you use that Blue Star, is it a spray or a liquid, or what is it?
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They come as tablets. We have to mix them into water, and once they're dissolved, we can spray it using a regular spray bottle.
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Not that night? It was a different night? It was the previous night. I see. Okay. And you came to retrieve his belongings with him, correct? Yes. And he was acting violent at that time? No, he was not. Okay. You just stated you got in between the two of them? Yes. Because they were acting violent, correct? While he was trying to retrieve his stuff, yes. Okay. Thank you.
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Probably half that time.
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And do you recognize her? Do you see her on the booklet there? Yes. Now, where did you first meet up with Mr. Shainer?
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And when you sprayed the area of the track, the sliding glass door, what happened?
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There was a reaction. The reaction that it has is a luminescence, so it turns blue if there is any kind of reaction.
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In the world.
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And where was that?
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We went for a lot of Disneyland.
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What kind of work do you, back then, did you do for Disney? And what kind of work did Michael Schafer do for Disney? Are you aware he went through apprenticeship in order to get this job with Disney? And because of the fact he went through their apprenticeship program, did Disney furnish him with tools that he would need?
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Now, does that mean if it turns blue and luminescent, does that mean there's definitely blood there?
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Other things can react. Again, since it reacts with iron, if there's any iron in the material that we spray, that could also react or some cleaning materials also can react.
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So what did you do as far as documenting that area and collecting evidence from that area of the sliding glass door?
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Once that apprenticeship was completed, were those tools still the property of Disney, or was he basically given those tools by Disney?
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During the weekend or around the weekend of November 7th of 2015, did he go over to the Shaver residence? At no time did he load Michael Shaver up and said, that should be. And at no time did he take Michael Shaver to Georgia. Directly contradicting the statements that the defendant was making to various people about where Michael Shaver went.
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The area was photographed and swapped for ultimately collected from the area.
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Can you explain to the jury how you would go about collecting a sample using a swab from an area like that?
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They were his once he completed them.
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Now, were you aware of marital issues between Michael Shaver and Laurie Shaver over the course of the time you've been there?
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When we swab something, we have to use sterile water. We put one drop of sterile water just to hydrate the sterile cotton swab. And then once that takes place, we can kind of go back and forth several times over the area to make sure we get one large enough sample.
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And did there come a time where he was living at a Warburg's tenor? Yes. And when was that in relation to when you first met him?
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Probably through the middle of the summer of 2015.
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Did you perform that process and collect swabs from both the inside and outside tracks of that sliding glass door?
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And during that time that he was separated, was there a period of time where you knew Michael was dating someone else?
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Show me what's been marked as evidence to say it's a J and say it's a K. Did those tell you if you recognize those packages?
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Who was that? You remember her last name? Now, at some point, did that relationship end and Michael went back for a little bit at the hole with his wife to try to wreck his views? Why would he always go back to that situation?
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Are they sealed now?
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Okay. They could, there's some scissors right there by the lake of sand. If you could open those up, look inside, tell me if you recognize the contents.
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I don't think he wanted to make their first games.
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Now, after the time frame that he returns to live at the Merrill home, were there times that you went over to stay in the shape of residence or in a house then?
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You recognize both?
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What's inside there?
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Both of these are swabs. This one is from the interior of the lower door frame, and then this one is the swabs from the exterior lower door frame.
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Yes, sort of. I didn't stay there. I went to Mr. Merrill's house.
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Are they the same or substantially the same condition as when you collected them from those locations?
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Okay. And what time frame was that for him?
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This time you're on a statement of J and evidence at 16. Any objection? No objection. Were these two exhibits sent to the Foreign Department law enforcement for DNA analysis? Yes. As a crime scene investigator, do you have any involvement whatsoever in the actual DNA analysis? No. Showing you photograph 42 of States 15 again. Did you also examine an area beneath the deck?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Oh, it was in the morning room.
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Okay, but one for me talking about how close it was to his disappearance.
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One time in October and another time on vacation.
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Where were Michael and Lori Shaver when you would go over to check on their house?
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We ended up at the same location. He was a year ahead of me.
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One time they were in Reno, one time they were up in North America somewhere.
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Now I want to take you back to November 15th, specifically November 7th of 2015, which was a Saturday. Were you and Mike working together that day?
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Generally, where did you look?
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So it would be kind of right behind where the stairs are, but underneath where the door is. Okay.
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Did you see him at that?
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Photograph 44 of States 15, what do we see here?
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And where did you see him?
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This is the underside of the porch and this is the area.
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Photograph 45 of States 15, what does this show?
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That is a close-up of the area of the siding and the porch underneath where the slide glass doors are.
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And when you say your families, who from the Shapers was there? What about Torben?
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Okay, let's show you another close-up. Photograph 46 of States 15, what does this show?
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What was your wife saying at that time?
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This just shows some unknown stains that were kind of exposed underneath.
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Now, At the point that you were going over there, was this in the time frame that Mike was looking back at his home?
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And you said there are no saints. At this point, you didn't know what it was, right? Did you use anything like the Blue Star process you described earlier in this? And what happened when you did that?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And how long were you all at this event together?
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Probably 10 o'clock in the morning until about 1 o'clock in the evening.
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Again, there was a small reaction. So that area was eventually swabbed and again, turned in as evidence.
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Did Mike and Lori, with their children, leave before we're founding it? Yes. And it is that 1 o'clock approximately when they left? Yes, sir. Was this the last time you actually saw or spoke with Michael Shaker?
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Again, just because it reacted doesn't necessarily mean it's blood, right?
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But out of an abundance of caution, did you collect the swab?
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The following day, November 8th, did you try to contact him?
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Did you use the same process you just described?
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Showing what's the markings, evidence, and states. I for identification. Do you recognize that item?
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And why were you trying to contact him?
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He was working on something like guns, and he had some problems to work with, and so I asked if I had gotten the correct items.
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And how do you recognize it?
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This has the case number, my initials, and the date and the description of the item.
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And this item that you got, what was it?
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It was a gun balloon kit.
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Is it also sealed? Yes. Then you open it up and look inside and tell me if you recognize the contents.
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And did he specifically tell you to get that particular type of balloon kit?
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What's inside?
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No, that's why I was touching to ask him if I had gotten what he wanted.
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That would be the swabs from the underside of the note.
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Are they in the same institution, the same condition as when you collected them that day?
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And did he ever respond?
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My name is Brian Douglas Shaver. I was the brother of Michael Douglas Shaver.
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And was that unusual that you would reach out to him and that he wouldn't respond?
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It's time to stand by and evidence of Saints 18. Objection. And was this item as well sent to the Foreign Department Law Enforcement for further DNA analysis?
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Now the following day, Monday, November 9, 2015, did you try to contact him?
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Yes, it was.
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And how did you try to contact him that day?
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Again, you had no involvement in that process? No. We direct your attention to January 17th of 2019. Did you and crime scene investigator Jessica Beard, now Jessica Holcomb, go to the Lake County Sheriff's Office evidence location, I guess, for lack of a better word, and process an item collected in this case?
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Through text.
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And did you receive a response?
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Was that response, were you still asking about his
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How he was doing with the gun, or what was the, what were you... No, his only response to me was he needed to quit his job to save his marriage.
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Okay. But you and Mike worked the same shifts? Yes. What was the next day that Michael Shaver was scheduled to work?
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June 8th, June 9th.
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What did you process?
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All right, would that be November 10th?
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You'll hear from Corey Letso, another friend and co-worker of Mr. Shaver. They also worked together on Spaceship Earth, and he was also supposed to go to this worked Thanksgiving get-together at the Shaver residence. Mr. Letso will tell you that after the weekend of November 7, 2015, he never saw or personally spoke to Michael Shaver. You'll hear from Michael Shaver's family.
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We processed the tarp.
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Which tarp?
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The tarp that was removed from the excavation site.
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All right. What was the shift that you both worked?
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And what was your purpose? What were you looking for in processing the tarp?
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11 at 9, but except there he didn't work.
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We were looking for any kind of potential damage to the tarp and or bodily fluids of any kind.
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Is that referred to as the third shift? Yes. Did Michael Schaefer appear at work that day?
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And are you his older brother or younger brother?
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The next day that he was scheduled, was that the following day, November 11? Yes. Once again, third shift?
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Where did you do this examination considering the tarp is pretty big?
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We had to use the vehicle processing bay at the sheriff's office.
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And did he come to work that day?
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What did you do? I'm assuming you didn't just throw the tarp on the floor and start looking. What did you do to ensure that the tarp would maintain a clean area and things like that?
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November 12, were you both scheduled to work?
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I'm the oldest.
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And did he come in on November 12? Some point during this time where Michael is not coming from work and his manager, John Borglum, pranks you to try to get some information from you. Yes. And what type of information was he trying to get?
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We placed a brand new clean tarp that was larger than this particular tarp underneath so that we could then do what we needed to do to process it.
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How much older?
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He was looking for a phone number to make sure he had the correct number to call.
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Joan, you photographed 47 estates 15. What do we see here?
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That is the tarp that was from the excavation site opened up and placed on top of the larger tarp.
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After he did not come to work for those three days, did you take any other efforts to try to check in on Mr. Shaver and check on his whereabouts? Yes. What did you do?
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What did you do to examine that tarp or process it?
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I'm actually 13 years older than Michael was.
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We visually examined it, and then we also used an alternate light source on it.
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I went to the family home early morning after work.
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Explain what that is.
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The alternate light source has several different wavelengths of light that are used, and you can use different colored filters such as orange, red, or yellow to then enhance the fluorescence that may be given off if there are any fluids exposed.
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And while you were there, did you see Mr. Shaver?
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Did you make contact with Laurie?
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Did you ask him about Michael? Yes. And what did she tell you?
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She said she lives in Georgia.
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And why did she say that she thought he was an importer?
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She had sent his sister-in-law, Judge, from Jackson. Sent a signboard. Thank you.
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And what were the results of the analysis after you used that alternate light source?
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They were presumptively positive.
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Were you still living in the home when he was born?
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And where are you?
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Did you, at some point, you said earlier that the tarp was divided up and cut up into sections?
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North McConnell.
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Another person that you all work with?
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I didn't work with him. He worked with Mike through the apprenticeship.
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Why was that done?
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We separated it into quadrants, basically, so we could further analyze it and know which section we were working with.
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Let me ask a better question. Did Roderick Mercado also work in Dissing? Yes. When Michael would go to work, did he drive his own vehicle?
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When you were examining the tarp, did you locate any defects or damage to it?
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And have you seen that vehicle? Yes. Was that vehicle present at the Schaefer residence while you were there? Yes. And did it have a flat tire? Yes. But was this the same vehicle that Vitae took to work the previous week? Yes. Now, while you were there, did Lori Shaver describe any sort of arguments that she had had with Michael before she claims you up? Yes. And what was that already about?
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In how many different places did you find that there was a defect or some kind of damage?
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There were two locations that we noted.
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Showing you photograph 48 of States 15. What do we see here?
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In this one, in the upper left corner here, we have a little bit of a tear.
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Yes, I was.
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Was there a period of time where you grew up together?
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Is your job as a crime scene investigator just basically to document what you see and any kind of anomaly?
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Okay. Photograph 50 of States 15. What does this show?
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Yeah, it was about, uh, she had the, um, Kendall's phone number inside of his phone, and he had already erased it.
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This one shows that there's a small defect as well, right here towards the center of this image.
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Now, after this interaction at Michael's home, did you try to contact him? Yes. How did you try to contact him?
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Is that a different defect than the one we just looked at in the previous startup?
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Okay. Photograph 51, what does it show?
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That just shows a close-up of the defect that we found in the other spot.
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I tried to go through the textbooks.
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How long is that apprenticeship?
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I noticed there's a marker there that says interior. What does that mean, and how did you know that's the interior?
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Did you also try physically calling him? Yes. When you would call him, did anyone ever answer that number? And when you would text, were you getting any sort of response? Sometimes. During the time frame that the responses that you got in text, was the tone and the way those texts were sent to you that different than messages you had received from Mr. Schaefer in the past? Yes, sir.
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So this was labeled as the interior side because this is the side that was ultimately wrapped around the remains, so we're calling that the interior, and then the other side from the deadfall, the exterior.
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No, my parents got divorced when I was about 15 years old, so Michael was only a couple years old. We spent a lot of summers and Christmas breaks and stuff like that together, but not really under the same roof.
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In photograph 52 of states 15, what does this show?
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How so? I stole a word and it was in his joking self.
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That shows the exterior side, so the opposite side of the previous image.
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Now, between the time you last saw Michael Schaefer in November and mid-December of 2013, did you have any other contact before?
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Did you separate this area of the tarp from the rest of it?
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And what was the point? Why would you do that?
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We did that just so that it could be analyzed if it needed to be without sending the entire tarp.
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And did she tell you about various items of mites that she had sold? Yes. What items of mites had she sold at that point?
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I'm showing you states of the two already on evidence. Yes, that's the piece of tarp. That same day, did you also examine the piece of laminate flooring that we looked at earlier that was taken from the fire pit?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She had sold his activities, his tools, his everything. Okay.
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And when you talk about his tools, were you talking about the tools at CISI or tools that he had at the home? Tools he had at home. And did she tell you how much she got for these items? Yes. And how much was that? And did you ask her if she was going to send any of that money to Mike? No. Did you ask her if she was sending any of the money? No.
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What did you do to examine it?
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We also did the alternate light source on it.
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And what did that show?
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That showed a possible result as well.
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Was that item also sent to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to be further examined?
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Thank you. No other questions, Your Honor. All right. Thank you, Mr. Wiggs. Yes, ma'am. Please, the court.
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Yes, sir. You can stop now if you don't want. Please, ma'am. I'm looking at this. How's my address? Japanese or investigation?
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Did she mention any other property of Mike's that she was trying to sell?
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You'll hear from his father, Duth Shaver, his brother, Brian Shaver, Christine Hort, his sister, Desiree Snyder, his niece, Stacey Turner, his sister. And they'll explain to you that they had contact with Michael Shaver over the years to varying degrees and varying frequencies. But following November of 2015, none of those family members ever saw or personally spoke to Michael Shaver.
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What was that?
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She said that Michael had contacted her and wanted her to sell one of his rifles to somebody he knew.
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Investigation.
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Okay. Thank you. Okay. This was the green sign that you proposed, over to the correct?
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Were you familiar with his various firearms? So. How were you familiar with the firearms?
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Okay. Did you take any measurements from the residence to the gravesite?
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Him and I looked at them mostly when we had some conversation.
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I did not personally, but somebody did, yes.
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It's a four-year apprenticeship.
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Okay. Do you have any personal knowledge of the distance before you did?
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After she told you that these firearms were going to be for sale, did she ask you, do I need the firearms?
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Okay. You still put about number 5, you thought some initials in there, correct?
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She asked me to go into the house and make sure all the chambers were clear. And did you do that?
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What were those initials specifically?
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It's a T with the plus sign and a L, and then right above it is the shape of a heart.
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Like Travis, Thomas, Lori?
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So after the time frame that... Yes, I went with my father and he stayed with my mother. And during the holidays and summers after that, is that what you're talking about?
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Presumably.
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Okay. So somebody had invented their name in this concrete, correct?
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Were you interested in buying them?
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At some point.
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I wanted to buy them.
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Yes. In perpetuity, just fresh to the world, correct?
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Mr. Merritt, please get closer to the microphone. Electronic court reporting is having some difficulty picking you up, so please get as close as you can and speak up to the best of your ability. Yes, sir.
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Not before identification. I would imagine, yes.
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Not a secret. Somebody evident who was trying to keep, correct?
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Didn't appear so, no, sir.
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Okay. You've spoken about this area, I believe. You had run a ground-fenetrating device on there.
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Why were you interested in purchasing these firearms?
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I'm a firearm enthusiast, and I wanted to hold them in case Mike came back and wanted them. I could sell them back to him.
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Yes. Correct.
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And, you know, between that area and there was nothing. Correct.
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Were you planning on selling them back to him at the price that you paid?
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Yeah, he could just pay me back. It'd be fine. $2,000. Did she accept that? No.
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So that was a mess. Correct, you would say?
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It's just part of the process.
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Did she ever contact you about the guns again?
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Okay. The fact that the ground may have... an indenture in a dark spot or a lighter spot doesn't necessarily signal that guy or anybody that this is a binary, correct?
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When was this?
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Nearing Christmas, probably a week or two before Christmas that same year.
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Did she tell you anything about her efforts to dispose of those guns?
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Not necessarily, no. Okay.
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Yeah, she said she sold them for $4,300 and that she got to keep two.
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So if we heard testimony earlier that there was an indenture in the concrete, that wouldn't necessarily signal the world that there's a binary there. Would you agree?
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While this is going on, are you trying to reach out and get in touch with Michael Shaver about these firearms?
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Not necessarily.
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And did you receive any responses from the number previously associated with this?
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Okay. And then there's... topical of this site from a look at the film on the left in fact we see more than one dark area correct yes and under those dark areas there was just one body okay correct correct and would you agree with me the body was not located in the center of the patio itself sure but let's talk about A little bit about the distance, the depth of this screen.
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Eventually, yes.
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What response did you get from Mike about these firearms?
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He had told me that he thought I was trying to steal his guns.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did he reference anything about the price that Fenton Morgan had sold the guns for?
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Now, the tools that you had at Disney, whatever happened to those?
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I have them in my possession.
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And why do you hold on to that?
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Well, they're tools.
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I'm a tool junkie, so... Before Mr. Schaber's body was discovered, was there a purpose of you taking possession?
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You said that it was three feet.
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Yeah, if you ever come back and need his tools, he's a mechanic by trade.
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Once we were completed, yes.
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Okay. How tall are you?
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Now, had you ever socialized at the Shaver residence itself? Yes. When was the last time you were over at that residence, November of 2015, being the time that Mr. Shaver was in here?
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I'm about five foot.
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You're five foot. So if somebody was digging this area and standing in that site, okay, and it's three feet, where's three feet on your body? You're five feet?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It had been Labor Day weekend that year.
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Yeah, so probably about here.
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At that point, was there any sort of fire pit in the backyard?
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Okay, for here. Okay. So the size of the individual would be relative to the ease at which that grade could be done. Would you agree?
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What was back there?
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A duck pond.
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When you talk about the duck pond, what was going on back there?
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That is correct.
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They had some pet ducks, and they were digging a pond so that they could concrete it and have the ducks a place to swim.
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Potentially.
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Would that make sense? Would it not?
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It could be. It depends on what they had available.
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Had the excavation and digging of that duck pond already started?
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Okay. Let's say I have a child. I iterate children, period, and I'm going to take a break. It would be easier for somebody to be tall to take a three foot, uh, edge than somebody that's five feet. Right. Logically. Now, the items that were located in the frame, we're looking at number 49. There were some straps, correct?
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And do you know Lori Shaker? Yes. And you met her through Michael?
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It was some done, yes. The outside perimeter was dug so you could see the outside shape, and that was about it.
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No further questions at this point?
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All right, thank you, Mr. Wiggs.
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Yes, please record.
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Sir, Maury, has your testimony told you that Mike went to his mom's house? No. What's it tell you?
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He went to his sister's house. Sister's house, and where was that?
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And there was a tarp, correct?
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She said it was somewhere in Georgia. Somewhere in Georgia. That's your... Explicit recall, correct? Okay. And you likewise had an explicit recall moment when you said it was probably sometime in the summer that he was living at the airport, correct? Correct. Okay. So you would agree with me. You're not really clear as to the detail about all the conversations and everything that took place.
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And there was, I think, a strap wrench?
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It's part of that strap. I think it was just one long piece.
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Okay, it was a fix to the strap itself?
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It's a final recall.
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Okay. Do you know, do you have any personal knowledge whether or not law enforcement, they took any efforts to... look for do any kind of financial on on anybody's account to see where that may be for just I'm not aware. Okay. I'd have to ask somebody else. Correct. Is that you down in the green stunt there? Yeah. Okay. That's the straps you're talking about, correct?
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Pretty clear. Pretty clear? Okay. When you say you got these writings, okay, Could you show us how you could clarify this one came from Lori Shaven, this one came from Michael, this one came from this location, this came from Michael. Do you know how you could do that?
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Yes, through Michael.
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Okay. You're looking around the shape of residence. Did you find these same or similar straps located anywhere else on the presidential side?
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About when did you first meet Lori?
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I can't do that. I just know it comes from his phone.
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Not to my knowledge, yeah.
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You're not capable of doing that, but you speak, you've spoken on your direct examination as if these things were represented to you. And in fact, you don't know who or where they came from, correct? Came from Michael's number. Michael's number. But you don't know who sent those, do you? No. Okay. Let's be clear on that. Now, you said that you had this relationship with Michael.
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Okay. And you would have noted that or pointed that out otherwise, correct?
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And we see 35 inches, correct?
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It's right at 36th Street.
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That was after they got married. They had moved to Florida. They had moved to Florida on two different occasions. It was the first time that I had actually met her.
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36th Street. Yes. Okay. And you spoke about collection of some DNA, correct? Yes. Yes. And you don't know any results of the DNA analysis?
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They received some messages here and there, maybe by text or some Facebook messages, but never actually had any contact with Michael Schaefer to actually hear his voice and to verify he was alive. The MS will show that was because Michael Schaefer at that time was dead. He was not the one sending Facebook messages and text messages. You'll hear from a man named Scott Amatuccio.
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How often would y'all get together off work? Every couple weeks. Every couple weeks? Okay. How often did you do that every couple weeks?
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Okay. You just submitted it in and went to another person, correct?
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Yes. Okay.
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Looking at there, we have the tarp, correct? Yes.
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Two or three times. Two or three times? Yeah, maybe once a week, maybe once every couple weeks.
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We're looking at that you recovered.
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And then you've made certain notations on this. It says drag, correct? What do you mean by the word drag?
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Two or three times?
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For how long?
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After I had finally met Lori, we started doing things as a family that way.
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Give me a date.
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So with this one, it looks more like it could be consistent with a drag mark across a rough surface.
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Through Michael Shaver, did you ever meet his wife, Maureen Shaver?
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I can't give you a date?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You can't give me a date, okay? Now, between 11-7 in 2015 and 9-15 in 2016, how many times were you at the Shaver residence? A couple times that I went and seen Lori. Okay. That's the date of the information. You witnessed no homicide, did you? No. Okay. You don't know specifically who sent you certain information, do you? No. How well did you know the kids, the children in this relationship?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Ms. Sopter, did you do any testing in this area that you marked as a drag to see if there's any... Uh, for asphalt, porthole, anything were to indicate if that part had been used to drive the body of the residents up to the gravesite?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That would have been beneficial, right?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know what was done, processing-wise, if it went to the state lab or not.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Prior to his death, how often would you talk or speak?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not very well. Okay. Do you know of any health issues of any of the children? No. Okay. Okay. You spoke about, you went to some truck show? Tractor show. Tractor show? Yes, sir. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And there was a hole here. Yes.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It's this going and then the back side of this thing. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So that's where the marks, et cetera, correct? Okay. Thank you. You have a seat. Now, ma'am, in your processing of this site, there was no evidence that was gathered by you or anybody else indicating there was any DNA in this site associated with the washing.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And how long were you there? I was there from around 10 o'clock in the morning to 1 o'clock in the afternoon.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was that a productive relationship? Did it go south, so to speak? What?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm not sure that any DNA was recovered, and if so, I'm not aware.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I can only tell you what he told me, but yeah, eventually it ended.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. You didn't personally recover any that you recall, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It ended, right. Did it ever occur to you some of those emails may have been from Kendall or somebody else? No. Okay, that never occurred to you? No. Okay. You don't know who murdered Michael Shaver, do you?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you know anybody else in the other investigator that processed the scene with you that recovered any DNA?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They actually came to my house in Georgia two or three. Fourth of July, we'd have a cookout and kind of a family get together. And then we'd talk occasionally through telephone call or text.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I believe I did most of the DNA swabs for this case.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there any hair sound in that site?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But you've taken the stand, and you said that Lori Shaver sold some guns, right? Yes. Did you have that on you?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In the site, yes.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. That wasn't mentioned on your correct examination. There were hair sounds, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you know if any of the DNA in those hairs were lapable from Lori Shamer or anybody?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm not aware.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did law enforcement do anything with regards, aside from the tire, to the strap wrench?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know. Does it prove anything? No. Very well. Now, would Mike sometimes drive to work Lori's white truck? Yes. Okay. So we're talking about a truck at the residence that was observed, correct? Yes. But you know Michael was driving Lori's white truck as well, correct? Yes. And any tools that were sold? Do you have any idea how that may be tied to the death of Michael Jaden? No.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not that I'm aware of.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Do you know if they did any investigation, a forensic audit, to look at anybody's accounts to see if anybody had purchased, say, any strap wrenches or straps from a vehicle above?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm not aware, no.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You spoke about laminate, a piece of laminate that was found in the gravesite, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you know if that laminate was laked in any way to the shame of residence?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You know how floor they had in the shame of residence?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Previously, no, sir.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, floor it any time.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you have any knowledge whether or not... Laura, you needed any money when she phoned us?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At the current time, it was tile and then wood laminate in the bedroom.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was it the same type of laminate?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Then we'll thank Sasswood and I, then got them ready to be sold for monetary reasons. Sure. Thank you, sir.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I have no further job. Thank you. Redirect.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I think I asked you this earlier, but if not, I just wanted to make sure. You also processed the heart from the first finger, right? Yes. Did you find any? No. When you and other officers arrived on the scene the first day of the excavation, was Lori Shaver there?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can you direct? Yes, sir. No e-mails. No e-mails. When you went over there and saw Michael Shaver's vehicle at his residence, when you went and checked on him on November 12th, was Lori Shaver's truck also there? Yes.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm assuming she wasn't permitted to walk around the house or walk around the property while you guys were doing your processing, right?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you. All right. And may the witness be excused from his subpoena?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Where was she living?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was told that she was in front of the property sitting in her vehicle.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. Thank you, sir. You're excused from further testimony. Have a good day. I think this would be an appropriate time to break for the day. It's 5.01 p.m.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You remember seeing in one of the aerial photographs? Yes. From her vantage point in that truck, was she able to see the fire pit in the concrete slab?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In 2015, were you living in Georgia then? Yes, I was. And would July of 2015 be the last time that they came to visit you for one of those Fourth of Julys?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I believe so, yes.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He was a close friend of both the defendants and Michael Schaefer's, because they all grew up together. He'll tell you very similar information about not seeing or directly speaking with Michael Shaver after November of 2015. For a several year period of time between November of 2015 into 2018, Mr. Amatuchio eventually realized, I haven't heard from Mike recently.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did she remain on scene for part of the time that you began to process the scene the first day you were there?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At some point, did she leave the area? Yes, she did. Because she was permitted to leave, right?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you remember about what time she left?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It would be probably around 3 o'clock in the afternoon, 2.30, 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At what point in your processing were you focused when she left?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's about the time that we moved from the back pasture area up towards where the fire pit was.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you. Just briefly, Joe. Ma'am, you said you saw Lori sitting in her truck, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you know what time her kids got out of school?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm unaware. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It would make sense that she's there and the kids come back from school. She may need to travel outside, correct? Correct. Okay. She never fled the scene trying to evade law enforcement at any time, correct? No.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Anything further? No, Your Honor. Can you please introduce yourself to the jury?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My name is Dr. Kyle Shaw. Where do you work? I currently work as a forensic pathologist in the upstate area of South Carolina, working for several coroner counties in that area.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What do you do for the coroner county? What do you do on a regular basis?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, it should have been. It was probably around 2012, 2011 or 12. I'm not sure exactly the year.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So I'm a forensic pathologist. My role with the coroner offices is to review cases that are presented to me and provide my opinion of cause and manner of death. In the coroner setting, primarily that involves performing autopsies as part of that process.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Where did you work before you moved?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
at the District 5 Medical Examiner's Office in Leesburg.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What did you do for the District 5 and his office?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was an associate medical examiner, again, working as a forensic pathologist with a similar role, except that I was more directly involved in some of the investigative process and supervising investigators for the office.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We got your attention on March 10th of 2018. Did you perform an autopsy on skeletonized remains recovered in the case of State of Florida v. Lori Shaper? Yes. How did those remains get from the scene to your office?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They were transported by one of our forensic investigators from the scene. She was present during the excavation process, and she brought those to the office.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You personally were not present. You're a medical examiner investigating the place.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Correct. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Where is the medical examiner's office located here in the 5th Circuit? It's in Leesburg, so it's on 809 Pine Street in Leesburg. Is a case number, a medical examiner case number, assigned to each and every autopsy you perform?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
During the sign frame after that 2012 visit up until the sign frame where Mr. Schaefer disappeared, how would you communicate with him?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is that number unique to the individual autopsy? Yes.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was the autopsy number associated with this case? 2018-0428.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is it customary, and it didn't happen in this case, that law enforcement was present during the autopsy? Yes. Okay. Were photographs taken during the course of your autopsy? Yes. Showing you it's been marked as space exhibit S. For identification, see if you can take a look at these images. Only be recognized on them.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. It's photographs as well as an x-ray. Images that were taken at the medical examiner's office during the course of this examination. Not all on the initial day of autopsy. Some are later.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did you ever go over to their house to visit or socialize?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do those sterling actively depict the skeletonized remains as well as some of the evidence that was packaged and things like that? Yes. This is how I'm able to move it. S as in Sam and evidence as 19, Your Honor. Any objection? No. No objection. How were the remains packaged when they arrived in your office?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They originally arrived in a body transport bag as well as some additional bags basically to help contain the smaller bones.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
One of those bags obviously sealed with evidence tape and things like that? Yes. What was the first thing you did when you received the skeletonized remains?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We start taking photographs. So photographs usually precede the examination. And then, of course, additional photographs are often taken during the course of examination. As also part of that process, at least in certain kinds of cases, x-rays will be performed.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In this case, did you lay the various bones out in what would be the anatomical position of the human body?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. During the course of examination, those bones in a skeletal type of case, they get laid out. Showing you photograph one of stage 19.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I know I had a couple phone calls with them, primarily text or Facebook message.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What do we see here?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This is part of the layout of the skeletal remains at the medical examiner's office. So just for orientation, towards the left of the image is the skull, which is on a foam support pad there. And then most of the bones basically going down to about the level of the pelvis. Photograph two, what does this show?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I really haven't heard anything from him. started to get a little bit concerned. So Scott Amatuchio reached out to Michael Shaver's family, who knew him because, again, he grew up with Michael Shaver, and learned that nobody had directly spoken with him or seen him since November 2015. Scott Amatuchio also learned about a concrete slab that had been laid in the back of the Shaver residence.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This is basically working our way down that same set of remains, just looking at a different area. So this goes a little bit lower and includes the pelvis and more of the lower extremities.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And photograph three of stage 19, what do we see here?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Here we see the rest of the lower extremities. So over on the far right of the image, we see a number of small bones, and those are the smaller bones of the ankles and feet.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Were most of the bones that would normally be contained in the human body recovered? Yes. Were any bones missing?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was there a time frame where you just were not able to get in touch?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There were a few small bones predominantly of the hands that were unable to be located, but very few.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The fact that a couple bones in the hand may not have been provided to you would affect your ability to do an autopsy in this case? Not substantially, no. We've heard something about a humerus bone. Where is the humerus bone in the body?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The humerus bone is part of the arm or the upper arm. Basically, it's from where I'm indicating on myself, from the shoulder to the elbow is the humerus bone.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you examine the skull in this case? Yes. What did you do to examine the skull?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So as part of that examination, again, x-rays are performed, images are taken, photographs are taken, and then during the course of that, some cleaning is usually performed. In a case like this, where the specimen or the bones may subsequently go for anthropologic examination, I usually do very little. other than, again, some general cleaning and general examination.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was that?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Probably started in late 2014.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Why would you do very little if they're going to go to be examined via anthropology lab?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So sometimes these bones are very brittle and very delicate. And usually I find that once I'm able to document them, that the anthropologist is more of a specialist specifically in bones. So it's usually valuable for them to see those bones in as pristine a condition as possible. Some usually very delicate with what I do have.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was there a period of time where you started to worry about those wire files?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You mentioned x-rays were taken. What is photographed for a CS19 show?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So this is an x-ray of the skull. Now the lower part of the jaw is absent. It was disarticulated. It's just not in this x-ray. But what we can see is over towards the left and bottom, we see the teeth just for orientation. And then towards the right of the image, So that red dot was just on the teeth. Now, over on the right of the image, there's a bright white spot.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That bright white spot is radiopaque material that corresponds to a projectile or bullet.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, when there was no contact. My mother had gotten sick, was in the hospital. We couldn't get a hold of him to let him know about her sickness.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Tony, you photographed five of State's 19. What do we see here?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So here we see an image of the back of the head or the back of the skull. This has been rotated around so that the top of the skull is down and the bottom of the skull is up. And right in the middle of that image, we can see a round hole, which represents a gunshot wound. In this case, a gunshot wound of entrance.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can you point in your own head generally where that gunshot wound was located?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It's approximately here as I'm indicating on the back of my head.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you locate a projectile inside of the skull?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And explain how you did that.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So the x-ray let me know that it was there. I was then able to carefully basically reach into the skull. We can't see it in this particular image, but the skull is basically sitting on the top of the spine. And the bottom part of the brain transitions into the spinal cord. And where the brain exits the skull and goes down into the spinal column, there's a hole.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, multiple times.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that's called the foreman magnum. And it's on the order of approximately an inch or a little bit bigger in size. So it's a decent sized natural hole in the skull. And I was able to reach in there, feel that bullet, which was loosely adherent, but not firmly adherent. It came loose very easily. And I was able to recover that and retrieve it out of the foreman magnum.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Why would the projectile or the folate actually have a huge skull?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How was the family reaching out to you? let them know about this while they're sick?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So when soft tissue decomposes and begins to dry out, materials sometimes will stick to it. That soft tissue, as it decomposes, forms a little bit of a glue-like substance. So there were just a little bit of residual material. decomposed tissue that had dried around the edges of that bullet and caused it to basically be loosely stuck there.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So it was not rattling around originally, which is why it was first noted on x-ray.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you observe any kind of an exit wound or damage to the opposite side of the inside of the skull as if the bullet entered the skull and hit the opposite side?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And he became concerned. Because of this concern, Scott Amatuchio reached out to the Lake County Sheriff's Office and asked that they go to the Shaver residence, somebody from law enforcement, go to that Shaver residence and try to make contact with Michael Shaver if he was there, find out what's going on with Michael Shaver. I don't know his name.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So although there were some fractures of the skull, there was no impact site that I was able to identify, nor that the anthropology report anthropologists subsequently reported. There was no exit wound and there was no obvious impact site. Once you recovered a projectile out of the skull, what did you do with it? That was packaged up and turned over to law enforcement.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We called, text, Facebook message, Facebook, you know, on the wall, whatever you want to call it, and tried to call, like say, and left voicemails, but there was ever no return.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing you what's been marked as evidence of state security. The M is in man. Look inside. Tell me if you recognize the contents.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So within this envelope is a bullet or projectile. It appears to be substantially the same as the projectile that I recovered in March of 2018.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And I'm also showing you photographs of States 19. Is that a picture that you took of the projectile you removed? Yes. This time, the state would move states M as in married into events of states 20. You said, obviously, the projectile would have entered through the back of the skull.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can you, beyond the projectile traveling back to front, are you able to determine the path of travel with any other specificity?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not definitively. One thing to kind of keep in mind when we're doing these examinations is that a bullet, a typical bullet, has two main profiles. The bullet is a little bit elongated and tends to have a rounded tip, like a little bit of a cone or a rounded cone shape. So when that bullet is facing directly at you, the profile is round.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When it is off center or tangential at an angle, so we have perpendicular and we have a little bit of an angle to perpendicular. As it rotates away from perpendicular, it takes on more of an oblong or ovoid shape. So when that bullet enters the skin or skull,
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When we have a round hole that tells us that the deviation is not dramatic from perpendicular, from a right angle, because if it is a fairly dramatic angle, then we have normally an oblong or irregular skull entrance. In this case, the skull entrance is rounded.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In November of 2015, what kind of vehicle did you have?
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And what period of time was that?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
However, because of the absence of the brain, in other words, I can't see the path of the bullet through the brain because there's no brain left, I can't say that it was perfectly perpendicular when it entered, only that there's no clear evidence that it was at a sharp or distinctly sharp angle away from 90 degrees.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I really don't recall on that. Probably close to six months.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
During your examination of the skull, did you locate any other evidence in the brain?
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Yes. So the X-ray also shows a few very small pieces or radiopaque fragments. Basically, fragments that show up the density of metal, which are typical. It's typical for a projectile to break off a little bit or small pieces. So there were additional pieces noted on X-ray.
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Did you do anything with those additional pieces that were noted?
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They appeared to be firmly embedded either in the bone or on the inside of the skull, so my options would have been to either try to open the skull to get at those, which would have deviated that skull from so-called pristine, or at least in the condition that I had it, and I wanted anthropology to look at that first.
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I also asked him to take a look at that concrete slab in the back where there was now a fire pit, same place that duck pond was supposed to be. So based on the information received by Scott Antuccio, Lake County Sheriff's Office became involved.
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What year are we talking about?
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Would it be common that if the anthropology lab noticed that, they would, when they were finished, remove those items and send them back to you? Yes. Did you locate any finger or toenails in the remains that were provided to you? Yes. Show me photograph 7 of States 19. What does this show?
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However, suspicions grew when family and friends reported him missing in 2018, leading investigators to uncover the truth. Laurie Shaver was charged with second-degree murder in connection with her husband's death. This episode presents a condensed version of her trial, edited for clarity and length. The opening statement from the prosecution begins at after 30 seconds of progress.
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I believe it was 2015, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
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That is a sampling of fingernails or toenails that were recovered from the body bag, from the materials that were provided.
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Photograph 8 of States 19. What does that show?
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Additional fingernails or toenails that were recovered.
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And did you package those fingernails and toenails up in the two bags we've seen in the picture?
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Joey, you want us to mark the states to the foe for identification? Can you open that up, look inside, tell me if you recognize the packages?
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Sure. So within our dry material that appears to be the same or substantially the same fingernail, toenails in one of them, As well as the second one.
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This time, state would move states O into evidence as 21, Your Honor. Any objection? No objection. Now, Doctor, in case I asked a bad question earlier, you mentioned that you found the projectile that you recovered as well as some projectile fragments that were embedded in his skull. Yes. You're not saying that those are from two separate projectiles, are you?
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When you respond to any of that?
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Correct. It's consistent with just being from a single projectile. The projectile that was recovered is partly deformed. And during the course of deformation, it is possible that a portion of that metal broke off during the course of entering the skull or impacting the skull.
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And have you seen or spoken to Michael?
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Is it common for when a projectile hits the heart of it, like a skull or two fragments? Yes. Okay. You've seen that a lot of times in your career. Many, many times, yes. You mentioned the anthropology lab a few minutes ago. Were these human remains that were brought to the medical examiner's office packaged up and sent to an anthropology lab? Yes.
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Well, I received some text messages or no, let me rephrase that. I received some Facebook messages from what I believe was Michael. But but, you know, at the time, we didn't know he was missing. And, you know, I assumed that it was him.
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And how were they packaged up and how were they sent?
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So originally they were packaged March 22nd of 2018. They were transported up by Investigator Griffiths. Later that day, still on March 22nd, the lab contacted us back and said that a femur was available to be returned to us.
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On February 16th of now, 2018, Deputy Corey Anderson from the Lake County Sheriff's Office went out to the property and made contact with the defendant, Lori Shaver. Deputy Anderson asked about Michael Shaver, asked about, where's your husband? The defendant said that she and Michael Shaver were separated, that he picked up and left, and that she had no idea where he was.
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into the femur in a second. Where was this lab located that the remains are transported to?
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The lab is associated with the University of Florida, so they're in Gainesville.
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You mentioned the term pound lab. What is that?
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So it often just gets called the, quote, Pound Lab, but it's the C.A. Pound Human Identification Laboratory. So it's sometimes also called Cap Hill, but it is a lab that is associated with the University of Florida.
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And they do their own analysis.
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You're not a part of that. That's correct. We provide them information that we have, the investigative information that we have, and we'll discuss the case. But they do their own analysis of the bones themselves.
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You said a few minutes ago that the pound lab people sent you back the femur.
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Yes. First of all, what's a femur? So a femur is the major bone of the thigh. So between the hip and the knee, that big bone is called a femur. And what was the purpose of you getting the femur back? So the plan at that time was to take that bone, release it to law enforcement, and law enforcement would then send it to a laboratory for DNA analysis, mainly for identification purposes. Excuse me.
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Is the femur a good source of DNA for some reason?
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It is a common source, and the longer that a skeleton has been out, the more bone sometimes is needed to do an analysis. Now, I don't perform those analyses, so I can't comment on exactly what they need, but it is common for them to ask for either a piece of bone or the entire bone.
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And again, they usually have better results if they're able to look at the entire bone and not have to go back and forth with us to get more bone later.
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3C18 is the Pound Lab case number for this case.
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Did you eventually get a report from the Pound Lab? Yes. Did it have that same case number on it? Yes. Did the report also mention the femur was returned to your office? Yes. Does all that documentation clearly indicate the femur returned to you was the same femur that you sent to them?
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Yes. Okay.
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Photograph 15 of States 19.
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What does this show? So this is that femur outside of the bag. The bag was open for us to take additional photos. Again, just documenting that it was in the same condition that it was when we had released it the previous, two days earlier, I believe.
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Anything about the messages that caught your sort of concern?
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Now, to your knowledge, was this femur sent to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement for analysis? That is my understanding, yes. Was it eventually returned back to your office, the medical examiner's office? Yes. Does that box look familiar? Yes, it does. You open it up, look inside, tell me if you recognize the contents.
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I had a gray Explorer.
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Yes, it appears to be, again, with four areas that have been cut into for the purposes of DNA.
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I'm Stacey. Stacey is in a P, isn't Paul, and the evidence is 22.
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No objection. So this is the femur, the front part of the femur, the back part of the femur, and we can see an area that's been cut away in the ball or head of the femur, an area here on the proximal shaft of the upper part, an area on the distal shaft down here, and an area down here basically at the knee.
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And then those areas were present when you first saw the femur, correct? Correct. Not like those were caused by some type of trauma or gunshot wound or anything? Correct. Okay. Thank you. Did the medical examiner's office eventually receive all of the bones and the human remains back at your office from the pallet lab? Yes, we did.
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No, not at the time. All right. Sidebar, please.
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You mentioned earlier that during your x-ray you saw those projectile fragments from that projectile embedded in the skull immediately with them. Correct. Were those fragments removed by the anthropology lab and sent back to you? Yes. During the course of your autopsy, did you examine all of the bones that were provided to you? Yes. except for that single gunshot wound to the back of the skull.
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Anything about the tone or tenor of those responses?
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Did you locate any other trauma to either the skull or any other bones you examined?
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Not that would be considered trauma at or around the time of death, what we call perimortem trauma. There was some damage to some of the ribs. However, that was interpreted as post-mortem trauma.
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Based on Scott Amachuccio's concerns about this concrete slab where the duck pond is going to be in the back, Deputy Corey Anderson asked permission to go and take a look around the property. The defendant allowed that. Deputy Anderson got to the area where this concrete slab was located, And he noticed something unusual about that slab.
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After death?
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Meaning after death.
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So did you locate any evidence of a chip or a break in any of the other bones as a result of trauma, either a struck or another gunshot wound or something like that? No. You mentioned that there were some fractures in the skull around that gunshot entrance wound. Were those fractures caused by that single gunshot wound entrance? Yes.
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We see on TV, CSI, that having to be from CSI can tell you that these phones were buried on this date, this month, this year. Is that real? No, unfortunately. Are you able to do that? No. Are you able to determine, and with great generality, when, based on the condition of the bones, they would have been buried?
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No, there was one particular one that, you know, I assume that it was him because there was nothing evident at the time that he had asked for my mother's phone number, our mother's phone number, and said that he had tried to get a hold of her. It was after much after she was sick. And asked me if it had changed. And I texted back and said no, that it hadn't changed.
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To a very limited extent, with very broad potential ranges.
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What are those ranges or parameters?
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Well, again, it depends on the individual case. So in this particular case, I would have to depend really on the anthropology examination because they deal with primarily bones. Is that a question to ask them? It probably would be a better question to ask them because they can go into detail as to how they came to that.
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Fair enough. Did you determine the cause of death in this case? Yes. What was the cause of death of Michael Shaver?
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In my opinion, gunshot wound of head. What did you determine the manner of death to be? In my opinion, homicide. Thank you, doctor. That's no question, sir.
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Mr. Wiggs. Yes, may it please the court. Yes, sir. Good afternoon, Dr. Shah. Afternoon. Pleasure seeing you. You too. Recall me taking your deposition some time ago? I do. Okay. We did that by Zoom, I believe, correct? Yes. Okay. And at that time, I gained certain information from you. And part of that information I was able to glean.
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Was it not that you rely on multiple sources to conduct an investigative autopsy such as this?
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Sure. As part of the process of coming to an opinion of cause and manner of death, I piece together lots of information from lots of different sources. Part of that is the autopsy, but there are other things.
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You use reports such as... Police reports, incident reports, correct? When those are available, yes, or discussions with law enforcement. Okay, so you usually look to law enforcement. You have somebody inside doing investigative work, correct?
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When you say inside, you mean inside the... Medical examiner's office. That's correct. So the medical examiner's office itself, we have our own investigators that do investigation as well. Okay.
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And you rely on other reports generated in other agencies, such as the pound, as you discussed in this case, correct?
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Sometimes, yes, certainly, as it applies to this case.
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So it's not just your opinion you're relying on. You're relying on the opinions and conclusions of other individuals, correct?
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Correct. I bring together as much information as I possibly can to reach my opinions and my conclusions.
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That's just a yes or no question. You rely on other people's conclusions as well.
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I also rely on additional information. It's not always their conclusions, but it's sometimes their interpretations.
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You rely on dental examinations, FDLE reports, correct? For certain parts of the investigation, yes. We know you relied on other documents and reports in this case, correct?
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He noticed that there was a depression in that concrete slab, the place where that slab was sagging into the ground. Deputy Anderson knew that when a body is buried and a body is decomposing, that decomposition process eventually leaves a void for where that body was located, which causes depression.
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Yes, there were additional reports that were generated in this case that... Again, add into the totality of the information for the case. Okay.
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We know it takes you about an hour or so to do one of these investigations, correct?
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About an hour or so to do the autopsy or the physical examination of the bones. And it varies a good bit depending on the nature of the case. But for an examination of bones, it might take on the order of an hour, especially if they are already clean and dry. Okay. An hour or two, correct? Roughly, yes.
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And gave the phone number again just to make sure that he had the correct one. But that was kind of, I think that was the last communication I had.
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That's a fair statement. Sure. And in this case, when you received the bones... that you did this autopsy upon, they were in a skeletal state, correct? Yes. There was no soft tissue on the body, correct? Correct. The internal organs had deteriorated, correct? Correct. So any injuries to the internal organs were not visible, correct? Correct, because those organs were no longer present.
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They had decomposed. Correct. So you don't know the degree of any combat or any altercation that occurred by looking at other evidence, correct?
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Correct. Correct, in the sense that there is no soft tissue to examine in this case. Correct.
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In November of 2015, did you ever go pick Michael Shaver up from his home and take him anywhere so he can leave his family?
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Now, you'd spoken about the gunshot entry wound. Where was that located? And approximately the middle of the back of his head. Okay. And it's my understanding from our previous discussions, you were unable to determine whether the person was sitting or standing, correct? Correct. You weren't able to line up and figure out where not anybody had approached the subject, correct?
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Is it fair to say that your contact with your father over the years was not frequent?
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Correct. Correct. Those are issues of the circumstances of the death, and there's no anatomic finding that tells me in this case his position.
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You weren't able to discern the height of the individual that had engaged Mr. Shaver, correct? Correct. Was the skeleton in full state, or were there broken portions of it? It was almost complete, but it was disarticulated.
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Did you reconstruct the skull? The skull was actually almost completely intact. There were fractures, but it had not come apart at that point. During the examination at the Pound Lab, there was some separation of those fracture lines, but it was almost complete to my recollection.
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There may have been some small pieces above the orbits on the inside that were absent, but the majority, certainly the outer part of the cranium was almost complete.
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How many was in evidence? I think it was 43, correct?
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Are those the fragments that you testified to?
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No, I'd say it was more occasional than frequent.
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These are the additional small fragments that were recovered by the Pound Lab. And those were located in what portion of the body? In the skull. Okay. Do you know where in the skull? I do not know precisely where. The x-rays showed one fragment that was most likely adhered to the inner table, but there was a fragment that was very close to the entrance wound.
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I'd have to refer to their report for exactly where they recovered that fragment. So the particle of radiopaque material that they ultimately recovered was was associated with the entrance defect. So it's basically right at that entrance fracture. Basically a portion of the projectile split off and basically went into the bone as it was entering the skull.
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And the various occasional responses that you and other family members may have received in 2015, 2016, through Facebook or other sources such as that, did that alleviate initial concerns that something was wrong with Michael?
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There was no soft tissue in the neck, correct? Correct. There was no analysis of any entry potential through the neck region, correct? Not through the soft tissue because there was no soft tissue to examine. The bones, however, were... Were there any meteorological tests done on the metal itself to connect it to the remaining fragment?
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Not by me. Okay.
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Basically, those fragments are turned over to law enforcement for any... Do you know whether or not you received any report data dealing with that subject?
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Seeing this depression in the concrete, combined with the concerns of Scott Amatuchio, and now thinking this could be a grave, Deputy Anderson became more suspicious. He actually took out his phone, took a couple pictures of this depression. He then went and provided this information to other detectives at the Lake County Sheriff's Office. He reported what you found in all this information.
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I did not receive any report data to my recollection. I have not been presented any such report. However, we normally wouldn't get such a report if such existed. Okay.
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So when you say that the death was caused by homicide and it was caused by one womb, you're unable to testify with all certainty whether or not there was any other injury to any internal organ or an entrance through a neck or another region through soft tissue, correct?
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Yes. Correct. So if there was an additional injury or injuries that were solely through soft tissue and did not involve bone, then I would have no way of knowing about those. Very well.
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This may sound kind of a silly proposition in one respect, but when you do an autopsy, you don't have particularly absent any bones. brain or other soft tissue in the body, you don't know whether or not this man was suffering from any kind of psychological issues, correct?
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So even during a regular autopsy, generally, we cannot infer a psychiatric illness from the autopsy findings alone. That depends on the preceding history, medical history or other history that would give us most of that information. We can infer some an element of brain damage, but that's not the same as saying someone has a psychiatric disorder.
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So really, the autopsy is limited to the physical structure. It doesn't entertain any consideration about the circumstances how the individual was shot, correct?
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There's more than one component here. So the autopsy itself, yes. We're looking at the anatomic or physical findings. And sometimes we can correlate those with history and circumstances or scene findings and those kinds of things. But the autopsy itself is focused primarily on gathering anatomic physical data that we can then look at and try to correlate with the remainder of the case.
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And in the report that you constructed in this case, there's a section that deals with death information. And I think it was noted visual, correct? I'm sorry, could you... The date of death. It was just defined really based on information other people had supplied, correct?
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Not to me, because I felt that there was communication, even though it was very limited, that kind of took the worry that something was wrong. Nothing further, sir.
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So there is no specific date of death on the autopsy report. Instead, we have what's called a date found. So that's the date he was actually located. Now, you may be referring to the investigator's report, which may have a date of death present. Any such date. In fact, it has the, again, when he was originally found as the date of death being March 9th, 2018. So that's date found.
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That's not intended to be the date. It's not an opinion of when he actually died. There were no burn marks on the body or the structure, correct?
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Not that I identified, no. Indicating it had been in a fire, correct? Correct. Was there any evidence that the body had been moved?
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The fact that the body was recovered buried is an indication that the body had been moved at some point. However, it's also true that it's possible that he received his fatal injury while within the grave somehow. But those findings are really based on the totality of the circumstances, not just the anatomic findings. So you can't tell where Mr. Shaver was shot? Correct.
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I can't tell where he was physically located at the time that he was shot. Okay.
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Now, was there any in your report, any indication of any injuries or damage to the teeth of Michael Shaver? To the teeth?
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Right. Not to my recollection, but I will look through the odontology report briefly. There was no noted perimortem injury. There were evidence of restorations or dental work that had been done, and some of the teeth were missing. However, no known perimortem injury.
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Mr. Wigg, Mr. Shaver, have you ever been to your brother's house?
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On March 9th of 2018, law enforcement obtained a search warrant. And the search warrant is basically a document assigned by a judge that allows law enforcement to go to a location and search and collect certain evidence.
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Okay, so there were some teeth missing, correct? Yes. You know, they've been broken, moving the body, post-mortem, pre-mortem?
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Again, I am referring to the odontology and anthropology reports that also involve the teeth. I would have to review the photographs to say as to which were missing post-mortem versus which were missing anti-mortem. Basically, the difference there is that if a tooth goes missing or falls out or gets knocked out, say, years before death, then the bone tends to heal over.
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and there's no socket left. Whereas if the bone falls out at the time of death or after, then there's an empty socket there. It is very, very common for teeth to fall out in the decomposition or skeletonized stage because there's no soft tissue still holding those teeth in place. So a little bump sometimes can knock those loose.
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No, sir, I have not.
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Never even been there?
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Could they be loosened or knocked out, transported in the body? It's possible. Okay.
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And were there any missing teeth or damaged teeth? Not injured or damaged teeth that I noted that would be considered perimortem injury around the time of death. No, this is the Pound Lab report.
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So when we talk about communications, we're not talking about many communications, are we?
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Do they indicate or is there any indication there of any damage to any teeth? I'm just going to read the page that you presented to me. Let me look, direct your attention. to your deposition instead. Sure. Okay. Page 45. Watch your look on line 25.
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Okay. Is that refreshing, like I said?
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So just reading from that, line 25 says absence of teeth number 1, number 16, number 17, and number 32 due to loss slash extraction or agenesis, meaning, just for interpretation, that those were removed or absent well before death. And just looking just above that, I was referencing the anthropology report. So it's in there somewhere.
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So there's some missing teeth, though, correct? Sure. When you use the word postmortem, you're talking about after death, correct? Yes. Okay. Did you assess that issue and reach any conclusions whether there was any postmortem damage to the body or injuries?
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I mean, telephone and, I mean, visits.
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So based on the authority given by the search warrant, law enforcement, detectives, crime scene investigators went out to the Shaver residence to search for evidence related to the disappearance of Michael Shaver. Crime scene investigators trained in the collection of evidence and trained in the collection and excavation of human remains went out to the scene.
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There were some injuries to the ribs that were postmortem. Again, I depend largely on the anthropology report for that. Tell me what the post-mortem injury to the ribs was. So I'm turning to page 4 of 23 of the anthropology report. At the bottom of that page, there's a section called post-mortem damage. And within that, they describe post-mortem breakage of multiple ribs.
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Yeah. Did you call Lori Shaver? No.
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I can read that report if you'd like me to.
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I have you that position here.
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Okay. Okay.
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If you'd like to refresh your red and black, stop page 40 cents. Line 8, 9, and 10.
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So reading from the highlighted section of 8, 9, and 10, quote, it says there is post-mortem breakage on multiple nine ribs, comma, okay. Oh, wait, that's your question. That was the question from you. My answer was yes.
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So there was entry to the ribs after that? Yes. Correct? Yes. And that post-mortem injury to the ribs, could that be associated with transporting the body from one location to another?
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Never thought to pick up a phone and call her? No. You stated this surfaced around 2014?
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So the interpretation or the determination of whether an injury is post-mortem or not depends on a few different things. I largely would depend on the anthropology consultant to address those issues. But the most common finding that I see that distinguishes an anti-mortem or perimortem injury from a clearly post-mortem injury is a difference in coloration of the break.
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So if an injury occurs around the time of death, then the surface of the broken bone, so the broken edge, will have basically the same coloration as the rest of the surface of the bone because it's going through the same process. It's being exposed to the same environment. Whereas a bone that fractures post-mortem or well after that, is usually a lighter color because it's cleaner.
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It hasn't been exposed to the same processes. It hasn't been exposed to the elements the same way or the decomposition process the same way. However, in this particular case, again, I would depend on the anthropologist to distinguish precisely what they meant by the postmortem breaks.
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They do describe within their report that the margins of at least some of the breaks are lighter in color than the surrounding bone. So for this to occur during the manipulation phase or the phase of moving a body, it would most likely be well after death. In other words, far enough after death for there to be a difference in the environmental exposure.
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I believe so.
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Okay. And how long did this go on before you thought something may be up?
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So probably not hours, but probably a much longer time frame. Okay. Would it create a difference in the color of the ribs? if that post-mortem interval is long enough before that secondary post-mortem break occurs.
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And there was damage to the sternal ends of the ribs as well as to 4, 8, 18, and 10, correct? Right ribs 4, 8, and 10, yes. Okay. And in examination of the body and the records, you discovered that the body had what are referred to as buckle fractures, correct? Correct.
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And with the use of some ground penetrating radar, their focus quickly turned to this concrete slab with a fire pit and where there was a depression in that concrete. Had some heavy equipment was brought in to dismantle that fireplace and to break up that concrete slab to give them access to the dirt beneath the concrete slab. And that excavation process began.
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During my review of the anthropology report, they described that, yes.
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And a buckle fracture is where one side of the rib breaks or fractures and not the other, correct? That's my understanding, yes. Yeah, where the body would be of this, the ribs would be of the same tension or tenderness, correct, throughout.
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But basically means that one, there's two sides of a rib and one side buckles or fractures, whereas the other side doesn't show anything. And that usually occurs at the time or about the time of death, correct?
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I mean, when the communications stopped, we began to really worry that what happened to him. Where did he go? Did he disappear? Did something bad happen to him?
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Again, although that usually is the case, in this particular case is interpreted by the anthropologists, again, depending on their report, that because the fracture margins are a different color, they interpreted that as post-mortem.
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Does the composition of the soil impact any coloration of the bones?
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Although I believe it can, I'd have to defer to the anthropologist on that question.
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Have you ever seen a body in one soil and it ingrains within it or pulls within the bone itself the composition of the soil, creating the coloration in the bones themselves?
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I would only speak to coloration, not to composition.
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That's what I mean.
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But yes, you know, coloration, if the surface color of the bone is generally going to be closer to the surface color of the soil that's on it. However, there's a lot of different things that can potentially go into that and alter those things.
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Well, you receive reports from other agencies, police reports and the pound and FDLA, etc. Did you receive any reports? from FDLE analyzing any soil compounds?
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Did you ever take him to Georgia and drop him off anywhere up there?
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How long? What was that period of time that you said, hey, maybe we need to do something?
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I was not presented with a report when these materials were provided to me later. I received these materials after I moved on from the District 5 Medical Examiner's Office. Okay.
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And it's your position that the body may have been dead for months to several years, correct?
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I would defer to the anthropologist in that case. However, for an individual to be completely skeletonized and dry, normally that would be at least several months, if not longer, from my personal experience.
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Did you ever make a statement contrary to that? Not to my recollection. Line 18 is the question, so that's from you.
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So they, their conclusion was the body has been dead several months to several years, correct? Answer, that's how I interpret that, yes. So that's my interpretation of how it was presented in the anthropology report, which I defer to.
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Probably a year.
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A year. Okay. So was it in 2016?
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So as Mr. Bunce might ask you, as you said here, offer your scientific opinions and statements. You don't know how long the body had been in the ground, correct? Not precisely, no. Okay. And any statement took by law enforcement would be their conjecture on outside evidence, correct? Not scientific evidence.
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They'd have to address where they're getting that information. Right. If they're being specific.
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After your report, did you speak to law enforcement ever again?
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Okay. Do you speak with the state?
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I don't recall.
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Yes, I'm sure I did at some point.
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Okay. Refer you to your deposition, page 52, line 20.
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Line 20, question, did you speak with Mr. Camuccio at all? Answer, for me, about this case, question, yes, sir. Answer, I don't. I don't recall having done so. If I did, I don't recall. I certainly don't recall a lengthy conversation about this case. If I did, it was probably quite a long time ago. That was at the time of deposition. I did speak with them following deposition.
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You don't recall. Okay. And so you never pick up a phone and call Lori?
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So prior to your deposition and after a shaver had been arrested, you hadn't spoken to the state again?
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Not up to that point, not to my recollection, no. Okay.
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Please introduce yourself.
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Cryo scene investigators began that slow and painstaking excavation process by digging up dirt, sifting that dirt, separating potential evidence. And that process went for a period of time. As they dug, and as they dug, and as they sifted, They eventually came across a humorous bone, which is a bone in an arm.
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Yes, my name is Edgar Perez, and I am currently employed at the Florida Department of Law Enforcement in the biology and DNA section of the Orlando Regional Operations Center.
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How long have you worked there?
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Approximately 17 years.
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What do you do at Orlando?
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So currently I am one of the statewide assistant quality managers, particularly over the biology and DNA discipline. But when I worked this case, I was a crime laboratory analyst.
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Were you provided some evidence collected in the case of State of Florida v. Lori Shaver, Lake County Sheriff's Office Case 180025431? I was. I want to start with some questions pertaining to the identification of the victim in this case. Were you provided a buckle swab or a known DNA standard from a person named Douglas Shaver? Yes, I was. So you wasn't introduced and known as a state citizen?
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No, I didn't even have her telephone number.
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Let's analyze that item. I did. Yes, I obtained a complete DNA profile from the sample. So now if you have a complete DNA profile from Douglas Shaver, are you able to compare that profile to something collected at the scene to see if those profiles match or if... Let's say in this case, a femur bone originated from a biological child of Douglas Shaver. Yes.
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That's how close y'all were, correct? I was not close with Lori, no.
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Did you in fact receive a femur bone from the Lake County Sheriff's Office?
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Yes, I did.
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Did you in fact take cuttings from that femur or take portions of that femur bone to use in your DNA analysis? Yes. Did you perform DNA analysis on those portions of the femur bone that you removed? I did. And what were your results?
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Okay. And you're not present, sitting here telling the jury you witnessed any kind of homicide, correct? No, I did not. Okay. You don't know who he was with the last 24 hours, correct?
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From the femur bone, I was able to obtain a complete DNA profile that was consistent with originating from a male individual.
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How do you know it came from a male?
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As part of the DNA process, there is an area that's called a malagenin, and it's a sex determining marker. Basically, if you have an X and an X, you're a female. If you have an X and a Y, biologically, you are considered a male.
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So did you then compare that male DNA profile that you obtained from the femur to the known DNA standards obtained from Douglas Schaefer?
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Yes. In this particular situation, that would consist of me doing a parentage type of analysis since I am dealing with a sample that is from an alleged parent to an alleged biological child.
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So how are you able to then tell whether the femur bone was from a biological child of Douglas Shaver by doing this analysis?
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When the DNA profile was obtained from the femur bone, it was compared to the profile from Douglas Shaver. And during that comparison, it was determined that it's consistent with being the biological child of Douglas Shaver. And the single parentage index, which is an odds ratio, comparing the probability of the observed profile that was obtained from Michael Douglas Shaver
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coming from the biological parent versus some other unrelated random individual in the population. And that probability was 21,000. Now, I also did a single parentage probability of exclusion calculation, which is the chance that a random individual will be correctly excluded as a biological parent. And that is approximately 99.99%.
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So is it fair to say the DNA from the femur bone is consistent with coming from the biological child of Edla Schaefer? Yes. You're referring to some other pieces of evidence that you received from the Lake County Sheriff's Office. Did you receive some fingernail and toenails collected from the scene of a grave in which a skeleton was located? Yes, that's correct.
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Because it was getting late at this point, and crime scene investigators realized that they have a lot more work to do and it's going to be getting dark pretty soon, they stopped the excavation process and put it on hold until the following morning when it became light out.
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So it was introduced as evidence to say it was a 21. Did you analyze those finger and toenails for the presentation?
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No, I do not.
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Yes, I did.
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What were your results?
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When these samples were submitted through the DNA process, they went through the process of quantitation to figure out the amount of DNA in the sample. And unfortunately, those samples failed to demonstrate a sufficient amount of DNA to go forward through the complete DNA analysis process.
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So there was just not enough DNA there for you to even do any kind of analysis? That's correct. If we know their finger and toenails, how could that be?
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You don't know about any altercation that transpired, correct?
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It depends on the condition of them. If we're dealing with a sample that was exposed to environmental conditions, DNA that could be found in the nail bed could be degrading over time, or there may just not be any DNA there present.
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The DNA degrade over time, even if the body was buried under the ground and not in the direct heat, things like that?
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Yeah, so there are soil humectants and bacteria that would eventually start degrading the DNA.
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So is that at all surprising that you weren't able to find sufficient DNA from those finger and toenails to do any kind of a comparison? Not at all. Were you also provided some boxer shorts and some other shorts to analyze for the presence of DNA? I was. Or do you recognize that item? I do. Did you analyze that item for the presence of DNA?
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I know of a previous one, yes.
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Yes, for this specific item, I'm describing the boxers, the shorts, the black shorts. I did test for the presence of semen on there, and it failed to give chemical indications for the presence of semen. A sample was also taken from the item for DNA, and it was again submitted through the DNA process through quantitation.
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Okay. You don't have a previous one. Okay. Did you witness this previous? I did not. Okay. So you don't see any kind of altercation. You just say, hey, we heard from Michael last around 2014, correct? Correct. And sometime thereafter, I don't know, we became a little concerned, correct?
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It failed to demonstrate sufficient amounts of DNA quantitation to go forward with a complete DNA process.
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Again, considering that those shorts were found buried in the ground, does that surprise you? No, it does not. Did you do any analysis of the underwear, the boxer shorts?
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Going back to November of 2015, did you have any upcoming plans with Michael Shaver for later in the month?
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There was no examination performed on the underwear due to the condition of the exhibit.
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What was wrong with it? What do you mean by the condition?
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The exhibit was decomposed and shredded. There's just absolutely no way that I could conceivably swab any portion of it for DNA.
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Did you analyze a blue tarp from IMT for the presence of DNA?
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Yes, I did.
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Do you recognize that item? I do. And how did you analyze that blue tarp for the presence of DNA?
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The blue tarp would have been swapped with a similar swab as it's used to collect the inside of the mouth. It's just a giant Q-tip. I would swab the surface of the item to collect any type of DNA that could have been transferred onto the item, and then subjected it to the DNA analysis process.
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Law enforcement officers were stationed and posted in the area to make sure that nobody came onto the scene to disturb any of the evidence or do anything to the Shaver residents. The next morning, law enforcement officers, crime scene investigators, medical examiner investigators, and other people went to the Shaver residence to continue this excavation process.
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What were your results when you tried to collect DNA from this harp?
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When the sample was sent through the DNA process, it reached the point of quantitation. And when it got there, there wasn't sufficient amounts of DNA to go forward with the DNA process.
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Again, considering that chart was buried in the ground, is that surprising at all that there was insufficient DNA for you to even analyze? No, it does not. Showing you a green strap and a tater with some other debris flitting from the gray site. You analyzed that item for the presence of DNA. Yes, I did. What were your results?
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Similar to with the blue tarp, the sample went through up to quantitation and there was insufficient amounts of DNA to go forward with STR DNA analysis.
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And that was from what item did you attempt to extract DNA?
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This would have been the green nylon strap, and there's a white elastic strap as well. Did you analyze the items contained in the Tupperware at all? No, the exhibit that was listed as miscellaneous items from the grave site was not examined. Why not? There was no way of me collecting DNA from those items, and the expectation is that I would not obtain DNA profiles from the condition of them.
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I'm showing you a swab taken from the exterior track of the sliding glass door, which dates to the 17th. Did you analyze that by the work printing of the DNA?
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Yes, I did. What were your results? There were no STR DNA results obtained from this exhibit.
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What does that mean?
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That means that there was not even a single peak present when it was taken through the entire DNA process.
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So, no DNA at all in that swab? No. Showing you a swab from a stain below the sliding left door. Thunder at that porch. State Specific 18. Did you analyze that item for the presence of DNA?
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Yes, I did.
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And what did you find?
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So the sample went through the DNA process. It reached the point of quantitation, and it was determined that there wasn't sufficient amounts of DNA to go forward with the DNA analysis process.
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Considering that this sample was collected on the exterior of a house, does that surprise you? No, it does not. For the same reason you previously described? Yes. Showing you States Exhibit 16, a swab taken from the interior sliding door track, from the sliding glass door of the residence. Did you analyze that item for the presence of DNA? I did. And what did you find?
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So this particular sample demonstrated the presence of a mixture consistent with three donors, including at least one male.
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What does that mean?
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When I obtained a mixture, like I was saying, you get half of your DNA from your mother and half from your father. I'm only expecting two pieces of DNA information at each location that I look at. If I see more than two pieces of information at multiple locations, it gives me an indication that there are multiple donors to that sample or multiple DNA profiles.
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So it's creating effectively a DNA puzzle.
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In this case, you indicated that there were three donors?
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Yes, that's correct.
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And one of the donors was male?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And yet we never call Lori, correct? Correct.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, at least one donor was a male.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How did you determine that at least one donor was male?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In the DNA process, you can only see the XX or the XY once. It's not like different males have different Y chromosomes. So if there is a male in a sample, I can only tell that there's at least one. because of the presence of the Y chromosome.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Are you sometimes able to separate out the DNA profiles contained in a mixture and compare it to known DNA samples?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
As crime scene investigators continued to dig and continued to sift the dirt, they came across a blue tarp buried in the ground. Beneath that blue tarp, they found human remains. The bones and the human remains were clearly skeletonized,
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it's possible.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Are you able to tell the source of the DNA that you found on that swab? Meaning, was it saliva, blood, sweat, semen, things like that?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I would not be able to tell you the source.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I did not myself personally.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you compare the known profile of Douglas Shaver to the mixture that you found on the swab from the interior portion of the sliding glass door?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I did. What were your results? Douglas Shaver was excluded as a contributor to that mixed DNA profile. He was excluded?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. Meaning he dealt with Shaver's DNA, could not have been part of that mixture?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Please introduce yourself, please.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Based on his DNA profile, it's not conceivable that it fits into that mixture as it stands.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you compare the DNA profile from the femur, reportedly the femur of Michael Shaver, to the DNA mixture you found from the swab in the interior of that sliding glass door? I did. And what were your results?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My name is Douglas Shaver.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The comparison of the profile from Michael Douglas Shaver failed to demonstrate sufficient statistical support for inclusion or exclusion. Therefore, I can't make any determinations as to the presence of Michael Douglas Shaver on this item.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Bottom line, you can't tell scientifically if Michael Shaver was a contributor to that mixture, correct? No, I cannot. Did you compare the known DNA profile of Lori Shaver to the mixture from that swab on the interior of the sliding glass door? I did. What were your results?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did you know Mike Shaver?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So Lori Shaver was included as a possible contributor to this DNA mixture, and it was approximately 3.1 billion times more likely to occur if the sample originated from Lori Shaver and two unrelated individuals than from three unrelated individuals.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, he's my son.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you also analyze a piece of vinyl laminated flooring recovered from a fire pit? Yes, I did. And before we get to the laminated flooring, if this, referring back to the swab on the interior sliding glass door, would... A profile consistent with Lori Shaver's DNA being included in that mixture. Would that be surprising considering that this was her house and she lived there? Not necessarily.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And how many children do you have?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Referring to the laminate flooring that we just talked about, did you analyze that item for the presence of DNA?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This particular item? Presence of blood. Yes, so I did a serological test for the presence of blood.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I have four.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What were the results of that chemical blood test?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So this particular exhibit failed to give chemical indications for the presence of blood.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you do any further DNA analysis on that item?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I did not.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At that point, if I don't have an indication of the presence of a fluid, then I'm not expecting to get any DNA except for any extraneous type that might be there. And given that it's a piece of random material from the environment, who knows what you can pick up from it if you swab it.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And where is Michael?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Those human remains, there were socks on them, there was a pair of boxers and a pair of shorts on human remains, and a green ratchet-type strap was wrapped around those bones. Crime scene investigators carefully collected the bones out of the grave, placed them on a tarp, And those bones were transported to the medical examiner's office for an autopsy to be done.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you, sir. I have another question.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right, Mr. Wiggs.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
May it please the court. Yes, sir. Mr. Brass, how are you doing, sir? Hey, good. Yourself? Good, good. Recall I took your deposition? Yes. A couple years ago.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Michael was the, he would have been next to the youngest.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was. It's been some time, yeah. Yeah, it has been a while.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I had your report, reviewed it, discussed it with you at your deposition, and... Throughout your direct examination, the state talked to you about multiple exhibits, items that were found in the gravesite, correct? That's correct. And you used the terminology degraded versus none, correct? Yes. Okay. Is it not a fact that there could have been DNA presence? No.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
or divided that DNA precedent some time, but what you were able to examine didn't have any DNA. It's a possibility. Okay. So aside from saying that the evidence was degraded, it may be that it never had any DNA.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, there is a possibility that there was not DNA in the object.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So when the states asked you, does it surprise you, does it surprise you, does it surprise you, and you've stated, no, not given the condition of the item, it may be the item may never have had any DNA on it, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At some point while he was a child, did you and his mother divorce? Yes, we did. What type of contact would you have with Michael Shamer after that?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, that is a possibility. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So we're looking at your report. Do you have a copy of your report before you? I do. Okay. Let's go to the door, okay, and the rear track. Were you ever able to determine anybody's DNA in that region of the track? Could you determine which report and which exhibit? Let me see. Number 23. Okay. Okay. What was your conclusion?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The only comparison that I was able to provide an inclusion for was for the profile of Lori Shaver. Did that make sure of three donors?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. There was three donors, including at least one male contributor. Yes, that's correct. Okay. Whose known male contributor profiles were you supplying?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was given the DNA profile from Douglas Shaver and then the profile from the femur, which was also a male individual, which was represented as being Michael Douglas Shaver.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Those were the only profiles that were provided to the attorney's office, correct? Yes. And that was recovered, to your understanding, on the lower region of the doorway, correct? Based on the description from the item, yes. So on the blue tarp, there was no DNA recovered, correct? Just to make this clear.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I would have him during the summer months. I'd have him flown down, and then I'd usually have him at Christmas time.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There was insufficient amounts of DNA to go forward.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Insufficient meaning, again, as we've spoken, there may never have been any, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So in this particular sample, when I took it through the quantitation process, there was an indication of potentially DNA being present. But if it doesn't hit a specific threshold, the sample doesn't go forward for DNA analysis.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So there was a lack of evidence on that item, correct? Yes. And every item that was supplied to you... Dealing with the gravesite, none of those had any profile hits for Lori Shaver, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not that I'm aware of.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. The linoleum or the flooring that was supplied, that had no profile or hit. of any DNA containing Lori Shaver, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
For that piece of the floor tile, I only tested it for blood and I stopped processing after it didn't give chemical indications for the presence of blood.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Were there any hairs found in the gravesite location that were supplied to you?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I believe Exhibit 22, there were hairs associated with that exhibit.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And did they yield any kind of profile of any individual? No.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What kind of contact would you have with him once he became an adult?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So for the hairs that I examined from the exhibit, which were the swabs from the stain on the sliding, on the siding below the sliding door under the back porch. So there were some apparent hairs that were also submitted with that. I looked at those hairs under the microscope, and they were not suitable to go forward with DNA processing.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So the hairs couldn't even yield any DNA profile, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Based on the analysis that I performed in the lab, those hairs were not suitable to go forward. That's not to say that there are other laboratories that may potentially do other types of testing on hairs, but based on the limitations that I have in the laboratory, I couldn't test those hairs.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, we were planning on having Thanksgiving together.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Were those sent to any other laboratory for further testing? Not to my knowledge. Did you test any object in the house that was supplied to you that contained any DNA from Lori Shaver?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was limited.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There were no exhibits that had any association to Laurie Shaver except for that one from the anterior lower track of the sliding door, which was Exhibit 23.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Correct. One moment, please.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir. No further questions.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did there come a period of time in 2014 where Michael was not living with his wife, Lauren?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Second shot. All right. Redirect. Very briefly. The hairs that you talked about, you said cross-suit holes, except you've been playing with reels.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So when I look at it microscopically, I examine the root to see if it's in the correct stage of growth or if it has follicular material, meaning there's skin cells that were pulled off from your scalp onto the hair. And I didn't notice either of these. So the hairs were not sent forward for DNA analysis because of the two characteristics that I look at when I'm taking hairs for DNA.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
While still on scene, one of the crime scene investigators, Jessica Holcomb, made contact with Mike DeShaver's father, Doug Shaver. Doug Shaver had come down from Georgia, down to Claremont, now that the Shaver residence. We learned that law enforcement was doing this investigation of what law enforcement had found the night before.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you, sir. No other questions.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mr. Wiggs? No, nothing further. Thank you, Judge. All right.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I really don't know.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was Michael ever in the military?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After November of 2015, did there come a time where the family started being concerned about Michael Shaver's whereabouts? Yes. And can you describe the things that the family started to do once they became concerned?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can you please introduce yourself to the crew?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Crime scene investigator Jessica Holcomb collected a DNA sample from Doug Shaver, which took a swab and put it inside of his mouth and collected what's called a buccal swab as a known DNA standard for comparisons.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was the last time that you physically saw or spoke in person to Michael Schiff?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm not much into texting and basically what I was told from other family members that we're texting back and forth. Objection. Judge Kirstein.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They both were sent to work on November 10th of 2015. They worked the night shift, which was 7 p.m. to 7 and 4 a.m. Tuesday, November 10, 2015, throw it around. Michael Shaver didn't show up for work. He didn't show up. He didn't call saying, hey, I'm not coming in. This was unusual for Michael Shaver not to show up for work and not to call saying, hey, I can't make it for whatever reason.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You'll hear that the femur bone collected from the grave, along with the DNA standards from Douglas Shaver, Michael Shaver's father, were sent to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement for DNA analysis. The DNA analyst Edgar Perez compared the DNA from that femur bone found in the grave to the known DNA standard of Douglas Shaver and confirmed what at this point was known to everyone.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sustained. My question specifically was, what types of things was the family doing once, not why you all were concerned, but what types of things were done once the concern began?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Then they just started searching and contacted the Sheriff's Department.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Were you able to have any sort of contact, either talking to Mr. Schaefer on the phone or speaking to him in person after November of 2015?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He determined that the DNA from the femur was consistent with coming from a bone of the biological child of Douglas Shaver. This confirmed Michael Shaver, who had been missing and not heard from since November of 2015, was in that grave, deceased. As I said, Michael Shaver's remains were collected and transported to the medical examiner's office for an autopsy to be done.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And once the body was discovered in the backyard of the Shaver residence, did law enforcement contact you about that discovery? I was down there. And were you present and did you submit a DNA sample to law enforcement for future comparisons?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nothing further, Judge?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mr. Wakes. Mr. Shaver, you were relatively estranged from your son, were you not? For a period of time. For a period of time. When did you guys have this reunification? Pardon me? When was there ever a reunification between the two of you?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was at least a month before we were making plans for Thanksgiving.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that's where Dr. Kyle Shaw, one of the medical examiners there, performed an autopsy. When he examined the skull that was recovered, he found an obvious single gunshot wound to the back of the skull, all the way to the back of the skull, consisting of that of a gunshot wound. He found a bullet or a projectile inside the skull.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I really don't understand the question.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When did you guys get back together?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
An analysis later determined that that bullet was of a .38 caliber class, meaning that bullet could have been fired from a .38, a .380, a .357, or a 9-millimeter. That .38 caliber class can be fired of any of those types of caliber guns because the size is varied.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you have an event to the Shaver residence?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I've never been there, except the day when they discovered his body. And you live where? You live where?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I live in Georgia. So you're up in Georgia. You have some reunification. You never went to the Shaver residence, correct? That's correct. Okay. I'm going to ask you an obvious question. Obviously, you never occurred a homicide in this case, correct?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So, there was no exit wound to the skull, indicating a single entrance wound, hence the projectile being found inside the skull when it recovered. Dr. Shaw examined the skull, found no other injuries or no other trauma. He examined all of the other bones collected. He found no other signs of trauma or injuries, no chips or breaks, no tongue or whatsoever in any of the other bones.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's correct.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You don't know how Michael died the day of his death?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you ever receive any contact about those Thanksgiving plans, either canceling it or doing anything with those plans?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do I not know how he died?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Oh, no, no. That's correct.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Based on his analysis, Dr. Shaw determined that the cause of death was the single gunshot wound to the back of the head and deferring this to be a homicide. Michael Shaver's remains were then sent to a laboratory associated with the University of Florida. It's a laboratory called the Pound Lab, and they specialize in the analysis and examination of human remains.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's correct.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. I have no further questions yet. All right, redirect.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Please introduce yourself and the chair.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Hi, I'm Desiree Ruggles.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you know Michael Shearer?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Dr. Samantha Coberly examined the remains as well, determined that the remains were consistent with a young to middle-aged male, of which Michael Shaver was. And they were consistent with having been in the ground for several months to several years. She also examined the skull, saw that single gunshot wound, and confirmed in her opinion that was the result of a single gunshot wound.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. He was my uncle.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you know Lori Shearer?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Have you ever met her?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And prior to Michael's death, how often would you communicate with him?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Never. Sorry, with him? Yes. When I was able to.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you communicate with him at all about the sign frame where you were getting married?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She also determined, she also examined the skull and the bones and found no other signs of trauma or damage or injury to any other part of the skull or any of the other bones recovered. And almost the entire skeleton was recovered.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't remember, honestly.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you send an invitation?
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The Bundy Tapes
because all the sheriff's department calls it tape doesn't bother me they you always figure they know everything anyway yeah how are you doing i'm doing pretty good ted how are you doing well i'm hanging in there i uh i just got the bug last week and uh wanted just wanted to chat with you briefly because we have been away for a long time yeah right and uh right how are things going for you over there uh well quite well quite frankly uh i was just talking to someone the other day and
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The Bundy Tapes
I began thinking about that way back in Utah. I had a year to study criminal law in action. And I'm a very biased person. I have a lot of strong opinions about how things should be done. And when I came here, I think that my opinions were established to the point where the method that my tyrannies wished to impose here and my own did not agree. And we couldn't coexist.
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The Bundy Tapes
And theirs were right for them, and mine are going to be right for me. I have the greatest amount of confidence, at least in the preparation stage, that my ideas will work. And believe me, I'm not standing here alone. I'm just called a habit as an attorney friend of mine today. Every day I get input. Every day I ask questions. But the reason I went on my own is because I just felt it was time.
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The Bundy Tapes
I felt it was right. I wanted to get involved. I wanted to become a part of my defense because I am such a part of it. I mean, obviously, I'm going to bear the consequences, so why not bear the responsibility of seeking my own acquittal and sustaining my own innocence?
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The Bundy Tapes
Ted, when you left Salt Lake, when you were extradited, you issued a statement saying you feel that everything will turn out all right, that you are innocent. Do you still feel that?
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The Bundy Tapes
That, yeah, more than ever. Of course, you can't help... but become an advocate for yourself when you're so involved in the case. And being a good defense attorney, and again, I'm not pretending I'm an attorney, but putting yourself in a position of being your own counsel, it's that positive psychology. You're going to do it. You're going to do it because you're right.
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The Bundy Tapes
You're going to do it because the person you're representing is innocent. It just happens to be, in this case, I've got a lot at stake, and the person I'm representing is myself, and I'm working all the harder. Yeah, I feel good about it, and yes, I feel that I'm right, and yes, I feel I'm going to make it. No doubt in my mind.
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The Bundy Tapes
There's always one thing that amazed me, as you know. I covered your trial, and I was there every day. When the judge found you guilty of second-degree kidnapping, you never showed any emotion. Yeah. For somebody who believes he is so innocent, why was there no emotion?
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The Bundy Tapes
My attorney, John O'Connell, in Salt Lake, and I've always mused over just how I should behave. What's the right way for Ted Bundy to behave and make sure that people get the right impression? And I just behaved the way I felt was right. Okay, let me take the day of March 1st, 1976, the day that the judge rendered his verdict in my case first. I didn't show any emotion because...
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The Bundy Tapes
They've added a couple of additional Utah transactions, alleged transactions, in their attempt to gain a conviction in the Colorado case. I don't know. I've been so overwhelmed by work recently that, you know, there's just a lot to do. But, you know, way back when, when I was This was back in April when I decided to represent myself in this case.
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The Bundy Tapes
You know, what am I supposed to do? Am I going to jump up on the table? Am I going to scream? That's what I felt like doing. I heard my mother crying. It's an emotional time. I don't even like to think of that day.
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The Bundy Tapes
But I wasn't going to give these people who went out and built a case around a non-existent eyewitness, an eyewitness identification that was built by the police, I wasn't going to give them the satisfaction of seeing me break down. And sure I may, and I'm showing emotion right now because inside I may. But I've kept it together because there's no point in destroying myself.
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The Bundy Tapes
I have got to keep myself together. I have got to stay calm. I've got to keep my presence of mind because as long as I do that, I'm going to beat these people. And that's the way I feel. I showed no emotion. I felt emotion. Believe me. Now... When Carol DeRosh, the kidnapping victim from Utah, came to testify in this preliminary hearing here, I was beside myself with rage.
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She is turning into a professional witness as far as I'm concerned. She is a prosecution witness. And when I heard her go through that routine that I had heard three times before, I had restrained myself every time. I couldn't do it this time. And I told my attorney, I said, I'm going to get
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inches long now and i felt it he pulled me down he says listen he says you can't do that that's okay but i had to do it for once for once they had to do it and do you know something people say ted bundy didn't show any emotion there must be something in there i showed emotion you know what people said see you really can't get violent and angry uh there's no white right way for me to act i act and i don't care what people think about how i act i act
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according to the way I think is right and best for me at the time. I'm not going to try to please people or impress people, because quite frankly, the amount of bias and prejudice that surrounds me as a media image, I can't begin to tear down. Not with this interview or a hundred interviews.
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Ted, do you believe, I'm a person from the media, other people here, do you believe that we created you, that it's our fault that we created this image of The mass murder, is that what you're saying to us?
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Well, I think in the course of doing the job you did, not in a malign way, not in a personal vendetta against me, but in the course of publishing the material and broadcasting the material coming out of the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office or the Salt Lake County Prosecutor's Office, you began... to plant the seed in people's minds.
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Now, that may be your constitutional right and duty, as well as your livelihood. But I think in the process, you did create a media image of me that's far beyond the reality of me.
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That's what he called it. I suggested it John, we ought to get Mattel to make little dogs that walk and say, I'm the Bundy monster.
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Ted, let me ask you this. You totally believe you're innocent. Mm-hmm. I'm not questioning that. My question to you is, how did it come to be that Ted Bundy could be involved in some of these things and has now been charged, convicted once, is now facing first-degree murder charges? Mm-hmm. And as you know, he was being suspected in other murders. How did Ted Bundy come out?
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That's a very long story, and I really can't... If I knew the answers to that question, I wouldn't be sitting here right now. I'd be back in Salt Lake with a new trial. And one day I'll have those answers, and one day I'll have a new trial. But I don't know why. I can't begin to understand why. I know that there's a lot of... Police ego on the line.
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I know that a lot of men in the detective's division, Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office jobs are on the line. I know that a long time ago it ceased to be an issue as to whether or not I was innocent or guilty. The issue is now is can we pin it on him? Can we follow through and maintain our reputation as law enforcement officers?
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I could just... I was just thinking to myself, I could hear Al big. Yeah, yeah, I knew we tried to do something like that. Yeah, I knew you would. Well, I remember one time you come in. I can't remember whether it was something I read in your report. I think it may have been something I read in one of your reports, quite frankly. That I can't... Delegate responsibility or something to that effect.
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And I'll tell you, as long as they attempt to keep their heads in the sand about me, there's going to be people turning up in canyons, and there's going to be people being shot in Salt Lake City because the police there aren't willing to accept what I think they know, and they know that I didn't do these things. Okay.
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Okay. Then how do you exist every day? How do you keep your sound? Well, um... How are you keeping your sound? You're a young man. You're intelligent, obviously. Obviously. How do you stay in that little cell and stay sane?
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They gave me a year's training course in that. From March 1st of 76 until I was expedited to Colorado, I was locked up. I had a lot of time to work on being locked up. It wasn't easy at first, but now it's easy. I mean, they made me hard inside, and I can spend time in there. I don't like it. I'll never like it, and I'll never accept it.
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But I can deal with it because I know how to, let's say... Have you trained your mind? Train the mind. Is that the word I was going to use? It's not exactly training your mind. It's just creating your own environment in here. And not looking at the ceiling, not looking at the wall, and not thinking about the outside, and not anguishing over the fact that you've lost your freedom.
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But simply in here, simply knowing that some freedom... I mean, I live 24 hours a day in that thing, except when I go to the library. What did you say?
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Exercise? I walk about two miles a day. inside 880 laps. I haven't been following your case that closely, but you'll have to agree you're the target of a great deal of mystery, and you said earlier macabre interest. Why?
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You'll have to admit there's a hell of a lot of circumstantial evidence, at least circumstantial, it seems to somebody who has read
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No, I won't admit that. No, it's not circumstantial as far as I'm concerned. I don't really know exactly what you're referring to, and I don't really want to discuss it. But I don't care what anybody says or the suspicions anyone harbors on the basis of that misinformation. And indeed, that's what I call it, circumstantial information perhaps, but misinformation as far as I'm concerned.
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A lot of people trying to pin a lot of stuff on somebody because, you know, it's convenient. But... You think you've been set up? Well, I don't think there's any broad scheme, but I think one begins to... I would have to infer that based on some of the police activity. I think following November of 75, you'd have to say that there was a general...
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design amongst police officers in several jurisdictions to do whatever they could. And I think a statement recently made by a sheriff in Utah County, I believe, he said that he walked out in some of those meetings because it was just clear that they had one thing on their mind and they were going to do anything to prove it. And I think this trial will show exactly what they've done.
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I don't know. I don't think it's exactly where you put it, but... Yeah, I can't remember anything. But something more or less that I like to, you know, do things myself and have a hard time entrusting things to others. I can't remember how you say it. Yeah, it's an achievement. I'm not sure.
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I'm not going to sit here and say people have perjured themselves, but I think that will come out. Are you angry? Sure, I get angry. I get very, very angry and indignant.
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I don't like being locked up for something I didn't do, and I don't like my liberty taken away, and I don't like being treated like an animal, and I don't like people walking around and ogling me like I'm some sort of weirdo, because I'm not. I'm perfectly happy with the person I am, and I've always been happy.
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I mean, yeah, I don't pay my telephone bills on time, and I don't write my mother as many letters as I should. There are all kinds of things I can improve about myself, but a weirdo knows I feel good about myself. I'm happy with myself. You don't change. You stay Ted Bundy 24 hours a day. Well, gee, that name sounds funny. You know, I hear Ted Bundy in so many different contexts. I stay me.
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Okay, I've matured in the past year. Believe me, I've grown in the past year, and I've learned a lot of things about myself in the past year. Being in prison, going through a kind of hell, matures a person, and I think it's done good things for me. My only misgiving is that I might never be in a position to apply it, you know, on the streets where I'd like to apply it.
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do you ever think when you're in that cell about the possibility that you could one day face a firing squad they don't have firing squads in colorado and i don't think that in any event that i ever think i don't think about it honest to god now and i've been asked that question before and i'm going to give you pat answer if you don't mind when you did you fly over here from Yes.
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Did it worry you all the way over that you might be killed in a plane crash? No. Are you thinking about it now, going back? Same here. I think I stand about as much chance of dying in front of a firing squad or in a gas chamber as you do being killed in a plane flight home. Let's hope you don't. So you don't lie awake at night thinking about it? Not a moment. Honest to God, not a moment.
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Anyway, I was just wondering, I know you're really at arm's length on this thing, and, you know, we haven't really... know taught personally obviously since the latter part of january yeah right impressions about all that you've been hearing about the me and and okay how do you mean well like the escape and everything I wonder what your impression of that was.
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Because it's not going to happen. Are you going to be a free man? Do you think that about being a free man? Sure. Yeah.
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And you think when I say there is circumstantial evidence that I'm in left field, there isn't circumstantial evidence?
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I know there isn't. You're dealing on the outside, I'm on the inside. I mean, you have access to information, but I'm on the inside. I know what's there and I know what isn't there. I've seen the files and I've heard the reports. And Lord knows I'm the first and foremost person who has the personal intimate knowledge that it couldn't be me, that it's not me, that I'm innocent.
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Dealing from that on out, I know exactly what's what. And when you tell me the circumstantial evidence, I'm not going to argue with you, Lucky. It's just, let's just wait and let's just let it come out in court. Let's let it be examined in open court. And I'll lay my money on me. That's the way I feel. Do you think about getting out of here? Well, legally, sure.
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With the rumors that have gone on about you, and you're more aware of them than I am, how have you been treated in prison by other inmates?
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Well, I think you may... Has it made your life more difficult or more dangerous being in prison? I think you may be more aware of the rumors than I am. For this reason, I have heard a lot of talk, and there might be an inmate ex who says, you know, Bundy's this and that kind of person.
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But you know, when I'm confronted person to person by these people, or by people in general, I have never, I have never been accused, I have never been assaulted, I have never been verbally abused. And the reason is because I hold my head high, I believe in myself, and I treat every man with the respect that he deserves. And that's the way you get along in prison.
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One of the many ways you get along in the joint is that you treat a man with respect, that you don't try to hustle somebody, that you come across straight to him. One of the first things you learn is that if you're a straight con and you keep your mouth shut and you keep tight with good people, you're going to stay out of trouble. And it doesn't make any difference what you've done.
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What happens if you're in prison five years and nothing like what has happened in the past happens again?
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I mean, any of the things that you have been accused of by innuendo, by rumor, by the police departments or whatever, what if there are no killings or no kidnappings? It's already happened, hasn't it?
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I've heard some reports. I remember the incidents between 5 and 8, which are similar to the ones which the police have had the nerve to try to associate with me. It's going to continue to happen in Salt Lake and Utah until those police start to wise up and stop counting their chickens before they hatch.
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I think it's a terribly dangerous mentality to try to pin something on somebody who they believe there's a possibility couldn't have done it. And as long as they believe that, they're not going to find the right man. And the man who kidnapped Carol Durant is going to continue to be free.
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And not only her, but every other young woman in the Salt Lake Valley is going to be threatened by that person or persons. And it's happening today and it's going to happen in the future. What do you think about, in your mind, what do you conjure up about the man that they're after or the real man who did these things? Man or man, persons, persons, I don't know.
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I really have, I can't even begin to understand the mentality. I don't understand the motivation. Okay. Do you ever feel like you'd like to escape? Let me preface any answer to that remark by giving my feeling about jails. Somebody asked me, that question's been asked me before, I mean, would you want to escape? Have you ever planned to escape?
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And if my attorney was here, he'd say, I object, Your Honor. Mr. Bundy is being asked a question, an attempt is being made to ask Mr. Bundy to incriminate himself. But let me try to get my way out of that one. The Utah State Prison, as you know, is surrounded by several barbed wire fences and has many, many guards and towers. And they've got dogs that run around there.
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And they've got bars in the cells. And they've got count procedures. And what do you think that's all for? That's to keep the men in there. Now, does anyone think that if they took those fences down, and took those dogs away and those guns away, all those guys would stay? Sure they'd go.
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The very reason for prison, the very assumption of all those bars and all that barbed wire is that if it's not there, those guys are going to leave. And I swear to God, every man in that prison at one time or another thinks about going, wishes he wasn't there, and wishes he could fly over those fences. I've dreamed about flying over those fences.
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Just, again, just from a part of you who knows me but who didn't have an opportunity to speak to me either just before or after that happened.
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I've dreamed about climbing over those fences and tunneling under those fences. With every other man in there, I've dreamed about being free. Because I don't like my liberty being taken away and no man does. Some men in the Utah State Prison become institutionalized because they've been so brutalized over the years they don't want to think about the outside.
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But most every man when he first goes in there dreams and thinks and conjures up all kinds of ideas of freedom. But the real difference, the real measure of a man in prison as far as escape goes is the difference between hitting that fence and not hitting that fence. between getting shot at and not getting shot at, and having the guts to do it and not having the guts to do it.
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You might be able to open those gates at the Utah State Prison, and 80% of the guys wouldn't leave. They'd be afraid to get back out into society. They'd be afraid of being shot or getting another beef put on them. But some would. All I'm saying is, I'm no fool. I don't like being locked up, and I don't think any man does.
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You talk about getting out. Do you ever worry about what some of the parents of some of these women who think you are guilty, that they might come after you?
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Yeah, right. Yeah, this is something that'd be fun to sit down and chat with you about an hour. Yeah. And, uh... Uh... I had mixed impressions. I was wondering if you were really getting uptight and the pressure looked like it was on, you know? And I was wondering if it was, uh... getting looked like in your mind that you were going to be convicted.
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I don't worry about it. There are crazy people anywhere. I've been told that the parents of these that these girls are fairly decent people. I don't know. And I really feel for them because apparently they've suffered an incredible tragedy in their lives. The loss of a loved one is probably the most extreme kind of loss you can suffer in this life.
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And I feel as much for them as anybody can, not having gone through that myself. But as far as worrying about that, hey, if someone's crazy enough and nutty enough to do something like that, I can't stop them. There's nothing I can do. You are not guilty. I'm not guilty. Does that include the time I stole a comic book when I was five years old?
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I'm not guilty of the charges which have been filed against me. And the allegations. And the allegations. And the rumors. I don't know all of what she's speaking about, Lucky. It's too broad, and I can't get into it in any detail. But I'm satisfied with my... blanket statement that I'm innocent. No man is truly innocent.
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I mean, we all have transgressed in some way in our lives, and as I say, I've been impolite, and there are things I regret having done in my life, but nothing like the things I think that you're referring to.
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Yeah, I know more about it. My class is graduating in about a month. In law school? I bet you I know more about law than any of them. That pisses me off. Now that does piss me off.
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The trial of a man accused of killing two girls in a sorority house in Tallahassee, Florida, is having a difficult time getting underway. Ike Siemens is covering this case.
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33-year-old Theodore Bundy is charged with beating and strangling two Florida State University sorority sisters and attempting to kill another woman student in January 1978. His trial was transferred to Miami after Judge Edward Cowart found that choosing an impartial jury in Tallahassee would be difficult. Selection of the 12-person jury began yesterday in Miami.
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Unlike most murder trials, this one will feature the defendant helping four public defenders in cross-examining witnesses. Bundy, a former law student at the University of Utah, has already complained to the judge that his jail cell is not adequate for his legal research. The judge ordered the jail to change that.
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Inside the courtroom, the trial will be covered by a still photographer and one television camera. Upstairs, there are some 250 reporters and television technicians from around the country. They will be following the trial and making videotaped recordings of it. The Bundy trial is expected to last more than a month, according to the judge.
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Before the trial begins, Bundy's lawyers will ask the judge to throw out two key pieces of pretrial testimony. One is from a woman student. She says she saw the man who ran from the sorority house on the night of the murder. Another is from a dental expert. He says that the teeth marks found on the buttocks of one of the victims could only have been made by Theodore Bundy.
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So when the opportunity was there and you just took it, believe, you know, I'd like to have been able to sit down with you before and after to see, you know, just to see what was happening. Yeah. What, uh, you know, in your own mind, what was, what was happening? What was the reason for it? You know,
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In Miami, Judge Edward Cowart is expected to rule today on two defense motions in the trial of Theodore Bundy. He's accused of murdering two co-eds at Florida State University. The judge heard testimony on one of those motions yesterday. Here are details from Mark Potter of station WCKT.
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Bundy took the witness stand wearing a sport coat and a Seattle Mariners t-shirt.
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He was questioned by one of his attorneys during a pre-trial hearing outside the presence of the jury. Bundy is acting as part of his own defense team and is trying to prevent evidence seized during a 1975 arrest in Granger, Utah from being used in his murder trial in Miami.
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He claims that a pair of handcuffs and a pantyhose mask were taken from his car by patrolmen who did not tell him he could refuse such a search. He also claimed that a patrolman threatened him.
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And the officer, Hayward, had left his car and approached me. And the first thing he said to me was, why didn't you get out of your car and run? I could have taken your head off.
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Judge Edward Cowart has not yet ruled on Bundy's request to suppress the evidence. He also has not ruled on a defense motion to bar the testimony of Nita Neary, a one-time Florida State University co-ed who was the prosecution's main witness. Neary says she is positive she saw Bundy leaving the Cayamaga sorority house carrying a club the night two co-eds were brutally murdered there.
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Would you please state your full name and address? after you'd been stopped by Trooper Hayward. Approximately what time did you leave? Well, it's either the 15th or the 16th. Is there any question about that? It's not. All right. Long as we're not hung with one on one day and one on another, that's the only thing the court would worry about.
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We're talking about one single incident, either August the 15th or August the 16th. Is that correct, gentlemen? After you had been stopped, did Officer Hayward say anything to you?
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Well, after the stop had occurred, I exited my car, and the officer, Hayward, had left his car and approached me, and the first thing he said to me was, why didn't you get out of your car and run?
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I think he asked me a number of questions which intervened the request for a driver's license, and I think he asked me, after his first comment, what I was doing in his neighborhood, to which I did not initially make a response. And then he asked me for my driver's license, which I got from the inside of my car.
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I'd given it a great deal of thought. I'd been moved from Aspen, been in the Aspen, the Pitkin County Jail, which is in Aspen, from January 31st until April the 11th, which is 73 days. I have all this memorized, you know. And in Aspen, I was an open affair. The jail is very small. It's 24, 5, 6, 7 cells, and...
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After I gave the officer my driver's license, he went back to his vehicle, as I recall, and leaned in and pulled out the microphone that they use for the radios and came back to me and told me to go stand by his car, which was approximately 10 feet in back of my car. He told me to wait there, and there was an officer, another state patrolman, who was already on the scene.
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And he told me to stay with the officer. He told the officer to keep an eye on me.
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Let me back up a little bit. Was Officer Hayward in uniform? Yes, he was. Was he carrying a weapon? Yes, he was. Was the additional officer who had come to the scene, was he in uniform? Yes. Was he carrying a weapon? Yes. How many officers arrived at the scene?
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Well, they arrived and they left. I'd say that at any one time there were, the most that were on the scene at any one time, approximately half a dozen. All in uniform? All except for Detective Ondrak, who arrived later, who was in plain clothes.
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Sergeant Hayward's initial reaction, after he told me to stand by his car, he proceeded to my car and walking, he began to walk around it shining his flashlight through the windows and peering in through the windows. The officer that I was standing with next to the patrol car began asking me questions, asking me what I was doing in the neighborhood, why I was there.
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As I was standing by the car, watching him and listening to the officer next to me ask me questions, I watched him walk around the car and shine his flashlight in the car. He apparently was focusing on something inside the car for some time, which seemed like some time.
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He opened the car door. entered the car, and I couldn't see what he was doing. He came back to me and then repeated his earlier questions about what I was doing in his neighborhood, why I was there, and then, as I recall, he went to make another call on his police radio.
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And the words, whether or not they asked me if they could look at my car is something I don't recall or construed as a request to search my car.
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uh you know and all the doors are open all the time the place has been built in 1887 but it was just you know here is where i could come out we could relate to talk to other prisoners go in their cell you know something like at the state prison not like me in the main line and then they moved me down here this is part of the escape because i was a security risk and they put me in a 6 by 12 by 8 foot high cell and ordered no one to speak to me
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After Sergeant Hayward had searched my car and called in another officer to come in, and after my car had been thoroughly searched by the other officers, Detective Ondrak approached me at that time and informed me that he was going to seize certain items from my car and told me that he was going to attempt to get a warrant or a complaint or something of that type.
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against me for possession of burglary tools. At that point, Sergeant Hayward or another officer, I'm not sure, searched me for the first time, handcuffed me, put me in his vehicle, read me the rights off a little card he carried on his console, and drove me downtown to the Salt Lake County Jail.
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And the experience of coming over here is one of those, you know, those good things, bad things. I wouldn't, you know, if I hadn't come over here, I probably wouldn't be looking at a new trial in the Carol Durange case. Yeah. And a whole bunch of, a whole number of things have opened up.
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I mean, it's not that I was quaking in my shoes. I felt that I couldn't stop them from doing what they were doing, that they were going to go ahead and do it no matter what I did. They were intent. The questions from Sergeant Hayward and the other officers at the scene indicated that They believed that I was involved in some sort of activity, and they were hostile about it.
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The questions seemed hostile to me, indicated to me that they were going to do damn well what they pleased, and I did not... You didn't see any point? There was no point.
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I didn't see how the heck I could stop a half a dozen uniformed armed officers from searching my car.
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I think that about covers it. I have no further questions. Mr. McKay? Thank you, Judge. Just a couple of things. That's not the first thing you told Hayward, though, when he asked you what you were doing in the neighborhood, did you? What? Excuse me? He asked you what you were doing in the neighborhood, and you didn't tell him right off what you were doing in the neighborhood, did you?
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I understand. What was that response? As I recall, the response, I don't know when it occurred... was that I had been in the neighborhood drive-in movie.
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I said my response to him was that I had been in the vicinity at a drive-in movie.
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And you followed that up. Let me see if I understand your testimony correctly. You followed that up with another story, didn't you? Yeah, but restate the question. Well, did you tell Hayward anything else after you told him that you'd been at the drive-in movie? You do recall your testimony during the courtroom proceedings in Utah, do you?
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I'm not sure what you're referring to. I mean, really, it's a broad question. If you try to be more specific, I can help you out. Do you recall your testimony in Utah? I recall testifying in Utah.
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Do you recall the testimony? Judge, does that have to be talked about by either the officers at this hearing or by the testimony of the judge? You don't cross-examination any of the things. We've got a direct pinpointed question of issue of fact. The court has to. And that's, I think, a valid question. Overruled, you may proceed. Do you need me to freshen up your memory a little bit, Mr. Bunyan?
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And quite frankly, that's when I decided to represent myself. At least I got to, you know, get out to go to the library, you know. There's only situations where, you know, concrete, solid steel door with a little window and the food slot. I mean, this was worse than the hole. Honestly, Al, this was worse than the hole. Yeah. In Max, because there you can at least talk to people and see people.
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I think if you could be asking the question again, I'm not sure if you're asking, but I can try. I'm asking you on kind of an initial question, and I don't mean to be confusing. Do you recall your testimony in Utah? If you don't, say so, and I'll try to refresh you.
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Well, if you can give me a specific question, I don't think it would be difficult for me to sit here and quote you verbatim what my testimony was in Utah.
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I understand. I can appreciate that. Let me see if this refreshes your mind. Do you recall testifying in Utah? that on the evening in question you were eating dinner and watching television until 12 midnight or 12.30, which time you decided to visit a friend.
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That upon arriving at that friend's house, you noticed the lights were out, you decided not to waken her up, and you proceeded to drive around for a while. You ended up in the Granger area where you decided to smoke some dope.
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You're on now. Excuse me, but if he's going to ask me a question, I will object to the summarization of the entire line of questioning.
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If I've sufficiently refreshed your memory, say so, and I'll stop. You want to tell us about that testimony? Do you recall that, mister? Do I recall the testimony? You apparently do.
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You just told the court there was lengthy questions and answers about that one. All I'm saying is that I don't recall the testimony specifically, but I can say that in general that I can associate what you're saying with the trial in Utah. Okay.
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Specifically, do you recall telling the court in Utah that you fled from the officer in order to get the smoke out of your car? Isn't it a fact that you've done all of the research on this particular motion?
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Yes, such as it is. Yes, I have. Have you found some cases on the point?
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I've found too many cases. And the point we're talking about is consent to search, isn't it? That's one of the points we're talking about. actual basis would need to be for a consent search to be thrown out?
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Yes, I'm familiar with it. I am now. I wasn't then. That hasn't colored your testimony a bit. I think you'll find, well, no it hasn't, and I think you'll find if
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And it's worse than Max because they never let, they have to exercise except for the six days I was out on an escape since the 11th of April. So this was building up and building up and building up. And over the months, I'd noticed a number of opportunities to just walk right out. Walk right out, but I didn't know quite how to put it all together.
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I feel like I need to call Officer Hayward just briefly, Judge. All right. Officer Hayward. Sergeant, I guess he is now. Your Honor, do you need me to swear this witness? No, sir. Step out of the witness stand, sir, and be seated.
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I approve this one, Sergeant. The oath is still out. All you may proceed, Mr. President.
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Thank you, Judge. Sergeant, are you familiar with the smell, the odor of marijuana? Yes, sir. How long have you had some experience in this odor?
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I had three years just prior to this date of alcohol and drug enforcement, drug drivers in the state of Utah.
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During the time you were in Mr. Bundy's car on this particular evening, at any time, did you smell the odor of marijuana?
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At any point during your search in the car or around the car, trunk, engine, whatever, did you find any substance that resembled marijuana?
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At any time during your chase of Mr. Bunyan, did you see anything thrown out of the car? No, I did not. for this one. This is a... Just asking if that's the full report and if it's accurate or not.
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Sergeant Hayward, I'm showing you a document list marked as defendant's closed exhibit A1 identification. I ask you to identify that, please.
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That appears to be... Appears to be what? The same document I have here, full document.
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The stop that occurred on August the 16th, 1978? Yes. Who had offered this and the evidence?
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We received without objection Do they have any other rebuttal? No, sir. Motion's closed. Gentlemen, I'm going to take argument on both of the motions to suppress. John, I'm not prepared to argue the law beyond generalities.
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I have a great deal of case material. As I say, I have not had access to library to streamline it, as it were. I would be willing to make a general argument, but we reserve the right to submit to the court a memorandum
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All right. I'm going to rule on both of them until in the morning anyway. I want to hear the argument on both of them this afternoon. There's no more hearing testimony. How about Pecano and Zion? Do that during trial if you want to, Judge. I thought we had reserved that for during the trial. This is all the testimony to be taken on a motion.
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Well, we've got some William Rule questions, but they primarily will be not witness testimony, as I understand. You do have some short testimony. Well, let's take these two motions to suppress in that order. Are there arguments on them now? Judge, would we give you a chance to give Mr. Haggard?
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As you say, I was very concerned about what people would think. And I didn't, you know, people would say, weren't you afraid that someone would shoot you or something? No, it was one of the lower fears in my...
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Yes, I think you should, and we're going to proceed now with the argument on the Granger, and Mr. Bundy, you may proceed. Thank you.
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Your Honor, there's a lot of cases in that box, and they all deal with consent search issues.
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Yes, sir. I'm sure that there's probably that many more that you've missed.
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And I've missed quite a few. We're only dealing with a couple jurisdictions. As I said, I'm going to argue the law broadly because I haven't had an opportunity to
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to complete my research on the status of Florida law, although I'm familiar with the parameters of the consent search issue as they exist here in Florida and those as outlined by the United States Supreme Court and other federal courts.
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Well, we've really basically set the stage. I'm sure you've read left to mighty. Yes, sir. Let's proceed with that, and we'll go from there. You're not going to be far wrong from Florida law.
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Well, I think the, before I refer to the Bustamante case, I think it's important that the court be put in a position of determining whether it's Florida law that applies or the law of the search, the state with a search criminal.
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The conflict should be resolved in the manner of adopting the law of the foreign state of Florida to determine whether a consent in the search that we've heard testimony in today was freely, voluntarily, and knowingly given.
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Well, you've got more of a basic threshold. This court would have to take into consideration the rulings of the Spring Court of Utah, Mr. Bundy, as far as the concept is concerned. And the only collateral attack, or something in the nature of the collateral attack, would be a federal argument. As this court conceives the law, I think the state
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higher years yeah but I don't know that day I came there and I thought a great deal about escape and I didn't know if I had the guts to do it quite frankly and the guard went outside for a smoke and there's not a one person in the whole courtroom you think you'll have to you'd have to see the courthouse and the windows are open and the fresh air is blowing through and the sky was blue and
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Constitution, if you're well aware of, concerning full faith and credit and finality of the arguments as it relates to seizure of the goods under the forum of where they're seized. This Court would consider that the only possible collateral approach would be on the basis of some additional federal requirement maybe not brought to the attention of the Utah Court.
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However, so that the record is patently clear, I'm going to proceed with the concept that both arguments, or all three arguments, are in fact open. And I'm not going to close you out on that. Brevity has never been the keynote of this trial and probably never will be. So I'll hear whatever you have to say.
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They're directly involved in the search, which did not come to the attention, or I would tell the court that these issues did not come to the attention of the Florida Supreme Court, or the Utah Supreme Court. However, I understand that the court has read the Supreme Court's Chief Justice Ellett. Chief Justice Ellett did not find that the search ruled on by the trial court was legal.
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The legal finding of Chief Justice Ellett in State v. Bundy was that there was evidence sufficient to justify the judgment of seizure and certain the search and seizure issue involved in the utah case i think what we have here is simply a badly written opinion and one which is self-evident relies on virtually no case law and a very highly complicated appeal and so i will say only
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in determining the legality or illegality of the search that occurred and is the subject of this motion. Let me go to the Bustamante case because it's so often referred to and because it's so important in consent search cases.
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The jury could have recommended either death or life in prison for Theodore Bundy. His mother pleaded to save him.
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My Christian upbringing tells me that to take another's life under any circumstances is wrong. And I don't believe the state of Florida is above the laws of God. Take can be very useful in many ways to many people living. Gone from us would be like taking a part of all of us and throwing it away.
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The jury wasn't persuaded. In less than two hours, the same men and women who had convicted him of killing two sorority sisters had this recommendation while an unemotional Theodore Bundy listened.
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We, a majority of the jury at Miami-Dade County, Florida, this 30th day of July, A.D., 1979, recommend that the court impose the sentence of death as authorized by the Florida Statute 775.082, subsection 1, so say the majority, Rudolph E. Tremel Foreman.
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And I said, I'm ready to go. And I walked out the window and jumped out. And I started chugging. And I had no plan. I had nobody helping me. I had no money. I had no nothing. Just ran right up into the mountains. But anyway, you know, when I was captured, recaptured, they brought me back in.
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A judge in Miami today followed the jury's recommendation and sentenced Theodore Bundy to die in the electric chair for the murder of two coeds. Bundy is the 136th person under death sentence in Florida. Ed Rabel reports.
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Before pronouncing the sentence, Judge Edward Cowart let Bundy make a statement.
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I'm not asking for mercy, for I find it somewhat absurd to ask for mercy for something I did not do.
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So I will be tortured for and will suffer for and receive the pain for that act. But I will not share the burden for the guilt.
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In imposing sentence, Judge Cowart cited the savagery of the crimes and what he called the indifference of the defendant.
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This court independent of, but in agreement with, the advisory sentence rendered by the jury that has hereby imposed the death penalty upon the defendant, Theodore Robert Bundy.
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Then, in an unexpected move, perhaps an afterthought, Cowart stunned the courtroom with some parting words for Bundy. Take care of yourself, young man. Thank you.
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I say that to you sincerely. Take care of yourself. It's a tragedy for this court to see such a total waste, I think, of humanity that I've experienced in this court. You're a bright young man. You made a good lawyer. I'd but you went another way, partner.
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Bundy says he'll appeal. Meanwhile, he has been ordered to the state prison to await setting of the date of his execution in the electric chair. Ed Braybill, CBS News, Miami.
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I spoke very freely about my adventures during those six days because it was something I really couldn't deny. But So one of the investigators, Bill Wargase, came into the room after I'd been there for some time and said, well, would you like to talk about the Campbell case? Would you like to tell me all about it now, Ted? You know, more or less, would you want to confess and all this stuff?
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Because, I mean, I could see the twinkle in his eyes that, you know, he thought that I panicked and now the jig was up and I was ready to bust open. And I told him, I said, Mike, listen, I jumped out of the window because I want to be free.
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And I suppose that, you know, if I have to spend several years behind bars, I might as well spend a little here, a little there.
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uh you know two years ago i could have walked out of a courthouse and uh you know no one would charge me with any crime no one would even have noticed i you know as far as i was concerned i was just what belonged to me and it wasn't a fear of conviction it wasn't you know because i believe then that i believe more firmly now and i will be acquitted and and not only that but i'll get a new trial and derange the iran the irony of it all al is probably the only
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offense that they that they will ever get a solid conviction on me will be the escape yeah right but uh you know i told him honest honest to god i i just got sick and tired of being locked up and i thought you know because way back then i knew that i had this new evidence on durant although i hadn't given anybody yet wondering what to do with it and i knew that the case for me here was good that the case they had was weak but i kept saying to myself
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Ted, in the event that you're acquitted here in Colorado, and you go back to Utah, and let's say you get a new trial in Durant, which I estimate would take three years, because even if we win at the trial court level with a new trial, the state will appeal, and if the Supreme Court overturns, we'll have to go to the federal court, and the federal courts take years and years.
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And even if I get a new trial in Durant, three years from... There was a chance I could be convicted just basically on the publicity of the whole thing. I mean, I'm pretty notorious. And if I was acquitted three, four years from now in Durant's case, what would I have left? It may be unrealistically, but I asked myself, could you go to law school? Could you live?
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Would your friends be able to look you in the eye? Could you be Ted Bundy again? I figured, you know, whether you're free tomorrow or whether you're free four years from now, you're still going to have to make an entirely new life and really hide from your old life, whether you would legitimately or illegitimately. So those were the priorities then. And I wasn't up against the wall.
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Are they treating you pretty good? Well, yeah. Yeah, sure they are. That's good. They've developed this paranoia about me. They have this unrealistic fear that I'm going to escape or something. I can't imagine where they're getting that. Yes, exactly. Let's see. I just wanted to call you up. You know, mainly there's a lot of A lot of things have been happening.
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I mean, it was something I could have done then, something I could have waited to do. But it was just, I honestly just fed, you know, way up above my chin with being the,
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being locked up right yeah just one of those things yeah but uh still there's still the scars and the blisters of my feet i'm sitting here barefoot from running around in the mountains extraordinary experience because i i had thought that i was i mean a pretty strong-willed person but you know believe it or not it was the body that was strong but the mind that was weak that the morning after
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Well, I ran up, you know, like 4,000 feet of very steep hills. Actually, Aspen was on the other side. They didn't know where in the world I was. And I was feeling really good that evening, and I started hiking up. And if I had kept on hiking, I would have been long gone. But a very cold sleet and rainstorm hit me, and I got very cold. Then I went into a state of shock and managed to find a cabin.
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And the cabin was just, you know, there was no way to get into it. And here it was shivering and hungry and cold. It was raining and blowing. And early the next morning, like 7 o'clock in the morning, and I was just sitting there, seriously considering giving myself up. And it was just a complete mind blow for me. Yeah. Just longed for freedom for so long.
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And now, like I was living my ultimate dream, all of a sudden I was willing to throw it away because I was cold and hungry. And I said, my Lord. But I got in the cabin and recuperated, believe it or not, and had a second chance at it. And then I made the wrong turn, and then I hurt my knee, and three, four days of high altitude and cold got to me. And again, my mind got weak.
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And it really kind of, again, when I was recaptured, I just stood there. I mean, I was just, that night, I walked back into Aspen. No one knew me. People got me. No one could recognize me. But I just was totally disoriented. It was like an experience I'd never known before. I just laid down like an animal ready to die. It was just an incredible experience.
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I was disoriented, and quite frankly, I hopped in a car and just drove. I knew I'd get caught. I mean, I didn't want to get caught, but I knew it would happen, but I was just so tired. The best of the alternatives. Yeah, and I just said, well... just to see what happens. And a fluke, actually, they stopped me. But, you know, anyway, that was one of the more profound experiences.
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Certainly did cause a furor. Mm-hmm. And you're spending most of your afternoons in the law library, are you? Oh, yeah.
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I go up there every day for three hours. Huh. And... Imagine you're really learning law. Oh, goodness sakes. Yeah, I'm pretty darn good at the soul process. I won a couple fairly significant victories on Friday. Let's see, I go last Friday in court. And I suppose that I've learned that I've learned what the pitfalls of being one, of representing oneself are, and so I'm going to avoid those.
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But for the time being, I am doing a great, I am doing the, in the case, and the research. And I think we're pretty successful at, I don't know, considering the kinds of resources that are amassed against me and the, you know, the various law enforcement agencies and
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prosecutors who are working on this case uh i think i'm more than holding my own i think i'm giving him fits quite frankly and and i don't it's not just me i mean i'm not here i'm not you know uh i'm not some genius or anything i think but the fact the matter is you know such a rather decrepit case that they're really having a hard time uh putting it together, to say the least.
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And at the preliminary hearing, she looked at me and she looked around the courtroom and picked an undersheriff as the person she had seen.
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So their case kind of collapsed at that point. Oh, yeah. But right now they're, you know, they're hanging in there. I give them credit for that. Yeah. Yeah. So how are things over there? I've always wondered about you and a lot of my friends there and everything. I heard there was a killing not too long ago.
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You know, the escape adventure, which caused a great furor of activity around here, and I guess some publicity over there. And now we're looking at what looks like a 95% chance of a new trial in the Carol Drange case. And while this case over here gets curiouser and curiouser because...
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Not as yet. It's a rather expensive trip. Aspen's an expensive place to stay.
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It's a short question deserving a long answer. I'm doing well. I feel good. Working hard on my case. Need a lot more sun and a lot more Fresh air, but other than that, I'm doing OK.
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Well, I get to go to the library. It's a 50-yard walk from here across the parking lot to the library. That's my fresh air.
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Well, when I was on the main line, as they say, in medium security, I had a lot more freedom, you bet. A big yard to walk in, and a basketball court, and handball court. Your standard medium security life in a prison is a fairly decent existence, relatively speaking, to a county jail. County jails are, by and large, pretty confined and inhibiting sort of places.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the crime lab isn't gonna test 300 samples of blood from every different location in that house. The purpose of DNA is to identify who is our perpetrator. With Sabrina Teague's blood on his hands, literally, her blood on the knife, DNA consistent with Mr. Kerr and his son Teague on the tire iron.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The DNA evidence that was tested is consistent and confirms what an eyewitness told you and what Mr. Cahir himself confessed to. At the end of this case, you will be presented with all the facts, but you'll also be presented then with jury instructions. Those jury instructions outline the elements that the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As we discussed briefly at Gwadir, the elements for first degree intentional homicide are relatively straightforward. Did Mr. Cater cause their death? And did he do so with intent to kill? Both will be abundantly clear after you hear the evidence in this case. For all the reasons I've stated above, we know our perpetrator. He himself admitted to it. We have an eyewitness with DNA.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He's found unseen covered in blood. It doesn't get any simpler than that in terms of who committed these offenses. His intent to kill is likewise clear. You will hear from the medical examiner about the abundant, vicious injuries these two women suffered. There can be no other intent when you stab someone ten times or more.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She eventually became employed by the U.S. Postal Service and had retired shortly before this savage and senseless crime. She loved ballroom dancing, shopping, and playing the piano. Sabrina Teague was born on December 15, 1992, in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and graduated from Pulaski High School. She was employed at Perkins and wanted to be a social worker.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There can be no other intent when you batter someone so badly with a tire iron and stab them and have them hanging by a rope in the bathroom. What else could Mr. Kare's intent have been but to kill those two women? Likewise with Joel. You won't be asked whether he caused the injury, whether he attempted to do this, and whether he intended to kill Joel.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel has a gaping wound in his arm from a through-and-through stab from a large kitchen knife that went into his chest. The amount of force necessary to clear through someone's arm and then through the chest, what other intent could he have had at that moment but to kill Joel Kennedy? It will be abundantly clear to you when you hear the evidence in this case.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You'll also hear about some of the other collateral crimes that are associated with this that are for your consideration here. And that is burglary. He's charged with burglary or entering a residence with the intent to commit a felony. Clearly entered the residence. You're able to see the area in Sabrina's room where he entered. Without their consent, they weren't home.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Broke through a bedroom window. And obviously his crimes that he committed in terms of killing them and attempting to kill Joel are his felony offenses that he attempted. That was his intent in entering that residence that day. And then finally, there are two counts of bail jumping. Meaning Mr. Kerr was on bond in two other criminal cases.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
One of the standard conditions of bond in those cases is that you cannot commit any other criminal offenses while on bond. You can be released from custody, but there is a statutory condition that you cannot commit crimes while released on bond.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So if you find Mr. K guilty of committing the homicides and committing the burglary, committing the attempted homicide, if you find him guilty of any one of those, he naturally is also guilty of the bail jumping because he was on bond in those two criminal cases at this time. You will also hear about a jury instruction about reasonable doubt, proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That is the highest burden in the criminal justice system. It's the highest burden in our entire justice system, that the state must prove to you that there is evidence to support each element of these crimes beyond a reasonable doubt. We are confident that if you listen carefully to the evidence in this case, and you give a fair and impartial consideration of that evidence,
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
that you will clearly find that the state has met its burden of proof with respect to each of those elements beyond your reasonable doubt.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that is what we ask of you here today, that you give a fair and impartial consideration of all the evidence that will come before you over the next few days, that you consider it carefully in deliberations, and that you render the only verdict that we think is possible in this case, the only verdict, the only reasonable inference in this case,
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The only reasonable hypothesis in this case is that Mr. Kerr committed these crimes and that he intended to commit these crimes and that you will find him guilty.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Lissette. Mr. Cotton?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Good morning, everybody. Can everybody hear me okay? Okay. I wanted to start by thanking everybody for being here for this very important case. As the state indicated, you're here today to decide whether Mr. Koehler is responsible for these crimes and I'm not going to get into the details of the offenses because you just heard a little bit of an overview.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What I do want to mention is that opening statements are not evidence. Opening statements are simply the, and that's why you're not taking notes right now, opening statements are simply the observations of the attorneys. Evidence is what you hear in court. Evidence is what you hear from witnesses who take the stand.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Evidence is what you hear when, whether it's an expert witness or a police officer witness, evidence is what you hear when an individual comes in here and offers their observations to you. We have a system of justice in this country that I think is the best in the world, and it's a very important system of justice. Defendants are presumed innocent at all stages of the proceedings.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You've probably heard about that in your personal lives, and we talked about that a little bit in jury selection, but every defendant is presumed innocent under the law.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In that presumption of innocence remains with the defendant, with Mr. Kher, the presumption of innocence remains throughout the whole trial, only until such time if the state is able to introduce evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. The reason why we have such a standard is because defendants are not required to prove their innocence. In other words,
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She was shy and a fierce protector to those she loved. i cannot adequately describe the lives of hisan and sabrina only a family member and those closest to them can do that sarah may teague has a blog where she is brutally honest about the impact this crime has had on her and gives the readers a glimpse into who hisan and sabrina were
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
some systems have a requirement that a person come into court and start putting on evidence to show why they didn't do a particular crime that's not the system that our founding fathers created here in america they created a system where defendant is presumed innocent and you as jurors despite what you might hear an opening statement are required to follow that very important principle and remember at all times that you are to presume that mr care is innocent of these
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
very, very serious crimes. We'd ask that as you sit here through this trial, this will be a multi-day trial, we're sure of that.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I think the parties will work very hard to make sure we can move the case along for you as efficiently as possible because it's important that things that we can agree on, we'll try our best to agree on those things, but there will be a number of points that we don't agree on, of course, in which time there will be cross-examination of witnesses. Jacob Cahill is the defendant here.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Back on Friday when we did our jury selection, we talked a little bit about a defendant testifying, and I had mentioned during jury selection that, of course, a defendant has a constitutional right not to testify. So a defendant has sort of two rights in that vein, the right to choose not to testify, but the other end of that coin is that the defendant has the right to testify.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And this may very well be a case where, in addition to cross-examining the state's witnesses that they put on, this may very well be a case where Mr. Kerr will choose to testify and give his version of events for you folks. So I want you to keep an open mind throughout the entire case that you're hearing, because the state has the right to go first.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They're the ones that get to introduce the first witnesses. But then we have an opportunity after the state has, they say, rested, we have an opportunity to present witnesses if we might choose to do so, including at a second phase of the trial if it ever got to that. But of course, in the first phase of the trial, Mr. Kerr as a witness testifying about his version of events.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The most important thing from our perspective, folks, is that you keep an open mind throughout these proceedings.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We hope that all of you can follow your oath very seriously by remembering that Mr. Cater is presumed innocent at all stages of the proceeding, keeping an open mind about what you're hearing, and realizing that in many cases, you've heard the expression, there's two sides to every story.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I would go so far as to say there's oftentimes a bigger picture of what's happening, and sometimes we have to think very carefully about what the bigger picture is when we're making the decisions that are so important in this case.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And I would urge you to remember that there's always a bigger picture at play that we believe will, by the end of these proceedings, the end of this week, will be evident to you folks, and you'll find Mr. Cater not guilty. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We will now begin with the state calling its first witness to elicit evidence on the issue of guilt. Mr. Lassay, your first witness.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Your Honor, in lieu of a witness, the state is going to play the 911 calls. It's my understanding that parties have stipulated that the 911 calls can be entered without the need of someone from dispatch to confirm them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. All right, so that's the agreement. Go ahead, Mr. Lassay. Thank you.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It is quite profound and I'm grateful to have been given a little insight into Heesun and Sabrina's lives. I encourage you all to read it. There will be a link in the show notes. Also, Sarah May took the stand and described Heesun and Sabrina to the court. Jacob Kare took the stand for direct and cross-examination.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
1-3-6-8? Oh, shit, he's trying to break into the house now. Okay, you said 1-3-6-8. Remember the old drive? 1-3-6-8. Okay, and someone's trying to break into your house? They already broke in. I'm standing here. I'm bleeding out. Okay, do you have a weapon? Yes.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What does he have? I don't know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He's running outside the door. Okay, do you know who he is? How many people are in your house right now? Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And can you guys tell us, where is he right now?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Where is the male?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Where did he stab you? Okay. Okay. Is that anyone else who gets injured?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
My girlfriend and her mom are injured. What happened to them?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They got stabbed, I believe. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Where are they right now? Are they by you? No. Okay, and you don't know, can you hear them at all? No. Okay, do you have a description of them? Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, and long brown hair with black shirt and blue jeans? Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right. And do you know if he came in the vehicle or on foot?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And do you... You didn't see it. How did he get into the house? Does anyone know him?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know. He was here when we got up here.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. How long ago did this start happening?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It was right when we got home about 15 minutes ago.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. And you don't know where they were stabbed at all?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Okay. Does he get any money to pay for getting a lot of help? Do you have any other descriptions? Did he have any tattoos? What type of knife did he have? I don't know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know. I think it was at the kitchen, right? Okay. I don't know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Did you hear anyone else in the house? No. Do you know if there was another person that had a knife or anything?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't know. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And when is the last time that you saw your girlfriend and your mom?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
My girlfriend was fighting with my mom. I don't know if you don't hear that. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
How long ago was that, do you know?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
About five minutes. I think he might be gone. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It is quite long, he rambles off topic, and there are a lot of sounds from the microphone. I debated on whether to cut some of it out, but in the end, I kept it all because the interaction between him and the attorneys, as well as getting a feel for his mental state, is interesting. Just like with any trial, the sound level and quality varies.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Call her. Okay. But you didn't hear, you don't know where the other two females are at, correct? No, no, no.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you said he had long brown hair and his clothing was a black shirt and blue jeans?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, I believe so.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. And you didn't notice any tattoos or any scars on his face or anything?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. All right. And you don't think you knew him either? No.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Um, it's my girlfriend's ex-boyfriend.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It's your girlfriend's ex-boyfriend?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Do you know his name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Jake? I don't know what his last name is.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What is his first name, do you think?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, what is your girlfriend's name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What's her last name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
T-E-A-G-U-E. Okay. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right. And you're still locked in the bathroom?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, I am. We're going to stay here until we have to get here. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right, you're doing the job I'm calling, okay? And you were stabbed in the arm, you said? Yes. Okay, how was that for you?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
A lot of blood.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, you're losing a lot of blood?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, I have a towel on it, but it's okay. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The paramedics will be able to clean that up, okay? Okay, thank you. Do you hear them there? No. Okay, I'm going to stay on the phone with you until you hear all the stairs, okay?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, do you know if any of the doors are unlocked?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, they're not. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Doors aren't locked? No.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, is there a garage door that they can use to get in?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, there is a garage door. What is that?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you have a spare key outside or anything?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There is a spare key on the front door of the new block.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, do you have any idea where he lives? No. Okay, and do you hear anyone yet?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They need to help us kick the door in.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You said, okay, you're saying they need to kick the door in?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What is your name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, J-O-E-L.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And your last name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Like I said, they're going to be able to clean you up, okay? I'm sure of that.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Oh, it fucking hurts.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe it. Do you hear anyone outside yet?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This one is pretty good overall, and even though on the stand K.R. claims he was able to fix the audio of his lengthy interview with the police, I was not, so I didn't include it.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't hear anybody.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. What type of vehicle should be in the driveway?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
A gray Chevy Cobalt. Is that it? Are they here?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We do have officers in the area, but I'm gonna wait for them to get in the house to disconnect, okay?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You, oh, you're not with your girlfriend. You're not sure what type of vehicle that male would be driving if he had it?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I do not know, no. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then was it your mom that was in the house with you or was it your girlfriend?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It was my girlfriend's mom.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you know her? What's her name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He's son. H-E-E-S-U-N. Okay. T. T-E-E-G? T-E-A-T-U-E. Okay. Thank you very much.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, not a problem. How are you doing?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I've been in a lot of pain, so this and that are okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. And it's bleeding control at all?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What's going on?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I just looked at it. All I did was look at the towel and spray.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, don't look at it. Just keep it covered and hope your medics get there. Okay. Okay, and do you have pressure on the itch to stop the bleeding?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. And where is it on your arm?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. I appreciate that you all showed up today. This is obviously extraordinary times and we're taking extraordinary measures here in the courtroom to make sure that everybody feels safe. And I appreciate that you showed up and that you're willing to hear this case. It's very important to the state, it's very important to Mr. that you do that.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
On my left arm, yeah.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. You're doing good, Joel, okay?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what was the last thing that you felt after you knocked him out?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She's in the shower, in the bathtub.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What bathroom are you in? Is there two stories?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It's two stories. There's two bathrooms on the first floor.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm in the bathroom. That's in the first back of the house.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. And so you think you're in the back of the house bathroom and she might be in the front?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, she's in the front bathroom.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Rachel, have you heard anything yet?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I think he's gone though.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I think he's gone.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Oh, that's fine. I'm gonna stay on the phone with you, like I said, until officers come and approach you. And you, Rachel, you don't have any weapons on you, do you? Um, I got one loaded. Okay, I need you to put that away.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I closed it on the counter in the bathroom.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I closed it on the counter in the bathroom. Okay. Should I close the door?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know. I know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They're trying to make sure that you're safe, okay?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Are they here? Is there any way to find out?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, they are, but they're going on the perimeter, okay? They're just making sure that no one else is in the house and that you stay safe.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So that's why I'm staying on the house with you, and we're going to make sure that you cover that room, okay? Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What did you say? So what... Okay, are you, are you still there Joel? Yes.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, what did you say was the name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He went inside the home and attacked them when they come in.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. It's good that you called right away, okay? Just remember that, Joel. Yeah. Okay. And how much are you bleeding, man?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm still bleeding heavily. Okay. And my heart is numb.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, just hold on one second, okay, Joel?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, Joel, I need you to walk towards the front door to the front entrance. Let me know what you're saying, okay?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Are they inside?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, they're asking you to walk towards the front door so they've already secured the house, okay? All right. Let me know when you're going to open up the door. Did you open up the door?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As the court indicated, the purpose of an opening statement is to sort of provide a guide map or an outline for where we think the case is going to go. It's not an opportunity to make arguments at this point, and my statements aren't evidence. They merely introduce to you what I think the evidence will show. Sitting at council table is highly unusual for me during an opening statement.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. All right. Please come up to the witness stand.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy Justin Raska, R-A-S-K-A.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy Raska, can you state for the record how you are employed? I'm a patrol deputy with Brown County Sheriff's Office. And how long have you been with the Brown County Sheriff's Office? About eight and a half years. And were you working in your capacity as a sheriff's deputy on June 7, 2016 at approximately 8 p.m.? Yes, sir.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And do you recall being dispatched to a scene at 1368 Riverdale Drive in the village of Hobart? Yes, sir. When you responded to this scene, were there other officers or deputies on scene?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I responded immediately when it was dispatched out. I don't think anybody was on scene immediately, but there were people on scene prior to my arrival.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, who was on scene when you got there?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Officer Radloff with Hobart Lawrence PD, K-9 Deputy Brad Dernbach with Brown County Sheriff's Office, and right before me, Deputy Miller, Eric Miller with Brown County Sheriff's Office.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, do you know if there was an O-9 PD officer there when you arrived yet or no? I don't know if he was there yet, no. Deputy Raska, I'm going to show you what has been marked as Exhibit 1 at 1. Can you describe that photograph?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, kind of in the center of the photograph is the residence, 1368, that we responded to, County J or Riverdale Drive, kind of at the lower corner of that address. After you arrived, where did you go? I met with Eric Miller. I believe we met with Deputy Dernbach and Randy Radloff somewhere in the area right down here, kind of in front of the address.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then I stayed with Eric Miller and I approached the house. Okay, and from which direction did you and Deputy Miller approach the house? Deputy Miller and I approached kind of along this tree line. It's kind of like a hedge or shrub tree line along here. Deputy Miller and I approached kind of in between the tree line and this neighboring house, 1378.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And it was just the two of you who made that approach? Correct. And for the record, that was the driveway to 1368. It's right in the middle. There's a tree line just to the right of that driveway, and you approached to the right of that tree line. Is that correct? Correct. And then I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1, App 2. Can you indicate what's depicted in that photograph?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is the residence of 1368 right here. Residence of 1378 right here. Riverdale Drive or County J. John. This would have been, I believe it was probably this path right through here that Deputy Miller and I approached 1368.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The court indicated we're taking measures to make sure everything can be heard. If you are at all having trouble hearing me or understanding what I'm saying because of the mask or because of the lack of volume or whatever it may be, please raise your hand and alert the court and let us know. You're here today to hear the case of the state of Wisconsin versus Jacob Kayer.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, so just indicating with the laser pointer, again, just to the right of the tree line and right of the driveway. Upon your approach to that residence, what did you observe?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy Miller and I were approaching the residence. We observed a female body laying face down in the grass behind 1378.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So I'm showing you what's been previously marked as Exhibit 1F3. What is depicted in that photograph?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is believed to be the female victim that we had located as we were making our approach.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And when you observed her, can you describe what you saw?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Saw a female that was laying face down in the grass. Immediately began giving commands to that female, not knowing what her involvement in the situation was whatsoever. Gave commands to the female and received no response whatsoever. Deputy Miller and I then approached the female, and I observed her again laying face down in the grass.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I could see that she had wounds on her back that were indicative of what probably would have been stab wounds.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you made that observation of the female line there, did you see any other parties around?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you're with Deputy Miller at that point? Correct. The two of you both approached her together? Correct. What do you do with her body?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe I checked for a pulse initially while she was still laying face down on the grass. I did feel what I thought was a pulse, so I rolled the female victim over onto her back then, so her chest was exposed to me. I again observed a couple wounds that were indicative of what I believe to be stab wounds.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And I felt for not only a carotid pulse, but also a radial pulse on her wrist as well, attempting to observe any signs of life. In addition to feeling for a pulse, did you attempt any life-saving measures yourself? I did. I began CPR when I could no longer feel a pulse.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
At some point in time, did Rescue arrive on scene to take over for you?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, Rescue arrived on scene along with a couple other officers or deputies from different agencies, and they took over the life-saving portion of the female victim while I continued to kind of search the area after that. After Rescue came and took over for you, what was the next thing that you did?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Because trials can be quite sterile when talking about victims, I wanted to take a few minutes and describe these two women who were so undeserving of the crimes perpetrated against them. Sarah May Teague, his son's daughter and Sabrina's sister, said it best when she said, They were more than the ex-girlfriend and the mother.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I met up then, I believe it was with Deputy Famry, who was on scene, or it could have been O-Night Officer Logan Webster, actually. There were a couple outbuildings that were behind 1378, including...
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Bring you back to exhibit 1F1 to allow you to show where the outbuildings are.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, there's a garage, and I believe, I don't know if this is a shed or what else was back there, but there were a couple outbuildings behind 1378. Obviously, being in the immediate area of where one of these victims were laying, we wanted to search the area to make sure that the suspect was not actively in one of those buildings.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What you will hear is that on June 7th, 2016, Jacob Kerr turned 1368 Riverdale Drive in the village of Hobart into a real-life horror movie. Sabrina Teague and her live-in boyfriend Joel Kennedy, they walked on the scene of that horror movie at 8 p.m. that night. When they entered the home through the garage door, Sabrina walked into the home. They could hear the shower running in the bathroom.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you were searching the outbuildings behind the residence that you'd indicated as 1378, did you notice any parties on scene at that time? No. After searching or clearing those outbuildings, what did you do next?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I met up with Deputy Famry kind of in the driveway of 1368, kind of in this area right here, right on the corner.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's the area still kind of blocked by the tree, but just in front of what, the garage of 1368? Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We had then checked this garage as well. I believe this is the garage for 1368, one of the detached garages for 1368. So Deputy Samary and I then checked that garage, and we weren't able to locate anybody inside that garage as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's the garage to the right of the residence on this photograph? Correct. All right. After doing that, what was the next thing that you did?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I had waited, we waited around briefly in front of the address, kind of in that driveway area again, for Lieutenant McCauley and K9 Deputy Dernbach. Deputy Dernbach had decided that at that point he wanted to attempt a track for the suspect using his partner pal, his K9 partner pal.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So I had met with him, and him and I kind of went off on me covering him, me following him, and we conducted a track kind of around the yard of 1368.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you aware at that time when you started the track if the complaining witness had exited the residence at that time? No, I wasn't aware of that at that time, no. That was not part of your responsibility? No. I want to bring you back to 1F3. Did you make any observations of the area around the body of the female? No, no, I didn't.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Back on 1F1, if you could use the laser pointer to depict the area where you believe Deputy Dernbach was when you started the track.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you mind if I go back to that last question? I was thinking of the environment immediately around her. I do recall that there was blood in the grass around her, around her body. I don't know if that was part of an answer to the question you were looking for, but specifically when I would kneel next to her to perform CPR, there was blood on the ground next to her in the grass.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you note any direction or any direction of travel or anything of that nature? Not that I recall. No, it was kind of pooling around here. All right. Back to 1F1, if you could note on there the area where you began the track with Deputy Dernbach. Yes, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So we started in a counterclockwise manner. We kind of... Again, you would have to refer to him and how he works his partner. But we kind of moved in this direction around the yard, along the tree line, him looking for whatever reaction he would look for with his canine partner, and I was essentially his cover officer.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
His primary responsibility was that dog and finding that track, and I wanted to make sure that he was safe.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
At some point in time, did Deputy Nirenbach indicate to you that his dog had sort of developed a track or a scent? Yes, sir. And do you know about where that location was when the dog started a specific track?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It would have been in this back corner. I don't know exactly where we went into the tree line, but essentially we stopped. We went into the tree line a few feet, maybe five feet, and stopped, and Officer Dernbach then asked for more units because he made it appear as though his dog was indicating on something in that tree line. And did other units arrive for support? Yeah.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy Miller then arrived back at our location along with Officer Logan Webster.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And once those two cover officers arrived along with yourself and Deputy Dernbach, what did you do?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We continued on to this wooded line. I was at Deputy Dernbach's rear. So, again, providing safety cover for him who obviously had the responsibility of following his dog. We went into the wood line a little bit, and Deputy Dernbach indicated that his dog was hitting heavy on a specific area inside the wood line. Can you describe the vegetation in there? Thick, dark.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I remember, I think I took my flashlight even out at some points because it was dark in that area. Considerably darker than standing out in the yard. I remember it wasn't like grown-up vegetation. It wasn't very large trees, but it was thick cover in there.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And do you recall about what time it was when you started to make that track? I don't remember the exact time frame.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It wouldn't have been probably around the 8.30 time. It wasn't too much longer after we had arrived on scene. CPR was given to the female victim, and then we met up with Officer Deputy Dernbach. It shouldn't have been too much longer after that point.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And once the track was initiated... Did the dog locate a subject fairly quickly? Yes. And do you know on that overhead roughly where the subject was located?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe it was going to be back in this corner right here. I remember there was a kind of a small clearing area with tall grass or weeds. The male suspect was laying down in, and that's where the dog had indicated, and that's kind of where Deputy Dernbach was giving his commands to him.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Can you describe the process then after you kind of discovered the male? Who makes contact with him first?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Sabrina walked to the first floor bathroom. where her mother's dead and badly beaten body was located. She took out her phone to call 911, started walking back toward the kitchen area where Joel was located. Mr. Kerr jumped out of the door in the laundry room and attacked them with a knife. This is a real life horror movie description. Mr. Kerr
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, so Deputy Dernbach was giving out commands to the male. At that point in time, he has to determine whether he's going to let his dog engage that suspect. K-9 PAL did engage the suspect, and then... Yeah, Deputy Miller and I came up, and one of us took, I believe Deputy Miller took his left arm. I took his right wrist. We got on each side of the suspect.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
First and foremost, we wanted to make sure that he didn't have any weapons on him. He wasn't complying at first, and then we were able to see that his hands were empty. That's when we went hands-on with him, and we were able to secure one arm. I secured the other, and we were able to put handcuffs on him.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you and Deputy Miller are the two people that put him in handcuffs? Yes. You indicated that he wasn't complying immediately. Was it a relatively short period of time where there was struggle, or how did that go down?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, when Deputy Dernbach had initially given him commands, it was show me your hands, indicated that he probably saw him in the grass, show me your hands. There was no compliance there. He wasn't indicating that he wasn't giving up to law enforcement. He wasn't showing us his hands or anything. or showing that he was there. So that was the time of non-compliance.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Past that, then when K-9 PAL engaged with the suspect, then we were able to see that his hands were empty and we were able to go hands-on with him and no longer had our weapons out at that point.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you able to make any specific observations of the male's person after you went hands-on with him?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, I remember he had damage to, he was wearing blue jeans. He had damage to his blue jeans as far as where the canine would have engaged. I believe that would have been on his left thigh kind of hip area. And there was a lot of blood. There was a lot of blood not only where the canine had engaged, but I remember his pants being full of blood as well. He had a bandage around one of his hands.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I want to say it was his right hand. And then he was wearing some sort of bandana face mask kind of hanging around his neck.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Was it covering or concealing his face at that point in time? No, I don't believe so. Do you recall any of the officers, or specifically you yourself, did you observe Mr. Kerr before? The dog engaged with him?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I could see that there was something or someone in the grass. I wasn't able to make any observations or identify somebody specifically in the grass, especially where the canine had indicated. The canine doesn't indicate for that general area. He was very specific on there was somebody laying right there in the grass. After the handcuffs were placed on Mr. Cater, where did you go with him?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We had assisted him off the ground. We had never walked him. Yeah, the previous photo. We had walked him over to this clearing area right here. This is Exhibit 1, App 6. Just on this side of the tall grass or wheelie area. I was on one arm. I believe I was on his right side. I believe it was Deputy Miller that would have been on his left side then.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And his hands being behind his back, we were able to kind of carry him underneath his arms, underneath his shoulders, and carry him to that area. He was upright, but he wasn't exactly walking on his own power at that point. And what happened when he got out into that clearing? Looked him over for injuries, asked him if he needed rescue if he had injuries.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't remember any straightforward responses. I think there was some incoherent mumbling that came from him. But there were no obvious signs of injury other than that left thigh hip area that that pal had engaged him on.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you involved in any search or processing of Mr. Kerr at that scene? No, I had actually turned him over.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were Green Bay PD officers that were arriving on scene. I believe there were Green Bay PD officers that arrived on scene. We kind of handed him off, the suspect, over to the officers at the time just because...
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
For me personally, it was something that I had just been involved in finding him and it was that high stress situation where we hand him off to another officer and they can perform the search and follow up that's needed.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have an opportunity to observe the suspect's face?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I remember his face being almost like he got in a fight. I think he had like a fat lip or bruising around his mouth. He had long blonde hair kind of disheveled like he had been hiding in the woods. Didn't appear as though he had just cleaned up and had walked out of the house.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right. After handing him off to the Green Bay police officers, do you have any further involvement at that point? Not in that case, no. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No further questions at this time.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. Mr. Cotton?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Good afternoon, sir. You were present when Mr. Kayer was found in the tall grass there on that picture, right? Correct. Do you know how he got to that tall grass? I do not. Do you know whether he walked there under his own power or whether somebody else brought him there? I do not. You never saw him go there, it would be fair to say. Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you talked about, I think you used the phrase incoherent mumbling. Did I hear that correctly? Correct. Who was making incoherent mumbling? Mr. Taylor. When did that happen?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That would have been once we had made physical contact with him, once we had taken him into custody, there were simple questions that I had asked as far as what is your name, and I didn't get a coherent response from him. Can you elaborate what it sounded like?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
attacked both sabrina and joel in the living room joel kennedy is an eyewitness to this event who survived the brutal attack from mr care not unharmed mind you but with significant injuries himself a struggle ensued in the kitchen mr kennedy was able to go outside to the garage and grab a snow shovel The struggle continued in the garage area as Sabrina and Mr. Kare poured out into the garage.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I wouldn't be able to replicate it. I don't know what it would have sounded like. Okay, so not actual words you could even make out. Correct. Okay, so when you say mumbling, you're not sure what was even coming out of his mouth. Correct. And you said you could tell that his face looked like he had been in a fight. Did you say that?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know what my exact words were there, if he had been in a fight. But it looked like, like you said, he had a fat lip. He had... He wasn't, his fat lip, he was sweating. It wasn't like he was clean cut just walking out of the house.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
A fat lip would be consistent with somebody being struck in the face or the head, fair to say? Did you examine his body with your, did you do any physical examination to see whether he had any lumps or bruises on his head?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You just saw the fat lip and the disheveled appearance? Right. Would it be fair to say there was no drugs or contraband located on Mr. Kayer in that area? Not that I saw. And the observations of Kayer, you noticed that his jeans were torn, and you attribute that to the dog biting him, right? Correct. Okay, because you saw the dog engage with him. Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When Mr. Kayer was found in that area there, I'm assuming you were walking up to that location. Is that fair to say? When he was found in the grass? Yeah. It kind of threw the woods. Okay. And did you ever at any point see him running?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. You saw him laying there? Correct. Would it be fair to describe him as passive in a way in terms of how you found him? Yes. No active resistance? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Besides initially not showing us his hands, actively trying to hide his hands or keep them underneath his body, once the canine engaged with him and we were able to see his hands, after that he never fought with us. He didn't show any other kind of active resistance towards us.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Got it. He wasn't struggling with the officers. Right. And in terms of him laying there with his hands... You can't say what he did or didn't hear. Would you agree with that? Correct. Okay. So K.R. is laying there in the grass. The dog bites him and he pulls his hands out. Fair to say? For the most part, yes. Okay. And there's no weapon in his hands, right? Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you can see that because you're looking with your own eyes, right? Correct. And then that's when you go hands-on and start handcuffing him. Correct. And as you are handcuffing him, he's not twisting around trying to get you off of him or get away, right? Correct. So he complies with that process, would be fair to say? Yes, sir. And then you did do a report in this case, didn't you, sir?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, sir. And you had a chance to review it before your testimony today? Yes, sir. Okay. Fair to say your report is an accurate summary of what took place? Yes, sir. You described Mr. K or do you not as partially walk under his own power. Did you use that expression? In my report? Yeah. I believe that's what it says in my report, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The male suspect was conscious and breathing and would only partially walk under his own power. Yes, sir. Is that accurate? Yes. Can you explain what that phrase means, partially walk under his own power?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, I remember his legs being underneath him, as I had described, me being on his right-hand side. My left arm was kind of hooked underneath his shoulder, his right shoulder.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
sort of strength or power to keep him up from from either collapsing back down on the ground falling back down on the ground and get him moving out into the the field itself he didn't stand he wouldn't have been able to stand unsupported on his own okay these things that you observed mumbling incoherently
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
One or more injuries to the face, disheveled appearance, partially walking under his own power. Would you agree with me that those things are consistent with somebody who suffered a head injury? Potentially. As a deputy, you've responded to accidents where people have had such injuries, right? Potentially, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, thank you.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Any additional questions, Mr. Lassay?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy, you also had an opportunity to come into contact with suspects who are not fully cooperative with you when you're attempting to arrest them and move them. Is that fair to say? Yes, sir. The same types of behaviors, like not walking under his own power and not choosing to fully cooperate with officers, is that also consistent with a non-cooperative suspect? Yes, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you able to specifically determine which was the case during this incident?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. No further questions. Thank you.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right. Thank you. You may step down.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do not move.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel struck Mr. Kare in the face with the shovel. There are physical injuries consistent with that. Mr. Kare went to the ground and Mr. Kennedy ran back in the house. He closed the door to the garage. He ran past the bathroom where his son, T, lay dead.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put the gun away.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put the taser away.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put the taser away.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put the taser away. Stop resisting! Stop resisting!
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Lay on your stomach.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put your hand behind your back.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have a witness to call?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I do have another witness prepared, yes. Okay. I would say we'll call Deputy Miller. Eric Miller, M-U-E-L-L-E-R. Deputy Miller, can you state for the record how you are employed?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I work for the Brown County Sheriff's Department. I've been there a little over seven years.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what is your current position with the Sheriff's Department? I'm a patrol deputy. Were you working in your capacity as a patrol deputy with the Sheriff's Department on June 7, 2016? Yes, I was. Shortly after 8 p.m., were you dispatched to a call in the village of Hobart? Yes, I was. On Riverdale Drive? Correct. Do you know what time the dispatch came out? I believe it was around 8.13 p.m.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what was the nature of the call based on the information provided to you by dispatch?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It came out as a weapons call. There was a male with a knife and there were multiple people that were stabbed.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy, when you arrived on scene, were there other officers present? Yes, there was. Who was present when you arrived?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy Dermbach was first on scene, and then I arrived shortly after, and then Deputy Raska arrived shortly after me. Do you know if there were officers from other departments on scene as well? There was from Hobart Lawrence and Oneida PD.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you arrived on scene, what did you do?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I was advised to start the approach with Deputy Raska. We were on the east side of the residence and approached to the north.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As you made your approach toward the residence, what did you observe?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We then approached to the back door of this residence, which the lights were on. We knocked multiple times, but there was no one home. No one came to the door. What did you do after that? I then walked to the rescue squad that was parked in the driveway right here, and then I was approached by the complainant, Joel Kennedy.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
into his son's room where he closed the door and locked it, into his son's bathroom in her master bedroom where he closed the door and locked it, and he called 911. You will hear that 911 call. You'll hear the panic in his voice. You'll hear him huffing and puffing, explaining how blood is spurting out of his arm.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel had walked to your location?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He did. And did you speak with him at all? I did for a short time. I was asking the description of the suspect, which he stated the guy's name was Jake. He was wearing blue jeans, a dark-colored T-shirt. And he had long brown hair. Did you make any observations of Joel's person?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I noticed that he was holding his left hand, and I believe he was applying pressure to a wound that he had on his left arm, which was bleeding heavily. Were you there to provide any assistance to him? I did not. Shortly after he gave me the description, rescue personnel attended him, and then Deputy Reese arrived and went with rescue and Joel.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After you spoke briefly with Joel, then what did you do?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I was then asked by Sergeant Lowell that Deputy Dermbach needed another deputy or two for a track in which I walked to the west of the tree line and I met with Deputy Dermbach, Deputy Roscoe, and I believe an Oneida officer in the corner of the residence, the northwest corner.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you indicate you walked up the tree line on the left side of the driveway to the left side of the back of the residence where you met with the other officers? Correct. Do you know if Deputy Dernbach had already been conducting a track at that point in time?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
From what I was told, I believe he was, and he was about to head into the tree line, which is where he stopped and waited for more officers. So you arrived to assist him? Yes, I did.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What did you do once you arrived with Deputy Dernbach?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I was providing lethal cover on his left side as we approached into the tree line with the canine.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
About how long after you arrived by Deputy Durenbach to provide cover did you ultimately locate an individual?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It wasn't very long. From what I recall, we were going straight north, and then the canine flirted to the left, and then shortly after that is when we engaged the suspect. Did you see the suspect prior to the canine engaging with him?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I did not. What are your observations when the K-9 engages?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
At that point, officers started giving commands. We tactically approached the individual. Deputy Raska obtained suspect's left arm, and then I went and took custody of his right arm, and then he was placed in a handcuffs eventually. Was the male cooperative with your commands? He was not.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He was not showing his hands at first, and it took a little bit of him resisting before we got him into custody.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After the male was placed in custody and the handcuffs were on him, what happened then?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We then walked him out to a clearing, which is where he was searched, patted down, and then we brought him from there to the rescue squad that was waiting on Camelot Court. Did you assist in bringing him to the clearing? I was walking with him, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you make any observations of the defendant's person as he was walking to the clearing?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I know that he was very muddy, very dirty, appeared to be soaked in blood. Blue jeans are very dirty and ripped. He also had some sort of a black mask that was around his neck that appeared to be soaked in blood as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel Kennedy had been stabbed with a kitchen knife that went in one side, out the other, and into his chest. as he lay on the floor in the kitchen before getting up, kicking Mr. Kerr off and having the struggle ensue. He knew that Sabrina had been left with Mr. Kerr in the garage area of the home.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1G6. Can you identify that photograph?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That appears to be the area that the suspect was taken into custody. And at the top of that photograph, what can you observe sort of near the top of the photograph? This would have been the way that we walked out to the clearing.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then Exhibit 1G7, can you identify that photograph?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That would be briefly where we stopped and some items were taken off of him.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then we continued walking to the Camelot Court. So you believe he was the area where the cone indicates and there's sort of a pile of things. You think that's the area where he was searching and items were taken off of him? Correct. Did you do that or is that a different? I did not. But you were present when that happened? Correct. From that location, where was he taken?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We walked to Camelot Court. Do not know the specific address, but it was down at Camelot Court where a rescue was waiting.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
How was he acting when you were transporting him to the rescue?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He wasn't walking fully on his own. The officer had to assist him with walking him to rescue.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you able to gauge whether that was because he was not cooperative or whether he had any injuries or concerns? I do not recall. I also want to talk to you about your observations of his clothing. What do you remember that he was wearing?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Blue jeans, a dark-colored T-shirt, and he at some point had a bandage or a rag wrapped around one of his hands or fingers, and then that black face mask was around his neck. Was a concealer covering his face when you had contact with him? Not when we made contact, no.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You made observations of them being dirty or blood-soaked, is that right? Correct. At some point in time, did you actually come into contact with that clothing?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I did, yes. How did that happen? At some point, I believe it was a Green Bay officer handed me the bag of the shirt and pants that were cut off by rescue, along with some other items, a watch, a belt, and that blood-soaked rag was also handed over to me. What did you do with those items? Held on to them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I rode with rescue to the hospital, and they stayed in my possession until I later entered into evidence at the Sheriff's Department.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You mentioned that you rode with rescue to the hospital.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Where were you physically located? I would have been sitting in the seat directly behind the cot that's in the back of the ambulance. So you were in the ambulance with Mr. Kerr? Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you make any observations of Mr. Kerr while he was being transported by rescue?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He was making some statements in the back of the ambulance. Comments such as, fucking rapist. Why didn't you fucking kill me? Ike, where is he?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They... Can you describe the nature of the comments? I mean, obviously, you talked about the words that he used, but what was his tone of voice like? What was his speech pattern, things like that?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I would say a lot of yelling, screaming, not making a lot of sense with what he was saying. Who else was in the rescue squad with you? There was three rescue personnel, I believe a McKenzie Teske, an Olson, and I do not recall the... Third individual. Were you the only officer who was in there? Yes, I was. And then what happened when you arrived on scene at the hospital?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Once we arrived, Deputy Neurath had been following us from the scene all the way to the hospital. And at that point, when the doors opened, he was behind with the squad iPhone and he began a video recording. What did you do after you arrived at the hospital and Deputy Neurath began filming? I followed them. We went into the ER, into a room where staff attended to him.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Sabrina eventually opened the garage door and the struggle ensued and poured out of the garage into the driveway area, into some foliage and trees outside the residence. There is a blood trail leading There's a blood trail everywhere. This entire house is covered with blood.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What was your role on scene at that point? Basically just standing by, still holding on to that evidence, begging it. Did you make additional observations of the defendant while he was at the hospital? Still making a lot of weird comments, kind of yelling, screaming a little bit yet.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
At some point did his demeanor change while he was at the hospital? Not while I was there, no. You indicated that you had responsibility for the clothing. What did you end up doing with the clothing that had been cut off the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We had bagged it, and then we had later replaced it into the evidence at the sheriff's department, which being that it was still soaked in blood, we put it in the drying chamber. Who was we? Me and Deputy Neurath. Did you do that together?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, we did. And that was at the Brown County Sheriff's Office? Correct. Describe what it is to put something in the drying chamber.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Basically, you're taking the clothes out of the bag that it was first put in, putting it on a rack, putting it in this drying chamber, turning it on, locking it, and then I later put the key into evidence.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As you were putting those clothes in the drying chamber, were you able to make specific observations of the clothing itself?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Still notice that was very dirty, torn. Face mask, it was a black face mask with a skeleton design on the front. And then there was two holes cut out where your eyes would potentially be. No further questions at this time.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Cotton? Good afternoon. So, you had, as I understand it, been present in the ambulance when Mr. Kerr was transported to the hospital? Correct. And that's when the state was asking you about things that you heard. One of the things I think you said was, Ike, where is he? Correct. What does that mean? I have no idea.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
had you been asking something about had you brought anything up to trigger that type of comment i did not would we call these spontaneous utterances in a way you could say that sure okay i guess what i'm asking is was law enforcement engaging with mr care in the ambulance or were these just things that were coming out of his mouth just things that were coming out of his mouth
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You had said, I think, not making a lot of sense. Is that a fair way to describe it? Correct. Did any of it make any sense to you? From the time of the ambulance, no. Okay. And then the ambulance, how long would you say the ambulance ride to the hospital took? 15 minutes. And was Mr. Keir the whole 15 minutes just making statements, or were there periods of time where he was quiet?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There's a blood trail leading from the garage, down the driveway, into a tree line, and into the backyard of the neighbor's residence where Sabrina's body was located by law enforcement officers just minutes later. The knife covered in Sabrina's blood is located in that tree line by law enforcement officers the next day.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I would say there was periods of time where he was quiet. Like I said, the statements that I have in my report are the ones that I remember him saying.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have a recording of any of the statements that were made? I did not. No body cam on you? No. And you didn't use a personal phone or department phone to capture any of that, did you? No. So when you write the statements in your report, it's after you're done with your work, you went and typed the report and put the statements in there, right? Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then Mr. Lassay asked you about Mr. Kerr at the hospital. You did see him in the hospital, right? Correct. So were you one of the officers or deputies who was present from the transfer out of the ambulance into the operating room? Were you present during that? Correct. And you made a statement just a few minutes ago that at the hospital there was, quote, lots of weird comments.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is that your testimony? Yes. I don't recall saying weird comments. Okay. How would you describe the statements Mr. Kerr was making at the hospital? Statements that weren't making much sense. Okay, so you don't think you said the phrase weird comments, but we can say not making sense? Correct. Okay. Not logical? Correct. And you said Mr. Kerr's demeanor did not change while he was at the hospital.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What did you mean by that?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
From the time that I was with him at the hospital, I wouldn't say that he... I mean, there's times where he would stop talking. But the comments that he was saying just wasn't making sense.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, in the same vein of Ike, where is he, fucking rapist, those types of things. Correct. Okay. Okay, that's all.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Any additional questions, Mr. Lucek? No, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
exactly where Mr. Kerr diagrammed it in a map of his confession to law enforcement. This is a real life horror movie, ladies and gentlemen. It is not a mystery. We know exactly who caused these deaths. We know exactly what happened. Unlike many cases, this is not a situation where it's a whodunit. There is an eyewitness to the events that transpired, Joel Kennedy.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They were fully complex human beings, beautiful people, and I just want people to know that, and I love them. Hee-sun Teague was born in South Korea on January 13, 1952. Hee-sun, or Sunny as she was also known, immigrated to the United States at 30 years old and married James Teague. Together, they had two daughters, Sarah Mae and Sabrina. James died in 1999.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Kerr is found by law enforcement about 30 minutes after their arrival, hiding in the woods behind the house, covered in blood, where he's found by a K-9 unit from the Brown County Sheriff's Office. He is arrested. He is brought to the hospital, where he gives a detailed, many-hour confession to Sergeant Holschbach of the Brown County Sheriff's Office.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
DNA evidence is located on the knife, confirming that that was the knife that killed Sabrina Teague. Detailed DNA evidence is found on a tire iron located inside the house, which confirms that his son's blood is located on the curved end of that tire iron. And DNA consistent with Mr. Kayer is found on the handle. Sabrina Teague's blood is located on swabs from Mr. Cater's hands, both of them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is not a whodunit, ladies and gentlemen. You have an eyewitness. You found on the scene covered in blood. A confession and DNA evidence. Over the course of the next few days, the state will present a number of witnesses to you to demonstrate that Mr. Kerr committed these offenses. As indicated, you will hear first the 911 call.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You will hear Joel Kennedy calling 911 and explaining to them what happened, that they were attacked in their home. You will hear them identifying it as Jake and identifying Mr. Kerr as Sabrina's ex-boyfriend. Joel will explain to you how he had met Jake on one prior occasion at Walmart.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There was a brief argument between Mr. Kare and Sabrina, but he was able to identify then Mr. Kare as Sabrina's ex-boyfriend. He will tell you Mr. Kare had never been to the home during the seven months that he lived with Sabrina at that residence. In addition to Mr. Kennedy's statement about what happened, You will hear about how law enforcement officers arrived on the scene shortly thereafter.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They came upon the scene making a tactical approach based on the nature of the call that came in from Mr. Kennedy that it was a weapons call. The officers who approached from the right side of the residence walked up into the neighbor's backyard where they saw Sabrina's body lying in the backyard. They rolled her over and attempted to administer aid, but she was deceased.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After that, other officers made contact with Mr. Kennedy at the front door of the residence, cleared the residence, walked Mr. Kennedy out of the residence where he was cooperative with law enforcement. He was removed to emergency services. Officers cleared the residence and began a perimeter search for Mr. Kayer. Shortly thereafter, officers located Mr. Kayer on scene.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He was taken into custody by the officers, brought to a clearing where he was searched, His pockets were emptied. In his pockets, there was rope, cord. In his pockets was Sabrina's cell phone. His clothes were covered in blood. The officers will tell you that his pants, his shirt, a mask or a head covering that he had, all had significant blood staining on them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The following is a condensed version of the 2020 trial for the murders of Sabrina Teague and her mother, Heesan Teague. 26-year-old Jacob Kayer was out on bond for two crimes. One of the conditions of that bond was that he commit no further crimes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Kerr was transported to the hospital and gave a detailed statement.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
to sergeant holschbach and sergeant yankee of the brown county sheriff's office it's not a situation where after 12 hours of being grilled he finally said yeah i did it you got me it is a detailed statement that indicates many aspects of this that are corroborated by the forensic evidence recovered on scene and the photographs that are taken by the state crime lab when they come to that scene he talks about the water running both the shower and the sink
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In the bathroom where his son Teague's body were both running when law enforcement arrived. You can hear it on the 911 tape. Officers will tell you that they turned that off. Mr. Kerr can talk about washing himself and washing his feet during his statement. Socks are recovered in the sink of that bathroom with his son Teague's blood on them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Kerr is barefoot when he's recovered by law enforcement officers. He talks about stabbing. There is a video. You will see a video of Mr. Kare taking a pen and reenacting the stabbing motion toward Sabrina Teague's neck and upper torso, consistent with a large stab wound to Sabrina Teague's neck, which unfortunately you will have to see in the photographs from the medical examiner.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Hee-sun married again, and he died in 2014, leaving her a widow once again. Hee-sun struggled for the first 15 years of her life in the United States. She endured through it all and went to college, secured a good job, and provided very well for her daughters. Hee-sun went to college and earned her CPA certificate. The exam for this course is difficult and rigorous.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He would talk about, in addition to the stabbing, that there was blunt force injuries, that he recalls swinging a hammer or an object like a hammer, not a hammer, but something like a hammer. He recalls swinging that. He believes in the bathroom, consistent with the tire iron recovered, and the significant blunt force injuries to Hisantique that you will observe.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He talks about riding his bike to the scene. He talks about putting on his headphones and getting angry and getting worked up listening to Hollywood Undead. You will find that his bike is recovered on scene. Officers noticed it in the tree line as they made the approach from the left hand side. He photographed his bike turned over on scene.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You will note that there's an open window outside of Sabrina's bedroom.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
clearly visible from the outside of the home that the window is ajar and then from the inside that that window is broken there's grass inside as if that was the area for forced entry we will also learn that officers recovered a backpack unseen a backpack filled with miscellaneous items mr care's identification card his driver's license inside that backpack along with knives scrapers
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
a rusty railroad spike, a hammer that is duct taped and fashioned as a weapon with a carabiner on it. There are zip ties recovered in the residence by Hesontigue's body, consistent with the zip ties found in Mr. Kerr's backpack. The tire iron used to kill Hesontigue is wrapped in duct tape. There's a roll of duct tape in Mr. Kerr's backpack.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There's duct tape around that hammer with the carabiner and fashioned as a weapon. He details the rage that he has and the anger that he felt that night, that he had been in an argument, that he rode to that scene angry. He provides a diagram of where these events took place to law enforcement. The law enforcement officer taking his statement had not been to the scene.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This was a Hobart-Lawrence scene where DCI, the Division of Criminal Investigation for the State, was on scene. The sergeant who took the statement had not been out there. They were relaying some information back and forth, but he had very little information. They had not found the knife.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Kerr provided a diagram outlining exactly where the knife would be located, and that's right where they found it. And he recalls Sabrina being stabbed in some foliage. completely consistent with the crime scene that we located. She stumbled out from the garage into the driveway, into that tree line where there's blood staining, and into the neighbor's backyard.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you hear that statement to Sergeant Holmsbrock, you'll hear parts of it. You'll hear Sergeant Holmsbrock talk about the statement, and then you will actually hear parts of it, and you will see the reenactment. And then you will see the evidence from the crime lab. You will see the pictures from the scene corroborating the information given in that statement.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It will be abundantly clear to you that Mr. Kare is the person who caused the death of his son and Sabrina T. And that he did so with intent to kill them. And again, you will hear then from the crime lab, from the DNA analyst who will confirm. You'll hear DNA evidence isn't perfect, and we talked about this in voir dire. There's blood all over this house, right?
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Raytown is a city in Jacksonville County, Missouri, with a population of 30,000. One of those 30,000 was Anne Marie Harrison, age 15 at the time this story begins. Anne was born in Kansas City, Missouri, on February 22, 1974. She was a sophomore honor student at Raytown South High School, attended church with her parents and two sisters, and played on a softball league.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
At around 7.10 a.m., the school bus driver pulled up and honked the horn, but Ann wasn't there, only the belongings she had set on the ground. Janelle Harrison, Ann's mom, checked in the house, the backyard, and with a neighbor who Ann was friends with. Ann was gone, with no sign of a struggle, and she had just been 60 feet from her front door.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
The samples were sent off to be examined, and once they returned, Nunley's hairs matched those that were found on Ann's jacket. The hairs on the floor of Nunley's mother's basement also matched samples taken from Ann. On July 28, 1989, a Jackson County grand jury indicted Roderick Nunley and Michael Taylor on first-degree murder, forcible rape, kidnapping, and armed criminal action.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Before the trial, Taylor escaped custody, and when he was apprehended by the officers, he said to them, Why didn't you let me go? You know what I'm facing. After Nunley was indicted, he agreed to a guilty plea and to go before a judge because he wanted to avoid being sentenced by a jury, even though the prosecution informed him that he could be sentenced to death.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Nunley's hearing began on January 29, 1991. He took the stand and testified that his intent was to only rob Ann of her purse. He admitted to the abduction but denied raping her. He claimed that it was only Taylor that raped Ann and that he had only pretended to in order to appease Taylor. The reason he murdered Ann was because she could identify him.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
The hearing lasted three days and Judge Alvin C. Randall sentenced Nunley to death. Ann's family was present during the hearing and it would be the first time they had heard the gruesome details of the crime. Taylor's hearing was on February 9, 1991. Just like Nunley, he opted to go before a judge and plead guilty to all charges.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
He was also warned that the judge could come back with a sentence of death. Taylor testified that he wanted to let Ann go, but he was pressured by Nunley to murder her. He described how she resisted getting into the trunk of the car and begging them to call her parents. Taylor's mother pleaded for his life, but in the end, Judge Alvin C. Randall sentenced Michael Taylor to death.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Even though Nunley and Taylor were thoroughly briefed on the fact that once they pled guilty and went before a judge, they couldn't change their minds. Despite this, in October of 1991, both Nunley and Taylor appealed their sentences, claiming that the judge was drunk and the prosecutors were racially biased.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
The defense attorneys claimed that the two men received the death penalty because Ann was white and Nunley and Taylor were black. Each appeal that was introduced was denied. Michael Taylor was executed on February 26, 2014. He had no final words. Ann's father and two of her uncles were present. On September 1, 2015, Roderick Nunley was put to death.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Ann's father and two friends were in attendance.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
After the execution, Anne's friends, many of whom are married and have children of their own now, released statements to the press and on Facebook about Anne. One described her as a shy, family-oriented girl who was nice to everyone she met and would help anyone who needed it, adding that she was an excellent student, softball player, and she loved music.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Janelle called Anne's father, Bob Harrison, who was working at the time, who in turn called the police. Before long, ground and aerial searches were launched. Michael Taylor and Roderick Nunley, friends since their teens, both had criminal backgrounds, mostly in car theft and other petty crimes. Nunley was thought to be involved in a murder, but charges were never filed.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Sometime in the early morning hours of March 22, 1989, they stole a dark blue 1984 Chevy Monte Carlo. Drinking wine coolers and smoking weed, they drove through the streets of Kansas City, stealing T-tops off of cars and trying to come up with other ways to make immediate money. While winding through the Kansas City neighborhoods, they spotted Ann waiting for the bus.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Nunley was driving and Taylor, seeing Ann's purse on the ground, told him to pull over so he could snatch it. Nunley pulled next to Ann. Taylor climbed out of the car and asked Ann for directions to an address he just made up. Leaving Anne's purse and other belongings on the ground, he grabbed her and forced her into the passenger side floor of the car. Anne did not fit the profile of a runaway.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
She was in the school band, had a boyfriend, and held a job as a bagger in a grocery store. As word got out of her disappearance, flyers were distributed, and it was breaking news on local TV and radio stations. This was a quiet and safe neighborhood and the community rallied together and created a reward fund and soon a tip line was established.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Witnesses began calling in and one tip mentioned seeing a dark Monte Carlo in the area. Nunley and Taylor drove away with Ann on the passenger side of the floor. Nunley removed his sock and it was put around her mouth to quiet her. Eventually, they ended up at Nunley's mother's house, where they pulled into the garage, which had an entrance to the basement.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Once there, Ann was blindfolded and they made her crawl on her hands and knees into that basement. Through the tip line, the police received many leads, most leading to dead ends. Through the generosity of individuals, organizations, and businesses, a reward was established of $9,000. Once inside the basement, Ann was bound with wire.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
The sock was removed and she was led into a basement where she was assaulted by Taylor. Because of her age, he was having a difficult time of it and asked Nunley to bring him some lubricant. After he was done, Nunley entered the room and attempted to assault Anne, but it is unclear whether he was able to due to him being high at the time.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Annie, as she was known by those closest to her, was a good girl.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
After they were done, they allowed Anne to put her clothes back on and they put the blindfold back on her. Taylor questioned her as to whether her family had money, and she told them that her family would pay them to get her back. All they had to do was call them.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
The two men asked her for her phone number and pretended to write it down, and of course she could not see that they weren't due to the blindfold. She must have been feeling some hope and relief that she would be able to go home to her family. They led her, crawling on her hands and knees, back to the car so that Nunley's sister, who was home at the time, wouldn't see her.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Nunley and Taylor opened the trunk and told Ann to get in, but she resisted. She told them she didn't want to get in the trunk. The men told her she had to so that she wouldn't be seen, so with their assistance, she got into the trunk. The two men discussed what they should do next. Taylor didn't want her to be able to identify them, so he told Nunley to go into the house and get a knife.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Nunley returned with a butcher knife and a smaller serrated knife. Nunley attempted to slice Anne's throat with the butcher knife, but it was too dull. So he stabbed her in the throat instead, twisting it in the process. The men took turns stabbing her in the chest and the neck. When they were done, Anne was struggling to breathe, but she was still alive.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Taylor stood there watching her suffer while Nunley returned the knives to the kitchen and disposed of the wire used to restrain her. Once Nunley got back to the car, the trunk was closed and the duo drove away.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Thank you for listening to Crimatorium, the place where crime resides. Crimatorium can also be found on YouTube.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Police were called about an abandoned vehicle.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
When officers arrived and plates were run, the owner showed up with the keys. He poured some antifreeze in the radiator, then opened the trunk to put it away. He took a step back and said, there's a body in the trunk. Officer Williams looked in the trunk and saw the body of a white, fully clothed female lying partially on her back. Her left side leaned up against the rear of the trunk.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Her left arm was extended out. Her right arm was laying across her chest. Both hands were stained with blood. A white colored button with Disneyland written on it was found underneath a denim jacket that was lying partway over Ann's arm. Ann had been wearing souvenir buttons on that jacket on the day she disappeared.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Ann's uncle, who was the captain of the Kansas City Police Department, was called to the scene to identify the body. It was Ann Marie Harrison. The vehicle was towed to the police garage with Anne's body still in place to protect any evidence. After the car was processed for fingerprints, Anne's body was taken to the medical examiner's office.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Anne had multiple stab wounds to her chest and neck area, as well as a large laceration to her throat. The car the body was located in was a blue 1984 Monte Carlo. Anne had been missing a total of 37 hours before her body was discovered. In the ensuing days of the investigation into Anne's death, the police received dozens of leads.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Several police departments in the surrounding area canvassed the neighborhoods, but came back empty-handed. Several suspects who were known for auto theft were eliminated. The investigation was extensive and the murder of Anne Harrison was big news in the area.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
On closer inspection of the Monte Carlo, they noted that the ashtray, the dome light and the radio were missing and the steering column was broken. The interior car light bulb was sitting on the rear passenger floorboard. On June 29, 1989, an anonymous call came into the tip line saying that they knew who killed Ann.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
It was 23-year-old Mike Taylor, who was at that time in the Missouri State Penitentiary for parole violation, and 24-year-old Roger Nunley, a name Roderick Nunley sometimes went by. The caller stated that Ann was murdered in Nunley's mother's basement in Grandview, Missouri, and that Nunley had slashed her throat.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
He stated that he informed the police of this crime so that he could collect the $9,000 reward. The caller said he would call back the next day, June 22nd. When he did, he identified himself as Kareem Abkar Hurley. Because Hurley knew the details of the crime that only the killer would know, the detectives convinced him to come into the station.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Hurley told detectives that when Taylor and Nunley spotted Ann, their only intent was to steal her purse. Instead, they put her in the car and drove her to Nunley's mother's house. He stated that no blood would be found in the basement because the two men killed Ann in the trunk of the car. A warrant for Nunley and Taylor's arrest was made and each would be held on a $125,000 bond.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
A warrant was also obtained to search the home of Nunley's mother, where they swept the carpet and took photographs. Taylor was locked up at this time, so locating him wouldn't be a problem. However, it was unknown where Nunley was. Officers discovered that Nunley, who worked as a housekeeper at Baptist Memorial Hospital, failed to return to work after June 21st.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Nunley's supervisor provided his contact information to the officers. They learned that Nunley was behind in his car payments and the credit company was trying to locate him and the car so they could tow it away. They would let officers know if they located Nunley. Officers visited Taylor in prison and confronted him about what Hurley had told them.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Taylor went silent, then asked if he could call his mother. Taylor told his mother that he was being questioned about a rape and a murder, and after a few minutes of speaking, he told her he loved her and hung up. Taylor then said that his mother told him that if he did this, to tell the truth.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
He then proceeded to tell the officers that he and Nunley were on a drug binge that night, and once Ann was spotted, Nunley kidnapped Ann by putting her over his shoulder and shoving her in the car. He described blindfolding her with a sock that Nunley had removed from his foot once she was in the car. When they got to the basement of the house, her hands and feet were tied with a cable wire.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
On the morning of March 22, 1989, Ann walked to the end of her driveway a little before 7 a.m., set her purse, flute, and backpack on the ground, and waited for her school bus to arrive. That morning, she was wearing her favorite jean jacket, adorned with souvenir pins, pink slacks, and matching socks.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
According to Taylor, Nunley removed Ann's clothes at some point and Ann was crying. He said Nunley tried to keep her quiet and in Taylor's words, he had intercourse with her. When Nunley asked Taylor if he wanted to do the same, Taylor claimed that he declined. On second thought, he decided to take his turn but claimed he didn't finish the act.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
After they were done with their assault, they untied Ann and allowed her to put her clothes back on. Ann told them to call her parents who would give them money. The two men gave her hope that they were going to call them by pretending to write down the phone number she gave them.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
The sock was then placed around Anne's face and she was led back to the car, crawling on her hands and knees, where they made her get into the trunk. Taylor stood over Anne and watched her as Nunley went into the house and retrieved a butcher knife and a serrated knife. He drew a picture of what the knives looked like.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Taylor claimed that Nunley grabbed Anne by the hair and tried to slit her throat with a butcher knife, but because it was dull, it didn't work. Nunley gave up on slashing her throat. He turned to stabbing her in the throat until it went all the way through. Nunley then stabbed Anne in the chest and again in the neck, then encouraged Taylor to do the same.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Taylor stated that he said, nah, that's just crazy, man. But then he thought, well, we're in this together. So he started stabbing her too. Taylor watched as Ann's eyes rolled into the back of her head and she was struggling to breathe. The trunk was closed and the two men drove off in the car with Ann still in the trunk.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
It would later be determined that Ann was conscious for about 15 minutes and stayed alive for two hours after her attack. The interview was taped and the officers collected hair and blood samples before they left.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
It wasn't long before Taylor's fellow inmates caught word of what he was accused of and they attacked and raped him so violently that he required surgery and 80 sutures to repair the damage. A second search warrant was issued for Nunley's mother's house and when officers knocked on the door, nobody answered, so they made entry by removing a window.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Once inside, they made their way upstairs, where they discovered Nunley's sister and mother. His sister stated that Nunley couldn't have been involved because she was at home at the time and didn't hear or see anything. The officers found and removed two knives that matched the description given by Taylor. They swept the floor and photographed the entire basement.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
On July 8, 1989, officers received a tip that Nunley had been spotted near Troost Lake and were dispatched to the area where one of the officers spotted him. As the officers approached Nunley, he took off on foot between some houses in the area. After some time, the officers caught up to him and he identified himself as Roderick Nunley.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
He was transported to the police station, booked, and interrogated. The officer started off by telling him that Taylor had confessed to everything. Nunley asked for video proof of this. Nunley watched the video of Taylor not only divulging the events of that day, but putting the blame on Nunley.
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The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
This infuriated him, and he echoed the tale that Taylor had confessed to earlier, only he put the blame on Taylor. It was painful for officers to listen to the physical, mental, and psychological torture Ann went through that day at the hands of these two men. Nunley waived his rights and allowed the officers to take samples of his hair and blood.
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And about when did you first meet her?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
September 2015. I had my son there.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My question again, did you ever make a representation to anybody that you were in special ops? I'm reading your deposition. Does that refresh you?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It states that I didn't.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sir, I asked you that question. Does that refresh your recollection?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I asked if that refreshed his recollection. Please re-ask the question and please answer directly. Okay.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You read your answer, correct? Correct. My question to you is just this. Did that refresh your recollection whether or not you ever made that representation?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And I stated it says I didn't.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You represented... No, I said... No, question. No, I said to anybody, that I don't know. That I don't know. Correct? Were you going around telling people... Uh, Mr. Townsend, you've been special ops.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was not saying I was special ops.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you ever tell Lori again that you'd protect her from Michael?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You had discussed with Lori about getting a divorce, correct?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Are you married?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I said me and my wife were in a bad spot and we had talked about a divorce.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, Lori wouldn't be satisfied with that explanation, would she? She'd want a little more from you than that, correct? Correct. They had to broach this topic, make some representation that you guys were going to be an item in some fashion, correct? No. Okay. Did Lori was content with you saying, well, I'm going to stay with the wife. I'm just over here having some fun.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How long have you been married?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The agreement in the beginning was. Sir, is that what the relationship was? Not the question. When I'm asking.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How old was your child?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Let me approach. Come on up for a sidebar, please. Thank you.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mr. Townsend, you were describing the relationship you had with Lori. You're having this affair with her, correct? Correct. Okay. Tell us about this relationship. What your understanding was with Lori Shaver?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They were supposed to be friends with benefits, no strings attached.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Friends with benefits. Okay. And yet you're still contemplating a divorce at that time, correct? Correct. Okay, so there was a discussion.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
A discussion about what?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
About five.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, your position is you had no knowledge of Michael Shaver being shot, correct? Correct. Okay, you weren't in the house, correct? Correct. Now, you knew the Shaver children, correct?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was the kind of homework relationship?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I didn't know them. Like, on a personal basis, I knew she had children. I only seen them a handful of times.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, a handful of times. You're there two, three times a week, okay? The kids were in school. Now, you're there at their Christmas break, correct?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The kids were not there during school. Okay, during their Christmas break. I wasn't there during Christmas break.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was Michael shot? I don't know that. Okay. Did you ever make a statement indicating to the contrary? I'm going to show you your deposition again, sir. I know what I told you.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Second question. Yes, sir. Page 16. I want you to read lines 3 through 7 to yourself. Yeah.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Your position was, I have no evidence that I was nowhere near during the time frame or whatever happened to Michael. So now you're saying, I don't know when he was shot, but I know I wasn't around there during that time frame. Correct? So you're saying, I don't know when this man shot. But you can't pin it on me.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My wife works. I'm retired out of the military.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But if you read farther, I said that.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is that what you just said?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when you met this shaver, At the park, did she have any of her children there?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Your Honor, I'm trying to answer the question.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, you can rehabilitate your own witness. All right, and Mr. Wiggs is correct. So please answer the question directly. Once the question is asked, answer it directly and then move on. Thank you.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Right? So you don't know when he was killed, but you're saying you can't pin it on me. I was nowhere around without knowledge when he was killed. Correct, sir? That's what you stated in your deposition.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, it's not.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I just read it to you. You just read it yourself.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But like I said, if you read farther... Sir, that's what you said, right?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can we approach with the transfer?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sidebar, please.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did the state advise you of a date that Michael Shaver was shot? No. Mr. Townsend, did you get a tattoo in 2016?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I did not.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you have any tattoos at all?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What would you describe them?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It's an Indian dress chief with a compass and a map, roses.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you have her roses? Tell me about that one.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The roses are in the tattoo.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. What's the full tattoo?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I just described it.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Or may speak up.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I just described it.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He said it's roses in a tattoo. What's the full tattoo?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It's an Indian chief with a map and a compass.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Did you see Miss Shaver at the store in 2016 approach her to show her your new tattoo?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She had her son.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. You never did that? No. Mr. Townsend, your family own any property in Silver Springs area? No. Okay. Do you have parents in Ocala? No. Okay. Do you have any parents in the state of Florida? Yes, I do. Where do they reside?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you chat with her? Did you start some sort of relationship? What kind of developed from there?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Crystal River.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Crystal River. Okay. They own any land? That their house is on? Yeah. How much land? Five acres. Okay. All right. That's all I have. Thank you, Chad.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. Thank you. State?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Getting back to the whether or not you made a prior insistent statement about knowing when Michael Schaefer was killed, let me show you your deposition transcript, and can you just go ahead and... Sustained.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Please ask the question. If the question isn't asked properly, then you can approach the witness with the deposition. Please inquire.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In that deposition, tell Mr. Wiggs repeatedly that you do not know when Michael Shaver was killed. Correct. In that statement that Mr. Wiggs was reading about I have evidence that I was nowhere near during the time frame or whatever happened to Michael Shaver, did you say at least four times after that that you did not know when he was shot? Correct.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She approached me and asked if it was okay if her son played with my son.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
As far as September, your memory about the Wayne Torsmith, Ms. Shaver... At deposition, you said you didn't remember, and today you said that you first met her in the park in September of 2015. So what happened in between the deposition and today that helped with your memory?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Went back through all the old text messages to refresh my memory because this is going on almost 10 years ago. I don't remember everything I did during that period of time. So to refresh myself, if I was asked that question, I would know how to answer it. So I went back through all the old text messages and figured out when I seen Ms. Shaver.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you see her in the courtroom here today?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. Thank you, Mr. Wiggs. Thank you. Please call your next witness.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
State recalls Detective Jared Strickland. All right, Detective, can you just reintroduce yourself to the jury?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sure. Good morning. Corporal Jared Strickland with the Lake County Sheriff's Office.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, going back... talking more about the Facebook records that you analyzed.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can you point her out and identify her by something that she's wearing?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
As a quick reminder, how many different IP addresses were shared with the Michael Shaver account and the Lori Shaver account over that two-year period that you analyzed?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There were 13 IP addresses between the two.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Looking at Lori Shaver's Facebook records first, Shortly after Mike Shaver's disappearance in November of 2015, was there record activity showing Lori Shaver basically returning on to Facebook or becoming active on Facebook again?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, there was.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And specifically, what indicated that?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She's wearing a black shirt with white.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There was a photo of her that was posted, a selfie that she took of herself, and the comments that were on that photo were essentially saying things like, Welcome back. It's been a while. Happy to see you back.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The state is showing defense what has been previously embarked by Lieutenant Patience States RR. Witness States RR, do you recognize that exhibit?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I do.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what is that exhibit?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This is a selfie photo of Gloria Shaver.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is that the one that we just discussed?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it is.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was that taken from the actual Lori Shaver Facebook records that are already in evidence?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it was.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. This time the state move states are in evidence. It states 46.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Jeremy Townsend.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Which seat is she sitting?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And the objections that are raised are motion to exclude digital data. All right.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Next to Mr. Wiggs.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Objections ever ruled.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was the date of this selfie post and the comments about the... November 11th, 2015. Now, on November 11th, 2015, did she make another post?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, she did.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Witness states SS. Is this the status that you referred to?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it is.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And is that taken from the Lori Shamer Facebook records that are already in evidence?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you would communicate with her, would she call you Jeremy or would she call you something else?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it was.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The state would move state's 45th SS in evidence to state's 47th.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Any objection?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I have no objection. All right.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Objection is overruled.
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Go ahead. And can you go ahead and read that status?
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Of course. Sending a huge thank you for those who've served our country. My dad, grandfathers, and to my brave, loving man. Can't get any braver than those men and women. So much respect.
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Of course, in the investigation, was there ever any indication that her husband, Michael Schaefer, was in the military? No. Was there ever any indication that her boyfriend at this time, Jeremy Townsend, was in the military?
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What is the significance of November 11, 2015?
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Veterans Day.
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Over the next couple of months, did she post anything on Facebook regarding her workouts or physical activity?
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Yes, she did.
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Do you currently have an attorney?
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After that first time you met her at the park, did you see her again?
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Showing defense what has been previously remarked for identification as states TTUU and BB. Showing witness states TTU.
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identification you recognize that post tp specifically what is that post the photo of lori shaver on a looks like a weight bench and it was that from her facebook records that were previously entered into fs yes it was and states you you what is that also a selfie photo of lori shaver in a vehicle wearing workout clothes
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And does it reference in the content of that going, having something to do with Wartell without reading what it is?
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Yes, it does.
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And what about states VV?
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It's a photo of a workout machine in a barn or a shed.
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Now, are all three of those from the Lori Shaver Facebook records that we've been talking about previously?
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Yes, it was.
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This time, Your Honor, the statement moves states TT... 48, UU, into evidence as 49, and VV into evidence as states 50.
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And was that also at the park or was that at another location?
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Any objection? Objections are overruled as to the three exhibits.
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Very quickly, before we move on to publishing those photos, I do want to go back to the activity from November 11, 2015. Based on review of the IP logs, was there any other activity other than posting photos or status updates associated with that date?
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It was at the park.
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And what was that?
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Michael Shaver's activity also, I believe.
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Was there anything on... Lori Shaver's IP logs that is already in evidence that refer to her changing her Facebook profile name.
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Yes, her name was changed.
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I'm going ahead and publishing States 47, previously marked as DT. Is this the workout picture that you referenced?
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At some point, did you all exchange phone numbers?
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Can you go ahead and read the post associated with that?
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Slowly getting back into the weights and was happy to see these muscles come back alive today. Smile through the pain.
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What was the status posted there?
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Mentally preparing myself for leg day with the most awesome personal trainer. Not going to lie, I'm a bit scared. It's a love-hate relationship. She makes me swear, LOL, and I don't do that often. What date was that posted? January 2, 2016.
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When approximately was that?
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And finally, that table machine, when was that posted?
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May 14, 2016. Also...
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contained in the Lori Schaefer Facebook records, was there photographs and other posts associated with her engagement to Travis Filmer? Yes. Was there also photographs associated with the ceremony that occurred on December 31, 2016, between herself and Mr. Filmer?
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About the third time I met her. Text messages.
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Showing the fence would have previously been marked as States S.S. recognize that post? Yes, I do. And is that post from the Lori Shaver Facebook records that is already in evidence?
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Yes. When did you retain him? January 2022.
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Yes, it is.
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And first of all, can you read the date that this was posted?
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August 12th, 2016.
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Was there any sort of message that was associated with these photographs that were posted?
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Yes, there was.
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What was that?
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God has gifted us with a great blessing, that of bringing us together. We are excited to now publicly announce we are engaged. We have appreciated all the love and excitement from our close friends and family. We are so blessed. I'm going to be a filmer. And what date was that? That was August 12, 2016.
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Were there also posts associated... installation of the fire pit and ultimate cement slab. Yes. I'm showing you what has been previously been marked as seats. W-W, show them to the fence. You're right, that is that post and series of photographs.
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Yes, I do.
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And were those taken from the Lori Shaver Facebook records that are already in evidence?
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Yes, it was.
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This time the states moved states WW into evidence, states 52.
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After starting to text back and forth, at some point did a physical relationship begin?
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Any objection? No objections, yeah. Objections overruled.
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First of all, can you say the date that this was posted?
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March 24, 2016.
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And what is the content of the post?
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Newest project, built this fire pit today, cut a portion of the fence for straight access from back porch, and now just need to pour in concrete, put in a new gate, and figure out seating. Going to be a great summer.
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Go ahead and look at the final photo. And there, do you recognize the children in that?
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Yes, I do. And who are they? Those are Mike and Lori Shaver's children.
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Thank you very much. She referenced pouring a concrete slab Were there later posts on her Facebook profile about purchasing some concrete?
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Yes, there was.
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We're going to go ahead and show new statements. X, X. Show defense. Recognize this. Oppose.
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Yes, I do.
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Is that related to the person to congregate from Lori Shaver's Facebook profile already in evidence?
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Yes, it is.
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You're on this kind of state. Who states XX in the evidence that states 53?
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Any objection?
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Same objection.
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All right, sir. Objection is overruled.
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What date is this posted?
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April 28, 2016.
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And what is the content of the post?
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About when did that?
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It was originally a photo of bags of cement in the back of a truck. There are comments, yes. Yes. Somebody asked what it was. She said cement. It's going in the area around the fire pit I built, going to make a seating area. Somebody else asked how on earth would you mix and pour that? Don't you need a huge machine? Good luck. Can't wait to see.
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First week of December 2015.
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Lori Lee Shaver, filmer, posted, nope, a wheelbarrow will do, and you mix with muscles, LMAO.
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How often would you see her?
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In the course of your investigation, did you also find evidence of a subsequent purchase of more concrete?
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Showing the defense one has been previously marked as States YY. Direct your attention to States 54.
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These are records that we obtained from Lowe's.
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And is there a receipt showing purchase of concrete by Maury Shaver? within those records? Yes, there is. Associated with your search for records about purchase of concrete, did you also look into whether or not any cement-related equipment had been rented by either Lori Shaver or Travis Filmer from any of the other home improvement stores?
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One, two, three times a week.
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Yes, I did.
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And did you find any evidence?
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I did. What was that? It was a concrete mixer that was rented from Home Depot by Travis Filmer.
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After that cement mixer rental and this cement purchase, was there photos on Facebook correlating with the cement slab around this time?
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I'm going to go ahead and show you what has been previously marked for identification. It states ZZ. Do you recognize this exhibit?
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And when of would these happen?
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Yes, I do.
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And is that a post from Corey Shaver's Facebook that we've been talking about already in evidence?
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Yes, it is.
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All right. This time the statement states ZZ in the evidence and states 55. Any objection? Same objection, John.
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Objection is overruled.
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What is the date of the series of photographs for this post?
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September 19, 2016. And the second photograph here... The fire pit is visible behind the young girl.
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And that ultimately is the cement slab that was covering Michael Shaffer's body?
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That's correct.
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All right, I want to move on to some discussion of the records from Michael Shaffer's Facebook account. Now this photo showing the installation of the cement slab, what date was that?
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It would occur during her lunch break. Did you work at home? Yes.
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September 19th, 2016.
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Did you find activity on Michael Shaver's Facebook after September 19th, 2016?
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Yes, I did.
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Showing the witness was already in evidence. State's Exhibit 11. What is State's Exhibit 11?
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It's a photo of Mike Shaver.
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And specifically, this, a photo from Michael Shaver's Facebook records?
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Yes, it is.
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What would Facebook categorize this photo as?
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This was a profile picture.
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And when was this particular photo posted onto the Mike Shaver Facebook account?
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March 8, 2017.
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So about six months after that post about the Smith's lab?
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Were there other profile pictures posted? No. on Michael Shaver's Facebook profile after the cement slab was poured in September of 2016?
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Yes, there were.
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I'm showing you what was identified as entered into evidence in CH-12. When was that profile picture uploaded onto Michael Shaver's Facebook account?
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January 2nd, 2018.
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When you viewed this picture, did it seem unusual?
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And why was that?
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It does not depict Michael Shaver anywhere in it.
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So did you do any research into this photograph? I did. What did you utilize in order to research this photograph?
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So I used what's called a reverse image search. So we can, anybody can do it. You can save an image to your computer. In this case, this image. And you go to Google and click on a little icon that looks like either a camera or a photo. And you can put that photo in to Google search. And Google will search all of the internet to see if that photo has ever been posted anywhere else.
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And did you find indications of when and where this photo was posted?
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Yes, I did.
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And what was it?
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This photo was posted on a Bloody Mary Mix Company's Instagram page called, I believe it was Redneck Sportsman's Juice.
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I'm showing this to Marcus. It says BBB for identification. Do you recognize it says BBB?
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Yes, I do.
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Is that cover photo taken from the Michael Shaver Facebook page? Profile that is already in evidence?
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Yes, it is.
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Prior to retaining an attorney, had you spoken with law enforcement? Yes. About the matters of this case?
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Did you ever go over to her residence and spend the night during this time frame?
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56. Same objection, Judge. All right, objections overruled. What date was this cover photo published?
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November 14, 2017.
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So almost two years from his disappearance.
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That's correct.
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Did you look at the IP log history associated with Michael Shaver and Laurie Shaver's Facebook in and around the time that this was posted? Sure. What activity in and around the date and time of this cover photo posted here on Michael Shaver's Facebook?
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November 14, 2017, the IP addresses are the same. Mike Shaver's account was a login activity that was done at 1558, four-day-at-a-time. Lori Shaver's account on the same day at 1559, universal four-day-at-a-time, and it was also a login.
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So within two minutes of each other. That's correct. Prior to Michael Shaver's disappearance, what was... the general content of his Facebook posts? Mike Shaver's Facebook activity was primarily focused on the airplanes. Did he post pictures of himself, his friends, airplanes, things related to that? Yes.
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During any point in your relationship, did you spend the night over at her house?
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Now, prior to his disappearance in November 2015, did Michael Shaver's Facebook show a lot of mean posts? Only one that I can recall. And after his disappearance in November of 2015, did that change? It didn't. That's what has been previously marked as states CCC for identification. Showing the witness states CCC for identification. What is that?
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The meme that was posted to Mike Shaver's Facebook account. And that's basically one page from the 3,000 pages that's already in evidence? That's correct. The state moves CCC into evidence at stage 57. Any objections?
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Any objections over rules?
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First of all, what was the date of this post? January 5th, 2016. And what is the content of the meme itself? What did it say? Don't take a good woman for granted. Someday someone will come along and appreciate what you did. Now, did you look at the Facebook activity as far as the IP logs associated with Michael Shaver's Facebook and Lori Shaver's Facebook for that day? Yes, I did.
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that you were married at that time, is it fair to say your wife did not know about these by purpose?
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Does that appear on the summary page 9? Yes, it does, sorry. And what was the activity related to this post on Michael Shaver's Facebook compared to Lori Shaver's Facebook? Mike Shaver's account uploaded a photo.
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Lori Shaver's account uploaded a photo. And what were the times of those? Mike Shaver's was at 16.05 UTC. Glories was a 208 universal coordinated time.
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But sharing the same IP address. Correct. State is showing defense when it's been previously been marked as states DDD. Showing when it's states DDD. Do you recognize that exhibit? Yes, I do. And what is that exhibit? Also, a meme was posted to Mike Shaver's Facebook account. Is that... from the same Facebook records that we've been talking about.
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Objection, Judge. It's opinion test speculating about his wife's understanding and factual state of mind.
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State moves states D, D, D into evidence of states 58. Any objections?
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Objections overruled.
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First of all, when was this posted? January 18, 2016. And can you go ahead and just read the content of the meme itself? Some people need to mind their own business. Hashtag get a life. Okay. Was there activity on the same IP address from Michael Shaver and Lori Shaver's Facebook accounts on that day? Yes, there was.
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And can you go ahead and tell the jury, first of all, when the activity was on Michael Shaver's account?
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January 18, 2016, 335 Universal for a date of time the photo was uploaded. January 18, 2016. 15-21, Universal Court data time, photo was uploaded to Lori Shaver's.
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I'll rephrase, Judge. Sorry, did you have knowledge of it? Did you know whether your wife knew or not?
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Now, switching back to Lori Shaver's Facebook, what types of things would be posted on Lori Shaver's account? She would publish photos and also memes. Based on the sheer volume of the records, it's fair to say that account and the large number of pictures of herself, family, kids. Thanks for that, Major. Yes. But did she also post memes quite often? She did.
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I'm showing you what's been previously marked as States EEE. Showing to the defense first. Showing witness States EEE. Do you recognize that? I do. And is that a post from the Gloria Shaver Facebook records that is already out of that? Yes, it is. All right. This time we have states 58 as evidence and states 59. Same up here. All right.
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My wife did not know.
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So states E over defenses objection states EEE will be entered into evidence of states number 59.
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You definitely didn't tell her?
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First of all, when was this posted? January 8th, 2016. And what is the content of of the post itself?
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The photo says, sometimes you just have to turn around, give a little smile, throw the match, and burn that bridge.
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Objection.
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Now, going down further on that same page, is there a reference to the next post? There is. And what is the reference to the next post that appears on the page? Awesome day getting dirty. And what date and time was that post? January 8, 2016. At 001A, Universal 4D, the time. And on the following page of the Facebook records is there a photograph that's associated with that post? Yes, there is.
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Overruled. Please move on.
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I'm showing the defense what has been previously been marked the state's FFF for identification. You recognize the state's FFF for identification? Yes, I do. And what is that? It's a photo of Lori Shaver with mud on her shirt. And is that the... The next page in the Facebook records that we've been discussing? Yes, it is. All right.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Had you stayed out overnight and spend time away when your wife was around, that would raise suspicions. Is that fair? Correct.
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At this time, the state moves states FFF into evidence of states 60.
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Any objection? Objection. Objection is overruled.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, during your review of the Facebook records of Michael Shaver... Specifically referring to the photographs that were sent through Michael Shaver's Facebook account to Vanessa Thompson, did you find evidence of photographs contained within there associated with this photo? Yes, I did. I'm showing the defense what has been previously been marked as states GGG for identification.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm showing the witness states GGG. Do you recognize those photographs? These were from, I believe these were from Lori's Facebook. Or were these from Michael's Facebook and the images? Those were from Michael Shaver's Facebook. The images sent to Vanessa Townsend. They are the images that were sent to Vanessa Townsend. All right, this time the statement states GGG and evidence that states 61.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Second objection, Judge. Objection is overruled. So the photographs on the left and right are from the... from the photo sent to Vanessa Townsend. The photo in the middle is the picture from Laurie Shaver's Facebook profile? That's correct.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Returning to Michael Shaver's Facebook, as you were going through, other than that photo from the bar, were there other photos, was there another photo that drew some suspicion? Yes, there was. I'm sure a defense one has been previously been marked that states, I, I, I. Is that the photo? that you found suspicious from the Michael Shaver Facebook account. Yes, it is.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You're at this time to say move seats I, I, I into evidence of seats number 62.
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Any objection, Mr. Wiggs?
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No, sir. All right.
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Objection zero.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sustained.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is that the photo that we were referring to on the left-hand side? Yes, it is. And first of all, why was that suspicious to you? Like some of the others also did not depict Michael Shaver. All right. And when you... At your suspicions, what do you do to look into it? A reverse Google image search. Using the same process that you talked about from the bar photograph? That's correct.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Were you trying to avoid raising your wife's suspicions?
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And what did you learn when you did that? This photo is not original. It's been shared on the internet numerous times. Was there... Any other related information that you got from Facebook associated with this post? Yes, there was. And what is that? This photo was uploaded along with a check-in location.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What is a check-in location? Facebook gives users the ability to let people know where they are. Whenever they go to the app, they can check in and basically tell people that they are at a specific location.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, do you actually have to physically be at that location in order to do a Facebook check? You do not. Was there information on the IP logs associated with this photograph and the summary? Yes, there was. And can you indicate, first of all, is 53, 54 of that summary? July 25th.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did she tell you about her marital status?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There's the IP address along with another IP address that was also used in the same time frame. Mike Shaver's account with a login, login, and then also an action photo upload.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was there activity on Lori Shaver's Facebook? We want the same activity. I see your address. Yes, there was a password change. And what is the time, first of all, the time of the Michael Shaver Facebook profile associated with this check-in in the middle of Lake Okeechobee?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mike Shaver's account was on 7-25-2016 at 13-10 Universal Coordinated Time. The password change on Lori's account was the same date at 13-04-2016.
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Universal for data done. So within six minutes both of these accounts are utilizing the same ideas, right? That's correct. Now as you were going through Michael Shaver's Facebook profile, focusing on the messages and screenshots of text messages sent from Michael Shaver's Facebook to Vanessa Thompson, did you find screen captures of text messages between
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And what did she tell you?
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That she was going through a divorce.
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Jeremy Townsend and Lori Shaver, where they were, appeared to be in some sort of apartment.
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Yes, they did.
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What was the time frame of these pet specimens? February 23rd, 2016. And taking that information, did you look at the messages sent from the Michael Shaver Facebook account, the first message that was sent to Vanessa Townsend, basically indicating that the person with that account wanted to speak to Vanessa. Yes. Going ahead and pulling up that portion of the records.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did she tell you her husband's name?
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When was that attempt to reach out to Vanessa done? February 25th, 2016. Going to go ahead and get away from Facebook now. We're going to move to financial records. Talked about getting the records for Lori Shaver's bank accounts and checking accounts. We also obtained the information for Michael Shaver's bank accounts. Yes, I did.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Michael Scherer.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did she tell you where he was?
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Showing you what's been previously marked, states JJJ, any of those records. Yes, they are. All right. This time the state moves states JJJ into evidence with certain showing to the defense.
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It shows the same objection as the relevance, probative value, and authentication, as we'll say.
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She said that he had left with a friend in a vehicle.
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All right. The objections are overruled.
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Now, what time frame of records were obtained? The records began... Summer of 2014 until March 2016. Now, Friars was his parents in November of 2015. What kind of activity appeared on his financial records, bank records?
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What I refer to as financial transactions indicative of normal everyday life. What do you mean by that? Physical locations in stores, retail establishments, restaurants.
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When did that happen in relation to when you started this physical relationship with her?
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and system paychecks, paying utilities bills. And the time frame that we have published here on pages 69 and 71 of the bank records, what time frame are we talking about? October 28, 2015 through December 24, 2015. Correct. After the basic time frame that you know called no show from work in November 10 of 2015, What types of transactions appear on those records?
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The transactions are, the purchases at least, are no longer consistent with in-store purchases. What types of transactions do we have?
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Purchases online as well as ATM withdrawals. And the ATM withdrawals, do they indicate where those were from? They do. And where were they? Claremont and Disney. Okay, so nothing from Georgia? Nothing from Georgia. In other investigations, have you been able to go through and try to get video from ATMs and things of that nature? Yes, I have. Do they retain that video forever? They do not.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When this case came, your intention had... video from ATMs expired due to the three years that it had been before the finding was even discovered. Yeah, ATM videos typically only held between 30 and 90 days. And the online purchases, what were those? There were two online purchases to Wish.com. And what was the other online? The other online purchases were for Walmart.com.
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When she told me that Michael had moved out, that was November 2015.
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Had you spoken with them multiple times prior to retaining an attorney?
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Are there any deposits associated with this? There is. And what was that?
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So the time frame that you started going to the house was after that?
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On December 14th, there was an ATM check deposit at the Citrus Tower Boulevard, assuming Chase and Claremont, for $2,539.
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That amount, is that consistent with other financial records that were obtained in this case? Yes, it was. And what was that?
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We received a copy of this check from Mariner Finance, payable to Michael Shaver for $2,539.
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And is that the same check that is referenced there in States 29? Yes, it is. After that check was deposited, what were the next transactions? And just go ahead and read the dates and what they were and the amounts.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The check was deposited on December 14th. On posting day December 14th, there was a $100 withdrawal in Disney. On December 14th, there was a $200 cash withdrawal from the Citrus Tower in Claremont. On December 18th, there was another ATM withdrawal for $500, also from Citrus Tower Boulevard in Claremont. On December 21st, there was a withdrawal in Groveland for $400.
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It was the first week of December.
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On December 21st, an ATM withdrawal for $500 from Citrus Tower. On December 23rd, another ATM withdrawal from Citrus Tower for $500.
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Now, moving on to page 71. Is this the page that references the transaction with Walmart.com? Yes, it is. And can you go ahead and just point to and say the date and what that transaction was? December 23rd, card purchase.
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The transaction date that's listed in the description of the transaction is 22nd, Walmart.com, $397.16.
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During the course of the affair, would you exchange text messages, phone calls, and photographs?
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And did you do research with Walmart or basically what was purchased in the Dallas state? Yes, I did. I'm showing you what's been previously been marked as states, well, showing defense what's previously been marked as states L-L-L for identification. Showing the witness states L-L-L for identification. Do you recognize that, doctor? Yes, I do.
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And are those the records that you received from Walmart? Yes, they are. Are this kind of state move states L-L-L... Any objection? Judge, same objections. Objections over. Rules. Now, there's two documents on this CDL pull-up. First one first. Go on here. What information is contained in this first page records? This is the order summary for the Walmart purchase that was made. Right.
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And first of all, who is showing from the Walmart records as the purchaser? Lori Shaver. And where does it show that this purchase was delivered? Right here, as well as right here. And here at the bottom, what is indicated here as far as the actual purchase itself? These are the purchase amounts, as well as the date and time.
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And is the purchase amount located on the bottom here consistent with what was from the Mike Schamer bank record? And that also indicates how it was paid? Yes. And is that associated with his credit card? Correct. Going on to the other pages, this includes billing information, other things associated with the Walmart.com transactions? Yes, it is. And once again, who is shown as the purchaser?
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And during this time frame, what was the status of your marriage?
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Lori Schamer. purchased? And what was the types of items that were purchased? From looking at them with the club props that made Christmas, I believe they were Christmas gifts. Looking at Michael Shaver's bank records, was there any activity whatsoever past December 15, 2015? No, there was none. I'd rather say there's no further questions at this time.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right, Mr. Wiggs. All the data that you All that's been discussed so far. Does any of it mention homicide?
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I will repeat what I said yesterday.
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Does it mention a homicide?
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The word homicide does not appear in those records.
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Correct. Okay. Does any of the records that you've introduced, do they discuss aiding and assisting somebody from being detected? To repeat what I said yesterday? Anything about preventing somebody from being detected?
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My wife and I were not in a good place. We were kind of going back and forth if we were going to stay or get a divorce.
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Not as you've quoted. Correct.
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Now, you've spoken about financial records. You've shown photographs of Lori with blood on her, correct? With what? Blood on her shirt or something?
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Did you go through the financial records, for instance, and link that for any particular purpose? Which part? The blood on the shirt.
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Yes, I did.
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What's the mud represent?
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The mud was the day that her and Jeremy went to Revolution Off-Road on State Road 33 in Groveland.
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Did you suggest that to the jury? Direct examination?
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There were purchases made.
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Did you suggest that on direct examination?
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That wasn't asked.
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Right, that wasn't asked. Okay. That fact was not in any implication that she had dug a grave or buried Michael Shamer, correct? No, sir. Now, you talked about or you showed images of Lori working out. Any of the Facebook data that you look at indicate her being involved with beach body sales? I have no idea what that is. Okay.
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Any of it indicate, did you look through each and every document indicating why she may be working out? Like she enjoyed it? Yeah. A lot of people like to work out. Sure. doesn't suggest necessarily they're planning a homicide, does it? To repeat what I said yesterday? Sir, does it necessarily imply somebody's planning a murder?
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Was there ever a time... that Lori Schaber expressed to you that she wanted you to leave your wife to be with her.
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No, it does not.
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If anybody was in the house, Jeremy Townsend, we know he testified he would be in the house, he may have been able to access this account, correct? Theoretically. And there's been no link-up testimony between the IP, the physical residence, and any device, correct? Incorrect. Okay. Didn't you testify yesterday that these IP addresses expire over time?
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Not that they expire every time, no. My testimony yesterday was that those records were only held by CenturyLink for a rolling 12 months.
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And that there's no preservation of the IP address for a period of time?
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Not for CenturyLink.
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Right. Facebook, do they interminably keep the IP addresses? They do. In perpetuity? They do. Okay. Do any of the records that you've spoken about show causation of a homicide? To repeat what I said yesterday? I'm not asking you to repeat what you said yesterday. Do any of them show and reveal causation of a homicide? Define causation. The manner of.
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And was that what you wanted?
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Those records did not know?
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Right. You mentioned about banking records. Lori Shaver is not on trial for bank fraud or any such charge like that, is she?
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No, she's not.
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You've mentioned memes that were posted, correct? I did. One was introduced and it said, I think, something like, sometimes you have to burn the house down and move on.
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Did there ever come a time in February of 2016 where Lori Schaber was upset with you about your status with your wife and your refusal to leave the marriage?
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The bridge.
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Act okay and move on. Okay. That's an expression, correct? It is. Any bridge broke down or anything like that that was relevant?
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An actual literal bridge, sir? No, sir, I did not.
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And these memes that you've testified to or have been presented are just standard phraseology, correct? This isn't a personal thing somebody's created necessarily. Well, they can be. Do you know who created these memes? I do not. I didn't look into that. Okay. You do these searches where you can look at photos and see if they're posted anywhere else. Sure.
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Do you know if Lori Shaver created that meme, any single meme? I do not. Correct. And going back to all the records that you've spoken about that have been just ushered into evidence at this stage, you're unable to account for any specific evidence number of images to say this definitely came from Lori, this came from this person, this came from this person, correct? I don't believe so.
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Why did you retain him?
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One moment, please, Judge.
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Yes, sir. Thank you. Redirect. When you're referencing Facebook maintaining IT records in perpetuity, is that how you were able to get the information from Facebook and create where that summary was created from?
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That's where those records came from. I have no idea what their retention period is.
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or at least the period of time that you asked for, they were able to give you the IP address associated with all of those posts.
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Yes, they were.
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And now CenturyLink and who would be the one that might know or would know who the physical address was attached to those different IP addresses, they have nothing to do with Facebook and vice versa.
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That is correct.
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Nothing further, Joe. Okay.
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Just on this IP issue, just for clarity, Facebook may hold the IP. But that ID is not linkable to the physical address of the guy.
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Not with the Facebook.
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Overruled. You may answer.
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Not with the Facebook records.
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All right. And may the witness be released from his subpoena. He is subject to recall, but he can step down today. All right, sir. You may step down from the witness stand. If you're subject to recall, please be available. Thank you, sir. Okay. and your next witness.
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At this time, the state of Florida rests its case against Florida Sheep.
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And during that time frame, how were their text messages about that?
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Showing you what's been previously been marked for identification, certain offense, CHQQ.
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And first of all, how do you recognize those text messages?
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Lori sent those to me.
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And does it include communications with you and her back and forth?
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Your Honor, at this time, the stage will move States Q2 into evidence of cease. 45, I believe.
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When my name came out as part of this case, my wife and I felt that we would retain an attorney to help us through the process, help us understand the legal side of this.
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Same objection, Zach. Same objection. Okay, objection is overruled.
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Go ahead and refer to the exhibit that you have there. First of all, there's a couple phone numbers on here on that first page where it says receiver 352-431-01419. Whose number was that? I don't recognize it. Okay. Well, what about 352- From the content as being you and Ms. Shaver?
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The first message that I want to draw your attention to is on the first page, February 23, 2016. Was that a message from Lori Shaver to you?
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Up top there in the white, this is one at 10, 17 p.m., what was the content of her message?
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Why did you lie to me? That one?
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Go ahead and read the whole thing.
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Why did you lie to me about Saturday night?
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And then moving on to the next page, 10.03.48 p.m., still February 23rd, 2016. What was the content of the message you received from Ms. Shaver there?
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No wonder why you shaved your beard.
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What about the first message, the 10.03.48 on the bottom?
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Neighbors my ass.
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And when she's talking about neighbors my ass and no wonder why you shaved your beard, what is she referring to there?
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I had shaved my beard completely off. I had a little smaller beard, kind of like yours, and shaved it all off. And she was saying that her neighbors could vouch for the affair.
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Going on to the next page at 10.08.45 p.m. on the bottom in the gray, what is the message that she sends to you there?
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Nice wedding ring. Thought you didn't wear that anymore.
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What is she referring to there?
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I had my wedding ring I had put back on, had a picture with my wife. It was posted on Facebook.
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Yes. Yes. Yes. The United States Army.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did this cause arguments between you and Laurie Schaefer?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that was in late February of 2016?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sometime after that, did you learn that your wife found out about the affair?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And how did that come about?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My wife contacted me April 12, 2016. She had received flowers.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And then did that expose the relationship between yourself and Lori Shaper to her?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not at first, because she asked me who Mike was. And I did not know who Mike was. Once she checked her Facebook and seen the messages from Mike, it started to come out.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that was when?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
April 2016.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At any point when you were over at the Shader residence, was Michael Shader there?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At any point were you involved with any sort of altercation with Michael Shaver?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At any point did you shoot or injure Michael Shaver?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At any point were you involved with disposing of the body of Michael Shaver?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And after the affair was exposed, what happened with your relationship report?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I cut it off.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you. Mr. Wiggs? Yes, sir.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Let's go back to the original part of your testimony, Mr. Townsend. You represented you had tension with the wife and you broke up with her. Well, you weren't seeing her, right? You were just sleeping with her? With who? Your wife. Say it again? You were still living in your marital residence, correct? Yes. And you stated earlier y'all were having problems the two of you, correct?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So you guys are having problems and you're cheating on your wife, correct?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And at the same time you said, but I don't want to end the relationship, correct? Correct. Okay. So you stated that you go over to Lori's about one to three times a week, correct? Correct. And what time would that be? 11 to 12. Okay. Never any earlier, correct? Correct. In fact, you went over there more than one or three times a week, correct? No. In fact, you got Lori pregnant, did you not? No.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sir, from 1998 to 2003. And why did you leave the military? I was shot three times in Afghanistan and was almost killed. Was medically retired out.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You stated that you never spent the night there, correct? Correct. So if anybody were to testify they saw you spending the night there, you know where that may be coming from? Somebody look like you, you know?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I would not know who would say I stayed the night there because I never stayed the night there.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You ever represent to Lori you'd protect her from Michael? That you were a military guy and had special training?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not in that sense. No. You were in black ops? No.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Your position. We've heard on your direct examination that you met her in September of 2015. Correct? Correct. Okay. Have you ever made a statement inconsistent with that? Not that I'm aware. Not that you're aware of. Okay. I'm going to show you your deposition. Page 5, beginning on line 11 through 12. I want you to read that to yourself.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What line?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
11 through 12. Do I refresh your recollection?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Hang on. It just goes on to say how I met her.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I asked you, have you made a statement inconsistent with that September of 2015 date? In fact, on line 11, you say, I met her in the park. I don't know when. I mean, it was a long time ago. Correct? That was your statement earlier in time, correct? Correct. Now, we're at trial years later, and you've got it pinpointed to a particular month and year, correct? I don't have to pinpoint it.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You did on your direct examination. You said September of 2015, correct? As I went back. Sir, did you not say on direct examination September 2015? Correct. Did you not? Earlier, you're telling me I don't remember when. Correct? Correct. Okay. In fact, you went to the house, spent Christmas with the Shavers. Did you not?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Where were you shot?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Through both my legs and one right through my side.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
If anybody were to take the stand and say otherwise... Do you have any idea why they may be mistaken about that fact?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was there before Christmas, but I did not go there and spend Christmas with the Shavers.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Well, how long were you before Christmas?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was there the first two weeks. Kids got out of school for Christmas break, and I was home with my family.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So how long did you spend during that time period around Christmas with the Shavers?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, do you know Lori Shaver?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The first two weeks of December 2015.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Ever go shopping with the Shavers?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Since this, since Lori, you went back to your wife. I didn't leave my wife. Well, you were over there with Miss Shaver having an affair, were you not?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I wouldn't say that's gainfully spending time with your wife, is it, sir?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when you went back to your wife, is it not a fact you continued to follow Lori?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Never met her in a store? No. Never pulled up to her next to the light?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How did you meet her?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
98, okay. And 2003, correct? Correct. And you suffered this injury, correct? Have you worked at all since then? Nursery? I did work. Okay. And you're receiving government aid and assistance, correct? Yes. Did you tell the government about that? You're working? Relevance? Answer the question, please. Did you tell the government about that?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I met her at one of the public parks.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I didn't have a retirement at that time when I first got out.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So when you got retirement later, then you became more ill or something? Yes. Okay. Are you working today? No. I'd asked you earlier if you were in special ops or a sniper, I believe, correct? Correct. Okay. Did you ever represent anybody that you were? Not that I'm aware of. Okay. Let me show you your deposition. Page 8, line 25. I want you to read that to yourself.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
He finally embraced it, huh?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Nice. So let's go back to these columns.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Okay. So there was a merchant's table. It hit the max number of columns, 1,024 at the time. Apparently, was it SQL Server has got more memory now? You can now add 4,096 columns. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Good for them. But because it's arbitrary, I mean, it's not arbitrary, the memory constraint is
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
force them to either stop making new columns or create a second table in which you can just shove some more columns. That was the choice that was decided. So now there's merchants and merchants too. And I assume every time you look up a merchant, you just got to pull both tables in, don't you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Which they did thousands of times, apparently. I just wonder, how can you possibly have that much information about a single entity in the world? Obviously, there's probably a lot of foreign key relationships, which is probably a lot of those columns. But I mean, how much can you know about a single merchant? Like more than 1,024 things matter.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
That's amazing. So you would download them on your brother's machine?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And you would rip them to a disc, to a CD, which is a one-time. But yeah, you pretty much have one shot at it, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And you sneaker net that sucker over to your machine.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And then are these just tire balls or how did you, do you remember?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well, it paid off.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So no, uh, secret service knocking down the door, I think is a worthwhile diversion. Don't you think Adam? Yeah. Is you got more to the story? What's the story? I mean, were you, I mean, you, you shall it, it deep.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
The plot thickens.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
They just dismissed the charges or how did it turn out?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So that story plus Miss Johns together got you this job. Because they're like, well, you must be good at what he does. Secret services after him.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Right. Then you find this code base and you realize how many hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars in labor have gone into this monstrosity.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
You didn't introduce the calendar, did you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So just filled it in more? Just one row per day and you just got to fill it out. And it's going to check against that row for the day. And if there's no row, then they can't log in.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Wow. So it had been, it was defunct basically.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So you did implement the correct behavior.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Who knows, man.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So we're joined today by Jimmy Miller, host of the Future of Coding podcast. Jimmy, you wrote the best, worst blog post.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And then did you decompile that and throw it in source control or like, how, how did you, how did you recover from the circumstances or did you just perpetuate it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well, you're not going to get a disagreement from me on that one, but maybe.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well, the Kaizen just means continuous improvement. You know, that's something that I'm sure you're into, right? Like, let's make things better all the time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Definitely resonated with me. In fact, I was like stopping to check the technologies that you listed because I literally thought maybe I had been on the same code base. And then I was like, I was all C sharp and VB. I was like, okay, mine was over here in Ruby land. But I was just like bringing up PTSD or something, you know, because... I've been in a code base like this.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Take that hourly wage out of your bonus. It costs a little extra. There's some intangible cost there on that bonus system.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
It definitely was like, when I saw that, I thought, Adam's going to love this. There's someone named Guilfoyle?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
But the code is like a legend. This is like a legend. Yeah. Total legend.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well, first of all, let's lay some groundwork here before I start to get into the details, because this was your first job coming out of college, is that right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
You know, he can't have a trail, no paper trails.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Okay, coming out of schooling.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And successful business that you went to work for, I assume?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
I was going to say, it's convenient sometimes to have a Gilfoyle. It's like a patsy. When something's wrong, you got someone to place the blame on because he's been prolific and he's done all these things and he's not around. So surely, gosh, Gilfoyle, what's wrong with you? But no, this was a third-party system.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
It sounds fun. I mean, I would like to work on this code base for maybe like a month and then move on. But I'd like to visit.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Yeah, it is a game. I mean, it's got to feel like that to a certain degree.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
I do, but I can't remember what it does. But I remember Rhino.js. It was involved in my cappuccino days. I think they were using it back with Objective-J.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Right. Yeah. And so lots of money being made, of course, credit card processing, a core piece of the world's infrastructure. If you're getting fractions of a penny of every transaction, I mean, there's just a lot of money coming in and money hides problems, right? Like the success just hides problems. And this thing had so many problems. It's just hard to fathom that it operated.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
I've had similar experiences, all I think at smaller scales, both in terms of company size and code base. My craziest one was I inherited, I did a rescue project for a boat shop somewhere in Georgia where they just needed, like basically it's a Ruby on Rails application that ran back office for a boat shop. A lot of merchants, a lot of sales, a lot of this kind of stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So similar tables and stuff, which is why it's probably resonating with me. And they had lost the original dev team. It was like a contract team came in, built this system and left. And then the IT guys who are also third party kind of took the system over because they were just nice guys who were helping out the company.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
That was a successful boat retail shop and relied upon this application to run their business now. And this was like really early Ruby on Rails days. I think it was like version 1.2 or something. And so there's a lot missing. And this team came in and wrote a lot of very clever code. Basically implemented a meta framework on top of it. And it was insanity. It took me a very long time to unravel.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And then they left, you know. And these people were left kind of high and dry. And so I was happy to help out. And I had the challenge, the game, like all these things. There was no... development system. It was like production and I copy the code down and try to get it running on my machine, you know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So you're very much like doing crazy stuff, very small increments at a time, try not to break things. Um,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And so that experience just resonates with everything you're saying, like the metaprogramming, specifically when you're talking about the thing that generates data structures from classes, and the database kind of is the programming system as well, if you want it to be, but no one's using it, like all that stuff was there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And it took me a very long time to be able to unravel it and understand it to the point where I was like, oh, it's kind of clever once you know how it works, but... That's a terrible thing. And so I think, and I didn't write up about that at all, I think there's tons of code bases like this out there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
It's like a time travel movie, which we talked about pre-show, so not a good callback. But yeah, that's one of the problems with meta-programming is it's just too meta sometimes and you can't unravel it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
It's very easy, especially when you come into a code base to, you know, Guilfoyle the thing in the sense of how I was talking about Guilfoyle earlier, where it's like some other who was dumb or incompetent or malicious did this. But as you actually start to like work with it and talk to people and learn about it, okay, there are politics and there are power struggles and stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
There are things that happen because we're humans, but a lot of it is like, They made the best decision they had at the time with the information that they had. And I'm staring at it with completely different perspective years later. And like that stuff is fun to learn. And you actually realize like, yeah, that duct tape was really reasonable considering all the things they considered.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
I just don't know those things. And so I really do appreciate code from that perspective, especially legacy systems that are still powering businesses and bringing value to people is that we want to be smarter than everybody else, but. Those people just had different contexts lots of times that we just don't have.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And you start to learn those contexts and it gives you a new appreciation for the code that you're looking at. And that's cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
There's something about the naivety also of being fresh out of school or young to the industry. I think I told this story before, which I had a similar experience where I inherited some bad code, but I didn't have that perspective and just knowledge enough to realize it was bad code. I thought it was good code and I was a bad programmer. And I probably, I mean, I was.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Is Munch still there?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
But still, I gave it too much credit because I think this must be what good code looks like. It's so hard to understand, you know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And it took me a couple of years of just maintaining that. And thankfully, I had autonomy. So I just did it by myself, like slowly changing a thing here or there without major interruption from bosses or anything. Then I realized what good code actually looks like and that what I had inherited was actually just clever but terrible. And oftentimes clever is terrible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Wow. That one hits hard, doesn't it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And there's some clever stuff in this code base you're talking about.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Things that you're like, oh, that's kind of clever, but it's also so dumb.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well said, Jimmy. Well said. Anything else? Any stone that we've left unturned? I'm sure there'd be dragons elsewhere, but anything you'd like to highlight before we call it a show?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Fair. Well, great best worst blog post. I love that you wrote that up. I think there's a reason it was popular. I think because it's a shared experience, well documented. And it's fun to laugh at these things. We laugh so we won't cry. Or maybe we laugh at you and not with you because I didn't have that particular problem.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
But I appreciate you coming on the show and talking to us about it and for giving us some big picture ideas and hope for the future of coding and also for the current state of coding and code itself and a love for it that I share at least, even when I despise it sometimes. I still love it. And I think that that's just the way it is sometimes. Adam? I agree. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Yeah, absolutely. I think we can drill in on specific aspects and just enjoy them as we do, but you can definitely paint with broad strokes in terms of, I already said it's a big visual basic C-sharp thing. The database was massive. It had lots of columns.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
You go ahead and fill out some of the big picture aspects of what this thing was, and then we can dive into some of the details because there's a lot of just enjoyable tomfoolery going on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Was his name actually Munch? I mean, who names their kid Munch?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
That is hilarious. Some names just find you, you know, you just can't, you can't escape them. They just stick.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You know, I've had the pleasure of meeting several people behind the scenes at Speakeasy, and I'm very impressed with what they're doing to help teams to create idiomatic SDKs, enterprise-grade SDKs in nine languages, and it's just awesome. So, Sagar, walk me through the process of how Speakeasy helps teams to create enterprise-grade idiomatic SDKs at scale.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
It is open source though, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
There's a margin of haters, let's just say, towards Kafka. And it is open source. And I'm just curious, you know, you may be in that bucket of margin of haters because you've created WarpStream, right? So you're kind of not for, you're kind of against, at least from an economic standpoint and maybe a DX standpoint and many other standpoints. The point I'm getting to is why not just improve Kafka?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Good answer. I was expecting a version of that. I was not suggesting that you should just not start WarpStream and by all means just go contribute to Kafka and bail. But it's always good to get that perspective because Kafka's got history. It's 13-ish years old. It was developed inside of LinkedIn for different purposes. That's why I started off with the question, which was...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Their own infrastructure because LinkedIn designed this for a different purpose than everybody else today uses it. It's not it was not designed to be used in a cloud environment where there's a lot of egress fees and a lot of fees between moving data around. And so it was not really designed for its actual use case or the usage space that it's in.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And LinkedIn did not charge its users those transaction fees. I assume potentially because, and I don't know LinkedIn's infrastructure history, but I assume because they had far more control over their cloud or their own environment to not have to deal with those costs than maybe everyone else who's become a Kafka user has had to take on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So you and Richard, did you guys meet at Datadog? Is that where you guys connected or was he at Datadog? Tell us a little bit of the history of you two.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Gotcha. Yeah. And while you were there, you had put some sort of Datadog infrastructure on S3 or on object storage. Husky, I think. I'm going from memory now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah, I mean, that's why I ask about it, because it seems like it's a precursor to this very similar move with Kafka, right? Like, what if we took Kafka, ripped out the local storage aspect of it? Sounds easy enough. And built something, I mean, by ripped out, conceptually ripping out, right? You didn't fork Kafka and write this, right? You started over.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Right, so conceptually, rip it out, but actually rewrite something that's Kafka compatible in terms of features and API, I assume, and all that kind of stuff. But no local storage, object storage.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And your success with what happened to Datadog probably led the way for you to say, well, if we did that, it would be a lot cheaper, basically, and way easier to operate because, hello, Amazon Web Services, right? Like, it's their problem now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Okay, friends, here are the top 10 launches from Supabase's launch week number 12. Read all the details about this launch at supabase.com slash launch week. Okay, here we go. Number 10, Snaplet is now open source. The company Snaplet is shutting down, but their source code is open.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
They're releasing three tools under the MIT license for copying data, seeding databases, and taking database snapshots. Number nine, you can use PG Replicate to copy data, full table copies, and CDC from Postgres to any other data system. Today it supports BigQuery, DuckDB, and MotherDuck with more syncs to be added in the future.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Number eight, Vect2PG, a new CLI utility for migrating data for vector databases to SuperBase or any Postgres instance with PG Vector. You can use it today with Pinecone and QDrant. More will be added in the future. Number seven, the official Subbase extension for VS Code and GitHub Copilot is here. And it's here to make your development with Subbase and VS Code even more delightful.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Number six, official Python support is here. As Supabase has grown, the AI and ML community have just blown up Supabase, and many of these folks are Pythonistas. So Python support expands. Number five, they released log drains so you can export logs generated by your Supabase products to external destinations like Datadog or custom endpoints.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Number four, authorization for real-time broadcast and presence is now public beta. You can now convert a real-time channel into an authorized channel using RLS policies in two steps. Number three, bring your own Auth0, Cognito, or Firebase.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
This is actually a few different announcements, support for third-party auth providers, phone-based multi-factor authentication, that's SMS and WhatsApp, and new auth hooks for SMS and email. Number two, build Postgres wrappers with Wasm. They released support for Wasm, WebAssembly, Foreign Data Wrapper. With this feature, anyone can create an FDW and share it with the Supabase community.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You can build Postgres interfaces to anything on the internet. And number one, Postgres.new. Yes, Postgres.new is an in-browser Postgres with an AI interface. With Postgres.new, you can instantly spin up an unlimited number of Postgres databases that run directly in your browser and soon deploy them to S3. Okay, one more thing. There is now an entire book written about Supabase.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
David Lorenz spent a year working on this book, and it's awesome. Level up your Supabase skills and support David and purchase the book. Links are in the show notes. That's it. Superbase launch week number 12 was massive. So much to cover. I hope you enjoyed it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Go to superbase.com slash launch week to get all the details on this launch or go to superbase.com slash changelogpod for one month of Superbase Pro for free. That's S-U-P-A-B-A-S-E dot com slash changelogpod. What are some lesser known things about object stores that you know that we don't know? Or maybe nobody knows besides you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
For us laymen, can you describe how the brokers work and contrast that again with these stateless agents? I understand that you can scale the agents horizontally because they are stateless versus a broker, which seems to have kind of a lock on some data. But what do Kafka brokers do exactly?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So you're reading metadata versus reading the real data, basically. And that's what makes it faster.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What's up, friends? Welcome back. This is The Change Law. We feature the hackers, the leaders, and those who are building data streaming platforms inspired by Kafka. Yes, today's conversation revolves around Kafka and data streaming. We're joined by Ryan Worrell, co-founder and CTO at WarpStream. Last year, they posted a blog titled Kafka is Dead, Long Live Kafka.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What percentage of the Kafka population does that cut out? Because it seems like many of them are highly real-time oriented.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Those reads and writes, can you restate those? Did you say writes are at most in P99 500 milliseconds and reads are one to two seconds in P99? Is that correct?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Okay, friends, the next step is to go to speakeasy.com. Try today for free. You get one free SDK in your language of choice on them. Enjoy it. Robust, idiomatic SDKs in nine plus languages. Your API, the open API spec available everywhere. Again, go to speakeasy.com. Once again, speakeasy.com.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So latency aside, what are the other downsides of this approach?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Does it have any of the hosting flexibility? I suppose you're putting everything in object storage anyway, so there's probably people running their own object storage clusters, but that might be crazy. I don't know.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What about R2? Would you have even more savings, or would that not matter because nothing's going outbound from the virtual network there?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I was thinking about getting started, really, or just trying it out. I do like your curl demo. I did play with it. I had no idea what I was doing. But it was cool. The command is on your homepage. It's curl and a URL to an install script. I did not review that script prior to running it. I just trusted you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You're admitting that to everybody?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Well, you know, it was a VM on Proxmox, so I didn't care that I could just throw away. It wasn't my own machine. I was safe. That's a good layer. It did spin up, and then it gives you a URL you can go to to log in. And next thing you know, you're looking at a cluster. So I like that aspect about it. Whose idea was it to come up with that demo? I mean, it's very hacker. It's very developer.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
No pain whatsoever. If you've got a VM or you want to spin up a VM or you have Proxmox, then you can do it safely like I've done. Or you can spin up a droplet on DigitalOcean or pick your own if you've got a VPC, whatever. You could do it in a more safe manner and have some fun. What do you expect people to do with that? What are people saying about that? And whose idea was it to produce that demo?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
This is very hacker. I like it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
It said it had a problem and I had to click it, so yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So to get to the Playground version of it, is it like dash dash Playground? How do I get there?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah, I dig it. I kind of wish there was more documentation. If there is, then I would go find it or maybe a video or something like that because that's kind of cool. I like this demo because for those who just want to tinker without having to spin it up in the EC2 or just whatever, you know, go the extra mile.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I love that you can just sort of do this on your own, but I had no idea the playground version was there or the agent version was there to go a little further. And there's some room that you can make some content around that to give people more of a guidance. And you should do that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
All right, today we are joined by Ryan Worrell from WarpStream. Ryan, welcome to The Change Log.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And I guess while I'm on your homepage perusing, just under this demo that is so cool, there is a mention of plug and play. Part of your angst, I suppose, to get to where you're at was let's rethink what this might look like in a modern time, which is what you've done. But then also to be just swap out. So one thing it says is there's no need to rewrite your application to use a proprietary SDK.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You just literally change a URL. How did you get there in terms of the, it's fine to not want to contribute to Kafka and make your own way. And I'm totally cool with that. and WarpStream reinventing or rethinking this model.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But how do you get to this point where you're like, let's make this as frictionless as possible to focus on the DX of what it might actually be like to say, okay, well, if this is, like Jared said earlier, that subset of folks that maybe they're not doing credit card transactions and fraud detection where that needs to be literally real-time, where the latency cannot be absorbed.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Great to have you. Shout out to listener Vladimir for requesting this episode. Also, shout out to your co-founder, Richard, who unfortunately couldn't be here today, but hey, Richard. What's up, Richard? Yeah, but you're here, so let's talk to you and not to Vladimir and to Richard. That being said, Vladimir requested this episode. You too, listener, can request episodes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
In a scenario where it can be absorbed and it's a large transaction, population of Kafka users to say, listen, we're here and this is how easy it is to swap. How did you get to that design, that idea?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And do you think that, I know you're sort of youngish, but do you think that, I suppose, how are you winning? Are you winning the market? That's what I'm trying to get to is like, are you truly absorbing a lot of the Kafka user base? Is there a major demand for WarpStream? What's the state of product market fit and are you winning?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Head to changelog.fm slash request. Let us know what you would like to hear about on the pod, and we might just fulfill your every desire. Vlad wanted to hear about WarpStream, and so that's why Ryan is here. Just so happens that Adam and I both would also like to hear about WarpStream.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What about Greenfield? Is there anybody that's like, okay, we need to adopt Kafka or something like it, but what is out there before we go and write a lot of code or flesh out our infrastructure model or make any plans? What about those that are not migrating? What's the path, I suppose? What's the inbound of those folks? And what's the path to the DX?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Because one of the things you mentioned is that you solve a few problems. You solve cloud economics. You solve operational overhead. And one thing that you mentioned, at least in the article that was from last year, was a major problem with Kafka, which was developer user experience. And that's what I'm trying to get to there. Those were coming on green, brand new.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What is that user experience like? And what is the path like for them?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So I guess the obvious question to me at this point is Kafka is not dead. It is alive. It is open source. To my knowledge, I don't think it is. WarpStream is not open source. Was there a conversation about licensing? Was there a conversation about being a commercial open source company?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Just to follow in the footsteps of the predecessors that you at least from a conceptual standpoint copied and improved upon, right? You were led by here. You stood on the shoulder of giants. Where are you at with that? What have you thought about in terms of licensing and open source and what's your stance on open source as your core or not?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Here we are. Let's start with Kafka, though, because it sounds like WarpStream's story starts with Kafka's story. Okay. What is Kafka besides a author from the early 1900s? But the open source thing, what is that thing all about?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What's interesting about those re-licenses is that they all were commercially successful companies, even at the time of the re-license. They had arrived, and at a certain size and scale, it seems that the growth curve has to continue to go vertical to satisfy investors, to satisfy public demand in the case of Hashi.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But I'm sure, I actually don't know the state of Redis Labs or the commercial success or not of Redis, but many of them were large, successful commercial companies, bigger than most companies ever get before they actually went ahead and did that not cool rug pull.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Thank you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But I wonder if the pressures on them, because it's other people's money, similar in your situation, like you have a vent VC behind you. And I'm just curious about that decision from your guys' perspective. Because you're a small team, probably well-funded in terms of you guys are highly successful software people, so you're probably making good money.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Why not bootstrap and then not have any of that VC pressure that you currently have?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
That makes sense to some degree. I don't fully agree with all of your sentiment, although that's a very deep and lengthy conversation teetering on just not fitting this conversation necessarily.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But what I can appreciate, given that I don't fully agree with all of your reasons, the one reason I think that you've done well or I suppose the most positive thing is you've made it easy to get in and get out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So if for some reason warp stream is of great benefit, and let's just say a year down the road somebody does warp not stream, and it's commercially open source, and they eat your lunch because they decided to be open source first, and they can get into that just as easily as they can get out of you, then that's a whole different story. I'm not suggesting that's going to happen, but it's...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Possible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
The exact implementation. They can literally copy everything you do and just – the world would be okay with that because they made it open source. That's a version or at least a subset of a conversation we had at length on this podcast a few weeks back with JJ, Joseph Jaxx. He was like, yeah, I'm totally cool with –
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Somebody, a founder going out there and literally copying X and saying this is now X as open source. He was totally cool with that. I'm not saying that makes sense completely to me too, but the world now believes that's an okay thing. And it's an okay thing because at the core it is meant to be an open source commons good.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I would be like, come on, man, don't do that. Well, someone's going to do it. I mean, as you guys have success now, whether or not they can actually pull it off is the question, right? But like there will be at some point as Washington continues to grow, uh, a Hacker News number one story. X is like WarpStream, only it's open source and self-hosted. And it'll get 500 to 1,000.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And maybe it gets adoption, maybe it doesn't. Maybe by then you guys are so far ahead it doesn't matter. There's tons of what-ifs, but it will happen from somewhere in the world if you're successful.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And that, of course, hit the top of hacker news and put WarpStream on the map. Today, we get the backstory on why Kafka is so widely used and who created it and for what purpose, and more importantly, the story of WarpStream.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Hey friends, I'm here with Brandon Fu, co-founder and CEO of Paragon. Paragon lets B2B SaaS companies ship native integrations to production in days with more than 130 pre-built connectors or configure own custom integrations. So Brandon, talk to me about the friction developers feel with integrations, SSO, dealing with rate limits, retries, auth, all the things. Yeah.
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Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Okay. Paragon is built for product management. It's built for engineering. It's built for everybody. Ship hundreds of native integrations into your SaaS application in days. Or build your own custom connector with any API. Learn more at useparagon.com slash changelog. Again, useparagon.com slash changelog. That's U-S-E-P-A-R-A-G-O-N dot com slash changelog.
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Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And I'm also here with Dennis Pilarinos, founder and CEO of Unblocked. Check them out at getunblocked.com. It's for all the hows, whys, and WTFs. Unblocked helps developers to find the answers they need to get their jobs done. So Dennis, you know we speak to developers. Who is Unblocked best for? Who needs to use it?
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Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
The next step to get unblocked for you and your team is to go to getunblocked.com. Yourself, your team can now find the answers they need to get their jobs done and not have to bother anyone else on the team, take a meeting, or waste any time whatsoever. Again, getunblocked.com. That's G-E-T-U-N-B-L-O-C-K-E-D.com. And get unblocked.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Okay, so what are some use cases for this? Lots of, it sounds like, well-funded companies use it, larger companies. Yeah. And I think that some of that is because of the operational complexities and the love-hate relationship with it. But why are people grabbing this particular tool often?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So let's go back to bootstrapping then. It seems like the kind of thing you could bootstrap. I mean, it's just you and Richie coding it up on nights and weekends, you know, get it rocking and rolling, keep all that equity. No, no one to answer to. You're going to get customers pretty quick. Then you can start hiring based off of your customer. Like why that decision to raise?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
That makes a lot of sense.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Had you played this game before?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I think your reasons are sound. I don't disagree, and I will not argue. Good answer. I'll give it to you. I will not argue. I think, you know, we check wisdom. While we love open source, I don't think that you would have had – I can see how going the route of venture capital and not going, as you had said, some of the burden of open source in terms of distraction was your actual word –
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I can understand that. And that's your prerogative, right? Bobby Brown is dated in terms of an artist.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Nobody knows Bobby Brown anymore.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But it's my prerogative is still a true phrase. Ryan, do you know Bobby Brown?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I grew up on Bobby Brown, so I can't help but bring it up. It's my prerogative. Yeah, it's my prerogative. Yeah, great song. You know, so it's your prerogative and it's Richie slash Richard's great name, by the way, Silicon Valley. I mean, I had to bring it. He was called Richie and his name was Richard Hendricks, but he was called Richie by his attorney.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I don't disagree with the reasoning for your direction. I hope it works out for you. I think it, it seems like it's going to, but I do agree with what Jared said, which was, there is probably going to be, if you hit critical mass and enough scale, somebody who copies what you've done and simply just says, okay, literally copy. And now it's open source and they'll be okay with that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I don't think that you should operate in a state of fear of that and make choices because of it, because that's free market, man, that's going to happen, you know, but, uh, Good on you for being able to answer these hard questions. I think you did well on that front. I don't have any argument, really. That's all I'll say.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I also think that you are a particularly easy target for the hyperscalers to reclone and host and offer because of the nature of what you're doing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Ride your coattails. Are there other competitors out there? Are there other people that are putting Kafka on object storage?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah, better way. Well, that does make sense then why you went venture capital so that you can go fast. And I think that from a visual standpoint and you've done well from a brand standpoint, I think your marketing site is pretty awesome. I mean, there's obviously always room for improvement, but it's pretty solid.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I do want to bring up the idea of pricing because I don't disagree there either that There's large corporations, enterprises, so to speak, Fortune 500s, that if you're not charging them $10,000, $20,000 a year, they're like, what's wrong with you? We can't use you. We literally need to give you a lot of money to trust you. And that's just the nature of the beast there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But when you land on your page for pricing out the gate, the TCO, total cost of ownership, is at least the default numbers that are put there, is $2,295 per month. So you're not even scaring people away. I mean, like you're literally putting your fist in their face and saying like, it costs a lot, y'all. But that's the cheap version.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
These people are probably used to paying more than that, right, Ryan?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So if you needed five gigabit write throughput, which I imagine is quite high, but let's say that you do 14 day retention. So that's two weeks retention. Not that much. We're talking 97 grand per month going to WarpStream and $1.76 million a month using Kafka. These are numbers that blow my little mind.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
It was the highest. It was five gigabits.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And the question they asked themselves was this, what would Kafka look like if it was redesigned from the ground up today to run in modern cloud environments directly on top of object storage with no local disks to manage, but still had to support the existing Kafka protocol? Well, that's just the premise for today's conversation. A massive thank you to our friends and partners over at Fly.io.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Still 10X. Still looking pretty good. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I want to point out that these are just dollars, too. This is not developer friction or operational burden or enhanced developer experience, which are the hallmark of any conversation today with dev tools, right? Like, you could be a 13-year-old tool like Kafka and get away with... And I have no idea. So no skin in the game. I've never used Kafka personally.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So if there's some haters out there, those marginal haters I mentioned earlier, don't hate on me. But there may be some warts and blemishes and burdens within the Kafka ecosystem that just makes it just challenging to operate, to stand up. Obviously, there's costs. We've already talked about that literally at length.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But I think there's something to be said about a modern take given today's cloud infrastructure with some of the dev user experience attributes I've seen you already put in place. So cost is one thing, but then happy developers is retained developers, morale boosts, maybe freedom on weekends, less pager duty, less whatever from anybody who might be competing with pager duty. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
That's a good thing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I see on the cake. What's a good next step? I mean, I feel like we've really just gone through all of it, Jared. You got anything else? I think we have. We've covered it all, man. I think we've covered every ounce of Warpstream. Ryan, thank you for being patient with our questions and going through everything and filling in all the blanks, too. I think you did a great job with this conversation.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I'm happy. I'm impressed. I think there's a lot of things I can see as quality in you as a person and also the thing that you're trying to do. I think you guys have led with some wisdom. I like a lot that you went out and talked to folks. rather than just shooting from the hip, so to speak, with your choices and letting it be opinion-based.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You seem to have leaned into the wisdom of those who've come before you with your particular target market, which I think is key to your choices. And so I'm stoked that you were able to answer the questions we asked. So thank you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Very cool. Well, warpstream.com is where you can go. We'll obviously put links in the show notes. Ryan, thank you. It's been awesome. Thanks, man. Thanks. Okay, so WarpStream seems to be what Kafka would look like if it was redesigned from the ground up to run in modern cloud environments. They didn't opt into open source, and I think Ryan had a pretty solid argument for why not.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But time will tell if an open source copycat comes along to sniff out their lunch and eat it. Until then, good for them for putting in the work to gain the conviction they have for their choices. and their position. Later this week, our game show Pound to Find is back on changelogging friends, and it was epic.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
This is the closest I've come to winning, and I was still pretty far off, and that's this Friday. Okay, big thanks to our sponsors this week. Speakeasy, love them. Newdomainspeakeasy.com. Also our friends over at Superbase celebrating launch week number 12. Superbase.com. And our friends over at Paragon, all the B2B SaaS integrations you want in a single platform, useparagon.com.
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Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And also our friends over at Unblocked for all those whys, hows, and WTFs. Check them out, getunblocked.com. And of course, to our partners over at fly.io. That is the home of changelog.com. Check them out, fly.io. And to the Beatmaster in residence, Breakmaster Cylinder, bringing those beats. Okay, that's it. This show's done. We'll see you on Friday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So Vladimir pointed us to a post which I think Adam and I, we had both already read this post because it was last year. Last summer, I believe. Kafka is dead. Long live Kafka. This was your big coming out party, it seems. A great way to introduce WarpStream. And in that post... You said that Kafka is one of the most polarizing technologies in the data space.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And then whether it was you or Richard who wrote that, then you just moved on and kept going, assuming that we all just knew why or how or like agreed that that was just true. I assume it's true. It's probably polarizing, but why is it polarizing? My guess is because it's useful, but difficult to use. And so people love it and hate it, but maybe there's more to it than that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Is anyone building or using Kafka, open source Kafka, as you said, in a scenario where they're not on public cloud, where they're building out their own infrastructure, where it's probably maybe even more harder because you're literally managing the disks. You're not ordering the disks or SRAing the disks. You're literally managing the disks. Is that a scenario that happens or is it less likely?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
More than 3 million apps have launched on Fly, and we're one of them. Scalable full stack without the cortisol. No stress. Learn more at Fly.io. Okay, let's Kafka. What's up, friends? I'm here with a new friend of mine, Sagar Bachu, co-founder and CEO at Speakeasy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Continue with the polarizing. What else is polarizing about Kafka?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What makes it so difficult to run? Is it the SSDs? I think that post also called it finicky. Is it poorly architected? Like, why is it finicky?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I do.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's a feature, though, not a bug. It is a feature, yeah. I've designed my life around it. I mean, we are homebodies. We are homeschoolers. I work from home. I have one laptop. I take it with me when I go somewhere. I got nothing to connect to back home. I mean, the Mac Mini has some old movies on it, but I'm not going to watch those. If I'm on the road, I'm going to watch whatever's on Netflix.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So young Jared would be all about Tailscale, but old Jared, I'm just like, I'm not a self-hoster. I still think it's cool tech. I remember the bad old days of Hamachi VPN, I think it was called, which was, I think, open source, but it was definitely free. is my closest analog to Tailscale, before Tailscale.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And it was cool because you could do a lot of the same stuff, but, and it was, it's pre-WireGuard even. I'm not sure how it worked. I know it was a VPN, but, you know, we had NASs in different people's houses, right? And we were syncing, we were like sharing backups with each other. Like I back up your stuff, you back up mine. I did all that stuff the hard way, you know, probably 15 years ago.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
No, I just have different interests. I like to talk about the stuff, I like to hear what people are up to, but I just don't have that hacker mindset with that kind of stuff, I just don't.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, I 100% understand that. And I understand it would be cool to have a Plex library with all the movies and all that kind of stuff that I own. But my choice when Disney does that, I just cancel Disney+. I'm like, peace out, guys. I don't need you. I'll live the simpler life.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And then I tell them, Bluey's no longer with us. Yeah. Bluey's no longer with us. So yeah, I mean, that's another trade-off, right? It's like, okay, now I've got to deal with that situation. Yeah. You can't do that to all your... to everything in your life, so you make choices.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Welcome to ChangeLog and Friends, a weekly talk show about ATO hallway vibes. Thanks to our partners at Fly.io, the home of ChangeLog.com. Launch your app in five minutes or less. Learn how at Fly.io. Okay, let's talk.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Is it a lifestyle that is worth living?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Is it sustainably so?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
No Googtober. Yeah. No Googtober?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I'm just now realizing that I've been without Google for a long time, but I've just been suffering with DuckDuckGo. And it's like, I should just replace that with Perplexity, and I won't be suffering it. I've just lived without. And I've learned how to use DuckDuckGo to the best of its abilities.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So non-self-hosted, what's their model? What's their business?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's time to take it back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Take it all back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
There you go. Good reference. I was trying to go for a Goonies reference, but it was probably too deep of a cut. Do it. I want to hear it. He's like, those dreams up there, those are other people's dreams. Down here, these are our dreams. And I'm taking them back. I'm taking them all back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Next up, we are joined by Isra Taha, a senior software engineer with over 12 years of experience. Isra is as legit as they come, yet she still struggles with self-confidence. Sound familiar? We kind of hounded her to get her on the mic. I even felt bad for a minute, but it all worked out in the end because she decided to do it and we had a great conversation. Here it is.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yes. Here we go.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Depends on how loud you're going to be. You're golden. You're golden.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So we asked you to come on the show yesterday morning.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Now it's today afternoon, but you made it. I did.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You're stepping outside your comfort zone.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Do you find that hard to do?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We kind of pushed you into this one, didn't we?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We gave her a nudge. We didn't require it of her. Constant, gentle pressure. We just wanted her to come on the show, so we're happy to have you. First time at All Things Open.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Impressions?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Lots of booths, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We're hallway trackers ourselves, aren't we, Adam? That's right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's where all the fun is. That's where we belong, you know? It is. That's where the people are.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We are taking you back to the all things open hallway track one more time to talk with some friends, new and old. First up, Alex Kretschmar, who you may remember from earlier this year when he was on the episode called Self-Hosted Media Server Goodness.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Coming to a... Hallway near you. Yeah. Don't go in there. There's no talks. The nice thing about that is you don't really even need a place to gather. You just need a hallway.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We don't need an auditorium. Would you have vendors and stuff, too? Would it be like this? Everything would be in the hallway.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, you would need a pretty big hallway.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What would be cool would be to put it in, like, an arena, but just in the hallway of the arena, the circular. Yeah. And so you would just walk in circles. You call it circles.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Well, that's not how they're designed. Oh, you want to cut through the middle.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Cool shade. This is what we do. Welcome to the podcast.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Or like an unconf, you know, like base camp style. Base camp? Bar camp. Food camp. No, not Food Camp. Bar Camp. Bar Camp. Bar Camp was a response to Food Camp. Do you know Food Camp?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay. So Food Camp stood for Friends of O'Reilly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And that's Tim O'Reilly. Tim O'Reilly. The creator of the O'Reilly Empire. Yeah. Media empire. And he had a event that was, I think, on his property or somewhere near where he lives. It was very exclusive. Invite only. You had to be a friend of O'Reilly to go.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And it was a camp. Foo camp. I think they camped out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That part might be... gray area, but the rest is true at least. And cool for everybody who gets invited, but not cool for anybody who doesn't get invited, right? So bar camp was a response to foo camp because foo bar, right? And so bar camp became a unconference where anybody can come. You don't have to be a friend of O'Reilly. You can be anybody.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And because it was an unconference, there was no preplanned schedule.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So you show up on a Saturday morning, for instance, right? Everybody gets together and there's whiteboards or even just construction paper. And there's a schedule like here's slots. And you just show up a lot like lightning talks. You just show up and like sign up for a slot. And then you just have your... You're putting together the conference as it's going.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Open Spaces. So we went to that conference in Austin in January. Were you at that one?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We wanted to go to Wisconsin. We didn't quite make it. But you did a Spaces. What was that called? Birds of a Feather? Was it called Spaces? I don't know. There was tables.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yes, and I've heard you many times.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And you would sign up. The tables were lettered or numbered. And you would sign up what we're going to be talking about at this table. And Adam, you did Home Lab or something?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah. Happy to meet you. Yeah. Mutual fans.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You think that's how you got such big numbers, like more than four?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I guess you got to do what you got to do.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So that's cool. I like the idea of, I like improvisation. I like spontaneous things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And so I really have, I've gone to a lot of bar camps over the years.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It used to be a bar camp Omaha every year for a long time. And they were just fun because you never know what you're going to get.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Adam is showing her a picture.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Of what he put on the, that conference. Right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Let me see it. I'll describe it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It says, all caps in blue across the top, Homelab, exclamation mark. That's it. Oh, no. I thought those were names. I thought people signed up. It also says now in kind of a cloudy, kind of a mixed-matched unified. Proxmox. Oh, yeah. It's a tag cloud. VLANs. Ultimate. Ultimate? Ubuntu. Ubuntu. Texas. Docker. Oh, no, TrueNAS. Texas. Can you read? Your handwriting leaves a lot to be desired.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Wi-Fi 6. Pi hold. Now, did you talk about all these? Yes. So that's not even false advertising. Now, the other one says PODCAST in all caps, and then EEN in lower caps, because I think you probably forgot to put that in there. Exclamation mark. Mics. Software. Sales. Editing. Questions. Community. Clips. Gear. That's good. That's good advertising.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You wanted a show.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You might show up and find out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I think it stands for fidelity, but that could be wrong. But yeah, wireless networks, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And 6 is just better than 5, you know? Yeah. It's the next version. Better than 4, too. It's here, though, right? Wi-Fi 6. Wi-Fi 6. It's here. Many devices are Wi-Fi 6 enabled, but not all of them.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's a wider pipe but not a faster pipe. Cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
If you were to command a space and advertise it, did you do that at that conference? Did you start one?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay. I'm not a hater. We have shipit.show. We do. But that's because we could not get shipit.fm.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's cool. So if you're going to start a space, though, you're going to step outside your comfort zone. And next year at that conference, I'm going to run a space.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
How do you keep up in the React Native world?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Brand new architecture, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What else, man? Anything else?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, that's probably expensive. Yeah. That's a nice domain.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Awesome.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Now you're a podcaster.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Damn. You did it. I did.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We all did it. It's done.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's fun. You just talk to each other.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Our final two conversations are with a husband and wife pair, but we speak to each of them separately because they had their son and daughter with them at the event, which is awesome, but means they had to take turns on kid duty. First up, Avindra Fernando, an independent software consultant. After Avi, we speak with his wife, Aditi Ravachandran. Aditi is an independent software consultant.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Is there an echo in here? No. Is there a power couple in here? I think so. Well, we're here with Avi Fernando? Fernando. Fernando. We're here with, I was about to call you Abby. I just changed the A sound. Abby. I'm Abby now, y'all. Avi Fernando. That's right. From Kansas. Kansas City. Kansas City. Born and raised? Not born and raised. Born in Sri Lanka. Okay, Sri Lanka.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
How did you get to Kansas? How did I get to Kansas?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Rock Chalk Jayhawk. Oh, Rock Chalk. Yeah, absolutely. Sorry, we speak a different language here in the Midwest.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I said Rock Chalk Jayhawk. Rock Chalk Jayhawk, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's their saying. Rock Chalk Jayhawk. That's our chant. Yeah. The KU Jayhawks. Jock's the motto. They're the Jayhawks. The mascot. Rock, Jock, Jayhawk. Rock, Chock, Jayhawk. Rock, Chock, Jayhawk. That's right. Yes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I did not go to KU. All right. But I've been there many a times, and I know the chance because I live nearby. All right, so you're 19, moved from Sri Lanka to Kansas, of all places. That's right. Yeah. And then you never go back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Got married, started a family, started a business.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Probably skipping over a lot of life there, but.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
In lockstep.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's good stuff. Yeah. And you are a React guy?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What's your list of specialties? Why'd you list our specialties for you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And you are running your own business?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Gotcha. So you were kind of a weekend warrior at that point.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You had a job.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I was wondering because for a lot of people going into their own business, especially a services business like a consultancy, the question is how do I get that flywheel going? Do I just quit my job and take the leap or do I weekend warrior it for a while? So did you have a plan from the start or was it just kind of like opportunistic? Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
The best time is now. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And so you've been doing that for three years?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What's the hardest part?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I still haven't had to. The larger the org, the less they care.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Meantime to payment. Here's a pro tip on your terms. Take that net 30 and turn it into due upon receipt. Yep. Because if they're big enough, they're not going to care anyways. They're going to pay you when they want to. And if they're small, they'll take that net 30 very seriously, and they'll pay on the 30th day.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So if you just change that to due upon receipt, and if they're serious, they'll just pay you as fast as they can. But the other ones will ignore you anyways, so they're not going to pay attention to your net 30. It won't really matter that much, but you might as well try to get paid as fast as possible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
But yeah, the larger ones, it's like you're a vendor in a system.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
The nice thing is, though, on the larger ones, is once you get that deal set up, and you're in the system, and you're on those terms... they will actually pay you reliably. Whereas the smaller customers, they might run out of money in the meantime or something and just not have the money to pay you. I certainly hit that as well with my time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So when I first started, I thought to myself, if I want to work 40 hours a week and I can bill X dollars per hour, I think it was like 75 when I started, and I can get that 80% of the time, then I'll make this much money. Does that dog hunt? And you look at that number and you're like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I can live off of that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What I didn't realize is that working 40 hours a week, if that's what you want to do, which is what I wanted to do, and billing anywhere close to 40 hours a week, those two things don't happen, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's a dream.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So what percentage of your working hours are you billing? Is it 50%, 80%? Because you're a solo consultant, right? So you don't have any help on anything, maybe some software doing some stuff?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
But like everything that has to happen in your business, you're doing it or software is doing it. How much of your time are you billing on a weekly percentage wise? Don't need hours.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And you have a large customer, which helps.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
But you got an 80-20 rule on your customers. Like currently you have an 80% customer. Yeah. And everything else. Yes. Yes. So that helps you get to that 80% billable.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
If you had... three smaller customers at the same time and no larger one, you'd spend more of your time trying to fill that pipeline.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And if that 80 turns into zero, now you're like flip-flopped. So there's risks on either side.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
There's no perfect way to set it up.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
and i have a bunch of them so the way i look at it is i got six kids and i look at it like every year i lose six years yeah you know because all six of them get one year older that's right so that's six years they've actually gained on a single year and so how precious is each one of those oh absolutely you know yeah once they're all adults those years won't matter quite as much but right now they're not coming back i'm about to start crying man yeah
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Look at the three of us here. It's hitting me hard. Although, Avi's got us beat because his kids are literally with him. Yes. Last year, I had a son with me and the year before, but... Yeah, I considered bringing my son, and I really wanted to bring him.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
How old is he?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
He's a little young. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
He was like... He's flexing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You're cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's true. They're still in lockstep. Yeah. Look at that. After all these years. So you're doing the consultancy. What does she do then?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
All right, so you're both kind of doing everything the same. Now, is one of you better than the other?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, exactly. You might as well minimize your costs.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yes, because I listened to your guys' episode.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So we need to decide right now before she gets here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And if she does.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Power couple.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Did you know that before that? I didn't know that before that. It was proof you were listening then.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Or very smart. I think it's pretty smart.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
A little bit of both. There's a fine line between a crazy person and a wise person, isn't there? Any twins in there? Nope. Okay. All organic. I'm a power dad.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's right. Well, thanks for chatting with us, Avi. It was fun. Oh, absolutely, yeah. Well, thanks for having me. It was a blast. It was the best.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
These are people that have been on the show. Those are not you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Well, we're not doing video here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So this will be audio only, but... What did you have for breakfast?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We're just sound checking, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Mm-hmm. And coffee?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Lots of coffee?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I had two eggs, over easy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
No toast. No toast. I had some hash browns. Light fruit. And one strawberry. And one slice of orange.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
The breakfast of champions. I remember it like it was just this morning.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, I know how that goes too.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
For sure. My mom used to do that constantly. We call her like the garbage disposal because she would not let anything get thrown away. And whatever was left over, she's like, just give it to me. She was never happy about it. She's like, I'll eat that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I'm going to eat it now. We're not throwing anything away, which I appreciate that sentiment. But it's like, well, you're just taking in empty calories on our behalf, mom.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, totally. So we spoke with Avi yesterday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So we got his side of the story.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Let's hear the real story. He told us that you guys met at KU.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And you're still together.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah. Two kids.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Two businesses. Yeah. And so you're doing very similar things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
How did you get into it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And so when you graduated from KU, you had an engineering degree?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
One step in front of the other, huh?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And now you're doing mobile apps or something?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And between you and your husband, who's the better software engineer?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So she's not going to answer that one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Because you've tried and it didn't work, or you never tried it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I think that sounds healthy. What do you think, Adam? It's not bad. Yeah. I don't disagree, but I enjoy working with my wife, so.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I can't. You might be missing out on something you didn't realize.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I said to him, I said to Avi, power couple.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Just in the business side, obviously.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Like that story in a different space is the beginning for so many people. It's really rinse and repeat in your little niche and there's like not guaranteed success. But if you do it long enough, I mean, you're going to bring so much value to so many people.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Do you charge a referral fee?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
dinner out or anything you know dinner's on him you should do it you guys are giving me ideas you should do it in like marital favors that's what we do and there's lots of ways you could take that obviously yeah but i should yeah i would leverage it yeah every time i send you a referral i get a manicure and a pedicure or something yeah if you're into that kind of thing the joker said the best thing he said if you're good at something don't do it for free yeah
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Do you see yourself scaling beyond what your parents did with your business?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What about family?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Scaling your family?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
No.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's a lot. That was a quick one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah. I got 2.5.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Well, that's exciting.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Good luck to you. Thanks for stopping by and talking with us.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's all and that's it. Our All Things Open 2024 hallway track coverage ends right here. Well, that's not 100% true, I guess, because we do have a ChangeLog++ members-only episode coming soon, so stay tuned for that if you are a++ supporter. Otherwise, yeah, this is it. Until next year, at least. One more shout-out to all of our guests on this Anthology episode.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You were doing so well. Is that how you do it right? You were doing so well.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, it's a pretty cool brand You've never had it? Maybe I have. I'm just not a butter snob, so I don't know if I've had it or not. I think my Wi-Fi is the worst of the butter.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's vodka. I would tend to agree that butter is hard to go wrong with. It's just really good.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Butter's the way. Especially grass-fed Irish cows. That's right, man. What do you mean? You don't do butter tasting? I butter taste all the time, man. Daily, pretty much daily, I taste some butter. Butter's good. Butter's good.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Great lighting, too. Yeah. Very nice.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Oh, Factorio. Oh, that's the game, right? Yeah. Like some sort of a builder game? Yeah. I haven't played it, so I'm literally ignorant right here. I'm telling you how much I know about it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
But that one... What's different about that one?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So Chris Hiller on JS Party is big into that game. And he was trying to tell me about it. And I was like, I don't want to try playing that because I'll probably never stop.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Like a grind? Are you grinding?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And the joy, I guess, would be similar joys.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, I use video games now as like a decompression from work, you know, 45 minutes to an hour after I'm done working.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Put everything else away and just play for an hour and then I can be done and move on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Oh, yeah. I played Geometry Dash way back in the day. Oh, yeah? I moved on from it because I was kind of addicted to it. Do you ever move on from it? Well, maybe not. I mean, it changes you. Yeah. But, yeah, I love Geometry Dash. I just don't play it anymore.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We should give BMC some Geometry Dash.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, I got big into Roller Coaster Tycoon and SimCity. Oh, yeah. After that, I kind of moved away from builders myself. Yeah. But now it's Rocket League. My kids like Rocket League, and now I like it. And so we play it together, which is great. Co-op.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So you're talking about things. You try to self-host everything you can. What services do you not self-host and why?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Well, they're changing things. Are they? Bitwarden? Yeah, Bitwarden relicensed an SDK. I thought I saw they reversed that, though.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
This was like last week, though. So there's news since then?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Because they pushed. There was pushback.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So they reversed course. That's cool. I'm glad to hear that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Are you happy with that?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Gotcha.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Photos is interesting because we've debated photos recently. We did. That's kind of a hard line of... Like the one thing you don't want to mess up?