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Appearances
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
And so that final state of glorification does not come until the return of Christ.
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
This has been Ask Ligonier with me, Nathan W. Bingham. If you have a biblical question that you'd like to pose to one of our future guests, leave us a voicemail by calling 1-800-607-9386. That number again is 1-800-607-9386. And you can always record that question on your smartphone and email it to us at askligoniervm at ligonier.org.
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
Rev. Ken Jones is joining us this week on the Ask Ligonier podcast, and he's the pastor of Glendale Missionary Baptist Church in Miami. Rev. Jones, when does glorification happen? At our death or at Christ's return?
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
And if you'd like to go back and browse the entire archive of answers, you can find them at ask.ligonier.org slash podcast.
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
at Christ's return. That's an easy one. And I say easy, but it is layered because Paul's wonderful chain in Romans 8, 29 and 30. And at the end of it, he says those that he has justified, he has glorified. So what does glorification mean? It means to be incorruptible. It means a final state. And so that state and what happens in our death is that our soul is in the presence of God.
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
I was wondering when glorification happens. Is it at our death or at Christ's return? Thank you.
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
But God created us body and soul. But the body is separated. And Paul's language and logic in 1 Corinthians 15 is that the mortal must give way to immortality. And that which is corruptible must give way to that which is incorruptible. So right now, Paul could say in Romans 8.30 that we are, if we are justified, then we are glorified to go back to that chain again.
Ask Ligonier
When Does Glorification Happen--at Our Death or at Christ's Return?
What God has decreed is the guarantee that it will come about. So those who have genuine saving faith in him, who are justified in him or by him, ultimately, they will be glorified. And in the minds of God, we are glorified. But the reality of glorification, which means a mind and body that not only does not sin, but cannot, that's the final state.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
It's an investment of your time, of your finances. And maybe if your family's assisting you, it's an investment of their finances in you. It's also an investment, especially if you're at a Christian college, of donors who have enabled that college to be there and enable you to be there to study.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And it's an investment of time, of the administration, of the staff, and certainly of the faculty as they are educating you. And again, if it's a Christian college, also seeking to disciple you. So college is an investment. College also is intense investment. a lot is concentrated into a short amount of time in college.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
There's a lot of introductory courses, so intro to philosophy or intro to sociology or intro to theology. And so you have professors who are experts in those fields, and they've studied for decades in those fields, and they've got to compress all of that field into one semester. And it may feel like you're sitting in class drinking at a fire hose because you, in fact, So, college is just intense.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Everything about it is intense. And also, if you are a college student, here's one thing we can say for sure. It's your vocation. It's your calling. If you're there, God has put you there. God has called you to that, and it is your post. Calvin loved to talk about vocation, and Calvin would say, whether you are a pot washer or Or you are on sentry duty. This is your calling of God.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And so college is an investment. It is very intense. And it is your calling. You are to apply yourself to it. So that's college. Now let's think about what church is. Church is the God-ordained institution. So church is God-ordained, and what that means is it is absolutely essential and central to your Christian life.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Dr. Nichols, we have a question from a new college student, and they're wanting to know how can they balance their workload in school with their desire to serve and minister in their local church?
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
So now we have two important things that can be very demanding, and now we have to balance them. And here's where you begin to learn what is very important to learn as you go through college, not just knowledge, but wisdom. And so how can we wisely balance pursuing our education as a calling and our ministry in the church? Well, let me just say a few things. First, you need to attend church.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
You need to attend church joyfully, and you need to attend church attentively. So that means you're not out all hours of Saturday night and then finding yourself trying to hold your eyelids open during the Sunday morning service. So attend joyfully and attend attentively to the service. But as far as service goes,
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
I would say, and this is a principle for whatever stage of life you find yourself in, look for areas of service that are compatible with your training, with your gifting, with your age, and that are compatible with your time and attention to those other callings in your life. So I'll give you an example of this. I have a friend who's a CPA, and he loves to teach Sunday school.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
But their church is set up with a quarterly Sunday school system, and they have a wide pool, a deep bench of Sunday school teachers. So he's never able to teach in quarter one and quarter two because he is just so busy with his practice that the time he has, he needs to make sure he gives proper attention to his family, and there's not a whole lot of time left over.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
But when it gets to quarter three and quarter four, now he's able to teach Sunday school. And so in a sense, you could see your college life like that. It's a season of life. There's an intensity there. And you may have desires to do things, but those things you have desires to do may not be compatible with the time and attention that you have.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Well, first of all, let me say to you, congratulations on being a college student. I remember talking to Dr. Sproul about just how wonderful it is to teach in colleges. And he said the reason that he loved teaching in college, and actually the reason that he wanted to start a college was, and he was very frank, he said, I want their minds.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Or take, for instance, a family and we have a young mom with an infant or a father with a young infant. Well, that might be a time where they're not able to pursue a certain ministry in the church. And later in a season in life, they'd be able to. So this is something that's going to be with you your whole life.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And I think you have to be, again, careful to just look for those areas of service beyond attending that are compatible with where you are in life and the time and attention you can give to it. We need to recognize that we are finite creatures and we all have the same amount of time in a week.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And we have to steward that time well so that the opportunities that God has given and put in front of us, we are optimizing and we are making the most of. And I'll just say one more thing. The service that you might want to be doing in church or can be doing while you're in college will likely not be the service you'll do as an older adult in church.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
How can college students balance their education with their service and ministry in the church? Joining me this week for the Ask Ligonier podcast is Dr. Stephen Nichols. He's a Ligonier Ministries teaching fellow and also the president of Reformation Bible College.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And that's okay because you need to have some more gifting, more developing, and just more life and wisdom and seeing the application of scriptures in your life for some of those teaching ministries and some of those other ministries that may come to you later in life. But those opportunities to serve are there.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
And if you can serve where you're needed most and be faithful in those opportunities to serve, I fully believe that God honors that by bringing opportunities to us later in life as we serve faithfully. So God bless in your studies. God bless as you serve the church and as you balance that intensity and that calling of being a student with being a member of your church.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
I'm Nathan W. Bingham, and this has been Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. If you'd like to ask a biblical question for a future episode, you can always call us at 1-800-607-9386, or record that question on your smartphone and email it to us at askligoniervm at ligonier.org. And if you like the show, please leave a review on your favorite podcast app.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
Because we learn from sociologists that your sort of mental development and sort of the development of you and your worldview really takes place in two moments in your life when you're in that four to six, two to six for some people, age span, and then college. So these are very important years in your life.
Ask Ligonier
I Am a New College Student. How Do I Balance My Education and My Ministry in the Church?
So let me just encourage you to make the most out of your college experience as you develop your worldview and affirm and go deeper on your convictions and set that trajectory for your life. And you're asking a very important question. How do you balance your education with ministry in the church? Well, first, let's just think a little bit about college. First of all, college is an investment.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And so if you put those two words together, it means to lead from the beginning or to lead from the outset. And so as it is applied to Christ, Jesus is the author or the pioneer, and that's really probably the better translation, because as the pioneer, he is the one who has led from the beginning. He is the one who went from the beginning. He went from the outset.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
He was the one who went early on and led. And the second word in Hebrews 12.2, Jesus is both the author or pioneer and finisher or end. perfecter of our faith. The word there is very helpful because it is related to the same word that Jesus used when he said on the cross, it is finished.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And so it speaks to Christ's perfect life, law-keeping life, fulfilling each and every aspect of the law of God, fulfilling the righteous demands of the law of God, so that when he died, his life that was perfect and sinless, even though he was tempted in every way as we are yet without sin, that Christ's life is the basis of our righteousness. He earned it for us.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And so we are saved by his works, his righteousness, his perfect life, so that when he died, his death would be a sacrificial atonement, a substitutionary and a vicarious atonement that was finished for us. So when Hebrews speaks of Jesus being the author or founder or pioneer of our faith and the finisher of our faith, it's not only saying that he's gone before us, that he's gone from the outset.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
but also that He has finished it for us. He has completed it for us, that we are secure. That's why the author of Hebrews tells us to look to Him, and not just to look to Him, but to fix our eyes on Him, because He is our hope. He is the one who's gone before us. He has won the victory, and we have nothing else ultimately to fear.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
You have been listening to Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. R.C. Sproul founded this ministry, and for over five decades, we've been helping Christians know what they believe, why they believe it, how to live it, and how to share it. To learn more about Ligonier, download the free Ligonier app from your favorite app store or visit Ligonier.org.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
The language of Jesus being the author and perfecter of our faith comes from Hebrews 12 and verse 2. And I think a lot of Christians really don't understand what those words mean because they've been translated variously in different Bible translations. Sometimes we hear the word author. Sometimes we hear the word pioneer. Sometimes it's even translated as founder.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
What does it mean that Christ is the author and perfecter of our faith? This week on the Ask Ligonier podcast, we're joined by Dr. Burke Parsons. He serves as Ligonier's chief editorial officer and is also the senior pastor at St. Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Florida. Dr. Parsons, what does it mean when Scripture speaks of Christ being the author and perfecter of our faith?
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
So that Jesus is the founder and perfecter, or the author and finisher, or the pioneer and finisher of our faith. And so I think a lot of Christians are confused about what do those words mean? And just as importantly, how do we understand those words and how do they apply to our lives?
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
Especially as we look to Jesus as the author and perfecter of our faith, which is what the author of Hebrews is telling us to do in our fight against sin, in all of our struggles. What does it mean that he is the author and perfecter of our faith? Well, let's look at those words individually. First of all, we have the word author or founder, or as it's translated elsewhere as pioneer.
Ask Ligonier
What Does It Mean That Christ Is the Author and Perfecter of Our Faith?
And that word in the original language is comprised of two words. The first part of the word is the word ark. And of course, we have cognate to that word in English. We have archaeology and archetype. And essentially, that word means early or first or beginning or from the outset. The second word in that compound Greek word is the word ago, which means I lead.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Sproul was a fantastically clear communicator. And for all his intellectual ability, he gave his life to communicating Christian theology to ordinary Christians who had never been to seminary. So that, I think, is where I would begin.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Another book I might recommend, which is a much older book, but a very attractive book, is a book by a man called Thomas Watson, who was a minister in London in the 17th century. And I think he must have been a fantastic minister to have. He had a tremendous reputation.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
ability to express Christian theology in ways that are digestible and also with a great warmth and with some wonderful illustrations and even some great Latin phrases. Even if you don't know any Latin, you know, it's kind of attractive to read and to think about. And I think they're translated in the modern version. So everyone's a theologian and body of divinity.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Then the next stage, there is a book that I think is really a very beautiful exposition of Christian theology written by the Dutch theologian Herman Bavinck. It was translated into English, I think, in the 1950s and published then as Our Reasonable Faith. And it's been more recently republished in a much more attractive edition called
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
with the original title of Magnalia Dei, The Great Works of God. And Bavinck was a theologian of the first rank, a wonderful theologian. And this is a quite separate book that he wrote for Christians in general. It's, I think, probably more challenging than either Dr. Sproul or Thomas Watson, But it's a very engaging book. He just writes with a lovely warmth.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
And I think that's a book that teaches you that high-level theological thinking can be very beautiful to read. Then beyond that, I think you come to the stage where you're starting reading systematic theology textbooks. And a book I used a lot when I was a teenager and into my 20s, now probably about 80 years old, I think, is a book called Systematic Theology written by Louis Berkhoff.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
It is not the most readable book in the world, but it's absolutely jam-packed with information. And I think that's very helpful. And then to crown it all is a four-volume systematic theology by the same man, Herman Bavinck, which has been translated into English only, I think, in the last 30 years. And it is really just an outstanding exposition of theology with great warmth.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
Well, asking questions about books today is asking to select out of probably thousands and thousands of good books that are available to us. But when people ask particularly about theology books and systematic theology books,
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
And then, if you're still game for more, there are modern systematic theologies by people that listeners to Ligonier broadcast are probably familiar with, perhaps especially Joel Beakey's multi-volume work on systematic theology, Michael Horton's work on systematic theology, Bob Letham's work on systematic theology. And these are larger and they're all written by native English speakers.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
They're written by people who are living in the modern world and therefore, in a way, are more up to date. So those books, I think, would keep people going on a summer vacation and into the long winter nights. And I think they're all very helpful indeed.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
This is Nathan W. Bingham, and you've been listening to Ask Ligonier. If you like the show, why not subscribe or write a review on your favorite podcast app? If you'd like more information or for the archive of episodes, simply visit ask.ligonier.org slash podcast.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
What are some good systematic theology books to help believers grow in their faith? This week we're joined by the vice chairman of Ligonier Ministries, Dr. Sinclair Ferguson. He's also a Ligonier Ministries teaching fellow. Dr. Ferguson, what systematic theologies would you recommend to a Christian to help them grow in their faith?
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
I think we can start from what I would recommend to somebody who was beginning right through to what I might recommend to somebody who had already studied a lot of Christian doctrine and theology. So the book I recommend to people who are beginning is Dr. Sproul's book, Everyone's a Theologian. for a couple of reasons. One is because the title takes people by surprise.
Ask Ligonier
What Are Some Good Systematic Theology Books to Help Believers Grow in Their Faith?
And by the title, he's echoing Martin Luther actually in the title, but by the title, he is helping people to realize that it's not just some people who are to think theologically, but that we all think theologically. It's just that we either think well theologically or bad theologically. And it's written for ordinary Christians. It's superbly well written. R.C.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And I think it's not only important, but I think it's liberating for us to understand that God understands our chronic sickness, and He wants us to take care of ourselves. And that's not just an option, that's actually a command. That's part of what it means to love ourselves as we love our neighbors.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
We want to care for our neighbors, but it really is a command that we should also care for ourselves. And I'm struck by the fact that when Paul writes to Timothy, remember, he says to Timothy, who obviously himself suffered from some kind of chronic sickness. It seemed to be gastric in nature, but maybe affected other parts of his anatomy.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
He says to him, make sure you take care of yourself and take a little wine for your stomach's sake. And he actually says, stop drinking water. And I think that's an indication that there was some conflict in Timothy and that Paul is saying, Timothy, you will not be of use in the kingdom unless you take care of yourself. So it's really important to do that.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And I think it's also releasing to know that the Scriptures encourage us to do that. Because often as Christians, we have this inner drive to do more. And sometimes that drive can lead us astray. So I would say that's the first thing.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
I think the second thing I would say is that in the very nature of the case, a chronic sickness or chronic illness is not only physical, it also usually affects us emotionally and psychologically, and therefore can also affect us spiritually. it can make us prone to discouragement and even depression.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
If there is in your church a friend with a cheerful spirit, but who is also not irritatingly cheerful, who has a sympathetic spirit, then cultivate that friendship. And then I think most of all in this connection, keep your eyes fixed on Christ because he understands you and he is sympathetic.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
Dr. Ferguson, we have a question this week from someone who suffers from a chronic illness, and they'd like to know how they can balance sacrificial love and service to others with taking care of their own body.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And then the third major thing I think I would say is we live in an evangelical subculture where our spiritual value is often measured by what we do, whereas in Scripture our spiritual value is measured by two things. One is how much God loves us because He's given His Son for us. And the second thing is, what matters to Him is not so much what we do, but who we are and what we become.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And you do not need to be doing as a Christian to minister to others. Just your being, the way you are as a Christian, even the way you handle chronic sickness as a Christian, leaves its mark on others. I think I saw that many, many years ago.
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How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
A man I knew who had been at university for quite a number of years when I arrived at university, and because he had various illnesses, including a brain tumor that was operated on at least a couple of times, we ended up in the same year in theological studies and became very good friends. He was a very unusual person, really unusual person.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And eventually he was really debilitated in many ways by his illness. And he went to be with the Lord. And afterwards, he was doing a doctorate at the time, but he was quite a bit older than I was. And I was given his papers to see if I could make something of them. And I wrote a little memoir of him with some things that he had done.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
But as I looked at the papers, I was really puzzled because I couldn't, I was looking for something that told me this is what this man's life was for. You know, a kind of tangible fruit of his life. And then it dawned on me that that actually wasn't what God purposed him to be for. and that the really important thing about him was not what he accomplished, but what God made him.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
Because you couldn't be with him without seeing how God had given him grace to be strong in the midst of his weakness and to keep looking to Christ in the midst of his affliction. And he was a great example to me of that principle. It doesn't matter what you do or what you can't do, but that God ministers to others through what you are.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
Well, suffering from chronic illness is a suffering that other people don't always see. And I think that in itself can present certain challenges to people. You know, if you break a leg, people are sympathetic and you discover an amazing number of people seem to have broken a leg as well. And there's a community of sympathy.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
As someone who suffers from a chronic illness, how do I balance service to others with taking care of my own body? Joining us this week on the Ask Ligonier podcast is Dr. Sinclair Ferguson, a Ligonier Ministries teaching fellow and also our vice chairman here at Ligonier.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
And I think that's a very helpful thing to remember when, you know, our powers are lessened, not just through chronic illness, but also when we get older. and we feel we're not doing as much as we used to be able to do. That it's who we are in the family of God that really matters.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
I'm Nathan W. Bingham, and this has been Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. To browse our growing library of podcasts, including Renewing Your Mind, Ultimately with R.C. Sproul, Things Unseen with Sinclair B. Ferguson, and others, simply search for Ligonier Ministries in your favorite podcast app.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
But I think one of the things that happens with somebody who experiences chronic sickness is that with it they can feel quite isolated. And that sometimes produces a certain sense of conflict within them that they want to do more to serve Christ, but they don't feel able to do more. So I think I would say certain things.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Balance Serving Others with Dealing with My Chronic Illness?
The first is to remember what the cabin staff say when they speak to you at the beginning of a flight, that in an emergency, there will be masks that will drop, you hope, from these compartments above you. And if you're carrying somebody who's a child or you're with somebody who is unwell, make sure you put your own mask on before you help somebody else.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
with respect, and we'll see later, Peter's going to use the word to talk to unbelievers and non-Christians of reverence, but with respect, and then also to back up our message, as it were, with the lifestyle and with the conduct. So what is true for these believing wives of unbelieving husbands is also true for believing sons and daughters of unbelieving parents.
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How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Your question was framed so well that, yes, you need to love and you need to respect. God has ordained the family. It is a part of the natural law, the natural order of things that we talk about. And whether they're Christians or non-Christians, all children are to obey their parents and to honor their parents. It's part of the Ten Commandments, which is a codification of natural law.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And so having family relationships that are loving, that are kind, that are respectful are required of all of us as Christians and non-Christians, but especially required of us as Christians. And that's not contingent on those other family members being Christians. The other place where we can get some insight is a little bit later in 1 Peter 3.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Now here, Peter is not talking at all about family relationships. He's just talking about Christians and non-Christians. And so Peter says at 1 Peter 3.15, "...but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you." Yet, he adds, do it with gentleness and respect.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Well, first let's look at the activity there. Peter says you need to be ready. If you get asked, why do you have this hope? Why are you a Christian? You need to be ready to give an answer. So you need to be prepared. So you ask, how do I witness to my parents? Well, anticipate some of the questions they might ask. You know them. You know what objections they might have.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
They might think that, well, all Christians are hypocrites. Well, be ready to respond to that. They may have doubts about the Bible. Can it really be authoritative? Can it be trustworthy? Anticipate that and be ready to give an answer for that. So we call this apologetics. In fact, we get that word from this verse.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
The words that are translated to make a defense is actually the Greek word apologia, and that's from which we get apologetics. But Peter's not only interested in the message, he is interested in the message, but he's also interested in how we convey the message, not just the content and not just being willing to give that answer, but how we give it and the manner that we give it.
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How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Of course, if God has opened your eyes to the truth of the gospel, you want that for the people in your life. You want that for your loved ones. You want that for your siblings and your parents and your friends. So I can really appreciate where the question is coming from. Fortunately, we have help because Scripture helps us on this. In 1 Peter chapter 3, Peter writes.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And so he says, yet do it with gentleness and respect. Now that word translated respect in the ESV, is the same Greek word back in 1 Peter 2, verse 17. And back in 1 Peter 2, verse 17, we read, "'Honor everyone, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the emperor.'" Now that expression, fear God, is of course the word phobia, from which we get phobia in English.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
It's the same word over in 1 Peter 3.15. We could easily translate respect there as fear. So one way you can't witness to your parents is by being unloving, unkind, and argumentative. That's not following Peter's advice here, whether it's the specific advice to wives and their husbands earlier in the chapter or to all non-Christians in the middle of the chapter. So think very much about that.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And then lastly, I would say pray. Just pray. You know, there's all kinds of stories from church history of mothers praying for their wayward sons. Probably there's no better story than Monica and Augustine. And well, she might have done more than pray because she also followed Augustine wherever he went all around the Mediterranean world and kept tabs on him.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
I believe one time Augustine slipped out in the middle of the night, did not tell her where he was going. She found him anyway. So that might be extreme. But one of the things Monica never stopped doing was praying for Augustine. And decades later, God answered those prayers. So we hear lots of stories of of parents praying for their sons and daughters, prodigals, to come home.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
How can I properly love, honor, and witness to my non-Christian parents? This week on the Ask Ligonier podcast, we're joined by the president of Reformation Bible College, Dr. Stephen Nichols. He also serves as a teaching fellow at Ligonier Ministries. Dr. Nichols, how can a Christian love, honor, and witness to their unbelieving parents? Hmm. That's a great question.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And so we also need to recognize that God wants the sons and daughters to pray for the unbelieving parents. And so that's very important to do in this process of loving and honoring and respecting and witnessing, is to pray. And I have no doubt that you do. But let me just encourage you to be steadfast and persevere in those prayers.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
I'm Nathan W. Bingham, and this has been Ask Ligonier, a podcast from Ligonier Ministries. If you'd like to ask a biblical question for a future episode, you can always call us at 1-800-607-9386, or record that question on your smartphone and email it to us at askligoniervm at ligonier.org. And if you like the show, please leave a review on your favorite podcast app.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
Now, he's not talking about children to their parents and sons and daughters to their parents. He's talking about wives to their husbands. But I think it applies. And Peter says, likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands so that even if some do not obey the word. So what we're talking about here is wives who find themselves with husbands who are not believers.
Ask Ligonier
How Can I Love, Honor, and Witness to My Non-Christian Parents?
And Peter uses that expression, who do not obey the word, to represent unbelievers. So wives married to unbelieving husbands, Peter says to them, Be subject to your own husbands, even if they don't obey the word, so they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives. He goes on to say, when they see your respectful and pure conduct. So this is where we need to begin.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, Maximoff doesn't explicitly state that. But he does raise some serious questions.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Even when it's pursued in the name of noble goals.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Those ideals of equality and justice.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
What Maximoff does so brilliantly is make us confront these questions.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And the potential for even the most well-intentioned ideologies to be twisted into instruments of oppression.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
The only way to like truly achieve revolution.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's not just about the Russian Revolution. It's about understanding the dynamics of power.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's about recognizing the warning signs.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
That can indicate when a revolution is veering off course.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But Maximoff does make us think twice about revelationary violence.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
He makes us really consider the costs.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
No matter our political beliefs.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's definitely been a journey.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's like Maximoff gives us this new lens to view history through. And maybe even the world around us.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
I think the most important lesson is never take freedom for granted.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Oh, yeah. It was a foundation laid by Marx himself.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Always be skeptical. Always be questioning.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Even when it's difficult. Even when it's dangerous.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But it ultimately, I think it's left us with more hope than despair.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Because knowledge is power. And the more we understand about the past, the better equipped we are to avoid repeating those mistakes.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Never stop seeking the truth. That's the best way to honor the legacy of those who fought for a better world.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's a reminder that we all have a responsibility to shape the future.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
I know what you're going to say.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
So that we can create a world that is truly just and free.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But what's so chilling is how this phrase, straight from Marx and Engels, it became the bedrock for the Bolsheviks' increasingly harsh actions.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah, to silence anyone they considered an enemy of the revolution. And remember, this is the time.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
The supposed champion of the people.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
even other socialist and anarchist groups.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
So this is where Maximoff's distinction between enemies and adversaries becomes so important.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
How it all began, how it was established.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah, the classic class enemy.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah, even if they were kind of fighting for similar goals.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
When the Bolsheviks straight up attacked anarchist organizations.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Nope. A couple of months later, they kicked the social revolutionists and social democrats out of the Soviets.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
You're either with us or against us.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Maximoff makes that connection to the French Revolution.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Not just admired the Jacobins, but saw terror as a necessary tool for revolutionary success.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah. Maximoff reveals Lenin's plan went beyond just executions.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah. And compares them to like the writings of Marx and Engels.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Using the state's control over food?
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's where things get especially dark.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
One of the areas where Maximoff's analysis really stands out.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Among many, he believed he had discovered an even more potent weapon. Control over the basic necessities of life.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
He was trying to control their stomachs.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Makes terror by starvation so chilling.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, Maximoff quotes Lenin extensively on this. And it's in these quotes where we see the truly terrifying logic.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
More powerful tools of control than any law or execution.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And remember, this was a time of massive food shortages, skyrocketing inflation.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Lenin's terror by starvation wasn't about literally starving everyone to death.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It was about using the state's control over food distribution to reward loyalty and punish dissent.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
They wouldn't dare challenge it.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It was about transforming the very act of eating into a political act.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Maximoff takes us on quite a journey.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Maximoff goes on to show how this system of control, this terror by starvation, had devastating consequences for the Russian people and laid the groundwork for even greater horrors. But we'll save that for the next part of our deep dive. Buckle up, because it's about to get even more intense.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Oh, you will be. So we left off talking about this terror by starvation and how it created this system of control.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It really was. And you know what's wild is it wasn't just about punishing active resistance. Maximoff, he digs into this idea of passive resistance that Lenin was obsessed with.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Like Lenin's this champion of the people, right?
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Basically, yeah, Lenin claims that the most harmful and dangerous kind of resistance.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Just not being fully on board with the program.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Praising those democratic ideals of the Paris commune.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah. Not meeting those quotas.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Oh, yeah. That's some serious thought control, right?
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
I mean, it sounds crazy, but that's what Maximoff is showing us.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Oh, absolutely. And this is where Maximoff's attention to historical detail really shines.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Exactly. He wasn't just theorizing from some ivory tower.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Especially those who refused to sell their grain at the state's fixed prices.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Terrible deal for the farmers.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
You got it, Liz Liu's situation.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
No, he went all in on the rhetoric.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah, this is going to be a wild one.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, that's the glaring contradiction that Maximoff highlights.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And what Maximoff does so well is use quotes.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But then alienating and antagonizing vast segments of the population.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah, it's kind of mind-boggling when you think about it.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Seems incredibly short-sighted.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And it gets worse. Maximoff describes how Lenin unleashes these committees of poor peasants.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
They were given free reign to confiscate grain and crush any resistance.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
You know it, classic divide and conquer.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It was a recipe for chaos. The Combides, they often used incredibly brutal tactics.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
The whole thing backfired spectacularly. The government eventually had to disband them.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
From Marx himself, like way back in 1850. When he was addressing the union of communists.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Oh, yeah. The seeds of distrust and resentment had been sown.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And that's precisely the chilling point Maximoff is driving at.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
This urge to control and punish.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
He saw it as the only way to achieve true revolution.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
They did. Yeah. Maximoff even mentions that in the chapter.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, that's one of the things that makes Maximoff's argument so compelling.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
In fact, he uses them to strengthen his case.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, Maximoff suggests that Lenin was a very shrewd politician.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
He knew that openly advocating for terror would have been a really bad look.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
People were yearning for peace and justice.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Right. So Maximoff is arguing that it was all part of a deliberate strategy.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But with the intention of ditching those ideals once in control.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And to back this up, Maximoff points to the gradual escalation of repression and violence that followed the Bolshevik takeover.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Oh, there were definitely internal debates and disagreements.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Not at all. Maximoff even quotes Lenin lashing out at fellow Bolsheviks who questioned his methods.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Called them soft, sentimental.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And Maximoff argues that this intolerance, this inability to brook any opposition, was a key factor in the Bolshevik state's rapid slide into tyranny.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Yeah, that one's a real head scratcher.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, Maximoff is arguing that just as ancient slaveholders could practice a form of democracy amongst themselves.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Exactly. So, too, could the Bolsheviks claim to be establishing a proletarian democracy.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Basically saying that this dictatorship of the proletariat was really just a dictatorship in disguise.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
That's the heart of Maximoff's argument. And he supports it by showing how this system inevitably turned almost everyone into an adversary.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
They ended up being victims of the system.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's like, whoa, hold on a sec.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Why did Lenin cling to it so fiercely?
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Maximoff doesn't really delve into the psychology of Lenin.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But he does suggest that this rhetoric of proletarian dictatorship served a crucial ideological function.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
To claim that they were acting on behalf of the working class.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's a brilliant strategy in a way, but also incredibly cynical.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
By wrapping themselves in the language of revolution and liberation.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
With a ruthlessness that shocked even some of their own supporters.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Using language to manipulate and control people just as effectively as they used the terror by starvation.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
That's the power of good history.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
He suggests that this tendency towards authoritarianism wasn't just a product of Lenin's personality.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
He sees it as a fundamental flaw in the very ideology of Marxism itself.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
I don't think he'd go that far.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
That's a debate for another time.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But Maximoff certainly raises some provocative questions.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, this quote really reveals a major tension brewing within socialist thought at the time.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And the seductive allure of absolute power.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
We've covered a lot of ground.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Our brains have definitely gotten a workout today.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Well, no, there's more to come.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
And the chilling legacy he left behind.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Like how those theories of Marx and Engels.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
The brutal reality of that early Bolshevik state.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
You had groups like the Communards who were all about that like grassroots democracy, that decentralized vision.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Oh, we've got more to uncover.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Right. He wants us to see the bigger picture.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Exactly. He's arguing that this descent into authoritarianism.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It was a flaw in the system itself.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It is. But he backs it up by looking at the long term consequences.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
That obsession with centralized control.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Created a culture of fear and suspicion that poisoned Soviet society for decades.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Absolutely. Maximoff gives all these historical examples.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
Created a climate where anyone could be accused of being an enemy of the state.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It was a system that rewarded informers and encouraged people to turn on each other.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
That's the whole point Maximoff is trying to get across.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
But Marx and Engels and later Lenin, they believed that a powerful centralized state.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It ended up devouring not only its enemies.
Class with Mason
Chapter II: Terroristic Nature of the Marxist States
It's a provocative argument for sure.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
All right, so today we're going to dive into some really fascinating stuff about Lenin.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. But I think there are some important takeaways that still resonate.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Well, first, I think it's a stark reminder that power is seductive.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And even those who claim to fight for freedom and equality can be corrupted by it.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Second, it really highlights the danger of utopian thinking. This belief that you can create a perfect society through force or ideology. And often, you know, at the expense of individual rights and freedoms.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, it's one of the core texts. And so for Maximo, for revolutionary himself to kind of label it that way is is quite a statement.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
That's a good point. It's a cautionary tale about the allure of power.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And the importance of those checks and balances, no matter what your political system is.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, I think the final takeaway and maybe the most crucial is that it underscores the importance of critical thinking, of questioning those in power, of holding them accountable to their promises.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Regardless of how inspiring their rhetoric might be.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
That's right. We can't just take things at face value.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Especially in times of big change and upheaval.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, we have to evaluate their actions, their motivations, and whether those actions actually line up with their values.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Absolutely. And that's something that Maximoff himself emphasizes. His work isn't just a historical account. It's really a call to action, an invitation to engage with history, not as passive observers, but as active participants in shaping the world we want to live in.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
I think we'll wrap up this deep dive into Lenin's rise to power.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
I think that's a good place to stop.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. We hope you found it fascinating and thought provoking.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Well, he points to some of the specific demands that are outlined in the manifesto and how he believes that that lays the groundwork for an authoritarian system. OK, so he talks about. the demand for a dictatorship of the proletariat, the call for absolute centralization, and the formation of industrial armies, particularly in agriculture. So this vision of a highly controlled society where
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
As always, we encourage you to continue exploring these ideas.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Questioning those assumptions.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And diving deep into the complexities of history.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
individual liberties take a backseat to the needs of the state is what he sees as ultimately leading down that path toward what another prominent socialist figure at the time, Karl Kautsky, called state slavery.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
State slavery. That is a chilling phrase.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. It makes you think about, you know, I don't know if if our listeners have ever considered You know, what happens when an ideology, no matter how well intentions goes to its extreme. Right. It goes to its logical conclusion.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It can have some really scary consequences.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And I think it's worth noting that this isn't just Maximoff's opinion. You know, this concern about state slavery was shared by others within the socialist movement who were seeing where things were headed in Russia.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So we have this backdrop of Russia's inherent humanism. And this revolutionary movement with all this energy behind it and this figure Lenin kind of coming to the forefront.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
But here's where things get really interesting. According to Maximoff, Lenin actually comes to power by temporarily distancing himself from those very ideas in the Communist Manifesto. It's almost like he knew that those ideas wouldn't resonate with a population that was yearning for freedom.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Maximoff argues that, you know, Lenin was a very shrewd and in some ways Machiavellian political player. He understood the power of appealing to people's desires. And so instead of focusing on the more authoritarian aspects of the Communist Manifesto, he cleverly utilized ideas from another one of Marx's pamphlets, The Civil War in France.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So kind of a strategic repositioning.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
OK, so what was so different about the civil war in France? Why would that be more appealing to the people in Russia at the time?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Well, the civil war in France advocated for things like decentralized power, individual liberties, a government that was accountable to the people. You know, this is a much more appealing message for a population that had just overthrown a czar.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So it was more in line with their lived experience.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, absolutely. And it was a way for Lenin to kind of, you know, get the trust of the masses.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So it was a way to build a following to say, hey, look, what I'm offering is really what you want.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Exactly. And, you know, Maximoff even quotes Lenin later on, kind of admitting to this tactic in 1922.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He essentially says, you know, look, we had to start somewhere. We had to make promises. We had to kind of paint a picture of a future that people would believe in. We couldn't have launched the revolution any other way.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Specifically, chapter one, which is all about Lenin's road to power.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So he's acknowledging that, you know, sometimes you got to you got to, you know, kind of fudge the truth a little bit.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Right. We often forget that revolutions are political movements.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
They require strategy. They require persuasion.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And sometimes a little bit of, you know, we'll we'll call it deception.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. And think about the context. Right. Russia's in the middle of World War One. There's economic instability. Right. There's food shortages.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
There's growing discontent with how things are.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And then this guy comes along and he's charismatic.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And he's offering a brighter future. He's saying, look, I got freedom. I got quality. I got true democracy.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's no wonder people started to follow him.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And it is a fascinating road. It is. You know, one of the things that that Maximoff points out is that, you know, the Russian Revolution actually started as a bloodless revolution.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He was tapping into a deep well of discontent. Right. And offering a seemingly viable path forward.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And Maximoff goes into detail about the specific promises that Lenin made.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Okay. Let's hear some of those promises.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
What did he offer that was so compelling?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Well, first and foremost, he promised a republic.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Of workers, peasants and farm laborers with power vested in local Soviets.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So a highly decentralized system where communities would have control over their own affairs.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So really putting the power in the hands of the people.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He also promised to abolish the standing army and police. Wow. To be replaced by an armed populace.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So radical shift in power dynamics there.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's like this grassroots approach to defense and security.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So it's not top down. It's really coming from the ground up. That's right. OK. What else?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He also pledged to eliminate the bureaucracy and privileged officialdom that had plagued the czarist regime.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And in their place, there would be elected and importantly, recallable delegates.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Recallable. So if you don't like how someone's doing, you just get rid of them.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Real accountability built into the system.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
I could see why people would be drawn to that.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Especially after living under a czar where your voice didn't matter.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yes, a really important one. He guaranteed freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, freedom of demonstration.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So the cornerstones of a free society.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Where dissents actually encouraged. So he's painting this picture of truly democratic Russia with power distributed amongst the people.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. And you think about that.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
A government that's accountable and individual liberties protected. Yeah. I mean, compared to what they were living under, this sounds pretty good.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It does. And those promises resonated deeply with the Russian people. They were ready for change. And Lenin seemed to be offering a path toward a more just and equitable society. But as we know, the reality of his rule turned out to be quite different.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's kind of counterintuitive to how we think about this.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And that's what we're going to explore in the rest of this deep dive.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
We're going to unpack the stark contrast between These inspiring promises and the sometimes harsh realities of Lenin's post-revolution actions.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, it's a fascinating story of ambition ideology, the complexities of power.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's amazing how quickly those promises unravel.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Usually it's associated with a lot of violence and bloodshed.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
You know, those grand pronouncements of freedom and democracy.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's almost like a bait and switch, isn't it?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It really is. You go from this hopeful rhetoric to some pretty harsh realities. Yeah. And one of the most glaring examples that Maximoff points out is the death penalty.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Here's Lenin before the revolution railing against capital punishment.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Using it as a tool to criticize the provisional government. Right. And then almost immediately after seizing power.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. But but the the initial kind of overthrow, if you will, was it was actually bloodless. And, you know, when you think about Russia as a country, historically, there's a lot of humanism. You know, in the literature and absolutely in the legal system leading up to the revolution, you know, really focused on on human rights and compassion and all that.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Maximoff actually describes this moment where Lenin learns that the death penalty has been abolished and he is furious. Really? Yeah. It's this complete 180.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And it really reveals, I think, something about his underlying views on on violence and the use of state power.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It makes you wonder what was going through his mind.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
You know, like we're in a chaotic situation. We need to restore order. Right. Or was it something more calculated, more in line with those authoritarian tendencies that Maximoff sees in political Marxism?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. I think that's the question, isn't it? And Maximoff suggests that it wasn't simply a matter of circumstance. You know, he argues that Lenin, despite his rhetoric, always saw terror as a kind of essential tool for building the kind of state he envisioned.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So it wasn't just about restoring order. It was about consolidating control, eliminating any potential threats.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And that brings us to another broken promise, the coalition's socialist government.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Before the revolution, Lenin talks about different socialist parties working together, finding common ground, wielding a government that represents a broad spectrum of views.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. But then when he has the chance to actually form such a government.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He does. And that rejection of the coalition is I think a pivotal moment.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It speaks volumes about Lenin's real intentions. Yeah. He had the opportunity to create a more inclusive system. Right. A more collaborative system. But he chose dictatorship over cooperation.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, he wanted absolute control.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It seems clear that that's what he wanted, and he wasn't willing to share power with anyone who might challenge his vision.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Makes you wonder if that decision actually prolonged the Civil War.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
You know, pitting socialist against socialist, further dividing an already incredibly fractured country.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, that's a point that Maximoff raises as well.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He suggests that Lenin's rejection of the coalition wasn't just about consolidating power within the government, but it was also a strategic move to eliminate his political rivals.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Wow. So he's thinking long game? Using the revolution as a springboard to establish this totalitarian state.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. And it kind of goes back to those ideas in the Communist Manifesto. You know, despite his earlier pronouncements, it seems like that's the direction he was always headed in.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
You know, this idea that he was playing this long game.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
That's exactly what Maximoff argues.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He sees those early promises of freedom and decentralization as a deliberate deception, a tactic designed to mask Lenin's true intentions.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And the evidence really does point in that direction when you look at how those promises unraveled once he was in power.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So let's go back to those specific promises and kind of see how they played out in reality.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
We talked about the death penalty. We talked about the rejection of the coalition government.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
What are some other examples of this disconnect between rhetoric and action?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Let's take the promise of empowering local Soviets. Lenin talked about this decentralized system where communities would have genuine autonomy, you know, power flowing from the bottom up.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So it's really interesting how a movement that seems to start with these humanist ideals ends up giving rise to, you know, we often associate with with Lenin, which is this brutal authoritarian regime.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
But what happened in practice was quite different.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He very quickly moved to undermine the power of the Central Executive Committee of the Soviets.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Concentrating more and more power in his own hands and within the Bolshevik Party.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
His rise to power. And specifically, we're going to be looking at the contrast between what he was promising before the revolution and kind of what happened afterward, the actions that were taken. Yeah. And our main source for this is... is going to be Gregory Maximoff's guillotine at work.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It was a highly centralized and increasingly authoritarian regime.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So much for all power to the Soviets.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It seems like it was more like all power to Lenin and the Bolsheviks.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
What about his pledge to abolish the standing army and police?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Not at all. In fact, one of the first things Lenin did was to create a new, very powerful centralized military force, the Red Army.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Which he used ruthlessly to crush any opposition. Wow. Both from within and outside the Bolshevik party.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So instead of empowering the people.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
He created a tool of state control.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
A way to enforce his will and suppress any dissent.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And what about those guaranteed freedoms of the press assembly demonstration?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Those core tenets. of a free and open society that he promised to uphold?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Those were very quickly suppressed.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Independent newspapers were shut down. Opposition groups were outlawed. And any form of dissent was met with brutal repression.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's a far cry from the democratic ideals he espoused before the revolution.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's a pretty devastating contrast, wouldn't you say?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. I mean, he promised freedom.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
But he delivered oppression. Yeah. He promised democracy, but he delivered dictatorship.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And what's so tragic about it is that, you know, Maximoff points out that the Russian people at their core really did have this deep belief in humanism and compassion. Right. They were yearning for a better world, for a more just society.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
And Lenin was able to exploit that yearning.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. He used their hope and their idealism to build a system based on fear and control.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, it's a real cautionary tale.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's a reminder that revolutions, even those with the most noble intentions, can easily go astray when those in power become intoxicated by their own authority and begin to prioritize control over freedom.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Makes you wonder if there's something inherent in the dynamics of power that just leads to this kind of corruption, regardless of the ideology.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's a question that's haunted revolutionaries and thinkers for centuries.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. Can you really achieve a just and equitable society through force and coercion? Do those methods inevitably undermine the very ideals that they claim to uphold?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. How do we how do we get from A to B?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's something to think about, and it's something that we'll continue to grapple with as we delve deeper into Maximoff's analysis and explore the long-term consequences of Lenin's choices.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
You know, it's like there's this inherent tension between these lofty ideals and the greedy reality of actually getting power and then holding on to it.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
That is the question. And that's where Maximoff's analysis of Lenin's political Marxism comes in. And Maximoff, you know, makes a pretty bold claim. He actually calls the Communist Manifesto a reactionary document.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
You start with these brand visions, but then you've got to make compromises. You've got to make these tough choices.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
You've got to get your hands dirty.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, and all of a sudden you find yourself drifting away from those goals.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Right. And and what's really interesting is that Lenin himself seemed to recognize this tension. You know, Maximoff quotes a passage where Lenin talks about the necessity of a strong centralized government, especially once the state becomes, you know, in his words, proletarian.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So he's saying that even after the workers have control, they still need a strong state.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Right, a strong centralized state.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
That seems to contradict everything he was talking about before the revolution.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It does seem contradictory, and that's precisely what Maximoff is getting at. He argues that Lenin's ultimate goal wasn't truly about liberating the working class or creating a genuinely equitable society. It was about establishing a new form of state power, one that was controlled by the Bolsheviks. Right. And used to shape society according to their ideology.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So in a way, it wasn't really freedom for all.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah, that's a good way to put it. And this is where, you know, that concept of political Marxism that we talked about before really comes back into focus. Maximoff sees this ideology as inherently authoritarian, as fixated on, you know, capturing and wielding state power as the primary means of achieving its ends.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So almost like the ends justify the means.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Yeah. And even if it means, you know, compromising those initial promises of freedom and individual liberty.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
It's like the revolution was just a way to get to that ultimate goal of having the party elite in control.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
That's right. And it really challenges us to to kind of think critically.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
About how these revolutionary movements evolve. You know, we often romanticize these things. Oh, yeah. You know, as these spontaneous uprisings of the people are all coming together. Right. But Maximoff is suggesting that they can also be very carefully orchestrated by individuals.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
With very specific agendas, agendas that might not actually align with the desires of the people that they claim to represent.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
Wow. That is bold because it's kind of the foundation of communist ideology, isn't it?
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
So what does this all mean for us today? I mean, this all happened a long time ago.
Class with Mason
Chapter 1: Lenin's Road to Power by Gregory Maximoff
The world is a very different place.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
All right. So you want to look into how to build socialism from below. And you've given us a really interesting mix of stuff to dig into here.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's about cultivating those values of cooperation, solidarity, compassion, even in our everyday interactions.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Yeah, because at the end of the day, the world we create starts with the choices we make each day.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
How we treat each other, how we consume, how we engage with our community.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So as we wrap up this deep dive, I want to leave you, our listener, with this question.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
If you were to start building socialism from below in your own community, what would your first step be?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And who knows, your step might inspire others to follow, creating a ripple that could change the world.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's a really interesting concept. Yeah. He's saying that every time we engage in activity purely for the love of it, for the joy of creating something or helping someone. Yeah. We're kind of subtly pushing back against that logic of capitalism.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
You're not doing it for some external reward. Right. You're doing it for the intrinsic satisfaction of the activity itself.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And that's like a powerful act of defiance. Yeah. In a world that's increasingly dominated by market forces.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Exactly. And your sources offer some really good concrete examples of how this is already happening. Things like worker cooperatives, community land trusts.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's like they're creating these pockets of socialism.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
These little glimpses of what a different kind of society could look like.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. So if we're talking about building socialism from below, it can't just be about economics.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So groups like Cooperation Jackson, which specifically focuses on empowering black working class communities. They're saying that building socialism from below needs to start by addressing those systemic inequalities.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's not just about building a better future. It's about reckoning with the past and addressing the injustices that continue to shape our present.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So how do they actually go about doing this? Well, what are some of the strategies they use?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's not about just waiting for some big revolution. Right. You know, it's like, what can we do right now? Yeah. Right where we are.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's about changing the way we do things, changing the way we relate to each other.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. Direct democracy from ancient Greece to modern day movements. There's this idea of people coming together face to face to make decisions collectively without relying on representatives.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
But let's be real. Isn't that incredibly challenging to implement on a large scale?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Especially in today's complex societies. Sure. How do you get millions of people to participate in every single decision?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So things like neighborhood assemblies, worker councils, community based decision making processes. Exactly.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's not about throwing out everything and starting from scratch. Right. It's about finding ways to introduce these more democratic practices into our existing structures and gradually expand their reach.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
That's been nagging at me too. It seems like a lot of the examples we've been talking about are very localized. But how do we scale that up to create systemic change?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK, so less about top down control, more about people power.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
I mean, are we talking about getting rid of wages altogether?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's like planting the seeds of a new economy right within the old one.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And that reminds me we are about to dive into some real world examples. Yes. Of these cracks in capitalism.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Before we pause. Mm hmm. Your source mentioned things like community gardens, time banks, even open source technology and the sharing economy.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK, so let's break these down a little bit. OK. Community gardens. I get that.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
You know, growing your own food, being sustainable, building community.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It fits right in with this whole from below idea.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Like a mini socialist society in action. Yeah. Working together, sharing the rewards.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK. So it's basically the idea that the way we organize and make decisions like within our movements should reflect the kind of society we actually want to create.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
With climate change and all the uncertainty in the world.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So instead of paying someone to fix my leaky faucet.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
I could trade them like an hour of my questionable guitar skill.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's a way of recognizing those essential jobs that often don't get paid enough.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Like the care work that women usually end up doing.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Okay. This is all starting to sound pretty utopian. I mean, could it really work on a large scale?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
OK, let's tackle the tricky one. Open source tech and the sharing economy.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
I mean, companies like Uber and Airbnb. Right. They're all about profit.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So a community owned ride sharing platform that's nonprofit is totally different from a corporation like Uber that's exploiting its workers and driving inequality.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Making technology free and modifiable. So communities can build their own platforms instead of relying on corporations.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's about creating a more decentralized democratic society.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Where people have more control over their own lives.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's a shift from this like me first mentality to one of cooperation and understanding that we're all connected.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
It's like that quote from The Ecology of Freedom.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
The most distant journey begins with a single step.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Precisely. It's about building the world we want to see one step at a time. And it's not just about formal organizations. It's about fostering a culture of mutual aid, cooperation, respect in all aspects of our lives.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
We've got some theory. We've got some real world examples.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Before we get lost in these big ideas, let's make sure we've got the key takeaways down.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
We talk about how even doing things we love outside of the market can be a form of resistance. And we looked at real world examples like community gardens, time banks, open source tech.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. We've talked about big ideas, but what are the actual steps you can take starting today? I think that's what our listener really wants to know. OK, so we've explored all these inspiring ideas.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
But like, I think our listeners ready for some action.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
What can they actually do to start building socialism from below?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's about finding those little cracks in the system.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
And seeing how you can fill them with something better.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
You know, one of your sources, Jackson Rising Redux, really stressed the power of connecting with like-minded people. It's about finding those individuals and groups who are already working towards these goals.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
So it's not about blindly supporting any politician who calls himself a socialist.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Are they truly working to empower communities and redistribute power?
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Right. It's about finding ways to influence policy at the local level, pushing for things that create space for these alternative systems to thrive.
Class with Mason
How to Build Socialism from Below
Exactly. It's about using whatever tools you have to create a more fertile ground for socialism from below to take root.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Get ready to dive deep into a topic most people think they know, but really probably don't.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And then this subsequent descent into terror under the Bolsheviks.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's essential to remember that this legacy of terror continues to haunt Russia to this day.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Run deep, shaping the country's political culture and their relationship with the world.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's a sobering reminder of the dangers of unchecked power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. As we move into the final part of this deep dive.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
The world today. Man, this has been quite a journey.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
You know, from Lenin's promises of freedom to the brutal realities of his rule.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And then this horrifying expansion of terror under Stalin.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It really is. And I think it's clear, you know, that the seeds of tyranny were sown very early on.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. It's a stark reminder that revolutions, even those launched with the noblest intentions, can be corrupted by power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So as we wrap up this deep dive, it's important to kind of shift our focus from the past to the present.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. Because understanding how terror takes root, how it spreads, how it infects even the most idealistic movements, that's essential to preventing its recurrence.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So, I mean, one of the, I guess, the most important lessons here is this danger of unchecked power, right?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. We're going to go way beyond, you know, the storming of the Winter Palace.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
We need to look at Lenin. Right. Lenin. Yeah. His ideology, his approach to revolution. Because initially he was presenting himself as this champion of democracy and freedom.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. Both Lenin and Stalin were able to consolidate their authority because there were no effective checks and balances in place.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Even in the context of, you know, a revolution that's supposed to be championing the rights of the working class.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's right. That's right. And while it's impossible to create perfect systems of governance, I think we can and must advocate for structures that promote transparency, accountability, and the rule of law.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So it's about supporting the institutions that uphold these values.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Like a willingness to recognize those warning signs.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. The warning signs of authoritarianism. Right. And a willingness to speak out against injustice.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's got to be tough, you know, sometimes to do that.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And we've seen how easily fear can take hold.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So I think courage is a crucial antidote. Yes. To that fear.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And courage isn't always about, you know. Right. Grand gestures of defiance. Right. Yeah. It's about the everyday choices we make. OK. It's about being willing to question authority. Yeah. To challenge the status quo, to speak truth to power, even in small ways.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And that means being critical of all forms of power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's right. We have to be willing to challenge our own assumptions.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. And listen to perspectives that are different.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's easy to fall into that trap of thinking that our side is inherently good and their side is inherently bad.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, he does. He demonstrates very powerfully how the lines between good and evil, between liberator and oppressor, can be blurred very easily when power goes unchecked.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's important to remember that, you know, Lenin truly believed he was acting in the best interests.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But his unwavering conviction. Right. His refusal to tolerate any dissent. Right. Ultimately led him down this path of just unimaginable brutality.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it's this cautionary tale about, you know, the seductive nature of power and the dangers of ideological rigidity.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's not just about protecting individual rights. Right. It's about ensuring that we can hold power accountable and that we can challenge dangerous ideologies before they take root and metastasize.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Which is kind of wild. Like what was that? Did he have a change of heart?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And we see this throughout history and even in the world today. Right. Governments, powerful interests.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Trying to control the narrative, to suppress dissent, to manipulate public opinion.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, I mean, not really a change of heart when he learned that the provisional government had abolished the death penalty. He was furious. Really? Yeah. As Trotsky recounts in his memoirs, Lenin believed that executions were an indispensable tool for consolidating power and maintaining order.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. And it's scary to think that with the rise of social media, it's easier than ever to spread propaganda and disinformation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And these are incredibly powerful tools for communication. But they can also be used for manipulation and control.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. So I think media literacy is more important now than ever before.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
We really got to be able to critically evaluate the information we consume.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's that old saying, don't believe everything you read on the Internet.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But these days, it's not just the Internet. It's everywhere. It's everywhere, you know. We're bombarded with information from all sides and we have to sift through the noise.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's much easier to just passively consume information.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
whatever's in front of us to accept the dominant narrative or question.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But this deep dive has shown us that kind of apathy and complacency can have dangerous consequences. So what's the antidote to this apathy?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, I think for one, we can support organizations that are fighting for human rights and democratic values. We can educate ourselves about the issues.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Engage in thoughtful discussions. Hold our elected officials accountable.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah, and I think it's important to remember that even individual actions can make a difference.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes, they can. Speaking up against injustice, challenging harmful narratives, having difficult conversations with friends and family members. These are all acts of courage.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah, and you never know they might have this ripple effect.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And I think it's also important to never underestimate the power of storytelling. Sharing these stories of those who have suffered under tyranny, fought for freedom, I think can connect with this history on a human level.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
By continuing to fight for a more just and equitable world.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
This book, The Guillotine at Work, it's not just a chronicle of terror. It's also this testament to the resilience of the human spirit.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it reminds us that even in the darkest of times, there is always hope.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Let's keep this conversation going. Yeah, let's keep it going. Let's learn from the past, stay engaged in the present, and work together to create a future where all forms of tyranny, both the wet and the dry guillotine, are relegated to the history books.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, thank you for joining us on this deep dive into the Russian revelation. Yes. We hope it's inspired you to think critically about the world around you.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And to really embrace your own role in shaping a more just and equitable future.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Exact one. Really get down into the weeds of a darker, more complex story of how these revolutionary ideals get twisted into these like instruments of oppression.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Not at all. Maximoff cites official Bolshevik sources that reveal a horrifying number of executions under Lenin's rule.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Even conservative estimates are in the hundreds of thousands.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And he justified this bloodshed in the name of discipline and suppressing enemies.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Mm-hmm. Precisely. Lenin was convinced of his own infallibility. Any opposition to the Bolshevik Party line, any deviation from his vision was a threat to the revolution itself.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes, to root out and eliminate enemies of the people. That's what they call them, enemies of the people.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So who were the enemies of the people at first? I guess it was the bourgeoisie, right? The wealthy elite.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Which I guess is somewhat understandable given the time.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah, but it quickly expanded as Maximoff documents.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it wasn't just the bourgeoisie anymore. It was political opponents like the Mensheviks.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. So anyone who questioned his authority at all, regardless of their political affiliation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Who advocated for individual liberty and decentralized power. Right. Lenin hated that. Yeah. He saw that as a threat to his vision of a centralized authoritarian state.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And what's often overlooked is that it wasn't just like one event.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Just resisting the government's grain requisitions.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. They saw it as a threat to the Bolsheviks control over food distribution, which was essential for them to maintain power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. And so they were demonized, dehumanized, crushed. And Max Moff really details the brutality.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Employed to silence any dissent. Nope. Shooting hostages.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But it was a series of power struggles and shifts in ideology, each more brutal than the last.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
I mean, this was this was the reality, the so-called dictatorship of the proletariat.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And then there's this whole other dimension of terror.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. That Maximoff refers to as this dry guillotine.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So this is where we see Lennon's true genius. Yes. for control, right? The Dry Guillotine wasn't about brute force. It was about a more insidious form of oppression. The control of minds through fear and manipulation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it's like something out of a dystopian novel or something.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It does, doesn't it? But this was the reality in Russia under Lenin. Really? Think about it this way. The wet guillotine, right? Yeah. Eliminated physical opponents. Yeah. But the dry guillotine sought to eliminate opposition itself by controlling what people could think.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And that's where our source material comes in for this deep dive at work. Yeah. 20 years of terror in Russia.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, one of the primary tools was censorship. Independent media was shut down. Anything deemed harmful was destroyed. Libraries were purged of anything that didn't align with the Bolshevik ideology.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. So they were really trying to control the flow of information?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Absolutely. They wanted to create a monopoly on truth.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. They encouraged people to inform on each other, which created an atmosphere of suspicion and paranoia where even family members couldn't trust one another.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it's like turning... Turning people against each other. Yeah.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. And they also used propaganda extensively, right?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. Propaganda was key. It was a weapon in their arsenal to glorify Lenin, to demonize his opponents and create this cult of personality around him. Wow. It was everywhere in schools, workplaces, art, literature, shaping people's perceptions and molding their thoughts.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it's like they were infiltrating every aspect of life. They were. You couldn't escape it.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's like they wanted to control not just your actions. That's right. But your mind.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And Maximoff wasn't just like some historian, you know, kind of watching this all from afar.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's a good way to put it. They aim to create a society where obedience wasn't just enforced, but internalized.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So even if you disagreed with the regime, you'd be too afraid to speak out.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wow. So this dry guillotine was in a way even more effective than the wet guillotine.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. Way more effective. Because it created this self-perpetuating cycle of fear and self-censorship.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
You didn't need the Checo to come knocking at your door. You were already censoring yourself.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. The Russian Revolution, but not the one you might see in like a textbook or something.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And paranoia. But wasn't this terror just confined to like those outside the party?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, that's where things get even more disturbing.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Because Lenin wasn't content with just silencing dissent outside the party. Right. He was just as ruthless in purging anyone who dared to question his authority.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Right. Maximoff shows how Lenin systematically sidelined, expelled or exiled prominent figures like Tomsky and Miasnikov, who had the audacity to disagree with him.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Living through this whole thing, you know, witnessing firsthand how the Bolsheviks led by Lenin transformed this promise of liberation into a reign of terror.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So it wasn't just about eliminating external enemies.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. Crushing any potential challenge to that power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. Wow. And this is important to remember because this internal purge, this atmosphere of suspicion and fear within the party.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Okay. And that's where we're going to pick up in part two of this deep dive.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
We'll examine how Stalin took this blueprint that Lenin laid out and amplified it to a horrifying scale.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And how the terror became like this defining feature of Soviet life.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. Welcome back. As we kind of dig deeper into Maximoff's book, you really see how Stalin's reign of terror, it wasn't like a sudden departure from Lenin, you know, it was more of a continuation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Down a dark path, exactly. And this period between Lenin's death in 1924 and Stalin's complete consolidation of power is really crucial, I think, to understanding how it evolved.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. You know, I would assume that with Lannan gone, there might have been some sort of like reprieve.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
No, not even close. In fact, you could argue that the dry guillotine, the system of psychological manipulation, social control that we talked about, it became even more refined and systematic during this time. Wow. Why is that? Well, I mean, remember, Russia is in a state of immense turmoil after the Civil War. Right. The economy's in shambles. There's widespread famine.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. And his account is so striking because he uses official Bolshevik documents and eyewitness accounts to weave a narrative that goes beyond, you know, just the physical execution.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
People are grappling with the uncertainty of a new political order.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, he was a master manipulator. He positioned himself as the only one strong enough to restore order. The only one capable of defending the revolution from its enemies.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And just like under Lenin, These enemies seem to like multiply at an alarming rate.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, yeah. It was a chilling echo of what we saw before.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Anyone who deviated even slightly from the party line was suspect.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
But Stalin took it a step further. Right. He wasn't content with just silencing dissent. Right. He wanted to control people's very thoughts.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's terrifying. Like, how do you do that? What were the tools?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, censorship became even more pervasive and ruthless. Independent media was completely eradicated. Wow. Any publications deemed even remotely critical were destroyed. Libraries were purged of anything that didn't align with the official ideology.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
They were. They understood the power of information and they were determined to monopolize it.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
And it went beyond just controlling information. Right. They actively shaped people's worldview through propaganda.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's like if the party said the sky was green, you better agree.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Very dire. This is where the Chica, now renamed the OGPU, became Stalin's primary instrument of terror. They carried out mass arrests, deportations, and executions with a chilling efficiency.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Oh, no, no, no. This wasn't random violence. This was calculated.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
You know, he went after specific groups. Okay. Peasants who resisted collectivization, religious leaders who challenged his authority, intellectuals who dared to think independently, and even members of the Communist Party itself.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
As opposed to the wet guillotine. Right. Wow. This is the systematic crushing of dissent through exile, censorship and psychological manipulation.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Wait, party members too? I thought they were supposed to be like the most loyal supporters of the regime.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Stalin was paranoid to the core. Yeah. He saw enemies everywhere.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Anyone who showed even a hint of independence. Right. Anyone who might potentially challenge his authority had to be eliminated.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Where millions were arrested, executed, sent to labor camps.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
The Great Purge was the terrifying apex of Stalin's reign of terror.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's hard to believe that this all happened under the banner of socialism.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Like, how could something that started with such noble intentions go so wrong?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
That's the question that haunts Maximoff throughout his book. He argues that the seeds of this terror were present in the very ideology of Bolshevism, you know, in its belief in the absolute power of the state and the need to crush all opposition.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
In a way, Stalin was just taking Lenin's ideas to their logical conclusion.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
In a sense, yes. But you also have to remember that Stalin was a ruthlessly ambitious and cunning individual who exploited those ideas to serve his own lust for power.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
So was there any like organized opposition to Stalin? I mean, were there any like groups or individuals who dared to resist?
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
There were there were pockets of resistance, but they were brutally and swiftly suppressed. Right. Maximoff highlights how even within the Communist Party, there were those who bravely spoke out against the excesses of the regime.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Trotsky. Yeah. He vehemently opposed Stalin's rise to power. Right. And criticized the authoritarian direction the Soviet Union was taking.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It's fascinating. This this contrast between the initial February revolution, which was relatively bloodless.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Well, he was exiled from the Soviet Union. And then in 1940, he was assassinated.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yeah. It's like this system where fear was the only acceptable emotion.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
Yes. And that fear extended far beyond the borders of the Soviet Union. The purges and show trials, they sent shockwaves through the international communist movement. A lot of people were disillusioned, questioning the very ideals they once believed in.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
I can't even imagine like the level of paranoia and distrust.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It did. Maximoff describes the society where everyone was walking on eggshells, constantly afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
By a neighbor, a colleague. Right. A family member even.
Class with Mason
Why Marxism is a False Promise!
It was a world where trust had been completely eroded.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Ever feel like you've read the same self-help book a dozen times? Just a bunch of recycled platitudes.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Like what? Just give us an example.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Which makes me think about another one of his rules, the one about judging others. I always find that to be such a tricky subject because it's so easy to slip into judgment, even when we're trying not to.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So what's Carter's advice on how to approach those judgments with more compassion and understanding?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about extending grace to others, recognizing that we all have our own unique struggles and challenges.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Hmm. That's an interesting way to put it. So it's about trying to see the world through their eyes, to understand the context of their experiences before we pass judgment.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about recognizing that our way isn't the only way and that diversity of thought and experience is what makes life so rich and interesting.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, interesting. What's his take on the whole social media phenomena?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about using those platforms to build bridges rather than walls to foster understanding rather than division.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
That's a really beautiful way to look at it. It's about using technology to cultivate compassion and connection, to create a sense of community in a world that can often feel isolating.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about choosing to move forward without being defined by the past or the actions of others.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, wow. That's powerful. It's a reminder to approach those relationships with tenderness and understanding, especially as our loved ones enter their twilight years.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about honoring the wisdom and experience they've accumulated over a lifetime while also extending grace and patience as they navigate the challenges of aging.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
He's inviting us to engage in that ongoing conversation about what it means to be human with all its complexities and contradictions.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
On that note, to our amazing listeners, we'd love to hear your thoughts. Which of Carter's rules resonated most with you? How are you putting these ideas into practice in your own lives? Keep those conversations going, keep diving deep, and we'll be back next time with another thought-provoking episode. Until then, be well.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
That's powerful. It's not about condoning what happened, but about reclaiming your own emotional well-being.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Okay. I'm intrigued. How does he redefine courage? Isn't it about facing your fears?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's that whole take the log out of your own eye idea, right? It's about acknowledging that we're all works in progress and none of us has it all figured out.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Tell me about it. Nobody actually enjoys being criticized, even if it's meant to be helpful. So what's Carter's advice on handling criticism gracefully? Both when we're on the receiving end and when we need to give it to someone else.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like that Maya Angelou quote, people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel. So even when we're offering constructive criticism, it's got to come from a place of compassion, not judgment.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Whoa, that stops you in your tracks, doesn't it? It makes you realize how much our experiences shape how we see the world.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about bridging that gap between us and them, recognizing that we're all part of this big, messy, beautiful human tapestry.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Talk about an eclectic mix. So who is this Mason Carter? Fill us in.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Interesting. So it's like, don't wait for someone else to point out your flaws. Be proactive about identifying areas where you can improve.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about taking ownership of our own journeys, right? Not relying on others to validate us or tell us who we are.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
OK, humility. I feel like that word gets tossed around a lot these days. But what does it actually mean in this context?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about embracing the possibility that other people might have something valuable to teach us, even if we don't always agree with them.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Love and selflessness. Those sound like pretty lofty ideals. How does he connect those dots?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
And he's not just talking about romantic love here, right? This applies to our relationships with our friends, our families, our communities.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's like that ripple effect. When we act from a place of love and compassion, it creates these positive waves that extend outward, impacting not only the people we interact with directly, but also those we interact with, and so on.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Prefiguration. Now there's a word you don't hear every day. What does that even mean?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Okay, so we've got Gothic lit and socialism. Those don't usually go together, do they? How does that work?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
OK, I'm starting to see how this all fits together. So it's not enough to just talk the talk. We have to walk the walk. Our actions have to be in alignment with the values we espouse.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about being the change. Which makes me think about something else Carter talks about. Anger. Because let's face it, even with the best intentions, we all get angry sometimes as a normal human emotion. But it can also be incredibly destructive if we don't know how to handle it constructively. So what's Carter's take on anger management?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, I know that voice all too well. It's like the master of rationalization, always ready with a reason why it's OK for me to unleash my fury on the world.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about taking a step back, taking a few deep breaths and choosing a different response, even if it's difficult in the moment.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Which is often easier said than done, especially when we feel like we've been wronged.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about breaking free from that cycle of reactivity and choosing a more conscious, compassionate response.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Apologies. Those can be tough. Sometimes it feels like swallowing our pride. What's Carter's take on that?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about recognizing that we've hurt someone, even if it wasn't intentional, and taking responsibility for our part in this situation.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about creating a space where we can be vulnerable with each other, where we can mess up and be forgiven, where we can learn and grow together.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's like he's embracing the duality of human nature.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, education. Always a hot topic. What's Carter's take on the current state of our education system?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about moving away from that rote memorization, that teaching to the test mentality and fostering a love of learning for its own sake.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about empowering them to think critically, to question assumptions, to challenge the status quo.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
The good, the bad, the beautiful, the messy.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
And he uses some pretty interesting examples to illustrate his points, right?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
You've got it. He talks about how those two didn't just regurgitate the teachings of Socrates. They built upon them, challenged them, and ultimately created their own unique philosophies.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Precisely. And he argues that this active engagement with knowledge shouldn't be confined to the classroom. It's something we should all strive for throughout our lives, always seeking new information, new perspectives, new ways of understanding the world around us.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
I love that. And, you know, another area where Carter encourages us to go deeper is in our relationships. He's not a fan of superficiality or pretension. He believes that true connection comes from a place of authenticity and vulnerability. So it's about being genuine, letting our true selves shine through, even with all our quirks and imperfections.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like we're building walls instead of bridges. We're missing out on the beauty of true intimacy, that feeling of being seen and accepted for who we truly are.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Okay, I'm all ears. What's Carter's secret to happiness?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Wow, that's so simple yet so profound. It's about appreciating what we have, who we're with, and the beauty of this present moment, rather than constantly chasing after something more.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about savoring those everyday moments, the laughter, the conversations, the shared experiences that make life so rich and meaningful.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
I can get behind that. So how does this all play out in his 36 Rules for Life?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Well, buckle up, because on today's deep dive, we're talking 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter. And trust me, this is not your average self-improvement guru.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like that old adage, joy shared is joy doubled.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's about recognizing our interconnectedness, that we're all part of this intricate web of life, and that our actions have ripple effects that extend far beyond what we can see or even imagine.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Is it like a how-to manual for embracing our inner darkness?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's like we become these little beacons of hope, lighting the way for others to step into their own authenticity and embrace a more compassionate way of being.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Like his rule about approaching pessimism from a place of wisdom and preparedness, not doom and gloom, right?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about acknowledging the darkness without letting it consume us.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Right. It's about holding on to that spark of hope, that belief in our own resilience and the possibility of a brighter future.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
We're all in this together, stumbling and striving, learning and growing. And sometimes we need a little guidance along the way.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
And to find those unexpected sources of wisdom and inspiration even in the darkest of corners.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
It's about being open to those unexpected sources of wisdom, those little sparks of truth that can ignite our imaginations and inspire us to live more meaningful lives.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
Oh, that's not what I would expect it. How does he spin pessimism in a positive light?
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
So it's like that old saying, hope for the best, prepare for the worst. It's about being realistic without letting fear paralyze us.
Class with Mason
Review on The 36 Rules for Life by Mason Carter
I like that. It's about approaching life with a healthy dose of caution, but not letting that caution turn into cynicism or despair. It's about being prepared for setbacks without losing sight of our goals.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Right. So get ready for a deep dive into a story that's, well, it's heartbreaking for sure, but also hopeful. Yeah, hopeful. We're off to Karachi, a city, you know, bustling with life, but also struggling with poverty and hardship. And we're going to meet Zero and Ziba.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And then there's, well, Ziba develops this gothic look.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It makes their first meeting even more powerful. Here's Zero. He's out, forced to beg by his uncle. And then there's Ziba with this gothic look. And she's, well, she's surprisingly kind to him.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Two people, they understand suffering, they understand hardship, and they find comfort in each other.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Two people who teach us about resilience and those unexpected ways, ways we find connection, even when things are really, really tough.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's something special to see, especially in a place like that. But then there's Zach. He comes into Ziba's life from a totally different world. He just got back from studying abroad, and he brings this sense of hope with him.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And the conversations they have. Wow. They get into everything, life, the universe. It's electric. They challenge each other.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
But their connection, it feels fragile, doesn't it? Yeah. Like a flower trying to grow in the middle of the sidewalk.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And it explodes. Zach's parents, they don't want them together. So they find out about Ziba's past and they use it against them to manipulate Zach.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And it's just heartbreaking. He just crumbles under that pressure. He confronts Ziba, wants answers, but he doesn't even give her a chance to explain.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Yeah. And it reminds us how quickly trust can be broken. Yeah. And it leaves, well, it leaves devastation behind. Ziva's heartbroken, abandoned again, and she retreats back into herself, back into that darkness.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
He buries himself in his studies, using them to avoid his pain. And there's this bench in a park. It becomes his place to be alone, to remember Ziba.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And that's when he meets Faye. She's, well, she's a free spirit. She sees right through his walls, right to the pain he's hiding. And she offers him a lifeline, makes him laugh, encourages him to live again.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Their connection, it's a slow burn. Two people who are hurting, trying to find comfort. But there's hope there, a little light in all that darkness.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's a battle he has to fight on his own. But as he's doing that, his life takes another turn. One that will bring even more heartache and a huge revelation. So Zach's back in England. Trying to move on, you know. But he's got the weight of the past on his shoulders.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Right. And it's like their lives are, well, they're kind of like a tapestry, I guess. Like all these threads killing a much bigger story. About Karachi. Yeah. But we should start with Zero. Just imagine being orphaned at six years old during a terrorist attack.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And it's ironic, isn't it? Because just as he's finding some stability, some success in England, something happens back in Karachi. Something that'll shatter everything.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It is. Remember Zero. He's been trying to survive on the streets just a kid.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
And this is where, well, it gets even darker. Two police officers see Zero and, well, things get out of hand.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's awful. Zero's terrified. He just runs and then he's gunned down. A life lost just like that over a desperate attempt to eat.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's almost too much to bear. But there's this detail, this chilling detail. The officers find something in Zero's hand. A golden locket.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Talk about a cruel twist of fate. And that locket, it becomes a key piece of the puzzle, and it eventually finds its way back to Zach in England. Can you imagine getting that call, finding out a kid you knew, a kid connected to your past, was killed, and he had your picture?
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
He realizes that his actions, his choice to leave, had consequences he never imagined. And if you think it can't get any worse, it does. Zack, he's reeling from Zero's death, and then he finds out Faye, the woman who helped him rebuild his life, she's betrayed him.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Zack's left with so much to deal with. It's a lot, even for a character in a story.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
They really do make you think, long after you've finished with the story. You question yourself, your own biases.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It really makes you wonder about those what ifs. What if Zach had just listened to Ziba?
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
What if he had challenged those expectations, fought for their love?
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
That's right. Zero, Ziba, even Zach. They went through so much, but they never lost their capacity for love, compassion, and hope.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's a powerful message, a reminder that hope exists, that connection is possible, and that the human spirit, well, it can overcome just about anything.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Ooh, Zen. Yeah. Talk about a wolf in sheep's clothing. Right. Forcing Zero into servitude, basically exploiting his own nephew.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
It's bleak. But then we meet Ziba, a young woman whose beauty is almost haunting.
Class with Mason
Review of Chaos of Dementia
Like it's a reflection of all the pain that she's gone through. Similar to Zero, she lost her parents in a senseless act of violence. And her uncle, well, he turned out to be no better than Zen.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That tangible reassurance of her presence. It speaks volumes. It's a grounding moment for Jeremy, a confirmation of something real amidst all the uncertainty.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That question coming from Emily is crucial. It suggests a level of awareness we haven't seen before. As if she understands the nature of his struggles, the very real possibility that he's been questioning her existence.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Yeah. And first kisses, they're always a pivotal moment in any love story, right?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It's a satisfying resolution to a story that's been so fraught with uncertainty.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It leaves us with the possibility that love, even in its most unconventional forms, can be a source of grounding, a way to anchor ourselves in a world that can often feel like a dream.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The author's masterful use of the unreliable narrator. Yes. It's not just a plot device.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It becomes a way to explore the very nature of reality, how our perceptions can be shaped by love, loss, and longing.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It's a catalyst for change. But you mentioned that his entries start later in the story. What does that tell us?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Especially if you appreciate a love story with a healthy dose of mystery and psychological depth.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The author's ability to weave together these intimate diary entries with Emily's ethereal letters creates a truly unique and captivating reading experience.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Until next time, keep exploring, keep questioning, and keep diving deep.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Mm hmm. He's trying to understand something.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Makes sense of events that have maybe shaken his reality.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And speaking of Emily. Is she equally as present throughout the diary entries?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
What a way to build tension and mystery around her character.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
OK, so diary entries, huh? What makes them special enough for a deep dive?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It immediately raises questions about her reliability, about her true nature.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It's wild. And how does Jeremy react to this uncertainty?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
This poetic style. Does it carry over into Emily's letters?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Yeah, that contrast in their voices definitely adds another layer of intrigue.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Is this disconnect something that Jeremy picks up on?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That's brilliant. It's a really good way to create that dramatic tension and keep the reader engaged by subtly shifting the dynamic between the characters.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The author raises doubts about the stability of their relationship.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Wow. Talk about a contrast.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The juxtaposition of their first kiss and this moment of perceived betrayal.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
What a powerful choice by the author.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It highlights the depth of Jeremy's pain, the shattering of his idealized world with Emily.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
This makes me wonder about Jeremy's reliability as a narrator.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Is he truly experiencing these events accurately or is his perception skewed by his intense emotions?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And it's something that we should delve deeper into. But before we do, let's take a moment to consider what we've learned so far.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
These initial diary entries introduce us to a complex relationship, a hidden world, and a protagonist whose grip on reality seems tenuous at best.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Interesting. So they just drop us right into the middle of things.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And the author has cleverly laid the groundwork for a story that promises to challenge our perceptions and make us question the very essence of love and reality.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It's fascinating how the author uses these ordinary settings, you know, to heighten the mystery around Emily. Jeremy describes them having lunch in the cafeteria.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
A place we all associate with, you know, routine and mundane conversations. But through his eyes, it becomes this intimate space, you know, where they're completely detached from everything going on around them.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Their ability to find such profound meaning in those everyday moments, that just adds to Emily's mystique. It's almost as if she possesses a wisdom beyond her years.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The perspective that transcends the mundane.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Yeah. A good hook to capture the reader's attention for sure.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That longing for a static existence, a world without change or progression, that's a curious detail. Could it be foreshadowing Emily's eventual disappearance, as if she's aware of her own transient nature?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And what about these initial entries? What's he revealing?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
that physical touch, that brief reassurance of her presence only amplifies the uncertainty surrounding their relationship. It's as if Jeremy is constantly seeking proof of her existence, grappling with the possibility that she might be slipping away.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That's a turning point in the story. It shatters the illusion of stability in their relationship.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And forces Jeremy to confront the possibility that his perception of Emily might be flawed.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The author does a fantastic job of conveying this gradual fading, you know, through these subtle changes in her behavior.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It creates this haunting atmosphere, the sense that something is amiss without explicitly revealing the true nature of her existence.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That's a powerful metaphor. Contrasting his longing for connection with the natural world's unhindered flow. It highlights his growing sense of powerlessness.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
His inability to control the course of their relationship.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
But also a subtle admission that their journey might not have a clear destination. Exactly. A guaranteed happy ending.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The snowstorm itself is symbolic, wouldn't you say?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
A sudden disruption of normalcy, a foreshadowing of change.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Coupled with the magical quality of their interaction.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It makes you question whether this is a genuine connection or a manifestation of Jeremy's longing.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Exactly. And then there's that scene where Emily vanishes right before his eyes.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Literally disappears into the mist.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Hidden gardens. Symbolically. Very interesting, right? It could be more than just a physical place.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Leaving Jeremy feeling utterly lost and confused.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Absolutely. And from that point on, Jeremy's perception of reality becomes increasingly fragmented. Yes. He describes feeling connected to Emily in a way he hasn't before, as if he can see into her soul. Right. But then he also senses this coldness, a warning as if she's hiding something.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And those fleeting moments of unease.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The subtle changes in Emily's behavior.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
They all build towards that devastating scene where Jeremy sees her with another man. Not just any man, but Warner.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And in the same garden where they shared their first kiss.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And it marks a turning point for Jeremy's mental state.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
His entries become more and more fragmented. His sense of self begins to unravel. He talks about not recognizing himself in the mirror. Wow. Seeing Emily appear and disappear in reflections. It's as if his own identity is becoming as elusive as she is.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That's a powerful metaphor for the feeling of being erased from the reality of someone you love.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It speaks to the profound sense of loss and isolation Jeremy is experiencing.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That regression to childhood could symbolize a breakdown of Jeremy's ego.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
A desperate attempt to escape the pain of his current reality. The cafeteria, a place associated with routine and normalcy, becomes a stage for his internal turmoil.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
His inability to reconcile his past with his present.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Absolutely. And this feeling of disorientation continues in subsequent entries. He's drawn back to the garden, but it no longer feels real. He finds remnants of their shared experiences. Emily's picnic basket, her crumpled tissue. But it's as if he's reliving a memory that might not have happened.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It's a powerful testament to the author's ability to convey the complexities of human emotion.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And then in a jarring shift, Jeremy wakes up in a hospital room.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The sterile environment, the sounds of medical equipment. Right. It's a stark contrast to the emotional turmoil of his previous entries.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
That sudden transition to a hospital setting raises so many questions.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Is this a physical manifestation of Jeremy's mental breakdown?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
Or is there something else at play, something we haven't yet grasped?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
And it perfectly sets the stage for the final act of this captivating story.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
even real at all it's a classic element of the unreliable narrator trope right oh yeah the protagonist's grip on reality is so tenuous right that it makes us the readers question everything we've experienced along with them it's incredibly effective yeah i was genuinely feeling jeremy's despair that sense of being unmoored from reality yeah
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
The setting that's become so symbolic throughout the story.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
What's the atmosphere like this time?
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
It sounds like the author is using the setting to really kind of mirror that emotional intensity of their relationship.
Class with Mason
Reviewing: Two Years to Forever - A Love That Defies Time
This return to the garden, especially with a newfound sense of reality, could signify a turning point for Jeremy. A potential reconciliation with himself, with his perception of the world.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, so 1948 would be 7.48 p.m.?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And the date would have been July 18th?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So that date and time stamp would have been on the photocopy of the photo that you showed him?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ask him if he was the sole owner of the Malibu?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I asked him if he was driving the vehicle that date and time. He said, yes, that was me. I asked him, is anyone else in the car with you at that time and that particular date? He goes, no, it was just me.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you aware at that point that a runner had been seen on the surveillance video taken from Logan Collins' residence?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. It was one of the pictures. It was shown that there was a person.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. The first time that I got involved, I was with the Iowa City Police Department and they told me that they needed assistance with the Hispanic community for me to go ahead and do interviews in Spanish.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you point that out to the defendant?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I pointed out to the person that was running, and that's what I told Mr. Rivera. You see this person that is running? He said yes, she was running.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So he used the term she?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now the picture that you would have shown him would have been essentially a shadowed dot. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is right.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Was there any way to tell in the photo that you used with the defendant if it was male or female?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And he used the term her?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ms. Romero, at this point, did the defendant then describe seeing anyone running in Brooklyn at about that time on that date?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he went on describing that it was a female girl running.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he say at this point how many times he observed this female runner while in Brooklyn?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Rivera told me that he saw her three times. He saw her first turn around, came back. He stated that she even waved at him and smiled and then he went back and that is when he continued doing what he was doing at that time.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What was it that he was supposedly doing in Brooklyn?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He stated that he was trying to find his way around town, that he was heading to his uncle's residence to obtain a vacuum cleaner.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So he told you that he saw a female running. Yes. On three different occasions. Did he ever place himself out on the county blacktop east of Brooklyn?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The way that Mr. Rivera described that first sight of the female was it was in a paved road near a curb.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he ever indicate that he got out of his car or engaged her in any way?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not at that particular time.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So he never would have had any contact with Molly Tibbetts other than, at least that's what he said, never had any contact with her other than seeing her?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At that time, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
After seeing her the last time, the third time, where did he say he went in Brooklyn?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And how many days in July did you spend in Poweshiek County assisting in the investigation in that manner?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Rivera told me that he lost track of her, that he lost sight of her, and continued on his way to pick up the vacuum cleaner.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he then say where he went?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And to town, I am guessing because he told me that he was going to his uncle's residence, which was in the trailer court inside Brooklyn.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you have a discussion with the defendant about the appearance of the female runner that he saw?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I asked her what he thought of the female runner first, and his answer was I found her attractive. I asked him what she was wearing. He said black shirts, maybe a top sport bra, and he continued describing. He did not say the name of it, but he just said one of those things that you put on to measure your steps or to hold your cell phone.
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Or to what?
Crimeatorium
Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Hold your cell phone? Hold the cell phone.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he ever use any other term other than attractive to describe the runner that he saw?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He stated at one point that he thought that she was hot.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One day.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ms. Romero, during this conversation, does the defendant ever admit to you that he had anything to do with harming Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Moving forward to August 20th of 2018, were you contacted by law enforcement in Poweshiek County to come to Montezuma to interview a person identified to you as Christian Rivera?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right at that time, he said no.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
A break was taken after this discussion?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
During that break was, uh, Christian Rivera, uh, placed into custody.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And did the interview then continue in the vehicle later on that morning?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So later on in the morning at approximately 4 30 a.m. Did you Christian Rivera or Christian Bahena Rivera and another officer leave the sheriff's office?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. Officer Kivi, an agent from FBI and myself and Mr. Herrera left the office.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And where did you go?
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We went to Mr. Rivera's residence and the farm that he worked at. I believe it was a property. Yes. All right.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's an area in southeast of Brooklyn, correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not familiar with the area, but yes, that's Poweshie County.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Then did you proceed to a rural area in far eastern Poweshie County?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We landed in Cornfield.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, I'm going to show you a photo. Do you see States Exhibit 3 there on the screen, Ms. Romero?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I do.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This location that is on the map is 2478 460th Avenue. Do you see that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I do.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What kind of road is that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Gravel road.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is it, even for a rural county, is that area pretty rural?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was a corn field. It was corn fields all around us.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, that's a good point. This is August of 2018, correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the corn is up, right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, it was August 21st already, yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right. The corn is up and at least about head high. Would you agree?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. The grass was pretty tall, too. All right.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The nearest town to where this location is that you went with Mr. Rivera, the defendant, is nearest the town of Guernsey. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it's almost to the Iowa County line. Would that be true?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you in the vehicle with the defendant roadside at that location that we see here on Exhibit 3?
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Yes.
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We're going to look at Exhibit, I believe it's 25. Exhibit 25, is this the general area that you would have been parked roadside with the defendant, Christian Bahena-Rivera?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, my name is Pamela Romero.
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When I was contacted, I was not made aware that I was going to go ahead and interview.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, that's where we were parked.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. To the right on this photo, there is an opening to a cornfield. Is that correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And through that area, who was located there?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Molly Tibbetts' body.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ever go out to the location of the body?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Were other officers present at this location?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, they were.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Which direction are we looking here? We would be looking back to the east. Would that be accurate?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That will be accurate.
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Okay. And then exhibit number 26, if we can see that. The opening to that cornfield there is on the left on exhibit 26. Do you see that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And generally, does this area show where you were parked in the vehicle with the defendant?
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Yes. We were close to that white vehicle.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Say that again.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We were like in front of that, where that white vehicle is right now, like in front of that. Like those vehicles were not there then, but it was close to that area.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So a little bit further up the road is what I'm hearing you say.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At some point, were you told that you were needed to assist in the interview of the defendant?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And this is looking back to the west. Would that be true?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That will be true.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was there any fence between the two posts or to cross into the cornfield?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, there wasn't.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ms. Romero, whenever you got back into the vehicle, did you read the defendant's Miranda warnings?
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Yes, I did. So inside the vehicle was Mr. Rivera, myself, and Sergeant Jeff Fink.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did he wave those?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he wanted to talk to me.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you then ask him what happened between he and Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I asked Mr. Rivera to give me all the details that he could remember since he approached Molly Tibbetts.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. What was the first thing the defendant told you about seeing a female on July 18th of 2018 near Brooklyn, Iowa at or near 7.45 p.m.?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He told me he saw her running again three times. One of those times he parked his car behind her, ran after her or jogged after her, came close to her that she noticed him. She turns around. makes the attempt to use his cell phone to call the police. At this point, Mr. Rivera told me that he got angry and that that is when they started fighting.
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Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. All right, let's break that apart just a bit. So the defendant on this occasion, this is while you were seated in the car roadside that we just saw, correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry, go ahead.
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When I got there.
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Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He admits seeing Molly Tibbetts?
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Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
he indicates that he followed her yes okay whenever you say that he said that he followed her did he indicate that he followed her in his car for a period yes did he then tell you that he stopped his car he said i parked my car yes and he got out of his vehicle and i started jogging behind her Is there another officer in the vehicle that you were in interviewing him that also spoke Spanish?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When you arrived in Montezuma?
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Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, Sergeant Jeff Fink speaks Spanish.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And does Officer Fink ask him if that was on 385th Avenue?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And how do you spell your last name?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he did.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what did the defendant respond?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Rivera confirmed that it was.
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confirmed that he had seen Molly Tibbetts on 385th Avenue?
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And why were you chosen to be the person to interview the defendant?
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Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You told us that he jogged towards her and that a cell phone was used. Is that correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is what he said. Mr. Rivera said that she made the attempt to use the cell phone, later telling me that she told him that she was going to call the police.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what was the defendant's reaction to Molly Tibbetts' threat to call the police?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Rivera said that he got angry.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he indicate that there was any type of physical altercation?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
After he stated that he got angry, he stated that they started fighting.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was he any more specific at this point as to what the fight was?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He said that Molly tried to slap him and was screaming at him.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did this make him angry?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Rivera said that this is when he became angry.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, What is the next thing that Christian Rivera told you that he remembers while he was on this road with Molly Tibbetts?
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I was brought to the understanding that Mr. Rivera spoke Spanish, so me being a native speaker, it will be easier for me and him to communicate.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So once Mr. Rivera told me that he got angry and he remembered them starting fighting, he stated that usually when he becomes angry or when he gets mad, he blocks out. So the next thing that he told me was that he remembered him driving.
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and looking down into his legs and finding the earbuds that belonged to Molly, and that is when he remembered that he had Molly in the back of his vehicle in the trunk.
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He did not tell you that he remembered putting her in the trunk?
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He stated that he did not remember putting her inside the car. He did not remember how she got there, but he did remember how he took her out of the vehicle. Okay.
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But he did remember her being in the trunk?
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Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And where were the earbuds at specifically in his car? The earbuds he described, where did he put them?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He stated that he was driving, looked down on his legs. That's how he put it, and that's when he saw them.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did the defendant indicate to you where he took Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, at the location where we were at at.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To a cornfield?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To the cornfield.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Does the defendant describe at this point any injuries to Molly Tibbetts' body?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He remembers that there was blood. He told me that he took her out of the car, put her on top of his shoulder, carried her inside into the cornfield, laying her down, covering her with corn leaves, and leaving right away.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And were you briefed at the time by officers that were involved in the investigation as to what the facts were of the investigation to that point?
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Is he specific at all concerning the injuries to Molly Tibbetts as to what part of her body those injuries were located?
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At one point I asked him, was it the head that it was bleeding? Was it the forehead? He stated with his hand in motion, the neck.
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R-O-M-E-R-O.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So did he actually say the neck or did he just point to his neck?
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He stated and he pointed to the neck.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he describe for you how her body felt when he carried her?
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I asked him how her body felt against his body when he was carrying her. He told me that it felt like a person that had just fainted.
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Did the defendant ever tell you or remember for you any weapon that was used to cause the injuries to Molly Tibbetts that would have caused her to bleed?
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No, he did not.
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He couldn't remember it?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He could not remember.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is it fair to say that in your conversation with Christian Rivera roadside at the cornfield that the recall by the defendant was not complete?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I was trying to get more details from him.
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Yes, DCI agents and FBI agents.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it was not complete in terms of he never discussed a weapon that was used to harm Molly Tibbetts?
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That is correct.
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He did not provide you turn by turn a drive that he took to the cornfield, correct? Correct. And there may have been some other details left out, is that right?
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Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did the defendant provide you any information concerning the condition of his clothing?
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Yes, he told me that he had no shirt on because it was stained with blood. I'm sorry, I didn't... He had no shirt on because it was stained with blood. Or it could be bloody.
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At the time that you were requested to assist in the investigation, had the body of Molly Tibbetts yet been located? No. Whenever you came to Montezuma, did you come with any other Iowa City police officer?
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He had no shirt on at what point?
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When he was carrying her inside the cornfield.
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After he covers Molly Tibbetts with corn leaves, did he leave right away?
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Yes, he said I left right away.
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You asked him again in this part of the interview concerning putting her in the car. Do you recall that?
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Yes.
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He doesn't remember putting Molly Tibbetts in the vehicle, but remembers taking her out. Is that accurate?
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That is accurate.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
After going through this statement with the defendant, did you press him then for more details?
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Yes, I did.
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Because of those gaps that we just mentioned, is that right?
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Yes.
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Did you want to get all of the information that you could possibly get from the defendant?
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Yes.
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That was your goal?
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That was my goal.
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Did you ever then press him then on more details? How did you go about doing that?
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Yes, so I went to ask him, Mr. Vera, please just let me know, give me more details how she got into the car, what happened to her, what did you do to her. His answer was, I brought you here, didn't I? So that means that I did it. I don't remember how I did it.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So he tells you that you were pressing him for more details?
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Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He tells you that he brought you all the way out to her?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So that means I did it, right? It was a question, is that correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is how he put it, yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then he follows that with, I don't know how I did it, is that correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you press him at one point on more details by asking him what changes?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He goes, nothing changes. I brought you out here. And then he restates what he told me earlier.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, and towards the end of this interaction with the defendant, You come back to asking him about being scared when Molly Tibbetts threatened to call the police. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What was his reaction or what was his answer to that particular statement?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He said that he got scared, but he got angry too.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And he was angry about her threatening to call the police?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ask him after this happened, did you think about it?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What was his answer to that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He goes, not really.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And when people, you asked him, when people were looking for Molly Tibbetts, did you ask him, what were you thinking?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. At that time, I was traveling with Sergeant Fink.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What was his reaction to that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I remember he just shrugged his shoulder and he goes, I didn't think about it.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he say that he felt bad?
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No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he say that he blocked out everything or tried to?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The part where he got angry, yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This interaction with... Christian Rivera or Christian Bahena Rivera at the roadside lasted how long in the car?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, I don't have exact times, but it was probably an hour or so.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And at any point in time, did you go back into the cornfield to observe the area where Molly Tibbetts had been found?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sorry, say that again.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you drive back to the sheriff's office with the defendant?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ms. Romero, currently how are you employed?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sergeant Fink.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. No, not with the defendant.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. But you went back?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The man that you've just recounted, these statements that he gave to you on August 20th and 21st, is he seated here in the courtroom?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he is.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Please point to him and describe what he's wearing.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
F-I-N-K?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He is right there, and he is wearing a light blue shirt with the gray dress pants.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Your Honor, the record should reflect that Ms. Romero has identified the defendant, Christian Bahena-Rivera.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what is Sergeant Fink's first name? Is it Jeff?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Record will so reflect.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's all I have.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you. Ms. Freeze, you may cross-examine.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ms. Romero, you said that Mr. Bahena made a statement that kind of gestured a slitting of a throat. Is that correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
My mistake, it was not the slitting of the throat. It was just more of a sign. Like he went like this through to the neck.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, and so what did you understand him to mean when he did that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was asking him where there was blood, either head, forehead, and I myself went head, forehead, which he said neck, and he went like this.
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Yes.
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Sorry, that's okay. Whenever you left Iowa City, where was the first place you went to then in Poweshake County?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So my client specifically said that there was blood on her neck, is that right? That is what I understood from him, yes. And from what you understood was that her neck was bleeding, is that correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, at the time he just said that there was blood in the neck and that's how I took it.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You understand that our injuries are not consistent with that? I was not aware of the injuries. You don't know anything about the injuries in this case, is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I know what the information that they have given me, yes, but not any details or anything in particularly.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That would be a different area for someone else to testify to, is that right? That is correct. Someone that has expertise in what her injuries were, is that correct? Yes. But from what Mr. Bahena said is that there was blood specifically on her neck, is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When I asked him, I asked him again, was there blood in the head, forehead? He pointed to his neck like this and he said in the neck.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And when he pointed to his neck, he had his thumb and his forefinger around his neck as if someone was being strangled.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We went to the sheriff's office in Poweshade County.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, he just said that. I did not think of cuts, strangles, or anything like that. I just was trying to understand where he saw the blood.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You've pressed my client many times for more details. Is that right? Yes. You told him several times that you didn't believe that he didn't remember these details. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that where you met with other officers that you just described?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did not tell him that I did not believe him. I told him that I understood if he had that condition. I even remember saying that that could be a condition when someone blacked out. But no, I do not recall saying that.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But as far as what exactly happened, you know, whether a knife was used or some sort of an object, you just don't know. Is that right? That is right. And that's because my client did not give you that information. Is that correct? That is correct. Now, he did lead you to the body. Is that right? Yes, he did. And what he did is he said, this is where this happened. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you were briefed on the investigation at that point?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He showed me the cornfield and he goes, this is the cornfield where I came, took her out of the trunk. carry her on my shoulder, went inside the cornfield, drop her on the ground, cover her with leaves, and I left right away.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct, yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now you were very clear to him that you wanted more information, is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In the car, yes, when I was doing the interview, I wanted more details. I was trying to have him remember what happened between the time that he stated that he did not remember how she got in the car, but he remembered when he took her out of the car.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was that the time when it was decided that you would attempt to interview the defendant, Christian Bahena-Rivera?
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Now, he wouldn't provide you with those details. Is that correct? That is correct. And specifically, when he asked or when you were pressed for details, he said, I brought you here, right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He kept restating that, yes, I brought you here, didn't I? I brought you here, didn't I?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And another thing that he said to you is, what changes? Is that right? Yes. He knew that. I mean, many hours before, he was detained on an immigration hold. Isn't that right? Yes. He was detained around 11.30 p.m. at night. And when he was talking to you at this cornfield, that was approximately 5 or 6 o'clock in the morning. Isn't that right? We left the office at 4.30 a.m.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And he knew once you were there that he was going to be arrested for her homicide. Isn't that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At that time, when the 1130 interview with the ICE agent, at that time he was under custody.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And specifically, though, ma'am, between 5 and 6 in the morning when you are at that cornfield, he has brought you to the body. He's led you in the cornfield. Isn't that right? That is right. And he knew that he was going to be placed under arrest for her homicide, isn't that right? What he was thinking, I'm not sure what his thoughts were.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, he had no reason to believe that he wasn't going to be held accountable, isn't that right? I guess not. And you asked him for more details, right? Yes. And he was simply unwilling to give them to you, is that correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When was the first time that you met the defendant?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, I will not say the word unwillingly. He kept stating that when he got angry, he blocks out. So I'm not sure if he was not willing to do it or he was just describing a condition that he had. Again, it's not my area. Now you're trained in interview techniques, is that right? I received, like I stated earlier, 16 hours of the CTK class. Have you ever heard of the term false confession?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was brought in one of the classes of the training, yes. Explain for the jury what a false confession is. Sorry, but I will not be able to do that because I do not have the knowledge of what it is exactly.
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It was at that time. He was sitting out at the lobby, and I was told by the DCI agents that he was out there, so I went out there to introduce myself.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Explain what you were trained at the interview technique schools that you were at.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I do not remember going into details with a false confession. My training was how to direct an interview, how to do report building, how to go ahead and get to know the person that you were interviewing. how to conduct the interview and manage like that.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I am the Learning and Development Specialist at West Liberty Foods, located in West Liberty, Iowa.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, ma'am, you have some very reputable skills that I would assume, given your dual language, is that you did interviews quite a lot in your capacity as a law enforcement officer. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It all depends what you mean quite a lot. Again, I started my career with law enforcement and I was doing this for two and a half years almost at the time. So I was still brand new to all of it. And I was, yes, conducting interviews in a small town of West Liberty, which I There were not a lot of interviews to be done. It all depends what a lot means to you.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was generally known in the community that you were a native Spanish speaker. Isn't that right? That is correct, yes. And so if there was someone that was investigating a case involving someone that spoke Spanish, they would often bring you in to assist. Isn't that right? Yes. And have you ever been asked to assist in another jurisdiction such as this case? No. All right.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, ma'am, I want to talk to you a little bit about report building. That's something that you've learned at the academy?
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I told him who I was, so I'm Officer Romero with Iowa City Police Department at the time, and told him, thank him for being there and for being patient, and to let him know that I was gonna go ahead and be a few minutes for us to go ahead and bring him back.
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Yes, a little bit in the academy, but again, the report building skills that I learned were mostly at the CTK classes. And specifically, what is rapport building? Again, just getting to know the person that you're talking to, anything about family, history, employment, anything that we can go ahead and get out of the specific person.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it sounds to me like you talked to my client for about two hours just doing general rapport building.
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Again, I do not recall the exact times, but yes, the interview was long.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You did speak to him about a number of different things. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is right. We spoke about family. He gave me a list of uncles and aunts. You talked to him about his employment and where he worked.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that right? Yes, that is right. You also talked to him about family.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
how often he worked is that correct yes and he talked to you and ma'am i do have your trans or not your transcripts but the transcripts here if you'd like to look at them but he talked to you about how often he worked at the dairy farm is that right yes he did he told you that he worked long hours is that right seven days a week yes five to five sometimes All right.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And so he goes into work at 5 o'clock in the morning, is that correct? That is correct. That's what he told me. And then he would leave work at 5 p.m., is that right? Yes, he said the 12-hour shift. And he would work seven days a week on his on week, is that right? Yes, he told me that there were some every other weekend or something like that, that he was off.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So generally there would be one week that he would work every single day, 12-hour days, is that right? That was my understanding when I spoke to him. And then the next week he would have two days off, is that right? He said every other weekend, so yes, that's what I understand. And that second week, so he'd work five of the seven days, is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did not ask what week he was on at that particular time, so I'm not sure.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, so you went out initially and introduced yourself?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, let me ask a better question for you. Generally, if it was a two-week period, he would work 12 of the 14 days. Is that right? Yes. And so I understand you don't know about what days were off, but he would work 12 hours a day, 12 of the 14 days a week. Is that right? Again, he told me he went in at 5 a.m., come out at 5 p.m. And you didn't have anything to dispute that, is that right? No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He talked to you about his family in the area, is that right? Yes. You were able to connect to him that you both immigrated here to the United States, is that right? Yes. You told him that you immigrated here when you were 10, right? Yes. And he said that he came to the United States when he was about 17. Yes, if I recall correctly, yes. Did he tell you the area or the township that he was from?
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Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Then you went back to where?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he did.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Where was he from? I do not recall the name of the town, but he was from the south part of Mexico. The state, I believe it was Guerrero.
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Back to the room where the other agents were at.
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That's what I thought was the town, so it sounds like you're following this better than me. Did you ask him about his parents and if they're still alive? Yes, I did. And did he tell you where they were? They said that they were both in Mexico. So they were still in Mexico in Giro, is that right? Yes. Did you ask him about if he had any siblings? Yes, I did. And did he tell you about his family?
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Yes, he did. And what family did he have other than his parents in Mexico?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
After speaking with officers, after introducing yourself to the defendant, did you then go back out to the lobby to get him, to bring him back to attempt an interview?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, in Mexico, I do not recall anymore besides the parents, but I believe he mentioned a brother or sister. But we mostly focus on the family that he had here and around the area.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And my notes, and I don't think I want to make you go through the interview here, but it said he had two siblings. But your understanding is he had a sibling or two that were still with his parents. Is that right? That was my understanding, yes. He also told you that he's building a house in Mexico. Is that right? Yes, he did.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And how is it that one works in Iowa, you know, 12 out of 14 days of a week and still is doing that in Mexico?
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Again, everybody, I don't know how he's doing it. The things that I know is that that's what a lot of immigrants do. That is what my parents did. We came here for a better life and we were building a house, meaning that someone does the construction work while you send money to them.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it's not unusual for someone that is an immigrant in this country to still be sending money home to their family. Is that right? That is right. And is it unusual for a family to be separated where, you know, part of the family immigrates to the country and the other part of the family stays there?
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That's not unusual.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why would a family do that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because of their immigration status?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, with Christian, him sending money back to his family to take care of his family Is that something that's unusual? No. Now, the money that someone can make in the United States versus in Mexico, is that significant?
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Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I will say so. To be honest, I came here when I was 10, so I do not have any knowledge of how much money you can go ahead and make in Mexico.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was the defendant cooperative?
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Yes, he was.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he tell you that he spent time with this child?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he stated that he drove down to the Cedar Rapids area where she was living with the mother and that he used to bring her over to Brooklyn.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Where did you take him to be interviewed?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So his daughter would stay with him, you know, those two days out of every 14 days. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
My client also talked about his family that is in the Iowa area. Is that right? Yes. And specifically, he told you that he chose the location that he did because he had uncles in the area. Is that right? Yes. He told you that he had uncles in Tama County. Is that right? Yes. I think he said he had four different uncles in Tama. Again, I do not recall the number, but yes, there were quite a few.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We took him to one of the back interview rooms.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He also told you that he had family in Brooklyn. Is that right? Yes. It sounds to me like he had some aunts that would take care of him and kind of take cook food for him when he had a lunch. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is right. He stated that the uncle's wife was the one who prepared his food.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you take his phone away from him?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He also showed you a picture of his daughter, is that right? No, I do not recall that. You don't recall him showing you a picture of his daughter? No, I do not remember that part. If I showed you a copy of your transcript, would that assist with that? Yes. All right. This was over an 11-hour interview, is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And I'm not expecting you to remember every single detail. But it does show that you asked to see a picture of his daughter, is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you pleasant with him?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not seeing where I asked him to show me the picture. I was asking him for the cell phone number. And right now, when you see my cell phone, I have in the background my own baby. And that is what I saw in his cell phone. He did not show me the picture like this and when this is my daughter. It was just in the background of the cell phone. And I asked, is that your daughter? He said yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. That makes sense. So because it talks and I don't have it right in front of me, I can bring it up. But there's some sort of a statement that you say, oh, that's your daughter. Is that right? Yes. And then you say, oh, she's cute. Is that right? Yes. So you didn't ask to see a picture of his daughter, is that right? No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In the manner that we're speaking here today?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So after the rapport building that happens, and we talked about some of the things you talked about, but you got to know him fairly significantly, is that right? Yes, I believe that we spend time talking. The next thing, you did talk to him some about his status. Is that right? Yes. And we already talked about he came to Mexico when he was 17. Is that right? Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I believe this is the same tone that I was using with him.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You talked to him about how it is that he's able to, I guess, function in the United States without a legal status. Is that right? Yes. And my client didn't make any sort of statements or try to represent to you that he was legally in this country. Is that right? No, he was very upfront with you that he was here illegally. Is that right? Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Whenever you showed him back to the interview room, did you point out the exits to him?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He was brought here when he was 17 and he's just remained. Is that correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He told me that he had been in the United States for seven years and four in Brooklyn.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One thing that you were very clear to him on the outset is that you were not here to investigate his immigration status. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I do remember telling him a couple of times that I was not interested in his status.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And so specifically, you said you were worried about this girl's disappearance. You were not the immigration police. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what is West Liberty Foods?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At one point, I did mention that, but not at the beginning of the interview.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, why don't you look at page 26 now? And you were very clear with him that you are not here to investigate his immigration status. Is that right? Yes. And he was very clear to you that he was in this country illegally. Is that correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He told me that he was using another name and social security number.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And specifically that he was working under the name of John Budd. Is that right? Yes. He talked to you about using that name. Is that right? Yes. He said that he has no credit cards, debit cards or anything like that. Is that correct? Yes. Basically, he uses that name so that he is able to work. Yes. And then he cashes the check and operates with cash, is that correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I made sure I knew where the exits were before I took him down. When we were walking down, it was myself and Mr. Rivera, and I show him there's the exit sign right there. That means that that's an exit door.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, that's what he told me.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, the statement that you had about immigration, that you were not here to arrest him for immigration, you genuinely believed that at that time, is that right? Yes. Now, there were people that were not in the interview room that were making the big picture decisions on the case. Is that right? Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How many other people were there working on that case from the FBI, DCI, any sort of law enforcement agency?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not able to tell you that. I don't know.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
From what you saw, were there more than 10 people?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not that I remember. I mean, I do remember like four, five of them.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, you are aware that when my client was brought into custody, that his vehicle was also being processed. Is that right? At the beginning of the interview, I was not aware of that. You were made aware of that at a certain time. Is that right? That is right. And specifically, you were told at that point in time that there had been hair that was found in Mr. Rivera's vehicle. Isn't that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Later on in the interview, yes. And explain to me, who told you that there was hair that was found in the vehicle? I do not recall who told me that. At that time, you were made aware that my client's vehicle was being searched and was being processed by the Division of Criminal Investigation, is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, I'm not sure who was investigating the vehicle. I was aware that the vehicle was being investigated, but not sure who it was.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And I'm not asking you when, but at some point in time during that night, you became aware that simultaneously, as my client's being interviewed, his vehicle is also being processed. Is that right? That is right, yes. And one of the things that you were told... was that there was hair that was found in that vehicle. Is that correct? Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was there a door on the room that you conducted the interview in?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it was believed that that hair may be from Molly Tibbetts. Isn't that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I do not recall telling him that it was from Molly Tibbetts. I believe I told him that there was hair found with the information that I got from the outside, but I did not mention Molly Tibbetts.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You went in and you confronted my client saying that there was hair found in the vehicle. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's a turkey process meat factory.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, there was a door which I showed to Mr. Rivera that the door was unlocked.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I informed Mr. Rivera They were telling me that there was hair found in the vehicle.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you essentially were saying, hey, explain this. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, which he stated that it was hair from his daughter.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You later found out that the statement or what you were told was not true. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Later on, again, I do not recall that. All right. I did not... People were not there telling me, yes, this is true, this is not true. I was given the information, going in there, conducting the interview.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right, so it would be for this jury to listen to the evidence and to find out if hair was actually found in the vehicle. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is someone else's part to explain.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But one of the things that you confronted him with is that there was hair in his vehicle. Is that right? I informed Mr. Rivera that there was hair. And as far as the immigration, what you told him, it turned out to be a lie. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You're telling me you could leave at any time?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, it wasn't a lie. I was not there for immigration status. I was not there to ask him about his status at all. I was there, again, to conduct an interview, and that's what I did.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
one of the tactics you were taught to use is to present a suspect with information that ties them to the crime isn't that right yes and sometimes investigators use false information to present to a suspect isn't that right yes and the information that you told him that you were not worried about his immigration status that changed at 11 30 p.m isn't that right
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was he agreeable to speak with you?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That did not change because I was not interested in his immigration status.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, at about 11.30 p.m., he was placed in custody for immigration. Is that right? By ICE agents, correct. Okay, so a break was taken in the interview, and he was put in custody for being illegally in the United States. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he was.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's what I understood at 11.30, yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
My client had just gotten off of work or was finishing the day at work when he was brought in. Isn't that right? I'm not sure.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was not given that information. Well, that's what he told you. He told me that he was at work when they went to talk to him.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So up until this point, what language were you speaking with the defendant?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And the interview started at about 5 o'clock p.m.? Approximately 1706. And 1706 would be 506? 506, yeah. So that would be approximately the end of his day at the dairy farm, is that right? With the information that he gave me, yes. And that interview continued through the night, isn't that right? Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So he was given breaks, but he was essentially in a small room at the sheriff's office from 5 p.m. at night until...
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
4 30 the next morning is that right yes that was an 11 hour interview with approximately eight to nine breaks that he was given he was given food he was given breaks to use the restroom he was um given numeral number of like breaks to just be by himself yes
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
His family came and asked to talk to him. Isn't that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Spanish.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right. When the interview began shortly after, what language were you speaking with the defendant?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not sure what the family asked. I was told that there was family out in the lobby, and I went outside to talk to them.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you talked to his family. Were you able to get their names? No, I was not. There were two people there. Is that right? I recall seeing three of them there. When you talked to them, you suggested that they go home.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I told them that I wasn't aware of how long this was going to go ahead and go for, that it was late, that if they wanted to go home, that they could.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ever offer them a chance to speak with my client? No, I did not. Did you ever tell my client that his family was there to speak with him?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not to speak to him. I made Mr. Herrera aware that he had family out in the lobby.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You made him aware that he had family out in the lobby? Yes. If my client says that you never made him aware that he had family out in the lobby, you disagree with that? It was recorded, so it will go ahead and be in the transcripts. All right. So you believe that it's in these transcripts somewhere? Somewhere, yes. All right. Did you offer him a chance to go speak with his family?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Spanish.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You just told him that they were there?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And was the interview recorded?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At the beginning of the interview, I told him he had his cell phone with him. I told him he was free to go whenever he wanted to. He continued to stay. He continued to talk to me.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At some point... in the interview, you talked to my client several times about helping himself. Do you recall that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The word help, it's translated in a different concept in Spanish, so I'm not sure what you are referring to when I said help.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You believe that the transcript is wrong is what you're saying?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not saying that it's wrong, but in my opinion, there are parts that me being a fluent Spanish speaker, I will say that they're not translated the correct way, but that is just my opinion.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, it was.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Recorded by video?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ma'am, these transcripts, First of all, they've been authored by the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement. Is that right? Yes, that's what I was told, yes. So that's their translation, is that right? That's what I was told, yes. And what you're saying is that their translation is not what you believe the translation is?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And audio?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In my opinion, again, there are parts in the transcripts that I believe were not translated the correct way. And the reason why I'm saying this is by looking at the video and reading what they translate it.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would it be fair to say that there's different dialects of Spanish? Yes. Explain that for the jury.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If we were to sit and watch the video and audio of this recorded interview, would we see two people speaking in Spanish?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There are different words that you can go ahead and use to describe something. Like, there are parts of Mexico that, when you say cookie, it could, for other MIBs, like slapping someone in the face. So it's different words that describe different things. It's just hard to explain.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And so my client, he's from Guerrero, Mexico, is that right? Guerrero, Mexico, yes. You say it much better than me. Where are you from in Mexico? I'm from the north side. I'm Durango. As far as dialects, can you give this jury any information on different dialects?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not really, but I do understand that there is different forms that we talk. Like anywhere in the United States, if you are from the north, if you're from the south, they can go ahead and have different accents, different dialects, and that is the same way that has happened in Mexico.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
For example, using the term hey, you know, or hello, are there different ways to say that depending on where you are from?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. It will be like saying soda or pop. I mean, in the United States, it's just different.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, so let's go to page 11 first, and I'll give you a little bit of direction. What number of the transcript? It is 20-27-35, and it's about towards the middle, and I don't want you to read it to me, but let me know when you've had a chance to read the phrase. I think you use help two different times. Have you seen it? Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You will go ahead and see three people speaking Spanish.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what you say is, you say, you can help me understand so you can help yourself. Yes. And at that point, you're, I guess, suggesting that you are able to help my client. Isn't that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, that's not the way that I see it. When I said help me understand in Spanish, it would be ayúdame a comprender. Help me understand what you're trying to say. It's like talking to a kid in school. Help me, guide me to what you are saying. So that is the meaning of the word help in there.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And how long have you worked for West Liberty Foods?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sergeant Jeff Fink, myself, and Mr. Rivera.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You use that phrase multiple different times. You say, let's help each other out. We're here to help each other out. You agree with me on that. Is that right? That is correct. Another thing you say, and I can go through the different transcript places, but you're telling me that we're here to help you out. That's another phrase that you used several times, ma'am. You recall that? Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did the defendant ever converse with you in English?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And at that point you say, we're here to help you out. Yes. Aren't you telling my client that you're there to help him?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Basically what I'm saying, what I mean with that is I am here to hear you out, to see what you have to say.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You say that you're telling him that, but that's not what you said. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, it's just difficult to explain in Spanish because when you say it in Spanish, I'm going to go ahead and talk Spanish. I'm going to go ahead and translate what I said. So help me understand. Again, I was trying to get the information that he needed to tell me.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So unless we understand Spanish, we're not going to understand the video interview by watching it, correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. So it would be fair to say that these transcripts you don't agree with everything that is said in here. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, it's not that I don't agree, it's just that in my opinion, because I believe, again, different dialect, different words being used, it's just not the way that I will translate it myself.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would you agree with me that if you were to translate it yourself, it would probably be about 10% inaccurate? I will not say that, but I will be able to understand it better, yes. All right. You think that you would be able to explain it better. Is that right? That is right.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And someone, and again, it looks like it's transcribed by a Kathy Yanez, but someone has a disagreement with you on how this translation would read. Is that right? What do you mean? The person taking down this information takes it down differently than you would. Is that right? Yes. And that may be different from what my client would. Is that right? It could be.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It will be difficult if you're not fluent in Spanish just because of the speed of the conversation.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Another thing is that he's also being interrogated, and you'd agree with me that this was an interrogation, correct? I do not agree with you on that. Okay, well, he was a suspect here. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did not make him aware that he was a suspect. I did not have anything to hold him as a suspect at the time of the interview.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How many times have you interviewed a witness for 11 plus hours, ma'am? That was the first time, yes. All right. And in this case, he was not only interviewed for 11 plus hours, he was interviewed right after he finished a long day at work. Is that right? Yes, that was the Anderson. And he's not somebody like you and me that goes and sits at a desk all day, correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
With the job description that he gave me, he was not. He's cleaning pens, is that right? Yes. He's scooping poop. Yes. He's on his feet or some other machinery all day, is that right? I did not ask him that. I'm guessing. This man, he works a tough job for 12 hours a day, 12 out of the 14 days a week. Isn't that right? That is what he told me, yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We'd have to be fluent in Spanish in order to understand it, in your opinion?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then he's brought in and he is questioned from you on and off for 11 plus hours. Isn't that right? The interview went for 11 hours, yes. And it was not until the very end, the last couple of hours, that he was willing to give you really any information. Is that right? That's not the way that I took it. Okay. He agreed that he saw her out running. Is that right? Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In my opinion, yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But other than that, he did not give you any significant information until the last couple of hours. Okay. He did give me information. Okay, what information did he give you? It will be recorded in the transcripts. Okay, that's fair. This man fell asleep multiple different times during this interview, is that right? Not to my knowledge, no. Well, he was given breaks, is that right? Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Agent Romero, are you able to translate your conversation that you had with... the defendant on the night of August 20th and morning of August 21st of 2018.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And during those breaks, he fell asleep... Multiple different times.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was not aware of that.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you don't believe that my client fell asleep during this interview? I did not see him fall asleep during the interview. And you disagree, noticing that he was tired?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's going to be two years in June 26 of this year.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I do not disagree with you. At the end of the interview, he looked tired. I looked tired. Everyone was tired.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, let's turn first to... 20 27 35 and if you could go to page 15 and i'm sorry go to page 21. if you could read it's about 10 lines in do you recall ma'am and and just to be clear this transcript at 20 27 35 that deals with the military time stamp is that right yes So that would have been at 8.35 at night that night, is that correct? Yes. So about three hours into the interview.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And at that point in time, it appears that you're walking back into the room, is that correct? Yes. And what is it that you acknowledged to my client? I said, you fell asleep. And so do you recall walking back into the room and seeing that he was asleep? No, I do not recall that.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I asked him because it took a little bit to come back.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
what does he respond back to you he did not admit or anything he just goes and just a little bit yes so you're telling this jury that you agree that you said that is that right yes or are you saying that it's an inaccurate translation no i'm telling you that i do remember telling him that because i took a long time to come back from that break
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and what i'm telling the jury right now is that at the time when i that i spent with chris mr rivera and all of that time mr rivera did not put his head down did not act as he was sleeping when we were in the conversation he was very engaged he was answering the questions that i was making and at no point i saw him sleeping all right let's go to page 22 now ma'am it's the same transcript
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And if you could read the last portion and just let me know, have you had a chance to look at it or do you need more time? And just to kind of, I guess, bring you to where you were in the conversation, he's talking to you about a date that he was supposed to have with a woman. Is that right? Yes. And he did talk to you about that he was supposed to have a date with a woman on July 19th.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Have you had an opportunity to review both video as well as transcripts prior to coming in here today?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that right? That is correct. And you talked about it with him a little bit that he had even bought the woman flowers. Is that right? Yes. He had had arranged through his cousin to get flowers because he's working normally during the day. Is that right? Yes. He had said that he had cleaned his car so that it was ready for this date. Is that right? Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He said that he was going to take this woman to Des Moines to go out to eat. Is that right? Yes. He said that they had bet on a soccer game or something. Is that right? That is right. And he said that he lost, so he was buying. Is that right? Yes. And he told you that that date was supposed to be on July 19th of 2018. Is that right? That is correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what he told you is that that date never happened because the tornado? Yes. What was the answer you said? Because of the tornado, he was not able to visit. This woman, she lived in Marshalltown, is that correct? Yes. What happened to be is that this tornado in Marshalltown hit the day after Molly Tibbetts went on this run. Is that right? I do not recall. Okay.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And do you recall the interview also from your own memory as to what was said during that interview?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But he said he was planning to take her on the date and this tornado hit at the same time. Is that right? Yes. So going back to this interview, you're talking about this different date and who bought the flowers and everything. Is that right? Yes. And at that point in time, you excused yourself so that he could eat. Is that right? Yes. And what is it that he says?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He goes, I am going to sleep here, question mark, so I can start making myself comfortable, right? That was a joking matter. I took it because he chuckled. And I said, no, no, don't get too comfortable. All right. I'll be right back.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And keep moving down the transcript, ma'am. I told him no, no. You don't need to keep reading it, but go ahead and read it to yourself.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So where exactly do you want me to go from here? If you could go to 24, page 24. And what's shown is that you go back into the room. Is that right? Yes. So you gave him a break. Is that correct? Yes. And at that point in time, you asked him how he was doing. Is that right? Yes. Yes. And my client told you that he was sleepy.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Prior to going into the interview, Agent Romero You did not know the location of Molly Tibbetts' body?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that correct? Well, I did not ask him. It was Sergeant Jeff that made the question, how are you doing? And he responded, sleepy.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So at that portion of the interview, my client acknowledged that he was tired. Is that correct? Yes. If you could go to 220904, that's the next transcript. And so that would be about 10 o'clock at night. So this would be at about 1150 at night. Is that correct? Yes. Again, I do not remember the exact times. Well, the transcript would have been, it's labeled that it's 235034, correct? Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So that would correspond with about 1150, right? Right. And at the beginning of that transcript, you asked my client if he's sleepy. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I said, are you sleeping, Christian? And he says a bit. Yes, his response was a bit.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now I'd ask you to go to page 32. Yes. At that point in time, you also ask my client, you say, you are sleepy, right? Yes. And he says yes. And again, chuckles. Now, ma'am, I guess I can show portions of the video if need be that my client's sleeping, but I want to make clear. So are you saying that he was never sleeping when you were in the room, or are you saying that he was never sleeping?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you know that Molly Tibbetts' body had been covered by corn leaves and was located in a cornfield? Did you have that knowledge before talking to Christian Bahena-Rivera?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm saying that he was never sleeping when I was in the room. He did not make any indicators. Whenever I make the question, as you can see, he chuckles. He jokes around with it and, again, engages in the conversation with me.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So what you're telling this jury is that he was joking around about being sleepy?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's how I took it, not particularly joking around, but when you ask me a question, I answer it and I chuckle or laugh. To my interpretation, that will be that I'm being serious. So you don't believe that he's sleeping? Again, he was not sleeping when I was making contact with him.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brees and Mr. Brown, could I have you two approach, please? The jury, that completes our service for today. Ms. Romero, I'll remind you, you're still under oath. When we last concluded, the defense had cross-examined the witness, and we're up to Mr. Brown. Do you have any redirect?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, sir. Thank you.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Good morning, Ms. Romero.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Good morning.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The interaction with the defendant that you had at the sheriff's office, was it ever verbally confrontational?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, it was not.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you pleasant with the defendant?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. I will say it was a very friendly conversation.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And you did confront him at times with certain information. Would that be true?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were asked a question concerning a hair that you were told was found in the vehicle of the defendant, is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were provided that information from other officers, correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ever examine the vehicle?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I did not.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ever directly speak to any of the witnesses who examined the Malibu, that vehicle?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you have any prior law enforcement experience?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I did not.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I want to talk to you a bit about the demeanor of the defendant in your interaction with him, okay?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The defense spent a fair amount of time asking you whether or not the defendant appeared sleepy to you or sleep-deprived. Would you agree?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you know or have any knowledge as to the injuries sustained by Molly Tibbetts that caused her death?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Whenever you interacted with him during the interview, was the defendant able to track your questions?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, Mr. Rivera was able to track the questions.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was there ever a time during the interview where you asked him a question where he appeared not to follow what you were asking?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he ever ask for any clarification on any matter that you remember? No. Now, part of the interview that we saw in the room at the sheriff's office, do you recall that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The defendant's phone is sitting in front of him. Is that right? That is correct. Up until 1130 on August 20th of 2018, did you ever try to prevent the defendant from using his phone?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I did not.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sorry?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did not.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Actually, we see in the video, would you agree with me, that he does attempt to use his phone on multiple occasions?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. Objection.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled. Go ahead.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What's the answer to that question?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At those points where the defendant is seen with his phone, would he have been free to go?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You would have allowed him to leave if he wanted to walk out the door?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In fact, did you show him... Or how did you show him that he could get out of the sheriff's office at Power Sheet County?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When I was walking back with Mr. Rivera to the interview room, I showed physically the exit door with the exit signs, and I told Mr. Rivera that he was free to go at any time. When we went inside the interview room, I even moved the lock to the door to make him aware that it was unlocked, that he could go ahead and leave at any time.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you have any knowledge as to Molly Tibbetts blood being located in the black Chevy Malibu? Did you have that knowledge?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And he never did that, correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He never left the sheriff's office on his own?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He did not.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He was put into custody shortly after 1130 on August 20th of 2018, is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
By the agents, yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, I wanted to clarify a couple things relating to translation. Tell us again your knowledge of the Spanish language. How would you characterize it?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was born in Mexico, so that is my first language. That is practically what I used. As a lot of you can tell, I have an accent with my English. Spanish is my primary language.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So regardless of the transcripts that you've been shown, you were at the interview of the defendant, correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You engaged with him?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Did you have any difficulty understanding his answers to your questions?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did the defendant ever express to you any difficulty understanding your questions or statements that you made to him in Spanish?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At the outset of the interview, after introductions and some other basic information, was it made clear to the defendant that you were there to talk about the disappearance of Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because at that time, Molly Tibbetts had not been recovered, correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry, can you repeat that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At the outset of the interview, after the initial introductions and conversation, was it clear that you were there to talk about Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, after the observation.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How would you have made that clear to the defendant?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We again started showing pictures of the surveillance camera that we had, and I laid them down in front of Mr. Rivera, and he admitted that that was his vehicle.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But even prior to that, the name Molly Tibbetts had been introduced into the interview by you.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I had a poster flyer of Molly, the ones that they were putting up around town. I laid it in front of Mr. Rivera, and he told me that he had seen them around town.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And no blood had been found at that point in the black Chevy Malibu, correct? Correct. Because it had not been analyzed yet by the DCI.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were asked yesterday a question by Ms. Freeze where she used the phrasing that her client, meaning Mr. Bahena-Rivera, led you to the body.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you agreed with that. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And by the body, I mean the body of Molly Tibbetts.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you have any personal knowledge as to where Molly Tibbetts was located at the time that you were at the sheriff's office with the defendant?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did not.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To your knowledge, did anyone in law enforcement have knowledge as to the location of Molly Tibbetts while you were at the sheriff's office?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can you please describe that for the jury?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection, calling for hearsay and speculation.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled. Go ahead.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not to my knowledge, no.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So no one in law enforcement had communicated the location of Molly Tibbetts to you?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would you or anyone in law enforcement have knowledge that Molly Tibbetts would have been found with corn stalks covering her body?
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No.
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And lastly, Ms. Romero, did you or any other person in law enforcement that would have informed you know that Molly Tibbetts would have been located in a cornfield in the eastern part of Powshey County?
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No.
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The defendant told you in your interview in the car what with regard to bringing you to that location?
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Correct.
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He stated how he made contact with her. He stated that he did not remember how he put her inside the vehicle, but he did remember getting her out of the vehicle, coming to the cornfield, bringing her into the cornfield, dropping her down, and leaving right away, covering her with corn leaves and leaving right away.
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During your interview with Mr. Rivera, overall, how would you describe his demeanor?
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And he indicated to you that he brought you there, correct?
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Yes.
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That's all. Do you have any recross?
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No further recross. Thank you.
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Judge, our next witness is Amy Johnson. Ms. Johnson, good morning.
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Good morning.
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Okay. Can you please introduce yourself to the jury, state your name, and tell us where you work?
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My name is Amy Johnson. I work for the State of Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation Criminalistics Laboratory.
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And how long do you work for the DCI Crime Lab?
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I have been there for 19 years now.
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And what are your current duties with the crime lab as it relates to crime scene duty?
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I am on call. approximately every six weeks with the criminalistics laboratory and we are available to be called out anywhere within the state during that time that we're on call to process crime scenes.
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On this particular occasion, were you working as a crime scene technician on this case?
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Yes, I did.
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He was friendly. We had a very friendly conversation. I thought so. We were very immersed in the conversation. I was making the questions. He was answering them. Very engaged.
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All right. I'm going to direct your attention back to August 20th of 2018. Were you called to Poweshiek County in reference to a vehicle that needed to be processed?
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Yes. Actually, we were told that there were two vehicles that were available to be processed.
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What two vehicles were you asked to process?
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It was a black Chevy Malibu and I believe it was a tan Nissan Altima.
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And did you proceed then to Poweshiek County? Yes, my partner and I. Who was your partner at the time?
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John and Barry.
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And you and Ms. Berry, what time did you arrive in Poweshiek County?
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Approximately 5.15 p.m.
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And what location in Poweshiek County did you go to?
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It was the Sheriff's Office, Sally Port, where the vehicles were maintained.
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Sally Port is basically just a garage? Correct. And it was at the Sheriff's Office?
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Yes.
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Were both the Altima and the Malibu at the garage? Yes, they were. Now with regard to the Chevy Malibu, was a decision made to transport that vehicle to another location to examine it in more detail?
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Yes. I graduated from Cedar Rapids Police Academy back in 2015. And I started working with the West Liberty police department for two and a half years later transferring to the Iowa city police department for 11 months. And I'm currently a part-timer with West Liberty police department.
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Yes, it was.
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2018?
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Correct.
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And then where was it taken after that to be further analyzed and examined?
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It was transported to the DCI laboratory garage.
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Okay. Let's talk about your examination of the black Malibu on the 20th of August, 2018 at the sheriff's office. Okay? Yes. What did you do with regard to examining the car, the Malibu?
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So we started with taking photographs of the exterior and interior and removing the contents and photographing the contents and logging the contents of the vehicle. And we also... My partner and I took tape lifts of the interior, searching for hair and fibers, and I took samples from some of the stained areas to do presumptive blood testing to determine if they were possibly blood.
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And the areas that you took with regard to presumptive blood stains, were any of them positive?
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Not on that day.
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Okay. They were following, in your following examination, though, at the DCI lab, is that right?
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Did he ever appear to not comprehend any question that you asked him? No. Did you ever not comprehend any answer that he gave? No. At the beginning of the interview Ms. Romero did you speak with the defendant about the vehicle that he drove?
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Yes.
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Okay, we'll talk about that here in just a second. How long did your examination of the Malibu take while you were at the sheriff's office on the 20th of August, 2018?
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I would say it could have been up to three hours before we finished with that vehicle.
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Let's continue on with your examination of the Malibu at the DCI crime lab. What day did that occur?
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The examination occurred on the 22nd of August.
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Okay. And just to make sure we're clear in the timeline, you also were on the crime scene team that went to the cornfield to recover what was believed to be the body of Molly Tibbetts. Is that right? Correct. That had occurred the day before the crime scene. this particular examination. Is that right?
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Yes.
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So we're taking it a bit out of chronological order. Would you agree?
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Yes.
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Okay. But I want to stick with the car for now. Okay. Yes. All right. So the Malibu was transported to the lab. Is that right? Correct. Okay. Whenever you, I want to talk in particular about your search of the trunk. Whenever you had a the Malibu at the crime lab, were you able to search the trunk of the Malibu?
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Yes.
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Were you able to access it easily? Yes. How did you access the trunk? Can you tell us?
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I believe we had a set of keys for that vehicle.
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Now, whenever you examined the trunk of the Malibu, were there various things that were in it?
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Yes.
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Can you describe what those were, please?
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items included in the trunk of the Malibu were a football, a volleyball, a fishing pole in two different pieces, a bag of like a fish stringer, some bobbers, some other fishing equipment like weights, some plastic bags, paper. Okay.
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That's okay. Various items. Would that be true? Yes. Okay. Did you search any of those areas of the trunk, including the contents, for the presence of human blood? Yes. Okay. Can you describe with regard to those items what items you searched for the presence of blood?
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There were stains on several of the items located within the trunk and the football and two pieces of the fishing pole were found to have stained areas that were positive presumptive for blood. And then several other areas were tested that were negative for blood. Right.
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We'll get to the contents here in just a moment. Was there an area of the trunk near the lid of the trunk that you tested for the presence of blood?
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Yes.
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And exactly where would that have been located?
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Yes. At the beginning of the interview, I spoke to him about his work of employment, family history, and the vehicles that he had, who he lived with, and his residence, and just rapport building.
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It was the rubber seal located near the license plate area on the rear of the vehicle. Okay.
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I'm going to have you take a look at a few pictures. I think that may help us, okay?
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Okay.
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First of all, I'm going to show you, can you see the photos on your screen? Yes. Exhibit 40 and 41 are on your screen. What are these pictures of?
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These are pictures of the black Chevy Malibu while it was located in the Powichee County Sheriff's Office garage.
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I'm going to show you what's been previously introduced as Exhibit 43. Can you see that? Yes, I can. What are we looking at here in Exhibit 43? Tell us what we're looking at here in Exhibit 43.
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This is a photograph of the contents of the trunk as we found it at the Powishee County Sheriff's Office.
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And whenever it was transported to the lab, were the contents, did they remain in the trunk? Yes, they did. Exhibit 44, what does that show?
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This is a photograph showing the area that tested positive presumptive for blood located on the rubber seal above the license plate of the rear of the vehicle.
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What we see here, I understand the area that's important to you, but this is also the plate of the car, is that correct? Yes, it is. All right, it's DKP 055? Correct. Would you agree? Yes. Okay. All right. And the area that you're referring to that tested presumptive for blood at the pointer, does that show the area where the blood was found?
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It's located above where your pointer is.
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Okay. And this part of the trunk, this black, what appears to be a rubber part of the trunk, how would you characterize that?
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I feel that that's the seal for when the door is closed to the trunk.
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Let's take a closer look at the stain. Exhibit 45, can you tell us what we're looking at here in exhibit 45?
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This is a closer view of the stain without a scale in it, in the photo.
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And the pointer that I have, is it the stain, where is it at in relation to the pointer?
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The stain is located directly above the pointer.
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And did you put some sort of scale or marker into the photo to give us an idea of size? Yes, I did. All right. We'll take a look at States Exhibit 46. Does that show the scale?
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Yes.
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And again, the spot that tested presumptive for blood is here to the right of the scale. Would you agree?
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Okay. Let's just speak specifically about the vehicle. We'll get into the other things. Okay. Did you talk to him about the vehicle that he drove?
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Correct.
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Ms. Johnson, did you find any other stain that tested presumptive for blood at this time while the car was at the crime lab?
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Besides the areas that I've already indicated?
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Yes.
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The football and the fishing pole also had presumptive positive areas of blood. Okay.
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How many different stains total did you find that would have tested presumptive for human blood?
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Four that we tested.
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Now, did you collect a sample of those particular areas that tested presumptive for blood?
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For the stain in this photo, I took a swab sample of it.
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Okay. Describe for the jury how it is that you would take a sample of the stain that we see here in States Exhibit 46.
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So I had two swabs that I added a distilled water to and used those swabs to take a portion of the sample off of the rubber seal. And then I placed those two swabs into a box and sealed it for submission.
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All right. So what then happens to that particular swab? What section of the lab would it go to? The DNA section would...
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get that sample to analyze.
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You have no expertise in DNA analysis, is that correct?
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Yes.
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No, I do not.
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Do you know Tara Scott? Yes, I do. What is her particular expertise at the laboratory?
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Her specific expertise is DNA.
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Is she also a crime scene technician as well? Yes, she is. Okay. Somebody that you work with?
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And what did he tell you about the vehicle that he drove?
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Yes.
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The other items where you would have taken presumptive blood samples, going back to States Exhibit 43, some of those are shown here in this picture, is that right?
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Yes.
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The balls that you mentioned before? Yes. Okay, and those would have been submitted to the DNA section at the laboratory also, is that right? Correct. Now, what we also see here in States Exhibit 43 is there is some sort of liner that is in the trunk.
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He actually told me that he had two vehicles. One was a black Malibu, Chevy Malibu that he had purchased from one of his cousins.
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Yes.
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And was that liner removed and submitted to the laboratory DNA section for processing?
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Yes. All of the fabric-covered sections of the trunk liner were removed from the trunk for DNA analysis.
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So describe for the jury how the trunk liner was secured in the car, if you recall.
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It had plastic fasteners in certain areas, so we dislodged it from the frame of the vehicle by removing those plastic clips. placing each of those pieces in a cardboard box for submission.
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So would those have been submitted to the laboratory once the vehicle had come to the location at the lab where you examined it?
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Yes, they were submitted the following day.
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Okay, and to your knowledge, who was the criminalist assigned to analyze those items that were seized from the trunk?
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Tara Scott.
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And that would include the swab taken from the rubber seal of the trunk as well, is that right?
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Yes.
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Just to make sure we cover everything, with regard to the trunk that we see here in Exhibit 43, including the other parts of it, the rubber seal, the lid, all of it, was there anything else of significance that you located whenever you examined the vehicle on August 22nd of 2018?
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We submitted several other items from the trunk into the latent print section for analysis.
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Okay. And do you remember what those items were?
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Everything that didn't test positive for presumptive blood.
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So sometimes an item will get submitted for DNA analysis before it goes to the fingerprint section?
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Correct.
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And sometimes vice versa, it may go to the other section first?
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Yes.
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And is there a reason that may be important in a case concerning how a particular item of evidence is analyzed?
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And then he also mentioned another vehicle, an Altima, that he stated that he usually drove in the gravel back roads of the town because the information that he gave me is the reason why he did that is because the vehicle was not up to date with the registrations, the Altima. And the Black Malibu, it was fine, so he said that he drove that one around town.
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Yes, one process may destroy the evidence for the other process to be analyzed.
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So the things that tested presumptive for blood would have gone to DNA first, correct?
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Correct.
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The other items that would not have tested presumptive for blood would have gone to maybe the fingerprint section, correct? Correct. Okay. Whenever you examined the vehicle at the Poweshiek County Sheriff's Office, did you notice the stain that we see here in Exhibit 46?
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It wasn't apparent to us at that time. We were searching the interior of the trunk and I feel that it may have been overlooked.
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Okay. So whenever you got to the lab, this particular blood stain that we see in Exhibit 46, that's when you noticed it? Yes. At the time that you examined the vehicle on August 20th of 2018, had the body of Molly Tibbetts been located? All right, let's move on to August 21st of 2018. Were you called back to Poweshiek County on that date? Yes, I was. And for what purpose?
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Our special agent in charge notified us that there had been a body located and we were requested to process that scene.
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Did you proceed to a certain location in Poweshiek County?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, we did.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Alright, I'm going to put on the screen State's Exhibit 2. There is an arrow on this map and the label is 2478 460th Avenue. It's indicated as the body location. Does that appear to be the same location that you would have proceeded to in Poweshiek County?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, it is.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Did you go anywhere else prior to going out to 2478 460th Avenue?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not on that day.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. You went directly there?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And what time were you called?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was in the 6 o'clock hour in the morning.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What time did you arrive in Powshey County at this location that's indicated on Exhibit 2?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
State of Iowa may call its next witness.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Approximately 9 a.m.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And who else was there?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
My partner, Jonna Berry, was with me.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were other law enforcement present?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, eventually the state medical examiner and his associates were present.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you shown to a location at this address generally where a body was located?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did the medical examiner go into that area before you did?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I believe we went at the same time.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So who was the medical examiner that came to the location, do you recall? Dr. Klein. Dennis Klein?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Who's the state medical examiner, is that correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. At this point, did you begin examining the area in and around the body that was located at that address?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Describe for the jury what you would have done initially to search that area.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So upon arrival, my partner and I took photographs and video of the area, including the road leading up to and away from the inlet to the cornfield. And after the medical examiner arrived, we all proceeded back into the location where we were told the body was.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Let's talk a bit about the roadway that is adjacent to this particular location. Do you recall that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I do.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm going to show you what states exhibit 25. Do you recognize that? Yes, I do. On the right side of states exhibit 25, this area here to the right, what is that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is the inlet to the field where the body is located.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And this road is 460th, is that correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And this would appear to be facing to the east, would you agree? Yes. States Exhibit 26, which has already been admitted, this is 2478 460th Avenue, would you agree with me?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what direction are we facing here?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is facing west.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And this area here, is that how you gain access to the field? Yes, it is. Between these two posts that are photographed?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. How far from the location of the roadway until you would have entered the corn to find the body that was located?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
From the roadway to the body location?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry, from the roadway to when you would have entered the corn to find the body?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The roadway to the corn was approximately 430 feet.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, and you majored that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
During the interview with the defendant, did you allow him to keep his cell phone?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, we did.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And I'm going to show you state's exhibit number 27. What does this show?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This shows the area in the corn where... we enter to locate the body.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There is what appears to be some sort of yellow tape that is strung on the corn stalks. Would you agree?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What is that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That would be crime scene barrier tape that was placed in that location prior to our arrival.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What's the purpose of putting that up?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To try to keep people out of the scene to indicate that that's a secure location.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was there anyone else other than law enforcement that was at the location that we see here in Exhibit 27?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not during the time that I was there.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, that's what I'm asking. Other than the medical examiner, correct?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And the county medical examiner was there also.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And although I don't have a photo of it, if you would turn around and do a 180-degree turn about face and face the road, what would you see?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We would see the grassy area of the inlet.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So from the roadway to the area that we see on the crime scene tape that's in Exhibit 27, would there have been any corn that would have obstructed your view? No. All right. Is there a little bit of an incline or a hill between the roadway and the area that we see here in Exhibit 27?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you allow him to use his cell phone whenever he wanted to?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. The roadway was not visible from the corn location and the... area where the crime scene tape is was not visible from the road.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. So if you would turn around in this location, could you see the roadway?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Could you see those vehicles that were parked on the roadway?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How would you describe the remoteness of this area that we see here in Exhibit 27?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was quite remote. There was a house to the east, approximately a half mile, and a house to the west, approximately a half mile.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Standing here at the area we see in Exhibit 27 on August 21st of 2018, could you see any houses or any other outbuildings from this location?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. During the first part of the interview, you had mentioned earlier that you talked to him about his family.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, did you then proceed into the area that we see here in Exhibit 27? Yes. All right, generally speaking, where directionally would the body that was presumed to be Molly Tibbetts, where was that located?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was approximately 60 feet south of this location, a little bit to the east.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. All right. We're going to get into some photos that show the body and the corn, but I first want you to describe what you initially saw, okay? So whenever you get into the corn, you locate the body, correct? Yes. All right. Tell us what you observed whenever you saw this area.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The area had a little bit of a clearing. There were bent over corn stalks covering what is the body. And so the bent over corn area allowed for a little bit of an opening in the corn.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you talk to him about his job?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And was there any particular item of clothing that stood out that identified that area as where Molly Tibbetts was located? Yes. What was that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Her bright colored running shoes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You could see those?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Was the rest of her body for the most part covered by corn stalks? Yes, it was. All right. I'm going to show you a photograph, which is exhibit 28, which will show this area, okay? What's on the screen now is exhibit number 28. Do you see that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What did he tell you about his family and his job?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I do.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The area that we see here, was it difficult to photograph without removing the corn stalks?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was it fairly dense in there?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was very dense.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what is this area in the middle of the photo? What does that show?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The pointer is located near the running shoes that we could see.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He told me that he had been here seven years in the United States, four years in Brooklyn, working in the farms that he stated that he was working at. He gave me information about cousins, uncles living in the closed areas.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And the corn stalks that cover the rest of the body, do we see that here in this area where the pointer is located? Yes. And were you able to clear this area a bit so you could further analyze it?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, we removed the corn stalks away from the body and we moved away some of the standing corn so that we could process the body.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So I'm going to show you now what's been introduced and admitted as States Exhibit 29. What does that picture show us?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is an alternate view of the body with the corn stalks on it.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And where the cursor is located, is that the bright colored shoes that had first drawn your attention? Yes. All right. And although you cleared away corn around this area, had you at this time removed any of the dead corn stalks that were covering what was believed to be Mollie Tibbetts?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm going to show you what's been admitted as States Exhibit 30. What are we looking at in States Exhibit 30?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is a view of the body with the corn stalks from her feet showing the view from that location.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And again, these are her shoes that you see? Yes. This photo is taken from the opposite direction that you entered. Would you agree with me?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I would say yes. This is taken basically facing north.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Had any of the corn stalks in this photo been removed at the time that you took the photo?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm going to show you what's been admitted as States Exhibit 31. Where my cursor is at, what does that show us? Those are the running shoes again. States Exhibit 32. What does States Exhibit 32 show us?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is the upper body area of the victim in the cornfield with the corn stalks still in place.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is a bit of a closer photo. Would you agree?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. This area that we see here that my cursor is on, what does that show?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is the left hand of the victim. Okay. The decedent.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And at this time where you see the hand, had any of the corn stalks been removed at this point? Did you and the crime scene team remove the corn stalks from the body that you had located there? Yes, we did. Okay. And when you did that, were you able to get a better look at what was underneath those corn stalks?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, we were.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And before we look at a photo of that, can you just describe what you saw after you removed the corn stalks?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The body was located in a face-up position with the head in a generally northern direction with the arms located at either side of the head and one leg was outstretched and the other was bent.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You had mentioned earlier that this was what you call a rapport building.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And were there, other than the shoes, did you notice any other articles of clothing?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, there appeared to be a pink sports bra around her upper torso and black socks.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Other than the shoes? Correct. Okay, so no shorts at this location?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No headband?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
By the way, did you ever locate a Fitbit or a phone at this location?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, we did not.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you search for one?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, we did.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you were unsuccessful in finding either of those items?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. We're going to look at States Exhibit 33, which shows the body of Molly Tibbetts. Selma put 33 on the screen. You've described what you saw, but let's orient the jury on this photograph, okay? This area that I have the cursor on, what part of the body is that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is this something that you had been trained on with regard to conducting an interview?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Her head was located adjacent to the cursor.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. So this, where the cursor is now, that's her head?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Does it appear to be facing the camera?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And this area here, what is that article of clothing?
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This appears to be a pink sports bra. Okay.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We're going to take a little bit closer look at that. So you can also see her left arm, is that right?
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Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's up above her head? Correct. The area here is Molly Tibbetts' torso? Yes. Correct. And then this area would be where her genitals would be or between her legs, is that right? Yes. That area, does it appear to be more decomposed than the remainder of her body?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What's the purpose of report building?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It does appear to be decomposed. Okay.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And her legs are, the cursor here, is this her right knee? Yes, it is. And here is her left knee. Is that right? Correct. Are her legs spread apart? Is that what that appears to you?
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Getting to know the person that you're talking to.
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Yes, they are.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And her shoes that you saw in the corn, is that these colorful shoes here? Yes. And I don't mean to be too graphic, but did her feet appear to separate from her legs? Or do you know?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't recall.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's fine. Actually, the medical examiner was at that location and recovered the body. Is that right?
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Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you didn't have anything to do with that? No. Okay. All right. So after viewing the area where Molly Tibbetts was located, did you also search the area surrounding her in the corn?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you find any other items of significance? Yes, I did. Were you able to locate Molly Tibbetts' shorts?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I found a pair of black shorts in the cornfield. I understand.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They were only associated with her because they were near her body that you located, correct? Correct. And did you find another article of clothing near where Molly Tibbetts was located?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And during this part of the interview, were you able to get to know the defendant?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, two more items.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. What else did you find?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There was a pink band of fabric. and a striped, what appears to be underpants, underwear.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you diagram this area to give us a better idea of where those items of clothing were located in relation to Molly Tibbetts? Yes, I did. We're going to look at States Exhibit 24. The sketch that we see here, who created that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, in the middle of the sketch, what does that represent?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is a drawing of the body position as we found it in the cornfield, showing the bent over corn stalks.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This area here, what does that represent on your diagram?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's indicated as item four, which was the pink sports bra.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So this would be her head area, is that right?
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Above that location, yes, that was her head.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The area then that we see on the right that appears to have a number attached to it of 15 feet, do you see that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ask him where he was currently working?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What is that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Those are the black shorts located in the cornfield.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what does the 15 feet represent from where to where?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That was approximately from the location of the body south into the cornfield.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Just to make sure we're oriented correctly, in order to get to the shorts that you see here in the diagram, you'd have to walk further into the cornfield.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that right? And as we were facing, going into where Molly Tibbetts was located, it would be more to the left. Is that true?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. The other item that we see here, there's a 24 feet that's represented there. Do you see that? Yes, I do. What item of clothing was found there? That was the pink fabric. What type of pink fabric was that, to your knowledge? Possibly a headband. So that was even further into the corn. Would that be true? Correct. Going in the same southerly direction?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Where was that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, southeastern.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Then moving more on your diagram then to the left, so the area that I just had pointed to you, what exactly was that that you found there?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yarrabee Farms.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So item number eight is indicating the striped fabric that was consistent with underpants.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did he tell you what his jobs were at Yarrabee Farms?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And is there a measurement that you have between where Molly Tibbetts was located and where this particular item was found?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I found that to be approximately 34 feet to the southwest of her location.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, even further into the corn than the other two items that you found that we've already discussed. Is that correct? Correct. And what was this item of clothing, if you know?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It appeared to be striped underpants.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he did. He told me that when he started his employment with Jeremy Farms, he was milking cows. And later he told me that he moved to another position, that it was a lot easier, which was cleaning the sections.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you take photos of those items? Yes. All right. We'll talk about the black shorts first, okay? Yes. All right. This exhibit, which is exhibit 34, I have here labeled black shorts, and it's difficult to see that this is from a distance. Would you agree in exhibit 34? Yes. And as we approach that area that we see that red flag is Exhibit 35. Show a closer view of that.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What do we see here in Exhibit 35?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is the pair of black shorts located southeast of the body with the flag indicating.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Same black shorts that we just saw in Exhibit 34, just closer? Yes. And this item here is what you're talking about. It looks like wadded up, dirty black shorts. Yes. Did you collect those?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, we did.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And those would have been submitted back to the laboratory?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Let's move to another, the area where you had indicated there was a headband further back in the corn when we looked at the diagram. Is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you take a photograph of that area as well? Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brown, let me jump in and stop you there. We'll take our lunch recess at this time.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Before we move on to the next section of the interview, Ms. Romero, overall in this interview and interaction with the defendant, did you take frequent breaks?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Of all of the interactions that you had with him, was it always you and Jeff Fink that were in the room, or were there times when one or the both of you would leave?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There were times that one of the other ones will live. I was all the time with Mr. Rivera.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you provide him food?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did. And the hours of the interview, I believe we gave him approximately eight to nine breaks.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So when would you have left law enforcement? Do you recall?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you provide him a full meal at one point?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, there was a sandwich, and I even asked what beverage was his preference, and I provided that to him.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you allowed him time to eat that meal?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He had approximately 23, 25 minutes to eat.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And again, was he always tracking questions that you were asking him?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he appear sleepy to you at any time?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, it was December of 2018. Ms.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, maybe towards the end. I mean, at the end of the interview, everybody was tired. I was also tired myself.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
After the initial part of the interview, did you then turn to whether or not he knew, the defendant knew or had seen Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you recall how far into the interview with him as far as time that you raised Molly Tibbetts for the first time?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. I do not recall the exact time, but it was approximately an hour, an hour and 45 minutes into the interview.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And do you know if it was before or after he had had something to eat?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Romero want to direct your attention to July of 2018. Did you become aware of an investigation that was being conducted in Poweshiek County involving the disappearance of Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I do not recall.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you then begin to gather facts or attempt to gather facts about the defendant's possible knowledge of Molly Tibbetts' disappearance?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What does he initially say with regard to Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Rivera told me that he had no idea who she was, and she told me that he had never seen her.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you have a photo of Molly Tibbetts that you showed the defendant?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At that time, I pulled out one of the posters, the flyers that had Molly Tibbetts' face. I put it in front of Mr. Rivera and he looked at it and he goes, yes, I have seen them around town. They are all over town. And at that point, he also added that he remembered seeing Molly's boyfriend at one of the local gas stations.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But initially he denied having ever known Molly Tibbetts. Is that true?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is true.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
or having any contact with her.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is true. He stated he kept a copy of the poster flyer and his car.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At all points forward in the interview, Ms. Romero, with the defendant, was your understanding that you were talking about the disappearance of Molly Tibbetts with the defendant?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And when you used the terms her or she, were you referring to Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was it your understanding that the defendant did the same?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Our next witness is Pamela Romero. Can you please state your name for the record?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was there a time then, bringing in Molly Tibbetts to the interview, was there a time during the interview that you then showed him a photo of a vehicle that was taken from surveillance in Brooklyn from the home of Logan Collins?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, so I was provided with three pictures of a black vehicle that was obtained, I was told, by one of the DCI agents from the Logan Collins surveillance video. That photo showed the black Malibu.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And had you received those three photos at one of the breaks that you had taken during the interview?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I was made aware.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
While you were at the Poweshiek County Sheriff's Office?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you show those photos to Christian Bahena-Rivera?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Hang on a second. Sorry. How did you display them to him?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was just going to say that I laid them out in front of him, the three pictures together. I said, can you please look at them for me? He looked at them, and his response was, yes, that is my car.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And were you requested to assist law enforcement in speaking to potential Spanish speaking witnesses?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you even have to ask him if it was his car, or did he just volunteer that?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He volunteered to say that that was his car.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
These were still shots taken from the surveillance camera, is that right?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is what I was told, yes.
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did it have a time and date stamp on it?
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Part 3: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, they did, which I pointed out to Mr. Rivera. He stated that, yes, it was 1948, the time, and July 18, the date.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And if you think it's a coincidence that they waited until the end of the work day to get this guy and bring him back and question him, you got another thing coming. So he worked since 4.30 in the morning. They get him. He voluntarily agrees to go speak. He's compliant. He's a yes man. He talks to Pamela Romero and other officers for 11 hours.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
after working in a dairy, where he works, mind you, 12 hours a day plus, 12 out of every 14 days. He tells them enough to take him to the body. Why'd he do that? Very simple. He was protecting his own. He was protecting his daughter Iris, He was protecting the mother of Iris, or protecting his daughter, Paulina, and the mother, Iris. I'm sorry, I misspoke.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, this 11-hour interrogation was recorded. And you can see from the photographs, those are snapshots from the interview, that there were times where English speakers were in there, okay? Agent Valletta speaks English. You heard Kristen testify the guy standing up was yelling at him in English. Agent Valeta was calling him a liar at the point he's sitting here.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yet, you didn't get the benefit of seeing any of the interview and judging for yourself the credibility Christian Bahena's statement or the authenticity of that interview. Think about that. This case had the unlimited resources of the federal government there. FBI right there. DCI right there. These guys are the best of the best that we have. These guys know how to interview.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They've handled homicide case after homicide case after homicide case. They've interviewed people over and over and over again. And they send in Pamela Romero, a cop who had a total of about two and a half years experience, whose law enforcement training was only the academy, and 16 hours. 16 hours. of interrogation and interviewing training. Folks, you spent 12 in jury selection.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Christian Bahena spent 12 hours working that day. They sent the most inexperienced officer they could into a marathon interrogation with a suspect in a homicide case that had more attention than they've ever known because she was a quote unquote native speaker. Now, why on earth would they not send in one of those agents who really knew how to interview and interrogate, and let Ms.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The analysis is much, much different than that. The analysis is whether this table and the people from this table, the government of this state of Iowa, and the people hired by the government of this state of Iowa, and the resources they've produced have brought forth enough evidence to prove this case and each and every element of the charge beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Romero do the translation. She was fluent, which by the way, her saying she's fluent in Spanish is like one of us saying we're from Iowa, therefore we're fluent in English. There's a lot of people who speak English that aren't fluent, folks. That's just the way it is. Just because you grow up here doesn't mean you're fluent.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We can speak the language, but I would submit you wouldn't be the best at translating. You wouldn't be the best at interpreting. Agent Valletta wanted to sit behind the curtain and control the interview. But the problem is, when they come here to the courtroom and want to produce evidence, they can't because now it's all in Spanish. So now the state can sit at the table
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and sit behind the curtain and produce the evidence by having Ms. Romero testify. And you folks can't judge the evidence. If that evidence in that interview had been with someone who was an English speaker, that evidence would have been played. No doubt about it. No doubt about it. But since it's in Spanish, we only get to hear bits and pieces from what Ms. Romero said.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you're told to rely upon that as a confession. Folks, that's a problem. That's sloppy. And note, when the supposed confed came. Remember, he was in that room for several hours. I think they took him in three, four o'clock, maybe five, doesn't really matter. But what were they insistent on saying? What were they insistent on saying? We're not from immigration. We're not from immigration.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We're not from immigration, right? Because they know that that's the one thing that a Mexican national, an undocumented worker, fears most. And they wanted to put him at ease, and hopefully he would open up, and he didn't. He kept denying, denying, denying, because he knew that there were problems if he came forward. Iris was in danger, Paulina was in danger. So what did they do?
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At 11, 11.30 p.m., they called immigration. When he didn't give them what they wanted, they called immigration. And they put that detainer on him so he couldn't go anywhere. They didn't get what they wanted, so they put the hold on him. So they weren't there for immigration until they were, until he didn't get what they wanted, until he didn't tell them what they wanted.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's 11, 1130 at night, so now he can't go anywhere. And yet they continue. They continue at him. And you saw pictures. He falls asleep. They wear him down. They wear him down. You heard Christian say that they said things to him. Pamela Romero said things to him. Help yourself. Help yourself. She was the good cop. She was the nice lady. Help yourself, Christian. Help yourself, Christian.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Maybe there was something wrong with you, suggesting the blackout. This all makes perfect sense. He wanted them out of their hair. And when finally she says, Christian, think about the family. Think about if you were the parent of that little girl. That's when he relents and tells them just enough to take him to the body and gives them this blackout story. Gives them the story about being angry.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's been spoon-fed to him. Now the bad cops are in the room too. Classic good cop, bad cop. I mean, this is straight off TV. Angel Valetta, right in this space. What is he, a foot and a half? You're a liar. You're a liar. You're a liar. The tall skinny guy in the back is yelling at him using words that Christian can't understand. You can assume what those words are.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sure they're curse words. But, again, they had the full resources of the federal government and they couldn't give you any basis to know what's been said there because it was in Spanish. You have to believe Pamela Romero. And you saw her up here. Her answers were evasive. She was non-responsive in many of her answers. She was obviously biased in her answers.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She couldn't just say yes or no to an answer. She had to try to explain herself and take it in a different direction. She wants to get back into law enforcement, even though she's out of law enforcement. She had never done a homicide interview in her career, ever. What a colossal blunder. What a colossal blunder. They had the ability to videotape it.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is a huge standard, folks. That is a high standard and you cannot forget that and you must keep that in the forefront of your mind. It must be right here all the time. You can't be swayed by emotion. You can't let pictures And emotions of those pictures get to you. You must be logical and you must do your job. Judge Yates has told you that. I'm reminding you of that.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They had the ability to let you hear it if they chose to use someone who spoke English and translated it, and they didn't do it. They didn't do it. Element three and element four you'll find in instructions 17 and 18. And those are malice, forethought and malice, and premeditation.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, I'm going to just kind of veer off just for a second, but let's assume for a minute that you do buy into what Mr. Brown's selling. If you take Mr. Bahena's story, the first one he told police, that version of the events, that he got angry and just started stabbing Mr. Tibbetts, There's absolutely no evidence of premeditation. Did he think or ponder upon a matter before acting? Absolutely not.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Absolutely not. Not a speck of evidence of premeditation which is required for murder in the first degree. Did he deliberate? Did he weigh in one's mind? Did he consider? Did he contemplate or reflect? Absolutely not. That's even if you buy the state's theory. Malice aforethought, a fixed purpose or design to do some physical harm to another, which exists before the act is committed.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, even if you buy what they're selling, they can't prove malice and they can't prove premeditation. That would take you to murder second degree. and maybe voluntary manslaughter. You folks are smart, you folks are bright. I'm not going to take you through those. Instruction number six is you are to decide the facts from the evidence. And again, this goes back to jury selection.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And Mr. Brown asked many of you if you would hold it against him if he didn't have video evidence, if he didn't have video of the crime. And of course there's not video of the crime. Very few places in the country have video surveillance all over the place.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But you should hold against him and hold against the state those times where they had the ability to video things, record things, and not produce it. Absolutely should. Because that's the true way for you to judge the facts. Mr. Brown talked earlier about the unbiased digital evidence of Kevin Horn.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What about the ability to have video evidence that is unbiased and able for you to analyze yourself? And again, I have to come back to Agent Villada and his statement. We had the unlimited resources of the federal government, the FBI, who investigate major federal crimes. Homeland Security, they investigate terrorists. They had drones up in the air.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They had guys from Dayton, Ohio doing these fancy calculations on cell phone towers. Which, by the way, they did one cell phone tower. They provided you evidence of one cell phone tower, Molly Tibbetts. What about his cell phone tower? Most importantly, what about Dalton Jack? Victimology. Victimology. Remember that statement? Let's get to know people who are closest to Molly Tibbetts.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Let's learn her patterns, her habits, what we're doing, what she does, who she associates with, victimology. Where are Dalton Jack's phone records? If he was in Dubuque, he had a cell phone. Where are the tower records? No, let's bring in his boss, who's going to come in and testify for him. Where's the unbiased, non-biased records?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You saw some records with Dalton Jack because I was trying to cross-examine them with him. You saw how that went. You saw the fight with those. We tried to talk about his text messages between him and Jordan Lamb, between him and Molly Tibbetts. We talked about his affairs.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why on earth would you not just put up Dalton Jack's phone records if he truly was in Dubuque, if he truly worked until 7 p.m.? Why not? Unbiased communication. Digital evidence that we couldn't refute if it truly was there. Unlimited resources of the federal government. You don't think this Kevin Horan couldn't have done that? Why didn't they not produce that for you?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You can infer from their lack of producing that evidence that it was damaging to them. And you should. Why not? You heard the testimony of that man, and we'll get to it in a little bit. But they could have, and they chose not to. They could have, and they chose not to. These things are everywhere. These things are the television of the 21st century. Your cell phone, your smart phone.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's unbelievable. You all know it. You sit around your house and you talk about recipes. You talk about buying a new boat. You talk about buying a gift for someone and next thing you know you're on your smartphone looking up the internet and there's something pops up that you talked about. It's scary. You can order something off Amazon. You can go to Hy-Vee.com.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You can go to Walmart.com and you can know that the item you purchased is off the shelf or the item's been shipped and you can track it in real time. You can know where it is, anywhere in this country, like that, okay? But the state cannot produce for you a video of Christian Bahena from the sheriff's office to Molly Tibbetts' body.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not talking at you about it. I'm just cautioning you because that's what justice is. Justice is have they done their job and proven Christian Bahena guilty. beyond a reasonable doubt. Have they proven that man, that young man there, is he a murderer? Have all the elements of murder in the first degree of that young man in the middle been proven?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You would think that this man says, I'll take you there, I'll take you there, right? That good policing, that all these years of experience, the best that the state of Iowa has with special agents, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Division of Homeland Security are here. They're all carrying these at least and he gets out of the car supposedly.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sure it's a patrol car that has at least a, you know, a recording camera on it for when someone gets pulled over or something that they don't at least take a moment to record him going to the edge of the corn and pointing out the body so you can view for yourself what he's doing? They don't have that. Why not? Let me tell you why not.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because they had nothing for four weeks and they were excited and they cut corners and they rushed to judgment. That's exactly why. They wanted to close this case and they wanted to close this case now. Just like when out at the scene they had Christian in a car,
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And again, if you want to believe his confession, which is now at, what is it, 6 o'clock the next morning after he was taken from his workplace, and he said, supposedly, according to Pamela Romero, I brought you here, didn't I? Question mark. That must mean I did it. Question mark.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brown can say, can fight me on the punctuation, can fight me on whether or not it was one of those things where he's throwing his hands up saying, I brought you here, didn't I? or whether he said, I brought you here, didn't I? You know, sarcasm, vocal inflection, context, all that stuff matters when you are talking to someone.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You can't just say that, well, Pamela Romero said, he said, I brought you here, didn't I? After 24 hours of being awake, they didn't have a recording to show you, didn't have, after they have the body now, okay, they have the body, they have Molly's body, At that point, at least, you'd think there's time out.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Let's get somebody on this case now who really knows what they're doing and do a proper interview. And let's translate it. Let's get the case agent, Valletta, on this and do a proper interview because we want to wrap this up tight. But yet, they didn't do it. They wanted to just close the book. The state seems to want you to just take their word for it. Take Pamela Romero's word for it.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Therefore, he's guilty. You've got to believe everything she said. You've got to believe that statement he made was absolutely credible without any corroboration whatsoever to what she said. This is a murder case. A murder case of Molly Tibbetts. Put it in context. What was going on there? Who was all there? Why did they cut the corners that they cut? Remember this instruction.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We start talking about what witnesses you can believe. inconsistent statements, their appearance, their conduct, what interest they have in the trial, what's their memory. That tells you who you can believe and who you can't believe. You saw Christian Bahena's testimony. He sat there yesterday and he gave you his version of the events. Mr. Brown suggests that those versions of the events were
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
as a result of knowing what the evidence was and having time to rehearse them. And he says it makes no sense. It makes every bit as much sense as the state's theory that an undocumented immigrant runs up alongside Molly Tibbetts on a highway in broad daylight, gets angry, and decides to stab her. Absolutely does. Let's talk about the video evidence, and here there's a mistake here.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Like I said, Maui Tibbets deserves justice, but so does Christian Bahena. He deserves justice, and your job is to find the truth, judge the facts, and do justice. Now let's set the stage. It's important that you know all the facts, okay? It's important that you understand where we were in July 2018. A lot of time has passed since July 2018. We've lived through a pandemic.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The jogger was not seen at 8.07. She was seen at 7.45, okay? So 7.45, she's running north. I think it's on Boundary Street in the intersection of East Des Moines Street. The Malibu went by heading east out of town or east by Logan Collins' house at 8.07 p.m. Agent Reeson said it was three minutes off on his cell phone, so it's about 8, 10 p.m. Horan's testimony is that Ms.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Tibbetts would have been traveling south and east at 8, 20 p.m. So... I'm going to object. That's not the evidence.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, Mr. Freeze has pointed out that there is something inaccurate on there. Talking about... Well, can we approach?
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah. Go ahead and continue, Mr. Freeze.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The video evidence, you have to put together a time frame, and you have to ask yourself if this crime could have been committed by 5'7", 125-pound Christian Bahena. In that short time frame, could he have overpowered this woman? Could he have stabbed her nine times, tossed her in the trunk, and then headed south? That makes no sense. Let's look at the facts and apply your common sense.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Christian Bahena works 12 hours a day. 12 out of every 14 days. He averages 75 hours a week. 75 hours a week. The other days, the other two days out of every two weeks, he sees his kid. He has a date the next day. You heard his aunt talk about that. You really want to believe that Christian Bahena, the man you saw on the stand,
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yesterday, the undocumented immigrant who has spent years working in this country, working hard to remain undetected, going to town only when necessary, working under an Anglo name, John Budd, having no history of law enforcement contact, no history of violence, is brazen enough to pick up a woman, abduct her and maybe kill her, in a span of 10 to 20 minutes. Folks, this was planned.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not by him, by someone else. Let's talk about the DNA evidence. DNA evidence is not helpful to the state. Absolutely not. Now understand the DNA evidence is we expect Mr. Bahena's DNA to be in his trunk, right? We would expect that, especially if he was involved with killing Molly Tibbetts. Have they presented you any of Mr. Bahena's DNA from that trunk? No. Not one speck. We expect... Ms.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Tibbetts' DNA to be an honored person. Only Ms. Tibbetts and Christian's DNA was submitted to the lab. Now, what the problem is with the DNA is exactly what the reports tell us and then as explained by Dr. Spence. And that is, first of all, remember the testimony was that the investigators and the lab didn't test the trunk liners until a year later at Mr. Brown's request.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So investigators didn't deem it even relevant to try to find someone else's blood, Molly's blood, inside the trunk. They had it on the trunk liner, on the gasket, that little piece of blood you saw, but not to see if she was actually, her DNA was in the trunk. We're glad that Mr. Brown asked for that because it gave us some very compelling findings. Okay?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, the DNA that was found on the trunk liner, okay, there's Item 59-3, and that's a really small, less than a dime-sized cutting that Tara Scott took, okay, small. It had 10 accounted-for alleles, those little identifying markers that Dr. Spence talked about, that were not from Christian Bahena or Ms. Tibbetts. They came from an unknown male beyond the major presence of Ms.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Tibbetts, so an unknown male was there, and we know that from Ms. Scott herself, it was a mixture of three people. Three people. And what's important is Ms. Tibbetts' DNA is on that very small spot mixed in with three people, okay? Right there in that very small spot. Item 60.1, there were 14 unaccounted for alleles, not Ms. Tibbetts and not Christian. 61.1, five unaccounted for alleles.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can't tell if it's male or female. Basically what it tells us is there's other people's DNA in that trunk mixed with Molly Tibbetts in those very small portions. Not somewhere else in the trunk, but right where Molly Tibbetts' body was, in the exact spot. Why is that important? Because we have no other DNA to exclude anyone, folks. Again, victimology.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Some of us have lived through tornadoes, derechoes, just a lot of time has passed. But this case is much, much different than any case I would submit that you have ever heard. Within a couple days of Molly's disappearance, the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation is on scene. Agent Trent Villita is there. and the investigation begins.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why on earth would you not take Dalton Jack's DNA? Remember that? Crime scene team come into 622 West Des Moines Street, they take a Dr. Pepper can, they take an Arizona tea can, and they swab everybody in Molly's family for DNA. Of course Molly's DNA is gonna be on that can. Why were they even in that bedroom? They were thinking that maybe she was in that bedroom with someone else.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They wanted to get her DNA. Of course her DNA was going to be on that can. Why would they need to know that? Was she going to abduct herself? They were in that room to see if someone else was in that room, yet they did nothing to get DNA to exclude people. That's the funny thing about DNA. It doesn't need to point the finger at anyone, but it can exclude people.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would that DNA have excluded Dalton Jack maybe? Maybe, but we don't know. Because we cut that corner. We just wrote him off right away. July 25th, the testimony was that he was cleared. But then on July 27th, they interviewed him again, and he admitted that he lied. He had withheld information. And he told you here on the stand, he didn't deem that him having an affair on Molly was pertinent.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He didn't think it was relevant to the case. Well, the agent sure did. That's why he was called back to talk about it. But they didn't test anybody's DNA other than Christian and the Tibbetts family and all the Hispanics at Yarrabee Farms. They did a canvass of the entire town and didn't test anyone else's DNA. No one else's. Why would you not do that? So you can at least exclude people.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They had the resources of the federal government there, folks. DNA is an exclusion tool. It acts like a funnel. It helps us figure out who couldn't do it as well. Also recall that there were no fingerprints in that trunk. Christian Bahena's fingerprints were excluded from being in that trunk. Someone else's fingerprints were in that trunk.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And in fact, the fingerprint cards that they were sent in were done so sloppily that they couldn't compare the other fingerprints against it. And they didn't ask to do any more. Remember, Tara Scott's report and a Young's report were uploaded and made available to Agent Vilda. He had him right there at his disposal. He could have done more investigation anytime he wanted. He didn't. He didn't.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They didn't get you any more digital evidence. They didn't get you any video. They didn't get you any DNA, any more fingerprints. They just say, believe us. I mean, and the testimony yesterday. You know, the DCI agents on there after the FBI says, hey, go get some of this blood from 2384 460th Avenue, a mile from where Molly is found. And they get it, and they don't test that either.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Even though the FBI says do it, Agent Villida doesn't do that. And that was days and days and weeks before Molly was found. Don't do that either. That brings us to Dalton Jack. Ask yourself this question. Why did the state even call Dalton Jack as a witness? Think about that. What do you have to add? He wasn't in town during the abduction. He didn't know who committed any of the elements.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He wasn't here. That's what they're saying. He was in Dubuque. He had nothing to add. He wasn't a witness. Why? What did he know, really? They knew he was a problem. They knew from the jump that this guy was a problem. That's why they investigated him and questioned him after they cleared him. That's why they called his boss today, because they heard his testimony. Remember that jury instruction.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Shortly thereafter, the Federal Bureau of Investigation is on scene. A number of local law enforcement agencies are on scene. In Brooklyn, Iowa, a town of 1,400 people, Homeland Security shows up in Brooklyn, Iowa, for a missing 20-year-old girl. Use your common sense. Use your experience. When's the last time something like that has happened? It was a circus in Brooklyn, Iowa.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Whether a witness has made inconsistent statements. Remember Mr. Jack didn't even want to be here. Didn't want to be here for the love of his life to make sure she had justice. What kind of person is that? Well, it's the same kind of person that would have an affair on the love of his life while he was planning on getting engaged to her.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's the same kind of person that would portray their relationship as rosy to the public while it's rocky and private. It's the same kind of person who was losing control of Molly. She was going to fly. She was outgrowing this man. He was angry. He has a history of being a fighter, and they knew he was a problem. All Dalton Jack had to add was his testimony that he did not do this.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And his alibi that the state gave you was his inconsistent statements. No video cameras from the hotel. Not a single receipt that shows that he was at Walmart or got gas or went to the gas station. They got any beer. Nothing, no time cards, cell phone towers, we talked about those. We know where Ms. Tibbetts was, but we don't know where Dalton was, easily found.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ulysses Felix, you heard that name come up a number of times. Ulysses Felix knew both Mr. Bahena and he knew Dalton Jack, Iris Gamboa's cousin. He knew Miss Tibbetts. He knew the defendant and bid to his house over at night. That's the connection. Ulysses Felix is the same one who moved in with the Tibbetts family after his parents took off. That's how people knew where to find this guy.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We don't dispute Kevin Horn's testimony, not at all. We just want to know why it wasn't done for Dalton Jack. This, we think, is a big point. Dalton Jack texts Ms. Tibbus at 8.18 p.m., says, my dad, a straight-up won't work. We think at 8.28 p.m., within 10 minutes, Ms. Tibbus is in the trunk and driving at a high speed away from Brooklyn.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Within 10 minutes, within 10 minutes of her being abducted, with her being killed. He mysteriously sends a text that says, my data straight up won't work. It won't work. And 10 minutes later, she's in a trunk going at a high rate of speed away from Brooklyn, Iowa. Where was that text sent from? Where's the tower information on that? That's a suspicious text if I've ever seen one, folks.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It sounds like someone trying to cover his tracks. But believe his boss. Don't believe unbiased evidence. Remember his testimony that Jack still can't figure out what he was doing that night. We asked him, do you recall telling the agents that you showered that night and washed brush hour one in your room? He said, I'm sorry, Jack. I'm going to object. This transcript is not evidence.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained, Mr. Freese. Well, we asked him, did you have anger problems? He answered, I did in high school. Do you like to fight? He said, yes. We asked him, do you recall telling agents on July 18th you were in your room showering and watching Rush Hour One? He said, is that the night of the 18th? He said, question, yes. He said, yes, I do.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But then he come to court and said your testimony today is you were outside drinking beers with the boys. Answer, yes. Question I asked him, so you told the officers on the 27th of July a different story, right? I suppose so. This guy gave different story after different story. I asked him, who's that woman you had an affair with? Her name was Jordan Lamb.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What'd you tell the officers the reason you withheld that information? I didn't deem it necessary. I didn't think it was pertinent to the case. I went on to ask him, you didn't want Molly moving in with friends. You wanted her moving in with you. I was upset that she went back on the plan that I had been going with for the last year and a half after that. You were angry, I asked.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Media was everywhere. You heard Agent Villa talk about the media that was there. You heard him talk about this reward that was just skyrocketing. That doesn't happen here in Iowa. Your experience tells you that. Your common sense tells you that. For a missing 20-year-old jogger, we didn't even know that she was dead yet. We didn't know she was picked up off Interstate 80 and abducted.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He said, correct. Finally, when I asked him about his temper, I said, it was short-fused, wasn't it, Mr. Jack? And he said, yes. Liked the fight? Yes. Ron Pexa. What do we do with Ron Pexa? Ron Pexa's address is 2410 460th Avenue, less than a half a mile where the body was found. His property is adjacent to the property where Molly was discovered. Jamie Slife came in.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and told her truth about who this man was. You needed to hear what she had to say because law enforcement would not. She called in the tip line, called the sheriff directly, no one would listen to her. Now did Ron Pexa have anything to do with the demise of Molly Tibbetts? We don't know. But what we do know is that no one investigated him. There were separate tips.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Someone called in, called him a maniac. Someone said he had a torture room. That didn't come from Jamie's life. But what Trent Villa to do with that? You know, we would walk around and we talked to him a little bit. Didn't document it in a report. Didn't document it in video or audio recording. It's because he was taking care of his own. Ron Pexa is a cop.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Christian Bahena, in his statement, was taking care of his own. He was protecting his daughter and his daughter's mother. But let's talk about 460th Avenue. 460th Avenue, I would submit to you, was not just some random place. Ron Peck's house is on there. Now whether or not he had anything to do with it, we don't know.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What we do know is that people were calling him with tips that he was some sort of sexual deviant. It was known. What we also know is that officers met with Darien Davis, who was mowing that cemetery on 460th Street. We know that Darien Davis associates with Jackson Eichhorn.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The testimony was that Jackson Eichhorn was in the cemetery in Brooklyn, and one of his stories was he was helping Darien Davis mow at the time Molly Tibbets was jogging that night. Ironic. that this guy happens to be mowing two different cemeteries, both where Molly Tibbets is associated? I don't think so.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not saying Mr. Davis has anything to do with it, but people knew those two cemeteries were connected. 460th Avenue is not a coincidence. The 2384, again, less than a mile from where Molly was found, four buckle swabs just on the other side. of Ron Peck's house were taken by Agent Bublitz at the FBI direction and never tested.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The route taken by Christian Bahena after Molly was abducted was straight down 200th Street, hard left, and then down through this 430-foot driveway and through long grass to this cornfield. This man had no idea where he was going. That route was direct. Five or six miles south, two and a half miles east, then 110 yards in. That is not coincidence. He would have no idea where this was.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He was directed to go there. We think Kristen's confession, or his statement, wasn't accurate. It was false. You see here, he fell asleep three different times. Once more, he's getting pressed. False sleep again. getting pressed after hours and hours. It was an 11-hour interrogation. He was isolated from his family. He was driven to the sheriff's office and not allowed to bring his own vehicle.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Police indicated that confessing might lead to a more lenient sentence. Help yourself, Christian. Police firmly stated... I didn't object.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Fries, at this time, you may give your closing on behalf of Mr. Behina.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We didn't know anything about that. But like Agent Villita said, within five to seven days, he had the, quote, unlimited resources of the federal government with the FBI. Think about that. Think about that. That is unprecedented. Unprecedented. Now, why do I tell you that? I tell you that because I want to harken back to Mr. Claver's opening statement.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's not the evidence. I don't believe there's been anybody testifying to that. The client did, Your Honor. Overruled. Go ahead. Proceed, Mr. Chris.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Our client said very clearly... that they said, help yourself. Police firmly stated that the evidence against Christian was overwhelming, therefore resistance was futile. He was deliberately picked up at the end of the day and deliberately interrogated during the time where he would have been sleeping. They lied to him. They employed trickery or dishonesty.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They said, we're not here from immigration, and they called immigration. They suggested psychological excuses for the offense. That's where the blackout comes. They took steps to enhance their authority while interrogating the suspect. That's where Trent Valetta gets right in his face. They put three people in his space.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They made Christian think that one or more interrogators were Christian's friends and were trying to help him or her. Or him in this case. Character evidence. You heard a lot of people talking about Christian Bahena. His cousin, Wadi Makar, he paid it on time. First of the month. People said he was not a violent person. This would not be like him. He didn't want to be detected.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He just wanted to take care of his family, take care of his daughter, work hard. This makes no sense. Every one of those people who testified were credible, they were believable, and buttressed everything this man said in his credible testimony. If the evidence of such good character as the non-violence is good enough,
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
together with all the other evidence to raise a reasonable doubt as to his guilt, he must be acquitted. If these people's testimony is that believable, and I submit it is, you must acquit him when you couple that with their lack of evidence. Folks, that's the verdict form you're going to get. The judge has instructed you on how to deliberate and what your verdict must be.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We acknowledge that. We sympathize with her family. We offer empathy to them. This young lady was on her way to being someone special. No doubt about it. Absolutely no doubt about it. The loss of Molly Tibbetts is tragic. Absolutely tragic. And the reason I mentioned that. It's because the loss of someone like that can evoke a lot of emotion. And it has evoked emotion.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We submit it should be not guilty. So remember, That man right there is the one you have to judge. That man. The father, the son, the man who come here to make a better life for those around him. He's not a monster. You saw him testify. You saw him credibly testify. This case was closed. This case is police logic 101, okay? Police logic 101 is opposite of the analysis that you have to do
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The analysis you have to do is you take all the evidence that you've heard and you boil it down and you determine if that evidence produces guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. That's not what the police did. What the police did is they had four weeks of nothing and then they picked this man.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And who better to pick than an undocumented immigrant who doesn't speak the language, who has nobody here to speak of, to help him out. And then you cherry pick the facts that fit your theory and you close the case. Case closed, but the case is not solved. Folks, there is serious doubt in this case. Serious doubt.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Christian Bahena Rivera has not had the case against him proven beyond a reasonable doubt. And the only verdict that you can come up with under these facts, and what you heard right there is not guilty. Thank you.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brown, on behalf of the state of Iowa, you may give your rebuttal. Can we approach, please? Yes. You may proceed.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I know we're into the lunch hour, so I'm not going to try to take a lot of time, but there are a few things I have to touch on that relates to issues that were raised here by Mr. Freeze in his closing. So the first thing I want to do is talk about an investigation. There was an allegation here that there was a pressure to close the case.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In his opening statement, he said that the DCI comes in town and they kick off an extensive investigation. He tells you the DCI is in town, the FBI is in town, Homeland Security is in town, and every lead came up empty after what he called exhaustive and intensive investigations. Four weeks, you heard they were canvassing, they were searching everywhere. You saw the map with all the red dots.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The officers that worked this case, Agent Valletta, other agents from the DCI that worked it, worked this case, worked every angle, worked every lead. There's pressure to close any case whenever they have somebody, particularly like Molly Tibbetts or any other person who's been the victim of a violent crime. But the pressure to close the case doesn't mean they go out and create their own evidence.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If that were true, why wouldn't they just go ahead and do that right at the beginning? Go point the finger at somebody else. Do something. Create something. Plant something. That's not what they did. They go and chase the leads. They look at Molly's inner circle. They look at Dalton. They look at people who know her. They search 622 West Des Moines.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They're looking for signs of violence, signs of breaking and entering, things of that nature. They don't find it. They're trying to shake this tree as hard as they can to see if there's any leads that fall, and there's not. Until when? Until they get the video. That's the lead that breaks this case. They follow it. They find the defendant. They bring him in. He makes the admissions he makes.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The blood is in the trunk. What are the officers supposed to do? Start looking at Ron Pexa? Start going out and just checking other people to see if maybe, you know, they had something to say about it? I mean, come on.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The officers in this case, the agents in this case, the deputy sheriffs, the FBI agents, all the people who were involved followed the evidence, and that's what we're asking you to do. The defendant was not targeted. That's a word that Mr. Freeze used. The defendant here was not targeted, all right? The evidence led officers to him. The video evidence led officers to Christian Bahena-Rivera.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They didn't target him. He targeted himself. by becoming involved in this. No knife. I think he's mentioning this from 622 West Des Moines in the weapons. It's not a crime scene. And by the way, there's no evidence that Blake Jack or Dalton Jack are involved. Goodness, they ran Dalton Jack to the ground in this case. They interviewed him multiple times. They looked at him, right?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They found out what his history was, that he'd had this brief fling with another girl named Jordan. And by the way, when you're 18 years old, it's not like he's, I've been married 32 years and I got three kids, okay? That'd be a lot different, let me tell you, okay? But he's a kid, right? What do you do if you're not getting along with your girlfriend? You break up with her, right?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You don't take her out in the country and stab her to death. Does that make sense to you? Goodness. The primary crime scene, we don't know. Well, guess who had control of that? This guy. All right, who's got control of the Malibu for almost four-plus weeks? The defendant, right? He's got control of Molly Tibbetts. He controls where she went. He controls where her body got dumped.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He controls what the physical evidence is in his trunk. He does. The reason why we don't have whatever a primary crime scene is, is because of the defendant. You have to factor that in. Motive.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
not angry are you serious he told us he was angry the words came from his mouth the defendant is a yes man not yesterday he wasn't he gave you a whole new story mr freeze touched on that about iris gamboa about his daughter about all of those things we'll talk about that here in just a second He's not a yes man yesterday. That's for sure. So tell law enforcement then about these other two men.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right? So you're in a place where you can be protected. So tell them. I mean, you have multiple officers at the Poweshiek County Sheriff's Office. You're probably one of the most secure places in the county. You know, he's there with law enforcement. He could ask for help. All he has to say is, okay, listen, guys, I know, I think I know what happened.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and they had nothing, okay? Imagine the pressure to close this case. Imagine the pressure to put this case to bed, because that's the context in which this arrest and this charge happened. Every lead, Mr. Claver said in his opening, came up empty. Absolutely right. Some of the investigation was sloppy, but it really got sloppy when Christian Bahena-Rivera got targeted because folks
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There's these other two guys, these other masked men that are covered that were in my house, right? I don't really know who they are. I'm scared for my daughter. I'm scared for Iris. Can you please help me? If you help me, if you get them here, I'll tell you what I know. But he didn't do that. You know why? Because it didn't happen. Why use Pamela Romero?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Let me tell you what the flip side of this would be. So let's say officers went in, like the picture that you saw, with Agent Valletta and the FBI agent. Neither speaks Spanish. Or we have somebody else. There was a mention of Jeff Fink, who was an officer from Iowa City who's not a native speaker. So let's say we try, you know, Officer Romero, you're just not experienced enough, okay?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
By the way, you saw her testify. She's impressive. young woman, right? I mean, she did a phenomenal job in recounting what the defendant said. The whole interview is in Spanish, but why not take advantage of a native speaker? Why not do that? Then we have a clean conversation. It's not going through an interpreter. You know, there's none of that. You have it.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And she can then come out and say, this is what he said. That's why we didn't show you the video. It's in Spanish. Doesn't that make sense? If we had used Officer Fink or if we had used Agent Valletta, then it would be, oh, hey, wait a second. Didn't they have a native speaker right there? Why not use Officer Romero? We know she's not experienced, but why not use her? The flip would just be true.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But the officers chose to use the native speaker that knew Spanish, that was her first language, so she could understand what the defendant was was telling her and relay that to investigators. You know, he wasn't so worn down that he couldn't lead them to Molly Tibbetts. That's true. Yeah, he does. They give him rest, by the way.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I think Officer Romero talks about nine times that they took breaks during the day. So it's not like an 11-hour interview where he's got somebody in his grill the whole night. I mean, he's sitting there at a table. He does get a chance to take a break. He gets a chance to eat. They're good to him in that sense.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They are asking him hard questions, which I would hope officers would do under these circumstances. Dalton Jack, listen, Dalton Jack was in Dubuque, okay? He was working there actually the day before. I think he was in Iowa County working. That's what his boss said this morning. But Dalton Jack is in Dubuque. You know, phone records, people put in there.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
By the way, if he's off at 7, right, how's he going to get back?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
to do anything and he's going to have to what take Christian Rivera's car if somebody has no idea and what go and chase down Molly where he doesn't know where she is and what he's going to teleport himself back here in you know less than an hour I mean it's over a two-hour drive from where he was working to here plus he had no reason no reason if the defendant's DNA is in his trunk the response is of course it is
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If we would have found Christian Rivera's DNA in the trunk, of course it is. It's his car. It's a push. It's like the fingerprints that they talked about a little bit later. People can touch things and fingerprints can be there. It was on items that were in the trunk. The fingerprint expert doesn't know where they come from, doesn't know how they got there.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They're not associated other than being in the trunk. They could also be Molly Tibbetts', by the way. Remember, hers are so destroyed that because she was decomposed. And then, so it means nothing. All these things that Mr. Freeze brings up have to matter, right?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He's poking holes, punching at our case, telling you these things, but whenever you sit back there, if you evaluate them, they have to matter. Ron Pexa is 6'7". He doesn't describe the men in his house that tall. Totally inconsistent with that. Ulysses Felix, where is he?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There's no evidence that he's associated with Ron Pex or Dalton Jack or anybody else that they're throwing stones at over here with regard to who may be involved. There is no false confession, for goodness sakes. If the defendant falsely confesses, how does he take them to Molly Tibbetts? He knows where she's at.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's the one piece of evidence in this case, the one circumstance that completely cuts that argument down to the ground. So motive. There was another motive here, a sexual one that we know about, that we can look at. This is the document that shows the crime scene diagram. Molly Tibbetts' body, if you recall, her legs were spread apart and her knees were up.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What happened here was they closed a case. They didn't solve a case. To coin a phrase from Agent Villita, in his mind, Christian Bahena cleared Rod and Pexa. I would expand on that. In his mind, Christian Bahena closed the case. Good enough for them. Let's close the case, shut the book, get everybody out of here, and we're done. But they didn't solve the case.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and her underwear and her shorts were off. They were in a different spot. Her jogging bra is pushed up around her neck, all right? The defendant says, that he left her with her clothes on. That is clearly not true. The defendant says, before we get to that, he also says in his interview that she is hot or attractive.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The way that it was interpreted by Romero was that Molly Tibbetts, that he said that she was hot. That's why he was encountering her because he found her attractive. That's why he chased her down. That's why he stopped on the road, right? He saw a pretty girl and it drew his attention.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Molly is found with no shorts or underwear, her jogging bra like I said is pushed up around her neck and her legs are spread apart. That would all suggest a sexual motive here. Guess who does not have a sexual motive? Dalton Jack or anyone else that's been raised here by the defense. The defendant
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
wanted to encounter Molly Tibbetts by his own admission because he said that she was hot or attractive. And we have physical evidence at the scene that would suggest that there is also a sexual motive here that corroborates the defendant's involvement. She was found in that condition under the corn stalks and he testified that she was clothed.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He kept, that's what he said, but we know that's not true. Look at the corn stalks. They're not disturbed. Look at it. There they are. The corn stalks don't appear to have been disturbed. The testimony, his testimony cannot be true based upon the evidence near Molly.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Which means the sexual motive is there, that her clothes were off, that he took them off, that he was there by his own admission, and we have physical evidence at the scene of the clothes being off and the corn stalks not being disturbed. It all provides another reason, which excludes other people. So why consider it Again, I've mentioned this already. Why consider a sexual motive here?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's another circumstance that removes Dalton Jack, who they pointed the finger at repeatedly in this case, or anyone associated with him. It also excludes the two phantom men story. By the defendant's own admission, there was no sexual motive there. There was no evidence of that. So these two phantom men that show up at his apartment that he can't identify, Exclude it, right?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I mean, it supports it. It supports the sexual motive. These guys didn't have that. Dalton Jack didn't have that. It's consistent with the defendant's statement to Pamela Romero that he found her attractive, that he had found her hot. That's why he encountered her on the roadside. All right, the defendant's testimony here is unbelievable.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Freeze has touched on some of this with regard to Iris Gamboa, to the daughter. Let's look at that. Why would he create a new story? Okay, why would he do that? He had the opportunity, by the way, to sit here in this case, to view the evidence, to think about the evidence. He knows DNA puts him or puts Molly in the trunk of his vehicle. He now knows that.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He did not know that at the time of the interview with Pamela Romero. He now knows multiple videos place him near Molly within seconds of running through the area. whenever she was on boundary. We see his car within about 25 or 30 seconds after that. He knows after setting through all this evidence, he's under a pretty big rock, right? And he's got to come up with something else.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He's got to come up with a story to describe or explain away why he led the officers to the body, right? So what's he come up with? What's the context of this? He's now seen all the evidence against him. His statement with Romero ended with him charged with murder.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They didn't get enough evidence to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt. Mr. Claver, in his opening statement, also told you that they found a video of the Malibu. That was good police work. That was good police work. We're not going to suggest to you that Christian Bahena-Rivera's Malibu was on that video. That was him. He testified to that. You saw him on the stand.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
right he he tried to give them a story he told them what happened right which is probably is a lot closer to the truth but now he knows that got him charged he finds out later as mr freeze pointed out that the dna didn't come in until later that it is all that molly's blood is in the trunk he has had access to all the evidence in this case he's had had access to the video he knows his car puts him here there
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So he knows all that. That's the context here that we're dealing with. The defendant's testimony that two men killed Molly is totally unsupported by any other evidence in the case. Totally. He says that the two men that showed up at his house or his trailer are covered head to toe. He can't ID them, right? He covers them completely. This is the middle of July, right?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And he says they're in sweaters and pants with stocking hats that cover their face. He can't identify them, right? Is that believable? The other thing that might identify these men is the vehicle that they were driving. He never puts them in a car. They just randomly select him out of thin air and they appear out of nowhere to select him as the person And then what?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They hang out at the trailer for a while. He's not real specific about that. And then not only do they appear out of nowhere, then they vanish into thin air once they get out to the field. and he can't identify them. It's simply not believable. These phantom men, think about this, leave the only eyewitness to a murder.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They are attacking Molly Tibbetts on the road, that's what he said to you, whenever he testified, and they stabbed her and they put her in the trunk. Why not kill him? Why not take him out? There's no connection between these two. They leave the only eyewitness with a vehicle, according to him. They leave these phantom men, leave him with a cell phone. That's what he said. Actually, two.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I think he says Molly's cell phone is in the trunk as well. So they just vanish out of thin air, walk away in a cornfield after killing this young woman, and they leave him with transportation and a cell phone. That makes no sense at all. Why would they do that? Why would they even involve him? Why not just take out Christian Bahena Rivera right there with Molly? They've got a gun.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They've got a knife. Take him out. Pile his body into the cornfield. Why not do that? Why do they need him in the first place? It makes no sense. He's not thinking about that. You know why it doesn't make sense? Because it's not true. It's not true. He conveniently threw us in the name Jack. Did you catch that yesterday, whenever he was testifying?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One of the guys, I think, is in the back seat, and one of the guys says, come on, Jack. So the one guy that they're pointing the finger at, the chief one, happens to have that last name, he throws that in. You've got to ask yourself if that makes any sense at all, or is he just trying to point the finger at Dalton Jack to say that's who it was that was there and that took Molly on the roadside.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They have spent parts of two days in this trial trying to identify Dalton Jack as the person with the motive and the opportunity to kill Molly. Dalton Jack is alibied, ladies and gentlemen. He did not do this. He didn't. He's working in Dubuque. So now his boss is going to come in here and make up records and not be truthful with you? For what? Why would he do that? Why?
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Or that was him driving that car. We'll give you that. Absolutely was him. He said...
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I mean, Dalton Jack is alibi. He's working. He's working on a bridge. He got off at 7. He went back to the motel. He grew up with his co-workers. Dalton Jack is alibi. Dalton Jack did not do this. If other men...
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
killed molly which is what the defense has put on here what purpose would it serve then to include the following statements here we've already talked about this in my first close but what would it serve to include the following in these statements to the police that molly had rebuked him that molly had you didn't want anything to do with him that molly had threatened to call the police and that he was angry how does that fit in with the what he claims is the real narrative
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
that miss tibbett's blood was in christian's malibu in the trunk that's true too we aren't going to dispute that at all he didn't mention to you that there was a mixture of blood in the trunk and they talked about christian's quote-unquote admissions or what mr brown called a confession which we wholeheartedly disagree with what is missing In this case, that's really what you got to look at.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
that these two unknown men that were masked grabbed her and made him take her to the cornfield. It doesn't fit. There's no reason to offer it. He's trying to offer a reason to the officers. as to why that happened. These statements only fit with nobody else present and with what the evidence was whenever he testified first that there were not two other men in the car and that he acted alone.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There is no evidence here that he told Iris Gamboa anything about a threat. He testified here. The reason why he didn't tell the officers about the two men that came to his trailer that he can't identify is because They had threatened Iris, and they had threatened his daughter. Iris Gamboa testified. Did you hear any testimony from her? They just called by the defense.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Any testimony from her that, oh yeah, he told me? He told me what happened? He was fearful for my safety? He was fearful for our daughter's safety? He didn't say a word about it. There's no evidence in this case that he took any steps to protect his child or Iris. Iris never testified about a threat. So ask yourself, why? My suggestion is it didn't happen. There was no threat.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There were no two men. He's made these men up. He's trying to get out from underneath that very big rock. He had a chance in this case to tell the police about the two men. He chose not to do that, if you're taking any of his statements as true that he testified to yesterday. The sheriff's office is a well-protected place. He had a chance to tell the officers that.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He was even encouraged multiple times by Officer Romero. Is there more? Is there more? She keeps coming back to him. He has plenty of opportunity to do it and he chooses not to do that. Why did he choose not to do that? He claims to protect his daughter and his girlfriend who he had his daughter with. The best place to get that protection would be from the police and he didn't do it.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You know why he didn't do it? Because it did not happen that way.
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
that's what it proves all right these are the elements of murder in the first degree each of these elements has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt all of the evidence here points to one person and that is the defendant christian bahena rivera no one else had a reason to kill molly tibbets his reason is not a good one like i said before
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When would it ever be a good idea or you would ever, ever have a good reason to kill somebody in this way? But that's what happened. And he told us that's what happened. He was angry. He was rejected. And he got angry at her and he killed her. That's what cost Molly Tibbetts her life. The video, the confession, and the physical evidence in this case tell the story. There should be no...
Crimeatorium
Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
reasonable doubt in your mind. Looking at all this evidence, you must be firmly convinced. I would encourage you to use your common sense. Look at this case. Judge it with your backgrounds. Look at it. Evaluate it. We welcome that. Use your common sense whenever you look at this and at the end of the day, right, at the end of all of that, ask yourself, are you firmly convinced?
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Are you firmly convinced that Christian Bahena-Rivera murdered Molly Tibbetts? The evidence in this case, there's a mountain of it. It is overwhelming. And it leads you to the only conclusion. You follow it, follow it down the path. All of the evidence in this case. Christian Bahena-Rivera took this young woman's life. This is Molly. He took her. He committed the murder. Why?
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What is missing? Because there's a lot missing in this case. We don't have a murder weapon. No murder weapon ever was discovered in this case. And it wasn't for lack of looking, at least as it pertains to Christian Bahena-Rivera. They found a folding knife at his trailer. They sent it into the DCI lab, tested it. No blood. No blood. They found another knife, black knife. Sent that in. No blood.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why would this happen? Because he's angry? Because he wants to have some sort of relationship with her? Because he finds her hot or attractive? Goodness, that's what happened. Molly's no longer on this planet because of the defendant. All of the evidence here points to one verdict. The defendant, Christian Bahena-Rivera, is guilty of murder in the first degree.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's what your verdict should be after your deliberations in this case. Christian Bahena-Rivera is guilty of the first degree murder of Molly Tibbetts. That is your verdict. Thank you.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At this time, Mr. Bahena, I'm going to ask that you rise along with your attorneys, please. And I would ask that the court attendant read the jury's verdict.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We, the jury, find the defendant, Christian Bahena Rivera, guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Today is the date and time set for sentencing in this matter. Mr. Brown, do you know of any legal reason why we should not proceed to sentencing here today?
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, Your Honor.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do either one of the freezes know any reason why we should not proceed to sentencing here today? No, Your Honor. Mr. Bahena-Rivera, let me ask you, do you know of any reason why we should not proceed with your sentencing here today?
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We'll begin then with the state regarding the matter of sentence and punishment. Mr. Brown, do you have anything you'd like to say and or victim impact statement?
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Judge, it's my understanding that victim impact statement should come after allocution of the defendant. Is that correct? Sure. All right. As far as a recommendation on behalf of the state, I know the court is aware that this has been a very long haul in this case. It's been a little bit over three years since Molly
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
was found in august of 2018 and a little bit longer than that when her life was taken by the defendant the jury here convicted the defendant of the crime of murder in the first degree as the court is aware there is no discretion in sentencing mr bahana rivera is going to be sentenced to life without the possibility of parole
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And I would tell the court that based upon the facts and circumstances of this case, it is very well deserved. The facts and circumstances in this case, as the court knows, you step through the trial, you know what the evidence is in this case, were overwhelming as it relates to the defendant.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And quite honestly, Judge, there's a victim impact statement from the mother of Molly Tibbets, Laura Calderwood. that if the court needs any further justification for why that sentence is warranted in the state of Iowa, should look no further than that victim impact statement that she provided to the court that will be read a little bit later.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So we would ask the court impose that mandatory sentence upon the defendant. We would also ask that you order an amount of $150,000 pursuant to Iowa Code Section 903b since this crime involved the death of Molly Tibbetts. and that the file is quite thick in this case.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't know if there's been other pecuniary damage statements that have been filed, but if there are, we would ask that you enter an order at that amount, and also if you can, leave it open an additional 30 days for us to finalize any other amounts that the court may order as it relates to any pecuniary damages that would be warranted pursuant to statute.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So with that, Judge, we would ask that you impose that sentence and, again, indicate to the court that we feel that it is very well justified. Thank you.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you, Mr. Brown. Mr. Fries, on behalf of Mr. Bahena-Rivera, anything you wish to say at this time?
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Your Honor, given the mandatory nature of the sentence, we have nothing to say.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you. Mr. Bahena Rivera, you're not required to say anything to me, but I want to afford you the opportunity. Do you have anything you wish to say to me prior to my announcing what I'm going to do here today? No, thank you. With that then, we may proceed to the victim impact statement.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Judge, we have just one victim impact statement. It's from Laura Calderwood, who is the mother of Molly Tibbetts. It will be read by Sarah Arms, who is the victim witness coordinator in my office.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Rivera, I come here today not because I feel the need to address you. However, I come here to give a voice to our daughter, granddaughter, sister, girlfriend, niece, cousin, and friend, Molly Cecilia Tibbetts. Molly was a young woman who simply wanted to go for a quiet run on the evening of July 18th, And you chose to violently and statistically end that life.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Nothing. However... Think way back to when Tara Scott talked about her initial crime scene analysis. Remember, she went to 622 West Des Moines Street. A couple days after Molly went missing, they sent the DCI crime scene team up, and they looked at the home at 622 West Des Moines Street. And they looked at it very, very closely. And what did she note?
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I want to address the chain of events you set off on the morning of August 18th after you led authorities to Molly's remains in a cornfield. Do you know what it's like, Mr. Rivera, to be woken up by your youngest son, Scott, telling you the sheriff needs to talk to us?
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
scott and i stood in the entrance of our home where sheriffs tom creagle and matt mushman stood with tears in their eyes it took them a minute to find the words to say we hoped for a different results however we found molly's remains today i thanked them for their service and they left because there was still a lot of work to be done i led scott
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
whose eyes were brimming with tears to the living room and sat him down on the couch. Scott, I said, I am so sorry. I'm gonna call Aunt Billy over to the house to be with you because mom has a lot of work to do. Next, I needed to tell my son Jake. Jake was in his apartment in Iowa City and I did not want him to hear that his sister was not coming home on the news.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Knowing my sister Kim was headed to Iowa City for work, I called her and said, Kim, they found Molly's remains this morning and I need you to pick Jacob and bring him home. It was a race against the clock to notify all the people who cared so deeply for Molly that she was not coming home. It was very important to notify the people who cared deeply about Molly so they did not hear this on the news.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Imagine what it's like to call Molly's father, Rob, who resides in Fresno, California and say, Rob, I am so sorry to have to tell you this, but they found Molly's remains this morning and I need you to come back to Iowa. Can you imagine Mr. Riviera as a father having Paulina's mother taken away from you and to have to tell your daughter that she will never come home? However,
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The most difficult person to tell was Molly's grandmother and my mother, Judy Calderwood. Judy truly believed her granddaughter would be found alive because who could harm such a beautiful, vibrant, young woman so full of life and promise? Who could harm Judy's precious granddaughter, let alone brutally murder her and dump her body in a cornfield?
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This was heartbreaking news that needed to be delivered in person. I entered my mother's home and she greeted me with a big smile and asked if I wanted a cup of coffee. There certainly was no easy way to tell her the news. However, it had to be done before her phone started ringing with loved ones sending their condolences. I very quietly and softly said, mom, I have some bad news.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They found Molly's body this morning. But we know where she is now. Judy Calderwood's unwavering faith had been brutally shattered by your senseless act of violence. Can you imagine Mr. Rivera sitting across the table from your Madre and telling her Paulina is never coming home? I am aware that you know Ulysses Felix Sandoval and his family.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She noted in the hallway there was a gun safe with a number of guns in it. But of particular note was a... loaded pistol, loaded pistol in a little cabinet hanging on the wall with several knives, hunting style knives. Some of them were folding knives. Bet you if they went and looked, they may have found them with a camouflage handle, but they didn't bother to look. Why?
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yuli, as I call him, was a classmate and a friend of my son Scott. Do you know Yuli was at the press conference where authorities announced that you, Christian Bahena-Rivera, had been charged with the murder of Molly Tibbetts? Yuli immediately started crying, but knew that he needed to call his madre before she heard it on the news. The Felix-Sandoval family was devastated.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How could this young man they fed and fostered be responsible for such a heinous crime? Do you know, Mr. Rivera, that Yuli's parents had to leave Brooklyn because they were receiving death threats? Do you know Yuli lived in our home for his last year of high school so he could finish his senior year and play sports? However, Yuli's parents did not get to experience his senior year with him.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
because of your senseless act. Because of your act, your then employer, Craig Lane, lost all his employees because those workers were afraid of what would happen to them. Because of your act, Dalton Jack will never get to give Molly the engagement ring he had purchased for her. Because of your act, Molly's father, Rob, will never get to walk his only daughter down the aisle.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because of your act, Mr. Rivera, I will never get to see my daughter become a mother. I do hope one day Paulina has the opportunity to become a mother, but how will she ever explain to her children who their grandfather is? This is the legacy you left behind for your only child, Mr. Rivera. I don't know whose situation is worse.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Based on the The jury's guilty verdict entered on the 28th day of May 2021. It is the finding of this court that the defendant is guilty and has now ordered a judge to decree that the defendant is guilty of the crime of murder in the first degree.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Bahino-Rivera, I want to inform you that I've considered all the sentencing options provided for in chapters 901 and 907 of the Iowa Code, and my judgment relative to sentence is based on that which provides maximum opportunity for your rehabilitation, at the same time protecting the community from further offenses by you and others. Mr. Bahino-Rivera, you and you alone
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
forever change the lives of those who love Molly Timmons. And for that, you and you alone will receive the following sentence. It is the order and judgment of this court acting pursuant to the provisions of Section 902 of the Code of Iowa that the defendant B is hereby committed to the custody of for a lifetime sentence with no eligibility for parole.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It is further ordered that the Iowa Medical and Classification Center at Oakdale, Iowa is designated as a reception center to which the defendant is to be delivered by the sheriff of Poweshe County or his designee. The court further orders as follows. The defendant shall pay $150,000 to the heirs at law of Mollie Tibbetts pursuant to Iowa Code Section 81.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You are required to submit a DNA sample pursuant to the request of the state. The state is given 30 days from today's date to file any restitution statements or clarify any that have been filed. And once that is filed, should there be any, the defense will then have 15 days to file any objections. Again, should there be any.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Bahena Vera, I've selected this particular sentence for you after considering the nature of the offense committed by you, the harm to the victim and the victim's family, your need for rehabilitation, and the necessity for protecting the community from further offenses by you and others.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because they'd already made up their mind. We'll get to more of that later. What else don't they have? They don't have a primary crime scene. They don't have a primary crime scene. Where was Molly Tibbetts killed? Was she killed on 385th Street? Did someone stab her nine to 12 times?
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Along the blacktop where she was jogging, someone stabbed her in the throat or do the slashing motion of the throat and stab her several times in the rib and then penetrate her skull on 385th Street where you heard about where all these houses are and the cars that were traveling out there and they talked to darn near, I would submit, everyone on 385th Street and they didn't find her.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One piece of evidence, not any blood. They had it narrowed down. We saw the map of the cell phone technology. They had a pretty small window as to where they'd find something. They send any type of canines out there to find blood. Oh, the weather was bad. I forgot. It was humid. It was hot. It had rained. I mean, they have an excuse for every piece of evidence they don't have.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that can be a problem when you are sitting as a juror. Because when you're sitting as a juror, emotions have no place in that deliberation room. You don't decide this case based upon emotions. You don't decide this case with emotions tugging at your heartstrings. It's not your job to right a wrong. It's not your job to impart vengeance. It's not your job to bring justice for Molly.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But they don't have a primary crime scene. Or was she killed on the 460th Avenue address? Did someone take her 430 feet back in this location and kill her there? We don't know. What investigation did they do to find a primary crime scene next to the cornfield? Or was she killed right there in the cornfield? I highly doubt that. I highly doubt someone killed her right in the rows of corn
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and there wasn't some other evidence there to establish that. We don't have a primary crime scene. Well, they'll pass it off and explain it away by, oh, it's been five weeks, the weather was bad, the corn was tall. You know, they'll find an excuse for everything. That's not Mr. Bahena's problem. That's their problem. They have to prove it, not him. Okay?
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They had the unlimited resources of the federal government. They had drones up in the air. They brought a guy in from Dayton, Ohio for the sole purpose of analyzing the data from one cell phone. And that's the evidence they put on here. They had unlimited resources. Unlimited resources. Mr. Claver told you in the opening statement his sheriff was up flying around in a helicopter.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And they can't even tell you where she was killed. No evidence come off that stand as to where she was killed. None. No forensic evidence at all. They don't have an eyewitness. They have no witnesses. Zero. None. They talk about a confession. We're going to get to that in a little bit. But we dispute greatly that what they attribute to Christian Bahena as a statement...
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you, Your Honor. May it please the court. Counsel. Mr. Brown, Mr. Klaver. Molly Tibbetts is truly an innocent victim. She was absolutely an innocent victim here. No doubt about it. This young woman was a spectacular young woman. She was destined to do great things. She was destined to become the change that she wanted to see in the world. She was just about to spread her wings and fly.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
can be characterized as a confession. Absolutely cannot be. Absolutely cannot be. Motive. Now motive, Mr. Brown talked about, but you really have to use your common sense here, folks. You really gotta think about this one. This man, this man, right here, five foot seven inch, 125 pound illegal immigrant, undocumented immigrant,
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He gets angry at Molly Tibbetts, who he had never met before, who he was trying to get to know, if you believe that story, and resorts to killing her, stabbing her nine times, or maybe 12, three more times, because he's angry. The only evidence they have of his anger... is the story he gave Pamela Romero.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The evidence we do have about Christian Bahena is that he's not an angry man, that he's not violent, that he's a family man, he's hardworking. He came to this country for a reason, and you can bet he wanted to stay in this country. And the concept that he got angry and killed a woman who he had just met defies any logic. Folks, we've all been rejected in our lives. We've all...
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
perhaps have walked up to someone, had the courage to ask them on a date, or had the courage to try to get to know someone, and been told no. May have been told no in an epic way. Been embarrassed by that person. Common sense tells you that you aren't gonna just stab that person, let alone a person like Molly Tibbetts. It makes no sense. They have no motive as to why this man
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
would commit that act. And then they have no scientific evidence that connects him to the killing. They want to talk about the trunk. They want to talk about the cornfield. Both of which, we admit, having her in the trunk and putting her in the cornfield does not mean he killed her. Think about that. The burden of proof is on the state. to prove all that.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that, folks, when you look at what's missing, is a reasonable doubt. What is a reasonable doubt? A reasonable doubt, long and short of it is, the judge will tell you that if after a fair and full consideration of all the evidence, or lack, lack of evidence, okay, if they don't produce the evidence, that's just like evidence you can consider. Lack of evidence. Produced by the state.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Bahena doesn't have to produce anything. He doesn't have to tell the state anything when he has the opportunity. He doesn't have to, when he's questioned, tell the state about these two masked men. It's not his obligation. It's their obligation to prove it. Don't let them shift anything. Don't let them oversimplify and make it sound like he has to do anything. Their burden.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You have to be firmly convinced of his guilt as to each and every element, all four, in order to convict him. If not, you must find him not guilty. Now what does firmly convinced mean? Good question. You're not going to find anywhere in those instructions where it's defined what firmly convinced means. You have to determine for yourself what that means.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She deserves justice, absolutely. It's not your job. Your job is to do justice. Period. Full stop. Your job is to provide a logical, analytical, almost surgical and mechanical application of what you heard here and the instructions, and that's it. The analysis is simple. The analysis is not whether you go back in that room and decide, I think he did it.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I would suggest to you that in your deliberations, To be firmly convinced, you're going to need to know that Christian Bahena did this. You can't just think he did this. You must know that based upon the evidence that they have produced, that he killed Molly Tibbetts, that he committed this crime, and that the state has proven these elements. You best know. You best not think.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's the difference between whether or not you're firmly convinced. Instruction 14 defines murder in the first degree. Element number two is that Molly Tibbets died as a result of being stabbed. We admit that. There's no doubt about that. Somebody stabbed her, and as a result of those stab wounds, she's dead. No problem. But the state has monumental issues with one, three, and four.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Monumental issues. We'll go through those. Element 1. What evidence has the state produced to prove Element 1? They have a drop of blood on the trunk seal. And look at that photo. The drop of blood is a centimeter. I mean, it's small. Okay? They have her DNA in the trunk and her body in the cornfield that Christian took them to. Okay? All facts that we don't dispute. He testified to that.
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Verdict: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But what must you believe to establish element number one? You must believe the testimony of Pamela Romero. Okay? Now, Mr. Bahena told them enough to get them to the body. Okay? This was an 11-hour interrogation. 11 hours. Okay? After he had worked... a full day at the dairy. He works at the dairy. That's hard work.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and he is here. His name is Christian Bahena Rivera. The evidence in this case shows that the defendant and only the defendant murdered Molly Tibbetts. All of the credible evidence in this case, all of it, that there weren't two other guys That's a figment of his imagination. All of the credible evidence in this case, all of it points at him. All of it.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Judges read you instructions as to what the charge of murder in the first degree is. There are four elements, four things that the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. That's what we have to show. What those four elements are, what the evidence is in this case that proves that Christian Bahena-Rivera is the man who murdered Molly Tibbetts and murdered her in the first degree.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's the evidence that we're going to talk about, the evidence that you've heard over the last few days here in this courtroom. That's what we're going to talk about here. But make no bones about it, this is what it is. This is what murder in the first degree is. This is the law. The state is required to prove each of those elements beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Are you firmly convinced whenever you look at this evidence? That's the question before you. Elements two, three, and four, there is really no doubt about. All right, we'll talk about them as we go through this evidence more towards the end of my presentation here, but we have to prove them. We have to prove that Molly Tibbetts died as a result of being stabbed.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Dubuque and that's when we started staying in the hotel and we got in Dubuque at six o'clock that Wednesday I mean that Tuesday and worked till five o'clock and then that Tuesday we would go get groceries for grilling and everything like that then Wednesday hang on just a second you're getting just a bit ahead of me okay you let's talk about that work week that includes July 18th so two days before
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Of course we have that evidence here. We have to prove two states of mind of the defendant, that the defendant acted with what's called malice of forethought. The judge has given you that definition. We'll talk about that just a bit later.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then the fourth element that we have to prove is that the defendant willfully, deliberately, premeditatedly, and with specific intent, he acted with that specific intent to kill Molly Tibbetts. As this evidence has come in, as you have seen it, as you have heard it,
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There really is no dispute with these three elements that whoever killed Molly Tibbetts acted with malice of forethought and acted with those other states of mind in element number four. Okay? You follow me? Two through four. We're going to talk here a bit about element number one, which is really what we're going to spend most of our time talking about here this morning.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that first element is what I refer to as the identification element. that on or about the 18th day of July of 2018, the defendant stabbed Molly Tibbetts. That's what the evidence that we're going to talk about here. Was it the defendant? Was it Christian Bahena Rivera? Was it him? The basic story of what occurred that day, will focus on this particular element.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But what is the basic story of what happened on July 18th of 2018? What do we know from the evidence here, from the witnesses who have testified and come forward and taken the oath and sat in the witness chair and told you what happened? Molly Tibbetts was 20 years old. She was a University of Iowa student.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She had just finished her freshman year at the University of Iowa and she had come home for the summer. She worked at a preschool at the hospital in Grinnell. She had a boyfriend named Dalton and she was working at the job at Grinnell and she was enjoying her summer.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She lived at a house part of the time at 622 West Des Moines in Brooklyn where Dalton lived with his brother Blake and his fiancee at the time, Allie. They lived at that house. Molly would frequent the house. Sometimes she would stay there. Sometimes she would stay with her mom. That's what the evidence is in this case. Molly then went for a run. Like she did many times.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Molly went for a run on July 18th of 2018 at about a little bit before 7.45 p.m. You've heard testimony from people who knew her that said she liked to run. In the evening, that was her preferred time to go out for a run. We've also seen through other witnesses in this case, and they've talked about what her routes were. Sometimes she would run around town. Sometimes she would run out on 385th.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's what she would do, right? She was a runner. She'd run cross country in high school and track, and this was one of the things that she enjoyed doing. It was on that night, on that evening of July 18th of 2018, that she ran across the defendant in his chrome mirrored, chrome handled, spoked, tired Malibu. And the evidence is in this case is that he stabbed her to death. Let's talk about that.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
On July 16th of 2018, was your crew working in Iowa County? Yes. You said near the Amana colonies? Yes. And did Dalton Jack, was he included on that crew?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is what the issue here is. This is what this evidence will be focused on. Who killed Molly Tibbetts? Who stabbed her? Who killed Molly Tibbetts? Let's look at that evidence. First of all, Well, let me tell you this before I get into this. Really, there's three components to the proof that we have here in this case.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One is the surveillance video from Logan Collins' residence that was collected by DCI agents. that puts Christian Bahena-Rivera, the defendant, in the area, also puts Molly in the area at the same time. So that's one component, that video. That's what broke this case open. That's what broke this case. That's what ID'd, began to ID the defendant.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So we have the video, the surveillance video from Logan Collins' residence. Right, the second thing is, whenever the defendant was interviewed, he confessed. he told Pamela Romero what he did, at least those parts that he claimed that he could remember. And then the third component to this case is the physical evidence.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The blood of Molly Tibbetts is found in the trunk of the black Chevy Malibu that the defendant was driving, that he owned, that he operated, that Ehrlich Lorenzana bought for him. He's directly connected, really exclusively, to the black Chevy Malibu.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he was. All right. Was that just a one-day job? No, it was a job I was doing in the meantime while crews were doing removals on the Dubuque job. So we had to wait for them to do their removals. And then once they had their removals done, we were going up there to form up under, to report. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So let's look first
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
at the video evidence that we have here. The video IDs him. He's confessed. Sometimes I get ahead of myself. The DNA and the blood puts him there. Molly's location and evidence surrounding her also corroborate the identification of the defendant because of the way in which she was found under the corn stalks, which he described without ever going back there with the officers later.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So we have these components to the case, all of which, when you put them together, knit together a coherent story and prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant is guilty. So let's look first at... The video evidence. Let's review that and let's look about that. That's the first component I talked about, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The video evidence that puts Molly and the defendant together in the same area. This is an enhanced video that we have. Play it again. There she goes. Now, we're looking at the video. Can we say that's her, that's Molly Tibbetts, just by looking at it? Of course not. We have to look at all the evidence in the case collectively.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The defendant puts her there for sure, but that's Molly Tibbetts that's running on that video. So we now have her in the area. What time was that? On the video stamp of the video from Logan Collins' house, it was at 7.45 p.m., What do we see next within 30 seconds of Molly passing through the video of what we just saw? We see that car. Look closely at this picture. We see it more than once.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Judge, we have one short rebuttal witness, Nick Wilson.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We have two other views of it. Actually, we have a fourth view of it, but we have these views here. This is Logan Collins actually on the left standing in his yard. You can see the black Malibu on the left side, and you certainly can see it here on the right whenever it passes by again. So between the hours of 7.45 p.m.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and 8.07 on the video, we see this Malibu pass through several times as Molly is on her run, all right? This is the video that broke this case open. Agent Reeson was talking to you. So did Matt George yesterday. He was one of the team of DCI agents that was working on this case. And he and Agent Reeson were looking at it.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So one day in Iowa County? Yes, Monday. And then did your crew that included Dalton Jack then move to Dubuque? Yes. And what was the job there? Specifically, where was it located? On Highway 61, right before going over into Wisconsin. Explain the type of work that you do on bridges like the one that goes over Highway 61 near Dubuque.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I think it was Agent Reeson that looked away quickly and Matt George saw the shadow of the jogger go by. But that's what broke this case open. Because remember before this. What have the agents and the officers been doing? They've been spending several weeks trying to figure out what happened to her. They've been spending several weeks trying to find her. They can't find her.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The corn is overhead tall in the fields. They're up against a pretty decent challenge. Law enforcement was here to find this young woman. They've been looking. They've been talking to other people, which we will talk about here in just a few minutes. But they've been trying to figure out where she went, what she did.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They had a little bit of help from the FBI, from Kevin Horan, in trying to locate an area to even search. But think about what they were up against. This is a young woman who really didn't have many enemies, if any. I'm not sure there's any testimony that Molly was disliked by anyone. She's a sweet young woman, right? She's what they called a low-risk victim.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No drug history, no domestic violence, nothing of that nature, right? This was a tough one to crack, to figure out. Who was this? Who would do this to her, right? They looked at other people. But this video, when they had it, aha, okay? A clue came in. A lead came in.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now they had a vehicle that they could associate with the area where Molly would normally run and within very close proximity to when she passed through. This was the car. And this car belonged to Christian Bahena-Rivera, the defendant. That's what got them there. I want to break for just a second. And talk about, just briefly, this man's testimony yesterday. Right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All of a sudden now we have these two men, right? He gets up and gives us this different version of what happened. You know what the problem is with it?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It doesn't make sense. And it doesn't fit.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The video evidence here refutes his testimony. he said that he and two men passed her running going into town right out on 385th they were going into town whenever she was running that's when he said they saw her the video shows the defendant on east des moines seconds after she passes through, not out on the county road. Whoops, he didn't think about that, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We've got him in town in his vehicle whenever she passes by within 30 seconds. Think about that. Right after she passes by, there is no way he could have passed her on the outskirts of town and seen her for the first time. He saw her for the first time whenever he saw her in town. That's what the video shows. He cannot be two places at once. It doesn't work. It doesn't work.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Whenever he gets up on the stand and whenever he testifies and gives you this new story, these additional facts that he never told police, you can judge that the same as you do any other witness. You can scrutinize it. You can look at other evidence that we have in the case. And you know what it doesn't fit with? It doesn't fit with that video.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Wilson, good morning. Good morning. Can you please state your name for the record? Nick Wilson. And are you employed? Yes. Where do you work? Jasper Construction. Does your work take you on the road? Yes, it does. Mr. Wilson, do you know Dalton Jack? Yes, I do. How long have you known him? Five years. And did Dalton Jack ever work for Jasper Construction? Yes, he did.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Continuing about the video what happened before before they went out to the farm to talk to him so they had the video Officers were looking at it agents recent and George they passed that along to other officers in the case, right? They're trying to figure out they don't know whenever they see that video and see that car with those distinctive features with the chrome mirror and
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, we would break all the way through the bridge deck, and they have joints in the bridge that allow the bridge to move, and we had to replace those joints. So we'd bust them out, we'd reform up underneath of it, place a new joint in there, and then pour concrete all around the joint to hold it in place.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
with the chrome handles and the spoke wheels, they don't know that it belongs to Christian Bahena-Rivera. They don't know that. They can't associate it. There's black Malibus. It's a common vehicle. So they're looking. They have a lead, and they're chasing it, and they're trying to figure out who is this person that is passing by in the area where Molly Tibbetts is believed to be running.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Who is it? We gotta figure this out. Who is this person that keeps going by, right, multiple times between 746 and 807? Who is this person? We gotta try to figure this out. Well, they did. Steve Kinney, who's a police officer, is a deputy sheriff with the Poweshiek County Sheriff's Office, is driving August 14th, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He's driving after this video has been seen, August 16th, I believe, is driving this video, and whenever he knows the information, he knows what the car looks like, and you know what he sees? He sees this vehicle. This is a picture taken from the night that he encountered the defendant in Malcolm.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Remember, Malcolm is a town that is just north of I-80 in Poweshiek County, and Steve Kivy that evening sees this vehicle, and it's like zeroed in on it. Why? Because it has distinctive features. It has the chrome mirrors, chrome handles, the spoked wheels, but it was mainly those chrome mirrors that drew his attention, and it was black.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And so Officer Deputy Kivy was ahead of the Malibu whenever he pulled off of the road and then let it pass, and then followed it, got to an alleyway, used an interpreter, and he found this vehicle with those features and who was driving. The defendant, by himself, alone. Had to use a resident there who spoke Spanish to try to communicate with him. Asked him a few questions, denied anything.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
First story, by the way, that the defendant tells about anything about Molly Tibbetts when he's asked, denies. Denies, denies. Doesn't know anything about her. So now, police have A potential suspect in this man that you see here on the right is the same guy that's sitting here in the courtroom.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The defendant admits he's the sole person who uses the Malibu and then a plan is put together in order to try to take him in or bring him in and interview him to try to gain some information. The police still don't know. Is he connected? Maybe. His car's in the area. Now we know who it is. We need to talk to him. They're going to follow the evidence. They're going to follow the lead.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
On Tuesday, July 17th, Wednesday, July 18th, and Thursday, July 19th, was Dalton Jack working with you in the city of Dubuque on the job you just described? Yes, he was. Did I ask you to go back and look at employment? pay sheets to verify hours and the presence of other crew members? Yes, you did. Did that help refresh your memory? Yes, it did. Let's talk about Wednesday, July 18th of 2018.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So that's what they do. So the video here proves what? It proves the identity of the defendant, the vehicle that he's in, he later admits that it was his car, and his proximity to Molly Tibbetts. So the video and the admissions of the defendant place him in Brooklyn within seconds of Molly's sighting that we saw on the video. So why is that important? It is important because
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He is in the area within seconds. It fits with the evidence in this case. It fits with him having the opportunity to see her, to notice her. You can look at the picture of Molly Tibbetts. She is a cute 20-year-old young woman. He likes her. He sees her. She's in tight clothing as she's jogging. She's in a jogging bra and spandex-type shorts as she's jogging down the road.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's what got his attention. That should be patently obvious. So the video, the first component that puts these two people, that puts the defendant together with Molly Tibbetts, is the video. It's really irrefutable.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it is the thing, the piece of evidence, the lead that the police followed that broke this case and led them to more evidence and more evidence that the defendant was the one who committed Molly Tibbetts' murder. So component number one. The second component... to this is the interview of the defendant. Several days passed, there was a weekend in between. and officers made a plan.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They got some help from federal partners in Homeland Security. They got other officers from DCI, and the plan was to go out to Yerby Farms and make an attempt to not only talk to the defendant, but talk to anybody else or make contact with anyone else who may have information or be a witness in this case, anybody that they can talk to. So they did. On August 20th, they found the defendant working.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If you recall what the evidence is in the case is that he had driven, they also wanted the black Malibu, I would tell you. That's what the evidence is here too. He was driving another car on August 20th, a Nissan Altima that he had driven. He was also in another building from where the officers were. So they had to find him. It didn't take long and they did locate him.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
so they get the the cars they also talked to him to get consent to bring the Malibu in his consent was given and the Malibu was brought into the Sheriff's Office to be examined by crime scene team so but what they did then is they then take him to the Sheriff's Office all right so we've already had one story one version out of the defendant right whenever Steve Kivy encountered him on
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
or in the alley up in Malcolm just a few days before, he denied any knowledge of Molly Tibbetts, denied knowing anything about it other than seeing it on the news and knowing that she was missing. This was obviously a very high-profile matter and a very high-profile investigation, and so he claims to have known about it. All right, so then what do we have?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We now have the defendant's what eventually becomes a confession. Confessions in Iowa need to be corroborated in order to be used as evidence. This confession is corroborated in many ways. So let's look at the defendant's statements to the police. How did it set up? Poweshiek County had used Pamela Romero because she was a native Spanish speaker. She was a police officer at the time in Iowa City.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She had prior law enforcement experience with the West Liberty Police Department here in Iowa. She was a native of Mexico. She came here when she was a young girl, when she was 10, immigrated here with her family, and moved to West Liberty. She ended up getting an interest in law enforcement, and she started that career with both West Liberty and with Iowa City.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And she was an Iowa City police officer at the time that she was utilized in this case. If you recall, she had been utilized about a month before to help with other Spanish speakers, to help interpret. By the way, something that Officer Romero did quite often was to help interpret, officer.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So she came to Poweshiek County back in July of 2018 to help with that and then she came back to then be the person who could talk to the defendant. And doesn't that make sense to have somebody like her? Why not have her? Does she have a ton of experience in law enforcement? No. But she speaks the same language as the defendant. She's a native speaker. She can have a conversation with him.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you remember that particular day? Yes, I do. Also, that week is particularly memorable to you for another reason. No. Okay. Is it the week that Molly Tibbetts went missing? Yes. Okay. So does that help you remember? Yes, it does, yes. I may have already asked you that.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The defendant himself told you yesterday he had no problems understanding her, understanding the questions. There was no confusion. It's the same thing that Officer Romero told you. Whenever they were speaking, it was conversational, and they were able to understand each other. But what happens now in a case, though, whenever we have two native Spanish speakers talking on a video?
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We would love to show you that, to play it, but we can't. I mean, we would need 12. really native Spanish speakers to come in to be able to understand it. So we have to rely on what Pamela Romero tells us the questions and answers were. You saw her on the stand. She's very well put together. She's soft spoken. She is pleasant. She was the same exact way with the defendant.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She will tell you what the conversation is that she had with the defendant while they were at the Poweshiek County Sheriff's Office. What statements were made and what was said during the interview. So initially, What do we get? We get the same story that the defendant had told Officer or Deputy Kivy in Malcolm days before. He didn't know anything about Molly Tibbetts' disappearance.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Knew that she was missing, had seen posters and flyers, had seen things of that nature, and had seen that in a store. I think he even said that he had maybe come into contact or had seen Dalton, the boyfriend of Molly. But what does he eventually end up telling the officers? They go through the interview, right? So it's deny.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Then Officer Romero shows the defendant photos of things that we saw similarly in the videos that show the car. He now knows what? Okay, now my car's in the area. Uh-oh. So how am I gonna try to explain that one? All right, so he sees his vehicle in the area. She shows him several photos of it, and then he admits, right? He's now confronted with some evidence that puts him in the area.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now his story changes, right? It changes to, okay, yeah, I saw her, and she was jogging. And, you know, he even makes a comment about her attractiveness. I think there's some dispute as to whether or not she said hot or not. Hot, pretty, whatever it is.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
right he is talking to now talking to pamela romero officer romero about the way that molly tibbets appears all right story two okay first one was to deny second one now when shown evidence that his car is in the area he now moves to Okay, I saw her. Yeah, I did. That's my car. She's in the area. And he tells the officer. There's several points here.
Crimeatorium
Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, going back to Wednesday, July 18th of 2018, was Dalton Jack on the crew that was working in Dubuque on the bridge that crossed the river? Yes, he was. And on Wednesday of July 18th of 2018, what were Dalton Jack's hours?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
As we move through the interview with him, it starts out again with denial. The second one is, I saw her in the area. Then it moves to what whenever we get to the field? Lots, he confesses to the murder. is what he does, to the confrontation, to taking her, to being the only one, to taking her to the field, to her being bloody and putting her in the corn. That's what he does.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So he admits to observing her and indicates she's attractive. So then what does he then start to tell Officer Romero? He tells her during this interview with her that he admits... that whenever he encountered Molly out on 385th, out on the county road, that she didn't want anything to do with him. She rebuked him, right? Molly threatened to call the police, right? He did not want that, right?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What does that do to him?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Makes him angry, right?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He admits that. He admits that he became angry. Whenever he gets out of his car, he like jogs along with her. He talks to her about that or talks to Officer Romero about that. Molly then says, I'm going to call the police. I'm going to call the cops. This makes him mad. She even slaps him. He admits that she slaps him at one point.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So there's a physical confrontation between Molly Tibbetts and the defendant by his own admission. out on 385th, and he becomes angry. A very simple motive in the case to do someone harm. What does he admit next after this confrontation on the road? He then admits that Molly is in the trunk of the Malibu, and he also admits that he is alone, and he also admits that Molly's earbuds are on his lap.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Those are earbuds that Dalton Jack purchased for her as a gift, right? He then admits to that, right? He puts her in the trunk. He starts driving down the road. We have corroboration of that also. We'll talk about here in just a second. But that's what he says happened, right? He's confronted this girl. He became angry. She's in his trunk. He's telling us that. There's no other two guys.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There's nobody else. He doesn't put anybody else in the vehicle. He had every chance to do that. He was asked multiple times, tell us more, help us more. These officers who could protect him, right? He didn't do it, right? He didn't tell them. Instead, she's in the trunk. We know he's headed south. He admits that he's alone. He admits the earbuds are there. He admits to going to the cornfield.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection. Calling for hearsay.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He admits taking Molly into the corn and he admits covering Molly with corn stalks and he discarded her and he left her in the corn after covering her with these corn stalks. He was in one of the most remote parts of Poweshiek County. And even though there is a cutout that goes back into the corn where she was found, she's over 400 feet, almost 500 feet into that cornfield.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled. Witness may answer.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She is unfindable other than by the defendant. So, this statement that he gave to Pamela Romero, Officer Romero. He was given multiple, multiple opportunities to tell more. particularly during the end of that conversation that they were having near the cornfield in the car whenever Pamela Romero runs him through the events and tries to get more information out of him. How are we here?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
5.30 a.m. to 7 p.m. This crew that you're working, are you in a supervisory position? Yes. Do you log their hours for them, the men on your crew? Yes, I do. They don't have anything to do with that themselves? No, they do not. Do you create a timesheet that... reflects the hours that each crew member worked? Yes, I do. And how long did Dalton Jack work specifically on July 18th of 2018?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How did we end up here? Tell us more. Does the defendant ever admit to stabbing her? He says that he blacked out. He didn't black out. He just doesn't tell her. But he told her everything about the confrontation, about how he got to the cornfield, about how she was covered. And he tells her on two occasions in the car, I brought you here. More or less, what more do you want me to tell you?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I brought you here. And he did. He led them directly to Molly Tibbetts. These cops had been searching for her for weeks. He goes right there. He tells Pamela Romero, I did it, didn't I? He claims not to remember, claims that he blacked out. He didn't black out. He tells about the confrontation. He tells about Molly being bloody in the trunk, about hauling her out to the corn, about covering her.
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He's telling the officer that he did it. He's confessing. He's telling the officers in telling them those statements, I killed Molly Tibbetts. That's what he's saying. That's what the statements all point to. We also have, as far as corroboration of this confession, This is a state's exhibit that we used with FBI agent Kevin Moran, who we brought here from Dayton, Ohio.
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Agent Moran is a cell phone expert, an analyst with the FBI. He's a special agent. He's a law enforcement officer that has a particular expertise in working on the CAS team with FBI. So we put officer or agent Kevin Moran on the stand. And what he does, what does this help with? All right.
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We know that, for instance, Christina Stewart saw Molly jogging on the road, jogging away from her, right about the same time that the video puts Christian Rivera and Molly in the area. But that's a human. That's a person that's giving you their views. You know, that's what she testified to. There's really no reason to doubt it.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But this type of evidence that Agent Horan can offer is electronic evidence, right, not subject to bias, not subject to impressions. And he helps us establish a timeline with regard to Molly Tibbetts. He helps us also establish two different search areas that also help with the investigation. He knows that Molly Tibbetts was taken at about 8.30 p.m.
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shortly before because she ends up, by his calculation, driving directly south just after that between 60 and 70 miles an hour. So we know that's when she was taken. That is consistent with and in conformity with
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The evidence that we see in the video with Christian Rivera's car being in the area with Molly Tibbetts, it also supports what the defendant is saying at the sheriff's office whenever he's interviewed that he took her out on 385th. All of the electronic evidence is matching up to help establish this timeline. It's the same location as the defendant states to Romero out on 385th.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And also, whenever he takes them to the cornfield that is down on 460th and southeast of Poweshiek County, it lines up with that as well. Actually, if you look at his search area, that is the box on the bottom of this exhibit, it puts the area where Molly was found is on the far eastern edge of that. So it all matches up. It is all consistent.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
it's the same location that the defendant took the officers to in august on august 21st of 2018. it matches and it's electronic evidence it's not subject to bias this all fits this confession of the defendant identifies and proves that the defendant and only the defendant murdered Molly Tibbetts. All right? So component one is the video and all the information we've already talked about.
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12.5 hours. He worked till 7 p.m.? Correct. Were you and the other crew members staying at a motel near Dubuque? Yes, it was a Days Inn in Dubuque. And how far was the Days Inn from the job site that you described to us? 10 minutes. And did you and your crew, including Dalton Jack, go anywhere after work at 7 p.m. on July 18th of 2018? No, we did not. Did you go back to the hotel? Yes. All right.
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Component two is the confession of the defendant where he says he is solely responsible for Molly Tibbetts' death. Let's move to some physical evidence here. The DNA that we have in the case. By the way, the DNA the defendant doesn't know about, right, at the time that he's first interviewed. This is information that came in later. But DNA proves
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that Molly Tibbetts had direct contact while bleeding with the Malibu that is owned and solely operated by the defendant. Right? That's what we have. How Molly was found in the cornfield, the physical evidence that we have there, it lines up with how the defendant said that she would be found and her clothing in the field. We'll talk about that here in just a second.
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So let's talk about what we have here with regard to the DNA. All right, these are the two pictures. There's others of the car that are in, but these two photos that are here that are in the case as exhibits show that the tag on the Malibu, same tag that Officer Kivy stopped, as well as the blood spot here that you see on the rubber seal,
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
that the swab was taken from that was identified solely as Molly Tibbetts' blood. So we have that. And there's another blood spot that's in the trunk. If you were to stand at the trunk and open the door and look inside, it's here to the left. There's a spot of Molly's blood that's in there. Molly's blood should be nowhere near this Malibu. Right?
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Unless it ties right to the defendant, which it does. And it's the further identity of his embalmer. So the defendant has what? Exclusive control of the Malibu. He never, never, never puts two men in the vehicle with Officer Romero. Has plenty of chances to do that, and he doesn't do it. He also has control of this car.
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from July 18th to August 21st when it is seized, when it is taken into custody by the Iowa DCI. So he has the ability to clean it, dispose of things. We don't know what the trunk actually looked like on July 18th of 2018. We know what it looked like on August 21st of 2018, and it had two spots of Molly's blood in there. Did I already say that Molly's blood shouldn't be in there anywhere?
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She has no association with this man. It puts her in the trunk. And he knows this. Now, after it's found, keep that in mind for later. It's irrefutable that she's there on the seal and in the trunk. How Molly was found also corroborates the confession of the defendant. There's a series of photos here that we put in to evidence. Underneath this corn is the body of Molly Tippetts.
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I'm not going to show you after the corn is removed. It's in evidence. I'm not going to show you that again. You know what it shows. But these pictures that are here, all of which are in evidence, You notice what drew everybody's attention is Molly's colorful jogging shoes. That's how she was found. But she's underneath the corn. Now look at that corn and those corn stalks.
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They look like they've been there for a little while. They don't appear to have been moved, again, by anyone. They're laying across her body as her body decomposes under them. And this is what they found. There's her hand. that you can see on the ground. So how does this help corroborate what the defendant told Pamela Romero? Well, remember, he took them out there. He showed them where she was.
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He never walked back into the corn with the officers. But what did he tell them that he did? He told them that he put corn stalks over her. Clearly, that's what happened. And that's what he told them then. Again, not involving two other guys, right? Only him. It corroborates his confession. He knows that. That's what we have here. This corroborates his confession.
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And, again, third component of the states with regard to physical evidence, location, we'll talk a little bit more about that here in a second, and the condition of the corn and what was on her body, just as he said. It all corroborates. It is all starting to fit together. Okay, motive. I want to talk a bit about motive. Motive is not an element in murder.
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If you look at those four elements that we're just talking about, motive's not mentioned in them. But the judge has given you an instruction that talks about motive and utilizing it to judge whether or not you want to believe something and what somebody's testifying to. So you certainly can look at their motive, their candor, and their bias. So you can look at motive in this case.
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So if not the defendant, let's look at motive for a bit. Who had a motive to kill her? Who had a motive to kill Molly Tibbetts? Who? The defendant spent a fair amount of time on Dalton Jack. We'll talk about him later before we're done today. But if not the defendant, who had the motive to kill Molly Tibbetts? A sweet girl, college girl, woman, 20 years old, no other motive.
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And did Dalton Jack go with you? Yes, he did. Did you see him at the Days Inn after 7 p.m. on July 18th of 2018? Yes, I did. So what was the plan then after work for July 18th of 2018 for you and your crew?
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So how does the defendant have a motive? Well, he tells us what it is. Anger is a pretty good one. Anger is probably one of the oldest motives in the history of human beings for why people get hurt. Somebody gets angry and they take steps and act on that anger. Why is he angry? She has rebuked him. Molly threatened to call the police. We've already talked about this.
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We'll talk about it again because this does not fit at all with the other two men theory. So Molly rebukes him. Molly is threatening to call the police, and the defendant was angry. He says that. He tells us that. He also says when he gets angry, he blacks out. That's what he claims. That's what he told the police. But what do we know? We know that she rebuked him. He did not like it.
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And he is angry. And the way he reacts to that anger is to stab this young woman to death and dump her body into a cornfield. Now, whenever we look at motive, it's not one of those things where you say, oh, OK, now it makes sense, where you understand really why somebody would do that and have some common understanding with them. That's not what I'm talking about.
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What motive is, is having some evidence as to why something happened. And this is why it happened, and we know it happened because the defendant told us that's what was in his head. One of the key things in this case is that the defendant led officers to Molly's body. No one other than the defendant knew where Molly was located.
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The officers, the cops in this case, investigators, agents have been searching up and down, have been talking to all sorts of people, trying to figure out, you know, who, right? Who would have done this to her? Who would have had a motive to do it? The defendant, whenever they talk to him, they say, take us to her, and he does. Turn by turn. Takes him right there.
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He led them to Molly in the dark from Yerby Farms. Remember when they left the police station, left the sheriff's office, they had to go out to Yerby Farms to orient him, and then he took them there. No mention of two other men. Only Molly's killer would know her location. Only that person. And the defendant's testimony proves how important this is. You know why? He knows this.
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He knows this is the one kind of thing that people can't get past whenever it comes to his guilt, right? That he led them to the body. Wow, that's pretty powerful. So then what does he do? He comes up with another story. Denial, saw the car, takes them to the body, admits to what we've already talked about, and then number four, we heard, yesterday because he's trying to explain this one away.
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We usually go back to the hotel, get showered up, then bring our food out. We all have one grill and we all just grill at the same grill and have a couple beers, play bags, and then usually go to bed at a decent time so we can get up and work a good day tomorrow.
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All right, other suspects that's been raised here. Here's some of their names, Dalton Jack, Chaney, Pexa, Tomatic, Eichhorn, Culver, all these other names that come up. The cops ran these leads to the ground. They looked, right? They talked to these men. They could find no connection.
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Are they just supposed to ignore everything that Christian Ramirez told them at the end and start keep hammering on these guys and keep coming back to them? Or do you follow the evidence in the case? They followed the evidence in the case.
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There's no evidence that any of these men on that list, including Dalton, who we'll talk about a little bit more specifically later, had knowledge of the defendant, knew who he was, had any connection to his Chevy Malibu, or had any real reason to harm this young woman. None. Dalton Jack had no knowledge.
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One of the things that the defendant says in his testimony that one of the person, the shorter one, knew the defendant had a child, there's no evidence that Dalton Jack knew that or that Ron Pexson knew that, right? That he brings up the child because they threatened him. That's the whole reason he says he didn't talk about these two guys. I mean, come on. I mean, no knowledge.
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No connection between any of these men and the defendant. None. So remember, back in jury selection, we talked about possibilities. Whenever we did jury selection, we did it in three different groups. I think I asked each one of you, not each one of you here, but each one of your groups about possibilities. Is it possible?
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I think the example that I used was, can we go outside of this arena that we're in to pick the jury during COVID? And if there's a hundred dollar bill that's laying out there, is it possible it could be there? Yeah, it's possible, but you don't know, right? I could suggest it just because I suggest it doesn't make it true. That's the whole point, right?
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All these possibilities that are thrown out about Dalton Cech and Ron Pexa and all these other guys that the officers looked at. Possibility, possibility, possibility. But what's the evidence in the case? that they're associated, really none. The evidence in the case that the officers follow, that we're asking you to follow, is what we actually know.
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Did you do that on July 18th of 2018? Yes. And was Dalton Jack present for the grilling? Yes. And did he play bags? He did. Did you ever see him go back to his room? Do you ever recall that? No. On July 19th of 2018, what was the plan for the workday?
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And not just because the officers say it, because we can see it. And we can see the maps, and we can see the testimony, or hear the testimony, and we can hear and see the physical evidence in the case. Just because someone suggests something doesn't make it so.
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It doesn't mean that you're not firmly convinced about exactly the opposite if the evidence proves that that's true beyond a reasonable doubt. Don't fall for the possibilities. There are three other elements. We do have to prove them. I'm going to wrap this up here in just a moment. But the element number two is that Molly Tibbetts died as a result of being stabbed.
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So now we've got element one, identification. Was it Christian Bahena Rivera that stabbed Molly Tibbetts? Beyond a reasonable doubt. You should be firmly convinced based upon the overwhelming evidence that we have in this case about the defendant. So Molly Tibbetts then, number two, died as a result of being stabbed. There's no real issue here.
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She was stabbed somewhere, I think Dr. Klein said, and Dr. Garvin, who testified, talked about the wounds to the ribs. They did a very detailed examination of her. This woman was brutally stabbed. There should be no doubt about that. We have to prove it. It's the cause of death element. ID is one, cause of death is two, right?
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So the second one that we have to prove, Molly Tibbetts died as a result of being stabbed. There's no... question here. We saw the defects in her jogging bra that are sharp force injuries. I think there were seven of them. The sharp force injuries that are on her ribs, same thing. So element number two, right? Element one, ID, proven. Element number two, cause of death, proven.
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Element number three, this is one of two mental states that the defendant has to have in order to commit murder in the first degree. The first one is element number three, which is the defendant acted with malice aforethought. A fixed purpose or design to do some physical harm, here to Molly Tibbetts, which exists before the act was committed. The same injuries that were inflicted upon her
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prove malice aforethought. Now that we have identity, we know that it's Christian Bahena-Rivera that committed these acts that stabbed Molly Tibbetts. He would have plunged a knife into her at least nine times. Sharp force injuries to her neck and to her chest, which killed her. If that's not malice aforethought, I'm not sure what is.
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And really, the injuries to Molly Tibbetts and this mental state that was used to cause those injuries that existed before he would have plunged the knife into her really is not in dispute. So malice of forethought has to be proven in order to be murder. So looking at the injuries, looking at the circumstances, the stab wounds, element number three is proven.
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The second mental state that we have to prove is that the defendant acted willfully, deliberately, premeditatedly with specific intent to kill Molly Tibbetts. The same evidence that we have here It's a little bit exceeding that because we can go back to the things that happened on the roadway to help establish what his mental state was at the time, the specific intent to kill.
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But the stab wounds here, the injuries to Molly Tibbetts, what he did afterwards, he didn't tell anyone, all of those things. How he left her in the corn, all of those things, the repeated stab wounds that took time and effort to do. There's no other intent here other than specific intent to kill. There is premeditation, there is willfulness, and there is deliberation.
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Well, we started at 5.30 that day. We knew rain was coming, so we were just trying to put in a good day before the rain hit. So we worked through lunch, and we stopped at 2 o'clock that day. And after that, we called it. We waited out waiting for about half an hour, and then we'll call the day.
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He tracked her down, he found her on the road, he got angry, and he stabbed her to death and he dumped her body. That's what the evidence is in this case. So, going back to our first element, we've spent most of the time this morning talking about that. On or about the 18th day of July 2018, it was the defendant who stabbed Molly Tibbetts. Molly Tibbetts died as a result of being stabbed.
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The defendant acted with malice of forethought, and the defendant acted willfully, deliberately, premeditatedly, and with specific intent to kill. This is a saying that I learned from a DCI agent that I worked with. His name was Bill Basler. He's up in Mason City. He had this on his wall. And Bill's been retired for quite some time. I worked a number of cases with him. And he had this on his wall.
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It always has struck me as very much driving to somebody's common sense. And that's what we want you to do. We want you to look at this through the lens of your common sense. The instructions allow you to do that. And that's what we want you to do, is to look at that through common sense.
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What is this?
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When you hear thundering hoes, they're horses, not zebras. What does that mean? It means look at the obvious, right? That's what it's after. Don't look for the exotic, right? Look for what the evidence, where it takes you. Look at what the proof is in the case. Look at those things. What the defendant said he did. He never introduces two men till yesterday. Think about that.
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What is the obvious in this case? Christian Bahena-Rivera is guilty. He's guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Looking at all this evidence in the case, I do get a chance to, by the way, talk to you after Mr. Freeze is done. And we'll have an additional time to do that, and we'll cover some more ground, particularly as it relates to some of the statements the defendant made yesterday.
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We are in the presence of the jury. Mr. Behema is present along with the attorneys of record. When we were last here, the defense had rested. Mr. Brown, does the state have any rebuttal?
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So we'll talk about that. But looking at the evidence in this case, all of it, the video, the confession, the blood that's in the trunk, all the other circumstances, all the other investigation that went into this, it all points to one person and one person only. The judge gave you an instruction right towards the end of the set of instructions that he read. Here's what he said.
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And then we went back to the hotel, and we stay at the hotel because we're going to work the next Friday anyways.
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He told you that your job as jurors, your sole duty as jurors, is to find the truth and to do justice. That's your job as jurors. And looking at all the evidence in this case, Looking at everything that we have, all of the circumstances, the truth here is overwhelming. That the defendant murdered Molly Tibbetts on July 18th of 2018. That the defendant committed murder in the first degree.
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He took Molly's life. He stabbed her to death. and he dumped her in a cornfield. Justice in this case, ladies and gentlemen, is a verdict of murder in the first degree. Thank you.
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And was Dalton Jack present for the workday on Thursday, July 19th of 2018? Yes, he was. As far as you know, was he there the entire time from 5.30 a.m. to 2 p.m.? Yes. By the way, did he have a specific job on your crew? He would just be considered a laborer. Did you notice anything unusual with Dalton Jack's demeanor, how he was acting on July 19th of 2018? Yes.
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And did he work in the summer of 2018? Was he working for Jasper Construction? Yes, he was. And was he a good worker? Very good. Showed up on time? Yes. Never had any real problems with him? Nope.
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And can you describe that, please? He was acting kind of down, not really speaking with the group and just kind of sad. And did he ever express to you what was causing him to be sad? Later on that day, yes, he did. What did he say? He told me that he hadn't spoke to Molly in 18 hours and he was getting worried and nobody had heard from her, none of the friends he'd contacted.
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And he was going to maybe leave that night to go put a missing person report at the 24-hour mark and told me that he might not be at work the next Friday. Was that okay with you? Yes, it was. Were you worried for him? Yes, I was.
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And did Dalton Jack come to work then on Friday, July 20th of 2018? No, he did not. To your knowledge, did he go back to Brooklyn? Yes.
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Did you and the rest of the crew finish out your job on Friday? The rest of the crew did. I left a little early to go help search. Go help search for who? For Molly. And when did you do that? I did that probably 9 o'clock in the morning on Friday. I called my boss, asked him if I could leave and come help because he has property in Brooklyn, farm, ground, and everything, and he said that was fine.
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And did you drive back to Brooklyn? Yes.
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Is it about a, from the bridge back to Brooklyn, is it about two, a little over two hours? Yes. And whenever I say that, a two-hour drive or a little more? Yep.
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All right. That's all I have.
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Thank you. Defense may cross-examine.
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Sir, you were in Brooklyn helping with the search. Is that right?
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Correct.
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I haven't seen any records of you being interviewed. Do you recall if you were ever interviewed originally?
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I was just interviewed by the FBI agent. I do not remember. He called me. I didn't get interviewed in person, but it was a cell phone call.
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All right. So you were called by an FBI agent. Is that correct?
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Yep.
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How long did that call last?
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It lasted maybe a matter of three minutes, maybe.
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What was the call regarding?
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Just Dalton's whereabouts.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, you were not originally subpoenaed as a witness to testify at this trial. Is that correct? Correct.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's not relevant as to when we call him. Overruled.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were not subpoenaed, is that right?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you know Dalton Jack outside of work with Jasper Construction? Just at hotel, you know, when hanging out with him, yeah, just a little bit. Not personally, personally, but yes.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When were you contacted about testifying at this trial?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Actually a couple weeks beforehand by a sheriff.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, and what was your understanding of the reason for the call?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To give Dalton an alibi, technically, yes.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you were called by the sheriff to give Dalton an alibi, is that right?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, yeah, I was the only witness there for him, pretty much, other than the crew.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you ever asked to produce these records that you relied on?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Later on, yes.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So just recently, is that right?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I offered to bring them beforehand, but then he asked me to bring them once, yes, later on.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. So originally when this investigation was going on in 2018, were you ever asked to produce records? No. So the records that you've relied on, you just looked at in the last couple of weeks, is that right?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sir, there's been some talk about you drinking most of the day that you were rained out on Thursday, July 19th of 2018. You recall drinking that day? Yes. And specifically, it was asked if you needed to have a ride to the store because you were so intoxicated.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's not correct. I had a company vehicle, and I was following the law.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Which is what?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Which is you cannot drink and drive.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you asked for someone else's assistance on July 19th to get to the store, is that right?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Specifically, who was that?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Dalton Jack.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that was because you were not in a condition to drive, is that correct?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's because I would not be able to pass a breathalyzer, correct.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You're a little older than him, is that correct? Correct. All right, I want to direct your attention, Mr. Wilson, back to the week that includes Wednesday, July 18th of 2018. Do you recall that week? Yes, I do. Was that the week that Molly Tibbetts went missing? Yes. Is that why you can remember that week a little bit better than others? Is that a yes? Yes, sorry.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, it's customary for crews to drink after a long day of work, isn't that right?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So, pretty much any day that you are working, you are also consuming alcohol later on that night, is that right?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Most nights?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, let's talk about Wednesday, July 18th of 2018. You said that you drank a couple of beers that night, isn't that right?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If Dalton Jack originally said to law enforcement that he showered that night and watched rush hour one in his room, would you disagree with that statement?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She's asking this witness to comment on another witness's credibility.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, a witness can answer if he knows.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, I do not recall.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you're not sure if he was in his room? it it's hard to remember it was three years ago you just testified that you were out playing yard games and and grilling isn't that right correct and that dalton was there correct but you're telling us that if dalton said that he actually showered and watched rush hour one in his room that you're not sure if that happened
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No. How would I be sure if he was in his room watching Rush Hour? He could have done that during the shower, had it on, played it, then came outside.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Dalton Jack was interviewed several times when this originally happened. You knew that, is that right? Correct. In his recollection, within days of this happening, you'd agree that would be better than yours three years later?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Workers at your company routinely share rooms, isn't that right?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And in this case, are you aware that Dalton Jack was sharing a room with Brandon Gordy?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, Brandon Gordy would be a better person to say where Dalton Jack was in the evening hours of July 18th of 2018. Isn't that right?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We don't have Jack's cause for speculation as to what Brandon Gordy may have said or seen or heard. Sustained.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You'd agree with me that you go to sleep early so that you can start the day early. Isn't that right?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And... Brandon Gordy would be the person that is in the room with Dalton Jack that night?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were aware that Molly Tibbetts and Dalton Jack were having problems with their relationship, isn't that right?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objections exceeds the scope of direct.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Calls for speculation.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled. The witness may answer if he knows.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not at the time, no.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You found out after the fact?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I found out during the trial.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No further questions.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brown, anything else to this witness? No. Mr. Brown, on behalf of the state of Iowa, you may proceed.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you, Your Honor. May it please the court. Counsel. Mr. and Ms. Freese. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. This is a case that you have heard over the last few days here in this courtroom. You've heard a case and evidence about a young woman who went for a run on July 18th of 2018 and she never came home. Her life was brutally taken by the defendant on July 18th of 2018.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What job were you working the week that included July 18th of 2018?
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is Molly Tibbetts, 20 years old, just starting out her adult life. Molly Tibbetts went for a run. She'd gone for a run most days. Sometimes she would go a short distance, sometimes she would go a little bit longer. But on July 18th of 2018, she went for that run that was a little bit longer. She was confronted by this man. She crossed paths with him and it ended her life.
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, that Monday, we started on a job we had to do. It was in Amana. It was probably five minutes east of Williamsburg. And then that following Tuesday, we were up in...
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Part 8: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She was attacked brutally by him. She was stabbed repeatedly by him. Can you imagine what that was like for her? Nine to 12 times, She was stabbed. Her clothing was removed. She was dumped into a cornfield, discarded under a pile of corn. She was covered with those leaves, and she was left. Five weeks, Molly's body laid in that cornfield. And you know who knew about that? One man. One man knew.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And when you called 911, where were Jacob and Sabrina? In the garage still. Do you know if they were standing or if they were on the ground or where they were? I don't recall. Do you know if Mr. Kerr still had the knife? I believe so. What were your emotions like at that time? Fear. Terrified. I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B6. Can you identify what that photograph depicts?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That is the hallway leading to the bathroom and the bedrooms. Is that where you headed after you closed the door to the garage? Yes. There is a railing on the left. Where does that staircase go? That leads to the basement. What's in the basement? That was mine and Sabrina's room and storage. There's a door on the right in this photograph. What is in the door on the right?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That would be the bathroom. Did you look in that bathroom on your way back to Eson's bedroom? Yes. What did you see? I saw a body wrapped in a blanket and stains all over the floor. Did you spend much time going in that bathroom and looking with any specificity? Could you see who it was? No. Did you make an assumption in your mind about who it was? Yes. Who did you believe it to be? Hison.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So the doorway all the way at the end of the hall, what is that doorway? That is the door to Hison's room. Is that where you went? Yes. I'm showing you what's been marked as 1B7. What is depicted in this photograph? Hison's room. There's a door immediately to the right. Do you know what that door is? I believe that is a closet.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then there's a door in the back on the right, a doorway that you can see. Where does that doorway lead to? That is the bathroom. And is that where you went? Yes. When you came in through the garage, do you remember if you locked the garage door? I don't believe I did. When you came into Hisan's bedroom, do you remember if you locked that door? Yes, I did. And when you came into the...
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He's on the bathroom. Did you lock that door as well? Yes. What did you do when you got into the bathroom? I grabbed a towel to wrap up my arm and called 911. And did you just stay in the bathroom then, Ken, while you were on the phone with 911? Yes. Do you recall where in that bathroom you were standing? Up against the door. How was your body positioned?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I had my back up against the door and I was standing. While you were in the bathroom, do you recall if anybody else came into the house? Yes. What do you recall?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe that Kayer came back inside and tried to get into the bathroom. How do you know that? Because I could hear him outside of the door.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You know for sure it was him? No. But you suspected it was him? Yes. I'm showing you what's been marked as exhibit 1B8. Can you identify what's depicted in that photograph? Yes, that is the bathroom. There is what appears to be some staining on the floor of the bathroom. Did you observe that staining on the floor of the bathroom before you entered the room? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Based on where you were standing and the nature of your injury, do you believe that staining came from your injury? Yes. And is that standing consistent with where you were standing in the bathroom? Yes. Do you recall making that phone call to 911? Yes, I do. And you recall talking to the dispatcher and remaining on the line until officers arrived? Yes. Did officers eventually arrive unseen? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When they arrived, do you recall dispatch telling you to leave the residence? Yes. And what did you do? I walked through the house and out of the front door. Did you walk back out the garage door where you came in, or did you walk out a different door? I walked out a different door. And that was the front door to the house? Yes. Were officers waiting there to meet you? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's the house where you resided with Sabrina and Sunny Teague? Yes. And were you living there in June of 2016? Yes. Were you working at that time? Yes. Where were you working? Burger King. Do you know about the date range of your employment with that Burger King? January, I believe, until July or August. Is that January 2016? No, yes, 2016, sorry.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then what happened after you met with officers? I was put into an ambulance and rushed to the hospital. Do you recall which hospital you were at? Fallon. What was the nature of the injuries that you suffered?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There was a severed main artery, several severed tendons and nerves. And that is all that I know. What about the injury to your chest? Do you remember that? Yes, I do. And that was just a lesion. Do you recall what you were wearing that night? Yes, I was wearing my black khaki pants and my Burger King work shirt.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, do you recall whether or not you had any weapons on your person that night? Yes. What did you have? I had a pocket knife. Is it typical for you to carry a pocket knife? Yes. Do you recall, did you use that knife at all during this incident? No, I did not. Do you recall dispatch having a conversation with you about that knife? Yes. What was the nature of that conversation?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They asked me if I had any weapons, and I told them that I had my pocket knife, and they told me to take it out of my pocket and leave it in the bathroom. Did you do that? Yes, I did.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm going to ask you to take a look at Exhibit 1B9. Can you see that knife in that photograph? Yes. Where is it located? Towards the front left of the drawer. And 1B10, can you identify what's present in that photograph? Yes, that is my pocket knife. It appears to be on a tissue. I don't mean to lead you. I don't know whether that's a tissue or not.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Was that white tissue-like object, was that yours or was that in the drawer? That was in the drawer. And again, did you utilize that knife at all during the course of this incident? No, I did not. And you did, in fact, leave it there to be recovered or photographed by law enforcement? Yes. Joel, I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B11.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Can you indicate what's depicted in that photograph? That is mine and Sabrina's room. And which room of the home is that located in? That was downstairs in the basement, the first door on the right. And that's where the two of you stayed together? Yes. I don't mean any offense by this, but it's kind of messy. Is that sort of the normal state of affairs in that room? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, I'm going to ask you to identify Exhibit 12. Can you indicate what's depicted in that photograph? That is one of our windows. I'm going to return to photograph number 11. The window in 12, is that photograph present on this photograph, photograph 11? Yes. And which window is it? That would be that one. I believe you were pointing to the top left-hand side of photograph 11. Is that accurate?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. In number 11, that window is covered. Is that right? Yes. I'm going to return to photograph 12. It appears that there is some grass or plants on the bottom of that, and it appears that the window is broken. To the best of your recollection, prior to June 7, 2016, did the window area look like that? No. Was it broken to your knowledge at all? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, you indicated that you were wearing your Burger King shirt that night. I'm going to ask you to take a look at photograph 1B13. What's depicted in that photograph? That is my work shirt. That's the shirt you were wearing on the night of this incident? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Now, Joel, I know this might be difficult, and ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this might be difficult, but I'm going to show you some photographs that depict your injury, okay? Yes. I'm showing you 1B14. Do you know what's depicted in that photograph? That is my arm. Is that what it looked like after the incident with Mr. Kayer on June 7th of 2016? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And I think you indicated that the knife went directly through your arm. Is that accurate? Yes. Is there a hole on the other side that's not depicted on this photograph? Yes. And that required surgical intervention? Yes. Joel, I'm showing you 1B15. What's depicted in that photograph? My chest and face. Does that photograph accurately depict the injury to your chest? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you start Burger King before or after you started dating Sabrina? After. So January of 2016. Is that correct? Yes. And how long had you resided at that 1368 residence? About six months. During your time living there, had you ever seen or known a person by the name of Jacob Kayer to be at that house? No. Joel, I'm going to direct your attention specifically to June 7th of 2016.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And in 1B16, can you describe what's in that photograph? The wound on my chest. And again, does that accurately depict the injury that you suffered in this incident? Yes. And you indicated what treatment was required for that injury?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I had to go under for surgery, and they sewed my arm back together, and I had three stitches in my chest.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel, as we were having our conversation here today, you were talking to the jury about what happened to you. You called the defendant Kayer. Did you know Jacob Kayer by first and last name on June 7th of 2016? No, I did not. Did you know his last name? No. You did know his first name, though? Yes. Had you met him previously? Once. Where did that occur? At Walmart.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you know about when that was? About a month prior to June 7th.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what was the nature of that meeting? Him and Sabrina got into an argument about something, and then we left after that.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I presume at some point, based on that argument and your follow-up conversation with Sabrina, you learned that his name was Jake and that he was Sabrina's ex-boyfriend? Yes. When Mr. Kayer jumped out of that laundry room, did you immediately recognize him as Sabrina's ex-boyfriend? No, I did not. When did you come to recognize him more specifically that night? When she called his name out.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So Sabrina actually called him Jake during the incident? Yes. And then based on what she said and then your subsequent observations, you were able to determine that it was her ex-boyfriend Jake? Yes. Mr. Kerr say anything to you while this attack was happening? No. Anything at all? No. Could you see his face when he came out of the laundry room? Yes. And what was he wearing?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe a black t-shirt, a hat, and jeans. The hat, was it like a baseball cap or what was it? Like a stocking cap. And what color was the hat? Black. But his face was not covered? No. You were able to see it clearly? Yes. What did it look like? Plain. And again, to the best of your knowledge, Mr. Kerr had never been to that house while you were living there? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the only time you ever met him was at that Walmart incident earlier? Yes. Joel, do you recall talking to law enforcement after you were brought to the hospital? Yes. Do you know about how many times you talked to law enforcement? I believe three different times. How soon after the incident did that occur?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
About right before I went into the surgery, so about half an hour.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Half an hour after what? After the incident. Half an hour after the incident or half an hour after you got to the hospital? After the incident. And then did you talk to law enforcement subsequent times at the hospital again? Yes. In preparation for the court here today, did you have an opportunity to review any of the statements or the information that you had provided to law enforcement? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And did you know anything about that information that you provided to law enforcement that was consistent or inconsistent with what you said today? Yes, they were inconsistent. Were they substantially inconsistent? No. Do you recall some of the inconsistencies? No, I do not.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
But certain wordings and certain sayings were different than other statements.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The information that you provided to the jury today, is that the information that you remember to the best of your ability? Yes. And do you recall emotionally what you were like when you got to the hospital? I was scared, in pain, still terrified. Do you remember what shoes you were wearing when you came to the residence that day? No, I do not.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you remember if you took your shoes off prior to going into the house? Yes, I did. You know where? On the porch leading to the door. Was that typical? Yes. Was it a no-shoes house generally? Yes. Okay. I'm going to show you just two last photographs, one B-17. I asked you to take a look at that photograph on B-17. There's a shoe, appears to be a shoe, in that photograph.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And are you from the Green Bay area originally? No. Where are you from? Milwaukee. And do you live in that area now? Yes. At some point in time you were residing up in the Green Bay area, is that right? Yes. Can you tell us how that came about? An ex of mine. And that's not Sabrina? No. At some point in time did you meet a person by the name of Sabrina Teague? Yes, I did.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you remember that day? Yes. Were you living in the 1368 Riverdale Drive residence at that time? Yes. Had you moved out or lived in a different residence at all kind of immediately prior to that? Yes, I did. Where were you living immediately kind of prior to that? What's the timeframe? With a friend and for a couple months. So is that in like the spring of 2016?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
To the best of your recollection, is that your shoe? No. Do you know if that was Sabrina's shoe? Did you ever see her wearing that shoe? I do not think so. I'm just going to show you one B-18 that's close up of that same shoe. Does that change your opinion at all, whether that was yours or Sabrina's? No. Just a brief follow-up, Joel. Do you recall...
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you able to have any specific recollection of where Mr. Kayers stabbed Sabrina? No, I believe all over. Did you see him stab him multiple times? Yes. Joel, I want to ask you one last question. It's probably a little bit uncomfortable, but have you ever been convicted of a crime before? Yes. How many times? Once. All right. I have no further questions at this time.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. Mr. Cotton?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Good morning, sir.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You were asked questions by the prosecutor about inconsistent statements. Do you remember that? Yes. And you said that your statements were inconsistent. Is that what you said? Yes. Meaning that you gave three different statements to the police. Is that what you said? Yes. And then we have a fourth statement here in court, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And actually more statements were made because you prepared with the district attorney's office for trial, right? Yes. In other words, you sat down with them and discussed what you would testify to. Yes. Okay. And you've talked to others about this over time as the years have gone by. Fair to say? Yes. Okay. People have wanted to know what happened, and you've shared what's happened, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Now, regarding the inconsistent statements, were you – I just want to explore that a little bit further. I'm holding up here something that – does this look familiar? Can you see from where you're sitting?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What am I holding? What do I appear to be holding up?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That is the first statement.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Your first statement.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Meaning... Okay. Okay.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, that is my first statement.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. Yes. Yes. Now, you had a chance to look at this statement again when you were preparing for trial with the district attorney's office, fair to say? Yes. And that's when you noticed inconsistencies, right? Yes. Because you were rereading this and also thinking back on what you remember, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And it's fair to say four years, a little bit more than four years have gone by since the incident, right? Yes. Now, this statement was produced while you were at St. Vincent's Hospital, right? Yes. And when you had those wounds that we had seen in the pictures, right? Yes. So, and it's only one page, right? Yes. I'd like to talk to you about some of the inconsistencies, okay?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
First of all, you've testified today about what happened, right? Yes. Yes. And it's your version that Jacob was responsible for this, right? Yes. And we agree you came in through the garage. At least that's your testimony. You came in through the garage, right? Yes. And if we orient ourselves with the pictures, I believe you'd come into the kitchen. Would that be fair to say? Yes. Okay.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And today you testified that... Sabrina walked, your recollection is that Sabrina walked down to the bathroom and noticed her mother, right? Yes. And in your written statement, you had indicated me and Sabrina entered the bathroom. Would you agree with that?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I would just say if he doesn't, we'll refresh his recollection as we ordinarily would. I'm asking if he recalls. In your written statement, you said, when me and Sabrina entered the bathroom, we saw blood everywhere. Would you agree that you made that written statement? Yes, I do. And today you've testified that Sabrina was the one who entered the bathroom, not you. Fair to say? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, that would be before winter 2015. Oh, okay, so this is before you moved into the residence entirely. Yes. And then once you moved into 1368, you were living there essentially continuously until June 7th of 2016? Yes. On June 7th of 2016, do you recall what time you left the house that day? I believe it was 12 or 1 p.m., And where were you headed at that time? Work.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So that's one inconsistency, right? Yes. Okay. And then in your written statement, you stated that Quote, Jake started attacking me with the knife. I fell to the floor. You remember that? Yes. And today you've testified that Sabrina was the first one who was attacked by Jake. Would you agree with that? Yes. That's another inconsistency, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And after Jake attacked in your written statement, you say that Sabrina was attacked second, right? Yes. Yes. Okay, but the way you're remembering it today is that Sabrina was attacked first and then you were attacked second. Yes. I want to try to understand a little bit more clearly what happened in this, or what you say happened.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You have been dating Sabrina since at least, I think, December-ish of 2015, right? Yes. And the two of you met however you met, and you moved into her house fairly quickly, right? Yes. Is that because you had no place else to live, or you just immediately had a very close relationship? We had a close relationship.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the bedroom we saw the pictures of downstairs was where the two of you would reside, right? Yes. And you would agree that Sabrina's mother, he's son, did not want you living in the house. Would you agree with that? No. You don't agree with that? No. Well, she was upset that you were, when you moved into the house, wasn't she? No, she was not. Was she happy that you moved into the house?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She was indifferent. But you weren't working when you moved in, right? No. Meaning, correct, you didn't have a job when you first moved in, right? Yes. And no source of income when you moved into the house, right? Yes. Sabrina was working. She was at Perkins, right? Yes. So you're not working. Sabrina is working.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you're living in the house. Yes. And so to the extent you're eating and having shelter, that's because it's being provided to you within that home, right? Yes. But it's your testimony that he-son, or Sonny as we'll call her, was indifferent to that? Yes. Okay. You didn't have any conflict with her about moving in and eating their food and living off them? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is it your testimony that Sonny liked you? Yes. Okay. Now, you did have a knife on you, right? Yes. Why did you carry a knife with you? I used them at work. You worked at Burger King? Yes. Okay. And we saw a picture of that knife. Looks like a black folding knife, fair to say? Yes. Is that a work-issued knife?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you would carry that at Burger King while you worked? Yes. And then you would carry it in your pocket after you left Burger King? Yes. What was your job at Burger King? I did everything. Cook burgers?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Cook burgers, take orders, make the food, take out the garbage.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And which of those jobs did you require the knife for? Breaking down boxes. Okay, so if you had to break down a box, you had a knife for that? Yeah. And would you agree that this knife has a blade, right? We can't see it in the picture, but there would be a blade in there, right? Yes. And would you agree you also carry that knife with you for protection if you need it?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. You didn't just get the knife for purposes of breaking down boxes at Burger King, right? Yeah. Right? The knife has other purposes if you need it, right? Yes. If someone attacks you, you have a knife available to repel the attack.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Now, in the six months or so that you had been at this house, you never once saw Jake there, right? No, I did not. And it would be completely unexpected to see Jake in the house that night, right? Yes. There's no reason for him to be there. Yes. No conflict had happened earlier that day that would cause him to be there?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Sabrina picked you up from work and you guys went to Walmart to get some food, right? Yes. So in terms of... In terms of what you were doing, it was as uneventful of an evening as you can imagine, right? Yes. Similarly, there had been no conflict between Jacob and Sonny.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you weren't aware of any conflict between the two of them where there was bad blood between him and Sonny?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, there was none.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And again, during the six or seven months, you never once saw Jacob at house, right? Until you say the night of the stabbing. Correct. Now... And just so we're clear, you did have a cell phone at that time, right? Yes. And the police took that cell phone and did whatever they did with it, right? Yes. In fact, you gave permission for them to analyze it if they wanted, right? Yes. Okay.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that is the Burger King? Yes. Where was that Burger King located? In Howard. And so when you went to work, 12 or 1, how long were you supposed to work that day? I believe I was supposed to be there until 9 or 10. How did you get to work?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you had had that phone for maybe a month or so, or a month or two months before this incident, would that be fair to say? Yes. And that phone would contain text messages, phone call history, things like that? Yes. And you also had a Facebook account, right? Yes. Would you agree with me that in your phone, you would access YouTube from your phone? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Would you agree with me that the same day of this incident, you searched on YouTube? It's up to you. We can approach first, and if you want to excuse the jury, we can. All right.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So I think for purposes of the record, there's a relevance objection. I'm going to overrule the objection.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
My question for you was whether you were able to access YouTube also from your phone, right? Yes. And you would do that periodically? Yes. And the same day of this stabbing, you had searched the phrase famous last words. Would you agree with that? Yes. In fact, that was the last thing you searched right before the stabbing? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you were asked about that by the district attorney's office in preparation for this trial, weren't you? Yes. And you told them that it's a music video that you like. Yes. Called Famous Last Words. Yes, it is a musical group. What's the video about?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't recall.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Wait for a moment, sir.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He said he doesn't recall.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Well, I'm just going to sustain the objection, but is there any additional questions you intend to ask on that issue? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Then I don't think I need to worry about the answer. It's already in the record. All right.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Now, you were... So we've already talked about Exhibit 2, which is your written statement, right? Yes. Which was written by law enforcement because you weren't in a position to write this, right? Yes. And you were also interviewed... On video, you remember when they filmed you and interviewed you? I do not. Are you aware as you sit here today that you were video filmed as you made a statement?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. You know that, right? Yes. And you know that because the state and the prosecutors have shown you your video to show you what you said, right? Or is that not accurate? That is not accurate. Okay. How do you know you were filmed? How do you know you were filmed? Did somebody provide you a copy of your tape?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, but I was informed. By who? I believe Lieutenant Levin Lennon.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Sabrina drove me.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. And he's here in court at the end of the prosecutor's table with the shaved head, right? Yes. Okay. Did you watch that tape with him in preparation for your testimony? No. No. No? He just told you that there was one, right? Yes. Okay. So you talked about an event at Walmart where you had run into Jacob at some point before this, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have a car at that time? No. Was it typical for Sabrina to bring you to and from work? Yes. And you think you were supposed to work until about 9 p.m. that night? Yes. Did you end up working until 9 p.m.? No, I was released early. Is that typical that you would occasionally get released early? No. Do you know what the reason was on that particular day? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
But Sabrina never told you that Jacob would want to hurt her, right?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, she did not.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She never said Jacob was dangerous? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't believe so.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's something you would have remembered if she had told you that, right? Yes. So she never says he's dangerous, never says he'd want to hurt her, but you did have conversations about him because you saw him at Walmart, right? Yes. And that was about a month or so before the incident? Yes. During this stabbing event, it's your testimony that Jacob... is the one who did this, right?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's your testimony? Yes. And that he didn't say anything before or after the attack, right? Yes. No words?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No words at all.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And I thought, correct me if I'm wrong, I thought that you described how his face looked. Didn't they ask you how his face looked?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you said plain, right? Yes. Would another word for that be expressionless? Yes. Meaning... didn't look angry, you couldn't get any read out of it, could you? Correct. Nor are there any words being said, so that doesn't help you at all either, right? Correct. And let's go with what you remember today in your testimony, is that the initial confrontation happens in the kitchen area, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Which it's either Sabrina first or you first, depending on the written statement or today's testimony, right? Right. Yes. But eventually, all three of you make it to the garage, right? Yes. And you first, right? You were the first one to go in the garage. Yes. And it's your testimony. Jacob just jumped out of the laundry room unexpectedly and started attacking Sabrina, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You got into the garage. Yes. And then... Didn't keep running outside the home, right? Correct. Just stayed in the garage until Sabrina and Jake came out the door. Yes. And I'm trying to understand how it unfolded. You're watching as the two of them are struggling coming down those steps, right? Yes. And that's when you grabbed that shovel that we saw and you hit Jacob in the head with the shovel.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's your testimony? Yes. And in fact... Jacob fell to the ground, isn't that true? Yes. And Sabrina got on top of him? I don't believe so. So Jacob's on the ground and Sabrina is standing? I believe she was on the ground as well. And it's your testimony that you've, at this point, already been stabbed through the arm, right? Yes. And which arm were you stabbed in? This one. Okay. So then...
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You run into the kitchen and you lock Sabrina and Jacob in the garage?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No. I did not lock the door.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. You ran in and just closed the door?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And left them out there? Yes. Why, if you made it to the garage, why didn't you just keep running out of the house? I don't recall. You would have had to have run under this version... Jacob and Sabrina come down those stops. They're fighting right there in front of the stairs. You would have had to have run right past them to go back through the door into the kitchen. Is that correct?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that's what you believe you did? Yes. And in fact, the garage door was even open at that time, wasn't it? I do not believe it was. No. You go back inside, it's your testimony you don't lock that door, but you run down the hallway and you go into Heason's bedroom, right? Yes. And you lock that door? Yes. And then you lock the bathroom door also? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have plans after work that night?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So now you've barricaded yourself behind two more locked doors, right? Yes. Now... You've identified Mr. Kerr here in court today when we all removed our masks, right? Yes. And you were close enough, you say, to see his face. You said he did the stabbing, right? Yes. You told the police that the person had shoulder-length hair. Do you agree with that? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, we were going to have a friend come over and watch some TV and movies.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that the person was not wearing any mask at all, right? Yes. Okay. No attempt to conceal one's face whatsoever? Correct. And no facial hair, right? Correct. No, he had facial hair. Okay, do you remember facial hair? Yes. Were you present in court when your 911 call was played? No, I was not. Have you had a chance to listen to your 911 call prior to your testimony? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You would agree that in the 911 call, you were asked whether there was any facial hair and you said, not that I saw? I do not recall. And you don't remember what you said in that call, right? No. What do you mean? About facial hair. You don't recall what you said? No. But that 911 call is you trying to describe everything you're seeing at the time, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you say we, you mean you and Sabrina? Yes. Do you know what either Sabrina and Sonny's plans were for that day? No, I do not. Was Sabrina working at that time? I believe so. Where was she working? Perkins. Do you know if Sonny had a job? I do not think so. So what time did you actually get off of work that day? I believe 7.30. And how did you leave work that day? Sabrina picked me up.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is it your testimony that you believe you were stabbed in the kitchen area? That's where you remember being stabbed? Yes. Before you went into the garage area, right? Yes. And did you ever... You had your knife in your pocket this whole time, right? Yes. And it's your testimony you never utilized that knife in any way, right? Correct. Why didn't you pull the knife out to fend off the perpetrator?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I didn't think about it. When you were... One minute, please, Your Honor. I want to just ask a few more questions, touch on a couple other things with you, sir. Going back to Sonny, the mother, liking you... Are you aware that Sabrina had a sister, Sarah May? Yes. And did you have contact and interaction with Sarah May?
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Not that I can recall.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you aware of the mother's boyfriend, Raymond? Is that somebody you were familiar with? Yes. Sonny had a boyfriend named Raymond, right? Yes. And were you... Were you aware of anything Sonny had said to Raymond about not liking you?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Going to the interview you did with the police at the hospital, you would agree that your written statement is a much shorter version than what was discussed over the 30 minutes or so that you talked to the officers, right? Yes. In other words, you were getting medical treatment and they were present talking to you during that time, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They were trying to understand what you believe happened, what you saw in the house, right? That was the whole point of the questioning? Yes. And do you remember an officer named Officer Ehrenstein? Is that somebody that you're familiar with? I do not recall, no. Do you know the names of the officers who were interviewing you? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Would you agree that you told the officers that the last time you saw Sabrina, she was in the garage on top of Jacob holding him down? Do you remember telling the officers that? No, I do not. As you sit here today, it's your recollection that she wasn't holding him down, he was just down on the ground, and that's when you ran from the garage? Correct. If he had a shovel...
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and you had knocked him down to the ground, why would you just run into the house and not keep hitting the person? I don't know. That's all. Thank you.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Any redirects?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You were asked about the garage door and whether that garage door was open or closed. When you recall going out to the garage to get the shovel, do you believe the garage door was open or closed at that point? Closed. Do you recall actually closing it or someone closing the garage door when you came in? Yes. And do you know who did that? I believe I pushed the button to close it.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the button to open and close the door, where is that located? Right next to the door to the kitchen from the garage. Did you think about opening that door and running out before you went and grabbed the shovel? No, I did not. What was your purpose in grabbing the shovel? To fight.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And this was sort of described by defense as, well, you've got the shovel and you're standing over there in the corner just watching them struggle. I mean, was this a long period of time that you're standing there with the shovel before they come out the door? No. Is it fair to say that, in fact, all of this is happening very quickly? Yes. Is it a chaotic scene? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you do recall grabbing the shovel on the side of the garage, and then about how quickly after you went and grabbed the shovel, did Jacob and Sabrina come out of the garage? I'd say about five or ten seconds. So fairly quickly, they come right out? Yes. And then likewise, the physical struggle, the you striking Jacob and then running back in the house, does that happen fairly quickly? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It's just a general question. Are there things you would have done differently if you could do this all over again and you had the time to reason your way through how to respond to this attack? Absolutely. It's fair to say at that time this was just chaos and you just did what was on instinct? Yes. Again, Mr. Cotton showed you a brief written statement. It was one page, right? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what car was Sabrina driving? Her vehicle. And what kind of car was that, do you remember? Chevy Cobalt. I'm going to direct your attention back to Exhibit 1B1. Do you see that vehicle in the photograph? Yes. There's only one vehicle in the photograph, is that fair to say? Yes. So it's the vehicle parked in the driveway? Yes. Where did you go after Sabrina picked you up from work?
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Is it fair to say that everything that happened that night cannot really fairly be encapsulated in one page? Correct. Correct. And he talked to you about some of the inconsistencies, right? He talked to you about who got stabbed first, whether both of you went over to the bathroom to see his son in the bathroom.
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In your mind, is the big picture, the vast majority of what happened, has that been relatively consistent throughout this? Yes. Any questions, Your Honor? I don't know that I let him. I asked if it was, and he could say yes or no.
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I don't think that was a leading question. I'm going to overrule the objection.
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Do you know if in every one of your statements you said Mr. K.R. jumped out of the laundry room and attacked you? I believe so, yes. The weapon that Mr. K.R. used, do you know if that was consistent in all of your statements? Yes, I believe so. Can you tell us a little bit about that knife? Do you remember the knife itself? Yes, I believe it was a chef's knife.
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In terms of the size of the knife, do you remember any of the size of the knife? About that big. Are you familiar with a standard kitchen knife set? Yes. Would this be one of the small knives or one of the large knives? One of the large knives. As it compares to your folding knife, was it bigger or smaller?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Much bigger.
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Do you recall if in every one of your statements you remember that you struck Mr. K with a shovel? Yes. Do you recall if in every one of your statements that... happened in the garage? Yes. Is it possible that in one of the statements that wasn't actually consistent? I do not believe so. As you sit here today, where did that contact take place? In the garage.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In every one of your statements, do you describe Mr. Kerr as the person who did this? Yes. Is there any doubt in your mind that Mr. Kerr is the person who stabbed you and Sabrina? No. And you saw him stab Sabrina with your own eyes? Correct. Multiple times? Correct.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Clearly you saw him stab yourself? Yes. Again, these are leading questions I'm objecting because he's giving the answer.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Can you rephrase the question?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'll withdraw that question. At any point in time, did you see anyone else in the house other than Mr. Kher, Sabrina, and Issa? No. And to be clear, I'm talking about on the evening of June 7th, 2016. Correct. Before law enforcement arrived. Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No further questions, right?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Any requests?
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Are you aware that Sabrina's body was eventually found next to the house? Are you aware of that? Yes. Outside of the garage, right? Yes. So in terms of the garage doors, it must have been open for Sabrina to get out of the garage, right?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. Okay. That's all. Do you know when that garage door became open? I do not know. It's your testimony here today that the garage door was... Do you recall when you were in the garage having contact with Mr. K or the shovel, do you believe it was open or closed? Closed. Nothing further.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Chankita is going to start off by asking you what is your current occupation?
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I am a forensic anthropologist as my occupation. I am currently the chief medical examiner of Dane, Rock, Brown, Door in Oconto counties of Wisconsin.
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Dr. Tranquita, I'm going to go back and ask you some questions then. I'm at the June 9th, 2016, during the morning hours. Did you have an opportunity to perform an autopsy on Sabrina Teague? Yes, I did. Approximate time of the autopsy, it looks like 8.46 AM. I believe that's when we started. When you do an autopsy, do you have a certain
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a protocol, a way you like to go through it every time so you're consistent? I do. And... Could you tell the jury, is there a certain way that you perform Sabrina Teague's exam? For example, do you first look at the external part of the body and then move to internal? How kind of can you just tell them in general the procedure you used before we go into specifics?
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Of course, very generally. We generally begin with an examination of the external aspect of the body within the body bag or the container to document whatever writing or whatever identification is present on the outside of the bag to make sure that the security seal that is sealing the bag is intact. and to make sure that any writing is identified and documented.
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The bag is opened, and then we begin the external examination of the body. In forensic pathology, the external examination of the body is just as critical as the internal portion of the body. I'm looking at the external aspect of the body to document any injuries, any features of the body, any trauma. I'm also photographing, measuring, and documenting with scale. I collect external evidences
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I do swabs for DNA. I collect specimens for toxicology. I try to see if there's any kind of residue that might give me an indicator of who may have committed this or who may have done this. We may also take x-rays as well at this point, especially if there's a kind of penetrating injury.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Once all that is done, I then proceed to the internal portion of the autopsy examination, which is what most people think about when they think about an autopsy. The internal portion of an autopsy examination is the surgical evaluation of the organ systems of the body to see what has been injured and what disease processes may be present.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After you went through step by step the autopsy of Sabrina Teague, do you eventually compile all the information you received, notes and your observations and put it into a report?
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Yes, I do. The report is composed of not only the summary of the findings, but also the diagrams and the photographs that are created as, that accompany the report. Okay.
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Did I ask the court's continuing permission to approach during his testimony?
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Yes, you may.
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Thank you for your documents labeled exhibit number 10. You just peruse the document as you're doing, Doctor, and then I have a couple questions for you. Exhibit number 10, could you indicate to the jury what is exhibit 10?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Exhibit number 10 is a copy of the report that was generated by our office on the death of Sabrina Teague. It includes the autopsy report, the notes that were generated during the process of making the report, the diagrams from the report, the toxicology report, about the people in attendance, and those sorts of documents.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what happened after you left Walmart? We went home. And did you go anywhere else in between, from leaving work, Walmart, and then home? No. And do you know about what time you got back to 1368 Riverdale Drive? About 7.50. Eight. Fifty or eight? Yes. When you arrived home, where did she park the car? In the driveway, right in front of the garage door.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranchitti, I'd like to then just begin to go through some of the items noted in your report of the autopsy of Sabrina Teague. What I'd like to do is to Start from the beginning. I'd like to go through the final diagnosis. It's listed on pages 1 and 2 of the autopsy report. And just chronologically go through this.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm going to start then by looking at the first one listed on your report, stab wounds. First, stab wounds, I want you to list the stab wounds you've noted to the head of Sabrina Teague.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I noted two stab wounds to the head of Sabrina Teague. The first was located on the left cheek. This went deeply into the left cheek. It went through the skin, soft tissues, and muscles of the left cheek. It hit the left parotid gland, which is one of the salivary glands in the cheek, and then went into the mouth and struck her tongue.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And could you... indicate the other stab wound to the head.
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That's correct. There was another stab wound to the chin. This went into the skin and soft tissues of the chin and struck the mandible or the jaw.
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Dr. Tranchito, what I'm showing you on the screen has been marked 1M, number 1, as far as exhibit. A particular photograph that's up on the screen, would you indicate, describe what it is, Dr.?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When I perform an autopsy, I try to document, in as many different ways as I can, the features that I'm seeing of the body, in order to convey to the reader what I'm seeing both in diagram form, in measurements, but also in photographs. In this case, this is an overhead view of the decedent Sabrina Antique.
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She has a number of sharp force injuries, which are depicted in this photograph, and I've placed a small label next to each of the injuries to help categorize them or list them in sequence as we describe them. In this case... If I may? Yes. The stab wound that we first described, or stab wound A, is located on her left cheek.
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This is the stab wound that went through the left cheek, went through the left parotid gland, and went into her tongue. Stab wound B, the next one going down, is located on her chin. This went through the skin, the soft tissues, and hit the mandible, or the jaw, of Sabrina Teague.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, and I'd like to continue in your final diagnosis of injuries to Sabrina Teague, going through the injuries to her torso.
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As we go down to the neck stab wound, there was a stab wound of the base of the anterior neck. This was stab wound C. This was a superficial stab wound. It went into the skin, the soft tissues, but it didn't go very deeply into the chest cavity. Stab wound D. Actually, I believe this was C. I believe this is stab wound D. This one went into the chest just below the left clavicle.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is also a superficial stab wound. Okay. Superficial, yeah, stab wound E is going into the upper aspect of the right side of the chest below the right clavicle. And this was a very deep stab wound. The stab wound went through the right ribs, two and three, on the right side. The stab wound also went through the right lung.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The stab wound hit the pericardial sac, which is a membrane sac that surrounds the heart. And the stab wound hit the aorta, which is the largest artery in the body. This was a fairly deep and significant stab wound. The next stab wound going down is directly overlying the sternum. This baboon hits the sternum, the left rib number four. It hits the pericardial sac.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Again, that's the sac that surrounds and protects the heart. And then it hit the heart as well, striking the decedent in the right ventricle. This was also a very deep, very life-threatening stab wound. We had a stab wound. The last stab wound in the front of the body is stab wound G. This entered the midline of the upper aspect of the abdomen. This stab wound hit the decedent's diaphragm.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This hit the left lobe of her liver, and it hits the omentum, which is a structure which protects and covers the intestinal tract.
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I can then show you another photograph, Doctor, and it's 1M2. It would be a little easier, I think, to see C and D, so I apologize for that.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This stab wound is a close-up of the area of the decedent's head and neck. You can see very nicely stab wound A, stab wound B, stab wound C, E, E, and F. Again, stab wounds C and D are very superficial. Stab wound A goes through the cheek into the mouth. Stab wound B hits your jaw. Stab wound E goes into the torso, hits ribs, hits the lung, hits the pericardial sac and the aorta.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So is it consistent with the photograph that's being displayed that we previously addressed? Yes. Is that typically where Sabrina would park? Yes. Did Sonny have a vehicle? Yes. What kind of vehicle was that? A Chevy HHR. When you arrived home, was that vehicle at the residence? Yes. Where was it? In the garage. Do you know which stall of those three stalls? The middle stall.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Stab wound F goes through the sternum, through the ribs, through the pericardial sac, and into the heart.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm going to continue with going through different areas on her body. I'm going to go to stab wounds on the back area. So I'm going to show the next picture, which is 1M3.
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Stab wound H, the higher up one, is described as a stab wound on the left side of the upper aspect of the back. This stab wound goes to the skin, soft tissues, and muscle, but doesn't penetrate into the chest cavity. Stab wound I also goes through the skin, soft tissues, and muscle of the right side of the middle aspect of the back.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So if you divide that back down the midline, and you divide in upper, middle, and lower back, this is the right side of the middle aspect of the back. This is the left side of the upper aspect of the back. So stab wound I goes through the skin, soft tissues, and muscle, but doesn't penetrate into the chest cavity.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Stab wound J is described as a stab wound of the left side of the lower aspect of the back. This is a fairly deep stab wound. This goes through the thick skin, soft tissues, and muscle. This goes through the left side of the diaphragm, and this stab wound injures the left kidney.
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Because we're on this particular photograph, doctor, this 1M3, and of course we can see another injury to Ms. Teague's left side of her neck. Since the photo's up there, can we talk a little bit about that particular injury?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course. This is an incised wound here on the posterior and lateral aspect of Sabrina Teague's neck. This is cutting into the underlying subcutaneous soft tissue. So it's very long on the skin surface, but it's just going to the level of the subcutaneous fat. This is an incised wound, or a cut, into the back and side of Sabrina Teague's neck.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I believe, Dr. Tranquilla, that we've covered on your final diagnosis all the different stab wounds listed to the head and torso, the different injuries you noted to Sabrina Teague. I'd like to kind of go to page two of your complete report in exhibit 10, where you start to list some incised wounds. I know you described what an incised wound is, longer on the surface rather than deeper.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Could we list some of those for the jury that you observed on Sabrina T?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course. So again, we described incised wounds as longer on the skin surface and they are deep into the body. Another way to think about them as cuts as opposed to stabs. Sabrina Teague had about five incised wounds. And the first was on the right side of the underside of her chin.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And this was a superficial cut, but it was an evidence of sharp force trauma being applied, or an object with a sharp edge being applied to the right side of the underside of her chin. We showed one of the other ones earlier as well, the incised wound on the back and left side of Sabrina Teague's neck. This was a long incised wound or long cut that just penetrated to the level of the soft tissue.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition, Sabrina Teague had an incised wound. on the dorsal surface of her left forearm. She had a cut on the dorsal surface of the forearm from the elbow, the forearm we consider from the elbow to the wrist, and she had a cut on the dorsal surface of the forearm. Also, she had a cut on the volar or palmar aspect of the left thumb. That's A, B, C, and D. C and D are super
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you think that vehicle was in the middle stall when you arrived? Yes. Were there any other vehicles on scene that you observed? No. May I ask you if you can recall specifically how you entered the home that night? He went in through the garage and the side door to the garage. So you walked in the garage door, and then is there an entryway from the garage into the home? Yes.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We also have the incised wound, that superficial inside of the wound of the underside of the chin is depicted in that diagram as well. Also there are abrasions or scrapes or scratches of the left side of the seat's forehead and the chin also. Also the incised wound of the posterior aspect of the left side of the neck, which we saw earlier in the other photograph as well.
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These are diagrams of the decedent's hands, both the dorsal or knuckle side and the palmar sides as well, both the left and the right hands. The decedent had an abrasion on the dorsal aspect of the proximal phalange of the right index finger. This is the incised wound on the palmar aspect of the thumb of the left hand, or cut on the palmar aspect of the thumb of the left hand.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition, shed a small hematoma or blood blister on the palmar aspect of the ring finger of the left hand.
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Again, continuing with your report, Exhibit 10, after you listed the incised wounds, you have a section that lists blunt force trauma, head, torso, and extremities. I'd like to see if we could just go through those injuries you observed on Sabrina Teague's body.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course, once again, blunt force trauma is trauma that is caused by impacting or being impacted by an object that doesn't have a sharp force, a sharp edge. In other words, a blunt surface. This can be as broad as anything from a fist, a foot, or a door, or a wall, or a tree. Basically, it's something that doesn't have a blunt force edge.
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Sometimes these impacts can leave a pattern, but many times they don't. We try to categorize them in abrasions, superficial scrapes or scratches of the skin, contusions, where the skin is intact but we have bleeding underneath the skin surface, or a bruise, or lacerations. Laceration are tears or rips in the skin caused by the application of blood force.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In her case, she had abrasions and contusions, so scrapes and bruises. Starting with the head, We saw that she had a linear scrape or scratch on the upper aspect of the left side of the forehead. She also had another abrasion on the right side of the chin. And she had another abrasion on the underside of the chin as well.
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Can you tell us how that happened? Meet me. And did you start a relationship with her? Yes. Do you know about what time, what year you began that relationship with Sabrina? December 2015. And how did your relationship progress with Sabrina?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
On the torso, she had an abrasion on the midline of the upper aspect of the back. So the upper back at the middle of the back. And she had two abrasions of the posterior aspect or back of the left hip. Now, these abrasions had a possible pattern. They were crescent-shaped, or like the shape of a crescent moon. These are very consistent or suggestive of fingernail scratches into the skin.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She had a small contusion, or that blood blister, of the palmar aspect of her left hand. I'm sorry, the palmar aspect of the left index finger, left wing finger. She had an abrasion or scratch on the dorsal aspect of the proximal phalange of the right ring finger. And then she had a number of abrasions on the left thigh, left leg, and left ankle.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then she had additional abrasions on the right thigh, right knee, right leg, and right foot.
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Dr. Trinke, the only one I see we really didn't cover, and there's quite a few, are... Under the blunt force trauma section head, oh, there's one contusion. I apologize.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Could you please list that?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So in addition to the abrasions and the contusion described in the left hand, there was also another contusion on the left side of the frontal scalp. So the frontal scalp covers from just above the ear forward, and there was a contusion on the left side of the frontal scalp, or bruise.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that's the entryway that you took? Yes. Was that typical? Yes. Did you utilize the front door often? No. When you arrived through the garage, did you notice anything unusual upon entering the residence? Yes, there was a bottle of water spilled on the floor. Well, I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B2.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranchita, after completing your autopsy of Sabrina Teague and putting together, starting to prepare your report, do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty it's a cause of death of Sabrina Teague?
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What is that?
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To a reasonable degree of medical certainty, I believe that the cause of death of Sabrina Teague is the stab wounds of the torso, as these penetrated deeply into the body, perforating her lung, her aorta, and her heart, her diaphragm, her liver. These were significant life-threatening injuries, causing collapse of her lung, significant internal hemorrhaging, and ultimately death.
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Now to my final question then. Based on a reasonable degree of medical certainty, do you have an opinion as to the manner of death for Sabrina Teague?
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What is that opinion, Doctor?
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To a reasonable degree of medical certainty, I believe that the manner of death for Sabrina Teague is homicide.
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Dr. Trinchita, on the same date that you completed Sabrina Teague's autopsy, did you have an opportunity to perform an autopsy in the body of his son Teague as well? Yes, I did. And on that date, June 9, 2016, do you believe it was in the afternoon hours that you completed the autopsy for Ms. Heesun Teague? Yes, I did.
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I'm going to show you, Doctor, I'd like to go through the same procedure that we did for Suprena Teague's autopsy for Heesun Teague. I'll show you what's been marked instead of number 11. through that document. Dr. Trinchini, did you have a chance to look through Exhibit 11?
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Yes, I did.
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Is that a copy of your autopsy report involving Isantig?
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Yes, it is.
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I'd like to go through again the same procedure. I'm going to begin on page 1, where it lists the final diagnosis involving the autopsy of Isantig. The very first category lists stab wounds, lists two of them. I'd like to start with those and go through injury by injury.
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Peace and Teague had a number of different modalities of injuries or types of injuries. The first they listed in the list of final diagnoses were her stab wounds. She had two stab wounds. The first was of her head. This struck the left temporal scalp. It went through the left temporal muscle or the muscle that sits on the left temporal scalp. And it went into the left temporal bone.
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It's another photograph, and I'm going to ask you to identify that photograph. That is the garage entrance. You'll notice on that garage entrance there appears to be quite a lot of chaos, blood evidence, things of that nature. Is that there when you arrived at the residence? Objection.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It did not penetrate through the temporal bone, however. The second stab wound was of her torso. This stab wound struck her in her left breast. This went through the left fourth rib. This went through the pericardial sac, that fibrous sac that protects the heart. And then it went into the heart, stabbing her in the heart, specifically the right ventricle.
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And Dr. Trinkita, I'm going to take a couple steps back. Did you... Do the same protocol or procedure that you did with Sabrina Teague's autopsy with his son. By that, I mean going to an external exam after you opened up the bag where her body was located, and then also go to an internal exam as well.
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That is correct.
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Now, again, doctor, those are the two injuries you listed for stab wounds. The next section is Roman numeral number two. endless incised wounds to Hisantig. Is that correct? That is correct. Could we go through those and indicate to the jury the incised wounds that you located on Hisantig's body?
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Of course. So once again, incised wounds are cuts. They're sharp force injuries that are longer on the skin surface than deep into the body. Hisantig had five incised wounds or five cuts. The first was of her left ear. This incised wound amputated or cut off the superior aspect of her left ear or the upper part of her left ear. She had another incised wound or cut on the left side of the forehead.
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She had another incised wound or cut on the left cheek. And then she had another incised wound or cut on the right jawline.
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Doctor, I would like to... continue and just go through the different injuries before I start to show pictures because I think when I start to show the photographs, there's going to be a combination of the different injuries, whether they're incised wounds or stab wounds, kind of together in blunt force trauma.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So I'm going to ask if we could just continue as in your report, the final diagnosis after incised wounds where it says compression of neck.
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Yes, sir. He, Santee, had injuries of the neck consistent with compression of the neck. I believe that there was both ligature, or using a cord, and manual compression of the neck, or using of the hands. A ligature was recovered from around Heeson Teague's neck, and there was a ligature furrow that was imprinted upon the skin of Heeson Teague's neck.
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In addition to these external injuries, this ligature furrow that was present on the neck There were also abrasions as well. But deeper into the neck structures, there were areas of muscular hemorrhage deep into the neck. This is very consistent with compression by fingertips or application of blunt force trauma to cause bruising and hemorrhage of the deep structures of the neck.
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So there was both ligature and manual strangulation of the neck. As a consequence of this, there were hemorrhages in the decedent's eyes, or petechial hemorrhages and vulvar hemorrhages.
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Can you rephrase the question? Okay.
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Essentially, when you apply pressure to the blood vessels in the neck, this causes the blood vessels in the eyes and the conjunctiva around the eyes to burst, causing hemorrhages in the soft tissues around the eyes.
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Dr. Tranchita, I'd like to see if you'd just define a couple of terms, a couple of words. Ligature and furrow.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There appear to be a lot of stains on the floor. There's a shovel tipped over. There are stains on the wall. Did you observe those stains and the shovel on the floor when you first entered the residence? No. I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B3. Can you identify that photograph? Yes, that is the kitchen and dining room. Of the residence at 1368? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
A ligature furrow, a ligature is a rope or cord. You want to think of a ligature as, from the Latin word ligare, something to tie. So anything that is a cord or a rope can be a ligature. A furrow is an indentation or impression or crushing injury of the neck such that a furrow is left behind in the skin after you remove the ligature.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The next section in your final diagnosis lists blunt force trauma of the head, torso, and extremities. I'd like to see if we can go through those injuries one by one.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Sabrina, I'm sorry, Heeson Teague had abrasions. contusions and lacerations of her head, torso, and extremities, very many of them. In addition, many of these were patterned injuries. In other words, impacts to the tissues of the body that left an imprint behind that we could describe to give some indication as to what instrument may have caused these injuries.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition to these external injuries, she had diffuse subgalial hemorrhage of her head. The galia is the soft tissue that sits on your head, under your scalp, but over your skull. This was diffusely hemorrhagic. In other words, it was all full of blood. She had subarachnoid hemorrhage over the brain. The surface of the brain is called the arachnoid membrane.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When the brain is injured, it can bleed. And this is called subarachnoid hemorrhage. So there was hemorrhage all over the surface of the brain on this membrane that surrounds and protects the brain. In addition, there was injury to the brain surface itself, the brain itself, not just the membrane covering the brain, but there were contusions of the cerebral surface.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
or cerebral contusions, contusions of the brain. There were lacerations and contusions, in other words, tears and bruising of the oral mucosa, or the inner aspects of both lips, indicative of blows of the lips. She had a number of fractures, including the frontal bone, including the left parietal bone, the nasal bones, and the mandible, or jaw. She had fractures of the sternum.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She had fractures of multiple ribs on both sides. She had a fracture of the cervical spine, or the neck was fractured. She had a fracture of the left radius bone, so one of the bones in her forearm. She had fractures of bones in her metacarpal bones, or the bones of the hands, of the left and right hands.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And she had fractures of the phalangeal bones, or the first section of each finger, of the left ring finger, left thumb, and right little finger. She also had a subbundle hematoma, or bleeding underneath the toenail, of the left third toe.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
One of the items listed, it says in item H, hemoaspiration. What does that term mean?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Hemoaspiration comes from hemo for blood and aspiration, aspirating or inhaling. Essentially, as a result of all these injuries to her head, she was bleeding into her airway, bleeding into the nose, bleeding to the sinuses, bleeding into the mouth. And she was inhaling this blood, so the blood was going into her airway.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So she was essentially aspirating or drowning in her own blood.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is a document, an anatomical document diagram of the anterior and posterior surfaces of the female bodies. is that the majority of injuries are going to be depicted in another diagram, just because there are so many injuries in the head that I'm unable to put them all in the sense of this diagram.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
However, in this diagram, I'm still able to show the two stab wounds, which are the first injuries that we described. The stab wound of the left pearl scalp, and this is located just behind the left ear. This is the one that's going through the ribs, through the pericardial sac, and into the heart.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition, in the remainder of the body and extremity diagrams, again, I put circles around the hands just to depict that there are so many injuries of the hands that I'm unable to include them in this diagram just for size and space. But elsewhere, I'm trying to show the injuries that are present on the torso, the injuries that are present on the arms.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
bilateral upper extremities, and the injuries that are present in bilateral lower extremities as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranchita, when you go to your report, starting on page 6 of exhibit 11, It goes through, there's a lot of them, the abrasions from the head and neck. I wonder if you could just maybe list, doctor, the number of abrasions to the head or neck of He-San Teague that were observed.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And there's a door in the back in the middle of that. Can you identify what that door is? That leads to the laundry room. And then there's a door to the right of that. What is that door? That is the garage door. And is that the door that you entered when you came into the house that evening on June 7th? Yes. Do you recall if the door to the laundry room was open or closed when you arrived? Closed.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There are almost two pages of injuries of the head and neck of He-San Teague. There are at least 14 separate abrasions. There are 14 separate contusions. There are at least 29 separate lacerations. Then we go into the internal injuries of his fatigue.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Dr. Tranchito, there are some places in your report, for example, on page 6, I'm going to pick one here, Under blunt force trauma, under head and neck, you'll have like number three, you'll say crescentic abrasion. And I think you told the jury earlier, crescentic means like a crescent moon. Correct.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What did you indicate that that can help you determine when there's an injury like an abrasion that's crescentic?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When we examine injuries, as a forensic pathologist, I'm trying to determine if there's any patterns or features of the injuries that can help investigators possibly identify a weapon that could be at the scene or recovered subsequently that might match the pattern of the injury that's created.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So a crescent-shaped injury is often very helpful because it indicates an object with some sort of rounded edge or a surface with some sort of rounded edge. In this case, there were a number of injuries that were present that had this crescentic pattern or circular pattern of the body.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So I was able to give the investigators, you may want to look for an object or an instrument that has a rounded or crescent-shaped edge.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Doctor, I'd like to continue in your report to page 8, where you again discuss the torso. And I'm wondering if you could just list the number of abrasions to His Antiques' torso.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were eight separate abrasions of His Antiques' torso. Again, many of these had patterned appearances, which I was able to relay to the investigators.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The same crescentic pattern?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Correct. And some had a more circular appearance, indicating an entire circular surface.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Contusions to the torso? Approximately how many can you see in your report to his body?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were at least 16 separate contusions or bruises to the torso.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It does list in your report the different fractures of the ribs, but I think you already discussed those earlier. On page 9, at the very bottom, it says left upper extremity. Left upper extremity, is that just the left arm?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Absolutely. Going from the left shoulder to the left hand. Entire left upper extremity.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Would you indicate on Heeson Teague's body, on her left upper extremity, approximate number of abrasions?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She had seven separate abrasions on her left upper extremity.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then contusions?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Contusions, there were... four separate contusions. However, one of them I want to emphasize is fairly extensive. It involves the entire posterior aspect of the left elbow, the dorsal aspect of the left arm, the left wrist, the left hand, and the left fingers. So it's not just one focal bruise. The entire area is diffusely bruised.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And Dr. Tranchito, why do you describe that one as significant? Just because of the area damage, the large area?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Correct. By the numbers, I don't want to convey. I think when most people think of a bruise, you tend to think of a small focus of bruising. By full bruising, I just mean number, not size. This bruise that was confluent or diffusely covering the left forearm, left elbow, left hand is one very large bruise.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And if we continue with the left upper extremity, the number of lacerations to the upper extremity or arm?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What kind of door is the door to the laundry room? Sliding door. Is it typical for that door to be closed? No. Did you notice it when you initially came in the residence that it was closed? No. You'll also see some staining on the floor and what appears to be some disruption throughout the kitchen. Do you know, was that staining present when you initially entered the residence that night? No.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
there were three separate lacerations or tears or rips of the skin of the left upper extremity.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Again, next in your report, I think you've already covered the fractures. Could you list on the right upper extremity the number of contusions observed?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were eight separate contusions in the right upper extremity. Again, I want to emphasize that one of these contusions is a large contusion that covers the dorsal aspect of the right hand, the fingers of the right hand. It's a fairly extensive injury that involved the entirety of the right hand.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition, two of the contusions are paired, or they are closely approximated together, and they are opposing arcs. These contusions were suggested in a pattern of possible bite mark of the arm.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The number of lacerations to the right upper extremity?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were four separate lacerations or tears of the skin of the right upper extremity. Okay.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The left lower extremity of the hyacinth is commonly referred to as the leg. What is that area? Am I correct, doctor?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The left lower extremity extends from pretty much the hip down to the foot.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The number of abrasions observed to hyacinth?
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There are three separate abrasions, including, again, a possible pattern abrasion. That's that imprint that allows me to give a possible indication of the instrument used.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that's, again, crescentic or kind of half-moon shape? Correct. This one was more circular. Circular. And then number of contusions on the left lower extremity? There were seven separate contusions on the left lower extremity. Let's move on finally to the right lower extremity of East Antique. A number of abrasions.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were two abrasions of the right lower extremity.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And a number of contusions to that right lower extremity.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were four separate contusions of the right lower extremity.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Page 2 of Incident 12, can you indicate what is depicted in the abrasion?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Of course. As we said earlier, I reasonably put a circle around the body diagram's heads. The earlier diagram was just because there were so many injuries of the head that there just wasn't enough room to depict them individually. Depicted in this diagram are the stab wounds, abrasions, contusions, and lacerations of He-San Teague's head. The stab wounds are visible.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Let's see if you can see them very well. Here's a depiction. I think I drew this manually. I apologize for my artwork. But this is the decedent's left ear. Stab wound A was located just behind the decedent's left ear. There are a number of incised wounds as well. The first one, of course, is the one that transects or cuts off the upper aspect of her left ear.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There's also an incised wound of the left cheek. and incised wounds of the right cheek as well, and I believe there was also an incised wound of the left side of the forehead. Then, in areas with hash marks, these are all different areas of bruising or contusions. These are all bruises that have been inflicted upon this antique's head.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Some of these have a pattern appearance, a circular appearance, or quiescentic sort of appearances. Then these jagged injuries, or lacerations, or tears, or rips in the deceased's tissues caused by application of workforce trauma. She also, in addition to the skin, she also had oral mucosal bruising and tears, or contusions and lacerations.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then as we described earlier, there's a number of skull fractures as well, which are depicted in another diagram also. This is the diagram. Page three. In page 3, can everyone hear me okay? Thank you. Underneath some of the lacerations, there were fractures present. And these are crescent-shaped fractures.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Again, very helpful because they help me tell that this object that caused this must have a rounded edge. There were crescent-shaped divots or fractures of the frontal bone, or the bone of the front of the skull, and the left parietal bone, or the bone of the side of the skull. Now, these impacts were so hard that they also caused fractures of the base of the skull.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you did not see any staining on the floor when you first came in? No. Okay. So what happened then after you entered the residence? What do you mean? What happened? I think you said you observed some water spilled on the floor. So then what happened?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you remove the skull cap and you remove the brain, this is the base of the skull where the brain sits. The spinal cord goes in here. Underneath both of these plates are the eyes, so these are referred to as the orbital plates. These are thin bones, and both of these were broken as well from impacts.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In addition, her nasal bone was broken, and she had a wedge-shaped fracture of her jaw right there. And these are the fractures depicted there. This is a side view from the left, depicting those fractures as well. There's another one there also. This is a lateral view of the decedent's body.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Again, I'm using the lateral diagrams to help depict some of the injuries that may not have been easy to show on the front and side views. These are depicting bruises to the side of the decedent's body. And these are also depicting some of the crescent-shaped impacts. In these cases, these are abrasions and confusions that are crescent-shaped or like a half moon on the side of the decedent's body.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So these are close-up diagrams of His Antiques hands, left and right, front and back. Again, the left hand contusion, or this hash mark, is going all the way up the forearm, all the way up to the elbow. This is extensive bruising going from the elbow to the hand. In addition, there are crescent-shaped lacerations of the dorsal aspects of our hand. This fingernail on the index finger is split.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There is a laceration on the palm of her hand as well, and there are also broken bones in the decedent's left hand. On the right hand as well, we have bruising of the back and the front, or the dorsal aspect and the palmar aspect of her left hand. There are lacerations of her hand as well, there and there, and she also has broken bones in her right hand as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
At this time, I'd like to see if we could just approach the state in the defense for a brief sidebar.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So ladies and gentlemen, this thing looks like a good time for us to take about a 15-minute break. The jury has returned to the courtroom. Do we have Dr. Tranchita?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Dr. Tranchita, I'd like to, before we complete the direct examination, ask you to show you a couple, several photographs and see if you can identify these for the jury. The first photograph I'd like to show you is 1M4. And could you, Dr. Trankeita, identify what is depicted in 1M4 up on the screen?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The shower was running, and Sabrina went to go check on her mother and found her in the bathroom, and there were stains all over the floor. And then that is when... He came out of the laundry room and attacked.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This was the ligature, a rope that was recovered from around He-San Teague's neck, the body of He-San Teague. It appears to be a yellow woven nylon sort of rope that was looped around, or looped through, rather, a gray metal hook. has created a man-fixed simple noose around the deceased's neck.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Now, Dr. Chankita, you've already discussed numerous injuries on East Antiques' body in various places that either had a complete circle shape or half-circle or crescentic type of shape like a crescent moon. I want to show you one specific photo. It would be 1M12. See if you could identify that jury.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
One M12 is depicting a crescent shaped abrasions. on the upper aspect of the left side of the scene's back, just on the medial aspect, or the closest part to the midline of the shoulder blade. In addition, there's a second, more circular, outlined circular abrasion. These are what we referred to earlier as our patterned abrasions.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In other words, these aren't just regular sort of shapes on the skin surface. there's a very kind of clearly defined shape to this injury, which might be helpful to indicate what sort of instrument or object caused, or surface caused these injuries.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Now, Dr. Trinkita, as part of your examination, a part of your autopsy in this case, did you have an opportunity to look at a tire iron that was displayed to you as part of this autopsy?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I did, and I referred to this tire iron on page 14 of the autopsy report. This was after the completion of the autopsy in a separate room. I examined a tire iron that was brought to me as a possible instrument.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'd like to show you just several more photographs at this time, starting with 1M13. Can you identify that photograph for the jury?
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This is the tire iron that was brought to me. This is a photograph that was taken by us. We have used a blue tray as a background. And this is our label from our medical examiner's office. It's a gray scale label that we can detect to see if there's an alteration to color. And it also has a scale on it as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The case number for this case is also included on the label, so we know which photograph goes with which case. This is the tire iron that was given. As you can see, it has a rounded edge. It has a chiseled edge, and the remainder of the tire iron is wrapped in what appears to be gray duct tape.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As you got to look at that tire iron depicted in this photograph, was there at least a red substance on portions of the duct tape as well? That is correct.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In particular, when there was dried red residue on the socket end of the tire iron as well as on the duct tape as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It went really well, and we were trying to get everything set up and start life together.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'd like to go forward to 1M14. Can you just describe it? It's more of a close-up. Can you describe that for the jury?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you go over to the bathroom to look to see what was in there at that time? No, I did not. Drawing your attention back to this photograph, that appears to be a kitchen island. Is that accurate? Yes. When you came in, where did you go? I was on the other side of the island. When you say the other side of the island, are you talking about the side where the table and chairs are or the other side?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is some of that tacky red substance residue that was present, consistent with blood, on the duct tape of the tie rod.
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And is this the end of it, or has the rounded area at the end of the tie rod? That is correct. Go to 1M15, or the close-up again.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is more towards the middle portion between the socket end and the chisel end of the tire iron. Again, the duct tape that's wrapped around the handle, if you will. And again, red residue droplets present on the duct tape.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Go forward to photograph 1M16.
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This is another close-up to, again, emphasize the presence of this red residue of droplets present on the duct tape. 1M17. This is the chisel portion of the tire iron. As you can see, it has a fairly sharper edge than the chisel portion, which is not covered with duct tape.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is a side view of the socket head of the tire wrench. Again, duct tape is covering the tire wrench almost all the way up to the socket head. And there's dried red residue on the socket head.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Final photograph, 1M19.
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This is an on-foss or head-on view of the socket head. The one thing that I want to emphasize is the rounded edge of the socket head of the tire wrench. In addition, there's also a hexagonal pattern imprinted on the inner aspect of the socket head. of the injuries. The curvature of the socket head is consistent with some of the pattern abrasions caused on the body.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And in addition, the edge of the hexagon is also indicated in some of the injuries as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So based on your view of the, of Hisantik's body and also your view of this, this tire iron object we're looking at, you indicated, you believe this tire iron is consistent with causing some of those injuries on her body.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's correct. I believe that during the assault of Hisantig, the ligature that was indicated earlier was used, and this tile iron is consistent with having been used as well.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'd like to go back to photo 1M12, and I'd like to see if we can zoom in, if we can zoom in any further. Can we do that? Okay. Okay. Dr. Tranchita, do you see the injury? It's on the right side of the photograph, the right side of Hisantique's kind of torso on her back. You can see that's the circle, is that correct?
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That's correct.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And can you actually see on the right side of the circle that hexagon or more of a straight edge? Absolutely. Well, then I'll just ask Dr. Tranchita, you describe what you see in that injury.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As we talked about earlier, we are seeing a pattern injury present on the seaman's body. Another part of the body is crescentic. In other words, only a portion of this rounded object has struck the seaman's body, so we're only seeing the crescent as opposed to the full moon or the full circle of the object.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In this injury, we can see that, again, one side is hit, causing a crescentic compression, but then a portion of the other side is present, creating a more complete circle. On the inner aspect of the circle, there appears to be a portion of a hexagonal image.
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Just finally, a couple final questions, Dr. Tranchita. Based on your autopsy, your observations, your training experience, do you have a reasonable degree of medical certainty an opinion as the cause of death of .
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Part 2: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The other side. And where did Sabrina go oriented on this photograph? The side with the table and chairs. I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B4. Can you describe what's in that photograph? That is the fridge and the laundry room at the house. There appears to be staining on the floor and the wall and on the refrigerator. Was that staining present when you entered the residence? No.
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And what is that opinion?
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I listed her cause of death as homicidal violence, including stab wounds of the torso, blunt force trauma of the head, torso extremities, and compression of the neck.
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Do you have, again, an opinion? You kind of already indicated homicidal. Do you have an opinion to a reasonable degree of medical certainty to the manner of death of Heath Santee based on everything that you place on the record today? I do. What is that opinion?
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I believe that the manner of death of Heath Santee is homicide.
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No further questions for Dr. Tranchita.
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Thank you. Cross-examination, Mr. Cotton?
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No questions. Thank you.
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Joel, I'm going to show you what's been marked as Exhibit 1B5. Can you identify that photograph and what it depicts? That is the kitchen and the island. Can you see the bathroom where his son was located in this photograph? Yes. And where is it on the photograph? By the stairwell. And which direction from the stairwell is it? Towards the right. Towards the right.
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So you dated her? Yes. And at some point in time, did you live with Sabrina? Yes. When did that happen? About a month after we got together. And where did you live with her? With her in her house. And do you know the address of that house? 1368 Riverdale Drive. Who else lived there with you? Her mother. And what was her mother's name? He's son. Did she have a nickname? Sonny. Sonny?
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So can you see into the bathroom very well in this photograph? No. So when you say that Sabrina went to go check on her mom, where did she go? Were you able to see the area where Sabrina went on this photograph? Yes. Can you describe that for the jury in a little more detail?
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She went back towards the back of the house on the stairwell, and then right there in the bathroom was right in front of it.
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After Sabrina looked into that bathroom, what did Sabrina do? She said, oh, my God, Mom, and then opened her phone to call 911. And did she stay in that area or did she move at all? She started walking back towards the door. Towards the door that you had entered? Yes. And where are you while that is happening? Standing by the island still. On this photograph, the left or the right of the island?
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Left. There is some, what appears to be staining on the floor on the left side of the island. Was that staining present when you entered the home that day? No. So what happened after Sabrina said, oh my God, pulled out her phone and then started walking toward your direction? And... He walked out of the laundry room and proceeded to attack us. When you say he, who are you talking about? Kaya.
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And do you know his first name? Jacob. At this point, Your Honor, I'm going to ask if Mr. Kennedy can identify the individual who he knows as Jacob Kaya. Before Mr. Kennedy makes any identification, I'm going to ask that... All of the members at council table and people in the first row remove their masks.
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Once everyone's mask is removed, Joel, I'm going to ask you if you see the person who you know as Jacob in court here today. Yes, I do. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. Do you see him? Yes, I do. Could you indicate for the record where he is seated and what he is wearing? There and a gray shirt. I would ask the record reflect that he has identified the defendant. The record will so reflect.
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Do you recall who Mr. Kayer attacked first, you or Sabrina? Sabrina. And where was she located when Mr. Kayer attacked her? On the other side of the island, by the chairs. Do you know what he used to attack either of you? A kitchen knife. Could you see the knife in his hand? Yes. Do you know what hand it was in? Right, I believe. Did you actually see Mr. Kair stab Sabrina? Yes.
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And you indicated that he attacked you as well. Do you know when that happened in relation to when he attacked Sabrina?
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I believe he went after her first and then came over to attack me.
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When he attacked you, where were you? I was still standing on the other side of the island. Were you standing roughly in the location where the staining is located? Yes. You said Sabrina had her phone out. What happened with the phone? I believe he slapped it out of her hand. And do you know if she actually successfully called 911? I do not think so. When Mr. Akayer attacked you, what happened?
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I was standing by the island and he walked up and went to stab me and then I put my arm up and the blade went through my arm and into my chest. And then I fell back And started kicking at him and punching.
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And what did he do at that point when you started kicking at him and punching him?
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I believe he kind of walked away and started going after Sabrina again. What did you do?
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I went out into the garage. Through the same door that you had entered? Yes. What did you do when you got to the garage? I went and I grabbed a shovel. And once you grabbed the shovel, where did you go to grab the shovel in the garage? On the other side of the garage. That garage, when we looked in exhibit, 1B1, we could see that the garage has three stalls. Yes.
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Is that what everybody called her, Sonny? Yes. You too? Yes. And you said that shortly after you were dating, you were living with her, everything was going pretty well in your relationship? Yes. Joel, I'm going to show you what's been previously marked as Exhibit 1B1. Can you see it on this screen in front of you here? Mr. Kennedy, can you identify what's in that photograph? That is the house.
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Orienting from that photograph, what location of the garage was the shovel found in? I'll bring that photograph back up for you here. The furthest right stall. So the shovel was near there? Yes. So you ran across the entire garage to get it? Yes. When you grabbed that shovel, what did you do then? They were...
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following me out into the garage, fighting the entire time. And then I struck him here with the shovel. Where did you strike him? I believe in the face. And what happened then? They fell down, and I ran inside the house and locked the doors and called 911.
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That message was sent on April 9th, 2016 at 2126 Universal Coordinated Time. The message read, please contact me at 352-801-0941.
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Yes, it was.
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Is that a photograph from this commitment ceremony? That is. Is this a true and accurate depiction of the ceremony on that day, December 31st, 2000?
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And then is there something that indicates that Vanessa Townsend should receive something out there? Yes. When was that sent and what was the content of that message?
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All right, this time the seat moves CCC into evidence as the next exhibit.
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On April 11, 2016, the message stated your special delivery is to arrive today. Hope to finally hear back from you.
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Any objection?
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Yes, sir. So at the time you were doing this ceremony in this fashion in front of your friends and family, you're saying that you had not represented this as a way.
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When you went back to the IP logs, were you able to find consistent IP shared history on February 25th from the Michael Shaver account and the Lori Shaver account? Yes, I was. Can you go ahead and describe to the jury the information that we have here?
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As part of the records that you looked into, did you seek out information and documents from Facebook?
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That we told everybody it was a ceremony, correct.
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Now, in 2018, law enforcement responds to your call. and eventually skeletal remains are found in your backyard. Do you remember that?
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These are the Facebook records that we received, the IP activity log that was put into the summary. This is Michael Shaver on this side, Lori Shaver on this side. The purple highlight is all from the same IP addresses, and it all shows the dates and times of what activity was conducted.
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And at that time, did you ask Ms. Shaver how that body got there? I did not. So this person that you were in this committed relationship with that had told you that her husband had just left, just had no contact with the kids, there's a body found in the backyard, and you don't ask her a single question?
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Is there activity from Michael Shaver's account using that IP address on the day that these messages start being sent? Yes, there is.
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Now, at some point, law enforcement had come on to the property for a couple of days executing a search warrant. Were you aware or did you ever see that activity? Yes. Do you remember when the purchase of that weapon was in relation to that search?
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And what was the date and time? That was February 25, 2016 at 21.57 Eastern Time.
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That's not exactly what happened. Lori called me on the day that the detective showed up at the house. I was at work. I had just gotten off work and she called me sobbing, crying, and I asked her what was wrong. She proceeded to tell me that detectives had shown up at the house and they were asking about Michael. She then told me that they had left. I told her I will be home shortly.
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And then did Lori Shaver's account utilize that same IP address on that same day?
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Yes, it did.
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And what was that time? February 25th at 7.06 Eastern Time. When did Michael Shaver's Facebook account have the most activity during the time frame that you were working? Sure, the most activity was concentrated around this time, the end of February 26th. To that extent, to the time frame that messages were being sent to Vanessa Townsend. Yes, sir.
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I worked real close to where we were living and I got home, walked in the house. As soon as I walked in the house, a detective knocked on the door. He proceeded to ask me if I knew anything about Michael. I said, no, I've never met him. I couldn't even tell you what he looked like if you showed me a picture. And which detectives did show me a picture. I was like, okay.
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What was the time frame that you obtained these Facebook records and IP addresses for both the White Chamber and the White Chamber account?
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We tried to go back to...
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2014 until whatever the time was that we got these records sometime in 2018. Is it fair to say that this shared IP history extends from November 2015 to November 2017? Yes. And going through the time frame in April, once the flowers are received, is that when the majority of the activity appears on this fellow white illustrator's account?
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They just told me, we'll be in touch. And that was that. I walked back in the house. I told Lori, I said, it looks like something serious is going on. You need to get an attorney.
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Yes, I did.
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But specifically, you did not ask her anything about the fact that that body was from the backyard? Correct. Do you remember ever saying that at one point you did ask her about it and she said she had no idea about it?
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And in order to obtain records from Facebook, how do you go about doing that?
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We're publishing page 27 and 28 of the history of the summary, sorry. And can you summarize the types of activity that you're seeing on the Michael Shaver account and talk about how that relates to Lori's share?
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No, sir. No.
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After the body was discovered, did you speak with law enforcement?
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Sure. So according to the summary, it looks like once a day, Michael Shaver's Facebook account will back up. Using the same IP address that Lori Shaver's account was also accessing while Lori Shaver was uploading photos.
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I had multiple conversations with law enforcement.
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Did you ever make the statement relaying from Ms. Chambers that it is not that he is missing and it's that he is no longer walking the face of this earth? Have you ever made that statement to law enforcement?
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Now, during this time frame, is this when Facebook messages are being sent to Vanessa Townsend prior to the flowers actually arriving at Vanessa Townsend's work?
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Thank you for bringing that up because there's a point of clarification. I understand what you're saying.
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Please don't argue. Please answer the question.
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And these are the time frames that the messages were not being responded to? Correct. Is Lori Shaver's account utilizing the same IP address throughout that same time frame? Yes, it is. Moving on to pages 29 and 30 from the summary, does this activity reflect actions that happened after the flowers had been received? Yes, it does. And what type of activity is being reflected here?
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I did not make that statement.
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You never made that statement to law?
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Not exactly as you're saying it, no.
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Did you ever make that statement to Robert Croker?
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We have to get a search warrant.
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Not as you're saying it, no.
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Who is Robert Croker?
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He's somebody that I have done work for.
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Is he a friend of yours?
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Have you known him for a long time?
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Did you prepare warrants to get information for a Facebook profile associated with a Michael Schaefer?
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I have known of him for a long time.
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You have no issues with him, though?
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You are now officially married to Ms. Schaefer, correct? Correct. When did that occur? 2020. Do you have any children with her? I do. How many? Two. What are their names?
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So this activity, there are photos that are being uploaded, but there are also photos that are being sent.
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Now, when it says photo, does that differentiate between actual picture and then screenshots of text messages? It does not differentiate. And during this timeframe of all this activity on the Michael Shaver Facebook account, are there large number of photos and share, basically screen captures of text messages between Lori Shaver and Jeremy Townsend's future Vanessa Townsend? Yes, sir.
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Aralyn and Samuel.
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Has your relationship with your brother and your family changed in any way since you started a relationship with Ms. Shane?
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Not since I started a relationship with her since this investigation started.
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Has there ever been a time where Ms. Shaver used your phone to text your brother or she was acting as if she was you?
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Moving on to page 31 and 32 of the summary, what is the activity?
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Not to my knowledge.
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Have you ever told anyone that she did that?
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So it's very similar. You have logins. This one says that there were 40 photos that were sent, 8 photos sent, another login, 16 photos sent, 29 photos sent, 30 photos sent.
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Approximately three months, two to three months beforehand. And did you end up purchasing that weapon?
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Nothing further, Ted.
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Mr. Wiggs. Yes, please. Travis, let's start with one of the last issues that the state was asking you, not some statement. The statement was implying you had made some statement possibly that Lori made about willing to stop walking this earth, something of that nature. Tell us the circumstances of any questioning by law enforcement.
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Pages 33 and 34, this is still all the same day as the previous page?
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Yes, it is.
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All right. And what is the activity here?
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Yes, I did.
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44 photos sent 29, 15, 31, 44, 31, 27 photos sent.
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I'm sure. already been entered into evidence in the state's exhibit number 10. Some drive in that envelope. Can you go ahead and take a look at that? And state's number 10 are those in Facebook records that you obtained from Facebook.
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And moving on to page 35 and 36, are we seeing activity both on Michael Schamer Facebook and on Lori Schamer Facebook utilizing that same IP address? Yes, we are. 37 and 38, what information, first of all, what date, time frame are we talking about here?
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Law enforcement wanted to have an interview with me, and I did not want to speak with them. One of the detectives had told me that if I do not speak with them, I will feel the full force of the United States government. I ended up having a conversation with that detective. I told him that I was working for Mr. Proper and that him and I were sitting on the back of my truck at the time.
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April 22nd, 2016. This is the 23rd. This is the 24th. Okay.
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So this is basically everything that we have here as far as once this activity heightens up is from April 16th to April 24th. That's all this activity is just over. Now, on April 24th, does Lori Shaver's account start utilizing that same IP address that we've been talking about the whole time again? Yes, it does. Is there an entry at approximately 2,100 hours that is close in time to each other?
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And he asked me, what did I think was going on? And I proceeded to tell him that based on law enforcement's response, I didn't think that this was a welfare check. I didn't think that he was walking around anymore. I see.
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Yes. I'm going to show you what's been previously been marked as States Incident 4, identification. Without taking that out or anything like that, do you recognize that firearm?
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Now, tell me about, did law enforcement come out to the residents and say they were conducting a welfare check? I believe so. Okay. Did you confront or speak with law enforcement in the backyard about their presence and why they were there?
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Yes, there is. And what is the time difference between the activity on the Michael Shaver Facebook account and the Lori Shaver Facebook account on April 24th?
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No. The only time I spoke with law enforcement at the property was the day that they were doing their investigation. Okay.
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So this is about 2,100 to 2,100. So we've done minutes for the Mike Shaver and then Lori Shaver's account in the 2,130, 2,130.
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Did law enforcement question you in the yard whether or not you saw anything unusual or anything of that nature?
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That flurry of activity over that week where you kept on saying, this might be measures, this might be measures. How much actual data are you talking about that was sent to Vanessa Fowler? There were approximately 500 images that were sent, 40 of which were actual photos.
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During the interview, law enforcement asked me if I had ever seen anything unusual. And I pointed a place out in the very back of the yard and said, if I had to point something out, I would say this is, and it was a large mound. It was a large mound of dirt. So I pointed that out.
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The rest were screenshot with test images.
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The officer had the property pulled up on his phone, Google Earth, and he proceeded to point me towards the fireplace and asked me if there was anything unusual about the fireplace. I said, no. I said, the only thing that I've ever seen unusual is this very large amount of dirt in the back of the property. He then directed me back to the fireplace. And he did that a few times.
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Showing you states PPP for identification. Do you recognize those?
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Good morning.
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Can you please introduce yourself to the jury?
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Please introduce yourself to the jury.
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All right. Let's have a sideboard. Thank you. All right. Please proceed.
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Showing you what's been previously barred for identification of states PPP. Do you recognize those photos? Yes, I do. What are those photos?
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These photos are from Roy Shaver's Facebook account that were sent to...
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And just to go ahead and make sure there wasn't a misunderstanding or a technical mistake, the source of this information was from Michael Shaver's Facebook. Correct. And this is the information that was sent to Vanessa now, correct? Correct. This time, the state moves states PPP into evidence as states...
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And I just told him, I said, I have no idea what you're talking about. I see.
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Okay. So there was a period of time at which this patio was poured, correct? I'm sorry, say that again? There was a period of time, as the state referenced, about Megs are being rented, you and Lori pouring the patio, correct? Yes, sir. Okay. Now, the state has suggested... that this day to death was, I believe, around 9-12-16. Objection, Your Honor. Okay.
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Yes, I do.
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Yes, they are.
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Is that the firearm that you purchased from Orange?
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And when you obtain these types of records, are they sent to you, printed out in boxes, or how are they sent to you?
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Yes, sir. All right. Any further? Okay. Objection is overruled.
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These photos that are contained here are some of the photos that are in that unit that you just went through? Yes, they are. And on the left, do you recognize that individual? Yes, I do. And who is that? That's Lori Shaver. And on the right, do you recognize those individuals? Yes, I do. And who are they? Lori Shaver and Jeremy Townsend. Photographs identified as page 1145 and 1150. Who is that?
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Sidebar, please. There's an objection. All right. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, a specific date was stated on the record. Please disregard that date. Thank you.
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Thank you, Judge. So law enforcement directs you to this Patio, correct? Yes, sir. You helped lay the patio, correct? Yes, sir.
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1156, 1164.
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Jeremy Townsend and Lori Shaver. And 1193. Lori Shaver. 1196. Now, is that all the photos that were in that folder? No. That's just some of them for right now? Correct. All right. The last message from Michael Shaver's Facebook account to Vanessa Townsend, when was that posted? Last message was the end of 2016.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you see anything unusual as you laid the patio? No. When Lori and I first met the patio slash fireplace that is in question right now, the dirt was already graded out.
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And the color and other features of it are distinctive to you?
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the form of the fireplace was already there so there was concrete concrete bags in one of the sheds that was at the property when i met lori how long had they sat on the property to your knowledge i have no idea they were there several months or what after lori and i met yeah oh it was it was months months Did there appear to be any hurry to lay a patio? No, sir.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They're not. So Facebook has a law enforcement records request portal where they will upload all of that information to and we then download it in a zip folder because it's usually quite large.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there a message on September 20th of 2016 from the mining chamber account to the Vanessa Thompson account?
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In fact, the only reason why we decided to lay the patio was Isabel, Lori's oldest daughter, her birthday's in September. So we were going to have a large get-together, a birthday party, and the area around the fire pit was all mud. So we decided, well, the concrete's there in the shed. We're going to go ahead and lay that so people don't have to stand in mud during the celebration.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The colors match and very distinctive.
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And what was that message?
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The final message was on September 20th, and it says, Hi, Vanessa, how are you? Moving on, what's good on you? Hope you and your son are doing well.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Based on your review of the Ori Shaver Facebook records, were there pictures of the cement slab that was covering Michael Shaver's body prior to the September 20th date that that message was sent? Prior to that, yes, sir. And what was the IP address associated with that? 199.116.175.8. Now, did you also obtain bank records associated with Lori Shader? Yeah, I did.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The mixer that you rented, did you use a credit card or cash? I don't remember. It could have been either or. There wasn't any effort to try to conceal your whereabouts, disguise your presence in there, correct? No. Anybody substitute their presence for you? No, sir. Did you ask anybody other than taking care of this personally? No, sir.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After that purchase occurred, at some point, did law enforcement come to make contact with you and ask about this firearm? Correct. And at that time, did you turn this firearm over too long? I did. Your Honor, at this time of state move, states exhibit far into evidence that states 26.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Joining the defense, states tell L. Your Honor, at this time, the state moved states tell L into evidence. The defense is starting to search for people to attach. Just a quick approach.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you see evidence of any crime within the residence the whole time you were there? Never. One moment, please, Judge.
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Yes, sir. That's all I have.
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Thank you, Judge.
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Thank you, sir. Redirect. Yes, sir.
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All right, sidebar, please. Thank you.
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Can you please introduce yourself to the jury?
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I'm showing you states 40. Do you recognize those documents?
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Robert Bob Proper. I live in Groveland. I'm not sure what all you need.
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Do you know Travis Duller?
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Yes, I do.
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Sure. Good afternoon. I'm Corporal Jared Strickland with the Lake County Sheriff's Office.
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Good morning. I am Robert Seha. I am the owner and operator of the equestrian facility on the premises of the location that you guys were all talking about in this case, behind.
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And how do you know him?
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And one of them, right? These are three A's, B's, E's, they can have statements. Did Michael Shaver and Lori Shaver maintain separate pay accounts? They did. Was there activity contained within those records that showed payments to send through like the internet service provider that they have to sell? Yes, there was.
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Through my church, Real Life Christian Church.
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And how long have you known Mr. Duller?
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Since approximately 2013, 2014, something like that.
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And what is your relationship? A friend.
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I believe in mentoring and try to work with young men. And he's somebody that I met, and we became friends.
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Was there any sort of records associated with the purchase of flowers around the time that the flowers were sent to Vanessa Nelson? Yes, there was. And publishing... portion of that, exhibit the area in red. Can you go ahead and state the date of that?
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And through that, have you ever met Lori Shaver? Yes. Has there ever been a time frame where you would socialize with Travis Fulmer and Lori Shaver?
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Well, we did have some small group sessions together with other couples. We did financial counseling and some marital-type relationship counseling.
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And do they assign it any special number?
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The date that the transaction posted to the account was on April 8th. It says BB&T check card purchase from New Flowers. Transaction date was April 7th, and the amount of $42.98.
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Did you have any personal knowledge about when their relationship started or when they went in together or anything like that?
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Is it unusual in your experience, both personal and in investigating financial crimes, that the actual purchase would come on the bank records on a date other than the purchase date?
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Not specifically, no.
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And has she ever made any representations about what had happened with her prior husband?
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That she was divorced and he was gone.
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At some point, an investigation starts, and law enforcement is at the Shaver property, and the remains of Michael Shaver are found. Did you have any conversations with Travis Filmer about what was going on at that time?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The actual purchase that we are looking at here, is that consistent with the flowers that were sent to Vanessa Nelson? Yes, it is. The company that is reflected on there, is that a local business or is that an online company? From you, Flower Hill is an online company. So whoever is purchasing flowers through...
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, they do.
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Does that number appear in the records themselves?
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Not specifically about those actions. My interaction with him was a little bit different than that.
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that business would not be writing out a card or anything like that, but they include a message to be sent with the flowers. Correct. And then is that from you, flowers, do they then associate with local florists who do the taxable delivery? That's correct. He means this transaction associated with the local delivery of the flowers sent to Vanessa Townsend. Yeah, it is.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At any point did he tell you any statements about what Lori said about Kermit? Sidebar, please. Did Mr. Culver make a statement that he said represented the problem?
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What was that?
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We were discussing Mr. Shaver's disappearance and he made the statement basically that it wasn't a matter of he was missing, he was no longer walking the earth.
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Yes, it does.
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Does that number also appear on the business record certification that's included in that?
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Nothing further at this point.
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Mr. Wiggs. Hold on one second. Thank you. Just one moment, Mr. Wiggs.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, and just to be clear, as I did mention, that I'm going to be talking about Michael Shaver bank records. These DD&T records, do they indicate in there who this account belongs to? Yes, it does. And who does this account with the flower purchase belong to? This is Roy Shaver's account. Thank you, sir.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nothing further, Judge.
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All right, Mr. Wiggs. Yeah, please to the court. And was that Mr. Filmer's opinion?
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He's the one that told me.
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Yeah. He made some statement to you that, well, maybe he stopped walking this earth, right?
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He told me that it wasn't a matter of missing, that it was a matter of he wasn't walking the earth. That was what he said. That was his statement to me.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Anything further? No, sir. Mr. Weitz, please proceed. Thank you. Yes, sir.
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Did you just handle the digital data that you've just testified to in this case? Did I handle it? Yes, sir. Okay. Anybody else? Yes, sir. Pardon me? Yes, sir. Who was that?
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He speculated, right?
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His statement to me.
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And we renew our objection. It's not relevant. It's not frugitive to any mature effect in this case. This gun is not that linked to this crime in any form or any manner.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was his statement. Overruled. Please continue. I'm sorry?
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That's what you speculated his thought process was, correct?
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The entire team of investigators that were working this would have reviewed it at some point. Who was the lead officer on this case? There were several of us that could have been considered the lead detective. Who did the primary report? There were a few of us that did primary reports. Tell me everybody. Who was the primary on the case? I did very lengthy, several reports.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you get any statement in writing from the SAM?
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I had no need to.
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Did you have a counseling session with me?
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Yes, it does.
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I'm not a counselor. I'm a friend.
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Did you do any counseling?
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Not professionally.
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Did you do any prenatal counseling?
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Not professionally.
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Okay. Well, I mean, you don't hold a degree.
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Now, Lieutenant Tammy Dale also did lengthy primary reports, as well as Detective Dorrier also did primary lengthy reports. Okay. Anybody else? Yes, there were several. Okay. Who all? Sir, I couldn't name them all without seeing all of them. I know Detective Clay Watkins did reports. I know that the initial responding deputies did report. There were a multitude of people that did several reports.
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Do you unofficially hold yourself out and give any kind of counseling?
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I routinely meet with young men and older men. I'm doing that tonight.
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Records that we're dealing with there are on a thumb drive. Do we have over 3,000 ages on that thumb drive?
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Okay. So you do some counseling and some unofficially counseling?
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I would call it mentoring.
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Mentoring. Okay. That's what you call it. But whatever Travis said to you, stop talking to him. All right.
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Who handled all the digital data as to the officers involved?
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Just let him know. Just my word. Okay.
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All I'm doing is repeating what he's told me. Okay. I don't know what you mean by that, but I can... One person may watch TFR, are you mad at him? No, I'm not. He says he doesn't. No, I'm overruled.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So I can only attest to myself to maintain that chain of custody. Whenever I received those records, I was the one that was responsible for submitting it to evidence. Once it was put, typically back then, data was put on a CD. Once it was placed into evidence, I would have a working copy on my computer that would then be shared with the other detectives that were also working the case.
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But the records that they were, as they were received in their original format, I was responsible for those, and I can't speak to everybody else.
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Okay, thank you. You had mentioned early on that you were advised that the IP addresses were rolling accounts or rolling IP addresses, correct?
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Please proceed.
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Somebody may watch TV and see something on TV and interpret it a little different than the person seated next to him, correct?
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No, sir. What I advised was that CenturyLink only maintains subscriber records for one rolling calendar year. Rolling year.
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Certainly that can happen.
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Yes, correct.
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All right, the objection is overruled. Estates R will be entered into evidence. Estates number 26.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you very much. Thank you. Redirect. All right, please be seated. All right, sir, I'm going to make a preliminary inquiry. I'll swear you in.
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Okay. Now, what happens after an extended period of time? What happens to the IP addresses that are on record with the company? For CenturyLink, I don't know what they do with their records after a year.
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As you've gone through, after you've initialed it, you have gone through all of those records, looked at the pictures, things of that nature. Yes, I have. And as you went through that, are there pieces of information that identify the potential owner of that profile?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Please state and spell your full legal name. My name is Austin James Filmer, A-U-S-T-I-N-J-A-M-E-S-F-I-L-M-E-R. Please raise your right hand.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Do you know whether they expire, they're deleted? No. Anything that happens still? Sir, I do not know what happens to CenturyLink's record after a rolling calendar year.
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Do you solemnly swear or affirm that any testimony you give today shall be the truth, whole truth, nothing but the truth, so help you God? Yes, sir. All right, sir. And are you married? Yes, sir. Who is your wife?
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What do you know about Facebook? What happens to their records after an extended period of time?
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I don't know what their retention time frame is. However, we were able to go back at least four years in this case. Okay. With Facebook? Through Facebook, yes.
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Rebecca Urbanowski. Okay.
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So Rebecca Urbanowski, not Filmer.
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When you purchased this gun, no statements were made from Ms. Shaver indicating that use in any crime or any ill motive purpose, correct? Correct. Do you know if Ms. Shaver had ever sold any other items from her residence? Not to my knowledge. Okay. Now, did there come a time when you contacted Ms. Shaver advising her that you'd seen somebody trespassing on her property? Correct. Okay.
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Correct. She didn't take my last name.
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All right, sir. And... Have you at any time seen your wife, Rebecca Urbanowski, conducting any research regarding this case?
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Okay. Now, does Facebook, do their records go back and allow you to trace the records they have back to the physical address of the individual?
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Did you see your wife viewing any media concerning this case? No, sir. Have you done any research concerning this case? Have you viewed any media concerning this case? No, sir. Has your wife, Rebecca, spoken to you about conducting any research? In the case? No, sir. Has she spoken to you about commenting, making any comments on social media about the case? No, sir. All right.
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Facebook, I do not believe, collects address data.
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Okay. The registered address for the IP is a registered physical address, correct?
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The IP address that is provided by the internet service provider would be the subscriber information.
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And it would be registered to a physical address, correct? Correct. Okay. Now, after a period of time, do you know whether or not that data is deleted, expires or anything happens to it?
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And does the state wish to inquire? No, sir. Okay. Mr. Wiggs?
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No, sir. You know if your wife's looking at any social media?
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Some companies are different. Some companies, their records will expire sooner than others. Some companies keep their records for perpetuity. Do IP addresses change at all?
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No, sir. All right. Is that to the satisfaction of the parties? Yes. All right. Please introduce yourself.
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My name's Austin Filmer.
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Yes, they do. Okay. So IP addresses that may be out there for a period of time can actually change? Yes, they can. And identify or use somebody else's address, correct?
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You know Travis Filmer?
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How do you know him?
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He's my brother.
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Are you older or younger?
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We're twins.
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So are you older or younger?
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I'm four minutes older. All right. Do you know Lori Shaver? I do. And how do you know her? She's married to my brother. You see her in the front room and can you point her out? I do. She's sitting right there. Blonde hair, black jacket, polka dotted blouse.
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That is correct. Okay. Which is why the date and time stamp that is on the activity is so important.
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Okay. In this case... Were you able to link up an IP address with a physical address and a device? Not through CenturyLink, no. Okay. Not through CenturyLink. Were you able to link it up from Facebook to a physical address to a device? I think I was, yes. You think he was? Yes, sir. What do you mean? Tell me. What do you mean?
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Now, when did you first meet the defense?
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I was actually at my place of employment December 2015, I believe. And where do you work? I work at a fitness center in Claremont.
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At the time, what was that fitness center called?
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That was Gold's Gym at the time. And has it changed ownership? Not ownership, but names. What is its current name? Fitness CF.
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The same IP address that was used for Lori Shaver's account was also used on Mike Shaver's account. An IP address is a unique identifier that works similar to mailing a letter through the U.S. Postal Service. So if your address was constantly changing... There's a possibility that you would not get the mail that was intended for you and vice versa.
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Are you married? I am, yes. And what's your wife's name? Rebecca Urbanowski. Did she also work at that same facility at that time frame? Yes, sir, she did. What circumstances did you meet Lori Shaber?
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And how long have you been with the Lake County Sheriff's Office?
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My position at the time was to do an initial consultation for anyone joining the gym. So she was scheduled to do the first consultation with me, and I conducted the evaluation.
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That's why the date and time stamp that's on IP address logs are so important.
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Yes. This comes from Facebook.
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And approximately when was this?
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December 2015.
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And through that meeting, did your now wife end up becoming involved with a shamer? Yes. And under what capacity was that?
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Does Facebook identify with any degree of specificity what the Senator delivered your law enforcement?
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So again, my job was to do a fitness evaluation and then place the potential client with a personal trainer. And my wife was a personal trainer at the time.
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Yes, there is.
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They received a search warrant requesting IP address logs, messages, photos, transactional information, and other content for the Facebook unique identifier. In response to the warrant, Facebook Meta, as they're called now, provided responsive records on March 8, 2019, and those records were downloaded by me.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did they start basically working together as a client-trainer relationship? Yes, sir. Did they end up becoming friends? Yes. And at a certain point, did Rebecca move into Lori's home?
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What kind of information is there?
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Does it identify the records?
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When was that?
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It does by the Facebook user account number.
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Not long after. A month or two, maybe? Yeah, not long after.
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Okay. Does it identify the records themselves?
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So sometime early in 2016? Yes, sir, correct. At any point, did you live at that residence?
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Typically, there's a phone number as well as an email that's associated with that, along with what Facebook calls the vanity name, which is a unique identifier that cannot be changed within the Facebook records.
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By the user Facebook identity.
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By paragraph four, does it not state the records provided were an exact copy? Yes. Okay. But it doesn't tell you what the exact copy was there, does it? No, it does not. That we made and kept via automated systems. Doesn't tell you what was there, does it?
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Not per address, but I was there a lot, and I spent a lot of time there.
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And that was because your girlfriend at the time was living there? Yep, correct. And how long was Rebecca living at the Shea Residence? At least six months, at least. At some point, was there something that you believed to be a wedding in December 2016? Yes, sir, correct. Did Rebecca stay living at the home until that time?
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Okay. And in the course of regularly conducted activity as a regular practice of that, the records were saved in the format after search and made as automated system. in accordance with the above specified legal process.
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The records were made at or near the time the information was transmitted by META.
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How did Travis and Lori end up getting together?
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Through my wife and I. Well, she wasn't my wife at the time, but through my girlfriend and I at the time. My brother and I spent time together. We were together. They were friends and roommates, so we had an outing or two where they were introduced.
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Correct? That's what it says, yeah.
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And then it says further, META no longer retains a copy of the records provided. Correct? So they sent you a certificate saying, we at some point in time had this data. We're sure at some point in time we sent you some accurate information, but we don't have the documents anymore to verify anything. Correct? That's what you've got a certificate saying.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did there come to be a period of time where your brother and Ms. Shaver started dating?
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And when did that start?
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I have to say maybe April, maybe.
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And now we're talking 2016?
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So Facebook records back in 2018, whenever we sent the search warrants?
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During this time frame that your now wife was living over there, was there ever a time that you were over helping pouring a cement slab in and around the fire pit? Yes, sir. And tell me about how that came to be.
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Please allow the witness to finish answering.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Whenever we received the records back in 2018 in their original format, Facebook records back then were self-authenticating. What that means is that the records were contained in a... Please allow the witness to finish the response.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sure. My brother contacted me, asking me to help him pour concrete around an existing fire, fire pit, I should say. He stated that Lori wanted concrete poured around the fire pit itself. And I told him, sure, I'd help him out.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you. Please allow the witness to finish. Please finish your response.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The records were received in a .zip folder because the files were so big that it had to be compressed to where it could be sent via internet portals. So whenever those records were received, they were in one singular folder. That folder was then put through an algorithm that's called SHA-256, which generates an extremely long chain of letters and numbers that is unique
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And you ever poured a smith's lap?
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As your brother?
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Not to my knowledge.
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Did you guys have difficulties in pouring?
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Yes, sir, we did.
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Now, after the body was found underneath that slab, did you ever have any conversations with Morty or your brother about that? Not to a large extent. I'm just asking if you had the conversations. Up until that point, had Lori ever said anything about the whereabouts of her previous husband? Not to me directly.
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And as you went through those particular records, does that include photos that the user may have uploaded or someone using that account may have uploaded?
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to those records that were provided by Facebook back then. The records back then were self-authenticating. Facebook did not provide business record certifications back then because their records, according to Facebook, were self-authenticating.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Tell us about that.
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Okay, but we're dealing with records today. We're here in court today dealing with the case before us, not what was received and sent in a prior procedure, correct?
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Were you ever present when Travis was talking to detectives about things Lori had said about the body underneath that slab?
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Since 2006.
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And what is your current position or assignment?
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Okay. As stated, we have the... Sidebar, please.
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Yes, sir, I was.
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No, sir, those records were the records that I received in 2018.
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And what did you hear him say to the detectives about her husband and the body underneath that slab?
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Right, but we're here today, and now the records don't authenticate what you declare was self-authenticating on a prior date, correct?
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Objection. You're safe.
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Sidebar, please. What did you hear your brother say to the detectives about that?
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All right, come up for a sidebar.
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You'd acknowledge, though, the records we just looked at doesn't contain any representation specific of any documents, does it, sir? Sure. And your testimony is based as well on a vanity name, correct? And that's a method that you use to verify the documents that you proclaim that you received, correct?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So the conversation from the detectives was a conversation that my brother had with another gentleman. And they asked him details of Michael's whereabouts, if he's known anything about their whereabouts. And his reply was something along the lines of he's no longer walking the earth.
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Hold on, sir.
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Now, since Lori became involved with your brother, has your relationship with him changed?
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Can you please repeat that?
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Yeah. You were talking about on direct examination that there's ways of verification, and one was the vanity name on the account, correct? Sure. The vanity name is one of the unique identifiers. Okay. Do vanity names ever change? Vanity names that are internal to Facebook cannot change. Can anybody use another person's account? Absolutely. Okay.
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Extremely.
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And how so?
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For the negative.
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Do you have as much contact with him?
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Not nearly as much as we used to. Are you able to visit in that spot? No, I cannot go over there.
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Has there ever been a time that you received text messages from your brother that you thought were unusual?
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So when you say, well, we're relying on a vanity name that other people have access to, that's not a real dependable or reliable system to identify documents in the user, correct?
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So, sir, you had seen somebody trespassing upon the property, correct? Correct.
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And why do they seem unusual to you?
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I know the language that my brother and I use when we're speaking to each other. We say things like bro and dude. I have received texts where that language was completely changed. It was more of a direct language than anything.
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Did you see photographs of Michael Shaver throughout the Facebook profile associated? Yes, I did. Are you familiar with Facebook? I am. Did you ever have a Facebook account?
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The way that I answered that was based on the assumption that you meant that somebody could use that account. No, the vanity name is not recycled. It cannot be issued to somebody else. That vanity name is unique to that account forever.
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And have you ever asked him about those messages and whether or not he sent them?
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Yeah, but I just spoke to you and I just said other people can have access to that account. Correct. Or if they have access to the device that it's logged into. If anybody within the residence has access to the browser or knows the password, they have access to that information. Access to the device or knows the password, absolutely. Absolutely.
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And what did he tell you about that?
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He told me it was not him and that I was blocked on his phone.
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Has he ever made any statements about Lori making those texts to you?
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He has told me that she blocked me on his phone, yes.
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But as far as the text messages that were unusual?
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Sidebar, please. Mr. Filmer, the specific text messages I'm referring to are the ones that you thought were unusual and were out of character for your brother. You ever asked him about the source of those texts? Yes, sir. And what did he tell you?
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And as you said here today, you don't know which, if any, of those multiple documents that were submitted were utilized by any other individual, correct? No, sir. I know who they were used by. Okay. Did you witness the person signing in? No, sir. I did not. Okay. Did you witness the person sending? No, sir, I did not. Did you witness who was at the house at all hours, all times?
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uh correct uh i wouldn't possibly say just trespass until we're from the horse i'll get it in perspective we are 10 acres away on the other side i see a human silhouette i don't know at that time if anyone was supposed to be there or not but from the current situation of i believe that lori was off the property no one should be there
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Now, December 31st, 2016, did you attend a wedding ceremony at the chamber residence? Yes, sir. And who was that between? My brother and Lori. Nothing further, Judge.
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No, sir, I did not. Okay. And when somebody is at, as we spoke, at like Starbucks and people are accessing one account, you would acknowledge other people can access that same account, correct? Sure. Accounts can be hacked, correct? They can.
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Mr. Wiggs?
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You're talking about an email you received, correct? An email? Yeah, or text. A text, yes. Okay, so you get a text on one day. Your brother denies that he sent it, correct?
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So out of the multitude of all the documents you've spoken to, you can't direct attention to this specific document or this specific document and say that came only from Lori Shade?
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Yes, correct. Okay.
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Do you have a witness to homicide in this case, correct?
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No, sir, I believe I can. Okay. In light of what you just testified to, correct? The multitude of the evidence when taken of the totality and taken of the whole, yes, sir.
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Okay. You were not present to testify here about any event of violence that may have occurred, correct? Correct. Okay. What you're saying is you got an email on one day and your brother tells you where he's sitting, correct?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, okay. Now, did you request the Facebook records of Jeremy Townsend? No, sir, I did not. Do you know anything about Jeremy Townsend? I've met him and spoke with him. Okay. Did the state talk to you about Jeremy Townsend at all? No, sir. Anybody in law enforcement mention his name to you?
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For the questions that were asked, yes.
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Thank you.
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Good morning. Can you please introduce yourself to the jury?
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My name is Wilma Nicholas. Yes. He was my neighbor.
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In what capacity? I'm asking you. Yes, sir. We were conducting a thorough investigation, and he was obviously part of that. Okay. Did you look into his records? No, sir, I did not.
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When you say he was your neighbor, where were you living?
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Previously, yes.
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Sandy Pines Road in Claremont.
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Ultimately, when you're referring to being a neighbor, a neighbor to the residence where his body was especially found.
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Did you look into Jeremy Townsend's bank records? No, sir, I did not. Okay. Was any kind of audit done of Jeremy Townsend?
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As the neighbor, did you also know Lori Shearer? Yes. I see her in the courtroom and can you identify her by something that she's wearing?
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You no longer have one? No, sir. All right. Is there anything that would prevent another individual from logging into someone's Facebook account as long as they had either the password or a device that was already associated with that and currently logged?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
An audit? Yes. No, sir.
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She's sitting over at the defendant table wearing a black blazer.
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Now, in the records that have been thrown into evidence at this stage, is there any statement in there? And any single record about commission of a crime? No, sir. Any statement within those records about any collusive efforts to cover up a crime? No, sir. So these records allegedly deal with purportedly Lori Shaver and Deborah Townsend.
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How long did you live next door to the Shavers?
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The entire time that they lived there.
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You were there first?
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When did they first move in?
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In 2014. What kind of neighborhood is it? It's rural, country, farm.
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Now, I'm going to go ahead and show... Photograph number one from States Exhibit 15. Do you recognize this property?
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Which records?
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Most of the records that have been introduced here.
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Deal with Michael and Lori, yes.
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Okay. And yet there's no... bearing on any crime or an attempt to cover up any crime within those records, correct? By whom? Whoever's communicating. Did you see any evidence or communications in those documents of any effort to cover up a crime? No. Any mention of a crime? No. And had there been, surely law enforcement would have made an arrest, correct? Yes.
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Okay. And what property is this?
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That's the Shaver property.
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Can you just step down and point without touching on the screen where your property is in relation to that?
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Wharton. This is my house. This was a tech room, passport, garage, and a barn.
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Is there any sort of fence or anything like that between the two properties?
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It's a cattle fence that's just wire.
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Now, we spoke about or we saw messages dealing with flowers. Do you know the motive of the individual that sent those?
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So it's nothing that will prevent you from seeing anything?
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No. All right.
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Go ahead and have a seat. Thank you. Now, would you ever socialize with them?
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Yes, in the beginning we did.
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That sent the flowers? Yes, I do.
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Was there a period of time in 2014 that Michael Shaver moved out of the home?
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Okay. Did it have anything to do with the crime? No, sir, it did not. Okay. And the flowers that have been referenced, they have anything to do with the crime? Not directly. They have anything indirectly to do with the crime? Yes, sir. Okay. And did you put that in your report, explain that to law enforcement?
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Several periods of time.
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And when did he move back in the home?
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Well, he was gone periodically. Whenever there would be a dispute, she would have him leave, and then she would bring him back. So it was multiple times.
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No. The portion of the flowers was not part of my investigation other than the finding of the records in the bank statement.
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When was the last time that he moved?
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It was 2015 in the summer.
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And was there some follow-up on the flowers that showed that the flowers were utilized in the commission of a crime? Not in the commission of a crime, no, not directly. Now, CenturyLink, is that associated in a connective link with Facebook?
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Now, did you see as a neighbor or any of the times that you socialized Michael interacting with his children?
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Yes, sometimes, yeah.
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When you would see it, how was he?
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Very loving, patient, calm.
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Have you ever seen him do anything for the kids in the backyard? Yes. What types of things did he do?
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That was the Internet service provider that the IP addresses using Facebook were accessed from? Facebook is one system.
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Well, he built a barn. He built a chicken coop, I think a bunny hutch. He was working on a duck pond.
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CenturyLink's a different system where the browser's connected to, correct? With Internet connectivity, yes. Okay. Did you obtain a business record certificate from CenturyLink? Yes, I did. Okay. Did that business record certify the reliability of any of the records that you received from Facebook?
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When did that construction start?
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It was in the summer, I believe, of 2015.
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And when we were talking about pushing in the duck pond, what type of work had been done on that?
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He had dug an area. It wasn't very deep. He was pretty meticulous, too, with everything that he did there. So it was very neat and tidy.
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Rejection, Your Honor. Your approach? Sidebar.
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No. What is an ISP? So an ISP is an Internet Service Provider. That is the company that you pay for internet through.
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Have you seen any personnel from Facebook here today? No, sir, I have not. Okay. Have you spoken to anybody directly about Facebook?
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Right here.
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Okay. Now, eventually, was there a period of time where it changed from a hole of a duck pond to something else? Yes. And what was that?
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Now, when we talk about routers as well, and people having access to a router, if somebody's in the vicinity of a router, they can proceed through that route if they can have access to it.
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As long as they have access to the path key.
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Thank you. Now, have you seen or spoken to Michael Shaver since November of 2013? No, I have not. When did you first notice that the hole, well, that the area that was supposed to be a duck pond had been filled in with a fire?
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Currently, I'm a corporal. I'm one of the supervisors within our criminal investigations unit.
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Okay. So when we talk about the records that have been moved into evidence at this stage, do you know who, if anybody, may have had access at all hours, at all times, for any and all of these documents? Yes, sir. One moment, please.
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It would have been around in the spring of 2016, maybe early part of the year.
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Yes, sir. I don't have any further questions. Thank you, Judge. I thank you. Redirect?
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At that point, I would assume it would be on the terms of trespassing, but not on the terms.
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Yes, sir. Those IP addresses where the information is shared between both the Michael Shaver Facebook and Laurie Shaver Facebook, does that go from November 2015 to November 2007?
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Now, between the time frame in November of 2015, where you left, saw, or spoke with Michael Schaefer, and when you noticed that that fire pit started being put in, did you spell anything unusual in the proximity of your home, the neighborhood, things of that nature? Yes. In this rural setting, are there time frames where there are dead animals, cattle, horses, things of that nature?
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Yes, it does.
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And how many separate IP addresses were shared over those two years?
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And did that basically go that entire two-year period? There was continual shared IP address information with those people? That's correct. So for an individual that was hacking into each and every one of those IP addresses, this would have to be a systematic two-year period where they were... trolling outside the Shaver residence or wherever that IP address would be in order to make that.
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Once in a while, my neighbor behind me had cattle, and probably in 2007, 6, 7, a cow died on her pasture. She didn't bury it. She just left it there. So whenever the wind blew up to my house, it was horrible. It was disgusting. So I was very familiar with that smell.
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And what is an IP address?
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So you knew Lori was off the property at that time or away from the residence? Correct. No further questions. Thank you, George.
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That's correct.
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Very distinctive smell.
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Overruled. I'm sorry, what's your answer?
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You don't forget it.
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Now, in that timeframe between November of 2015 and when the fire pit started being installed, was there a timeframe that you smelled that this thing would smell again?
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That's correct.
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Now, when you were talking about information regarding criminal activity and those Facebook records on cross-examination, let me ask you this hypothetically.
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An IP address stands for Internet Protocol. This is a unique identifier to a network that a device is connecting to the Internet on.
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Yes, I did.
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Now, based on your prior experiences in the neighborhood with the livestock and cattle, did that cause an immediate concern?
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If an individual killed another person and had access to their Facebook account, and then after the person was dead, proceeded to post on that Facebook account over a period of years to try to show activity that that person was still alive, would that be evidence of a crime? Yes. As it relates to potential hacking into someone's account.
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Yes. Actually, my son and I were on the back porch, and we were talking, and I had been smelling it, but he had just come, and he wrinkled his nose and said, Do you smell that? And I said, Yeah.
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But nothing rose from the level of he felt that he felt alone because of the other livestock or anything?
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If someone in China is getting into Michael Shaver's Facebook account, would the IP address be the same one that is accessing the Laurie Shaver account?
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At some point... That area that was being used as a fire pit, I have a cement slab put in. Yes. And you remember when that was?
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No, it would not.
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That would be an IP address somewhere in China.
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It was around in 2016. I believe there's two layers of cement that was done. The first one I think was in the beginning of the year.
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All right. Thank you. State? Just say, when did that happen?
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That's correct.
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The Facebook records that you obtained... On that business record certification, did that spell out the specific number that was associated with those records? Yes. And if you were to pull those records up on the various thumb drive, would that number be contained there as well?
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springtime and then later on in the year during the summer i know it was an area that they actually launched fireworks off of during the fourth of july so i believe it was covered by then nothing further judge mr wiggs yes please yes sir sam you testified that you had smelled the dead cow in that area correct many years ago yes okay and the
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Yes, it would.
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When you obtained those records originally in 2018, did it contain that same identifying number?
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Yes, it did.
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And when you went back to Facebook because of the fact that the documentation for evidence and submission changed in the timeframe that the investigation was going along, did you ask them for the same information that you received back in 2018 utilizing that number?
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As you went through the Facebook records, do they maintain IP logs or activity associated with that account?
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I cannot recall. Was it 2019, 2020, 2021? It would be in the realm of... 2018. Okay.
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Shavers also had pigs, correct?
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Not at that time.
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Well, tell me what time it was.
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Yes, I did.
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Pigs came in probably later in 2016, I think.
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Did they give you that and give you the same information that you had originally?
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I think there was one pot-bellied pig that was in and out of the house, and I'm not sure exactly when that arrived.
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They gave us the business record certifications, yes.
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And was that tied together with the records that you already had? That's correct. Nothing else, Judge? All right, Mr. Wiggs, I've been through. Please introduce yourself.
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Okay. That never happened.
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Yes. Not dinner. Yeah, we did.
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Yes, sir. Good morning. My name is Tamara Dale.
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Where do you work?
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Lake County Sheriff's Office.
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How long have you worked there?
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Been there for 21 years.
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I didn't go to their house to have dinner. We had invited them over to our place for, it was an Easter barbecue cookout, and I'd made Easter baskets for the two kids and my grandson, and they went and hunted eggs that day. Not inside the house, no.
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What is your current position?
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I'm a lieutenant in criminal investigation.
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Back in 2018- 2018, I was a sergeant in criminal investigations.
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In fact, looking at this photo... This is your house, right? Correct. And there's not a clear line of sight between your house and this fire pit, is there?
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So the lead detective in that case, she moved positions just within criminal investigations, and I became her supervisor, her sergeant at the time, and the case moved with her. I don't remember exactly when she moved positions, but I think it was sometime in 2018.
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Yes, there is.
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There's a clear line of sight? Yes. Can we look at that and see a clear line of sight? Yes. Okay. Now, you don't go to the Shaber residence, correct? Correct. Yeah, I'd been to it several times. Did you sit down with Ms. Shaver on occasion to have tea, sit there and talk to her?
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Now, at some point, did Detective Thorier leave?
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Yes, she did.
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And when she left, did you kind of step up in order to take on some of the responsibilities of this investigation?
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Yes, they do.
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Not having tea, but I do recall I did go one time and sat and had quite a lengthy conversation with her.
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Yes, I did.
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Now, during the course of this investigation, were you provided with potential names from Mr. Wiggs that he thought you needed to look into and invest in?
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And does that IP address give you a physical address that's associated with that IP address?
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Was that complaining about the pigs?
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Did you ever complain to Ms. Shaver about any of the animals?
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No, not to her, no.
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We were, yes, sir.
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Did they ever kill a pig over there?
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And what were those names?
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Jeremy Townsend and James or Jimmy Ballew.
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I don't know. They had animals that died frequently over there.
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And were those individuals interrogated?
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Okay. So they had animals on the property. They had some pigs, correct?
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They were.
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Did Longhorset go and look into the assertions made by Mr. Wiggs about them?
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Okay. And there was a neighbor behind y'all with horses, correct?
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They came in 2016 and started a horse farm back there.
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In the sheriff's office and when an investigation like this is being investigated, is there just a single detective assigned or is there a team?
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Okay. So we had horses in the area, a lady with a cow that died. We had the shavers next door with some pigs, correct?
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So sometime in 2018. But you don't know when?
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There will be a team. We have a lead detective, as I mentioned, but several detectives will work on a case of this complexity and size.
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There were not pigs there at the time.
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okay okay so do you know the date of death of michael shaver no okay so when you say at the time you don't know when michael shaver died do you i do know there was a period of time in 2015 and there weren't pigs there at that time they have any rabbits or other animals they did have rabbits and i believe that came a little later
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And basically everybody worked together, so not everybody's doing every interview, but all the information is being installed.
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Correct, yes. So the lead detective kind of organizes everything and delegates to some of the other detectives some duties.
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Now, during the course of the investigation was information about Michael Schaefer's phone obtained from the service provider. Yes, sir. What was the phone number of Mr. Schaefer that was looked at?
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No, it does not.
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Are you able, once you get that IP address, to do anything to start investigating where the physical location of that may be?
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And you said this was, when did you detect, or when was the patio put in?
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Michael's phone number was 352-431-5121.
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I believe some cement was poured sometime around in the spring of 2016. I did not see it being poured.
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Springtime, possibly around 2018, if I'm recollecting around there.
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Okay. And what efforts were made in order to track down the information associated with that?
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So you never saw it pour. We see there's not really a clear line of sight from your house, correct?
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So we served a search warrant on his service provider, which was Verizon Wireless, and that was to get, of course, more information about the number itself.
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Yes, there is.
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Okay. One moment.
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Excuse me. Are those the records associated with the phone number that you just discussed?
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That's all I have. Thank you, Judge.
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All right. Thank you. Redirect?
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Nicholas, can you explain to the jury why you're saying you have a clear way outside over here?
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Yes, sir, 5-1-2-1.
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And who is the account assigned to?
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Lori Shaver.
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And were there multiple phone numbers associated with Lori Shaver through this account? Yes, sir. Focusing first on the phone records associated with the 5121 number associated with Michael Shaver, what information is contained in those records?
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Well, in the back, on the backside of my house, I had a really large deck porch. And from there, I could see directly over. Also, as I mentioned, it was a carport, which was completely open all the way through.
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Nothing further, Chuck. All right. When you please introduce yourself to the jury.
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So it has, we call it a call detail record, and it details date and time that calls came to or from this phone, duration of those phone calls, of course, who the subscriber is, like you just mentioned.
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My name is Megan Cleek. Where do you work now? I'm working for the University of Maryland Global Campus.
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And you didn't see this silhouette carrying anything or doing anything? No. You actually don't even know who this person is? No, no clue, nothing. And you are just assuming that this person was not supposed to be there? Correct. Nothing further than that.
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What do you do for that?
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I'm a student advisor.
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Where did you work before that?
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Before that, I worked with the Maryland State Police as a member of the firearms section of their crime laboratory.
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Does that include information that would include content of text messages or things like that?
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What did you do for their crime lab?
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The records that you have solely talks about actual phone calls. That's correct. When we are looking at the various phone calls, does it indicate incoming, outgoing things of that nature?
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The possession of a firearms examiner within a crime laboratory is responsible for the receipt, evaluation, examination of evidence specific to firearms examination.
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Yes, I can.
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Were you provided some evidence in this case of State of Florida v. Lori Shaver? Yes, I was. Evidently, were you provided a firearm?
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It doesn't indicate call duration?
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And what is that?
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Throughout the records, are there numerous entries for calls that have a duration of one minute?
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Yes, I was.
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Were you provided a fired projectile?
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Once we have an IP address, we're able to use Internet resources to find out who the Internet service provider is. Once we have the Internet service provider, we can send them a subpoena, and they will give us subscriber information, which includes the service location, the names on the account, billing information if we request it, and so forth.
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Does that mean that every call of that type of duration is necessarily answered by the person that is being called? No, sir. And if you were to look at the records of a person being called, if the call was not answered, would it then not register on their account?
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Schilling has put in reviews that states it's evidence 46. Do you recognize that item?
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Yes, I do.
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Is that firearm currently unloaded?
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Can you describe to the jury, and if you could show it to the jury as you're describing it, describe the firearm.
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This is one .38 Special Caliber Cobra Enterprises Model Shadow 5-shot revolver.
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No, it would not register on their account.
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And the timeframe for what you got the phone records associated with the 5121 number, what is that?
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Did you examine that firearm?
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Yes, I did.
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Is that firearm considered a single or double action firearm?
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Well, we asked for what we received.
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What did you ask for?
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We asked for August 1st, 2015 through March 9th, 2018, that being the day Michael Shaver's body was found.
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This is a double action only firearm.
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Does it require more effort to fire a double action firearm?
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And I want to go ahead and direct your attention to November of 2018. And if you need to step down in order to demonstrate to the jury the information that we have here, please do my best. Now, first of all, up here in this red box, what information is contained there?
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It does require a longer or more aggressive trigger pull. It requires both the cocking of the hammer and the releasing of the firing mechanism.
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What's meant by the term turner pull?
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Trigger pull would be the weight that is required to pull the trigger fully to the rear, cocking and releasing the firing mechanism.
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When you examine this firearm, did you perform any kind of a trigger pull analysis? I did not. At the time, did Florida Department of Law Enforcement do that type of testing?
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It says detailed for Lori Shaver, which, again, is the person who pays for the phone. The person the phone is in and the name the phone is in. And it says 352-431-5121, so the phone number.
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Sorry. When you're talking about you operate that facility, was that a piece of property which was neighbor to the chamber residence? Correct. And through that, did you meet Lori Shaver? Yes. And do you see her in the courtroom today? Can you identify her by something that she's wearing?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And how long have you been in that position?
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It would not have been required on this particular examination.
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Now, what is the last phone call that was made from the device associated with 512? We need the last phone call out.
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What did you do with that firearm to begin your examination of it?
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The first step in the process of examining a firearm is to evaluate its design and its function. This is for safety purposes. So I documented the make, the model, the caliber of the firearm. I also documented how it would function.
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That's highlighted in blue at the bottom, and that's on November 7th, 2015, at 548 P.M.
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And what phone number was called on November 7th of 2015?
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What were your results of that?
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407-560-6999.
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And did you do research into what that phone number went to?
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That's where I determined, again, that this is a Cobra Enterprises firearm. It's a model shadow. It's a double action only function. It has a cylinder that holds five cartridges.
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Yes, we did. It's a landline for EdPot, which is where it might have left off.
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Now, the phone numbers and the activity that's highlighted in yellow, what phone number is the areas highlighted in yellow associated with?
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Did you test fire it?
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I did, yes.
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What's your purpose in actually firing the gun?
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The purpose of firing the firearm in the laboratory is one, to determine its function. The second is to create known test fires. These are known exemplars, bullets and cartridge cases that I know because I processed the firearm to have been fired in and from this specific firearm.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That number is 352-431-0419, which, you know, any times we're sharing our cell phone number.
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Please introduce yourself. My name is Joseph Bray. Where do you work? I own JB Guns.
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And how do you do that?
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We would ask, at the time, we would ask people, was Flory Shaver's also a number?
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Did the firearm function as it should when you fired it?
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You also obtained that information from Verizon itself? And is that the other number back in November of 2015 that was associated with the Flory Shaver?
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Yes, it did.
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I'm assuming when you fire the gun and retrieve those test fires, you fire it into like a water canister of some sort?
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Yes, it's a large tank of water.
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Yes, on the same account as this.
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Can you go ahead and summarize the activity between the two numbers, the 5121 and the 4419 number, for the month prior, the time prior leading up to the November 7th, 2015?
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Are you then able to take those fired projectiles and compare them to other projectiles provided to you by law enforcement?
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Yes. Creating known test fires allows me to compare unknown bullets in cartridge cases to, again, exemplars that I know to have been fired from a specific firearm.
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So this would be Mike's cell phone, and these are all his incoming or outgoing calls to or from the 0419 number or his cell phone. And leading up to the day that he disappeared, there were 19 attempted or completed calls to or from Mike's phone to or from.
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Did you do that in this case?
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Yes, I did.
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What kind of markings are left on a projectile after it's fired out of the gun?
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The class characteristic markings that are left on a projectile as the result of firing would be the land and groove impressions. These are the helical grooves inside the barrel of a firearm that produce the spin to a bullet, much like we throw a football with a spin, a bullet is fired with a spin. These helical grooves have a certain number, a certain direction, and a certain width.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What is J.D. Cox?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you say to or from. So this is back and forth. He's calling her, she's calling back. There's at least some entries where they actually talk. Correct. And they sell these entries that you're referring to here on these records. Do they have that duration time of one minute?
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It's a retail sporting goods firearm business.
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And those direction, width, and number will differ between firearms. There are also individual characteristics that are transferred to a bullet during the firing process. These are called striations. They're resultant of the manufacturing process in that those helical grooves are cut by a tool into the barrel of a firearm. They're unique to that firearm.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And so some of the activity that we might see in the 5-1-2-1 number, if it is a call out to the other number of what the duration is one minute, we might not see any activity on that other numbers account. That's correct. Is there any activity on the 5-1-2-1, the number associated with Michael Shaver's account after the November 7th, 2015?
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And the IP addresses that we are going to be referencing go back to how far back?
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Where is that one?
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You also provided a projectile recovered from the stall of Michael Shaver.
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There is one incoming call.
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I'm going to go ahead and move that. What call was that?
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You know, he wasn't introduced into the United States until he was 20. Do you recognize that item first?
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So, February 17th, 2016 at 3.47 p.m., an incoming call.
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Yes, I do.
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Did you examine that projectile recovered from the skull that he just looked at?
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All right. And what was the number associated there? 352-787-2277. And did you do record, did you do research into where that phone number was associated?
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It's in Bushnell, Florida.
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Yes, I did.
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Can you describe to the jury what condition that projectile was in when you first looked at it?
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The projectile was in very rough condition, both its shape and material that was surrounding the projectile upon its receipt.
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And have you ever had an occasion to meet Lori Shaver?
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We did. We went to a loan company called Mariner Fire.
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Because of the condition of that projectile, and if you consider that projectile was located in the ground for some period of time, could that affect the markings left on that projectile by the firearm that fired? Yes. Despite the damage... the damaged condition of that projectile, were you able to determine the caliber of projectile or caliber class of the projectile?
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I'm showing you what has been entered in the evidence. It states number 29. These are the business records from Mariner Finance, and these records reflect a phone call to that 5121 number on February 17th of 2015.
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Since 2021.
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The IP addresses that we have go back to at least 2015.
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I did. I met her at an audio shop in Lake County.
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Yes, I was.
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What is my caliber or caliber class?
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0419? Yes.
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The caliber was determined to be 38 caliber class.
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And then was that also obtained through the search form?
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Through a separate search form, yes.
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Did you examine that damaged projectile to determine whether or not it couldn't have been fired from the firearm we looked at earlier, that pink and black Cobra revolver?
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I'm going to ask that you go ahead and look at those records. Are those the records associated with the second phone number associated with that account?
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Yes, sir, 0419.
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Yes, the class characteristics present on the fired bullet and the class characteristics of the firearm agreed.
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And do these records also reflect activity to or from the 5121 number belonging to Michael Shaver preceding November 7, 2015?
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Am I correct that all of the other characteristics of the gun in the bullet are consistent? You just can't say that that specific tool was fired from that gun because of the lack of individual characteristics. That is true.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when did you become involved with this investigation, start looking into the issues involved with this IP address and things like that?
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Yes, it is in the highlighted portion.
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And how long after November 2015 do the records that you obtained associated with Laura Shaver's phone number, do they go?
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Bottom line, the projectile could have been fired from that gun based on the consistency of all those different things we talked about, and you can't say scientifically if it actually was. That's correct. Thank you so much. I have no other questions.
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These records weren't until April 20th, 2016.
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All right. Thank you. Mr. Wiggs.
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And during that time frame between November of 2015, April of 2016, is there any attempts to call the 5-1-2-1 number associated with Michael Schaefer? Is there any calls to that phone number associated with Lori Schaefer from that 5-1-2-1 number associated with Michael Schaefer?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when you were there, did you overhear Ms. Shaver discussing with any other individuals the potential scale of firearms?
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Mr. Buxman started off at, at your testimony, you had received a projectile from...
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The projectile is transferred to me from the evidence section of the laboratory.
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The comparison of individual characteristics was inconclusive, correct? So that's a good summation. There was no connection between that gun there and the projectile that was delivered to you, correct?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, during the course of the investigation, there was a phone number that was submitted through a Facebook message from Michael Shaver's account to Vanessa Townsend. Were you familiar with that phone number?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was research and attempts to look into that phone number done through search warrant as well?
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Yes, we did.
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Showing that that's what has been previously been marked for identification as stage 00. Now, on stage 43... What kind of records are reflected in that document?
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The examination resulted in the conclusion that all class characteristics were in agreement. The result of the individual comparison was inconclusive.
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These are called customer notes by Virajan.
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How many guns fit into that class?
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And what type of activity is referenced there?
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Thousands of guns, if not tens of thousands, correct.
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So it's kind of an ongoing narrative, I guess, type by a customer service representative of activity on the account. I mean, they added a feature or took away a feature, things like that.
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We were talking about double action, single action by firearms. Did you fire the projectile sample?
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February 2018.
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Does it also include information when an account holder does things such as changing a phone number?
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I was responsible for firing the test fires.
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Okay. What's the advantage, the amount of force that's required on that gun to discharge a projectile?
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And is there record activity on that Verizon account for the 5121 number being changed at any time?
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The trigger pull on this firearm was not measured.
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Okay. Any specific reason?
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That was not part of the policy or procedure for an examination of this type.
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When you got the IP address that's associated with the Facebook account, were you able to determine which service provider was linked up with those IP addresses?
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Yes, the owner of the audio shop, she was talking to him about possibly trading guns for maybe audio work. As an individual that owns a gun shop, was that of interest to you? It was. I sat back and waited for her to quit talking to the owner.
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When was that 5121 number changed?
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April 6, 2016, 5-1-2-1, which Mike's number, Doc's cell phone number was changed to 352-801-0941.
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Did law enforcement ever contact you at any time and request it?
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They did not.
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In order to have a phone number changed, that is consistent with the individual having the device itself to change the phone number. Correct. And the period of time that the phone number was sent to Vanessa Townsend, was that after that April 6, 2016 capture?
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State Attorney's Office ever contact you and request that?
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The State Attorney's Office would not contact me directly.
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Okay. When you have a double action pistol as well, you can pull the hammer back and lock it, correct? Correct.
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Not in a double action only firearm, no.
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Okay. Can you pull the hammer back, lock it, and then discharge it by the trigger?
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Now, taking you back to February of 2017, what was your position then?
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That was three days later, I believe, on April 9th.
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In a double action only firearm, no.
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How long did that 0941 number remain under Maury Shaver's account?
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Okay. Single action?
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In a single action firearm, a hammer can be pulled back and locked into position.
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That was 10 days until the date was confirmed.
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And what happened on April 16th?
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Okay. And then it can be released by a separate trigger pull, correct?
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So the number was changed again.
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Okay. So once the hammer is locked back, Does it require less force on the trigger on that type of car?
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April 16th, 2016, 0941 was changed again to 252-431-8441.
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Did you do any research into the phone number ending at 8444? Yes, sir. Your Honor, I'm showing the defense was previously marked as C6M at PP. All right, any objection? No objection. Do you recognize this document?
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That is a question that could not be answered because the trigger pull of this double action only firearm was not measured. And I do not know the trigger pull of a single action. One could or could not be heavier than the other. I would not be qualified to answer that question. Approximately 15 years in firearms examination. I don't know anything about a child pulling a trigger.
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And what is that document?
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It's a Lake County Court document. It's titled Notice of Current Contact Information.
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And who is that Notice of Contact Current Information associated with?
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It's a foreshadowing.
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And does it include her address? Yes, sir. What is that address?
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9850 Sandy Fine Road, Fairmont, Florida, 3471.
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I don't have any further questions. Thank you, Judge. All right, redirect.
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And is that the address where the skeletal remains of Michael Schabel were found underneath a fire pit in the backyard?
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Good morning.
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And what is the date of that document?
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I am Tara Mitchell.
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The July 6th, June 9th, 16th.
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What do you do for a living?
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I currently work with mental behavior at Livestream.
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And does that document also include a phone number?
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And what phone number is that?
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352-431-8444.
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Prior to that, where did you work?
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I was the manager at Mariner Finance.
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The same phone number that the number originally associated with Michael Shaver had been changed to in order to contact Vanessa Carlson and now change again 10 days after that.
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What did Mariner Finance do?
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We did personal secured and unsecured loans.
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How long did you work there?
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Yes, sir, to 8444.
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Yes, I was.
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All right, the time frame. That Mr. Wicks provided you with information relating to Nate, he thought you needed to investigate. Did he give you any information regarding Isabel Shaver?
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Nine years.
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I want to direct your attention back to November 2015. Were you working at Mariner Financial at the same capacity then?
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At that particular time, I was an assistant manager.
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Which service provider was that?
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Did Mariner Financial extend a loan to Michael Shaver in November of 2015?
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And at some point after Lori Shaver's arrest, did you interview Isabel Shaver?
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At that time, we had mailers that came out from the corporate office, and they were sent out to several different people in several different cities.
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By and large, it was CenturyLink.
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Yes, I did.
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At that time, how long was she there?
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It was in 2018, and she had just had her birthday, so I think she had just turned 12 a few days earlier.
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Can you explain to the jury kind of how that worked? Were they just kind of sent unsolicited to people's residences?
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And in the course of your training experience, have you had training about how to interview children?
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And when you went to try to obtain information from CenturyLink to associate it with any physical addresses, weren't you able to get that information?
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Not totally sure as to how corporate determined as to who they were going to send it to, but it would have something to do with their credit. And we call them LBMs, which is the loan by mail. And so they would send them out to different people.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Were you also interviewed at the Child Advocacy Center?
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And what is the Child Advocacy?
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So it's a place where child victims or witnesses can be interviewed in a very friendly, child-friendly setting by people whose only job it is is to interview kids.
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So this is not a situation where somebody comes to your financial institution and says, hey, I need a loan. This is a financial institution reaching out to people to say, hey, I need a loan.
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And once she walked away from the owner, I went up to him and said, if you're not interested in any of this, I would be interested in possibly asking her about purchasing the firearms. And are you aware whether or not she did in fact sell any of those firearms to the audio shop? I believe she did trade one firearm to the audio shop owner. Did you end up purchasing any firearms from her?
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But to clarify, when you interviewed Isabel Shaver, where did that occur?
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Absolutely, and it made it look really good because they gave you a certain amount and all it required you to do was fill out some information on the back.
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That was at their house. Did I say I interviewed her in 2018? I interviewed her in 2020.
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If I got the year wrong, I'm sorry. But that was not done in the sheriff's office.
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Your Honor, this time the state would move into evidence states exhibit DD, as in dog, as states exhibit 29 as a business record certification and notice has been provided. Any objection? Using the process that you just described was a loan extended to Michael Shamer via mail.
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No, that was at her house. Yes, sir.
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Now, not getting into any specific things that she said at that time, did she bring up anything related to her involvement or Jeremy Townsend's involvement that required further investigation by the sheriff's office at the time she gained either of those arrogance? No, sir.
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Yes, it was.
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And how, in what form would that loan have been extended?
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A check was mailed directly to an address that was attached to his social, and that's all it would require for them to do is fill the information out on the back and submit it to a bank or deposit it.
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Are you aware that there have been discussions through Mr. Wiggs about Isabel Shaver's involvement in this case since the time that you would have interviewed her in the child advocacy interview?
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Yes, I am aware.
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So a check is sent to Michael Shaver's residence in the mail with basically a loan check.
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At the point that those statements came forward were charges already pending against Lauren Shaver?
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Any other talking of witnesses would be done through the state attorney's office at that point?
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Describe the process. How would somebody accept that loan or accept the money in that check when it was mailed to them?
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And Ms. Isabelle Shaver, are you aware, was deposed through the course of this pending case?
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They would be required to sign it on their telephone number as to how they could be reached.
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Yes, sir, I'm aware of that.
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As part of your duties, are you a firearms instructor?
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I want to show you what that is. It's a 30. And do you recognize the check that I'm showing you? Absolutely. All right. If, say, someone doesn't pay that loan back or misses payments, does the bank... have a log to show the attempts the bank made to collect that money?
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Yes, I am.
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Now, as part of any sort of firearms training or defensive tactics, are law enforcement officers or anyone else trained in a similar fashion, trained to basically try to make headshots in stressful situations?
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I was not.
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Absolutely. From the moment it is cashed, within 72 hours, we have to make contact with them.
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CenturyLink told us that they only keep records for one rolling calendar year.
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Well, we're trained, if we're using deadly force, it's to eliminate a threat. So we're trained to shoot what's called center mass, which is right in the middle of the largest target, which is the person's body.
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And is that what these documents are contained in this exhibit at 630?
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Absolutely.
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Do you recognize them?
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Absolutely.
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Okay. Are they accurate?
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Nothing further, Judge. All right, thank you. Mr. Wiggs? Thank you, Judge. Yes, sir.
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Good afternoon.
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Good afternoon.
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You replaced Lisa Doria on this case, correct?
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And to what address was that check sent?
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I didn't. I wouldn't say I replaced her. She left, and I helped out more after she left.
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9850 Sandy Pines Road, Claremont, Florida, 34711.
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You inherited the job, correct?
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When was that check mailed out to Michael Shaver's address?
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It had to be mailed before 11-30-2015.
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You graduated, my understanding, from and went to work immediately with the sheriff's office, correct?
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Now, as part of your review of the Facebook profiles, did you also obtain a search warrant in order to get the information from Lori Shaver's Facebook?
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What was done with that check to signify that the loan was accepted by whoever filled out this information at the back of the check?
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I'm sorry, you said I graduated and... You got your certificate for law enforcement.
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You went to work with ESSO, correct?
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Because there are signatures on the back of the check and phone numbers listed with the date. And what was the phone number listed on the back of the check?
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Yes, this is my first law enforcement job, yes, sir.
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You've only worked with law enforcement there, correct? That's correct, yes, sir. Okay, not to belittle you in any respect, okay? Do you have any certificates or training in digital?
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352-431-5121 Was there a date written on the back of the check signifying when it was accepted?
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No, sir. No, sir.
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And so you relied on other people within your report to gather information, correct?
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Absolutely.
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What date was that? 12-11-15 Would that information have been filled in by whoever received the check at the address? Absolutely. That's not information filled out by you or by the bank?
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Within my report to gather information?
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You were the case officer, correct?
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I was never the case officer, no, sir.
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Is your name on the incident report?
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I did supplements. I don't know what you mean by... Okay.
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Does the filling out of that information on the back of the check signify an acceptance of the loan?
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All right, sidebar, please. What are you looking at?
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I'm looking at page one at the moment.
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Absolutely.
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Did Michael Shaver have any in an account with Meritor Financial or anything?
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Are you talking about this post-it note?
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No, no. You've been handed. It looks like just a bunch of typed notes. I don't know what it is.
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Not until he cashed his check.
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What were the terms of the repayment of this loan? For instance, if the loan was accepted, what would be the monthly payments that you make?
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30 monthly payments of $122.89.
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Were any of the monthly payments made in this case regarding this loan extended to Michael Shaver? Absolutely not. All right. Was there ever any personal or phone contact from Michael Shaver to the Mariner Financial Institution regarding the repayment of this loan?
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I did, yes sir.
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notes your notes i think so i don't you bring any records with you to your deposition i think i did okay what would you have brought do you recall no i don't recall okay does that that document that you hold in your hand does it contain your name anywhere within it i'm looking your time there are three for instance Yes, sir. Come on up. Officer Dale, did you sign the probable cause on this case?
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Absolutely not.
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What was done to try to reach Michael Shaver from Mariner Financial to get this loan paid off him?
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And how many firearms and what was the price that you paid?
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First, it's solicitation calls to have them to come in, but we never made contact. And after 30 days being delinquent, it goes into collections, and we start collection calls on a daily basis.
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Yes, I did.
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Is your name in there? Yes, on the probable cause affidavit. So when I asked you earlier, did your name on any of these documents, correct?
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What do you mean by a solicitation call was made?
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when lbms the loans by mails are sent out there's really no real contact with the customer other than what is written on the back of the check so to make it more of a personal we solicit an extra 500 for coming into the bank and signing up to come over onto a mariner paper where so we're able to have better access and we'll know a little bit more about the client
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That's correct.
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Your name's on the probable cause, correct?
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Yes, it is.
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You made the decision to arrest Lori Shaver, correct?
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Showing us your previous MMR, the state's page, do you recognize those records and the thumb drive contained with them?
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I signed the probable cause affidavit. Okay.
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Is it fair to assume you were the primary officer making that decision?
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No. I signed the probable cause affidavit.
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I purchased nine in total from her, and I believe we agreed on $1,000.
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So did he tell you?
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Okay. You signed that affidavit after receiving other information from other people, correct?
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Okay. So you reach out to the person who accepted the loan and say, hey, why don't you come on into our bank?
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Yes. Yes, that's correct.
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According to the number that they put on the back of the check.
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So it was based on your conclusions that Lori Shaver was arrested, correct? Correct. You're the one that vouched for the arrest?
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Okay. When is that done in relation to the acceptance of the loan and you getting information that the loan has been accepted?
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I signed the probable cause affidavit.
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Within 24 to 72 hours, we're notified that a check has been cashed. So it automatically appears in our system of new loan by mails.
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Okay. Yes. And based on that probable cause, Lori Shaver was arrested?
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Okay. Thank you. As this case was going about, was it listed as a cold case file?
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And what kind of firearms did you purchase?
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That when you reach out for these solicitations, they come into our bank.
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No, it was not.
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That is correct.
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Okay. How long was the investigation?
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Was that done in this case? Absolutely. Was any response received by the bank from Michael Shaver?
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Well, from... March 2018 to September 2020 was when the arrest was made, so... Did you ever put it...
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There were no answering of the phone calls.
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When the time for the first payment came due, you had already indicated that no payment was made. What did the bank do or you do to try to make contact with Michael Shaver?
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cold case file we we put it on the internet so we have a section called cold case files yes and i know what you're talking about but that's the only place we had at the time to put cases to get more information but we did not determine it to be a cold case because a cold case is something in our eyes but we have nothing else no other information to go on so you weren't hot on the trail of lori shaver or any particular individual when you put that on the internet correct
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We started reaching out with the number that was on the back. We will use pre... websites where we can look up to try to find if there's any other numbers that's attached to the name.
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There was a little bit of everything. There was an AR-15. There was a few Colt revolvers, older revolvers, Maverick 88 shotgun, an old 410 bolt-action shotgun, an old FN 1900, and there was a Marlin Model 60 and I believe a Winchester 94 revolver.
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Did the bank continue to try to reach out to Michael Shaver for a lengthy period of time?
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Oh, absolutely. It doesn't charge off until 180 days.
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I don't remember exactly the time frame that happened, but I think we were waiting on more information to come in, search warrants. I don't remember exactly what day that happened. Maybe you do if you have that in front of you.
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What do you mean by charge off?
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We have no payments, so unfortunately.
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Yes, I do.
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Did I ask you this?
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Okay. Let me direct your attention specifically to February 17, 2015. Did you specifically try to call the no front rooms listed on the back of the check?
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When that was put on the Internet, were you holding any evidence, any inference that you could suggest guilt to Lori Shaver?
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I don't remember when that was put on yet. Okay. What we had at that time. Yeah, I don't know when it was put on the Internet. It was just basically to get out to the public, to get the case out in the public's eye, to get tips if anyone had any. That was our intent.
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What happened when you did that?
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A female answered the phone and stated she had just gotten that particular phone that Friday before.
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What is contained on that thumb drive?
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Basically indicating, I don't know what you're talking about. This is the wrong number. Absolutely. Did you have any personal knowledge as far as who you were speaking with?
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I had no idea.
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Was the loan eventually turned over to collections when the payments weren't made? Yes, it was. It's within the Mariner financial system, but it's turned over to a different department?
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Were you aware of any internal conflicts within the Shaver residence?
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These are Lori Shaver's Facebook records.
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At that time, after 180, it goes to a higher level.
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Michael North Shaver? Yeah, I heard of some of the witnesses described, of course, this is third party because I never spoke to Michael or Lori, but having both of them described some domestic violence incidents.
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Did anyone by the name of Lori Shaver ever contact Mariner Financial about this loan?
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If that would have happened, would there have been notes in your... Absolutely. Did you eventually speak with a Sergeant Tammy Dale from the Lake County Sheriff's Office?
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In the probable cause affidavit, was there a decision that you signed off on to arrest Lori Shaver for the charge of murder?
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Yes, I did.
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Once you spoke with Sergeant Dale, what was ultimately done with this loan?
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It eventually charged off.
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And that was your decision, correct? Correct.
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Have you reviewed it and initialed the thumb drive?
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Meaning the bank?
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I signed the affidavit.
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The bank. We could no longer do any more collections on it because in our local level.
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Okay, when you say you signed the affidavit, was somebody telling you to sign the affidavit, write murder in there, and write accessory?
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Thank you, ma'am. Thanks.
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No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I just want to make it clear that I'm not the only, I wasn't the only detective working on this. It was a group effort. Absolutely not. No, sir. Let me finish my question.
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Did the law enforcement take that check from him? No, the check is given to the bank.
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Okay, but I mean, did law enforcement get a copy of that check?
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Not what I'm saying.
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Yes. Yes, I have.
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Was that your decision?
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We do have access to it.
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Well, then that's when they have access to it. Did they come by and request a copy of the check?
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It was my decision. It was a group decision, but I signed the affidavit, yes.
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It was your group decision, but you were part of that group?
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I cannot determine at this particular time if they requested it at that time or not.
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Yes, absolutely. This is not the Declaration of Independence. We can't all sign it. So I signed it.
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Okay. You don't know that fact, all right. And did you have any video of the man in the back who sucked your child up or anything like that?
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Is all the records that Facebook sent to you with their identifying number associated on that thumb drive?
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Recall me taking your deposition? Yes, sir. Okay. Did at any time you believe when I was taking your deposition that I may be there trying to trick you, or did you assume that?
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Because it's a loan by mail, they never enter our office.
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So nobody came down to the back to your personal office, right?
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That is absolutely correct.
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Do you help the law enforcement after it took a copy of the check to do any kind of handwriting analysis?
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Yes, I did.
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Okay. And thus, if you assume such, would your... Answers may possibly be garnered.
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That's beyond my knowledge.
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Thank you.
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All right, did he redirect? No, Your Honor, as you can see. Can you please enter?
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I'm Vanessa Townsend.
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I'm sure they were. I don't recall specifically.
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And do you know what Jeremy tells you?
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Now, you, along with others, made the decision to charge Lori Shaver with the crime of second-degree... Sidebar, please. You and others evidently within the department proceeded to charge and arrest Lori Shaver with the crime of murder in the second degree, correct? Yes, sir. Okay. Do you know what the elements of murder in the second degree are?
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How do you know?
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He's my husband.
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When did you get married?
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April 12, 2008.
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And you have children together?
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In 2016, where were you working?
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Pine Ridge Elementary.
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And what was your position there?
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A teacher.
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Did you work there the whole school year of 2015, 2016? Correct. And in 2016, while you were at work, did you receive an unexpected delivery?
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In February 2017, I was one of our economic crimes detectives.
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Yes, Your Honor. Sidebar, please.
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Officer, I was asking you about the decision that you all made internally. And as to the crime of... Murder in the second degree. Are you aware of the elements?
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Yes, it is.
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Sidebar, please. Please proceed. Did you receive an unexpected delivery?
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I can't quote them, but generally, yes. Pardon me? I can't quote the statute book, but generally, yes.
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And what was that delivery?
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Your Honor, this time the statement HH into evidence as 36?
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And those flowers come with a car?
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Your Honor, may I approach? Yes, sir. Showing what fence was previously marked as a specific tee.
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Okay. What are the elements for the crime of second degree murder?
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So unlawful taking of a human life, not premeditated, obviously.
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Judge, we have filed a motion with respect to this. Please approach.
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And at some point, did you reach out and tell law enforcement about these firearms that you had purchased?
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I'm sorry?
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I said obviously not premeditated.
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Okay. Okay. Tell me, so there's a death, correct? Yes. By another individual, correct? Yes. Anything that surrounds the nature of the killing?
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I'm going to go ahead and ask that you cut along the top here and just take a look at the card that is inside. It is. It is. I did. All right.
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Can I have a statute book?
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I can't quote it. No, I can't.
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Okay. And you understand that all elements must be established?
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Absolutely, yes, sir. Pardon me? Yes, sir.
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When you went through this case, did you consider elements or issues of self-defense, whether there were any?
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Objection is overruled. State's T will be entered in the evidence of state's number 30.
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The car that came with those flowers, did that include a message?
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What do you mean, did I consider them?
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And then you go ahead and read that message to the jury.
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Yeah. Well, there was a death.
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That's okay.
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I'm unaware of any.
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Ms. Dow says it's a difficult day for you.
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Okay. You were aware that there was a death. Did it enter your mind that possibly there was an issue of self-defense involved?
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It is. It says roses are red, violets are blue, my wife is a whore, your husband is too. Sorry about this. Check your Facebook message. We need to talk. Mike.
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But I'm unaware of any.
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Okay. Did you investigate to determine whether or not self-defense was plausible in this case?
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I did, yes, sir. After I saw the news coverage about the missing person, I recognized the house and Ms. Shaver. And I reached out to a friend that worked at Sumter County.
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35. Yes, sir. Any objection? To our motion on the digital data? Yes, sir. Has this been raised before? All right. And the motion, the objection is overruled.
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Now, up until this point, have you ever had any interactions with this particular Mike or a Michael Shaver?
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I'm unaware of any. No one made a self-defense claim. Michael was shot in the back of the head. I don't know of any self-defense. No one made that claim.
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Up until this point, had you noticed any messages from a Facebook profile identified as Michael Shaver prior to receiving those flowers? No. Up until this point, did you have any knowledge or that your husband was potentially having an affair?
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Okay. Well, you wouldn't expect me to come in and make it, correct?
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No. I would expect someone to make it if they acted in self-defense. That's how it normally occurs.
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So let me ask you then, if you see certain elements but nobody suggests in self-defense, do you just presume guilt and make the arrest?
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When did you receive that card and those flowers?
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Okay. Did you do anything, therefore, to see whether or not there was any issue of self-defense?
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In April, April 11th, 2016.
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And the time frame leading up to you receiving those flowers, was there ever any time that your husband was sleeping anywhere other than the home, which would have given you concerns that he was having some sort of actuarial affair?
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If no one suggests self-defense, how would I know they're self-defense?
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And I didn't see any evidence of self-defense. And normally in self-defense, you don't bury the body in a backyard. I've never seen that before anyway.
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Sleeping elsewhere?
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There was testimony, I think, that you provided about address changes, correct?
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So you always came home at night, he was always around?
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After you received that card, did you in fact go, well, did you have a Facebook profile at that point?
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Earlier on direct examination. You looked at some documents, saw a certificate of an address change?
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And after receiving that card and that message, did you go onto your Facebook profile and realize that there had been, you know, a friend request or some sort of messages from Michael Shamer's Facebook account? I did. And once you saw that request had come in and those messages had come in, what did you do specifically as it relates to FaceTime?
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I think it was just declaring that was her address at that time. Okay. I think is what that was.
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Did the address change have anything to do with the homicide?
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I don't know what it had to do with it. It was a court document.
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Pardon me?
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I don't know what it had to do with it. It was a court document declaring that was her address at that time and phone number.
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I contacted the person back.
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Okay. Would that suggest to you a homicide? No. Okay. You also testified about documents of utilities in somebody's name, correct?
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Did you accept this friend request to be able to look at these messages?
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And did you go through the messages that had been sent to you up until the point that you had received those files? Yes. I'm going to go ahead and show defense. States exhibit EE.
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Cell phone bills? Yes, sir.
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Okay. Would that suggest a homicide?
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Just a cell phone bill by itself? No.
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Okay. Is a cell phone bill with anything else going to suggest a homicide?
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Now, similar question. Have you gone through all the data that's contained on there?
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Who can escape? All right, sidebar.
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I mean, it's the contents of the record, not the cell phone bill.
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Come on up.
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I'm showing you states EE.
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Those records don't suggest a homicide in any form or any manner, do they?
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The cell phone bill? Yeah. It's what they show and not by themselves. No, of course not. It's the totality of everything.
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And ultimately, did you relay this information to the Lake County Sheriff's Office?
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Do you recognize that thumb drive?
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Your investigation never uncovered any kind of financial motive as a motive for any homicide, right?
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What does that thumb drive contain?
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The messages from the Facebook account.
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And did that contain all the messages that you received from Michael Shaver's Facebook account, including any screenshots, screenshots of text messages, these Facebook messages we're referring to here, along with photographs that may have been sent to you?
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Did you put that fact in your report?
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That we didn't uncover a financial motive?
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That wasn't in there?
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In my report or my PC affidavit?
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In the report.
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Yes, to my knowledge.
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And how do you recognize that that is what is contained on that thumb drive?
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That we didn't uncover a financial motive? No.
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Do you think it's important for the jurors and everybody that you document all facts, including exculpatory evidence? Yes, absolutely. Okay. That would be an exculpatory factor, correct? No financial motive in this case.
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I dated and initialed it.
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And you reviewed that information before doing so? Correct. Your Honor, at this time, the statement states EE into evidence at, I believe, number 31.
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I did, yes, sir.
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Yes, sir. Objection is overruled. States EE will be admitted into evidence at states number 31.
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Well, I mean, I wouldn't put in there, I would have to put then, I didn't uncover a financial motive, I didn't uncover this motive, I didn't uncover that motive. So I can't list every motive that I didn't uncover.
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Now, I want to start with the actual Facebook messages you received from Michael Shaver's account. Showing defense states FF.
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Nothing further at this time.
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That's often a primary factor in a homicide, is it not?
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And did that have information associating it with Flory Shade?
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Judge said objection. Yes, sir.
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Well, you don't have to prove motive, but yes, if you have one, it would be a primary factor.
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Mr. Price, the objection is overruled.
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Showing you with the previous report, the six documents. What are those documents?
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And in your investigation, you discovered that the body had been dead through your correspondence with other witnesses for several months to years, correct?
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Mr. Wiggs?
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The messages I received through Facebook account.
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I believe that is what the K-Phil lab said.
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Okay, so we've heard testimony in this case about people getting emails on this date and the last time Michael Shaver showing up at work on this date or that date. Those don't suggest homicide, do they?
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Yes, sir. Mr. Bryant? Was there a male with Ms. Shaver?
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And those are actually also contained on the thumb drive that we just talked about, this is a pretty valid version of that. Right. Bureau, at this time, states FF into evidence as states exhibit number 32.
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I mean, well, his cause and manner of death is what suggests homicide.
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I mean, the fact somebody doesn't show up for work is not an element suggesting that Lori Shaver murdered someone in particular day, correct?
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Over defense objection, states FF will be admitted into evidence.
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Yes, it did. What kind of information was that? The same information. It will have the vanity name, which is a unique identifier that is set up whenever the account is established, along with phone numbers and e-mail addresses.
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Now, I'm going to go ahead and start publishing some of these, looking at the blue numbers on top, page 2447. Is that where the first message that you would ever see from the Michael Shamer Facebook?
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Now, you understood, pursuant to the requirements, that the death had to have been the criminal act of Lori Shaver, correct?
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That's correct.
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Okay. Or somebody acting on her behalf, correct? Correct. Now, you weren't present during the death of Michael Shaver, correct?
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And first of all, what was the date of that message?
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February 25th, 2016.
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No, I was not.
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And what was the content of that message?
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You can't testify what happened during that incident, can you?
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Hello, Vanessa. I know you don't know me, but I keep sending you a friend request because I really need to talk with you about something important. I am not a creep. I promise. I'm looking to confirm some information concerning my wife.
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Can't testify who was present, correct?
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There was, yes, sir.
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Can't testify who was any aggressor, correct?
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Can't testify whether or not somebody was exercising self defense, correct?
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Now, moving on into page 2446. Are there messages in 2447? We will start on page 2447. Did you receive any sort of follow-up message there on April 5th of 2007? The message there for April 5th, what is that statement?
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Neither can you testify as to who if anybody shot a guy.
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I wasn't there, so no, sir, if that's what you mean.
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When you say economic crimes detectives, what kind of crimes would you investigate?
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Dark hair?
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And yet such facts. are imperative as essential elements to the crime of homicide, correct? That the criminal death occurred by a particular individual, correct?
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So April 5th, 2016, it says, I don't think you are seeing my messages. I just sent you something. Hope you contact me when you receive.
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Okay. Those are essential elements. that are not revealed in any report, correct?
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I don't remember his hair color. I just remember a taller, in-shape man with her.
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And moving on to the seeing page, is there a message then from April 9, 2016? April 9, 2016, please contact me at 352-801-0941.
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Well, I never witnessed any homicide. I've never witnessed a homicide.
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But those facts are not gleaned by other evidence within this investigation, correct?
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And what is the next message that you receive after getting that phone call? April 11, 2016.
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I believe that they are. Okay.
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Now, there was a point in time in which law enforcement responded to the residents in reference to a well-being check, correct?
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And what is that message?
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Okay. Were you there for that? No, I was not. Okay. Do you know how many officers were there?
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I received multiple. It says, your special delivery is to arrive today. Hope to finally hear back from you.
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I don't. I think at least two, but there may have been more. I don't know.
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The special delivery message, was that close in time to when you received the flowers?
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Now, when law enforcement went there for a well-being check, you can't make any declaration they were hot on the trail and were making headway on that case, correct?
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Did it include pictures of herself, her children, her home, things of that nature?
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Kind of sad? Mm-hmm. Okay. How high? Do you remember?
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Is that that same day?
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After you accepted the friend request, did you start communicating with this Facebook profile identified as Michael Schaefer?
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And in fact, they went to the residence. As a consequence of a call from Scott Amatuchio, correct? Yes, sir. Mr. Amatuchio never indicated he had witnessed a crime, correct?
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And in the course of that, did you receive any sort of screenshots of text messages between your husband and Lori Shafer?
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No, he didn't.
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Yeah, he was working on a suspicion, correct? That something may have happened at that house.
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Did you also receive photographs that showed your husband with Ms. Shafer?
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I guess you could call it that, yes, sir.
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Yeah, because he hadn't seen his friend in some time, correct?
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He had other suspicions, but yes, including that.
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The phone number that was placed in that Facebook record, did you reach out and contact that individual?
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Mr. Amatuchio stated he hadn't seen his dear friend for some years, correct?
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And how did you do so?
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I do not. I just remember he was quite a bit taller than she was.
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Since the end of 2015.
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I tried to call it.
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Did that person ever answer the phone?
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Did your ears go up when you heard that he hadn't seen his friend for several years? What his relationship was with Mr. Shaver? Did that spark your suspicion at all?
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So after asking you to call, they never picked up?
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Correct. They texted me back.
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And were you ever able to talk on the phone with the person that had given you that phone number?
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Yes, it did.
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I wasn't involved in the case at that time.
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I'm sure I do. It's been previously been marked as state's exhibit GG. Do you recognize the state?
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Okay. If you were involved in the case at that time, would that raise some suspicion in your mind?
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And how far back does that activity go?
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I don't know. Okay. I mean, but it quickly went from one person hadn't seen him to several people hadn't seen him. Okay.
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And what is state's GG?
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Text message.
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And is that the text message that you reached out or received back from that phone number you just stated?
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So it became a numbers game?
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Your words, not mine, but one person hadn't seen him, and then his family hadn't seen him, and then no one. We couldn't find anyone who had seen him.
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That's the one I received back.
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Yeah. Taller than me?
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Do you know what his relationship was with his family?
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33. Objection is overruled.
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Specifically, no.
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But I know the point is people he worked with, actually no one had seen him. No one. People who saw him at work, no one since the end of 2015.
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Now, also during the period of time that this was going on, did you obtain Lori Shaver's phone number?
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I believe 2015 at least.
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What's that, sir?
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Did you reach out and send a text to that number?
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Taller than me?
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Did you correspond with Ms. Shaver through that phone?
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Okay. My understanding was your position that Lori was arrested because it was your feeling she was key in covering up the body that was found on the property, correct?
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I texted, but I never received a message back.
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I am showing what's previously been marked for identification as States 4RR. How did you get Lori Shaver's phone number? Was it included in the screenshots on the text messages that you received?
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I would say so.
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And that would have been the timeframe that you obtained the warrant for?
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That's part of it.
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Okay. When you made that conclusion, did you reach any particular conclusion based on any physical evidence that Lori knew he was buried there?
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Was he introduced to you at all?
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I don't remember if it was text message or Facebook, but it was given to me through one of those two.
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I'm showing you what's been previously been marked for identification as States 4RR.
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I'm sorry, did you say that Lori knew he was buried there?
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Yes, I do.
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Physical evidence, no, sir. Pardon me? No, sir. Physical evidence, no.
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And is that a screenshot of text that you sent to Lori Shaver's phone? That's correct. You're right. This time the statement seeks RRR into evidence of states number 34. Any objection?
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Okay. So you had no evidence to suggest that Lori knew his body was there, but basically she was just the closest one to the body, correct?
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All right. Over defense's objection, states RRR will be admitted into evidence of states number 34.
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That's part of it, but not all of it.
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Okay. So she's closest to the body. She gets arrested.
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I don't recall.
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And the amount of information on that thumb drive, how is that in relation to the records from Michael Schumer?
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Okay. Now, do you happen to know whether or not any of these guns were tested by law enforcement?
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Okay. Will you say that's part of it?
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During the time frame that you were corresponding with... The individual utilizing the Michael Shaver Facebook account, did they encourage you to get a divorce?
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Well, that is part of it. It was on her property and his property under a fire pit that she built, but that's not the only reason she was arrested.
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Well, what was it? What else did I miss that you can fill me in on that was factored into that decision?
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Yes, they did.
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Did they make any offers to you in relation to that?
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I don't know what you mean, offers.
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Well, she was the last person seen with him alive. That means she murdered him.
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I'm sorry. Did they bring out matters of a divorce attorney?
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Yes, they did. They recommended one.
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Let's stop there.
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We are taking each thing I'm going to say and ask, does that mean she murdered him? Each thing, no, by itself, no. Never have arrested her for any one thing I'm going to say. No, sir. No. So he's the last to see him.
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Now, ultimately, when you got this information, did you confront your husband about it?
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At that time, did you both decide to stay together, married, and in the relationship?
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Does that mean she murdered him?
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By itself, no.
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Okay. Let's go to the next issue. What's the next issue?
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When did that process and that period of time begin?
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For the end of April, May.
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So she was the last person she left with him. The two of them left together. Last person to see him that we know of on planet Earth alive. She immediately started lying about his whereabouts. Okay, stop.
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And after that period of time, was there ever instances where Mr. Townsend left and found an unknown without the police to say that you weren't aware of her in that time frame? No. No further questions at this time? All right, Mr. Wicks? I don't have any questions. Thank you, Judge.
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Significantly larger.
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Right there. Is Lori sitting here today charged with lying? No. Okay. Is that an element to the crime of murder? No. Okay. What other factor did you rely upon?
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She really started lying about his whereabouts to everyone. She took two and a half years lying about to everyone his whereabouts, which delayed his friends and family reporting him missing, which delayed discovering his body, which delayed discovering his homicide and investigating his homicide. I don't know who that would benefit other than the person who Killed him and put him in the ground.
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Based on the activity that you saw, was she a more frequent poster on Facebook than the Michael Schumer account? Yes. Okay. Part of those records that are already in evidence, does Facebook maintain all of those IP addresses associated with that?
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Yes. Right over here in the black blazer.
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As far as I'm aware, they were not.
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We'll stop for a second. You initially began your testimony saying that you were aware there were issues at the Shaper family, correct? Yes. That there were tensions within that family, correct?
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Okay. Were any of these guns returned to you?
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Yes. Did it enter your mind, considering those facts, that maybe Ms. Shaper was happy he was gone?
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Well, that could be, except that he wasn't gone. He was dead and buried under a fire pit.
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Well, he wasn't there bothering her?
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But he wasn't gone. He was murdered under a fire pit.
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Do you have evidence that Uri Shaver placed Mr. Shaver under that fire pit?
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Well, everything I'm listening to you is what led me to conclude that no one else did.
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I'm sorry.
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No, just everything I'm listening.
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Everything you're listening to. Okay. And as one of the agents on this case, you reviewed what was happening on that fire pit, correct? Correct.
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What do you mean, returned to me?
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Okay. And you have personal knowledge that not one single item in that fire thing linked Lori Shaver to that?
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Physical evidence, you're correct, yes.
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Okay. There's no forensics, correct? Correct. Does that factor into your decision to charge Ms. Shaver with homicide? Correct, yes. The fact there was no connective link?
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After law enforcement had done whatever they had to do with them. Did anybody tell you that we don't need these?
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Yes, but by that logic, then we can never charge anyone.
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You think?
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Well, by that logic, yes. There's no evidence against anyone. There's no forensic evidence. There's no anyone DNA in there.
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For instance, do homicides occur when people leave eyes with fake events on them? Yes. Okay. Do they leave a gun registered in their name where holistics link up to that gun?
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Okay. Were those present in this case? No. So when you say you could never charge somebody with such an offense, okay, that's not an accurate statement, is it?
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Well, you're making it sound as if there's no DNA in that pit with his body, which there wasn't. Okay. Then we can't charge anyone.
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Let me ask you, was there any DNA on his physical body?
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Any tears from her?
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I had already sold the guns long before law enforcement found out about them.
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Yes, they do.
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From no one, no. Okay.
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The word tears found in the pit, right?
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Not foreign to him.
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You don't know about that?
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Not that we could test on anyone else that can compare to anyone else.
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And now, does that mean every single time somebody just pulls up Facebook, scrolls, looks at a picture, does something like that, that that activity is going to be referenced on those IP logs?
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So Lori's closest, so Lori gets charged, correct?
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All I'm saying is, by your logic, if we find no physical evidence in with his body, we can't charge anyone, which would mean we could never charge anyone. So, I mean, I think you would agree that with his body being on their property, it would have to be someone who knows him. He wasn't robbed on I-Drive by a stranger and they brought him back to his property and buried him.
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You don't know who was residing in that residence, do you? Well, I wasn't there, but I know who says... You know how the altercation occurred, correct?
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Different types of fraud, credit card fraud, identity theft, sometimes things that deal with computers and electronics.
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So you had sold them? Yes, sir. Okay, when law enforcement spoke to you. But you recall this mail with Ms. Shaver, correct?
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I wasn't there.
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Did you see or uncover any photographs of Lori Shaver having anything to do with the patio itself?
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The fire pit or the concrete, because those were built at separate times.
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Did you see anything, any images or photographs of Lori pouring the patio?
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Not pouring the patio.
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Anything to do with the patio?
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I think she had some photographs of Bags of cement on her Facebook, yes.
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Correct. Okay. And where did you see those images?
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On her Facebook.
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So Lori Shaver is going to pour a patio, and she's got on Facebook photos of the concrete she's going to do it with, correct? Correct.
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I saw photos of bags of concrete on our Facebook, yes.
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Did you make a note of that in your incident report? This may constitute exculpatory evidence suggesting this person didn't know the body was in there?
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Typically, no.
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I do, yes, sir.
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I don't know what you mean.
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You usually go about advertising that they're going to put a patio over a body, do you think?
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I don't know. This is my first case with a patio over a body. It was in my report. So whether you call it exculpatory or inculpatory, I don't know.
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What types of things register on the IP log history that you get from these records?
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Okay, thank you.
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In fact, you would acknowledge that that doesn't suggest guilt. What doesn't suggest guilt? The fact that she had anything to do with the patio and that the concrete had been posted.
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Did you ever know Michael Shaver?
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Mr. Wright, when did you first see Scott's phone, Mr. Shaver?
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Here's what I find out about that is she had a five-acre property and she put it over his body. So that would...
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Do you know what the ground looked like before?
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Before what?
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The concrete was lying. No. Do you know what was going there?
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I was told a duck pond.
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Did you put that in the report as potential exculpatory evidence?
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It's in the report about the duck pond. It's not in my part of the report.
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make any notations that that would be evidence potentially for consideration that what would be evidence pardon me that what would be evidence i'm sorry that this patio was put there for a reason specific not necessarily to cover up a crime i i don't know her reason for putting it there right correct but you made the decision one of the people made the decision to arrest lori shaver yes implicating
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Sure. Login activity is one of the big ones. Anytime anybody accesses Facebook on their device, whether it's a phone or a computer, Facebook will log that IP address. Whenever messages are sent, photos are shared, statuses are updated, Facebook will log that IP address for that activity.
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Date-wise, I believe it was December 5th to like the 8th, somewhere right in there.
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she had knowledge of the body being there correct well yes yes knowledgeable of the fact that there was another ulterior purpose for the existence of the ground prior correct i'm sorry say that again i apologize and at the same time you knew that the ground had another purpose intended purpose correct we were told that mike was making a duck pond correct yes we were told that
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Now, it's my understanding that you have a belief that the crime can't be committed just on a bare suspicion, correct? Of guilt. Right, yes. I mean, that's your feeling, correct? Some bare inference, correct?
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Yet, when you arrested Ms. Shaver, there was no evidence that you held. establishing any knowledge on her part that the body was under the patio, correct?
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Well, to me, her building the patio over the body was, what did it for me? If you call that exculpatory, that's our agree to disagree moment, I guess.
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You disagree with that statement?
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That her building the patio over his body means she did not know it was there, is what you're saying?
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Okay, have you made a statement inconsistent with that in the past, is what I'm asking you?
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Inconsistent with what?
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What you just stated. I'm referring you to your deposition. I'm going to refer you to page 30, line 14 through 16. You'll read that.
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Nothing wrong with that. All right, thank you. Morning. Please introduce yourself to the jury.
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14 through 16.
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Question, but how do you know that Ms. Shaver, back to my question, had anything to do with filling in that pit? Answer, with actually putting the dirt in. Question correct. Answer, I don't. So you don't?
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whether or not she had any knowledge of any body in the ground or had any partaking in the placing of the body in the ground, correct? By your prior statement.
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And does the actual IP logs contain information, not only that the account was accessed, but the type of activity that was done?
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With filling the pit?
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That she had any knowledge that the body was in the pit or partaked in placing the body in the pit.
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Hi, my name is Travis. I'm Lori's husband.
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Can I see that again? I don't think that's what that said. I just want to see it again. I apologize. May I?
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It's okay.
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I was reading rather than paying attention. My brain will only do one thing at a time.
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That's fine. It's late afternoon. Okay.
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I mean, without reading the rest for context, it says had anything to do with filling in that pit.
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And I said with actually putting the dirt in.
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The question was, but how do you know that Ms. Shaver, back to my question, had anything to do with filling in that pit?
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And are you a convicted felon?
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It doesn't sound like you're asking, did she know the body? No, so let's go further. Okay.
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With actually putting the dirt in there, you ask me, and I say, correct. And your answer? I don't. Correct? So it's not a matter that the pen is in her yarn. You know there's got to be some evidence to establish that this shaver had knowledge of the body and the ground, correct?
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How many times have you been convicted of felony?
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It doesn't sound like that's what you're asking me there without reading more context. I apologize. But you're asking about filling in the pit?
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Yes, it does.
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Now, Mr. Camuccio was asking you about information gleaned from myself. or anybody else. Did Mr. Camuccio relay to you any conversations and facts that relate to him about the minor child?
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I have two charges against me. Two convictions. And...
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I'm showing you what's previously marked by identification as States II and JJ. And what are those exhibits?
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Just general facts of her story, yes.
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Okay, and a revelation of what had come forward? Yes, sir. From that minor? Yes, sir. When you met the child at child services,
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Had you ever met Travis Filmer? I have. Now, when did your business move into that property?
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The Children's Advocacy Center?
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Yeah. It wasn't that the child misrepresented anything. The child didn't want to speak to you, correct?
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I didn't speak to her at the Children's Advocacy Center. She was interviewed by the professional interviewers.
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Would it help refresh your recollection of that if I showed you your judgment, sir? Sure. So do you remember this case? Yes. Yes. One felony there? Yep. In this case, two felonies.
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And no information was gained from that child, correct? About... Anything. Did she relate to them? One story that changed from another.
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I mean, that's a broad statement. She didn't say anything about... Shooting Mike.
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Right. She didn't say anything about anything, did she?
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What do you mean she didn't say anything about anything?
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Do you know anything that the child did?
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Sidebar, please. This minor child didn't fail to provide a statement. The child didn't give you any statement, correctly?
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These are the IP logs for each of the Facebook accounts.
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sounds like you're saying she gave a statement okay yeah is the statement materially different or did the child just say she did it was personal materially different than what what was later revealed was materially different in that she did not say at the children's advocacy centers that she shot her dad if that's what you mean she didn't want to talk about it correct About?
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The event.
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About shooting her dad?
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I mean, they didn't ask her, did you shoot your dad?
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About some things, yes.
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Did the state converse with you at any point in time about any conversations that I may have communicated to the state from that child?
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And specifically, does IHI match up with the IP logs for Michael Shaver? Yes, it does. And states JJ, is that the IP and log history for Merritt Shaver? Yes, it is. Right. This time the statement states JJ and evidence that states 37. Stay on check. Sir, objections are ruled. Can you first pull up Michael Shaver's IP log history and just tell the jury how many pages?
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Not in detail, just generally what she said. Yes, sir.
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And whatever the state revealed to you, did you follow up on whatever was communicated to you by the state?
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No. By that time, you know, Lori had been arrested and charged, and the state would be responsible for it. If they wanted me to interview her, I would have, but it's my understanding they deposed her.
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In this case, there was no—we've covered the grave— But there was no evidence that you're aware of that was unturned from the residents implicating Lori Shaver?
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And you've testified previously that you take the position that there must be some evidence, not it's simply a bare suspicion?
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Okay. And you understand there was no late ballistics, correct?
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No ballistics, you said?
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Yes, sir, I understand.
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You were aware of that, correct?
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Was there any DNA within the residence that linked Lori Shaver to this crime? No, sir. There was no digital device recovered in this case, was there?
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So when I was 18, that was two?
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You would agree with me that creates, to a degree, a lack of evidence?
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No physical evidence.
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No physical evidence, correct?
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So you have a total of three?
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Did you learn in this investigation how Facebook, maintains or takes care of their IP information?
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No, I didn't do anything with IP.
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Okay. Did anybody supply you information about the IP information from Facebook?
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Okay, yep.
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I don't remember learning anything about IP.
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Okay. Had Lori Shaver posed as Michael Shaver on Facebook, you would agree that doesn't mean Lori Shaver murdered Michael Shaver?
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Do you agree with that?
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By itself, no.
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No. Okay. Do you know whether or not anybody in the house could have posed as Michael Shaver?
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Well, it only benefited Lori.
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Okay. You were supplied information about Jeremy Townsend, correct? Correct. And you were aware that Jeremy Townsend was in a relationship with... For some term with Lori, correct? Correct. And if Jeremy Townsend was in the residence, did it enter your mind that possibly Jeremy Townsend had been on the router and the computer?
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Now, you said you're Lori Schieber's husband.
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Well, why would Jeremy Townsend try to break up his own relationship with his wife?
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Okay, let me ask you. You can't segregate some emails correctly. to the exclusion of all these mails. For instance, you can't say, this is from Jeremy, this is from Lori, this may be from Jeremy, this may be from Lori, correct?
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I don't know what you mean.
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How did you become involved in the investigation into the death?
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Did you identify her?
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You know whether or not you have evidence that every single email document that's been put into evidence is a Lori Shaffer exclusive.
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Do you mean Facebook?
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Facebook is seized.
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that every single one came from Lori exclusively. So again, if I say no, then by what you're suggesting, both Lori and someone else, potentially Jeremy, was pretending to be Mike, then sure, two people could be pretending to be Mike.
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You would agree with me. That's a reasonable inference, correct?
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Lori's right there.
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I don't think so, but... Okay.
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The other individual was involved in the homicide.
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And when you see her, is she Savannah?
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I don't know. I don't know.
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You never looked at anything, any accounts with Jeremy Townsend, correct?
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I didn't, no.
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Did anybody?
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I don't think so.
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Did you meet with anybody from Facebook or CenturyLink?
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Do you know whether any of these records are linkable, connected to one particular person, location, or device?
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The second.
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No, I don't know.
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Do you know how long Facebook saves IP addresses?
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I didn't deal with IP addresses at all, sir.
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Pardon me?
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I did not deal with IP addresses at all.
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And how did you meet Ms. Schieber?
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Is there any information in your report dealing with that?
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I don't think in my report. I didn't deal with IP addresses.
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Did you talk to, who was the IP investigator? What's his name? They just testified. Do you know?
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I'll put in the number at the top.
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Detective Strickland, Corporal Niles Strickland? Yeah.
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Did you talk to Strickland about his findings?
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I'm sure we talked, yes, sir.
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I met Ms. Filmer through my brother. He... He knew her from the gym, and he introduced us at her residence at a get-together that he had put together with his now current wife.
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about revolving IPs?
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We talked, yes, sir, but I didn't deal with it. I didn't research that at all. Yes, I signed the probable cause.
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Sure. The Michael Shaver IP logs for Facebook span 13 pages.
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And you factor in other people's findings as well, correct?
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You testify on behalf of the state about and I think I covered this, but about utilities being listed in Lori's name, correct?
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The cell phone bill?
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Well, utilities, I think, on the residence, correct? And other information?
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Earlier today?
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Correct. Do you know how long they've been listed in Lori's name? Earlier today, I talked about the cell phone bill. Okay. Do you know how long that's been in her name or if it was ever in Michael Shaver's name?
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The Maury Shaver Facebook account, how long?
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If I had the records, I might.
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Okay. Did you, in your investigation, go back to discern if they were ever in Michael's name?
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We, again, we asked for, I think we got from, whatever date we got from, I don't have in front of me, but from the dates that I had, it was not in Michael's name.
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Okay, so you just assumed because they were in Lori's name, something happened.
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No, I don't see what you're saying there. No, sir, I didn't. A lot of husbands and wives have their cell phones in one person's name.
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Now, you didn't look into the history of Mr. Townsend, is my understanding, because you felt it was years later and a lot of the records had been gone or were gone in that time frame, correct?
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Are you talking about Facebook?
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Facebook records.
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I don't know why they didn't.
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Pardon me?
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I don't know why they didn't. I didn't deal with Jeremy.
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Page 45 of your deposition. Okay.
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Now, in order to assess the jury with your testimony regarding the information that was contained in those IP logs, was a summary prepared of the information contained in those logs?
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Sorry, page 45? Page 45.
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The question was asked of you. Did you ever look into the history of Mr. Townsend? Page 45, line 13. Okay. Page 14. In your response?
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Okay, yeah. You also have to remember that a lot of what we were doing was years after, you know, a lot of records that would be requested were gone because of the time frame.
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Okay. So, Lori Shaver's records were unreliable. It could be like that. It could be dropped before the court. You're mine. But Mr. Townsend's were unreliable, correct?
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I didn't say unreliable, but... Is that what you said? It said were gone, didn't it say?
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Unreliable?
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Oh, I'm sorry. My memory's unreliable, sir.
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Well, it's afternoon. I'm tired, too.
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And when was that get-together?
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I'm sorry. I know I just read it.
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45 line through 18. It says... You want to read that aloud?
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I will. You also have to remember that a lot of what we were doing was years after, you know, a lot of records that we requested were gone because of the time frame.
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Okay. So, Mr... Townsend's records were not available. They were gone for events occurring at the same time, correct?
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I don't know. I didn't deal with Mr. Townsend at all.
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Late January 2016, I believe.
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That was the answer you supplied, correct?
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Yes, sir, I did.
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And did you speak to Kendall Davidowski?
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Okay. And who was she?
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She, at one time, dated Mike Shaver.
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Okay. Did you look at her computer?
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Her digital data? no and that again was because years had gone by no and hers wasn't available i don't no i don't think that's why i refer you to page 61 line 10 through 12. again this is a couple years afterwards so a lot of things are lost but i felt like we were comprehensive in what we did okay so you didn't look at misstated house fees because of age correct
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And why did your brother put together a gathering at her house?
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Assuming that's what we're talking about. That was your answer, correct? I don't know what you asked me there, but yes, okay.
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That's correct.
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If that's the question you asked me, you just had me read the answer. But yes, okay.
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Having brought Jeremy Townsend to your attention, you were advised, I believe, that this man had been in the military, correct?
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Yes, it was.
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I'm aware that he was.
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Okay. Special forces?
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Specifically, what types of IP addresses were summarized for this process?
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That's what I heard.
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Okay. And yet, still, that didn't trigger anything in your mind as to maybe the dispositional attitude or mindset of Jeremy Townsend to look into, correct?
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We did look into him.
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Okay. You can't say you looked into this man in depth, did you?
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He said it was something for work, a get-together for work.
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We did look into him, yes, sir.
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We did look into him, yes, sir.
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Did you look into him in depth?
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I believe so.
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You believe so? Yes. You never went through any financial records of Mr. Townsend, did you? No. And we just heard your testimony a moment ago that his Facebook data was not looked into because you perceived it as too age old and insufficient to be able to evaluate, correct?
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Sure. I was asked to start getting bank records, financials from the different people that are involved and to review those records as well as social media.
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Yeah, Ms. Shavers was, correct?
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Were you aware of any time that either your brother or his now wife was looking at this shit?
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We looked at hers, yes, sir.
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Right. Now, let's talk about the fire pit in the house. You are aware that there's a considerable distance between the house and that apartment, correct?
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We did a comparison based on IP addresses for both Michael Shaver and Lori Shaver's Facebook activity that were shared IP addresses. Those were IP addresses that hit both of the accounts.
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I don't know what you call a considerable distance, but yeah. We did. I don't know the distance, but yes.
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Did it factor into your mind before you signed that probable cause affidavit that somebody had to give the body to the client?
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Did it factor in? the physical strength of any and all possible suspects yes okay do you know the physical abilities of miss shaver at that date and time meaning what her physical abilities i know her approximate weight i know that everyone said she was athletic she went to the gym muscular is how she was described to me
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Did you look at the grave site, evaluate the depth, and think about the height of the individual and anybody that may be?
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At that time, no.
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I was told it was about three feet deep. I never saw it.
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When did they look at it?
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Did you link that up in your mind possibly with Mr. Townsend versus Ms. Shaver?
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Yes, and I fully believe Ms. Shaver could have drug a body, presumably on a tarp, across grass. That distance to the grave, yes.
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And reaching that conclusion that you just did, did you ask for any specific analysis on the tarp to see if there was any chlorophyll or any ingrained soil within the tarp that would suggest movement by Ms.
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I think his wife was there. She was there sometime before that, I guess.
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Chlorophyll, you mean from grass? From grass, yes. No, sir, no.
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Did you do that?
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As this was a trial exhibit, who actually prepared the summary?
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Did you point that out in your probable cause affidavit?
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And I believe when we discussed this, it was your position that really this case could be evaluated just based on common sense.
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I don't know if those are my words. I don't recall.
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Okay. I'll refer you to your deposition.
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It's a line 51. Excuse me, bottom, page 5, line 1, I think it is.
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Page 50, line 1?
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I think it's page 50, and carrying on to page 51.
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Oh, okay. I think at some point common sense has to come into play.
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The state attorney's office.
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Okay. So that was really the fact that you relied upon it and signed that affidavit, correct?
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So she was living there before that time frame in 2016? Correct. When did you and Ms. Shaver start dating?
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Now, as you went through both sets of IP logs, how many different IP addresses did you find that both the Michael Schaber account and the Lori Schaber account shared? There were 13 shared IP addresses. Now, if someone were to connect to their home wine lot, and we have multiple people in that home using that home wine lot, would they all register the same IP address? Yes, they would.
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I mean, again, this is one line in an entire defo. Go ahead, read it. How much of it do you want me to read?
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Well, was that a fact that you were lying for? I mean, yeah, I'm sure. Okay, okay. Because we know there was no feudal down in the house. We know there was no DNA in the crime site, correct?
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2016, operations started to begin.
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There were no forensics. We know there was no ballistics, correct? Correct. We know there was no eyewitnesses, correct? Correct. So in your conclusion, absent all that evidence, it was your possession just relying on your common sense, correct?
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In so many words, I guess so. According to my depo, yes, sir.
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Again, I want you to tell me, when was the last day that a call went in to Epcot from Michael Shaver's phone?
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November 7th, 2015.
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You've also made the decision to charge Lori Shaver with accessory out in fact, right? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Okay. In your investigation, did you ever determine who the primary offender was?
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I believe it was Lori.
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So Lori committed the crime and Lori's processing herself? Sidebar, please.
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Thank you. Would you tell us what the elements of that crime?
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Helping essentially clean up the crime or cover up the crime afterwards.
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Okay. Could be. I believe so. Okay. So what was the aid or assistance
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Late May of 2016.
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that she was offering her stuff that she would cover.
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So between January and May, what was your relationship at that time?
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Well, covering up the crime for two and a half years and disposing of the body.
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So you said that she disposed of the body. You've offered no evidence in support of that, correct?
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I believe she did.
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Okay. And in all the digital data we've seen, we've seen messages from Lori Shaver to Lori Shaver offering to come around but cry for herself. No. No, sir. We've seen communications from Lori Shaver or presumably Michael Shaver offering any evidence to cover up any crime for anybody.
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No. Anything further, Mr. Wiggs? Nothing further. Thank you, Judge.
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Redirect. Lieutenant Dale, when you refer to totality of the circumstances you're talking about,
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Well, the entire case, everything in the probable cause affidavit. In other words, as I pointed out, if you take any one line in the affidavit or any one thing, no, I wouldn't have arrested Lori for any one thing, for her phone bill, for any one thing. But you have to look at the case as a whole and put all those elements together.
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We didn't have one.
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And then with pushing this case together as a whole, is that where the common sense analysis is?
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Did he communicate, text, phone, anything like that to you?
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And that's what I meant by that. You have to look at it globally, not microscopically at one thing. Because even I would agree, no, you wouldn't arrest someone on one thing, on any case.
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There was discussions about why you didn't look at this at any self-defense cases. Yes. And when you are investigating self-defense cases, are you generally dealing with someone that is shot in the back?
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And you remember what month?
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We had a few conversations here and there, but I was in a relationship. She made it very clear to me the first night that we met that she was in a relationship. So we just didn't communicate.
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In the back of the head, no, sir. No, no, no, sir.
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Are you dealing with individuals whose body has been hidden for over two years?
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When you're dealing with self-defense types of allegations, are they normally reported?
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In my experience, they've always been reported.
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So once again, going to the totality of the circumstances and all the evidence from all the various sources that you reviewed, is that why you excluded self-defense as a potential issue in this case?
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Now, as it relates to getting records for individuals, the Facebook records and other records obtained in this case, many of those are paid by search warrant. Yes. And when we talk about a search warrant, what has to go into a search warrant?
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Publishing page 72 from the Lori Shaver records and page 13 from the Michael Shaver records, can you basically just summarize first for the jury the information that we're looking at?
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The probable cause.
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Meaning what?
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We have to have a reason, a probable cause reason, to look into that person's personal stuff, their Facebook records, their phone records, whatever.
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So there are prohibitions from law enforcement just getting records from anybody that they might want to get records from? Correct. Do you have to then, when you're talking about probable cause, does that have to go to a judge and be approved?
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Yes, it does.
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And all of that was done for the records, the Facebook records, in this case?
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Correct, yes, sir.
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At the time of the investigation, did you have any probable cause to obtain records for any other evidence?
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We did not.
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And is simply Mr. Wiggs telling you, hey, you need to look into Jeremy Townsend's probable cause in order to get his Facebook records?
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Is Mr. Wiggs telling you, hey, you need to look into Bruce Ballew's probable cause to get any records from him?
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And also, going back to common sense, if they now have a single source as a potential person involved in this, why would he give you two picks?
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At the time that you started dating, had she ever told you what her marital status was?
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In my honest opinion, a wild goose chase.
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When you are looking at evidence of someone actively covering up a crime, is that evidence that they were involved in the crime itself?
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Nothing further.
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Mr. Wiggs? Yes, briefly. I understand when the state is just asking these questions here, talking about common sense and having to procure warrants and the need to get a judicial order. You told me you looked insufficiently to Jeremy Townsend, correct? Yes, sir. I had advised the state attorney's office and law enforcement some information regarding him, correct?
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You gave us his name. Is that what you mean? Right. Yes, sir.
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Right. And in the investigation that y'all were doing, you did come up with an unknown male contributor at the scene with regards to DNA, correct?
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In the house. Right. So did that trigger your mind? Hey, maybe what Mr. Wicks is saying, we need to look into this guy, Jeremy Townsend?
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Sure. So this is the... Facebook IP address logs for both of the accounts. The Michael Shaver records are on the left. The Lori Shaver records are on the right. You'll notice that it's in reverse order. So at the bottom of the page is actually the full list activity that we got. And as you go up, if you come forward, recent in history.
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No, because we know Jeremy was in the house.
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Had she ever told you that she was single but she had been previously divorced? No.
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So we get a DNA report indicating Lori's presence is on the ground and a track. And there's another individual that's a male that we can't account for. Don't take any effort relying on this common sense principle to see who that was.
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The summer months.
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Well, first of all, I think the DNA wasn't able to be compared, if I remember. I'd have to look at a report. Second of all, if it turned out to be Jeremy's or anyone's, it would just show they were in the house, which we know he was in the house.
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At the location potentially of the conflict, correct?
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She told me that she was in a relationship with a gentleman, but at that time never got into any marital status.
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In the house.
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In the house.
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Okay. Okay.
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No, but it would show he was in the house.
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Okay, but you don't know what's going on in the house, correct?
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Okay, well, you're telling me we have her DNA in the house, so that doesn't mean she did it. Which I'm finding out months after I arrest her.
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Through the state, correct?
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Okay, yes, sir.
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Did you ask Jeremy Townsend for a swab?
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He had nothing to compare it to.
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See if he'd send it off to FDLA and see if they could get a match?
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We had nothing to compare it to.
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Did you try?
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We had nothing to compare it to.
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Ma'am, did you try?
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We had nothing to compare it to, so no.
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Thank you, Judge.
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Thank you. State? Was there any DNA to compare to the TARP? No, sir. Strap? No, sir. Anything in the group? No, sir. The home, when that DNA spot would have happened, would have been at least two years since the fire pit and cement slab was installed. Yes, sir. And so we are talking about two years' worth of people going in and out of that sliding bus.
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That's correct.
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And in that house, we know that she had a commitment ceremony to Travis Filmer, so he's been in that house. Yes. We know her son, Amy, has been in that house. Yes, sir. We know that she has her son Aiden that's been in there.
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Do you remember giving a deposition in this case?
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They're on Facebook. There are pictures of parties and things like that going on in that house. Yes, sir. There's countless people going through that site. Yes, sir. So would there be any evidentiary benefit to comparing anything to that DNA?
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Do you remember saying anything different about what her representations of her marital status was at that time?
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Even if you've got DNA, which there was nothing to compare to on the floor, would that tell you when that DNA got there? There's also been an assertion that the arrest was made based upon proximity to the grave. Because Lori was the closest person to where the body was found. When was the body found?
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March 9th, 2018.
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The information that you'll see is an action which tells you what kind of activity was done while it was logged in. You'll get the date and time. The time is in universal coordinated time, which, depending on whether or not we're in daylight savings or standard time, is either four or five hour time, hour permit time.
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When was she arrested?
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September 17th, 2020.
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So there was a lot of other stuff that went into it more than just fraud.
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Nothing further, Judge. Mr. Wiggs.
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And just real briefly, you find the body at what time? Time of day or date?
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When did you get the Facebook record?
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I think also 2018, I think. Okay.
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So you have the records.
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Now, at some point, did you purchase a firearm from Lori Shaver? Yes. And what was the circumstances that that happened?
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At the time that we first met?
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You have the body. Obviously, the records aren't very much of a telltale sign. If you wait two foreign years, it still has Lori's shape. Correct.
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I was talking about when you started dating her. Did she ever talk about her marital status?
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Well, it wasn't just the records either.
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Thank you. Anything further? No, sir.
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I'm Jimmy.
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How y'all doing?
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Do you know Lori? Yes. When did you first meet Lori?
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It was in the summer of 2014. Where did you meet her? Don Mealy Chevrolet.
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Where were you working at the time?
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There, Don Mealy.
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What was your position there?
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What was the context of the meeting that you had at the Chevrolet dealership with Florida Sugar?
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They were buying a truck.
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Can you say they? Who were you referring to?
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Her and her old man.
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Do you remember his name?
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It's Mr. Shaver.
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Michael Shaver?
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Michael Shaver, yeah.
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And what kind of truck was she looking at?
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I think it was Silverado.
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Did they end up purchasing a vehicle that first time that they went to the dealership?
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Did there come a time that she returned to the dealership?
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Do you remember giving that deposition?
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And when she returned to the dealership, do you remember how she was dressed?
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Short shorts, cowboy boots on.
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And was her husband with her?
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What was the purpose of her coming that second time?
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I really don't remember, to be honest with you. It was something to do with we owed them something or something for the truck, I believe.
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Yeah, they did. They did. Yeah. After that purchase had been completed, did you end up texting with Lori Shaver back and forth?
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When a homicide case in particular is being investigated by the Lake County Sheriff's Office, is it assigned to just one detective or a whole team working on this issue?
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Yeah, about the truck and all.
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And at some point, did those text messages move on to something other than just the truck purchase? Yeah. Did you end up having a physical relationship with her?
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I remember having a deposition, correct.
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Yeah, me and my girlfriend split up. Sidebar, please.
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Did you end up having a physical relationship with Lauren Schaefer?
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Yes, after me and my old lady split up.
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You had something about a split up. You were still married at that time.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We've got to go ahead and refer to page 4, line 25. Do you know any copy of that deposition? Go ahead and read to yourself line 24 and 25.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, we were just, we wasn't married at that time.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was your relationship status?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We'd been together for, well, me and my wife has been together since 2001. Okay. So, yeah.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At the time you started the physical relationship with Lauren Schaefer, was it real?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was girlfriend and boyfriend, I reckon.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sorry, what was your relationship with your wife?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was girlfriend and boyfriend, I reckon, you'd say, before you get married, I mean.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Detective Strickland, let me just look at what falls there. When you talk about the universal time, what is that?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The relationship that you had with Ms. Shaver, how long did that last?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not long at all. Not long at all.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How many did you have?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did she want more out of the relationship than you did?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It's one of the best.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Good. Sidebar, please. Come on up.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did she want more out of this relationship?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Where would the physical acts between you and Laura Shamer occur?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At her house.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what time of day would they occur?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know. It's just been years, man.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you remember if she was working in an office remotely at that time?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She wasn't working in no office. She was working at home.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was the last time that you had any contact with either Lori Shaver or Michael Shaver?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So it's a, basically it's a time zone that for many different purposes was used so that we don't have different time zones for everything. And because we all live in different time zones, things are rough.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was before the summer was up, so it only was probably a month and a half, probably. I'd say June, July. I guess July or August would have been in 2014 was the last contact.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After the relationship between you and Lori Shaver ended, was there a time frame that Michael Shaver actually reached out to you to ask for help with something?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Probably about a month later, if not right close to it. He called me and said, Lori's trying to kill herself or she's trying to do something like that. And I said... All right. Sustained.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Without getting into anything.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He reached out and asked for help.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, and I told him, that's between y'all.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you have any contact with either of them after that?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Have you ever gone back over to the chamber after that?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nothing. Thank you. Mr. Williamson.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, Williamson.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sidebar, please. Come on up. All right, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the court would instruct the jurors to disregard any testimony dealing with violence as testified to by Mr. Ballew. All right. Is that satisfactory to the parties? Yes, sir. Okay. Thank you. Please proceed. I've already sent a note. Yes, sir. Mr. Wiggs.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, that didn't happen at that time.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Had she ever told you that she was divorced?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. What was her ex-husband's name then? Michael. And what did she tell you about the whereabouts of her ex-husband at that time?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You've talked about the time. What other information are on this IP? The IP address itself. Now, the area, first of all, that is in the blue box, both on the Michael Shaver records and the Lori Shaver records, what is the significance of those two entries in that one box?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She just told me that they were divorced and that he wanted nothing to do with the family, did not know where he was, and he was not around.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So those are the same shared IP address that both of the accounts share. conducted activity on within a certain amount of time with each other.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And had she expressed to you that he left and wasn't having contact with the children? Correct. And how long did you date until you moved into her home?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
A few months.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you remember about when you actually moved in, what month that would have been?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
71.49.14.136.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
71.49.14.136. Okay. And then what is the next line in that one box? The next line is the time. So January 5th, 2016.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Probably July, late July.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And who all was living at that home at that time?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Lori, her two kids, and Becca.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Circumstances where I got a text, would you be interested in a firearm or someone that you know?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And Rebecca is?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That would be your brother's girlfriend at the time? Correct. And they're now married? Correct. How long did Rebecca stay living at that home? I don't know. Did she end up moving out around December 31st, 2016?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
at 16.05 Universal Coordinated Time. January 10th, 2016 at 2.08 Universal Coordinated Time.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And then what is the last line that is in the blue box? The action that was done. Now, what about the red box? Is that the same IP address that is here in the blue box area? It is the same IP. What is the time difference between when the device accessing the Michael Schaefer records access compared to the device accessing the Lori Schaefer records? Two of the green.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I have no idea.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And in December 31st, 2015, did you have some sort of commitment ceremony with Lori?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm sorry, you just said December 31st, 2015.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
For correct me, December 31st, 2016.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when you say commitment ceremony, what is that?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Just a commitment to each other under God.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So approximately within an hour. Correct. And because it's utilizing the same IP address, that indicates that those devices were in the same hearing. That's correct. All right. Moving on. to the next slide. First of all, what is the date of this activity? The date of this activity is April 3rd, 2016. Now, this particular April 3rd date, is that utilizing the same IP address? Yes, it is.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And have you had any discussions about why you wouldn't just get legally married at that point?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And why did she tell you that she didn't want to get legally married?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Lori, when we were talking about marriage and conversation, told me that she did not want to sign... All right, sidebar, please.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sure. Typically, it's an entire team of detectives that are working on it because we all bring different things to the table.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Why did she tell you she did not want to get legally married?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She told me that due to the extreme trauma abuse of her previous marriage, she did not want to sign a contract with another man that she felt like gives the man to make her property.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And who was that text from?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. Do you remember giving a deposition where I asked you a very similar question?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And at that time, you said she didn't want to get married because she had financial issues. 100%. Okay.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Lori Shaver.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
1139, 1207.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not what you just said. No, no. Together with what I just said.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So that's within a half an hour? Correct. Moving on, April of 2016, specifically April 21st, was there another instance of closed activity?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. I'm going to go ahead and show you that deposition. I'm just going to go ahead and ask you to reference that section where you're talking about that. Yes, sir. And at that time, you did not say anything about the violence. It was about financial issues. I did not. Okay. Now when you're testifying, when your wife is facing murder charges, now your testimony has changed.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And did you express potential interest? Yes. And can you describe the firearm that you missed out on?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, there is. And Scott, can you describe that? The action on the Mike Shaver account with a login and the activity on Lori Shaver's account with an uploaded photo. And what was the time difference? 1709, 1741, 30 minutes. Moving on.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was your background, training, experience with various forms of financial, social media records, things like that, from your economic background, useful in the investigation business?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now in May 3rd of 2016, what was significant about the activity on the two accounts here?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She was facing murder charges when we had that deposition.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But your testimony has changed.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It has not.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, in September of 2016, did you help pour a cement slab in the backyard of the residence where you were now living? I did. And who helped you with that? Lori. Did your brother help you with that as well? No, sir. In order to do that... Did you go and rent a cement mixer from Home Depot? I did. All right. I'm showing you. Show defense. You've been previously demarked with sentences of AA.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The same IP address, Mike Shaver's account with a login. Maury Shaver's account was a uploaded photo. The times were constantly different.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I want to focus specifically on Michael Shaver's account. Did you review Facebook messages from that account between the Michael Shaver Facebook account and Vanessa's account? Yes, I did. Moving on, what was the first message and the date that that message was sent from the Michael Shaver? So the first date was February 27, 2016, 743 Universal Coordinated Time.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you recognize this receipt? Sure. And is that the receipt for the cement mixer that you rented as a help for this?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, it looked like one. All right.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You're all right. This time, the stated move states AA. And to evidence, this states number 27. Any objection? No objection.
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did you find Facebook messages preceding the delivery of any sort of flowers to Vanessa Townsend, the Facebook record? Yes, they did. I'm not sure if it was previously been admitted into evidence of states number 32. Are those those records? Yes, they are. Moving on to the messages themselves.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And can you go ahead and just read out when that was rented?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it's a pink 38 special with black handle and a little bit of chrome or gray. Did you end up purchasing this weapon? Yes.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When it was rented? Yes. The date says 9-12-2016.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At that commitment ceremony that you referenced in December of 2016, what was Lori wearing? A white dress. Okay. And did someone escort her to where you were?
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Part 4: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was the message sent that said that the individual utilized in the Mike Shaver account had something for Miss Townsend? It is the top, which is on 10 pages. April 5th, 2016. Was there a phone number shared to the desk accounts utilizing this account? Yes, there was. And what was that content and when was that sent?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I'm trying to remember who that was.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was it your grandfather?
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir, there was.
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Part 3: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there basically some sort of official there doing the proceeding? Correct. For anyone looking at this, this would look like a wedding. 100%. And had you represented to everyone that you were getting buried at that time? No. So no one thought that this was the wedding? No. Showing your witness what had been previously marked as CCC. Do you recognize that photograph?
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Welcome to Crimatorium, where loss of faith in humanity is delivered to you one case at a time.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It was presumably the last photo taken of his face before he was killed.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It seemed like, well, my parents would just, you know, spank us or hit us as discipline. So it seemed like at age seven, around then, it started getting a little bit more intense. That's something I remember.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
This is a reflection of the left eye as depicted in Exhibit 159, correct? Mr. Alexander's left eye, correct. And this is the eye we see as reflected in Exhibit 159. This is a focus on that.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
And we can tell the height relative to the cornea, correct? The height, the level of the camera relative to the cornea? You stood up and you demonstrated us how you could see that the photograph was being taken.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
What you've done for purposes of demonstration here is that you've shown us a figure that is visible on your equipment but not visible, completely as visible here, of a person holding a camera, correct?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
And this outline you've done That's not an alteration to the photograph, is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Jody and Travis exchanged 82,000 emails throughout their relationship. Jody has filed for appeal twice since her conviction, both citing prosecutorial misconduct. Her conviction for first-degree murder has been upheld each time. The prosecution team wanted to introduce evidence that Jodi tortured animals. Torturing pets.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Well, I was spanked before on occasion, just it seemed like the frequency and the intensity of it increased around that age.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
This was according to something she had told one of the defense mental health specialists, Alice DeViolette. The judge felt that what Jodi reported to LaViolette didn't amount to animal abuse. Speaking of Alice LaViolette, she was a strong advocate for Jodi and named Travis as the abuser. Her testimony caused a huge backlash towards her by defenders of Travis.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
One of her books on Amazon received numerous bad reviews as a result, and a change.org was set up asking that she no longer be allowed to speak at domestic abuse seminars based on her testimony during the Arias trial. She currently has a counseling practice in California. The following clip is Jody speaking to the court before the delivery of her sentence.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
What do you mean by that, frequency and intensity?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Judge, I just want to respond to a few of the things that were said earlier. My legal team and I tried to settle this case on four different occasions before trial. We tried two times before the 2013 trial, and what Samantha said was not accurate. I was not the one who refused to settle.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Well, just there were, I think that's the first year my dad started using a belt. My mom began to carry a wooden spoon in her purse.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It was Travis's family who not only refused to settle and insisted on both trials, but then they bragged about it all over social media, including posting a group photo on the steps of this very courthouse, holding out all of their thumbs down, refusing to settle. As for not wanting the death penalty, it's my firm belief that death would bring me untold peace and freedom.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
That's my personal belief. If I died today, I would be free and I would be at peace. For years, that's exactly what I wanted. but I had to fight for my life just like I did on June 4th, 2008, because I realized how selfish it would be for me to escape accountability for this mess that I've created.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I have two brothers, two sisters, several nieces and nephews, a mom, a dad, eight aunts, nine uncles, over 20 cousins that I've grown up with, as well as countless friends, all of whom would suffer greatly if I took my own life or if I allocated and begged for the death penalty and then got it. I did not drag Travis through the mud. I protected Travis's reputation for years.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I did say he was an influential person. I kept his skeletons in the closet all to my own detriment for years. What I testified to was not false. They were not made up. They were not things that I wanted to get out into public either. But when I was on the stand, I told the truth.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Your Honor was also here during the second trial when a lot of evidence came to light that supported my testimony from people that never even knew me but knew Travis. I do remember as I testified to this I'm sorry, I think I would have testified to this in the 2014 trial. I do remember the moment when the knife went into Travis's throat and he was conscious. He was still trying to attack me.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
You were just now telling us that your mother carried a spoon with her. What did she do with that spoon?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It was I who was trying to get away, not Travis, and I finally did. I never wanted it to be that way, Judge. The gunshot did not come last, it came first, and that was when Travis lunged at me just as I testified to, and just as the state's own detective testified two years ago before he and Juan got together and decided to change their story for trial.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Most of you have heard the name Jodi Ann Arias, and it probably conjures feelings about her innocence or guilt. Some hate her, some idolize her. Questions arise like, was she really defending herself? Does she have a mental illness? And if so, what is it? Was the killing of Travis premeditated?
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
As for not being abused, maybe I wasn't as badly abused as Travis and his siblings were by their parents. But I didn't consider it abuse either. I didn't consider being beaten and hit and all those things abuse. That was discipline in my family. That's how my parents were disciplined by their parents. That's why I didn't consider those things abuse. I understand now that that's abuse.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
So for Samantha to say that I was not a victim of abuse is wrong because I was. And my family understands that now. And we, like my mom said, I didn't come with instructions. They did the best they could. They didn't do it because they're bad parents. They did it because they thought that they were disciplining us. And that's the best that they knew how.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
The most important thing I wanna say is that I am very sorry for the enormous pain that I've caused the people that love Travis. I never thought I would cause so many people so much pain. I live every day wishing that I could undo what I did to Travis and wishing that I could take away their pain, just put it onto myself.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
To this day, I can't believe that I was capable of doing something that terrible. I can't even, I'm truly disgusted and I'm repulsed with myself. I'm horrified because of what I did and I wish there was some way I could take it back.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It was a wooden kitchen spoon that she would keep in her purse, and we were misbehaving, my brother and I. This was before Angela and Joseph were born, although it continued through that point. If we were misbehaving, she would use it on us. Sometimes she would pull the car over and, you know, if we were just being brats or something.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It's chilling and it gives us more of a candid peek of the real Jodi and what happens to people when they cross her.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
You said that these were frequent, these incidents where your mother would hit you. They were frequent and intense. I think those are your words, right?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
They were definitely intense, but they increased in frequency as I got a little older.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Can you discern for us how many times a week your mother would beat you with this?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I don't recall how many times particularly, but it seemed like it could go anywhere from four times a week to...
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It seems that she's trying to elicit sympathy for events that a lot of us experienced as children, being spanked by their parents. It's safe to say that what she went through pales in comparison to what she did to Travis. Also, because of her history of lying, one has to question everything she says.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
This particular line of testimony really demonstrates to me her level of narcissism, given the fact that she killed Travis in such a brutal way. Jodi's mother, Sandy, responded to these allegations by simply saying, I am a mom. Just like any other mom, I did the best job I could raising my children. Part 2. Possible Diagnoses. The Four Therapists. Plus Dr. Grande.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Jodi appears to be intelligent, yet it doesn't seem that she applied that intelligence to schooling or higher-end jobs. She indicated that she took classes in real estate as she was interested in pursuing a career in that field, yet she didn't finish. The course typically lasts three months. If she was interested in that field, why didn't she just take the full course and become an agent?
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
The answer could be lack of funds or even time constraints. My own theory is that Jodi lives in the moment. She adapts to whatever situation she's in and becomes whoever or whatever her partner at the time needs her to be. Case in point, the quickness with which she was baptized into the Mormon church by Travis.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Also, with her looks and manipulative ways, she felt she could skirt by as long as she had a man in her life to take care of her. That's not to say that when she sets her mind to something that she can't make plans and follow through with those plans. This is obvious with the way the prosecutor says she planned and executed Travis's murder.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
the rented car, the three gas cans, her phone being turned off during key times, the upside-down license plate, the fact that she had the gun that was stolen from her grandparents, etc., etc. There were three mental health professionals that evaluated Jodi for the trial, and each one diagnosed something a little different.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
One diagnosed her with PTSD and that the killing was a result of a fight-or-flight mode Jodi was in. Another said she was a victim of domestic violence. The prosecution witness diagnosed Jodi with borderline personality disorder and that she was terrified of being abandoned.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
According to Dr. Grande, a mental health professional who has a YouTube channel, he says Jodi has symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder, more so than borderline. He didn't give her a definitive diagnosis. He said that sometimes people just do bad things. If you haven't watched his channel, I recommend it. I'll leave a link in the notes. Part 3. The Crime
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
This case was a media sensation, with thousands of spectators glued to their TVs watching the trial, including myself. Many people defended her because they believed that Travis was a player and that he used her. They also believed Jodi's claims that Travis was a pedophile. If you're not familiar with this case, there are plenty of videos and articles that cover it in depth. Part 1.
Crimeatorium
Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
On June 8, 2008, Travis's roommates discovered him deceased in the shower of his Mesa, Arizona home. During the investigation, his ex-girlfriend, Jodi Arias, was brought up many times as a possible suspect. It was stated that she was obsessed with him and often arrived at his home uninvited. She was also suspected of slashing the tires to his car.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Travis suffered a gunshot wound to the head and 27 stab wounds all over his body. He had a deep gash on his neck that was six inches wide and one and a half inches deep. The medical examiner, Kevin Horn, testified that Travis's carotid artery, jugular vein, and trachea were slashed and he had defensive wounds on his hands.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Fingerprints were located throughout the home and officers located a camera that had been placed in the washer. Investigators were able to view the pictures from the camera and match the fingerprints found in the home to Jody, which led them to question and arrest her. In the interrogation, Jody informed Detective Flores that she didn't go to Travis' house while on a road trip at that time.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
He used several investigative techniques to get the truth from her, but Jody stuck to that story. Later on in the investigation, Jody told the story about the intruders entering Travis's home and shooting him, then allowing Jody to leave the house, retrieving all of her belongings on the way out.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
She states that she left Travis behind and didn't call the police because these intruders threatened to do the same thing to her and her family if she told anyone. There were holes in this story, so that's when she settled on her final story, that she was defending herself from Travis after he became angry that she dropped his new camera and he attacked her. Part 4.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Trial, Verdict, and Sentencing On July 9, 2008, Jody was indicted by a grand jury for first-degree murder, for which she pleaded not guilty. Opening arguments commenced on January 2, 2013, and closing arguments began on May 4, 2013. Jody took the stand and testified for 18 days, an amount of time described as unprecedented.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
The interaction between her and the prosecutor, Juan Martinez, was interesting. The jury deliberated for 15 hours before finding Jody guilty of first-degree murder. After the verdict was read, the crowds outside cheered. In the penalty phase, Jodi gave an allocution to the jury as to why her life should be spared.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
A few months before trial, and by that I mean jury selection, my hair was past my waist, and I donated it. Additionally, I've designed a t-shirt. This is the t-shirt. of which 100% of the proceeds go to support nonprofit organizations, which also assist other victims of domestic violence.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
In the end, the death penalty was taken off the table due to one lone juror voting against it. After the penalty phase retrial, Jody was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. She was also ordered to pay more than $32,000 in restitution to Travis's family.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
A side note about the one juror who voted against the death penalty, she claimed that her life was threatened after her name was leaked to the public. It also emerged that Juan Martinez had been the prosecutor in a case involving her ex-husband. She claims she let the bailiff know, but she was allowed to continue as a juror. You can watch the trial in its entirety from the channel CrokerQueen123.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Jodi's Childhood Jody was born on July 9, 1980. She describes her childhood as happy for the most part, up until she turned seven. It was at that age, she testifies, her parents began to use corporal punishment on her and her three siblings. She describes to the court how her mother and father carried out this punishment.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
A link will be provided. Part 5 Aftermath A GoFundMe has been set up for a retrial that her fans hope will set her free. There are also sites that sell t-shirts dedicated to Jodi, as well as a website called Jodi Arias is Innocent.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
One can only imagine that having others dedicate so much time on one's behalf would feed into a narcissist's feelings of superiority, if that is indeed what Jodi suffers from. It's perplexing to me that she has so many defenders given the fact that she described Travis's last moments to the court at the penalty phase of the trial.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Maybe there's a theory that has been written about that on one of those sites. A quote from one of those sites says, Remember, each day that passes takes us one day closer to Jody's release date. As part of the research for the case, I watched a documentary called If I Can't Have You on Discovery+. The defense attorney, Jennifer Wilmot, spoke about the case against Jody.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
It is evident that she truly believes in Jody's innocence from the vantage point of defending herself against Travis's abuse. She makes some compelling points. The strongest one in my mind was the scene of the crime. To paraphrase, she states Jody did not plan this murder as she left a contaminated crime scene. Plus, it looked more like it was a crime of passion because of how messy it was.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
She spoke about how Travis was manipulative with Jody and that she always did what Travis wanted. She also mentioned that Travis was unfaithful to Jody. As for her initial lies to the detectives, Wilmot's response to this was that most defendants lie at first as a defense mechanism. She also feels that Jodi didn't get a fair trial because of the media sensation that it was.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
The prosecutor, Juan Martinez, took photo ops with the crowd that gathered outside the courtroom every day, which did add to the media sensation and seemed inappropriate for such a high-profile case. One of the defense psychologists, Professor Robert Geffner, said that Martinez was portrayed as a saint in the trial.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
He also states that he is in possession of nearly 15 pages of text messages between Travis and other women, and in those messages, Travis gets sexually graphic. Bottom line, Jodi was living in another state and had therefore escaped her so-called abuser, yet she traveled from California to Arizona to see Travis.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I know that abusive relationships are complicated, but this is just one piece of the whole puzzle. She was not a teenager at the time she was dating Travis. She was a grown woman who is responsible for the decisions she makes. There was no evidence presented that backed up her allegations of abuse from Travis, nor pedophilia.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
I think it was established that Travis looked at Jody as not a life partner, but a sexual one. Does this justify her murdering Travis? No, it doesn't. Jody slaughtered Travis in life and again after he died by making unsubstantiated allegations that he was not around to defend. In the notes below, there are some links to more information regarding this case.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
Speaking of that, your life was pretty ideal up until about age seven. Is something different after age seven?
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
There are photographs of Travis at the crime scene and at the time of the autopsy. If you want to view those, some can be found on Wild About Trial. There were many twists and turns in this case and here are a few that I found interesting. Travis's friends testified that Jodi would often enter Travis's home uninvited as she knew the code to his door.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
They also stated that once the code was changed, she entered through the doggie door and even slept under the Christmas tree. Jodi won a Christmas singing contest in prison and she and her cellmates received a turkey dinner.
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Jodi Arias | Case Highlights and Insights
After practicing law for 30 years, Prosecutor Juan Martinez agreed to be disbarred rather than go to trial for years of accusations of sexual harassment and professional misconduct. By agreeing to the disbarment, he is not admitting to any wrongdoing. A photo expert testified in court that he could see a reflection of Jody holding a camera in Travis's eye.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. There was a period of time, I understand, where y'all were intending to build a duck pond, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Tell me about the duck pond and what the plan was there.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So we had like a bird farm. We had a bunch of different birds and we needed like a place for the ducks. So we built like this big like hole pond shaped thing, like kind of like an artificial pond. And I remember me and my brother, we got these like little like red plastic shovels. And I mean, we were going to dig the hole, make the pond. And that was like the intended use for it.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you guys finish it or? No. What did you do?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
no we never ended up finishing it um we ended up later on turning it into a fireplace okay had there been previous discussions you were going to put a fireplace when you abandoned the duck pond i mean yeah once we decided we weren't going to do the duck ponds we were thinking about either doing a fireplace or like a pool okay after this happened at the house what happened to mom and jeremy
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They broke up. I mean, the last time that they were really together, I guess, was the day my dad died. They broke up, so obviously they stopped seeing each other. But he would... I remember one time we were at a stoplight, and he pulled up next to our car. This happened on multiple occasions, and he would scream at us from his car, like, tell us to roll our window down.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I remember we were going to this Publix, and he would follow us through the store to try and talk to us, and then we switched Publix to a different Publix. He came to that one, too. I remember he came to us in Walmart one time. He was driving by our house, trying to talk to us, talk to my mom.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Isabel, you met me some time ago, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was the last time that Jeremy drove by the residence that you can recall?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At our old house, it was quite a while ago, but we've moved since then, and he has driven by the house we're living at now.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was the last time, you think? How many months ago?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It wasn't too long ago, probably less than a year ago.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you have on the property... A blue tarp. And by that, I mean the type of tarp you see sometimes put over roofs if there's a leak or to cover a boat or an item.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you have, you know, sometimes you see on boats or other items, straps to hold it down. Did you all have any of those on the property?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Met me at or about the time of your mother's arrest?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Frank Merritt, you know, you recall Frank Merritt?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you ever go to a tractor show? No.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, yeah.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there a man, Frank Merritt, present that you recall?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, we did go. I mean, that's Frank Merritt and yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you recall leaving the tractor show early or anything like that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I was really, really sick that day and it was really, really hot. I'm really sensitive to the heat. Let me interrupt you there.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you have any health issues?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, I have like autoimmune issues.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Any arthritis or other issues?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Isabel Shaver has been called to the stand. Ms. Shaver, please state and spell your full legal name.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Right, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I mean, I think it's arthritis. We're still trying to figure out what it is. They just have diagnosed me with hypermobility for now.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Robert Marcato. Yes. Did you ever observe Mr. Marcato coming to the house to remove your father because of an injunction or any reason?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I had, did I not, a brief discussion with you?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
During that event, did you see your mom waving a gun at him or anything like that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Scott Amatuccio. How often would Mr. Amatuccio come to the residence?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He wouldn't come over that often because he did live far.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Wilma Nichols. Do you know a Wilma Nichols?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Our neighbor?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We did, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Did Miss Nichols come by and socialize with y'all at all?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No. We've hung out with her probably once when we first moved there.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'd started this with a discussion about your mom being arrested. Do you feel that it's imperative that you step up and tell this jury what happened?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And upon that brief discussion... we had requested that Ms. Johnson be appointed, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I do think it's important that I say what happened, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And everything that you've testified before this jury, is it true and is it accurate?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No embellishments?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nobody pressured you?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you've had your own advice of counsel, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you. That's all I have. Thank you.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. Thank you. All right, state. Sir, may I please report?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir. Ms. Shaver, you need a minute?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I'm okay.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You said your birthday's coming up and you're about to turn 16? Mm-hmm. And I'm not trying to pick on you, but these microphones and the recordings are recording everything. Sometimes it's hard to understand mm-hmms and uh-huhs and things like that. So as much as possible, try to remember to say yes and no.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
If you say it, because we all do, I'll probably correct you. Let's just make sure the record's clear, okay? All right. Now... The events that we are talking about obviously are some much longer ago, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We're talking about stuff that happened in 2015, 2016, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And some of this stuff that you've talked about is even older than that.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And so when we are talking about timeframes in November of 2015, how old would you have been then?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, if I ask you any questions you do not understand, would you please ask me to rephrase the question, repeat the question, or try to ask the question in a different way?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
2015. So I would have been awful at math. Oh my gosh.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Six and seven years old. Sounds about right. Okay. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And there's obviously been a long passage of time since that. Is that a yes?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. Sorry. Sorry. That's okay.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, it's fair to say that you don't want anything bad to happen to your mom, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You said you were very close to your mom. She's like your best friend.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that you definitely want your family to stay together.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, correct. Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I want to talk to you before we start talking about the event that led to your mother's arrest. I want to talk to you about some of the other stuff that you had mentioned. At one point, you said that your dad would drug your mom to put her to sleep. Do you remember saying that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. During the course... of this case you've actually been talked to by law enforcement by the children's advocacy center and myself yes and that interview with law enforcement would have been at the time of your mother's arrest in 2020
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And then you went to the Child Advocacy Center and were asked questions about things that were going on a few months after that, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, correct.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And then the deposition where I asked you questions about this was in this calendar year, 2024. Yes. And there are going to be some times that I'm going to go ahead and refer to those various statements. And I've got the transcripts of them so you can review them if it helps refresh your memory. All right. Have you reviewed any of those?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And previously when you talked about the allegations about your dad, quote, drugging your mom, you were five years old at that point, correct? Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I believe so.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And what you described is you would see him put some sort of powder in a drink and give it to her.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you recall your father?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But when asked what he put in the drink, you didn't know, correct? All right. And you didn't know what it was.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You don't know where he would get it.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And quite frankly, you have no idea what he was putting in that drink.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. But you don't know where it is or where it came from?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. Now, the morning that Your father was killed. You are saying that he was not living at the house at the time, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And previously you had stated that the last time he had lived at home was before you were in second grade. Do you remember saying that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is that accurate?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I would say first, second grade-ish.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So you hadn't lived at home at all since you were in first or second grade?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. And you were in third grade during the 2015-2016 calendar year, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Michael Shaver.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I think so.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you need to think about it a little bit, or are you good with that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was your relationship like with Michael Shaver?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure what grade I was in. I did two grades over the summer, so it kind of makes it a little... Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, if your school records indicated you were in third grade in the school year of 2015-2016, you would be... Yeah, no, I'm just... So second grade would be the 2014-2015 calendar year.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Is that correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. So you're saying that he had not lived with you since before August or September of 2014? Yes. Okay. And the event that we're here to talk about, you don't know what grade you were in when that happened, right?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. You don't know who your teacher was when this happened, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We didn't really have much of a relationship. He wasn't very present. He worked at night, and so he slept all day during the day. And any time he was home, we weren't really allowed outside of our rooms. We didn't have a relationship, really. He really wasn't a father to me.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You don't know what month this happened in, correct? Correct. You don't know what year this happened in, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You can't think of any holidays that this event was near, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No. Not necessarily holidays, but like birthdays. I know it was, I'm pretty sure it was after my brother's birthday. I would say probably spring, summer-ish. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And previously you had said you thought it was spring or summer because you had recently been to the beach.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And so that's in keeping with your brother's birthday?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, his birthday is April 1st.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when you say spring or summer, what do you mean by that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Like, I mean, anywhere between spring or summer. I mean, that was so long ago.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I understand. Let me try to ask a better question. I may think spring starts in March. You may think spring starts in May. So when you say spring, what months are we talking about here when you're saying spring or summer?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Probably starting in like... April, May.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I feel like that's when like the school year ends is like May. So like that'd be almost summer.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when would summer end to you?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
August, September.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So this event that led to you getting a gun, shooting at your father, having him eventually killed in front of you, and then being threatened, having your life threatened. The best you can come up with as far as when this happened is sometime in some year between April and August.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The day that this happened, the events that you have described all happened in between the timeframe that you woke up and went to school that day, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that would be from seven o'clock in the morning till about eight o'clock in the morning, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And. What you are saying happened is that your father showed up unannounced sometime in that timeframe, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You're saying that he hadn't lived there since 2004, since about August of 2014. When was the last time that you had seen him prior to him showing up and having this confrontation with your mother?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Last time I saw him, um, I don't remember the exact day or anything. I mean, I remember like certain memories because they weren't good days. Like they, you know, had bad events happen on those days. Cause I mean, like I said, this was so long ago, so I don't remember just like, you know, days. I just remember like those bad events that took place. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In relation to the sign that you saw your father filled in front of you, how long had it been since the last time you had seen your father?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I would probably say a few months.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you do not remember how he was dressed?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I believe he was wearing a pair of shorts.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was the atmosphere calm? How would you describe the household?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you remember previously when I asked you that question in a deposition saying something different? Would it help refresh your memory if I showed you your transcript?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing you your deposition, page 37. And line 9. I'm going to go ahead and ask you to read to yourself the question on lines 7 and 8, and then your response.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I said I don't remember. Yeah. Okay. And I also just said that I'm not sure, but I think it was short.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I understand. I just want to make sure we understand. When I asked you these questions previously this year, you didn't remember them.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And there's obviously pictures of his dead body wearing shorts. Did you review that before your testimony changed?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So he shows up. You haven't seen him in a long time. An argument starts out on the back porch between your mother and father, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You went out and saw them arguing.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I believe the way you described it is, and if I have the time frame that this happened, please correct me, but he was sitting in a chair and his foot was on your mother's head, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was very combative. It was very...
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you described how he was kicking her with his other foot, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, it started out with him kicking her in the stomach, in the back. Then she was screaming. So then he put his other foot on her head to stop her from screaming, pushing her head into the ground, basically suffocating her, choking her. And he continued to kick, but obviously because he's... He's using his other foot now. It wasn't as strong of a kick.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
As you described it, he's sitting here with one foot not on her neck, on the side of her head.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, correct.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
An ear in the back and an ear in the stomach.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You go back in the house, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
tense there was a lot of tension constantly it's not calm it was the complete opposite of calm nobody whenever whenever he was home it was just i mean it was scary it was like we i don't know we were just stuck in our rooms all day and then like whenever we weren't it was just he was very aggressive and he we just we didn't have that type of relationship no it wasn't a calm household
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You had a phone. I believe you described it as... an emergency device that you could call 911 in the house, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You did not call 911, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you stated you were never taught how to call 911, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Correct, but that's not the reason why we didn't call 911. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You go into your mother's room, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you go to her end table.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, correct.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My name is Isabel Shaver, I-S-A-B-E-L-L-E-S-H-A-V-E-R.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you get her pink and black gun.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
showing you what's been previously entered into evidence. It states 26. Do you recognize this firearm?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's not the gun.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, so she had a different pink and black gun?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How many pink and black guns did she have?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I mean, I'm assuming two. I'm not sure. We had a lot of guns in the house.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So you grabbed some other... How do you know that's not the white one, then?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Because the one that I used was not entirely... It was black, and then the handle was pink.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So you grabbed her other pink and black gun.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And then you go back outside.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And at that point, your father is still sitting in that chair.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
His foot on her head.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is he still kicking her?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What's he doing?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I mean, he's just kind of yelling at her, like, holding her to the ground with his foot. And he's saying, like, you know, he's going to kill her. It's the last time. Like, they're not working it out because, yeah.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is she on her side?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She's on her side. She's facing, so her stomach would be facing towards him.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what was she doing?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Being held to the ground.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was she struggling?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. She was trying to call for help and scream, and then he pinned her to the ground with his foot.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
yes no so you take your mom's other pink and black gun and from about five to ten feet away you shoot correct and you shoot him in the back of the head i think so yes do you ever remember saying that you shot him in the back of the head
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So previously, before today, you definitively said, I shot him in the back of the head, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But that's changed now.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I mean, no, not necessarily. Like, I shot him in the back of the head. I don't know where the bullet went, but that's where I was aiming. That's where I'm pretty sure it hit. Okay. You hit him? Yes, I think. Yes. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when you hit him, today you said he just sat there, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, he sat there and he's like, shaked.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. I want to make sure that was clear because you didn't say that on direct. He was almost like seizing, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. He didn't get up. He didn't move. He didn't try to run.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Exactly. Yeah.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So clearly you hit him.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. And then pretty much simultaneously to you shooting your dad in the back of the head, you're saying Jeremy just happened to show up.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Like I said, he came there every single morning before school. This was right before school. We already had our clothes on. We were in the middle of eating. Like we were about to leave for school. Like he was there. He came before school.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He would come to your house every day before school so that your mom could then take you to school?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I mean, he would come with us. They would hang out. His son went to school there.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Now, after he arrives... While your dad is shaking and, as you described, basically seizing in the chair, at this point, the amount of pressure he's putting on your mom's head has released. Is she able to get up?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, she crawls away. She doesn't stand up immediately.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. But you're saying Mr. Townsend came over and took your mom's other pink and black gun from you?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The same one I had, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And shot him again?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In the head.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And at that point, he turns around and threatens you and your brother that he's going to kill you as well.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not immediately after he has the gun in his hand, he helps my mom up, and he tells my mom to take us to school. We need to leave the house. And so, I mean, that's when he lets us know, like, no calling the cops. Like, I will do the same thing to you that I did to your father, basically. Saying he will hurt us, he will come after us, he will kill us if we say anything.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You see any alter, without talking about the facts of any events, did you see any altercations between Michael and your mother?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That shot him in the head.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, first.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And... So your mom actually went ahead and took you to school after this?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Dropped you off like nothing was wrong?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I mean, I asked to go to school. We were in the car, and she asked if we wanted to go to school, if we were comfortable, and I said yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And you said that you didn't talk to anybody at the school about anything, or you didn't react at all at the school about anything, because as you said, this was normal.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I mean, I said that I was in shock, but I did not mention this to anybody as I was just threatened not to mention it to anybody. No, it wasn't normal to see somebody die, but having these type of experiences where there's a lot of violence in the house, there's a lot of, like, I mean, trauma and fear, that was normal to experience that and then go to school afterwards.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But what she said on direct was you were able to go to school and function just fine. Yes. This was normal.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No one had ever been taken to the hospital before in any sort of incident between you and your mom, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No one had ever been seriously injured in any incidents before where they required medical attention, correct? Correct. And certainly nobody ever died, correct? Now, today you said when you returned from school, Jeremy Townsend was still at your residence.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He was. He was fixing the front door.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And do you remember previously during your deposition saying that after this happened and you went to school, you never saw Jay back at the house again? Do you remember saying that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I did, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, after that day, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What I'm saying is after you went to school, you never saw Jeremy back at the house again. Today you're saying when you got back from school, he was there.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Were they frequent?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, he was. He was there.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What I'm asking is do you remember saying something?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I do remember saying that.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. You described Jeremy as coming over and spending the night at the house, not every day, but quite a few days out of the week. That was normal, correct? Correct. When you got back from school that day, you did not notice any changes to the property, correct? Correct. You did have a huge hole in the backyard, as you described, which was going to be a duck pond, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, yeah. They were pretty frequent.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Had that been filled in?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know. No. No, it wasn't.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And that was the area that was eventually turned into the cement slab, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is that a yes? Yes. Sorry. That's okay. Since you sat there, shot your father in the back of the head, and were threatened by Mr. Townsend with your life, you have only once been taken to any sort of counselor or any sort of therapy, correct? That is correct. And that was actually sometime this year, close in time to your death.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Were they physical?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Actually, no, that's not correct. I think I went when I was little. Me and my brother went. I think it was at a church. I'm not entirely sure if it's classified as counseling or therapy, but... It was pretty much.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So speaking about household events, you had a slogan that there was an atmosphere that was tense, I believe?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Let me ask this. Did your mom ever take you to see a counselor to deal with any of the trauma that you, first of all, witnessed right in front of you, but also participated in by shooting your father?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I mean, yes, I did go to counseling. When? I think it was probably in this past year, maybe a little bit longer ago. But I, yeah.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that was one time?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And that was this year?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know if it was this year. I think it was the year before. Okay. Yeah.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you shot your dad, that was back in... an unknown year sometime between April and August, correct? Yes. And there was probably at least five years, if not more, because this case has been pending for four years, between any counseling that your mom brought you to, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, correct. And the counseling that I went to, it was literally like only one time. Like it was literally only for an evaluation, like nothing more. Yeah.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. We previously spoke about the different times you've talked about this event, either with law enforcement, the Child Advocacy Center, or during the deposition that I asked you questions. I'm going to ask you some things about how your stories changed over that period of time, okay? When your mom was arrested, you spoke with Detective Tammy Dale at your home, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. I've shown you a car closet exhibit.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And at that time, you said the last time you saw your dad, he worked at an airport, correct? Correct.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I think so. Maybe, yeah.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you said, and this was in 2020, the last time you saw him was a few years ago?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah. Okay. But 2020 was also four years ago, which was a lot closer to the last time I had seen him. Right.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So your memory would be better then.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And at that time, she asked you, do you know what happened to him? And you said, I have no clue. Correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. You also said, I don't know. He just left. Correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you see your mom in that same or similar condition on multiple occasions?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And the detective asked you if you ever asked your mom where he was. Do you remember that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And your mom told you she doesn't know because he doesn't talk to us. Correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You also went to the Child Advocacy Center to be interviewed that same year. That would have been December of 2020, correct? Correct. And during that time when you were interviewed, you stated the last time you remembered seeing him was when he was arrested in 2014, correct? Correct. And asked if he came back to the house after that, you said, I don't know, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And those pictures that you looked at, when were they taken?
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The ones that Jeff showed me? Mr. Wig showed me? Yeah.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You refer to him by his first name?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I do sometimes, yeah. It's not on purpose. It's not to be disrespectful or anything.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Clearly talk to him a few times.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I talked to him a few years ago, and I didn't tell him the full story. It was kind of just me saying a little bit about my side, and that's when I got my attorney, Ms. Kelley.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm sorry, I sidetracked you there. Do you remember when those photos that he showed you were?
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I don't remember necessarily when they were, like the time period or anything.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Are those true and accurate depictions how you frequently observed your mom without speaking about the events themselves? Yes. Did those images and mental impressions in your mind cause you to feel the need to take your mother's side at any time?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you see how they happened?
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I believe those ones, I don't know exactly what event that one was from. Okay. Because, like I said, there was a lot of events like that. And they all, not all, but most of them ended in kind of the same physically harm. You know what I mean? So I don't know which one that one belonged to.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And we're talking about physical harm. We're talking about bruises on the arm, correct?
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Bruising, blood, yeah.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. But the blood that you said you saw in the pictures was your dad's blood? i think so i don't know okay when at the cac interview when they asked you uh you had already said that the last time you remembered seeing him when he was arrested in 2014 and then asked if he ever came back to the house after that you said i don't know correct correct and then specifically you were asked
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So you did not see anything that happened that would have made you have an idea of what happened to him, and you said no, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
One moment. Nothing further, Josh.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. Thank you, sir. Mr. Wiggs? Just briefly, Josh. Yes, sir.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How old are you, Isabel?
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Isabel, there's been a discussion about the guns and multiple guns at the house.
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Correct, yeah.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Tell us about the atmosphere and the amount of guns that you all had in the household.
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Um, so we talked about my mom's guns.
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Go slow, but the jury can understand you, okay?
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um we also had in the living room we had this really big mirror like huge and it was on the wall it was like latched onto the wall by like these so like it could like flip up like this and so behind it was i want to say like a hole but it wasn't really a hole it was kind of like this really deep like divot in the wall and there was like a rack then he stored his guns there so you could like the wall and then the mirror lifted up and there was like guns on the wall
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Okay. So there were numerous guns within the residence. Is that fair to say?
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The question is, as the juries may wonder, how did you learn to fire a handgun?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My dad, he was obviously very interested in guns. So he did hunting a lot. We had five acres of land, so we had a lot of space to shoot the guns. And so he always taught us like gun safety or whatever and would take us outside to shoot the guns.
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Was that a routine thing?
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Yeah, we did it quite often.
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Okay. So did you have any trouble or difficulty in pulling the hammer on the gun?
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I mean, it was kind of difficult. I had to use, like, two hands.
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Pardon me?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was kind of difficult. I had to use, like, two hands to pull the trigger back.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mr. Wiggs, at this time, does your client wish to testify? Yes, she does, John. Okay. Is there anything further before we bring the jurors in?
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Yes, Your Honor. The testimony of Fish Shaver, as it relates to any sort of other acts by her deceased husband, needs to be limited to things that Isabel had knowledge about and was aware of. The only thing that matters as it relates to the prior acts go to what was reasonable for the person acting in defense of others at that time.
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Yes, I mean, look at her.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So the defendant is unable to come up and just testify about all sorts of other things Mr. Shaver may have done to her over the course of their relationship due to the fact that if Isabel Shaver did not observe it, and we've heard what her testimony is at this point, it's not relevant to the state of mind of the person acting in defense of others.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So the state would move in limine to make sure that any sort of testimony of any acts by Michael Shaver upon Lori Shaver be confined to the things that have already been testified to about which
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Did it cause you, Isabel, to step up in the past on more than one occasion and side with your mother?
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The person who shot had knowledge of about, which at this point is pretty much limited to the 2014 incident and general discussions of just fighting and there's been very limited discussions of physical abuse. There have been allegations referred to in other documents of being locked in closets and sexual battery and things of that nature and as
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I'm 15. I turned 16 this Sunday.
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There's no testimony from the person who shot as to knowledge about any of those things and why they acted in defense of others. Any testimony about that would be irrelevant.
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Judge, this child just testified that she saw a repeat of acts that impacted her mentally. Now, I know the court has directed we not go into details on events, but I think it's appropriate to talk about circumstances of events that may have impacted the child without still going into details. The child testified it was a monthly issue all the time, stress, batteries, events like that.
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I think that's appropriate to touch on but not go into specific details. And that, I think, is your order.
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I'll allow it to that extent. Yes.
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And I would just say, you know, I don't oppose counsel interjecting or even the court interjecting if you feel it's getting a little outside of where you want it to be.
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Yes, it did.
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All right. Anything further?
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All right. Let's call the jury. All of the members of the jury have returned after a comfort break. Please proceed.
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In the pictures that you looked at, who committed those injuries to your mother?
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May I please the court?
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The defense would call Lori Shaver. Ms. Filmer, would you state your name for the record, please?
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My father.
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Lori Filmer, previously known as Lori Shaver.
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Big day in your life, isn't it? Big week. Been several years, hasn't it, Ms. Filmer? Tell me when you're ready, okay? Would you tell the jury who you are and how you met Michael Shaver?
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Josh, we ask that this exhibit is held without testimony as to the events...
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I met Michael when we started dating in seventh grade. We lived in a very small town in Lawrence, New York. Our school was K through 12, 500 kids. Our graduating class was like 14, 18 kids. We went to kindergarten together. I met Michael in tech class when they actually did tech class in seventh grade.
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It's your desire to testify in this matter, correct?
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We reached a period of time where y'all... elected to get married correct yes do you remember when that was may of 2016. okay and at some point in time you all ended up migrating to the state of florida yes okay and do you remember approximately when that was
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I graduated in 2001. That's college. So Mike was a dropout. He got his GED. He wanted to become a pilot. Didn't have much funding for that. My parents paid for it. I went to school for business administration and focus in health service administration. So I was very socially awkward and Wasn't a popular kid in school. My brother, one of my oldest brothers, I'm the youngest of five.
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How's the exhibit identified? What letter marking? He is in Bravo. Okay. Any objection from the state?
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One of my brothers got meningitis at seven weeks. And he was severely mentally retarded. He got picked on a lot. So growing up in a small town that was not acceptable way back then, and I spent all my time in the handicapped classroom. And that was not popular. I was an outcast. He used to get beat up on the bus, and I would stick up for him. I met Mike and had gone to school with him.
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But in seventh grade, in tech class, we became friends. He was an awkward kid as well because he was kind of like a troublemaker at that time. And I didn't have anybody. He didn't have anybody. We kind of clung together at that point.
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Okay, Ms. Bell, I'm showing you what's marked as offensive to the scene for identification purposes. Would you tell the jurors what you're looking at?
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Okay. So there's some period of time, went by, y'all got married, ended up down here, correct?
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Mike wanted to be a pilot, couldn't do that, or what?
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No, he did. Yep.
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He actually did.
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Okay. Did he fly commercial, or was it a hobby?
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No. My parents helped him get his personal private pilot's license. He wanted to go on and get his professional pilot license. My parents told him that if he was going to date me, he was going to get his GED and they would help him. He looked to his family to get assistance with that. He was denied. So it took some time. It took a lot of time. But eventually he made his way.
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He started flying for Pan Am Flight Academy. which is the lower division of U.S. Airways out of New York City.
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He was doing good.
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So eventually you end up down here, and Mike transgresses into another occupation. How did that happen?
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Well, we first moved, so I worked for MetLife Disability. I worked for them for 15 years, corporate. I worked for them in office. For four years, when Mike finally succeeded in everything, we were able to move. We moved to Florida, Fort Pierce, Florida, when I was seven weeks pregnant with Isabel. We were there for about a year. We moved back to New York. We got hit with our first hurricane ever.
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It was kind of like a scary thing. We were top tier of an apartment building. A tree came in. We didn't know what to do. We packed up our stuff. We were back in New York three days later. Then after that, we were there for about a year. I was still working for MetLife. But at that time, work from home was kind of becoming popular. And I was able to, again, move my work to Florida.
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I see my father with a torn shirt and blood.
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And we moved to Orlando right next to the airport. And I was working from home, had Isabel. And he was commuting from Orlando to New York City on a weekly basis. He was gone for weeks at a time.
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Stick up, please.
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Okay. What happened next in y'all's life?
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There was a lot. We just had each other. I don't know how else to explain it. We just had each other. I was a single mom in a new place with no family, no friends. He was a pilot. He was gone all the time. There was no support from either family.
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I'm sorry. I see my father, and he has a torn shirt and blood.
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Now, we heard from family in this case of Mike's come in and they said, well, we haven't heard from him for this period of time or that period of time. Was he close with his family at all?
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Did you ever visit them?
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Stacy? Yes.
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Did any of them ever visit your residence?
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Never. They didn't even come to the wedding. But when we were growing up through high school, we would go to Stacy's all the time. Christmas, Thanksgiving, birthdays. I knew Desiree. I knew Danny. And you know that. Every time we would go over there and meet, you and Mike used to always get together and talk about how your dad evaded the whole family.
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Whose blood's that?
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I mean, I'm assuming his. Says?
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What was the next step in y'all's marriage?
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So from there, there was a lot of issues. A lot of issues. He was away, gone for over a week. I packed up Isabel. And we had flight privileges. We could fly for free. I packed her up. And when he was gone, took her to New York, where my family was. thinking I could get away, get support, file for a divorce. Everything was good. Rented a house. Everything was good.
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I was back working at MetLife in the office. My sister works there. She's actually the operations manager now. She's a nurse. She started her way down low. She was actually the one that got me the job, told me that they were doing this mass hiring. And now she's the operations manager of MetLife in Oriskany. So I packed Isabella up. She was just a little over a year old. We went there.
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Now, the photos you looked at in Chesapeake, briefly, is this the individual that would do that and say, do you understand what I'm saying? Would move State Defense Exhibit C into evidence at this time, Judge? Yeah. Isabel, how frequently would those events occur without speaking the details of the events?
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And... Where was Spike?
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Well, he was off on a business trip. But we had... Back then, you used to have flying privileges. You could just... You were just on standby. As long as you could just get on the plane... You could fly anywhere you wanted to for free back then. So that's what I did. I got away. My sister was helping me. We got a house. We rented a house. Everything was perfect.
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Like, all right, this is going to work. I was seeking attorney in New York, filing for divorce. My mom, I... I joined a gym, and I went to a spinning class one night. I came home that night. My mom was watching Isabel. It was a baby. I went into the shower. When I came out, my mom was not there. I was greeted by a punch in the face.
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Excuse me. Okay. Let's limit it without physical description.
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I was greeted by Michael three weeks later.
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All right.
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I was out of work for three weeks. And we were all back in Florida three weeks after that. And I was, again, working from home without my family, without any support. And we were living in Davenport, Florida at that time, Champions Gate area.
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Let's talk, let's transgress into a family environment. Did it ever develop Lori into an atmosphere of, where there was tension, so to speak.
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There was always tension.
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Let's talk about the nature of the tension.
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One moment, please. Yes, sir. I don't want to see pictures.
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I'm showing you a composite of your wishes. I want you to look through this. All right, that's number two. I have the memories.
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I don't need to look at pictures.
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Without articulating the specific facts of those events, did you suffer any injuries at the hands of Michael Shaver?
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Yes. Who's in that photo? Whose blood is on that shirt, Michael Shaver? Michael's.
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Was that a consequence of an altercation between you and Michael?
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When these incidents occurred, would these occur around the Ham family and the occupants of that family?
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Sometimes.
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Pardon me?
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Sometimes. Most of the time. I mean, he didn't hide it.
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Let's talk about your relationship with Isabel. What was your relationship like with Isabel?
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Like when she was younger or now?
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Well, when y'all were younger, did Isabel ever develop a feeling or a need to protect you?
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Objection, Your Honor. Delighted.
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Did she demonstrate? Did she demonstrate?
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Isabel grew up really fast. She had to take care of Aiden when I was not able to.
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As a consequence of these events?
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Yes. And even to this day, she still... I am not the person to... If you come at me with something, I don't have a comeback. I will shut down. And I will just retreat. She's not that person. She will get right in front of me. Whether we're at the gas station or grocery shopping. There used to be a time period where I could not even go into a grocery store by myself.
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It would happen pretty often. They'd at least argue and fight really bad, pretty much on the daily. But it would escalate to those points a few times a month. It wasn't a rare occurrence. It happened often.
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Were there events wherein you were not free to leave the residence?
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Would anybody control your freedom of movement?
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Yes. My, obviously I've gained weight over the years, but my eating was controlled. I had anorexia and bulimia. I probably the way this now, what I did with all four of my kids, but I literally reached for an Oreo one time and was thrown off couch.
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Now, at some point in time, Michael took a job at Disney, correct? Okay. Do you remember when that was?
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I don't remember the exact time when we had moved back from New York to Florida. That's kind of when the whole Disney thing came about because he didn't want to leave me alone. I mean, from my presumption, it was because he wanted to be around and, you know, make sure that nothing was going to happen. Or I wasn't going to leave.
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Was there any attempts to leave, Michael?
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Probably about eight.
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One moment.
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I'm showing you three documents. Do those pertain to Lori Schaefer and Al Tutman? Yes, sir. Do those documents refer to Michael Shaver? Yes. Do these documents pertain to any acts of violence pertaining to Michael Shaver?
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You're aware of the arrest of your mother, correct?
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Do these documents pertain to injunctions for protection filed on your behalf against Michael Shaver?
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Yes. And there was an additional one filed by the state.
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Were those filed on your behalf as a consequence of violence and a feeling of a need for protection?
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Those three?
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Yes. Was Michael, at points and times, directed to reside outside of the residence?
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Yes, he was.
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By the courts?
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Okay. For the need for your protection?
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And were those injunctions issued as a consequence of violence? We've heard a lot of witnesses that have taken the stand in this case, correct? We heard from Mr. Amituchio, correct? He represented, if I'm not correct, that he was Mike's best friend.
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And as a matter of those events, I may have asked this question before, did you feel a need to attempt to protect your mom in any fashion?
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He was not as an adult.
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Mr. Amituchio took the stand and testified to this jury that he was Michael's best friend. Was Mr. Abituccio at the house very often? No. Pardon me?
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No, he was not. Not after we all got married and had kids.
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Mr. Merritt took the stand as well, correct? Correct. And was it Mr. Merritt that declared he had gone to the truck show with y'all?
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Tractor show.
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Tractor show? Okay. Did Mr. Merritt spend time at the residence with y'all?
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Not very often. I probably seen him twice before that.
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Okay. Now, there was testimony about your mood or something out at the tractor show, correct? Were there any issues going on at the tractor show that the jury needs to know?
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Not prior. It was happening at the tractor show.
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What was happening?
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Isabel was not feeling well. She was getting sick to her stomach. She was getting dizzy. She was getting hot. She's not able to talk. Her body does not tolerate heat or cold. Like, she becomes very flushed and sick. And I wanted to leave because she was feeling sick. And we were walking a very long time. I mean, hours. And there was no stroller, nothing. I just wanted to leave for her.
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I did, yes.
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He did not want to leave. I guess the whole point was for us to go there to maybe get a mutual relationship with Frank and Rita. But... She was sick, and I was, as a mom, I just wanted to leave because she was sick, and he didn't want to leave. I don't know how else to explain it.
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Did you perceive your mother... as a victim through those events.
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Okay. There was testimony about contacts with you, and you represented that Michael, you believed he had left or gone to a certain location, correct?
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At what time period?
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There was a witness that testified that you had reported... That he had gone to Georgia or New York or somewhere.
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I had received a message from Stacy.
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Who's Stacy? His sister. Okay.
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She had contacted me saying that she hadn't heard from Michael. And I told her I did not either. And she said, well, his mom is sick. So... If you can, if you hear from him, or you can let, I said, if I hear from him or I will let one of his friends know that his mom is sick so that they can relay the message. Frank Merritt came by. I told him that his mom was sick.
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Those, that response that transpired at you, did it become a natural and automatic response? You talked about the feeling inside of yourself of the need to protect your mother. Did that become automatic inside?
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So if he's seen him, to let him know. Frank Merritt was not close with us. So I never told him that he went to Georgia. I said he went to go see his mom. Here is the misconception. His mom, Sharon Shaver, the one that was sick, lives in New York. Frank Merritt did not know the family well enough at that time.
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He automatically assumed, in my mind, that he went to Georgia to see his stepmom, Sharon Shaver.
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I never made the statement he went to Georgia. I said he possibly could have went to go see his sick mom.
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We also heard other witnesses testify, correct? There was testimony about a sale of guns, correct? Now, my understanding, y'all had a relatively large cache of guns around the house. Is that correct? Pardon me? Yes. Okay. Was Mike collecting guns?
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What was his... He had a hobby of building them.
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I see. Okay. So Mike would build guns, sell them out on the market somewhere?
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For his friends. He built them and would just keep them, collect them.
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Okay. And with regards to the guns, we heard Isabel testify... that Mike had dealt with the guns and been training the kids how to fire guns? Yeah.
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They knew gun safety.
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Okay. Did he practice this with them?
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Yes, he did.
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Did Isabelle know how to fire a gun?
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Everybody did. We had the five acres. There was targets. We used to go to the gun range as well, but we taught them how to, various guns, check to see if they were loaded, unloaded, how to fire. And he would have them walk around the house after they checked to see if they were unloaded or whatnot, walk around the house with them pointing down, teaching them not to point at anybody.
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Even with Nerf guns, they were not allowed to point them at people, things like that.
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Okay. There came a period of time because of these injunctions that were filed that Michael was out of the house, correct?
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And there came a period of time you started dating other people.
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Was it Mr. Bray? Who was it? Ballou. Pardon me? Ballou, wasn't it? Yeah. You dated Mr. Ballou. Was he married or single? Okay. Did y'all date long? Okay. Did he have any issues with Michael?
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Yes, it did. Growing up, I mean, Yeah, I've always stepped in for my mother. I was, I mean, I would, you know, do whatever I could do. I mean, I remember I had this stuffed animal, and her name was Lammy, and she was my favorite stuffed animal.
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Then at some point in time, you met Jeremy Townsend, correct? Tell us how you met Jeremy, where you met Jeremy.
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I met Jeremy at the school.
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At the school?
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Not at the park. Okay.
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He had an opal color truck. I had a white truck. There was two lanes coming out. And we were both there at the same time. This was the end of August. And he rolled down the passenger window and handed me a sticky note. And I grabbed it. And I said, I know what you're going through. I can help you. Call me. And he gave me his number.
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Why would he suggest that?
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I had marks on my face.
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I wasn't, I mean, yeah.
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So did you call Mr. Townsend?
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Now, Isabel, there's allegations raised on the ground that, so to speak, that you've been brought in here, kind of thrown under the bus. Has anybody pressured you to testify in this cause?
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Now, Mr. Townsend testified that this was kind of an informal relationship. He characterized it as one of friends with benefits, correct?
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Okay. Did Mr. Townsend lead you to believe that he was single?
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Okay. There's digital data that's been introduced. They have text, I believe. Does some of that contradict his statement here in court?
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Well, that's why I asked. Why did you lie to me?
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Pardon me?
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That's why I asked. Texts that were introduced today. Why did you lie to me?
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Why is that?
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Because I didn't. He was separated from his wife. And then I found out that he was now back together with her. So I said, why did you lie to me? Why all of a sudden are you wearing your wedding ring again?
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I see. Did Jeremy come by the house often?
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Every day.
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Every day?
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Every day.
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Morning, night, what times?
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He would come by in the mornings. Well, initially, we would meet at the school. He would drop his son off when our relationship first started, and I would have Isabella and Aiden, and we'd show up early, and we'd sit in the school car line, and he'd come back to the truck. where I had my kids and we'd all just converse in the morning while we sat there and waited until school started.
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Sometimes Vanessa would come out and get Trent out of his truck early and take him in because she was a teacher there. And then he would leave, go off to work. He worked in, he did landscaping. He had a partnership landscaping business. And I worked from home. So from there, probably in December, because prior to that, I did Beachbody from home. I was doing Beachbody sales from home.
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And he used to, you know, she would go to sleep on the couch, and he would drug her water, and I would tuck her in, and I would, like, give her my stuffed animal to protect her. And obviously it's not, it's a stuffed animal, it's not going to protect her, but it was just... Like the act and the principle of it.
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Social anxiety. I had never, ever, ever, ever been to a gym before. He was going to Gold's Gym, which I don't remember what Austin said it's called now. But anyways, it was the Gold's Gym where he was a member of. And I was like, okay, that's fine. But I don't know how to use anything. I'm not going to go in and do it because I only worked out from home through videos.
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So he goes, no, I know somebody there. It was a female because I wasn't comfortable with males. And he set me up with Rebecca Filmer, a personal trainer. That's how I met Austin and Becca. Becca and I became really close. We would go out dancing on Fridays. My social life just kind of expanded from there. I started to see that there was a life outside of my home.
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I mean, little as it was, but it was still nice.
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Now, did you ever confide in Jay about your situation with Mike? No.
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Yes. So that all happened at the beginning. Obviously, he had seen that I had marks on my face. So I called him and we did meet at the park after that to talk. And that's, we met a few times. And it was just talking, friendship. And it was nice to have somebody to talk to, but he told me about his history in the military.
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He also told me that he was a bodyguard for some professional boxer, and I cannot remember the name. He would travel and be his bodyguard whenever he was on tour. He told me that he was in special op. He served on the Bush administration in Washington, D.C., as security. Tons of stuff. Sniper, told me everything.
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Okay. We saw those contradictions with his testimony, correct? Mm-hmm. Did Mr. Townsend make any representations to you that he would protect you from Michael?
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Yes, from the very beginning.
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Tell me if I ever needed anything, that I could contact him. And it was, he was always on top of it. If Becca and I went out dancing in the evening, he would come over. He would see me before we went out. And while we were out, he would call. And we would have to send him a picture to show him that we were there where we were.
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And when I left, I would have to let him know that I was on my way home. And then also let him know that I had gotten home. He knew everything. He had everything. He kept track of me every step of the way.
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Was there a period of time when your father was removed from the residence?
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Let's talk about the event that's landed you here. Shift gear over there, okay? Michael was out of the house at that time?
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Is it my understanding he'd been living at the airport?
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Yes. So the battery had happened in 2004. The state imposed an injunction. DCF was involved. Mike went through counseling, everything like that. Mike was all that I knew. And during that time period, we both dated other people. I mean, you all heard that. Once everything was up, I guess you could say, we started talking again.
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But DCF had been in the house, and they said that as long as he was not in the picture, everything was okay.
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Yes, there was.
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But if he came back... They were going to take action.
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Yeah. So they had offered... To move me and the two kids, change our names, change our socials. We had already moved so much. We finally were in a good school. The kids had good friends. And there was a point where Isabel had asked, you know, is this where we're going to live now? And I said, yep, we're never moving again. This is where we're staying. I went to a great school, great friends.
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Father removed from the residence on a pick?
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As a consequence of these events?
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So when DCF came in and offered that, I'm like, nope, I'm strong now. I'm going to go to counseling. I went to Celebrate Recovery for codependency. I was going to livestream counseling. I thought I had it. So I'm like, nope, I'm going to stand my ground.
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And so I didn't leave. Dated. Obviously, those relationships sucked, failed. And I went back. I left Michael.
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And during the period or the absence of your father, did your mother start dating anybody?
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Did it work out?
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Nope. We tried. He was back in the house maybe two weeks. Well, in September of 2014, he was back in the house two weeks. And then I should have learned my lesson then, but I didn't. And then in 2015, when we had gotten back together, Wilma Nichols, our neighbor, very nosy lady, Mike would go to work. We would pick him up at L.J. Yates' house, who has not testified. L.J. Yates lived on 33.
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He also worked at Disney. Mike would drive home. From Disney to his house. And we would pick him up there and bring him back to the house. And he would duck so nobody would see him. And then he would sleep there all day. He built a privacy wall on our back patio so Wilma couldn't see. And she had to put a gate so that she could just come over whenever she wanted.
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So we put a lock on there so she couldn't do that. And then he worked overnights. So about 7 o'clock we would take him back. To LJ's house, and then he would go from there to work, and we continued that for a long time.
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After he had been removed for a while, she did start dating Jeremy.
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Okay. So this in the house, out of the house, that continued on and off, correct?
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Okay. So there did come a point in time. When you were later with Jeremy, correct? So that's later in time, correct, to those events?
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Yeah. It was a couple months later. Like I said, school had just started. I had went to school without dropping the kids off, whatever. I had marks on my face. Jeremy noticed. He sent me a message. I started talking to him. Obviously talking to him, him reassuring me. He was saying all the right things. I kind of felt for it. I'm not denying that. I did. It was nice, right?
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Because now I'm back into... Solid ground. Yeah. And it wasn't working, and I'm like, I'm right back into it. So, my birthday, Jeremy and I had talked about plans to go out shopping, going to the movies, going to hurricanes. You know, just hanging out for the day while the kids were in school. Mike was still in the house at that time.
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What was Jeremy's last name?
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And I had told him that I had just wanted to go out for the day, go shopping, get my nails done, whatever. And he absolutely refused. Refused. So I threw a fit as I was walking away from him. Well, he had given me my birthday presents as I was walking away.
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Townsman? I don't think I know his last name. It's something like that.
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He threw a... Let's not talk about specific events, okay? Okay. Okay. But there was an altercation arising out of that confrontation, correct? Okay. And so eventually, I take it, Michael's out of the house at a period of time. Okay.
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So I kicked him out. I think it was November 10th.
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Okay. We heard testimony from one witness that you were waving a gun at Michael, threatened him. Some witness, he said he got in between you.
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That was Robert Ricardo.
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Robert Ricardo. Did that ever happen?
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Okay. How often would Jeremy come to the residence?
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No, it did not.
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Why was Robert Ricardo at the residence?
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We were all hanging out. Barbecue, whatever. I honestly don't remember. We were all on the back porch. There was drinking involved. Mike became irate. I went into the bedroom. He tried coming over me at the dresser. Robert stood in between. He separated him. Mike left the property. We couldn't get a hold of him. We called 911 in fear of Michael doing something to himself.
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There was a 911 call for that. They did make contact with him, and that was that. But no, there was no gun involved on that evening.
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Okay. The gun that's been introduced in the evidence, was this gun used in the commission of this case?
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No, it was not.
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What happened to that gun?
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I've never seen it again.
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Who would have taken it?
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Jeremy was the last one that had it.
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Let's transgress into this event that led to these charges. Lori, okay? Do you remember the event? You're in the house, correct?
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He was over all the time. I mean, he came over for holidays. He was there for my brother's birthday. His son went to the same school as me and my brother, so he would meet up at our house every day before we'd go to school. And he was at the school for all the plays, the events, all that type of stuff. He was over all the time.
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I was in the house initially. Michael did not enter the house.
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Okay. Was it morning, noon? Take us through it.
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Okay. And tell the jurors how this transpired.
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I got up the whole, got my coffee, and then that's when I noticed he was sitting out on the back patio. We had two tables. There was like one long line, and then there was a smaller round table with two chairs. I seen him sitting there. So I got the kids. I don't remember if it was Pop-Tarts, breakfast bars, whatever. They're Ovaltine. They always had Ovaltine. They had tables in their bedrooms.
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I went in and got them their clothes, gave them their breakfast, turned on the TV, and I just said, you know, get your breakfast, get ready for school, which they did. Just like every other morning, I'm going to go out and take care of the animals. We had over 400 birds. We had pigs. I rescued a horse. There was lots of animals on the property.
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So that was not a normal for me to go outside while they were inside getting ready. So I went out there, but I knew he was sitting out there. I could see him through the kitchen window out in the back patio. So I went out there. And we started talking and it escalated. I went to walk back in because this wasn't going anywhere and he was not leaving. And I opened the sliding glass door to go in.
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And when I did that, he took my phone and slammed it up against the sliding glass door. There was an imprint of my phone on that sliding glass door. He grabbed my arm, pulled me down into his lap. And the furthest chair that was... I don't have a picture in front of me, but the sliding glass door, there was like a post. And there was a... We had like a bistro table sitting there in front.
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And on this further side, I guess, in front of the sliding glass door, there was a chair. So he had pulled me down in his lap. He was holding on to me. And at that point... I was just trying to convince him, like, okay, okay, okay. We'll work it out.
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What's he saying to you during that, Maury?
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He's just, he's, I was talking at that point. I was scared. That's what I'm saying. Okay, okay, okay. We can work it out because that's what I did every single time because I was scared. And he told me not this time.
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Was he upset about anything in particular that you're aware of?
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Yes, he found out I had gotten pregnant.
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Okay. So is he mentioning that in his discussion or what?
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Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, not at that time. It was previously before he pulled me into his lab. But, I mean, he knew.
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Would he come in the morning?
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So I was like, okay, okay, okay, we'll work it out. Because at that point, I had already had the abortion.
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So are you facing the house or facing away from the house? Tell us your direction.
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I'm facing, looking out the back. I'm on the back porch, but I'm not looking into the house.
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Yeah, morning, night.
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Okay. Now, he spins you around, and you're in the chair, I take it?
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I'm in his lap. He's holding me there.
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Did he ever spend the night there?
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And then he pushed me to the ground.
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Okay. As he pushes you to the ground, does he do anything? No.
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After he pushed me to the ground, he was kicking me in the stomach.
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Okay. Presuming you were pregnant or something.
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Yeah, and I had already told him I had the abortion, and I was screaming at that point.
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Okay. Is he making any threats to do any harm to you, any serious bodily harm?
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Yeah, I mean, he said not this time. He said I was not getting away.
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Not this time. I mean, we had been through so many events, but that's not the first time. I mean, he had pulled a gun out. He had Publix in Claremont. This was not the first time.
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Would y'all go to places with Mr. Townsend or Jeremy?
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Okay, let's not talk about prior events. Okay? Yeah, I'm sorry. So you're on the ground, and he's kicking you.
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In the stomach.
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Okay. Is he kicking you hard?
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Yes. Okay.
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Is he making any... Okay. Is he making any statements of any intent to kill you or anything of that nature?
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Okay. Is he speaking in such a level that the children could hear this?
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Oh, yeah. We both were.
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I was screaming. Okay.
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Okay. As he's doing this, and he's not relenting on it, did he have his foot anywhere?
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Yes, we would.
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Well, that went on for a few minutes, and then he put his foot on my face.
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Was he there for Christmas?
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Smashing it into the patio, porch, whatever you want to call it.
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As he has his foot on your face, sit on the front of your face, the side of your face.
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I was facing him. Now I'm facing, I'm curled up facing the house. And he, it was just like this.
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Not Christmas Day, but Christmas Eve.
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Is he continue to yell? Is he yelling at you?
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Not at that point. No, no. We were sitting there and I could not yell anymore. He's just sitting in the chair as he's smashing my face into the porch.
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What's the next thing you recall?
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The next thing I see is, I can't even say I seen her. I more or less heard it. And then I think I seen her.
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Was he there for any other holidays or special events?
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When you say her, who are you referring to?
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Isabel. What's Isabel do?
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Now, when Isabel fires this gunshot, do you see where it lodged into Michael or what?
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He was there for my brother's birthday. I don't really remember any other holidays, but I know he was there for my brother's birthday and Christmas.
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I could not.
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Where are you after Isabel fires the gun?
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Still on the ground.
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And the next thing you recall?
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The next thing I recall is seeing Jay, Jeremy, and hearing the gunshot essentially at the same time.
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Is there much time that goes by between Isabel shooting the gun and Jay taking out our journey?
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No. It felt like forever. I remember looking at her.
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Had you gotten off the ground?
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No. No, I had not. Michael was still sitting in that chair.
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After Jay comes, you hear Jay discharge the firearm. And after Jay discharges the firearm... What do you hear next or observe next?
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Well, at that point, I started crawling away, but Michael fell forward out of the chair.
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Fell forward on the chair?
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Out of the chair.
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Okay. Was that after Jeremy shot or after Isabel shot?
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After Jeremy makes that shot into Michael, what happens after that?
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Do you remember going shopping or out on the town with Mr. Townsend?
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I got up. We went into the house. We went into Isabel's room.
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Who has the gun at that point?
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I don't recall that he had the gun. I don't know. He was the last one with the gun.
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Okay. Did you see Isabel carrying it after that?
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No, no. But it wasn't carried into her room where we were having a conversation.
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Now, Jeremy makes that shot. You get up. You go into the house. Are any statements made by Jeremy there?
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Yes. So he tells me to take the kids, get them out of the house, and he would take care of it. He insinuated that if we said anything, that she would be taken away. And he said that he was not going to take the blame for this.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, we used to go to the Chick-fil-A a lot, one of the ones with the playgrounds. And we'd go with his son and then me and my brother. We did that a lot.
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So what did you do?
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I took the kids. I left. That's what I always did. I took the kids and I left.
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Where did you take them?
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I took them to school. I wanted to get back home. I did not know what was going to happen after that, but I wanted to get the kids out. And the only place I had to take them was school. It wasn't that far away.
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So you take the kids to school, come back to the house. Is Michael there?
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Is Jay there?
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No. No. No. And we had a conversation with Aiden. I remember that. He had obviously heard commotion. He didn't know what happened. He didn't see it. He was in his room, which was at the further end of the house. And I had just told him, your dad's gone away for a long, long time and insinuated that he was going to jail.
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Now, did you see any fresh dug holes on the property as you walked about it or moved about it beyond that point?
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When Jeremy said, I'll take care of this, did you have any reason to believe that that body was on your property?
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Absolutely not, no.
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No, never. There's no way he could have. I wasn't gone that long where he could have. Finding out the dimension? No. Mm-mm. He came back. It was probably about 2 in the afternoon.
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Do you know if Mr. Townsend or Jeremy was married?
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Now, did you know whether or not his family had property elsewhere?
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Did you make any assumptions that it may have been taken somewhere else?
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And I had questioned him about that. They had 30 acres. He said 5. He had told me 30 acres. I don't know what's true or what's not anymore. But I was told they had 30 acres. I asked him that.
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After that event, What happened to your relationship with Jeremy?
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It ended. I had found out. I mean, I became pregnant. We were talking about getting engaged. We went and looked at houses. And then I find out that he's now trying to work it out with his wife. And then that happened. And I was so overwhelmed at that point. I ended it.
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I don't think so.
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Isabel, I'm sorry, but I have to do this. Let's talk about Michael. Your father. Do you know anything about the death of your father?
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The relationship ends between the two of y'all. You go on with your life. At some point in time, you meet Travis. Yes. When did Travis come into your life?
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At the end of May.
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Pardon me?
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He came by the house at the end of May. My sister was there. He came by. Becca, Austin were there. We had a get-together, and he was there.
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Did you have any discussion with Travis and relay that, you know, Michael was dead or any discussion about that?
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No. I never mentioned it to anybody.
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There later came a point in time when this patio was built, correct? The fire pit?
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Tell us, we've heard circumstances about that. How did that end up and why did that end up being placed at that location?
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It was a big open area in the backyard. When Jeremy and I were together, it was an idea that we would lay concrete down. He was supposed to help me with it. That's why the concrete was bought in January of 2016, I think it was. We sat down, we talked about the dimensions of it, and he was explaining to me how to calculate how much concrete you would need and whatnot. I went out and bought it.
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And then bought it, unloaded it into the shed. And it sat there until September, later that year.
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And then you had broken up with Jeremy, correct? And then later you take up with Travis. Correct. Correct. And eventually this fire pit gets dug, correct? Or had been dug, prepped for a duck pond, correct?
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They didn't dig anymore. Yeah.
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Do you know anything about how your father died?
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It had been dug out, my understanding, for a duck pond, correct?
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Yeah, previously. That was even previous to Jeremy.
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Yeah. And y'all abandoned that attempt or effort. So you move on.
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Now, there was, Ms. Johnson was appointed as an attorney ad litem to represent you.
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I mean, it was just like, it was just an outline. We didn't even dig deep into it.
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So Travis comes along, some time passes, and y'all elect to put the patio there.
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Could you tell the jury? So, it was a school day, and, I'm sorry, and he... First, let's relax, go slow, make sure the jury understands the events, okay? Okay.
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Yeah, that was the original plan.
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You've broken up with, Travis.
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Jeremy. Excuse me. I apologize. You've broken up with Jeremy. Now, Wilma next door testified that they detected an odor about your property. Was there any odor floating about on your property?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No. I mean, we had rescued one pig. We got another, a wild male and female. They had babies. And Robert Seha and his wife, they had horses. They also had dogs. They were renting the back property to keep some of their horses. And they had dogs. And... There was a few occasion where the dogs had come up and with the little pigs, it's not a pretty sight.
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So I don't know if that's what she was smelling. And with the birds, like I said, with 400 birds, we used to slaughter them. I used to cut the chicken meat. We had ducks, guinea fowl, quail. We had tons. I had a license to sell. We sold to a restaurant in Winter Garden. There was an obvious odor. Yes.
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So when y'all prepped this area and you put the patio down, did you and Travis put your initials in the concrete?
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Would you have done that if you knew there was a body underneath there? Would you have posted photographs on the Internet or on social media?
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Absolutely not.
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If you had knowledge that there's a body underneath there?
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Absolutely not. If I knew, everything would have changed, everything that occurred. The only reason why we laid the patio when we did was because we were trying to have this huge birthday party for Isabel. Robert Seha and his wife, they had the horses. And we invited essentially everybody from Pine Ridge to the house. And they were going to have the horses going through the backyard.
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And the kids could do hand printing on them. So we did that. So we were just trying to level everything out, make it look nice, have a gathering place. That's all that it was. That's why it wasn't placed until right before her birthday in September.
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place for people to stand and sit on.
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Yeah, just to level the ground out. I mean, it was sitting in the shed, had been sitting there since the beginning of the year. We just decided that was the right time to do it.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, there's been talk about and documents introduced regarding this social media, Facebook, etc. Do you know who posted some of those images, any of those images?
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There's images from your account, Michael's account, other accounts. Did Jay have access to social media at your house?
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Yes. Oh, a lot of people did. Everybody had access to the Wi-Fi password. It was America One. Scotty Matuccio, Jay, Frank, Wilma, everybody. You could not be at that house without being connected to Wi-Fi if you wanted to have connection to anything. We kept the password straight. It was America One. Everybody knew it. I posted those things on my Facebook.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. It was a school morning. Me and my brother were getting ready for school. He hadn't been at the house for a while. He was kicked out and moved. And me and my brother were in separate rooms where we hadn't pretty much been ready for school. I was... I knew my breakfast and I was watching TV. We had these like little plastic tables in our rooms and I was watching TV and I heard arguing.
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I did not post those things to Michael's Facebook.
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There's timeframes where the states made issue of this account being open and that account being open. Do you have any explanation for that?
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I don't. I mean, I was on Facebook every single day. My job required me to investigate people, so I was always on the Internet, social media, investigating people.
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We've heard testimony as well that those accounts can be accessed remotely, off-site, and contain the same IP address, correct? Yes. That somebody can be in the house, sharing the same router, sharing the same IP address, correct? Yes. We've seen, and the state has introduced into evidence at this stage, a tarp that was in this pit. Did y'all have ownership of a blue tarp?
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Not at that point. We had a tarp when we got a pool. I know Travis bought a tarp to put under the pool.
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Later when you were with Travis?
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Did you have one at the time of the demise of Michael Shaver?
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Not to my knowledge.
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Did you have the strap wrenches that were introduced or the straps themselves on your property?
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No, not to my knowledge. When I went and got the concrete and stuff, I did not do anything with strap wrenches or anything like that.
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The laminate flooring, the laminate flooring that was testified to, did you have the same or similar laminate flooring on your property?
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No, no. The flooring, the remodeling that was done was done before we even moved in. When we bought that house, we got it at a really good price. It was kind of, it wasn't in foreclosure, but the inside essentially looks like it was in foreclosure. There was, the floors and the rooms were destroyed from previous dogs. And I'm OCD and very clean. And we hired somebody to come in and clean it.
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And Michael went in and changed all the flooring in that house before I would allow us to even move in and bring the kids in there because it was disgusting.
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Was Austin Fillmore, or Austin, was he at the house when that pit was poured, the patio?
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He testified he was.
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He was not. He was not there. Travis and I did that ourselves. And originally, Travis thought he could do it by himself, and then he went and rented the mixer. We didn't realize that, I mean, it was a big area. He had never done that before. I don't know. I guess he thought it was going to be easier just mixing up some bags, but that's why he ended up going and running the mixer.
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We saw the photographs of the distance between the residence and the gravesite. Did you back at that period of time, and we see your photos, were you that physical size back in that time period?
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Did you have the physical capability even of moving that body?
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160 pound man? No. No. When I was at the gym working out, I could probably do 30 pounds. Prior to getting a personal trainer, I was working out from home with just hand weights. Did I have an endurance? Yes. I ran marathons.
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Initially I thought it was a TV and then I was like, no, that's not the TV. So my room, it had, it was my room and then it had a bathroom and then a spare room. And so they all connected to each other, like, through the bathroom. It was almost like a little, like, pathway. And so I heard, you know, the fighting and the yelling, and it escalated. So I went.
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Lori, the jurors are going to ask themselves, why didn't you call the police? Scared? Scared of what Jay had said or Jeremy had said?
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I didn't know what to do. I had just been beaten. Like, everything just happened so suddenly. I didn't know what to do. That's why all I wanted to do was get the kids out and get back home. And when I came back home, he was not there. Jeremy was not there. And I could not get a hold of him. He came back that afternoon.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There was testimony Isabel gave about after you broke up with Jeremy.
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about him continuing to follow you yes okay tell the jurors about those events there was times i think isabella mentioned i went to go i was already dating travis i went to go pick him up from the church and i'm at the intersection and jeremy's there right beside me yelling and screaming at me to roll down the windows and then proceeds to follow us to real life
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We used to shop at the Publix Claremont 27, and he would just pop up and then start questioning, you know, what are you guys doing? Where are you going? Have you said anything? Make sure you don't say anything. So then we started going to the Publix in Groveland, and all of a sudden he would start showing up there. Target, same thing. Walmart, that's where he showed me his tattoo.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was the summer of 2016, and I was with Travis. And he lifted up, we were in the cereal aisle at Walmart, and he lifted up his shirt and showed me his tattoo in front of my kids and everybody else standing in the aisle of a skull.
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It was a skull?
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Did Jeremy occasionally drive by the residence?
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Yes. So when we moved... Got this place, and we put six cameras up outside our property because we noticed there was an increase in traffic. And I was really paranoid going anywhere. I mean, I look at my surroundings before I get out. I was always afraid that he was following. I mean, I had...
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was picking the kids up for school before we even had moved and he had gotten out of his truck and ran down the middle of the road straight at my truck yelling and screaming in front of the school on multiple occasions trying to get me to converse with him i had agreed to meet him on a couple occasions yes for like 10 minutes and we would have conversations of like nope haven't said anything.
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He wanted me to wait for him, wanted everything to settle down with his wife, and I refused. So when we moved, once somebody was found, I lost my dog. Travis was a youth leader at the time. He started working for a granite company. Finances had gotten really tight. We found a home that we could afford. We got the cameras, and Jeremy was caught on those cameras on a couple occasions going by.
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If I'd seen him now, I would not recognize him if he was standing in front of me.
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Go back a bit. You spoke about, and you have images, clear images, as to the events that would happen on a regular basis. Let's reflect back on that, though. Were these acts events that would cause serious bodily harm to you?
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I always, when I was little, I would go through there to, like, sneak around. And I opened the spare room door, and in front of the spare room door was the dining room. And in front of the dining room, there was a glass door, like a sliding glass door. So I opened the door to the spare room and I stood there and I saw my father and he wasn't supposed to be there.
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Were these events that would involve likewise domestic violence, shouting, and threats?
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Yes, that and more.
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Do you believe that you would be here today but for the act of Isabel?
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Sorry, what?
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Did you meet with Ms. Johnson?
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Lori, have you testified from your heart the truth of these events? Have I left anything out that you feel that you need to tell the juries to clarify any issues that you've spoken of at this stage?
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I mean, there's a lot I would like to get out.
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Okay, direct me to the topic. I know we can't go into the detail of these events, though. Okay. Aside from that, is there anything else?
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Michael had a lot of anger. No, please. Sustained.
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we've spoken about yes the latitude correct but we can't get really i know i know the best subjection your honor this isn't a question all right sustained just correct understand that you don't know yes sir all right please ask a question if you wish so aside from the issues that we've spoken about the temperament and the disposition and the atmosphere
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and all the matters that we've discussed. Is there anything else that you feel that the jury should know?
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Objection. Your honor calls for narrative. It's not. Sustained. Please ask a specific question.
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Is there a topic that we have not discussed?
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No, nothing that I'm going to be able to talk about at this time.
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All right. Thank you, Judge.
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All right, let's have a sidebar. All right, state, you may proceed. Ms.
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That's okay. Now, the biggest question I have for you, because you didn't mention it once in your entire story, is when did your husband get killed?
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The exact date, I cannot recall. It was beginning of May of 2016. It was not November.
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Okay. So sometime, you don't know, but sometime in May of 2016 is when this happened. Okay. Now, your phone number prior to this homicide was 352-431-0419, correct? You don't know your phone number?
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That's not my phone number now.
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You don't... I don't... No, I do not recall my... Okay.
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But if that's the phone number that is from all those screenshots between you and Jeremy Townsend that you saw, would that refresh your memory that that was your phone number?
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Okay. And you, at some point, changed your number to 352-431-8444, correct? Yes.
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I don't believe, I can't recall that because at some point I put my parents on my phone line.
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You remember seeing the court document that was submitted into evidence where you put your address and phone number on it?
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And that 8444 number was what you listed?
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Yeah. I don't remember the phone numbers from back then. And since then, I have also had my parents on my phone bill.
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My question was whether or not that was your phone number. You agree that the 8444 number was your phone number based on that court document?
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You would have been truthful in a court document, correct? Yes. Okay. Now, also, one of the statements that you made, I think you said you wouldn't recognize Jeremy?
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Today, when he walked in, I would have never recognized him today. That's not what he looks like.
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All right. Now, you mentioned the fact that he had this skull tattoo. You have a skull tattoo, too, right? All right. So that doesn't really mean anything.
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I had mine way before. Okay.
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Now, you were saying that you met Jeremy Townsend in August of 2015. Yes.
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Yes. At the end of August.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that he passed you some sort of post-it note. Yes. All right. And you had talked about because you had marks on your face or something like that. Is that a yes? All right. Now, according to you, Michael Shaver had left the residence. In November of 2015, correct? Your residence.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And my mom and my father were fighting and my mom went to leave, like leave the argument, leave the porch, they were out on the porch. And he pulled her by the arm. And he pulled her into her lap onto one of the porch chairs. And he held her there. And then she was like, we can work things out. We'll figure this out. It'll be different. And he was like, no, there's no next time.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. I had kicked him out. All right. Well, I thought that you were the type of person that would just shut down and retreat and couldn't confront anybody. That was your words, right?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I said that I'm not the type of person where if you come at me and say something, like belittling me or anything like that, I shut down and retreat. I'm not confrontational. All right. That was in the context... Of me and my daughter.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you discuss your case with Ms. Johnson?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But you were confrontational with Mike Shaver?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, I told him to get out because he knew that if I called the cops, he would definitely be kicked out and he would be picked up. So, yes, it was pretty much easy to get him out.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Let's try to figure out this by one. In September of 2014... He was arrested for domestic abuse, correct? Correct. And that is when he went to the airport hangar, correct? Where he started living. Yeah. Did he move back into the house after that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. When did that happen?
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I don't know the exact time. It was... How long had he been gone? He had been gone over a year.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. So sometime in 2015.
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It was, yeah, probably summer of 2015.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So if the arrest was in September of 2014, approximately six to eight months that he was gone?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, it was greater than that because he had finished his probation period.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And in that incident, he also suffered injuries, correct? Yes. Because you hit him over the head with a gun, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Well, he had the gun pointed at my head. And at that point, I was done. I thought I was giving up at that point. I had nothing left in me until I seen my kids come out and start screaming. And as soon as I seen them, I took and slammed that gun into his head.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Have you ever told anyone that he was not at fault for that incident? No. No. Did you throw a vase of flowers into the sliding glass door and break that?
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I did. We're good in this specific conduct, but the stain is moved to explode.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can we approach, please? Five R, please. During that incident, did you throw a vase breaking the sliding glass door? Okay. And you also broke objects in the bathroom, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I did not.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There's pictures of the sliding glass door from that incident. You've seen those, correct? Yes. And other items in the house that were broken, correct?
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Along with the injuries to you and the injuries to Mr. Shaver.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The only injury that I was aware of was to his head.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And his pants were torn, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He would hold my keys in his pants and would not let me leave the residence. So after I hit him in the head, pushed the gun into his head, I had to reach into his pocket and grab my truck keys so that I could evade property with my children and get to safety.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, after he left in November of 2015... Okay. Got it straight now? Okay. After he left in November of 2015, was this incident, which ultimately led to his death, the first time that he came back? Yes, it was. Okay. So then in August... I'm sorry, you're saying you actually started a relationship with Jeremy Taliesin in August of 2015?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There's no figuring it out. And he pushed her onto the ground. He pushed her onto the ground. And he started kicking her in the stomach and in the back. And then he took his other foot and he put it on.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We started talking in August, and Michael was still at the residence.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So after November of 2015, he does not come back to the house? Correct. So that check that was sent to him and deposited in his account, he would not have received, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know. He got his mail.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How did he get his mail if he wasn't at the house?
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The mailbox was not at my residence. It was at the end of the road.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So after he left in November of 2015, are you saying that he would just come by every day to pick up his mail?
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I don't know what he did.
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Did you ever notice any mail missing?
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How would I know if it was missing?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you ever notice any of your stuff missing?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did he ever notice any mail coming for Michael Shaver to that address after he left?
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Yes, a few things.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What would you do with that in order to get it to him?
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I would take it back to the post office and do return mail. No longer at this address.
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Where was it going?
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I don't know.
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Where was he?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know. I assumed probably back at the hangar.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
If he left in November of 2015 and went to go live at the hangar, why would he quit his job at Disney?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Because there was a sexual harassment charge against him.
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Okay. You've heard that his supervisor came in and said there was no such thing and there's nothing in those records, correct?
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Oh, I did. I heard that.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Are you saying that Disney falsified those records?
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The sexual harassment complaint filed against him came directly from Michael's mouth.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. You had access to his bank accounts, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, he had access to mine as well.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you with money from his accounts, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And deposited money, correct? Right.
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In November of 2015, what deposits were you making in his account?
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I have no idea. I'm not sure that I was.
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Did he deposit that Mariner check into his account?
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No. I have no idea what that is. All right.
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The money from the sale of all of his property, how did you get that to him?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Well, it was not necessarily his property. It was on his guns.
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the side of her face and she was screaming and he was like saying there's not going to be another time and that he was going to kill her at this time and i heard my mom screaming for help obviously and then he put his foot on the side of her face and pushed it into the ground and i didn't hear her anymore and sorry and so i went to my mom's room And I went at her end table, and I grabbed her gun.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, so after he was arrested and... My question was, how did you get the money from the sale of his guns to him if you didn't know where he was?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I did not give him the money from the sale of the guns. Those were not his guns.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Would you have any way, if you say you don't even know where he is, would you have any way of getting him any of that money?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I never said I gave him money.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You just said you deposited money into his account.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I mean, that was throughout the whole marital. I would deposit money and take out money. He worked overnights. So during the day, if he needed anything, any shopping and all that for the well-being of the house and the kids, I would do that during the day because he was sleeping because he worked overnights.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
As far as the Facebook records, all the stuff from the Lori Shaver Facebook account, you would agree you posted, correct? None of that stuff was anybody hacking you or anything like that?
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It did not appear so.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You had access to Michael Shaver's Facebook, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Previously.
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How did you have access to his account?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Well, previously we had a joint account. After we had separated in 2014, I believe we separated emails. Facebook, prior to that, everything was joint. After that, we went from a joint bank account to bank accounts, to emails, to Facebooks. Prior to that, everything was joint because he controlled everything.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did Ms. Johnson go over all the rights that you would waive by testifying in this case?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you have his password?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Previously, well, it was a joint password because it was a joint account.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When did he start his own account?
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After we had separated in 2014.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you have his password for that account?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Well, that was our account. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you said he started his own account, my question is, all right, did you ever post anything on his account?
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No, I did not.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did your daughter have his password?
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I don't believe so.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was anyone else living in your house after May of 2016 that had access to his phone or password for Facebook?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know about the password, but there was two tablets. There was a laptop and a desktop.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did they have his Facebook profile in it?
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Everything was automatic. Everything was already logged in. So all you had to do was just log it, like open it up, and you were automatically logged in.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was your daughter posting on his Facebook?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was your son posting on his Facebook? No. Now, did you ever tell anyone that after he left in November of 2015 that he was in jail for failing to pay child support?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That wasn't true, correct?
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No, it was not. That was an old manager that I had a relationship with way back when, and he had moved back from Connecticut to Florida and was reaching out to me, and he was... Curious.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's Rameen, correct? Correct. When you say relationship, that's another affair, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But you told him that Mike was in jail for failing to pay child support and his license was suspended, correct?
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I didn't give him my personal information and he was asking about that because... Okay, wait, wait, hold on one second.
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How is Mike being in jail your personal information?
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Accurate personal information because he was questioning. Because prior to that, there was conversations where Michael had threatened once again after finding out to kill me.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So when you told your manager that you had a prior affair with that Mike was in jail, that was a lie. Did you tell your sister that you guys had been working out of separation agreements?
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Well, we actually did work out a separation agreement, and it was filed with the court.
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In order to do that, you have to get a... Was that here in Lake County?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, so there is some sort of divorce proceeding with your name on it and Michael Shavers, because you just said you filed something in court, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I did not say divorce. You said separation. So after 2014, after that incident, we both had attorney representation, and Michael and I came up with an agreement, handwritten. We both signed it. That was filed.
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At this courthouse.
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What case is that in?
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Whatever the prior DCF is, and I had won that case with no adjudication. I don't know where that record is, but it was filed. And in that agreement, he agreed to pay X amount of money. I would keep the kids. He could not take the kids. He would see them. every other weekend, whatever. We had that separation. I made more money than he did. I covered the health insurance. I covered the kids.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I kept the house. He was moving out of the house and he was going to pay X, Y, Z. That was a handwritten document that both of us signed in front of the mediator at this DCF agreement that I won with no adjudication.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there ever a divorce proceeding started?
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No, there was not. Not in the state of Florida.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After 2015, was there ever a divorce proceeding started?
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When law enforcement came and asked you about the whereabouts of your husband, you were not truthful with them, correct?
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I didn't know where he went.
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You know what happened to him, correct? Right. You didn't tell him that, correct? The Walmart purchase that was on your husband's bank account, you did that, correct? Yes.
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I don't recall doing that.
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That was sent to your house with your name on it, correct?
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I don't recall the exact parameters around it or what I bought or anything like that.
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So this event happens in May of 2016, correct? Yes. Your relationship with Jeremy Townsend and very fultrously in May of 2016, correct? Is that a yes?
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And your relationship with Travis Filmer then begins in May of 2016, correct?
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He came over at the end of May, yes.
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And I went back out, and I went to the door. The door was already open. And he had my mom on the ground still, still holding her to the ground, still kicking her. And I shot him. And nothing happened. He didn't fall. Nothing happened. And then Jeremy.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you were actually engaged to him in July of 2016, correct? Yes. In April of 2016, Rebecca Urbanowski was living with you, correct? Correct. And the fire pit itself was built in March of 2016? Yes.
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I guess so.
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That's when you posted it, right? And then how big was your property? And out of all of that land, you just happened to choose the area where your dead husband's body was found to put that cement block. That's basically what you're saying here, correct?
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I figured they did not know his body was there. It went there because the area was already dug out.
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Quite a coincidence, you'd agree, correct?
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No, not necessarily. Not if you realize the whole parameters of what came first and how that all transpired. Like I said, that was something that Jeremy and I had originally talked about doing because I'd gotten rid of the animals and we had the fire pit and we were talking about wanting to, I mean, it was his suggestion to put in concrete.
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So the March 2016, when you put that fire pit in, and two months later is when your husband is still on your property, correct?
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Yes. Concrete was not poured until September.
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Correct. By you and your now husband.
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But I had no knowledge that he was under there. If I was trying to cover him up, why would I do that so many months later? And only...
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I haven't asked you a question, ma'am. So the incident that led to your husband's death, Clinton had not been around for months, correct?
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And he just happens to show up sometime in May of 2016, correct? Correct.
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It just happened. That was pretty typical of him being gone for months and then showing up and us getting back together.
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And then during that time frame, this was sometime before you were going to take your kids to school, correct?
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Yes, he was out on the porch when I went.
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How was he dressed?
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Shorts, t-shirt, sneakers.
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And an argument between the two of you starts.
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Yes, I went outside. I got the kids settled, and I went outside to talk to them. How old was your daughter at this point? Seven.
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And is there a reason why you never talked to your daughter how to dial 911?
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I mean, we just had cell phones. We didn't have a landline. She knew how to dial 911, but like I said, I had my cell phone on me. The security system that we had, she would not have been able to reach. It was above the keys where the door was.
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When she said, I didn't know how to call 911, I'm asking why you wouldn't have taught her.
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I did teach her how to call 911, but she didn't have a phone.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Now, your testimony is that she shot him, correct? Yes. And at that point, you were able to get out from underneath Mr. Shaver, correct? Correct.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I did not crawl away until he was falling to the ground. After she shot him, I was still looking at her, like, still comprehending everything that was happening. I wasn't two yet because he had been, had his foot on my face, smushing it into the ground. It took me, I mean, it wasn't that long, but it took me a little bit to kind of comprehend what was occurring. And then...
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After being shot, correct? Mm-hmm. He certainly didn't get up out of the chair after being shot, correct?
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No, not until, no, no. After the second shot, he fell forward. The first shot, he sat in the chair.
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At the time of his death, Mike Shaver was about 5'3"? 5'3"? Mm-hmm. 5'8", 5'10".
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Okay. 5'2".
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The probable cause affidavit around the time of his arrest listed him at 5'3 and 130 pounds. You're saying that's inaccurate?
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That was probably me.
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Okay, well, you weren't arrested, right?
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His probable cause from 2014?
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Yes. You're saying that that 5'3 and 130 pounds is inaccurate is what you're saying?
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Yes, definitely probably not what's on his driver's license. He was not 5'3. He was like 5'8 and 150, 160 pounds. Okay. I was 5'2 and 115'20.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When Mike left, he left his vehicle, correct?
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You're talking about the black car.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I'm talking about he had a vehicle and he left it behind, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
His black car had been sitting there for a while. He had a bent rim and the air in the tire could not stay inflated. So he was driving my truck back and forth to work.
Crimeatorium
Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My question was, when he left and moved out, he left his car, correct? And he left everything that he had that had any sort of value that could be sold, correct? Guns, tools, ATV, left all that behind.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He was sitting in the chair. He was sitting in the chair. Right. I'm not exactly sure. No. Right.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All the tools that were in the shed were of no use to him. They were like old tools and stuff like that, and it wasn't an ATV.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My question was, he left the stuff behind, stuff that he could have sold, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He stopped going to work and lost his job because of it, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was not aware of that at that time.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So he lost his ability to make any money, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was not aware of that at that time.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Prior to November of 2015, he would call you using the phone frequently, correct? Correct.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, because he was back in the house and we were working things, trying to work things out.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After November of 2015, there is absolutely no calls to you after that November 7th, 2015, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't recall.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There's not a single call to you, to the children, anything, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't recall.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There's no activity on his bank other than withdrawals from the ATM in Claremont, where you live, correct? I would not. November 2015, he just vanishes off the face of the earth. No one can account for him, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is it still your desire to testify?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't believe that's true.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But you've definitely not had any contact with him in any way since... until he shows up someday, which you do not know, in May of 2016 when this incident occurs, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, he showed up prior to May. At my property, but he was already causing trouble prior to that, which fits within his history of doing this.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My question to you previously was, after you kicked him out in November of 2015, and prior to him coming out the day that he was still, I asked you, did he ever come and have any contact with you? You said no, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not physically correct, but calls and stuff like that, yes. Calls? His threats, stuff like that.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You saw the phone records, which show absolutely no calls from him after November 7th, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He was communicating with Jeremy. I believe he had sent me text. He had sent me a nasty text prior to that, telling me I was just like my mom. Something to that effect. He was communicating.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
From your IP address.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't know that that's my IP address. How can you verify that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Because it's the same IP address that your account that you said you used posted on as well.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, how do we know that he didn't post on my Facebook or log into my Facebook?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So what vehicle, the day that he showed up in May of 2016, what vehicle did he use to get to your house that day? What vehicle was in your yard that you didn't recognize that day?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. So he just walked? He just showed up without a vehicle in your house on the back porch?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not paying attention to that.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nothing further, Judge.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you, Mr. Wiggs. I don't have anything. Thank you, Judge. All right. Yes, sir. Thank you. You may step down from the witness stand. Any other witnesses, Mr. Wiggs? No. At this time, the defense will rest, Judge. All right. The defense has rested.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
From the rear region? Where do you think you shot?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was aiming towards his head, but I'm not sure where the bullet went.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And what happened after you fired the gun?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you understand your obligation to testify truthfully?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He was just sitting there. I mean, he wasn't moving. Nothing happened. There was no blood. There was no nothing. And then...
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, let me interject here and there if I may.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you feel when you fired that shot that that had to be done or he would have killed your mother?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, yes, yes. Firm on that? I'm firm on that.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was he using that type of force in your mind? Yes. Was necessary?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. What happened after you shot him or you believe you shot him?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
um afterwards jeremy came and he how long it was right like right after it happened like i hadn't even had a chance to walk away move nothing yet and um he came in and he took the gun from me and then he shot him again and that's when he fell to the ground and um my mom had crawled away he fell to the ground jeremy shot him um
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Are you going to testify truthfully?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He told my mom to take us out of the house, take us to school, and that we needed to leave. We're not to tell anybody. We can't tell nobody. We can't call the cops. We can't say anything. Or else he was going to do the same thing to me and my brother. And he was going to, you know, hurt us too. So we went to school.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm going to testify truthfully.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So you leave the residence, go to school. When you get to school, what happens?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Would you explain your relationship to Lori Shaver?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We get to school. I mean, nothing really happened at school. I would say I was most definitely in shock. But at the same time, it was like because those types of events happen often, I was very used to like, you know, like the violence and seeing things like that. And so I was still able to like perform normally at school. And just kind of, I mean, go about my day, be at school.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What time did you get out of school?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was in elementary school, so I think around like 3. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you came home, was Jay there?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, yes, he was. He was fixing the front door.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Lori Shaver is my mother. Me and her are very close. We... We've always been very close. She's, I mean, we do everything together. We're, I mean, I don't know. She's like my best friend and a mom in one.
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there any evidence of your father in the residence?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did Jeremy make any mention about he'd take care of this or anything like that?
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Part 6: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah. When he told my mom to take us out of the house and he told us not to tell anybody, he said that he would take care of it.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, when you look at 58.2, there were also unaccounted for alleles in that instance. It was only seven of them. There was a clear overlap between what you were seeing in the unaccounted for alleles on 58.1, where there were 17. When you get to 58.3 and 58.4, there were only four unaccounted for alleles that couldn't have been from Ms. Tibbetts, could not have been from the defendant.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And there was, when you get down to four alleles, it's hard to say there's overlap because it's just a few alleles. A lot of people could carry those. But there was some similarity throughout the 1, 2, 3, and 4 there in Area 58.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Let's move on to item 59. That's another fabric-covered liner area from the trunk of the Black Malibu. Is that correct, sir?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's correct.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Describe any interpretation issues that you have there.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When we talk about Area 59, there were multiple areas that were looked at, but there were three particular areas where there was a presumptive positive for blood. So we're not confirming blood here, but there's a clear indication that probably what you're looking at is blood. And those were 58.3, 4, and 5. I'm sorry, I'm saying 58. See, I knew I was going to get confused. 59.3, 4, and 5.
Crimeatorium
Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
On 59.3, there was a mixture, I believe that was called, as a mixture of at least three individuals. The stronger profile was clearly consistent with Ms. Tibbetts, and I agree with that 100%. There was additional genetic information there. In one instance, it was 10. I'm sorry, in 59.3, it was 10 unaccounted for alleles. And so those could have been from Ms.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Tibbetts, could not have been from the defendant either. And that appeared to be from an unknown male. Unknown because we only have one male to compare that genetic information to.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You'll hear about the differences in Mexico, that it's not just, you know, $7.25 an hour versus $12 an hour that someone can make for an income capacity. that the differences between someone that is trying to find employment in Mexico and someone that is trying to find employment in the United States, it's a fraction that a person can make down there.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, so 59.3%. There is a DNA source that is from what you believe to be an unknown male. Is that correct?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. Beyond the clear, what we would call a major presence of misdhibits, there were those 10 alleles. And then also at 59.4, there were four additional alleles. unaccounted for alleles that showed some similarity to what was in 59.3, but not that clear. And then 59.5, that was very weak. And the laboratory called that inconclusive. And I agree, it was too inconclusive to even work with.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Let's move on to 60, which also is part of the fabric trunk liner. Is that correct?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's correct.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what were your findings in analyzing that evidence?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In that instance, once again, using the inventory of DNA from Ms. Tibbetts, the inventory of DNA from the defendant, what unaccounted for alleles were there at 60.1%? added up to 14 unaccounted for alleles in that instance. It was a little too iffy to say whether that was male or female. They were very weak alleles, but there were a lot of them, 14.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you just know that there's another contributor that is not Ms. Tibbetts, correct? Correct. And the contributor is also not Mr. Bahena-Rivera, is that right?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's correct.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were there similar results from the area of the fabric aligner of the door of the trunk? That's item 61.1?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. In that instance, there were, once again, just looking at the inventory of the two individuals, there were five unaccounted for alleles in that location.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So when it comes to the details of specific interpretations, and specifically with reference to 58, 59, 60, and 61, what is your interpretation, sir?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I would say that it's typical of a lot of laboratories that they are going to be very oversimplified.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
interpreting mixtures like that and a lot of times they're going to be just written off as uninterpretable or not suitable for comparison and to some degree I agree with that but I disagree that there aren't unaccounted for alleles that could not be tied to either the defendant or Miss Tibbetts that there are other contributors there and you can even in some instances as I pointed out you could deduce that they were likely from a female in one instance in one area 58 and
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then there was male DNA in another area that was unaccounted for. And then a few other areas where there were just a few added alleles in there. And it was difficult to say what the gender was of those people, except that they were not Miss Tibbetts and they were not the defendant.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If a known DNA sample were provided to the lab, could that be compared to see if there were similarities with the samples?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, you can always do a comparison.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No further questions. Thank you.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brown, you may cross-examine. Just to make sure I have this understood with regard to what you do, you don't have a laboratory of your own, is that correct? I do not. If you wanted to have any item tested in this case, you would have to submit it to an outside lab, is that correct? Yeah. You don't do your own testing? No, I do not.
Crimeatorium
Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The only background that you have with any state crime lab like what Ms. Scott, who she works for, was in Indiana for about four years? Yes. Is that true? It was four years with Indiana State Police. Okay. You are aware from reviewing all of the laboratory material that samples were retained for further testing if needed. Is that true? That's correct.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that is sticking with DCI laboratory protocols. Would that be true?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, that's similar to the protocols we had with the Indiana State Police is to avoid consumption of items.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And that's so it can be retested, correct? Yes. Either to confirm or disconfirm what the criminalist would have done at the state laboratory here in Iowa. Is that right? That's the idea, yes. Okay. Did you request that any of the items that you reviewed in the report be resubmitted to an outside laboratory for any type of testing?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I typically don't recommend doing outsourced testing or recommend against it. If that issue comes up, that's where I point out that there are labs that I favor over other labs.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I understand, but you were mentioning with Ms. Freeze earlier in your testimony these other items that you were interpreting beyond what Ms. Scott interpreted, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, there are items that were interpreted by the Iowa DCI, but the interpretations were just a little bit oversimplified and as being inconclusive results.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And would you expect that if you resubmitted those items to an outside laboratory, the same results would have occurred?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If you're talking about comparison just to the two individuals, I think you probably, you would at least expect the same results. What the key is, is that are there other individuals there? Well, there are. We'd have to take reference samples and make comparisons to those.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And although we've brought this case and we've talked about immigration, because we must embrace it.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You have any issue at all with the state crime lab that they followed their own protocols in this case in interpreting what was found in the trunk of the Black Malibu?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I have no issues with the way that they did their protocols. And as for their interpretations, I've been pretty clear about how I might interpret things a little bit different than the way they did.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And would it be fair to say that Ms. Scott's interpretations are fairly conservative when it comes to identifying any person's DNA in the trunk.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, I think and that's typical of a lot of laboratories that they're going to be a little bit noncommittal when there are weak added profiles that are present within there.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And certainly your interpretation would be subject to disagreement. Is that correct? That is always the case. Okay. If we were to ask another criminalist that has DNA expertise, they might disagree with what you're saying here today? They would be free to do so if they felt that that was correct. That your interpretations are a little bit more liberal than the interpretations of the DCI Crime Lab?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We must embrace that the evidence here shows you that Mr. Bahena-Rivera came to this country. You can agree with it. You cannot agree with it. You can be Republican or you can be Democrat. But the evidence here that you must decide, the evidence here that you must rely on has nothing to do with that side issue. It's the black or the white socks that we talked about in jury selection.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would that be true?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I would say that comparing them side by side, it's more liberal to say that they're unaccounted for alleles, but they clearly were. So I find it hard to believe that they disagree with at least that.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm assuming that you are aware of a blood stain that was found on the trunk seal of the... black Chevy Malibu. Are you aware of that? Yes, I am. And you're aware that that particular blood stain was compared to the known DNA of Molly Tibbetts? Yes, that's correct. And the testimony has been that that DNA, the
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
that was developed from that blood stain was a match to the known DNA of Molly Tibbetts. Do you disagree with that? I agree fully with that. And on that blood stain, on that trunk liner that is Molly Tibbetts' blood, there was no mixture, correct? No, there was a single source in that instance, yes. And that single source DNA profile that is Molly Tibbetts' blood would give us strong evidence.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would you agree that Molly Tibbetts was on or in the trunk of a black Malibu?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was a single source. How it got there, the DNA can't tell you that, only that it's there and it's clearly her DNA. There's no doubt that it might be somebody else.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's not. I understand. We have to look at all the evidence in the case to make that determination. Would you agree? I would agree. You're just one part of that, like Ms. Scott is one part of the case. Would that be true? Precisely. But the blood certainly associates an injured Molly Tibbetts with the black Malibu. Would that be true? I think that that's a reasonable assumption, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And the mixture that's inside the trunk also has the known DNA of Molly Tibbetts, is that correct?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In the one case that was 59.3, yes, I fully agree that that was consistent with Molly Tibbetts.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Certainly that blood would associate Molly Tibbetts with the trunk of the black Malibu, is that correct?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, presuming that that's blood, and I think that that's a reasonable presumption. There's no doubt that that was from her and could have been from an injury sustained to the woman.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
it would associate Molly Tibbetts' presence inside the trunk of the black Chevy Malibu. Is that correct? I think that there's potential for that, yes. And again, the fact that Molly's blood is inside the trunk would indicate to you or any other expert looking at this that she was injured while she was in the trunk. Would that be true?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I think that that would be a very reasonable, logical assumption. concerning your interpretation of the presence of other DNA, you have no idea how that other DNA may have been transferred into the trunk. Is that true? That's correct. You might look at other factors and other evidence in a case to draw that conclusion, correct? Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is where a lot of other factors can be considered to try and determine who that is. Okay. And you might look at statements that the driver of the black Malibu made in the helping to make that kind of determination. Would that be true? I think that that would be pertinent information to consider, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, and you might look at what other witnesses may have said in the case or testified to concerning how or when a person might have been associated with a vehicle. Would that be true?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, I think that in all cases you do want to consider what witnesses say. All right.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, the other profile that you're testifying to with regard to interpretation, one of those was female, correct? That's correct. That could be Molly Tibbetts' DNA. Would that be true?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In the instance of the areas on 59, I'm sorry, 58, area 58? No, they were... unaccounted for alleles that were not consistent with Ms. Tibbetts or the defendant. Okay, so you can exclude Molly Tibbetts based upon your interpretation?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There's really no cause to believe that her DNA is in that particular area, 58.1. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. Would that mean another female had been in the trunk? Oh, there's no way of knowing if that means somebody was in the trunk. So it could have been transferred in there by another item that had been placed in the trunk at some point in time.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, it could be direct contact from a person. It could be a transfer event. It could be someone in the trunk. There's no way of knowing how that came to be there.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And the same would be true with regard to what you've identified and interpreted as another male DNA in the trunk. Would that be true? That's correct. It's the same answers for those. Would you agree that... heat and elements degrade DNA?
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The DNA is very resistant to heat. It can be, but it's best not for it to be exposed to heat. Moisture can be bad. Sunlight can be bad for DNA. And just a lot of things can erode, rub off, or dilute DNA.
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All right. And you're aware of the fact that Molly Tibbetts was found in a cornfield in rural Poweshiek County on August 21st of 2018. Are you aware of that? Yes, I am. And it would appear that her body had been there for several weeks. Would that be true? That's correct. All right. And that type of decomposition that would have occurred in this case would certainly degrade DNA. Is that right?
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It's going to have a tendency to degrade DNA, to be out in the environment exposed in that fashion, to remove all the DNA. Not likely, but it's not going to be very helpful for recovery of DNA.
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And what we ask you to do is when you evaluate the evidence, to set that aside. It's not part of the case. It's not part of the elements. It's just a mere fact.
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Have you ever been in a cornfield in the middle of July after a rainstorm? Probably have been.
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That's an Indiana thing there.
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I lived right next to one. It can be fairly humid, correct? Oh, yeah. And wet. Yes. And all of those things affect... the ability to get any type of identifiable DNA from a body. Is that correct? That's correct. Dr. Spence, thank you very much. I don't have any further questions.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you, Mr. Brown. Ms. Freeze, do you have redirected?
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Sir, let's talk first about the single source DNA profile from Molly Tibbetts' blood on the bumper of the vehicle. You recall talking about that, is that right?
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Yes.
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And so for that, only Molly Tibbetts' blood was found there, is that correct?
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That's correct.
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And so there weren't any other sources to compare to or anything like that, is that correct?
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That's correct.
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Now focusing then to items 59 and 60, those are both inside of the trunk, is that correct?
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That's my understanding as to how those were located.
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And I want to focus to 59.3. That's a cutting that was taken from the fabric liner. Is that right?
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That's correct.
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And your findings were that one of the profiles was Molly Tibbetts. Is that correct?
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Yes.
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But you also found that there were two other DNA profiles that were included. Is that right?
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There did appear to be more than one other source.
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The strongest source, were you able to give any sort of opinion as to whether those came from a male or a female?
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Those did appear to be from a male.
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Now, we have Mr. Bahena-Rivera's sample to compare. Is that correct?
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That's correct.
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What about item 60.1? That's another item that there was a mixture of DNA found. Is that right?
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Yes.
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And if we had another known buckle swab of a potential suspect, would that be of use in comparison?
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Yeah, if you had a known reference from anybody, you could do that same comparison.
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No further questions.
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Mr. Brown, any recross? Just a few questions, Judge. You would agree that the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation did not break their interpretation guidelines. Would that be true? I don't believe so, no. And is it safe to say, Dr. Spence, that you would expect another person's DNA in the trunk of a well-used car? It wouldn't be a surprise to find other sources of DNA.
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that you must rely on and what you must do is take all those other facts take all those other things whether you agree on them or you don't agree on them and to decide whether or not you believe the evidence can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt now let's talk about this interrogation
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And are you aware as to the protocols that the DCI crime lab follows in making their comparisons in DNA analysis?
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I wouldn't say I'm fluent in that. So there was no real surprise in some instances calling mixtures uninterpretable.
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And so it's no surprise to you and certainly within the realm of... the expertise of the DNA and analysts at the crime lab that they will not compare a sample if it is too weak or too complex.
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Sometimes they will and surprise me that they do and sometimes they won't and it surprises me that they didn't do a comparison. In this instance they only had the two references so with unaccounted for alleles they wrote those off as uninterpretable.
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And DNA, blood, items where you can develop a profile, you cannot place a time as to when that particular DNA was placed in that particular location. Would that be true? That's correct. DNA doesn't come with a time stamp. You have no dispute that Molly Tibbetts' blood and DNA was on the trunk seal of the black Chevy Malibu that's at issue in this case? No, I don't dispute that at all.
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And you also don't dispute that Molly Tibbetts' blood and DNA was inside the trunk of the black Chevy Malibu that's one of the subjects of this case. Would that be true? Yes. So Molly Tibbetts' blood is inside the trunk? Apparently, yes. All right. That's all.
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Thank you. Ms. Fries, are we done with this witness?
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Yes.
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The defense may call their next witness.
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Defense calls Alejandra Cervantes. Please state your full name.
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Alejandra Cervantes Valle. Where do you live? I live in Toledo, Iowa. Who do you live there with? With my husband and my children.
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Are you related by marriage to Christian Bahena Rivera? Yes. How are you related to Christian Bahena Rivera?
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Because he's my husband's nephew.
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When approximately did you first meet Christian Bahena Rivera? Four, five, six, seven years. And is that the time that Christian Bahena Rivera came to the central Iowa area? Yes. How did you find out that he was coming?
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Well, I don't remember well how he went. The only thing I knew is that he was already here.
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Did Christian Bahena Rivera come by lawful means?
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No.
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Since Christian Bahena Rivera has been in this country, has he been employed? Yes. Where has he worked?
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Well, I knew that he worked at a, well, we call it the dairy.
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How often would Christian Bahena-Rivera work? All week. Would his work take him every day? Yes. Describe Christian Bahena-Rivera's demeanor, how he is around family. Well, with the family, he's very funny. He always is playing with the family. If he is with people that he does not know, have you seen him? Yes. Describe his behavior then. He's very shy. He's shy. He's quiet.
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So once people get to know him, he's more outgoing, is that right? When he feels comfortable with the people, yes. You understand that Christian Bahena Rivera has been charged with the murder of Molly Tibbetts, is that right? Yes. Now, when this woman went missing, did you see information about it on the news? Yes.
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You heard Ms. Romero and I quibble between an interview and an interrogation.
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How did you become aware that Christian Bahena Rivera had been sought by law enforcement?
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Well, I found out once that he had been stopped to be asked questions, used routine questions. And the second time, it was when my sister-in-law called us and let us know that he was at the Manasuma Police Department.
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So you find out that he's being brought in for questioning, is that right?
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Yes.
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As time goes on, do you become concerned for his welfare?
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Yes.
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Did you go to the police department?
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Yes.
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The police department, you said, is in Montezuma, is that right?
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Yes.
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What time did you arrive?
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I arrived there at like 8.30.
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When you arrived there, was there anyone else in your family that was there?
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Yes, my brother-in-law.
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What is his name?
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Luis Medina.
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When you arrived there, were you even admitted inside of the building?
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No. When you get there, there's a small, I guess you could call it like a small porch that you go into when you get there.
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It wasn't an interview. It wasn't an interrogation. What you will see in this case is there's no dispute on the fact that my client worked 12 hours at a dairy farm, poop and poop,
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If you go further inside a locked door, there's a waiting room with chairs. Is that right?
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Yes.
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Were you allowed admission into that waiting room where there were chairs?
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No.
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So you stayed in the kind of porch area is what you're saying?
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Yes. Okay.
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How long approximately were you at the sheriff's office?
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I was there from 8.30 until 1.30 in the morning.
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When you were there, were there officers and did it appear there were things going on?
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Yes.
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Did you attempt through any means to try to talk with an officer?
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When they went by and I saw them, yes.
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Did they help you?
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No.
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Did you ask them any questions or anything like that?
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No.
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You have Christian Bahena-Rivera's phone number, is that right?
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Yes.
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Would it be unusual for him to call you?
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No.
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Would it be unusual for him to text you?
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No.
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Would he rely on you if he needed help with something?
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Oh, yes.
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For example, previously, I think he's asked you to buy flowers for him for a date. Is that right?
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Yes.
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And were you able to organize that for him?
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Yes.
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Do you remember approximately when that was that Christian Rivera or Christian Bahena Rivera had that date?
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No, the date just escaped me right now.
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Okay, sometime that summer of 2018.
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Yes.
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In any event, you and my client had fairly frequent phone contact, is that right?
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Yes.
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Did you try to contact Christian Bahena-Rivera that night that he was taken into custody?
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Yes.
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How so?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We called his number.
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Were you able to reach him?
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No.
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How many times approximately did you try to reach Christian Bahena-Rivera by phone or text?
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We called him several times. I don't remember the exact number.
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At some point in time, did a woman come out and speak to you while you were at the sheriff's office?
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Yes.
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Describe what the woman looked like and what she was wearing.
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She looked young, like me. I remember that she was wearing a strong blue.
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I'd ask the court attendant to bring up Defendant's Exhibit II. Ma'am, what picture is shown in Defendant's Exhibit II?
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I see Christian in a corner, and I see the woman who spoke with us.
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Now I'd ask counsel to bring up Exhibit JJ. What's shown in those pictures, ma'am?
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I see Christian again in the corner, and I can see that she's leaving.
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The woman that's in the blue in Defendant's Exhibit JJ is the woman that came and talked to you, is that right?
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Yes.
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Approximately what time did she come and talk with you?
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Like around 10.30.
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When she came to talk to you, what did she say?
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I asked her if we needed an attorney for Christian. We had been waiting for him for several hours. Hang on.
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cleaning grounds, and then at the end of his day, he was brought to the Poweshiek County Sheriff's Office. Now, did he voluntarily go? Yes. Was he asked, hey, will you come down? Yes. But something that you must decide and something that you must think about from the evidence is whether this man This defendant here, a man who is a yes man, that's what the evidence will show you.
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Yes, go ahead. And that this has previously been addressed by the court. Sustained on both grounds.
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Ma'am, after you talked with this woman, what did you do?
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She said that we didn't need an attorney.
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We've already addressed this at the bench. I would ask that the court take some steps to admonish the witness with regard to her answer. that would be consistent with your ruling?
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So, at this time we'll do two things. The previous answer is stricken from the record. The witness is hereby admonished that Well, the witness should not be speaking about this subject, and we'll have the next question posed, and I think the attorney understands that, given my ruling, we should not be in this area. So go ahead.
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All right, ma'am. It was a bad question that I asked, okay? Okay.
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Not your fault.
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Okay.
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Okay.
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I don't want you to tell the jury anything that Officer Romero told you. Okay.
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Okay.
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But do tell them how long you talked to Officer Romero.
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Very little, less than five minutes.
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Did you ask when your nephew would be released?
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Yes.
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And did you also ask to see your nephew?
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No, we did not ask for that.
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After that conversation was done, were you offered any opportunity to see your nephew?
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No.
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Did you continue to wait?
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Yes.
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And you continued to wait in this little porch area?
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Yes.
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At some point in time, did you and your family decide to leave?
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Yes.
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And why?
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At that time, several hours had already gone by. It was close to 1.30 in the morning, and at that time, we decided that they weren't going to give us any information, and so we decided to leave.
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Were you ever able to reach Christian Bahena Rivera?
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No.
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At some point later, did you find out he had been arrested for murder?
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No.
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Are you aware of Christian Bahena Rivera's family in Mexico?
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Yes.
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Who did he live with in Mexico?
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With his parents and his sisters.
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Was he the oldest child of the family?
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Yes.
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In a Hispanic culture, is it customary for the oldest sibling to take care of the family? Normally, yes. Would you talk with family in Mexico?
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Yes.
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And were you encouraged to take good care of Christian Bahena Rivera?
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Yes, especially my husband.
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Why so?
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Because for all of the uncles that he has here, he's the youngest one.
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So they wanted you to take him under your wing, is that right? Yes. Was it your understanding that he was taking care of family in Mexico?
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Yes.
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How so?
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He was the one who was sending money so that they could eat, and he was the one who was sending money so that they could build their house.
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No further questions.
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Mr. Brown, you may cross-examine.
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Ms. Cervantes, how old was Christian Bahena-Rivera as of July 18th of 2018, if you know? I'm not sure, but I think like 20. So he was an adult?
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Yes.
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You were at the sheriff's office on July, I'm sorry, on August 20th of 2018 from 8.30 to about 11.30 p.m., is that correct?
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Until 1.30 in the morning.
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I'm sorry, I misspoke. 8.30 p.m. until 1.30 a.m. the next morning, is that correct?
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Yes.
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Were you always there with the other person that you had mentioned before?
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Yes.
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Did you ever leave the sheriff's office at any time in that same time frame? No.
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No.
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Between 8.30 p.m. and about 11.30 p.m., did you make or attempt any phone calls or text messages to Christian Rivera?
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Calling him.
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And did he ever answer the phone?
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No.
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Did he ever respond to the text messages?
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No.
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Did you meet Pamela Romero while you were at the sheriff's office on August 20th, 2018?
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Yes.
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She came out into the area where you were waiting?
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Yes.
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You had a conversation with her?
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Yes.
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She was pleasant to talk to?
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Yes.
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And do you know how long your conversation took with Ms. Romero?
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I believe less than five minutes.
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And was that the only contact that you had with her on that evening while you were at the sheriff's office?
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Yes.
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Prior to July 18th of 2018, how often in any given week would you be in the presence of Christian Bahena-Rivera?
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Only once a week.
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Was that on average?
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Yes.
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Would that typically happen at your place of residence or some other place?
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He would always come to Luis' house.
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Luis who?
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Luis Medina.
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And tell us again who Luis Medina is.
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Go clean the stable, yes. Go do this, yes. Go do that, yes. And the evidence will show you, the evidence has shown you, that they came to this dairy farm and everybody cooperated. Everybody just took a buckle swab. Everybody did what they needed to do, consistent with what they did that day. And you hear about this interrogation. And then it went on and on and on.
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He's my brother-in-law.
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Did you know Christian Bahena Rivera to drive a black Chevy Malibu?
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I only knew he had a black car.
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Ms. Cervantes, thank you very much. That's all the questions I have.
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Ms.
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Fries, any redirect?
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During the times that you were around Christian Vejena Rivera, was he ever violent? No. Do you ever remember him fighting with anyone?
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Overruled. Witness may answer if she knows.
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No, he was not violent. Has he been respectful to your brothers-in-law and your husband? Yes. Around children?
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Oh, yes.
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All the children loved him. He was a funny guy, correct?
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As you can understand, proper character evidence and specific instances of conduct are not admissible at this time. Objection is overruled. Witness may answer.
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Go ahead. Yes. No further questions.
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Brown and Recross? No, Recross. Thank you.
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Please state your full name.
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Iris Manares Gamboa. Where do you live, ma'am? Cedar Rapids.
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Do you live there with anyone?
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My boyfriend and my daughter.
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What is your daughter's name? Paulina. And your daughter Paulina is how old? She's five. Who is Paulina's father?
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Christian Baena Rivera.
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I want you to take the jury through how you met Christian Bahena Rivera.
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We met at a quinceanera, which is like a sweet 16. That's where we met.
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Once you met, did you hit it off? Yes. Exchange numbers?
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Yes.
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Start to date each other as a couple?
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Yes.
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At some point did you end up moving in together?
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Yes, when I got pregnant.
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And that's pregnant with your daughter Paulina, is that right?
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Yes.
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Where did you two move in together?
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At my mom's house.
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And you lived there for a while, is that right? Yes. At some point, did you decide to establish your own residence?
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Yes.
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And how did you find a place to live as a family?
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Well, he worked at the Yarby farm and we lived on their property.
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So he was able to work out something where he was able to live at Yarrabee Farms, is that right? Correct. How long did you and Christian Bahena-Rivera reside together at that place at Yarrabee Farms?
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From 2016 to 2017.
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Your daughter lived there, is that right? Yes. Approximately how old was she when you moved there?
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She was a year, I believe.
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And when you broke up, were you and my client able to co-parent your daughter as a mother and a father should?
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Yes.
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And specifically, Christian worked very long hours. Is that right?
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Yes.
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When he worked and you were living with him, was he the primary support of your family? Yes. What approximately were his hours at Yarrabee Farms?
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About 12 hours.
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So he would go to work early in the morning, is that right? Yes. And then he would come home around dinner time? Yes. How many days would he work consecutively?
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He would only get his days off every two weeks.
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So every two weeks he would get... Two days off. He'd get two days off.
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Yes.
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So it'd be two weeks on, two days off. Is that right? When you and Christian broke up, were you able to work out without involving the court's parenting arrangement?
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Yes.
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And what did you two work out?
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He would give me $250 every two weeks because he got paid biweekly.
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So he'd get paid and he'd pay you every other week, is that right? Yes. Did Christian have other obligations, to your knowledge, to his family in Mexico?
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Yes, he would send money to his parents and he was also making a house over there for them.
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If someone is an illegal immigrant in this country, do they fear law enforcement contact?
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Unfortunately, you're not going to be able to see the entire thing. It's insanity. But what the evidence has shown you and what the evidence will show you is that there was a systematic confrontation with my client. The first thing... is he was talked to. You know, tell me about your life. Tell me about your family. Tell me about your daughter.
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Yes.
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Why?
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Because they know they'll get deported.
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Describe how he was as a father in general.
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He was a really good father. He was responsible and he always looked after his daughter.
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He made sure to take care of her, right? Yes. He would send you money even though there's no court order, right? Yes. Would he buy things for Paulina in addition to the support that he provided you?
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Yes.
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What sorts of things?
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Like shoes, toys.
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Has Christian Bahena Rivera ever been violent towards you? No. Has he ever been violent towards your daughter?
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No.
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Did Christian Bahena Rivera ever express any sort of anger that you believed was excessive?
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No.
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Other than the normal couples arguing, did he have any sort of anger problems?
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No.
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Now you graduated from Brooklyn, is that right? Yes. Brooklyn is a high school that has a large Hispanic population, fair to say?
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No.
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Okay, approximately what percentage would be Hispanic?
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Well from what I recall in my classroom there were about three of us that were Hispanic.
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What was your graduating class?
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About 45 to 50 people.
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Was race something that was talked about often in Brooklyn?
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Yes. Objection, Your Honor. Relevance? Sustained.
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Ma'am, you associated with your class, is that correct? Yes. I want to ask you about a man named Ulysses Felix. Who is that?
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That's my cousin.
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And did he also go to Brooklyn High School?
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Yes.
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What year was he in relation to you?
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I believe he was two years younger.
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Did Ulysses Felix know Christian Bahena Rivera?
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Yes.
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Has Ulysses Felix spent time at Christian Rivera Bahena's house?
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Yes.
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Did Ulysses Felix know Dalton Jack?
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Yes.
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Overruled. The witness may answer if she knows.
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Yes. Did you know Dalton Jack? Yes. Do you have an opinion as to Dalton Jack's demeanor?
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From what I recall, I remember he was pretty racist.
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No further questions.
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Mr. Claver, any cross? Yes, Your Honor. Actually, before you do so, Mr. Claver and Ms. Freeze, why don't you approach real quick? Mr. Claver, you may proceed with your cross-examination of this witness.
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Thank you, Your Honor. Ms. Gamboa, you lived with Christian Bahena-Rivera for four years, isn't that right?
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Yes, about four years.
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And you were familiar with the type of vehicle he drove?
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Yes.
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And that was a black Chevy Malibu?
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Yes.
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And can you tell me again the date that you broke up with Christian Bahena-Rivera?
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April of 2017.
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After you broke up, you didn't have very much contact with him, is that correct?
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Whatever was related to our daughter, yes.
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And how often would that have been?
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Pretty often. I mean, throughout the week, he would text and ask about her. And on his days off, he would come for her.
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Do you recall speaking with the defendant then in August of 2018?
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Yes.
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And during one of those conversations, the defendant told you that he had contact with law enforcement?
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Yes.
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And that contact was regarding the disappearance of Molly Tibbetts, isn't that right?
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I believe so.
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And this was prior to his arrest, correct?
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Correct.
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And you talked to law enforcement at some point in time, isn't that right?
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Yes.
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Would that have been in August and September of 2018?
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I don't remember the exact date, but yes, around there.
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During those interviews with law enforcement, you were asked about the defendant.
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Yes.
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And you were asked about whether you were familiar with any mental health issues that he may have had.
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Tell me about all of those things that are you, that are Christian Bahena Rivera. And then they started to confront him with the evidence. They confronted him with this videotape. They confronted him with these pictures. And they said, you know, we don't believe you. We don't believe that you weren't there.
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Correct.
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And you stated that you weren't aware that he had any.
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Yes.
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And you stated in that interview you weren't aware of any periods where he claimed to have blacked out.
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Yes.
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And you stated in that interview that you weren't aware of any periods where the defendant had memory issues, correct? Correct. Thank you, Ms. Gamboa. I have no further questions for you.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Any redirect?
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No, Your Honor.
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The defense may call its next witness.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you. The defense calls Anna Young. Please state your full name.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
My name is Anna Young, and my last name is spelled Y-O-U-N-G. Where are you employed? I'm employed by the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation, Criminalistics Laboratory in Ankeny, Iowa.
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What are your official duties?
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I'm assigned to the Impression Evidence Section. The majority of what we do is latent print.
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I want to talk to you about this case. And specifically, you were submitted some items that were found in the back of a trunk of a black Malibu. Is that right?
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That's correct.
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Could you describe for the jury what you received from the black Malibu, the trunk specifically?
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I'm referring to the laboratory item 62, and within that laboratory item there were 14 items that I individualized as 62.1 through 62.14 that I then examined for latent prints. 62.1 was a red ice scraper, 62.2 was a clear storage box with fishing hooks, 62.3 was an empty Pepsi can. 62.4 was a pink child's ear exam toy. 62.5 were egg sinkers plastic bag.
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62.6 was snap-on floats bag with floats inside. 62.7 was a black plastic plug. 62.8 was a black piece of plastic tubing. 62.9 was a volleyball. 62.10 were Marlboro coupons. 62.11 was a gray plastic Walmart bag. 62.12 was a SpongeBob feed bag. 62.13 was a partial roll of wrapping paper. 62.14 was a black plastic vehicle part.
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What were you requested to do with those items that were found in this trunk?
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I was requested to process them for possible latent prints.
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Did you process each and every item?
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I did.
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Were you able to find any latent prints suitable for identification on any of those items? Yes I was. Which items were you able to find latent prints suitable for identification?
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62.1 and 62.2, which were the ice scraper and the fishing plastic box, respectively.
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Let's talk first about the ice scraper. You were able to develop how many latent prints?
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One.
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Did you analyze those prints? I did. So you found one latent print on the scraper, is that right? That's correct. And then you also found two latent prints on another item, is that correct? It's three. Three latent prints, okay. Where did you find those?
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and the confrontation continued until it was put in my client's head, perhaps he blacked out. The state in this case, they got what they wanted and they closed the case. They got what they needed. There was an intense amount of pressure, that's what the evidence has shown you, to close this case, to arrest someone for this vicious crime.
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The three latent prints were located on the fishing clear plastic box.
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After you've developed the latent prints, you then try to compare them with other prints known to the case or the system, is that right? That's correct. And in this case, did you do that? I did. Okay, what were your results? Let's first talk about the scraper.
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The scraper, the latent print was what I classified as an impression, which means I couldn't tell if it was from a finger or a palm print. and I wasn't able to make a conclusive same-source comparison in this case.
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What about the box 62.2?
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62.2a was also an impression, which means I couldn't determine whether or not it was a finger or a palm, and I was not able to make a same-source conclusion for that impression. 62.2 B and C were fingerprints, and I was able to say they were not made by the same source as the copies of finger impressions bearing the name Bessian Bahena Rivera.
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All right, so you're provided with Mr. Bahena Rivera's fingerprints, is that right? I was. And you compared those fingerprints to 62.2B and 62.2C. Is that right?
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I compared them to all four of them.
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But in reference to 62.2B and 62.2C, you were able to eliminate Kristen Bahena Rivera as a source of those prints. Is that correct? They were not made by the same source. No further questions. Thank you.
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Mr. Brown, you may cross-examine.
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Ms. Young, did you assist in attempting to obtain the fingerprints off of a body later known as Molly Tibbetts? I did. Describe for the jury what you did in an attempt to get identifiable fingerprints off of Molly Tibbetts' body.
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I proceeded to the medical examiner's office twice in an attempt to gain her, Miss Tibbetts' known fingerprints. Miss Tibbetts' remains were not in a condition where I was able to obtain any known prints from her.
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So you weren't ever able to get the known fingerprints of Molly Tibbetts, correct?
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I was not.
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And as far as you know, they did not exist anywhere in any system that you had access to to do any type of comparison. Would that be also true?
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Not to my knowledge.
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The two prints that were suitable for identification that you found on items in the trunk of the black Chevy Malibu were on fishing equipment. Would that be... A fair characterization?
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Three of them were on the plastic box that contained fishing equipment.
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Can you tell the jury when a fingerprint is placed upon any item?
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I cannot.
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And is it very possible that the prints that you identified on the plastic box could have been placed there weeks or even months before? They could. If there's an identifiable print on an object like the fishing box, how is that print, how would it be destroyed?
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It could be destroyed numerous ways. Repetitive touching is one, if someone picks up something the same way over and over again. If a surface is smeared or if it's been cleaned, if it's been left out in the elements, those are some variables that can go into whether or not it stays for a particular period of time.
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And if it's protected from those elements, how long can a fingerprint stay on any given item? Indefinitely. Indefinitely. And are you aware, Ms. Young, that Molly Tibbetts has been associated with the trunk of the black Malibu where the items that you tested came from?
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And instead of continuing to work the case, instead of continuing to work the evidence, they just submitted it to you. Now, the first witness that you will hear from today is a Dr. Michael Spence. He is a DNA expert. He used to work at the Indiana State Crime Lab. He's done consulting work and cancer research and other DNA evidence.
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I have, yes.
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Is it very possible, in your opinion, that Molly Tibbetts could have touched those things while in the trunk and you have nothing to compare it to? Is that possible?
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It's possible.
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That's all I have. Thank you. Any redirect?
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Yes, ma'am, it's also possible that another person could have touched that item in the trunk, isn't it? It's possible. Now the fingerprints that were submitted on behalf of Christian, Bahena, Rivera were not of good quality, is that correct? They were not complete known impressions.
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What do you mean by that? I mean that the entire portions of the palms and the fingers were not recorded adequately to make a determination as to whether or not they came from the same source.
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You noted in your report that clear and complete major case prints are necessary to complete the entire comparison. Isn't that right? That's correct. And so specifically, did you communicate with investigators saying if you had better prints, you might be able to get more information? I communicated through my report. Were any
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other fingerprint cards submitted in reference to Christian Bahena Rivera?
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No, they were not.
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Now, if further prints had been submitted, you would have compared those, isn't that right? That's correct. And so you could have further examined the evidence and looked at it to see if my client's prints matched those for identification, is that correct?
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I could have done additional comparisons.
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Along with that is if other fingerprints on behalf of other possible suspects were submitted, you could compare those for identification. Isn't that right?
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That's correct.
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But where we stand here, we don't know who made the prints that are in the trunk. Is that correct? That's correct. No further questions.
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Mr. Brown, anything else to this witness?
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No, your honor. Fence recalled Dalton Jack. Good afternoon, Mr. Jack. Good afternoon. You testified here a few days back, correct? Yes. Had a chance to reflect on that testimony?
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No.
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You haven't thought about what you had to say? No. I'm sorry, you had to speak up some. Oh, sorry, no. So there's nothing about your testimony here in open court the other day you wish to clarify, correct? No, I'm clarified. Mr. Jack, I want to expand on a few things we talked about the other day. Is that okay with you? Yes.
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The first thing I want to talk about, Mr. Jack, is Molly Tibbetts herself. Tell me first, if you would, describe in your own words Molly Tibbetts. She was a happy, bubbly, goofy person that just everybody kind of got along with. I'm sorry I didn't hear that last part. Everybody got along with her? Everybody got along with her? Yeah, for the most part, yeah. She was kind? Yes.
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Kind to everybody she met? Yes. Did you know her to have an enemy? No. Did you know her to have any confrontations with anyone? No. How about strangers? How does she treat people she never met before? She was nice to strangers. You've had a long time to think about this and think about Molly's loss of life. Can you think of anyone who would have wanted to visit her any harm?
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No.
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Would you agree with me that she was the kind of person who always put a best face on for others? Absolutely, yes. She always wanted to make those around her feel better, right? Yes. And she always wanted to appear happy, right? Yes. If somebody needed a hand, she was always there to offer it? Yes. Whether she knew you or didn't know you, she was always willing to help, right? Yes.
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Describe Molly's physical stature. I mean, she was small, right? Yeah, she was a very small individual. Okay, when you say very small, I mean, how tall was she? 5'2", 5'3". And do you know her weight? 130-ish pounds. Okay, so she was a small woman, small framed. Yes. Was she the kind of person who, though, if she were attacked, would be one to fight back? I mean, anybody would, but yeah.
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She was spunky? Yeah. Okay. Now, again, you can't think of anybody in this world who would want to visit harm upon this particular individual, right? No, sir. And... Do you know her as well as anyone in your opinion?
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And what he will tell you is that in that trunk liner, Molly Tibbetts' DNA was found. But he will also tell you that there were other contributors, that there were other sources, and that because only Christian Bahena-Rivera's DNA was provided and Molly Tibbetts' DNA was provided, because no other DNA was provided, those alleles, those DNA profiles, are unaccounted for. We do not know.
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Yeah.
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Okay. When she would go jogging, did anyone ever stop and just talk to her? Not that she'd ever mentioned before. Okay. Well, if someone was stopping to talk to her when she was out on a jog around Brooklyn, is she the kind of person who would have a conversation with someone? She would talk to him, yeah. Whether she knew him or not? Yeah, most likely.
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Would that even translate to someone out on a country road? I would imagine so, yes. So if someone comes up to her on a country road and wants to talk to her, she's the kind of person that would strike up a conversation? She wouldn't strike up the conversation, but, yeah, she would have a conversation with that person. Okay.
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So knowing what you know about Molly Tibbetts, if she were out on a country road jogging and someone comes up and talks to her, she's the kind of person who would stop and have a conversation with that person? She would stop and say at least hello. Yes. She wouldn't immediately get scared or angry, would she? No. She wouldn't immediately get confrontational, would she?
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Not.
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Sustained. Based upon your experience in knowing Molly, do you think she would be the kind of person that would do that? She wouldn't. Same objection. Same question. Overruled, the witness may answer if he knows. She wouldn't do any of that unless she was provoked to. Okay. And how long did you know Molly before she disappeared?
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We had been dating for three years, but we went to a very small school, so we'd known each other, or at least of each other, for a very long time. What was a very long time, Mr. Jack? I believe she moved from California to Brooklyn in the fourth grade, and I was a year older than her, so since the fifth, we would have known of each other.
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Okay, so fourth grade is, help me here, nine years old? I don't know either, I'm gonna be real. You knew her for probably at least 10 years, right? Yes. And she didn't become this nice, happy person overnight, did she? No. She was always this way, am I right? For as long as I can remember, yes.
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And you said she wouldn't do this as far as getting angry unless she was provoked, is that, is my understanding correct? Yes. In the 10 years you knew her, tell me how many times you saw her get provoked?
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I mean, so I'd like to reframe and say that I didn't, you know, hang out with her very often or know her that well outside of the three years that we dated. So I can't speak on those seven years, but one of those three years that we were together, not very often.
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Less than five? I'd say that's fair, yeah. Zero probably. Yeah. No one ever provoked Molly.
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He's already asked and answered the question.
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Overruled the... The witness can answer and then we'll move on.
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No one ever provoked Molly in the three years you were together, right? I mean, not to my knowledge, I guess. She was one who liked to de-escalate situations, didn't she?
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I don't object again. This is ask and answer, same ground we're plowing again.
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The question's not been asked and answered, so it's over. We'll go ahead and answer if you notice something. I'm sorry, can you repeat the question?
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Can you read it back, please?
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She was one who liked to de-escalate situations, didn't she?
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Yes, I would say so.
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In your relationship with Molly, like any relationship, there's usually one personality who's a little stronger than the other personality. Would you agree that that was kind of your relationship with Molly? I guess so, yeah. Would you describe yourself as the stronger personality or the weaker personality? In terms of what? Would you get angry more than Molly? Yeah.
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And how would Molly respond to you those times that she would get angry? You would get angry, I'm sorry. I mean, she would try to calm me down, that's for sure. Sure. And that was her nature, right? Yes. Even when you had done something that clearly was wrong to her, she always took the high road. Is that a fair statement? I don't remember any instances when that was the case, but yeah. Okay.
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And we'll talk about those in a bit. Now, it's your testimony, Mr. Jack. that you had nothing to do with Molly Tibbetts' abduction. Is that what I am to understand? Yes. You had nothing to do with Molly Tibbetts' death, right? Correct.
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You loved her too much, is that right? That and I wouldn't harm her or any innocent person, but yes. You two were going to get married, is that right? Yes. Did she know this? Yeah. Okay, what were the plans? Plans were my brother's wedding was to be in Punta Cana about... I don't remember the exact date, but it was August. We had already gotten passports and everything to go down there.
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And, like, I was going to propose on the beach down while at Blake's wedding. So, did Molly know you were going to propose on the beach? Yeah, I kind of jumped the gun on that one in bed and I just, like, spilled the beans. To Molly? Yes. And when and where did you spill the beans? I mean, in my bed at Blake's house. When? I don't remember the exact time, but it was...
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shortly after they had made the plans to do the wedding down in Putakana.
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Okay. And when were the plans made for the wedding in Putakana with Blake and Allie?
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That was Blake and Allie's wedding plans in general. They were doing a destination wedding, and the whole family was going down there to watch them get married.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sure, sure, sure. What I'm trying to figure out is when were the plans made by you to – proposed to Molly on the beach and you spilled the beans. Was it a year before Molly's death? Was it two years before Molly's death?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Oh, I'm sorry, sir. I don't know the exact timeline on that. It wasn't, it was not very, it wasn't, it was probably under a year. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And Molly said yes? Yes. You bought her a ring? Yes. An engagement ring? Yeah. And where'd you buy it? K Jewelers. Okay. And was she wearing it? No. Where were you keeping it? At the house. Okay. What did you pay for it?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
$2,500-ish. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you'll agree with me that during that year between when the beans were spilled and Molly disappeared, you and Molly's relationship went up and down several times, right? Correct, yes. You guys talked about breaking up a number of times, right? Correct, yes. And the most recent time you talked about breaking up was the end of June, one month before she disappeared, right?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You will also hear from different witnesses that knew my client. You will hear about his family. You will hear about his life. You will hear about his routine. You've heard Mr. Freeze talk about different suspects. You've heard Mr. Freeze talk about different evidence that was ignored or not looked at.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't recall, but if that's on a record somewhere, then I would agree, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. How many television interviews did you give after Molly's disappearance, Mr. Jack?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't know if Jack's irrelevant.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled at this time, we'll see.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't have an answer to that. It was a lot. I didn't keep count. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When's the last time you talked to Jordan Lamb? In terms of, like,
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
talk? No, she messaged me about coming here to testify. That would be the last time that I talked to her. How'd she message you? Over Snapchat. She called you over Snapchat? Yes. And you two talked about your testimony? No, she just asked me why she was having to come here. That's about it.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The defense position is an interesting one because a lot of times you sat through jury selection and it was made a point several times that it's the job of the state to prove Oftentimes, you won't hear any evidence from the defense whatsoever. Oftentimes, the defense will just rely on the inconsistencies or the failure to investigate of the state. But that's not what we will do here.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Now, Snapchat, you can call people like a telephone on Snapchat, right? Yeah, that was news to me too. I didn't know that. Okay, so when you used Snapchat, you always did the like texting thing, right? Yeah. Never used it like a phone?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, last week when you were here, you gave some testimony about after Molly disappeared and you realized that she was truly missing. Do you recall that testimony?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry, can you repeat the question? Sure.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Last week when you were here testifying and you realized, truly realized, that she was missing, you took some action. Do you recall that testimony?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I remember what I did whenever that happened, yes. Sure, sure. What did you do? I immediately started making phone calls and getting people to try to check on her. Did you try to call Molly? Yes. How many times did you try to call Molly? I don't know. I don't have an exact number for that, I'm sorry. Well, guess for me. I guess would be completely inaccurate, but I'll give you maybe 10.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is it possible you only called Molly one time? Sure, yes. So, how many times did you text her? I also don't have a number for you on that one. So, if the records show you only called her one time, those would be the accurate. Those would be the accurate number? Absolutely, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Explain to me why you only tried to call your girlfriend who was missing one time in the days following her disappearance. I don't know. I tried to get other people to look for her as well.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She's the love of your life, right? Yes. And you're not blowing up her phone? I don't know if I did or not, but I don't know why I would only call her one time.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, if I showed you your phone records, would it refresh your recollection? Question or approach? July 15, 2018 through July 19, 2018. Go ahead and take a look at those. Mr. Jack, in your phone, you had a contact for Molly, right? Yep. And what did you call her? Baby girl. So anytime you would call her or she would call you, it would come up as baby girl. Correct. So your phone records...
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If they dumped your phone, we should look for an outgoing call or an incoming call from baby girl. Yes. And like when you're calling your dad, it says dad, right? Yes. Mom says mom, right? Yes. Okay. And you don't use your phone that much as a phone, do you? What do you mean? You're more of a texter. Yeah. I mean, not anymore, but yeah. Okay. So, with that...
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And I placed a document in front of you to refresh your recollection, Mr. Jack. You see that document? Yes. Are you able to read that document?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The format's kind of weird, but I think I can piece it together for you, yeah.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, if you can piece it together for me. That's a phone record, correct?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it is our job, it's our obligation to Mr. Bahena to bring forth to you anything that can cast doubt on the state's evidence. It's our obligation. to you, to Mr. Bahena, to fairly, if we can, provide you with the evidence that does not support
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Shows the dates of 7-15-2018 through 7-19-2018, correct?
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I'm going to object to this witness using this as a reference.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He's not an expert with regard to phone records. I'm not sure this, if he's going to refresh his memory, then he should allow it to refresh his memory instead of putting in what's in the document through testimony of a witness who clearly did not create it.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Are you trying to refresh his memory?
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Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, we'll proceed that way then.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It refreshes your recollection, Mr. Jack? Yes. Has it done so? Sure, yes. Having your recollection refreshed, now tell the jury how many times the name Baby Girl shows up on here? It was highlighted once and checkmarked once. You recall your testimony the other day about Jordan Lamb? Yes. You told Mr. Brown. That the relationship with Jordan Lamb was like a one-day thing, right? Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's not true, is it? What do you mean by that? You had more than one relationship, more than one time having a relationship with Jordan Lamb, right? Not to my recollection, by any means. Do you recall having conversations with Molly going back to early 2017 where she was angry with Jordan? Yes. And why was that?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why was she angry with Jordan?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't know. Actually, I even object to that on other grounds. He cannot speculate as to what Molly Tibbetts may have thought. That's what he's asking this young man. We would object on speculation.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's a different objection, and that objection I'll sustain.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What you do acknowledge is that Molly was upset with Jordan in as early as January of 2017. Same objection.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Given how the question is phrased, I'm going to overrule it, and again, the witness can answer if he knows. I don't know.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In April of 2017, Molly was happy that you deleted Jordan off Snapchat. Do you recall that? No. You don't? Do you recall having a telephone or a text conversation with Molly in April, specifically April 6, 2017, where Molly said to you that she was definitely glad you deleted Jordan off Snapchat?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I do. The calls for hearsay, it's also not relevant.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I do not remember that, sir.
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I showed you a record of that conversation where it refreshed your recollection? Yes. Mr. Jack, is your recollection refreshed now? Yes. Molly said that to you?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's on a record for a text, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And does it refresh your recollection at all as to why she was upset? She didn't seem upset in that text chain. Do you know why she said she was definitely glad you deleted Jordan on Snapchat?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was going to be in calls for speculation.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained. Tell the jury how you responded to that comment.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Molly said that she was glad that she deleted me off Snapchat because Jordan was wearing apparently a skimpy outfit and put on her story and that Molly didn't want me seeing that. And then I responded with she a ho and then the conversation then went from there.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You said she a hoe, right? That is the exact verbiage that I just read on that sheet, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What does that mean?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I think that was just a slang term, I guess. I don't know how to put that. I don't understand. Saying that she was immorally and straight, I guess. An immoral woman? Sure.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was it a flattering comment?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was not a flattering comment, no.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it's your testimony that... She wasn't upset about the relationship between you and Jordan at this point.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
a conviction each one of you is an intricate person with very different backgrounds each one of you you don't leave your common sense at the door has a different story each one of you have different ways to look at the evidence and what we ask you to do is to listen to our case fairly to pay attention and to remember that each one of you have the power to say no. Thank you.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection, Judge. Calls for speculation.
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Sustained. Do you recall buying Molly a promise ring in May of 2017? Yes. Do you recall Molly taking off that promise ring in June of 2017? Yes, I do. Why did she take it off?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objections. Calls for speculation.
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Sustained. Do you know why Molly took it off? Different question.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And different ruling, witness may answer if he knows.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry, can you repeat the question? Do you know why she took it off? Why she took off the promise ring? Yes. Because of the relationship with Jordan. What relationship with Jordan? The one that had been previously stated of our affair, I guess you would call it.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you had a relationship with Jordan pre-June 2017. Objections?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Asked and answered.
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Overall, don't let the witness answer.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry, can you repeat the question again?
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Prior to June 2017, you had the sexual relationship with Jordan Lamb. Not sexual, no. Okay, so Molly takes off the ring because of what relationship then with Jordan? There was like a texting, I guess, relationship.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Tell us more about that. I don't remember like the semantics of it, but we talked back and forth. What about?
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Anything, I guess. What's anything? I mean, obviously it made Molly upset enough to take off her promise ring. Overruled.
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The witness may answer if he knows. I would love to give you an answer, sir, but I don't know.
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You don't recall?
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Don't recall.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So, when I asked you earlier about Molly's issues with Jordan and you maybe having a relationship of some sort with Jordan going back to 2017, is your recollection refreshed now?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't remember any other than, like, the one-time physical relationship with Jordan. I don't remember any other time that that happened.
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Well, you were texting her in 2017, right? Yes. And then in 2018, before Molly goes to California, you start texting her or Snapchatting her again, right? Yes. Yes. And that's when it got physical, right? Yes. You had sex with her in 2018 right before Molly went to California, right? I don't know. Okay. Is it possible you had sex with her before then? Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So this whole Jordan thing has been going on for a year, right?
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I object to the form of questions and mischaracterize what the witness has said so far with regard to his relationship with Jordan Lamb.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, I... I think the point is well taken. I'm going to sustain it, and Mr. Fries, if you want to attempt to rephrase it, that's fine.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So we know in 2017, Molly's upset with you because you're having some sort of relationship, whether it's texting or whatever with Jordan. And we know it happens again in 2018.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
right i'm sorry can you repeat the question i couldn't hear you can you read it back we know in 2017 molly is upset with you because you're having some sort of relationship whether it is texting or whatever and we know it happens again in 2018 right
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. So between June of 2017, when Molly takes the promise ring off, tell us what the promise ring signifies.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The promise ring signifies, like, it's not an engagement ring. It's like a precursor to an engagement ring, I guess, if that makes sense.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You promised yourself to her.
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Yes.
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You gave her this ring and said... I'm yours and yours only, right? Yes. You gave her an oath of fidelity, right? Yes. And then a month later she finds out you weren't living up to that oath, right? Yes. Okay. Between the time she took her promise ring off and then following spring when she goes to California, you and Jordan continued to have some sort of relationship, didn't you? I don't know.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You're telling me you didn't text her or Snapchat her or nothing like that? Not that I can recall at all. But you certainly did in April of 2018. You tried to strike up a new relationship with her, didn't you? Not that I can recall on that either. Well, in April of 2018, you and Molly had a text conversation where she got upset because Jordan screenshot something from her Snapchat story, right?
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Not that I recall, but I believe it, yeah. You don't recall having a conversation with Molly where she asked you, yo, why did she screenshot this? No. You don't recall Molly saying to you she was about to get confrontational? No, I don't remember that either. I showed you a record of that conversation. Would it refresh your recollection? Yes. Is that refreshed recollection?
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Yes.
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Having your recollection refreshed, do you now recall having a conversation on April 8th, 2018, with Molly about Jordan snapshotting or screenshotting a Snapchat? I still don't remember the conversation in full, but yeah, I remember that happening. And that conversation was about Jordan, right? Yes. And... You told Molly that Jordan was crazy, right?
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Yes. Object his irrelevance as well as hearsay on all of this.
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Overruled. Witness may answer.
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I'm sorry, can you repeat that question?
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You told Molly that Jordan was crazy, right?
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I don't know. I only read that front page, sir. I'm sorry. I didn't know that. Should I show you the second page, would it help you? I'm not trying to cause problems up here, I'm sorry.
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Is your reflection refreshed?
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Yep. Sorry, yes.
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Now was my recitation of what this conversation was about wrong?
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No.
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So she was confronting you about Jordan screenshotting something, right? Yes. And correct me if I'm wrong, you had deleted Jordan off your Snapchat. Before, right? Yes. Now, tell us how Snapchat works. For someone to see you on Snapchat, you have to add them, right?
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The defense may call their first witness. Thank you.
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That was through Molly's Snapchat. She Snapchatted Molly's story, not mine.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you hadn't added her through Snapchat? Not that I can recall, no. Okay, because I'm looking at a comment here from you that says, she added me again and snapped me some rude-ass shit about me.
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We call Dr. Spence. Please state your name for the court.
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I'm sorry, what? I object to reading in contents of the record as improper as hearsay.
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Sustained. Jack, I want you to read the first highlighted portion. Does that refresh your recollection? I suppose so. Well, yes or no? Yes. Snapchat works where someone can only communicate with you if you add them, right? Yes. And to add them, that takes an affirmative action by you, right? Yes. And you told Molly that she added you and therefore you added her back, right?
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My name is Dr. Michael J. Spence, S-P-E-N-C-E.
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You don't have to be able to send messages.
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But you were communicating with her, weren't you? From the context of that text message, it sounded like she was just communicating with me. Okay.
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Well, the next day, Jordan was communicating with Molly, wasn't she?
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I don't recall, but... For clarification, what's the date that we're talking about here again? I would object on that basis.
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Well, I guess then I'll sustain the objection and Mr. Fries, you can proceed at this point in time, but we need a date, some reference point that we're talking about.
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What we've asked you to do is to take a look at the DNA analysis and get kind of a second opinion. Is that right?
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I had said April 8th, so now we're talking about April 9th. Molly and Jordan had talked, right?
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I don't recall.
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You don't recall Jordan sending copies of messages to Molly? No. You don't recall Molly busting you with Snapchat messages between you and Jordan? Sustained. You don't recall Molly confronting you with messages? sent to her by Jordan Lamb of you and her talking? I don't recall that, no. Do you deny sending messages to Jordan Lamb while Molly was leaving for California in 2018? No, I don't.
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So you admit that you were having a text message or a Snapchat conversation with Jordan Lamb? In March and April 2018. I don't recall it, so I'm not going to admit it, but I'm not going to deny it either. But on April 8, 2018, having your recollection refreshed, you didn't just come clean to Molly and say, I've been talking to Jordan, did you? Probably did not.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you recall talking to Agent Matt George on July 27th? That name doesn't ring a bell, no. Do you recall talking to DCI agents? Yes, I talked to a lot of them. Do you recall talking to the one who interviewed you last? No. Do you recall meeting with a DCI agent and them saying you didn't come forward to us originally with information about Jordan Lamb? Objection, spouse, for hearsay. Sustained.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained. Do you recall having a conversation with Agent Matt George on July 27, 2018? No. Do you recall telling him that you just came clean about Jordan Lamb right away to Molly? Overruled. No, I don't. Okay, so if he testifies to that, his recollection would probably be more clear than yours, wouldn't it?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When were you first contacted to look at Christian Bahena Rivera's case?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objections calls for speculation as to what somebody else may have thought.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained. April 9th, 2018, you and Molly, you don't recall having a conversation with her about Jordan Lamb? No, sir. You don't recall her asking if you wanted to be with Jordan over her?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, sir. Everybody objects. Calls for review.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled. Go ahead. If I showed you a record, that would refresh your recollection? We'll find out, yes. A simple yes will do. Okay. Mr. Jack, does that document refresh your recollection?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That one does not refresh my recollection. I still don't remember any of that, but I clearly said or did it. Said or did what? I mean, that's my phone number on that page, and that's her phone number on that page, so that conversation is between us. But you don't remember it?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That would be beginning of October of 2019.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I don't remember it. Did you black it out? I just don't remember it. This is a day after the Jordan Lamb discussion, right? Yes, I believe that's what their date is. Was she wearing her promise ring at this time? I don't remember that either. Remember the other day we talked about whether or not you were known to get angry and fight, right? Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, whoever did this to Molly committed a very violent crime. Can we agree on that? Yes. And would you agree with me that the person that committed it was very angry? I don't know the mindset of the person that did it, but... Anger could be one of those mindsets, couldn't it? Yes. In the 12 months before Molly disappeared, did you ever tell her that you realized you were clinically insane?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What did you review in looking at his case?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I have.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's not relevant. I'm not sure there's a time frame that's on it. If he did put one on it, I don't think it's relevant.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You referenced within the last year, correct? I did. Okay, objections overruled.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't remember that at all either. Well, let's just pick this date. October 31, 2017. Did you mention to Molly that you have a temper? I don't remember. Did you on October 31 mention to Molly that a person can't tell until you see it in action?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I reviewed case reports involved in this instance. There were four of them.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I think I'm on Jack's cause for hearsay, whether it's Dalton's statement or somebody else's.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained. Did you and Molly have a conversation that included those comments? I don't remember. Seeing a document that said that refresh your recollection? Yes. While we're looking for that, let's move on, Mr. Jack. You recall in October 30, 2017, you and Molly's relationship kind of hit a real bump, didn't it?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't recall that either.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's when she told you she was moving in with friends? Then, yeah, I remember. That upset you?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You told her you were angry about that.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She was ditching you.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's the term you used, right? Yes. And in that date you told her you were thinking about breaking up during college, right?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, when DNA evidence is submitted, how do you find a match or, you know, compare it with someone's known DNA?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't recall that at all.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I want you to show this document and have you look at it, going back to the temper thing. I don't know if it refreshes your recollection, Mr. Jack. Judge, prior to doing that, can we get a date?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And time on this particular document he's showing him?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
October 31, 2017. Thank you. Does that document refresh your recollection?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I do not remember the context in which that was said at all, sir. Okay. Does it refresh your recollection? What is that? No.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You don't recall telling Molly that you had a temper? No. You don't recall saying that's what makes you dangerous? No. But the record says that. Do you deny the accuracy of the record? No. Do you deny it? We need to take a break. Mr. Fries, you may continue.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Jack, the other day you made an answer to a question posed by Mr. Brown, and your answer was you wholeheartedly think that my client's guilty, right?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So I'm going to object, actually.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's not in the purview of this witness, not Roland.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, the answer's already been given, so I think the objection is untimely, given that we already have the answer in the record. So we can proceed. Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And do you know Iris Gamboa? I graduated with her, yes. How well do you know Iris? Not very well. She testified here today that she said you're a racist. You share that opinion?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, within these reports, they're reporting documents, probably the key documents within there, are something called electropherograms. I'll call them egrams to make it easier on everybody. These egrams are just the actual data output from each of the evidence items.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You don't hold any anti-Mexican opinions? No. Have you ever used derogatory language toward Hispanics?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not that I can remember, no.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Have you ever used the term fucking dipshit Mexicans? He's denied any comments. Sustained. If I showed you a document, phone records from October 26, 2017, would that refresh your recollection?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't object on the same grounds if that's what content of this is.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Fries, not knowing what you're wanting to refresh him on, I would just ask you to keep in mind the court's previous ruling. And if you're going down that road, it's going to be the same ruling. Yes, of course. I'm somewhat vague on the court's statement there. Okay. Do you need the previous question and ruling read back to you? Can we approach? Sure.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Go ahead, Mr. Friess. Thank you. Now, Mr. Jack, you recall on July 6, 2018, 12 days prior to Molly's disappearance, having a conversation with her via text message indicating to her that you were madder than fuck for no reason?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you not recall that conversation?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I showed you a text message report of that. Would it refresh your recollection?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. Judge, I'm not going to object on the basis of relevance.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled, go ahead. Does that refresh your recollection?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I still don't remember the conversation, no. You're a smart guy, right? I'm not going to stroke my own ego here, but sure.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And some of the interviews said to agents that you had your college paid for because your ACT scores were so high, right? Yes. How high were they? Sustained. Is there anything wrong with your memory organically? No. You don't have any illness? I've had multiple concussions. Okay. Is that affecting your memory, do you think? I don't know. No. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Has any doctor diagnosed you with any reason that you can't recall things? No. Do you recall the Snapchat message conversation with Jordan Lamb where you told her you wanted to get with her? No, I do not. You don't recall saying to Jordan Lamb that if you do get together with her that you had to be quiet because you weren't going to jail because she was under 18?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I've got to object.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There's no time frame that's put on this that's not relevant at this point.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I will sustain that, Mr. Fries, and, again, we need some more context to go forward.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I mentioned there's 26 evidence items, but you also have references from, in this case, a couple of known individuals, and you do comparisons of what's on the egrams from those and deduce, for example, when there's mixtures of DNA, whether a person's DNA is within that mixture or not.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In March of or April of 2018, You don't recall having a Snapchat conversation with Jordan Lamb wherein you said... I'm not objecting to reading it into the record.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's hearsay. If he wants to refresh his memory or ask me to have a conversation with him, that's fine. But reading it into the record in front of the jury is improper. First of all, Your Honor, I'm not reading anything into a jury.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The prosecutor got up and told you that this case is about Molly Tibbetts. And this case is about Molly Tibbetts. You all sat through some very disturbing pictures, some very disturbing testimony. You saw her body. should break for Molly Tibbetts. Your heart should break for her family. Molly Tibbetts deserves justice, her family deserves justice, but so does Christian Fajana Rivera.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm asking a question. With that then, Mr. Brown's point is well taken, but I did not think or see that you were reading, so with that you may proceed.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you recall a text message conversation where you sent, actually a Snapchat conversation, where you sent a message to the effect of you weren't going to jail if you and Jordan got back together because she was under 18 and her parents hated you?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I still do not recall that, no. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You would agree with me that those records exist, they speak for themselves?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And if the record exists, that would be a more accurate recitation than your memory? Yes. Do you ever tell anybody you black out when you get angry?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objections is asked and answered prior to the break.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled. I'm sorry, can you repeat the question? Have you ever told anyone at any time on this planet That you black out when you get angry? Don't recall. If there's a record that says that, would you agree with me that that record is more accurate than your recollection? Absolutely, yes. You may have answered this before, and I do apologize. Ulysses Felix, you knew him, right? Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Agents, when they were questioning you, asked you about a $200 cash withdrawal Molly took out the night before she disappeared. Do you recall that? Overruled. Do you recall that? I do not recall that. Do you recall Molly purchasing a mattress within a couple days before she disappeared?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I don't. You don't recall giving Molly the information for the mattress guy in Grinnell a couple days before she disappeared? No, I don't. You don't recall Shane Slaymaker giving you the information for the mattress guy so Molly could buy a mattress? No, I do not. And again, if there's records on that, those would be more accurate than your recollection?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Absolutely, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you recall telling agents that you thought the $200 was for your golf tournament that Molly would have put up the greens fees for? I also do not recall that, no. But you recall you were in Dubuque on that night, right? Yes. Clear as a bell? Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you drunk? I don't recall that either, but I would imagine that I was drinking, yes, sir. Okay. That's all I have.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In this case, what known DNA samples were submitted, sir?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brown, questions of this witness? Let's talk about your job. that Mr. Freeze just raised, okay? Okay. Where were you working? Dubuque. Okay, what company were you working for?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was working for Jasper Construction.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what job did you do for Jasper Construction? We worked on roads and bridges, but I was a laborer. Okay, full-time job?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you work long days?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sometimes 12-hour days, correct? Yes. A lot of those jobs for Jasper Construction were away from Brooklyn. Is that right?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. This particular week that you were working for Jasper Construction, the week that would include Wednesday, July 18th of 2018, where was the job specifically? In Dubuque. And even more specifically than Dubuque, where at near Dubuque were you working? I don't remember the name of the highway, but it was the bridge that goes over the Mississippi River to Wisconsin. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There were only two that were used for those comparative purposes, and those would be the victim, Ms. Tibbetts, and the defendant, Mr. Baena.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You left for that job on Monday, July 16th. Is that right? Yes. And you would have driven there in your pickup truck?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that the only vehicle that you utilized at that time?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Was it a truck that you were making payments on? Yes, it was. And... That's why you were working is to pay your bills, right, Mr. Jack?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You tried college for a year and decided that wasn't for you? Correct, yes. Right, and so now you were working full-time for Jasper Construction as a road construction crew member? Yes. Nick Wilson was your supervisor? Yes. Is that somebody that you got along with? Yeah, me and Nick got along great. Okay.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The crew that was working in Dubuque on the week that would include Wednesday, July 18th of 2018, there were five members of that crew plus Nick. Would that be true? Yes. And there was a second crew that had been assigned to work this same bridge area with you and your crew that week. Is that right? Yes. Would Nick Wilson have been the job foreman or crew foreman for that group?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
crew as well or do you know no that one was under a different supervisor so two different supervisors were with you in dubuque both that work for jasper construction is that right as well as two separate crews that had been assigned to work in dubuque for that particular week that included july 18th of 2018. yes whenever you typically went on jobs like this would you stay overnight in a motel yes we would
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There were some other samples were submitted when Ms. Tibbetts was still missing to try to develop a DNA profile. Is that right?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And was this particular trip to Dubuque on July 18th of 2018, was it any different than any other trip? No, it was not. Did you see Molly Tibbetts prior to leaving for the job on early Monday of July 16th of 2018? Well, we slept in the same bed, so yeah, when I got up. She was staying with you and Blake and Allie at 622 West Des Moines in Brooklyn? Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Just as a refresher, you had two dogs that were there?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And was she house-sitting as well as taking care of the dogs while both you and Blake were away working? Yes. Blake was a construction worker also, is that right? Correct, yes. He was working in where, in Newton that week? Or do you even remember? I don't remember where he was working, no. Allie, it was his fiancée at the time, correct? Allie Houghton? Yes. So whenever you left Brooklyn...
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To go to your job working for Jasper on July 16th of 2018, you left Molly. Yes. And that was the last time that you would have been in her presence prior to her death. Is that true? Correct, yes. Drove your pickup to Dubuque? Yes. How long did it take you to get from Brooklyn to the job site at the river? Over two hours. Okay. And was it closer to maybe two and a half hours to the job site?
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That's correct.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And explain that just briefly for the jury.
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I suppose so, yes. Okay. You didn't keep track of your time, is that right? I didn't keep track of the time. The supervisor, Nick Wilson, kept track of the time. Okay. That's a good point. Nick Wilson would keep your hours that you worked, is that correct? Yes. He would log them in, is that right? Yes. There was no way for you to do that on your own? No.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, in some instances where we have a body that's been found, there might be difficulties in getting a good DNA profile from that person. or verifying that that is the right person. So you can take family members and do comparisons to family members to confirm that they're related and that you're not misidentifying anybody or you're not getting any of the genetic information wrong.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And was there another man that went with you on July 16, 2018, going to Dubuque to work on this job site? Yes. And who was that? Luis. I don't remember his last name. Was Luis someone that worked with you at Jasper? Yes. Other than the job at Dubuque? Yes. And he needed a ride? Yeah, he just needed a ride up. And you gave it to him, right?
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Yeah.
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At any time, Mr. Jack, prior to Thursday afternoon, did you leave and go back to Brooklyn, Iowa? No. Were you ever in the presence of Molly Tibbetts after early Monday morning, July 16th of 2018? No. No. Directing your attention to when July 18 of 2018, I believe you previously testified that you had worked the whole day. Is that right? Correct, yes. Would that be from 6 a.m. to about 6 p.m.?
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Around about, yes.
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Okay. And other people on the job site, including Nick Wilson, you would have been around them that entire day. Is that right? Yes. And you did have some communication with Molly that you testified to earlier. Is that correct? Yes. All right. After the day ended, after the work day ended, did you go back to the motel? Yes. Did you shower up or clean up in any way? Yes. All right.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So whenever you got back to the motel that night, regardless of what you did, you were around other people on your crew? Yes. Is that right? Yes. At the hotel? Yes. And it included Nick Wilson, at least for part of the evening? Yes. On the evening of July 18th of 2018, did you drive back to Brooklyn, Iowa? Was July 18th a Wednesday? Wednesday, correct. Oh, sorry. No, I did not. All right.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That was the day you worked a full day. Is that right? Yes. Okay. The next day, Thursday, July 19th of 2018... You had weather problems, is that correct? Yes. So when you're on a road crew, weather problems stop the job, is that right? Yes. So you go back to the hotel that you were staying at, is that correct? Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you made some attempts to reach Molly Tibbetts on July 19th of 2018, is that right? Yes. And were those successful? No. You've talked about one text message, I think, or maybe phone call, I can't remember, where
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
there was one of those is that correct yes and did you try to did you make any attempts to reach her in any other way by calling her friends or calling other people that knew her yes i did all right so like somebody like emily fenner do you know that person yes that's a friend of molly's is that right yes she talked to emily fenner yes you were trying to find molly is that right yes did you start to become worried yes i did and then did that cause you to want to come home
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. And did you express that worry to Nick Wilson or anyone else on the crew that you were working on? Yes, I did. So was it to Nick?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because that's the guy who's going to let you come home, right? Nick is going to be the one to let you... leave early? Yeah. Nick was the boss. Okay. So you were supposed to work on Friday. Yes. Right. And then you came home because you couldn't get ahold of Molly. Correct. And you got home sometime that night. Is that right? Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Discussed a lot with Mr. Freeze about this relationship that you had with Jordan. Yes. Molly was aware of the relationship, is that correct? Yes, she was. And despite knowing about it, your relationship with her continued. Yes. And you were still making plans to propose marriage to her in August of 2018 in the Dominican Republic at your brother's wedding. Yes, I was.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that was done in this case.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That wedding never happened, did it? No, it did not. Because Molly had disappeared, is that right? Yes. So it got canceled? Yes, Blake and Ellie canceled their wedding. Mr. Jack, the truck that you drove, you allowed police to search, is that correct? Yes, I did. You took it to the Brooklyn Fire Department, is that right? Yes. And you just handed it over to them? Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When it comes to examining the results within Iowa DCI reports and checking their conclusions against all supporting documents, isn't it true that one thing that you are looking for is problems?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you stay there while they searched it? No, I did not. You left it there for a period of time? Yes. Did you make any effort to try to do anything to the truck to alter it in any way? No, I did not. Did you ever try to prevent the officers from searching in any particular locations in the truck? No, I did not. Molly had actually ridden in that truck before, is that right? Many times, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She'd ridden in the cab of that truck with you? Yes. But you made no effort to conceal anything from the officers, is that right? No, I did not. You were cooperative? Yes. Do you own a black Malibu? No, I do not. Do you have access to a black Malibu? No, I do not. How about a black Malibu with a chromed mirror and chromed handles? No, I do not.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How about a black Malibu with chrome mirror, chrome handles, and spoked wheels?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection asked and answered.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Technically, that question has not been asked and answered, so the witness can go ahead and answer.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can you repeat the question? I'm sorry.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you own or have access to a black Malibu that has chrome mirrors, chrome handles, or spoked wheels? No, I do not. Was your vehicle seen in the area where Molly Tibbetts was running on July 18th of 2018, to your knowledge?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection. Call for speculation.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To his knowledge, Judge.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled then?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No. Have you ever admitted that you were in Brooklyn, Iowa on July 18th of 2018 near where Molly Tibbetts was observed running? No, I have not. Have you ever made any statements, Mr. Jack, placing you on 385th Avenue east of Brooklyn on July 18th of 2018 in the evening hours? No, I have not. You are now aware that Molly Tibbetts was killed. Is that right? Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You are now aware that her body was found in a cornfield at 2478 460th Avenue. Is that correct? Yes. Did you take officers to that location to find Molly Tibbetts? No, I did not. Did you place corn stalks on her body in order to conceal her from anyone that may be looking? No, I did not. Mr. Jack, did you have anything at all to do with the disappearance or murder of Molly Tibbetts? No.
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Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And in this case, did you find any problems with the analyzing of the evidence?
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That's all I have.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Friess.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Molly didn't know that you and Jordan had sex, did she? Objections calls for speculation.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled witness may answer if he knows.
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Yes, she definitely did.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you recall telling agents When you were interviewed that Molly didn't know that you and Jordan had sex? No. Do you recall telling agents that if Molly would have found out that you and Jordan had sex, she definitely would have broken up with you?
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No.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If there's a recording to that effect, that would be the best evidence of that comment? Yes. Nick Wilson's your supervisor, right? Correct, yes. Nick Wilson stays in the hotels with you, right? Correct, yes. And he's the one that you had to get permission from on Thursday to come back to Brooklyn, right? Correct, yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is he the same supervisor who was drunk and you had to take to the convenience store to buy cigarettes?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection. That's not relevant.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained. You testified the other day you had to take someone to the convenience store to get cigarettes before you left for Brooklyn, right?
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I don't think I ever testified that.
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Did you ever tell that to Matt George? I'm sorry? Did you ever tell that same information to Matt George? Not that I can recall, no. Was Nick Wilson drunk on that Thursday? Not that I can recall. Does he drink with you guys in the evening? Yes. Does he drink to the point of intoxication?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, just based on what the typical protocols are, I didn't see any major issues with handling or possible risks of contamination, or protocols that were in place that weren't followed properly. I didn't see those kind of problems in this case.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I mean, we all did.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you'd agree with me that the statements you gave to officers regarding your activities and whereabouts on that July 18 and July 19 were pretty sketchy.
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Object is argumentative. Overruled, but since the court doesn't understand the question, I'm going to ask that you rephrase it. How's that?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The details were few and far between as far as the specificity of your activities on the evenings of July 18 and July 17 to investigating agents, right? I thought they were pretty clear. You couldn't recall what night you got drunk and what night you stayed in the room, could you? I don't recall even saying that. And you're certain you worked on Monday the 16th?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Positive?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Your work records will show that?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If your phone records indicate that you were home on the 16th, do you have any explanation for that? No. You sent Molly a text message at 818 on July 18, 2018, that said my phone data straight up won't work. Do you recall that?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And she didn't respond, did she? No, she did not. And that is something you recalled since the last time we were here in court? I'm sorry? That's something you recalled since the last time you testified? I don't understand the question, I guess. Did I ask you that question the other day, Mr. Jack?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you didn't recall it then?
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I don't know if I recalled it then.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So is Mr. Wilson going to come in here and tell us that you were in Dubuque? Is that the deal?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objections, calls for speculation on behalf of this witness.
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Sustained. That's all I have. Mr. Brown, anything else to this witness? That's all.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So all the proper protocols were followed, no issues there, is that right?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, there were no surprises there.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There were no major problems, but when you refer to interpretation, first of all, what does interpretation mean for the jury?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, typically that's going to be the interpretation of what's on those egrams.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what did you see there, sir?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I saw on various items, just generally speaking, there were mixtures that could be seen. In some cases, the mixtures were fairly strong profiles, but in some instances, they were weaker profiles. But generally, with a lot of labs, within their guidelines, what they do is they get mixtures that are somewhat complex and weak signals, and they just refer to those result comparisons as inconclusive.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And in some instances, I wouldn't necessarily call them inconclusive.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ms. Tibbetts, we know, is a victim of a crime here. You'd agree with that, is that right?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, that's clear.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So in reference to Ms. Tibbetts and Mr. Bahena-Rivera, what are we looking for just with them?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, in any case, it's similar to this, where it's simplified. It's just looking at a defendant and just looking at a victim. You're going to typically look at things that are possessions of the defendant, for example, his vehicle is key in this case, or any kind of possessions that would be from any defendant. Things like his clothing or his personal items.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You're going to not necessarily be interested in his DNA on his own items You're looking for foreign DNA specifically a victim of a crime you want to look within a car for that victim or any other items from him and Conversely, if you're taking samples from the actual person who's been victimized or that person's clothing, you're not necessarily very interested in their profile there.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We won't just rely on the failure of the state to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. We intend to bring you witnesses, and that's because you need to hear what they have to say. Ladies and gentlemen, this case is about a man that immigrated here from Mexico. You will hear about Christian's family circumstances and the reasons that he decided to come into this country.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You're looking for foreign profiles. Specifically, if you see evidence of the defendant there on a victim, on her, or on her clothing, you want to be able to characterize that and identify that presence.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If, and I'm talking about in a hypothetical, we see unaccounted for DNA, does that 100% mean that somebody else was involved in a crime?
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It could mean that, but the DNA is not going to tell you that.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But it can tell us if there's an out-of-place individual somewhere near a location of a crime scene that perhaps might have been involved. Is that correct?
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Yes, that could be what you're looking at when you see unaccounted for alleles on an item that is in a location like that.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, sir, I'm going to direct your attention to the examination of the trunk liner in this case. With reference to the trunk liner, which was covered in item number 58 that was submitted to the lab, do you have some interpretation differences?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. 58, the area 58, I'll call it, can be broken down into various sub-items. Most key is 58.1, 58.2, 58.3, and 58.4. I'm not sure which is which on here, but those were all what were considered possible blood stains. And when a presumptive test for blood was run, those tested positive, those four areas.
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And what did you find that you disagree as a matter of interpretation, sir?
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, in the instance of, for example, 58.1, there were 17 unaccounted for alleles. And just to refer to what I mean by unaccounted for, we have to recall that the only two individuals we're comparing this to are the only two individuals that were typed in this case, the only two references, and those were Ms. Tibbetts.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
and the defendant, outside of their inventory of genetic markers, what we call alleles, were 17 unaccounted for alleles that had to be from somebody else or more than one other person. And there was a clear indication there was female DNA within there that, once again, we don't want to confuse that that might have been Miss Tibbetts. We're talking about a female other than Miss Tibbetts.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So what it showed is that Ms. Tibbetts' DNA was clearly in that trunk liner. Is that correct?
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Not on that particular place. We're not necessarily certain about that. In the instance of the laboratory interpretation, 58.1 was written off as inconclusive comparisons there. I disagree with that to a degree, the interpretation, in that there needed to be an added statement, for example, that there were unaccounted for alleles in another source of DNA that was not Ms. Tibbetts'.
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Part 6: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did it point to a gender of what that DNA contribution would be?
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It appeared to be a female source.
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Is there any other interpretation differences that you would have with 58, and specifically with reference to 58.1, 58.2, 58.3, 58.4?
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I can't give you a metric like foot pounds, but I can tell you that the order in which the amount of force needed depends on how sharp the blade is. and then the tissue that it's going through. So bone offers the most amount of resistance. Cartilage, like the material inside your ear, would offer the next. And then the third would be skin.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So if you use general types of common household experiences with trimming any types of meat products, you would understand that it would take a little bit more force than cutting through a steak, but probably not that much more.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Anything else of significance that was relevant to your determination as to cause and manner of death with States 56 or 57? No. You had mentioned before the clothing that was associated with Molly Tibbetts. Is that right? Yes. All right. So talk to us a bit about that. Whenever you recovered her body in the cornfield, was there any article of clothing that was still on her? Yes.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The initial observation was there were human remains in a state of decomposition that were mostly covered by corn stalks.
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And what was that?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So there was a sports bra that was rolled up above the normally worn area and up closer to the neck area. And then there was socks and then two running shoes.
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Any shorts or underwear? No. Any headband or anything of that nature?
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No.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Okay. On the screen here is exhibit number 58, which has been admitted. What is this?
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So this is the sports bra that we removed from the body. This would be the front of the bra, and you can see a yellow arrow pointing to what looks like a white oblong-shaped area. What we've done here is we took a piece of white paper, put it behind the cloth so you can actually see that outline, and this is a sharp force defect.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To your knowledge, had any of the corn stalks been removed from the body?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Similar to what we saw in the right side of the skull, you can see that there's a blunted end towards the left of the photograph and it becomes sharp and pointy as it goes more towards the right side of the photograph.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what would this particular defect in the front of the sports bra be consistent with?
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This would be consistent with a stab wound going through the bra and into the body.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There does not appear to be a lot of blood on the bra, at least visible to the naked eye. Would you agree? That's correct. Do you have an explanation for that?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Some of it may start to decompose, and also the color may also be hard. Perhaps with chemical analysis there could be, but it's certainly not visibly present, I agree.
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Not to my knowledge at that time.
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Any other defects like the one we see here in Exhibit 58 to the front of the sports bra? Not to the front. We'll move to States Exhibit 59. What are we seeing here in States Exhibit 59? So this is the back side of the bra.
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Commonly, you come across a crime scene team assigned by the Division of Criminal Investigation. Yes. Were any personnel from DCI there that were assigned as crime scene technicians? Yes. Was that Amy Johnson? Yes, it was. And Jonna Berry? Yes. Did you and your team then recover the remains that were underneath the corn stalks? Yes.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This would be on the left side and left back side of the bra. And what I've done is I've taken white triangle pieces of paper and placed them on the bra where there are these defects. Again, these are all sharp force defects of the left side and left back side of the bra.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Are these sharp force defects similar to the same defect that you observed on the front side of the sports bra? Yes. And do each of these defects that we see here in Exhibit 59, do they penetrate all the way through the fabric?
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Yes.
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Does there appear to be much blood that's associated with those particular defects?
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No.
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Same explanation as before? Yes. And how many different ones do we see?
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So there were five on the left and left backside and one on the right front.
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What is States Exhibit 60?
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So this is the torso or the front chest, abdomen, and upper pelvic area of the body. What you see is a decomposition effect, so the skin is leatherized, yellow, and dark. What are apparent here, you can see small little labels. We do have some subsequent photographs that will look at those closer.
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But this gives you an idea of the distribution of defects, sharp force defects, stab wounds of both the right chest and abdominal area and left chest and abdominal area.
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Is this the front or back side of Molly Tibbetts?
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This would be the front side.
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Okay. And at the top of the photo, would that be her neck area? That's correct. States Exhibit 61 and 62 are on the screen. Let's take 61 first. What are we looking at?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So States Exhibit 61, there's a blue arrow which shows a blow-up closer view of one of the wounds that's indicated by a yellow arrow in States Exhibit 62. The features to focus on here are that the edges are smooth, which are characteristic of a sharp force injury or stab wound. This would have been in the chest area and would have likely gone through the chest and likely injured internal organs.
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Yes, my name is Dennis Klein, K-L-E-I-N.
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The wound that... that we see in States Exhibit 61. Is it a close-up actually of wounds that we see in 62, or are there three different wounds?
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There's a total of two wounds that we see. The wound in Exhibit 61 is a blow-up of that wound at the base of the arrow, of the blue arrow.
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States Exhibit 63, 64, and 65 are all on the screen. Do you see that?
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Yes.
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Are those photos all associated with in terms of what injuries you observed at autopsy?
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Yes.
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Okay, can you please just describe what you've observed here in States Exhibit 63?
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So in Exhibit 63, you can see that there's labels on D, E, and F, and these are on the left side of the front. chest. And then exhibit 64 is a close-up view of wound E. Again, this has sharp margins. This would be a stab wound. And then E is in exhibit 65, again, showing smooth margins. And this wound penetrates all the way through the skin and underlying tissue.
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Just want to make sure we're clear for the record. States Exhibit 64, you have your label D in the photo, is that correct? That's correct. And then States Exhibit 65, you have your label E. That's correct. And both of those photos represent two different types of sharp force injuries that you observed. Yes. On the screen now are states exhibit 66, 67, and 68. Do you see those?
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Yes.
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And these are what part of the body of Molly Tibbetts?
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Right. So the previous series, we were looking at the left side of the front of the body. Now we're looking at the right side of the body. And we're looking at what I labeled three different stab wounds, A, B, and C. and those are depicted in aggregate in Exhibit 66.
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And how is it that you go about doing that with a body that's in the state of decomposition that we've seen here last week?
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And then in Exhibit 67, there's a close-up of A and again you can see the smooth edge demonstrating that this is a sharp force or stab wound. And then in Exhibit 68, again we see smooth edges and that would be with depicting the stab wound B.
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So just to be clear, State's Exhibit 66 that's on the left side of the screen has three white labels.
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Correct.
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All of those are separate stab wounds? Yes. Okay. And then the close-ups that we have on Exhibit 67 is A. Correct. All right. And then 68 is your B. Is that right? Correct. Would those wounds have been caused like the other wounds by some type of knife or other sharp force object? Yes. And do they penetrate all the way through the skin into the body cavity? Yes.
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So, Dr. Klein, we've looked at a constellation of injuries with regard to Molly Tibbetts, and the constellation of injuries I'm referring to is on her chest. You would agree? Yes. Would vital organs have been affected by the object that would have caused the wounds that we've seen in these photos on the screen? 66 through 68 in the previous photos? Yes. Can you describe that for us, please?
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Yeah, so we document with photographs in a layer-wise fashion. So we take pictures with the vegetation, corn stalks on the body. We carefully remove that vegetation, take additional photographs, observe the body, and then using multi-hands with my team,
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The area in the body would be consistent with the chest and upper abdomen, and those areas contain vital organs, including the lungs.
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And the heart? Could be, yes. On the screen now is Exhibits 69, 70, and 71. Do you see that? Yes. These photos were actually taken after the assistance with Dr. Garvin, is that right? That's correct. Okay. Were they of assistance to you, though, in determining your cause and manner of death? Yes. Let's take 69 first. It's on the top left of the screen. Do you see that? Yes.
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Tell the jury what we're looking at in Exhibit 69.
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So you can see the label R6. This stands for right sixth ribs. So each of the ribs are named by a number, starting with one near the collarbone all the way down to the lower portion of the chest. And then they're just given left and right designations. So right sixth rib would be about halfway between the collarbone and the bottom of your rib cage.
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On the top of that rib, about mid portion on the front, slightly side area of the rib, on the top of that rib were defects that you can see in exhibit 70, and this is just a close-up view. And you can see there's little cut marks, or sometimes they'll refer to as kerfs,
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that this would be consistent with a sharp instrument that's inserted through the soft tissue of the skin and the soft tissue of the chest going in between the ribs and the sharp portion is cutting on the top of the sixth rib.
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On State's Exhibit 70, we see two marks in the middle or just above the middle of the photo, do you see that? Yes. Does that represent two separate stab wounds or could that be caused from one insertion of the sharp force, like a knife?
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Right. So technically there are two defects. The most likely is that the one stab wound into the chest and then a person moves or the knife is moved between when it's inserted and removed is the most likely explanation.
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And then exhibit 71 shows the same area just a bit closer. This would be of the left rib. I'm sorry.
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So same scenario. This is the top of the left rib. So instead of having those defined kerf marks, you can see it's almost like a scrape along the surface of the rib. And this would also be in an area consistent with some of the stab wounds that we previously described on the left side of the torso. Okay.
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These would be associated, at least in general, in the general area where we would have seen the same sharp force defects on the jogging bra? Yes. States Exhibit 72 and 73 are on the screen. Can you please describe for us what is Exhibit 72?
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And how are you employed?
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We lift the body up and carefully place it into a body bag, and then we photograph and examine the area where the body was to see if there were any other pieces of evidence or body parts that we would need to recover.
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Yes, so States Exhibit 72 shows a close-up view of the left rib, and so this would be the outside of the rib, so not the part of the rib that's against the lung, but it's closer to the outside chest wall. And I've put a
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yellow triangle indicating where the defect is and so this is likely caused by the tip of a knife or sharp instrument hitting that outside part of the rib and then the knife tip scrapes along as it moves from that most tip to the tip which is to the most left part of the photograph and as it moves towards the right and then slightly downward.
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In maybe simple terms, would it be the knife striking the bone directly?
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That's correct because the rib is going to provide a significant amount of resistance compared to the soft tissue. So the tip of the knife is going to be stopped by the rib and then movement either of the knife or the person moving that tip is going to slide along the surface of the rib.
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And then States Exhibit 73 is, what do we see here?
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So we've talked about the sixth, seventh, and now this is the eighth rib. So this is the most further down rib on the left side. And you can see that there are, again, these defects that are consistent with sharp force defects. This would be on the top left eighth rib.
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So a knife would be going between the ribs through the muscles and connective tissue, and then the sharp portion of that knife is cutting on the the top portion of the rib.
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And the injuries that we see in 72 and 73 are separate injuries, would that be true?
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Correct. Two different ribs, two different wounds.
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Did you also perform any type of examination of her hands looking for injuries? Yes. And were you able to find anything of any significance?
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Yes.
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Okay, we'll move to States Exhibit 74. What is States Exhibit 74? What is this a photo of?
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So this is the back of the right hand. There's a large defect from the knuckles over the major portion of the back of the hand. In Exhibit 74, where you see the yellow arrow, there is a defect that in contrast to the irregular jagged component of the rest of the defects, which are from decomposition. There could have been injury. I can't tell.
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So whenever you lifted the body, later identified as Molly Tibbetts, up and put her into the body bag, was there anything of significance underneath her that you observed?
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But there is this injury at the base of the thumb near the wrist indicated by the yellow arrow that has that smooth margins. And this is suggestive of another sharp force injury, an incised or cut wound on the back of the hand.
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All right. In the process of your autopsy of Molly Tibbetts, you may have already described this, but were you able to find any other similar type of wounds to the hand? This was the only one. And does the decomposition process affect that? Would that be true? Yes. Concerning the injuries to Molly Tibbetts, I want to talk about one other thing.
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I'm the state medical examiner.
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Lower abdomen and genitalia of Molly Tibbetts, how would you characterize the state of decomposition of that part of her body? Severe. Right. Did you make any attempts to take swabs from that area of the body? Yes. Were you successful?
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Not of the pelvic region itself, but as close as we could. So along the inner thighs, there was some remnant skin that we did swab.
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And that would have been submitted to the DCI laboratory for analysis? Yes. But there was nothing that you could take swabs from or samples from related to the genitalia of Molly Tibbetts? That's correct. It was essentially gone? Correct. Any other bodily fluid that you were able to take for later toxicology testing? There was no liquids.
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We had to rely on skeletal muscle for analysis.
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And did you submit that for a toxicology analysis?
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Yes.
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Anything of significance to cause and manner of death that came back on toxicology?
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The toxicology report was negative.
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Based upon your training and experience, the results of your autopsy, do you have an opinion as to the cause of death of Molly Tibbetts? Yes. And what is that?
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The thing that we saw was just the outline of her body, and it was clear that the body had been decomposing in that area for some time.
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Multiple sharp force injuries.
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And based upon your training and experience and the results of your autopsy, do you have an opinion as to the manner of death of Molly Tibbetts? Yes. What is that? Homicide. Thank you. That's all I have.
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Defense may cross-examine. Dr. Klein, in the course of your forensic autopsy of Molly Tibbetts, did you take her fingernails? Yes. Why?
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That's part of our standard protocol for any suspected homicide case. And why is that part of your protocol? Sometimes the crime laboratory can do analysis on those fingernails looking for assailant DNA.
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Sure. And especially in this case, I think we saw the photo of Ms. Tibbetts' hand. There was an injury to the back of the hand, which would indicate that perhaps a defensive wound was found, right? Correct. So that makes the fingernails doubly important, correct? It would be important, yes. Ms. Tibbetts was said to be about 5'2 or 5'3. Was that consistent with your findings?
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Yes.
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Now, the weapon that was used to cause Ms. Tibbetts' death, could you tell if it was the same weapon throughout, or could there be multiple weapons?
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Okay. Nothing else of any significance?
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All the weapons are consistent with one another, and they would all be consistent with the same weapon, but I'm not able to exclude more than one weapon. Okay.
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And the wounds that you saw to Ms. Tibbetts' body, First of all, based upon the wound that penetrated the skull, that's going to take a fairly significant knife, isn't it?
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Correct.
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Yes, it would take a knife that was strong enough to go through bone, which would offer the most resistance of anywhere in the body.
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Okay. And are you able to give an opinion as to how much force it takes to penetrate a skull?
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All right. Explain, if you would, Dr. Klein, what causes a body to decompose at any certain rate, either faster or slower? Can you help explain that, please?
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I don't have an exact, any type of metric, whether that be foot-pounds. I think we would have to rely on our general common knowledge with cooking and those types of things. Obviously, the sharper the tip of the blade, the easier and less force would be needed.
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Dr. Klein, part of the duties of the medical examiner, maybe one of the chief duties of the medical examiner, is to perform a forensic autopsy. Is that true?
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The wounds to Ms. Tibbetts' head, we had wounds on both sides of the head, correct?
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Yes.
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Could you tell the vantage point of the assailant from where the wounds were located? No. So you couldn't tell if the assailant was standing in front of or behind Ms. Tibbetts? That's correct. You couldn't tell if the assailant was standing over Ms. Tibbetts? Correct. Wound to the skull, the one that penetrated the skull, was that wound in and of itself fatal? It could have been, yes.
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The wounds to the vertebrae, C4 and C5, we had one on the left and one on the right, correct?
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Yes.
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Can you tell from those wounds? The vantage point of the assailant?
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No.
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Again, can't tell if in front of or behind? Correct. Can you tell from any of these wounds if Ms. Tibbetts was standing in front of or behind the assailant? Strike that. In front of or with her back turned to the assailant?
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I would not be able to tell that, no.
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How many total knife wounds did you see? Did you calculate?
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Yes. So my calculation is nine definitive wounds. wounds, I suspect up to 12. And some of these are in the back of the body? The back of the body was decomposed. So what we're looking at is from about the armpit side area forward.
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Yeah, so the body decomposes in a couple of different ways. There are parts of the own body that starts to decompose or autolyze, meaning self-digest. And then bacteria and then eventually insects start breaking down the body. All these processes act more quickly the warmer and more humid the environment is.
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And that's what's depicted in the photograph of the sports bra? Correct. Can you tell anything from these wounds the size of the assailant? Did this appear to be, in your training and experience, a fairly frenzied attack?
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I can't tell you the order or rapidity with which the wounds all occurred, just the locations and the total numbers.
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The injuries to the neck, you talked about the carotid artery, the jugular vein, and the other artery, which I'm not going to try to pronounce. Those all, if they're severed, cause significant blood loss, don't they? Yes. And you'd expect to find significant blood in a location other than a cornfield. if that blood was, let's say, in the trunk of a car. Dr. Klein, thank you.
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Thank you.
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Nothing further. Any redirect? Go ahead.
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It's very short, Judge. The fingernails that were collected, those were submitted to the DCI lab, is that correct? Yes. For purposes of DNA comparison? Yes. I think I did forget to ask you about that. Would any of the skin cells, if there were any underneath the fingernails, would those be affected by the same decomposition process that you described earlier? Yes.
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And the constellation of wounds that we observed in the photos, what was the estimation of the number again?
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Right, so nine definitive, and I suspect up to 12.
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So if you're suspecting four additional stab-type wounds, what is it that affects your opinion as to whether or not you can say those are definitive stab wounds?
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In the wounds that I said were definitive, I had at least two points of reference. They would be either corroborated by... Defects to the bone or defects to clothing. There were some wounds that I had neither of those, just a soft tissue injury. And due to decomposition, I felt that it was highly suspicious for sharp force injury, but was not 100%.
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And lastly, Dr. Klein, you were asked, concerning how much bleeding would be associated with the wounds that you observed. Do you remember that? Yes. All right. There would be a significant amount of bleeding. Would that be true? Yes. If that bleeding occurred outside of a vehicle, and it ended up on the ground, would it be readily recognizable on the ground weeks later?
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I think after rain and decomposition, it could be not visibly apparent to the eye.
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That's all I have. Thank you. Mr. Fries, anything else for this witness? No, Your Honor. Our final witness is Dr. Heather Garvin. Can you please state your name for the record?
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It's Heather Garvin.
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And how are you employed?
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I am an associate professor of anatomy at Des Moines University. And through the university, I also have a contract with the state of Iowa as a forensic anthropology consultant, given that I'm a board-certified forensic anthropologist.
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All right, Dr. Garvin, were you asked to assist in examining the body of Molly Tibbetts?
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I was.
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When were you called?
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So I received a call from Dr. Klein on August 21st about the case, asking me to be there the following morning, August 22nd, for the beginning of the autopsy.
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And were you present for the autopsy of Molly Tibbetts?
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I was present for a small portion of it at the beginning just to see the condition of the remains and also to create a plan with Dr. Klein about my subsequent analyses.
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Is there anything that has to be done to prepare the bones that are recovered from any particular person that has been autopsied?
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Yes. So as a forensic anthropologist, I'm interested in the bones themselves, not the soft tissue. So after the medical examiner has completed their analyses of the soft tissue, we essentially place them in a heated water bath to remove the remaining soft tissue so that I can get a better view of the bones. It's called maceration. Okay.
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So in a very hot humid environment such as July in Iowa, that would be a rapid acceleration of decomposition as opposed to in the wintertime in Iowa.
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And was that done in this case?
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It was.
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Is that a process that you do yourself?
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I do not. The medical examiner's office does it for me.
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Okay. And at some point, the bones of Molly Tibbetts were prepared for your examination?
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That is correct.
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Where did you go to perform that exam?
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So the following day, August 23rd, is when I initially started my examination of the remains, and all of it was done at the state medical examiner's office.
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The entirety of your examination takes how long?
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I would say I spent at least 20 hours looking at the remains, and my reports are pretty extensive. I would say at least 10 to 20 hours writing and preparing the report.
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And if you find anything of any significance, do you photograph that for purposes to be used later?
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That is correct.
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I'm going to show you what's been previously introduced as States Exhibit 75. It'll be on the screen right in front of you. Exhibit 75 that you have there in front of you, what are we seeing here?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is a photograph that was included in my forensic anthropology report, and what it's displaying is all of the skeletal remains, the bones, after processing, after the soft tissue has been removed, and it's in approximate anatomical position. So it's just displaying everything that I had to work with and to analyze.
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. In assessing the skeletal remains now of Molly Tibbetts, was there any particular bone or structure that was missing?
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I had a mostly complete skeleton. I believe I was missing one tooth, a hyoid bone, a very small bone that's in the neck, and two toe bones. But otherwise, I had everything else.
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What's the explanation, if you have one, why the hyoid and the other bones would have been missing?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They probably were not recovered at the scene. They're very small. When bodies are exposed to the elements, you can get animals. There's lots of different environmental influences that can scatter remains.
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So whenever you were shown to the location of the body, how would you describe the weather conditions that you were dealing with?
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, we'll run through your findings. We'll start with the head, okay? The next picture that we have is States Exhibit 76. In States Exhibit 76, what were you able to find?
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So this is a photograph I took of the right side of the head, the cranium, and the arrow there is indicating a sharp force defect that I found on the skull. It's just in front and above the opening for the right ear.
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And does this particular area that you have identified with the area, does it penetrate all the way through the skull?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, it perforates through the skull. And after autopsy, they did cut open the skull to look at the endocranial surfaces as well. And you can see that opening on the inside.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. We'll look at the next exhibit, States Exhibit 77. What does this represent?
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So this is a close-up image of that defect on the right side of the head. It's in the same orientation. It's just closer to show the borders of that sharp force defect.
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what, as a forensic anthropologist, what did the borders of that defect tell you about the instrument that was used to inflict it?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the very sharp borders to it are consistent with sharp force defect or sharp force trauma. something that was created with a beveled surface or a pointed surface where it cut through the bone.
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They were hot and humid.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The particular triangular shape of this, where down towards the right side there's a more squared edge and a more pointed edge towards the other, suggests that it was likely a single-edged blade where the spine, the non-cutting edge, would be the squared part, and then the beveled cutting edge would be towards the point.
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When you go into corn, It gets even worse, isn't that right? That's correct. Humidity goes up? Yes. And the moisture in the field, was it muddy? Yes, it was. Had it rained recently or appeared to have rained recently? Yes, it was very muddy. Are those all factors that accelerate the decomposition of a body? Yes. Where did you take the body that was later identified as Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And the beveled cutting edge would be a little bit higher up in this photo, is that correct?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct, up and towards the left.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And whenever you looked at the interior of the skull, does this particular wound penetrate all the way through the bone?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can you tell as a forensic anthropologist how deep a knife would have been stabbed into this area of the skull?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I could not. I mean, it went through the few millimeters of bone that you have that's covering the brain there. I did not have any indication that it hit any other surfaces within the inside of the skull.
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And at the time that you were able to observe the body of Molly Tibbetts before this process was done with the bones, what was this state of decomposition that you observed?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was highly decomposed, mostly mummified tissue, some putrefied tissue underneath that mummification.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Whenever you talk about mummification, what are you referring to?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's the drying out of the tissues. I don't want to give another example, but the tissues dry out, they become hard, they're dehydrated.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We'll move on to the state's exhibit number 78. You've placed some arrows on state's exhibit 78. Do you see that?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, let's start on the left side of the photo. What do the arrows represent on the left side of the photo?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So overall in the photo, we have the two neck vertebrae, C4 and C5, sitting on top of one another as they do in the neck. And we're looking at the anterior, their frontal surface of that. Anatomically, there may have been a little bit more space between them because cartilage would sit between those bones. So the yellow and the orange and peach arrows over there,
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
are the right side of those neck vertebrae, and each arrow indicates a sharp force defect that I saw in the bone.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And the three arrows that you're referring to, are those all separate defects to the bone?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So those four arrows are all separate defects to the bone, but they all align anatomically with one another and could have been created with a single impact.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is it also consistent with multiple stab wounds to the neck?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All I can say is a minimum of one.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Then on the right side, there's a blue arrow on States Exhibit 78. Do you see that?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I do.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what does that area represent?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So that's a sharp force defect that I have to the left side of the vertebrae there. And in another view, there's a second one on the C4, the top vertebrae right there, that will align with it as well. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do the wounds that you see associated with the blue arrow on the right and the other colored arrows on the left, could those have been caused by one blow or one stab of the knife?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, they don't go all the way through the vertebrae.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So there's at least two injuries that we see here then in States Exhibit 78. Is that true?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct. The minimum of one to the right and the minimum of one to the left side of the neck.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, can you tell by looking at the injuries here to the bones whether or not it was a slashing-type motion that would have caused these injuries or some other type of motion that would have caused them?
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, on the ones to the right, if you look at how far in, how deep in they would go into the bone, it's about 2.5 centimeters. So in my opinion, that wouldn't be consistent with a shallow slashing.
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then the arrow that represents the injury on the right would... We're saying right side of the picture, that's the left side of the neck, correct?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would that be consistent with the same type of motion that you just indicated?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What is the state's exhibit 79?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So in this picture here, that top vertebra, that C4, I've taken it and just flipped it over to better show those defects because they're hard to illustrate in the photographs. So the same color arrows correspond to the previous picture. So the yellow and orange is the right side. The green is the left side. And the arrows indicate sharp force defects that I have on that vertebra.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the orange and yellow arrows are the vertebrae. Right side of the neck, correct?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And the green is the left side of the neck?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Same injuries that we saw before in States Exhibit 78, just to make sure we're clear.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the body was then brought to the state medical examiner's office, which is the state morgue, which is located in Ankeny, Iowa, which is located about 15 minutes north of Des Moines.
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The green is one that you couldn't see in the previous photo, but it aligns with that blue arrow, the defect we saw on the bottom vertebra, the C5 vertebra in that previous photo.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, what are we looking at here with exhibit 80?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So these are the sharp force defects to the left side of the vertebrae there, same colored arrows as in the previous photographs. So I have that C4 and C5 vertebra sitting against one another, and you can see the linear defects line up with one another.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The linear defects you're referring to are the ones that are represented by the blue arrow and the green arrow?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And is this a separate injury than what we've seen before in previous photos?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, it's just a different view showing that they align with one another.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, so before we get into Exhibit 81, did you do some examination with regard to the ribs, to the rib bones of Molly Tibbetts?
Crimeatorium
Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So I examined all of the bones of Molly Tippett's, all of the surfaces, both of my eyes and under stereoscopic microscope. But yes, that did include the ribs.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Exhibit 81 is a cluster of five separate photos. Would you agree with me?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what do those five separate photos that make up Exhibit 81 represent?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So this is another figure from my report that I gave to the medical examiner, and they're showing different views of the defects that I had on the right sixth rib, sharp force defects.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can you please tell the jury, describe for them, and define what is the purpose of a forensic autopsy?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So do each of the photos, we'll start with the top left corner. First of all, what is that?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the top left corner, the one labeled A, is the right sixth rib. so that you can see the entire rib there. And the green arrow, it's hard to see right there, but those green arrows are where I have the sharp force defects on the rib. It's kind of an anterior lateral for the right, sixth rib.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then the remaining phonographs are just closer views and different angles and different lighting of those defects on the rib.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Moving to the right, we have a closer photo of what those defects are. Is that right?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct. And you can see that the defects come down to a point. They're V-shaped at the floor, which is consistent with a knife.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Does the decomposition process destroy the fingerprints? or other identifying characteristics of a body? It can. Okay, and what about blood that's in the body? What happens to blood in the body when it decomposes?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And I see three different areas of defect in the bone in the picture on the top right. Would you agree?
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Correct. In that one, you can see the three deeper ones. There are more shallow ones that are better represented in the other photos. Okay.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And moving down to the next photo, is that one of those photos you're referring to that is in the middle on the left?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct. In B there, it's a top-down view. So you can see the three deeper sharp force defects, but you can also see just beyond them a couple shallow linear defects as well.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then moving below that photo, there's multiple arrows that show an area on the same rib bone. Is that true?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry. What do those represent?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Those are even more superficial linear scratches in the bone. I was going to mention that the green arrow in each of these figure is the same defect for orientation. Okay.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And then moving to the last photo in Exhibit 81, the last part of it, does that show the same area that we're looking at in the previous photographs?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, it does.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Looking at those pictures in the sixth rib, what side of the body again was this from?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is the right.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The right side. Can you tell how many different times a knife would have been stabbed into Molly that would have caused the injuries that we see here?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Given the close proximity of all of these defects, I said that it is a minimum of one impact to that right sixth rib area.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Could it be more than one?
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It's a minimum of one.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
States Exhibit 82, this is the same, is this the same left? I'm sorry, this is a different rib, is that right?
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Correct.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, my bad. Which rib are we dealing, or are we looking at here in States Exhibit number 82?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So, now we've moved to the left sixth rib.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is directly across from the other rib that we were looking at? Would that be accurate?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The rib lies directly across from it, yes.
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This is a constellation of four different photos, A, B, C, and D, is that correct?
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That is correct.
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That's within States Exhibit 82?
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Correct.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
On the top left quadrant, what does that photo show?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So that top left quadrant A is an overview of that entire rib. And again, I've demarcated with arrows where the sharp force defects are on that rib. They're a little bit more lateral. On the right side, it was anterior lateral. On the left side, a little bit more lateral on the side.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Moving to the right of that photo, what do we see in that picture?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So this is a closer view of those sharp force defects. Again, throughout all of these pictures, the green arrow indicates the same defect, the yellow arrow, the same defect for orientation.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Blood starts to disappear, and even after a few days, sometimes it can be difficult getting any blood. And then by the time that a body is in a moderate to advanced stage of decomposition, there's no blood left for analysis.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, and then collectively, the two pictures below that show what?
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They're even closer views. We have one linear defect where that green arrow is. And then between that green and the yellow arrow, there's essentially a shaved off portion of that top part of the rib.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Whenever I look at this, Dr. Garvin, it appears to me to be more of a scraping type injury rather than the notches that we saw in the previous photos. Would you agree?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I would agree.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What is your explanation for that in looking at this particular part of the rib?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It can just be a difference in the orientation that the blade impacted the rib. For example, if you had a more side orientation, it could shave off that top part of the bone versus creating that V-shaped defect that we saw in some of the other linear ones.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
State's exhibit number 83 that's on the screen, which particular rib are we looking at in state's exhibit 83?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So this is the left seventh rib.
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Okay. So just below the sixth rib, correct?
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That is correct.
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All right. This looks to be a different type of impact. Would you agree?
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Yeah. So this is still a sharp force defect. Here it is on the external surface, the outer surface of the rib, where the other views were on the top part of the rib. And it's just a linear notch, perpendicular impact, and then a trailing scratch from that. Okay.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What would that be consistent with as far as any type of weapon that would have been used to inflict this type of injury we see in Exhibit 83?
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Any kind of knife or blade.
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It appears to me that in the two photos to the right side of States Exhibit 83 that the bone appears cracked. Would that be true? There appear to be cracks in the bone?
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I'm not sure what you're referring to. Okay.
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The close picture that we have here on the bottom right, there appears to be some sort of linear mark that cuts across the bone. Do you see that?
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The oblique one running down? Yes. That's a trailing scratch from the sharp force defect. So the sharp implement created a scratch against that surface.
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Okay, and how would you characterize the state of decomposition for Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
States Exhibit 84. Four photos that make up States Exhibit 84. Would you agree?
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I agree.
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All right. On the top left corner of this exhibit, what is that?
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So that's an overall view of the left eighth rib.
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And then the middle photo on the top, what does that represent?
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So the middle photo and all the others other than A there in the top left corner are close-ups of the defects that is located at that spot of the yellow arrow in A. And then describe for us what the defects are in the bone that is here, that is the eighth, left eighth rib. So again, we have defects consistent with sharp force trauma.
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I would categorize her as a moderate to severe decomposition with skeletonization, meaning parts of bone were starting to show through.
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In this case, it's almost as if some of the bone has been cut away or carved out from that impact.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And again, can you tell us with regard to this area of the eighth rib, how many different stabs of a knife would have caused this type of injury?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is a minimum of one impact to that left eighth rib.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
State's Exhibit 85 is on the screen, is that correct?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is correct.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We've looked very closely at some of the injuries or all the injuries that you observed to the skeletal remains of Molly Tibbetts. Is that true?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is true.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What does Exhibit 85 then represent?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So this summarizes the various areas that I found those sharp force defects. Overall, I had a minimum of seven impacts, one to that right side of the head, one to the right side of the neck, the C4, C5 vertebra, one to the left side of the C4, C5 vertebra. I have a sharp force impact to the right sixth rib, another impact to the left sixth rib,
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
another one to the left seventh rib, and another one to the left eighth rib. So in total, a minimum of seven impacts.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Have we fairly summarized all the injuries that you were able to observe in your examination of the skeletal remains of Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Anything else with regard to injuries to her pelvic region, her leg, her thigh bone, shin bones, and feet? Anything else that you noticed or observed in your examination of her skeletal remains?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And later at autopsy, were you able to recover any blood from her body that was useful to you in your analysis? No. Once you got Molly Tibbetts back to the medical examiner's office, were you able to perform a forensic autopsy? Yes. And when did that take place?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No. The only trauma I saw were the sharp first defects that we've discussed here.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's all I have. Thank you. Defense may cross-examine. No questions. State of Iowa may call its next witness. Your Honor, on behalf of the State of Iowa, the State of Iowa rests.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The purpose of a forensic autopsy is to document medical findings, collect evidence, and provide information that determines cause and manner of death for deaths that occur under medical examiner jurisdiction. So any case that would be of interest to the state would be of interest to the medical examiner.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So that was the following day on August 22nd.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And tell us where it would have occurred.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It would have been in the morgue in Ankeny, Iowa.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is this your office? Yes. Or at least associated with your office, correct? Yes. And as part of the autopsy process, did you obtain the assistance of any other persons?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I had the assistance of technicians who helped me with the examination and then we also called upon experts from the DCI crime lab to help with specialty items such as trying to obtain fingerprints using specialty techniques as well as advice on where to collect DNA samples.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
State may call its next witness. Our next witness is Dr. Dennis Klein. Dr. Klein, good afternoon. Good afternoon. Can you please state your name for the record?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And in the fingerprint process, were you able to obtain any usable fingerprints from the body of Molly Timmots?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We tried using a technique called microsil with the assistance, but I wasn't able to obtain any useful fingerprints.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Describe for the jury how you begin the autopsy. Well, let me back up. Total time, from the time that you began with Molly Tibbetts at the beginning of the autopsy until you were finished, how long does that process take?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In this particular case, it was done in various stages. So the first stage was about two and a half to three hours. But then because we need to examine the bones and have an expert in determining bone forensic analysis or an anthropologist. Certain steps had to be taken, which take days to occur. So there were multiple stages of analysis, but that initial examination was about three hours.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that pretty standard for any autopsy? Yes. So who was the forensic anthropologist that you utilized in this case?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, this was Dr. Heather Garvin.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And is she associated with any university in or around Des Moines?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, with Des Moines University.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is Dr. Garvin somebody that you've worked with on previous cases?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, tell the jury how you began the autopsy of Molly Tibbetts.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So we followed the process of documenting findings, and that includes taking photographs, taking notes, and observing. Once the initial step is done, we take x-rays. The purpose of that is to see if there are any bullets or other retained fragments that might help explain death.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Then we remove clothing and observe that clothing, which we did have findings on the clothing that helped further the examination. And then we'll sometimes clean the body in certain areas and observe and try to identify injuries on the external part of the body.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So that would be the skin in various areas of the body, looking for injuries and interpreting those findings that would help in determining cause and manner of death.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, this is all external, is that correct? Yes. Then typically in any autopsy, you would perform an internal examination? That's correct. Given the state of decomposition of Molly Tibbetts, were you able to do any type of internal examination?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We certainly did open the skin in a way that we normally would, but due to the extent of the decomposition, most all the organs except for the right kidney were not identifiable and were completely decomposed.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Dr. Klein, when did you first become involved in the recovery or autopsy of a person later identified as Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You mentioned that you x-ray body or whatever. That's one of the first things that you do. Is that correct? Yes. Just in summary, what would the x-rays have revealed to you concerning the body of Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The first thing that we're looking for is bullets or any other type of retained weaponry. So a tip of a knife sometimes can get caught up in a bone. And then we're also looking for any other identifying features. Sometimes people have hip replacements or other orthopedic metal that will help us in identifying someone who's died and has decomposed.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you able to observe anything of significance with regard to the injuries to Molly Tibbetts from x-rays?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What I want to do, Dr. Klein, is essentially go head to toe with your autopsy findings. Is that acceptable to you?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. So let's go with the first photo, which has already been admitted. States Exhibit 53 is on the screen. What are we looking at here? So this is before the body is cleaned.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And this, you can see that the skin is darkened and leatherized. This is from decomposition. You can see that there's the letter H, and then I've placed in this photo a yellow arrow. That indicates a defect in the skin. It has smooth margins. This would be consistent with a sharp force injury or a stab wound of the left cheek.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And the yellow arrow that's pointing, it appears to be a hole just below the left ear. Is that correct? That's correct. Anything else of significance on Exhibit 53?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, the only thing, just so that for clarity's sake, in the ear you'll see that hole. Because of the decomposition and drying artifact, that's the ear canal. That's not another wound.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was first informed by a telephone call from the county medical examiner, Dr. Paulson, in Poweshie County. My first encounter was on August 21st when I went out to the cornfield, the scene where the body that was ultimately identified as Molly Tibbetts was found.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Other than the wound that we see here in Exhibit 53, were there other identifiable wounds on the head of Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not on this photo.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Okay, I'm going to show you what's been marked as States Exhibit 54 and 55. Do you see those pictures? Yes. On the left side of the screen is exhibit number 54. What are we looking at here?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
As I mentioned before, there's different stages and processes. So this is in the process where all the soft tissue has been removed from the skull. So we're looking at just the bone. And in the photo to the left, which is marked as a DSC 1930, this is the right side of the skull. And just above and forward of the ear canal and behind the ear socket is a defect.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's an oblique oblong defect and a close-up of that defect. defect is seen in the photo just to the right DSC 2035 so exhibit 55 this would be the close-up of that defect on the right side of the skull and the features that are important to notice is that there's a pointy end towards the top and a slightly squared off component on the bottom.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is consistent with a knife that would have a blunt end and a sharp end or what we call a single-edged blade.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can you make any determination whether or not this single edge blade that caused this wound would have penetrated through the skull?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So not shown in this photograph, but by observing the skull, we see that this wound goes all the way through the skull.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So just to be clear, were there two areas of injury on the skull? Yes. All right. One on the left? Correct. And then a penetrating wound on the right? Correct. Anything else of any significance that assisted you in arriving at the cause and manner of death in States Exhibit 54 or 55?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, we've covered it.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And examining the body of Molly Tibbetts at autopsy, moving to the neck area, were you able to observe any injuries to the neck area that were of significance to you?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So during the initial part of the examination, all the soft tissue was absent due to decomposition. It was only after processing the bones and observation by the forensic anthropologist, Dr. Garvin, that additional sharp force defects were identified in what are called the cervical vertebra or the bones that stack up on one another forming the neck bones.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you and a team from your office went to the location where she was located?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And let's go to the next slide. So on the screen here, Dr. Klein, are exhibits 56 and 57. Do you see those?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do both of these photos represent the bones in the neck area after they had been cleaned? That's correct. All right. Let's go with States Exhibit 56 first. Can you please describe for the jury what we're seeing in this particular photo?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, so you can see that they're labeled C4 and C5. Those stand for cervical vertebra 4 and cervical vertebra 5. The way the vertebra or the neck bones are numbered is one is right beneath the skull and actually supports the skull and it goes all the way to 7, which is right about the area where your collarbones are.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's correct.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So about midway in the neck, this is the exhibit 56 shows the left side of the neck and you can see that there are defects indicated by the yellow arrow and both C4 and C5 show this linear mark which is from a sharp force instrument like a knife. And then in Exhibit 57, we see the right side of the neck bones, and you can see that there's a defect indicated by the yellow arrow.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, and that would have been in a cornfield near the town of Guernsey? That's correct. Whenever you arrived at that area, were you shown to the location where the body had been located? Yes. What were your initial observations?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One point of note is that a blood vessel called the vertebral artery. The vertebral artery, which is, there's four major blood vessels that are in the neck. One of those four runs through that opening right next to that yellow arrow in Exhibit 57.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you have any opinion as to whether or not the wounds that we see here in States Exhibit 56 and 57 would be consistent with any type of slashing or stabbing motion of a knife? Yes. And what is that opinion?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That they are consistent with a sharp force injury could be from stabbing or a large slash or incised wound.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Are there major blood vessels in the neck that would be near where these sharp force injuries are located on the vertebrae C4 and C5? Yes. And what are those?
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So depending on the angle that the knife entered the neck, there are the jugular vein, the carotid arteries, and then as we discussed in Exhibit 57, the vertebral artery.
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Part 5: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
With regard to the injuries that we've observed so far in the skull, as well as the two injuries that we see here in the vertebrae, is there any way that you can quantify the amount of force that would be necessary to cause the types of injuries that you observed?
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60 Seconds Of True Crime | Grandmother Mary Dawn Wilson Goes Missing in Alaska
69-year-old Mary Dawn Wilson went missing on July 12, 2022, after leaving a friend's home in Healy, Alaska. Her abandoned car was found at 1.30 a.m. on July 14 on the seven-mile marker of the Stampede Trail in Denali. Inside the locked car was her two-year-old granddaughter, whom Mary had been caring for. The little girl was in good health despite being alone in the car for two days.
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60 Seconds Of True Crime | Grandmother Mary Dawn Wilson Goes Missing in Alaska
She was later returned to relatives. The Alaska State Troopers and dogs searched the surrounding area for Mary, only finding some of her belongings scattered another mile down the trail. The search was called off on July 18th. Mary Dawn Wilson, who may also use the last name Stanley, was 69 years old when she went missing. She has gray hair and blue eyes.
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60 Seconds Of True Crime | Grandmother Mary Dawn Wilson Goes Missing in Alaska
She's 4 feet 10 inches tall and weighs 160 pounds. She was wearing a floral pink dress with multiple layers underneath and a cream-colored cuspic with green flowers. If you have any information about her case, please reach out to the Alaska State Troopers at 907- You can also make an anonymous report online.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
to be recalled in the future. But, Mr., any other questions at this time, Mr. Young, from this witness? I do. I do. That year, around Christmas, do you recall being given the items of evidence from the Adams County Sheriff's Department?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'm an AR nurse at Blessing Hospital, and I specialize in SANE. Well, let's talk about that. You say you're curious about what SANE is. Tell me what SANE is. I'm a sexual assault nurse examiner. I do exams on patients who have been sexually assaulted.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I myself base my life on being logical, being honest, being value to logic and honesty. It's my favorite pastime, present and future. Today I ask that those of you here be logical, not just the jurors who have the ability to judge this situation, but everybody. Logical as I would rather people be. Today, I will show you a lot of things that are not logical.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And on 11-9, did you notate the injuries of CL with Sloan? I did. Do you have a copy of that present? I do. Could you... possibly go to page six of step two it is a general exam continue i'll start there generally or normal as this normal procedure i would think you would notate all physical markings trauma markings descriptions right to the best of my ability the best of your ability can you uh
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Throughout this trial, I will show you a lot of things that are not logical. Persuasion is not logical. I myself, personally, I promise not to attempt to persuade you. Nor will I manipulate you. I do not find pleasure in doing such. As stated yesterday, I'm a pro se defendant. I'm held to the same standards as any attorney here today.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You've notated some markings here today on a screen and with the state's attorney. Can you read off the notations that you made in this general exam on the continued page?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Bruising to the dorsal side of the left hand, pain to the tailbone.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'm going to object. He's asked the witness to read. If he wants her to read, then she should be given the opportunity to answer the question and read what he said.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I do not expect you to feel sorry for me because I'm a pro-state defendant. I expect you to take it at what you value it as, along with agreeing with law, you know, taking the law into consideration. They say an opening statement is made to acquaint the finder of facts with yourself or with the claims and what you intend to prove. That's exactly what I do today.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I've lost it. In the objection, you may answer that question.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
bruise, four centimeters by three centimeters to the inner left buttock, redness to the right knee, and bruising to the left knee.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And as you said, you're a professional. Obviously, you can determine what bruising is, recent, prior, old, right? Sorry? You stated just a few minutes ago that number four, which you notated as redness to the right knee. You stated that that was a bruise minutes ago.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Myself, I would say proof is a rare thing to come by these days. No one has absolute proof except for, say, you have these cameras here in this room today and I can prove that you are here today. There's a lot of claims placed forth that do not have an effect that coincides with them. I intend to show and prove you that today and throughout this trial.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Redness and bruising sometimes can look similar.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
they, they can. Um, but you did in the exam on 11, nine, you know, 10 minutes written express. Correct. And, uh, as far as number one, bruising to dorsal side of left hand, that would be the top, right? Correct. And, uh, Number two, you described as, well, excuse me, CL probably described to you as pain to the tailbone area, right? Correct.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
What I also intend to prove you are blatant lies. Incredible and impossible happenings. We all know what incredible and impossible means. Impossible means not possible. Credible means it's not credible. I also intend to prove you improper procedure. Throughout this trial, you'll see some of the most major coincidences you've ever seen in your lives.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And number three, you obviously stated four centimeters by three centimeters. That's approximately the size, right? Not too big. It's not an inch wide, an inch in diameter, right? I'm going to object your honor, an inch is a little bit more than two centimeters, so four centimeters would be more than an inch. Excuse me, you're right. I apologize. I worded that wrong.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I want to talk to you about November 9th, 2021. Were you working in the emergency rooms that night? I was. When you were working in the emergency room that night, was there an occasion where you met with or conducted an exam of recursion that you would be questioning?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Number five, bruising to the left knee. That is correct, true? Yeah. Ms. Oglesby, you put an in-depth description on number three, and that was a bruise to the inner left buttock. Is there a reason that you did not put an in-depth size description on number one and number five?
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And they are established, and I'm sure some of the witnesses will attest to them. There are major coincidences in this case. As stated, I talked about logical. I intend to show you that these things do not follow a definition of logic. I will show you what coercion, manipulation, and deceit is.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There's not.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And if you look at the picture, you obviously still have a number five. I believe that was... Just for the record, I don't think she has her pictures in front of her. Send the bell if you need her to make sure she moves on. So if you go to, I believe it is number 23, it shows the needs. Yes, yes ma'am, the needs.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I will show you what certain persons think it is absolutely funny to be vindictive, to lie, to place forth claims, and that would be from the horse's mouth. I will prove to you reason for false testimony from some who may or may not testify throughout this adventure. I'll show you how other law enforcement think these events that are alleged to have happened are quite odd themselves.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And if you observe the left knee, could you give a brief description of maybe the size of that to the best of your knowledge based on your professionalism?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'm unable to recall due to the size of the picture.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Stating such in an indirect way, that is law enforcement, and I intend to prove that to you. I wish any of the claims and things placed forth by all here today, witnesses, and the claimant herself, just do not add up or coincide with each other.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
But can you, I mean, as far as the picture you have in your hand, it's very obvious. Could you give a brief description of maybe what it covers, the length?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It covers the lower part of the knee.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The lower part of the knee. Pretty much the whole knee, correct?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The lower part of the knee.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'd like to step over to... the statement on step two, page two. I understand you've got a redacted statement there in your hands, possibly. I've been given three redactions myself. If you look at that redaction,
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The prosecution intends to prove to those of you that a 77-year-old woman has been brutally beat, battered, sexually assaulted is the proper pronunciation or the proper usage, term usage in trials. They intend to prove to you that a 77-year-old woman was home invaded, kidnapped, hijacked, thrown downstairs at 77 years old. Thrown downstairs. Some of you are young.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Judge, I want to be clear. We haven't introduced anything, and what she has is an unredacted version of her report.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
An unredacted record. There should be no redactions on the report in the witness's hand you're referring her to. If you would go down to the lower center part of the page, I believe it'd be about eight lines up. It says, he then... Judge, I'm going to object at this point.
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If you were thrown downstairs, what would that damage do to you? Thrown downstairs in a violent manner. The prosecution intends to prove to you that a 77-year-old woman was thrown downstairs in a violent manner. All these claims are violent. They're sick. They're demented. All of these being brutal, violent, heinous claims. Those are the titles of alleged claims the judge has placed forth, as Ms.
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This is here, sir. If he wants to get into this... We didn't get into this specifically because he had objected earlier.
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So we want to get into everything that this patient told this nurse. We can do that.
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May it please the court, the defense, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. At 77 years old, Tina Lohman had raised four children. She was a wife, a mother, a grandmother, and a great-grandmother. She ran a successful business with her husband, Tim. But to Tina, what was most important was her family.
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But then the rule of completeness is we're going to get into all of it. So it's up to the defendant. If he wants all this in, that's fine.
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But he's not going to pick and choose different lines in there. All right, well, it's not going to direct court on how we're going to get into things, Mr. Jones, but I would suggest we take a 10-minute recess until 2.30. We'll have the jury excused to the jury assembly room and he will address this issue and objections outside of the hearing of the jury.
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Keck has also stated, of what I've just relayed to you, and more. Some of these descriptions you will hear throughout this trial. I aim to present to you, those of you here today, and I aim to present to those of you from the mouth who spoke them, these claims, and that they are not true. What's better than the person who spoke them? Turning here, Mr. Jones and Ms.
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That is going to do what's called opening the door. Yes, sir. And under the rule of completeness, if you open the door to part of that, that means you open the door to all of that. And that may include everything that would otherwise be inadmissible as hearsay.
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Kick, I believe they both have great intentions. I'm sure they do. However, they're here to attest to something they do not know themselves. They do not have full and 100% proof of. They're just doing their jobs. I don't expect you to hold it against them. I only expect you to be fair. I spoke at the beginning, this being very hard for me. Obviously it is. I'm the defendant here today.
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Okay, and so I wanted to caution you and at least make you aware of that, but before you open the door, if you go down this line of questioning the way you were attempting to proceed, the state is going to be able to introduce that entire report. Your Honor. Okay. Yes, sir. As it stands, the state has already crossed the testimonial line. They crossed the testimonial line with Mr. Smith.
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I did.
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It's my life in jeopardy. It's my life on the line. Not only is it hard for me, I spoke of it being hard for everybody here. I'm sure those of you in the jury today did not want to hear the sickening claims or have to go through this. All we can do is take what we have and place weight on it from our own views. Mainly you people here today, you jurors.
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Can you tell me about what time she was coming?
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right now. Yes, sir. I apologize. I did make myself clear. I didn't mean to try to introduce the unredacted statement. I wanted to assure myself and Ms. Oglesby that she did have the redacted statement so that only the open statements could be used. Was there a redacted statement or the unredacted statement? The Okay. Those are redacted ones with the black lines. All right.
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Today you will be presented with some call evidence. Some of these presentations are very odd and would lead you to say, guilty, he's guilty. These are what I spoke of when I said I'd show you coincidences. Those coincidences are by far some of the biggest coincidences one will ever see in a lifetime. Most never see such. Never having the chance to. Why?
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It was about 8 o'clock.
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So if you go outside and question this witness beyond what is basically not been redacted, then that's going to open the door for the state. So I just wanted to caution you of that before you went down that path.
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Later? Yeah.
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Because there are coincidences that are extremely rare. There are things that just don't happen. A believer of coincidences is what I intend to make you throughout this trial. Ladies and gentlemen, as I said, devious crimes, they are what I myself would call the worst, the very worst. I think they're worse than murder. That's my point of view. As if they were true also.
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Yes, sir.
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All right. And so we'll finish with the recess. If anybody needs to use the facilities, the court will be in recess, and we'll get the jury back in here promptly at 2.30 and resume with your questioning, Mr. Young. Your Honor, if I may, I object to an issue here. To what? I object to a state's attorney going up to witnesses who are on a stand and whispering for me.
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When you do a thing in general, can you give me a general sense of what the first step you do as a sexual assault, how do you come up with what she said?
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I wasn't whispering in what this is. I was getting a people's exhibit sticker. I'm thanking the court reporter for getting the exhibit sticker.
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I apologize if I'm wrong, but it appeared to be as if he said something misaudibly. Court reporter, I'm kidding right there. All right. So, anything said in the courtroom is on the record, Mr. Young, so we're on the way. Please jump, please ride. Ms. Oglesby, did you take a medical history of Gigi Clarence?
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I do not mean to offend anyone here today. However, they simply are not true. My little brother used to run to mother and say, Mom, BB hit me. BB was my sister. He used to say, BB hit me. Mom would say, well, my lovely young man, where are the marks to prove such? Mom, show me the marks. He could not show any mark. Mother would say, I can't tell where the marks are. True story.
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I did.
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And are you aware of some of her existing medical history?
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I don't have that record in front of me.
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Back to the... Back to the... The bruising, or I should say general medical, general exam continued. You stated that you generally notate all bruises or issues with the person's body when these complaints are made. However, here you've only stated bruises. Three bruises and red marks.
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Come to find out, my brother only had the remote taken from him. Scooby-Doo was his favorite. He would watch it end on end for hours. During them times, my brother would make them claims. We would all come to find out in the end that he had just simply walked away from the TV. Sis picked up the remote and he wanted the TV back. The tells he was telling.
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We heard a little while ago you spoke of several different bruises up and down the arm, to the lower legs, underneath the buttocks. Is there a reason for that? The reason that you did not notate all of these marks, they were fresh marks?
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You will see that today, here, and throughout this trial, there are major tails told. Tails that are tall. Simply very tall tails. Then, in reference to my brother, the lack of marks gave my mother reasonable doubt. Today, I intend to prove an extreme amount of reasonable doubt. Throughout this trial will prove extreme amount of reasonable, unreasonable doubt, or excuse me, reasonable doubt.
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This was a very complex case and I documented it to the best of my ability.
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I'd like to go to page three of acts described by a patient or a story. Can I pause there for a moment? When you notate these issues, per se, these happenings, these descriptions, you have to be, what's the word for it? Exact, maybe, where you take down what a declarant said, correct? Correct.
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And on November 9th, 2021, she was looking forward to celebrating the upcoming Thanksgiving and Christmas holidays with her family. She was looking forward to spending those holidays with her husband, her children, her 14 grandchildren, and her 17 great-grandchildren. She had bought the Christmas presents. They were wrapped. They were ready to be placed under the Christmas tree.
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It's a victim, yeah.
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Reasonable doubt, they say, is any idea or condition that interferes with a person.
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Victim, declarant, victim. You take down what they say. You don't normally, for lack of a better word, mess up and mark something that says it's true, right?
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Grounds. All right. The jury has left it. I'm reasonable doubt on their own.
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Going in, meeting the patient, building that rapport so that they trust you to do their exam.
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What are you referring to?
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Well, if you go down penetration of anus, it is the second subject under acts described by patient slash historian on page three of step two. Penetration of anus. It says by penis, finger, and object.
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Jury, throughout this week, there will be all kinds of words placed forth, strong words, educated words. Words some of us may not understand. There will be displays. There will be what many call evidence. And there will be testimonies. I will show you, and if you may, prove to you how things are not as they say. Not as they seem. How most just are not possible. Also known as impossible.
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Correct.
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Object, it was not marked here what the object was. And you have a section off to the right that says what.
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As I stated earlier, I intend to be logical. I will do just that. I humbly ask that you bear with me throughout this process, bear with all of us, those of the court, those of the prosecution, and everybody, recesses, intermissions, just please bear with us and be honest, as I'm sure you all can be, and be fair. Thank you. Mr. Jones, are you prepared to call your first witness? We are, Your Honor.
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That means the patient did not disclose to me what the object was.
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Did you maybe ask her?
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I don't recall.
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Okay. And that is the anus. That is the rear end.
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In this case, what was the first thing you did after you met with this woman? What was the first step you took before you moved in?
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If you would go to page seven of step two, and that is the genital exam. You go down to anal exam, and it says patient declined. No obvious bleeding from rectum. It's clear, right? There's no obvious leading you were the one that analyzed that and examined that? Correct. As you did also examine the labial maneuver genital exam area up in the top left box, that is the vaginal cavity, correct?
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You do so, please. People would call Tim Schmidt to the stand. Mr. Jones, when you're ready with your question. Thank you, Your Honor. Can you please tell us your name? My name is Timothy G. Schmidt.
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Mr. Schmidt, how old are you?
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I'm 66 years old.
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Mr. Schmidt, where do you currently live?
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The outer entrance to the vaginal cavity?
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4300 North Bottom Road.
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Mr. Schmidt, were you married at one point?
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Correct.
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Yes.
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And you noticed bleeding?
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Who were you married to?
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I was married to Christine Lohman.
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I did.
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So it must be a To be penetrated by penis, finger, and object in the anal area, the anal calves, them are the descriptions CL put forth, correct?
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How long were you and Ms. Lohman married?
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A little over two years.
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Were you together longer than that?
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Yes, 36 years.
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So you were together for 36 years and married for two.
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Yes. I want to talk to you a little bit about Tina. First, I'm going to hand you what's been marked as People's Exhibit 77. Do you recognize that person? Yes, that was my wife, Christine Lohman. We'd answer people's Exhibit 77 if they introduced evidence published to the jury. Mr. Ewing, any objection? No. The request is granted. You may admit people's Exhibit 77.
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I was unable to assess the rectum fully for the patient.
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Just assessing her immediate injuries.
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I understand. Them are the claims she placed forth, correct?
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That she was penetrated anally.
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By penis, fingers, penis, finger, and object.
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That is correct.
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There was no bleeding.
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There was no obvious bleeding. I was unable to fully assess the rectum. There could have been bleeding that I was unable to assess.
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And when you met with her and talked with her, not asking what she, but when you met with her and talked with her, were you able to see if she was crying and seemed to accept what her emotional state was?
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The rectum is common knowledge. The rectum is... a bit smaller in diameter than vaginal cavity and quite a bit more sensitive to expansion or penetration, wouldn't you say?
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Without objection, you may call it to the jury.
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Did Tina have children?
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Yes.
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How many children did she have?
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I'm unable to answer that question.
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She had four children.
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Did she have 14 grandkids?
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If I give you a simple scenario, if I try to penetrate this cup with this highlighter here, it's not apt to do any damage, correct? Whereas if I tried to take this small flex pin and try to penetrate this cap, it'd be more apt to do damage because it's small. It's a less expandable area. It's tighter. That'd be a correct assumption based on educational and professional opinions.
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Yes.
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And 17 great-grandchildren?
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And probably more, yeah.
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Was Christina big on the holidays?
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Yes, she was.
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Liked to buy Christmas presents?
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She loved Christmas.
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Loved Christmas.
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And you guys lived together at 4300 North Bottom Road here in Quincy, is it? Yes.
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I want to talk to you about the night of November 9th. That night or that morning, did you go to work?
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Yes. Where do you work? I own American Builders Supply.
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Let me talk about that for a second. Did Tina work with you at American Builders Supply?
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Yes, she did.
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You guys ran that business together?
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I mean, the anus is generally tighter than the vagina. It's smaller.
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Yes.
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For the 38 years that you guys were together?
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She was there not quite 38 years. She was there, I think she came on in 1993. But quite a while. Quite a while. Okay. You left for work that morning. I left for work that morning. Where did you go after work?
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Again, I'm, I'm unable to answer that question. And you could determinably nail or correct.
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I was unable to fully assess the rectum due to the patient's wishes.
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I'd like to go to page four of step two. Sorry, I apologize for bouncing around like this. I'm not a natural. If you go to Page four of step two, methods used by assailants. You have categories of weapons, punch, slap, kick, grab, held down, physical restraints, strangulation, bind, and vocal threats or use of ligature.
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But Tina Loman, she wouldn't get to see the joy and the looks of anticipation on the faces of those grandchildren and great-grandchildren. She wouldn't get to hear them say, Merry Christmas, Grandma, when they showed up at her house to open those presents. She wouldn't get to experience the joy of opening the presents that her husband and children had bought her.
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What time did you leave for work?
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I left work sometime after 5 o'clock, and I went to a farm at home. It was just before deer season, and I like to hunt deer, so I went over looking to see if there was anything I wanted to get before season opened up.
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Getting ready for deer hunting.
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Getting ready for deer hunting, yes. How long were you there? I'd say probably, I guess, a half hour, 40 minutes or something.
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And you went home after that?
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Yes.
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Got home around 6 p.m., give or take?
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On weapons,
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Yeah, it appeared to me that she was in shock. She didn't really have too much emotions going on, I guess.
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Yes.
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It was November night, 6 p.m. When you got home around 6 p.m., and you pulled another... Project leading, leading...
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You marked yes. That's obviously because the victim, as you describe, stated it was a knife, true?
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That's correct.
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All right, this is foundational purposes, so I will overrule that objection.
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And did she say what kind of knife?
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On the paper, it's noted a meat carving knife.
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When you got home around 6 p.m., did you notice anything unusual about your house?
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Meat carving knife. Meat carving knife. Thank you.
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I noticed that the garage door was open. There were some items on the floor in the garage. The car was gone. There were some tire marks in the yard. So I'm going to hand you, or I have the bailiff hand you, some photographs as we go through your testimony. And for the record, it's going to be People's 35 through 50, inclusive, and then People's Exhibit 80.
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And punch, slap, kick.
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What was that answer for that category there?
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It's marked on the exam of no.
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She was not slapped or kicked. Grabbed and held down. Did you answer that?
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It's marked on the paper as yes.
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Thank you. No physical restraints. No strangulation. And no burns. Correct. Chemical burns. We talked about chemical burns earlier on. Mr. Jones here. It's. clearly right here, burn, I would think that would follow your burns of most kinds, right? Wouldn't just be fire burns or gasoline burns of some kind.
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And I'm going to ask you to look through those. Tell me when you've had a chance to look through. Did you get a chance to go through all that?
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Yes.
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In a general sense, are those photographs of the exterior and interior of your house, your residence at 4300, 4300, that north bottom room, is that what they generally are?
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I would say that that would be the way that the patient would interpret that when I asked her the yes or no question. Thank you.
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Yes.
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And did those photographs show what you saw on November 9th, 2021, when you were in the residence and as you were going in?
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And if you go down to the category for post-assault hygiene activity, Down the second one, over to the right, ate or drank? Is that a yes or a no?
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A slap, a stack, if you will.
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Yes.
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Your Honor, we'd ask that those exhibits be introduced into evidence and leave given to publish them during the course of the rest of the questioning.
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Your Honor, any objection? Excuse me, what exhibits were there, Your Honor? 80, 81, and the ones that they own? 35 through 50, then 80 and 83. No objection, Your Honor.
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Yes, she drank.
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And that was previous to coming, obviously previous coming to the hospital, and maybe even at the hospital, true? Correct. And that states bay water, Bailey's on ice. So obviously watering Bailey's on ice.
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Yeah.
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Up on the screen is People's Exhibit 35, and actually you have a monitor there. It should be on the monitor as well. Can you tell us what this is?
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That's my home.
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True. Correct. And you also did a drug facilitated sexual assault.
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And you talked about the garage door. Is this the garage door that you were talking about?
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Then you looked at her physical injury.
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Yes.
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And you said when you got there, the garage door was open. Is that what we see here?
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Yes.
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And you said there were 10 things lying on the floor.
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DFSA. And that category holds subcategories loss of memory.
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Yes.
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And there wasn't a car in the garage. Is that correct?
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That's correct.
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Why did the fact that there wasn't a car in the garage and the garage door being open at 6 p.m. at night trouble you, concern you?
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And that was a no. Correct. Along with loss of consciousness.
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Well, my wife, Tina, drove the car, the Toyota Avalon, that would normally be parked there. And... Of course, the car was gone, and then I noticed the door was kicked open.
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nausea, and vomiting, and drug and alcohol use, correct? Correct. No. And so if you proceed on page four of step two, or excuse me, I'm sorry, page five of step two, I want to touch base on pertinent medical issues for forensic lab as it's in your documentation here.
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And we'll get to that in a minute. You said there was also some tire marks. Can you tell me where you saw those tire marks?
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Is that right? That's right. Did you also document those physical injuries? I did. Both in paper form and photographically?
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They were there by the bush there to the right of the garage.
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All right.
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We'll put up on the screen People's Exhibit 36.
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In pertinent medical history for forensic lab box, it has last menstrual period with a date and sexual contact within three days other than sexual assault. Correct. Correct. And last menstrual period, obviously unknown. 77 years old. True. True. And then you go down to the next sentence, sexual contact within three days other than sexual assault, excluding sexual assault claimed on 11-9-21.
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Are these the tire marks that you're talking about?
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Yes.
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And had those tire marks been in that part of the yard when you left that work?
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because on November 9, 2020, boy, she was kidnapped by the defendant, she was robbed by the defendant, and she was brutally and violently separated by the defendant. The defendant left Tina bruised and battered. He left her bleeding on the floor, her stand, emotionally and physically scarred, until she would die 33 days later on December 12, 2021.
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No. You told us that you also noticed that the door in the garage was broken.
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Is that right?
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Yes.
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Here on the screen, we have People's Exhibit 37. You talked about these items lying on the floor. Let's talk about those first. The items on the floor, was that unusual? Was that what the garage looked like when you left that for you?
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No.
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Tell us what was different.
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I mean, that would read what box need check mark.
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Well, the car would have been there, and those items there on the floor of the garage there would not have been there. The car would have been there.
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I'm sorry, I don't understand.
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Sexual contact within three days other than sexual assault. Obviously, you had to ask her this box, ask her this information. She stated yes or no in accordance to sexual contact within three days other than the alleged assault, right? Correct. And that was yes.
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Also in your garage, did you have some power tools?
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Yes.
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Specifically, did you have a chainsaw and a hedge trimmer?
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Correct. Did you take several photographs that reflected those injuries that you observed on November 9th, 2001? I did. I'm going to hand you what you marked as 19 through 32.
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Yes.
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Was the chainsaw and hedge trimmer in that garage when you left that morning?
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Yes.
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And as to anal contact and oral contact and condom use, them are all three no, correct? Correct. I'd like to touch base on anal contact real quick. She states no, and this is in reference to sexual contact within three days other than sexual assault. We reviewed page seven, the anal exam, and you obviously put patient inclined to obvious bleeding rectum.
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Yes.
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When you came that night at 6 p.m., was the chainsaw and the hedge trimmer in that garage? No. I'm going to show you what's been marked as People's Exhibit 15. Do you recognize that?
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No. No hammers or tools?
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That's my chainsaw.
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Chainsaw that was not in that garage?
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Yeah.
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When you got there on November 9th at 6 p.m.?
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That's correct.
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I'm going to show you what's been marked as people's exhibit 16. Do you recognize that?
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That's my hedge trimmer.
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The hedge trimmer that was in that garage when you left that morning and was gone that night? Is that right?
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I understand this is consensual here in a pertinent medical history for forensic lab. That's consensual. But that does coincide with not having any bargains on anything, correct? I'm going to object to this point. The witnesses multiple times testified that she was not able to complete a complete assessment of the anal exam based on convictions and issues. But she didn't, sir.
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Yes.
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You also told us that there was a car missing from the garage. It was Tina's car.
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Yes.
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Can you tell me what make and model that car was?
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It was a 2018 Toyota Avalon.
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What color was it?
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It was white.
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Do you know the license plate for that? If you don't, that's fine. I just don't.
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It's ABS for American Builders Supply. I don't remember the numbers on it.
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All right, so we're going to open with a little objection. Anybody answer? I'll state that again. Hurt in medical history for forensic lab. She states no on anal contact. True. Right. And that would coincide with page seven of anal exam. Patient declined. No obvious bleeding from record. If you didn't have anal sex, you'd most likely not have any marks.
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But the first three letters were ABS, and then there was a number after.
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Yes.
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Now, you told us that when you came into the garage, you noticed that a door had been kicked in. Is this the door that you're talking about?
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Yes.
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And is this People's 38? It's up on the screen now. We're looking at a view of that door.
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Yes.
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Looks like there's some damage by the lock and by the... Handle, is that fair to say?
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This is outside of the sexual assault.
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Yes.
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Also looks like there's some footprints on the door.
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Yeah. But that does coincide with them, right? No more...
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Yes.
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Were those, was that door damaged like that when you left that morning for work?
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I'm not understanding.
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Go ahead. I apologize. I may be worded wrong. I'm a little bit out of tune with this. Continuing on page five in general exam, the beginning of general exam. I'm sorry. I probably should have started this the first time. In the beginning of general exam on page five of step two, it says large area of bloody mucus was surrounding blood. The tachy? Tachy?
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No.
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Were the footprints on the door when you left that morning for work?
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No.
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People's Exhibit 39, kind of an angle view of that same door, is that right, sir?
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Yes.
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Again, was the door damaged at the deadbolt and the handle like that?
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No.
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And if we look behind the door, it looks like there's a hole in the drywall where the door's been forced open.
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The TQI?
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TQI. I apologize again. Patient states carpet cleaner was sprayed into her mouth after assault. There are no other descriptions in a general exam. And these are cranial descriptions. Cranial diagram, right?
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That was not there.
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People said it was 40 close up of that door showing how violently it was kicked open. Was it like that that morning when you left?
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No.
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It was like that when you came home at 6 p.m.?
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It's a facial diagram?
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Yes.
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And it also shows the head, too. I would say there's no other, I guess you could, in the page eight, it shows the head in general. There's no other markup, it's true.
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When you came inside...
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And you walked through that door. You walked through the garage that we just saw, and you walked through that damaged door.
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And I ask you to take a moment and look. Have you seen those photographs? I have. And are those photographs, the photographs that you took, they documented the injuries that you observed? They are.
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Did you see someone sitting on the floor?
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I saw my wife sitting on the floor in tears. Tell me about that. You said she was in tears. Was she crying? She was crying, and she told me that they raped her. Objection, Your Honor. Grouch. Testimonial. Overruled.
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On the face?
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On anywhere on the head. Anywhere on the inside of the mouth?
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Nothing that I have noted.
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Nothing. Okay. These are very serious accusations, I think you can keep, correct? Correct. And you stated you are familiar with Ruth? Correct. And you're able to tell fresh Ruth from older Ruth? Correct. Could you give reports a brief description of, say, the coloring of fresh Ruth versus the coloring of older Ruth? Who's in the filling already?
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When you heard that from your wife, who you'd been with for 38 years, did you notice anything sitting on the floor in the area around?
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Well, she was sitting on a, I guess it was a blanket or a quilt. And did you notice anything about that quilt? There was blood on it.
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Fresh bruising will be more of a dark purple, as in healing bruising will be a brownish or yellow.
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Up on the screen is People's Exhibit 41. And if we can orientate ourselves, that door that you walked in, where would it be in relationship to this photo?
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And in the pictures, if I make, if I bring the picture of the hand back up on the screen, you see right here, all around here, here, and all around the neck area, that would be considered light yellowing, brownish.
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Where that walker is, it would be to the north of that. Yes.
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So if we're facing the picture, you're basically walking in from the left side of the picture, fair to say?
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It looks like just her skin color.
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Yes.
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I mean, if you say it looks like her skin color, then it should probably appear as if. Judging on that side of the question, if you want to ask your question as a witness, she can do it, but it appears as if it's her skin color, right? Yes. And are these two colors here in this area and this area different?
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And you said that you saw your wife, Tina, sitting on the floor on a quilt. Is that the area that you saw her?
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Yes, there in front of that green chair, yes.
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Did you also notice a spray can and a knife on the floor?
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On November 9th, 2021, Tina was driving home when it was starting to get dark. She started to have car trouble. She must have been so scared, like anyone.
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Yes.
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And we can see that spray can and that knife on the floor.
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Based on the lighting of the picture.
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Yes. People's Exhibit 42, a close-up view of... A blanket, some bloodstains, and the can? Yes.
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Clearly. Or just based on the picture? Yeah.
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I'm not understanding what you're asking.
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On the lower fingers here, if I use my left hand, on the lower finger here, it seems to be a normal skin color such as white.
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I want to talk about that spray can, that 409 Target spray can. Was that on the floor when you left at 6 o'clock that morning?
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And then if you get up here above the knuckle, right here, and back here on the hand, it seems to be yellow.
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Any objection?
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No. People, 81, showing blood on the floor. That was the blood that was coming from your wife?
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I think what you're seeing is a difference in lighting in the picture.
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Yes. And what part of her body was it coming from?
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22.
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It came from underneath her lower region of her body, specifically her genital region. Yes. People's 43. Can you tell us what we're looking at here? That is a railroad spike that was converted into a knife. Did that knife belong to you and Tina? It belonged to me, yes. Was it stored on the floor like that? No, it was stored in a drawer. Was it on the floor when you left that morning? No.
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Yes. You stated lower knee for bruising, correct?
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It just says left knee.
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But you, just a few moments back, you stated.
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Oh.
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By pointing out here, this appears to be, you know, the kneecap right here. You know, the kneecap here. Then you have the lower knee. I'd say it's quite a bit higher up on the knee, the lower, Drew.
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It's the knee.
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Are you, you can tell them honestly. Are you familiar with the fact that CL had a right total hip arthroplasty?
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You told us you walked in after you saw those things that you saw.
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You heard Tina say that they raped me.
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I ate her condition. She was crying. She appeared to be emotional to you? Yes, she did. Sobbing? Yes. Did she tell you that he was worried they were going to come back? Yes, she did.
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Hip joint replacement? If you jog your memory. I don't recall.
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Do you know what a total hip arthroplasty is? I'm going to object at this point. It seems facts, not evidence. It's the worst question just to ask. I'll overrule. That's If you may answer the question, do you know what a sole hip arthroplasty is?
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Because of that, what did you do?
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I went into the bedroom and I got a handgun. What did you do with that gun? I brought the gun out and I gave it to Tina. And then I got my phone and I called 911. After you called 911, did you ask Tina what had happened to her? Yes.
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John, I object. Grounds? The death has no relevance in this case. It, uh...
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Yes.
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Can you explain that to us, please? Objection. Relevant. Sustained. Sustained. It's obviously a hip replacement, Drew. Objection. Do you have a relevance? I don't know that it was a question.
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And did she tell you what had happened to her?
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She said they raped, they raped me.
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And did she tell you how the rape started?
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So, Mr. Young, any more questions for this witness?
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She told me that she was, um, driving home on Cook's lane and she got to the, um, front or Bonanzanga and Cook's lane and the lights were not on in the car. And, um, She stopped there at the stop sign, and there was a man came and helped, went to help her to turn the lights on, and he got in the car with her and drove off with her. In the car? Yes, in the car. Did she want to go with him? No.
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Yes, sir. Did you review any other reports other than your doctor's information? Did you maybe review Dr. Finster's reports or the overall reports to come to any other decisions in your termination? No. Mr. Jones, when you're ready with your question. Thank you.
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Can you tell us your name, please, and if you could spell your last name?
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Ada Kagumba, K-A-G-U-M-B-A.
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No, they are.
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And if I can get everybody here, I just want to make sure that microphone sometimes works better the closer you get to everybody. Dr. Kagumba, do you have a particular specialty that you practice in?
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After the man got in the car and took off with her? Did Tina tell you where they went? She said they went up into the bottoms, the north bottoms.
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Yes, obstetrics and gynecology.
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And how long have you done that?
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People's Exhibit 19, string 32 will be admitted without objection.
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25 years.
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I want to talk to you specifically about November 16, 2021.
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On November 16, 2021, I apologize. On November 16, 2021, did you meet with a patient by the name of Christina? Yes. Was that the first time that you ever met with her? Yes. What was the nature of why she was coming to see you?
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And did she tell you while they were in that area, north bottoms, what the man made her do to her top?
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Yes.
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What did Tina say that the man made her do to her top?
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Thank you, Your Honor. She must have been so scared as any woman would be, driving home at night with car trouble, alone on a dark bottom road, and no one to help her. But then a power started. How do you think she felt? Was she relieved? Did she think she was going to get help? Was she scared? Was something bad about to happen? But she was 77 years old.
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She said that he made her take her top off.
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And did she tell you that he made her take her top off so that he could touch her breasts?
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Yes.
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For all the follow-ups, what was the reason? It was a follow-up after being seen in the emergency department following a sexual assault.
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After this man did that to her, did Tina say that the man forced her to perform oral sex on him?
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And you're not talking about what she said to her, but did you talk to Tina about what happened? Yes.
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Yes.
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Did Tina tell you what she thought was going to happen to her?
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She told me that she thought that they were going to kill her.
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What was her emotional affect? How did she appear to you?
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Because she was worried they were going to kill her, what did she say to them?
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She appeared to be in shock. Describe death. It's as if she was watching something that had happened to her and that she couldn't believe had happened to her. She talked like it happened to somebody. Yes.
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The first photograph I want to put on the screen is People's Exhibit 19. And looking at People's Exhibit 19, can you tell us who that's a photograph of?
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She told me that she told them that she had some jewelry up at the house and some money.
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At some point, did she also tell you that the male had made a threat to her about what would happen if her husband... She said, he said that if your husband's there, I'm going to kill you both. Tina then told you that he went to the house.
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Almost like in the third person. Yes. Is that fair to say? Yes. Did you examine her?
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Yes.
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Now, you understood that the actual act would have occurred about a week before that, is that right? Yes. When you examined her, did you notice injuries and a state of heat? Yes. Were you also given the opportunity to look at photos that were taken by Nurse Jacqueline Oglesley all on November 9, 2021?
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Yes.
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No. You're sure about that? Objection, Your Honor. I asked if you'd sort this all out or not. Let me have some redirect. Just two questions, Your Honor. All right. Let's go ahead and do that then. Sir, your wife didn't go into specific details about her sexual assault or rape with you, did she? Specific details aren't a great detail, fair to say. No.
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And when they got to the house, what did Tina say happened in the garage?
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She said that the male and there was a female there, that they got into an argument.
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And during the argument, Tina was able to get away?
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Yes. Specifically, I'm going to hand you some photographs and I'm going to ask you if these are the photographs you had a chance to observe. I've gone through them.
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Tina went into the house and she locked the door. And when she locked the door, what did she say the male did? Well, she went into the bedroom on the east side of the house and went to look for the handgun. But the handgun, I had moved from the nightstand because we had grandchildren up there. And I was afraid one of those grandchildren were going to get a hold of that gun.
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Dr. Kuguba, I want to talk to you first about the injuries to the outside of her body. When you examined her, did you notice bruising in a healing state on November 16th of 2021? Yes. And is it that bruising that you observed consistent with the photographs that you've had an opportunity to observe as far as the locations of those bruises, her hands, her knees, her buttocks?
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So I put it up high where they couldn't get to it. Couldn't find it. She couldn't find the gun. What did the male do to the door? The mail kicked the door in. And after the mail kicked the door in, what did Tina say happened next? She said she told him where the jewelry was. It was in a chest of drawers there in the bedroom.
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Christine Lohman.
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Yes. Objection. You're off the ground. I don't believe this movement here can base her decision off of other photos that somebody else has taken. She obviously did not take her own photos or do her own assessment of record. Here's a based on another physician's assessment. I am a physician. I'm overruling the objections.
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Is that how she looked when you saw her in the evening hours? It is. You talked about some injuries, and I first want to talk about bruising. Did you notice a bruising on her body? I did. Was there bruising in multiple locations?
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Up on the screen, we have People's 48, which has been introduced into evidence. Tina had jewelry in the chest of drawers. Is this where that chest of drawers was that had Tina's jewelry?
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Yes. Was that what the chest of drawers looked like when you were there at 6 o'clock that morning before you went to work? No. And when you were in the home, was there jewelry missing from the house? No.
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She is simply looking at the photographs and is testifying that the injuries she observed in healing on November 16th were consistent with the injuries that are depicted in those exhibits. And so there's no statement or hearsay that she's testifying about. She's a very photographic picture. Well, the objection is overruled in the answer to the question.
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There was no jewelry missing?
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No.
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Okay. I apologize. At 6 o'clock when you got back after you had talked to Tina, was there jewelry missing then?
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Yes. Yes, there was. After Tina...
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told this person about the jewelry, did Tina say that that person then threw her down some stairs to the basement?
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Again, the injuries that you saw with her hands, her knees, the bruising on her buttocks, the inner parts of her body, consistent with what you observed in the photographs you've had the opportunity to see. Yes. And I want to be clear, on November 16, 2021, you were not working at the behest of law enforcement, is that right?
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Yes.
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And tell me what Tina said about the basement.
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She told him that there was a safe down the basement.
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Do you, in fact, have a safe in the basement?
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Yes.
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What did Tina say happened with the safe in the basement?
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They went to the safe to the basement, and there's a board that covers the face of it, And that was moved out of the way. And Tina didn't know the combination to it. So the male went to try to open it up with the knob on the safe.
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I was not working at the behest of law enforcement.
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You were not attempting to collect any evidence? No. You were concerned with your patient's medical history and medical? Yes. You've also had a chance to look at People's Exhibit 31 and 32, showing the Vaginal area of Christina Lohman on November 9, 2021.
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Is that right? Yes. Are the injuries that you saw in People's Exhibit 31 and 32 consistent with sexual assault in your medical?
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And when he tried to open it up with the knob on the safe and he wasn't able to get into it, what did Tina say to him?
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She said that the safe was wired to the police department. And now the police are going to be coming.
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Yes. Thank you, Dr. Tugumba. That's all the questions I have. Do you have any cross-examination questions for this witness?
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People's Exhibit 49, is this your basement?
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Yes.
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And you talked about, I see a gray door here. Is that the safe?
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Yes.
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You talked about a white cover. Is that what you see here?
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Your Honor, Just a few. Possibly one or two.
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Yes.
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With the white cover on that safe when you left that morning?
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It was in front of the door on the safe, yes.
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Dr. Anna Kaguba, you did observe, obviously, a week later, what could be potential marks from a sex assault or an assault in general, right? Yes. But they're not definitely from them occurrences, true? Yes. In fact, you have no factual determination that they were, other than one's declarants or one's statement stating that they may have had these issues upon your review of them, right?
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Again, here we see a different angle of that sink door. That's the sink you're talking about, right?
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Yes.
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The knob there, the handles there.
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Yes.
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After Tina told the male that the safe was wired to the police and the police were coming, did Tina say that the man took her back upstairs?
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Yes. And when he took her back upstairs, what did she say occurred upstairs by that chair? She said he raped her.
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There was.
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You mentioned that she shared with you that there was a male and a female in the house.
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Yes.
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Did she talk to you about the female and specifically that knife that we saw?
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Yeah, she talked about the female and how the female had threatened to kill her with that knife.
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I use the word fresh bruising. Do you know what I mean when I say that? A recent bruise. A recent bruise. In your training experience, have you been able to tell the difference between bruises that are relatively recent and bruises that are days and weeks old? I am. The bruising that you observed on Christina Longman on November 9th, did the bruising appear to be recent or false? It did.
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And Mrs. Quincy, nothing bad happens in Quincy, right? In Quincy, when you have trouble, people stop, they pull over, and they help you. But instead of a random act of kindness, the defendant and his accomplice showed up. They showed up to commit an act of violence, an act of terror. of rape, every woman's worst nightmare on a dark bottom road. The defendant forced his way into Tina's car.
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The patient told me what happened, and I believed that the injuries she sustained fit with what she told me.
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They fit, but they could be from other incidents also. True. They could. Thank you. You're obviously a doctor. I respect your level of profession. The vaginal cavities. Can you tell us a little bit about healing when it comes to the vaginal cavity?
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Tina went to the emergency room that night?
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Yes.
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And maybe a week later, she went to see her OBGYN, Dr. Ada, if I remember that right.
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Yes.
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And you were with Tina pretty much every day from November 9th to when she passed away on December 12th.
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Yes.
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Those last month of her life, was she in pain?
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I'm not sure what you mean exactly.
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Yes, she was.
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She hurt from the injuries that she suffered?
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I mean, I'm human being. I don't have a vagina, obviously. But the vaginal cavity is one of the quickest healing parts of my true. I don't know that to be true. You don't know that to be true. But it does heal pretty quickly.
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Yes, she did.
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Did you see bruises to her?
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I saw some bruises and she hurt a lot on her tailbone. It's hard for her to sit. Yes. Hard for her to stand. Yes. Was she having difficulty? Yes, Your Honor. Grounds? Testimonial.
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I'm not sure what you mean pretty quickly. Mom.
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Was she having difficulty eating or drinking because of the burns in her mouth?
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Yes.
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Is it fair to say she was in pain until she died?
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The marks, when you did your exams, what stage did the marks appear to be as far as the healing state?
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Yes, she was.
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For the record, I'm having the bailiff bring out people's 50 and 51. Tell me when you have a chance to look at those. Do those photographs show that white Toyota Avalon that you, I'm sorry, 51 and 52. I apologize. People's 51 and 52. Do those show that white Toyota Avalon?
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Almost healed after a week, yes.
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And you've obviously seen sexual assault victims, correct?
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Yes.
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And if, say, I use this as an example. Say if a person was... penetrated with something the diameter of this cup. The diameter of this cup here is pretty decent size. It's pretty big. If somebody would... Judge, I apologize. I have to object. We're making a record here. He says a cup, and he says pretty big. I think the appellate court's going to want something more definite than pretty big.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Yes, it belongs to American Builders Supply.
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The company car that she drove?
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Yes.
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Your Honor, we'd ask that peoples 51 and 52 be introduced and published to the jury. Any objection?
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No, sir. Do you want people to be admitted without objection and be published?
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Except the front of the car and then the license plate, like you talked about, CVS.
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Yes. And peoples 52, the back of the car, singles. Yes.
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You can be more definite in describing for the record what cup you're using. The approximate size, Mr. Yon, will have a clear record per quart. Once again, I take this cup here. The cup's diameter is, I'd say, three, three and a half inches wide. If somebody was to drink by a cup, would that leave excessive markings? and probably most likely not be almost healed a week later.
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Going up to Bela, hand you people's 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 63, and 63. Have you had a chance to look at them?
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Yes. Let's start with people's exhibit 57. Do you recognize what's in that photograph? I'm going to ask you about it there on your photograph you've got in hand. Okay, hang on a minute. Okay, yes.
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Do you recognize that watch and bracelet?
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Yes.
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And who did that watch and bracelet belong to?
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She wasn't penetrated with a cup. She was penetrated with a penis.
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They belonged to Tina. Your Honor, we'd ask that People's Exhibit 57 be introduced into evidence and published. Any objection? Absolutely not, Your Honor. People's Exhibit 57 is admitted without objection. It may be public.
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Your penis.
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Yes, she told me.
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She told you, so that's 100% positive. Almost as if you were there, true?
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As her physician, I believed what she told me. That's my job.
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This watch and this bracelet belong to your wife, Tina?
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Yes.
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You believe it, but it's not a fact, truly.
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Have you seen her wear that watch and that bracelet on multiple occasions?
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Yes.
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True.
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It's what she told me and what I documented. Thank you. Thank you. No further questions?
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If you could look at the next picture, people 58. In that picture, there is a watch and a pen. Do you see that pen in the middle of the picture?
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No, sir. Not at all. Mr. Jones, any further direct, redirect?
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Yes.
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Do you recognize that watch and pen?
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No, thank you, Your Honor.
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Yes. God, we'd ask that people 58 be admitted into evidence and published to the jury. Any objection? Absolutely not, Your Honor. No objection. People's Exhibit 58 will be admitted and may be published to the jury. That watch? Yes.
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Had you seen Tina wear that watch?
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Yes.
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That hit. Can you tell me about that hit? How do you recognize that hit?
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If anybody has ever watched Star Trek before. I've seen Star Trek. We bought that at the Star Trek display out at the Las Vegas Hilton in Texas. I don't remember what year it was.
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The shape on that is Star Trek.
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Yes.
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It's the badge that the officers wear on them.
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Yes.
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And you and Tina were Star Trek fans?
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We were Star Trek fans.
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Can you look at the next picture, People's Exhibit 59? Do you recognize the items in that picture?
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The bruising that you saw on Christina Longman, did you take a photograph? I did. Here on Exhibit 20, we have a photograph of Ms. Longman's knee, is that correct?
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Yes.
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And did those belong to Tina as well?
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Yes, they did.
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We'd ask People's 59 to be admitted into evidence.
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Any objection? No. No, sir. The post-exhibit 59 will be admitted without objection and may be published to the jury.
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First, on the left side of this picture, there's a, I guess, brown, mystical color, what you call that, gold. Gold purse. Do you recognize that gold purse?
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Yes.
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Who did that gold purse belong to?
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It belonged to Tina.
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Had you seen her wear that purse?
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Yes.
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In the middle of the picture, we see checks, and it looks like an ABS. Is that, you recognize that check?
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Yes. That's from American Builders Supply.
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Your business?
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Yes.
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In fact, there's a P.O. Box, Quincy, Illinois. Do you recognize that P.O. Box and the Quincy, Illinois address?
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Yes.
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Your business?
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Yes.
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It's made payable to who?
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To Tina, Tina Lama.
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Your wife?
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Yes.
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And at the bottom of this, we see a voter ID card. Do you recognize the name, Christine Lohman, at the bottom of that?
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Yes.
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Is that your wife?
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Yes.
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There's an address on that voter ID card, 4300 North Bottom Road, Quincy, Illinois. Do you recognize that address?
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Yes, that's my home.
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And here there's a bag of jewelry. We showed you that bag of jewelry earlier. In preparation for trial, is that right?
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Tina thought it was about taking money and jewelry from her. She thought the defendant was going to kill her, so she told her she had more stuff back at her house. The defendant's accomplice followed them and hurled another car. But the defendant was not just satisfied with money or jewelry. The defendant wanted more from the 77-year-old great-grandmother.
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Yes.
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Did you recognize that jewelry in that bag?
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Yes.
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And who did that jewelry belong to?
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60?
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60. Hang on a minute here. Yes. Specifically, is there a rosary in the middle of that? Injection, Your Honor. Grounds? Bleeding. All right. Overruled. Again, it's foundational. Specifically, is there a necklace in the middle of that picture? There's a rosary in there.
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That's correct.
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And can you tell us what we observe in that photograph?
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Well, I know it's a rosary. I just didn't want to use that word. So, is there a rosary in that picture?
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Yes.
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Did you recognize that rosary?
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Yes.
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Who did that rosary belong to?
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It belonged to Tina's. We'd ask that people 60 be introduced into evidence in public. Any objection? Objection, Your Honor. All right. Crowns? It's my jewelry. It's my rosary. All right. I'm going to admit people's exhibit 60 over objection. Had you seen Tina with that rosary before? Yes.
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It appears to be a fresh bruise on her knee.
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People 61 is a close-up of that same rosary. You reckon again the same rosary?
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Yes. We'd ask that 61 be introduced and published. Any objection? Once again, the same objection, Your Honor. Any grounds for the objection? It's my jewelry. It's my rosary. Commit the people's exhibit 61 over objection.
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In the center part underneath?
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When you last saw Tina with that rosary, was it broken like that?
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Yes.
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No.
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I'm going to have you look at people's agubits, 62 and 63, and ask if you recognize both of those.
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People's Exhibit 21. We have photographs of Christine Malone with his left hand. Is that right? Correct. Can you tell us what we're looking at here and what you noticed in your sexual assault examination?
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62 and 63? Yes. Yes, that's Tina's purse.
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And again, the property in that purse, you recognize as belonging to Tina?
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Yes, what I can see, yes. Your Honor, we'd ask that people 62 and 63 be introduced and published to the jury. Any objection? No, Your Honor. People's Exhibits 62 and 63 are admitted without objection and may be published to the jury.
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Again, the gold or brown purse that you had seen your wife wear this time, people's 62, correct?
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Yes.
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And people's 63 saying the gold and brown purse is U.S. currency inside the purse.
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And then the jewelry, the check, and the voter ID card that you went to the summit, correct? Yes. Yes.
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Were all the things that we just saw in the photograph, were all those things missing on November 9th at 6 p.m.
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when you arrived at the house? Yes. And were they, to the best of your knowledge, all in the house when you left for work that morning? Yes. Before November 9th, 2021, have you ever heard the name Bradley on the floor?
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No.
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Have you ever seen Bradley Young before?
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No.
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Have you ever had any contact with Bradley Young?
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No.
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Have Bradley Young ever been in your house?
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No.
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No. No. No.
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No. No.
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The ever-touching thing in your house where it defiles would leave that safe. Have you ever touched that safe to your knowledge?
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No.
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The car that we saw that Mike told you to have on before November 9th, 2021, to your knowledge, had Bradley Yon ever driven that car?
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No.
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Have you ever had possession of that car?
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No.
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Would Tina give him that car?
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No.
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Would Tina give him her purse?
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Objection, Your Honor. Crowned? The witness does not know whether or not such person, Tina, CL, gave him the car or has ever been in the home or what Tina may have done outside of his presence. All right. I will overhaul the eviction as to the question asked regarding to this witness's, to the best of his knowledge, head. Bradley Young ever been to the house or know Keaton Lohman?
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It appears that she had fresh bruising on her hand.
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As the defendant drove Tina's car back toward the house as they were being followed by the accomplice, the defendant reached over, grabbing Tina, and forced the penis into her mouth. When they arrived at Tina's house, Tina was able to get away. She was able to run inside, lock the door, while the defendant and the woman with him, his accomplice, were in the garage. But the defendant wasn't done.
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The state will sustain the objection as to the vehicle and purse questions. Just the state reframe. The best of your knowledge, did your wife give the vehicle to Bradley Young?
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Talking about discoloration, bruising from the bottom of the hand to the top and then across the top of the hand. Correct. And even on the left side of the left hand. Correct. People's Exhibit 22, also a photograph that you took showing both the left and right hands of Christina Lohman. Correct.
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No.
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The best of your knowledge, did your wife give the purchase to Bradley Young?
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No.
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To the best of your knowledge, did she give her voter ID card to Bradley Long?
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No.
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To the best of your knowledge, did she give her Star Trek pin that you and she bought at Boston Vegas to Bradley Long?
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She loved that. No. Her watch, did she give that to Bradley Long to the best of your knowledge? No. Thank you, sir. That's all the questions I have. Mr. Young? Mr. Zeman? Mr. Young. Yes, sir. Mr. Smith? Yes. I apologize for having to be here today. However, that is not under my control. I understand it's a difficult time for you and your family. I'm sure you prefer not to be here.
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Jackson, Your Honor, I need to ask a question. All right. Mr. Yon, if you could ask your questions of this witness. You stated your name is Timothy Schmidt, obviously, correct? Yes. And you're in occupation. You're 60. I'm 66 years old. And your occupation is American Builders Supply, which you own. Yes.
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um and obviously your relation to cl was is was husband correct yes um you stated that you've known cl for approximately or been with bit we're we're engaged in relationship with cl for approximately 36 years true yes and been married for two yes um
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So, you own your own business, true?
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Yes. You're obviously a very smart man, educated. I will not take that from you. Your memory is pretty swell, would it not be? Pretty good.
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I can do that. You do remember the evening of November 9th? Yes. And you stated that
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You left work sometime around a bit after 5 o'clock. Yes. Could you determine maybe potentially 15-minute range of how late, the length of that? Objection, Your Honor. Asked and answered. The witness said it was around 5. Around 5. So what will the objection he may answer if he knows? Yes. Would you repeat that again?
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Could you give a close description of the approximate time within maybe five or ten minute range of the time of leaving your home? I mean, excuse me, leaving your place of business. It would have been sometime after five o'clock. Maybe 515, 520. Well, it probably wouldn't have been that late. It would have been closer to right after five o'clock. Okay, so it's 505, 510. Yes. Thank you.
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And, uh, you stated that you were at farm and home for approximately 40 minutes, correct? I was at farm and home for, for some time. I don't have the exact amount of time it was. Yes. And then you wrote, uh, you, you, upon leaving farm and home, you arrived at your house, your residence approximately 6 PM a bit after. Yes.
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Um, And you observed tire marks also in your yard. Yes. They weren't normal. No, thank you.
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And again, can you tell us what you noticed in your examination of her left and right hand and her left forearm?
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You stated what the garage looked like that morning. Mr. Smith, was the garage any different than when you arrived home? Well, the car was in the garage when I went to work. Okay, and so she was still at home when you went to work? Yes. Upon arriving home, did you pull into the garage? Yes, I believe I did.
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He wasn't going to let Tina get away. He kicked in the door to her house, breaking down the door, leaving a shoe print, and the nightmare for Tina continued. The defendant stole money and jewelry from inside Tina's house. He pushed her down the stairs and he tried to get into her basement safe. Then the defendant bent Tina over a chair in her living room. He shoved his penis into her vagina.
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And you parked probably, possibly, potentially in the parking space you normally use, which is to the right of that pile. Thank you. And... could you tell us maybe when you noticed that door, the inner door that had been kicked in, did you notice that maybe before you got out of your truck or instantly? I didn't notice it until I got up to it.
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Okay. Thank you.
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But it was open, correct? Yes. Mr. Smith, I apologize for having to go into these details again. I'm sure you did not want to rehash them. Um, You walked inside and your wife's CO was sitting on the floor, right? Yes. And as stated, that was in front of the chair? Yes. And she was sitting on the quilt, as you said? Yes. That was on the quilt? She was sitting on the quilt, yes. Okay, thank you.
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There was fresh bruising to all parts.
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Do you remember what your wife was wearing by any chance? No, I don't. She was wearing some tackle. She had some clothing on, but I don't remember exactly what she had on, no. Pants, shirt, all? I'm not sure exactly what she had on. You don't remember her having bottoms on? Objection, Your Honor. Asked and answered. The witness has said he doesn't remember.
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Again, looking at discoloration of her right hand and up to her right wrist and her left hand. Upper left forearm, fair to say.
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We've gone at it three different ways, Mr. Yon, so I'm going to sustain the objection. The witnesses testify as he does not recall what she had on. Thank you, Your Honor. Mr. Smith, I understand you're in home building, American Builders Supply. You're probably educated in home building and whatnot. Could you tell us approximately how far from the door that chair might be?
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I'm not sure exactly how far that is from the front door. Maybe 20 feet, 15 feet. It would be farther than that. And upon walking in, you state that you observed a can and a knife on the floor, correct? When I got into the house, I saw the can and the knife on the floor, yes. Could you describe, perhaps, the location of the cannon at night? They were over in the kitchen, kitchen area.
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Upon answering, could you give a recollection of the events that occurred upon your answer? Judging calls for an end. Overruling me to answer the question. Would you repeat the question? If you would, would you relate once more the turn of events as you entered the home? Would... What procedure you took, how you went about the situation? I walked into the house.
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That's correct.
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Was the bruising contained to her upper body or was there bruising on her lower body as well?
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I saw my wife sitting on the floor in tears, and she told me they raped me. And then you went on it to find a firearm for it? I went in, and I got a firearm. She told me that she was told that they would be back. Okay, and that's that firearm you... Where did you retrieve that firearm from? I got it from the bedroom. That would have been... Closet in the bedroom. The south bedroom, correct?
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One night in 2021, Christine's life was changed in the most horrific way. A man named Bradley Yon and a female accomplice terrorized her first in her car, then in her home. Yon's accomplice, 33-year-old Karen Blackledge, pled guilty to home invasion and criminal sexual assault and received two 20-year sentences. She will have to serve 85% of that time.
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It would be a bedroom on the east side of the house. Where the chest of drawers was. Yes, sir. And then you proceed back to your wife and you gave her the firearm for protection, correct? Yes. Then you... I believe in your statement, you stated that you then called the police. Law enforcement. I called 911, yes. Do you remember right about what time that may have been?
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There was bruising on her lower body as well.
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How long it was after you arrived? It wasn't very long. Could you give a approximate minute length? It was only a few minutes. So you... You obviously talked to her for a small amount of time, retrieved the firearm, walked to her, and then you went out to retrieve your phone from your truck, correct? Yes. She needed an ambulance or she needed medical attention. Okay.
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Exhibit 23 shows both the left and right knee of Christina Lohman. We saw a close-up of the right knee already. Here is the left leg. Can you tell us what you noticed in your training experience as a sexual assault nurse examiner?
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In your statement, you stated that your wife was drinking some type of liquid when you arrived home. I'm going to object at this point with this statement. Witness didn't testify to that, so I'm not sure what statement he's referring to. Sustained. Mr. Schmidt, you made a statement, correct? A video statement? What's that? You made a video recorded statement, correct?
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He shoved his penis into her mouth.
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With officers of Adams County Sheriff's Department? Objection, Your Honor. The improper impeachment has not been confronted with that statement. Sustained. And you stated you don't remember the clothing you were wearing? Objection, asked and answered. Sustained. At the time calling 911, could you tell us approximately how long it was before officers arrived? To your best estimated guess.
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I don't know exactly. It wasn't very long. They responded pretty quickly. And you made that call at 6.09 p.m.? That's true? I don't remember exactly what time it was. You stated that C.L., your wife, said that she had been robbed. sexually assaulted and hijacked.
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Could you potentially go into a bit more detail as to what she stated to you upon the minutes of being there with the police or before you made the time? She told me she had been raped. And I went and got the phone, and I went out in the garage, and I called the police department. I called 911. Okay. So you made that call from the garage, or did you? I made it from outside the house.
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And then when the defendant was finished using music, his twisted purposes disappeared. he sprayed her mouth and body with carpet cleaner. While the defendant was doing all of these things, robbing her, assaulting her, his accomplice, the woman that was with him, was holding a knife and threatening Tina's life. After the defendant finished robbing Tina of her dignity, he fled.
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I went out to see if anybody else was coming back, and I called police. I called 911. Out in your garage? Out in the garage. Mr. Smith, is it possible that that be false information? Objection, Your Honor. Claimed. Your Honor, there is a 911 call that shows... Objection, Your Honor. The objection's been sustained. You'll need to ask your questions to this witness.
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Then it was a very brief conversation. Correct. Objection, Your Honor. Which conversation? The conversation with your wife. Hold on. When there's an objection, I'll need to address either sustained or overruled. And Mr. Young, I'm going to sustain the objection and ask you to ask a more specific question. Are you aware that your wife, CL, stated that you were at home? Objection, Your Honor.
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There was bruising to the Knee as well.
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Improper appeasement. And that will be sustained. The floor plan of your home where CL was located, sitting on that floor... And it pictures that it appeared to be a very slim path in between the chair and the trash can over the wall. If you may, I assume that path was clear for you to walk through in order to retrieve that gun? Isn't that better? Eastern better? Yes.
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Not enough for me to get through. Nothing else before there, right? Well, the... The cleaner was on the floor, but it wasn't right there in the hallway where I walked through. No. All right. So the hallway was clear of debris, trash, clothing, or anything else that may have obstructed your path to this room to get to this gun besides the fan and cleaner, correct?
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Both. Both of them.
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And again, that bruising appeared in your transcripts to be relatively... Correct.
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I walked straight into the east bedroom and retrieved the firearm. Your Honor, would you direct the witness to ask you the question, please? If you could rephrase the question, maybe he's not understanding what you're asking. That walkway that you had to walk through, which is in between the chair and the trash can, they're in the pictures that we observed. I believe exhibit 45 and 42.
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That's a very similar pathway, Mr. Smith. I'm assuming the walkway was clear of grease, trash, clothing, or anything else that may have obstructed your path to this room to get to this guy, Greg, besides the key. I believe there were some other items there on the floor, but it did not obstruct me from going in there. Thank you.
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Was there also...
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Upon calling 911, you said you were in the garage when you called 911. Did you remain in the garage until police arrived, waiting for them? No, I went back into the house. And could you tell us how you proceeded from that point on? I checked on my wife to see if she was okay, and I looked out the windows to see if anyone was coming.
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bruising and injuries to the patient's, to Christina Lohman's buttock. There was. The next slide is going to be a black slide because of the nature of the photograph. It's Fecal Exhibit 24, if we ever go out to look. Do you feel people's Exhibit 24 is correct? Correct. It's a photograph of Christina Lohman's buttocks and upper part of her thigh, should we say? Is that right? Correct.
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So you were potentially back, or I'll reword that, so you weren't back as much through the windows, correct? Yes. Do you have any idea what windows in front of your home that would allow officers coming? There's a set of windows there in the kitchen. in front of the sink that you can look out to the north of the house. A single set or a double? It's two windows.
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Are you sure you did not stand there holding her hand? Objection, Your Honor. You're staying. Mr. Smith, can you describe the item here that I can call specifically having the same age of age here? Objection, Your Honor. Valid. A sustained histrionic, you can direct your question to a specific chair and narrow it down for him so he can give you the answer you're looking for.
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There is a green chair, a plant chair, that your wife, C.O., wants to have a big secret in front of when you mentioned Bob Grevin. Yes. And do you have any of all some of the items at that time that were in the vicinity of that chair as far as furniture, maybe from their places?
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Well, there would have been an ottoman that would have been off to the side, and there was a table between that chair and another chair. Would it be safe to say that you were right in front of that table? Or was you right in front of the table at the time? It was moved out of the way, but I don't remember exactly where it was at.
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He fled with Tina's purse. He fled with her jewelry. He took her money. He fled with Tina's car. He evened Tina's rosary. Then he went across the river to Hannibal and he played video poker. When Tina's attempt arrived home, he found Tina on the floor crying and bleeding, crying that she'd been raped and her body. Next to Tina was the knife that her life had been threatened with.
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You said you were back and forth to your wife when you found your wife to the window. When you were at your wife's side, what did you do to the best of your knowledge or memory? I gave her a hug. You gave her a hug. Mr. Smith, you stated that right next to the chair in the center of the floor was a can of beer. In the exhibit, number 42, it appeared to be
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somewhat right there dead center of the aisle going towards the eastern bedroom. When you walked back and forth there, you did not disturb that game by any chance? No, not, not, no. You should, uh, there's a possibility that you can go. So we can look pretty calm before calling 911 or before it peaks around. Is that the situation? No. It's not. I called 911. So you didn't Objection, Your Honor.
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Asked and answered. Sustained. Mr. Stenner, are you the only person identified on the 9-1-1 call? Objection, Your Honor. Speculation and relevant. Mr. Stenner, I don't know how the witness would know who was identified on the 9-1-1 call. Your Honor, you do the 9-1-1 call. And again, the objection sustained. I don't know how he would know if he's the only one identified on the 911 call.
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And during the time of 911 call in the garage, he was assessed unsolicited by yourself, right? There was no one else there. No, it was me. Thank you. This would kind of, if I may, pledge criminal acts, something you'll never forget, right? No, I will never forget it. And you're assured by your dead wonder that you have to send your honor to the state.
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Mr. Schmidt, I'm confused as to the answers I'm asking about this 911 call.
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Could I introduce the 911 call, please? Is he asking me, Your Honor? Is there any objection? Well, Your Honor, there's no foundation for the 911 call. This witness has not been... So, yes, we object to the 911 call being played without the proper foundation by this defendant. So, Mr. Young, if you'll lay the foundation for introduction of the 911 call with this witness.
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Sorry, there's a court report you've got to see, sir. And that photograph shows a bruising and abrasions to other legs of the body. Is that fair to say? That's correct. Governor, if I could have the bailouts approach the jury based on the nature of that photograph and pass that to the jury.
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Your Honor, the foundation is Mr. Snake has stated that he made a 911 call. He's obviously called... I believe that foundation is enough. Finding that is not enough foundation. When police arrived, your wife, she had something on top. I'm not sure. I don't think she, she, she has something on top, but nothing on her bottom.
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And, uh, she did not move from that location, right? No.
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So essentially she was bare of clothing. Yes. Do you recall how it is that she was removed from that floor and that she got up from the floor? No. You do not recall the deputies having to? Objection, Your Honor. The witness has already testified. He doesn't know how she got up off the floor. It's a cross-examination, so overall, you may ask the question.
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Do you, Mr. Smith, recall the deputies having to assist her in getting help to the floor?
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Or is it a possibility she just remained there? She was on the floor for a while.
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I'm not sure. I don't know how she got up. To your recollection, could you tell us the secret events after the arrival of law enforcement? Enforcement. I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question. To your best recollection and remembrance, could you tell us the sequence of events that happened upon the first arrival of Walker? I don't remember all the details with it, no.
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They did go over and deceive my wife. And you were present, correct? I was there, yes. Did you tell us where you were when you had a stitcher down? I don't remember. Let me see if I can get what I've got. I assume they did a quick search of your home to make sure there was no potential threat to the right door. Is he secure, though? No, I don't remember.
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Yes. Publish that directly through juror observation fashion photo.
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Mr. Smith, do you know any name of the first responder? No. And are you associated or familiar with any of these officers that were at your home this night? No. You know none of them? No. You're not aware of or familiar with Mr. Wagner, Sheriff Wagner, or Chief Deputy Sam Smith, or Mr. Goodwin? No. Do you remember speaking to an officer in his lodge about an important issue concerning this matter?
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So you're on People's Existence 25, the lower part of Christina Lowen's thighs, backside of her thighs.
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Your Honor, I have to object to that. I will sustain the objection. You're asking this witness to decide what you might be thinking was an important matter. He may not agree with that. So if you want to rephrase your question. I apologize. I just don't want to leave her. Well, in cross-examination, that's exactly what you're supposed to do, Mr. Yon, but go ahead.
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Tina gave her, Tim, her husband, gave Tina, because Tina was so terrified the defendant and his accomplice were going to come back. And he called 911. Tim asked Tina to tell him what happened. And she relived that nightmare again. As she told him how she had been violated, how she had been robbed, how she had been left bloody and bruised on that floor.
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Do you remember speaking to a deputy, specifically a female deputy, About your cards, your bank accounts, your monetary value in your garage. No. And you remained at your home until about what time? The best you remember? I don't remember. Or were you there the rest of the night? No, I went to the hospital. My wife went to the hospital and I went there after that.
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My wife went to the hospital, and I drove there on my own. Thank you. And your wife went to the hospital to collect evidence. Objection, Your Honor. Speculation. Sustained. Is it true that your wife initially did not want to go to the hospital? I don't remember what she said. I don't know. There was a 911 call. There was a 911 call.
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If I may, I'd like to object real quick. For the previous time, I had copies of 24 and 26. I spoke to Ms. Keck earlier, telling her that the numbers were changed on them. And she took the copies I had, and I have not been given copies back since to observe.
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Thank you.
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So there were no medical emergency technicians ready? No. Thank you. You did not recall her diagnostic medical service? No. However, at a later time, you did go to the hospital with your wife. Yes, you did. Just a few. I went to the hospital, yes. You went to the hospital by yourself or? I went by myself. You did not take her? I did not take her, no. I think.
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Mr. Smith, these claims placed forth, how would you view them? Injection, Your Honor, relevant, distinct. You stated that your wife claims she was raped, right? Yes, she said she was raped. And that was the only thing she told you at the time, correct? Yes. You've testified to jewelry being your lives to several other issues. Mr. Schmidt, is that reasonable to do it?
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Did she feel ashamed about what had happened to her? Yes. And she didn't want to go to the hospital because she was ashamed of what had happened. Is that fair to say? I object, Your Honor. I withdraw the question, Your Honor. The question is withdrawn. The jury should disregard any further recross based upon the questions just asked. Mr. Young? No, Your Honor. Thank you, Mr. Jones. No step down.
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Is it in your reasonable belief? Is it logical of any human being to deny services such as medical services and to not have them come to the scene? Objection, Your Honor. Speculation irrelevant. Objection sustained. Can you rephrase the question? No, I don't want to rephrase the question. Obviously not.
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Did your wife, in reference to the knife, did your wife maybe explain to you what time male or female were able to gain access to this knife? No. Earlier, you stated that she told you, related to you that she was able to run into the house and the male and the female were in an argument. She was able to run into the house and make it to the bedroom and to defend it.
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myself, lest you have come in and demanded your rent and money? She said she ran into the bedroom and, yeah, she said that the defendant, the man that came into the house, wanted to know where the jewelry was at. You also stated that she related to you that she told the suspect Potentially defended that she had money at home, right? That she would give them? Yes.
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So she sent copies of these photographs, and she sent these, mentioned these photographs, and she said she sees them. And first step, we took those to him at one point and showed us these photographs. And there's no one searching for these. She knows it's photographs, and she sees them.
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And she didn't reference jewelry at the time? She said she had jewelry and she had money at the house. Mr. Smith, briefly, briefly one more time. Could you relay the actions that your wife stated that happened to her? Objection. Asked and answered. We've covered this, I think, three times now. Sustained the objection. Asked and answered.
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For the weeks after her assault, Tina was in pain, both emotional pain and physical pain. She never had the opportunity to recover because on December 12, 2021, Tina's heart broke. Tina won't be able to take that witness in. She won't be able to tell you what the defendant and the accomplice did to her.
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You've also stated previously early on in your testimony that your wife relayed to you that she was thrown downstairs, correct? Yes. Moments ago, you just said she was only raped. No. I will strike the comment by Mr. Young and will instruct the jury to disregard such.
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Mr. Young will be cautioned to ask the questions of the witness and not to attempt to testify or make argument until the appropriate time. Your wife stated that in the collar, the male reached over and grabbed her, I believe, was finally her. And then she placed his penis in her mouth.
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Correct? No. It's not.
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So she never told you that her mouth placed his penis in her mouth anywhere in Clareport? I'm sorry, would you start over with that again? In your earlier testimony, you stated that your wife relayed to you that the metal in the car before arriving to the home reached over and was touching her, finally her, and then proceeded to put his penis in her mouth. Yes.
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And was that, are you aware of where that may have been? Were they stopped? Were they still driving? I don't know. And that mental suspect stated, if your husband's there, I'm going to kill you both. Correct? Yes, she said that. Mr. Schmidt, I don't know. There's not only one firearm in your home, right? In fact, there's several, right? There is more than one firearm in my house, yes.
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And when the grandkids are not around, as you said, you try to keep them out of reach of grandkids. These firearms are randomly placed in the home, right? I never said that. Thank you. And Tina did not, excuse me, I apologize, CL did not tell you where she was at at the approximate time when Neil came through the door? She did not tell me exactly what time that was, no.
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Your Honor, that's irrelevant right at this moment. I'm entitled to have that here at the moment. I've had them for the last year until just about an hour and a half ago. I'd like to view them too. I'd like to view them, but I need to. Well, Mr. Young, I'm going to overrule your objection.
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She did not give you an approximate location as to where she was in the house? Well, she ran into the bedroom. Now, after she locked the door, now exactly how long that took... And I don't know. It couldn't have taken very long to run from the door into the bedroom. And your wife is, she's a 77-year-old woman, I understand. Wow. And she had any surgical operations such as hip replacements?
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Yes, she had a hip replacement. And is she apt to run often? Well, no, she didn't run, but this fine. I observed a walker at your home. You stated there's a walker, an assistant device for people who tend to have issues walking. At times, she did use a walker, yes.
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Upon being thrown down the stairs in a violent fit, a violent rage, as that does not happen, friendly like, or as a play of sports, upon being thrown down the stairs, did she state any further events in reference to proceeding further after that? Would you repeat that?
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After being thrown down the stairs, she did not describe to you what happened after that, besides the fact that they went safe, correct?
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Yes.
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Instead, her husband will tell you what Tina told him that night when he found her crying and bleeding on their living room floor. about what happened on November 9th, 2021, but you will get to see the photographs that were taken at Blessing Hospital by the nurse, Jacqueline Oglesby. The photographs of Tina's mouth, where the defendant had sprayed her with carpet cleaner.
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And, uh, Mr. Schmidt, I'd like to ask you about that safe. That safe is obviously, it's been stalled, built into the wall, and it is usually covered at probably all times, correct? Yes. And is there anyone else that would be able to touch that safe, that safe handle or anything about that safe? Maybe the partition or the board that was covering.
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Does anyone else ever operate with that safe or go into it? I would be the only one. You'd be the only one. So grandkids aren't apt. I'm sure they've seen it, but grandkids aren't apt. regularly touch and pull the board all the time, that giant, right? No.
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You stated earlier, you testified that your wife related to you something about locking you safe permanently and that the police are on their way now because they have a notification of that safe if it's the wrong combination, correct? Correct. Would you repeat that?
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You stated earlier in your testimony that your wife related to you that she told the suspect or suspects that they had locked the safe because it was wired to the police station forever. She told me she told the suspect that the safe was wired to the police department. Yes. And then they proceeded to stare. That's what she said, yes.
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You've already not objected to the introduction of those exhibits here for purposes of trial, and you can observe what's on the screen with Mr. Jones and the witness as they testify. And if you need those exhibits, they will be available for you during cross-examination to use yourself. The lesson from the objection is overruled.
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And I'm sure you've had other conversations in the time after the alleged offense. On top of the initial conversation with her at that time, she did not say anything further as to any other events that happened upon going upstairs. Objection, Your Honor. The witness has already testified that she told him they went upstairs and bent her over her chair and raped her again.
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That's what the witness testified to. So now the defendant here is trying to confuse the witness by misinterpreting his previous testimony. I'll sustain the objection if you could rephrase or re-ask the question. Perfectly honest. Mr. Young, I thought you were asking this witness about any other conversation he had had with the victim about her description of what happened.
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So if you could pinpoint the witness with your question as to the answer you're looking for, then hopefully you'll get the answer you're looking for. And she's, excuse me, I'll skip past that question and continue on. She stated that they proceeded upstairs, right? Yes. And the mail fits her open. The chair, she raped my wife. She told me she was raped.
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Mr. Smith, earlier you stated that she related to you that she put that over the chair. I don't remember saying that. Your wife, I'd like to ask you about her being, about her personal mentality. You were on Zoom. You were around her daily. If I make the snub sheet, the CL...
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was a sharp person, meaning not only smart, but intelligent, crafty, ingenious, of a stable mind, consistent in her manner of everyday life. Would you agree that my assumption is accurate? Jackson wrote it relevant and sustained as being irrelevant as well as a compound question. Your wife did not suffer from any dementia at all, Blackie. No. So she would have remembered things pretty well.
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Objection. I would call for speculation on the part of Miss Whitman. I don't know if he can answer the best of his knowledge. Would you repeat that? So her memory was actually pretty good, right? It was pretty good. Yeah. Maybe. Objection. Again, we're talking about what was eight years ago. Sustaining the objection.
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Mr. Smith, I'd like to ask you a question or two about your Toyota Avalon, the white one with the license plate of ABS, I believe 1706. Could you tell me what year that was? It's the best year of remembrance. Roundabout. I believe it was a 2018. And that automobile did not have self-propelled autopilot driving installed in its model, did it? No. Meaning it did not drive itself, obviously.
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The photographs of Tina's vagina, where the defendant had shoved his penis inside of her. The photographs of Tina's body, where she is showing that she had been left bruised and beaten. Tina won't be able to come here and tell you about the pain. She won't be able to tell you about the humiliation she suffered. But he will get to answer Ada Kagumba, Tina's doctor.
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Thank you. Is it true that your wife stated that the female in this criminal equation was the worst of the two? Yes. Mr. Smith, I'd like to ask your opinion. Based on your knowledge and testimony, based on life, based on what your wife has related to you or had related to you, First, I apologize, I'll backtrack.
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And page exhibit 25, bruising on both the the upper backside of Christina Lohman's thighs on both the right and left side, I'm afraid to say. Correct. And is the bruising contained on the interior of both the right and left thigh?
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Your wife stated the female was verbally violent and threatened her many times, correct? She said the, yes, she did. And that was all other than rummaging through your house, ransacking you, and stealing everything, correct? Yes, she said the female did, yes. And I'll reiterate for you, I'm going to stay on. Do I have to stay in the middle of the river downstairs to meet her? That's right.
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Correct. Yes. Back to my original question. Based on life and being a human being and the relevance of what your wife relayed to you, in your eyes, what do you see of worse? The male or the female? I'm checking your honor. Relevant speculation. Improper opinion. You are aware that the female was simply supposed to be only verbally wound, Rick? The female threatened her with a knife.
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Verbal threats. Verbal threats, yes. Thank you. Did your wife ever state anything about the female touching her? I don't remember for sure what she all said. Generally... I'm the owner. Yes. No, we used, we each used our own vehicles. or the two different vehicles that were owned by the company. Is it possible that at times C.L. would not even go to work? Objection, Your Honor. Relevance?
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On sustained. I recently stated C.L. left before you that day. I don't know if it reminds you that before you went to farming home. Objection, Your Honor. He never said that C.L. was at work with him that day. I would sustain. I don't recall that being testified to. Mr. Smith, did your wife Drink alcohol. Objection, Your Honor. Relevance? I'll sustain.
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I don't find the relevance in the question, Your Honor. Mr. Schmidt, did your wife have any markings on her body that you could observe upon entering the home that were not mostly there? Are you aware of that? I don't remember if she had any other markings on her or not. You gave us our 36 years, obviously, though. Did she have any temporary confidence in her body?
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In other words, it's on the insides of both of them.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Such as maybe skin depredation or birthmarks? No. None? None? Any lower body? Objection, Your Honor. All the rules. Let me ask you a question. I'll restate that. Can you hold the question? I'm sorry. The question was, did she have any birthmarks or pigmentation on her lower body?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And she'll tell you about the injuries she observed on Tina the week after the defendant had arrested her. Tina won't be able to come here. She won't be able to look the defendant in the eye and say, you did this to me. But on that cold, dark day, November 9th, one of the reasons Tina was so terrified is she had no idea who the person was that attacked her. She didn't know his name.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Let's let the witness answer the question before we move on, Mr. Young. No. Is Omega and Mrs. Smith on us?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Here on equals 26, it's going to be a blank screen off the screen again.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Is there any recent medical attention outside of 11-9 or 21-9? There are no hospital visits. I mean, she went to the doctor. I'm not sure. Yes, she went to the doctor. Who's Schmidt? I don't want to go too much further. I don't know. I feel like I've already violated enough of this question. I hate to have you here as it is. Your Honor, if we could just get to a question, please.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It's a photograph of the Christian alumnus showing abrasions and bruising and discoloration.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Young, if you would ask your next question of this witness, then we'll be here even less. Knowing your wife for 36 years, being your wife for two years, do you see any reason that she would laugh and giggle about things such as this? Objection, Your Honor. There's no evidence of that, and it would be speculation on the part of this witness. Sustained.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Smiley, I guess, about the cell phone service. I'm on the bus. Objection, Your Honor. Relevance? Maybe we'll get to something relevant. Go ahead.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Go ahead.
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Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes, I overrode the objection. That means you can ask the question. How is the cell phone service up there on the blocks for your house located? Objection. Again, a little bit of an objection. Maybe we'll get to something relevant, but go ahead with the line of questioning, Mr. Young. I'll proceed on your own.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Again, based on the sensitive nature of that, we'd ask the bailiff to approach and show that to the jurors. All right. We'll proceed in the fashion as suggested. And so goes the element of the fact. Welcome to People's Exhibit 19.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Based on your remembrance, do you remember your wife being appointed to go to the hospital while you were there? Yes, they told her she had to go to the hospital. And who might that be that told her they had to go to the hospital? I don't remember. It would have been law enforcement, correct? Law enforcement yourself would be the only ones there, true? Her daughters were there also.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
So it could have been law enforcement and daughters. And the daughter. And whether to see your answer or not, I'd like to answer the only question that has been asked. Do you remember approximately how many daughters did arrive to the scene? No, I don't. And do you know how they got information? I called the younger daughter, Ilsa.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Svidal, you said you went to the hospital by yourself in your own vehicle. Do you remember when you took your wife to the hospital? She went with her daughter. And that would have been Ilsa's or Heidi's? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And that was on your Reverend Nunn that same night? Yes. Before you came to the hospital, could you shed a bit of light on what your wife did before leaving?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
What precautions did she do? Maybe she dressed? How long it was, to the best of your knowledge. Yeah, she put some clothes on. She didn't shower? No. She, uh, I would say she held tops on and she didn't change clothing? I don't know. Michigan, are you, uh, in regards to the sexual assault, are you aware of whether there were any objections to the condom or anything? Did she explain it to you? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
She didn't know where he went, but she did know. She knew he had a red beard, and she knew he had her purse, her jewelry. The day after, November 9, 2021, on November 10, 2021, the day after she had been brutally and violently robbed and sexually assaulted, the U.S. Marshals found the defendant in Springfield, Missouri.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And last question, she walked down the road.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
She walked down the road. Yeah. She walked down the road.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When you were speaking with Christine Lomath and talking with her, did you notice anything about her mouth, specifically if there was blood in her mouth?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There was.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And did you take photographs of the interior of her mouth as well? I did. When you looked in her mouth, did you discover that there were significant injuries to the inside?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
In your training as a nurse and the years that you've been a nurse, have you seen chemical burns before? I have. The burns in Ms. Lohman's mouth, did it appear to be chemical burns to you? It did. People's Exhibit 27, it's just a photograph of the insides of Christina Lohman's mouth on November 9th, 2021, when you performed a sexual assault examination.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When they found the defendant in Springfield, I'm sorry, Springfield, Illinois. When they found the defendant in Springfield, the defendant had Tina's purse over his shoulder. Inside that purse were Tina's jewelry, Tina's voter ID card. On the defendant's wrist was Tina's watch. And inside the defendant's pocket was Tina's rosary.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It is. The black and red areas, is that blood?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Again, People's 28, is that a different view of Christina Lowman's, the interior of her mouth?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
On the defendant's feet were a pair of shoes that exactly matched the shoe print left at the scene at Tina's house. And just down the street from where the defendant was found was Tina's car covered in the defendant's fingerprints. And despite efforts to destroy any DNA by spraying carpet cleaner on Tina, there was male DNA found by the Illinois State Police.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It is.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Again, we're able to better visualize the clotting on her mouth and then the fresh blood at the back of her throat. Is that correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Again, the interior of Christina Lowman's mouth on November 9th, 2021, showing blood.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The clotting and the abrasions and the turns on the inside of her mouth. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Male DNA was found on the Depends, the adult diaper that Tina had been wearing that night of November 9, 2021. DNA that was on Tina's Depends was determined to be 310 times more likely to be the defendant's DNA. The can of carpet cleaner that the defendant had used to spray Tina's mouth and body that was found at the house, that was tested for fingerprints.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That is correct. Here, do we see the roof of her mouth, Christina Lemons? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
The following is the trial of Bradley Yon, who decided to represent himself and in doing so, made a mockery of the court system. Jan was charged with two counts of home invasion, aggravated kidnapping, aggravated vehicle hijacking, aggravated criminal sexual assault, and residential burglary. A month after the attack, Christine lost her life.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And again, the black clotting and the fresh abrasion.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And the fresh. Ms. Oglesby, did you also examine Christina Lemons' vagina?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And in examining her vagina, did you know there's injuries to her vagina? I did. In fact, was there a three linear tears approximately one centimeter long?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And the defendant's fingerprint was found on that can of carpet cleaner. What the defendant did was on November 9, 2021 was horrific. It was violent. It was a nightmare. It was a lone woman. No 77-year-old grandmother should ever have to experience what the defendant did to Tina Lohman on November 9, 2021. It was sick. It was perverted. What he did to Tina Lohman was, it's called home invasion.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Is that correct? Yeah, that sounds correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And also a one by one or one centimeter by one centimeter abrasion and a three centimeter by two centimeter abrasion. Bleeding.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That's correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Did you also attempt to perform a cervix exam on this woman?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Were you able to complete that?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I was not.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Is that because it was too painful for her?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
That is correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When you were able to perform what you were able to perform on that cervix exam, did you notice stringy clots in the vaginal wall?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
It's called aggravated kidnapping. Aggravated vehicular hijacking. It's called residential. And it's called aggravated criminal. And at the end of this case, called to hold the defendant for what he did to Tina Lohman on November 9th, 2021. Thank you, Your Honor.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Can you tell me what that means, stringy clots in the vaginal?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When I was able to open up the speculum as much as I could, there was clotted blood from some sort of injury to the vagina. Yeah.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And Peoples 31 and 32, those are photographs of the examination of Christina Lemon's vagina during the sexual assault examination. Yes. And those show the abrasions and the tears that you three are seeing. Correct. Based on the nature of 31 and 32, we're not going to publish them on the Screaming Dice, but we will publish the jury and publish them in that manner.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Mr. Yon, care to make any opening statements? Yes, sir. Uh, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, what you just heard were theatrics. Theatrics. Something one puts forth in order to obtain and persuade you to obtain a conviction in a trial. I will concede that some things Ms. Keck here stated do in fact ring true. However, they're not as she stated them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Welcome to Crimatorium. I'm your host, Madeline. Christine Lohmann-Schmidt was a 77-year-old wife, mother, grandmother, and great-grandmother. She was poised and strong, loved Christmas, wine, and Star Trek, but most of all, she loved her family. Christine traveled the world, studied at the Sarbonne in Paris, and went to the London School of Economics.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Thank you. Mr. Jones, when you're ready with your questions. Thank you, Your Honor. Can you tell me your name, please?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
If the exhibits 31 and 32 will be published to the jury as suggested. Ms.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There are many discrepancies in this case that have yet to be finalized. Ladies and gentlemen, the jury today, this is going to be very hard for all of us. We have people here in the stands. It's going to be extremely hard for them. It's going to be extremely hard for you. It's extremely hard for myself. I'm the one here on these claims. However, these claims are not quite true.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Oblesby, when you accepted that examination from Christy Allen, was she wearing an adult gift that time? She was. When you, did you move that thing?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And did you place it into evidence?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When you observed that defense, did you notice any blood on that as well?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And I will show you that today. I apologize for having you awesome people here today. Yes, it's a duty of citizenship to have to serve on a jury every so often. Not many smiles today. However, I did see some yesterday. I appreciate them smiles. That has brought a light to my soul as I've been stuck here in this county jail, tormented for the last 19 months. I ask that you forgive my appearance.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Yes, there was a lot of blood on the defense.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
You're familiar with the term sexual assault, yeah?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Correct.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Did you perform a sexual assault in this case?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I did.
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
We're going to hand you what's been marked as people's exhibit number one.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Do you recognize that? I do. And is that the sexual assault kit that you collected on November 9th, 2021 from Christina? It is. Count it again. Number one, be admitted again. Any objection? No, Your Honor. As long as we can introduce 0506, the defense copy, which is also a secondary patient consent form. It's also the top of that box, which is attached to that. It's a completely different one.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Jacqueline Oglesby.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
This is not normally me. I normally have hair. I did not expect you to feel sorry for me by any means. I also understand you'd much rather be enjoying your summer at home rather than being in this courtroom. However, the powers that compel have brought you here today. I once heard that trials are based on persuasion. Who has the best persuasion in their words?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Can you get your little duck closer to that?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Sirs, I'm going to object at this point. The court asked us if there was an objection to the introduction, not for commentary about other pieces of evidence.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
And so, Mr. Young, there's no objection to the admission of people's exhibit number one. You will have a chance to cross-examine and attempt to introduce the exhibits you believe are relevant. And so we'll take that up when it's your turn. Mr. Jones. Thank you, Your Honor.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Who can be persuaded by the persuadee? Words like persuasion, I believe they're negative myself. They're kind of like manipulation. Very negative. It's, it's,
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Jacqueline Oglesby?
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Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
There we go. All right. Everybody here, okay. Ms. Oglesby, can you tell me what you do?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
negative in my insight to persuade somebody especially when you want to persuade somebody as to the charges here today and not have the proof needed to to present those theatrics and not have the proof needed to present those theatrics to persuade one's life away As Ms. Keck stated, if they were to truly happen, they're sick, they're demented, they're horrendous, horrid.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I think I just want to make sure that adults, the pants, that just something where she was wearing that when she came into the emergency room when you were first there. Correct. Thank you. That's all the questions I have. All right. Any cross-examination, Mr. Young? Yes, Your Honor. Yes, most definitely. I'll just be cutting for company. In reference to, I'll start out with a sex assault kid.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
In reference to the sex assault kid, you do a number of procedures in that sex assault kid, right? That's correct. There's a number of options or steps you should take in order to fulfill a complete sex assault, true?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Persuasion, I see that in the same sense as to persuade something that is not true is also sick. These are demented crimes. Ladies and gents, I'm more in agreeance with the word logical. To be logical seems to be more so valuable than to persuade some. Also, the meaning of logical, to expect because of what has gone before, what has happened in prior arrangements, prior times.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I do it based on the patient's needs and wants.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
In this case, you did several different pages. Questionnaires, notations, bruises, among the statements, apps described by patient historian, methods used by assailants or assailants, post-assault hygiene activity, patient medical history for forensic lab among general exam.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Based on or using logic, the definition of logic, correct reasoning, or the science of what is expected by the working of cause and effect. The working of cause and effect. Today and throughout this trial, you'll see that the cause does not hold the effect it should. The alleged cause does not hold the effect it should. I'm sure a lot of you are logical human beings.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
Throughout the trial, Christine is referred to as Christina, Tina, and CL. The first two recordings have been heavily edited due to how noisy the courtroom was, so the voices sound slightly distorted. In the next episodes, the sound improves greatly. The pain, indignity, and fear Christine faced is nothing short of shocking. Listener discretion is advised. Look for parts three and four tomorrow.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: Illinois vs Bradley Yohn | The Horrifying Attack on Christine Lohman Schmitt
When you do a sexual assault kit, which I believe is called an ISPE or ISPSEC, a sex assault evidence collection kit, there are several steps to that kit, right? Correct. And one of them would be a general exam. Correct. And you would examine the... Declarence body, per se, you would overlook them if they happen again. Correct. And you notate them injuries, obviously, right? Correct.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
Her seatbelt off, and I reached in there. You kind of had to like take her legs, take her legs like this, flipped over some, and her feet were out of the car. And then I had to kind of take her. You were thinking she was dead. I did. Yeah, yeah.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
was carrying her i was i was carrying her like this and it was almost it was almost like a baby i was trying to support her neck because i couldn't stand to see it neck just anyway so anyway i got her and i said her like right by kind of down but not yet not quite down she was
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
No, no, I'm talking by the ditch because I went and moved my car.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
Then I went back into the woods, and I looked around. I didn't see a single person, so I thought, okay. Picked her up, and that's where I started taking that creek. I started walking along there, and I made— I want to take—oh, go ahead. Oh, okay. I made— He said, I don't know that route because I had never been in there before. And I just, I remember walking. I remember seeing that little trail.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
Despite the scandal and the national outcry, Letourneau and Folau married in 2005 after she completed her sentence. Their relationship endured for over a decade until their separation in 2017. In 2020, Letourneau passed away from cancer at the age of 58. Palau, now an adult, took responsibility for his two daughters in the years following Mary Kay Letourneau's case.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
I walked along that little trail right there. Then I saw the creek again. First thought in my mind, what I was going to do was I was going to take her and I was going to toss her into the creek right there is what I was going to do. Okay. into the creek. Can't do it. I thought, I'm in some deep shit is what I thought. I'm in some deep trouble.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
So, I thought, how in the world am I going to cover this up? So, I'm just standing there. I was a nervous wreck, thinking, what do I do? What do I do? So, I remembered in my car, I had this big belt. It was a thick belt, about like that. And it was made of kind of like this kind of material, etc. to make it look like she had got strangled there in the woods.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
So while she was laying there, I took the belt, and when I took the belt, I pulled. I pulled it on her neck right there. Around her neck. Around her neck. I had pulled it. And at that point, when I had pulled it, and I held on. I don't know how long I held on, but I held on. And I had to turn my head because I didn't want to see. Did you hear her making any noise? Yeah, that's the thing.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
All of a sudden I heard like a gurgle kind of sound. And then all of a sudden when I heard the gurgle, I let go. And when I let go, she had spit foam coming out of her mouth. And I don't know if it was spit, foam. drool, I had no idea what it was, but I saw it coming out of her mouth and then I'd seen that she was the sickest color I'd ever seen.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
It looked like, literally like she had stopped breathing is what it looked like. So anyway, after that, she's laying on the ground and I didn't want to, but something just told me I had to look again, and I looked again, and looked at her stomach, there's nothing. So anyway, I took it, I tied it, I kind of tied it like that, boom, in. Okay. It didn't pull apart like that. It stayed.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
And it was around her neck, you said? Okay. Fortunately. Okay. So I did that. Okay. And at that point, I heard a noise, and all of a sudden, I saw the stomach go, some went, it was just like, it kind of went up in the air. Okay. know if it was for maybe when I tightened it right there, that air had just pushed in.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
So then what I did, right then, I untightened it, and when I untightened it right there, the stomach just went back down. So I thought, okay, it's air escaping. And then one last time, did it again, one last time, same thing happened. And then I heard a noise, and I saw spit. I saw saliva. It bubbled. So I untightened it, and then all of a sudden, it went back in.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
And then at this point, her tongue was kind of protruding like that between the teeth. And after that, I got out of there. After that, I shouldn't say that because I looked, and I was watching, and I didn't stay long. I was looking, and I put my ear down right there by her. She did not breathe. So what I did, I took some, I'm sorry, I forgot about this. Take some water.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
Numerous similar incidents have come to light. Here are just two examples. On April 17, 2006, 17-year-old Ashley Reeves left her home in Bellevue, Illinois, telling her parents she was going to a job interview. When she didn't return home that evening and couldn't be reached, her parents reported her missing.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
both times, and then it went back down. So I didn't know. And that's when I listened, and I couldn't hear anything. So I stared at her stomach, because you could see that easily if the stomach was moving. So I'm looking at her stomach. I saw no movement. So I thought, crap. Took these whatever kind of leaves, bushes, it was, that was growing right there.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
I picked some of those off and I just covered it. I started covering her face and like her chest and area and everything. So I covered that and I just, after I covered it up right there, I just ran, I'm sorry, when I was... After that, I took my foot, and I kind of went over right there to just strain footprints that may have been there. Okay. And after that, I just took off.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
And, I mean, I literally darted through there like a bat out of hell. I darted through there, and I found my way out instantly. I don't know how, but it was like instantly it seemed like I found my way out, and I went up that little – That entrance that we came in, I went up that thing, and then I darted up the hill, got in my car, took off. Where's the belt? I took the belt and I just threw it.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
Where did you throw it? I got in the car, and when I was on Highway 15, I just took it. I just tossed it out the window. I tossed it out the passenger. About where were you at on Highway 15? I don't know if there was a first opportunity. There's no cars behind me, I know that. Because I would literally slow down and let cars get around. So she could throw it out. Throw it out.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
You said something about when we were on the scene there with her, about one shoe being off and one shoe being off.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Yes. I had no idea. Was there one shoe off or was I seeing things? Both shoes were off. See, when I left, she had both shoes on. She was fully clothed. She was completely fully clothed. And when I saw that shoe, that's what shocked me more than anything. Because when you shine that light right there, and I saw her, did she have any bushes over her face? She had to have moved them.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
She had to because she was under those bushes. She was under the bushes. And when you shine that light on her right there, and I saw that, It just, I felt like my heart had just stopped. And then I just looked over and that's where I saw the shoe. It was right there. And that freaked me out when I saw the shoe.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
I don't know what freaked me out more when you first shined the light there when I saw the shoe. So. Yeah, both her shoes were off. Okay. But they were up by her head. Really? Yeah. Okay. If you need me to go back there, if you guys have that spot marked where you found her, I can show you where I had put her. Okay. Right there. Do you think she was moving from there? I don't know.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
That's what shocked me to death when I saw that. That's why when I got up, I was so happy that she was alive, but then all of a sudden I got really freaked out that her shoe was off and that there was nothing over her. There was nothing there.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Because it looked like she had some what we call ligature marks around her ankles. What's that ligature? Well, like what you had done around her neck. Oh, no. It looked like there was something around her ankles. Oh, no.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Did you pull her by her feet at any point? No. When I drug her, I did it by the shoulders. I did it underneath. I did it underneath, so I did that.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Police began their investigation by retracing Ashley's last known movements and speaking with her friends and family. During these interviews, one name came up repeatedly, Samson Shelton. Shelton, a 26-year-old high school teacher and wrestling coach, had been spending time with Ashley.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Well, it sounds like you were thinking that he had killed her and you wanted to hide her so you didn't get in trouble.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
But then when you got there, it sounds like from what you were saying... I freaked out. Well, yeah, definitely you freaked out, but it sounds like when you got there... She was still alive, and you had some indications of that.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Are you talking about tonight or Thursday? Last night. Yeah, okay.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
When you got her there last night, when you dragged her into the woods, you had some indications that she may have been still alive, but you weren't sure what to do.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Yeah, because—are you talking about when I got her to the woods or into the woods?
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
When we send our kids to school, we trust that they'll be in safe hands under the guidance of teachers who nurture their potential. But what happens when the trust is broken? What happens when the very people entrusted with shaping young minds cross boundaries that should never be crossed?
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When Teachers Cross the Line
You're talking about into it? Into the woods and through the woods with the gurgling and the falling.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Yeah, I see it. One thing I kept thinking of was my grandpa. When he had his heart attack, we were sitting in there by his bed there at St. Elizabeth's where he had died. And I remember I went to give him a hug. When I gave him a hug and I pushed on his chest, all of a sudden I heard this noise. I heard this gurgling noise. And it scared me half to death. And I jumped back.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
I can't remember, I think it was my grandma that was right there. I said, he just made a noise. She said, hon, she said, that's just a gurgling noise. She said, you pushed on his chest. So I thought maybe when I first tightened right there, and that gurgling noise, that's what it reminded me of, was from my grandpa. It was from that gurgling noise.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
And then again, I did the stupidest thing, and I tied that right there. And all of a sudden, you just see the stomach go up. So I thought that maybe it was air trapped in there. And then when you let go, it went back down. But then if you tighten it again, it's like it goes back up. So I don't know. I feel absolutely horrible that she was out there for that long and she was living through that.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Good thing that she's alive. I hope she can walk. Yeah. I sure hope she can walk. You can.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Dude, I'm never going to forget that popping noise. I would imagine, Sam, that's something horrible. I do wish you would have just taken her to the hospital, though, Sam. I know.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
I was scared to death for, and to sound selfish as can be, I was scared to death for myself. I really was. It does sound selfish. It absolutely does. And I never get to do the You know, and I mean, I'll never be able to do that now anyway, but I should take the right thing then. Yeah.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Yeah. I just like she's alive. Was there any blood in your car?
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When Teachers Cross the Line
The only thing I did today when, well, the officers, Dan and the other guy, they saw me do it. They had searched my car, and they found out inside through a bunch of empty bottles and a bunch of empty grizzly cans that were in there. I threw those away. But you had to get a scrub brush and clean inside.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
No, no. You don't mind if we search your car again and look through it and stuff like that? Okay.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Is my car in your custody now, I guess? Temporarily, yeah. Okay. I mean, we're going to probably do it later today. We're not going to do it tonight, go through it. Okay. Do you have the keys, by the way? Yeah, they're right here. Okay. I'll just remind you to get those. Yeah. During transport and the whole time we've been talking, Sam? From? Oh, yeah. While we were out there when we came back.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
Police brought Shelton in for questioning and at first, he denied knowing anything about Ashley's disappearance. However, after hours of interrogation, Shelton's story changed. He admitted to meeting Ashley earlier that day. During an argument in his car, things escalated and Shelton assaulted her. Believing he had killed her, Shelton drove to a remote wooded area and left her there.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
I just want to cover a few things just to make sure. No one treated you bad.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Okay. You willingly talked to us the whole time. Yeah. Right. Okay. We went over the Miranda rights with you earlier. Well, you didn't, but. I didn't. Right, right. But they did. Right, right. have an attorney at any time and if you can't afford one, it won't be appointed. Right. So if anything you say, you could be using it in court.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
You know, all those, you went through and signed those and you understood that.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Well, you know, I guess obviously things are better than I talked.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Uh, yes. Yes. She's alive. And, and Sam, she may not have made it through another night. I know. I can't believe she made it. I can't either. Yeah. I was so happy. Yeah. Um, what we have to do now is put everything together and then it's ultimately up to the state's attorney's office. Is that what they do? Yes.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Yes. Um, it's his office. It's not directly him, but it says office to decide what, what we do from this point. Um, I told you earlier, you know, I had to put handcuffs on you before we went out there in the jar in custody and, you know, it's up to them to decide what happens with that. Okay.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Appreciate you talking to us and telling us the truth about it, and we can just all hope and pray that Ashley pulls out of this.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Investigator Hundo, the big guy, went directly to their house to tell them. I bet they're thrilled with that. I bet they're thrilled. Oh, yes. I'm sure. I'm sure. Is there anything else you can think of? I mean, this is the time, if there's anything you're leaving out that you really need to tell me.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
Okay. Hey, when you search my car, can you throw my grizzly cans out there and there? Throw them away? My grizzly cans out. Throw them away? Yeah, because my mom's probably going to take my car. Oh, okay. She doesn't know I chew. Okay. Or if you see any spitters in there. Okay. Could you give me your keys? Yeah.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Okay. Now, we're probably going to do this tomorrow, just so you know.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Where are you parked? Oh, I'm parked, uh, I'm confused. I think I'm over there. Yeah, I think so. What kind of car is it? Ford Mustang, white, 2004. Not a Cobra, is it? No. Okay. Can't drive a stick? Oh, yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Cool. So, uh, what do I, I get some night here tonight, I guess? Yes, sir. Okay. And probably all weekend?
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When Teachers Cross the Line
I can tell you definitely tonight, past that point, it's up to the state's attorney's office. Is that where they go for bail and bond? Right. If I was to tell you something, it would be making a promise, and I can't do that. I can't make any promises.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Am I going to be able to get my contact solution and take my contacts out and toothbrush them? I don't think so.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
I can't take my contacts out either? Maybe they'll give you something for that down there, but I don't think they, I really don't know.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
All right, am I able to get like a little private toilet because I can't pee when there's people around because of my urinary stress disorder? Yeah, I don't know.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
I'll tell them that that's what you want, but I don't know if they'll be able to do that.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
I'll be miserable if I can't pee. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'll be back in a minute, okay? Okay. Hey, do I stay in a holding cell kind of thing, or do I stay in the actual jail?
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
Shelton was arrested and charged with attempted murder. During his interrogation and throughout the legal proceedings, his casual demeanor and lack of remorse shocked investigators and the public. He pleaded guilty to attempted first-degree murder in 2007 and was sentenced to 20 years in prison. After serving approximately 17 years, Shelton was released on parole on April 22, 2024.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
With Shelton's confession, police rushed to the location he described. When they found Ashley, she had been lying motionless in the elements for over 30 hours. At first, they believed she was dead, but as one officer approached, they noticed a slight movement. She was still alive. Ashley was immediately rushed to the hospital, where doctors work to save her life and treat her severe injuries.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
He is scheduled to remain on parole until April 22, 2027. Ashley Reeves had to learn to walk and talk all over again. Her recovery was long and difficult, but she has gone on to rebuild her life. She has since spoken out about her experience, emphasizing the importance of recognizing and addressing the warning signs of inappropriate relationships.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
Today, Ashley is an advocate for victims, sharing her story to raise awareness and help others in similar situations. In March 2017, Tad Cummins, a 50-year-old high school teacher from Columbia, Tennessee, disappeared with 15-year-old Elizabeth Thomas, one of his students. The situation quickly drew national attention as concerns grew for Elizabeth's safety.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Their relationship, which had already prompted warnings from school officials and her family, was at the center of the case. Cummins had recently been suspended from his teaching position after reports surfaced of inappropriate behavior involving Elizabeth. Despite the scrutiny, he managed to execute a plan to leave town with her on March 13, 2017, picking her up from a local restaurant.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Evidence would later reveal that Cummins had referred to Elizabeth as his wife during their time in hiding, leading authorities to believe he intended to marry her. Their disappearance sparked a massive manhunt and an Amber Alert with investigators tracking their movements across multiple states. After more than five weeks, the search led authorities to a remote cabin in Northern California.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
There, law enforcement found Cummins and Elizabeth. He was taken into custody without incident and Elizabeth was safely returned to her family. Cummins pleaded guilty to federal charges of transporting a minor across state lines and obstruction of justice. In 2018, he was sentenced to 20 years in prison.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
Elizabeth, deeply impacted by the experience, has since worked to rebuild her life away from the public eye. Are these cases on the rise? Some research suggests that they are, with many pointing to factors like the increased prevalence of social media and digital communication. These tools, while valuable in education, can also blur professional boundaries when misused.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
Others argue that such cases have always existed but are now being reported more frequently due to greater awareness and improved oversight. Before I close, I want to thank my two latest patrons, Diana and Shannon. Thank you, Diana and Shannon. Your support is very much appreciated. And thank you all for listening to this episode.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
If you enjoy the show and want to help keep it going, consider supporting Crimatorium on Patreon or Ko-Fi. The links to those two are in the show notes. Sharing the show and leaving a review is also a big help. Until next time, take care.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
Once Ashley was found, police brought Shelton back in for further questioning. In this second interview, officers informed Shelton that Ashley had survived. His reaction had a casual tone to it and was devoid of remorse, which was shocking to investigators.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
He just got back from. But when we found her, she's still breathing. She was responding to light when we were shining the flashlight in her eyes, and she was looking at us. So that's good. Can she hear? I don't know, but she was responding to some of the things we were saying, so I suspect that she is. I'm not a medical person anymore.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
I used to work on the ambulance, so I don't really know that much about it, so I can't say a whole lot. the reason I brought you back in here, Sam, so we can talk. I want to go over everything that happened. Okay. You told me a little bit, but you were really upset and it was kind of hard to talk, so I want you to, and here's the thing, you know, I need the 110%. I know. Okay?
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
And now, you've got to understand, you lie a whole lot. So we're to this point now, and now is the time to just tell me, okay? Okay. So start at the beginning and tell me everything that happened, okay? Okay. And you understand you're still on, you know, this video. Yeah, it's fine. Okay. So I ended up... Hold on a second. While we were out there, I didn't beat you, of course.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
Today, we're looking at two disturbing cases of teachers who have violated their roles as mentors and protectors. Everyone has heard of the case of Mary Kay Letourneau. A 34-year-old married teacher, Letourneau made national headlines in 1997 for her relationship with her 12-year-old student, Vili Folau.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Okay. So I met her at Leaven Park at... somewhere between 345 and 4. I think it was probably a little bit before 4. I met her at Latimer Park there. She got in my car, and what we did, we drove down 177. We turned around in the... Do I need to give you where all we went during this? The entire street route? Please, if you know the streets. Okay, as much as I can recall. When's this...
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Not the family sportsplex, the bar that's right there. Caddyshack. Went to Caddyshack, turned back around, went down the street, then made a left, right across from McClintock, made a left, turned around, dead end street, came back, hit the family sportsplex. We were driving around arguing the majority of the time. Let's see, hit the sportsplex, came back down,
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When Teachers Cross the Line
then made a right over two streets down past that detour sign that's up there, circled around, went back down, and I can't remember if it was Caddyshack or Sportsplex, we turned around and again, just kind of stayed right there in that general area, drove back.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
This time I took a right, right after where the Casey's is by the Robbins Nest, took a right, went up that road, came back down, and kind of went left, After we made the right at Robin's Nest, I went to the road where the little triangle thing is in there, circled around that, came down, and turned right, so Casey's on our left, so we turned right back onto 177.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Going back up, went down by Garfield's, went around the block, and... headed back toward, that's where we headed toward Radio Range. And going toward Radio Range right there. And you're driving your car? I'm driving my car. And where is she sitting? She's in passenger seat. Okay. Okay. We get to Radio Range Road.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
My intentions were, when I was there, I was so angry at her, I was going to take her, and I just wanted to literally throw her out of the car, is what I wanted to do, get rid of her. Why were you angry at her? Because we had just been arguing over a lot of things, and the major thing was that she was upset because she had mentioned...
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When Teachers Cross the Line
She mentioned to me on Wednesday that she wanted to have sexual relations with me. And what do you mean by sexual relations? She just wanted to have sex. Okay. So anyway, I told her it was not a good thing to do. I did not want to do it. And how many times have you had sex with her before? One time. One time.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
No, no, no. I'm estimating this because I don't know the exact date. I met her at Mardi Gras the Saturday that the big parade was going on. I don't know the date. I think it was the 25th or the 23rd. I'm not for sure. And it was about a week later, maybe two weeks later. Again, I can't give you an actual date. Millside Park in the back of her mom's SUV vehicle. I don't know what time it is.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
About what time of day was it? I don't know. It was on a Saturday. Was it dark out? No, it was like 12 maybe? Around that time? I'm not 100% sure. Yeah, so...
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Or was it? So you were mad at her because she wanted to have sex, you didn't want to have sex.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Right. And the other thing we were arguing about was that she said, since I did it the first time, why can't I do it again? And that's when I explained to her, I don't think of her that way. And she said, well, I didn't think of you that way the first time. But then I said, no, that's not true, otherwise you wouldn't have done that.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
And she said, well, otherwise you wouldn't have done that to me either. I don't know. So we're already arguing about that. So that's where I pulled over and stopped. Now, when I pulled over, I didn't actually get into the grass. I was still on the road itself. So I got out of my car. On Radio Range Road? Yes.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
I'm not good at estimations. Mile, half mile? I don't think Radio Range is a mile long. Well, I can tell you this. As soon as you make a left, keep going down radio range, and the first little spot that you see that has a little bit of gravel that comes off the road a little bit, it's a patch that's maybe about... that wide. Anyway, I stopped about right there. And that's where I got out.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
This case captured attention not only for the circumstances, but also because it was one of the first to bring such a dynamic into the public spotlight. The drastic age difference combined with her trusted role as an educator made it a cultural turning point in how these situations were viewed.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
That's where I opened the door, came over, hit her seatbelt button right there to unlock the seatbelt. And that's where I grabbed her and I started pulling her and pulling her and trying to pull her out of the car. And then when I got her out, like... Okay. If I'm her sitting in the seat, when I tried to get, like when she was up right here, she's trying to hold, she's trying to hold on.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
And I just, yeah, I just used all my weight. I just, I just pulled back. I just completely pulled back. And that's where I heard the pop right there. And when I heard, when I heard that, that pop, sorry, that's sickening. Where did the pop come from? It, it heard and felt like a neck.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Okay. Um, Was her head on the top of the roof of the car? Is that why?
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When Teachers Cross the Line
No, I had her almost like you're going to give somebody a DDT. You know how they hook for a DDT and go down? I just hooked her and I tried to pull her out. Was she holding on? Is that why or what? She was like grabbing for the middle console in the car right there. When I say middle console, I'm talking about the little flip thing that goes up. And then what happened?
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When Teachers Cross the Line
After that, it's just like the body felt. It just went limp. It just went limp. Okay. And it went limp. It went limp.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
You have to remember, she's alive. I know. Okay. That happened. I'm never going to forget that. Yeah. Yeah. Her feet were still sort of in the car. I had like a bowel or something, and we'll show you. And when she just felt limp right there, I didn't know what to do. I kind of had hold of her, and I was like, Ashley? And she didn't respond. So I just set her back in the car.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
I just kind of had to push her over. I set her in the car, and her neck was just kind of, Like that. It was just kind of like that. And she was kind of going forward a little bit. And I stopped, put the seatbelt on her. And I put the seatbelt on. And at that point, when the seatbelt was on, she was able to stay upright. Okay. Her head was leaning forward like that. It was...
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When Teachers Cross the Line
I didn't even want to look. Yeah, I understand. I can't stand breaks. It's one thing that freaks me out. And she was kind of like that, is how I'd say she was. Okay.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
And what were you thinking then? You were thinking that she was dead.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
At that point, I wanted to rush her to the hospital, but I knew if I took her to the hospital, that all fingers would be pointing toward me, which... They had every right to. I was really scared at that point. I was very, very, very scared. Did you think she was dead at that time? She was not moving and the thing I had to do, I had on, I had to put my hat.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
Letourneau was sentenced to prison where she gave birth to Folau's first child, further amplifying the public's fascination with the case. After being released on parole, she violated the conditions by continuing to see Folau and was sent back to serve the remainder of her sentence. During this time, she had a second child with him.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
Like, because I couldn't stand looking at her head, face. I had to put it like that. I was looking at the stomach to see if I could see any movement, any breathing. And I didn't see nothing. And I wanted to look at her face to see if she had any color right there.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
And then I thought once I heard that pop that maybe automatically she was already dead because I always thought when you break the neck, you're dead. Sure. I mean, through day. Most people, that is true. So, anyway. What were you doing with your hand? I didn't understand that. Oh, I can't stand to see braids, and it was sickening. Was it sticking out in the back or something? I don't know.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
I didn't want to look. After I heard that pop and I set it back in, I saw her body was drooping. That's where I turned around, actually, on Radio Range right there. Turned around, and what I'm saying is I kind of popped a U-ey, or did a turnabout, whatever you want to call it. Drove back to 177. Had no idea what I was going to do. No idea. I was thinking hospital.
Crimeatorium
When Teachers Cross the Line
That was the first thought that crossed my mind. Then I thought, well, maybe I can drop her off at her truck, is what I thought. And I didn't want to do that. So you might thought maybe I can, maybe I can just hide her somewhere. So, Hey, when I was driving, when I was driving down, I remembered since we had gone to citizens before that there's that wooded area that was over there.
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When Teachers Cross the Line
So I pulled up to citizens. We got to that first entrance right there. Got out of my car quickly. Looked down. I saw the water in the creek. Got back in. Drove down a little more to the same entrance that we had entered in. Okay. And I remember seeing a tire right there. Okay. So anyway, I saw that I could get her down there. So I opened up the door. Took a seatbelt off. Sorry. Okay.
Crimeatorium
A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Nelson told his girlfriend that he knows where a 14-year-old girl is and right now is the time to take her, kill her, and rape her. An hour later, Keith Nelson saw 10-year-old Pamela skating home from the store and chose that moment to carry out his plan. While waiting for his trial to begin, Nelson also told fellow inmate Edward Frazier about his twisted desires.
Crimeatorium
A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Frazier testified that during conversations between the two, Nelson often talked about wanting to kidnap women, tie them up and sexually assault them. Nelson also told Frazier he wanted to watch his victim seven days a week before deciding to kidnap them. During his testimony, Frazier added, I asked him what the kidnap room would consist of. He said there would be cotton on the floor.
Crimeatorium
A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
They wouldn't have a bed. They wouldn't have a shower. The only thing they would have is a commode and they would get their toilet paper outside of it. He knew how to get belts and how to tie a person down to where he could actually put them in different positions where he could have sex with them. He described it in detail.
Crimeatorium
A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
But when it came to murder, Frazier testified Nelson did not go into detail about this aspect of his proposed crimes. After two months of testimony and victim impact statements, the jury reached a decision. On November 28, 2001, 27-year-old Keith DeWayne Nelson was found guilty and the jury determined that the severity of his crimes warranted the death penalty.
Crimeatorium
A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
In 2002, a judge finalized the verdict, sentencing Keith Nelson to death by lethal injection. Nelson and his defense team filed appeals in 2003 and 2018, but both were rejected. Keith DeWayne Nelson spent 21 years on death row at USP Terre Haute, a high-security federal prison in Indiana that houses all federal death row inmates.
Crimeatorium
A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
A day before his scheduled execution, it briefly seemed that Nelson might avoid his sentence. A U.S. District Court judge ruled on the eve of Nelson's first execution that using prescription drugs for the lethal injection was illegal as it violated federal law.
Crimeatorium
A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
This technicality was resolved quickly and on August 28, 2020, one day after his original execution date, Keith DeWayne Nelson was executed by lethal injection. When asked if he had any final words, Nelson remained silent, staring straight ahead.
Crimeatorium
A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Pamela's mother, Sherry West, found little comfort in his execution, stating that neither she nor her family experienced any relief throughout the process. She also noted that at no point did Nelson show any remorse or regret for his actions. Three years prior to Nelson's execution, Sherry West would once again experience the grief of losing a child.
Crimeatorium
A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
As she rollerbladed back from the store, she noticed a white pickup truck parked near her home. As she drew closer, she noticed the door was ajar and corrected her path so she could skate around it with ease. But as she passed by, she felt a hand wrap around her waist. In an instant, a man grabbed Pamela as she screamed for help.
Crimeatorium
A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
In April 2017, Pamela's sister, Casey Easton, lost her life at the hand of her boyfriend, an Amancio Lansdowne, just a block away from where Pamela was kidnapped eight years earlier. Casey Eaton was a mother of four children. Sherry spoke at Lansdowne's sentencing hearing, saying, Lansdowne was sentenced to 20 years in prison in 2018.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Nelson leaves behind a child whose identity is protected for safety reasons. His son was born shortly after Nelson's arrest for Pamela's kidnapping and murder in 1999. Sherry West told KMBC in August 2020, a day after Keith Nelson's execution, to know that that was the last face she saw on this earth and having to know how scared she was and what he was doing to her has literally eaten me up.
Crimeatorium
A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
A spokesperson for the family stated that Sherry and her family can now move toward healing. Thank you for listening to this episode. If you enjoy the show and want to help keep it going, consider supporting Crimatorium on Patreon or Ko-Fi. Your contributions, no matter how small, help cover the costs of production and allow more true crime stories to be shared.
Crimeatorium
A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
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Crimeatorium
A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Nearby, Pamela's sister, Penny Butler, witnessed the kidnapping, screaming for her sister. Time seemed to blur for Penny as she helplessly watched her sister being forced into a vehicle. Before she could act, the white pickup truck driven by the strange man sped past their home. In a final taunt to Pamela's family, he shouted, You'll never see her again.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
The neighbors, who also witnessed the kidnapping of little Pamela, tried to intervene, but it was too late. One neighbor jumped in his car following the pickup as it left 11th and Scott Streets, but the truck was too fast, managing to evade the Good Samaritan. Back home, Pamela's sister and other neighbors had managed to write down the license plate on scraps of paper.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Missouri Plate 177-CE2 This would become vital in tracking down the man responsible for one of Kansas' most horrific crimes. The once quiet 11th and Scott Streets, lined with residential homes, had become a hub of police activity. Pamela's sister had called the police shortly after her kidnapping, as had many other witnesses.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Nearly an hour had passed, and police knew the white pickup could be anywhere, easily blending in to the cityscape. By now, the attacker had bought himself time, driving Pamela to Grain Valley, just over the border in Missouri, a territory he was far more familiar with. From here, he dragged Pamela kicking and screaming from the pickup and into a small patch of woods.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
The man stripped Pamela of her clothing before sexually assaulting her. Court records show the medical examiner found that Pamela's hymen had recently been broken. After the brutal sexual assault, Pamela was strangled to death with a piece of electrical cord. The assailant, Keith Nelson, knew that the hunt was on and he had to move quickly.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
That evening, his pickup was seen in the parking lot of the Grain Valley Christian Church in Kansas City, Missouri. The custodian, sensing something unusual, noted the license plate, Missouri 177-CE2. In Kansas, the police rushed to the Butler residence, gathering as many witness statements as possible.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Keith Nelson had a sick plan. He knew he would be going back to prison and wanted to commit a big crime to end his time as a free man. While Keith had told a co-worker about this plan, this was chalked up to Keith just wanting to scare him. Nobody knew that this plan would be enacted in one of the most disturbing manners, right in front of everyone.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Each account mentioned the Missouri license plate and an Afghan seen in the truck's front seat. That evening, Sherry West and the Kansas City Police addressed the community during the 10 o'clock news. News of Pamela's kidnapping quickly spread through the community, and residents began watching for the white pickup.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
This is the tragic story of 10-year-old Pamela Butler. Born March 13, 1989, to Sherry West, Pamela Butler was one of three children. Not much is known about Pamela's early life, and her father was not in the picture. Pamela lived with her family in Kansas City, Kansas, and by all accounts, they were an average American household.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
During the same news, the custodian of the Grain Valley Christian Church heard a crucial detail, Missouri Plate 177-CE2, the same plate he had noted earlier. Unknowingly, he had been in close quarters with a child murderer. He immediately called the police with the information he had, but by the time they arrived, the truck was gone. Pamela's abduction devastated Sherry and her family.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Sherry told police she couldn't imagine who would want to harm her daughter, noting that she had never had any conflicts and never felt their family was being watched or followed. In 1999, crimes against children were becoming more prevalent, forcing society to confront this alarming reality.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
The Amber Alert System, named after nine-year-old Amber Hagerman, was not enacted into law until the early 2000s. Amber, like Pamela, was abducted by a stranger in 1996, leading her parents and advocacy groups to push for a national alert system for missing children.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Although specific criteria must be met for an Amber Alert to be issued, the system and advancements by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children have been instrumental in saving countless lives. While there were no Amber Alerts in Pamela's case, her case was widely circulated thanks to cooperation from TV stations, radio broadcasters, and newspapers at the time.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
It is because of this circulation that Pamela's case progressed so fast. On October 13, 1999, Kansas City Police Department in Missouri made a significant discovery. The white pickup truck used in Pamela's abduction was found abandoned in Kansas City. Although neither Pamela nor her assailant was located, police recovered several pieces of evidence from the vehicle.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Using the license plate and DMV records, police identified the truck as belonging to 25-year-old Keith Nelson. Officers brought dogs to the home of Nelson's mother in hopes of finding additional evidence. It remains unclear whether she disclosed her son's whereabouts to authorities. During the search of the home, police dogs trained with Pamela's scent alerted to an Afghan inside.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Witnesses had previously reported seeing the same Afghan in the white pickup truck used in Pamela's abduction. The discovery intends to manhunt for Keith, with both police and the public actively searching for him. Residents scrutinized strangers, wondering if they were in the presence of the suspect.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
October 13th passed without any developments, but October 14th would bring a significant breakthrough in the case. On October 14th, 1999, Kansas City police received a tip from a civilian police employee who had spotted Keith Nelson hiding under a bridge. Officers responded quickly and a 2018 court document confirmed that their swift action led to his capture.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
The civilian employee pursued Keith as he jumped into a river in an attempt to escape. He was surrounded by workers who detained him until police arrived and made the arrest. The chase was over, but Keith wasn't finished. In an act of defiance, he yelled, I know where she is, but I'm not saying right now. He was then placed into a police car and taken into custody.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Many in the community felt relieved that the suspect had been captured, but concern over Pamela's fate lingered. On October 15, 1999, her body was discovered dumped in the woods behind the Grain Valley Christian Church, concealed under a pilot brush. After murdering and disposing of Pamela's body, Keith Nelson went to his girlfriend's house and later to a local bar.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
His girlfriend later told authorities that Nelson saw the news about Pamela's disappearance but appeared unfazed. An autopsy revealed that Pamela had sustained multiple scrapes and abrasions to her mouth and head as well as blunt force trauma. The report concluded that she died from strangulation with a wire ligature still in place. Semen was also found on Pamela's underwear.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
the FBI confirmed that Keith Nelson had been the source. Nelson was in police custody until a grand jury meeting could take place.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
On October 21, 1999, a federal grand jury charged 25-year-old Keith Nelson with several counts, including kidnapping, unlawful interstate transport, and traveling across state lines with the intent to engage in a sex act with a female under the age of 12, which resulted in her death. Pamela's family was devastated by her murder, and the community was outraged by the details of the crime.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
The three children were all enrolled at the local school, and Pamela was noted as being a good student. She was kind, bright, and intelligent and had the whole world ahead of her. October 12, 1999 was an unremarkable day, no different from the rest to Pamela and her siblings. Pamela spent the day at Fisk Elementary School before returning home.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
many called for Nelson to face the death penalty. It took several years for Nelson to go to trial, and when he did, he pleaded guilty to the initial charges of kidnapping and unlawful interstate transport. After being indicted, Keith Nelson attempted to take his own life by ingesting prescription medication. However, the attempt was thwarted, and he survived.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Court documents later revealed that as part of a plea agreement, the second count of the indictment was dismissed. During the trial, Nelson presented claims and expert testimony asserting that he had numerous mental health issues. He testified that he had a difficult upbringing, describing his father as an alcoholic who abused his mother, Nancy, as well as him and his siblings.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
He also claimed he had been subjected to sexual abuse as a child at the hands of one of his mother's boyfriends. Dr. Xavier Amador, a clinical and forensic psychologist, was just one of the many expert witnesses Nelson called to his defense.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Dr. Amador testified that in his opinion, following an evaluation of Nelson, he suffered frontal lobe dysfunction and his mental health was impaired by an unspecified disorder.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Dr. Amador also testified that during the kidnapping and murder of Pamela Butler, Nelson was severely mentally ill and in a dissociative state, meaning he was unable to appreciate the nature and quality or wrongfulness of his acts. Dr. Amador was not alone in his analysis and several other forensic psychologists and neurologists came to the same conclusion.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Keith Nelson's defense desperately tried to paint him in a sympathetic light, painting him as a man with several mental illnesses and deformity who could not understand nor gauge the seriousness of his behavior. What Nelson's defense didn't anticipate is the evidence brought forward by another victim of his.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
During the case against Nelson, the state presented compelling evidence that his actions were premeditated. Pamela may not have been his first target, as Nelson had already attacked another individual just days earlier. On October 2, 1999, Nelson assaulted Michonne Mattson, a medical student in Kansas City, Missouri.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
According to Mattson's testimony, Nelson held a knife to her throat and attempted to drag her from her apartment to his white pickup. he managed to handcuff her left hand while threatening her with a knife. Nelson told Michonne Mattson that he would cut her throat if she said anything, repeating, Keep quiet, you fucking bitch. I'll kill you if you say anything.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Incredibly, Michonne Mattson managed to push Nelson off her, but forgot she was still handcuffed. Nelson grabbed the handcuff, pulling Michonne along with it, repeating the phrase, fucking bitch. Michonne reported to police that she dropped to her knees and went limp, hoping to escape Nelson's grasp. She was then able to roll away from him.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Nelson, knowing he couldn't overpower Michonne, ran for his truck, periodically looking back at her. Michonne then claimed that while running and looking back, Nelson called her a fucking bitch and said, if you look at me, bitch, I'll kill you. Don't look at me. Better run, bitch. I'll kill you. Michonne managed to escape and reported the incident to the police.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
At the time, little progress was made in the case, and authorities had no way of knowing that her attacker, Keith Nelson, would strike again. The state also called another witness, James Shannon Robinson, who had worked with Keith in construction. Robinson told the court that on September 29, 1999, while at a job site, Nelson expressed a dark fantasy to him.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Nelson told Robinson that he wanted to kidnap a woman and take her to a remote location where he could torture, rape, electrocute, and then kill her. Nelson also mentioned that he wanted to bury the women at a remote location. Shaken by the conversation, Robinson chose to keep it to himself.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
Not one to waste a good day, Pamela asked her mother, Sherry, if she could go to the store to buy some cookies. Sherry knew that her daughter was responsible and entrusted her to go to the shop and come straight back. Shortly before 5pm, Pamela laced up her rollerblades and glided to the store. Unbeknownst to Pamela, a man was waiting nearby.
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A Life Cut Short | The Tragic Case of Pamela Butler
At the job site, Nelson further stated that he was headed back to prison and intended to commit a major crime, what he referred to as his criminal magnum opus. Another piece of evidence that was entered into trial was the testimony of an acquaintance of Keith Nelson. At 4 p.m. on October 12, 1999, mere hours before Pamela was kidnapped, Nelson divulged his fantasy once more.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My name is Robert Mercado.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't believe so, but I don't remember.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Had you had communications with him after you were married?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She also removed some bullet fragments from the inside of the skull, packaged those up, and sent the bullet fragments, all the bones, back to the medical examiner's office. Law enforcement continued to investigate this crime. During the investigation, detectives spoke with a man named Robert Seha. He was a neighbor of the defendants, and I'll show you a resonance of the nearby.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And he was aware of the marriage? Yes. And therefore aware that your name had changed from Snyder to Holmes?
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Yes. Leading judge.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I messaged him multiple times a couple weeks before just to solidify the event. And after that, he just texted me back saying that we were canceling it.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Oh, please proceed. So he would be aware of that? Yes. In 2015, where were you living?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was living in Lawrence at the time.
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I'm sorry, where?
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In Lawrence, New York.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Robert Sehaw is going to tell you that about a month or two before law enforcement came to the Shaver residence to do this well-being check, which led to the unerbening of Michael Shaver's body, the defendant approached Mr. Sehaw and offered to sell him a pink and black .38 caliber handgun.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there a period of time in 2018 where you reached out, I'm sorry, 2016, where you reached out to Michael Shaver and attempted to communicate with him?
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Yes. And how did you do that? I just called the messenger.
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When that communication occurred, would that have been after the wedding? Yes. After your name change? Yes. And when you sent that message, was that through your profile? Yes. And so it would have reflected your name of Desiree Russell.
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The defendant indicated she needed the money to pay some bills, and Robert Sehaw bought this .38 caliber pink and black handgun from the defendant. Now law enforcement took this gun because of the .38 caliber and the projectile found inside Michael Shaver's skull was of a .38 caliber class.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I had gotten a new Facebook, so it might have been from my previous Facebook.
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So the gun, that .38 caliber gun that the defendant sold to Mr. Sayhoff was sent along with the projectile recovered from Mr. Shaver's skull to the Ford Department of Law Enforcement for firearms analysis. Firearms analyst Megan Cleek examined that .38 caliber firearm and found it to be in working order. It was functional. It could be fired.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm going to show what a previously marked mistake is a bit. Why? I'll show that to the defense. I'm showing you a communication. Why? Do you recognize this communication between yourself and the Facebook account of Michael Shea?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
November 11, 2015, Wednesday, came along. Michael Shaver was supposed to work that day as well. Mr. Shaver didn't show up. He'd call in and say, hey, what's going on? I can't make it to work. So now that he has not shown up for work for two straight days and not called anyone letting him know, Michael Shaver's boss, John Borglum, gets involved.
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Yes, I do.
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She fired some test fires from that gun to then be able to take those test fire projectiles, scientifically and microscopically try to compare to the projectile found in Michael Shaver's skull to see if they were fired from the same gun. And she'll explain to you that Every gun, when it fires a projectile, leaves impressions on the projectile.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And have you reached out? to Mr. Shaver in 2016, and is that reflected there in those messages?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And it's an accurate documentation of the messages that you said have been received from the Michael Schaefer Facebook page?
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Now, I'm going to go ahead and start you with the first message that was sent here on August 15, 2016. Was that message from you? Yes. And what was the content of that message?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And some of those impressions, if they're clear enough, they're unique. And then in certain situations, not always, but sometimes, she can microscopically examine the projectile and say, this projectile was fired by this gun because the microscopic impressions left match.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was just saying hello to my uncle. It says, hey, Uncle Michael.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Though the projectile found in Michael Shaver's skull, that .38 caliber class projectile was capable of being fired from the gun, the impressions and the markings on the projectile were not clear enough for her to make any other determinations. Nothing indicated that the projectile found in Michael Shaver's skull could not have been fired from the gun.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And above that is the response that you received?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there anything unusual about your correspondence with him about that event after November 10th of 2002?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what was that response?
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Who are you?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did you respond to that?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what was your response?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm your niece.
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Did Michael's Facebook account respond to you when you said that you were the niece?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
For instance, that projectile wasn't excluded as being fired from the gun. There was just not enough detail in the projectile for her to say, definitively, this bullet found in the skull was fired from this bullet. Now remember, we talked about Michael Shaver's friends and family had no direct, either seeing him or speaking to him, hearing this voice. No direct contact with Michael Shaver.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what was that response?
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I don't have any family anymore. I have no clue who you are. Never stop messaging me.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that message appears to have been sent on September 20, 2016? Yes.
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No further questions. My name is Wiggs.
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Yes, may I please report?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
after that weekend of November 7th, 2015. You'll hear that in December of 2015, a man named Travis Filmer came into the picture, came into the defendant's life. Travis Filmer was a man that the defendant met at a gym around December of 2015, and the defendant and Travis Filmer began to date, and shortly thereafter, Travis Filmer moved into the Shaver residence.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Ma'am, the last time you saw Michael Shaver was what, 2001? That era time?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Around there.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
around there, okay? He was relatively estranged from his father, correct?
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Do you know Michael Schindler?
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I don't know.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You don't know, okay? You made no trips to Florida, correct?
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You never went to the Shaver residence, correct?
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the same residence that Michael Shaver's body was found in the backyard. You'll hear that around the end of April of 2016, a posting to the defendant's Facebook account showed a large number of concrete bags in the bed of a pickup truck. Since Michael Shaver's body was found under a concrete slab, law enforcement obviously became interested in this information.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Michael Shaver was pretty much on his own outside the family, was he not?
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There were no visits, no homecomings, correct?
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When he would visit us.
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Last time you saw him, about 2001, correct? Yeah. Okay. In your email thread that's moved into evidence at this stage, do you know the physical address it went to?
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Yeah, he kind of just stopped talking to me and said he wanted to be left alone.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So after Michael Shaver's body was found, Law enforcement obtained the Facebook records from both Michael Shaver's Facebook account and the defendant's Facebook account. And they looked into trying to determine, that's how they found that picture of the concrete in the vetted pickup truck. And they started looking to determine when did that concrete slab before get there.
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His Facebook profile.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Could it not be somebody at Starbucks using his account? Could have been, could it? Reasonable? Yeah. Right. Could have been somebody in Michael Shaver's house, other than Michael Shaver, correct? I mean, I guess. Yeah. Could have been Michael Shaver himself, correct? Yes. Right. Thank you.
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Detectives discovered a receipt from Home Depot, dated September 12, 2016, that Travis Filmer rented a concrete mixer. And you'll hear that Travis Filmer and his twin brother, Austin Filmer, poured that concrete slab and laid that concrete slab with that concrete mixer that Travis Filmer rented from Home Depot.
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St. Paul's, Scott, you must know? Did you know Michael Shaver?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How did you know him?
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We were best friends.
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And when did you first meet Michael?
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It's about second grade.
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And where were you all living at this time?
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In a small town, Lawrence, New York.
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And what about Lori Shaver? When did you first meet her?
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That was about 10 months after the November time period when nobody had ever seen Mr. Schaefer, Michael Schaefer. As law enforcement officers continued to investigate this case, they received a couple of names from defendant's defense lawyer, Mr. Williams, as people who potentially have been involved in this homicide. Those names were James Ballew and Jeremy Townsend.
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Was that out of character for him?
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We had all known each other since about kindergarten. We all went to the same K-12 school. I didn't really start to hang out with her until they started to date.
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When did Michael and Lori first start dating?
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It was about eighth grade.
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Specifically, were you present when they first got together?
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Yes, he asked her out in my bedroom.
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Absolutely.
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Did he make any special requests to you at that time?
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Yeah, he had me play boys to men in the background.
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Doing their due diligence, law enforcement went and made contact with those two people. You'll hear from James Ballew. He'll tell you that he met the defendant in about 2014 when he was working at Don Neely Chevrolet and sold her a truck. Though James Ballew was married at the time, Mr. Ballew began a romantic relationship with the defendant in 2014.
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Did you maintain a relationship with them after everyone graduated high school?
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Nothing further. Mr. Wiggs? Yes.
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Did you stay in New York after high school?
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Yes, there was periods of time where I moved to Florida, moved back to New York, moved back to Florida.
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John Borglum tried to reach out to Mr. Shaver to find out what's going on. He did so, and John Borglum got a text from Michael Shaver's phone indicating he's not coming to work. that he was having issues at home, that he was in Georgia, and to go ahead and fire him. The evidence will show, ladies and gentlemen, that Michael Shaver was not in Georgia. Michael Shaver was dead.
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What about Michael and Lori? Did they maintain their relationship after high school? Yes. Did you maintain your friendship with both of them?
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Did they stay in New York? What did they do?
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The defendant wanted a more serious relationship than what Mr. Ballou wanted. Mr. Ballou was not interested in that kind of a serious relationship with the defendant. That relationship lasted only a few months when Mr. Ballou ended it around the middle of 2014 in order to go try to work things out with his wife. From that point on, James Ballou had no contact with Lori Scherer.
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We all tended to kind of follow each other around. It's just how it worked out. So, you know, I would live in New York and they happened to be in New York. I moved to Florida. Eventually they would move to Florida. It just happened to work out that way. Eventually we all settled down in Florida.
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Mr. Mercado, did you ever call over there to transport Mr. Shaver to or from the residence? Yes. Okay. What was that regarding? Depends, really, which time. Was there more than one time?
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When they were living in Claremont, Florida, where were you living?
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Gainesville, Florida, for most of that time. And then I had moved to St. Petersburg, Florida, toward the end.
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So at that time when James Ballou ended the contact, Mike Scherer was clearly still alive as people had seen him. Law enforcement also tracked down Jeremy Townsend. You'll hear from both Jeremy Townsend and his wife, Vanessa Townsend.
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Now, at some point, did you start dating a woman by the name of Katina Vasquez?
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When did that happen?
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That started about 2008. It's been so long, 2006, 2007, that time frame.
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Jeremy Townsend will tell you that he met the defendant in a park around September or October of 2015, about one or two months before Michael Shaver dropped on the face of the earth. Jeremy would take his and his wife's child to the park where he would meet up and where he met Lori Shaver, who was there at the park with her child.
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Where did that relationship begin? New York. And at some point, were you and Katina engaged? Yes. And did she come with you and move down to Florida in one of these time frames where you were living down here, Michael and Warrie were living down here?
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How do you know Michael?
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Jeremy and his wife Vanessa were going through marital problems at the time. And Jeremy and the defendant began an affair. That affair started around December of 2015, about a month after Michael Shaver was last ever seen or heard from. Mr. Townsend would go to the Shaver residence during the defendant's lunch hour. He and the defendant would meet up sexually.
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And when they came down, did Katina and Lori become friends with each other?
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They became close friends.
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Now, I want to move to March of 2015. Were you still dating Katina at that time?
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March 2015, no.
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After you and Katina ended your relationship, did she maintain a friendship with Laura Shearer?
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And Jeremy Townsend will explain to you that he never met Michael Shaver. And the defendant told him that she and Michael Shaver were divorced. The defendant told Jeremy Townsend the same story that she's told other people that Michael Shaver, someone came and picked up Michael Shaver, took him to Georgia, and she hasn't seen from him since.
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Going back to that March of 2015, was there a time frame that Michael Shearer came to visit you at your home after the breakup with Katina?
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Yes. If I recall, that was November of 2014. Okay.
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The same story that Robert Mercado, the person she says picked Michael Shaver up, says it never happened. Around February of 2016, the affair between Jeremy Townsend and the defendant basically started falling apart. The defendant wanted more out of the relationship than it was.
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What was the status of the relationship between Mike and Lori at that time?
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He didn't really talk too much about how their relationship was. I could tell there was some tension and they were on and off. I don't believe they were dating at that time.
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There's speculation as to emotional feelings and mental processes of another individual. Sustained.
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Jeremy Townsend saw this relationship as more of a sexual fling type relationship, didn't want to get serious, but the defendant did. The defendant wanted Jeremy Townsend to file for divorce from his wife and wanted Jeremy Townsend to move in with her into the Shaver residence, same residence Michael Shaver's body was found buried behind.
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Did you see him in July of that year?
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I did, July 2015.
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Where was that? At his house. And was this the last time you ever saw him in person? I did. After November 2015, did you speak to him by phone or have any contact with him? No. Did you attempt to reach out to him between November 2015 and 2008?
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Jeremy Townsend didn't want that, didn't want to divorce his wife, didn't want to get that serious, and decided that he wanted to work things out for his own wife. Jeremy Townsend and the defendant argued about the status of their relationship together. The defendant started giving Jeremy Townsend the ultimatum. You get rid of your wife, come be with me.
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A few texts, and that's it.
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Did he ever respond to any of your texts? No. In 2018, did you have a conversation with Katina that she had about a visit to the Baristas in November of 2015?
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Yeah, that conversation was actually toward the end of 2017, maybe early 2018. It was right after my then relationship had ended. That's how I can pinpoint that.
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Or she was going to expose the affair to Jeremy Townsend's wife. A few months after this fight, between Jeremy Townsend and the defendant about exposing the affair, Jeremy Townsend's wife, Vanessa Townsend, received flowers. A few months after this fight between the defendant and Jeremy Townsend, where the defendant threatened to expose this affair, Jeremy would be his wife and come meet with her.
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Did the information that you got give you further concern about Michael Shaver and the safe?
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Absolutely.
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Once you got that information, what did you do?
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Yeah, I used to go over there all the time.
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I messaged Mike's sister on Facebook, told her what I had found out. I told her I'm going to file a missing person report based on that information. It was disturbing. I then called the sheriff's office.
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Jeremy Townsend's wife, Vanessa Townsend, received some flowers at the school where she worked as a teacher, and it was a message with those flowers. The message indicated, check your Facebook account. So Vanessa Townsend checked her Facebook account, and she noticed that she received a message from Facebook the same day she received these flowers from somebody reporting to be Michael.
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And have you talked with Michael Shaver's family about their inability to get in contact with Mr. Shaver during this period as well? I did. I have no further questions.
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Was there any time that you transported, removed any goods of his, any items of clothing with him, leaving the residence?
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Mr. Wiggs, do you know about any injunctions that have been imposed against Michael Shaver?
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I knew of one. What was that? 2014, 2015, somewhere around that. I don't know the specific details of that.
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Remember, this is about six months after anybody had seen or ever saw Michael Shaver. The message says, on November of 2015, and this is April of 2016. Vanessa Towson received this Facebook message from someone claiming to be Michael Shaver, which said that she'll be getting a special delivery. There was also a phone number associated with the delivery of those flowers in that Facebook message.
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A direct examination, we heard you recall days pretty quickly, correct? Pretty specifically, correct? Yes. You remember an injunction, but you think it may be 14, maybe 15, correct? Correct. But you know there was an injunction, correct? Correct. Right. So Michael was not in the house for a certain period of time you were aware of, correct? Correct.
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We first met at work in our apprenticeship, mechanical apprenticeship, and from there on we hit it off.
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After not showing up for work for several days, after knowing that Michael Shaver had not shown up to work for several days, Frank Merritt went to the Shaver residence and made contact with his wife, the defendant, Ms. Laurie Shaver. Frank Merritt asked about Michael. The defendant said Michael Shaver, her husband at the time, was in Georgia.
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Do you know where any messages came from? I had never received any messages from Mike.
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She accepted this friend request from the person supposedly being Michael Shaver and noticed that there were previous messages to her from this same person claiming to be Michael Shaver over the preceding months. She had not seen those Facebook messages beforehand because she wasn't a friend of Michael Shaver and didn't notice that they were there.
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Okay. When was the last day you received a message, and do you know where it came from?
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It would have been around that time that I had last seen him at his house, and I had never heard from him after that. Okay.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks. Introduce yourself.
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So when she looked at those messages sent purportedly from Michael Shaver's Facebook account, she noticed those messages included screenshots of conversation between Jeremy Townsend and the defendant. They included photographs of Jeremy Townsend and the defendant together. They were evidence and proof of the affair that the defendant was having with Jeremy Townsend.
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The one time I picked him up from court and took him to his residence. To obtain some things?
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My name is Corey Anderson, and I'm employed with the Lake County Sheriff's Office.
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How long have you worked for the Sheriff's Office?
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Since 2005.
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Back in 2018, what was your position?
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And these messages coincidentally started very shortly after the fight between Jeremy Townsend and the defendant, where the defendant was giving Jeremy Townsend an ultimatum, told you your wife or I'll expose the affair.
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I was a corporal on Role Patrol.
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In February of 2018, were you tasked with performing a well-being check on Warren Michael Shank? Yes, sir. Before that, where did you go?
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The evidence will show that these messages, these Facebook messages and photos and flowers were clearly an effort to expose the affair, drive a wedge between Jeremy Townsend and Vanessa Townsend and drive Jeremy back to the defendant. It didn't work. After much work with their marriage, Jeremy Townsend and Vanessa Townsend got back together and they were being married.
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So I went to the Sandy Pines Road in Claremont.
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Was that in Lake County?
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That is in Lake County, yes, sir.
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And was that one of the last known residents of Michael's?
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And who all was there that you made contact with at that time?
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So myself and Deputy Kyle Morrison.
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Okay. Who did you make contact with at the same restaurant?
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Law enforcement obviously wanted to investigate the source of these flowers with another campaign from Michael Shaver. Michael Shaver did. They obtained search warrants. They obtained a search warrant, like I said, for the defendant's Facebook account and Michael Shaver's Facebook account.
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Oh, I'm sorry. I made contact with Ms. Lori Shaver. Okay.
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And you see her and recognize her in court today?
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Yes, sir, I do.
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And when you got there, did you tell her?
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Yeah, to pick up his things. And were you there at any time when there was any violence between Mr. Shaver and Ms. Shaver?
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Did you ask?
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I did, sir.
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They found those Facebook messages from Michael Shaver's account to Vanessa Townsend's account talking about the affair, photos, and the flowers, and the delivery, and things like that. They issued subpoenas for the defendant's bank records, for the victim's bank records, and you're going to see that the defendant and Michael Shaver have separate bank accounts.
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What did she where did she tell him?
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She said that she hasn't seen him since, I think, October 2014, and that he kind of just absconded the family.
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And did she mention to you if she had any phone or text contact with him since that?
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She did mention that he had not reached out to the children or her in some time.
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Detectives issued a subpoena for the defendant's cell phone records for Michael Shaver's. And eventually law enforcement officers received all of these records and started to pour through them when they came in.
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Did you ask her if it was okay to look in the backyard?
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Yes, sir, I did.
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Why were you interested in the backyard?
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Part of the information that we received on the well-being check was that there was a new cement slab. Is there a cement slab?
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They found that Michael Shaver's cell phone had no outgoing calls after November 7th of 2015, which coincides with the last time anyone had ever seen or directed this post from Michael Shaver. The defendant's cell phone records didn't show any phone calls or texts to Michael Shaver's number.
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Yes, sir. Come on up for a sidebar. Thank you. Did you go in the backyard?
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Yes, sir, I did. I observed a cement slab in the backyard where there was, it looked to be like brick rock structure that created the fire pit.
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In the course of your law enforcement career, have you responded to scenes that involved bodies buried in shelters? Yes, sir, I have. And possibly how many times have you... made those types of pops?
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Detectives looked at the defendant's bank records and you'll hear that they traced the purchase of those flowers that were sent to Vanessa Townsend as coming out of the defendant's bank account. Further evidence that the defendant was the one that was responsible for sending those flowers and sending the Facebook messages acting as if she was Michael Schaefer to Vanessa Townsend.
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I've been on those scenes, probably between five and 10 scenes similar to that. Yes, sir.
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Okay. So you witnessed that? Yes. And there was a 911 call, correct? Not at that time, no. Okay. Did you have to get between Mr. Shaver?
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And was there anything that you saw about the cement slab itself that gave you some concerns?
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Remember I said that there was a phone number associated with that Facebook message that I sent to Vanessa Townsend? Well, they traced, they looked into that phone number and determined that phone number was associated also with the defendant. Further evidence said the defendant was the one portraying herself to be Michael Shaver, after Michael Shaver died.
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And what was that?
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So as I approached the cement slab, you could clearly see a depression that was approximately between six feet and three feet in dimension and about eight inches depressed. had the shape of what could be a normal-sized adult body.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Because there were a variety of sources indicating that they received text messages or Facebook messages from Michael Shaver after that November 7th, 2015 weekend, detectives dove deeper into the records and deeper especially into those Facebook records to see if they could find evidence that someone was logging into Michael Shaver's Facebook records and portraying himself to be Michael Shaver.
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Did you take photographs of that meth sloth at that time?
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Yes, sir, I did. With my cell phone?
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Yes, sir. I'm showing witness when it's produced at the Mark 6 exhibit. See? She recognized those photographs.
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He said that a co-worker of Mike's, a guy named Robert Garcado, picked Mr. Shaver up and drove him to Georgia, and he was gone. The defendant said that Michael Shaver left because she and Mr. Shaver had an argument. Frank Barrett did notice that Michael Shaver's car was still on the Shaver residence property and it had a flat tire. Frank Merritt texted Michael Shaver here and there several times.
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Yes, sir. I took these photographs with my phone.
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And is that a fair and accurate depiction of the cement slab you saw the day that you were out there with?
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But Michael Shaver was dead. And the detectives found such evidence. detectives investigated the internet protocol addresses provided by Facebook for the accounts of both the defendant and Michael Shaver's Facebook accounts. And for those of you who are not IT directors, an internet protocol, you'll hear that an internet protocol address or an IT address is kind of like a physical address.
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Now, Corporal Anderson, is this the first photograph that's in States No. 14? Yes, sir. It is. Yes. Now, can you step down and just demonstrate to the jury the area that Gaby falls in concern when you're out there? Oh, here? Yes. Okay.
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So, obviously, I took this picture, so I'm really standing right here looking at the sentence lap. Lady Ms. Shaver was on my left, and Deputy Morrison was across from me. As I approached...
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It is assigned to a particular location through the internet provider like Spectrum, Verizon, Cox, whatever it is that provides internet service to a house or a business. So for example, when I am home, my home is assigned a unique IP address to my house through my internet provider, which just happens to be Spectrum. That IP address is what gives my home access to the internet.
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With permission to be on the property, I just snapped a few shots with my cell phone so that I could really portray what I'm actually seeing to supervisors, to the criminal investigation bureau for a previous investigation.
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So the second photograph, is this the other photograph that you took? Correct, yes, sir. Now, can you show the jury the area of that depression that you previously described? This darkened area is the depression.
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That IP address is unique to my house. It's going to be different than my neighbor's. It's going to be different than Starbucks. It's unique to me or to my house. Also on my home or as a business, a business is a device called a router. A router is a device that allows multiple devices inside the house.
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I had to get between both of them. Okay.
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It was about six feet in length and about three feet in width. And it appears to be like a mentioned cement slab where it wouldn't be as thick and couldn't have a depression if there was a shallow grave there.
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to connect to the internet at the same time, such as if I'm on my phone, if I'm on my laptop, if my wife is on her phone and her laptop, they all can be used together and access the internet. The router sends out a signal to those devices. All of us and all those devices will share the same IP address because that IP address is unique to my house.
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And when we're talking about the depression, are you saying that it was not flat across? Correct.
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So you could actually see where that darkening area is where it was depressed and water would settle there, which is brought the dirt that stays in the area.
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And just to make sure everyone's clear, can you just point to the area on that slide that shows this? This is the defroshing area. Thank you. Now, after these observations were made by you, did the sheriff's office obtain a search warrant to further search that area and the backyard of the Shaver residence? Yes, sir. Were you involved in the actual excavation of that area?
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So if I log into Facebook with my phone and I post a photo or I post a message or I do something to my account, Facebook, the organization of Facebook keeps those records and they keep the IP addresses associated with the device that activated Facebook. Often the internet provider will change IP addresses, but ultimately they are unique to the house.
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When Mr. Shaver left the residence, do you know where he resided? No.
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I was not actually involved in the excavation, but I was on scene for security. So I'm basically keeping a media within the Shaver residence just so that we can maintain our...
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So if I'm at home, I'm logging onto Facebook, and Mr. D'Amusio decides to come over to my house, and he logs into my network, we're going to be sharing the same ID address at that same time, because we're in the same general location, the same house, using the same network and the same ID address.
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Between the time frame when you made those alterations, did the sheriff's office maintain security with this scene until it was searched? Yes, sir, we did. And when we talk about maintaining that scene or securing it, what does that entail?
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I took him home with me that night, and then the following day, he stayed at the Warbirds Museum hangar for roughly the better part of a year after that. Okay. Did you witness any homicide in this case? No, sir.
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Detectives received those Facebook records from the defendant's account and Michael Shaver's account from November of 2015 up through about November of 2017.
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So it was 24-hour security where a deputy sheriff sat out in front of the property, and it was 12-hour shifts. So we had 24-hour coverage on the property until we secured that scene for it.
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When the detectives got those IP addresses from Facebook, unfortunately they were not able to determine the physical address that that IP address was assigned to because those records were too old and they had been purged by the internet service provider. They shouldn't exist anymore.
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And during that time frame, were you able to maintain visual sight on this area in the cement slot? Not you personally, but were you in position to observe it and make sure the property had not been checked? Correct. Yes, sir. Nothing further, Judge?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But what they were able to determine is that during that three-year period of time, from around November 2015 to November 2017, Michael Shaver's Facebook remained active despite the fact that he did. There were postings during that period of time. There were photos posted. There were funny little memes posted on his account. His profile picture had changed. His account had been deactivated.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right, Mr. Wiggs? Yes, thank you, Judge. Perfect. All right. Yes, sir. Okay. Now, so you know what this ground looked like prior to this concrete VMA? I don't, sir. Okay. Do you know if this would have been dug out and it created a natural inclination for the concrete to be placed?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you remember Mr. Schafer saying that prior to Mr. Schafer leaving, they would need to create some type of ducting room? But they didn't.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There was activity. Some of the activity on Michael Shaver's Facebook account actually occurred after that concrete slab under which his body was found was actually poured. So we know Michael Shaver couldn't have been doing it back then.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You have a little more experience of law enforcement investigations than a lot of people, correct? Some. Okay. Sustained. Okay. Invited to this status of a corporal. Correct. Okay. And this dark spot led you to believe there might be a body up there, correct?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When they examined the IP addresses associated with Michael Shaver and the defendant's Facebook account during that time period, detectives noticed that the same IP address was used by both the defendant's and Michael Shaver's Facebook accounts. Sometimes those Facebook accounts were accessed using the same IP address with the evidence of each other.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
A shallow grave, for sure, but not necessarily a body. You see a dark spot over there? Correct. Was there a body over there? Not in that specific area, Mr. We see shading back in here.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there any evidence of the crime there? I didn't see any. Okay. You see shadow areas throughout this, around these posts and stuff. Was there any evidence of a crime or a bump in our body under any of those locations? No, sir. Okay. So when y'all were out there doing the excavation, Ms. Shaber remained there at the residence, correct? Correct. For most of the time, she was free to leave.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The evidence will show that because those accounts share that same IP address within sometimes minutes of activity on each of the accounts, that's consistent with those devices. Accessing accounts, people appear in the same.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He got responses occasionally from Michael Shaver's phone, but never had the ability to speak directly with Michael Shaver to verify that Mr. Shaver was the one sending those messages. As I said, the evidence will show that Michael Shaver was dead. He was not the one responding to those text messages. I'm just going to show that the defendant gradually got rid of Michael Shaver's property.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The evidence will show that such activity, combined with common sense and all of the other circumstances in this case, is consistent with the defendant logging in to Michael Shaver's Facebook account and posting things portraying herself to be Michael Shaver or acting as if she was Michael Shaver. The evidence will show that she did this to carry on the facade that Michael Shaver was still alive.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, did she leave? She did. She did? Mm-hmm. Didn't she try to take flight in any manner about returning to the property? No, sir. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Welcome to Crimatorium. Laurie Shaver was a Florida woman whose seemingly ordinary life unraveled when authorities uncovered the body of her husband, Michael Shaver, buried in the backyard beneath a concrete slab. Michael, born in New York and just 33 years old at the time, was a Disney employee who disappeared in 2015. For years, Larry claimed he had simply walked away from their marriage.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Please introduce yourself to the jury.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Hi, I'm Jessica Wade. Where do you work? I work with the Lake County Sheriff's Office.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
To carry on the facade and alleviate the concerns of his friends or family members who may inquire. To alleviate the concerns of law enforcement who may be asked to go look into where Michael Shaver is. Done to torment Vanessa Townsend by sending her message portraying herself as Michael Shaver who exposed the affair between the defendant and Jeremy Townsend. All of this done after Michael Shaver.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What do you do for them?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I am currently a crime scene investigator.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Let me direct your attention to March 9th of 2018. Did you respond to 9850 Sandy Pines Road in Claremont?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is that in Malik County?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you know what Mr. Shaver was doing 24 hours before his death?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you arrived there, tell the jury a picture of what you saw and what was going on.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The scene was a large piece of property that was completely fenced off with multiple other fenced off paddocks for animals. The residence was a manufactured home and it was closest to the road on that piece of property. And then there were multiple marked and unmarked law enforcement vehicles.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Ladies and gentlemen, as I said, this is a case about common sense. When you look at all the evidence, you listen to the testimony of all the witnesses, you examine all the circumstances, not the least of which is Michael Shaver's body was found buried under a concrete slab in the backyard of the defendant's residence.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Had a search warrant been obtained that allowed you and other crime scene investigators, law enforcement officers, and the like to go to that scene to search for evidence?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There can only be one common sense conclusion, and that is the defendant is guilty beyond any reasonable doubt.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, we've heard the states open, and we've heard one repeated statement. Common sense. Just use your common sense. It's all about common sense. Now, the judge is going to give you instructions, and he's going to give you boundaries under the law. And it's not going to say, just find the defendant guilty by common sense. That's the state stand.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is that search warrant signed by a judge? Yes. Once that search warrant was obtained and you all went out there to the scene, did you begin to process that scene?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not immediately.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At some point, did you?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, sir. Do you know who was present with Mr. Shaver 24 hours before his death? No, I do not. Some of his stuff so he can leave the residence and while he was doing that I started to hear arguments and they started fighting just arguments and at that time when I walked in I noticed that she had a gun in her hand, and she was waving it around saying she was going to hurt herself.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Generally, what is the term processing a scene in?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Again, it's where we go and observe what we have, and then to locate and document the items that are there.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
During that process, were photographs taken?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The facts are far different from what the state is pronounced here today. And let me tell you, really, how this case originated, what was done and what was not done by the state and the states. Lori Shaver, who lived with Michael Shaver, got married to these young kids. while he showed up. And it was a tumultuous barrage. Went on for years and years.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You mentioned photographs were taken? Yes. Showing you what's in market stations and if that all happened previously, could you say to look into that item and tell me if you recognize the contents? Yes. Yes. We're going to go through them individually, but generally, what do those photographs show?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Those are of the scene throughout the process.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing you photo one of Saints 15. What are we looking at here?
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That is a bird's eye view of most of the property.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there a dirt mound located about 400 feet away from the residence?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So it was a lot of physical violence that turned out in this sentence. A lot. You'll see that there were injunctions imposed, that Michael was unannounced, he was unannounced. It was all going wrong. And the shavers had some children. This was not a pleasant answer. Mr. Shaver, you'll hear, was very possessive. He was very combative. He was very destructive.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing you photograph 10 of Saints 15. Is that what you're referring to?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was ground penetrating radar brought into the scene to assist in looking around?
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And who brought that in?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Dr. Sutton with the University of Florida.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was the ground penetrating radar run over this section?
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And generally, without going into real great detail, what did it show?
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Dr. Sutton advised us that she visualized an anomaly on her role on the screen, which shows basically that there's a disturbance within the service.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He opposed fear in his family over and over again. And Ms. Shaver did not want to be with Mr. Shaver. That was clear. But Ms. Shaver did not resort to violence at any time, in any form, in any manner. What happened was Mr. Shaver was corrected to be out of the residence. And as the state announced, yes, she began to date other people. One, Mr. and another guy, Jeremy Townsend.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So what was done in this area that was about 400 feet away from the main residence?
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as far as.
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Was it estimated a little bit?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Explain how, what was done and how that happened.
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We start out and we do, it has to be done layers at a time, usually a few inches. And each time we get to a certain point, we stop and document with photography, anything that's there. So the lack or the presence of any items. And if there's nothing there, then we document the dust and then we continue on into the next step.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And ultimately, after that process, in this area on the property, were any human remains found there?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The state didn't know about Jeremy Townsend until we told them about Jeremy Townsend. What happened was Mr. Townsend had been in a military. I think he was in Special Forces and trained for Special Forces. And he began to take more. This relationship was not as the state would suggest, some might think. This went on for months and months.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
About how deep did you guys dig to make that determination?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We had to dig for about 60 feet.
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Okay. All right, referring back to the fire pit that you've described in that concrete slab, was there something written in the concrete slab in the concrete? Yes. First of all, can you point where that was located?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you talk about your apprenticeship at work, where did you go?
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It's right here on the edge.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, and what was written there? What emblem was there?
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There's a heart shape with the letters T, the plus sign, and L. Was that kind of like in the concrete before the concrete would have hardened?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And all we have to think is Mr. Townsend was confronted because his tune changed. Mr. Townsend, even after these charges were filed, was still following Mrs. Hsieh. Still here. Still stalking her. This was a man that was infatuated with Morris Hsieh. Now, they did live on Anchorage, and there was, as the state suggests, an intent to build this stockpile. It was going to be a family affair.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. All right, showing you again photograph eight of states 11. Was there something unusual in that concrete area near the fire fence that drew your attention?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She sold his four-wheelers, sold some expensive tools, sold guns. She knew Michael Shaver wasn't coming back. She knew Michael Shaver wasn't going to need those things because she knew Michael Shaver is dead. You're going to hear from Robert Mercado, the person that the defendant indicated taking Michael Shaver out of the drove into Georgia.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
First of all, point where that was located.
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It would be right here on the far side.
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And kind of describe what was unusual about it.
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So that area was kind of depressed. It was like sinking in, and then it's also got a lot of discoloration on it.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
kids were out there helping them trying to build it and it settles like what I understand they kind of got wore down with the project so they kind of abandoned their little project during the sire at that stage but leaving some ground partially exposed that was the
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Show me photo 12 of Stakes 15. Where was that depressed area in this photograph?
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The depression is right here.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
On the bottom right of the photograph?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And photograph 13 of Stakes 15, is that another angle of it?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was brown penetrating radar also brought into this area and run over top of this depressed area?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
it was not designed by Lori Shaver to bury Mr. Shaver for the carry out some nefarious intent in the future that's how that came about though now what happened was Mr. Shaver Mr. Townsend was having this affair with Lori And Mr. Shaver was not supposed to be at the residence. Morning arrives. Mr. Shaver arrives on the scene. Begins battering Lori Shaver. He wants her back.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And again, generally, we're not going into great detail what was found.
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Dr. Simmons again reported an anomaly on the screen.
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So what was decided to be done in this area regarding that anomaly?
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At this point, we decided it would be beneficial to do an excavation at this site as well.
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Showing you photograph 14 of states 15. Can you describe to the jury how it was that you went about excavating this, the initial stages?
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First, we had to document everything as it was, and then we had to remove the concrete so that we could start doing the excavation process.
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And what was done with the pieces of concrete that were broken up?
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They were set aside.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing you photo 15 of States 15. What does this show?
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She was chattel chattel, just like a car or a piece of fire. And she informs him, I'm not going. We're not doing that. We're not doing that. And she starts giving the dead he's been in. I heard this. Isabel, Isabel Shade. The state didn't know about Isabel. We advised the state about Isabel. Only be turned away. Only be turned away from their office. Because they formulated a plan.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It just shows that they're continuing to remove the concrete.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And photograph 16, what do we see here?
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It's the continuation. That's it. Freaking removed and then it cleaned out.
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Vote of Ref 17. What does this show?
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At this point, we're removing the papers that are around the actual fire pit and then going through the fire pit itself.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was the fire pit basically demolished in this process? Yes. Okay. Can you describe for the jury the process that you go through when you're performing an excavation like this regarding digging and the sifting process?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They formulated a design. This is how it happened, but we don't want to hear another story. So when we sit in line. But Isabel, I'll tell you what happens. Isabel has her own attorney appointed by Fowler Johnson. We did not want any appearance, any discussions with Isabel. That were unguided, inappropriate, but would look inappropriate. So Ms. Johnson came on to represent. So Ms.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So once we, like I said before, we have the layers of dirt that we pull out. Once we pull the dirt out, they go into these buckets, and then they get taken to sifting stations, and we take turns sifting through, and it's a fine mesh material, so the smaller items are not able to fall through, and in case we don't see them in the dirt, we're able to find them in the sifting tray.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is this a process that takes a half hour or so, or can it take a long time, sometimes days?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It sometimes can go up to days, depending on what we're doing.
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Johnson has advised her of the dangers of taking the stand. What could happen to her if she were to take the stand? But Isabel says she's going to tell the truth, not going to tell you what happened. And as she relays, she's at the residence with her father. And then walks by, carrying on. He starts to battle his wife. And Isabel fears filling up. She hears a lot of commotion.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Photograph 18, what do we see here?
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This is where the 80, a good portion of the dirt has been removed.
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Photograph 19 of states 15, what does this show?
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It shows a bone, or a hospital bone sticking out of this.
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Can you point the photograph where that is?
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It'll be right here towards the center.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Photograph 20 of States 15. What do we see here?
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That is the phone that was removed from the dirt.
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So I separated them, removed the weapon from the area, consoled her and tried to calm her down while he got the rest of his stuff, and then we left.
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What was done eventually with this phone?
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This phone and anything else that we found phone related was then transported with the medical examiner's office back to the medical examiner.
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She hears someone attacking. Leave me alone, leave me alone. She walks in the room to testify. Poor old Michael is sitting in a chair with his foot on Lori Shaver's head as Lori's gassed. And Michael is sitting there threatening to kill her. And this young girl, in desperation and in fear, runs and betrays a firearm. That she believes she shot, why, she thinks she did. She says she found she had.
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Photograph 21 of space 15. What does this show?
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And this shows approximately the depth at which we found that bone.
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And about how deep was that bone located?
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About 20 inches.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Once you found that humorous bone, about what time was it in the day?
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It would be about 1705 or 505 p.m.
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Now, considering it was probably going to be getting dark relatively soon and you still had more work to do, what decision was made about continuing or stopping it?
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At that point, we decided that it would be more beneficial to hold the scene for the evening and then return the following morning.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Robert Mercado also worked with Michael Shaver at Epcot, but they didn't work at the same ride. They worked at different rides, so they didn't see each other on a regular basis. Saw each other occasionally, but not all the time. Mr. Mercado will explain to you that there were plans for a work-type Thanksgiving get-together to happen at the Shaver residence.
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What do you mean by hold the scene?
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She believes she had. But almost simultaneously, in walks Jay. He sees what's going on. Lori is still on for it. Lori has not even got to her deal. And Jay walks in, picks her gun from this about. Shoots Michael Schaefer in the head. Says, Ori, get these kids out of here. I'll take care of this. Anybody says a thing about this, I'll kill you too. Ori said, we were like deer in headlights.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
To secure it, cover it with tarps, and make sure that nothing else can get in, and then have deputies that close it on scene overnight to ensure that nobody has access to the area.
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So when was the next time you came back to the scene?
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The following morning at around 7 a.m.
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Did investigators from the medical examiner's office also come to assess?
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Is that common for medical examiner's investigators to come to the scene and be involved in this process?
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You mentioned it was an investigator. The actual medical examiner, the doctor from the office, he wasn't there. Was the medical examiner investigators? Correct. That morning were additional photographs taken at the scene? Yes. Showing you photograph 22 of States 15. What do we see here?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Got into the car. I took the kids to a school. Ismael said, this was so routine, the violence in this household. I was just not, but we didn't shoot. And mom, as a stake would want you to believe, is so infatuated with Jay, broke it off right there. We don't want to see you. Now, Lori assumes Jay has done something with the body. Beyond her knowledge, it's whereabouts, right? It's just not.
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This is how we left the scene before we left. We secured the tarp over the opening and then placed canopies over.
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So that canopy there was placed by law enforcement?
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And we see several different blue tarps. Are those law enforcement's blue tarps?
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And why are there some of those blue tarps that have dirt on them?
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So when you're referring to some violence that you've observed between them, you never saw Michael Shaver touch or strike Ms. Shaver in any way?
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Those tarps were set up for the sifting station, so once it's sifted, it stays on that tarp.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Michael's been the biggest nightmare in her life, but all she could do is bury her thoughts. That's it. Yes, the police come knocking, the police come inquiring, the police come looking around, the police get a warrant, and yes, the body of Michael is shaping us down. Unbeknownst to Lori, Mr. Townsend had put me on that ground being prepared
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you and your team continue this digging and sifting, the excavation process?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What does this show? Photograph 23 of stage 15.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Right here towards the center, it shows the edge of a blue tarp.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This is not a blue tarp, the law enforcement brought it, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you come across... Things like this, like a blue tarp. How do you make sure you don't damage the tarp or the item in the whole digging process? Are you using big old shovels or what are you doing?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
originally for the duck park now the state keeps using words like common sense just rely on common sense because they don't have really any evidence no real evidence to glory shaver kill her sure you are not going to hear any technician don't fdla person say you know we found maury shaver's friends ain't on that park We found Lori Shaver's DNA on that turret.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Initially, we are using larger shovels. Once we come across any items that are deemed to be of evidentiary value, we then switch to smaller hand tools and brushes so that nothing else does get destroyed or damaged.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing you photograph 24 of Stakes 15. What do we see here?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Again, here in the center, it's more of the tarp that's been exposed.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And where are all those buckets around?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Those are for the dirt that's being removed as we're taking it out.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And those buckets then go to the sifting stations? Yes. Photograph 25 of Stakes 15. What does this show?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We found, we didn't find any whereabouts or knowledge or connection between that turret, that gun, that socket wrench, hand wrench, with Lori Shaver. Nothing. What we spoke about more in our life about this. So there's no connective link between Lori and the death. of having this attorney.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Right here, we have the tarp, and then we found another vault.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Photograph 26 of States 15. What do we see there?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah, it's a close-up of the previous photo.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, he would never.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what was done with this photo?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was also eventually transported with the rest of the remains.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Photograph 27 of States 15. What else was found? What do we see in this photograph?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The only thing that you saw was Mr. Shaver brandishing a weapon and making threats.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And regrettably, Isabel was placed in the posture, you know, event you come up here and tell y'all what happened. Nobody wanted to talk to Isabel. Nobody wanted to look at what truly happened in this case. So here we are. The state's case, as we say it, is really a case of conjecture. It's a case of emotion, something we're supposed to fight for.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
These are smaller bones, presumed to be probably hand, from the hand bones. And they were placed in this Tupperware container, so they did not get displaced.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm assuming law enforcement brought this Tupperware and used it?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, just to store the items? Yes. Photograph 28 of Sates 15. What do we see here?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So Mr. Mercado sent some text message to Michael Shaver several weeks before this get-together was supposed to happen to see, hey, are there plans still to go? Are we still doing this thing? He got no response. Mr. Mercado texted Michael Shaver several times, two or three times.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Right here, we have another couple of bones that have been exposed.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And these photographs are just kind of showing the progression of the excavation process? Yes. All right. Photograph 29 of stage 15. What else was located next to that blue tarp or underneath that blue tarp?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Something to try to pull at your heart if you're sorry for Michael Sheen. So what do they think we're going to do? We're going to get some digital data and say it came from Michael Sheen? That digital data came from Rory Shaver? You ask yourself this, how does this digital data prove that Lori Shaver killed Michael Shaver? It doesn't.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In the area of the blue tarp, you see this green strap. It's similar to that of like a ratchet strap.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you locate any part of like an elastic sheet with that strap or near the strap?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can you explain what you found?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So the elastic that we found is consistent with what would be from like a fitted sheet from a bed. And then that, all that was remaining was the elastic band.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At Walt Disney World.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, the state and their bravery has not even listed in their information that she needed an assistant in covering up the crime. Why? Because they do with Susan. And they didn't want to have to deal with that. So Davidson should. They don't want to look at everything, but they should have looked at it. You see? The state was going on about this digital data.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm showing you if an ornament got induced into evidence and states that there are three. I'm not going to ask you to pull it out because we have pictures. Let's take a look inside and see what's inside. You want some gloves? There's some right over there.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nothing further.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Up in there.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Up in there we have the strap and the container.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mr. Wiggins, 911 call.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Photograph 30 of States 15. What does this show?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This is more of the bones that were exposed and with the brownish strap and the blue tarp.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Richard Conner will be called by the defense. He's a digital data guy. One of our jurors. and he'll talk about the exploration of IP registrations, that they expire in time and then at a certain point they don't link an IP address to a device, to an individual, or a location. But the Stang thinks we could pull this out of the ether of space, out of nowhere, and say, well here's some digital data
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Photograph 31 of States 15. What do we see here?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That has most of the tarp exposed, and then it shows the green strap that's kind of tied around the tarp.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's 32 of stage 15.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This is a close-up of more of the strap, the tarp, and then you can start to see more bones that are exposed.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not that I'm aware of at that time, no. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So was the blue tarp both on top of and beneath the bones and the strap? Yes. So is it consistent with the bones and the strap being wrapped in the blue tarp?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Throw it at you. And then we're going to assume, and you assume, on top of that, Lori Shamer killed Michael Shamer when there's no connective link. It's a big step to make an allegation like this. It's a huge step. It's a huge step for you to try to lead to the conclusion they want to say it's going to put before you that Lori Shamer killed Michael Shamer.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Photograph 33, what does this show?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This shows the tarp being removed from the site.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was that tarp collected as evidence?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm showing you state's exhibit one in evidence already. And in the packaging I just showed you, is the blue tarp in different sections?
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you see anything happen to Mr. Shaver? Not that night. Okay. Mr. Shaver was acting aggressive on that night, correct? They both were. They both were, okay. And Mr. Shaver's the one that left the residence, correct? Yes, I took him with me, yes. Out of his necessity because of his act of violence, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, we'll get to explain why that in a few minutes. Photograph 34 states 15. What do we see here?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And were you guys going through the apprenticeship at the same time?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Instead, what Isabel says is what happened. There's nobody to refute Isabel Shea. Now, we didn't contrive this witness. We went to the city early on and said, let's level it. Think they're going to go after Jeremy. Look at what the cause was. But now they fixed the position, formulated a plan,
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Photograph 35, is the tarp fully removed?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. And was the rest of the skeleton eventually located? Yes. And what do we see here in photo 36 of States 15?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That is part of the rest of the remains that were found along with the range strap.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Photograph 37, what does this show?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This is when we're actually removing the rest of the remains from the site.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The white sheet, is that a sheet provided by law enforcement or was that in the grave?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
despite the powers and the responsibilities they have, they're not seeking justice, they're seeking a fine. And the two are two opposite goals. They're not seeking justice, they're seeking a fine. We'll keep that in mind. Now, Lori is likewise charged with this crime of accessory.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That is provided by the Medical Examiner's Office, and that, when you put it underneath very carefully, and we're able to look down the refrigerator.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was a skull found? Yes. Showing you photograph 38 of States 15. What do we see here?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Eventually, Michael Shaver's phone responded to Robert Mercado and said, leave me alone, I'm working on my marriage and my family. Robert Mercado did not actually speak with Michael Shaver at that time. That communication was done by text-to-phone link. Again, the evidence would show Michael Shaver's design was dead. Most importantly, Robert Mercado will explain to you that in no time,
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This is the top four shows.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Were photos taken to show the depth of where the bones were located?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The state has no information, no data, no communications that anybody was given any particular assistance after this events. The most the state can do, the very most the state can do is try to say, well, she lied this day, or maybe she lied that day, or maybe she lied that day. Okay? Lori Shaver is not here on trial for lying or making a misrepresentation. That's not evidence of a burden.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what does photograph 39 show?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This is showing that the bones were located about 36 inches.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
About three feet down?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Photograph 40 states 15. Was any clothing located on a part of the human remains?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was found?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Remains had a pair of boxers and then a pair of underwear, shorts, and also a pair of socks.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Were those clothing items actually, were the bones contained inside of those clothing items as if they were being worn at the time?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And were those items also collected? So you'll introduce the evidence in states four and five. Do you recognize the contents of these items?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's evidence to evoke a motion to try to anger them into a judgment about justice. But she never thinks. Now, the state carries the burden of proof, as we've discussed all the way through the case. Orin Shaver is not required because she may. But you will hear from Mr. Compton. You will hear from Ms. Powell. You will hear that. Okay? And you will hear Jeremy Townsend.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That will be the sports with the boxers and then also the socks.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
During the excavation process, were any... fibers that look like hair collected as well.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what would have, what would happen with those items during the collection process?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Those items we collected and submitted as evidence.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
During the sifting process, were any additional items located, such as, you know, smaller bones, nails, things like that?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was found?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm sure we found a couple of the smaller bones, and then we also found pieces of fingernail and some more hair-like fibers.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Well, that's just Jeremy Townsend. Well, guys are going to watch it. You will not watch it. But Jeremy Townsend has spoken with the state. He's dealt with the state. This man's not going to get up on the stand. He's both himself. Okay? So we could probably inform Mr. Gasson that something negotiated has to be done with the state.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You mentioned that the human remains collectively were transported to the medical examiner's office?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is that customary?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And who would have done that transport?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They have a transport unit with the medical examiner's office that does that process.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Once the human remains were removed from that hole, did you and your team members continue to dig further beneath?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Objection, Your Honor. Maybe a motion?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You will see no witness confirmation that Warren Shaver killed Michael Shaver. At the end of the case, the state is going to play out that motion. and say, was this maybe a statement, or that a statement, or this direction here, or this direction there. It's made to the conclusion, she killed my children. That's not what cases are about. They're about real evidence.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We continue to dig just to make sure that nothing is located below where the remains were found. And then once we reach a hard-to-combact area, we know that we've reached the bottom portion of that site.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was anything of significance found below where the bones were located?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Before the fire pit was dismantled by the heavy equipment, was that examined?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing you photograph 41 of states 15. Was a piece of laminate flooring located within that fire pit?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We ask that you listen to the evidence, the real evidence, those that you can draw logical conclusions from. I'll speculate in imaginary conclusions that those are as if somebody murdered another person. And when we listen to them, we believe that more than one reasonable doubt exists. Multiple reasonable doubts by lack of evidence, the conflict in evidence, and the fact.
Crimeatorium
Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was that item collected? Showing you also already introducing the evidence to state six. Recognize that I can decide that, right? Yes. What is it?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was for the betterment of both of them that he left. He left by law, correct? Correct. Not that night, no.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's the state of laminate flooring.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Switching gears a little bit. Showing you photograph 42 of states 15. What part of the residence do we see here?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This is the back door of the residence with the attached porch.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And without a good feeling, we will not be standing. We'll waver and vacillate. And based on that direction, because the judge killed them, on the defendant's liability in this case. Mr. Farrakhan, please introduce yourself to the jury.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Photograph 43 of Sates 15. What is this?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sliding glass door on the backside of the house.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you examine the sliding glass door that we see here in the photograph?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We just wanted to rule out that there were any bodily fluids that may have been present at some time.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Hello, my name is Frank Farrakhan. I'm the vice chair of the jury. And can you go off and spell your last name, please? M-V-R-R-I-T-T. How long did you know my bishop? About a year. When you're talking about a year for a year, that then became a year from his disappearance in November 2015. Yes, I was in November 2014 through 2015.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you use any other... type of device to help you look for the presence of bodily fluids.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What'd you do?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At this point, it was a little later in the evening when it was darker, but we used a chemical called Blue Star, and it is a preliminary test to see if there's the presence of blood, and it reacts with the hemoglobin and the iron in the blood.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you ever go over to his house that he shared with the point of Lori Shainer to visit or socialize? Yes, I did. And would you socialize with them at other locations as well? Yes, we did. How long did you know Lori Shainer?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when you use that Blue Star, is it a spray or a liquid, or what is it?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They come as tablets. We have to mix them into water, and once they're dissolved, we can spray it using a regular spray bottle.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not that night? It was a different night? It was the previous night. I see. Okay. And you came to retrieve his belongings with him, correct? Yes. And he was acting violent at that time? No, he was not. Okay. You just stated you got in between the two of them? Yes. Because they were acting violent, correct? While he was trying to retrieve his stuff, yes. Okay. Thank you.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Probably half that time.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And do you recognize her? Do you see her on the booklet there? Yes. Now, where did you first meet up with Mr. Shainer?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when you sprayed the area of the track, the sliding glass door, what happened?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There was a reaction. The reaction that it has is a luminescence, so it turns blue if there is any kind of reaction.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In the world.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And where was that?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We went for a lot of Disneyland.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What kind of work do you, back then, did you do for Disney? And what kind of work did Michael Schafer do for Disney? Are you aware he went through apprenticeship in order to get this job with Disney? And because of the fact he went through their apprenticeship program, did Disney furnish him with tools that he would need?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, does that mean if it turns blue and luminescent, does that mean there's definitely blood there?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Other things can react. Again, since it reacts with iron, if there's any iron in the material that we spray, that could also react or some cleaning materials also can react.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So what did you do as far as documenting that area and collecting evidence from that area of the sliding glass door?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Once that apprenticeship was completed, were those tools still the property of Disney, or was he basically given those tools by Disney?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
During the weekend or around the weekend of November 7th of 2015, did he go over to the Shaver residence? At no time did he load Michael Shaver up and said, that should be. And at no time did he take Michael Shaver to Georgia. Directly contradicting the statements that the defendant was making to various people about where Michael Shaver went.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The area was photographed and swapped for ultimately collected from the area.
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Can you explain to the jury how you would go about collecting a sample using a swab from an area like that?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They were his once he completed them.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, were you aware of marital issues between Michael Shaver and Laurie Shaver over the course of the time you've been there?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When we swab something, we have to use sterile water. We put one drop of sterile water just to hydrate the sterile cotton swab. And then once that takes place, we can kind of go back and forth several times over the area to make sure we get one large enough sample.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did there come a time where he was living at a Warburg's tenor? Yes. And when was that in relation to when you first met him?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Probably through the middle of the summer of 2015.
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Did you perform that process and collect swabs from both the inside and outside tracks of that sliding glass door?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And during that time that he was separated, was there a period of time where you knew Michael was dating someone else?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Show me what's been marked as evidence to say it's a J and say it's a K. Did those tell you if you recognize those packages?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Who was that? You remember her last name? Now, at some point, did that relationship end and Michael went back for a little bit at the hole with his wife to try to wreck his views? Why would he always go back to that situation?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Are they sealed now?
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Okay. They could, there's some scissors right there by the lake of sand. If you could open those up, look inside, tell me if you recognize the contents.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I don't think he wanted to make their first games.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, after the time frame that he returns to live at the Merrill home, were there times that you went over to stay in the shape of residence or in a house then?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You recognize both?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What's inside there?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Both of these are swabs. This one is from the interior of the lower door frame, and then this one is the swabs from the exterior lower door frame.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sort of. I didn't stay there. I went to Mr. Merrill's house.
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Are they the same or substantially the same condition as when you collected them from those locations?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And what time frame was that for him?
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This time you're on a statement of J and evidence at 16. Any objection? No objection. Were these two exhibits sent to the Foreign Department law enforcement for DNA analysis? Yes. As a crime scene investigator, do you have any involvement whatsoever in the actual DNA analysis? No. Showing you photograph 42 of States 15 again. Did you also examine an area beneath the deck?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Oh, it was in the morning room.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, but one for me talking about how close it was to his disappearance.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
One time in October and another time on vacation.
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Where were Michael and Lori Shaver when you would go over to check on their house?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We ended up at the same location. He was a year ahead of me.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
One time they were in Reno, one time they were up in North America somewhere.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now I want to take you back to November 15th, specifically November 7th of 2015, which was a Saturday. Were you and Mike working together that day?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Generally, where did you look?
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So it would be kind of right behind where the stairs are, but underneath where the door is. Okay.
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Did you see him at that?
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Photograph 44 of States 15, what do we see here?
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And where did you see him?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This is the underside of the porch and this is the area.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Photograph 45 of States 15, what does this show?
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That is a close-up of the area of the siding and the porch underneath where the slide glass doors are.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when you say your families, who from the Shapers was there? What about Torben?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, let's show you another close-up. Photograph 46 of States 15, what does this show?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was your wife saying at that time?
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This just shows some unknown stains that were kind of exposed underneath.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, At the point that you were going over there, was this in the time frame that Mike was looking back at his home?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you said there are no saints. At this point, you didn't know what it was, right? Did you use anything like the Blue Star process you described earlier in this? And what happened when you did that?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And how long were you all at this event together?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Probably 10 o'clock in the morning until about 1 o'clock in the evening.
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Again, there was a small reaction. So that area was eventually swabbed and again, turned in as evidence.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did Mike and Lori, with their children, leave before we're founding it? Yes. And it is that 1 o'clock approximately when they left? Yes, sir. Was this the last time you actually saw or spoke with Michael Shaker?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Again, just because it reacted doesn't necessarily mean it's blood, right?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But out of an abundance of caution, did you collect the swab?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The following day, November 8th, did you try to contact him?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you use the same process you just described?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing what's the markings, evidence, and states. I for identification. Do you recognize that item?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And why were you trying to contact him?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He was working on something like guns, and he had some problems to work with, and so I asked if I had gotten the correct items.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And how do you recognize it?
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This has the case number, my initials, and the date and the description of the item.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And this item that you got, what was it?
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It was a gun balloon kit.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is it also sealed? Yes. Then you open it up and look inside and tell me if you recognize the contents.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did he specifically tell you to get that particular type of balloon kit?
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What's inside?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, that's why I was touching to ask him if I had gotten what he wanted.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That would be the swabs from the underside of the note.
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Are they in the same institution, the same condition as when you collected them that day?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did he ever respond?
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My name is Brian Douglas Shaver. I was the brother of Michael Douglas Shaver.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was that unusual that you would reach out to him and that he wouldn't respond?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It's time to stand by and evidence of Saints 18. Objection. And was this item as well sent to the Foreign Department Law Enforcement for further DNA analysis?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now the following day, Monday, November 9, 2015, did you try to contact him?
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Yes, it was.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And how did you try to contact him that day?
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Again, you had no involvement in that process? No. We direct your attention to January 17th of 2019. Did you and crime scene investigator Jessica Beard, now Jessica Holcomb, go to the Lake County Sheriff's Office evidence location, I guess, for lack of a better word, and process an item collected in this case?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Through text.
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And did you receive a response?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was that response, were you still asking about his
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How he was doing with the gun, or what was the, what were you... No, his only response to me was he needed to quit his job to save his marriage.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. But you and Mike worked the same shifts? Yes. What was the next day that Michael Shaver was scheduled to work?
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June 8th, June 9th.
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What did you process?
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All right, would that be November 10th?
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You'll hear from Corey Letso, another friend and co-worker of Mr. Shaver. They also worked together on Spaceship Earth, and he was also supposed to go to this worked Thanksgiving get-together at the Shaver residence. Mr. Letso will tell you that after the weekend of November 7, 2015, he never saw or personally spoke to Michael Shaver. You'll hear from Michael Shaver's family.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We processed the tarp.
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Which tarp?
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The tarp that was removed from the excavation site.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. What was the shift that you both worked?
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And what was your purpose? What were you looking for in processing the tarp?
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11 at 9, but except there he didn't work.
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We were looking for any kind of potential damage to the tarp and or bodily fluids of any kind.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is that referred to as the third shift? Yes. Did Michael Schaefer appear at work that day?
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And are you his older brother or younger brother?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The next day that he was scheduled, was that the following day, November 11? Yes. Once again, third shift?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Where did you do this examination considering the tarp is pretty big?
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We had to use the vehicle processing bay at the sheriff's office.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did he come to work that day?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What did you do? I'm assuming you didn't just throw the tarp on the floor and start looking. What did you do to ensure that the tarp would maintain a clean area and things like that?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
November 12, were you both scheduled to work?
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I'm the oldest.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did he come in on November 12? Some point during this time where Michael is not coming from work and his manager, John Borglum, pranks you to try to get some information from you. Yes. And what type of information was he trying to get?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We placed a brand new clean tarp that was larger than this particular tarp underneath so that we could then do what we needed to do to process it.
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How much older?
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He was looking for a phone number to make sure he had the correct number to call.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Joan, you photographed 47 estates 15. What do we see here?
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That is the tarp that was from the excavation site opened up and placed on top of the larger tarp.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After he did not come to work for those three days, did you take any other efforts to try to check in on Mr. Shaver and check on his whereabouts? Yes. What did you do?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What did you do to examine that tarp or process it?
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I'm actually 13 years older than Michael was.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We visually examined it, and then we also used an alternate light source on it.
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I went to the family home early morning after work.
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Explain what that is.
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The alternate light source has several different wavelengths of light that are used, and you can use different colored filters such as orange, red, or yellow to then enhance the fluorescence that may be given off if there are any fluids exposed.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And while you were there, did you see Mr. Shaver?
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Did you make contact with Laurie?
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Did you ask him about Michael? Yes. And what did she tell you?
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She said she lives in Georgia.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And why did she say that she thought he was an importer?
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She had sent his sister-in-law, Judge, from Jackson. Sent a signboard. Thank you.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what were the results of the analysis after you used that alternate light source?
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They were presumptively positive.
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Were you still living in the home when he was born?
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And where are you?
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Did you, at some point, you said earlier that the tarp was divided up and cut up into sections?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
North McConnell.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Another person that you all work with?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I didn't work with him. He worked with Mike through the apprenticeship.
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Why was that done?
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We separated it into quadrants, basically, so we could further analyze it and know which section we were working with.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Let me ask a better question. Did Roderick Mercado also work in Dissing? Yes. When Michael would go to work, did he drive his own vehicle?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you were examining the tarp, did you locate any defects or damage to it?
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And have you seen that vehicle? Yes. Was that vehicle present at the Schaefer residence while you were there? Yes. And did it have a flat tire? Yes. But was this the same vehicle that Vitae took to work the previous week? Yes. Now, while you were there, did Lori Shaver describe any sort of arguments that she had had with Michael before she claims you up? Yes. And what was that already about?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In how many different places did you find that there was a defect or some kind of damage?
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There were two locations that we noted.
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Showing you photograph 48 of States 15. What do we see here?
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In this one, in the upper left corner here, we have a little bit of a tear.
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Yes, I was.
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Was there a period of time where you grew up together?
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Is your job as a crime scene investigator just basically to document what you see and any kind of anomaly?
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Okay. Photograph 50 of States 15. What does this show?
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Yeah, it was about, uh, she had the, um, Kendall's phone number inside of his phone, and he had already erased it.
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This one shows that there's a small defect as well, right here towards the center of this image.
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Now, after this interaction at Michael's home, did you try to contact him? Yes. How did you try to contact him?
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Is that a different defect than the one we just looked at in the previous startup?
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Okay. Photograph 51, what does it show?
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That just shows a close-up of the defect that we found in the other spot.
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I tried to go through the textbooks.
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How long is that apprenticeship?
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I noticed there's a marker there that says interior. What does that mean, and how did you know that's the interior?
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Did you also try physically calling him? Yes. When you would call him, did anyone ever answer that number? And when you would text, were you getting any sort of response? Sometimes. During the time frame that the responses that you got in text, was the tone and the way those texts were sent to you that different than messages you had received from Mr. Schaefer in the past? Yes, sir.
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So this was labeled as the interior side because this is the side that was ultimately wrapped around the remains, so we're calling that the interior, and then the other side from the deadfall, the exterior.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, my parents got divorced when I was about 15 years old, so Michael was only a couple years old. We spent a lot of summers and Christmas breaks and stuff like that together, but not really under the same roof.
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In photograph 52 of states 15, what does this show?
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How so? I stole a word and it was in his joking self.
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That shows the exterior side, so the opposite side of the previous image.
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Now, between the time you last saw Michael Schaefer in November and mid-December of 2013, did you have any other contact before?
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Did you separate this area of the tarp from the rest of it?
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And what was the point? Why would you do that?
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We did that just so that it could be analyzed if it needed to be without sending the entire tarp.
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And did she tell you about various items of mites that she had sold? Yes. What items of mites had she sold at that point?
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I'm showing you states of the two already on evidence. Yes, that's the piece of tarp. That same day, did you also examine the piece of laminate flooring that we looked at earlier that was taken from the fire pit?
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She had sold his activities, his tools, his everything. Okay.
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And when you talk about his tools, were you talking about the tools at CISI or tools that he had at the home? Tools he had at home. And did she tell you how much she got for these items? Yes. And how much was that? And did you ask her if she was going to send any of that money to Mike? No. Did you ask her if she was sending any of the money? No.
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What did you do to examine it?
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We also did the alternate light source on it.
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And what did that show?
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That showed a possible result as well.
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Was that item also sent to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement to be further examined?
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Thank you. No other questions, Your Honor. All right. Thank you, Mr. Wiggs. Yes, ma'am. Please, the court.
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Yes, sir. You can stop now if you don't want. Please, ma'am. I'm looking at this. How's my address? Japanese or investigation?
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Did she mention any other property of Mike's that she was trying to sell?
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You'll hear from his father, Duth Shaver, his brother, Brian Shaver, Christine Hort, his sister, Desiree Snyder, his niece, Stacey Turner, his sister. And they'll explain to you that they had contact with Michael Shaver over the years to varying degrees and varying frequencies. But following November of 2015, none of those family members ever saw or personally spoke to Michael Shaver.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was that?
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She said that Michael had contacted her and wanted her to sell one of his rifles to somebody he knew.
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Investigation.
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Okay. Thank you. Okay. This was the green sign that you proposed, over to the correct?
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Were you familiar with his various firearms? So. How were you familiar with the firearms?
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Okay. Did you take any measurements from the residence to the gravesite?
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Him and I looked at them mostly when we had some conversation.
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I did not personally, but somebody did, yes.
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It's a four-year apprenticeship.
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Okay. Do you have any personal knowledge of the distance before you did?
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After she told you that these firearms were going to be for sale, did she ask you, do I need the firearms?
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Okay. You still put about number 5, you thought some initials in there, correct?
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She asked me to go into the house and make sure all the chambers were clear. And did you do that?
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What were those initials specifically?
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It's a T with the plus sign and a L, and then right above it is the shape of a heart.
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Like Travis, Thomas, Lori?
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So after the time frame that... Yes, I went with my father and he stayed with my mother. And during the holidays and summers after that, is that what you're talking about?
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Presumably.
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Okay. So somebody had invented their name in this concrete, correct?
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Were you interested in buying them?
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At some point.
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I wanted to buy them.
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Yes. In perpetuity, just fresh to the world, correct?
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Mr. Merritt, please get closer to the microphone. Electronic court reporting is having some difficulty picking you up, so please get as close as you can and speak up to the best of your ability. Yes, sir.
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Not before identification. I would imagine, yes.
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Not a secret. Somebody evident who was trying to keep, correct?
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Didn't appear so, no, sir.
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Okay. You've spoken about this area, I believe. You had run a ground-fenetrating device on there.
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Why were you interested in purchasing these firearms?
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I'm a firearm enthusiast, and I wanted to hold them in case Mike came back and wanted them. I could sell them back to him.
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Yes. Correct.
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And, you know, between that area and there was nothing. Correct.
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Were you planning on selling them back to him at the price that you paid?
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Yeah, he could just pay me back. It'd be fine. $2,000. Did she accept that? No.
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So that was a mess. Correct, you would say?
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It's just part of the process.
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Did she ever contact you about the guns again?
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Okay. The fact that the ground may have... an indenture in a dark spot or a lighter spot doesn't necessarily signal that guy or anybody that this is a binary, correct?
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When was this?
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Nearing Christmas, probably a week or two before Christmas that same year.
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Did she tell you anything about her efforts to dispose of those guns?
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Not necessarily, no. Okay.
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Yeah, she said she sold them for $4,300 and that she got to keep two.
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So if we heard testimony earlier that there was an indenture in the concrete, that wouldn't necessarily signal the world that there's a binary there. Would you agree?
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While this is going on, are you trying to reach out and get in touch with Michael Shaver about these firearms?
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Not necessarily.
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And did you receive any responses from the number previously associated with this?
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Okay. And then there's... topical of this site from a look at the film on the left in fact we see more than one dark area correct yes and under those dark areas there was just one body okay correct correct and would you agree with me the body was not located in the center of the patio itself sure but let's talk about A little bit about the distance, the depth of this screen.
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Eventually, yes.
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What response did you get from Mike about these firearms?
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He had told me that he thought I was trying to steal his guns.
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And did he reference anything about the price that Fenton Morgan had sold the guns for?
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Now, the tools that you had at Disney, whatever happened to those?
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I have them in my possession.
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And why do you hold on to that?
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Well, they're tools.
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I'm a tool junkie, so... Before Mr. Schaber's body was discovered, was there a purpose of you taking possession?
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You said that it was three feet.
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Yeah, if you ever come back and need his tools, he's a mechanic by trade.
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Once we were completed, yes.
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Okay. How tall are you?
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Now, had you ever socialized at the Shaver residence itself? Yes. When was the last time you were over at that residence, November of 2015, being the time that Mr. Shaver was in here?
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I'm about five foot.
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You're five foot. So if somebody was digging this area and standing in that site, okay, and it's three feet, where's three feet on your body? You're five feet?
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It had been Labor Day weekend that year.
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Yeah, so probably about here.
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At that point, was there any sort of fire pit in the backyard?
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Okay, for here. Okay. So the size of the individual would be relative to the ease at which that grade could be done. Would you agree?
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What was back there?
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A duck pond.
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When you talk about the duck pond, what was going on back there?
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That is correct.
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They had some pet ducks, and they were digging a pond so that they could concrete it and have the ducks a place to swim.
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Potentially.
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Would that make sense? Would it not?
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It could be. It depends on what they had available.
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Had the excavation and digging of that duck pond already started?
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Okay. Let's say I have a child. I iterate children, period, and I'm going to take a break. It would be easier for somebody to be tall to take a three foot, uh, edge than somebody that's five feet. Right. Logically. Now, the items that were located in the frame, we're looking at number 49. There were some straps, correct?
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And do you know Lori Shaker? Yes. And you met her through Michael?
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It was some done, yes. The outside perimeter was dug so you could see the outside shape, and that was about it.
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No further questions at this point?
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All right, thank you, Mr. Wiggs.
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Yes, please record.
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Sir, Maury, has your testimony told you that Mike went to his mom's house? No. What's it tell you?
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He went to his sister's house. Sister's house, and where was that?
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And there was a tarp, correct?
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She said it was somewhere in Georgia. Somewhere in Georgia. That's your... Explicit recall, correct? Okay. And you likewise had an explicit recall moment when you said it was probably sometime in the summer that he was living at the airport, correct? Correct. Okay. So you would agree with me. You're not really clear as to the detail about all the conversations and everything that took place.
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And there was, I think, a strap wrench?
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It's part of that strap. I think it was just one long piece.
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Okay, it was a fix to the strap itself?
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It's a final recall.
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Okay. Do you know, do you have any personal knowledge whether or not law enforcement, they took any efforts to... look for do any kind of financial on on anybody's account to see where that may be for just I'm not aware. Okay. I'd have to ask somebody else. Correct. Is that you down in the green stunt there? Yeah. Okay. That's the straps you're talking about, correct?
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Pretty clear. Pretty clear? Okay. When you say you got these writings, okay, Could you show us how you could clarify this one came from Lori Shaven, this one came from Michael, this one came from this location, this came from Michael. Do you know how you could do that?
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Yes, through Michael.
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Okay. You're looking around the shape of residence. Did you find these same or similar straps located anywhere else on the presidential side?
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About when did you first meet Lori?
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I can't do that. I just know it comes from his phone.
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Not to my knowledge, yeah.
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You're not capable of doing that, but you speak, you've spoken on your direct examination as if these things were represented to you. And in fact, you don't know who or where they came from, correct? Came from Michael's number. Michael's number. But you don't know who sent those, do you? No. Okay. Let's be clear on that. Now, you said that you had this relationship with Michael.
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Okay. And you would have noted that or pointed that out otherwise, correct?
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And we see 35 inches, correct?
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It's right at 36th Street.
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That was after they got married. They had moved to Florida. They had moved to Florida on two different occasions. It was the first time that I had actually met her.
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36th Street. Yes. Okay. And you spoke about collection of some DNA, correct? Yes. Yes. And you don't know any results of the DNA analysis?
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They received some messages here and there, maybe by text or some Facebook messages, but never actually had any contact with Michael Schaefer to actually hear his voice and to verify he was alive. The MS will show that was because Michael Schaefer at that time was dead. He was not the one sending Facebook messages and text messages. You'll hear from a man named Scott Amatuccio.
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How often would y'all get together off work? Every couple weeks. Every couple weeks? Okay. How often did you do that every couple weeks?
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Okay. You just submitted it in and went to another person, correct?
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Yes. Okay.
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Looking at there, we have the tarp, correct? Yes.
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Two or three times. Two or three times? Yeah, maybe once a week, maybe once every couple weeks.
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We're looking at that you recovered.
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And then you've made certain notations on this. It says drag, correct? What do you mean by the word drag?
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Two or three times?
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For how long?
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After I had finally met Lori, we started doing things as a family that way.
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Give me a date.
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So with this one, it looks more like it could be consistent with a drag mark across a rough surface.
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Through Michael Shaver, did you ever meet his wife, Maureen Shaver?
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I can't give you a date?
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You can't give me a date, okay? Now, between 11-7 in 2015 and 9-15 in 2016, how many times were you at the Shaver residence? A couple times that I went and seen Lori. Okay. That's the date of the information. You witnessed no homicide, did you? No. Okay. You don't know specifically who sent you certain information, do you? No. How well did you know the kids, the children in this relationship?
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Ms. Sopter, did you do any testing in this area that you marked as a drag to see if there's any... Uh, for asphalt, porthole, anything were to indicate if that part had been used to drive the body of the residents up to the gravesite?
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Yes, sir. Okay.
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That would have been beneficial, right?
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I don't know what was done, processing-wise, if it went to the state lab or not.
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Prior to his death, how often would you talk or speak?
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Not very well. Okay. Do you know of any health issues of any of the children? No. Okay. Okay. You spoke about, you went to some truck show? Tractor show. Tractor show? Yes, sir. Okay.
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Okay. And there was a hole here. Yes.
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It's this going and then the back side of this thing. Okay.
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So that's where the marks, et cetera, correct? Okay. Thank you. You have a seat. Now, ma'am, in your processing of this site, there was no evidence that was gathered by you or anybody else indicating there was any DNA in this site associated with the washing.
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And how long were you there? I was there from around 10 o'clock in the morning to 1 o'clock in the afternoon.
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Was that a productive relationship? Did it go south, so to speak? What?
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I'm not sure that any DNA was recovered, and if so, I'm not aware.
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I can only tell you what he told me, but yeah, eventually it ended.
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Okay. You didn't personally recover any that you recall, correct?
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It ended, right. Did it ever occur to you some of those emails may have been from Kendall or somebody else? No. Okay, that never occurred to you? No. Okay. You don't know who murdered Michael Shaver, do you?
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Do you know anybody else in the other investigator that processed the scene with you that recovered any DNA?
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They actually came to my house in Georgia two or three. Fourth of July, we'd have a cookout and kind of a family get together. And then we'd talk occasionally through telephone call or text.
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I believe I did most of the DNA swabs for this case.
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Was there any hair sound in that site?
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But you've taken the stand, and you said that Lori Shaver sold some guns, right? Yes. Did you have that on you?
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In the site, yes.
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Okay. That wasn't mentioned on your correct examination. There were hair sounds, correct?
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Do you know if any of the DNA in those hairs were lapable from Lori Shamer or anybody?
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I'm not aware.
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Did law enforcement do anything with regards, aside from the tire, to the strap wrench?
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I don't know. Does it prove anything? No. Very well. Now, would Mike sometimes drive to work Lori's white truck? Yes. Okay. So we're talking about a truck at the residence that was observed, correct? Yes. But you know Michael was driving Lori's white truck as well, correct? Yes. And any tools that were sold? Do you have any idea how that may be tied to the death of Michael Jaden? No.
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Not that I'm aware of.
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Okay. Do you know if they did any investigation, a forensic audit, to look at anybody's accounts to see if anybody had purchased, say, any strap wrenches or straps from a vehicle above?
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I'm not aware, no.
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You spoke about laminate, a piece of laminate that was found in the gravesite, correct?
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Do you know if that laminate was laked in any way to the shame of residence?
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You know how floor they had in the shame of residence?
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Previously, no, sir.
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Okay, floor it any time.
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Do you have any knowledge whether or not... Laura, you needed any money when she phoned us?
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At the current time, it was tile and then wood laminate in the bedroom.
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Was it the same type of laminate?
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Then we'll thank Sasswood and I, then got them ready to be sold for monetary reasons. Sure. Thank you, sir.
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I have no further job. Thank you. Redirect.
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I think I asked you this earlier, but if not, I just wanted to make sure. You also processed the heart from the first finger, right? Yes. Did you find any? No. When you and other officers arrived on the scene the first day of the excavation, was Lori Shaver there?
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Can you direct? Yes, sir. No e-mails. No e-mails. When you went over there and saw Michael Shaver's vehicle at his residence, when you went and checked on him on November 12th, was Lori Shaver's truck also there? Yes.
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I'm assuming she wasn't permitted to walk around the house or walk around the property while you guys were doing your processing, right?
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Thank you. All right. And may the witness be excused from his subpoena?
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Where was she living?
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I was told that she was in front of the property sitting in her vehicle.
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All right. Thank you, sir. You're excused from further testimony. Have a good day. I think this would be an appropriate time to break for the day. It's 5.01 p.m.
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You remember seeing in one of the aerial photographs? Yes. From her vantage point in that truck, was she able to see the fire pit in the concrete slab?
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In 2015, were you living in Georgia then? Yes, I was. And would July of 2015 be the last time that they came to visit you for one of those Fourth of Julys?
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I believe so, yes.
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He was a close friend of both the defendants and Michael Schaefer's, because they all grew up together. He'll tell you very similar information about not seeing or directly speaking with Michael Shaver after November of 2015. For a several year period of time between November of 2015 into 2018, Mr. Amatuchio eventually realized, I haven't heard from Mike recently.
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Did she remain on scene for part of the time that you began to process the scene the first day you were there?
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At some point, did she leave the area? Yes, she did. Because she was permitted to leave, right?
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Do you remember about what time she left?
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It would be probably around 3 o'clock in the afternoon, 2.30, 3 o'clock in the afternoon.
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At what point in your processing were you focused when she left?
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That's about the time that we moved from the back pasture area up towards where the fire pit was.
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Thank you. Just briefly, Joe. Ma'am, you said you saw Lori sitting in her truck, correct?
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Do you know what time her kids got out of school?
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I'm unaware. Okay.
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It would make sense that she's there and the kids come back from school. She may need to travel outside, correct? Correct. Okay. She never fled the scene trying to evade law enforcement at any time, correct? No.
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Anything further? No, Your Honor. Can you please introduce yourself to the jury?
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My name is Dr. Kyle Shaw. Where do you work? I currently work as a forensic pathologist in the upstate area of South Carolina, working for several coroner counties in that area.
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What do you do for the coroner county? What do you do on a regular basis?
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No, it should have been. It was probably around 2012, 2011 or 12. I'm not sure exactly the year.
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So I'm a forensic pathologist. My role with the coroner offices is to review cases that are presented to me and provide my opinion of cause and manner of death. In the coroner setting, primarily that involves performing autopsies as part of that process.
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Where did you work before you moved?
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at the District 5 Medical Examiner's Office in Leesburg.
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What did you do for the District 5 and his office?
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I was an associate medical examiner, again, working as a forensic pathologist with a similar role, except that I was more directly involved in some of the investigative process and supervising investigators for the office.
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We got your attention on March 10th of 2018. Did you perform an autopsy on skeletonized remains recovered in the case of State of Florida v. Lori Shaper? Yes. How did those remains get from the scene to your office?
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They were transported by one of our forensic investigators from the scene. She was present during the excavation process, and she brought those to the office.
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You personally were not present. You're a medical examiner investigating the place.
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Correct. Okay.
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Where is the medical examiner's office located here in the 5th Circuit? It's in Leesburg, so it's on 809 Pine Street in Leesburg. Is a case number, a medical examiner case number, assigned to each and every autopsy you perform?
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During the sign frame after that 2012 visit up until the sign frame where Mr. Schaefer disappeared, how would you communicate with him?
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Is that number unique to the individual autopsy? Yes.
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What was the autopsy number associated with this case? 2018-0428.
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Is it customary, and it didn't happen in this case, that law enforcement was present during the autopsy? Yes. Okay. Were photographs taken during the course of your autopsy? Yes. Showing you it's been marked as space exhibit S. For identification, see if you can take a look at these images. Only be recognized on them.
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Yes. It's photographs as well as an x-ray. Images that were taken at the medical examiner's office during the course of this examination. Not all on the initial day of autopsy. Some are later.
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And did you ever go over to their house to visit or socialize?
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Do those sterling actively depict the skeletonized remains as well as some of the evidence that was packaged and things like that? Yes. This is how I'm able to move it. S as in Sam and evidence as 19, Your Honor. Any objection? No. No objection. How were the remains packaged when they arrived in your office?
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They originally arrived in a body transport bag as well as some additional bags basically to help contain the smaller bones.
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One of those bags obviously sealed with evidence tape and things like that? Yes. What was the first thing you did when you received the skeletonized remains?
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We start taking photographs. So photographs usually precede the examination. And then, of course, additional photographs are often taken during the course of examination. As also part of that process, at least in certain kinds of cases, x-rays will be performed.
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In this case, did you lay the various bones out in what would be the anatomical position of the human body?
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Yes. During the course of examination, those bones in a skeletal type of case, they get laid out. Showing you photograph one of stage 19.
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I know I had a couple phone calls with them, primarily text or Facebook message.
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What do we see here?
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This is part of the layout of the skeletal remains at the medical examiner's office. So just for orientation, towards the left of the image is the skull, which is on a foam support pad there. And then most of the bones basically going down to about the level of the pelvis. Photograph two, what does this show?
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I really haven't heard anything from him. started to get a little bit concerned. So Scott Amatuchio reached out to Michael Shaver's family, who knew him because, again, he grew up with Michael Shaver, and learned that nobody had directly spoken with him or seen him since November 2015. Scott Amatuchio also learned about a concrete slab that had been laid in the back of the Shaver residence.
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This is basically working our way down that same set of remains, just looking at a different area. So this goes a little bit lower and includes the pelvis and more of the lower extremities.
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And photograph three of stage 19, what do we see here?
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Here we see the rest of the lower extremities. So over on the far right of the image, we see a number of small bones, and those are the smaller bones of the ankles and feet.
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Were most of the bones that would normally be contained in the human body recovered? Yes. Were any bones missing?
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And was there a time frame where you just were not able to get in touch?
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There were a few small bones predominantly of the hands that were unable to be located, but very few.
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The fact that a couple bones in the hand may not have been provided to you would affect your ability to do an autopsy in this case? Not substantially, no. We've heard something about a humerus bone. Where is the humerus bone in the body?
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The humerus bone is part of the arm or the upper arm. Basically, it's from where I'm indicating on myself, from the shoulder to the elbow is the humerus bone.
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Did you examine the skull in this case? Yes. What did you do to examine the skull?
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So as part of that examination, again, x-rays are performed, images are taken, photographs are taken, and then during the course of that, some cleaning is usually performed. In a case like this, where the specimen or the bones may subsequently go for anthropologic examination, I usually do very little. other than, again, some general cleaning and general examination.
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When was that?
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Probably started in late 2014.
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Why would you do very little if they're going to go to be examined via anthropology lab?
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So sometimes these bones are very brittle and very delicate. And usually I find that once I'm able to document them, that the anthropologist is more of a specialist specifically in bones. So it's usually valuable for them to see those bones in as pristine a condition as possible. Some usually very delicate with what I do have.
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And was there a period of time where you started to worry about those wire files?
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You mentioned x-rays were taken. What is photographed for a CS19 show?
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So this is an x-ray of the skull. Now the lower part of the jaw is absent. It was disarticulated. It's just not in this x-ray. But what we can see is over towards the left and bottom, we see the teeth just for orientation. And then towards the right of the image, So that red dot was just on the teeth. Now, over on the right of the image, there's a bright white spot.
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That bright white spot is radiopaque material that corresponds to a projectile or bullet.
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Yes, when there was no contact. My mother had gotten sick, was in the hospital. We couldn't get a hold of him to let him know about her sickness.
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Tony, you photographed five of State's 19. What do we see here?
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So here we see an image of the back of the head or the back of the skull. This has been rotated around so that the top of the skull is down and the bottom of the skull is up. And right in the middle of that image, we can see a round hole, which represents a gunshot wound. In this case, a gunshot wound of entrance.
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Can you point in your own head generally where that gunshot wound was located?
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It's approximately here as I'm indicating on the back of my head.
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Did you locate a projectile inside of the skull?
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And explain how you did that.
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So the x-ray let me know that it was there. I was then able to carefully basically reach into the skull. We can't see it in this particular image, but the skull is basically sitting on the top of the spine. And the bottom part of the brain transitions into the spinal cord. And where the brain exits the skull and goes down into the spinal column, there's a hole.
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Yes, multiple times.
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And that's called the foreman magnum. And it's on the order of approximately an inch or a little bit bigger in size. So it's a decent sized natural hole in the skull. And I was able to reach in there, feel that bullet, which was loosely adherent, but not firmly adherent. It came loose very easily. And I was able to recover that and retrieve it out of the foreman magnum.
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Why would the projectile or the folate actually have a huge skull?
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How was the family reaching out to you? let them know about this while they're sick?
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So when soft tissue decomposes and begins to dry out, materials sometimes will stick to it. That soft tissue, as it decomposes, forms a little bit of a glue-like substance. So there were just a little bit of residual material. decomposed tissue that had dried around the edges of that bullet and caused it to basically be loosely stuck there.
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So it was not rattling around originally, which is why it was first noted on x-ray.
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Did you observe any kind of an exit wound or damage to the opposite side of the inside of the skull as if the bullet entered the skull and hit the opposite side?
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And he became concerned. Because of this concern, Scott Amatuchio reached out to the Lake County Sheriff's Office and asked that they go to the Shaver residence, somebody from law enforcement, go to that Shaver residence and try to make contact with Michael Shaver if he was there, find out what's going on with Michael Shaver. I don't know his name.
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So although there were some fractures of the skull, there was no impact site that I was able to identify, nor that the anthropology report anthropologists subsequently reported. There was no exit wound and there was no obvious impact site. Once you recovered a projectile out of the skull, what did you do with it? That was packaged up and turned over to law enforcement.
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We called, text, Facebook message, Facebook, you know, on the wall, whatever you want to call it, and tried to call, like say, and left voicemails, but there was ever no return.
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Showing you what's been marked as evidence of state security. The M is in man. Look inside. Tell me if you recognize the contents.
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So within this envelope is a bullet or projectile. It appears to be substantially the same as the projectile that I recovered in March of 2018.
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And I'm also showing you photographs of States 19. Is that a picture that you took of the projectile you removed? Yes. This time, the state would move states M as in married into events of states 20. You said, obviously, the projectile would have entered through the back of the skull.
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Can you, beyond the projectile traveling back to front, are you able to determine the path of travel with any other specificity?
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Not definitively. One thing to kind of keep in mind when we're doing these examinations is that a bullet, a typical bullet, has two main profiles. The bullet is a little bit elongated and tends to have a rounded tip, like a little bit of a cone or a rounded cone shape. So when that bullet is facing directly at you, the profile is round.
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When it is off center or tangential at an angle, so we have perpendicular and we have a little bit of an angle to perpendicular. As it rotates away from perpendicular, it takes on more of an oblong or ovoid shape. So when that bullet enters the skin or skull,
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When we have a round hole that tells us that the deviation is not dramatic from perpendicular, from a right angle, because if it is a fairly dramatic angle, then we have normally an oblong or irregular skull entrance. In this case, the skull entrance is rounded.
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In November of 2015, what kind of vehicle did you have?
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And what period of time was that?
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However, because of the absence of the brain, in other words, I can't see the path of the bullet through the brain because there's no brain left, I can't say that it was perfectly perpendicular when it entered, only that there's no clear evidence that it was at a sharp or distinctly sharp angle away from 90 degrees.
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I really don't recall on that. Probably close to six months.
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During your examination of the skull, did you locate any other evidence in the brain?
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Yes. So the X-ray also shows a few very small pieces or radiopaque fragments. Basically, fragments that show up the density of metal, which are typical. It's typical for a projectile to break off a little bit or small pieces. So there were additional pieces noted on X-ray.
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Did you do anything with those additional pieces that were noted?
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They appeared to be firmly embedded either in the bone or on the inside of the skull, so my options would have been to either try to open the skull to get at those, which would have deviated that skull from so-called pristine, or at least in the condition that I had it, and I wanted anthropology to look at that first.
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I also asked him to take a look at that concrete slab in the back where there was now a fire pit, same place that duck pond was supposed to be. So based on the information received by Scott Antuccio, Lake County Sheriff's Office became involved.
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What year are we talking about?
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Would it be common that if the anthropology lab noticed that, they would, when they were finished, remove those items and send them back to you? Yes. Did you locate any finger or toenails in the remains that were provided to you? Yes. Show me photograph 7 of States 19. What does this show?
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However, suspicions grew when family and friends reported him missing in 2018, leading investigators to uncover the truth. Laurie Shaver was charged with second-degree murder in connection with her husband's death. This episode presents a condensed version of her trial, edited for clarity and length. The opening statement from the prosecution begins at after 30 seconds of progress.
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I believe it was 2015, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
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That is a sampling of fingernails or toenails that were recovered from the body bag, from the materials that were provided.
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Photograph 8 of States 19. What does that show?
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Additional fingernails or toenails that were recovered.
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And did you package those fingernails and toenails up in the two bags we've seen in the picture?
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Joey, you want us to mark the states to the foe for identification? Can you open that up, look inside, tell me if you recognize the packages?
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Sure. So within our dry material that appears to be the same or substantially the same fingernail, toenails in one of them, As well as the second one.
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This time, state would move states O into evidence as 21, Your Honor. Any objection? No objection. Now, Doctor, in case I asked a bad question earlier, you mentioned that you found the projectile that you recovered as well as some projectile fragments that were embedded in his skull. Yes. You're not saying that those are from two separate projectiles, are you?
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When you respond to any of that?
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Correct. It's consistent with just being from a single projectile. The projectile that was recovered is partly deformed. And during the course of deformation, it is possible that a portion of that metal broke off during the course of entering the skull or impacting the skull.
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And have you seen or spoken to Michael?
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Is it common for when a projectile hits the heart of it, like a skull or two fragments? Yes. Okay. You've seen that a lot of times in your career. Many, many times, yes. You mentioned the anthropology lab a few minutes ago. Were these human remains that were brought to the medical examiner's office packaged up and sent to an anthropology lab? Yes.
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Well, I received some text messages or no, let me rephrase that. I received some Facebook messages from what I believe was Michael. But but, you know, at the time, we didn't know he was missing. And, you know, I assumed that it was him.
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And how were they packaged up and how were they sent?
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So originally they were packaged March 22nd of 2018. They were transported up by Investigator Griffiths. Later that day, still on March 22nd, the lab contacted us back and said that a femur was available to be returned to us.
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On February 16th of now, 2018, Deputy Corey Anderson from the Lake County Sheriff's Office went out to the property and made contact with the defendant, Lori Shaver. Deputy Anderson asked about Michael Shaver, asked about, where's your husband? The defendant said that she and Michael Shaver were separated, that he picked up and left, and that she had no idea where he was.
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into the femur in a second. Where was this lab located that the remains are transported to?
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The lab is associated with the University of Florida, so they're in Gainesville.
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You mentioned the term pound lab. What is that?
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So it often just gets called the, quote, Pound Lab, but it's the C.A. Pound Human Identification Laboratory. So it's sometimes also called Cap Hill, but it is a lab that is associated with the University of Florida.
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And they do their own analysis.
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You're not a part of that. That's correct. We provide them information that we have, the investigative information that we have, and we'll discuss the case. But they do their own analysis of the bones themselves.
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You said a few minutes ago that the pound lab people sent you back the femur.
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Yes. First of all, what's a femur? So a femur is the major bone of the thigh. So between the hip and the knee, that big bone is called a femur. And what was the purpose of you getting the femur back? So the plan at that time was to take that bone, release it to law enforcement, and law enforcement would then send it to a laboratory for DNA analysis, mainly for identification purposes. Excuse me.
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Is the femur a good source of DNA for some reason?
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It is a common source, and the longer that a skeleton has been out, the more bone sometimes is needed to do an analysis. Now, I don't perform those analyses, so I can't comment on exactly what they need, but it is common for them to ask for either a piece of bone or the entire bone.
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And again, they usually have better results if they're able to look at the entire bone and not have to go back and forth with us to get more bone later.
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3C18 is the Pound Lab case number for this case.
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Did you eventually get a report from the Pound Lab? Yes. Did it have that same case number on it? Yes. Did the report also mention the femur was returned to your office? Yes. Does all that documentation clearly indicate the femur returned to you was the same femur that you sent to them?
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Yes. Okay.
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Photograph 15 of States 19.
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What does this show? So this is that femur outside of the bag. The bag was open for us to take additional photos. Again, just documenting that it was in the same condition that it was when we had released it the previous, two days earlier, I believe.
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Anything about the messages that caught your sort of concern?
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Now, to your knowledge, was this femur sent to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement for analysis? That is my understanding, yes. Was it eventually returned back to your office, the medical examiner's office? Yes. Does that box look familiar? Yes, it does. You open it up, look inside, tell me if you recognize the contents.
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I had a gray Explorer.
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Yes, it appears to be, again, with four areas that have been cut into for the purposes of DNA.
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I'm Stacey. Stacey is in a P, isn't Paul, and the evidence is 22.
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No objection. So this is the femur, the front part of the femur, the back part of the femur, and we can see an area that's been cut away in the ball or head of the femur, an area here on the proximal shaft of the upper part, an area on the distal shaft down here, and an area down here basically at the knee.
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And then those areas were present when you first saw the femur, correct? Correct. Not like those were caused by some type of trauma or gunshot wound or anything? Correct. Okay. Thank you. Did the medical examiner's office eventually receive all of the bones and the human remains back at your office from the pallet lab? Yes, we did.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, not at the time. All right. Sidebar, please.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You mentioned earlier that during your x-ray you saw those projectile fragments from that projectile embedded in the skull immediately with them. Correct. Were those fragments removed by the anthropology lab and sent back to you? Yes. During the course of your autopsy, did you examine all of the bones that were provided to you? Yes. except for that single gunshot wound to the back of the skull.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Anything about the tone or tenor of those responses?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you locate any other trauma to either the skull or any other bones you examined?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not that would be considered trauma at or around the time of death, what we call perimortem trauma. There was some damage to some of the ribs. However, that was interpreted as post-mortem trauma.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Based on Scott Amachuccio's concerns about this concrete slab where the duck pond is going to be in the back, Deputy Corey Anderson asked permission to go and take a look around the property. The defendant allowed that. Deputy Anderson got to the area where this concrete slab was located, And he noticed something unusual about that slab.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After death?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Meaning after death.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So did you locate any evidence of a chip or a break in any of the other bones as a result of trauma, either a struck or another gunshot wound or something like that? No. You mentioned that there were some fractures in the skull around that gunshot entrance wound. Were those fractures caused by that single gunshot wound entrance? Yes.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We see on TV, CSI, that having to be from CSI can tell you that these phones were buried on this date, this month, this year. Is that real? No, unfortunately. Are you able to do that? No. Are you able to determine, and with great generality, when, based on the condition of the bones, they would have been buried?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, there was one particular one that, you know, I assume that it was him because there was nothing evident at the time that he had asked for my mother's phone number, our mother's phone number, and said that he had tried to get a hold of her. It was after much after she was sick. And asked me if it had changed. And I texted back and said no, that it hadn't changed.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
To a very limited extent, with very broad potential ranges.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What are those ranges or parameters?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Well, again, it depends on the individual case. So in this particular case, I would have to depend really on the anthropology examination because they deal with primarily bones. Is that a question to ask them? It probably would be a better question to ask them because they can go into detail as to how they came to that.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Fair enough. Did you determine the cause of death in this case? Yes. What was the cause of death of Michael Shaver?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In my opinion, gunshot wound of head. What did you determine the manner of death to be? In my opinion, homicide. Thank you, doctor. That's no question, sir.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mr. Wiggs. Yes, may it please the court. Yes, sir. Good afternoon, Dr. Shah. Afternoon. Pleasure seeing you. You too. Recall me taking your deposition some time ago? I do. Okay. We did that by Zoom, I believe, correct? Yes. Okay. And at that time, I gained certain information from you. And part of that information I was able to glean.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was it not that you rely on multiple sources to conduct an investigative autopsy such as this?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sure. As part of the process of coming to an opinion of cause and manner of death, I piece together lots of information from lots of different sources. Part of that is the autopsy, but there are other things.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You use reports such as... Police reports, incident reports, correct? When those are available, yes, or discussions with law enforcement. Okay, so you usually look to law enforcement. You have somebody inside doing investigative work, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you say inside, you mean inside the... Medical examiner's office. That's correct. So the medical examiner's office itself, we have our own investigators that do investigation as well. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And you rely on other reports generated in other agencies, such as the pound, as you discussed in this case, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sometimes, yes, certainly, as it applies to this case.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So it's not just your opinion you're relying on. You're relying on the opinions and conclusions of other individuals, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Correct. I bring together as much information as I possibly can to reach my opinions and my conclusions.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's just a yes or no question. You rely on other people's conclusions as well.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I also rely on additional information. It's not always their conclusions, but it's sometimes their interpretations.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You rely on dental examinations, FDLE reports, correct? For certain parts of the investigation, yes. We know you relied on other documents and reports in this case, correct?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He noticed that there was a depression in that concrete slab, the place where that slab was sagging into the ground. Deputy Anderson knew that when a body is buried and a body is decomposing, that decomposition process eventually leaves a void for where that body was located, which causes depression.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, there were additional reports that were generated in this case that... Again, add into the totality of the information for the case. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We know it takes you about an hour or so to do one of these investigations, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
About an hour or so to do the autopsy or the physical examination of the bones. And it varies a good bit depending on the nature of the case. But for an examination of bones, it might take on the order of an hour, especially if they are already clean and dry. Okay. An hour or two, correct? Roughly, yes.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And gave the phone number again just to make sure that he had the correct one. But that was kind of, I think that was the last communication I had.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's a fair statement. Sure. And in this case, when you received the bones... that you did this autopsy upon, they were in a skeletal state, correct? Yes. There was no soft tissue on the body, correct? Correct. The internal organs had deteriorated, correct? Correct. So any injuries to the internal organs were not visible, correct? Correct, because those organs were no longer present.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They had decomposed. Correct. So you don't know the degree of any combat or any altercation that occurred by looking at other evidence, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Correct. Correct, in the sense that there is no soft tissue to examine in this case. Correct.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In November of 2015, did you ever go pick Michael Shaver up from his home and take him anywhere so he can leave his family?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, you'd spoken about the gunshot entry wound. Where was that located? And approximately the middle of the back of his head. Okay. And it's my understanding from our previous discussions, you were unable to determine whether the person was sitting or standing, correct? Correct. You weren't able to line up and figure out where not anybody had approached the subject, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is it fair to say that your contact with your father over the years was not frequent?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Correct. Correct. Those are issues of the circumstances of the death, and there's no anatomic finding that tells me in this case his position.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You weren't able to discern the height of the individual that had engaged Mr. Shaver, correct? Correct. Was the skeleton in full state, or were there broken portions of it? It was almost complete, but it was disarticulated.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you reconstruct the skull? The skull was actually almost completely intact. There were fractures, but it had not come apart at that point. During the examination at the Pound Lab, there was some separation of those fracture lines, but it was almost complete to my recollection.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There may have been some small pieces above the orbits on the inside that were absent, but the majority, certainly the outer part of the cranium was almost complete.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How many was in evidence? I think it was 43, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Are those the fragments that you testified to?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I'd say it was more occasional than frequent.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
These are the additional small fragments that were recovered by the Pound Lab. And those were located in what portion of the body? In the skull. Okay. Do you know where in the skull? I do not know precisely where. The x-rays showed one fragment that was most likely adhered to the inner table, but there was a fragment that was very close to the entrance wound.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'd have to refer to their report for exactly where they recovered that fragment. So the particle of radiopaque material that they ultimately recovered was was associated with the entrance defect. So it's basically right at that entrance fracture. Basically a portion of the projectile split off and basically went into the bone as it was entering the skull.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And the various occasional responses that you and other family members may have received in 2015, 2016, through Facebook or other sources such as that, did that alleviate initial concerns that something was wrong with Michael?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There was no soft tissue in the neck, correct? Correct. There was no analysis of any entry potential through the neck region, correct? Not through the soft tissue because there was no soft tissue to examine. The bones, however, were... Were there any meteorological tests done on the metal itself to connect it to the remaining fragment?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not by me. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Basically, those fragments are turned over to law enforcement for any... Do you know whether or not you received any report data dealing with that subject?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Seeing this depression in the concrete, combined with the concerns of Scott Amatuchio, and now thinking this could be a grave, Deputy Anderson became more suspicious. He actually took out his phone, took a couple pictures of this depression. He then went and provided this information to other detectives at the Lake County Sheriff's Office. He reported what you found in all this information.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I did not receive any report data to my recollection. I have not been presented any such report. However, we normally wouldn't get such a report if such existed. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So when you say that the death was caused by homicide and it was caused by one womb, you're unable to testify with all certainty whether or not there was any other injury to any internal organ or an entrance through a neck or another region through soft tissue, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. Correct. So if there was an additional injury or injuries that were solely through soft tissue and did not involve bone, then I would have no way of knowing about those. Very well.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This may sound kind of a silly proposition in one respect, but when you do an autopsy, you don't have particularly absent any bones. brain or other soft tissue in the body, you don't know whether or not this man was suffering from any kind of psychological issues, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So even during a regular autopsy, generally, we cannot infer a psychiatric illness from the autopsy findings alone. That depends on the preceding history, medical history or other history that would give us most of that information. We can infer some an element of brain damage, but that's not the same as saying someone has a psychiatric disorder.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So really, the autopsy is limited to the physical structure. It doesn't entertain any consideration about the circumstances how the individual was shot, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There's more than one component here. So the autopsy itself, yes. We're looking at the anatomic or physical findings. And sometimes we can correlate those with history and circumstances or scene findings and those kinds of things. But the autopsy itself is focused primarily on gathering anatomic physical data that we can then look at and try to correlate with the remainder of the case.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And in the report that you constructed in this case, there's a section that deals with death information. And I think it was noted visual, correct? I'm sorry, could you... The date of death. It was just defined really based on information other people had supplied, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not to me, because I felt that there was communication, even though it was very limited, that kind of took the worry that something was wrong. Nothing further, sir.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So there is no specific date of death on the autopsy report. Instead, we have what's called a date found. So that's the date he was actually located. Now, you may be referring to the investigator's report, which may have a date of death present. Any such date. In fact, it has the, again, when he was originally found as the date of death being March 9th, 2018. So that's date found.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's not intended to be the date. It's not an opinion of when he actually died. There were no burn marks on the body or the structure, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not that I identified, no. Indicating it had been in a fire, correct? Correct. Was there any evidence that the body had been moved?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The fact that the body was recovered buried is an indication that the body had been moved at some point. However, it's also true that it's possible that he received his fatal injury while within the grave somehow. But those findings are really based on the totality of the circumstances, not just the anatomic findings. So you can't tell where Mr. Shaver was shot? Correct.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I can't tell where he was physically located at the time that he was shot. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, was there any in your report, any indication of any injuries or damage to the teeth of Michael Shaver? To the teeth?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Right. Not to my recollection, but I will look through the odontology report briefly. There was no noted perimortem injury. There were evidence of restorations or dental work that had been done, and some of the teeth were missing. However, no known perimortem injury.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mr. Wigg, Mr. Shaver, have you ever been to your brother's house?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
On March 9th of 2018, law enforcement obtained a search warrant. And the search warrant is basically a document assigned by a judge that allows law enforcement to go to a location and search and collect certain evidence.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, so there were some teeth missing, correct? Yes. You know, they've been broken, moving the body, post-mortem, pre-mortem?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Again, I am referring to the odontology and anthropology reports that also involve the teeth. I would have to review the photographs to say as to which were missing post-mortem versus which were missing anti-mortem. Basically, the difference there is that if a tooth goes missing or falls out or gets knocked out, say, years before death, then the bone tends to heal over.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
and there's no socket left. Whereas if the bone falls out at the time of death or after, then there's an empty socket there. It is very, very common for teeth to fall out in the decomposition or skeletonized stage because there's no soft tissue still holding those teeth in place. So a little bump sometimes can knock those loose.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, sir, I have not.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Never even been there?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Could they be loosened or knocked out, transported in the body? It's possible. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And were there any missing teeth or damaged teeth? Not injured or damaged teeth that I noted that would be considered perimortem injury around the time of death. No, this is the Pound Lab report.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So when we talk about communications, we're not talking about many communications, are we?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do they indicate or is there any indication there of any damage to any teeth? I'm just going to read the page that you presented to me. Let me look, direct your attention. to your deposition instead. Sure. Okay. Page 45. Watch your look on line 25.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Is that refreshing, like I said?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So just reading from that, line 25 says absence of teeth number 1, number 16, number 17, and number 32 due to loss slash extraction or agenesis, meaning, just for interpretation, that those were removed or absent well before death. And just looking just above that, I was referencing the anthropology report. So it's in there somewhere.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So there's some missing teeth, though, correct? Sure. When you use the word postmortem, you're talking about after death, correct? Yes. Okay. Did you assess that issue and reach any conclusions whether there was any postmortem damage to the body or injuries?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I mean, telephone and, I mean, visits.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So based on the authority given by the search warrant, law enforcement, detectives, crime scene investigators went out to the Shaver residence to search for evidence related to the disappearance of Michael Shaver. Crime scene investigators trained in the collection of evidence and trained in the collection and excavation of human remains went out to the scene.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There were some injuries to the ribs that were postmortem. Again, I depend largely on the anthropology report for that. Tell me what the post-mortem injury to the ribs was. So I'm turning to page 4 of 23 of the anthropology report. At the bottom of that page, there's a section called post-mortem damage. And within that, they describe post-mortem breakage of multiple ribs.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yeah. Did you call Lori Shaver? No.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I can read that report if you'd like me to.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I have you that position here.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Okay.
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If you'd like to refresh your red and black, stop page 40 cents. Line 8, 9, and 10.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So reading from the highlighted section of 8, 9, and 10, quote, it says there is post-mortem breakage on multiple nine ribs, comma, okay. Oh, wait, that's your question. That was the question from you. My answer was yes.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So there was entry to the ribs after that? Yes. Correct? Yes. And that post-mortem injury to the ribs, could that be associated with transporting the body from one location to another?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Never thought to pick up a phone and call her? No. You stated this surfaced around 2014?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So the interpretation or the determination of whether an injury is post-mortem or not depends on a few different things. I largely would depend on the anthropology consultant to address those issues. But the most common finding that I see that distinguishes an anti-mortem or perimortem injury from a clearly post-mortem injury is a difference in coloration of the break.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So if an injury occurs around the time of death, then the surface of the broken bone, so the broken edge, will have basically the same coloration as the rest of the surface of the bone because it's going through the same process. It's being exposed to the same environment. Whereas a bone that fractures post-mortem or well after that, is usually a lighter color because it's cleaner.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It hasn't been exposed to the same processes. It hasn't been exposed to the elements the same way or the decomposition process the same way. However, in this particular case, again, I would depend on the anthropologist to distinguish precisely what they meant by the postmortem breaks.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They do describe within their report that the margins of at least some of the breaks are lighter in color than the surrounding bone. So for this to occur during the manipulation phase or the phase of moving a body, it would most likely be well after death. In other words, far enough after death for there to be a difference in the environmental exposure.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I believe so.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And how long did this go on before you thought something may be up?
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So probably not hours, but probably a much longer time frame. Okay. Would it create a difference in the color of the ribs? if that post-mortem interval is long enough before that secondary post-mortem break occurs.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And there was damage to the sternal ends of the ribs as well as to 4, 8, 18, and 10, correct? Right ribs 4, 8, and 10, yes. Okay. And in examination of the body and the records, you discovered that the body had what are referred to as buckle fractures, correct? Correct.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And with the use of some ground penetrating radar, their focus quickly turned to this concrete slab with a fire pit and where there was a depression in that concrete. Had some heavy equipment was brought in to dismantle that fireplace and to break up that concrete slab to give them access to the dirt beneath the concrete slab. And that excavation process began.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
During my review of the anthropology report, they described that, yes.
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And a buckle fracture is where one side of the rib breaks or fractures and not the other, correct? That's my understanding, yes. Yeah, where the body would be of this, the ribs would be of the same tension or tenderness, correct, throughout.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But basically means that one, there's two sides of a rib and one side buckles or fractures, whereas the other side doesn't show anything. And that usually occurs at the time or about the time of death, correct?
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I mean, when the communications stopped, we began to really worry that what happened to him. Where did he go? Did he disappear? Did something bad happen to him?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Again, although that usually is the case, in this particular case is interpreted by the anthropologists, again, depending on their report, that because the fracture margins are a different color, they interpreted that as post-mortem.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Does the composition of the soil impact any coloration of the bones?
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Although I believe it can, I'd have to defer to the anthropologist on that question.
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Have you ever seen a body in one soil and it ingrains within it or pulls within the bone itself the composition of the soil, creating the coloration in the bones themselves?
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I would only speak to coloration, not to composition.
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That's what I mean.
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But yes, you know, coloration, if the surface color of the bone is generally going to be closer to the surface color of the soil that's on it. However, there's a lot of different things that can potentially go into that and alter those things.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Well, you receive reports from other agencies, police reports and the pound and FDLA, etc. Did you receive any reports? from FDLE analyzing any soil compounds?
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Did you ever take him to Georgia and drop him off anywhere up there?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How long? What was that period of time that you said, hey, maybe we need to do something?
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I was not presented with a report when these materials were provided to me later. I received these materials after I moved on from the District 5 Medical Examiner's Office. Okay.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And it's your position that the body may have been dead for months to several years, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I would defer to the anthropologist in that case. However, for an individual to be completely skeletonized and dry, normally that would be at least several months, if not longer, from my personal experience.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you ever make a statement contrary to that? Not to my recollection. Line 18 is the question, so that's from you.
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So they, their conclusion was the body has been dead several months to several years, correct? Answer, that's how I interpret that, yes. So that's my interpretation of how it was presented in the anthropology report, which I defer to.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Probably a year.
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A year. Okay. So was it in 2016?
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So as Mr. Bunce might ask you, as you said here, offer your scientific opinions and statements. You don't know how long the body had been in the ground, correct? Not precisely, no. Okay. And any statement took by law enforcement would be their conjecture on outside evidence, correct? Not scientific evidence.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They'd have to address where they're getting that information. Right. If they're being specific.
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After your report, did you speak to law enforcement ever again?
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Okay. Do you speak with the state?
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I don't recall.
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Yes, I'm sure I did at some point.
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Okay. Refer you to your deposition, page 52, line 20.
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Line 20, question, did you speak with Mr. Camuccio at all? Answer, for me, about this case, question, yes, sir. Answer, I don't. I don't recall having done so. If I did, I don't recall. I certainly don't recall a lengthy conversation about this case. If I did, it was probably quite a long time ago. That was at the time of deposition. I did speak with them following deposition.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You don't recall. Okay. And so you never pick up a phone and call Lori?
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So prior to your deposition and after a shaver had been arrested, you hadn't spoken to the state again?
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Not up to that point, not to my recollection, no. Okay.
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Please introduce yourself.
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Cryo scene investigators began that slow and painstaking excavation process by digging up dirt, sifting that dirt, separating potential evidence. And that process went for a period of time. As they dug, and as they dug, and as they sifted, They eventually came across a humorous bone, which is a bone in an arm.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, my name is Edgar Perez, and I am currently employed at the Florida Department of Law Enforcement in the biology and DNA section of the Orlando Regional Operations Center.
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How long have you worked there?
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Approximately 17 years.
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What do you do at Orlando?
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So currently I am one of the statewide assistant quality managers, particularly over the biology and DNA discipline. But when I worked this case, I was a crime laboratory analyst.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Were you provided some evidence collected in the case of State of Florida v. Lori Shaver, Lake County Sheriff's Office Case 180025431? I was. I want to start with some questions pertaining to the identification of the victim in this case. Were you provided a buckle swab or a known DNA standard from a person named Douglas Shaver? Yes, I was. So you wasn't introduced and known as a state citizen?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I didn't even have her telephone number.
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Let's analyze that item. I did. Yes, I obtained a complete DNA profile from the sample. So now if you have a complete DNA profile from Douglas Shaver, are you able to compare that profile to something collected at the scene to see if those profiles match or if... Let's say in this case, a femur bone originated from a biological child of Douglas Shaver. Yes.
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That's how close y'all were, correct? I was not close with Lori, no.
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Did you in fact receive a femur bone from the Lake County Sheriff's Office?
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Yes, I did.
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Did you in fact take cuttings from that femur or take portions of that femur bone to use in your DNA analysis? Yes. Did you perform DNA analysis on those portions of the femur bone that you removed? I did. And what were your results?
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Okay. And you're not present, sitting here telling the jury you witnessed any kind of homicide, correct? No, I did not. Okay. You don't know who he was with the last 24 hours, correct?
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From the femur bone, I was able to obtain a complete DNA profile that was consistent with originating from a male individual.
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How do you know it came from a male?
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As part of the DNA process, there is an area that's called a malagenin, and it's a sex determining marker. Basically, if you have an X and an X, you're a female. If you have an X and a Y, biologically, you are considered a male.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So did you then compare that male DNA profile that you obtained from the femur to the known DNA standards obtained from Douglas Schaefer?
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Yes. In this particular situation, that would consist of me doing a parentage type of analysis since I am dealing with a sample that is from an alleged parent to an alleged biological child.
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So how are you able to then tell whether the femur bone was from a biological child of Douglas Shaver by doing this analysis?
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When the DNA profile was obtained from the femur bone, it was compared to the profile from Douglas Shaver. And during that comparison, it was determined that it's consistent with being the biological child of Douglas Shaver. And the single parentage index, which is an odds ratio, comparing the probability of the observed profile that was obtained from Michael Douglas Shaver
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
coming from the biological parent versus some other unrelated random individual in the population. And that probability was 21,000. Now, I also did a single parentage probability of exclusion calculation, which is the chance that a random individual will be correctly excluded as a biological parent. And that is approximately 99.99%.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So is it fair to say the DNA from the femur bone is consistent with coming from the biological child of Edla Schaefer? Yes. You're referring to some other pieces of evidence that you received from the Lake County Sheriff's Office. Did you receive some fingernail and toenails collected from the scene of a grave in which a skeleton was located? Yes, that's correct.
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Because it was getting late at this point, and crime scene investigators realized that they have a lot more work to do and it's going to be getting dark pretty soon, they stopped the excavation process and put it on hold until the following morning when it became light out.
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So it was introduced as evidence to say it was a 21. Did you analyze those finger and toenails for the presentation?
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No, I do not.
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Yes, I did.
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What were your results?
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When these samples were submitted through the DNA process, they went through the process of quantitation to figure out the amount of DNA in the sample. And unfortunately, those samples failed to demonstrate a sufficient amount of DNA to go forward through the complete DNA analysis process.
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So there was just not enough DNA there for you to even do any kind of analysis? That's correct. If we know their finger and toenails, how could that be?
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You don't know about any altercation that transpired, correct?
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It depends on the condition of them. If we're dealing with a sample that was exposed to environmental conditions, DNA that could be found in the nail bed could be degrading over time, or there may just not be any DNA there present.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The DNA degrade over time, even if the body was buried under the ground and not in the direct heat, things like that?
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Yeah, so there are soil humectants and bacteria that would eventually start degrading the DNA.
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So is that at all surprising that you weren't able to find sufficient DNA from those finger and toenails to do any kind of a comparison? Not at all. Were you also provided some boxer shorts and some other shorts to analyze for the presence of DNA? I was. Or do you recognize that item? I do. Did you analyze that item for the presence of DNA?
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I know of a previous one, yes.
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Yes, for this specific item, I'm describing the boxers, the shorts, the black shorts. I did test for the presence of semen on there, and it failed to give chemical indications for the presence of semen. A sample was also taken from the item for DNA, and it was again submitted through the DNA process through quantitation.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. You don't have a previous one. Okay. Did you witness this previous? I did not. Okay. So you don't see any kind of altercation. You just say, hey, we heard from Michael last around 2014, correct? Correct. And sometime thereafter, I don't know, we became a little concerned, correct?
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It failed to demonstrate sufficient amounts of DNA quantitation to go forward with a complete DNA process.
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Again, considering that those shorts were found buried in the ground, does that surprise you? No, it does not. Did you do any analysis of the underwear, the boxer shorts?
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Going back to November of 2015, did you have any upcoming plans with Michael Shaver for later in the month?
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There was no examination performed on the underwear due to the condition of the exhibit.
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What was wrong with it? What do you mean by the condition?
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The exhibit was decomposed and shredded. There's just absolutely no way that I could conceivably swab any portion of it for DNA.
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Did you analyze a blue tarp from IMT for the presence of DNA?
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Yes, I did.
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Do you recognize that item? I do. And how did you analyze that blue tarp for the presence of DNA?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The blue tarp would have been swapped with a similar swab as it's used to collect the inside of the mouth. It's just a giant Q-tip. I would swab the surface of the item to collect any type of DNA that could have been transferred onto the item, and then subjected it to the DNA analysis process.
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Law enforcement officers were stationed and posted in the area to make sure that nobody came onto the scene to disturb any of the evidence or do anything to the Shaver residents. The next morning, law enforcement officers, crime scene investigators, medical examiner investigators, and other people went to the Shaver residence to continue this excavation process.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What were your results when you tried to collect DNA from this harp?
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When the sample was sent through the DNA process, it reached the point of quantitation. And when it got there, there wasn't sufficient amounts of DNA to go forward with the DNA process.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Again, considering that chart was buried in the ground, is that surprising at all that there was insufficient DNA for you to even analyze? No, it does not. Showing you a green strap and a tater with some other debris flitting from the gray site. You analyzed that item for the presence of DNA. Yes, I did. What were your results?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Similar to with the blue tarp, the sample went through up to quantitation and there was insufficient amounts of DNA to go forward with STR DNA analysis.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that was from what item did you attempt to extract DNA?
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This would have been the green nylon strap, and there's a white elastic strap as well. Did you analyze the items contained in the Tupperware at all? No, the exhibit that was listed as miscellaneous items from the grave site was not examined. Why not? There was no way of me collecting DNA from those items, and the expectation is that I would not obtain DNA profiles from the condition of them.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm showing you a swab taken from the exterior track of the sliding glass door, which dates to the 17th. Did you analyze that by the work printing of the DNA?
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Yes, I did. What were your results? There were no STR DNA results obtained from this exhibit.
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What does that mean?
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That means that there was not even a single peak present when it was taken through the entire DNA process.
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So, no DNA at all in that swab? No. Showing you a swab from a stain below the sliding left door. Thunder at that porch. State Specific 18. Did you analyze that item for the presence of DNA?
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Yes, I did.
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And what did you find?
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So the sample went through the DNA process. It reached the point of quantitation, and it was determined that there wasn't sufficient amounts of DNA to go forward with the DNA analysis process.
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Considering that this sample was collected on the exterior of a house, does that surprise you? No, it does not. For the same reason you previously described? Yes. Showing you States Exhibit 16, a swab taken from the interior sliding door track, from the sliding glass door of the residence. Did you analyze that item for the presence of DNA? I did. And what did you find?
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So this particular sample demonstrated the presence of a mixture consistent with three donors, including at least one male.
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What does that mean?
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When I obtained a mixture, like I was saying, you get half of your DNA from your mother and half from your father. I'm only expecting two pieces of DNA information at each location that I look at. If I see more than two pieces of information at multiple locations, it gives me an indication that there are multiple donors to that sample or multiple DNA profiles.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So it's creating effectively a DNA puzzle.
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In this case, you indicated that there were three donors?
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Yes, that's correct.
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And one of the donors was male?
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And yet we never call Lori, correct? Correct.
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Yes, at least one donor was a male.
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How did you determine that at least one donor was male?
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In the DNA process, you can only see the XX or the XY once. It's not like different males have different Y chromosomes. So if there is a male in a sample, I can only tell that there's at least one. because of the presence of the Y chromosome.
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Are you sometimes able to separate out the DNA profiles contained in a mixture and compare it to known DNA samples?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
As crime scene investigators continued to dig and continued to sift the dirt, they came across a blue tarp buried in the ground. Beneath that blue tarp, they found human remains. The bones and the human remains were clearly skeletonized,
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Yes, it's possible.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Are you able to tell the source of the DNA that you found on that swab? Meaning, was it saliva, blood, sweat, semen, things like that?
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No, I would not be able to tell you the source.
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I did not myself personally.
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Did you compare the known profile of Douglas Shaver to the mixture that you found on the swab from the interior portion of the sliding glass door?
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Yes, I did. What were your results? Douglas Shaver was excluded as a contributor to that mixed DNA profile. He was excluded?
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Thank you.
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Yes. Meaning he dealt with Shaver's DNA, could not have been part of that mixture?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Please introduce yourself, please.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Based on his DNA profile, it's not conceivable that it fits into that mixture as it stands.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you compare the DNA profile from the femur, reportedly the femur of Michael Shaver, to the DNA mixture you found from the swab in the interior of that sliding glass door? I did. And what were your results?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My name is Douglas Shaver.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The comparison of the profile from Michael Douglas Shaver failed to demonstrate sufficient statistical support for inclusion or exclusion. Therefore, I can't make any determinations as to the presence of Michael Douglas Shaver on this item.
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Bottom line, you can't tell scientifically if Michael Shaver was a contributor to that mixture, correct? No, I cannot. Did you compare the known DNA profile of Lori Shaver to the mixture from that swab on the interior of the sliding glass door? I did. What were your results?
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And did you know Mike Shaver?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So Lori Shaver was included as a possible contributor to this DNA mixture, and it was approximately 3.1 billion times more likely to occur if the sample originated from Lori Shaver and two unrelated individuals than from three unrelated individuals.
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Yes, he's my son.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you also analyze a piece of vinyl laminated flooring recovered from a fire pit? Yes, I did. And before we get to the laminated flooring, if this, referring back to the swab on the interior sliding glass door, would... A profile consistent with Lori Shaver's DNA being included in that mixture. Would that be surprising considering that this was her house and she lived there? Not necessarily.
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And how many children do you have?
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Referring to the laminate flooring that we just talked about, did you analyze that item for the presence of DNA?
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This particular item? Presence of blood. Yes, so I did a serological test for the presence of blood.
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I have four.
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What were the results of that chemical blood test?
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So this particular exhibit failed to give chemical indications for the presence of blood.
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Did you do any further DNA analysis on that item?
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No, I did not.
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At that point, if I don't have an indication of the presence of a fluid, then I'm not expecting to get any DNA except for any extraneous type that might be there. And given that it's a piece of random material from the environment, who knows what you can pick up from it if you swab it.
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And where is Michael?
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Those human remains, there were socks on them, there was a pair of boxers and a pair of shorts on human remains, and a green ratchet-type strap was wrapped around those bones. Crime scene investigators carefully collected the bones out of the grave, placed them on a tarp, And those bones were transported to the medical examiner's office for an autopsy to be done.
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Thank you, sir. I have another question.
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All right, Mr. Wiggs.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
May it please the court. Yes, sir. Mr. Brass, how are you doing, sir? Hey, good. Yourself? Good, good. Recall I took your deposition? Yes. A couple years ago.
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Michael was the, he would have been next to the youngest.
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It was. It's been some time, yeah. Yeah, it has been a while.
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I had your report, reviewed it, discussed it with you at your deposition, and... Throughout your direct examination, the state talked to you about multiple exhibits, items that were found in the gravesite, correct? That's correct. And you used the terminology degraded versus none, correct? Yes. Okay. Is it not a fact that there could have been DNA presence? No.
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or divided that DNA precedent some time, but what you were able to examine didn't have any DNA. It's a possibility. Okay. So aside from saying that the evidence was degraded, it may be that it never had any DNA.
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Yes, there is a possibility that there was not DNA in the object.
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So when the states asked you, does it surprise you, does it surprise you, does it surprise you, and you've stated, no, not given the condition of the item, it may be the item may never have had any DNA on it, correct?
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At some point while he was a child, did you and his mother divorce? Yes, we did. What type of contact would you have with Michael Shamer after that?
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Yes, that is a possibility. Okay.
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So we're looking at your report. Do you have a copy of your report before you? I do. Okay. Let's go to the door, okay, and the rear track. Were you ever able to determine anybody's DNA in that region of the track? Could you determine which report and which exhibit? Let me see. Number 23. Okay. Okay. What was your conclusion?
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The only comparison that I was able to provide an inclusion for was for the profile of Lori Shaver. Did that make sure of three donors?
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Okay. There was three donors, including at least one male contributor. Yes, that's correct. Okay. Whose known male contributor profiles were you supplying?
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I was given the DNA profile from Douglas Shaver and then the profile from the femur, which was also a male individual, which was represented as being Michael Douglas Shaver.
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Those were the only profiles that were provided to the attorney's office, correct? Yes. And that was recovered, to your understanding, on the lower region of the doorway, correct? Based on the description from the item, yes. So on the blue tarp, there was no DNA recovered, correct? Just to make this clear.
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I would have him during the summer months. I'd have him flown down, and then I'd usually have him at Christmas time.
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There was insufficient amounts of DNA to go forward.
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Insufficient meaning, again, as we've spoken, there may never have been any, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So in this particular sample, when I took it through the quantitation process, there was an indication of potentially DNA being present. But if it doesn't hit a specific threshold, the sample doesn't go forward for DNA analysis.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So there was a lack of evidence on that item, correct? Yes. And every item that was supplied to you... Dealing with the gravesite, none of those had any profile hits for Lori Shaver, correct?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not that I'm aware of.
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Okay. The linoleum or the flooring that was supplied, that had no profile or hit. of any DNA containing Lori Shaver, correct?
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For that piece of the floor tile, I only tested it for blood and I stopped processing after it didn't give chemical indications for the presence of blood.
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Okay. Were there any hairs found in the gravesite location that were supplied to you?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I believe Exhibit 22, there were hairs associated with that exhibit.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. And did they yield any kind of profile of any individual? No.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What kind of contact would you have with him once he became an adult?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So for the hairs that I examined from the exhibit, which were the swabs from the stain on the sliding, on the siding below the sliding door under the back porch. So there were some apparent hairs that were also submitted with that. I looked at those hairs under the microscope, and they were not suitable to go forward with DNA processing.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So the hairs couldn't even yield any DNA profile, correct?
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Based on the analysis that I performed in the lab, those hairs were not suitable to go forward. That's not to say that there are other laboratories that may potentially do other types of testing on hairs, but based on the limitations that I have in the laboratory, I couldn't test those hairs.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, we were planning on having Thanksgiving together.
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Were those sent to any other laboratory for further testing? Not to my knowledge. Did you test any object in the house that was supplied to you that contained any DNA from Lori Shaver?
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It was limited.
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There were no exhibits that had any association to Laurie Shaver except for that one from the anterior lower track of the sliding door, which was Exhibit 23.
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Correct. One moment, please.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir. No further questions.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did there come a period of time in 2014 where Michael was not living with his wife, Lauren?
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Second shot. All right. Redirect. Very briefly. The hairs that you talked about, you said cross-suit holes, except you've been playing with reels.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So when I look at it microscopically, I examine the root to see if it's in the correct stage of growth or if it has follicular material, meaning there's skin cells that were pulled off from your scalp onto the hair. And I didn't notice either of these. So the hairs were not sent forward for DNA analysis because of the two characteristics that I look at when I'm taking hairs for DNA.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
While still on scene, one of the crime scene investigators, Jessica Holcomb, made contact with Mike DeShaver's father, Doug Shaver. Doug Shaver had come down from Georgia, down to Claremont, now that the Shaver residence. We learned that law enforcement was doing this investigation of what law enforcement had found the night before.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you, sir. No other questions.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mr. Wiggs? No, nothing further. Thank you, Judge. All right.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I really don't know.
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And was Michael ever in the military?
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After November of 2015, did there come a time where the family started being concerned about Michael Shaver's whereabouts? Yes. And can you describe the things that the family started to do once they became concerned?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can you please introduce yourself to the crew?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Crime scene investigator Jessica Holcomb collected a DNA sample from Doug Shaver, which took a swab and put it inside of his mouth and collected what's called a buccal swab as a known DNA standard for comparisons.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was the last time that you physically saw or spoke in person to Michael Schiff?
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I'm not much into texting and basically what I was told from other family members that we're texting back and forth. Objection. Judge Kirstein.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They both were sent to work on November 10th of 2015. They worked the night shift, which was 7 p.m. to 7 and 4 a.m. Tuesday, November 10, 2015, throw it around. Michael Shaver didn't show up for work. He didn't show up. He didn't call saying, hey, I'm not coming in. This was unusual for Michael Shaver not to show up for work and not to call saying, hey, I can't make it for whatever reason.
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You'll hear that the femur bone collected from the grave, along with the DNA standards from Douglas Shaver, Michael Shaver's father, were sent to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement for DNA analysis. The DNA analyst Edgar Perez compared the DNA from that femur bone found in the grave to the known DNA standard of Douglas Shaver and confirmed what at this point was known to everyone.
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Sustained. My question specifically was, what types of things was the family doing once, not why you all were concerned, but what types of things were done once the concern began?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Then they just started searching and contacted the Sheriff's Department.
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Were you able to have any sort of contact, either talking to Mr. Schaefer on the phone or speaking to him in person after November of 2015?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He determined that the DNA from the femur was consistent with coming from a bone of the biological child of Douglas Shaver. This confirmed Michael Shaver, who had been missing and not heard from since November of 2015, was in that grave, deceased. As I said, Michael Shaver's remains were collected and transported to the medical examiner's office for an autopsy to be done.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And once the body was discovered in the backyard of the Shaver residence, did law enforcement contact you about that discovery? I was down there. And were you present and did you submit a DNA sample to law enforcement for future comparisons?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nothing further, Judge?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mr. Wakes. Mr. Shaver, you were relatively estranged from your son, were you not? For a period of time. For a period of time. When did you guys have this reunification? Pardon me? When was there ever a reunification between the two of you?
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It was at least a month before we were making plans for Thanksgiving.
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And that's where Dr. Kyle Shaw, one of the medical examiners there, performed an autopsy. When he examined the skull that was recovered, he found an obvious single gunshot wound to the back of the skull, all the way to the back of the skull, consisting of that of a gunshot wound. He found a bullet or a projectile inside the skull.
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I really don't understand the question.
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When did you guys get back together?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
An analysis later determined that that bullet was of a .38 caliber class, meaning that bullet could have been fired from a .38, a .380, a .357, or a 9-millimeter. That .38 caliber class can be fired of any of those types of caliber guns because the size is varied.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you have an event to the Shaver residence?
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I've never been there, except the day when they discovered his body. And you live where? You live where?
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I live in Georgia. So you're up in Georgia. You have some reunification. You never went to the Shaver residence, correct? That's correct. Okay. I'm going to ask you an obvious question. Obviously, you never occurred a homicide in this case, correct?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So, there was no exit wound to the skull, indicating a single entrance wound, hence the projectile being found inside the skull when it recovered. Dr. Shaw examined the skull, found no other injuries or no other trauma. He examined all of the other bones collected. He found no other signs of trauma or injuries, no chips or breaks, no tongue or whatsoever in any of the other bones.
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That's correct.
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You don't know how Michael died the day of his death?
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you ever receive any contact about those Thanksgiving plans, either canceling it or doing anything with those plans?
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Do I not know how he died?
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Oh, no, no. That's correct.
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Based on his analysis, Dr. Shaw determined that the cause of death was the single gunshot wound to the back of the head and deferring this to be a homicide. Michael Shaver's remains were then sent to a laboratory associated with the University of Florida. It's a laboratory called the Pound Lab, and they specialize in the analysis and examination of human remains.
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That's correct.
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All right. I have no further questions yet. All right, redirect.
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Please introduce yourself and the chair.
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Hi, I'm Desiree Ruggles.
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Did you know Michael Shearer?
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Part 1: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Dr. Samantha Coberly examined the remains as well, determined that the remains were consistent with a young to middle-aged male, of which Michael Shaver was. And they were consistent with having been in the ground for several months to several years. She also examined the skull, saw that single gunshot wound, and confirmed in her opinion that was the result of a single gunshot wound.
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Part 2: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. He was my uncle.
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Did you know Lori Shearer?
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Have you ever met her?
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And prior to Michael's death, how often would you communicate with him?
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Never. Sorry, with him? Yes. When I was able to.
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Did you communicate with him at all about the sign frame where you were getting married?
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She also determined, she also examined the skull and the bones and found no other signs of trauma or damage or injury to any other part of the skull or any of the other bones recovered. And almost the entire skeleton was recovered.
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I don't remember, honestly.
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Did you send an invitation?
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The Bundy Tapes
because all the sheriff's department calls it tape doesn't bother me they you always figure they know everything anyway yeah how are you doing i'm doing pretty good ted how are you doing well i'm hanging in there i uh i just got the bug last week and uh wanted just wanted to chat with you briefly because we have been away for a long time yeah right and uh right how are things going for you over there uh well quite well quite frankly uh i was just talking to someone the other day and
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The Bundy Tapes
I began thinking about that way back in Utah. I had a year to study criminal law in action. And I'm a very biased person. I have a lot of strong opinions about how things should be done. And when I came here, I think that my opinions were established to the point where the method that my tyrannies wished to impose here and my own did not agree. And we couldn't coexist.
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And theirs were right for them, and mine are going to be right for me. I have the greatest amount of confidence, at least in the preparation stage, that my ideas will work. And believe me, I'm not standing here alone. I'm just called a habit as an attorney friend of mine today. Every day I get input. Every day I ask questions. But the reason I went on my own is because I just felt it was time.
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I felt it was right. I wanted to get involved. I wanted to become a part of my defense because I am such a part of it. I mean, obviously, I'm going to bear the consequences, so why not bear the responsibility of seeking my own acquittal and sustaining my own innocence?
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Ted, when you left Salt Lake, when you were extradited, you issued a statement saying you feel that everything will turn out all right, that you are innocent. Do you still feel that?
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That, yeah, more than ever. Of course, you can't help... but become an advocate for yourself when you're so involved in the case. And being a good defense attorney, and again, I'm not pretending I'm an attorney, but putting yourself in a position of being your own counsel, it's that positive psychology. You're going to do it. You're going to do it because you're right.
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You're going to do it because the person you're representing is innocent. It just happens to be, in this case, I've got a lot at stake, and the person I'm representing is myself, and I'm working all the harder. Yeah, I feel good about it, and yes, I feel that I'm right, and yes, I feel I'm going to make it. No doubt in my mind.
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There's always one thing that amazed me, as you know. I covered your trial, and I was there every day. When the judge found you guilty of second-degree kidnapping, you never showed any emotion. Yeah. For somebody who believes he is so innocent, why was there no emotion?
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My attorney, John O'Connell, in Salt Lake, and I've always mused over just how I should behave. What's the right way for Ted Bundy to behave and make sure that people get the right impression? And I just behaved the way I felt was right. Okay, let me take the day of March 1st, 1976, the day that the judge rendered his verdict in my case first. I didn't show any emotion because...
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They've added a couple of additional Utah transactions, alleged transactions, in their attempt to gain a conviction in the Colorado case. I don't know. I've been so overwhelmed by work recently that, you know, there's just a lot to do. But, you know, way back when, when I was This was back in April when I decided to represent myself in this case.
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You know, what am I supposed to do? Am I going to jump up on the table? Am I going to scream? That's what I felt like doing. I heard my mother crying. It's an emotional time. I don't even like to think of that day.
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But I wasn't going to give these people who went out and built a case around a non-existent eyewitness, an eyewitness identification that was built by the police, I wasn't going to give them the satisfaction of seeing me break down. And sure I may, and I'm showing emotion right now because inside I may. But I've kept it together because there's no point in destroying myself.
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I have got to keep myself together. I have got to stay calm. I've got to keep my presence of mind because as long as I do that, I'm going to beat these people. And that's the way I feel. I showed no emotion. I felt emotion. Believe me. Now... When Carol DeRosh, the kidnapping victim from Utah, came to testify in this preliminary hearing here, I was beside myself with rage.
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She is turning into a professional witness as far as I'm concerned. She is a prosecution witness. And when I heard her go through that routine that I had heard three times before, I had restrained myself every time. I couldn't do it this time. And I told my attorney, I said, I'm going to get
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The Bundy Tapes
inches long now and i felt it he pulled me down he says listen he says you can't do that that's okay but i had to do it for once for once they had to do it and do you know something people say ted bundy didn't show any emotion there must be something in there i showed emotion you know what people said see you really can't get violent and angry uh there's no white right way for me to act i act and i don't care what people think about how i act i act
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The Bundy Tapes
according to the way I think is right and best for me at the time. I'm not going to try to please people or impress people, because quite frankly, the amount of bias and prejudice that surrounds me as a media image, I can't begin to tear down. Not with this interview or a hundred interviews.
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The Bundy Tapes
Ted, do you believe, I'm a person from the media, other people here, do you believe that we created you, that it's our fault that we created this image of The mass murder, is that what you're saying to us?
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The Bundy Tapes
Well, I think in the course of doing the job you did, not in a malign way, not in a personal vendetta against me, but in the course of publishing the material and broadcasting the material coming out of the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office or the Salt Lake County Prosecutor's Office, you began... to plant the seed in people's minds.
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Now, that may be your constitutional right and duty, as well as your livelihood. But I think in the process, you did create a media image of me that's far beyond the reality of me.
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That's what he called it. I suggested it John, we ought to get Mattel to make little dogs that walk and say, I'm the Bundy monster.
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Ted, let me ask you this. You totally believe you're innocent. Mm-hmm. I'm not questioning that. My question to you is, how did it come to be that Ted Bundy could be involved in some of these things and has now been charged, convicted once, is now facing first-degree murder charges? Mm-hmm. And as you know, he was being suspected in other murders. How did Ted Bundy come out?
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The Bundy Tapes
That's a very long story, and I really can't... If I knew the answers to that question, I wouldn't be sitting here right now. I'd be back in Salt Lake with a new trial. And one day I'll have those answers, and one day I'll have a new trial. But I don't know why. I can't begin to understand why. I know that there's a lot of... Police ego on the line.
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The Bundy Tapes
I know that a lot of men in the detective's division, Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office jobs are on the line. I know that a long time ago it ceased to be an issue as to whether or not I was innocent or guilty. The issue is now is can we pin it on him? Can we follow through and maintain our reputation as law enforcement officers?
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The Bundy Tapes
I could just... I was just thinking to myself, I could hear Al big. Yeah, yeah, I knew we tried to do something like that. Yeah, I knew you would. Well, I remember one time you come in. I can't remember whether it was something I read in your report. I think it may have been something I read in one of your reports, quite frankly. That I can't... Delegate responsibility or something to that effect.
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The Bundy Tapes
And I'll tell you, as long as they attempt to keep their heads in the sand about me, there's going to be people turning up in canyons, and there's going to be people being shot in Salt Lake City because the police there aren't willing to accept what I think they know, and they know that I didn't do these things. Okay.
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The Bundy Tapes
Okay. Then how do you exist every day? How do you keep your sound? Well, um... How are you keeping your sound? You're a young man. You're intelligent, obviously. Obviously. How do you stay in that little cell and stay sane?
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The Bundy Tapes
They gave me a year's training course in that. From March 1st of 76 until I was expedited to Colorado, I was locked up. I had a lot of time to work on being locked up. It wasn't easy at first, but now it's easy. I mean, they made me hard inside, and I can spend time in there. I don't like it. I'll never like it, and I'll never accept it.
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But I can deal with it because I know how to, let's say... Have you trained your mind? Train the mind. Is that the word I was going to use? It's not exactly training your mind. It's just creating your own environment in here. And not looking at the ceiling, not looking at the wall, and not thinking about the outside, and not anguishing over the fact that you've lost your freedom.
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But simply in here, simply knowing that some freedom... I mean, I live 24 hours a day in that thing, except when I go to the library. What did you say?
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Exercise? I walk about two miles a day. inside 880 laps. I haven't been following your case that closely, but you'll have to agree you're the target of a great deal of mystery, and you said earlier macabre interest. Why?
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The Bundy Tapes
You'll have to admit there's a hell of a lot of circumstantial evidence, at least circumstantial, it seems to somebody who has read
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No, I won't admit that. No, it's not circumstantial as far as I'm concerned. I don't really know exactly what you're referring to, and I don't really want to discuss it. But I don't care what anybody says or the suspicions anyone harbors on the basis of that misinformation. And indeed, that's what I call it, circumstantial information perhaps, but misinformation as far as I'm concerned.
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A lot of people trying to pin a lot of stuff on somebody because, you know, it's convenient. But... You think you've been set up? Well, I don't think there's any broad scheme, but I think one begins to... I would have to infer that based on some of the police activity. I think following November of 75, you'd have to say that there was a general...
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The Bundy Tapes
design amongst police officers in several jurisdictions to do whatever they could. And I think a statement recently made by a sheriff in Utah County, I believe, he said that he walked out in some of those meetings because it was just clear that they had one thing on their mind and they were going to do anything to prove it. And I think this trial will show exactly what they've done.
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The Bundy Tapes
I don't know. I don't think it's exactly where you put it, but... Yeah, I can't remember anything. But something more or less that I like to, you know, do things myself and have a hard time entrusting things to others. I can't remember how you say it. Yeah, it's an achievement. I'm not sure.
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The Bundy Tapes
I'm not going to sit here and say people have perjured themselves, but I think that will come out. Are you angry? Sure, I get angry. I get very, very angry and indignant.
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I don't like being locked up for something I didn't do, and I don't like my liberty taken away, and I don't like being treated like an animal, and I don't like people walking around and ogling me like I'm some sort of weirdo, because I'm not. I'm perfectly happy with the person I am, and I've always been happy.
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The Bundy Tapes
I mean, yeah, I don't pay my telephone bills on time, and I don't write my mother as many letters as I should. There are all kinds of things I can improve about myself, but a weirdo knows I feel good about myself. I'm happy with myself. You don't change. You stay Ted Bundy 24 hours a day. Well, gee, that name sounds funny. You know, I hear Ted Bundy in so many different contexts. I stay me.
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The Bundy Tapes
Okay, I've matured in the past year. Believe me, I've grown in the past year, and I've learned a lot of things about myself in the past year. Being in prison, going through a kind of hell, matures a person, and I think it's done good things for me. My only misgiving is that I might never be in a position to apply it, you know, on the streets where I'd like to apply it.
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do you ever think when you're in that cell about the possibility that you could one day face a firing squad they don't have firing squads in colorado and i don't think that in any event that i ever think i don't think about it honest to god now and i've been asked that question before and i'm going to give you pat answer if you don't mind when you did you fly over here from Yes.
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Did it worry you all the way over that you might be killed in a plane crash? No. Are you thinking about it now, going back? Same here. I think I stand about as much chance of dying in front of a firing squad or in a gas chamber as you do being killed in a plane flight home. Let's hope you don't. So you don't lie awake at night thinking about it? Not a moment. Honest to God, not a moment.
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Anyway, I was just wondering, I know you're really at arm's length on this thing, and, you know, we haven't really... know taught personally obviously since the latter part of january yeah right impressions about all that you've been hearing about the me and and okay how do you mean well like the escape and everything I wonder what your impression of that was.
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Because it's not going to happen. Are you going to be a free man? Do you think that about being a free man? Sure. Yeah.
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The Bundy Tapes
And you think when I say there is circumstantial evidence that I'm in left field, there isn't circumstantial evidence?
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I know there isn't. You're dealing on the outside, I'm on the inside. I mean, you have access to information, but I'm on the inside. I know what's there and I know what isn't there. I've seen the files and I've heard the reports. And Lord knows I'm the first and foremost person who has the personal intimate knowledge that it couldn't be me, that it's not me, that I'm innocent.
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Dealing from that on out, I know exactly what's what. And when you tell me the circumstantial evidence, I'm not going to argue with you, Lucky. It's just, let's just wait and let's just let it come out in court. Let's let it be examined in open court. And I'll lay my money on me. That's the way I feel. Do you think about getting out of here? Well, legally, sure.
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With the rumors that have gone on about you, and you're more aware of them than I am, how have you been treated in prison by other inmates?
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The Bundy Tapes
Well, I think you may... Has it made your life more difficult or more dangerous being in prison? I think you may be more aware of the rumors than I am. For this reason, I have heard a lot of talk, and there might be an inmate ex who says, you know, Bundy's this and that kind of person.
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But you know, when I'm confronted person to person by these people, or by people in general, I have never, I have never been accused, I have never been assaulted, I have never been verbally abused. And the reason is because I hold my head high, I believe in myself, and I treat every man with the respect that he deserves. And that's the way you get along in prison.
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One of the many ways you get along in the joint is that you treat a man with respect, that you don't try to hustle somebody, that you come across straight to him. One of the first things you learn is that if you're a straight con and you keep your mouth shut and you keep tight with good people, you're going to stay out of trouble. And it doesn't make any difference what you've done.
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What happens if you're in prison five years and nothing like what has happened in the past happens again?
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I mean, any of the things that you have been accused of by innuendo, by rumor, by the police departments or whatever, what if there are no killings or no kidnappings? It's already happened, hasn't it?
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I've heard some reports. I remember the incidents between 5 and 8, which are similar to the ones which the police have had the nerve to try to associate with me. It's going to continue to happen in Salt Lake and Utah until those police start to wise up and stop counting their chickens before they hatch.
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I think it's a terribly dangerous mentality to try to pin something on somebody who they believe there's a possibility couldn't have done it. And as long as they believe that, they're not going to find the right man. And the man who kidnapped Carol Durant is going to continue to be free.
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And not only her, but every other young woman in the Salt Lake Valley is going to be threatened by that person or persons. And it's happening today and it's going to happen in the future. What do you think about, in your mind, what do you conjure up about the man that they're after or the real man who did these things? Man or man, persons, persons, I don't know.
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I really have, I can't even begin to understand the mentality. I don't understand the motivation. Okay. Do you ever feel like you'd like to escape? Let me preface any answer to that remark by giving my feeling about jails. Somebody asked me, that question's been asked me before, I mean, would you want to escape? Have you ever planned to escape?
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And if my attorney was here, he'd say, I object, Your Honor. Mr. Bundy is being asked a question, an attempt is being made to ask Mr. Bundy to incriminate himself. But let me try to get my way out of that one. The Utah State Prison, as you know, is surrounded by several barbed wire fences and has many, many guards and towers. And they've got dogs that run around there.
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And they've got bars in the cells. And they've got count procedures. And what do you think that's all for? That's to keep the men in there. Now, does anyone think that if they took those fences down, and took those dogs away and those guns away, all those guys would stay? Sure they'd go.
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The very reason for prison, the very assumption of all those bars and all that barbed wire is that if it's not there, those guys are going to leave. And I swear to God, every man in that prison at one time or another thinks about going, wishes he wasn't there, and wishes he could fly over those fences. I've dreamed about flying over those fences.
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Just, again, just from a part of you who knows me but who didn't have an opportunity to speak to me either just before or after that happened.
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I've dreamed about climbing over those fences and tunneling under those fences. With every other man in there, I've dreamed about being free. Because I don't like my liberty being taken away and no man does. Some men in the Utah State Prison become institutionalized because they've been so brutalized over the years they don't want to think about the outside.
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But most every man when he first goes in there dreams and thinks and conjures up all kinds of ideas of freedom. But the real difference, the real measure of a man in prison as far as escape goes is the difference between hitting that fence and not hitting that fence. between getting shot at and not getting shot at, and having the guts to do it and not having the guts to do it.
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You might be able to open those gates at the Utah State Prison, and 80% of the guys wouldn't leave. They'd be afraid to get back out into society. They'd be afraid of being shot or getting another beef put on them. But some would. All I'm saying is, I'm no fool. I don't like being locked up, and I don't think any man does.
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You talk about getting out. Do you ever worry about what some of the parents of some of these women who think you are guilty, that they might come after you?
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Yeah, right. Yeah, this is something that'd be fun to sit down and chat with you about an hour. Yeah. And, uh... Uh... I had mixed impressions. I was wondering if you were really getting uptight and the pressure looked like it was on, you know? And I was wondering if it was, uh... getting looked like in your mind that you were going to be convicted.
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I don't worry about it. There are crazy people anywhere. I've been told that the parents of these that these girls are fairly decent people. I don't know. And I really feel for them because apparently they've suffered an incredible tragedy in their lives. The loss of a loved one is probably the most extreme kind of loss you can suffer in this life.
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And I feel as much for them as anybody can, not having gone through that myself. But as far as worrying about that, hey, if someone's crazy enough and nutty enough to do something like that, I can't stop them. There's nothing I can do. You are not guilty. I'm not guilty. Does that include the time I stole a comic book when I was five years old?
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I'm not guilty of the charges which have been filed against me. And the allegations. And the allegations. And the rumors. I don't know all of what she's speaking about, Lucky. It's too broad, and I can't get into it in any detail. But I'm satisfied with my... blanket statement that I'm innocent. No man is truly innocent.
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I mean, we all have transgressed in some way in our lives, and as I say, I've been impolite, and there are things I regret having done in my life, but nothing like the things I think that you're referring to.
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Yeah, I know more about it. My class is graduating in about a month. In law school? I bet you I know more about law than any of them. That pisses me off. Now that does piss me off.
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The trial of a man accused of killing two girls in a sorority house in Tallahassee, Florida, is having a difficult time getting underway. Ike Siemens is covering this case.
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33-year-old Theodore Bundy is charged with beating and strangling two Florida State University sorority sisters and attempting to kill another woman student in January 1978. His trial was transferred to Miami after Judge Edward Cowart found that choosing an impartial jury in Tallahassee would be difficult. Selection of the 12-person jury began yesterday in Miami.
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Unlike most murder trials, this one will feature the defendant helping four public defenders in cross-examining witnesses. Bundy, a former law student at the University of Utah, has already complained to the judge that his jail cell is not adequate for his legal research. The judge ordered the jail to change that.
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Inside the courtroom, the trial will be covered by a still photographer and one television camera. Upstairs, there are some 250 reporters and television technicians from around the country. They will be following the trial and making videotaped recordings of it. The Bundy trial is expected to last more than a month, according to the judge.
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Before the trial begins, Bundy's lawyers will ask the judge to throw out two key pieces of pretrial testimony. One is from a woman student. She says she saw the man who ran from the sorority house on the night of the murder. Another is from a dental expert. He says that the teeth marks found on the buttocks of one of the victims could only have been made by Theodore Bundy.
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So when the opportunity was there and you just took it, believe, you know, I'd like to have been able to sit down with you before and after to see, you know, just to see what was happening. Yeah. What, uh, you know, in your own mind, what was, what was happening? What was the reason for it? You know,
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In Miami, Judge Edward Cowart is expected to rule today on two defense motions in the trial of Theodore Bundy. He's accused of murdering two co-eds at Florida State University. The judge heard testimony on one of those motions yesterday. Here are details from Mark Potter of station WCKT.
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Bundy took the witness stand wearing a sport coat and a Seattle Mariners t-shirt.
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He was questioned by one of his attorneys during a pre-trial hearing outside the presence of the jury. Bundy is acting as part of his own defense team and is trying to prevent evidence seized during a 1975 arrest in Granger, Utah from being used in his murder trial in Miami.
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He claims that a pair of handcuffs and a pantyhose mask were taken from his car by patrolmen who did not tell him he could refuse such a search. He also claimed that a patrolman threatened him.
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And the officer, Hayward, had left his car and approached me. And the first thing he said to me was, why didn't you get out of your car and run? I could have taken your head off.
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Judge Edward Cowart has not yet ruled on Bundy's request to suppress the evidence. He also has not ruled on a defense motion to bar the testimony of Nita Neary, a one-time Florida State University co-ed who was the prosecution's main witness. Neary says she is positive she saw Bundy leaving the Cayamaga sorority house carrying a club the night two co-eds were brutally murdered there.
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Would you please state your full name and address? after you'd been stopped by Trooper Hayward. Approximately what time did you leave? Well, it's either the 15th or the 16th. Is there any question about that? It's not. All right. Long as we're not hung with one on one day and one on another, that's the only thing the court would worry about.
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We're talking about one single incident, either August the 15th or August the 16th. Is that correct, gentlemen? After you had been stopped, did Officer Hayward say anything to you?
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Well, after the stop had occurred, I exited my car, and the officer, Hayward, had left his car and approached me, and the first thing he said to me was, why didn't you get out of your car and run?
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I think he asked me a number of questions which intervened the request for a driver's license, and I think he asked me, after his first comment, what I was doing in his neighborhood, to which I did not initially make a response. And then he asked me for my driver's license, which I got from the inside of my car.
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I'd given it a great deal of thought. I'd been moved from Aspen, been in the Aspen, the Pitkin County Jail, which is in Aspen, from January 31st until April the 11th, which is 73 days. I have all this memorized, you know. And in Aspen, I was an open affair. The jail is very small. It's 24, 5, 6, 7 cells, and...
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After I gave the officer my driver's license, he went back to his vehicle, as I recall, and leaned in and pulled out the microphone that they use for the radios and came back to me and told me to go stand by his car, which was approximately 10 feet in back of my car. He told me to wait there, and there was an officer, another state patrolman, who was already on the scene.
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And he told me to stay with the officer. He told the officer to keep an eye on me.
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Let me back up a little bit. Was Officer Hayward in uniform? Yes, he was. Was he carrying a weapon? Yes, he was. Was the additional officer who had come to the scene, was he in uniform? Yes. Was he carrying a weapon? Yes. How many officers arrived at the scene?
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Well, they arrived and they left. I'd say that at any one time there were, the most that were on the scene at any one time, approximately half a dozen. All in uniform? All except for Detective Ondrak, who arrived later, who was in plain clothes.
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Sergeant Hayward's initial reaction, after he told me to stand by his car, he proceeded to my car and walking, he began to walk around it shining his flashlight through the windows and peering in through the windows. The officer that I was standing with next to the patrol car began asking me questions, asking me what I was doing in the neighborhood, why I was there.
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As I was standing by the car, watching him and listening to the officer next to me ask me questions, I watched him walk around the car and shine his flashlight in the car. He apparently was focusing on something inside the car for some time, which seemed like some time.
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He opened the car door. entered the car, and I couldn't see what he was doing. He came back to me and then repeated his earlier questions about what I was doing in his neighborhood, why I was there, and then, as I recall, he went to make another call on his police radio.
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And the words, whether or not they asked me if they could look at my car is something I don't recall or construed as a request to search my car.
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uh you know and all the doors are open all the time the place has been built in 1887 but it was just you know here is where i could come out we could relate to talk to other prisoners go in their cell you know something like at the state prison not like me in the main line and then they moved me down here this is part of the escape because i was a security risk and they put me in a 6 by 12 by 8 foot high cell and ordered no one to speak to me
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After Sergeant Hayward had searched my car and called in another officer to come in, and after my car had been thoroughly searched by the other officers, Detective Ondrak approached me at that time and informed me that he was going to seize certain items from my car and told me that he was going to attempt to get a warrant or a complaint or something of that type.
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against me for possession of burglary tools. At that point, Sergeant Hayward or another officer, I'm not sure, searched me for the first time, handcuffed me, put me in his vehicle, read me the rights off a little card he carried on his console, and drove me downtown to the Salt Lake County Jail.
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And the experience of coming over here is one of those, you know, those good things, bad things. I wouldn't, you know, if I hadn't come over here, I probably wouldn't be looking at a new trial in the Carol Durange case. Yeah. And a whole bunch of, a whole number of things have opened up.
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I mean, it's not that I was quaking in my shoes. I felt that I couldn't stop them from doing what they were doing, that they were going to go ahead and do it no matter what I did. They were intent. The questions from Sergeant Hayward and the other officers at the scene indicated that They believed that I was involved in some sort of activity, and they were hostile about it.
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The questions seemed hostile to me, indicated to me that they were going to do damn well what they pleased, and I did not... You didn't see any point? There was no point.
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I didn't see how the heck I could stop a half a dozen uniformed armed officers from searching my car.
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I think that about covers it. I have no further questions. Mr. McKay? Thank you, Judge. Just a couple of things. That's not the first thing you told Hayward, though, when he asked you what you were doing in the neighborhood, did you? What? Excuse me? He asked you what you were doing in the neighborhood, and you didn't tell him right off what you were doing in the neighborhood, did you?
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I understand. What was that response? As I recall, the response, I don't know when it occurred... was that I had been in the neighborhood drive-in movie.
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I said my response to him was that I had been in the vicinity at a drive-in movie.
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And you followed that up. Let me see if I understand your testimony correctly. You followed that up with another story, didn't you? Yeah, but restate the question. Well, did you tell Hayward anything else after you told him that you'd been at the drive-in movie? You do recall your testimony during the courtroom proceedings in Utah, do you?
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I'm not sure what you're referring to. I mean, really, it's a broad question. If you try to be more specific, I can help you out. Do you recall your testimony in Utah? I recall testifying in Utah.
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Do you recall the testimony? Judge, does that have to be talked about by either the officers at this hearing or by the testimony of the judge? You don't cross-examination any of the things. We've got a direct pinpointed question of issue of fact. The court has to. And that's, I think, a valid question. Overruled, you may proceed. Do you need me to freshen up your memory a little bit, Mr. Bunyan?
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And quite frankly, that's when I decided to represent myself. At least I got to, you know, get out to go to the library, you know. There's only situations where, you know, concrete, solid steel door with a little window and the food slot. I mean, this was worse than the hole. Honestly, Al, this was worse than the hole. Yeah. In Max, because there you can at least talk to people and see people.
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I think if you could be asking the question again, I'm not sure if you're asking, but I can try. I'm asking you on kind of an initial question, and I don't mean to be confusing. Do you recall your testimony in Utah? If you don't, say so, and I'll try to refresh you.
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Well, if you can give me a specific question, I don't think it would be difficult for me to sit here and quote you verbatim what my testimony was in Utah.
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I understand. I can appreciate that. Let me see if this refreshes your mind. Do you recall testifying in Utah? that on the evening in question you were eating dinner and watching television until 12 midnight or 12.30, which time you decided to visit a friend.
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That upon arriving at that friend's house, you noticed the lights were out, you decided not to waken her up, and you proceeded to drive around for a while. You ended up in the Granger area where you decided to smoke some dope.
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You're on now. Excuse me, but if he's going to ask me a question, I will object to the summarization of the entire line of questioning.
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If I've sufficiently refreshed your memory, say so, and I'll stop. You want to tell us about that testimony? Do you recall that, mister? Do I recall the testimony? You apparently do.
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You just told the court there was lengthy questions and answers about that one. All I'm saying is that I don't recall the testimony specifically, but I can say that in general that I can associate what you're saying with the trial in Utah. Okay.
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Specifically, do you recall telling the court in Utah that you fled from the officer in order to get the smoke out of your car? Isn't it a fact that you've done all of the research on this particular motion?
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Yes, such as it is. Yes, I have. Have you found some cases on the point?
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I've found too many cases. And the point we're talking about is consent to search, isn't it? That's one of the points we're talking about. actual basis would need to be for a consent search to be thrown out?
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Yes, I'm familiar with it. I am now. I wasn't then. That hasn't colored your testimony a bit. I think you'll find, well, no it hasn't, and I think you'll find if
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And it's worse than Max because they never let, they have to exercise except for the six days I was out on an escape since the 11th of April. So this was building up and building up and building up. And over the months, I'd noticed a number of opportunities to just walk right out. Walk right out, but I didn't know quite how to put it all together.
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I feel like I need to call Officer Hayward just briefly, Judge. All right. Officer Hayward. Sergeant, I guess he is now. Your Honor, do you need me to swear this witness? No, sir. Step out of the witness stand, sir, and be seated.
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I approve this one, Sergeant. The oath is still out. All you may proceed, Mr. President.
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Thank you, Judge. Sergeant, are you familiar with the smell, the odor of marijuana? Yes, sir. How long have you had some experience in this odor?
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I had three years just prior to this date of alcohol and drug enforcement, drug drivers in the state of Utah.
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During the time you were in Mr. Bundy's car on this particular evening, at any time, did you smell the odor of marijuana?
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At any point during your search in the car or around the car, trunk, engine, whatever, did you find any substance that resembled marijuana?
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At any time during your chase of Mr. Bunyan, did you see anything thrown out of the car? No, I did not. for this one. This is a... Just asking if that's the full report and if it's accurate or not.
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Sergeant Hayward, I'm showing you a document list marked as defendant's closed exhibit A1 identification. I ask you to identify that, please.
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That appears to be... Appears to be what? The same document I have here, full document.
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The stop that occurred on August the 16th, 1978? Yes. Who had offered this and the evidence?
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We received without objection Do they have any other rebuttal? No, sir. Motion's closed. Gentlemen, I'm going to take argument on both of the motions to suppress. John, I'm not prepared to argue the law beyond generalities.
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I have a great deal of case material. As I say, I have not had access to library to streamline it, as it were. I would be willing to make a general argument, but we reserve the right to submit to the court a memorandum
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All right. I'm going to rule on both of them until in the morning anyway. I want to hear the argument on both of them this afternoon. There's no more hearing testimony. How about Pecano and Zion? Do that during trial if you want to, Judge. I thought we had reserved that for during the trial. This is all the testimony to be taken on a motion.
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Well, we've got some William Rule questions, but they primarily will be not witness testimony, as I understand. You do have some short testimony. Well, let's take these two motions to suppress in that order. Are there arguments on them now? Judge, would we give you a chance to give Mr. Haggard?
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As you say, I was very concerned about what people would think. And I didn't, you know, people would say, weren't you afraid that someone would shoot you or something? No, it was one of the lower fears in my...
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Yes, I think you should, and we're going to proceed now with the argument on the Granger, and Mr. Bundy, you may proceed. Thank you.
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Your Honor, there's a lot of cases in that box, and they all deal with consent search issues.
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Yes, sir. I'm sure that there's probably that many more that you've missed.
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And I've missed quite a few. We're only dealing with a couple jurisdictions. As I said, I'm going to argue the law broadly because I haven't had an opportunity to
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to complete my research on the status of Florida law, although I'm familiar with the parameters of the consent search issue as they exist here in Florida and those as outlined by the United States Supreme Court and other federal courts.
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Well, we've really basically set the stage. I'm sure you've read left to mighty. Yes, sir. Let's proceed with that, and we'll go from there. You're not going to be far wrong from Florida law.
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Well, I think the, before I refer to the Bustamante case, I think it's important that the court be put in a position of determining whether it's Florida law that applies or the law of the search, the state with a search criminal.
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The conflict should be resolved in the manner of adopting the law of the foreign state of Florida to determine whether a consent in the search that we've heard testimony in today was freely, voluntarily, and knowingly given.
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Well, you've got more of a basic threshold. This court would have to take into consideration the rulings of the Spring Court of Utah, Mr. Bundy, as far as the concept is concerned. And the only collateral attack, or something in the nature of the collateral attack, would be a federal argument. As this court conceives the law, I think the state
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higher years yeah but I don't know that day I came there and I thought a great deal about escape and I didn't know if I had the guts to do it quite frankly and the guard went outside for a smoke and there's not a one person in the whole courtroom you think you'll have to you'd have to see the courthouse and the windows are open and the fresh air is blowing through and the sky was blue and
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Constitution, if you're well aware of, concerning full faith and credit and finality of the arguments as it relates to seizure of the goods under the forum of where they're seized. This Court would consider that the only possible collateral approach would be on the basis of some additional federal requirement maybe not brought to the attention of the Utah Court.
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However, so that the record is patently clear, I'm going to proceed with the concept that both arguments, or all three arguments, are in fact open. And I'm not going to close you out on that. Brevity has never been the keynote of this trial and probably never will be. So I'll hear whatever you have to say.
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They're directly involved in the search, which did not come to the attention, or I would tell the court that these issues did not come to the attention of the Florida Supreme Court, or the Utah Supreme Court. However, I understand that the court has read the Supreme Court's Chief Justice Ellett. Chief Justice Ellett did not find that the search ruled on by the trial court was legal.
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The legal finding of Chief Justice Ellett in State v. Bundy was that there was evidence sufficient to justify the judgment of seizure and certain the search and seizure issue involved in the utah case i think what we have here is simply a badly written opinion and one which is self-evident relies on virtually no case law and a very highly complicated appeal and so i will say only
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in determining the legality or illegality of the search that occurred and is the subject of this motion. Let me go to the Bustamante case because it's so often referred to and because it's so important in consent search cases.
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The jury could have recommended either death or life in prison for Theodore Bundy. His mother pleaded to save him.
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My Christian upbringing tells me that to take another's life under any circumstances is wrong. And I don't believe the state of Florida is above the laws of God. Take can be very useful in many ways to many people living. Gone from us would be like taking a part of all of us and throwing it away.
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The jury wasn't persuaded. In less than two hours, the same men and women who had convicted him of killing two sorority sisters had this recommendation while an unemotional Theodore Bundy listened.
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We, a majority of the jury at Miami-Dade County, Florida, this 30th day of July, A.D., 1979, recommend that the court impose the sentence of death as authorized by the Florida Statute 775.082, subsection 1, so say the majority, Rudolph E. Tremel Foreman.
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And I said, I'm ready to go. And I walked out the window and jumped out. And I started chugging. And I had no plan. I had nobody helping me. I had no money. I had no nothing. Just ran right up into the mountains. But anyway, you know, when I was captured, recaptured, they brought me back in.
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A judge in Miami today followed the jury's recommendation and sentenced Theodore Bundy to die in the electric chair for the murder of two coeds. Bundy is the 136th person under death sentence in Florida. Ed Rabel reports.
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Before pronouncing the sentence, Judge Edward Cowart let Bundy make a statement.
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I'm not asking for mercy, for I find it somewhat absurd to ask for mercy for something I did not do.
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So I will be tortured for and will suffer for and receive the pain for that act. But I will not share the burden for the guilt.
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In imposing sentence, Judge Cowart cited the savagery of the crimes and what he called the indifference of the defendant.
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This court independent of, but in agreement with, the advisory sentence rendered by the jury that has hereby imposed the death penalty upon the defendant, Theodore Robert Bundy.
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Then, in an unexpected move, perhaps an afterthought, Cowart stunned the courtroom with some parting words for Bundy. Take care of yourself, young man. Thank you.
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I say that to you sincerely. Take care of yourself. It's a tragedy for this court to see such a total waste, I think, of humanity that I've experienced in this court. You're a bright young man. You made a good lawyer. I'd but you went another way, partner.
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The Bundy Tapes
Bundy says he'll appeal. Meanwhile, he has been ordered to the state prison to await setting of the date of his execution in the electric chair. Ed Braybill, CBS News, Miami.
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The Bundy Tapes
I spoke very freely about my adventures during those six days because it was something I really couldn't deny. But So one of the investigators, Bill Wargase, came into the room after I'd been there for some time and said, well, would you like to talk about the Campbell case? Would you like to tell me all about it now, Ted? You know, more or less, would you want to confess and all this stuff?
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Because, I mean, I could see the twinkle in his eyes that, you know, he thought that I panicked and now the jig was up and I was ready to bust open. And I told him, I said, Mike, listen, I jumped out of the window because I want to be free.
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The Bundy Tapes
And I suppose that, you know, if I have to spend several years behind bars, I might as well spend a little here, a little there.
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uh you know two years ago i could have walked out of a courthouse and uh you know no one would charge me with any crime no one would even have noticed i you know as far as i was concerned i was just what belonged to me and it wasn't a fear of conviction it wasn't you know because i believe then that i believe more firmly now and i will be acquitted and and not only that but i'll get a new trial and derange the iran the irony of it all al is probably the only
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offense that they that they will ever get a solid conviction on me will be the escape yeah right but uh you know i told him honest honest to god i i just got sick and tired of being locked up and i thought you know because way back then i knew that i had this new evidence on durant although i hadn't given anybody yet wondering what to do with it and i knew that the case for me here was good that the case they had was weak but i kept saying to myself
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Ted, in the event that you're acquitted here in Colorado, and you go back to Utah, and let's say you get a new trial in Durant, which I estimate would take three years, because even if we win at the trial court level with a new trial, the state will appeal, and if the Supreme Court overturns, we'll have to go to the federal court, and the federal courts take years and years.
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And even if I get a new trial in Durant, three years from... There was a chance I could be convicted just basically on the publicity of the whole thing. I mean, I'm pretty notorious. And if I was acquitted three, four years from now in Durant's case, what would I have left? It may be unrealistically, but I asked myself, could you go to law school? Could you live?
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Would your friends be able to look you in the eye? Could you be Ted Bundy again? I figured, you know, whether you're free tomorrow or whether you're free four years from now, you're still going to have to make an entirely new life and really hide from your old life, whether you would legitimately or illegitimately. So those were the priorities then. And I wasn't up against the wall.
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Are they treating you pretty good? Well, yeah. Yeah, sure they are. That's good. They've developed this paranoia about me. They have this unrealistic fear that I'm going to escape or something. I can't imagine where they're getting that. Yes, exactly. Let's see. I just wanted to call you up. You know, mainly there's a lot of A lot of things have been happening.
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I mean, it was something I could have done then, something I could have waited to do. But it was just, I honestly just fed, you know, way up above my chin with being the,
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being locked up right yeah just one of those things yeah but uh still there's still the scars and the blisters of my feet i'm sitting here barefoot from running around in the mountains extraordinary experience because i i had thought that i was i mean a pretty strong-willed person but you know believe it or not it was the body that was strong but the mind that was weak that the morning after
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Well, I ran up, you know, like 4,000 feet of very steep hills. Actually, Aspen was on the other side. They didn't know where in the world I was. And I was feeling really good that evening, and I started hiking up. And if I had kept on hiking, I would have been long gone. But a very cold sleet and rainstorm hit me, and I got very cold. Then I went into a state of shock and managed to find a cabin.
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And the cabin was just, you know, there was no way to get into it. And here it was shivering and hungry and cold. It was raining and blowing. And early the next morning, like 7 o'clock in the morning, and I was just sitting there, seriously considering giving myself up. And it was just a complete mind blow for me. Yeah. Just longed for freedom for so long.
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And now, like I was living my ultimate dream, all of a sudden I was willing to throw it away because I was cold and hungry. And I said, my Lord. But I got in the cabin and recuperated, believe it or not, and had a second chance at it. And then I made the wrong turn, and then I hurt my knee, and three, four days of high altitude and cold got to me. And again, my mind got weak.
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And it really kind of, again, when I was recaptured, I just stood there. I mean, I was just, that night, I walked back into Aspen. No one knew me. People got me. No one could recognize me. But I just was totally disoriented. It was like an experience I'd never known before. I just laid down like an animal ready to die. It was just an incredible experience.
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The Bundy Tapes
I was disoriented, and quite frankly, I hopped in a car and just drove. I knew I'd get caught. I mean, I didn't want to get caught, but I knew it would happen, but I was just so tired. The best of the alternatives. Yeah, and I just said, well... just to see what happens. And a fluke, actually, they stopped me. But, you know, anyway, that was one of the more profound experiences.
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Certainly did cause a furor. Mm-hmm. And you're spending most of your afternoons in the law library, are you? Oh, yeah.
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I go up there every day for three hours. Huh. And... Imagine you're really learning law. Oh, goodness sakes. Yeah, I'm pretty darn good at the soul process. I won a couple fairly significant victories on Friday. Let's see, I go last Friday in court. And I suppose that I've learned that I've learned what the pitfalls of being one, of representing oneself are, and so I'm going to avoid those.
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But for the time being, I am doing a great, I am doing the, in the case, and the research. And I think we're pretty successful at, I don't know, considering the kinds of resources that are amassed against me and the, you know, the various law enforcement agencies and
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prosecutors who are working on this case uh i think i'm more than holding my own i think i'm giving him fits quite frankly and and i don't it's not just me i mean i'm not here i'm not you know uh i'm not some genius or anything i think but the fact the matter is you know such a rather decrepit case that they're really having a hard time uh putting it together, to say the least.
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And at the preliminary hearing, she looked at me and she looked around the courtroom and picked an undersheriff as the person she had seen.
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So their case kind of collapsed at that point. Oh, yeah. But right now they're, you know, they're hanging in there. I give them credit for that. Yeah. Yeah. So how are things over there? I've always wondered about you and a lot of my friends there and everything. I heard there was a killing not too long ago.
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You know, the escape adventure, which caused a great furor of activity around here, and I guess some publicity over there. And now we're looking at what looks like a 95% chance of a new trial in the Carol Drange case. And while this case over here gets curiouser and curiouser because...
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Not as yet. It's a rather expensive trip. Aspen's an expensive place to stay.
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It's a short question deserving a long answer. I'm doing well. I feel good. Working hard on my case. Need a lot more sun and a lot more Fresh air, but other than that, I'm doing OK.
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Well, I get to go to the library. It's a 50-yard walk from here across the parking lot to the library. That's my fresh air.
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Well, when I was on the main line, as they say, in medium security, I had a lot more freedom, you bet. A big yard to walk in, and a basketball court, and handball court. Your standard medium security life in a prison is a fairly decent existence, relatively speaking, to a county jail. County jails are, by and large, pretty confined and inhibiting sort of places.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At some point, Derek was able to do a timeline of vehicles going through and by, and that was one of the vehicles. Yes, sir. That's all the questions I have. Thank you.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Friese, anything further as its witness? No, Your Honor. Defense may call its next witness.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Please state your full name. My name is Jordan Lamb, but my married name is Jordan Johnson, and it's spelled J-O-R-D-Y-N.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
2018.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In reference to Molly Tibbetts, what year were you?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was a year below her in school.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What about Dalton Jack?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He was two years older than me.
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Now, you previously dated Dalton Jack a long time ago, is that right? Yes, that's correct. You're not here out of the goodness of your heart, are you?
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No, I was subpoenaed.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You received a subpoena from our office probably about two weeks ago, is that right? Yes. Before that subpoena was served, had you had any recent contact with Dalton Jack?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, he would text me or call me every once in a while. And the nature of the texting or calling would be? Just to ask how I was doing. He knew that I was pregnant and had a baby. All right.
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This is hearsay. Dalton Jacks testified. This is not impeachment. It's not. This is hearsay. It's the effect on the listeners, a non-hearsay purpose, Your Honor. They're offering it for its truth, clearly.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Most recently has Dalton Jack contacted you?
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Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did he contact you specifically in reference to your testimony in this case? Yes. When is the most recent time that Mr. Jack has contacted you?
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It was either Monday night or Tuesday night.
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Was that this week? Yes. So it would have been either a day or two ago, is that correct? Correct. Did he contact you specifically about your testimony in court?
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He asked if I testified.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, you haven't been involved in this case at all since Molly Tibbetts was missing, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Have you been contacted by anybody in the last couple of years? No. Would it be fair to say that you were surprised that you got a subpoena?
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Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At one point though, and I believe it was on July 31st of 2018, you were approached by investigators, is that correct? Yes. They asked to meet with you, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And they asked you a lot of different questions, is that correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you cooperative? Yes. Were you willing to help out with anything to get Molly located? Yes. One thing they asked you about is whether Dalton Jack had initiated a relationship with you, is that right?
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Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you did provide them with messages from March of 2018, is that correct? Yes. Describe the nature of those messages.
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He was just asking if I would give him another chance.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And there were several messages back and forth, is that right? Yes. Would you describe those messages as him pursuing you to be back in a relationship? Objection, Judge.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Calls for speculation.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
My name is Matthew George. And sir, how are you employed? I'm an agent with the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation. How long have you held that position? I've been with the DCI for just under 26 years.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's also not relevant. Sustained.
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Did he ask you to get back in a relationship with you?
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Objection. Calls for hearsay.
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It's not hearsay, Judge.
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Overruled. The witness may answer if she knows.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I think there was one point in the messages where he said that he would get back together with me.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objections overruled. Witness may answer if he knows.
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Were you under the impression that he was no longer in a relationship with Molly Tibbetts? Objections.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Call for hearsay.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled. Witness may answer if she knows.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There was a message that said that he would break up with her if I would give her a chance.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And based on that, were you under the impression that they were no longer in a relationship? Yes. Now, did you ever initiate a relationship back with Dalton Jack?
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No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the timeline leading up to the disappearance. My recollection is that Dalton was working with a work crew and he was up there, as I recall, on the 17th of July. and eventually came back to the Poweshiek County area, I believe he said on the 19th.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you finally just quit responding to his messages?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At a later point, did you reach out to Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And was that in April of 2018? Yes, I believe so. And did you share those messages with Ms. Tibbetts?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Describe her reaction to you. You've just shared messages that her boyfriend is initiated in a relationship with you. Is that right? Yes. Describe how she acted towards you.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't remember what she said or how her appearance was with that. Did she use any derogatory terms towards you? I don't remember.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was she kind to you? I think so, yes. No further questions. Thank you.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brown? No questions. Thank you. Defense may call its next witness.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Defense calls Christian Bahena-Rivera. Please state your full name. Christian Bahena-Rivera. You're here illegally, is that right? Are you careful to avoid contact with law enforcement? Very careful. Do you try not to drive around often? Only when it's necessary. Do you take back roads when you're able to? Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When you talked to law enforcement when they brought you in from the dairy farm, approximately what time did you go to the sheriff's office?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Between 2 and 3 in the afternoon.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What time did you go to work that day?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
4.30 in the morning.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you remember when law enforcement showed up at Yarrabee Farms?
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Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what do you remember?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was working and my boss came to the area where I was and he told me that we were needed in the office and there was probably going to be troubles for me. What did you think those troubles were? At that time, I didn't know.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you know what a raid is?
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When immigration comes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Have you heard of immigration coming and kind of rounding up illegal Hispanic?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you afraid that that was what was going to happen here?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
For a moment, yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now at some point in time you agreed to go to the sheriff's office, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you were interrogated for 11 plus hours, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you tell law enforcement the truth that night? Not all. Molly Tibbetts was in the trunk of your car, isn't that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you did not tell them what really happened, isn't that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Let's talk about what happened that night. On July 18th, 2018, you got home from work, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When you got home, is there anything that you planned to prepare for the next day?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What is that?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I had planned to clean out my car because the next day I was planning on going out with a girl.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you had a date lined up?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you get home, do you shower?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No. I went to my uncle's house to ask him for a vacuum cleaner to clean my car.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Where does your uncle live?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Brooklyn.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you end up going to your uncle's and speaking with him?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, he wasn't at home.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you go ahead and take the vacuum?
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Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he tell you he was working there on July 16th, the Monday?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's something that wouldn't bother him from prior dealings, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, and in fact, I called him to tell him that I had taken it.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you get the vacuum and then where do you go?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To my house.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When you get to your house, what do you do?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I realized that the sun was still very strong, it was too strong to clean my car, so I decided to go in and take a shower.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Approximately what time did you take a shower at your home?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
About 6, 6.30.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
After you took a shower, what did you do?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I left the bathroom.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What did you see?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Two people in my living room.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Those two people in your living room, how were they dressed?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'd have to look at my... Hang on. We object to going blow by blow through the interview. It's hearsay. The only purpose this witness could be used is for impeachment purposes. This is not proper. It's hearsay. We would object. Question asked for a yes or no answer.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
With sweaters and their faces covered.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Describe the color of the clothing that they were wearing.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was dark clothing.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can you describe what the build of either of these people?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One of them was bigger and a little bit fatter, and one of them was about my stature and a little bit stronger, burly.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did those men have any sort of weapons?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Describe which man had which weapon.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The bigger one, I could see that he had a gun, and the smaller one, I could see that he had a knife. Describe the gun. I don't know a lot about guns. I can just say that it was black.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What about the knife?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was a medium-sized knife, camouflaged color.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What did these men say or do?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That I shouldn't do anything stupid and everything was going to be okay.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What happened next?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We were there for a long while.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did anything happen while you were there?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, they were just there whispering and we were there for a long while.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At that point in time, were they ever violent towards you or aggressive towards you?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you comply with all of their instructions?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you argue with them?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did anything else happen at the residence?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not until we left the house.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Once you left the house, what happened?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We got into the car.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And when you get into the car, which man gets in which seat?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The bigger one in the back seat and the other one gets in the seat beside me.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The smaller one is the one with the knife, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then did you drive?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When you drove, did they tell you where to go?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They just told me to drive straight.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did they make any comments while you were driving?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, one of them told the other one. One of them said to the other one something about someone running.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, sir, you don't speak much English, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How were you able to tell what they were saying?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, I don't know how to speak a lot of English, but I understand the basics.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And so you were able to understand that's what was said, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Once you get to Brooklyn, what happens?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We just went into town. We went into town by what you could say would be the back way into town.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is there a specific road that you came in on?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you know what that road is?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't know the name of the road.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sir, I'm going to show you State's exhibit Now, sir, you've seen this exhibit before, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And there's a road that is described as 385th Avenue on the screen, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objections overruled with the, again, the understanding that the parameters of the question.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that the road that you followed on your way into Brooklyn?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When you followed that road, did you see anyone?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Jogging.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you know that person at that time?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ever met Molly Tibbetts before?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now do you recognize or believe that person was Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's right.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When she was running, was she running out of town?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You're driving into town, is that correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What happens next?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We just continue driving. And then they asked me to turn around.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When you turned around, were you in town?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What happened next?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Your Honor, I'll have to expand a little bit beyond yes or no.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We went back out through the same way we came in.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Tell me what happened next, sir.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We drove straight on the same route. And then they asked me to turn back.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When you were in town, describe these men and anything that they were doing in the vehicle.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Go ahead.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Just that when we were coming into town, they tried to kneel down, crouch down as much as they could in the seats.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You don't remember the exact route that you drove in Brooklyn, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's my recollection in reviewing the interview report that he was up there on the 17th. I'd have to review the report to see if we talked about the 16th.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But you've seen the surveillance camera from Logan Collins surveillance footage, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you think that likely was your vehicle?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Oh, yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Looks like your vehicle. Would you agree with that?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you remember driving around in that area?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't remember if it was exactly that area, but that's my car.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How many times did you drive by Ms. Tibbetts?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Around three or four.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that was that direction of these men, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Let's talk about the last time that you drove by Ms. Tibbetts.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The last time that we met her, she was on her way back into town.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Specifically, sir, she was running on 385th Street, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sir, I'm going to hand you this laser pointer.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, sir, if you could point to the area that you met Ms. Tibbetts the last time. You cannot see it on the map. Sir, go ahead and get up and point to the general area where you were.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And, Christian, I'm not trying to trick you. I know you said that it's not on the map where you met her the last time. Is that right? Correct. Could you point to the direction of the area outside of the map where you saw her? Now, sir, I'm going to bring up another exhibit. Now, sir, is the place where this woman was running shown on this map?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was it important in your investigation to know his activities on the 17th and 18th and then the 19th as well? Sure. And why is that?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can you point to the area on the exhibit where this woman was? Around... And you can go ahead and sit down, sir. Now, you pointed to an area that was just before the intersection of 385th Avenue and 200th Street. Is that right? Yes. So when you're driving on that road, are you driving towards town or away from town? Leaving town. When you see Ms.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Tibbetts, is she running towards town or away from town? Towards the town. So you meet her head on with your vehicle, is that right? Correct. Does she make any statements or anything like that? No. She doesn't wave or anything like that?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No. What happens next? Well, we continue forward, and when you come to the intersection, the cross, then they ask me to turn back.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the intersection of 385th and 200th Street, is that right? Yes. Did you do that? Yes. Once you did that, did you drive back towards town on 385th Avenue? Yes. What happened next?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We drove for a little bit, and then some meters forward, they asked me to stop. Were you able to see the woman at that time? No. Describe the terrain. Well, it was like a straight road, but there were like some hills to it.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, just trying to figure out where people are, trying to establish alibis of different people.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Let me stop you there. We do need to take a recess at this time. Ms. Fries, you may continue.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So, sir, you're driving back on that road back into town. Is that right? Yes. And at some point before you get back into town, were you directed to stop? Correct. Who told you to stop? The person that was next to me. So the man in the front seat, is that right? Correct. Also the man with the knife? Yes. What happened next?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One of them got out of the car. Which one? The one that was on the front. So the guy with the knife. Correct. What did he do? Well, he just started going forward, towards the town direction. How long was he gone? Around 10 to 12 minutes. The guy in the back, was he doing anything? No, he was only quiet in the back part. Did he seem nervous?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, when the time started going by, he started kind of whispering in the back. Did you hear him say anything? You could hear a lot of things, but I guess what I heard him saying is, come on, Jack.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did Mr. Jack explain that to you, the specific activities of those dates? Yes, he did. Please tell us what you learned. Overruled.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, sir, you've heard Mr. Freese and I at least insinuate that Dalton Jack could have been involved in this. You've heard the trial, correct? Yes. Are you telling this jury that Dalton Jack was one of those people? No. Do you know who either of the people were that were in that car with you? No. No?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What happened next? Well, around like 12 minutes after that person comes back to the car. And when they come back to the car, do they get in? He gets in.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What happens next? They ask me to continue driving. Did you continue to drive into town? Yes. Did you reach town? No. Were you directed to stop at some point? Yes. Can you describe for the jury approximately how far you traveled? Not more than 300 meters. What were you directed to do once you drove 300 meters?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To stop and to hand them my keys. What happened next? Well, first the person that was in front got out of the car, and then the person who was behind. What happened next? I've heard them opening the trunk. What happened next? I just heard a movement in the car and then that the trunk closed. Did the men get back in the vehicle? Yes. What happened next? They asked me to turn around.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you do that? Yes. What did they say next? They asked me to continue driving and to go towards the gravel road. Did you do that? Yes. What happened next? I just remembered to be driving fast.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At some point in time, did you stop? No. So you continued to drive, is that right? Yeah, for several miles.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what happened next? We got to a road that was paved, and they asked me to cross that. And then you continued on Gravel Road? Yes. Do you remember which direction you were going? I don't remember the address. All I know that it was straight. So you continued driving, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Witness may answer.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, he talked about being up in Dubuque, again, I believe on the 17th, working with this work crew on a bridge, the bridge that goes from Dubuque over to Wisconsin. I don't remember exactly what his hours were, but most of the day he would work on the bridge, and then at night he and the other crew members would stay at a local hotel up in Dubuque, and next day kind of repeat same.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct. How long did you continue driving? Perhaps five to eight minutes. At some point in time, did they direct you to pull in somewhere?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We arrived like in front of a White House.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sir, I'm going to bring up States Exhibit 25. Sir, you've seen States Exhibit 25, is that right? Yes. And you generally agree that this was the area that Molly Tibbetts' body was found, is that right? Yes. When you mention a White House, is that what you're talking about in States Exhibit 25? Correct. Tell me what happened next. They asked me there to go back.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you turned in at the house and then you drove back, is that right? Yes. Now, sir, I'm now showing you States Exhibit 28, or excuse me, 26. This is the same area from a different direction, is that right? Yes. When you came back, was there a point in time that you were told to turn? Yes. Where were you told to turn if that's shown on States Exhibit 26? At the entrance of the cornfield.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If you could get up again and show the jury on States Exhibit 26, I'd appreciate it. Now, sir, States Exhibit 27, this shows the entrance of the cornfield that you just pointed to, is that right? Yes. Have you ever been to that location before? No. Did you understand really where you were? No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Once you pull in, what happens next? They only asked me to turn the car off and they start getting off the car. So they get out, is that right? Yes. Did they take your keys? Yes, they took my keys and my phone. What happened next?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Before they leave, one of them tells me not to say anything about what had happened, that they knew Iris and that they knew my daughter, that if I said something, they would take care of them. After that, what happened? They told me just to wait a few minutes and to leave. What happened next? I got out of the car because I didn't have my keys.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, obviously I knew there was something in the trunk.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And why did you think there was something or why did you know there was something in the trunk?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because previously I had felt when they had placed something or put something in the trunk. Did you look in the trunk? Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What did you see?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
A body.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was that the body of Molly Tibbetts? Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At that point in time, did it look like she was alive? Well, at the beginning, I saw like a little bit of movement, but then after, there was no movement. Did she have injuries to her body? I did not look. What did you do next? Well, I stayed there a couple of minutes thinking what to do, and then I decided to take the body out. Why didn't you call the police, sir? Because I was scared.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why were you scared? Well, if I would have called the police, it's something that it wouldn't have been seen good. It wouldn't have been right.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you have any reason to believe that Molly Tibbetts' life could be saved? No. When you picked her up from the trunk, describe her body. It was very heavy. What about any signs of life that you saw to Molly Tibbetts? None. How was she dressed?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When were you asked to assist in the investigation of the disappearance of Molly Tibbetts? I believe I first responded over to Brooklyn, Iowa on about the 23rd of July. And did you assist in the investigation of Molly Tibbitt's disappearance until her body was discovered? Off and on, not constantly. Did you ever interview Dalton Jack? I did. What was the purpose of that interview?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
With sports clothing. What did you do next, sir? The way I could, I picked her up and then I put her in the cornfield. Did you cover her with corn? Yes. Why did you do that? Because I didn't want her to be too exposed to the sun. When you left her, was she clothed? I left her exactly how she was, in the trunk.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was it important to your investigation to Pinpoint what he was doing during the time where Molly Tibbetts would have been abducted. That would be important, although I was not part of that with this investigation. Okay. That was on July 25th, right? Yes. Did you speak to Mr. Jack again on July 26th? Yes, I did. And on July 26th, you spoke to him and said you wanted to interview him again.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And at that time, do you recall her having any shorts on? Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What about her sports bra? Did it cover her chest? Everything. She had everything on. There was only one shoe that was off.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What did you do after you laid her in the corn? I tried to go home. Were you able to figure out how to get home? No. How were you able to find your way home? I looked at my phone. And did you specifically use your phone to find directions? Yes. Now, Molly Tibbetts' phone, Fitbit, and her earbuds were left in your car.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that right? Yeah, they were in the trunk, along with my phone and my keys.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What did you do with Molly Tibbetts' phone, Fitbit, and her headphones or her earbuds? I left it on the side of the road. Now, sir, you didn't tell a soul about this for over a month, is that right? Correct. And if you weren't approached, you would have taken this night with you to the grave. Isn't that right? Most probably. Why didn't you call the police or let investigators know what happened?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because I knew if I did it in any way, I was going to be involved.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And specifically, were you afraid for your ex-girlfriend and your daughter?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained and asked that the question be rephrased, please.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were there any other reasons that you did not call law enforcement? Yes. What were they?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because I remember that they said that if I would say something, they were going to do something to my family, my ex-girlfriend, my daughter.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They used her name, is that right? Correct. Do you know Ulysses Felix? Yes. How do you know Ulysses Felix? It is my ex-girlfriend's cousin. So it would be Iris' cousin, is that right? Yes. Has he been to your home before? Yes. Has he spent the night before? Yes. Now, you're not alleging that Ulysses was in that car, is that right? Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ulysses did spend time with your Hispanic group of people, is that right? Yes. He would attend various functions, is that right? Yes. Did you know his parents? Yes. How did you know them? We worked at the same place. Now, Ulysses also attended Brooklyn School, is that right? Yes. And unlike you, did he seem to have a fair amount of white friends? Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, sir, let's go through this interview. You were interrogated for over 11 hours, is that right? Yes. Describe how the interview progressed through those 11 hours.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, at the beginning, they were asking me common questions like where I was from and in terms of clarifying my routine and all that.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that a fair statement? That's fair. Why did you want to speak to him again on the 27th? Just to get more information, more details.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you recall them telling you that they weren't with immigration? Yes. And when they told you that, did you believe them? For a period of time. Did they continue to be more confrontational with you? Sustained. Tell me how the interview progressed. Well, they started accusing me with things.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What sorts of things did they accuse you with? With a couple of pictures. They said that they have found a woman's hair in my trunk, and that they have found her phone, or pointed my phone, her phone with mine.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So they suggested that they had phone activity that tied your phone and Molly's phone together? Sustained.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Please rephrase.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sir, please make the jury understand what you meant about the evidence that they confronted you with your phone.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That they had information that my telephone and Molly's telephone were traveling together.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did they make any other suggestions that they had specialized technology with reference to your phone?
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No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did they ever suggest to you that what you were saying was not true?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Had you learned additional information that you needed clarification on? I can't specifically remember that as I sit here. It's not uncommon to re-interview people once, twice, even additional times. The interview on the 27th, who was present with you?
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Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How often did they suggest that?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Every so often.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ever believe that things would be better if you told them what they wanted to hear?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was that often?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did they ever use the phrase, help yourself?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what did you take that to mean when they used that phrase?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, that if I helped them, if I told them what they wanted to hear, that they would help me.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did they confront you or did they tell you that often?
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Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At some point, you said that you blacked out. Is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Was that your idea?
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No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They said it first.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Specifically, was there a suggestion made that you might be crazy?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Something like that. Something like that sometimes people can be sick and they can forget things.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, sir, did you intend to tell these men the truth about what really happened that night?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why not?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because in my mind, I had my daughter.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So no matter what happened, you did not plan to tell them what really happened?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
As this interrogation went on, tell me about your alertness.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, I was already tired and I was very sleepy.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now you saw some videotape of you falling asleep during this interrogation, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were those the only times that you fell asleep during the interrogation?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not sure, but there were many times.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At some point in time, the investigators asked you to try to take them to Molly Tibbetts, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you agreed, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why did you agree to do that at that point in time?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, for one, because I was already very tired and I wanted it to stop. And most importantly, because they told me to put myself in the family's position and think of her that if she was my daughter, what would I have done?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you drive out, you don't drive, but you ride out to the body, is that right? Yes. Were you able to provide assistance in finding Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did they seem to have some idea already where she was?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I can't be sure about that.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was there along with an agent with the FBI. Was that interview just a rehashing of... The first interview or were there additional facts that you wanted to explore?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Describe the car ride out there.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, I asked them to go to the highway that's on the way to my trailer to have a point of, well, to get oriented.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did they do that?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And tell me about the trip then to the body.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So I told them to drive straight and not to stop.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What happened next?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We didn't stop until we got to that White House that you can see in the photo. When you got to the White House, what did you do? Well, that's when I realized that that was more or less the place, but that we had gone past it a little bit.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So did you direct them to turn around?
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Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you able to assist them in finding the body?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sir, how tall are you?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
5'7".
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How much do you weigh today or now?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The last time that I was weighed in the jail was 148 pounds.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How much did you weigh when you were arrested for the death of Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
125 pounds.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No further questions.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brown, you may cross-examine.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Bahena, you led officers to Molly Tibbetts' body, is that correct? Yes. You remember your interview with Officer Pamela Romero? Yes. You recall it even here today, is that true? Most of the things. You were not too tired to remember what you and she talked about at the sheriff's office, is that right? What? Could you repeat the question?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were not too tired to remember what you and Pamela Romero talked about at the sheriff's office.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If I'm not too tired now or at that time?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At that time.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, there were some times that I was tired, but obviously if someone's talking to you, you're going to be alert.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were able to understand her questions, correct? Yes. There was no language barrier between the two of you? No, none that I knew of. Did you leave with officers at 4.30 a.m. on August 21st of 2018?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it was your request to go to your residence near Brooklyn, correct? Yes. Whenever you got to your residence near Brooklyn, you were able to take them to the location where Molly Tibbetts was found, is that correct? Yes. Did you remain in the car while officers searched for Molly Tibbetts at the location you took them to? Yes. At one point, the officers came to the car to get you out, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, there were additional facts at that point that I wanted to explore. What were those facts you wanted to explore? On the 27th, we learned that Dalton had had a relationship with another girl. and that had not been previously discussed with me during our first time together. So I wanted to kind of go over, among other things, that part of it.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct. And you went back into the cornfield with the officers, is that right? To the edge of the corn. but there is a area where you could walk where corn wasn't growing. Correct. And you took them to the edge of the corn. Yes. That was some distance off the road, is that correct? Yes. And you couldn't see that location from the edge of the road where you walked to, correct? That's correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And whenever you were standing at the edge of the corn, you pointed in the direction where Molly Tibbetts was located, is that correct? I told them more or less in what direction she would be. After you pointed in that direction, officers found Molly Tibbetts, correct? Some minutes afterwards. Were you still present at the edge of the corn when they found her? No. Were you taken back to the car?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. You agree, Mr. Bahena, that you led officers to Molly Tibbetts on August 21st of 2018? Correct. You own a black Chevy Malibu, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It has a chromed mirror? Yes. Is that a feature that you placed on the car yourself? No. Was that feature on the vehicle when you purchased it? Yes. Your car also had chromed handles?
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Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
100%.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You also agree that Molly Tibbetts was jogging in the area when your car is seen, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I can't say if she was in the area. The only thing I can say is that was my car.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You told Officer Romero that you confronted Molly Tibbetts on 385th, is that correct? Yes. You never mentioned two other men, is that true? Correct. You told Officer Romero that you were angry at Molly Tibbetts, is that true? I think so. You agree that... You saw Molly Tibbetts on 385th, correct? Yes. On July 18th of 2018, correct? Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You also indicated to Officer Romero that Molly Tibbetts became angry with you, is that correct? Correct. That Molly Tibbetts threatened to call the police, is that correct? Correct. You never mentioned two other men to Officer Romero, is that correct? Yes. You claim that you went to a cornfield where Molly Tibbetts' body was placed with two other men. Yes. These men had their faces covered? Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you deem the fact that Dalton had a relationship with another girl a fact that you would want to know?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They were wearing sweaters, you said? It was similar to a sweater. So long sleeves?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And long pants? Yes. And what was covering their face exactly? A type of hat. Like a stocking cap? Something like that. So whenever you get to the cornfield, you're in your vehicle? Yes. There's no other vehicle there? Not that I saw. Whenever you left the cornfield, you left alone? Yes. The other two men that were there, did they just walk back? They ran towards the road.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So they ran towards the road and just disappeared? I didn't see them again. I don't know where they went. So you drove these two men out to the cornfield, correct? How's that? I don't understand. You drove the two men in your Malibu to the cornfield where you dumped Molly Tibbetts, correct? Yes. And you're telling us that you drove back to your home alone? Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, I mean, I thought it was of interest, and certainly I wanted to know if there was anything else that we hadn't discussed or what else was missing. Why would that be something you'd want to know? Well, just in general, you know, during this part of the investigation, we're wanting to get as much information as we can from a person. In this particular instance, from Dalton Jack.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you happened to find your cell phone and the keys in the trunk of the car? Yes. And these two men just disappeared? That's right. Whenever you put Molly Tibbetts into the corn, you concealed her body, is that correct? You could say that. You placed corn stalks over her body, is that right? Yes. And that covered her body so other people could not find her, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She was not completely covered. You knew Molly Tibbetts' location for nearly five weeks, correct? Yes. Before you told anyone in law enforcement, is that right? Yes. The two men that you say you were with, you don't know who they are? That's correct. But you just happen to remember that one of them used the name Jack? Yes. Mr. Bahena, you don't have a problem...
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
with blacking out apparently, is that true? Correct. You remember the details as you've described them here? Yes. Yet you told the officers, specifically Officer Romero, that you blacked out some details with regard to what happened to Molly Tibbetts, correct? Correct. The two men that you say that came to your residence, Did they just walk in?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I wouldn't know what to tell you because at that moment I was taking a shower.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So your claim is that you were taking a shower. When you get done with the shower, these two men are standing in your residence. Yes. And they are covered head to toe so you cannot identify them? Correct. Do you have any idea how they got into your trailer? Through the door. The door was not locked? No. You live in rural Poweshiek County at the time, is that correct? Yes. Near Yarrabee Farms? Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you see any vehicle as to how these two men would have been transported to your residence? Not that I saw. So no car, to your knowledge?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did not see any car outside of my trailer.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why would the two men in your trailer need your help. Did you have any connection to the two men that walked into your trailer that you know of? No. Whenever you're at the Poweshiek County Sheriff's Office being interviewed by Pamela Romero, you're around police officers, correct? Yes. You're in a safe environment, would that be true? You could say that.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The two men that you claim abducted Molly Tibbetts were nowhere near the sheriff's office to your knowledge? Not that I know of. You not only talked to Pamela Romero, you talked to other officers while you were at the sheriff's office, is that right? Correct. You were in a safe place, correct? You could say that.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you failed to mention anything concerning these two men and their involvement with Molly Tibbetts.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, like you said, I was in a safe place when I didn't know where my daughter was. Well, why not?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You could just tell the officers what happened, correct? You could have done that. I could have done that. And you chose not to, correct?
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He and Molly's relationship was relevant to you?
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Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You could have told the officers that you were worried for your daughter, correct? Yes, I did tell them that at the beginning. But worried for your daughter that somebody else might harm them if you told them what you told us here today?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I told them that before giving them any information, I needed to know that my daughter and her mother were safe.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you were assured that they were safe?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They didn't tell me anything.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you press them on that at all? No. You could have had the assistance of law enforcement in protecting the mother of your daughter and your daughter, correct? Maybe. But you chose not to press that, correct? Correct. Mr. Bahena, did you ever have any connection to Dalton Jack? None. You didn't know him or his brother Blake, is that correct? Correct. And you did not know Molly Tibbetts? No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sure. Why? Are they arguing? Are they fighting? Those are the types of things that we would want to know. How did Mr. Jack characterize his relationship with Molly Tibbets? He's indicated that the past two weeks had been fine, had been good. Prior to that, Molly was hurt. Molly was not happy after she found out that he had been talking to this other girl.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you remember... being interviewed by officer or deputy Steve Kibbe. Yes. That occurred in Malcolm on August 16th of 2018. Yes. He talked to you about the disappearance of Molly Tibbetts. Is that right? He just asked me something like that. Molly Tibbetts, that subject matter came up, correct? Yes. At that time, you knew where Molly Tibbetts was located, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You knew what had happened to her, correct? Correct. You knew that she had been abducted, is that right? Yes. You knew that she had been stabbed to death, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At that time, I didn't know how she had died. I just knew that she was dead.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Whenever you put her in the corn, she was bleeding, correct? There was no longer any blood on her. You knew she was dead when you put her in the corn, isn't that right? Yes. You did not tell Steve Kivy any of those facts, correct? Correct. You did not ask him for any protection for your daughter or your daughter's mother, is that right? Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You denied having any knowledge of where Molly Tibbetts was located or what happened to her. Is that right? Yes. Mr. Bahena, whenever you confronted Molly Tibbetts on 385th, you recall that. Is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I never did that.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were on the road on 385th whenever she was running, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, but I never confronted her.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You told the officers that you confronted her, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You told the officers that she was angry with you, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Something like that.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you told the officers, told Officer Romero that she slapped you, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't remember that.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That you're angry at her, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, you could say that.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You said it. Isn't that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't remember, and that's what I cannot answer.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You told Officer Romero that you were angry, isn't that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection asked and answered.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He's not answering it. Overruled, the witness can answer.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, if it's in the video, I said it.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You told the officer, Officer Romero, that you were angry, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection asked and answered.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained. After that, you told Officer Romero that you were driving in your black Chevy Malibu alone?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you remember having earbuds on your lap, isn't that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you remember Molly Tibbetts being in the trunk, correct? Correct. Failed to mention anyone else in the car, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The next thing that you remember, you were at a cornfield on the edge of the cornfield. Do you remember that?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you alone Mr. Bahena took Molly Tibbetts into the corn?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you alone placed corn stalks on her body?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Bahena, you stabbed Molly Tibbetts, isn't that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection, Your Honor. I think Mr. Brown is not clear as to whether he asked about the interview and then he asked about what Mr. Bahena-Rivera did. It needs to be clear.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
However, the weeks leading up to her disappearance, Dalton said that they were doing good again.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'll sustain the objection and ask you to rephrase and be more specific if you would, Mr. Brown. I can do that.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Bahena, we're not talking about the interview, I'm talking about what you did, okay? Are we clear?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You stabbed Molly Tibbetts, isn't that right? No. You're the one that did that, isn't that true?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection asked and answered.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained. You alone took Mollie Tibbetts into the corn, isn't that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The two men that you mentioned didn't help you do that, is that right? Correct. You took Mollie Tibbetts into the corn and placed corn stalks on her body, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And answered and compounded.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brown, for the benefit of the interpreter, I'm going to ask you rephrase the question, and before the witness answers, I'll give the defense an opportunity to lodge their objection. I can do that.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you confronted him about the information with Jordan Lamb? Right, yes. And that was important to get his response for your investigation, right? Right, trying to figure out why we hadn't talked about this earlier. Yes. And what was Mr. Jack's response to that?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You took Molly Tibbetts into the corn alone, correct? Abstent and answered. Sustained. You placed corn stalks on her body, isn't that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you left her there. for nearly five weeks, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Asked and answered. Overruled. Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You never mentioned, Mr. Bahena, that the two men that you claim were with you, that you ever saw them again. Did you? No. Did they ever contact you again? No. These men who you claim killed Molly Tibbetts never contacted you one more time?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And to your knowledge, these two men that you claim did the things that you've described, you have no idea how they had any connection to you?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To your knowledge, Mr. Bahena, has anyone threatened anyone since you took?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection. Vague.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can I finish the question, please?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, you may.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Bahena, has anyone threatened you since you took Molly Tibbetts' body into the corn?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You've had no other contact with these two men that you claim did what you described?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct. Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you remember being asked in the interview by Ms. Romero if you were covering for anyone?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you told her that you were not, is that correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you were given an opportunity in the presence of law enforcement to tell what you've told us here today, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you chose not to do that?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At that moment, I was really scared.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I understand that you may have been scared, but you chose not to tell them, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you remember your interview with Ms. Romero out at the cornfield?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not a lot.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At one point during the interview with her, she presses you for more details. Do you recall that?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection. At this point, counsel is testifying.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained. Do you remember being at the cornfield at the side of the cornfield with Officer Romero?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And she was talking to you, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And she was asking you questions, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were providing her answers. Is that right? Yes. At one point towards the end of that interview, did she ask you for more details?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And your response was, I brought you here.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, I asked him... Again, I'm going to object his hearsay.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't remember. But if it is in the interview, it is true.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You also told her, I did it, didn't I? Do you recall that? The truth, no. You don't remember asking her that question? No. You told her that you could not provide any more details. Is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If it's in the interview, it is true.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I want you to go off what you remember, Mr. Bahena. Okay? Can you do that for me?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, non-hearsay purpose, Your Honor.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, Officer Romero says that the interview in the car lasted like for an hour. But all I remember that she asked me was an interview clarified. What was the reason why you did it?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you told her that you couldn't remember, correct? I'm sorry. Let me stop you there.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Defense may call its next witness.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can we approach, please? Yes. And the objection is hearsay, correct? Correct. Sustained. I'm going to make a record, Your Honor. Why don't you approach again? Members of the jury, we will take a 10-minute recess at this time. Outside the presence of the jury, Mr. George, just to confirm for the record, you're still under oath. Mr. Freeze, you had record you wish to make.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
approach. Members of the jury will be in recess at this time for lunch. Mr. Brown, you may continue with your cross-examination of this witness. Thank you.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Bahena, I want to take you back to the cornfield where Molly Tibbetts was put in the corn, okay? You claim that there were two other men with you at the cornfield. Is that right? Correct. While these men were there, they remained covered, as you've mentioned, is that correct? Yes. So they still had these stocking hats over their faces, is that right? Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Still had a long-sleeved sweater that they were wearing, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And long pants, correct? Correct. These two men that you claim were with you at the cornfield, they did not strike you or punch you, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, they did not.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They did not cut you with a knife?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They did not shoot you with a gun, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They did not even threaten you with a gun, is that correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sometimes they were pointed, but nothing really serious.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You cannot tell us who these men are, correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They left you with your phone, is that correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The phone was in the trunk.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did they take your phone away at some point?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The entire time. I did not have it.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But that's my point, is they left your phone with you in your trunk, correct? Correct. Which you then had access to, correct? Correct. Which means you could have called or texted people, correct? Correct. Other than these two men that you claim were at the cornfield with you, you were the only other person at the cornfield, correct? Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The time that they came to your trailer, did you put that between 6 and 6.30?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I could not tell you with exactitude what the time was. It was between 6 and 7.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What time did you get off work on July 18th of 2018?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Around 5.30.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you would have gone directly home?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then you took a shower whenever you got home?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I went to Brooklyn.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At some point you took a shower, is that correct?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And maybe I had the time wrong, but was that after you had gone to Brooklyn?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it was after you came out of your shower that these two men were, you claimed these two men were present in your trailer?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's all I have, thank you. Ms. Fries, any redirect?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, just briefly. Sir, you've listened to Officer Romero describe the interview that took place, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would you agree with Officer Romero that there are different ways in different parts of Mexico that things are translated? Yes. So people use different terms depending on what area they are from? Yes. There are parts of Officer Romero's testimony that you don't agree with, is that right? Correct. Bottom line, you agree that you lied to investigators that night. Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you recall Officer Romero's testimony where she said that you described Molly Tibbetts as hot? Yes. That was one portion that you specifically took issue with, is that right? Correct. What did you believe was said about Ms. Tibbetts?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled. The witness may answer if he knows.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The word that I used was good looking, not hot.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And if the interpreter could please say the Spanish term that he used.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Interpreter is not sure what the attorney is asking the interpreter to do.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why don't I do this? The Spanish term that was used was guapa. Is that right? Correct. And, sir, what do you take guapa to mean? Pretty. We went through the interview after Officer Romero's testimony. Is that right? Yes. and the term that you used was guapa, is that right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Judge, I want to object.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He's commenting on the testimony of another witness who testified in English.
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Overruled. Correct.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, sir, at a certain point did the interrogation become confrontational? Yes. I'm going to direct your attention to Defendant's Exhibit KK. For identification purposes, could you describe what's portrayed in the picture?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Me sitting in the corner and then Officer Romero and then two other guys.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Your Honor, we wish to make an offer of proof at this point in time of this regarding the objection that was just made, and this will begin the offer of proof. Mr. George. Dalton Jack and you spoke about his relationship with Jordan Lamb, correct? Yes. And what did Mr. Jack tell you regarding his relationship with Jordan Lamb?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
These two other guys, were they present during a portion of the interview? In son. At this part of the interview, did they both come in and interrogate you? Yes. Did Officer Romero also interrogate you? Yes. I'd offer defendants exhibit KK.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I would just object to relevance.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled and defendants exhibit KK is admitted.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, Mr. Bahena-Rivera, we specifically watched this portion earlier this week, is that right? Correct. And you were able to re-watch the interrogation process that was used? Yes. Some of the interrogation is in English, is that right? Yes. Is some of it in Spanish? Yes. Describe for the jury what you recall being said to you during that interview.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The man that is sitting on the chair took my hand and he told me that I was lying. I was lying.
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Then there's a man that's standing up behind him. Do you remember him ever talking? Yes. What do you remember him saying? Sustained. Your Honor, it's not for the truth of the matter asserted.
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State's response? I'm not sure what other reason it would be offered for other than the truth. What is the other reason?
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For the effect on the listener, Judge. And further, the interrogation, the defendant's admissions have been a key part of the state's case. And for the defendant not to be allowed to present the reason that he made those admissions and his state of mind is simply unfair. Okay.
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And this picture's not needed for that.
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Take the picture down, and the objection's overruled. Go ahead and proceed.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What did the man say to you that was standing up?
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A word in English, but I don't remember. I don't know how to say it. Describe his tone of voice. He was yelling.
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No further questions.
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Mr. Brown, anything else to this witness?
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Yeah, Mr. Bahena, a question. You agree you're the only one who could take the police to the body of Molly Tippetts?
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Yes.
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That's all.
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Are we done with this witness?
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Yes. State your full name. It's Jamie Lee Slife. Do you recall in July of 2018 when there were stories about Molly Tibbetts missing?
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Yes.
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Benton County being close in relation, it was nationwide news.
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It was all over the news, yep.
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And did you pay attention to that, those news coverages?
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I did.
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At that point in time, did you make some tips or some phone calls into the tip line? I did. And what was your understanding of the tip line in reference to Molly Tibbetts?
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Well, just all over the news, they just kept saying that if you have any tips to just call in. No tips were too big or too small just to call.
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And based on your experience, you decided to call in a tip a couple different times. Is that right? That is correct. Who is your father? Ron Pexa. And Ron Pexa, how has he historically been employed?
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He told me that some time ago, I don't remember if it was A number of months or years, he had had a sexual relationship with her, I believe, one time.
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Historically, he has been in law enforcement. He also worked as an accident investigator for the DOT when I was a kid growing up.
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You had concerns that your father lived in the Poweshiek County area. Is that right? Yes. And based on those concerns, did you report tips to the tip line? I did. How many different times did you call the tip line?
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I first called the tip line just a few days after she went missing. After that, it was probably a couple weeks into it. When it kind of got closer to his area, I thought, I should probably call again. I'm sure they've been flooded with tips, and I just felt like I needed to call again. And then again...
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I ended up calling the sheriff's department there in Powysheet to leave a message just because I felt like it was the right thing to do. It just kept eating at me that I needed to call.
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So there were three different times that you called. Is that right? Yes. Why did you call?
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My dad has sexually abused him.
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I'm going to object to this. Can we approach?
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Ms. Freeze, back to you. You can go ahead and why don't you rephrase that or repeat your question, rephrase it, complete it. I'm not sure where we are, but you're up with a question.
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Ms. Slife, I know this is difficult for you, but why did you make those calls regarding your father?
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Because I know the type of man he is. He sexually abused me and my sisters. He used to threaten to kill us.
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Judge, these threats, the statements have nothing to do with this case. This is completely irrelevant. I have DHS records that document.
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Hold on, hold on, hold on. Objection's overruled. Go ahead and finish your answer.
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I guess I would just like to say that I'm here just to state the fact. And the facts are that I have documents of the abuse. of severe trauma that was committed by my dad on set. And so based on the man that I know him to be, I felt the right thing to do was to call the tip line.
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And then fast forward to more recent times, around the time of Molly's disappearance, maybe months leading up to that, they were engaged in sexting conversations to where she would send him pictures and they would talk sexually over the phone, things of that nature.
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And when, again, just based on the media, then now searching in his area, I felt the need to call again because I did not know if I had been heard, if my tip had been taken seriously.
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Now, you said that you were a sexual abuse victim of your father, is that right? Yes. And I understand you don't want to bring your family into this, but you also said that your sisters were sexual abuse victims of your father, is that right? Yes, and it was founded by DHS. You also said that your mother was victimized somehow by Mr. Pexa. Is that right?
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Yes, he was very violent. He would pull guns on us. He threw knives at my mom.
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Did Mr. Pexa ever make threats to kill you or your sisters? Yes.
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What relevance does this have? This is completely irrelevant as it relates to this particular young woman.
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I got about five more minutes. I'm not planning on taking the rest of the day.
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I'm going to overrule the objection, but I'm going to hold you to that promise, and let's get to where we're going.
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Based on that information... Did you continue to try to make your concerns known? Yes. And your father lives in a specific area in Poweshiek County, is that right? Yes. Did you pay attention to this investigation? Yeah, well, yeah, I think the whole country did. At some point in time, did the search area contain an area that was close to where your father lived? Yes.
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Trying to get information from him about Molly, their relationship. The first interview of Dalton Jack, do you recall when it occurred? Yes. When was that? I believe that was on July 25th. And what time of day did that occur?
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In fact, his home was right in that area. Is that right? That is correct. Did you make another call at that point in time? That is when I called the Sheriff's Department. Now, Ms. Slife, did you ever get any feedback or any phone calls from law enforcement? No. At some point in time, a body was located. Is that right? Is that a yes? Yes, I'm sorry.
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Where was that body located in reference to your father's home?
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Right next to his property. No further questions.
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Mr. Brown, you may cross-examine. Ron Pexa is your father?
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Yes.
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Is this the same Ron Pexa who was a basketball player?
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Yes, for Washington High School in Missouri.
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He played for Missouri, correct? Yes.
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I'm sorry, yes.
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He's a tall guy, right?
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Yes, he's 6'7".
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, is he actually taller than that?
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No, I believe he's 6'7".
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Okay, so he stands out, would you agree, by his height? He's taller than most human beings, is that correct? Correct. And it's safe to say that you don't have a good relationship with Ron Pexa, correct?
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No, I do not have a relationship with him.
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Did he tell you those times of sexting over the phone occurred in April of 2018?
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That's all. Anything else of this witness?
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No.
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Thank you, Ms. Sly.
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Defense may call its next witness.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Defense calls Luis Medina. Please state your full name and spell your last name for the record.
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Luis Medina, L-U-I-S M-E-D-I-N-A.
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Sir, how are you related to Christian Bahena-Rivera?
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He's the nephew of my wife.
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Let's talk about when Christian Bahena-Rivera was brought to the Sheriff's Office. How did you become aware that law enforcement was talking with him?
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My wife called me and said that Christian was being taken to the Power Sheet.
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Did you decide to go there?
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She told me to go and find out what's going on.
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Did you go to the Power Sheet County Sheriff's Office?
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Yes.
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When you got there, what did you do?
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I opened the door and pushed that button.
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In the sheriff's office, there's kind of a little doorway where there'd be a set of doors and then another set of doors, is that right?
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If he told me that, I'd like to think I reflected that in the report, but I don't remember for sure.
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Right.
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And if the sheriff's office is closed, then you've got to push a button to get in, is that right?
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Right.
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So you pushed that button? Yep. Did anybody answer? Yes. And what happened next, sir?
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I asked about Christian, and they know nothing about it, but they let me in. They told me to come in, and I went in, and I sat down, waited there for five minutes. Then two gentlemen came in and asked me how I knew him.
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Now, this waiting area that you were in, that you were let in after hitting the button, it's got some chairs and places for you to sit down, is that right?
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Yeah, it's kind of like the lobby.
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There's also, there's a restroom, is that right?
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Did he tell you that Molly found out about that? Yes. And did he tell you how Molly found out about that? He did. What did he say about that?
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I didn't see that.
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Okay. But you talked with these men, and they asked you questions about Christian Bahena Rivera, is that right?
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Yes.
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After that was done, what did you do?
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I wait there a little bit more because they told me it's going to be like 15 minutes. So then they came back again and asked me another question. It was different people. And they asked me questions about him. And I answer it. And then they told me, okay, like 15 minutes more.
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So you were told two different times it'll be 15 minutes, is that right?
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Right.
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About what time is this at night?
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That was probably around 8, 8 o'clock, 8, 10, 15.
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What happened next?
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I went to check on my son because he was outside waiting for me. Then I saw my sister-in-law come in with Delfino, asked me what's going on, and I said, they didn't say nothing. But I went to check on my kid, and they went towards over there. And when I came back, she was talking to a lady.
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How old's your son?
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Then he was 14.
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So you go out and check on him, and that's when who shows up?
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Alejandra and Delfino.
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And once they show up, do you try to go back inside of the sheriff's office?
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Well, he told me that when he was engaged in the conversations with Did you say Jordan? Yes. Yes. He had led her to believe that he and Molly were no longer seeing each other. And she found out that wasn't the case. So Jordan got upset and notified Molly what had been going on. So that's the way Molly found out about it, through Jordan.
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Yes.
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Were you allowed into the waiting room again?
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They asked me if I could go, if I wanted to wait out there, and we just waited there the whole way.
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How long did you wait?
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Well, it seemed like forever. We left that night at like 1.30 in the morning.
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While you're waiting, are you trying to reach... Christian Bahena-Rivera?
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No.
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Were you hoping to speak with him?
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No, I was just trying to find out what was going on.
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Were you ever able to get any information about what they were questioning him about?
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Yes, they asked me if I knew about Amali. And I go, yeah, that's on the news.
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No further questions.
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Mr. Brown, you may cross-examine.
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Just to clarify a couple things. Mr. Medina, is that correct? Yes. How are you? Good. So you were at the sheriff's office beginning at 7.30, is that correct? Well, yeah. And whether you were inside or outside the sheriff's office, what was the total time you were there? The total from 7 to 1.30. And was there another woman that was there with you? She came in later. And who was that?
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That was my sister-in-law. Cervantes, is that her last name? Yeah. And did you have a cell phone with you? Yes. Did you make any attempt to contact the defendant, Christian Bahena-Rivera? No. You were just trying to find out kind of what was going on, correct? Yes, sir. That's all. Thank you.
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Any other questions?
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No, Your Honor.
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Defense may call their next witness.
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Your Honor, at this time, the defense rests. Thank you.
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Did he indicate to you that Molly knew that he and Jordan had sexual relations? He told me that she was not aware of that. And did he tell you what Molly would have done if she knew that he and Jordan had sexual relations? Yes. What was that? Would have left him. Did he ever tell you that Molly... had forgiven him for having sexual relations with Jordan Lamb.
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I don't think she knew that he had sexual relationships with her. So if Mr. Dalton Jack would have testified in open court that Molly had known he had sex with Jordan Lamb and forgiven him for it, that would be inconsistent with what he told you on July 27th?
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Yes.
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Did Dalton Jack in his statement to you indicate that one or two months ago, prior to the interview, he had an online relationship Yeah, that's the sexting conversation that I'm referring to. Did he tell you he received pictures of Jordan Lamb in her underwear? Yes.
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If he testified here in open court that he had no recollection of that conversation with Jordan Lamb, that would be inconsistent with what he told you. Yes. Did Dalton Jack tell you that he told Jordan Lamb that he and Molly Tibbetts were no longer seeing each other? Yes.
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And if he testified here in open court that he didn't recall making those statements to Jordan Lamb, would that be inconsistent with what he told you? Yes. Did Dalton Jack tell you that Jordan Lamb found out that he and Molly Tibbetts were still together, she got mad, and sent Molly Tibbetts screenshots of the sexual conversations? Yes.
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I don't exactly remember. Where did it occur? at the fire departments in Brooklyn. And was Mr. Jack cooperative? Yes. Describe his demeanor. His demeanor seemed fine. He was talkative. He was concerned, obviously, with where's his girlfriend, where's Molly. So very concerned, able to have a conversation. Didn't seem very emotional. It was a conversation, but he was concerned about his girlfriend.
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If he testified in open court he had no recollection of doing that or that happening, that would be inconsistent with what he told you? Yes. That would end my offer of proof, Your Honor.
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Anything, Mr. Brown?
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My understanding on an offer of proof, that's what this is, our objection would stand. Much of what Mr. Freeze has brought up was not asked of Dalton Jack. Some of it, if not all of it, whenever he was testifying. So he's pulling out some detailed statements that are hearsay. I mean, some of it's double hearsay. Some of it's what Molly told somebody that told somebody, what Jordan told somebody.
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It's confusing. It's hearsay. And we would object.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Anything else you wanted to say, Mr. Fries?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, Your Honor. This is pursuant to 5613B as extrinsic evidence of prior inconsistent statement of Mr. Jack. If he said he had no recollection of this, Mr. or Agent George here can certainly testify that Mr. Jack's recollection was clear on that day. Yesterday, he didn't recall the April 9th conversation that he supposedly had with Molly Tibbetts or...
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I mean, he testified clearly that Molly, first of all, knew that they had sex. That's clear as a bell from yesterday's testimony, and she had forgiven him. This is completely contradictory. It's completely allowable under the rules, and very important for Mr. Bain's defense.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Your Honor, defense calls Matt George. State your name please.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So, Mr. Freeze, so the record's clear, you're asking that this be offered for impeachment purposes?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, and also it should be allowed as part of Mr. George's investigation. It's the effect on the listener.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, I'll give you some direction and rule on this prior to the jury being brought back in. Thank you. The court's previous ruling stands. Mr. Freeze, you've made your offer of proof. It stands, and we'll go from there. All right, we'll bring the jury back in. Mr. Freeze, you may continue.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Agent George, in your interviews with a number of people, were you attempting to find anyone who... may have had some sort of dispute with Molly Tibbetts? That could be one of several things that we're looking for. I mean, you talked to witnesses and asked if people had any sort of dispute or disagreement or reason to dislike Molly Tibbetts, right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Those would be things that would be asked oftentimes. She had any enemies, things like that, right? Correct. Were you able to discover any such person? Not that I'm aware of. She seemed very well liked. You were also trying to build a timeline. of Molly Tibbetts' activities in the days leading up to her disappearance, right?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That would have been part of the investigation, yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And were you able to determine what Ms. Tibbetts was doing the weekend before her disappearance?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not sure I was part of that area of the timeline, unless my report reflects something different.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You received a tip that Ms. Tibbetts may have been involved with someone from 211, I can't remember the exact address. You interviewed Curtis Laver, right? You'll have to refresh my memory on him. Did you learn that Ms. Tibbetts was at a pool party the weekend before her disappearance? That does sound accurate, yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you determine that she was alone or with a friend? I don't, as I sit here, remember that part of the investigation. Do you have a report that I could review?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's not that important, sir. Now, did you yourself ever interview Christian Bahena Rivera? No, I did not. Were you present in the Pawasheek County Sheriff's Office during the interview of Christian Bahena-Rivera? No, I was not. Were you involved in the canvas of Yarrabee Farms on August 20, 2018? No, I was not. That's all I have. Thank you, Agent George. Thank you. Mr. Brown, any questions?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Agent George, do you know Agent Derrick Riesen? Yes, I do. You did work with him as an MCU agent in Zone 4, is that right? That's correct. I want to direct your attention back to a time where you and Agent Reason were reviewing a surveillance video. Do you recall that? I do. And where was that surveillance video? Where had it been taken from?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It had been taken from a personal residence not too far away from the fire department in Brooklyn.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was that person Logan Collins? I don't remember his name right now. Agent Reason had been the one that went out to meet with Logan Collins to obtain the surveillance video. Would that be true? I believe that's true. Were you at the Brooklyn Fire Department assisting in the review of that surveillance video?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was it important for your investigation to get facts from Mr. Jack so you could potentially find Molly Tibbetts?
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I did a little bit of review, but not near as much as Agent Reason.
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Were you both watching it together when there was a moment that occurred that you or Agent Reason observed something on the video? Yes. Can you just tell us what happened?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So Agent Reeson was at the fire department in Brooklyn. He was at the table watching video surveillance from this residence. And he was trying to see if the video captured Molly Tibbetts running down a portion of the street that this camera was pointing towards. And as I walked up to Agent Reeson and asked him, hey, what are you doing? He looked up at me as I looked down at the computer screen.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And at that moment when he looks up at me and I look down, I see a figure going across the screen, and so I distracted him essentially from seeing Mullie Tibbetts run by.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you noticed that and directed his attention to that. Is that right? That's true. Then did you and he and other agents then start focusing on that particular video surveillance footage around that time? Yes. And was that on the video surveillance footage? Was that on July? been recorded July 18th of 2018 at or near 7.45 p.m. Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Did Mr. Jack detail to you his activity in the days leading up to Molly's disappearance? He did. Was he able to give you a timeline? He was. Do you recall what that timeline was?
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would you agree with me that this particular viewing of what you believe to be Molly Tibbetts was one of the breaks in the case? Yes. It helped provide a timeline, is that right? That's true. It focused you on a certain area in Brooklyn where you believe Molly to be running? That's right. Including vehicles that would have been seen in the video, is that correct? Yes.
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Part 7: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In that video, there was a black Chevy Malibu that drew yours and other officers' attention. Is that correct? Yes.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And the crime lab isn't gonna test 300 samples of blood from every different location in that house. The purpose of DNA is to identify who is our perpetrator. With Sabrina Teague's blood on his hands, literally, her blood on the knife, DNA consistent with Mr. Kerr and his son Teague on the tire iron.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The DNA evidence that was tested is consistent and confirms what an eyewitness told you and what Mr. Cahir himself confessed to. At the end of this case, you will be presented with all the facts, but you'll also be presented then with jury instructions. Those jury instructions outline the elements that the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As we discussed briefly at Gwadir, the elements for first degree intentional homicide are relatively straightforward. Did Mr. Cater cause their death? And did he do so with intent to kill? Both will be abundantly clear after you hear the evidence in this case. For all the reasons I've stated above, we know our perpetrator. He himself admitted to it. We have an eyewitness with DNA.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He's found unseen covered in blood. It doesn't get any simpler than that in terms of who committed these offenses. His intent to kill is likewise clear. You will hear from the medical examiner about the abundant, vicious injuries these two women suffered. There can be no other intent when you stab someone ten times or more.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She eventually became employed by the U.S. Postal Service and had retired shortly before this savage and senseless crime. She loved ballroom dancing, shopping, and playing the piano. Sabrina Teague was born on December 15, 1992, in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and graduated from Pulaski High School. She was employed at Perkins and wanted to be a social worker.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There can be no other intent when you batter someone so badly with a tire iron and stab them and have them hanging by a rope in the bathroom. What else could Mr. Kare's intent have been but to kill those two women? Likewise with Joel. You won't be asked whether he caused the injury, whether he attempted to do this, and whether he intended to kill Joel.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel has a gaping wound in his arm from a through-and-through stab from a large kitchen knife that went into his chest. The amount of force necessary to clear through someone's arm and then through the chest, what other intent could he have had at that moment but to kill Joel Kennedy? It will be abundantly clear to you when you hear the evidence in this case.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You'll also hear about some of the other collateral crimes that are associated with this that are for your consideration here. And that is burglary. He's charged with burglary or entering a residence with the intent to commit a felony. Clearly entered the residence. You're able to see the area in Sabrina's room where he entered. Without their consent, they weren't home.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Broke through a bedroom window. And obviously his crimes that he committed in terms of killing them and attempting to kill Joel are his felony offenses that he attempted. That was his intent in entering that residence that day. And then finally, there are two counts of bail jumping. Meaning Mr. Kerr was on bond in two other criminal cases.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
One of the standard conditions of bond in those cases is that you cannot commit any other criminal offenses while on bond. You can be released from custody, but there is a statutory condition that you cannot commit crimes while released on bond.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So if you find Mr. K guilty of committing the homicides and committing the burglary, committing the attempted homicide, if you find him guilty of any one of those, he naturally is also guilty of the bail jumping because he was on bond in those two criminal cases at this time. You will also hear about a jury instruction about reasonable doubt, proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That is the highest burden in the criminal justice system. It's the highest burden in our entire justice system, that the state must prove to you that there is evidence to support each element of these crimes beyond a reasonable doubt. We are confident that if you listen carefully to the evidence in this case, and you give a fair and impartial consideration of that evidence,
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
that you will clearly find that the state has met its burden of proof with respect to each of those elements beyond your reasonable doubt.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And that is what we ask of you here today, that you give a fair and impartial consideration of all the evidence that will come before you over the next few days, that you consider it carefully in deliberations, and that you render the only verdict that we think is possible in this case, the only verdict, the only reasonable inference in this case,
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The only reasonable hypothesis in this case is that Mr. Kerr committed these crimes and that he intended to commit these crimes and that you will find him guilty.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Lissette. Mr. Cotton?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Good morning, everybody. Can everybody hear me okay? Okay. I wanted to start by thanking everybody for being here for this very important case. As the state indicated, you're here today to decide whether Mr. Koehler is responsible for these crimes and I'm not going to get into the details of the offenses because you just heard a little bit of an overview.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What I do want to mention is that opening statements are not evidence. Opening statements are simply the, and that's why you're not taking notes right now, opening statements are simply the observations of the attorneys. Evidence is what you hear in court. Evidence is what you hear from witnesses who take the stand.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Evidence is what you hear when, whether it's an expert witness or a police officer witness, evidence is what you hear when an individual comes in here and offers their observations to you. We have a system of justice in this country that I think is the best in the world, and it's a very important system of justice. Defendants are presumed innocent at all stages of the proceedings.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You've probably heard about that in your personal lives, and we talked about that a little bit in jury selection, but every defendant is presumed innocent under the law.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In that presumption of innocence remains with the defendant, with Mr. Kher, the presumption of innocence remains throughout the whole trial, only until such time if the state is able to introduce evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. The reason why we have such a standard is because defendants are not required to prove their innocence. In other words,
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
She was shy and a fierce protector to those she loved. i cannot adequately describe the lives of hisan and sabrina only a family member and those closest to them can do that sarah may teague has a blog where she is brutally honest about the impact this crime has had on her and gives the readers a glimpse into who hisan and sabrina were
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
some systems have a requirement that a person come into court and start putting on evidence to show why they didn't do a particular crime that's not the system that our founding fathers created here in america they created a system where defendant is presumed innocent and you as jurors despite what you might hear an opening statement are required to follow that very important principle and remember at all times that you are to presume that mr care is innocent of these
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
very, very serious crimes. We'd ask that as you sit here through this trial, this will be a multi-day trial, we're sure of that.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I think the parties will work very hard to make sure we can move the case along for you as efficiently as possible because it's important that things that we can agree on, we'll try our best to agree on those things, but there will be a number of points that we don't agree on, of course, in which time there will be cross-examination of witnesses. Jacob Cahill is the defendant here.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Back on Friday when we did our jury selection, we talked a little bit about a defendant testifying, and I had mentioned during jury selection that, of course, a defendant has a constitutional right not to testify. So a defendant has sort of two rights in that vein, the right to choose not to testify, but the other end of that coin is that the defendant has the right to testify.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And this may very well be a case where, in addition to cross-examining the state's witnesses that they put on, this may very well be a case where Mr. Kerr will choose to testify and give his version of events for you folks. So I want you to keep an open mind throughout the entire case that you're hearing, because the state has the right to go first.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They're the ones that get to introduce the first witnesses. But then we have an opportunity after the state has, they say, rested, we have an opportunity to present witnesses if we might choose to do so, including at a second phase of the trial if it ever got to that. But of course, in the first phase of the trial, Mr. Kerr as a witness testifying about his version of events.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The most important thing from our perspective, folks, is that you keep an open mind throughout these proceedings.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We hope that all of you can follow your oath very seriously by remembering that Mr. Cater is presumed innocent at all stages of the proceeding, keeping an open mind about what you're hearing, and realizing that in many cases, you've heard the expression, there's two sides to every story.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I would go so far as to say there's oftentimes a bigger picture of what's happening, and sometimes we have to think very carefully about what the bigger picture is when we're making the decisions that are so important in this case.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And I would urge you to remember that there's always a bigger picture at play that we believe will, by the end of these proceedings, the end of this week, will be evident to you folks, and you'll find Mr. Cater not guilty. Thank you.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We will now begin with the state calling its first witness to elicit evidence on the issue of guilt. Mr. Lassay, your first witness.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Your Honor, in lieu of a witness, the state is going to play the 911 calls. It's my understanding that parties have stipulated that the 911 calls can be entered without the need of someone from dispatch to confirm them.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes. All right, so that's the agreement. Go ahead, Mr. Lassay. Thank you.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It is quite profound and I'm grateful to have been given a little insight into Heesun and Sabrina's lives. I encourage you all to read it. There will be a link in the show notes. Also, Sarah May took the stand and described Heesun and Sabrina to the court. Jacob Kare took the stand for direct and cross-examination.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
1-3-6-8? Oh, shit, he's trying to break into the house now. Okay, you said 1-3-6-8. Remember the old drive? 1-3-6-8. Okay, and someone's trying to break into your house? They already broke in. I'm standing here. I'm bleeding out. Okay, do you have a weapon? Yes.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What does he have? I don't know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He's running outside the door. Okay, do you know who he is? How many people are in your house right now? Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And can you guys tell us, where is he right now?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Where is the male?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Where did he stab you? Okay. Okay. Is that anyone else who gets injured?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
My girlfriend and her mom are injured. What happened to them?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They got stabbed, I believe. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Where are they right now? Are they by you? No. Okay, and you don't know, can you hear them at all? No. Okay, do you have a description of them? Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, and long brown hair with black shirt and blue jeans? Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right. And do you know if he came in the vehicle or on foot?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And do you... You didn't see it. How did he get into the house? Does anyone know him?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know. He was here when we got up here.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. How long ago did this start happening?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It was right when we got home about 15 minutes ago.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. And you don't know where they were stabbed at all?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Okay. Does he get any money to pay for getting a lot of help? Do you have any other descriptions? Did he have any tattoos? What type of knife did he have? I don't know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know. I think it was at the kitchen, right? Okay. I don't know.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Did you hear anyone else in the house? No. Do you know if there was another person that had a knife or anything?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't know. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And when is the last time that you saw your girlfriend and your mom?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
My girlfriend was fighting with my mom. I don't know if you don't hear that. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
How long ago was that, do you know?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
About five minutes. I think he might be gone. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It is quite long, he rambles off topic, and there are a lot of sounds from the microphone. I debated on whether to cut some of it out, but in the end, I kept it all because the interaction between him and the attorneys, as well as getting a feel for his mental state, is interesting. Just like with any trial, the sound level and quality varies.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Call her. Okay. But you didn't hear, you don't know where the other two females are at, correct? No, no, no.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No, I don't. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you said he had long brown hair and his clothing was a black shirt and blue jeans?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, I believe so.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. And you didn't notice any tattoos or any scars on his face or anything?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. All right. And you don't think you knew him either? No.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Um, it's my girlfriend's ex-boyfriend.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It's your girlfriend's ex-boyfriend?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. Do you know his name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Jake? I don't know what his last name is.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What is his first name, do you think?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, what is your girlfriend's name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What's her last name?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
T-E-A-G-U-E. Okay. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right. And you're still locked in the bathroom?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, I am. We're going to stay here until we have to get here. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right, you're doing the job I'm calling, okay? And you were stabbed in the arm, you said? Yes. Okay, how was that for you?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
A lot of blood.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, you're losing a lot of blood?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, I have a towel on it, but it's okay. Okay.
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The paramedics will be able to clean that up, okay? Okay, thank you. Do you hear them there? No. Okay, I'm going to stay on the phone with you until you hear all the stairs, okay?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, do you know if any of the doors are unlocked?
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No, they're not. Okay.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Doors aren't locked? No.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, is there a garage door that they can use to get in?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, there is a garage door. What is that?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do you have a spare key outside or anything?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There is a spare key on the front door of the new block.
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Okay, do you have any idea where he lives? No. Okay, and do you hear anyone yet?
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No, I don't.
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They need to help us kick the door in.
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You said, okay, you're saying they need to kick the door in?
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What is your name?
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Joel, J-O-E-L.
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And your last name?
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Okay. Like I said, they're going to be able to clean you up, okay? I'm sure of that.
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Oh, it fucking hurts.
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I believe it. Do you hear anyone outside yet?
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This one is pretty good overall, and even though on the stand K.R. claims he was able to fix the audio of his lengthy interview with the police, I was not, so I didn't include it.
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No, I don't hear anybody.
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Okay. What type of vehicle should be in the driveway?
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A gray Chevy Cobalt. Is that it? Are they here?
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We do have officers in the area, but I'm gonna wait for them to get in the house to disconnect, okay?
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You, oh, you're not with your girlfriend. You're not sure what type of vehicle that male would be driving if he had it?
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I do not know, no. Okay.
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And then was it your mom that was in the house with you or was it your girlfriend?
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It was my girlfriend's mom.
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Do you know her? What's her name?
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He's son. H-E-E-S-U-N. Okay. T. T-E-E-G? T-E-A-T-U-E. Okay. Thank you very much.
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No, not a problem. How are you doing?
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I've been in a lot of pain, so this and that are okay.
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Okay. And it's bleeding control at all?
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What's going on?
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I just looked at it. All I did was look at the towel and spray.
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Yeah, don't look at it. Just keep it covered and hope your medics get there. Okay. Okay, and do you have pressure on the itch to stop the bleeding?
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Okay. And where is it on your arm?
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Good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. I appreciate that you all showed up today. This is obviously extraordinary times and we're taking extraordinary measures here in the courtroom to make sure that everybody feels safe. And I appreciate that you showed up and that you're willing to hear this case. It's very important to the state, it's very important to Mr. that you do that.
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On my left arm, yeah.
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Okay. You're doing good, Joel, okay?
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And what was the last thing that you felt after you knocked him out?
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She's in the shower, in the bathtub.
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What bathroom are you in? Is there two stories?
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It's two stories. There's two bathrooms on the first floor.
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I'm in the bathroom. That's in the first back of the house.
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Okay. And so you think you're in the back of the house bathroom and she might be in the front?
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Yes, she's in the front bathroom.
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Okay. Rachel, have you heard anything yet?
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I think he's gone though.
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I think he's gone.
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Oh, that's fine. I'm gonna stay on the phone with you, like I said, until officers come and approach you. And you, Rachel, you don't have any weapons on you, do you? Um, I got one loaded. Okay, I need you to put that away.
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I closed it on the counter in the bathroom.
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I closed it on the counter in the bathroom. Okay. Should I close the door?
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I don't know.
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I don't know. I know.
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They're trying to make sure that you're safe, okay?
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Are they here? Is there any way to find out?
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Yeah, they are, but they're going on the perimeter, okay? They're just making sure that no one else is in the house and that you stay safe.
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So that's why I'm staying on the house with you, and we're going to make sure that you cover that room, okay? Okay.
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What did you say? So what... Okay, are you, are you still there Joel? Yes.
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Okay, what did you say was the name?
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He went inside the home and attacked them when they come in.
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Okay. Okay.
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Okay. It's good that you called right away, okay? Just remember that, Joel. Yeah. Okay. And how much are you bleeding, man?
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I'm still bleeding heavily. Okay. And my heart is numb.
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Okay, just hold on one second, okay, Joel?
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Okay, Joel, I need you to walk towards the front door to the front entrance. Let me know what you're saying, okay?
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Are they inside?
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Yeah, they're asking you to walk towards the front door so they've already secured the house, okay? All right. Let me know when you're going to open up the door. Did you open up the door?
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As the court indicated, the purpose of an opening statement is to sort of provide a guide map or an outline for where we think the case is going to go. It's not an opportunity to make arguments at this point, and my statements aren't evidence. They merely introduce to you what I think the evidence will show. Sitting at council table is highly unusual for me during an opening statement.
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Okay. All right. Please come up to the witness stand.
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Deputy Justin Raska, R-A-S-K-A.
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Deputy Raska, can you state for the record how you are employed? I'm a patrol deputy with Brown County Sheriff's Office. And how long have you been with the Brown County Sheriff's Office? About eight and a half years. And were you working in your capacity as a sheriff's deputy on June 7, 2016 at approximately 8 p.m.? Yes, sir.
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And do you recall being dispatched to a scene at 1368 Riverdale Drive in the village of Hobart? Yes, sir. When you responded to this scene, were there other officers or deputies on scene?
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I responded immediately when it was dispatched out. I don't think anybody was on scene immediately, but there were people on scene prior to my arrival.
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Okay, who was on scene when you got there?
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Officer Radloff with Hobart Lawrence PD, K-9 Deputy Brad Dernbach with Brown County Sheriff's Office, and right before me, Deputy Miller, Eric Miller with Brown County Sheriff's Office.
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Okay, do you know if there was an O-9 PD officer there when you arrived yet or no? I don't know if he was there yet, no. Deputy Raska, I'm going to show you what has been marked as Exhibit 1 at 1. Can you describe that photograph?
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Yes, kind of in the center of the photograph is the residence, 1368, that we responded to, County J or Riverdale Drive, kind of at the lower corner of that address. After you arrived, where did you go? I met with Eric Miller. I believe we met with Deputy Dernbach and Randy Radloff somewhere in the area right down here, kind of in front of the address.
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And then I stayed with Eric Miller and I approached the house. Okay, and from which direction did you and Deputy Miller approach the house? Deputy Miller and I approached kind of along this tree line. It's kind of like a hedge or shrub tree line along here. Deputy Miller and I approached kind of in between the tree line and this neighboring house, 1378.
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And it was just the two of you who made that approach? Correct. And for the record, that was the driveway to 1368. It's right in the middle. There's a tree line just to the right of that driveway, and you approached to the right of that tree line. Is that correct? Correct. And then I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1, App 2. Can you indicate what's depicted in that photograph?
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This is the residence of 1368 right here. Residence of 1378 right here. Riverdale Drive or County J. John. This would have been, I believe it was probably this path right through here that Deputy Miller and I approached 1368.
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The court indicated we're taking measures to make sure everything can be heard. If you are at all having trouble hearing me or understanding what I'm saying because of the mask or because of the lack of volume or whatever it may be, please raise your hand and alert the court and let us know. You're here today to hear the case of the state of Wisconsin versus Jacob Kayer.
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Okay, so just indicating with the laser pointer, again, just to the right of the tree line and right of the driveway. Upon your approach to that residence, what did you observe?
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Deputy Miller and I were approaching the residence. We observed a female body laying face down in the grass behind 1378.
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So I'm showing you what's been previously marked as Exhibit 1F3. What is depicted in that photograph?
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This is believed to be the female victim that we had located as we were making our approach.
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And when you observed her, can you describe what you saw?
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Saw a female that was laying face down in the grass. Immediately began giving commands to that female, not knowing what her involvement in the situation was whatsoever. Gave commands to the female and received no response whatsoever. Deputy Miller and I then approached the female, and I observed her again laying face down in the grass.
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I could see that she had wounds on her back that were indicative of what probably would have been stab wounds.
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When you made that observation of the female line there, did you see any other parties around?
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And you're with Deputy Miller at that point? Correct. The two of you both approached her together? Correct. What do you do with her body?
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I believe I checked for a pulse initially while she was still laying face down on the grass. I did feel what I thought was a pulse, so I rolled the female victim over onto her back then, so her chest was exposed to me. I again observed a couple wounds that were indicative of what I believe to be stab wounds.
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And I felt for not only a carotid pulse, but also a radial pulse on her wrist as well, attempting to observe any signs of life. In addition to feeling for a pulse, did you attempt any life-saving measures yourself? I did. I began CPR when I could no longer feel a pulse.
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At some point in time, did Rescue arrive on scene to take over for you?
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Yeah, Rescue arrived on scene along with a couple other officers or deputies from different agencies, and they took over the life-saving portion of the female victim while I continued to kind of search the area after that. After Rescue came and took over for you, what was the next thing that you did?
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Because trials can be quite sterile when talking about victims, I wanted to take a few minutes and describe these two women who were so undeserving of the crimes perpetrated against them. Sarah May Teague, his son's daughter and Sabrina's sister, said it best when she said, They were more than the ex-girlfriend and the mother.
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I met up then, I believe it was with Deputy Famry, who was on scene, or it could have been O-Night Officer Logan Webster, actually. There were a couple outbuildings that were behind 1378, including...
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Bring you back to exhibit 1F1 to allow you to show where the outbuildings are.
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Yeah, there's a garage, and I believe, I don't know if this is a shed or what else was back there, but there were a couple outbuildings behind 1378. Obviously, being in the immediate area of where one of these victims were laying, we wanted to search the area to make sure that the suspect was not actively in one of those buildings.
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What you will hear is that on June 7th, 2016, Jacob Kerr turned 1368 Riverdale Drive in the village of Hobart into a real-life horror movie. Sabrina Teague and her live-in boyfriend Joel Kennedy, they walked on the scene of that horror movie at 8 p.m. that night. When they entered the home through the garage door, Sabrina walked into the home. They could hear the shower running in the bathroom.
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When you were searching the outbuildings behind the residence that you'd indicated as 1378, did you notice any parties on scene at that time? No. After searching or clearing those outbuildings, what did you do next?
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I met up with Deputy Famry kind of in the driveway of 1368, kind of in this area right here, right on the corner.
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That's the area still kind of blocked by the tree, but just in front of what, the garage of 1368? Correct.
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We had then checked this garage as well. I believe this is the garage for 1368, one of the detached garages for 1368. So Deputy Samary and I then checked that garage, and we weren't able to locate anybody inside that garage as well.
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That's the garage to the right of the residence on this photograph? Correct. All right. After doing that, what was the next thing that you did?
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I had waited, we waited around briefly in front of the address, kind of in that driveway area again, for Lieutenant McCauley and K9 Deputy Dernbach. Deputy Dernbach had decided that at that point he wanted to attempt a track for the suspect using his partner pal, his K9 partner pal.
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So I had met with him, and him and I kind of went off on me covering him, me following him, and we conducted a track kind of around the yard of 1368.
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Were you aware at that time when you started the track if the complaining witness had exited the residence at that time? No, I wasn't aware of that at that time, no. That was not part of your responsibility? No. I want to bring you back to 1F3. Did you make any observations of the area around the body of the female? No, no, I didn't.
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Back on 1F1, if you could use the laser pointer to depict the area where you believe Deputy Dernbach was when you started the track.
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Do you mind if I go back to that last question? I was thinking of the environment immediately around her. I do recall that there was blood in the grass around her, around her body. I don't know if that was part of an answer to the question you were looking for, but specifically when I would kneel next to her to perform CPR, there was blood on the ground next to her in the grass.
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Did you note any direction or any direction of travel or anything of that nature? Not that I recall. No, it was kind of pooling around here. All right. Back to 1F1, if you could note on there the area where you began the track with Deputy Dernbach. Yes, sir.
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So we started in a counterclockwise manner. We kind of... Again, you would have to refer to him and how he works his partner. But we kind of moved in this direction around the yard, along the tree line, him looking for whatever reaction he would look for with his canine partner, and I was essentially his cover officer.
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His primary responsibility was that dog and finding that track, and I wanted to make sure that he was safe.
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At some point in time, did Deputy Nirenbach indicate to you that his dog had sort of developed a track or a scent? Yes, sir. And do you know about where that location was when the dog started a specific track?
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It would have been in this back corner. I don't know exactly where we went into the tree line, but essentially we stopped. We went into the tree line a few feet, maybe five feet, and stopped, and Officer Dernbach then asked for more units because he made it appear as though his dog was indicating on something in that tree line. And did other units arrive for support? Yeah.
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Deputy Miller then arrived back at our location along with Officer Logan Webster.
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And once those two cover officers arrived along with yourself and Deputy Dernbach, what did you do?
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We continued on to this wooded line. I was at Deputy Dernbach's rear. So, again, providing safety cover for him who obviously had the responsibility of following his dog. We went into the wood line a little bit, and Deputy Dernbach indicated that his dog was hitting heavy on a specific area inside the wood line. Can you describe the vegetation in there? Thick, dark.
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I remember, I think I took my flashlight even out at some points because it was dark in that area. Considerably darker than standing out in the yard. I remember it wasn't like grown-up vegetation. It wasn't very large trees, but it was thick cover in there.
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And do you recall about what time it was when you started to make that track? I don't remember the exact time frame.
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It wouldn't have been probably around the 8.30 time. It wasn't too much longer after we had arrived on scene. CPR was given to the female victim, and then we met up with Officer Deputy Dernbach. It shouldn't have been too much longer after that point.
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And once the track was initiated... Did the dog locate a subject fairly quickly? Yes. And do you know on that overhead roughly where the subject was located?
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I believe it was going to be back in this corner right here. I remember there was a kind of a small clearing area with tall grass or weeds. The male suspect was laying down in, and that's where the dog had indicated, and that's kind of where Deputy Dernbach was giving his commands to him.
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Can you describe the process then after you kind of discovered the male? Who makes contact with him first?
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Sabrina walked to the first floor bathroom. where her mother's dead and badly beaten body was located. She took out her phone to call 911, started walking back toward the kitchen area where Joel was located. Mr. Kerr jumped out of the door in the laundry room and attacked them with a knife. This is a real life horror movie description. Mr. Kerr
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Yeah, so Deputy Dernbach was giving out commands to the male. At that point in time, he has to determine whether he's going to let his dog engage that suspect. K-9 PAL did engage the suspect, and then... Yeah, Deputy Miller and I came up, and one of us took, I believe Deputy Miller took his left arm. I took his right wrist. We got on each side of the suspect.
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First and foremost, we wanted to make sure that he didn't have any weapons on him. He wasn't complying at first, and then we were able to see that his hands were empty. That's when we went hands-on with him, and we were able to secure one arm. I secured the other, and we were able to put handcuffs on him.
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So you and Deputy Miller are the two people that put him in handcuffs? Yes. You indicated that he wasn't complying immediately. Was it a relatively short period of time where there was struggle, or how did that go down?
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Yeah, when Deputy Dernbach had initially given him commands, it was show me your hands, indicated that he probably saw him in the grass, show me your hands. There was no compliance there. He wasn't indicating that he wasn't giving up to law enforcement. He wasn't showing us his hands or anything. or showing that he was there. So that was the time of non-compliance.
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Past that, then when K-9 PAL engaged with the suspect, then we were able to see that his hands were empty and we were able to go hands-on with him and no longer had our weapons out at that point.
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Were you able to make any specific observations of the male's person after you went hands-on with him?
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Yeah, I remember he had damage to, he was wearing blue jeans. He had damage to his blue jeans as far as where the canine would have engaged. I believe that would have been on his left thigh kind of hip area. And there was a lot of blood. There was a lot of blood not only where the canine had engaged, but I remember his pants being full of blood as well. He had a bandage around one of his hands.
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I want to say it was his right hand. And then he was wearing some sort of bandana face mask kind of hanging around his neck.
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Was it covering or concealing his face at that point in time? No, I don't believe so. Do you recall any of the officers, or specifically you yourself, did you observe Mr. Kerr before? The dog engaged with him?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I could see that there was something or someone in the grass. I wasn't able to make any observations or identify somebody specifically in the grass, especially where the canine had indicated. The canine doesn't indicate for that general area. He was very specific on there was somebody laying right there in the grass. After the handcuffs were placed on Mr. Cater, where did you go with him?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We had assisted him off the ground. We had never walked him. Yeah, the previous photo. We had walked him over to this clearing area right here. This is Exhibit 1, App 6. Just on this side of the tall grass or wheelie area. I was on one arm. I believe I was on his right side. I believe it was Deputy Miller that would have been on his left side then.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And his hands being behind his back, we were able to kind of carry him underneath his arms, underneath his shoulders, and carry him to that area. He was upright, but he wasn't exactly walking on his own power at that point. And what happened when he got out into that clearing? Looked him over for injuries, asked him if he needed rescue if he had injuries.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't remember any straightforward responses. I think there was some incoherent mumbling that came from him. But there were no obvious signs of injury other than that left thigh hip area that that pal had engaged him on.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you involved in any search or processing of Mr. Kerr at that scene? No, I had actually turned him over.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There were Green Bay PD officers that were arriving on scene. I believe there were Green Bay PD officers that arrived on scene. We kind of handed him off, the suspect, over to the officers at the time just because...
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
For me personally, it was something that I had just been involved in finding him and it was that high stress situation where we hand him off to another officer and they can perform the search and follow up that's needed.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have an opportunity to observe the suspect's face?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I remember his face being almost like he got in a fight. I think he had like a fat lip or bruising around his mouth. He had long blonde hair kind of disheveled like he had been hiding in the woods. Didn't appear as though he had just cleaned up and had walked out of the house.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right. After handing him off to the Green Bay police officers, do you have any further involvement at that point? Not in that case, no. Thank you.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
No further questions at this time.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. Mr. Cotton?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Good afternoon, sir. You were present when Mr. Kayer was found in the tall grass there on that picture, right? Correct. Do you know how he got to that tall grass? I do not. Do you know whether he walked there under his own power or whether somebody else brought him there? I do not. You never saw him go there, it would be fair to say. Correct.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you talked about, I think you used the phrase incoherent mumbling. Did I hear that correctly? Correct. Who was making incoherent mumbling? Mr. Taylor. When did that happen?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That would have been once we had made physical contact with him, once we had taken him into custody, there were simple questions that I had asked as far as what is your name, and I didn't get a coherent response from him. Can you elaborate what it sounded like?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
attacked both sabrina and joel in the living room joel kennedy is an eyewitness to this event who survived the brutal attack from mr care not unharmed mind you but with significant injuries himself a struggle ensued in the kitchen mr kennedy was able to go outside to the garage and grab a snow shovel The struggle continued in the garage area as Sabrina and Mr. Kare poured out into the garage.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I wouldn't be able to replicate it. I don't know what it would have sounded like. Okay, so not actual words you could even make out. Correct. Okay, so when you say mumbling, you're not sure what was even coming out of his mouth. Correct. And you said you could tell that his face looked like he had been in a fight. Did you say that?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I don't know what my exact words were there, if he had been in a fight. But it looked like, like you said, he had a fat lip. He had... He wasn't, his fat lip, he was sweating. It wasn't like he was clean cut just walking out of the house.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
A fat lip would be consistent with somebody being struck in the face or the head, fair to say? Did you examine his body with your, did you do any physical examination to see whether he had any lumps or bruises on his head?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You just saw the fat lip and the disheveled appearance? Right. Would it be fair to say there was no drugs or contraband located on Mr. Kayer in that area? Not that I saw. And the observations of Kayer, you noticed that his jeans were torn, and you attribute that to the dog biting him, right? Correct. Okay, because you saw the dog engage with him. Correct.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When Mr. Kayer was found in that area there, I'm assuming you were walking up to that location. Is that fair to say? When he was found in the grass? Yeah. It kind of threw the woods. Okay. And did you ever at any point see him running?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay. You saw him laying there? Correct. Would it be fair to describe him as passive in a way in terms of how you found him? Yes. No active resistance? No.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Besides initially not showing us his hands, actively trying to hide his hands or keep them underneath his body, once the canine engaged with him and we were able to see his hands, after that he never fought with us. He didn't show any other kind of active resistance towards us.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Got it. He wasn't struggling with the officers. Right. And in terms of him laying there with his hands... You can't say what he did or didn't hear. Would you agree with that? Correct. Okay. So K.R. is laying there in the grass. The dog bites him and he pulls his hands out. Fair to say? For the most part, yes. Okay. And there's no weapon in his hands, right? Correct.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And you can see that because you're looking with your own eyes, right? Correct. And then that's when you go hands-on and start handcuffing him. Correct. And as you are handcuffing him, he's not twisting around trying to get you off of him or get away, right? Correct. So he complies with that process, would be fair to say? Yes, sir. And then you did do a report in this case, didn't you, sir?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, sir. And you had a chance to review it before your testimony today? Yes, sir. Okay. Fair to say your report is an accurate summary of what took place? Yes, sir. You described Mr. K or do you not as partially walk under his own power. Did you use that expression? In my report? Yeah. I believe that's what it says in my report, yes.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The male suspect was conscious and breathing and would only partially walk under his own power. Yes, sir. Is that accurate? Yes. Can you explain what that phrase means, partially walk under his own power?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yeah, I remember his legs being underneath him, as I had described, me being on his right-hand side. My left arm was kind of hooked underneath his shoulder, his right shoulder.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
sort of strength or power to keep him up from from either collapsing back down on the ground falling back down on the ground and get him moving out into the the field itself he didn't stand he wouldn't have been able to stand unsupported on his own okay these things that you observed mumbling incoherently
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
One or more injuries to the face, disheveled appearance, partially walking under his own power. Would you agree with me that those things are consistent with somebody who suffered a head injury? Potentially. As a deputy, you've responded to accidents where people have had such injuries, right? Potentially, yes.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, thank you.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Any additional questions, Mr. Lassay?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy, you also had an opportunity to come into contact with suspects who are not fully cooperative with you when you're attempting to arrest them and move them. Is that fair to say? Yes, sir. The same types of behaviors, like not walking under his own power and not choosing to fully cooperate with officers, is that also consistent with a non-cooperative suspect? Yes, sir.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you able to specifically determine which was the case during this incident?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Thank you. No further questions. Thank you.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
All right. Thank you. You may step down.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Do not move.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel struck Mr. Kare in the face with the shovel. There are physical injuries consistent with that. Mr. Kare went to the ground and Mr. Kennedy ran back in the house. He closed the door to the garage. He ran past the bathroom where his son, T, lay dead.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put the gun away.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put the taser away.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put the taser away.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put the taser away. Stop resisting! Stop resisting!
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Lay on your stomach.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Put your hand behind your back.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have a witness to call?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I do have another witness prepared, yes. Okay. I would say we'll call Deputy Miller. Eric Miller, M-U-E-L-L-E-R. Deputy Miller, can you state for the record how you are employed?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I work for the Brown County Sheriff's Department. I've been there a little over seven years.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what is your current position with the Sheriff's Department? I'm a patrol deputy. Were you working in your capacity as a patrol deputy with the Sheriff's Department on June 7, 2016? Yes, I was. Shortly after 8 p.m., were you dispatched to a call in the village of Hobart? Yes, I was. On Riverdale Drive? Correct. Do you know what time the dispatch came out? I believe it was around 8.13 p.m.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And what was the nature of the call based on the information provided to you by dispatch?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It came out as a weapons call. There was a male with a knife and there were multiple people that were stabbed.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy, when you arrived on scene, were there other officers present? Yes, there was. Who was present when you arrived?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Deputy Dermbach was first on scene, and then I arrived shortly after, and then Deputy Raska arrived shortly after me. Do you know if there were officers from other departments on scene as well? There was from Hobart Lawrence and Oneida PD.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you arrived on scene, what did you do?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I was advised to start the approach with Deputy Raska. We were on the east side of the residence and approached to the north.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As you made your approach toward the residence, what did you observe?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We then approached to the back door of this residence, which the lights were on. We knocked multiple times, but there was no one home. No one came to the door. What did you do after that? I then walked to the rescue squad that was parked in the driveway right here, and then I was approached by the complainant, Joel Kennedy.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
into his son's room where he closed the door and locked it, into his son's bathroom in her master bedroom where he closed the door and locked it, and he called 911. You will hear that 911 call. You'll hear the panic in his voice. You'll hear him huffing and puffing, explaining how blood is spurting out of his arm.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel had walked to your location?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He did. And did you speak with him at all? I did for a short time. I was asking the description of the suspect, which he stated the guy's name was Jake. He was wearing blue jeans, a dark-colored T-shirt. And he had long brown hair. Did you make any observations of Joel's person?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I noticed that he was holding his left hand, and I believe he was applying pressure to a wound that he had on his left arm, which was bleeding heavily. Were you there to provide any assistance to him? I did not. Shortly after he gave me the description, rescue personnel attended him, and then Deputy Reese arrived and went with rescue and Joel.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After you spoke briefly with Joel, then what did you do?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I was then asked by Sergeant Lowell that Deputy Dermbach needed another deputy or two for a track in which I walked to the west of the tree line and I met with Deputy Dermbach, Deputy Roscoe, and I believe an Oneida officer in the corner of the residence, the northwest corner.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
So you indicate you walked up the tree line on the left side of the driveway to the left side of the back of the residence where you met with the other officers? Correct. Do you know if Deputy Dernbach had already been conducting a track at that point in time?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
From what I was told, I believe he was, and he was about to head into the tree line, which is where he stopped and waited for more officers. So you arrived to assist him? Yes, I did.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What did you do once you arrived with Deputy Dernbach?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I was providing lethal cover on his left side as we approached into the tree line with the canine.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
About how long after you arrived by Deputy Durenbach to provide cover did you ultimately locate an individual?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It wasn't very long. From what I recall, we were going straight north, and then the canine flirted to the left, and then shortly after that is when we engaged the suspect. Did you see the suspect prior to the canine engaging with him?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I did not. What are your observations when the K-9 engages?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
At that point, officers started giving commands. We tactically approached the individual. Deputy Raska obtained suspect's left arm, and then I went and took custody of his right arm, and then he was placed in a handcuffs eventually. Was the male cooperative with your commands? He was not.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He was not showing his hands at first, and it took a little bit of him resisting before we got him into custody.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After the male was placed in custody and the handcuffs were on him, what happened then?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We then walked him out to a clearing, which is where he was searched, patted down, and then we brought him from there to the rescue squad that was waiting on Camelot Court. Did you assist in bringing him to the clearing? I was walking with him, yes.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you make any observations of the defendant's person as he was walking to the clearing?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I know that he was very muddy, very dirty, appeared to be soaked in blood. Blue jeans are very dirty and ripped. He also had some sort of a black mask that was around his neck that appeared to be soaked in blood as well.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Joel Kennedy had been stabbed with a kitchen knife that went in one side, out the other, and into his chest. as he lay on the floor in the kitchen before getting up, kicking Mr. Kerr off and having the struggle ensue. He knew that Sabrina had been left with Mr. Kerr in the garage area of the home.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1G6. Can you identify that photograph?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That appears to be the area that the suspect was taken into custody. And at the top of that photograph, what can you observe sort of near the top of the photograph? This would have been the way that we walked out to the clearing.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then Exhibit 1G7, can you identify that photograph?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
That would be briefly where we stopped and some items were taken off of him.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then we continued walking to the Camelot Court. So you believe he was the area where the cone indicates and there's sort of a pile of things. You think that's the area where he was searching and items were taken off of him? Correct. Did you do that or is that a different? I did not. But you were present when that happened? Correct. From that location, where was he taken?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We walked to Camelot Court. Do not know the specific address, but it was down at Camelot Court where a rescue was waiting.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
How was he acting when you were transporting him to the rescue?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He wasn't walking fully on his own. The officer had to assist him with walking him to rescue.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Were you able to gauge whether that was because he was not cooperative or whether he had any injuries or concerns? I do not recall. I also want to talk to you about your observations of his clothing. What do you remember that he was wearing?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Blue jeans, a dark-colored T-shirt, and he at some point had a bandage or a rag wrapped around one of his hands or fingers, and then that black face mask was around his neck. Was a concealer covering his face when you had contact with him? Not when we made contact, no.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You made observations of them being dirty or blood-soaked, is that right? Correct. At some point in time, did you actually come into contact with that clothing?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I did, yes. How did that happen? At some point, I believe it was a Green Bay officer handed me the bag of the shirt and pants that were cut off by rescue, along with some other items, a watch, a belt, and that blood-soaked rag was also handed over to me. What did you do with those items? Held on to them.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I rode with rescue to the hospital, and they stayed in my possession until I later entered into evidence at the Sheriff's Department.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You mentioned that you rode with rescue to the hospital.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Where were you physically located? I would have been sitting in the seat directly behind the cot that's in the back of the ambulance. So you were in the ambulance with Mr. Kerr? Correct.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you make any observations of Mr. Kerr while he was being transported by rescue?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He was making some statements in the back of the ambulance. Comments such as, fucking rapist. Why didn't you fucking kill me? Ike, where is he?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They... Can you describe the nature of the comments? I mean, obviously, you talked about the words that he used, but what was his tone of voice like? What was his speech pattern, things like that?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I would say a lot of yelling, screaming, not making a lot of sense with what he was saying. Who else was in the rescue squad with you? There was three rescue personnel, I believe a McKenzie Teske, an Olson, and I do not recall the... Third individual. Were you the only officer who was in there? Yes, I was. And then what happened when you arrived on scene at the hospital?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Once we arrived, Deputy Neurath had been following us from the scene all the way to the hospital. And at that point, when the doors opened, he was behind with the squad iPhone and he began a video recording. What did you do after you arrived at the hospital and Deputy Neurath began filming? I followed them. We went into the ER, into a room where staff attended to him.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Sabrina eventually opened the garage door and the struggle ensued and poured out of the garage into the driveway area, into some foliage and trees outside the residence. There is a blood trail leading There's a blood trail everywhere. This entire house is covered with blood.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What was your role on scene at that point? Basically just standing by, still holding on to that evidence, begging it. Did you make additional observations of the defendant while he was at the hospital? Still making a lot of weird comments, kind of yelling, screaming a little bit yet.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
At some point did his demeanor change while he was at the hospital? Not while I was there, no. You indicated that you had responsibility for the clothing. What did you end up doing with the clothing that had been cut off the defendant?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
We had bagged it, and then we had later replaced it into the evidence at the sheriff's department, which being that it was still soaked in blood, we put it in the drying chamber. Who was we? Me and Deputy Neurath. Did you do that together?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Yes, we did. And that was at the Brown County Sheriff's Office? Correct. Describe what it is to put something in the drying chamber.
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Basically, you're taking the clothes out of the bag that it was first put in, putting it on a rack, putting it in this drying chamber, turning it on, locking it, and then I later put the key into evidence.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
As you were putting those clothes in the drying chamber, were you able to make specific observations of the clothing itself?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Still notice that was very dirty, torn. Face mask, it was a black face mask with a skeleton design on the front. And then there was two holes cut out where your eyes would potentially be. No further questions at this time.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Cotton? Good afternoon. So, you had, as I understand it, been present in the ambulance when Mr. Kerr was transported to the hospital? Correct. And that's when the state was asking you about things that you heard. One of the things I think you said was, Ike, where is he? Correct. What does that mean? I have no idea.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
had you been asking something about had you brought anything up to trigger that type of comment i did not would we call these spontaneous utterances in a way you could say that sure okay i guess what i'm asking is was law enforcement engaging with mr care in the ambulance or were these just things that were coming out of his mouth just things that were coming out of his mouth
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You had said, I think, not making a lot of sense. Is that a fair way to describe it? Correct. Did any of it make any sense to you? From the time of the ambulance, no. Okay. And then the ambulance, how long would you say the ambulance ride to the hospital took? 15 minutes. And was Mr. Keir the whole 15 minutes just making statements, or were there periods of time where he was quiet?
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There's a blood trail leading from the garage, down the driveway, into a tree line, and into the backyard of the neighbor's residence where Sabrina's body was located by law enforcement officers just minutes later. The knife covered in Sabrina's blood is located in that tree line by law enforcement officers the next day.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
I would say there was periods of time where he was quiet. Like I said, the statements that I have in my report are the ones that I remember him saying.
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Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Did you have a recording of any of the statements that were made? I did not. No body cam on you? No. And you didn't use a personal phone or department phone to capture any of that, did you? No. So when you write the statements in your report, it's after you're done with your work, you went and typed the report and put the statements in there, right? Correct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
And then Mr. Lassay asked you about Mr. Kerr at the hospital. You did see him in the hospital, right? Correct. So were you one of the officers or deputies who was present from the transfer out of the ambulance into the operating room? Were you present during that? Correct. And you made a statement just a few minutes ago that at the hospital there was, quote, lots of weird comments.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Is that your testimony? Yes. I don't recall saying weird comments. Okay. How would you describe the statements Mr. Kerr was making at the hospital? Statements that weren't making much sense. Okay, so you don't think you said the phrase weird comments, but we can say not making sense? Correct. Okay. Not logical? Correct. And you said Mr. Kerr's demeanor did not change while he was at the hospital.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
What did you mean by that?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
From the time that I was with him at the hospital, I wouldn't say that he... I mean, there's times where he would stop talking. But the comments that he was saying just wasn't making sense.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Okay, in the same vein of Ike, where is he, fucking rapist, those types of things. Correct. Okay. Okay, that's all.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Any additional questions, Mr. Lucek? No, sir.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
exactly where Mr. Kerr diagrammed it in a map of his confession to law enforcement. This is a real life horror movie, ladies and gentlemen. It is not a mystery. We know exactly who caused these deaths. We know exactly what happened. Unlike many cases, this is not a situation where it's a whodunit. There is an eyewitness to the events that transpired, Joel Kennedy.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They were fully complex human beings, beautiful people, and I just want people to know that, and I love them. Hee-sun Teague was born in South Korea on January 13, 1952. Hee-sun, or Sunny as she was also known, immigrated to the United States at 30 years old and married James Teague. Together, they had two daughters, Sarah Mae and Sabrina. James died in 1999.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Kerr is found by law enforcement about 30 minutes after their arrival, hiding in the woods behind the house, covered in blood, where he's found by a K-9 unit from the Brown County Sheriff's Office. He is arrested. He is brought to the hospital, where he gives a detailed, many-hour confession to Sergeant Holschbach of the Brown County Sheriff's Office.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
DNA evidence is located on the knife, confirming that that was the knife that killed Sabrina Teague. Detailed DNA evidence is found on a tire iron located inside the house, which confirms that his son's blood is located on the curved end of that tire iron. And DNA consistent with Mr. Kayer is found on the handle. Sabrina Teague's blood is located on swabs from Mr. Cater's hands, both of them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This is not a whodunit, ladies and gentlemen. You have an eyewitness. You found on the scene covered in blood. A confession and DNA evidence. Over the course of the next few days, the state will present a number of witnesses to you to demonstrate that Mr. Kerr committed these offenses. As indicated, you will hear first the 911 call.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You will hear Joel Kennedy calling 911 and explaining to them what happened, that they were attacked in their home. You will hear them identifying it as Jake and identifying Mr. Kerr as Sabrina's ex-boyfriend. Joel will explain to you how he had met Jake on one prior occasion at Walmart.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There was a brief argument between Mr. Kare and Sabrina, but he was able to identify then Mr. Kare as Sabrina's ex-boyfriend. He will tell you Mr. Kare had never been to the home during the seven months that he lived with Sabrina at that residence. In addition to Mr. Kennedy's statement about what happened, You will hear about how law enforcement officers arrived on the scene shortly thereafter.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
They came upon the scene making a tactical approach based on the nature of the call that came in from Mr. Kennedy that it was a weapons call. The officers who approached from the right side of the residence walked up into the neighbor's backyard where they saw Sabrina's body lying in the backyard. They rolled her over and attempted to administer aid, but she was deceased.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
After that, other officers made contact with Mr. Kennedy at the front door of the residence, cleared the residence, walked Mr. Kennedy out of the residence where he was cooperative with law enforcement. He was removed to emergency services. Officers cleared the residence and began a perimeter search for Mr. Kayer. Shortly thereafter, officers located Mr. Kayer on scene.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He was taken into custody by the officers, brought to a clearing where he was searched, His pockets were emptied. In his pockets, there was rope, cord. In his pockets was Sabrina's cell phone. His clothes were covered in blood. The officers will tell you that his pants, his shirt, a mask or a head covering that he had, all had significant blood staining on them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
The following is a condensed version of the 2020 trial for the murders of Sabrina Teague and her mother, Heesan Teague. 26-year-old Jacob Kayer was out on bond for two crimes. One of the conditions of that bond was that he commit no further crimes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Kerr was transported to the hospital and gave a detailed statement.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
to sergeant holschbach and sergeant yankee of the brown county sheriff's office it's not a situation where after 12 hours of being grilled he finally said yeah i did it you got me it is a detailed statement that indicates many aspects of this that are corroborated by the forensic evidence recovered on scene and the photographs that are taken by the state crime lab when they come to that scene he talks about the water running both the shower and the sink
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
In the bathroom where his son Teague's body were both running when law enforcement arrived. You can hear it on the 911 tape. Officers will tell you that they turned that off. Mr. Kerr can talk about washing himself and washing his feet during his statement. Socks are recovered in the sink of that bathroom with his son Teague's blood on them.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Kerr is barefoot when he's recovered by law enforcement officers. He talks about stabbing. There is a video. You will see a video of Mr. Kare taking a pen and reenacting the stabbing motion toward Sabrina Teague's neck and upper torso, consistent with a large stab wound to Sabrina Teague's neck, which unfortunately you will have to see in the photographs from the medical examiner.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Hee-sun married again, and he died in 2014, leaving her a widow once again. Hee-sun struggled for the first 15 years of her life in the United States. She endured through it all and went to college, secured a good job, and provided very well for her daughters. Hee-sun went to college and earned her CPA certificate. The exam for this course is difficult and rigorous.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He would talk about, in addition to the stabbing, that there was blunt force injuries, that he recalls swinging a hammer or an object like a hammer, not a hammer, but something like a hammer. He recalls swinging that. He believes in the bathroom, consistent with the tire iron recovered, and the significant blunt force injuries to Hisantique that you will observe.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
He talks about riding his bike to the scene. He talks about putting on his headphones and getting angry and getting worked up listening to Hollywood Undead. You will find that his bike is recovered on scene. Officers noticed it in the tree line as they made the approach from the left hand side. He photographed his bike turned over on scene.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
You will note that there's an open window outside of Sabrina's bedroom.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
clearly visible from the outside of the home that the window is ajar and then from the inside that that window is broken there's grass inside as if that was the area for forced entry we will also learn that officers recovered a backpack unseen a backpack filled with miscellaneous items mr care's identification card his driver's license inside that backpack along with knives scrapers
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
a rusty railroad spike, a hammer that is duct taped and fashioned as a weapon with a carabiner on it. There are zip ties recovered in the residence by Hesontigue's body, consistent with the zip ties found in Mr. Kerr's backpack. The tire iron used to kill Hesontigue is wrapped in duct tape. There's a roll of duct tape in Mr. Kerr's backpack.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
There's duct tape around that hammer with the carabiner and fashioned as a weapon. He details the rage that he has and the anger that he felt that night, that he had been in an argument, that he rode to that scene angry. He provides a diagram of where these events took place to law enforcement. The law enforcement officer taking his statement had not been to the scene.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
This was a Hobart-Lawrence scene where DCI, the Division of Criminal Investigation for the State, was on scene. The sergeant who took the statement had not been out there. They were relaying some information back and forth, but he had very little information. They had not found the knife.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mr. Kerr provided a diagram outlining exactly where the knife would be located, and that's right where they found it. And he recalls Sabrina being stabbed in some foliage. completely consistent with the crime scene that we located. She stumbled out from the garage into the driveway, into that tree line where there's blood staining, and into the neighbor's backyard.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
When you hear that statement to Sergeant Holmsbrock, you'll hear parts of it. You'll hear Sergeant Holmsbrock talk about the statement, and then you will actually hear parts of it, and you will see the reenactment. And then you will see the evidence from the crime lab. You will see the pictures from the scene corroborating the information given in that statement.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
It will be abundantly clear to you that Mr. Kare is the person who caused the death of his son and Sabrina T. And that he did so with intent to kill them. And again, you will hear then from the crime lab, from the DNA analyst who will confirm. You'll hear DNA evidence isn't perfect, and we talked about this in voir dire. There's blood all over this house, right?
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Raytown is a city in Jacksonville County, Missouri, with a population of 30,000. One of those 30,000 was Anne Marie Harrison, age 15 at the time this story begins. Anne was born in Kansas City, Missouri, on February 22, 1974. She was a sophomore honor student at Raytown South High School, attended church with her parents and two sisters, and played on a softball league.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
At around 7.10 a.m., the school bus driver pulled up and honked the horn, but Ann wasn't there, only the belongings she had set on the ground. Janelle Harrison, Ann's mom, checked in the house, the backyard, and with a neighbor who Ann was friends with. Ann was gone, with no sign of a struggle, and she had just been 60 feet from her front door.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
The samples were sent off to be examined, and once they returned, Nunley's hairs matched those that were found on Ann's jacket. The hairs on the floor of Nunley's mother's basement also matched samples taken from Ann. On July 28, 1989, a Jackson County grand jury indicted Roderick Nunley and Michael Taylor on first-degree murder, forcible rape, kidnapping, and armed criminal action.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Before the trial, Taylor escaped custody, and when he was apprehended by the officers, he said to them, Why didn't you let me go? You know what I'm facing. After Nunley was indicted, he agreed to a guilty plea and to go before a judge because he wanted to avoid being sentenced by a jury, even though the prosecution informed him that he could be sentenced to death.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Nunley's hearing began on January 29, 1991. He took the stand and testified that his intent was to only rob Ann of her purse. He admitted to the abduction but denied raping her. He claimed that it was only Taylor that raped Ann and that he had only pretended to in order to appease Taylor. The reason he murdered Ann was because she could identify him.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
The hearing lasted three days and Judge Alvin C. Randall sentenced Nunley to death. Ann's family was present during the hearing and it would be the first time they had heard the gruesome details of the crime. Taylor's hearing was on February 9, 1991. Just like Nunley, he opted to go before a judge and plead guilty to all charges.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
He was also warned that the judge could come back with a sentence of death. Taylor testified that he wanted to let Ann go, but he was pressured by Nunley to murder her. He described how she resisted getting into the trunk of the car and begging them to call her parents. Taylor's mother pleaded for his life, but in the end, Judge Alvin C. Randall sentenced Michael Taylor to death.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Even though Nunley and Taylor were thoroughly briefed on the fact that once they pled guilty and went before a judge, they couldn't change their minds. Despite this, in October of 1991, both Nunley and Taylor appealed their sentences, claiming that the judge was drunk and the prosecutors were racially biased.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
The defense attorneys claimed that the two men received the death penalty because Ann was white and Nunley and Taylor were black. Each appeal that was introduced was denied. Michael Taylor was executed on February 26, 2014. He had no final words. Ann's father and two of her uncles were present. On September 1, 2015, Roderick Nunley was put to death.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Ann's father and two friends were in attendance.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
After the execution, Anne's friends, many of whom are married and have children of their own now, released statements to the press and on Facebook about Anne. One described her as a shy, family-oriented girl who was nice to everyone she met and would help anyone who needed it, adding that she was an excellent student, softball player, and she loved music.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Janelle called Anne's father, Bob Harrison, who was working at the time, who in turn called the police. Before long, ground and aerial searches were launched. Michael Taylor and Roderick Nunley, friends since their teens, both had criminal backgrounds, mostly in car theft and other petty crimes. Nunley was thought to be involved in a murder, but charges were never filed.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Sometime in the early morning hours of March 22, 1989, they stole a dark blue 1984 Chevy Monte Carlo. Drinking wine coolers and smoking weed, they drove through the streets of Kansas City, stealing T-tops off of cars and trying to come up with other ways to make immediate money. While winding through the Kansas City neighborhoods, they spotted Ann waiting for the bus.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Nunley was driving and Taylor, seeing Ann's purse on the ground, told him to pull over so he could snatch it. Nunley pulled next to Ann. Taylor climbed out of the car and asked Ann for directions to an address he just made up. Leaving Anne's purse and other belongings on the ground, he grabbed her and forced her into the passenger side floor of the car. Anne did not fit the profile of a runaway.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
She was in the school band, had a boyfriend, and held a job as a bagger in a grocery store. As word got out of her disappearance, flyers were distributed, and it was breaking news on local TV and radio stations. This was a quiet and safe neighborhood and the community rallied together and created a reward fund and soon a tip line was established.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Witnesses began calling in and one tip mentioned seeing a dark Monte Carlo in the area. Nunley and Taylor drove away with Ann on the passenger side of the floor. Nunley removed his sock and it was put around her mouth to quiet her. Eventually, they ended up at Nunley's mother's house, where they pulled into the garage, which had an entrance to the basement.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Once there, Ann was blindfolded and they made her crawl on her hands and knees into that basement. Through the tip line, the police received many leads, most leading to dead ends. Through the generosity of individuals, organizations, and businesses, a reward was established of $9,000. Once inside the basement, Ann was bound with wire.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
The sock was removed and she was led into a basement where she was assaulted by Taylor. Because of her age, he was having a difficult time of it and asked Nunley to bring him some lubricant. After he was done, Nunley entered the room and attempted to assault Anne, but it is unclear whether he was able to due to him being high at the time.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Annie, as she was known by those closest to her, was a good girl.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
After they were done, they allowed Anne to put her clothes back on and they put the blindfold back on her. Taylor questioned her as to whether her family had money, and she told them that her family would pay them to get her back. All they had to do was call them.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
The two men asked her for her phone number and pretended to write it down, and of course she could not see that they weren't due to the blindfold. She must have been feeling some hope and relief that she would be able to go home to her family. They led her, crawling on her hands and knees, back to the car so that Nunley's sister, who was home at the time, wouldn't see her.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Nunley and Taylor opened the trunk and told Ann to get in, but she resisted. She told them she didn't want to get in the trunk. The men told her she had to so that she wouldn't be seen, so with their assistance, she got into the trunk. The two men discussed what they should do next. Taylor didn't want her to be able to identify them, so he told Nunley to go into the house and get a knife.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Nunley returned with a butcher knife and a smaller serrated knife. Nunley attempted to slice Anne's throat with the butcher knife, but it was too dull. So he stabbed her in the throat instead, twisting it in the process. The men took turns stabbing her in the chest and the neck. When they were done, Anne was struggling to breathe, but she was still alive.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Taylor stood there watching her suffer while Nunley returned the knives to the kitchen and disposed of the wire used to restrain her. Once Nunley got back to the car, the trunk was closed and the duo drove away.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Thank you for listening to Crimatorium, the place where crime resides. Crimatorium can also be found on YouTube.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Police were called about an abandoned vehicle.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
When officers arrived and plates were run, the owner showed up with the keys. He poured some antifreeze in the radiator, then opened the trunk to put it away. He took a step back and said, there's a body in the trunk. Officer Williams looked in the trunk and saw the body of a white, fully clothed female lying partially on her back. Her left side leaned up against the rear of the trunk.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Her left arm was extended out. Her right arm was laying across her chest. Both hands were stained with blood. A white colored button with Disneyland written on it was found underneath a denim jacket that was lying partway over Ann's arm. Ann had been wearing souvenir buttons on that jacket on the day she disappeared.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Ann's uncle, who was the captain of the Kansas City Police Department, was called to the scene to identify the body. It was Ann Marie Harrison. The vehicle was towed to the police garage with Anne's body still in place to protect any evidence. After the car was processed for fingerprints, Anne's body was taken to the medical examiner's office.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Anne had multiple stab wounds to her chest and neck area, as well as a large laceration to her throat. The car the body was located in was a blue 1984 Monte Carlo. Anne had been missing a total of 37 hours before her body was discovered. In the ensuing days of the investigation into Anne's death, the police received dozens of leads.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Several police departments in the surrounding area canvassed the neighborhoods, but came back empty-handed. Several suspects who were known for auto theft were eliminated. The investigation was extensive and the murder of Anne Harrison was big news in the area.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
On closer inspection of the Monte Carlo, they noted that the ashtray, the dome light and the radio were missing and the steering column was broken. The interior car light bulb was sitting on the rear passenger floorboard. On June 29, 1989, an anonymous call came into the tip line saying that they knew who killed Ann.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
It was 23-year-old Mike Taylor, who was at that time in the Missouri State Penitentiary for parole violation, and 24-year-old Roger Nunley, a name Roderick Nunley sometimes went by. The caller stated that Ann was murdered in Nunley's mother's basement in Grandview, Missouri, and that Nunley had slashed her throat.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
He stated that he informed the police of this crime so that he could collect the $9,000 reward. The caller said he would call back the next day, June 22nd. When he did, he identified himself as Kareem Abkar Hurley. Because Hurley knew the details of the crime that only the killer would know, the detectives convinced him to come into the station.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Hurley told detectives that when Taylor and Nunley spotted Ann, their only intent was to steal her purse. Instead, they put her in the car and drove her to Nunley's mother's house. He stated that no blood would be found in the basement because the two men killed Ann in the trunk of the car. A warrant for Nunley and Taylor's arrest was made and each would be held on a $125,000 bond.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
A warrant was also obtained to search the home of Nunley's mother, where they swept the carpet and took photographs. Taylor was locked up at this time, so locating him wouldn't be a problem. However, it was unknown where Nunley was. Officers discovered that Nunley, who worked as a housekeeper at Baptist Memorial Hospital, failed to return to work after June 21st.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Nunley's supervisor provided his contact information to the officers. They learned that Nunley was behind in his car payments and the credit company was trying to locate him and the car so they could tow it away. They would let officers know if they located Nunley. Officers visited Taylor in prison and confronted him about what Hurley had told them.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Taylor went silent, then asked if he could call his mother. Taylor told his mother that he was being questioned about a rape and a murder, and after a few minutes of speaking, he told her he loved her and hung up. Taylor then said that his mother told him that if he did this, to tell the truth.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
He then proceeded to tell the officers that he and Nunley were on a drug binge that night, and once Ann was spotted, Nunley kidnapped Ann by putting her over his shoulder and shoving her in the car. He described blindfolding her with a sock that Nunley had removed from his foot once she was in the car. When they got to the basement of the house, her hands and feet were tied with a cable wire.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
On the morning of March 22, 1989, Ann walked to the end of her driveway a little before 7 a.m., set her purse, flute, and backpack on the ground, and waited for her school bus to arrive. That morning, she was wearing her favorite jean jacket, adorned with souvenir pins, pink slacks, and matching socks.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
According to Taylor, Nunley removed Ann's clothes at some point and Ann was crying. He said Nunley tried to keep her quiet and in Taylor's words, he had intercourse with her. When Nunley asked Taylor if he wanted to do the same, Taylor claimed that he declined. On second thought, he decided to take his turn but claimed he didn't finish the act.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
After they were done with their assault, they untied Ann and allowed her to put her clothes back on. Ann told them to call her parents who would give them money. The two men gave her hope that they were going to call them by pretending to write down the phone number she gave them.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
The sock was then placed around Anne's face and she was led back to the car, crawling on her hands and knees, where they made her get into the trunk. Taylor stood over Anne and watched her as Nunley went into the house and retrieved a butcher knife and a serrated knife. He drew a picture of what the knives looked like.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Taylor claimed that Nunley grabbed Anne by the hair and tried to slit her throat with a butcher knife, but because it was dull, it didn't work. Nunley gave up on slashing her throat. He turned to stabbing her in the throat until it went all the way through. Nunley then stabbed Anne in the chest and again in the neck, then encouraged Taylor to do the same.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Taylor stated that he said, nah, that's just crazy, man. But then he thought, well, we're in this together. So he started stabbing her too. Taylor watched as Ann's eyes rolled into the back of her head and she was struggling to breathe. The trunk was closed and the two men drove off in the car with Ann still in the trunk.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
It would later be determined that Ann was conscious for about 15 minutes and stayed alive for two hours after her attack. The interview was taped and the officers collected hair and blood samples before they left.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
It wasn't long before Taylor's fellow inmates caught word of what he was accused of and they attacked and raped him so violently that he required surgery and 80 sutures to repair the damage. A second search warrant was issued for Nunley's mother's house and when officers knocked on the door, nobody answered, so they made entry by removing a window.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
Once inside, they made their way upstairs, where they discovered Nunley's sister and mother. His sister stated that Nunley couldn't have been involved because she was at home at the time and didn't hear or see anything. The officers found and removed two knives that matched the description given by Taylor. They swept the floor and photographed the entire basement.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
On July 8, 1989, officers received a tip that Nunley had been spotted near Troost Lake and were dispatched to the area where one of the officers spotted him. As the officers approached Nunley, he took off on foot between some houses in the area. After some time, the officers caught up to him and he identified himself as Roderick Nunley.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
He was transported to the police station, booked, and interrogated. The officer started off by telling him that Taylor had confessed to everything. Nunley asked for video proof of this. Nunley watched the video of Taylor not only divulging the events of that day, but putting the blame on Nunley.
Crimeatorium
The Tragic Case of Ann Marie Harrison: A Raytown Teen's Story.
This infuriated him, and he echoed the tale that Taylor had confessed to earlier, only he put the blame on Taylor. It was painful for officers to listen to the physical, mental, and psychological torture Ann went through that day at the hands of these two men. Nunley waived his rights and allowed the officers to take samples of his hair and blood.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, how long have you had that construction company?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Going on three years. Okay, and do you have other employees? Yes. Okay, how many? Right now we have six full-time employees. Do you have siblings? I do. Two brothers, Dalton and Randy. And is Dalton older or younger? Dalton's younger. He's three years younger than me. And how about Randy? Randy's three years younger than him, so six years younger than me. So you're the oldest of the boys?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yep. Prior to her death, Mr. Jack, did you know Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, I knew her from just being my brother's girlfriend, and she'd come to family events and got to know her a little bit more whenever she started living with us part-time when Dalton moved in with me and my wife. So, yeah. How long had Dalton lived with you and Allie prior to July of 2018? Do you remember?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, we bought the house in October, and he moved in pretty much as soon as we bought the house. We did some small remodel projects before he moved in, but shortly after we moved in, he moved in with us as well.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He moved in October of 2017? Mm-hmm. Is that a yes? Yes. All right. And did you get to know Molly over that time period while she and Dalton dated?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
yeah i mean that was probably you know whenever they when she lived with us that was the busiest time of year for me so i wasn't at home all the time but um they would eat dinner with us occasionally their room was upstairs and our room was downstairs so we kind of kept our separate areas they were constantly in you know in their room and stuff so but we ate dinner together got to know her pretty well got to know her family a little bit and stuff i knew her brothers from sports and i coached him and stuff so
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So where were you employed in the summer of 2018?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was self-employed at that time. I was working on a basement finish job. We were finishing out a basement over a new house over in Newton at that time. So did you own your own construction business back in 2018?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yep, I did. All right. And the week of July 16th, which would include July 18th, where were you physically located?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I would go to the job site in Newton, and my wife, who worked for a seed corn company, was staying up in Ames as a field inspector at a hotel there with the rest of her colleagues, and so I would go up there and stay with her in those couple of days during that week. Okay.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We'll talk to you a little bit more in detail about what you were doing that week. But as of July of 2018, did you know any person named Christian Bahena Rivera?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Have you ever met anyone that you recall that had that name? No. To your knowledge, Mr. Jack, had Dalton Jack or Molly Tibbetts ever mentioned the name Christian Bahena Rivera? No. Let's talk more specifically about the week of July 18th, okay? Yep. So I know you've told us you were working, but I want to direct your attention back to that week.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When was it that you left town to go to Newton to work on this construction job that you've already described?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
was working there every day we'd been we were probably midway through the process of that remodel or that finish in that basement so I was going there every day for work I'm even weeks before that and weeks after that okay so were you traveling to Newton and then coming home in the evening or did you stay over that week
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That week I stayed those two days with my wife in Ames, but primarily I was coming home in the weeks prior. I mean, if I had a softball game, I'd come back home for softball, which was Mondays and Fridays, but that week I was staying with my wife in Ames.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Committed as follows. Said defendant, on or about July 18, 2018, in Poweshiek County, Iowa, did murder Molly Tibbetts in violation of Iowa Code Section 707.1 and 707.2, Subsection 1, Subsection A. A true information. Defendant entered a not guilty plea to the charge. Thank you, Mr. Claymore.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What was the plan with regard to your house and who was going to be there while you were gone?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, the plan was for Molly to watch the dogs. I didn't know until Monday night that Dalton wasn't going to be, he was traveling to Dubuque, which for him to be on the road was pretty common at that time. So all I asked Molly to do was just let the dogs in and out. So what was the practice with the dogs?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Whenever you, when there was nobody home, where would you put them?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We'd put them in the basement, and the reason we did that is we have an old four-square farmhouse, and the basement's just a regular four-square farmhouse basement, concrete floor, but it's not finished, and then all the utilities and stuff are down there.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Toby, our younger dog, had epilepsy, and so if he would have a seizure episode and we were not around, he would soil himself, and we didn't want that up above in the living space. So to prevent any of that big messes to clean up, we'd put them in the basement, So what was the plan that week, then, with regard to you and Dalton and Molly? What were the arrangements that were made?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I mean, there wasn't any drawn-out, really, arrangements. It's just that I asked Molly to let the dogs out while I was gone and just told her I was staying with Allie and Ames. That was really the only, you know, it wasn't a formal arrangement by any means, but that was just kind of what we decided upon just because I was going to be gone. And with Dalton being out of town, she had no problem.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She had some stuff there anyways, so it wasn't a big inconvenience for her to come let them out. When was the last time that you saw Molly Tibbetts alive? Monday. I don't remember the day, whatever that Monday was before she went missing. Okay.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So that would have been July 16th if Wednesday, July 18th was when she went missing.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
16th, yeah. So how was it that you got to Newton? I drove there. All right, did you have any communication at all, Mr. Jack, on Monday or Tuesday with Molly Tibbetts that you have not already described to us?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you have any communication with your little brother, Dalton Jack, on Monday or Tuesday that you haven't already told us? No. By the way, when did he tell you that he was going to be working in Dubuque?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I can't remember exactly. It had probably been Tuesday, because that was the day I was going to go up to see Allie, to be sure. I wanted to be sure the dogs were going to be taken care of.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And was it your understanding that Dalton then was going to be out of town for the remainder of the week? Right, he said he was going to be out of town for, it might have been a couple weeks, so. I want to now direct your attention to Thursday, July 19th of 2018. Did you receive any contact from Dalton Jack?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He called me right as I was wrapping up with work for the day and just asked me to, when I got home, to check on Molly and to see what was going on, said he hadn't heard from her and that she called in sick for work. Or that she hadn't called in sick, but that she hadn't been at work and that work called him to see where she was at. All right.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So do you remember when you got that phone call from Dalton Jack? Yeah, I was on the job site at noon. It was about 4.30 in the afternoon because that's about the time we always wrap up every day.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And was that the first that you had heard that Molly Tibbetts may be missing? Yes, yeah. And that was from Dalton? From Dalton. At the time, what were your plans on that Thursday at 4.30? Were you going to come home that evening? What were your plans?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, I had to go help Allie with her car because she forgot her car keys. But my plan was still to come home afterwards, yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So after receiving this communication from Dalton Jack that Molly had not been heard from, did you get any other phone call from him between helping Allie get her phone keys and driving home to Brooklyn?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Any text messages or phone calls, anything like that? I'm not suggesting there are, but any communications you can remember? No, not that I can remember. All right, so after receiving this communication from Dalton Jack, what did you and Allie then do?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So I got home, and as I'm pulling into town, two of her friends were driving around and kind of half flagged me down and just asked me if I'd seen her. And I said I hadn't seen her, but I'm going to the house right now to check on her. At that point, I was still assuming that she'd probably just be there or whatever. You know, I didn't know her. Went in the house. She wasn't there.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Hang on just a second.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'll get to that, okay? So the two friends, where was it they flagged you down?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
that would be north orchard street which is just around the corner from my house okay so so they were on this on the sidewalk or street no they were driving they were in a car i got you yeah okay so um and then you stopped and talked to them yeah and after that you went where went back to the house to or went to the house so whenever you arrived back at 622 west des moines do you remember what time you got there
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Claver, on behalf of the state of Iowa, you may give your opening.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
not the exact time no probably if i left newton and help out with her car like six o'clock but it was still light outside still light outside in the middle of summer so whenever you arrived back at 622 west des moines was anyone else present no and did you go into the house yes all right mr jack whenever you went into the house did you notice anything unusual about
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you, Your Honor. Molly Tibbetts. This case is her story. This case is the story of Molly's disappearance and the story of Molly's murder. Molly Tibbetts was 19 years old, going into her sophomore year at the University of Iowa. She was home for the summer, and home for Molly was Brooklyn, Iowa, a town of about 1,400 people in Poweshiek County.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
any entryway, was there any sign of that was unusual?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Any broken locks, broken windows, anything like that? Nope. Okay. And how was it that you got into your house that day, if you can recall? Well, I just walked in the door. We don't lock the doors in our small town, so. Okay. So the door wasn't even locked? No. Okay. So whenever you walk in, anything out of the ordinary in the house that you saw? No. Everything pretty much just as we left it.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Where were the dogs? The dogs were in the basement.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was that one of the first things that you did whenever you got into the house was to get the dogs? Yep. Pretty much anytime anybody comes home, you go down there and get them, you know, let them upstairs.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you happen to go up to the room that Molly shared with Dalton whenever she was with him? Yeah, I went up there to check and see if she was in there and she wasn't in there.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
after checking the house did you check with any of your neighbors to see if they had seen or heard anything yes I went over to the neighbors to the West and just checked and see if they had heard or seen anything who did you talk to do you recall Jeff and Michelle Hall okay
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Had they seen or heard anything? No. Did you talk to other neighbors or other people in the area?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, I went a couple blocks away to another neighbor. So who was it? What was his name? Nate Hopwood. And did you learn any information from Nate Hopwood? Well, we asked about the cameras, and he said to us that they were not working because of a storm. What cameras? There's a couple cameras on the outside.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One kind of like faces the road and the parking lot on one side, and that's the one we were kind of hoping to get access to. That's the only one I could see from my house. But those were not operative?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, according to him. Did Nate Hopp could indicate he had seen Molly running the evening before? I can't remember. Okay.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is there anybody else that you talked to? Just at that point, Molly's friends were over there, and we're kind of brainstorming, trying to figure out where she might be. And then at some point, after kind of doing our best to track her down, we decided just to call law enforcement.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So how many of Molly's friends had come over to your house to assist you in trying to find her?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The two girls were there pretty much right away, but then it seemed like there was other kids just kept showing up. I mean, there was two other boys I know driving around in a truck and talking to people, but I don't remember how many exactly came over, but there was several. Did you start to become worried?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was worried just that I didn't have any inkling of what happened, but I was kind of worried that she wasn't answering her phone and didn't have contact. There was a big storm the day before, like a tornado that went through Marshalltown, so we didn't know if maybe it's something that had something to do with it.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That was honestly my first thought was that maybe she got caught in the storm or something.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
While you were home and after you had checked with the neighbors to see if they'd seen anything... Did Allie come over? Yeah, she came home a couple hours later.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She came back from Ames. Did you ever call Molly's phone? Oh, we called it a whole bunch of times, you know, just always trying to get through to her. And you know her friends did the same thing? Yes. We tried Facebook, Snapchat, everything. And no response? No response.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, before we finish this up, Mr. Jack, were you familiar, because Molly had stayed with you, with what her running habits were?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
not exactly like where she went but I know she ran all the time and when I would see her generally be like coming back home from work I'd see her running down the street parallel with where we live and then I'd see her scatterings around town I mean she ran pretty much everywhere so was Molly a runner and in high school yeah she was in track and cross country I think
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And generally speaking, what would Molly wear whenever you would see her go out for runs?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Shorts, jogging shoes, either like a tank top or a sports bra. And she always had her like the iPod thing that holds her phone for music and stuff.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Prior to going to your job in Newton this week that included July 18th of 2018, did you notice anything unusual in the relationship between Dalton Jack and Molly Tibbetts? No. Did they seem to be getting along? Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't think she would be staying at our house if they weren't getting along.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. That's all the questions I have for Mr. Jack. Thank you.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you, Mr. Brown. Defense may cross-examine.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sir, I've got a few questions for you. It sounds like when you heard about Molly Tippett being missing that it concerned you. Is that right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Poweshiek County is located about midway between Des Moines and Iowa City. And on July 18, 2018, Molly was house-sitting for her boyfriend, Dalton Jack, and his brother, Blake. They resided at 622 West Des Moines Street in Brooklyn. She was also taking care of the dogs while Dalton and Blake were out of town working. They worked construction. Dalton was in Dubuque, Blake was in Ames.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You remember that phone call?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
From Dalton, yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You remember where you were?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I was in Newton.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you get a hit in your stomach right away when you heard that?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I mean, I was just a little bit nervous for him, but wasn't thinking it was anything to be terribly concerned about until I got home.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You'd agree with me that Molly isn't the type of person that would just go off the radar for a day or two.
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Absolutely not. She was always attached to her phone.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She took pride in showing up to work every day. Is that right?
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Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She was a very conscientious employee at the daycare that she worked at. Is that right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She enjoyed her job and enjoyed being a presence in her children's life or not her children, but the children's life. Is that right?
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Yep.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And so it was unusual that she would just not show up to work. Is that correct?
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Correct.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, it sounds like just about as soon as you found out about this, you tried to get yourself back to Brooklyn. Is that correct?
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Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The first thing that was done is a group of friends kind of gathered together to see if they could locate Molly. Is that right?
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When I got back, yeah.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You talked about Facebook and Snapchat and different location ways to track her. Is that right?
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Yeah.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't do Snapchat, but if you could enlighten me a little bit, there's something that's called location services. Is that right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
As far as the map thing, yeah.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Essentially, if you are a friend or an acquaintance on Snapchat, you can see that person's location. Is that correct?
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Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you use Snapchat at that point in time?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I have Snapchat, but I don't think I had her as a friend, but her friends that were with us did.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And so one of the first things that was done is to kind of look and see if they could see Molly's location. Is that correct?
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Yep, yep.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because it would be pretty usual that their friends would be able to see exactly where she was. Is that right?
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Yeah, I would think so. I mean, it just depends on whether you have the ghost mode on or whatever, but yeah.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, as soon as you were not able to find Molly, the police were called, is that correct?
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Correct.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You were asked to give a couple of different interviews, is that right?
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Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I think on July 20th, so the day after she went missing, you were asked to interview, is that correct?
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Correct.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Where was that interview at?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
One was down at the municipal building in Brooklyn and the other was at the fire department in Brooklyn.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And those are pretty soon after Molly went missing, is that correct?
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Yeah, one was like the day or day after, and then the next one was later on in the week after we'd been searching for a while.
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Be fair to say that you were cooperative with any investigation techniques that law enforcement wanted to utilize with you, is that right? Yes. So if they wanted you to come in for another interview, you were happy to do that, is that right? Yes. They also asked you to do a polygraph, is that right? I'm not a judge.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
you
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is state.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sir, were you ever asked to give a swab of your DNA?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, not that I can think of.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Another thing that law enforcement did is they asked for different devices that you had. Is that right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you were cooperative with providing those devices to law enforcement. Is that right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In fact, I think you said, here's my cell phone. Take it and you can run anything on it that you need. Is that right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So anything, any messages or anything that were on that phone were voluntarily provided to law enforcement, is that correct?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You and Dalton are both avid hunters, is that right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What do you hunt?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Deer, pheasants, turkeys, primarily.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Does Dalton also hunt deer? Yes. Pheasants?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Turkeys?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yep.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You two hunt together? Yes. I would assume that it's not unusual for your home to have guns that you use to hunt with, is that correct?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What kind of guns would those be?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Rifles and shotguns.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You also had a .357 at your home, is that right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yep.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Another thing, you don't use the knives, I guess, in hunting, but if you shoot a deer, you would use the knife to gut the deer, is that right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yep, field dress it, yep.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would it be fair to say that you've got several different knives in your residence?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Same with Dalton?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Dalton had a couple, yeah.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You two would generally hunt together fairly regularly, is that right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
During season, I mean, we bow hunted together. That was kind of our favorite thing to do. And then we'd shotgun hunt with our family. We have a group that goes every first season shotgun.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Molly and Dalton did have their problems, isn't that right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not that I'm aware of.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There was issues with him cheating on her with another woman?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not that I'm aware of.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you're not aware of any problems involving that?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, but I'm sure he wouldn't be the first 18-year-old to cheat on his girlfriend.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Dalton was also known for having some anger problems.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can you elaborate on that?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He was known to get into fights at school? No.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You don't know anything about Dalton having any anger problems?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No. State's next witness is Dalton Jack. Can you please state your name for the record? I am Dalton Jack. And currently, Mr. Jack, how are you employed? I am employed by the United States military in the Army. Okay, what is your current duty station with the Army? Fort Bragg, North Carolina. And in what branch of the Army, or what's your assignment within the Army?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Molly was an avid runner, and she ran cross country and track in high school. On July 18th, 2018, she put on her multicolored neon running shoes, and left the house. It was customary for Molly to run in the evenings, and that's what she did on July 18th. And she had her usual routes. One of those routes took her out of town on a gravel road on 385th Avenue.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I am in the 82nd Airborne Division as a sergeant, team leader. Say that again? Team leader, I guess. View my official M2 position.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When did you join the Army? November of 2018. November 6th is my official date. And whenever you joined the Army, obviously you went to basic training, right? Yes. When was it that you were assigned to the 82nd Airborne Division in Fort Bragg? April of 2019. What's your job within the military?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What do you do day to day? I'm a team leader, so I have four soldiers underneath me that I take care of and lead pretty much.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How old are you? I am 23 years old. Tell the jury where it is, Mr. Jack, that you grew up. I grew up in Brooklyn, Iowa. Do you live anywhere else other than Brooklyn, Iowa, growing up?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There was like a year and a half or so that we lived in Linville, Iowa, but we continued to go to Brooklyn schools.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
2016.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Your brother is Blake? Yes. You have another brother, correct? Yes. What's his name? Randy. And what's your parents' names? Brian and Cindy. Growing up, Mr. Jack, did you participate in sports in high school? Yes. Whenever you were in high school, did you know Molly Tibbetts? Yes, I did. All right. Did you date at all while you were in high school? No, we didn't.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, yeah, we started dating my senior year after a football game. Okay. And where was Molly Tibbetts in relation to your high school class? What class was she in? She was one grade below mine. How long had you known Molly Tibbetts while you were in high school? Did you know her all her life? I mean, everybody knows each other in Brooklyn High School.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We graduated with a class of like 50 people, so. So everybody knows everybody. Yeah.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Before we begin, I want to take a moment to reflect on the life of Molly Tibbetts, a young woman whose light touched everyone she met. Molly Cecilia Tibbetts was born on May 8, 1998, in San Francisco, California, and raised in both San Francisco and Brooklyn, Iowa.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
after graduation uh mr jack what did you do with regard to school i went to hawkeye community college for a year and then decided that wasn't for me pretty much where is hawkeye community college it is in waterloo iowa and what did you study there generally uh sustainable construction and design so you have the same interest in construction as your brother blake yes
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What are your plans, by the way, once you get out? Are you going to get out of the Army at some point in time? Do you have plans to come back to Iowa? I don't know if I'm going to get out of the Army anytime soon, so I haven't really thought about it. Okay. So the Army right now is your career? Yes. After your year at Hawkeye Community College, what did you decide to do with regard to schooling?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I elected to not go back to school and instead go to work. And whenever you came back from college, where did you move to? I moved back to Brooklyn, Iowa, and then started working at Jasper Construction. So where did you live then when you moved back to Brooklyn? Initially, when I moved back, I lived with my parents. And then where did you move to? I moved to 622 West Des Moines with Blake.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Moved in with your brother? Yes. All right. You had mentioned earlier that you had first started dating Molly Tibbetts in high school. Is that right? Yes. How long did you guys date continuously? About three years. Was there any breakups in that three years? No. I'm going to show you a photo I've shown you before. What's on the screen, Mr. Jack, is state's exhibit number one. Who is that person?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That is Molly. And this picture, do you actually recognize this photo? Yes, I'm actually standing behind the camera when she took this. Okay. So is this one of her senior pictures? Yes. Is this the way Molly appeared? This may be a little bit younger, but just before her death? Yes. So after you graduated high school and went to Hawkeye, you and Molly continue to date? Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you have a relationship with Molly's parents? I knew them, yeah. Okay.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And would you see them often whenever they were around Molly? Before this whole situation happened, I'd never met Rob before in my life, but I'd met Laura, yes. Okay, Rob didn't live in Iowa, is that right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, he lived in California. Okay, and Laura, who is Molly's mother, still lived in Brooklyn? Yes. So you would obviously see her more frequently? Yes. Mr. Jack, whenever you and Molly were seeing each other, tell us how you would typically communicate. We would communicate through Snapchat and text messages. And did you use both of those platforms fairly often? Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you know Molly's phone number back in July of 2018? Yes. Can you tell us what it is? 641-510-1065. You still remember that? Yes. All right. Were there any other ways that you would communicate with her, like on Twitter, Facebook, or any of those other platforms? I don't have any of those other platforms. How would you describe Molly's personality? She was always happy, bubbly, goofy.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's the route she took on July 18th, 2018. Shortly before 8 p.m. that night, Christina Stewart was traveling to her parents' farm to tend the horses. And she passed Molly on that road. Christina Stewart had known Molly since Molly was a small child. And Christina Stewart was a hair stylist in town. She'd cut Molly's hair. She recognized Molly.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She just liked to have fun pretty much, I guess. And having spent that time around Molly, the three years that you described to us, did you learn what her running habits were? Yes. And tell us about those.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She would run pretty much anywhere from one to six miles almost every day, like barring some extreme weather, she would go on a run every day.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And typically would she run at any particular time of day? She'd run later in the evening when it started to get cooler. And was that particularly the so whenever summer was in full swing? Yes. Were you familiar with the type of clothing or equipment that she would run with? Yes, she would. Hang on just a second. As it relates to her clothing, typically what type of clothes would she run in?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She would run in shorts and a sports bra sometimes, like one of those cut-off muscle shirts, I guess, that she stole from my closet. And then an armband to keep her phone in, and then she had some wireless earphones for music.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Those wireless earphones, were those a gift from you? Yes. What would she do with her hair, typically? Wear it up. Wear it up how? Like a ponytail, I suppose. Would she ever wear any type of headband or headgear? Yeah, sometimes. I know she had some, but... Okay, that's fine. Did she also have any other type of timing devices that she would wear with her? She wore a Fitbit as well. All right.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Jack, I want to direct your attention back to the week that includes Wednesday, July 18th of 2018. You remember that week. Is that right? Yes. During that time frame, where were you working? I was working in Dubuque, Iowa. Okay, for who? Jasper Construction. And tell us what type of construction that Jasper does. Civil construction, roads and bridges.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, and how long had you been working for them? About two years. Okay, have you been working full or part-time? I've been working full-time. Was this both during and after you left Hawkeye Community College?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I worked for them part-time during and then after I went back to full-time, but I worked for them full-time this summer before I went to Hawkeye as well.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And typically with Jasper construction, the jobs, would they require travel?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would they require overnight stays? Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What other places would Jasper have sent you other than Dubuque? I went down to pretty much the Missouri border and we built a bridge down there. Burlington, been down there a few times, and Des Moines all the time, and then there were some other ones, but they escaped my memory right now, I apologize.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the week that would have included Wednesday, July 18th, where was the job? It was in Dubuque. Okay. So would you have gone with a crew of people? Yes. All right. The week that included July 18th, Wednesday, July 18th, did you leave?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
to go to a job near dubuque yes i did okay what day of the week did you leave monday okay so monday would be july 16th of 2018. checks out yes all right and how was it that you got to dubuque i drove my own personal vehicle up there did anyone else from jasper construction or any other person for that matter go with you Yes, Luis, and I can't remember his last name, I'm sorry.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He rode with me up there. He was one of your coworkers? Yes. And what time would you have arrived Monday in Dubuque, if you recall?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, we would have left at like 3 in the morning, so like 5.30, 6. Okay.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And was it Monday or Tuesday that you went up to Dubuque? Do you remember? Went up on Monday. Okay. Did you work then all day Monday? Yes. And where was it that you stayed in Dubuque, if you recall? I don't recall the name of it, but it was a motel in Dubuque. And would the rest of the road crew have stayed there with you? Yes. Who was your job supervisor, do you recall? Nick Wilson.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
While you were in Dubuque, did you have communication with Molly Tibbetts? Yes. How frequently? As frequently as I looked at my phone, I suppose. Even while you were working on the job, did you have your cell phone with you? Yes. Would you communicate with Molly by text or Snapchat while you were working?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, depending on what I was doing.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Where was Molly working at the time? She was working for a daycare in Grinnell. Where specifically in Grinnell? Do you remember? The Grinnell Hospital. And was that full-time work for her? Yes. So while you were in Dubuque, where was your brother Blake?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And aside from Molly's killer, Christina Stewart was the last person to see Molly alive. Molly didn't show up for work the next day. She worked at a daycare in Grinnell, which was a few miles from Brooklyn. She'd worked there the summer before. And this was unusual for Molly. She was a no-call and a no-show. Her family hadn't been in touch with her the night before or that morning.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Blake would have been at his own job site in I.E. Newton? I think it was Newton.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. He wasn't in Brooklyn? No. And where was Molly staying, if you know? Molly would have been staying at my brother's house. It was part of her... I wouldn't say really a job, but we'll call it that, to help take care of the dogs? Yes. And was she house-sitting, for lack of a better term? For lack of a better term, yes. So I want to now direct your attention to Wednesday, July 18th.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What was your work day like on that, if you remember?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
On Wednesday, same old show up, and then we were doing a bridge replacement, not a bridge replacement, a joint replacement on the bridge that goes over the Mississippi River. So it was actually we were forming at the time. Everything was already broken out. We were setting up forms to repour those joints. So you're talking about pouring concrete?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. Okay. So do you remember about what time you would have gotten to work on Wednesday, July 18th? 5.30 or 6, just like every other day. Okay. So early in the morning? Yes. Was there some weather issues on July 18th? No, not on the 18th. Okay. Were there weather issues at other times during the week while you were on that job? On the 19th, we got rained out.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So on the 18th, do you remember what time you got back from work? About 6 at night, 6 p.m. What did you do... whenever you got back to the hotel in Dubuque on July 18th around 6 p.m.? Just drank beers with the guys and hung out. Did you come back to Brooklyn for any reason? No. Would you have even had a chance to really do that? No.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you have any communication directly with Molly on the evening of July 18th of 2018? No. I had Snapchatted her, but she had not replied. Okay. So do you remember when you sent her a Snapchat? I don't remember the exact time of when I sent her a Snapchat. What time would you have gone to bed on July 18th of 2018? Relatively early, granted how early we woke up in the morning.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, and did you receive a Snapchat from Molly that evening? The last Snapchat that I received from her? Yeah. When did you actually open that Snapchat?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
the like the next day okay and so you can a snapchat describe to the jury how that works whenever you receive a snapchat from someone how is it that you receive that message and how do you open it snapchat you get to open it and then it's set on a timer as soon as like 10 seconds or whatever the person that sent it elapses it just disappears and you can't reopen it
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And whatever Snapchat you received from Molly, whatever time it was, had it been sent earlier? Yes. Did you just ignore the message, or did you not get it, or can you explain that for us? I probably just didn't even look at my phone. Okay. What were you doing on the evening of July 18th after you got back to the hotel?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Like I said, we was drinking beers with the friends of the crew and we were all hanging out. Okay. So whenever you're hanging out, are you doing other things? Yeah. We were playing like yard games. Okay. And whenever you're talking about how many people on the crew were there that would have been around you? the evening of July 18th.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There was actually two crews working in conjunction on that job, so it would have been like 15, 20 people or something like that. And were all 15 or 20 of the crew out at the motel having fun and doing these types of things that you described? Not every single one of them, but there was a good probably 10 or 12 of us out there. Okay.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was there any bad weather on the evening of July 18th that would have rained out that party at all? Not that I remember, no. Okay. And do you remember what time you went to bed on July 18th of 2018? I do not remember what time I went to bed. Okay. Did you ever leave Dubuque? No. All right. Would you have had a roommate while you were at the hotel in Dubuque? Yes. Do you know who that is?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Dalton Jack hadn't been in touch with her. And they began to call each other to find out where Molly was. They began to get worried. And that's when they contacted law enforcement. And that kicked off an exhaustive, intensive investigation spanning nearly five weeks.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Brandon Gordy. Other than what you've described, Mr. Jack, did you have any other communication with Molly directly? No. The next day, so Thursday, let's move to that, July 19th, did you send Molly a message in the morning?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I sent her the same good morning message that I always send her. And what is that good morning message? Good morning, beautiful.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Like a kissy face or something like that. Okay. What platform would you have used to send that information? I would have texted that. Okay. Did you receive any response from her? No. Was that unusual? I didn't even notice. Okay. So you sent her the message, and then where'd you go? To work. Before we move on, I wanted to step back to the night before, okay? Let's talk about that.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
On Wednesday night, did you open a Snapchat from Molly Tibbetts? Do you recall doing that? I don't remember, no. Do you remember telling the police that you opened it at a certain time? No. Okay. So would reviewing – I had you review your reports prior to testifying. Is that right? Yes. Would reviewing those reports help refresh your memory? Yes. All right. May I approach to do that, please?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You may. Thank you. This is page six, third – fourth paragraph. Does that help refresh your memory? Yes. Okay. So I'll ask again, Mr. Jack, had you opened a Snapchat from Molly on July 18th, Wednesday of 2018? Yes. And what time did you open it? 10.30 p.m. Okay. Was that the last communication that you would have observed from Molly Tibbetts? Yes. All right. Now, 10.30 p.m.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
does not mean that's when you received the Snapchat, correct? Correct. All right. That's just when you opened it. Yes. Do you recall when you received that Snapchat from her? I do not. Do you remember the content of it?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
yeah it was uh just a face with her caption and uh i don't remember what the caption said okay and could you tell from the photo what location molly was in uh in that photo on the snapchat uh it appeared she was in the living room of the uh blake's house okay so not outside no inside yes All right, let's go back then now to July 19th of 2018, which was Thursday.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you receive any communication from Molly Tibbetts on that Thursday? No. Describe for the jury, please, what your work day was on Thursday.
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Our work day was we showed up, and then we were forming the joints, still continuing to do that. And then we ended up getting rained out because we had some pretty inclement weather there.
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Okay. So when did you get rained out on Thursday? Do you recall the time? I'm not for sure on this, but I think it was around noon-ish. All right. And was the plan to stay and work Thursday if you could or Friday if you could? I think we waited it out for like 15 minutes and then we just went back to the motel. And that's what usually happens with...
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crews in your type of work, weather interrupts it, correct? Yes. All right. Was the plan to come back to the job site and keep working on Friday the next day?
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There were hundreds of people involved, volunteers, local law enforcement, fire departments, the DCI, FBI, and even Homeland Security. And they canvassed the entire town of Brooklyn. They searched nearby fields and waterways, ditches, ponds, The sheriff even went up in a helicopter to search some of the local fields.
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Yes.
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Okay. So no plans to come home on Thursday, correct? No. All right. Did you receive at some point in time a call from one of Molly's friends?
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Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you learn some information from that that caused you to become worried? Yes. What was it?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I received a call from Emily Fenner, one of her coworkers at the daycare, and she said that Molly had not called or showed up for work.
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And do you remember about what time you received that communication? 4.30 maybe? So it was in the afternoon? Yes. Prior to receiving that contact from Ms. Fenner, had you made other attempts to try to reach Molly Tibbetts on Thursday, July 19th? No, I was asleep. I was taking a nap. Because you'd been up early? Yes. Once you got that call from, or that communication from Ms.
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Finner, did you become worried? Yes. And what did you do as a result of that?
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I contacted pretty much everybody that I could think of to try to get a hold of Molly as well, as well as I called her own cell phone multiple times.
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And had anybody had any success? Nobody had any success. Do you remember how many, I won't ask you who, but do you remember how many phone calls or texts that you made in an attempt to try to find where Molly was at? I do not remember the number, but it was a lot.
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Mr. Brown, let me jump in and stop you there. We're due for a recess.
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Okay.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Members of the jury, we'll take a 15-minute recess at this time.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Dalton, or Mr. Jack, we were just discussing the day, July 19th of 2018, the day that you came home. All right, so what were the circumstances whenever you left your job? Can you just describe what you told your boss, and how was it that you got back to Brooklyn?
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I was just outright with him. I told him that I hadn't heard from Molly in a while, and I'm trying to get other people to find her, and they can't find her, and I just drove my own POV back to Brooklyn.
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Your POV being?
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Oh, my personally owned vehicle, sorry, my truck.
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Did anyone come back with you from Dubuque? No. All right. And do you remember about what time it was that you got home on July 19th, 2018 on Thursday? It was dark. I'd say about 9 p.m. Okay. Describe where you went whenever you got home. I went straight to the house. Okay. To 622 West Des Moines?
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Yes. To my brother's house.
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All right. And describe what you saw there at the house whenever you arrived. There was like a crowd on the lawn.
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An officer was already there taking statements from people. Did you talk to the police? Yes.
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Do you remember the officer that you spoke to? Matt Simpson. Matt Simpson. Is he a sheriff's deputy in Poweshiek County? Yes. Did you make any other attempts on that evening to contact Molly? Yes. What did you do? Called her more, texted her more. Whenever you would call her, would you get voicemail?
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No.
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Would you get anything?
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No.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Did you have any contact with Molly Tibbetts? No. The following day, did you make attempts to contact her? I don't remember. Did you ever join in the search for Molly? Can you describe what it was that you did?
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Me and my brother actually went out that night, and we drove around for a long time, and then we were just kind of checking everywhere that we can do. But then there was a more organized search put on by, like, the fire department and the police department before the whole thing went through. And then we, like, sectored out the city and all that fun stuff. Okay. Were you a part of that at all?
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Yes.
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Okay. So you joined in to assist? Yes. All right. Did you go back to work at Jasper during the time frame that Molly was missing? No. Okay. Did they give you the time off because of that? Yes. At this time, I don't have any further questions of Dalton Jack. Thank you.
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Defensively cross-examined. Mr. Jack, good morning.
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How long is it, again, since you've been in the Army?
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I've been in the Army for almost three years now.
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What was the date you joined?
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November 6, 2018.
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So three months after Molly's discovery, right?
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Correct.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So did you ever go back to Jasper Construction to work?
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Yes.
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What was the decision to go to the Army based upon?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And as the hours turned into days and days into weeks, every lead they pursued came up empty. After four weeks, they were no closer to finding Molly than when they started.
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I wanted to pretty much leave for a while. Why? Because I grew up there. She grew up there. It's where we kind of built our relationship, and now she was gone.
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You were heartbroken?
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Yes.
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Molly was your true love, right? I would say so, yes. You had planned on marrying this woman, right? Yes. And you were devoted to Molly, right? Yes. People described it as a true love story, right? Yes. Is that how you felt about her?
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Yes.
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You've told the jury here today about your activities in the days leading up to Molly's disappearance, and I want to explore those a little bit. If I understand you correctly, your testimony today is that on the night of Molly's disappearance, you were in your hotel room for a bit and then hanging out with the boys, drinking beers, playing games, right? Correct.
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And that's your testimony today, correct? Yes. We're clear on that?
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Yes.
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That's not always the story you've given to the police, though, is it?
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I don't know.
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Well, did you not tell the police in a previous interview that you spent the night in your room watching movies? That was when I was, yes. Okay. Do you recall giving that statement? Yes. Okay. When did you give that statement to police? I don't know the exact time or date that I gave that statement. Well, let's come at it this way. How many times were you interviewed by police? A lot. Okay.
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More than three? I would say so, I guess, yes. Okay. As I understand it, you first met with Matt Simpson on the 19th, right? Yes. And when you talked to Matt Simpson, that was at your home at 622 West Des Moines Street, right? Yes. And that was just kind of generally to give him the background of what was going on, right? Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, you told Deputy Simpson that nothing really seemed to be out of place. Do you recall saying that? I don't recall saying that, but I could imagine that I did say that, yes. Have you reviewed any recordings or any reports relating to Deputy Simpson?
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I reviewed the report, yes. Okay.
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If Deputy Simpson's report says that's what you said, would you quibble with that?
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No.
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Okay. Now, do you recall having a conversation with Deputy Simpson saying that the bed was tousled and unmade, which was ironic? since Molly was the last one in it. Again, I don't recall that. But if Deputy Simpson says that, would you doubt that you made that statement? No. Okay. And then you talked with Detective Steve Kivy of the Poweshiek County Sheriff's Office, I believe the next day, right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But because of the resources and the investigation that the investigation had and the number of agents, one of the things they were able to do was collect the security camera footage and surveillance video from around the timeframe and date and area where Molly was last seen. And as the agents meticulously went over this video, on one of the from Dalton and Blake Jack on East Des Moines Street,
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. And that was just in his truck. He's trying to help find Molly as well, right? Yes. Do you recall that conversation? I don't recall every detail of that conversation, no. Okay. Do you recall telling him what you were doing in Dubuque the night before? No. But do you recall, because your recollection has been refreshed by Mr. Brown, that on the 23rd,
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
or strike that, on the 18th you got a Snapchat from Molly and you opened it around 10.30 PM, right? Yes. Okay. You also told someone that the last time someone saw Molly was around 10.30 PM that night as well, right? I don't recall that. You don't recall saying that to someone? No. Do you recall telling police officers that you also went to bed both nights while you were in Dubuque around 10.30?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't recall that either.
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Okay. Well, You were interviewed a final time by officers, and it was on July 27, 2018. Do you recall that interview?
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I don't recall every detail of that interview, but I remember the interview, yes.
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Okay. And that interview involved the agent Matt George. Do you recall that interview?
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Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You recall it involved an individual named Lara Ziesler?
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I don't recall who that is.
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Okay. You recall telling the agents that on the 18th of July, the night that you say Molly disappeared and that you were in Dubuque, that you finished work around 6.30 p.m., Do you recall telling them that on the 27th? No. Do you recall telling the agents that you showered and that night you watched Rush Hour 1 in your room? Is this the night of the 18th? Yes. Then yes. Okay.
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Now your testimony today is that you were out with the boys playing games and drinking beers, right? Yes. So you told the officers on the 27th of July a different story, right? I suppose so. And if I showed you the report, would it refresh your recollection? Yes. You also told officers on that same interview information that you withheld before, right? Correct.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that information that you withheld before was that you'd had a relationship with a woman other than Molly, right?
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Correct. Overruled.
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Who was that woman? Her name was Jordan Lamb. And what did you tell officers the reason you withheld that information? I didn't deem it necessary. You didn't deem it necessary? I didn't think that it was pertinent to the case. So you didn't think it was pertinent to tell law enforcement officers that you having an affair on your true love was not pertinent to the case, right? I was 19 years old.
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So what? Sustained.
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Explain to me what you mean by that. I was 19 years old. It was the beginning of the relationship, and I screwed up one time. Molly knew about it, and we got past it.
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So it was the beginning of the relationship that you had an affair on Molly? Yes. So give me a time frame as to when you had this affair on Molly. What date?
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I don't remember the exact dates, but it was about not even a year after we started dating. So give me a date. I don't remember the exact date. Give me an approximate date, please. August of 2017, I think it would be, or 2016.
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All right, because the officers talked to you about it, and... You gave them kind of the details into how Molly learned about this, right? Yes. Molly was upset that you cheated on her, right? Yes. And you gave them the date of the fall of 2017, didn't you? Yes, I think. Again, this... relationship that you had with Jordan Lamb. Tell us how it evolved. How'd it start? I don't remember.
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They saw a specter, a silhouette of what appeared to be a jogger, in the time and the area Molly was last seen. As they scoured that video for any other clue as to Molly's disappearance, they noticed a certain vehicle appearing again and again and again on that video. It was a black Chevy Malibu. That's a common make and model, but this one was unique.
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You started Snapchatting her, right? That sounds about right. Am I right or am I wrong? Yes, you're right. You started sending her Snapchats. Why'd you start sending her Snapchats? Why does anybody do anything that's wrong? I'm asking you that question. I don't know. You have no idea why you started sending a woman Snapchats? Correct. Well, you wanted to get with her, right?
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I imagine that would be yes. Okay. Well, I don't want you to imagine. I want you to tell me why you did. Yes. You wanted to strike up a relationship with Jordan Lamb, didn't you? Yes. And this was in February. Strike that. This was late 2017, early 2018, right? Yes. Okay, so it wasn't 2016 like you just told me. I told you that I don't remember the dates. Okay, but now you do, right? Correct.
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And you know that now because you've been confronted with these dates by officers, right? Yes. And you were confronted with these dates by Molly, right? Yes. So you do remember the dates right now, don't you? Yes. Two minutes ago you didn't remember the dates, right? I'm not exactly an argument. It's the state. So, these Snapchats,
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The reason you use Snapchat was that you send a message and then it disappears, right? The reason I use Snapchat is because that was my primary form of communication with a lot of people. Okay. But also you use it because you send a message and it disappears and can't be seen by people who get on your phone, right? That wasn't what I stated in my previous statement. Okay.
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So you're telling me that the reason you use Snapchat had nothing to do with the fact that Snapchat disappears after you send a message? Correct. Okay. Now... In these Snapchats, you're telling Jordan things like, she's the most attractive girl you ever met, right? I don't remember the content of the Snapchats.
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Object to hearsay and relevance.
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Sustained.
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As to what ground? Hearsay. In these Snapchats, this is around the time Molly was getting ready to go visit her dad in California in March of 2018, right? I do not recall. Okay. And were you not telling Jordan that you were going to break up with Molly? I also do not recall. And you were pressing Jordan pretty hard for her to be your girlfriend, right? I also do not recall.
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During this time, you had sexual relations with Jordan, right? Yes. You never told Molly that, did you? Molly knew. When did Molly know? Molly knew when she confronted me about it. And how did Molly find out that you were having sexual relations with Jordan Lamb? She went through my phone. Was asleep. She went through your phone? Correct. When? When I was asleep one night.
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Was this before or after Jordan Lamb busted you by telling Molly? That was during. That's the reason she went through my phone. Okay. Okay. So you'd agree with me that Jordan Lamb messaged Molly to share with her what you had been doing with Jordan, right? Yes. And Jordan told Molly that you were trying to get with her, right? I don't object.
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He's going to have no basis for that knowledge as to what Jordan told Molly. Sustained. Was there information on your phone about Jordan and Molly talking? I do not recall. Okay. But again, you didn't seem to think that this relationship with Jordan was relevant, right? Correct. Now, when you told Agent George about this, he told you he wanted to set the reset button with you, right?
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I don't understand the question. Agent George told you it was time to set the reset button with you, and he wanted you to be 100% truthful, right? I don't recall. Okay. You also then were asked by Agent George... If there's anything else that you remembered about that day or that time in your life, do you recall that question from Agent George? I don't recall.
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Do you recall from Agent George's conversation that you and he were talking about some mysterious man that you had just seen in Brooklyn? Yes. And describe that mysterious man that you told them about on July 27th. I believe that I was mowing the lawn and he just walked by.
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He was tall, wearing baggy pants with a chain. That's what I remember currently. Dressed all in black. If that's what the report says, then yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This vehicle had non-standard rims, it had chrome door handles, and it had chrome mirrors. But shortly after this vehicle was identified as a vehicle of interest in the case, Poweshiek County Deputy and Investigator Steve Kibbe was driving home on Interstate 80 when he saw a black Chevy Malibu with the chrome side mirrors. So he followed that vehicle, and he approached the driver when it stopped.
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And you had just recalled that that day as well? I don't know. Okay. You agree with me you've never given that report of a mysterious man wearing black walking around Brooklyn before July 27th?
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The report of the man walking around Brooklyn was after Molly had already disappeared.
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Okay. Would you agree with me that you probably knew Molly's running routes better than anyone?
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No.
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Who would know better?
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I don't know who would know better, but I barely knew Molly's running routes.
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Well, you testified on direct that you knew her running routes. I do know her running routes, yes. But now it's just you barely knew her running routes. I didn't know that she ran out to the blacktop. Okay. Now, I'm going to try to show you. What's been marked as defendant's exhibit Q for identification. Now, you turned over your phone for examination, right? Yes.
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And that phone was examined, right? Yes. Was it returned to you? Yes. Were you given a copy of the report? No. Have you seen the report? No. It's your testimony, Mr. Jack, that on July 18, the day Molly goes missing, I just want to be clear on timeline here, that you texted her that morning. Good morning, beautiful. Correct. And did you text throughout the day with her? No. Pardon me?
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One other time. On the 18th? Yes. And do you recall texting with her around dinner time? No. Didn't ask you if you had a better day today? I don't recall that, no. So this is the day your love of your life goes missing, and you don't recall that? No.
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Did you not go back and try to recreate the day that your love of your life goes missing in an attempt to maybe figure out how she was wound up missing?
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From the moment that it started, I knew that I was not an investigator of any sort.
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Okay, but even for your own peace of mind, you didn't go back and try to recreate this? My own peace of mind came by trying to get her back. Okay. Did you not go back and look at your phone and look at your text messages and your Snapchats to just kind of rehash the days leading up to this? No. Not once? No. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
She graduated from BGM High School in 2017 and was pursuing a degree in psychology at the University of Iowa, driven by her dream of becoming a child psychologist to help children struggling with mental health issues. Molly loved life and it showed in everything she did. She excelled in writing and speech, sharing her thoughts on complex topics like mental health and self-esteem.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, what is your understanding of the time that Molly would have been likely abducted? I don't understand the question. What is your understanding of the time of day on the 18th that Molly was likely abducted? Her normal running time is what I assumed. Okay, so no one's told you, you haven't done any investigation as to what time of day Molly was abducted.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Exactly. Every detail of the case I've wanted omitted from me because I don't want to know. You don't want to know? No. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, let's back up a little further then. July 16th is a Monday, right? Yes. We know that because the 18th was a Wednesday, right? Yes. Monday you didn't work in Dubuque? Monday I worked in Dubuque. Okay. So Monday night was a typical night. You were hanging out with the boys in the room, right? Yes. Who's your roommate? Brandon Gordy. And Brandon's a young man you grew up with?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I didn't grow up with Brandon Gordy. He's from Brooklyn though, right? Yes. But he was older than I was. Okay. Did you text and Snapchat Molly that night? Yes. What time did you go to bed? I don't go. Around 10.30? Sound about right? Sure. Is that your normal bedtime? Yes. Tuesday, you get up. What time did you go to work that day? Same time as always, 5.30, 6 o'clock, somewhere in there. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you worked all day until about 6 o'clock that night, right? Yes. Long day. Yes. Now, is that the day that someone sprayed your car with some sealant? It was either Tuesday or Monday, but yes. Made you pretty upset? Yes. Okay. So upset that you wanted to quit, right? Yes. You wanted to go home and see Molly, right? Yes. But you didn't. Why not?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because the pay benefits, what else was I going to do? Molly talked you out of it, right? Yes. And that night, did you hang out with the guys drinking beer? I don't recall. Okay. Well, if you told investigators you drank a bunch of beer that night and got drunk and was hungover Wednesday morning? Would that sound about right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The driver didn't speak much English, and so he had the help of a neighbor to speak to the driver. The driver identified himself with the birth certificate as Christian Bahena Rivera, the defendant. As Deputy Kivy continued to speak with the defendant, he learned that the defendant worked at Yarrabee Farms. which was a local dairy farm in Poweshiek County, Iowa.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that makes sense because you were angry and probably drank one or two too many beers, right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Who sprayed your truck?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't remember who sprayed my truck, but it was somebody on one of the other crews.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And you were upset with him? Yes. You told Molly you were upset with him? Yes. Okay. It was a Hispanic gentleman, wasn't it? Yes. Okay. And then on Wednesday, you went back to work and another normal day, right? Yes. And you don't recall Molly texting you at the end of the day and asking you if you had a better day? No, I don't. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you don't recall texting Molly at 8, 18 or 8, 19 that night? No, I don't. You don't recall sending her a text message saying, my phone data straight up won't work? No, I don't. Okay. And it's your testimony that you opened a Snapchat from Molly at 10.30 p.m., right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would you agree with me that the Snapchat records that were retrieved by investigators would more accurately show those times than your recollection? Absolutely. Can you think of any reason in your mind why those records would show that you opened that last Snapchat at 1.30 a.m. on the 19th? I was just awake. Woke up in the middle of the night.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, so if they show 1.30 a.m., that's accurate, right? If that's what the records show, yes. Okay, so your recollection of that could be faulty. Yes. You have no recollection of texting Molly at 8.18 p.m. on July 18th saying... My data straight up won't work. I don't. Last message you sent your girlfriend on the day she was abducted? Correct. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, on your phone, you have a number of apps, right? Yes. You have an Apple iPhone, right? Yes. On that Apple iPhone, you have things like Find My iPhone? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Tell me what Find My iPhone is. Find My iPhone, if you have paired the iPhones, allows you to find the other iPhone.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. So, like, I have kids, and I can do Find My iPhone to find my kids and where they are at any given time. Did you have the same thing with Molly? No. So... You had Find My iPhone. Do you have anybody else on Find My iPhone that you could locate? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The way Find My iPhone works is if you're on the same phone bill, then you can do it, or if you pair them, you can do it. Me and Molly never paired, and we weren't on the same phone bill.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Would there be any reason why you were on Find My iPhone on July 18, 2018? I don't know. You don't know? I don't know. Who is on your Find My iPhone that you can locate at that time? Nobody. Okay. You also have Progressive for an insurance company, right? Not anymore, but at the time I did, yes. Okay. And that application was on your phone as well, right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that app would keep track of how you drove? Yes. Yes. And if you drove well, like you didn't speed or stop short or get in an accident, you would get rewarded for good driving behavior, right? Correct. Do you check that app often? No. But it would automatically kick in if your vehicle was on the move. Is that your understanding? Correct, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you recall checking your progressive app that night? No, but I rarely swept up and closed my apps on my phone. Okay. But... Your understanding is of the progressive app, they call it Snapshot, right? Yes. Snapshot kicks in when your vehicle is on the move, right? Yes. And it's your vehicle, no one else's, right? No. And you're telling me that your vehicle on July 18th, 2018 was not on the move?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because of the language barrier, Deputy Kivy wasn't able to gain much other information from the defendant. He took pictures of the defendant, he took pictures of the vehicle, and he ended that encounter. Not long after that, law enforcement decided they wanted to speak with the defendant further. And on August 20th, 2018, they went to Yarrabee Farms.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No. Nine o'clock that night, you were drinking beer with buddies and playing bags, right? Correct. You also have an app on your phone called Maps, right? Yes. Now, Maps, you can get directions or drop a pin and drive to someone's location, right? Yes. You've done that before, right? I've used Maps to get directions, yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Would there be any reason why you're using Apple Maps on your phone in the evening of July 18, 2018, after, let's say, 10 p.m.? Not that I can think of. If your phone activity shows that you were using Apple Maps that night, can you think of any reason why? That I would have not closed it. Okay. When was the last time you would have used Apple Maps, to your knowledge? To get up to Dubuque. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, who is Ulysses Felix?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ulysses Felix was the, he's a kid that worked with Scott. Not worked with Scott, went to school with Scott.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You ever met Ulysses Felix? Yes. Did you know Ulysses Felix prior to Molly's death? I knew of him, yes. Pardon me? I knew of him, yes. Okay. Did you know where he lived? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Coach, I'm going to object again to this particular line of questioning outside the scope of the direct.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled. Go ahead. Did you know where he worked? No. He's also a friend of Jake Tibbetts too, right? Yes. And this is the same Ulysses Felix that after Molly's death wound up living with Laura, right? Correct. Let's talk about you, young man. You consider yourself to have a temper? Not anymore. You did though at one time?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Pretty angry young man? When I was about 17, 16, yes. Okay, so how old were you when Molly died? 20. When you were 17, 16, tell us about the temper that Dalton Jack had.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Jack Torellas. Go ahead.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry, can you repeat the question? Tell me about the temper of the 16, 17-year-old Dalton Jack. It was not good. Short-fused. Like to fight? Yes. In fact, one time you choked a man out, right? I'm kind of jacked as...
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is improper character evidence, specific instance of conduct. This is not relevant.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained on that ground. But you've been known to fight, right? Yes. And when you fought, your friends were right there with you, weren't they?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They all had each other's backs, right? Yes. Those friends included Dylan Eichhorn?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Dylan Eichhorn was older than me, so no. How much older was Dylan? Dylan graduated with my older brother who was just in here.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. You know Jackson Eichhorn?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is he a friend? No. He graduated with my younger brother. Okay. But you all know each other, right? Yes. You work with Dylan, right? Yes. Around the time that Molly was abducted or died, you told her a number of times that you thought you were depressed, right? Correct. And that manifested itself with anger, you said, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Three days, three days before Molly ends up missing, she told you that she was upset and sad because of your relationship with Jordan, right? Yes. The day before she ends up missing... You learned that she and Hope Beck had talked about your relationship with yet another woman named Tara, right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't recall that at all. You don't know that? No. Either you don't know it or you don't recall it? Don't recall it. Okay. You told police that they asked you if Molly was jealous. You told them that there was a woman named Tara as well, right? If that's what the report says, then yes. I'm not asking what the report says. I'm asking what you said. I don't recall.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
to find the defendant, speak with him, and canvass the area. They did find the defendant that day, in the afternoon, spoke with the defendant, asked if he'd do an interview, to which he agreed. That interview took place at the Poweshiek County Sheriff's Office. Now, the defendant's a native Spanish speaker.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You don't recall telling the police about Tara? No. Was there a Tara? Yes. Okay, so there's another woman that you had at least some conversations with, right? Yes. That was during your relationship with Molly?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That was simultaneous to starting the relationship with Molly.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And...
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Who told you or got ahold of you first as Molly's friend about whether or not Molly was missing? Emily Finn. Also an old relationship of yours? Yes. Also a woman who made Molly jealous, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection calls for speculation.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained. You and Molly had conversations in the weeks and month leading up to her abduction. about Emily asking about you, right? I don't recall that at all. There wasn't a time where Emily would be at parties and stuff and ask about you?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't know. Jack calls for speculation, calls for hearsay.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained. Okay. Emily Fenner, when she texted you, because that's what she did, she texted you, right? She called me. She texted me and called me, yes. When she texted you, she asked you a very specific question, didn't she? I don't recall. She asked you, Dalt, because she calls you Dalt, right? Yes. And she said, Dalt, is Molly alive? Didn't she? I don't know. You don't know?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't recall the text messages. Okay. You'd agree with me that's an odd question to ask someone? Sustained. How long was it before Molly was abducted that she started wearing her promise ring again?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't recall.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was it a week? I don't recall. Okay. What have you done to prepare yourself for testimony today, sir? I got off a flight yesterday, so very little. Okay. You know we're here on a charge of murder for the love of your life, right? Yes. And I'm getting a lot of, I don't recall a lot of you, right? Yes. And you want the man who did this brought to justice, right? Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you haven't thought about this and poured it over in your mind to have every detail remembered?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When I was asked if I wanted to be here voluntarily, I said absolutely not. So no. So you did not want to be here voluntarily? No, I didn't want to be in the same room as your defendant there.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Oh. So you didn't want to come give testimony to get justice for the love of your life? No. You wouldn't be here to fight for her? No. Okay. That's all I have, Your Honor.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Redirect? Yeah.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Don, let's be clear. You cooperated with me prior to trial to prepare you here today. Is that correct? Absolutely, yes. All right. We talked on the phone a number of times. Isn't that right? Yes. The reason why we wouldn't have met in person is because you're in the Army stationed in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you remember a time when this case was pending when you had been deployed overseas? Yes. Where did you go? Can you tell us? Iraq. All right. And whenever you were in Iraq, you communicated with me, correct? Yes. And it was mainly about the case, about when it was going to be scheduled, and that type of thing. Isn't that right? Yes. So you've always wanted to assist and do what you can.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And so Pamela Romero, an Iowa City police officer, also a native Spanish speaker, was enlisted to conduct that interview. The interview went on for several hours. They talked about where the defendant was from, who his family was, who his friends and associates were, where he worked. And the defendant admitted at that time that he drove a black Chevy Malibu.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that right? Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
sustained rephrase the question I can do that describe your level of describe you cooperated with us is that right yes all right and we sent you some reports correct to review I'll rephrase it. What did we... Sorry.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained. Rephrase.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Tell us the reason, again, why you don't want to be sitting in this room right now. Because of the defendant being here. Okay. And why?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm obviously not his biggest fan.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
you were in a relationship with molly tibbets correct yes is that why you don't want to be sitting with this man right here correct because you think he's responsible for her death isn't that right speculation invades the profits of the jury well i'll sustain that but i'm going to allow mr brown to rephrase the question if he so chooses why do you not want to be sitting in this room with that guy with this man i wholeheartedly believe he's guilty
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Whenever you went to Dubuque with Jasper Construction on the week that included July 18th, tell us how many people would you have been around that week that would have known you?
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That would have known me? Yes. The entirety of my crew, which was seven people, and then there was a few on the other crew that I had worked with before, so I'd say probably 10 to 12 that knew me. Okay.
Crimeatorium
Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And in order to get from your home to Dubuque or to the job location, did you have to use any apps or applications on your phone? Absolutely. What was that? Maps, for sure. Okay. And on your phone, can you describe for the jury whether or not your phone keeps your trips in its memory? Yes, it does.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So if you would have entered the address that you were going to, the bridge or wherever it was you were working on the week that included July 18th, would that have been in your phone? Yes. And would you have utilized that to get to your job site? Yes. Bottom line, Mr. Jack, did you ever come home
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
between the time you left for your job on the week that included July 18th and when you got back on July 19th, did you ever come back to Brooklyn, Iowa? I did not. The relationship with Jordan, Mr. Freeze asked you about that. Do you recall that? Yes. How long did that last? About a day. Okay. Now, did Molly Tibbetts find out about that relationship? Yes. And had you two worked through that? Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ever break up over it? No. To your knowledge, did any of Molly's family members know about your relationship with Jordan? They do now. Okay. Did they know it back then? Not at the time, no. Well, let me be clear. Not at the time that it was happening, right? No, not at the time that it was happening. Did they find out about it later? Yes. All right.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Have you maintained a good relationship with Molly's parents, Laura and Rob? Yes. Despite the fact that you had had this brief relationship with Jordan?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Relevance.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Let him finish the question. I'm sorry. Overruled. Go ahead. The witness may answer if he knows.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm sorry. Can you say the question again? Yeah. Did you maintain a good relationship with Rob Tibbetts and Laura Calderwood, Molly's parents, after this knowledge about Jordan came out? Yes. All right. It was in the past?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you know the defendant, Christian Bahena-Rivera? No. Have you ever met him at all prior to July 18th of 2018? No. Did you know he drove a black Chevy Malibu? No. Have you ever had access to the black Chevy Malibu driven by Christian Bahena Rivera? No. To your knowledge, did Molly Tibbetts have any type of relationship with Christian Bahena-Rivera? No.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He was the only person that drove that black Chevy Malibu. And then they started talking about Molly Tibbins and what he knew about her disappearance. And at first, defendant denied knowing anything about Molly's disappearance except what he'd seen around town with the flyers and news reports. And then he was showed a still photograph from that surveillance video. It was then that defendant
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
To your knowledge, did Molly Tibbetts have access to the black Chevy Malibu driven by the defendant Christian Bahena-Rivera?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No connection between either you or Molly and the defendant. Is that correct? Correct. That's all I have. Thank you.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Fries, any recross? Mr. Jack, despite communicating with Mr. Brown from Iraq, Despite preparing with Mr. Brown while you're here, you still don't recall a lot of the pertinent facts, right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that's because you're choosing to?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, it's because it wasn't in the two reports that I received.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Oh, okay. You agree the facts you don't recall are ones that are not advantageous to you, right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The job on object is argumentative.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's sustained. As early as a month before Molly was abducted, you two were talking about breaking up, right? Yes. I do recall that, and yes. Okay. So things weren't all rosy between you and Molly in the last 30 days before her abduction, were they? No. And you didn't like the fact that if Molly was going to be leaving you and maybe going with someone else, that bothered you?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That would bother anybody, but yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah. And it wasn't the first time that bothered you because you two were supposed to move in together in October 2017. Correct. And when she told you she was going to move in with friends, that got you angry as well?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You didn't want her moving in with friends.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You wanted her moving in with you. I was upset that she went back on the plan that I had been going with for the last year and a half after that.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It made you very angry.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right? Yes. Did you ever tell Molly that you didn't like other men looking at her? Not that I recall, no. Okay. Okay. Sure about that?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Objection, Judge. Again, he's answered the question.
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It's overruled. He can clarify if he needs to. Go ahead.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sure about that?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. Okay. That's all I have.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Brown, are we done with this witness? Yes, we are. Okay. Mr. Jack, thank you for being here. You're excused. All right. The state may call its next witness.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Could you state your name, please? Matthew William Simpson. And who is your employer? Palaszczuk County Sheriff's Office.
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What do you do for the Sheriff's Office?
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I'm a patrol deputy.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And were you on duty on July 19th, 2018?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what shift were you working that day?
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It'd be the night shift. It's 4 p.m. to 4 a.m.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you receive a missing person call when you were working that shift? I did. And can you describe that call for me?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was called to the house of Blake Jack, I believe it was 622 West Des Moines Street in Brooklyn, Iowa, for a missing person.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And do you recall the approximate time that that report came in?
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I believe it was 5.56 p.m.
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Is Brooklyn in Poweshiek County? It is. And did you respond to that call? I did.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And who was on the scene when you first arrived? Blake Jack and I believe his girlfriend Allie, along with a couple other people that weren't identified.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you recall the approximate time that you arrived at the residence?
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I don't recall approximate time.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And do you know who was living at 622 West Des Moines Street at that time?
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Blake Jack, his girlfriend Allie, and Blake's brother Dalton. And I believe Molly Tibbetts had been staying there as well.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And who was identified as missing?
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Molly Tibbetts.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When was the last reported communication that anybody had with Molly?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I believe I talked to her mom, Laura Calderwood, and she had conversation with her the previous night at 5.30 for a conversation about having supper. I believe that was the 18th.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you go inside the residence? I did. What did you observe in the residence?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
A normal farmhouse where four 20-something, two couples were living. It wasn't unkept, but it was, you know, dishes in the sink, just a typical teenager house.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you find Molly Tibbetts at the residence? I did not. Did you see any sign of a struggle? I did not. Were there dogs at the house?
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They had dogs that were pinned up in the basement.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did you go to the basement to investigate? I did. What did you see when you were there?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I found the dogs pinned into a room. There was some dog poop on the floor. Blake had told me that was common, that the dogs were pinned up if anybody was out of the home. If somebody was in the home, they'd be let free.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Anything else of note that you discovered in the house?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't believe so. I looked in her room where she stayed with Dalton when they were home. There was nothing of consequences in the house. They advised me the doors were usually left unlocked. We did find a freshly delivered package at the front door. I believe it was FedEx that had dropped that off, and there was one by the side door by the garage that was delivered by the post office.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
relented on his story, and he admitted that he had seen Molly the night she disappeared. He admitted that he found her attractive, that she was hot in his words. And he admitted after he saw her the first time, he circled back to take a second look. Early in the morning on August 21st, 2018, Deputy Kivy,
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you seize any evidence?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't believe so at that time. Was anything noted as missing from 622 West Des Moines Street? I don't believe so. And did you go anywhere else to further your investigation aside from 622 West Des Moines Street?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I went to the home of Laura Calderwood, where Molly had also stayed. What's the address there? I believe it's 114 Bear Creek Drive. In Brooklyn? It is in Brooklyn.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And was anything noted as missing from that residence?
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Laura recalled that her running shoes and earbuds were missing.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you do anything else to attempt to locate Molly on July 19th?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I had dispatch ping her cell phone number. I was advised later that it was either off or in a Rome state. I'd contacted my sheriff and also later contacted our investigator, Steve Kivy.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did anyone report having seen Molly on July 18th, 2018?
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I was advised, I believe it was Blake that stated one of the neighbors had seen him, seen her on the 18th. And I later spoke with that neighbor, Nate Hopwood, about seeing her the day prior. What was Molly reported to have been doing? Running past the residential area. And that was on July 18th? Yes.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How long were you in Brooklyn during your investigation?
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I believe probably a couple hours. I'm not sure on specific time.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ever contact Deputy Steve Kivy?
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I did.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And who is he?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He's the investigator for the Pasadena County Sheriff's Office.
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Did you have any other involvement in this case after you conducted the initial investigation?
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I did not. And why is that? The following day, I was leaving on vacation, so I was out of the area for an extended period of time, and then my duties didn't bring me back into the case. Thank you, Deputy. I have no further questions for you.
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Thank you, Mr. Claver. Defense may cross-examine.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So, sir, you received this call, and it's probably not unusual to receive a call that someone can't be located, is that right? Correct. Typically it doesn't end up like this and it ends up that it's closed fairly quickly, is that right? Correct. Here, you respond and you go directly to the 622 Des Moines Street house, is that right?
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That's right.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When you get there, describe what you see.
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A house sitting back from the roadway. There was, I would guess, six people there other than Blake Jack and his girlfriend at the time, Allie. There was starting to be a little bit of a commotion because they were worried about their friend.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So these people, and they're not disorderly, but they're worried and frantic. Is that right? Correct. So your job, first of all, is to kind of make everybody calm and to deal with what is a high conflict and emotional situation. Is that right? Correct. Was there anybody that was sort of a lead person that you talked with? At that point, it was Blake. He was home at the time. All right.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And Blake conveyed the information of what was going on. Is that right? Correct. When's the first time that you spoke with Dalton Jack? It had been later that evening. So he was not home yet, is that right?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct, I was advised he was in Dubuque driving home.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Describe your first contact with Dalton Jack.
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Normal for somebody that, you know, boyfriend finds out his girlfriend's missing, he's concerned.
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Was he crying?
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I don't recall.
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Was he talkative?
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I don't recall.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he tell you when he last spoke with Molly?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I believe he said he'd gotten a Snapchat.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What time was that Snapchat at?
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He'd opened it at 10.30 the night before.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did he tell you when the last time that he spoke with her via text message?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't recall text message.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No further questions. Thank you.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Mr. Claver, anything of this witness?
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No questions, Your Honor.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Officer Romero and the defendant went to a cornfield off of 460th Avenue 2478 in rural Poweshiek County near the Poweshiek County and Iowa County line. This particular field had a gate and a long grassy ingress or drive that stretched more than 50 yards into the corn. Defendant was interviewed again at that location. And it was there that he made further admissions.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He admitted that he'd seen Molly the night she disappeared, July 18, 2018. He admitted that he followed her, that he got out of his car. He admitted to jogging to catch up with her, that he wanted to get close to her. He admitted that Molly didn't want to have anything to do with him, that she threatened to call the police. And he admitted he became angry at that time.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He admitted to fighting with her. And then he says the next thing that he remembers, he's driving in his car to Malibu, and he notices Molly's earbuds. And he remembers that Molly is in his trunk. He admits taking Molly's body out of the trunk. He admits seeing blood on Molly's body and neck. He admits putting Molly over his shoulder. He described the body as someone who had fainted.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
He admitted taking Molly into the field, placing her face up, and putting corn stalks on her body, and then leaving. Law enforcement searched the field off of 460th Avenue, and they found a body decomposed beyond all recognition, wearing multicolored neon running shoes. An autopsy was done of the body. Identity was confirmed as Molly Tibbetts.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Molly made friends everywhere she went and children adored her. She worked at a summer camp where her laughter and warmth left a lasting impression. She was a runner, a dancer, an actor, and a singer. But above all, Molly was a young woman filled with kindness, ambition, and an undeniable joy for life.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Body was examined and determined that Molly had been stabbed anywhere from 7 to 12 times. In the chest, near the ribs, in the neck, and in the skull. The medical examiner determined that the cause and manner of death was homicide by sharp force injury. The defendant's vehicle was searched, the Chevy Malibu, and blood was found on the trunk liner and in the trunk.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Analysis was done of that blood, DNA analysis, and it was matched to the DNA taken from the body. It was Molly's blood. in the defendant's Chevy Malibu. Ladies and gentlemen, this is what I expect the evidence in this case to show.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And when you go back in your deliberations, I'd like you to focus on the three primary aspects of the state's evidence that point to the defendant as Molly Tibbetts' killer. The first is a video, the video that shows the defendant's black Chevy Malibu in the time and the area where Molly was last seen.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Combine that with the defendant's admissions that he was the only one that drove that vehicle and that he was alone that night. Second aspect of the state's evidence for you to focus on is Molly's blood in the defendant's Malibu. And the third of the defendant's admissions
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
His admissions, that he saw Molly, that he found her attractive, that he ran alongside her, that Molly threatened to call the police, that he became angry, that he fought with Molly, that he drove to the field at 2478 460th Avenue, the field with the gate and the long ingress into the corn, close to the county line, that he remembered Molly being in the trunk,
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
that his admissions of taking Molly's bloody body out of the trunk, putting her on his shoulder, taking her into the field, leaving her there, covering her with corn stalks. Ladies and gentlemen, when you examine this evidence together, there can be no other conclusion than that the defendant killed Molly Tibbetts.
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And I'll ask you to return a verdict, the only verdict that the evidence demands, that you find the defendant guilty of murder in the first degree.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Claver. Does the defense elect to give their opening at this time?
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Your Honor, we will defer our opening to the conclusion of the state's case. Thank you.
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Record will so reflect.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Please state your name for the record. Blake Jack. And where do you live? 622 West Des Moines Street in Brooklyn. How long have you lived at 622 West Des Moines Street in Brooklyn? Three and a half years. Do you live there currently with anyone else? Yep, my wife. What's your wife's first name? Allie. How long have you been married? Since 2019 of August.
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I probably wasn't going to ask your anniversary date. That's okay. But do you also have children?
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Yes, we do.
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And how many kids do you guys have?
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We've got one son, Brayson, and we have another one on the way. All right.
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back in july of 2018 were you also residing at 622 west des moines in brooklyn yes and who was living with you at that point in time well at that time was my fiance but still ally my brother dalton and his girlfriend molly and let's take a look at some exhibits here i'm going to put exhibit 4 on the uh screen can you see that yep kate
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Part 1: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In July 2018, Molly disappeared while on an evening jog near her hometown of Brooklyn, Iowa, sparking a massive search effort that united the community and drew nationwide attention. Sadly, her body was discovered weeks later. This episode covers the court trial in full, edited for length and clarity.
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On the left side of this exhibit 4, which has been admitted into evidence, it says 622 West Des Moines Street. Do you see that? Yep. Is that where you reside? Yes. All right. And is this generally what town are we here? Is on the map? Brooklyn. All right. Mr. Jack, where is it that you are employed? I'm self-employed. I own my own construction company.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And about when did you first meet her?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
September 2015. I had my son there.
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My question again, did you ever make a representation to anybody that you were in special ops? I'm reading your deposition. Does that refresh you?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It states that I didn't.
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Sir, I asked you that question. Does that refresh your recollection?
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No, I asked if that refreshed his recollection. Please re-ask the question and please answer directly. Okay.
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You read your answer, correct? Correct. My question to you is just this. Did that refresh your recollection whether or not you ever made that representation?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And I stated it says I didn't.
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You represented... No, I said... No, question. No, I said to anybody, that I don't know. That I don't know. Correct? Were you going around telling people... Uh, Mr. Townsend, you've been special ops.
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I was not saying I was special ops.
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Did you ever tell Lori again that you'd protect her from Michael?
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You had discussed with Lori about getting a divorce, correct?
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Are you married?
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I said me and my wife were in a bad spot and we had talked about a divorce.
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Now, Lori wouldn't be satisfied with that explanation, would she? She'd want a little more from you than that, correct? Correct. They had to broach this topic, make some representation that you guys were going to be an item in some fashion, correct? No. Okay. Did Lori was content with you saying, well, I'm going to stay with the wife. I'm just over here having some fun.
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How long have you been married?
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The agreement in the beginning was. Sir, is that what the relationship was? Not the question. When I'm asking.
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How old was your child?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Let me approach. Come on up for a sidebar, please. Thank you.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Mr. Townsend, you were describing the relationship you had with Lori. You're having this affair with her, correct? Correct. Okay. Tell us about this relationship. What your understanding was with Lori Shaver?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
They were supposed to be friends with benefits, no strings attached.
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Friends with benefits. Okay. And yet you're still contemplating a divorce at that time, correct? Correct. Okay, so there was a discussion.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
A discussion about what?
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About five.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, your position is you had no knowledge of Michael Shaver being shot, correct? Correct. Okay, you weren't in the house, correct? Correct. Now, you knew the Shaver children, correct?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was the kind of homework relationship?
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I didn't know them. Like, on a personal basis, I knew she had children. I only seen them a handful of times.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay, a handful of times. You're there two, three times a week, okay? The kids were in school. Now, you're there at their Christmas break, correct?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The kids were not there during school. Okay, during their Christmas break. I wasn't there during Christmas break.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When was Michael shot? I don't know that. Okay. Did you ever make a statement indicating to the contrary? I'm going to show you your deposition again, sir. I know what I told you.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Second question. Yes, sir. Page 16. I want you to read lines 3 through 7 to yourself. Yeah.
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Your position was, I have no evidence that I was nowhere near during the time frame or whatever happened to Michael. So now you're saying, I don't know when he was shot, but I know I wasn't around there during that time frame. Correct? So you're saying, I don't know when this man shot. But you can't pin it on me.
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My wife works. I'm retired out of the military.
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But if you read farther, I said that.
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Is that what you just said?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when you met this shaver, At the park, did she have any of her children there?
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Your Honor, I'm trying to answer the question.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, you can rehabilitate your own witness. All right, and Mr. Wiggs is correct. So please answer the question directly. Once the question is asked, answer it directly and then move on. Thank you.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Right? So you don't know when he was killed, but you're saying you can't pin it on me. I was nowhere around without knowledge when he was killed. Correct, sir? That's what you stated in your deposition.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, it's not.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I just read it to you. You just read it yourself.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
But like I said, if you read farther... Sir, that's what you said, right?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can we approach with the transfer?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sidebar, please.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did the state advise you of a date that Michael Shaver was shot? No. Mr. Townsend, did you get a tattoo in 2016?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, I did not.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you have any tattoos at all?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What would you describe them?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It's an Indian dress chief with a compass and a map, roses.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you have her roses? Tell me about that one.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The roses are in the tattoo.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. What's the full tattoo?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I just described it.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Or may speak up.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I just described it.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
He said it's roses in a tattoo. What's the full tattoo?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It's an Indian chief with a map and a compass.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Did you see Miss Shaver at the store in 2016 approach her to show her your new tattoo?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She had her son.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. You never did that? No. Mr. Townsend, your family own any property in Silver Springs area? No. Okay. Do you have parents in Ocala? No. Okay. Do you have any parents in the state of Florida? Yes, I do. Where do they reside?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did you chat with her? Did you start some sort of relationship? What kind of developed from there?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Crystal River.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Crystal River. Okay. They own any land? That their house is on? Yeah. How much land? Five acres. Okay. All right. That's all I have. Thank you, Chad.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. Thank you. State?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Getting back to the whether or not you made a prior insistent statement about knowing when Michael Schaefer was killed, let me show you your deposition transcript, and can you just go ahead and... Sustained.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Please ask the question. If the question isn't asked properly, then you can approach the witness with the deposition. Please inquire.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
In that deposition, tell Mr. Wiggs repeatedly that you do not know when Michael Shaver was killed. Correct. In that statement that Mr. Wiggs was reading about I have evidence that I was nowhere near during the time frame or whatever happened to Michael Shaver, did you say at least four times after that that you did not know when he was shot? Correct.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She approached me and asked if it was okay if her son played with my son.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
As far as September, your memory about the Wayne Torsmith, Ms. Shaver... At deposition, you said you didn't remember, and today you said that you first met her in the park in September of 2015. So what happened in between the deposition and today that helped with your memory?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Went back through all the old text messages to refresh my memory because this is going on almost 10 years ago. I don't remember everything I did during that period of time. So to refresh myself, if I was asked that question, I would know how to answer it. So I went back through all the old text messages and figured out when I seen Ms. Shaver.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you see her in the courtroom here today?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. Thank you, Mr. Wiggs. Thank you. Please call your next witness.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
State recalls Detective Jared Strickland. All right, Detective, can you just reintroduce yourself to the jury?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sure. Good morning. Corporal Jared Strickland with the Lake County Sheriff's Office.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, going back... talking more about the Facebook records that you analyzed.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can you point her out and identify her by something that she's wearing?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
As a quick reminder, how many different IP addresses were shared with the Michael Shaver account and the Lori Shaver account over that two-year period that you analyzed?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There were 13 IP addresses between the two.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Looking at Lori Shaver's Facebook records first, Shortly after Mike Shaver's disappearance in November of 2015, was there record activity showing Lori Shaver basically returning on to Facebook or becoming active on Facebook again?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, there was.
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And specifically, what indicated that?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
She's wearing a black shirt with white.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
There was a photo of her that was posted, a selfie that she took of herself, and the comments that were on that photo were essentially saying things like, Welcome back. It's been a while. Happy to see you back.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The state is showing defense what has been previously embarked by Lieutenant Patience States RR. Witness States RR, do you recognize that exhibit?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I do.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what is that exhibit?
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This is a selfie photo of Gloria Shaver.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is that the one that we just discussed?
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Yes, it is.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was that taken from the actual Lori Shaver Facebook records that are already in evidence?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it was.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. This time the state move states are in evidence. It states 46.
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Jeremy Townsend.
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Which seat is she sitting?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And the objections that are raised are motion to exclude digital data. All right.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Next to Mr. Wiggs.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Objections ever ruled.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was the date of this selfie post and the comments about the... November 11th, 2015. Now, on November 11th, 2015, did she make another post?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, she did.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Witness states SS. Is this the status that you referred to?
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Yes, it is.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And is that taken from the Lori Shamer Facebook records that are already in evidence?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When you would communicate with her, would she call you Jeremy or would she call you something else?
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Yes, it was.
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The state would move state's 45th SS in evidence to state's 47th.
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Any objection?
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I have no objection. All right.
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Objection is overruled.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Go ahead. And can you go ahead and read that status?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Of course. Sending a huge thank you for those who've served our country. My dad, grandfathers, and to my brave, loving man. Can't get any braver than those men and women. So much respect.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Of course, in the investigation, was there ever any indication that her husband, Michael Schaefer, was in the military? No. Was there ever any indication that her boyfriend at this time, Jeremy Townsend, was in the military?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What is the significance of November 11, 2015?
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Veterans Day.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Over the next couple of months, did she post anything on Facebook regarding her workouts or physical activity?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, she did.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you currently have an attorney?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After that first time you met her at the park, did you see her again?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing defense what has been previously remarked for identification as states TTUU and BB. Showing witness states TTU.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
identification you recognize that post tp specifically what is that post the photo of lori shaver on a looks like a weight bench and it was that from her facebook records that were previously entered into fs yes it was and states you you what is that also a selfie photo of lori shaver in a vehicle wearing workout clothes
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And does it reference in the content of that going, having something to do with Wartell without reading what it is?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it does.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what about states VV?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It's a photo of a workout machine in a barn or a shed.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, are all three of those from the Lori Shaver Facebook records that we've been talking about previously?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it was.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This time, Your Honor, the statement moves states TT... 48, UU, into evidence as 49, and VV into evidence as states 50.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was that also at the park or was that at another location?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Any objection? Objections are overruled as to the three exhibits.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Very quickly, before we move on to publishing those photos, I do want to go back to the activity from November 11, 2015. Based on review of the IP logs, was there any other activity other than posting photos or status updates associated with that date?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was at the park.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what was that?
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Michael Shaver's activity also, I believe.
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Was there anything on... Lori Shaver's IP logs that is already in evidence that refer to her changing her Facebook profile name.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, her name was changed.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I'm going ahead and publishing States 47, previously marked as DT. Is this the workout picture that you referenced?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At some point, did you all exchange phone numbers?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Can you go ahead and read the post associated with that?
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Slowly getting back into the weights and was happy to see these muscles come back alive today. Smile through the pain.
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What was the status posted there?
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Mentally preparing myself for leg day with the most awesome personal trainer. Not going to lie, I'm a bit scared. It's a love-hate relationship. She makes me swear, LOL, and I don't do that often. What date was that posted? January 2, 2016.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When approximately was that?
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And finally, that table machine, when was that posted?
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May 14, 2016. Also...
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contained in the Lori Schaefer Facebook records, was there photographs and other posts associated with her engagement to Travis Filmer? Yes. Was there also photographs associated with the ceremony that occurred on December 31, 2016, between herself and Mr. Filmer?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
About the third time I met her. Text messages.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing the fence would have previously been marked as States S.S. recognize that post? Yes, I do. And is that post from the Lori Shaver Facebook records that is already in evidence?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. When did you retain him? January 2022.
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Yes, it is.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And first of all, can you read the date that this was posted?
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August 12th, 2016.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there any sort of message that was associated with these photographs that were posted?
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Yes, there was.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What was that?
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God has gifted us with a great blessing, that of bringing us together. We are excited to now publicly announce we are engaged. We have appreciated all the love and excitement from our close friends and family. We are so blessed. I'm going to be a filmer. And what date was that? That was August 12, 2016.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Were there also posts associated... installation of the fire pit and ultimate cement slab. Yes. I'm showing you what has been previously been marked as seats. W-W, show them to the fence. You're right, that is that post and series of photographs.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I do.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And were those taken from the Lori Shaver Facebook records that are already in evidence?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, it was.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
This time the states moved states WW into evidence, states 52.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After starting to text back and forth, at some point did a physical relationship begin?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Any objection? No objections, yeah. Objections overruled.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
First of all, can you say the date that this was posted?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
March 24, 2016.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And what is the content of the post?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Newest project, built this fire pit today, cut a portion of the fence for straight access from back porch, and now just need to pour in concrete, put in a new gate, and figure out seating. Going to be a great summer.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Go ahead and look at the final photo. And there, do you recognize the children in that?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I do. And who are they? Those are Mike and Lori Shaver's children.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you very much. She referenced pouring a concrete slab Were there later posts on her Facebook profile about purchasing some concrete?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, there was.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
We're going to go ahead and show new statements. X, X. Show defense. Recognize this. Oppose.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, I do.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Is that related to the person to congregate from Lori Shaver's Facebook profile already in evidence?
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Yes, it is.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You're on this kind of state. Who states XX in the evidence that states 53?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Any objection?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Same objection.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right, sir. Objection is overruled.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What date is this posted?
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April 28, 2016.
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And what is the content of the post?
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About when did that?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
It was originally a photo of bags of cement in the back of a truck. There are comments, yes. Yes. Somebody asked what it was. She said cement. It's going in the area around the fire pit I built, going to make a seating area. Somebody else asked how on earth would you mix and pour that? Don't you need a huge machine? Good luck. Can't wait to see.
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First week of December 2015.
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Lori Lee Shaver, filmer, posted, nope, a wheelbarrow will do, and you mix with muscles, LMAO.
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How often would you see her?
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In the course of your investigation, did you also find evidence of a subsequent purchase of more concrete?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing the defense one has been previously marked as States YY. Direct your attention to States 54.
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These are records that we obtained from Lowe's.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And is there a receipt showing purchase of concrete by Maury Shaver? within those records? Yes, there is. Associated with your search for records about purchase of concrete, did you also look into whether or not any cement-related equipment had been rented by either Lori Shaver or Travis Filmer from any of the other home improvement stores?
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One, two, three times a week.
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Yes, I did.
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And did you find any evidence?
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I did. What was that? It was a concrete mixer that was rented from Home Depot by Travis Filmer.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
After that cement mixer rental and this cement purchase, was there photos on Facebook correlating with the cement slab around this time?
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I'm going to go ahead and show you what has been previously marked for identification. It states ZZ. Do you recognize this exhibit?
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And when of would these happen?
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Yes, I do.
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And is that a post from Corey Shaver's Facebook that we've been talking about already in evidence?
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Yes, it is.
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All right. This time the statement states ZZ in the evidence and states 55. Any objection? Same objection, John.
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Objection is overruled.
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What is the date of the series of photographs for this post?
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September 19, 2016. And the second photograph here... The fire pit is visible behind the young girl.
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And that ultimately is the cement slab that was covering Michael Shaffer's body?
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That's correct.
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All right, I want to move on to some discussion of the records from Michael Shaffer's Facebook account. Now this photo showing the installation of the cement slab, what date was that?
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It would occur during her lunch break. Did you work at home? Yes.
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September 19th, 2016.
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Did you find activity on Michael Shaver's Facebook after September 19th, 2016?
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Yes, I did.
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Showing the witness was already in evidence. State's Exhibit 11. What is State's Exhibit 11?
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It's a photo of Mike Shaver.
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And specifically, this, a photo from Michael Shaver's Facebook records?
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Yes, it is.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What would Facebook categorize this photo as?
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This was a profile picture.
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And when was this particular photo posted onto the Mike Shaver Facebook account?
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March 8, 2017.
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So about six months after that post about the Smith's lab?
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Were there other profile pictures posted? No. on Michael Shaver's Facebook profile after the cement slab was poured in September of 2016?
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Yes, there were.
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I'm showing you what was identified as entered into evidence in CH-12. When was that profile picture uploaded onto Michael Shaver's Facebook account?
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January 2nd, 2018.
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When you viewed this picture, did it seem unusual?
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And why was that?
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It does not depict Michael Shaver anywhere in it.
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So did you do any research into this photograph? I did. What did you utilize in order to research this photograph?
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So I used what's called a reverse image search. So we can, anybody can do it. You can save an image to your computer. In this case, this image. And you go to Google and click on a little icon that looks like either a camera or a photo. And you can put that photo in to Google search. And Google will search all of the internet to see if that photo has ever been posted anywhere else.
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And did you find indications of when and where this photo was posted?
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Yes, I did.
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And what was it?
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This photo was posted on a Bloody Mary Mix Company's Instagram page called, I believe it was Redneck Sportsman's Juice.
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I'm showing this to Marcus. It says BBB for identification. Do you recognize it says BBB?
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Yes, I do.
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Is that cover photo taken from the Michael Shaver Facebook page? Profile that is already in evidence?
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Yes, it is.
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Prior to retaining an attorney, had you spoken with law enforcement? Yes. About the matters of this case?
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Did you ever go over to her residence and spend the night during this time frame?
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56. Same objection, Judge. All right, objections overruled. What date was this cover photo published?
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November 14, 2017.
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So almost two years from his disappearance.
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That's correct.
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Did you look at the IP log history associated with Michael Shaver and Laurie Shaver's Facebook in and around the time that this was posted? Sure. What activity in and around the date and time of this cover photo posted here on Michael Shaver's Facebook?
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November 14, 2017, the IP addresses are the same. Mike Shaver's account was a login activity that was done at 1558, four-day-at-a-time. Lori Shaver's account on the same day at 1559, universal four-day-at-a-time, and it was also a login.
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So within two minutes of each other. That's correct. Prior to Michael Shaver's disappearance, what was... the general content of his Facebook posts? Mike Shaver's Facebook activity was primarily focused on the airplanes. Did he post pictures of himself, his friends, airplanes, things related to that? Yes.
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During any point in your relationship, did you spend the night over at her house?
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Now, prior to his disappearance in November 2015, did Michael Shaver's Facebook show a lot of mean posts? Only one that I can recall. And after his disappearance in November of 2015, did that change? It didn't. That's what has been previously marked as states CCC for identification. Showing the witness states CCC for identification. What is that?
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The meme that was posted to Mike Shaver's Facebook account. And that's basically one page from the 3,000 pages that's already in evidence? That's correct. The state moves CCC into evidence at stage 57. Any objections?
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Any objections over rules?
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First of all, what was the date of this post? January 5th, 2016. And what is the content of the meme itself? What did it say? Don't take a good woman for granted. Someday someone will come along and appreciate what you did. Now, did you look at the Facebook activity as far as the IP logs associated with Michael Shaver's Facebook and Lori Shaver's Facebook for that day? Yes, I did.
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that you were married at that time, is it fair to say your wife did not know about these by purpose?
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Does that appear on the summary page 9? Yes, it does, sorry. And what was the activity related to this post on Michael Shaver's Facebook compared to Lori Shaver's Facebook? Mike Shaver's account uploaded a photo.
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Lori Shaver's account uploaded a photo. And what were the times of those? Mike Shaver's was at 16.05 UTC. Glories was a 208 universal coordinated time.
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But sharing the same IP address. Correct. State is showing defense when it's been previously been marked as states DDD. Showing when it's states DDD. Do you recognize that exhibit? Yes, I do. And what is that exhibit? Also, a meme was posted to Mike Shaver's Facebook account. Is that... from the same Facebook records that we've been talking about.
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Objection, Judge. It's opinion test speculating about his wife's understanding and factual state of mind.
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State moves states D, D, D into evidence of states 58. Any objections?
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Objections overruled.
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First of all, when was this posted? January 18, 2016. And can you go ahead and just read the content of the meme itself? Some people need to mind their own business. Hashtag get a life. Okay. Was there activity on the same IP address from Michael Shaver and Lori Shaver's Facebook accounts on that day? Yes, there was.
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And can you go ahead and tell the jury, first of all, when the activity was on Michael Shaver's account?
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January 18, 2016, 335 Universal for a date of time the photo was uploaded. January 18, 2016. 15-21, Universal Court data time, photo was uploaded to Lori Shaver's.
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I'll rephrase, Judge. Sorry, did you have knowledge of it? Did you know whether your wife knew or not?
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Now, switching back to Lori Shaver's Facebook, what types of things would be posted on Lori Shaver's account? She would publish photos and also memes. Based on the sheer volume of the records, it's fair to say that account and the large number of pictures of herself, family, kids. Thanks for that, Major. Yes. But did she also post memes quite often? She did.
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I'm showing you what's been previously marked as States EEE. Showing to the defense first. Showing witness States EEE. Do you recognize that? I do. And is that a post from the Gloria Shaver Facebook records that is already out of that? Yes, it is. All right. This time we have states 58 as evidence and states 59. Same up here. All right.
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My wife did not know.
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So states E over defenses objection states EEE will be entered into evidence of states number 59.
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You definitely didn't tell her?
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First of all, when was this posted? January 8th, 2016. And what is the content of of the post itself?
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The photo says, sometimes you just have to turn around, give a little smile, throw the match, and burn that bridge.
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Objection.
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Now, going down further on that same page, is there a reference to the next post? There is. And what is the reference to the next post that appears on the page? Awesome day getting dirty. And what date and time was that post? January 8, 2016. At 001A, Universal 4D, the time. And on the following page of the Facebook records is there a photograph that's associated with that post? Yes, there is.
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Overruled. Please move on.
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I'm showing the defense what has been previously been marked the state's FFF for identification. You recognize the state's FFF for identification? Yes, I do. And what is that? It's a photo of Lori Shaver with mud on her shirt. And is that the... The next page in the Facebook records that we've been discussing? Yes, it is. All right.
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Had you stayed out overnight and spend time away when your wife was around, that would raise suspicions. Is that fair? Correct.
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At this time, the state moves states FFF into evidence of states 60.
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Any objection? Objection. Objection is overruled.
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Now, during your review of the Facebook records of Michael Shaver... Specifically referring to the photographs that were sent through Michael Shaver's Facebook account to Vanessa Thompson, did you find evidence of photographs contained within there associated with this photo? Yes, I did. I'm showing the defense what has been previously been marked as states GGG for identification.
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I'm showing the witness states GGG. Do you recognize those photographs? These were from, I believe these were from Lori's Facebook. Or were these from Michael's Facebook and the images? Those were from Michael Shaver's Facebook. The images sent to Vanessa Townsend. They are the images that were sent to Vanessa Townsend. All right, this time the statement states GGG and evidence that states 61.
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Second objection, Judge. Objection is overruled. So the photographs on the left and right are from the... from the photo sent to Vanessa Townsend. The photo in the middle is the picture from Laurie Shaver's Facebook profile? That's correct.
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Returning to Michael Shaver's Facebook, as you were going through, other than that photo from the bar, were there other photos, was there another photo that drew some suspicion? Yes, there was. I'm sure a defense one has been previously been marked that states, I, I, I. Is that the photo? that you found suspicious from the Michael Shaver Facebook account. Yes, it is.
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You're at this time to say move seats I, I, I into evidence of seats number 62.
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Any objection, Mr. Wiggs?
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No, sir. All right.
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Objection zero.
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Sustained.
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Is that the photo that we were referring to on the left-hand side? Yes, it is. And first of all, why was that suspicious to you? Like some of the others also did not depict Michael Shaver. All right. And when you... At your suspicions, what do you do to look into it? A reverse Google image search. Using the same process that you talked about from the bar photograph? That's correct.
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Were you trying to avoid raising your wife's suspicions?
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And what did you learn when you did that? This photo is not original. It's been shared on the internet numerous times. Was there... Any other related information that you got from Facebook associated with this post? Yes, there was. And what is that? This photo was uploaded along with a check-in location.
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What is a check-in location? Facebook gives users the ability to let people know where they are. Whenever they go to the app, they can check in and basically tell people that they are at a specific location.
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Now, do you actually have to physically be at that location in order to do a Facebook check? You do not. Was there information on the IP logs associated with this photograph and the summary? Yes, there was. And can you indicate, first of all, is 53, 54 of that summary? July 25th.
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Did she tell you about her marital status?
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There's the IP address along with another IP address that was also used in the same time frame. Mike Shaver's account with a login, login, and then also an action photo upload.
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And was there activity on Lori Shaver's Facebook? We want the same activity. I see your address. Yes, there was a password change. And what is the time, first of all, the time of the Michael Shaver Facebook profile associated with this check-in in the middle of Lake Okeechobee?
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Mike Shaver's account was on 7-25-2016 at 13-10 Universal Coordinated Time. The password change on Lori's account was the same date at 13-04-2016.
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Universal for data done. So within six minutes both of these accounts are utilizing the same ideas, right? That's correct. Now as you were going through Michael Shaver's Facebook profile, focusing on the messages and screenshots of text messages sent from Michael Shaver's Facebook to Vanessa Thompson, did you find screen captures of text messages between
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And what did she tell you?
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That she was going through a divorce.
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Jeremy Townsend and Lori Shaver, where they were, appeared to be in some sort of apartment.
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Yes, they did.
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What was the time frame of these pet specimens? February 23rd, 2016. And taking that information, did you look at the messages sent from the Michael Shaver Facebook account, the first message that was sent to Vanessa Townsend, basically indicating that the person with that account wanted to speak to Vanessa. Yes. Going ahead and pulling up that portion of the records.
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Did she tell you her husband's name?
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When was that attempt to reach out to Vanessa done? February 25th, 2016. Going to go ahead and get away from Facebook now. We're going to move to financial records. Talked about getting the records for Lori Shaver's bank accounts and checking accounts. We also obtained the information for Michael Shaver's bank accounts. Yes, I did.
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Michael Scherer.
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Did she tell you where he was?
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Showing you what's been previously marked, states JJJ, any of those records. Yes, they are. All right. This time the state moves states JJJ into evidence with certain showing to the defense.
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It shows the same objection as the relevance, probative value, and authentication, as we'll say.
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She said that he had left with a friend in a vehicle.
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All right. The objections are overruled.
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Now, what time frame of records were obtained? The records began... Summer of 2014 until March 2016. Now, Friars was his parents in November of 2015. What kind of activity appeared on his financial records, bank records?
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What I refer to as financial transactions indicative of normal everyday life. What do you mean by that? Physical locations in stores, retail establishments, restaurants.
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When did that happen in relation to when you started this physical relationship with her?
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and system paychecks, paying utilities bills. And the time frame that we have published here on pages 69 and 71 of the bank records, what time frame are we talking about? October 28, 2015 through December 24, 2015. Correct. After the basic time frame that you know called no show from work in November 10 of 2015, What types of transactions appear on those records?
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The transactions are, the purchases at least, are no longer consistent with in-store purchases. What types of transactions do we have?
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Purchases online as well as ATM withdrawals. And the ATM withdrawals, do they indicate where those were from? They do. And where were they? Claremont and Disney. Okay, so nothing from Georgia? Nothing from Georgia. In other investigations, have you been able to go through and try to get video from ATMs and things of that nature? Yes, I have. Do they retain that video forever? They do not.
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When this case came, your intention had... video from ATMs expired due to the three years that it had been before the finding was even discovered. Yeah, ATM videos typically only held between 30 and 90 days. And the online purchases, what were those? There were two online purchases to Wish.com. And what was the other online? The other online purchases were for Walmart.com.
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When she told me that Michael had moved out, that was November 2015.
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Had you spoken with them multiple times prior to retaining an attorney?
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Are there any deposits associated with this? There is. And what was that?
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So the time frame that you started going to the house was after that?
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On December 14th, there was an ATM check deposit at the Citrus Tower Boulevard, assuming Chase and Claremont, for $2,539.
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That amount, is that consistent with other financial records that were obtained in this case? Yes, it was. And what was that?
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We received a copy of this check from Mariner Finance, payable to Michael Shaver for $2,539.
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And is that the same check that is referenced there in States 29? Yes, it is. After that check was deposited, what were the next transactions? And just go ahead and read the dates and what they were and the amounts.
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The check was deposited on December 14th. On posting day December 14th, there was a $100 withdrawal in Disney. On December 14th, there was a $200 cash withdrawal from the Citrus Tower in Claremont. On December 18th, there was another ATM withdrawal for $500, also from Citrus Tower Boulevard in Claremont. On December 21st, there was a withdrawal in Groveland for $400.
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It was the first week of December.
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On December 21st, an ATM withdrawal for $500 from Citrus Tower. On December 23rd, another ATM withdrawal from Citrus Tower for $500.
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Now, moving on to page 71. Is this the page that references the transaction with Walmart.com? Yes, it is. And can you go ahead and just point to and say the date and what that transaction was? December 23rd, card purchase.
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The transaction date that's listed in the description of the transaction is 22nd, Walmart.com, $397.16.
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During the course of the affair, would you exchange text messages, phone calls, and photographs?
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And did you do research with Walmart or basically what was purchased in the Dallas state? Yes, I did. I'm showing you what's been previously been marked as states, well, showing defense what's previously been marked as states L-L-L for identification. Showing the witness states L-L-L for identification. Do you recognize that, doctor? Yes, I do.
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And are those the records that you received from Walmart? Yes, they are. Are this kind of state move states L-L-L... Any objection? Judge, same objections. Objections over. Rules. Now, there's two documents on this CDL pull-up. First one first. Go on here. What information is contained in this first page records? This is the order summary for the Walmart purchase that was made. Right.
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And first of all, who is showing from the Walmart records as the purchaser? Lori Shaver. And where does it show that this purchase was delivered? Right here, as well as right here. And here at the bottom, what is indicated here as far as the actual purchase itself? These are the purchase amounts, as well as the date and time.
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And is the purchase amount located on the bottom here consistent with what was from the Mike Schamer bank record? And that also indicates how it was paid? Yes. And is that associated with his credit card? Correct. Going on to the other pages, this includes billing information, other things associated with the Walmart.com transactions? Yes, it is. And once again, who is shown as the purchaser?
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And during this time frame, what was the status of your marriage?
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Lori Schamer. purchased? And what was the types of items that were purchased? From looking at them with the club props that made Christmas, I believe they were Christmas gifts. Looking at Michael Shaver's bank records, was there any activity whatsoever past December 15, 2015? No, there was none. I'd rather say there's no further questions at this time.
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All right, Mr. Wiggs. All the data that you All that's been discussed so far. Does any of it mention homicide?
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I will repeat what I said yesterday.
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Does it mention a homicide?
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The word homicide does not appear in those records.
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Correct. Okay. Does any of the records that you've introduced, do they discuss aiding and assisting somebody from being detected? To repeat what I said yesterday? Anything about preventing somebody from being detected?
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My wife and I were not in a good place. We were kind of going back and forth if we were going to stay or get a divorce.
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Not as you've quoted. Correct.
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Now, you've spoken about financial records. You've shown photographs of Lori with blood on her, correct? With what? Blood on her shirt or something?
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Did you go through the financial records, for instance, and link that for any particular purpose? Which part? The blood on the shirt.
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Yes, I did.
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What's the mud represent?
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The mud was the day that her and Jeremy went to Revolution Off-Road on State Road 33 in Groveland.
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Did you suggest that to the jury? Direct examination?
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There were purchases made.
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Did you suggest that on direct examination?
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That wasn't asked.
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Right, that wasn't asked. Okay. That fact was not in any implication that she had dug a grave or buried Michael Shamer, correct? No, sir. Now, you talked about or you showed images of Lori working out. Any of the Facebook data that you look at indicate her being involved with beach body sales? I have no idea what that is. Okay.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Any of it indicate, did you look through each and every document indicating why she may be working out? Like she enjoyed it? Yeah. A lot of people like to work out. Sure. doesn't suggest necessarily they're planning a homicide, does it? To repeat what I said yesterday? Sir, does it necessarily imply somebody's planning a murder?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Was there ever a time... that Lori Schaber expressed to you that she wanted you to leave your wife to be with her.
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No, it does not.
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If anybody was in the house, Jeremy Townsend, we know he testified he would be in the house, he may have been able to access this account, correct? Theoretically. And there's been no link-up testimony between the IP, the physical residence, and any device, correct? Incorrect. Okay. Didn't you testify yesterday that these IP addresses expire over time?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not that they expire every time, no. My testimony yesterday was that those records were only held by CenturyLink for a rolling 12 months.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that there's no preservation of the IP address for a period of time?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not for CenturyLink.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Right. Facebook, do they interminably keep the IP addresses? They do. In perpetuity? They do. Okay. Do any of the records that you've spoken about show causation of a homicide? To repeat what I said yesterday? I'm not asking you to repeat what you said yesterday. Do any of them show and reveal causation of a homicide? Define causation. The manner of.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And was that what you wanted?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Those records did not know?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Right. You mentioned about banking records. Lori Shaver is not on trial for bank fraud or any such charge like that, is she?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No, she's not.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You've mentioned memes that were posted, correct? I did. One was introduced and it said, I think, something like, sometimes you have to burn the house down and move on.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Did there ever come a time in February of 2016 where Lori Schaber was upset with you about your status with your wife and your refusal to leave the marriage?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The bridge.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Act okay and move on. Okay. That's an expression, correct? It is. Any bridge broke down or anything like that that was relevant?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
An actual literal bridge, sir? No, sir, I did not.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And these memes that you've testified to or have been presented are just standard phraseology, correct? This isn't a personal thing somebody's created necessarily. Well, they can be. Do you know who created these memes? I do not. I didn't look into that. Okay. You do these searches where you can look at photos and see if they're posted anywhere else. Sure.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Do you know if Lori Shaver created that meme, any single meme? I do not. Correct. And going back to all the records that you've spoken about that have been just ushered into evidence at this stage, you're unable to account for any specific evidence number of images to say this definitely came from Lori, this came from this person, this came from this person, correct? I don't believe so.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Why did you retain him?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
One moment, please, Judge.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, sir. Thank you. Redirect. When you're referencing Facebook maintaining IT records in perpetuity, is that how you were able to get the information from Facebook and create where that summary was created from?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That's where those records came from. I have no idea what their retention period is.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
or at least the period of time that you asked for, they were able to give you the IP address associated with all of those posts.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes, they were.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And now CenturyLink and who would be the one that might know or would know who the physical address was attached to those different IP addresses, they have nothing to do with Facebook and vice versa.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
That is correct.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nothing further, Joe. Okay.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Just on this IP issue, just for clarity, Facebook may hold the IP. But that ID is not linkable to the physical address of the guy.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not with the Facebook.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Overruled. You may answer.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not with the Facebook records.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
All right. And may the witness be released from his subpoena. He is subject to recall, but he can step down today. All right, sir. You may step down from the witness stand. If you're subject to recall, please be available. Thank you, sir. Okay. and your next witness.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At this time, the state of Florida rests its case against Florida Sheep.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And during that time frame, how were their text messages about that?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Showing you what's been previously been marked for identification, certain offense, CHQQ.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And first of all, how do you recognize those text messages?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Lori sent those to me.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And does it include communications with you and her back and forth?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Your Honor, at this time, the stage will move States Q2 into evidence of cease. 45, I believe.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
When my name came out as part of this case, my wife and I felt that we would retain an attorney to help us through the process, help us understand the legal side of this.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Same objection, Zach. Same objection. Okay, objection is overruled.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Go ahead and refer to the exhibit that you have there. First of all, there's a couple phone numbers on here on that first page where it says receiver 352-431-01419. Whose number was that? I don't recognize it. Okay. Well, what about 352- From the content as being you and Ms. Shaver?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
The first message that I want to draw your attention to is on the first page, February 23, 2016. Was that a message from Lori Shaver to you?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Up top there in the white, this is one at 10, 17 p.m., what was the content of her message?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Why did you lie to me? That one?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Go ahead and read the whole thing.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Why did you lie to me about Saturday night?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And then moving on to the next page, 10.03.48 p.m., still February 23rd, 2016. What was the content of the message you received from Ms. Shaver there?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
No wonder why you shaved your beard.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What about the first message, the 10.03.48 on the bottom?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Neighbors my ass.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when she's talking about neighbors my ass and no wonder why you shaved your beard, what is she referring to there?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I had shaved my beard completely off. I had a little smaller beard, kind of like yours, and shaved it all off. And she was saying that her neighbors could vouch for the affair.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Going on to the next page at 10.08.45 p.m. on the bottom in the gray, what is the message that she sends to you there?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Nice wedding ring. Thought you didn't wear that anymore.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What is she referring to there?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I had my wedding ring I had put back on, had a picture with my wife. It was posted on Facebook.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Yes. Yes. Yes. The United States Army.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And did this cause arguments between you and Laurie Schaefer?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that was in late February of 2016?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sometime after that, did you learn that your wife found out about the affair?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And how did that come about?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
My wife contacted me April 12, 2016. She had received flowers.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And then did that expose the relationship between yourself and Lori Shaper to her?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not at first, because she asked me who Mike was. And I did not know who Mike was. Once she checked her Facebook and seen the messages from Mike, it started to come out.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And that was when?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
April 2016.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At any point when you were over at the Shader residence, was Michael Shader there?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At any point were you involved with any sort of altercation with Michael Shaver?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At any point did you shoot or injure Michael Shaver?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
At any point were you involved with disposing of the body of Michael Shaver?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And after the affair was exposed, what happened with your relationship report?
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I cut it off.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Thank you. Mr. Wiggs? Yes, sir.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Let's go back to the original part of your testimony, Mr. Townsend. You represented you had tension with the wife and you broke up with her. Well, you weren't seeing her, right? You were just sleeping with her? With who? Your wife. Say it again? You were still living in your marital residence, correct? Yes. And you stated earlier y'all were having problems the two of you, correct?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
So you guys are having problems and you're cheating on your wife, correct?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And at the same time you said, but I don't want to end the relationship, correct? Correct. Okay. So you stated that you go over to Lori's about one to three times a week, correct? Correct. And what time would that be? 11 to 12. Okay. Never any earlier, correct? Correct. In fact, you went over there more than one or three times a week, correct? No. In fact, you got Lori pregnant, did you not? No.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Sir, from 1998 to 2003. And why did you leave the military? I was shot three times in Afghanistan and was almost killed. Was medically retired out.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You stated that you never spent the night there, correct? Correct. So if anybody were to testify they saw you spending the night there, you know where that may be coming from? Somebody look like you, you know?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I would not know who would say I stayed the night there because I never stayed the night there.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You ever represent to Lori you'd protect her from Michael? That you were a military guy and had special training?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Not in that sense. No. You were in black ops? No.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. Your position. We've heard on your direct examination that you met her in September of 2015. Correct? Correct. Okay. Have you ever made a statement inconsistent with that? Not that I'm aware. Not that you're aware of. Okay. I'm going to show you your deposition. Page 5, beginning on line 11 through 12. I want you to read that to yourself.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
What line?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
11 through 12. Do I refresh your recollection?
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Hang on. It just goes on to say how I met her.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I asked you, have you made a statement inconsistent with that September of 2015 date? In fact, on line 11, you say, I met her in the park. I don't know when. I mean, it was a long time ago. Correct? That was your statement earlier in time, correct? Correct. Now, we're at trial years later, and you've got it pinpointed to a particular month and year, correct? I don't have to pinpoint it.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
You did on your direct examination. You said September of 2015, correct? As I went back. Sir, did you not say on direct examination September 2015? Correct. Did you not? Earlier, you're telling me I don't remember when. Correct? Correct. Okay. In fact, you went to the house, spent Christmas with the Shavers. Did you not?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Where were you shot?
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Through both my legs and one right through my side.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
If anybody were to take the stand and say otherwise... Do you have any idea why they may be mistaken about that fact?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was there before Christmas, but I did not go there and spend Christmas with the Shavers.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Well, how long were you before Christmas?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I was there the first two weeks. Kids got out of school for Christmas break, and I was home with my family.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So how long did you spend during that time period around Christmas with the Shavers?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Now, do you know Lori Shaver?
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The first two weeks of December 2015.
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Ever go shopping with the Shavers?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Since this, since Lori, you went back to your wife. I didn't leave my wife. Well, you were over there with Miss Shaver having an affair, were you not?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I wouldn't say that's gainfully spending time with your wife, is it, sir?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
And when you went back to your wife, is it not a fact you continued to follow Lori?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Never met her in a store? No. Never pulled up to her next to the light?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
How did you meet her?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
98, okay. And 2003, correct? Correct. And you suffered this injury, correct? Have you worked at all since then? Nursery? I did work. Okay. And you're receiving government aid and assistance, correct? Yes. Did you tell the government about that? You're working? Relevance? Answer the question, please. Did you tell the government about that?
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I met her at one of the public parks.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
I didn't have a retirement at that time when I first got out.
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Part 5: The State of Florida vs Laurie Shaver | The Murder of Michael Shaver
Okay. So when you got retirement later, then you became more ill or something? Yes. Okay. Are you working today? No. I'd asked you earlier if you were in special ops or a sniper, I believe, correct? Correct. Okay. Did you ever represent anybody that you were? Not that I'm aware of. Okay. Let me show you your deposition. Page 8, line 25. I want you to read that to yourself.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. So do you have that address, the location where it was at?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was rural Brooklyn.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's fine.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I have the report in front of me.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, that's fine. If you want to refresh your memory to the address, please do that.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
4123 200th Street.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is a rural area near Brooklyn, Iowa?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I do.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How long did you spend searching the trailer that belonged to Christian Bahena-Rivera?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Approximately three hours.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In your search of the trailer, did you notice any other bloodstains, bloody areas, anything of that nature?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. This area that appeared to be blood, you actually overlooked that at the Sallyport on that day. Is that right? Correct. We were able to collect that stain, though, two days later when the car was brought to the DCI lab? Yes. It's a reddish stain. I don't have a pointer on this view, but it's a reddish stain that we can see here on the rubber seal.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There were a couple areas that we screened for blood, but they were negative, presumptive.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you find anything in the trailer that belonged to Molly Tibbetts?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not that I'm aware of.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And was that the only time that you would have searched the trailer that you described?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ms. Freeze asked you about the search of the Malibu, correct? Yes. And she asked you about cross-contamination, is that right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Would you have had any item in your possession that would have either purposely or inadvertently been placed in the Malibu that would have had Molly Tibbetts' blood on it?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No. All of the doors and the trunk were sealed at the Palaszczuk County Sally Park before we left.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You did that sealing, is that correct?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, and when the car arrived at the lab, were those seals still in place?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, they were, and it was documented by the person who received the car.
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There was no evidence that you found of any kind of tampering with the vehicle? Not that I'm aware of, correct. All right, that's all I have at this time. Thank you.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Any recrosses?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Does your office have a specific section that deals with weapons?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Our firearms section deals with guns. I'm not sure beyond that what you're referring to. No further questions.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Anything else to this witness, Mr. Brown?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, Your Honor. Our final witness of the day is Tara Scott. Ms. Scott, good afternoon.
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Good afternoon.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Please state your name for the record.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Tara, T-A-R-A Scott, S-C-O-T-T.
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And how are you employed?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I am a criminalist in the DNA and crime scene sections at the Iowa State Crime Lab in Ankeny, Iowa.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How long have you been employed at the crime lab?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I have been a criminalist since October of 2007.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you called to the area in Brooklyn, Iowa on July 20th of 2018? Yes. And what was the purpose that you were called to Brooklyn, Iowa on that date?
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We were to look for any body fluids or signs of a struggle inside of a house and garage.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Where was that house located in Brooklyn?
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May I refer to my notes to refresh my recollection? Yeah.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I can help you with the address, actually.
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Ms.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Scott, was the address that you were called to analyze or search 622 West Des Moines Street in Brooklyn?
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Yes.
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Do you know who that house belonged to? It was friends of the missing person. Friends of Molly Tibbetts? Yes. Is the name Blake Jack or Dalton Jack? Does that refresh your memory? Yes. Did you examine the house at 622 West Des Moines?
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Yes.
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Did you look for signs of a struggle? Yes. Did you find any?
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No.
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Did you examine the doors and the windows of 622 West Des Moines? Yes. And did you find anything unusual? Who was with you, by the way, on the crime scene team at 622 West Des Moines? Kelsey Rusbarski. Were other agents from DCI present as well? I believe there was one present with us. Okay. And how would you generally describe the interior of the home as far as how it was kept? It was lived in.
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Okay. And did you see, were there two dogs that also were at the house? They were removed before we arrived. Were you told that they had been in the basement prior to your arrival? Yes. Now, whenever I ask you, did you see any signs of a struggle, what does that mean to you?
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We're looking for overturned furniture, if there's body fluids, if there's hairs, you know, clumps of hairs, something like that, anything to indicate that there was a struggle that had occurred.
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Did you know who the missing person was at the time that you searched the house at 622 West Des Moines? Yes. Who was that? Molly Tibbetts. Did you find any items in the house that readily were indicated to you that they belonged to Molly Tibbetts? Yes. Can you just describe those for us, please?
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Yes.
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That stain was collected when?
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We found her wallet that had some cards with her name in it and her driver's license and a water bottle in the bedroom we were told she was staying in that had her initials on it, MT.
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On the 22nd of August.
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Did you seize or take any of those items at that time? Yes. All the ones that you just listed, did you take those?
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We took the water bottle, but I don't believe the crime scene team collected the wallet.
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So the water bottle that was taken was the water bottle that had the initials MT? Yes. Why would you have taken a water bottle such as you described?
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We were looking for anything that might contain her DNA.
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So I know you're a DNA analysis, but how would that work? What would you do in order to try to obtain Molly Tibbetts' DNA from that water bottle?
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Whenever the car was brought back to the crime lab, were the other items that we see here in the trunk, were those still there?
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Something like that. We would swab the mouth area and use that swab to run to see if I could develop a DNA profile from it.
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Did you seize any other items that you could have done like testing? Yes. What items were those?
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a arnold palmer half and half iced tea lemonade can a dr pepper can and a reach brand toothbrush from the upstairs bathroom where what i collected for possible DNA from Molly.
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All right. Ultimately, which of those items was used to gain a presumptive DNA profile of Molly Tibbetts? The bubble water bottle. Okay. And I use the term presumptive DNA profile, correct? Yes. What does that mean?
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That means we presume that's her profile, but it's not taken directly from her, so we can't say with 100% certainty that's her profile.
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And do you make other efforts to confirm that profile as Molly Tibbetts? Yes. How is it that you would go about doing that?
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We requested known samples from her biological mother and biological father and did a comparison to see if she could or could not be eliminated as a child of them.
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Yes.
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Okay, and what were the results of that particular testing?
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Were they in, for the most part, the same position as you see them here in the photo?
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The profile could not be eliminated as a child of Molly. her biological parents.
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So does that mean that the DNA profile that you developed off of the water bottle is the presumptive DNA profile of Molly Tibbetts? Yes. Was there anything else of significance that you took from the house for purposes of further analysis? I don't believe there's anything else tested that we took. How long did you spend at the house searching for items?
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We were there at 4.45 p.m. and left at 9.02 p.m.
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Is it safe to say that you keep fairly extensive notes as to what your activities are on any particular examination? Yes. All right. Ms. Scott, the rest of your involvement in this case has to do with DNA analysis. Would you agree?
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Yes.
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Nothing else was added or taken away that you know of? We've talked to you a bit about how long you took to examine the Malibu on two different occasions. Whenever you were called out to the area where Molly Tibbetts was located, how long did you spend searching that area for any evidence or clues?
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Yes.
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All right. And you did DNA analysis in this case on really two separate occasions. Would that be true?
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Yes.
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All right. Now, before we get into the items that you tested, were you provided any known DNA samples in this particular case? Yes. And what were those known samples?
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Those were the family, the mother, two brothers, and father of Molly Tibbetts.
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Were you able then to confidently say that you had the known profile of Molly Tibbetts?
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Yes.
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All right. And would you have used that for comparison to other items in the case that would have been collected that have possible DNA? Yes. All right. Were you also provided the known DNA profile of the defendant, Christian Bahena-Rivera?
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Yes.
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Did you have any other known profiles that you would have utilized in this case to make comparisons to any of the items that you examined?
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No, I don't believe I did have any additional.
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All right, let's talk about the items that you performed DNA analysis on, okay? Okay. There were a pair of black shorts, a pink fabric band, and a striped fabric that appeared to be underwear that were located in the cornfield near Molly Tibbetts' body. Is that correct?
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Yes.
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Did you perform DNA analysis on those three items?
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Yes.
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Specifically, what were you looking for on those items?
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I was looking for any DNA that might be on there, either Molly's or somebody else's.
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Okay. Did you also look for the presence of sperm?
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Yes.
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All right. What was the result with regard to the analysis for the presence of sperm?
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On the black shorts, I tested 15 areas, and a screening test did not indicate the presence of seminal fluid on those 15 areas.
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So you first screened for what was it? Seminal fluid. Okay. And if it screened negative, you don't perform any other analysis. Is that right? With regard to that?
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With regard to some of the wood, no.
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Okay. But you would have performed screening tests for blood, is that right? Yes. Okay. Any other screening tests that you performed that you just described, any other screening tests at all on the shorts or the pink fabric brand or the fabric that was believed to be the underwear? No.
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Yes, I do.
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Okay. Whenever we had you testify this morning, we had States Exhibit 27, which is now on the screen. That's a view into the corn near where Molly Tibbetts was found. Is that right?
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So I also screened the black shorts for the presence of blood. The results were inconclusive on those two areas. I did not note any stains on the pink fabric. So no DNA testing or screening was done on those.
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on the striped fabric screening test indicated the presence of blood, but did not indicate the presence of seminal fluid on one area of the striped fabric, and no sperm were microscopically identified in that sample.
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Okay, did it screen positive for blood?
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Yes.
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Okay, and what were the results of that analysis?
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The DNA factors that I detected in the epithelial fraction of that striped fabric sample were too weak for conclusive interpretation.
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We were there until at least lunch, so four or five hours.
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Okay, so I want to ask you a couple questions about weak samples. That's what you commonly call it, is that correct? Yes. Is it common in your field of work and expertise to get weak samples? Depending on the situation, yes.
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I think in popular media, people have the notion that if you touch anything, rub up against anything, cough on anything, anything of that nature, your DNA is going to be left behind that can be identified. Is that true?
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No.
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Were there items submitted to you, a folding knife and a napkin with red stains that came from the residence of Christian Bahena-Rivera? Yes. And with regard to the folding knife, can you please describe to the jury what the results are of that particular testing and analysis?
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Screening tests did not indicate the presence of blood on three areas of the folding knife. No DNA testing was attempted on that item.
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Okay, and Jonna Berry was the person who assisted you at the field, is that right? Yes, she did. Okay, and was she with you on the time whenever you examined the Malibu at the Sally Porter at the garage at the sheriff's office in Montezuma? Yes, she was. And did she also assist you in the search of the Malibu on August 22nd of 2018? Yes, she did. At any time...
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And with regard to the napkin with red stains that came from that same location, what were the results of that DNA analysis?
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Screening tests indicated the presence of blood on the one stain that was screened on the napkin. The DNA profile developed matched the known DNA profile of Christian Rivera, and the probability of finding this profile in a population of unrelated individuals chosen at random would be less than one out of 26 octillion.
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Just prior to the break, Ms. Scott, you had given us some information concerning a statistical comparison that you have to make in DNA analysis, is that correct? Yes. The blood that was on the napkin that was taken from the home of Christian Bahena-Rivera, in plain terms, that high of a statistical number means what? It matched. So it's his DNA profile that's on the napkin, correct?
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Yes, his profile matched that profile. All right. And were there other items in this particular case that matched the known profile of Molly Tibbetts?
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Yes.
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All right. Let's talk about one of those, okay? Okay. We've had testimony that a swab was collected from this area, States Exhibit 46 by Amy Johnson. Are you aware of that?
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Yes.
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And Amy Johnson is a co-worker of yours? Yes. Okay. Have you worked crime scenes with her on occasion? Yes. The swab of this area that is right here is on the trunk seal. Would you agree with me?
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Yes.
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All right, and that swab that she collected, was that submitted to you for DNA analysis?
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Yes.
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This swab was taken from the Chevy Malibu belonging to Christian Rivera, would you agree?
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Yes.
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Were you able to obtain a DNA profile from the swab on the trunk seal that we see here in States Exhibit 46? Yes. And were you able to compare that DNA profile with the known profile of Molly Tibbetts?
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Yes.
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What were the results of that analysis?
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The screening tests indicated the presence of blood on those swabs, and the DNA profile that I developed matched the known DNA profile of Molly Tibbetts.
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And is there a statistical number also associated with that you were able to utilize?
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Yes.
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And what is that?
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The probability of finding this profile in a population of unrelated individuals chosen at random would be less than 1 out of 8.2 non-million.
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Before we move on, you had mentioned to me at break that you also had utilized another item that was taken in this case in order to develop the known DNA profile of Molly Tibbetts. Is that correct? Yes. And what was that? It was toenails taken at autopsy. And those were provided to you? Yes. And you were able to develop a profile off of those toenails? Yes.
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And those were the known profile of Molly Tibbetts? Yes. All right. Before we move on to further testing that was done on a trunk liner, were there other items that were taken from the black Malibu that you attempted a DNA analysis on, specifically two stains off of the visor? Yes. And what were the results of that analysis?
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Screening tests did not indicate the presence of blood on two stains on the visor. A screening test did not indicate the presence of seminal fluid in one additional stain on the visor or in three stains on the fabric from the ceiling that was submitted.
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During your examination of the Malibu or the location where Molly Tibbetts was located, did you ever have access to any blood or bodily fluid of Molly Tibbetts?
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So essentially all the screening tests were negative? Yes. And then there were two areas on a football that was taken from the car? Yes. And what were the results of that DNA analysis?
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Screening indicated the presence of blood on those two areas. The DNA factors that were detected were too weak for conclusive interpretation.
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So you can't... And then there were two stains on the fishing pole that... Were taken from the trunk of the Malibu?
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Yes.
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And before we move on, States Exhibit 43, there's a fishing pole in this vehicle, is that correct? Where my cursor is, that's what that looks like to you?
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Yes.
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And the results of your testing and analysis with regard to the stains that would have been on the fishing pole?
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Screening indicated the presence of blood on two stains on the fishing pole. The DNA factors detected in a sample taken from the handle of the fishing pole were too weak for conclusive interpretation.
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And then lastly, there was a metal pipe that was found in the trunk. Is that correct? I believe so. All right. And did you attempt any DNA analysis on the metal pipe that was located in the trunk of the black Chevy Malibu?
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No.
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And why not?
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I did not see any stains on that metal pipe.
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Were there several items that were sent back to you after your initial testing for DNA in this case? Were there several items that were sent back to you for analysis?
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Yes.
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What was sent to you?
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The pieces of the fabric covered liner from this trunk in the Malibu.
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Okay. And we're looking here at States Exhibit 43. Do you see that?
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Yes.
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Were the liners that we see here in the trunk of the Black Malibu in States Exhibit 43, were those the liners that were sent back to you for analysis? Yes. And that was done in my request. Is that true? Yes. All right. Were those liners removed from the trunk prior to your analysis? Yes. I'm going to show you what's previously been admitted as States Exhibit 49.
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Is this the trunk liner from the black Chevy Malibu?
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No.
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Yes.
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And then States Exhibit 50, what is this a photo of?
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This would be from, like, the back seat looking out.
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So this area would be where the trunk would close at the rear of the vehicle, is that right?
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Yes.
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All right. Now, I see in these two photos, 49... again on the screen, 50 on the screen, there are white stickers that we see on the trunk liner. Do you see those? Yes. What do those represent?
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At this time, I have no further questions of Ms. Johnson. Thank you.
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Those are the areas that I sampled for DNA analysis.
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And how many different locations are there of this trunk liner that you tested?
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There was nine.
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And did you screen each of these areas for the presence of human blood? For blood, yes. Okay, and how many different locations screen positive for human blood?
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There was four areas on the trunk floor liner. There was three areas on what I called the second trunk side liner, one area on the top of the trunk liner, and one area on the trunk door liner. Okay. Okay.
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Defense may cross-examine.
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Now, of all of those locations, we see some of them here in States Exhibit 50, correct? Yes. And was there one particular area where you were able to develop enough of a profile in order to make a comparison?
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Ms. Johnson, a couple questions. First of all, what does cross-contamination mean?
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Yes.
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Were the rest of the stains that you observed on the trunk liner too weak for comparison? Yes. This is States Exhibit 51. And does this picture show the area where you were able to develop a profile suitable for comparison?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And where is it located?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's about in the middle of this picture.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is it near where the tail light would be? Yes. Do you sign it a number at the laboratory?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what is that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This one I called sample 59.3.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And again, that's the location that we see here on the photo, correct? How do you mark this area? What do you do?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
These are stickers that are called tough tags, and that's what I wrote the case number, the sample number, and then the date and initials that I examined it on.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Cross-contamination could occur if something got dirty or someone else's DNA got mixed with a sample, possibly.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So when you have to go back and testify about something, you know exactly what you did and what area you tested? Yes. Just above this sticker, it appears that there's a hole in the trunk liner. Who did that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Is that the cutting that you took? Yes. And were you able to develop a profile from this particular area of the trunk that you were able to match to a known profile in this case?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, and can you describe that analysis, please?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The profile that I developed indicated a mixture of three individuals. I was able to determine a partial profile at 20 out of the 21 locations that I tested. of the major contributor, and that was consistent with the known DNA profile of Molly Tibbetts.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is there a statistical probability that's associated with that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what is that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That would be less than one out of 2.1 nonillion.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, so another very large number, correct?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In very basic terms, what does that mean with regard to the cutting that you took that we see here in States Exhibit 51?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At the 20 locations, I was able to determine a major profile that matched Molly Tibbetts at those 20 locations.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So Molly Tibbetts' blood is in the trunk of the Malibu. Is that a safe conclusion?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The screening tests at that area indicated the presence of blood, yes. All right.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At this time, I don't have any further questions.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I would assume that the lab has pretty strict procedures when making sure that there's no cross-contamination. I'm not sure what you're asking. With your office, are there any safeguards that you have when you're processing a scene?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Thank you. Good afternoon.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Good afternoon.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, could you give me just a little bit more of your educational background in the area of DNA?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Beyond the degree?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Your degree again, what is it?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's a Bachelor of Science in Forensic Science from the University of New Haven in West Haven, Connecticut.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what is a Forensic Science degree?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the Forensic Science, you can choose at that school, you can choose your emphasis in either biology or chemistry, and I chose my emphasis in biology.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what other training or education do you have in the area of DNA testing?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So I've attended multiple trainings over the years, like I said, at least one per year in areas like screening tests and mixture interpretation.
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Have you written any papers, authored any treatises, anything like that? No. And all your training and experience has been in the area of law enforcement?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not sure what you mean by that. All your training has come from law enforcement? It's come from people that work in labs, so not all law enforcement, no.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But has it been provided by law enforcement?
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It's been paid for by law enforcement.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And all your testimony you've given has been by and for law enforcement?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Have you ever worked privately?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Ma'am, I want to kind of walk you through this chronologically because you were pretty involved in the investigation of the death of Molly Tibbetts, correct?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You could say that.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. You were first called. You were called out on July 20th by Trent Vilda. Is that your understanding? Yes. And feel free to follow along in your reports, okay? Now, when you were called out on July 20th, you were called for a missing persons investigation. Am I right on that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And your assignment initially was to go to the home at 622 West Des Moines Street in Brooklyn, Iowa, correct? Correct. And again, you went there and just kind of looked for evidence of foul play, perhaps, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And as you went through there, you noted and seized a number of items. Yes. One thing I noticed from your report is that you noted a gun safe in the home. Do you recall that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you look through the gun safe? Yes. Did you see guns in that safe?
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Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How many guns did you see in that safe?
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In the gun safe, there were 13 long guns. Any handguns? There was a hanging wooden shelf case that contained a .357 revolver.
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But in the gun safe itself, there were no handguns? I do not believe so, no. There were also other items in that safe that caught your attention, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In the hanging wood shelf case, yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, so there were a number of knives that you saw, right? Correct. And where were they?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They were in the hanging wooden shelf case.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, so to the side of the gun case was a hanging wood shelf case kind of on the wall in the hallway, right? Yes. Okay. And hanging from that hanging wood shelf case was a loaded .357 revolver.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When we are processing at the scene, we... are wearing usually a nitrile glove and we use swabs that are in a sealed condition prior to opening them to collect a sample. And then the samples are placed in a box and placed in an envelope and sealed prior to submission.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was in that thing, not hanging from it, yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Inside the hanging shelf case is a loaded pistol, right? Correct. Is it secured and locked? I don't believe so, no. And inside that case with the loaded .357 revolver are a number of knives, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How many knives did you see? I'll have to look and see if I noted. Go right ahead. We did not note the number of knives. Okay. Your report says several knives. Can you give me an estimate?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'd have to look at a picture to give you an estimate. I don't recall.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do you recall if it was more than five? I don't. What kind of knives were these? Do you recall? No. Were they hunting knives, kitchen knives, pocket knives?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They would have been of like a kitchen or hunting variety, not kitchen, but hunting or folding.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, so knives that perhaps like sporting knives or hunting knives. Is that a fair statement? Yes. And why did you take note of the firearms and the knives?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because we didn't know what had happened at that point. We had no clue, so we don't know what will be important later.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, you also went ahead and collected a number of cans and bottles and some buckle swabs, right? Correct. One of the cans and bottles you talked about were the purple and teal water bottle we talked about, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There was also a Dr. Pepper can that was taken from the bedroom, right? Yes. You also got buckle swabs from Molly Tibbetts' mother and her two brothers. What was the purpose of that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Didn't know if we would be able to get the father at the time, so we got those to make comparisons to Molly, to what we thought was probably Molly's DNA, to see if she could be eliminated or included as a relative of them.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ever get the DNA of anyone else that lived at 622 West Des Moines Street?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No. Why not? No one sent it in and we didn't request it.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why did you not request it?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I'm not in charge of the investigation and I didn't know if there was any relevance to it. The closest I come to requesting stuff like that usually is putting it in the report that if there is additional knowns submitted, I can make comparisons.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is it fair to say that you were never asked to make any comparisons to anyone connected to Molly Tibbetts other than someone in her immediate family?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I did not receive anything else to make comparisons to, correct.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you never were asked to compare or make a sample from Blake Jack, Allie Houghton, or Dalton Jack, the other three members of that home, right? Correct. You eventually went ahead and did some testing on those items that you ended up seizing from the home at 622 West Des Moines Street, correct?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You documented those in another report that I think is dated 8-21-18, right? Yes. Item number three was the water bottle we now know as Molly Tibbetts' bottle, right?
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Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Item number four, that's the Dr. Pepper can, and you tested that for DNA, right? Yes. And tell us what we learned from the DNA testing on the Dr. Pepper can.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The DNA profile that I developed from a swabbing of the mouth of the Dr. Pepper can indicated a mixture of two individuals. The profile of a major male contributor was determined. I call that profile male A. Okay.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What steps were taken, if any, to determine who that person we call male A was?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did not receive any other knowns to determine who that was.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, explain this to me. You're there looking at a crime scene. She's a missing person. At this point when you're testing this stuff, do we know if she's deceased or not?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not at this point, no.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So at this point, she's still missing, right? Yes. And the possibility of her being abducted from that home is a very real possibility, correct? Yes. And we have unknown DNA on an item of evidence from her home, and you weren't asked to test that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I didn't receive anything that anybody else is known to compare to it, no.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you tell anybody that you had unknown male DNA in... Molly Tibbetts' bedroom, essentially, on an item taken from that bedroom on the day she disappeared?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I know, and I'll ask you about the specific pictures in a bit, but I know that there's some pictures that have people that have shoes. Their shoes are covered with kind of a blue plastic suit, and it seems to be covering their entire body also.
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That's in this report. I think that's as far as I did for notifying.
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Who'd you give this report to?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is put on a website, and it is available to the county attorneys and the law enforcement agency.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then item number five is the Arizona can. That's the Arnold Palmer, right? Yes. And again, you had a mixture of Molly Tibbetts' partial profile Right? Yes. And then male A shows up again, right?
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Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And no one asked you to test any further, right?
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Correct.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, on your report, report number two, there's items that go from 11 through... Well, I'm gonna go 21, a number of hairs and then a container containing a possible fingernail. You see those?
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Yes.
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Who seized those hairs and the fingernail?
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I don't know who seized them. They were submitted by the Poweshie County Sheriff's Office.
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Okay, you don't know where they come from?
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I believe those were from a Nissan Altima.
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Now, none of those items in 11 through 20 indicated any presence of Maui Tibbitt's DNA, right?
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Yes, it is.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So there was only one that I was able to do our testing on, and that one was not her. The rest of them were not suitable for nuclear DNA testing. Okay.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then we move on farther to the items that are listed at 32, 33, 34, and 35. I'm going to work backwards there. 35 is a sealed envelope containing rubber gloves. Where did those come from?
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The only thing I have noted, it was they were in an envelope that was addressed to Poweshe County Sheriff's Office. So I don't know where they came from.
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No DNA on those?
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The DNA was too weak.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Item 33 are the black shorts. Now, that's where you first tested for seminal fluid, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I screened those for seminal fluid.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And who asked you to screen those for seminal fluid?
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I looked at them, and I was asked to look at them for DNA analysis, and I looked at, so depending on what the stains looked like, that's how I determined which screening test to do.
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And those were submitted on July 26, 2018, so those were located before Molly Tibbets was located, right?
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Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So those, we don't know if they have any connection to this case at all, right? Correct. The true involvement you really had in this case was after Molly Tibbets was located. Is that a fair assessment?
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There were some people from the medical examiner's office that were more clothed, had more PPE, personal protective equipment, than what I would typically wear at a crime scene.
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For the DNA, yes.
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Yes. Your involvement then became the DNA testing of the items submitted to you, right?
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Yes.
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Now, let's talk about DNA a little bit with the jury because DNA always kind of blows your mind when you use these words like nonillion and megazillion or whatever, okay? Right?
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Right.
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To be fair, it takes very little substance to get these really big numbers, right? Right.
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I'm not sure how to answer that.
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DNA is very small.
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Yes.
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And each person's DNA, unless you have a twin, of course, is unique to that person. More unique than fingerprints, right?
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As unique, yes.
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Okay. Now, these 21 locations you have, those are broken down into further parts, are they not?
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Yes.
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And those are called fractions?
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At each location of those 21 locations, you have two alleles.
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Okay. Those alleles, there's one called an epithelial?
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You're talking about a differential extraction now.
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Okay. So each allele, you have two alleles, you have... 42 alleles in each DNA cell, right?
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That's the 42 locations I'm testing.
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OK.
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There are 21 locations that have 42 alleles, yes. I'm sorry. Sorry. The 21 locations that have 42 alleles.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So let's look at your report now, report number five, dated November 9th of 2018. You first received some left-hand fingernails at item 37. That's the lab number. And the agency number is 01MT. And it goes through item number 40, which includes left-hand fingernails, right-hand fingernails, left foot toenails, and right foot toenails. Am I correct?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, your report says that no examinations were performed on the fingernails, toenails, or the pulled scalp hair at item 41. Do you see that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
States Exhibit 86, which has just been admitted, is what view?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And when you arrived or when you responded to the crime scene, and so specifically the place where Molly Tibbetts' body was, what personal protective equipment did you have on?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But did I hear you say on direct examination that you tested the toenails? The left toenails, item 39. It was 39, okay. What was the purpose, to your understanding, of the fingernails being submitted to you?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They were being submitted as a possible known profile of the Jane Doe at the time.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, is there any way to look at those fingernails and be able to tell if there's any DNA for someone else there?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You could swab them to see if there was DNA from someone else, yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was that ever done?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And DNA, we're sloughing DNA off all the time, aren't we?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, skin cells, yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I mean, it's kind of scary. We slough off millions of DNA cells every day, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But even if you don't have a full DNA profile, a partial DNA profile can tell you something, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I mean, if someone comes by here and swabs the table, they may not be able to say Chad Freeze was sitting here, but they could possibly say a man was sitting here, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Possibly.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Item 42. There were boxes containing two swabs, left and right proximal inner thigh. That's agency number M6MT. Now, tell us what those are.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Those were swabs from the inner thighs of what became molly tippets later. Okay.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right, so someone, and I see here it's probably the medical examiner, took swabs of the body of the inner thigh of Molly Tibbetts, right? Yes. And what was the purpose of doing so?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We're looking for any foreign DNA.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And are you telling me that it's still possible after being deceased for a period of time that foreign DNA would still possibly show up on Molly Tibbetts' thighs?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's possible.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And the results of your testing, what did it indicate? Okay.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I had on our regular uniform and nitrile gloves. Why do you wear gloves when you're dealing with evidence? Depending on what the evidence is, I especially don't want to leave my fingerprints on items or also in the case of DNA, you can leave epithelial cells that would leave your DNA on an item.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
that no profiles were developed from those swabs.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did any DNA at all foreign to Molly Tibbetts show up on her body?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
From those swabs, I was not even able to get her profile. I had no DNA from those swabs at all.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
At item 49, it's described as tape lifts from trunk interior on the black Malibu. What are tape lifts from trunk interior of black Malibu?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They would have taken tape and pressed it against the fabric in the trunk and then submitted that.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
For DNA analysis?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Looking, usually when they submit tape lifts for DNA, they're looking for hairs.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were there any hairs located?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did not examine that item.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why not?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I had other items that I looked at, and then I was not requested to go back and test that.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Item 52 is a pair of black shorts from the cornfield located southeast of the body. You see that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, you tested that, correct?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what did you test that for, first of all?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did a screening test for the presence of seminal fluid, which did not indicate the presence of seminal fluid on 15 areas on those black shorts. I did DNA testing on one area from the front right leg.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what was the conclusion?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And then I also did screening tests that were inconclusive for the presence of blood on two additional areas on the black shorts. And I attempted DNA on both of those areas. And no profiles were developed from the three samples I took from the black shorts.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So these shorts had neither Christian Bahena-Rivera's blood nor his seminal fluid on them. Is that a fair statement?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They had no DNA profile that I was able to develop.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And who asked you to test those shorts for seminal fluid?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That was based on the information I had in the case and what the stains looked like.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So there were stains on those shorts that looked like seminal fluid could be there?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The stains that could possibly be, that's why I screened them.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Then also someone in the case file asked to have those tested for seminal fluid? Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't recall anybody specifically requesting that. I could check the correspondence log. I don't remember anybody specifically requesting seminal fluid.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's fine. Let's move on. Item 53 talks about a pink fabric band located in the cornfield southeast of the body. Do you see that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was that tested?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did not see any stains on that fabric, so I did not perform any testing.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So nothing that looked like blood? No.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And item 54, you note it to be a piece of striped fabric located in the cornfield southwest of the body. First of all, I want you to describe this piece of striped fabric for me.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So my description that I wrote in my notes was it was wadded up when I received it. I unraveled it, and it has one end in a triangular shape with an attached band piece, and I noted it was possibly underwear or half of a bra.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. You can't conclusively say if it was underwear?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I cannot.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Or a bra? Correct. And when testing those, I'm assuming you tested those, was there the presence of blood on those?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, it indicated the presence of blood.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If, for sake of argument, if these were a pair of women's underpants, would you necessarily be surprised to find the presence of blood?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Depending on the situation, no.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Did you also test those for seminal fluid?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And were any indications of seminal fluid found?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The screening test did not indicate the presence of seminal fluid and no sperm were microscopically identified in that sample.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And no DNA profile was able to be determined from that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So no profile was developed from the sperm fraction, and the DNA factors detected in the epithelial fraction were too weak for conclusive interpretation.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Have you heard of cases where police officers' DNA has been found with the item submitted?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So we do not have Christian Bahena Rivera's DNA on that piece of evidence?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I cannot include or exclude anybody from that epithelial DNA.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So we cannot include Christian Bahena Rivera?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I cannot include or exclude anybody.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The napkin Mr. Brown asked you about, the napkin that had one in 26 octillion possibility of being Christian Bahena Rivera's blood, that was found in his trailer, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's my understanding, yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You aren't attaching any significance to that, are you?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It just matched. His DNA was on it. That's all I can say about it.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
On items 58 through 61, now your report was authored 11-9-2018. Those are the trunk liners that you talked about that were tested later, right? Correct. And that's when Mr. Brown asked for further testing, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
This is the view facing back towards the gravel road facing north.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why on earth were they not tested back in November of 2018?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I tested the swab. which was lab item 68, and I had a profile from that, so I did not do any further testing at that time.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I believe that happens.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Where did that swab come from?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That was submitted by the crime scene team.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And did they tell you what they swabbed to get that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was listed as stain on lower exterior rubber seal of trunk of black Malibu.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, the car, this Malibu that you looked at, you were called at approximately 3.30 on August 20th, 2018. Is that right? Yes. And how is it that your office is involved in something?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, so we have the stain on the seal and we go no further? That's the theory?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Once I develop a probative DNA profile, at least to my understanding as a probative profile, I do not continue to test unless requested.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And nobody from Agent Valletta to anyone else asked you to do any more testing, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, Scott Brown asked me to later, yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Until Mr. Brown did, no one else wanted to do any more investigation, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I might ask that calls for speculation as to what anyone else would want to do.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Sustained. No one else asked you to until Mr. Brown did?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't believe so.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, and you tested the football and the fishing pool, and those were inconclusive, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, the DNA was too weak to do any inclusions or exclusions on, yes. All right.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I finally want to talk about these two knives that were seized. The two knives that were seized, did you physically, with your eyes, examine them for blood, the folding knife and the black utility knife?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I just visually examined those.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Any sign of blood?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the Lab Item 70, the Kershaw SpeedSafe brand knife, I noticed there were reddish discolorations on the E in Kershaw on the blade and on the side of the handle where the knife folds. Both of those screen negative for the presence of blood. And the tip of the sharp edge of the knife also screened negative for the presence of blood.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So no blood in that knife?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Not where I screamed, anyway, no.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you take the knife apart?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How about the other knife?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the other one I listed is a Stanley brand silver and black utility knife. There were reddish discolorations on both sides of the blade, and they screened negative for the presence of blood.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And tell the jury, it does not take very much blood to test positive, does it?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I mean, a minute amount.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Very small.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. So when it tests presumptively negative for blood, that's a pretty good conclusion, isn't it?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's as good as the screening tests are, yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And your standards within the State Division of Criminal Investigation, your lab, if it's presumptively negative, you go no further?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Generally, no, I do not.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So let's... Let's move on to the final report. We're a year ahead now. Mr. Brown has asked you to do some more testing. So you test more onto the trunk liner. You take that little piece and you test that, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, so we have four areas. Items 58, 59, 60, and 61, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. Let's start with item 58. There were three areas on that trunk floor liner that had no blood.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The screening test did not indicate the presence of blood on three areas, correct?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So your report talks about DNA testing was attempted on four areas, 58-1 through 58-4. So the fourth area did have some blood.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, there's two sentences in that first one. So there was three areas that screened negative for blood, and then there was four additional areas that screened positive for blood that I tested.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And in those four areas, what did you learn?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The profile that I developed from each of them indicated a mixture of two individuals. That was too weak and complex for conclusive interpretation.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So a mixture of two people's DNA?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And likely at least one of them's blood, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We typically get involved when our agents request our assistance because they may not have the capabilities or the equipment to process the scenes properly.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And you can tell nothing from this mixture?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I cannot include or exclude anybody from those mixtures, no.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You can't exclude Christian Bahena-Rivera from that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I cannot include or exclude.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Why not?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Because the DNA, we have standards to make sure that we are not interpreting stuff that is too weak and making false inclusions or exclusions. So when it's not strong enough to sample, I say it's too weak and complex.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And with this being a mixture also, it might be because there's different levels of DNA that are not clear which one's a major and minor contributor that I'm able to determine in other cases.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So what's the standard? What's the threshold? Tell me that as soon as I can say perhaps any conclusion can be reached. Is it male? Is it female? Is it Christian? Is it not?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So to determine, we generally right now use, we have to have at least eight locations, and we have two different thresholds. And it's called a stochastic threshold, where if there is two different peaks at that location, then you should see that the other peak is there if you're over that stochastic threshold.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
If you don't have at least eight locations that have two peaks that if you consider like the major in that case or above the stochastic threshold, then we say that it's too weak and complex or too weak that we can't do any interpretation on it.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So how many indicators were in this mixture? Can you tell me?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So in 58.1, I have at least one allele at every location of the 21 tested. However, most of them are barely above what is our analytical threshold where we can reliably detect whether or not a peak is present or not. And at some of those locations, their peak height balance is off, which it could indicate that there is either degradation or it might be multiple contributors at that location.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Do they call you directly on your cell phone, or what is it that, how do they get you involved?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
There are three locations where I have three alleles to indicate I have at least two people in this mixture, and they're both very weak.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you're comfortable, though, saying there's at least two individuals there?
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Yes.
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Is it possible to tell any identifiers of the contributors of the two DNA profiles?
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So on the four samples that I took from that, we do what's called, on every sample I do, we do what's called a quant, which estimates the amount of DNA in the sample. It also estimates the amount of male DNA in the sample. So on those four samples, they all had very small indications of male DNA.
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Yes, each of us within the criminalistics laboratory carries a cell phone now as our way of communicating with other people.
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Okay, now can any of that information include or exclude Christian, Bahena, and Rivera?
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It cannot include or exclude anybody still.
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Item 59, we know for a fact I mean, if we can accept one out of 2.1 nonillion as a fact, which I'm willing to accept, that Molly Tibbetts' DNA is in that area of the trunk, right? Yes. But we also know they're a mixture of two other people in addition to that DNA, right?
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Yes.
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We just don't know who. Correct. So in one area of the trunk, we have a mixture of two DNA. And now in this area of the trunk, we have a mixture of three persons' DNA, one of which we know is Molly Tibbetts, right?
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Yes.
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We do not know if it's Christian Bahena, right? Correct. Can we exclude him?
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No, I can either include or exclude.
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Okay, and then he tried to test, or did test, two other areas, items 60 and 61. And what were the conclusions there again?
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Those are also too weak.
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Molly Tibbetts' DNA was not there.
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I was not able to determine, there's too weak for conclusive interpretation, so I cannot include or exclude anybody.
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Very well. One final thing. The stain, the blood stain on the trunk gasket, you recall seeing the picture up on the television screen, right? Yes. It was shown there with a ruler, if you will, for scale, right?
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Who contacted you directly to become involved in this case?
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Yes.
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The size of that stain was quite small, was it not?
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Opposite direction of the photo we just viewed, is that correct? Correct. All right, and that distance again from this location back to the road is how far? Is it a little over 400 feet?
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Depends on what you're comparing to. I don't know.
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Okay. The ruler on the display was a ruler that showed a couple centimeters, right? Yeah, it was three, yes. Okay. And the stain was less than three centimeters, correct?
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I don't remember.
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Well, I'll let the picture speak for itself. I have nothing further.
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Mr. Brown, you may redirect.
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Mr. Fries asked you about obtaining certain DNA profiles from items that were found in the cornfield, including the body of Molly Tibbetts.
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Special Agent in Charge Rick Rohn.
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Yes.
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Can you explain to the jury what causes DNA to degrade?
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Heat, UV rays, and soil has been shown to be an inhibitor to DNA.
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Okay, and whenever we say that DNA becomes degraded, what does that mean to you as a DNA analysis? So when I'm trying to do... I'm sorry, as a DNA analyst.
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And that was at 3.30 p.m., is that correct? Approximately. What did he tell you about the reason he wanted you to become involved?
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So when it is degraded, it starts breaking down, so it starts with the bigger pieces, and then so eventually you get down to the point where I can't detect the DNA anymore, or it's so weak that I can't say, I might say it's too weak.
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So during the autopsy of Molly Tibbetts, they've taken swabs from her thighs and between her legs, correct? Yes. Is that the reason why you can't even obtain Molly Tibbetts' DNA from her own body? That could be a contributing factor, yes. And the last thing here, states exhibit 46. Yes. You were provided a known DNA profile of Molly Tibbetts, correct? Yes.
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Ms. Johnson, I want to take you back to the area in the cornfield that you examined. Let's go ahead and look at those photos we just admitted. 86 is on the screen. Do you see that?
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And you tested this particular area of blood here in States Exhibit 46, correct? Yes, it's screen positive for blood. There were no other contributors to this blood other than a single person?
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It was developed a single source profile. Correct. That matched Molly.
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And this particular bloodstain matched the DNA of Molly Tibbetts?
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He said that there were some vehicles that needed to be processed.
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Yes.
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All right. That's all. I don't have anything further. Our next witness is Trent Villada. Agent Villada, can you please state your name for the record?
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My first name is Trent, and my last name is Vileta. It's V as in Victor, I-L-E-T-A. And how are you employed? I am currently employed by the Iowa Department of Public Safety's Division of Criminal Investigation.
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And how long have you been employed with the DCI? Since 2006. All right, Agent Villada, I want to direct your attention back to July 20th of 2018. Do you happen to remember that day? Yes, I do. Why is that?
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That was the day I was assigned to go to Brooklyn, Iowa. The Palaszczuk County Sheriff's Office had a missing persons case and they requested our assistance with it. Who was the missing person?
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Was it your understanding that there was an interview going on at the same time?
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Molly Tibbetts. Were you assigned by your supervisor as the case agent?
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Yes, my supervisor was Rick Ron. He takes the calls and then he assigns the cases.
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So initially this was a missing person, correct? Correct. Did you go to Brooklyn, Iowa? Yes, I did. Did you make contact with local law enforcement? Yes, I did. Who would that have been?
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The Poshy County Sheriff's Office would be the lead agency on this.
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And their lead investigator is who? Deputy Steve Kivy. Is Steve Kivy someone you had worked with prior to the Molly Tibbetts disappearance? Yes. Somebody you were familiar with? Yes. So do you remember about what time you arrived in Poweshiek County on July 20th of 2018?
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Yes.
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Not the exact time. They were organizing searches from the fire department that day. It would have been relatively early in the morning, maybe between 8 and 9 a.m.
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you were aware that there was a suspect being interviewed simultaneously with your work. Is that right?
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Where did you and other investigators stage up for your work in looking for Molly Tibbetts? The Brooklyn Fire Department. Whenever you arrived in Brooklyn, were you briefed by other officers as to what the status of the investigation was at that time? Yes. And initially, what were your duties?
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So when you have a missing persons case, you don't always necessarily have a homicide or death. So with any investigation, our initial duties is to start collecting information. And it's almost always we collect information on the victim right away or the missing person. And how do you go about doing that? What you do is you start with the people closest to the victim.
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It's usually a small circle of our closest friends and family. That's where we start. We call it a victimology. The victimology is just kind of as it sounds. It's who is this person we're looking for? Who do they associate with? What's their lifestyle like? And then it's, I guess, the best way to describe basic investigative techniques.
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I believe it was a person of interest that was being interviewed at that time.
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All right. And in making that assessment, where would you have put Molly Tibbetts as far as risk?
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So Molly Tibbetts was extremely low risk. And why do you say that? Well, it's the lifestyle that she lived. A lot of our victims, there's drugs and alcohol. There's abusive relationships. Molly Tibbetts didn't have any of those. Molly Tibbetts probably had the nicest text messages we've ever read. We had a hard time finding something negative about Molly Tibbetts.
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So do you start looking at people or gaining information from people that are I'll just characterize it as being in the orbit of Molly Tibbetts? Yes. And just generally speaking, who would that have been?
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And so what they wanted you to do is to search for any clues or any information that could be useful to them. Is that correct? I'm not exactly sure of their intentions, but I suppose that could be helpful to them, yes. While you're searching, are you giving any updates to Rick Ron or another law enforcement officer?
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Generally, you look at the spouse or boyfriend or girlfriend first, family members.
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At the time that you arrived in Brooklyn on July 20th of 2018, did you or anyone else in law enforcement know the whereabouts of Molly Tibbetts? No. You started July 20th of 2018, correct? Correct. And when was the body found in the cornfield believed to be Molly Tibbetts? August 21st of 2018. So are you familiar with the address of 622 West Des Moines Street in Brooklyn, Iowa? Yes, I am.
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Have you been in that residence? Yes. When did you first go into 622 West Des Moines?
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I think then July 20th, 2018 was the first time we went in there.
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Agent Villada, you utilized the crime scene team at 622 West Des Moines in Brooklyn, correct? Yes, we did. All right. And that would have been Tara Scott? Yes. And did she have somebody else with her? She did, but I don't remember who that would have been. So whenever a crime scene team arrives on the scene of any area you want searched, do you brief them first? Yes, we do.
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Did you do that in this case? Yes. Ultimately, would you characterize 622 West Des Moines Street as a crime scene?
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No, there were three crime scenes in this case, and 622 West Des Moines was now one of them.
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What did you learn during the investigation as to who was residing there the week that would have included July 18th of 2020?
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Yeah, so the house belonged to Blake Jack and his fiancée, Allie. It's Houghton, is how you spell her name, and then Blake's brother Dalton. Jack was living there, and then Molly Tibbetts would stay with Dalton majority of the time.
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Other than 622 West Des Moines, where else did you learn that Molly Tibbetts would have resided the summer of 2018? She would stay at her mom's house, too.
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Her mom lived in Brooklyn, and I don't recall that address. Did Molly Tibbetts have a vehicle? If I remember correctly, I think she was sharing a vehicle with one of her brothers when we were talking to her family. It was complicated because she had to get the car back in time for her brother to use it, that sort of thing.
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Whenever you began your investigation into the disappearance of Molly Tibbetts, were you able to develop investigative leads that you were able to assign to other law enforcement agents to follow?
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Yes.
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Whenever we use the term lead in an investigation, what does that mean to you as a case agent and lead investigator?
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Right, so when we develop leads, What we often have to do is we basically call follow the trail, right? So, we have to follow the lead, whichever direction it takes us. Some leads will dry up pretty quickly, some we literally run into the ground. So, a lead is just whether it's a suspect or potential incident site, we follow the lead and try to develop evidence or information from that lead.
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And did you do that in this case? Yes. So if you can, for the jury, can you just summarize the resources that you had at your disposal, particularly initially whenever you were called in to investigate Molly Tibbetts' disappearance?
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Yes, I did give an update of our processing. And what was the update? What did you say? The one update that I gave was about the brown hairs that we found in the trunk. Okay. What did you say that you found in the trunk? I said that we found long brown hairs in the trunk.
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So initially we were kind of thin. I think it was... About the 23rd or so of July, the FBI shows up. So our investigative team would have been the Poweshie County Sheriff's Office, the Iowa Department of Public Safety, and we often refer to the DCI, but the DPS has four divisions, and then of course the FBI.
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And whenever you say you utilized all of them, it wasn't every agent in the state, correct? No, we did not. And in addition to law enforcement, were there other civilians that were engaged in searching the area in an attempt to find Molly Tibbetts?
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Yes. I mean, it was a community effort. Day one, the sheriff's office had organized a probably 200-plus person search of the area at the fire department. We had... airplanes flying over. We would get calls from hospital helicopters asking, saying, hey, we have some extra fuel. Do you want us to fly over a certain area? Is that type of assistance welcome to you and other law enforcement? Of course.
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I mean, the ultimate objective on this whole thing was to locate Molly Tibbetts. So if we could find her, we didn't necessarily care who found her.
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During the course of your investigation, did you or other officers have contact with Dalton Jack. Yes. And what had you learned concerning Dalton Jack's relationship to Molly Tibbetts?
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Dalton Jack was Molly Tibbetts' boyfriend and they were more or less living together.
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Was Dalton Jack interviewed on multiple occasions? Yes, he was. Was there a particular agent that was assigned to him to follow any lead that related to Dalton Jack? During the course of your investigation into Dalton Jack, did you or other officers learn where he was working?
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Yeah, he was working for Jasper Construction and they were actually building a bridge in Dubuque, Iowa during that week.
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What was your understanding concerning his whereabouts the week that would have included July 18th of 2018?
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He was in Dubuque, Iowa until Thursday evening, which would have been the 19th. And...
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Did you take steps to learn Dalton Jack's whereabouts? Yes, we did. Did you or other agents speak with Dalton Jack's supervisor? Yes, we did. Did you also speak with others that may have had contact with him in Dubuque on July 18th of 2018? Yes, we did. And based upon that information, was Dalton Jack eliminated as a suspect in the disappearance of Molly Tibbetts?
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Now, what I'm wondering is there were no hairs that were actually looked at or examined at the DCI. Is that correct?
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Yes, that in addition to some other information too.
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Did you have any person or witness come forward to you or to any other DCI agent indicating that Dalton Jack had been seen in Brooklyn, Iowa or near Brooklyn, Iowa? on or about July 18th of 2018?
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No, no one said Dalton Jack was in Brooklyn on the 18th of July.
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In an effort to corroborate that, you or other agents spoke to other witnesses? Yes. People that worked with him? Yes. Did you also examine Dalton Jack's phone? Yes. Was there anything inconsistent that you found or other agents found that would have been inconsistent with his whereabouts being in Dubuque, Iowa or near Dubuque, Iowa? on July 18th of 2018?
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No, we could not find anything that would place him in Brooklyn, Iowa that day.
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Did you utilize anybody from the FBI?
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Yes, we did.
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The Federal Bureau of Investigation to assist you in analyzing the phone data of Molly Tibbetts? Yes, we did. And just in general, what was the purpose of that request?
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Kevin Horan from the FBI, special agent there, was the first one that came and he was able to utilize her phone data to basically show her location. where her phone's location is. Yes, we're able to use phones to show locations of people.
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And based upon that information from Agent Horan from the FBI, did you and other agents search an area near Brooklyn, Iowa for any clue concerning Molly Tibbetts' disappearance? Yes, we did. And where would that area have been?
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I'm not sure what happened with the hairs. That's beyond my expertise.
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Well, we searched from 385th all the way to the southeastern quadrant of the county.
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On the screen is exhibit six. Do you see that? Yes. And this has been described as 385th Avenue leading east out of Brooklyn. Would you agree with me? Yes. Is this the area generally that you begin searching based upon the information Agent Horan had provided you from the FBI? Yes, it is. All right. You also indicated there was an area south. of this location. Would you agree? Yes. All right.
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And how far south did you go, just in general terms, with regard to what area you would have searched for the location of Molly Tibbetts?
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It was a couple miles south of Guernsey, which I want to say maybe eight or ten miles south of 385th.
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Have you reviewed Tara Scott's? Have you reviewed her report? No. So you're not aware that she never tested those hairs? I do not know what was done with the hairs. Did you convey any more information that could be of assistance to law enforcement?
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When did it happen? What date was that that you would have been looking?
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Well, we had the initial information from Christina Stewart that she saw her out there. So I know lots of people were driving that road 385th, but not until Kevin Horan got there did we have more specific locations to look at. So that would have been... like I said, the Tuesday or Wednesday that he arrived after the FBI got there.
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All right. Give the jury, if you would, a description of the kind of the lay of the land, the crops that were in the field, what you were up against as far as investigators and searching for any clue as to the disappearance of Molly Tibbetts.
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Corn at that time was, I would guess, pretty much fully grown. The beans were fully grown and then the ditches were all So, you know, you have an almost two-thirds of the summer where grass is growing within the fields. Most of the roads, 385 south, is all either gravel or dirt.
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Initially, in the course of your investigation, really through July and into the first part of August, did you ever run across the name of Christian Bahena-Rivera? No. No. Did you ever have any information up until August or mid-August, around the 14th, that there was a black Malibu that was associated potentially with the disappearance of Molly Tibbetts? No. All right, this is Exhibit 10.
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That's on the screen. Do you see that? Yes, I do. Is this a particular area of Poweshiek County? That's our search locations near Guernsey, Iowa. And this is not all of the search locations in the southeast part of Poweshiek County. Would that be true? It's not all, no. All right, there are red flags or half circles that are on the map. What do those represent?
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Those would represent areas or houses that we would have made contact. So were you going farmhouse to farmhouse? trying to get any information concerning the whereabouts of Molly Tibbetts? Yes, we were. All right. And this was a map that you would utilize so you didn't duplicate efforts? Yes. Ultimately, you were at the location where Molly Tibbetts was recovered. Is that true? That's true.
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How close did your systematic search of the area that you were given by Agent Horan get to where her body was ultimately located? I think relatively close, maybe between a quarter to a half mile away. Were there... Potentially other persons of interest or potential suspects that DCI developed or talked to over the course of the investigation? Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It's been brought up in this case the name of Wayne Chaney. Are you familiar with him? Yes, I am. Did he live in the area near where Molly Tibbetts was located? Yes. Was he interviewed? Multiple times, yes. So a law enforcement paid attention to him? A lot of attention. Yes, we did. Ultimately, was he eliminated as a suspect? Yes, he was. And that was based upon investigation? Yes.
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I asked them at the end of our processing, I requested that the vehicle be submitted to the laboratory because my equipment was not working properly.
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And were there others? There were several others that we looked at, which I would say a deep dive was taken into.
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Was there a person that was talked to that had been near the cemetery near 385th and Brooklyn? Yes. Who was that? I think his name, the last name was Jackson Eichhorn. And was Jackson Eichhorn interviewed? Yes, he was. Did you make attempts to place him at any certain locations related to Molly Tibbetts?
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430, I believe it was.
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Again, you know, we took a deep dive into Jackson Eichhorn like everybody else and could not find anything that would implicate him in Molly Tibbetts' disappearance.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Of all the people that you talked to in the investigation, up until the time that the Black Malibu was identified, were you able to develop any other leads that were substantial that would have led you to information as to what happened to Molly Tibbetts? No, we didn't.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Describe for the jury, if you would, what steps were taken in an effort to collect surveillance video in Brooklyn, Iowa, on or about the date that Molly Tibbetts would have disappeared.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So what we do when we... have a case like this, we do what we call canvassing. So, we go to each house, kind of start possible, maybe a run route for Molly and go to those houses and then we expand out. In the course of our canvas, one of the things we always look for is locations for cameras on the house, on the garages, on the businesses.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And was one of those homes at 616 East Des Moines in Brooklyn? Yes, it was. Who lived there? Logan Collins. And what had officers noticed about cameras at Logan Collins' residence?
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One of the things that I note is there were several different kids items that were found in the Chevy Malibu. Is that right?
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Yes, they noticed he had cameras, and I think he had four cameras that... they could observe.
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And were agents tasked with making contact with Logan Collins? Yes. Ultimately, what happened with regard to the footage that his cameras would have captured that would have included July 18th of 2018?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Well, the footage on Logan Collins' cameras broke open the case for us. It was the lead that we needed, provided not only the black Malibu, but it also had a very brief glimpse of Molly Tibbetts jogging.
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You would agree with me that looking at that footage, the runner is more or less a shadow that comes across the screen. Is that right? Right. And what did you know about Molly Tibbetts' running habits that would have further drawn your attention to this particular date and time?
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Well, we had Fitbit data that showed previous run routes, and we knew through the Fitbit data that that would be a route that she would often take. We know she was probably abducted. We were able to guess, I guess, a possible route through those cameras.
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based upon your review of the video and other agents review of the video was there a particular vehicle that you then began to search for yes it was a black malibu and it had aftermarket chrome mirrors on it it also had chrome handles yes and did it have some sort of sporty spoked wheel as well it did yes okay and looking at the video you Can't see a license plate. Is that right?
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Yes.
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And specifically, there was a SpongeBob plastic bag, is that right? Yes, that was in the trunk. There was a pink child's toy?
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No, we can't.
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But you had a fairly good description of the vehicle. Would you agree? We did, yes. After this video, did you provide that type of information to other investigators in the case?
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Yes, so what we did then is we basically took a still shot from the camera and printed out that picture, and then we assigned several cars to drive around the area to see if they could not locate the vehicle.
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Ultimately, was a vehicle fitting that description located by an officer? Yes, Steve Kivy found the vehicle. Okay, and do you remember what date that was?
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I'm not exactly sure what day.
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I think we had previous testimony that was August 16th. Does that make sense? That makes sense, yes. Were you approaching a weekend on August 16th?
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We were. I think that was a Thursday, and then Friday was everything kind of getting shut down.
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So you had this particular lead based upon what Steve Kibbe told you. Were there several days that passed before you made contact with the defendant, Christian Bahena-Rivera, and the Black Malibu? Yes, there was. Why was there a delay in that time frame?
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Well, at that part of the investigation, a lot of our resources were depleted, I think. That was the time when Wisconsin had a missing girl going on, so we lost a lot of our FBI resources, and we didn't have any Spanish speakers. So Deputy Kibbe's contact with Christian Bahena-Rivera made it clear to us that we needed a Spanish speaker to talk to him. So you had to plan? Yes. Right.
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And that helps to do things efficiently, would you agree? Well, we wanted to do things correctly. Were you able then to marshal resources and make a plan for August 20th to make contact with the defendant, Christian Bahena-Rivera? Yes, we were. What was the plan on August 20th? Summarize that for us.
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Yes.
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Where was that found?
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In the trunk.
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Well, we knew we wanted to interview Christian Rivera based on the video. We knew where he worked. We knew he worked at Yarrabee Farms. We needed to make sure we had good Spanish speakers out there. And we also wanted to talk to people that he worked with. When I mentioned earlier that we had canvassed most of, you know, Powashie County, that was one of the areas we hadn't got to yet.
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There was a car seat that was found?
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So we were essentially wanting to canvass that area too for information.
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Yerby Farms was in operation the entire time that the investigation was ongoing, is that correct? That's correct. Until you identified Christian Bahena-Rivera, had you made any effort to canvass Yerby Farms or its workers?
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Yes, it was in the back seat of the car.
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We hadn't been out there. I think we had maybe stopped there just looking for cameras, but we had not done an official canvass yet.
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And you had learned that the defendant... worked at Yarrabee Farms. That's correct. And that's why you went there. That's correct. So describe for the jury what happened on Monday, August 20th, when you went to Yarrabee Farms.
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And there were other items associated with the child, is that right? Possibly. Now, you noted in your report that there was a latex glove described as a gray glove from the trunk interior of the Black Malibu. Is that right? Yes. I'm going to publish State's Exhibit 43. It's already in evidence. That's the exhibit showing the Malibu trunk. Is that correct? Yes. I don't see a gray glove there.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
It was just kind of like every other time we would go out on campus. We got a group of investigators together. We made contact at the farm, and then we tried to split people up so we could talk to them individually.
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And just in general, why would you have talked to all the workers at Yerby Farms?
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If everybody remembers back in 2018, the political environment was pretty hostile towards our immigrant communities. And we were concerned that any contact that our immigrants would have with the police or anybody from the government would cause them fear or maybe cause them to flee or not cooperate.
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You did measure it with the wheel, is that right?
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So we were trying to take every effort possible to make them feel comfortable with us, but we also wanted to be sure we could identify them.
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All right, and your efforts were to gain information, correct? Yeah, that was our number one priority. And it was a lead concerning the video and contact with the defendant that led you to Yarrabee Farms where he worked? Correct. Ultimately, was the defendant requested to come to the sheriff's office for an interview? Yes, he was. And did you contact an officer from Iowa City to do that interview?
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Yes, Pamela Romero. from the Iowa City Police Department came to interview Christian Rivera. The interview then took place at the sheriff's office? Yes, it did. We've already been over that, so I'm not going to ask you to recount it, but were you present for much of that interview? Were you present in the building? Yes, I was.
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After the interview at the sheriff's office was concluded, did you go to a certain location in... Poweshiek County on the early morning hours of August 21st, 2018. Yes, we did. And do you remember the address of that location? It's 2478 460th Avenue. And at that location or near that address, what was found? The body of Molly Tibbetts.
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Whenever you were present on the field side, or at the field, I should say, the cornfield, was the defendant also present? Yes, he was. Was he located in a vehicle? Yes. During the course of the investigation, were officers able to locate the Fitbit or the phone known to be worn by Molly Tibbetts?
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No, we never found those.
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Did you search for them? Yes. Did you search the area around where her body was located? Yes. No success? No. Did you search other areas in an attempt to find the Fitbit or the phone? Yes. Describe generally what other areas you would have searched to try to find those two items.
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You would start where a body was located and then move all around that area. We'd spent quite a bit of time along 385th. The FBI has a device dog that we were able to use that actually sniffs out electronic devices. And then the ditch on, I think it's 200th Street that goes south towards 460th Avenue.
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And utilizing those resources, were you able to locate either of those two electronic items? No, we never found those. Was information that was located in other places relating to the phone and the Fitbit, was that provided to FBI agent Kevin Horan in an effort to pinpoint their location? Yes, it was.
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Whenever you arrived at the location where Molly Tibbetts was located, did you go out to where, specifically where her body was located? Yes. Describe for the jury what you saw whenever you arrived.
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Yes.
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All I could see was her fluorescent running shoes because the rest of her body was concealed under corn leaves, corn stalks.
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What your observations had been before Amy Johnson arrived, or John O'Berry would have arrived from the crime scene team? Yes. Were you or other agents able to locate any weapon that was used to inflict the injuries on Molly Tibbetts? No, we weren't. Did you learn that there were sharp force injuries that caused her death? Yes. So what type of weapon would you have been looking for?
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A knife, something that would create sharp force, like a bladed weapon. To your knowledge was any firearm ever associated with the death of Molly Tibbetts?
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No.
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And to your knowledge, were you able to locate a knife or a weapon that would cause sharp force injuries that was associated with the injuries of Molly Tibbetts?
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No, we never found the knife.
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Could you explain that, ma'am? Sure. It's located behind the football. Were there any pictures documenting where that gray glove was found? Yes. Okay, thank you. Ma'am, in front of you, is there another picture that is marked as Defendant's Exhibit Z? Yes, I do. This is another photograph of the trunk, is that right? Yes, it is.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you look? All over the place. What other types of places would you have searched in an effort to try to find the item, like a knife, that would have caused the death of Molly Tibbetts?
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Well, Christian Rivera also had two vehicles, so we would have looked there. and then at or near her, Molly Tibbetts' body.
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Did you stay in touch with Officer Pamela Romero concerning admissions or statements that the defendant was making concerning the death of Molly Tibbetts? Yes. And did you also stay in touch with and were you aware of physical evidence, specifically blood, that was found on or in the trunk of the Chevy Malibu that was driven by the defendant, Christian Bahena-Rivera? Yes.
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From where you stood at this location, could you see vehicles on the road? No. Could you see any persons on the road? No. Estates Exhibit 87 is what?
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That's all the questions I have at this time.
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Thank you, Mr. Brown. Defense may cross-examine.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Brooklyn, Iowa, between July 23 when you get there and August 20th, let's use that date, it was kind of a media frenzy, wasn't it?
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We didn't pay a lot of attention to the media, but it was, I guess. There was a lot of media attention.
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Okay. National media was there, correct? Yeah. A lot of local media there? Yes. And there was a reward put out for the solving of... Miss Tibbetts' disappearance, wasn't there? Yes. And it was exponential, like $400,000 if memory serves me, right? I think that sounds correct, yes. Is that the largest reward that you've ever been involved with in an investigation? Yes, by far, yes.
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So this was a case with a lot of attention, would you agree with me? Yeah. The whole town was circling the wagons trying to find Molly, right? Yes. People coming from all over trying to help out. Yes. This case was in the spotlight, right? Yep. Mr. Brown just asked you about the attempts to find the murder weapon. You recall that question? Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you ever go back to 622 West Des Moines Street and look for a weapon there? We would have had no reason to. Okay. Now, was it your decision to have Sheriff Tom Kriegel go on television on July 25 and publicly clear Dalton Jack?
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The... Media decisions were not part of my decision-making. But you're aware that Sheriff Kriegel publicly declared Dalton Jack on July 25? I am aware of that, yes. Who made that decision? I would always be aware when a press conference or something would take place. I guess I can't honestly remember who made that decision.
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Okay, well, you're the case agent, and you're in charge at that point, right? Right. And... A decision like that would have to go through you, would it not?
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Media decisions were way out of my decision-making process. Well, who else would have the authority to make that decision besides you? Well, there was a lot of supervisors there. So you not only had the sheriff of Poweshie County, you had several DCI supervisors. The FBI had supervisors almost there.
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Now, you understand the very next day on July 26th, You had Matt George approach Dalton Jack again and ask for another interview, right?
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Yes, I remember that, yes.
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And then Dalton Jack gave another interview on the 27th, you're aware of that? Right. And in that interview, it was learned that he wasn't completely forthright in the previous interviews, right? Yes.
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I don't object to the characterization that he's not forthright. I think that's speculation on behalf of this witness.
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Objections overruled.
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Go ahead and answer. Yes. And that was information concerning an affair he had had on Molly Tibbetts. Yes, that's true. And you reviewed the reports of Agent George from that interview, right? Yes. And to your recollection, why was Dalton Jack not coming forth with that information initially? Yes. Any reasons that Dalton Jack may have had as a speculation? Sustained.
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And that was another photo that you took on August 20, 2018, is that right? Correct. I'd offer Defendant's Exhibit Z.
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Did Dalton Jack give any reasons? I don't recall exactly. Do you recall reviewing Agent George's report and Dalton Jack saying that he didn't think it was relevant? If it's in Matt George's report, it would be correct. You talked about Molly Tibbitt's text messages. So you went through her text messages, right? The investigative team did, yes.
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Okay, and what about them led you to believe she was extremely low risk? She just, like she didn't use profanity or anything on there. There was no, it's very benign sort of text messages. She always appeared to be like trying to help her friends out. Often we will find on text messages, from our victims just like talks of drug use or things like that.
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We just didn't really find anything from Molly that raised red flags. She seemed very kind, right?
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Yes, she did. And very loving to everyone around her, right? Yes, she did. And that coincided with the interviews agents were doing trying to learn about Molly, right? Right. Even to people she didn't know, she was very kind. Yes. In the materials I've been given, I don't think I've found anyone who spoke an ill word of Molly Tibbetts. Right. I mean, she seemed to be a genuinely nice person. Yes.
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Any objection? No objection.
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And if she didn't know you but thought you needed a hand... she would offer that hand, right? Yeah, I would believe that to be true. I mean, she is truly an innocent victim, right?
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Right.
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We can agree on that. Yes. And she had friends that cut across all socioeconomic spectrums. She liked the poor kids and she liked the rich kids, right? She did. She liked the boys and she liked the girls, right? Right. She liked the white kids and the non-white kids, right? Right. I mean, she just truly gave everybody a fair shot, right? Yes. So, again, she's truly an innocent victim here. Right.
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This is another photo of the back of the trunk, is that correct? Yes. And can you point out to the jury where that glove is? You can't see it in this photo because it's obscured by the seatbelt. So you're saying that it's somewhere there but that it's covered, is that right?
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Going back to the interview that Dalton Jack gave on July 27th, you've collected a report on that from Agent George, right?
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Yes.
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And you've reviewed that, right? Yes. And that report is all part and parcel of this investigation, at least as of July 27th, right? Yes. Do you recall reading in that report that, that the affair that Dalton Jack had with Jordan Lamb had become sexual. Sustained. And because information in that report, what was the next step you took regarding Dalton Jack's affair with Jordan Lamb?
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You know, I don't know. Maybe... Again, I could only guess that maybe Jordan Lamp was interviewed, but I don't remember exactly.
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Dalton Jack, in his interview with Matt George, indicated that if Molly knew it had become sexual, she would have broken up with him, right?
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Dalton Jack calls for speculation here. Overruled. I think Molly knew about Jordan. And I think she had forgiven him. So I don't know why Dalton Jack would have said that in that interview. Okay. And where did you get that information? I think from several people. I think her family even knew about it. But I can't say exactly.
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I just, my recollection is that that was no surprise to Molly that that happened and she had forgiven him over it.
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In the course of your investigation, did you learn that the Jordan Lamb affair had happened more than once? I think you're right on that, yes. Okay.
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And she had forgiven him once and then it happened again? I don't know about that. It was my perception that she knew about the entirety of it and had forgiven him.
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Okay, so let's go back to the theory that Mr. Bahena You developed the sheet that Molly was killed by Mr. Bahena, okay? Now, is it your assertion that Molly was killed on 385th Street? I don't know exactly where she was killed. But it's your assertion that she was abducted on 385th Street? Yes. Would you agree with me, given your experience, that this was a violent death for Molly Tibbetts?
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There's another photo that I took that shows where the glove is, I'm sorry.
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Yes, it was. Somebody stabbed her multiple times, correct? That's correct, yes. Would you agree with me that she was stabbed with a significant amount of force? That would be a better question for the pathologist. You understand that the weapon that was used to kill Molly Tibbetts essentially at least pierced her skull, right? Yes, it did.
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In your training and your education and your experience, that would take a significant amount of force, wouldn't you agree? Yes. Yes, yes.
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So whoever did this didn't do it with a butter knife, right? Again, the pathologist could answer that better. I don't know if they, I can't remember if they had an opinion on what type of knife it would be.
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Ma'am, are you often called to investigate or to process crime scenes and possible missing persons case? Yes. And so if someone's missing, you may be asked to look at their home or a suspect's home to check for evidence. Is that right?
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Okay. In your experience with violent crimes, you've seen violent crimes like this before, I assume? Yes. Would it fit? The experience that you have, that whoever committed this crime did so out of a rage? I don't actually object to that. That does cause a call for speculation. Sustained. Do you have training and experience in that area? In the area of what?
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Interpreting wound patterns, causes of death, and the behavior behind it?
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I would say, yeah, based on experience more so than anything. Okay.
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And are you comfortable giving an opinion based upon your experience in law enforcement as to the person who stabbed Molly Tibbetts, what their motivation may have been?
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I'm not objecting to any speculation by this witness or really any other concerning what a person's actual motivation may have been.
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At this time, I want to overrule it in the sense that the question posed asks for a yes or no answer right now. So the witness can answer that, and we'll go from there.
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And can you repeat the question then? Can you read it back, please?
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And are you comfortable giving a opinion based on your experience in law enforcement as to the person who stabbed Molly Tibbetts, what their motivation may have been?
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I would say there's, whenever we have a violent crime, especially one like this, I think you could give several opinions as to why someone Someone acted the way they did.
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And given your experience in violent crimes, you're comfortable giving us those opinions?
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I mean, I could speculate on a couple different reasons why people act the way they do. Could anger be one of those? It could be.
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You... talked about going through Molly's phone records. Some of those phone records included conversations with Dalton Jack, right? Correct. Those are part of the case file. Yes. And you looked at those closely in the course of your investigation, right? Yes, they were analyzed very close, yes. There were a lot of conversations between her and Dalton Jack, right? Yes.
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A lot of conversations where Dalton Jack admits to having anger problems, aren't there?
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So, if someone objects, calls for hearsay?
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Overruled. As a case agent, we assign people to certain tasks. So while I would have a general overall knowledge of the case, I wasn't the one that would have went through those phone records specifically. You just told me they were looked at very closely. Right.
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Would you agree with me that if Dalton Jack had admitted to having anger problems, that would be something that you as case agent would want to know?
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Well, I did know that, but if it's in the Celebrite dump, then that would be true.
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Okay, my question was, as case agent, you would want to know if this man who's closest to Molly had anger problems. Yes, of course.
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And why would you want to know that? Again, it goes back to victimology. It would go back to people closest to Molly and who she is associating herself.
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And in your training and experience, the people who commit crimes like this are typically those closest to your victim, right? A high percentage of the time a victim knows their attacker. And again, do you have any evidence that Molly Tibbetts knew Christian Bahena? We had no evidence that they knew each other, no. Dalton Jack and these text messages?
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Yes.
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Have you ever heard of the process of working inside out? We typically work outside in. Okay. And what I mean is in an investigation that you look at the people closest to a missing person or a victim and then work your way out from that. Okay. I'm not an investigator. Okay. So you've never heard of that process before?
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that were reviewed referred to times where he went psychotic, didn't he?
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Again, I'm gonna expand this to relevance in the time frame with regard to any of these comments that he's examining Agent Valletta about.
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Sustained. What about relationship problems between Dalton Jack and Those would be very relevant in your investigation, correct? That's correct. And if Molly Tibbetts were talking about breaking up with Dalton Jack within a month before the disappearance, that would be relevant to you, right?
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Yes, and I also thought that they were planning on getting engaged maybe that next weekend or the weekend after.
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But the question I had is if Molly Tibbetts was talking about severing the relationship, A month before she disappeared, that would be something you would want to explore in detail, correct?
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And I did say yes, yeah, previously. And why is that? Again, it's at the early stages of the investigation, that's something, relationship issues is something that's very relevant to the case. And...
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As soon as three days before Molly Tibbetts went and disappeared, there were text messages, again, talking about Dalton Jack and Molly Tibbetts having relationship issues. Do you recall seeing those?
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Again, if it's in the text messages, that would be true. And that's relevant to your investigation?
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It would have been at the time, yes. Okay. But you ruled out Dalton Jack because he was in Dubuque? He was in Dubuque, yes. And you say that because his boss told you he was in Dubuque? His boss and his roommate, yes. Okay. Now, his roommate is a young man named Brandon Gordy, right? Yes. Now, Brandon Gordy...
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Told you he was in the room with Dalton Jack that night? I don't know if that's specific, what he says, but he did say Dalton was in the room that night.
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Because have you also reviewed the interviews with Dalton in law enforcement where Dalton said Brandon Gordy was out of the room until like 5 in the morning smoking pot? I do remember Brandon Gordy had left for a while to do that, yes. Okay, so you're relying on Brandon Gordy's vouching for
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Dalton Jack, right? No, we collected all different kinds of information that showed Dalton Jack was in Dubuque.
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Well, Agent George asked him for receipts and he couldn't produce receipts, could he? Well, he didn't have receipts, so. Okay, so he was asked for receipts and couldn't produce them is the question. And I said no. Okay. Dalton Jack talked about being outside drinking beer and playing bag games with his buddies at the hotel, right?
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I was told he said that during his testimony now, but I think he told us back then that he was in his room. Okay. His testimony here at trial is different than what he told officers? I didn't see his testimony, only from what I've heard. I think, again, I can only speculate as to why he was mixed up on what he was doing. Okay.
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But if he testified that way, like you just talked about, If he was outside the room playing bags and drinking beer, that's different than your understanding of what he told law enforcement. It was my understanding that he was in his room that night. Okay. Who got the surveillance video from the hotel? I don't think the hotel had surveillance video. Was the hotel asked?
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I think, yes. Okay. Was there ever a report created on that? If there was, it would be in my case file.
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Okay. Bank records of Dalton Jack were retrieved? Yes. And nothing from those bank records showed him in Dubuque on July 18th, did it? That's not true at all. Okay. Mr. Brown talked to you about Wayne Chaney. Wayne Chaney came to your attention partially because someone called and gave a tip, right? Yes. And that tip was that he was known to stalk women, right?
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No.
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Yes, and I think the sheriff's office also knew that already. So somebody who was... known to have a violent tendency toward women was someone that the sheriff's office would bring to your attention and someone you'd want to know about. Right. And he was also within that southeast quadrant of the county where you were really focusing your investigation. Yes.
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One of the things that your office does is you process buccal swabs, is that right?
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Did you ever receive a tip regarding Ron Pexa? Yes, we did.
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And who gave you that tip? I believe it was his ex-wife. Okay, and when was that given? It's relatively later in the investigation. I don't recall the exact date. Okay, and did you go talk to Ron Pexa? Yes, we did. Who's we? I seem to remember I was out there. I don't remember. I think there was two or three of us that were there that day, though. Okay, now Mr. Pex is in law enforcement, right?
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Yes, he's a reserve deputy, I think, in Tama County. Okay, and he's a reserve deputy to this day, right? I don't know. You might be right. He might still be there, yes. Did you... record your interview with Mr. Pexa? No. Why not? Because again, when we, it was not uncommon for this case for us to make contact with someone before we did the deep dive and full interview with them.
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The tip was unusual and Again, I think at that time our resources were starting to dwindle a little. So, just like with everybody else we did, we would try to figure out who they were, where they were at, and then using all our resources to do a deep dive into that type of person.
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Yes, the DNA section processes buccal swabs. And what is a buccal swab, ma'am? A buccal swab is a known DNA sample taken from someone by using clean swabs on the inside of the cheek area.
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Well, your files indicate that you first got a tip about Ron Pexa with a call to the sheriff's office on July 22. And that was before you got there, right? No, you got there on the 20th, didn't you? I did get there on the 20th, yes.
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And at 6.59 p.m., an anonymous caller said, although the caller gave her phone number, a male by the name of Ron Pexa from Guernsey who has been founded to have sexual acts with children. This person was concerned about him being in the area. Judge, this anonymous caller is hearsay. Yes. Sustained.
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Did you ever receive a call on July 22 regarding Ron Pexa? I don't recall a day, but I know Ron Pexa's name, and I know that we'd been out to his house. Well, do you recall how many times you got tips on Ron Pexa? Okay, so, no, I don't. But I know when we got leads like that, eventually they were assigned and run out.
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Okay. If you got a lead on 7-22-18, would you have assigned someone to that lead?
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Yes, I mean, well, it was assigned to lead at some point, I would assume, yes.
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Agent Villada, I put in front of you a document for the purposes of refreshing your recollection. If you look at page two of that document and read it to yourself.
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Okay.
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Having done so, is your recollection refreshed? Yes. Now, on July 22, 2018, did you... Your law enforcement received a tip about Ron Pexa? Yes.
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Now, tell me what was done in relation to that tip. Like I said, at some point we had made it out to his residence to talk to him. Again, any time we had a lead and with all the resources that we had, I can confidently say Ron Pexa's name was talked about quite a bit after that tip came in.
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This was around the same time you were interviewing Wayne Chaney, right? Yes. You had all the resources of the FBI, right? Right. And I think your word was that their resources were basically unlimited, right? Yes. We have no report of an interview with Ron Pexa, right? I don't know if we ever did a formal interview, no. You probably would not. Okay. Did you also receive a...
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Is there a Canvas report concerning Ron Pexa following a Canvas on August 1, 2018? If there's a Canvas report regarding Ron Pexa, then that would be yes. Yes. If I showed you that Canvas report, would it refresh your recollection? Okay. That's an activity log that was kept in your case file, right? Yes. And that activity log refreshes your recollection, right? Yes.
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So with reference to my client in this investigation, a buccal swab would be presumably taken from him. Is that right?
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And that activity log indicates that the residents at 610 West Brooklyn, West Street in Brooklyn, gave information about Ron Pexa, right? That's correct, yes. And they indicated that Ron Pexa had been a person who had harmed children and women in the past? Yes, that's how this reads, yes. Okay. This tip they received on August 1, 2018, also indicated that Ron Pex's home had a hidden room, right?
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Yes. I'm going to object to this.
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Overruled. Go ahead. Yes, the report here says there's a hidden room. That room concealed edged weapons, right?
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Judge, again, object to that.
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Yes, that's what it says. And that Mr. Pexa had threatened women, specifically his ex-wife, with death and burial, right?
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Objection to hearsay and relevance.
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Sustained on that hearsay. Remind the jury how far from Ron Pexa's house Molly Tibbetts' body was found. I think it's the adjacent property. The fence line to Ron Pexa's property was within 100 yards from where Molly Tibbetts was found? It's probably close, yes. And Ron Pexa's house, quarter mile maybe? From where her body was found?
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I don't know that they took a buccal swab from him.
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Yeah, that would be close, yeah.
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What did Ron Pexa have to say after you discovered Molly Tibbetts' body?
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Judge, I'm going to object to calls for hearsay.
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Sustained. You didn't talk to Ron Pexa after Molly Tibbetts' body was found, did you? We didn't need to. You didn't find it a bit ironic that this man who you have two tips on, the body was found a quarter mile from his house? Objection. Argumented. Overruled. I would say Christian Rivera cleared Ron Pexa.
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This is the striped fabric that we feel was her underpants, a pair of underpants in the cornfield.
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And in reference, the best practices would be to have a buccal swab from anybody that's involved in the case. Is that right? It depends on what kind of evidence you're looking at. And the comparison for that would be specifically for DNA evidence, is that correct? Yes, DNA. When you are looking for fingerprint evidence, what is your procedures?
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Question was, you didn't find it a bit ironic that this man you'd received at least two tips on, the body was found a quarter mile from his house? No, not at all. Did you also receive a tip from a canvas on... August 3, 2018, regarding Ron Pexa? Yes. And I've showed you an activity log dated 8-3-2018. Would that refresh your recollection? I think that's what I'm looking at right now.
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Is it refreshing your recollection? Yes. Now, in that activity log and in that tip, again, Ron Pexa is said to have a torture room in his home, right?
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I'm going to object. It's not relevant. This is all speculation provided by somebody else that provided information to the investigation. Overruled.
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This report says he has a torture room in his basement.
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And they gave you the address of 2410460th? Yes. So twice you have these allegations on Mr. Pexa. Is that when you decided to follow up on it?
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Again, this was a very large investigation. My exact thinking or any of the other investigators' exact thinking would be hard for me to recall. But we did go out to Ron Peck's house. I know we walked through there. We did not find a torture room or anything like that. But you didn't create a report on it? No, we did not create a report on that.
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Didn't record the interview on it? No. Is he the only law enforcement officer you interviewed in this case? I'm not sure. Possibly, yes. You mean there could be other ones you're forgetting?
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We interviewed hundreds of people. If someone was a reserve or something like that, that's possible, yes.
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Are there other people you interviewed you didn't create a report on? No.
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Just Ron Pexa? We didn't necessarily do the full interview. We just walked through his house. It was almost like a canvas. Did you tell Ron Pexa you had these allegations against him? If my memory serves right, I think he almost guessed as to why we were there.
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Now, Mr. Brown asked you about Jackson Ikehorn. Remember that? Yes. What was the... that put Jackson Icorn on your radar?
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I'm not sure how it happened. I think it was through a Google fence warrant that maybe put his phone in that area.
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Google did a thing called a geofence, right? Right. And what Google can do is they can set up kind of a net over an area and pick up anybody's phone who's on Google or any of Google's like Gmail or Google Docs, stuff like that, right?
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That sounds great.
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So anybody who's using Google on their phone Under this dome or under this net that they set up, they can pinpoint that person, right? Yeah, it's like a cell phone ping or something, yeah. And Jackson Icorn's phone was determined to be in the cemetery near 385th Street around the time Maui Tibbets would have been jogging. That's correct, yes. So that made him of interest, right? Yes. Okay.
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Did Jackson Icorn have any connection to Dalton Jack?
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We always kind of assumed that younger people would all know each other. I can't remember if they were actually friends or even knew of each other.
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He was interviewed, right?
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Yes, he was.
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And you reviewed the reports for that interview?
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Yes.
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I'm trying to recall. Do you recall who did that interview? Probably would guess Matt George did that. Okay. Now, Jackson Icorn was about 17 at the time, I think. Yes, he was. And when he was interviewed, he agreed that he was in the cemetery. Do you recall that? Yes. And he gave some excuse or explanation, I should say, that he was there helping a friend mow the cemetery for a bit. Yes.
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He identified that friend. Do you recall the friend's name? No. I think the friend might be Darian Davis. Yes, that sounds right. But then when he was, he cut off the interview. He stopped the interview, right? Right. But he was interviewed again about a week later.
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It depends on what kind of evidence we're looking at. We could either search using like a black powder and a feather brush, or we could use magnetic powder and a magnetic applicator, or we could use a super glue fuming to try to enhance the latent prints. It depends on the situation.
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Yes.
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And then his story changed. Yes. He recalled then he was just kind of driving through the cemetery hanging out. I thought he said he was like smoking marijuana or something, but maybe the car thing is correct, yeah. Okay. When the canvases were being done down on 460th, who were the agents that were doing the canvases, do you recall? No.
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Our canvas teams were different daily. It always depended on who we had. Did you review the records of the canvas on 460th? Someone in the investigative team did. I can't say that I reviewed all the canvas sheets. Who is Curtis Laver? Curtis Laver, he had friends that had a pool party, and he was there and maybe met Molly at that pool party, something like that. How about Timothy, is it Tomatic?
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Tomatic, yes, Tomatic. Just had done some unusual things around the time of Molly's disappearance that we needed to follow up on.
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And then came a lead to a guy named Michael Scott. You recall that? Yes, I do. He was the guy who was passing through town whose car broke down, right? His car broke down in Brooklyn, yes. And you received some tips that this car may have been suspicious, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't know if it was a tip or one of our agents developed that. I remember the agent coming to me talking about that car.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And they found a brown hair in that car? Yes, he did, yes. The circumstances were he came to Brooklyn, his car broke down, left his car there and bought a new one and kept on traveling, right? Yes, he did, yes. Which seemed kind of bizarre. It was very unusual. And then the DCI went out and got a GPS warrant to put a GPS on Mr. Scott's car? Right, yes. Is that how you excluded him? No.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How did you exclude Mr. Scott? He actually made it out to, I think, Omaha, if we're talking about the same person. I guess you're asking how we excluded people. There was really only a couple that we actually excluded. We revisited a lot of these people several times. Just not Dalton Jack? We did revisit Dalton Jack.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
How about the... idea that Pawasheek County has a number of sex offenders residing in it? Yes, they do. And you run all those people down? Yes. Everyone? The ones that we knew of, yes. So on the sex offender registry in Pawasheek County, you ran everyone down? I think so, yes. There was a gentleman named Brandon Roller that piqued your interest, right? Yes.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
What piqued your interest about Brandon Roller? I don't know specifically. When you said earlier the FBI had unlimited resources basically You were using whatever resources you could get your hands on to find Molly Tibbetts, right? Yes, we were. And Nick Potratz was kind of in control of that?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, he would be the best resource for what the FBI did, yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was he a part of the behavioral analyst unit? No. Was the Behavioral Analyst Unit consulted during this? Yes. And that was primarily a woman named Molly Amon?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Molly Amon used to be in that unit. She was no longer at that time. She was a supervisor out of Des Moines.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But the behavioral analyst unit was consulted? Yes. Did you yourself consult with them?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I talked to them. Again, we play to our strengths. So Molly Ammon used to be in that unit, so I think she had most of the contact. The meetings with this unit, these are the profilers, right? Yes. My only contact with them is usually to ask them how to ask questions on certain people.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Going back to Dalton Jack's home at 622 West Des Moines Street, Molly had a computer. Yes, she did. It was a MacBook. Yes. Made by Apple. Yes. And was that forensically examined? If you're referring to like dumped or made copies of, no. So you had information, did you not, that Molly was on her computer that night? She was... Abducted?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
From the Chevy Malibu, did you collect any fingerprint evidence?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We did, and we later found out I think it was her brother that knew her password.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay, so her brother went on her computer to try to find a trail, right? Right. Now, if you're working victimology inside out, you didn't want to get on a computer to find out... Who'd she been talking to or where she may have gone? I think we're on her computer almost every day. We had a password. But she didn't have it forensically looked at for deleted files or file carving, nothing like that?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't know what file carving is, but the FBI software guys were constantly on that analyzing stuff. So that wasn't necessary? Again, I don't know what file carving is or if it would be necessary or not. Did the...
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
FBI software engineers or whoever have it indicate that Molly had a pen pal. Yes, she did.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you figure out who the pen pal was? I think so. I don't remember the name, but I think at some point we figured it out, but I'm not sure.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
No, I collected evidence to be analyzed for fingerprints.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you interview the pen pal? I don't think so, no. Wasn't there some concern that Molly was sharing personal information with this pen pal? But the pen pal was unknown?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Jack calls for speculations irrelevant.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled, the witness may answer if he knows. I can't remember exactly. I think the pen pal was a younger person, like a younger kid or something, but... That's something you'd want to know, wouldn't you? Yes, I mean, we tried to figure out everybody in Molly's life.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Can you discuss what specific items were submitted for fingerprint analysis in this case?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was it you who directed... The criminalist to take swabs and look for signs of seminal fluid.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Where?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
On Molly's body, Molly's clothing.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The pathologist, Dr. Klein, would call me and ask kind of what they would want done. In a case like this, it kind of goes without saying that that would be something that they would look for.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So in a case like this, the theory always is that sexual assault is possible, right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right, yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So tell me, when in your mind did the investigation into Molly Tibbetts' murder basically end for you?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
When we were able to corroborate all the facts within Christian Rivera's confession.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Was it over when the DCI reports were submitted to you showing a mixture of three different individuals' DNA in the trunk?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Again, that's kind of a complicated answer. The purpose of looking for Molly Tibbetts' blood or DNA in the trunk was basically to corroborate the statement made by Christian Rivera that he takes her out of the trunk. So when he says, I took her out of the trunk and she was bleeding... And we find that blood in the trunk that made the statement that he gave us true.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The SpongeBob plastic bag, the window scraper, the wrapping paper, plastic bag containing the fish stringer, plastic container with fishing hooks, plastic bag with bobbers. plastic bag for egg sinkers, pink child's toy, volleyball, black plastic tube, Pepsi can, red and white coupon, and the plastic guard liner.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So the reason why we were looking for Molly Tibbetts' blood in the trunk was to show that Christian Rivera was telling us the truth.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But when we get additional facts like a mixture of three individuals' blood or a fingerprint that's not Christian Bahena's,
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We don't care to look? Christian Rivera didn't say anybody else helped him, so I don't know what... DNA would be much more, in my understanding, DNA is much more conclusive than a fingerprint. Did you ever interview Ulysses Felix? Again, that's a name I've heard, but I can't remember why I know that name.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You'd agree with me that no DNA from Christian Bahena was ever found on Molly Tibbetts' body? She was very decomposed. There was no DNA there. No DNA was ever found from under her fingernails? No, there was not. And you understand that there are defensive wounds found on her body, right? Yes. When you went to Europe, you ordered to have buckle swabs taken from all the employees, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. Why? I mean, there was a political talk of deporting millions of good, hardworking people just because of their immigration status. And we had this Huge fear that if we had contact with an immigrant community that they wouldn't trust us or that they would be afraid of us. They're a transit community. They're able to move from town to town and use false paperwork, that sort of thing.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Getting the buckle swaps is purely for identification purposes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Please tell me the description that was given about Christian generally.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Overruled. Go ahead.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I mean...
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I just don't remember hearing anything negative, I guess, Christian Rivera.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Let me posit it this way. If someone had told you something negative about Christian, you'd remember that? Right, yes. If someone told you he was violent, you'd remember that? Yes. If someone told you he was known to carry weapons, you'd remember that? Yes. You don't remember any of that? Nobody at the farm told us that that I can recall.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, you went to great steps to make sure these folks knew that you weren't going to get them in trouble with immigration, right? Yes. And that's because these folks take great steps to not be detected, right? I would agree with that, yes. Were you able to look at work records for Christian Bahena? Yes. And those work records showed you he was working 12 out of every 14 days, right?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And 87 is a photo of those underpants, correct?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And he was working about 12 hours a day, right? Yes. And he was working under a false name?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And it wasn't like he was working under a Hispanic name. He was working under an Anglo name, right? Yes, I think it was John Budd. Now I want to go to the interview. You made the decision to use Pamela Romero, right? Right. Were you aware she was an officer for two and a half years? Yes, I was. Were you aware she had 16 hours of interrogation training?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I was aware of the class that she went to.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Now, you yourself are a very experienced interviewer, right? Yes. And I think Nick Potratz was there as well for the FBI? Yes, he is. He's a very experienced interviewer, right? Right. Jeff Fink was there as well. Yes. And he's a sergeant with the Coralville Police Department, right? He's with Iowa City Police. Was he Pamela Romero's supervisor?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yeah, I think he was her field training officer or supervisor is one of the two. He was an experienced interviewer. Yes. Fluent in Spanish, right? He says he's proficient, which evidently is different than being fluent. Pamela Romero was fluent. Proficient is different. And she's fluent because she tells you she's fluent.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes. Yes. Jeff Fink tells you he's proficient because he's educated and teaches it, right? I don't know what he teaches. But out of all the people that were there, it was your decision to send in Pamela Romero to talk to Christian. The initial interview was Jeff Fink and Pamela Romero, yes. Why did you choose the...
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Now, I'd ask you to take a look at it. Actually, it's not Tara Scott's report. It's Anna Young's report. There were additional items that were submitted from the Malibu for print testing. Is that right? I'm not sure what you're referring to. There were additional items that were submitted from the Malibu for fingerprint testing. Is that correct? I'm not sure what you're referring to.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Officer with the least amount of training and interrogation techniques to do this.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That's how it evolved. So it evolved because Christian Rivera became engaged with her. He seemed to feel more comfortable with her. Obviously the experience is a concern of ours, but as long as he's engaged with her and talking to her, we were still able to manage the interview somewhat.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
But Nick Patras and I did not speak Spanish, so we, the reason why we took as many breaks as we did was for her to fill us in on what he was saying and for us to do follow-up questions.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So you were still the man behind the curtain controlling the interview from the law enforcement standpoint?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Within reason. I mean, without being able to speak Spanish, I could only give general questions. I definitely didn't understand or get all the information that was being told to her.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Were you aware at some point that Christian's family came to the sheriff's office? Yes, I think they did at some point. Were you aware at some point they requested to speak to him?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I don't remember that, no.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In your training and experience, is it good practice for an officer to act as both interviewer and then be a translator?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I've been doing this like 26 years, and I have yet to figure out a good way to do a foreign language interview. They're difficult. And the optimal, I think, would be to have a highly experienced investigator that speaks the language. But if I were to sit there, the flow is very choppy.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
You could have, though, had Ms. Romero in the room providing translation, and you could have done the interview.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Right, and we've done that before in different cases. It's just, it's very, I just don't like doing it that way.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
In watching the interview, you acknowledged there were times where Mr. Bahena fell asleep? I know he fell asleep. I don't know if I watched it. He was clearly tired. Yes, we were all tired. Were you ever able to determine if Mr. Bahena had prior law enforcement contact? I don't know that answer.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And what you're saying is that the items that you listed were submitted. Is that right? Yes. Okay. Ma'am, I'm showing you State's Exhibit 87. That's the photo that you believe is underwear. Is that right? Yes. With regards to the victim's body, it's pretty obvious that the running shoes that are placed right next to her would be associated with her. Is that right? I would assume so.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Did you collect the underpants, the headband, and the shorts as evidence?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And same with the socks that were on her body, is that right? Yes. Same with the pink sports bra that was on her body, is that correct? Correct. How far was States Exhibit 87 from this body? Approximately 34 feet. And it was found, I guess, kind of lodged in some dirt. Is that correct? I don't know if I would say lodged in. It was on the surface of the field. It was on the surface of the field.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And were those transported back to the crime lab for any further analysis if that would have been needed?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Is that right? Yes. Is there additional testing that was requested for DNA or seminal fluid? We don't specify what kind of testing.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We just ask for DNA.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
So what you would do is just ask for DNA testing on this particular item, is that correct? Yes. And then the analyst that is assigned to the case could test the item for DNA, is that right? Yes. That what would happen is they would develop a profile, is that correct? I'm not a DNA expert. I don't want to answer those questions beyond my expertise. They test for DNA, is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Correct.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
They'd also test for any sort of seminal fluid or any sort of sperm, is that correct? If it's requested of them. And that was requested in this case? I do not know. And the same thing with the shorts, is that correct? I do not know what was requested of them. So you just collected it, is that correct? Yes. No further questions, thank you.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, they were.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Any redirect?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I did forget to ask you one thing. Did you, anybody that was associated with you on the crime scene team, search a residence, a trailer that was believed to belong to Christian Bahena-Rivera?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
State's Exhibit 44. There is an area here on the trunk liner that appears to be a blood stain. Would you agree?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
I did.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. And when would you have searched the trailer?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
That was immediately after the scene at the cornfield.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And were there two knives that were collected at that scene that were submitted for further analysis?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
We collected one knife that day, and then I believe someone went back and did a further search and decided that they wanted the other one also submitted.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And these knives are folding knives?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
The one that I collected was a folding knife.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
And that would have been submitted to the lab for DNA analysis, is that right?
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I believe that was submitted for DNA and latent prints.
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Okay. And there was also a napkin that appeared to have blood on it. It was located at that trailer. Is that right?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, there was.
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Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
All right. Was that also seized?
Crimeatorium
Part 4: The State of Iowa vs Cristhian Bahena Rivera | The Murder of Mollie Tibbetts
Yes, I collected that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
He finally embraced it, huh?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Nice. So let's go back to these columns.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Okay. So there was a merchant's table. It hit the max number of columns, 1,024 at the time. Apparently, was it SQL Server has got more memory now? You can now add 4,096 columns. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Good for them. But because it's arbitrary, I mean, it's not arbitrary, the memory constraint is
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
force them to either stop making new columns or create a second table in which you can just shove some more columns. That was the choice that was decided. So now there's merchants and merchants too. And I assume every time you look up a merchant, you just got to pull both tables in, don't you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Which they did thousands of times, apparently. I just wonder, how can you possibly have that much information about a single entity in the world? Obviously, there's probably a lot of foreign key relationships, which is probably a lot of those columns. But I mean, how much can you know about a single merchant? Like more than 1,024 things matter.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
That's amazing. So you would download them on your brother's machine?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And you would rip them to a disc, to a CD, which is a one-time. But yeah, you pretty much have one shot at it, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And you sneaker net that sucker over to your machine.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And then are these just tire balls or how did you, do you remember?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well, it paid off.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So no, uh, secret service knocking down the door, I think is a worthwhile diversion. Don't you think Adam? Yeah. Is you got more to the story? What's the story? I mean, were you, I mean, you, you shall it, it deep.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
The plot thickens.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
They just dismissed the charges or how did it turn out?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So that story plus Miss Johns together got you this job. Because they're like, well, you must be good at what he does. Secret services after him.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Right. Then you find this code base and you realize how many hundreds of thousands and millions of dollars in labor have gone into this monstrosity.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
You didn't introduce the calendar, did you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So just filled it in more? Just one row per day and you just got to fill it out. And it's going to check against that row for the day. And if there's no row, then they can't log in.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Wow. So it had been, it was defunct basically.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So you did implement the correct behavior.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Who knows, man.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So we're joined today by Jimmy Miller, host of the Future of Coding podcast. Jimmy, you wrote the best, worst blog post.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And then did you decompile that and throw it in source control or like, how, how did you, how did you recover from the circumstances or did you just perpetuate it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well, you're not going to get a disagreement from me on that one, but maybe.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well, the Kaizen just means continuous improvement. You know, that's something that I'm sure you're into, right? Like, let's make things better all the time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Definitely resonated with me. In fact, I was like stopping to check the technologies that you listed because I literally thought maybe I had been on the same code base. And then I was like, I was all C sharp and VB. I was like, okay, mine was over here in Ruby land. But I was just like bringing up PTSD or something, you know, because... I've been in a code base like this.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Take that hourly wage out of your bonus. It costs a little extra. There's some intangible cost there on that bonus system.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
It definitely was like, when I saw that, I thought, Adam's going to love this. There's someone named Guilfoyle?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
But the code is like a legend. This is like a legend. Yeah. Total legend.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well, first of all, let's lay some groundwork here before I start to get into the details, because this was your first job coming out of college, is that right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
You know, he can't have a trail, no paper trails.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Okay, coming out of schooling.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And successful business that you went to work for, I assume?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
I was going to say, it's convenient sometimes to have a Gilfoyle. It's like a patsy. When something's wrong, you got someone to place the blame on because he's been prolific and he's done all these things and he's not around. So surely, gosh, Gilfoyle, what's wrong with you? But no, this was a third-party system.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
It sounds fun. I mean, I would like to work on this code base for maybe like a month and then move on. But I'd like to visit.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Yeah, it is a game. I mean, it's got to feel like that to a certain degree.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
I do, but I can't remember what it does. But I remember Rhino.js. It was involved in my cappuccino days. I think they were using it back with Objective-J.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Right. Yeah. And so lots of money being made, of course, credit card processing, a core piece of the world's infrastructure. If you're getting fractions of a penny of every transaction, I mean, there's just a lot of money coming in and money hides problems, right? Like the success just hides problems. And this thing had so many problems. It's just hard to fathom that it operated.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
I've had similar experiences, all I think at smaller scales, both in terms of company size and code base. My craziest one was I inherited, I did a rescue project for a boat shop somewhere in Georgia where they just needed, like basically it's a Ruby on Rails application that ran back office for a boat shop. A lot of merchants, a lot of sales, a lot of this kind of stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So similar tables and stuff, which is why it's probably resonating with me. And they had lost the original dev team. It was like a contract team came in, built this system and left. And then the IT guys who are also third party kind of took the system over because they were just nice guys who were helping out the company.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
That was a successful boat retail shop and relied upon this application to run their business now. And this was like really early Ruby on Rails days. I think it was like version 1.2 or something. And so there's a lot missing. And this team came in and wrote a lot of very clever code. Basically implemented a meta framework on top of it. And it was insanity. It took me a very long time to unravel.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And then they left, you know. And these people were left kind of high and dry. And so I was happy to help out. And I had the challenge, the game, like all these things. There was no... development system. It was like production and I copy the code down and try to get it running on my machine, you know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
So you're very much like doing crazy stuff, very small increments at a time, try not to break things. Um,
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And so that experience just resonates with everything you're saying, like the metaprogramming, specifically when you're talking about the thing that generates data structures from classes, and the database kind of is the programming system as well, if you want it to be, but no one's using it, like all that stuff was there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And it took me a very long time to be able to unravel it and understand it to the point where I was like, oh, it's kind of clever once you know how it works, but... That's a terrible thing. And so I think, and I didn't write up about that at all, I think there's tons of code bases like this out there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
It's like a time travel movie, which we talked about pre-show, so not a good callback. But yeah, that's one of the problems with meta-programming is it's just too meta sometimes and you can't unravel it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
It's very easy, especially when you come into a code base to, you know, Guilfoyle the thing in the sense of how I was talking about Guilfoyle earlier, where it's like some other who was dumb or incompetent or malicious did this. But as you actually start to like work with it and talk to people and learn about it, okay, there are politics and there are power struggles and stuff.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
There are things that happen because we're humans, but a lot of it is like, They made the best decision they had at the time with the information that they had. And I'm staring at it with completely different perspective years later. And like that stuff is fun to learn. And you actually realize like, yeah, that duct tape was really reasonable considering all the things they considered.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
I just don't know those things. And so I really do appreciate code from that perspective, especially legacy systems that are still powering businesses and bringing value to people is that we want to be smarter than everybody else, but. Those people just had different contexts lots of times that we just don't have.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And you start to learn those contexts and it gives you a new appreciation for the code that you're looking at. And that's cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
There's something about the naivety also of being fresh out of school or young to the industry. I think I told this story before, which I had a similar experience where I inherited some bad code, but I didn't have that perspective and just knowledge enough to realize it was bad code. I thought it was good code and I was a bad programmer. And I probably, I mean, I was.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Is Munch still there?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
But still, I gave it too much credit because I think this must be what good code looks like. It's so hard to understand, you know?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And it took me a couple of years of just maintaining that. And thankfully, I had autonomy. So I just did it by myself, like slowly changing a thing here or there without major interruption from bosses or anything. Then I realized what good code actually looks like and that what I had inherited was actually just clever but terrible. And oftentimes clever is terrible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Wow. That one hits hard, doesn't it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
And there's some clever stuff in this code base you're talking about.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Things that you're like, oh, that's kind of clever, but it's also so dumb.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Well said, Jimmy. Well said. Anything else? Any stone that we've left unturned? I'm sure there'd be dragons elsewhere, but anything you'd like to highlight before we call it a show?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Fair. Well, great best worst blog post. I love that you wrote that up. I think there's a reason it was popular. I think because it's a shared experience, well documented. And it's fun to laugh at these things. We laugh so we won't cry. Or maybe we laugh at you and not with you because I didn't have that particular problem.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
But I appreciate you coming on the show and talking to us about it and for giving us some big picture ideas and hope for the future of coding and also for the current state of coding and code itself and a love for it that I share at least, even when I despise it sometimes. I still love it. And I think that that's just the way it is sometimes. Adam? I agree. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Yeah, absolutely. I think we can drill in on specific aspects and just enjoy them as we do, but you can definitely paint with broad strokes in terms of, I already said it's a big visual basic C-sharp thing. The database was massive. It had lots of columns.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
You go ahead and fill out some of the big picture aspects of what this thing was, and then we can dive into some of the details because there's a lot of just enjoyable tomfoolery going on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
Was his name actually Munch? I mean, who names their kid Munch?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
The best, worst codebase (Interview)
That is hilarious. Some names just find you, you know, you just can't, you can't escape them. They just stick.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You know, I've had the pleasure of meeting several people behind the scenes at Speakeasy, and I'm very impressed with what they're doing to help teams to create idiomatic SDKs, enterprise-grade SDKs in nine languages, and it's just awesome. So, Sagar, walk me through the process of how Speakeasy helps teams to create enterprise-grade idiomatic SDKs at scale.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
It is open source though, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
There's a margin of haters, let's just say, towards Kafka. And it is open source. And I'm just curious, you know, you may be in that bucket of margin of haters because you've created WarpStream, right? So you're kind of not for, you're kind of against, at least from an economic standpoint and maybe a DX standpoint and many other standpoints. The point I'm getting to is why not just improve Kafka?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Good answer. I was expecting a version of that. I was not suggesting that you should just not start WarpStream and by all means just go contribute to Kafka and bail. But it's always good to get that perspective because Kafka's got history. It's 13-ish years old. It was developed inside of LinkedIn for different purposes. That's why I started off with the question, which was...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Their own infrastructure because LinkedIn designed this for a different purpose than everybody else today uses it. It's not it was not designed to be used in a cloud environment where there's a lot of egress fees and a lot of fees between moving data around. And so it was not really designed for its actual use case or the usage space that it's in.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And LinkedIn did not charge its users those transaction fees. I assume potentially because, and I don't know LinkedIn's infrastructure history, but I assume because they had far more control over their cloud or their own environment to not have to deal with those costs than maybe everyone else who's become a Kafka user has had to take on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So you and Richard, did you guys meet at Datadog? Is that where you guys connected or was he at Datadog? Tell us a little bit of the history of you two.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Gotcha. Yeah. And while you were there, you had put some sort of Datadog infrastructure on S3 or on object storage. Husky, I think. I'm going from memory now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah, I mean, that's why I ask about it, because it seems like it's a precursor to this very similar move with Kafka, right? Like, what if we took Kafka, ripped out the local storage aspect of it? Sounds easy enough. And built something, I mean, by ripped out, conceptually ripping out, right? You didn't fork Kafka and write this, right? You started over.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Right, so conceptually, rip it out, but actually rewrite something that's Kafka compatible in terms of features and API, I assume, and all that kind of stuff. But no local storage, object storage.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And your success with what happened to Datadog probably led the way for you to say, well, if we did that, it would be a lot cheaper, basically, and way easier to operate because, hello, Amazon Web Services, right? Like, it's their problem now.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Okay, friends, here are the top 10 launches from Supabase's launch week number 12. Read all the details about this launch at supabase.com slash launch week. Okay, here we go. Number 10, Snaplet is now open source. The company Snaplet is shutting down, but their source code is open.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
They're releasing three tools under the MIT license for copying data, seeding databases, and taking database snapshots. Number nine, you can use PG Replicate to copy data, full table copies, and CDC from Postgres to any other data system. Today it supports BigQuery, DuckDB, and MotherDuck with more syncs to be added in the future.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Number eight, Vect2PG, a new CLI utility for migrating data for vector databases to SuperBase or any Postgres instance with PG Vector. You can use it today with Pinecone and QDrant. More will be added in the future. Number seven, the official Subbase extension for VS Code and GitHub Copilot is here. And it's here to make your development with Subbase and VS Code even more delightful.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Number six, official Python support is here. As Supabase has grown, the AI and ML community have just blown up Supabase, and many of these folks are Pythonistas. So Python support expands. Number five, they released log drains so you can export logs generated by your Supabase products to external destinations like Datadog or custom endpoints.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Number four, authorization for real-time broadcast and presence is now public beta. You can now convert a real-time channel into an authorized channel using RLS policies in two steps. Number three, bring your own Auth0, Cognito, or Firebase.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
This is actually a few different announcements, support for third-party auth providers, phone-based multi-factor authentication, that's SMS and WhatsApp, and new auth hooks for SMS and email. Number two, build Postgres wrappers with Wasm. They released support for Wasm, WebAssembly, Foreign Data Wrapper. With this feature, anyone can create an FDW and share it with the Supabase community.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You can build Postgres interfaces to anything on the internet. And number one, Postgres.new. Yes, Postgres.new is an in-browser Postgres with an AI interface. With Postgres.new, you can instantly spin up an unlimited number of Postgres databases that run directly in your browser and soon deploy them to S3. Okay, one more thing. There is now an entire book written about Supabase.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
David Lorenz spent a year working on this book, and it's awesome. Level up your Supabase skills and support David and purchase the book. Links are in the show notes. That's it. Superbase launch week number 12 was massive. So much to cover. I hope you enjoyed it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Go to superbase.com slash launch week to get all the details on this launch or go to superbase.com slash changelogpod for one month of Superbase Pro for free. That's S-U-P-A-B-A-S-E dot com slash changelogpod. What are some lesser known things about object stores that you know that we don't know? Or maybe nobody knows besides you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
For us laymen, can you describe how the brokers work and contrast that again with these stateless agents? I understand that you can scale the agents horizontally because they are stateless versus a broker, which seems to have kind of a lock on some data. But what do Kafka brokers do exactly?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So you're reading metadata versus reading the real data, basically. And that's what makes it faster.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What's up, friends? Welcome back. This is The Change Law. We feature the hackers, the leaders, and those who are building data streaming platforms inspired by Kafka. Yes, today's conversation revolves around Kafka and data streaming. We're joined by Ryan Worrell, co-founder and CTO at WarpStream. Last year, they posted a blog titled Kafka is Dead, Long Live Kafka.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What percentage of the Kafka population does that cut out? Because it seems like many of them are highly real-time oriented.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Those reads and writes, can you restate those? Did you say writes are at most in P99 500 milliseconds and reads are one to two seconds in P99? Is that correct?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
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The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So latency aside, what are the other downsides of this approach?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Does it have any of the hosting flexibility? I suppose you're putting everything in object storage anyway, so there's probably people running their own object storage clusters, but that might be crazy. I don't know.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What about R2? Would you have even more savings, or would that not matter because nothing's going outbound from the virtual network there?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I was thinking about getting started, really, or just trying it out. I do like your curl demo. I did play with it. I had no idea what I was doing. But it was cool. The command is on your homepage. It's curl and a URL to an install script. I did not review that script prior to running it. I just trusted you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You're admitting that to everybody?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Well, you know, it was a VM on Proxmox, so I didn't care that I could just throw away. It wasn't my own machine. I was safe. That's a good layer. It did spin up, and then it gives you a URL you can go to to log in. And next thing you know, you're looking at a cluster. So I like that aspect about it. Whose idea was it to come up with that demo? I mean, it's very hacker. It's very developer.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
No pain whatsoever. If you've got a VM or you want to spin up a VM or you have Proxmox, then you can do it safely like I've done. Or you can spin up a droplet on DigitalOcean or pick your own if you've got a VPC, whatever. You could do it in a more safe manner and have some fun. What do you expect people to do with that? What are people saying about that? And whose idea was it to produce that demo?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
This is very hacker. I like it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
It said it had a problem and I had to click it, so yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So to get to the Playground version of it, is it like dash dash Playground? How do I get there?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah, I dig it. I kind of wish there was more documentation. If there is, then I would go find it or maybe a video or something like that because that's kind of cool. I like this demo because for those who just want to tinker without having to spin it up in the EC2 or just whatever, you know, go the extra mile.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I love that you can just sort of do this on your own, but I had no idea the playground version was there or the agent version was there to go a little further. And there's some room that you can make some content around that to give people more of a guidance. And you should do that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
All right, today we are joined by Ryan Worrell from WarpStream. Ryan, welcome to The Change Log.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And I guess while I'm on your homepage perusing, just under this demo that is so cool, there is a mention of plug and play. Part of your angst, I suppose, to get to where you're at was let's rethink what this might look like in a modern time, which is what you've done. But then also to be just swap out. So one thing it says is there's no need to rewrite your application to use a proprietary SDK.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You just literally change a URL. How did you get there in terms of the, it's fine to not want to contribute to Kafka and make your own way. And I'm totally cool with that. and WarpStream reinventing or rethinking this model.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But how do you get to this point where you're like, let's make this as frictionless as possible to focus on the DX of what it might actually be like to say, okay, well, if this is, like Jared said earlier, that subset of folks that maybe they're not doing credit card transactions and fraud detection where that needs to be literally real-time, where the latency cannot be absorbed.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Great to have you. Shout out to listener Vladimir for requesting this episode. Also, shout out to your co-founder, Richard, who unfortunately couldn't be here today, but hey, Richard. What's up, Richard? Yeah, but you're here, so let's talk to you and not to Vladimir and to Richard. That being said, Vladimir requested this episode. You too, listener, can request episodes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
In a scenario where it can be absorbed and it's a large transaction, population of Kafka users to say, listen, we're here and this is how easy it is to swap. How did you get to that design, that idea?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And do you think that, I know you're sort of youngish, but do you think that, I suppose, how are you winning? Are you winning the market? That's what I'm trying to get to is like, are you truly absorbing a lot of the Kafka user base? Is there a major demand for WarpStream? What's the state of product market fit and are you winning?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Head to changelog.fm slash request. Let us know what you would like to hear about on the pod, and we might just fulfill your every desire. Vlad wanted to hear about WarpStream, and so that's why Ryan is here. Just so happens that Adam and I both would also like to hear about WarpStream.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What about Greenfield? Is there anybody that's like, okay, we need to adopt Kafka or something like it, but what is out there before we go and write a lot of code or flesh out our infrastructure model or make any plans? What about those that are not migrating? What's the path, I suppose? What's the inbound of those folks? And what's the path to the DX?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Because one of the things you mentioned is that you solve a few problems. You solve cloud economics. You solve operational overhead. And one thing that you mentioned, at least in the article that was from last year, was a major problem with Kafka, which was developer user experience. And that's what I'm trying to get to there. Those were coming on green, brand new.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What is that user experience like? And what is the path like for them?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So I guess the obvious question to me at this point is Kafka is not dead. It is alive. It is open source. To my knowledge, I don't think it is. WarpStream is not open source. Was there a conversation about licensing? Was there a conversation about being a commercial open source company?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Just to follow in the footsteps of the predecessors that you at least from a conceptual standpoint copied and improved upon, right? You were led by here. You stood on the shoulder of giants. Where are you at with that? What have you thought about in terms of licensing and open source and what's your stance on open source as your core or not?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Here we are. Let's start with Kafka, though, because it sounds like WarpStream's story starts with Kafka's story. Okay. What is Kafka besides a author from the early 1900s? But the open source thing, what is that thing all about?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What's interesting about those re-licenses is that they all were commercially successful companies, even at the time of the re-license. They had arrived, and at a certain size and scale, it seems that the growth curve has to continue to go vertical to satisfy investors, to satisfy public demand in the case of Hashi.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But I'm sure, I actually don't know the state of Redis Labs or the commercial success or not of Redis, but many of them were large, successful commercial companies, bigger than most companies ever get before they actually went ahead and did that not cool rug pull.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Thank you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But I wonder if the pressures on them, because it's other people's money, similar in your situation, like you have a vent VC behind you. And I'm just curious about that decision from your guys' perspective. Because you're a small team, probably well-funded in terms of you guys are highly successful software people, so you're probably making good money.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Why not bootstrap and then not have any of that VC pressure that you currently have?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
That makes sense to some degree. I don't fully agree with all of your sentiment, although that's a very deep and lengthy conversation teetering on just not fitting this conversation necessarily.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But what I can appreciate, given that I don't fully agree with all of your reasons, the one reason I think that you've done well or I suppose the most positive thing is you've made it easy to get in and get out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So if for some reason warp stream is of great benefit, and let's just say a year down the road somebody does warp not stream, and it's commercially open source, and they eat your lunch because they decided to be open source first, and they can get into that just as easily as they can get out of you, then that's a whole different story. I'm not suggesting that's going to happen, but it's...
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Possible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
The exact implementation. They can literally copy everything you do and just – the world would be okay with that because they made it open source. That's a version or at least a subset of a conversation we had at length on this podcast a few weeks back with JJ, Joseph Jaxx. He was like, yeah, I'm totally cool with –
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Somebody, a founder going out there and literally copying X and saying this is now X as open source. He was totally cool with that. I'm not saying that makes sense completely to me too, but the world now believes that's an okay thing. And it's an okay thing because at the core it is meant to be an open source commons good.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I would be like, come on, man, don't do that. Well, someone's going to do it. I mean, as you guys have success now, whether or not they can actually pull it off is the question, right? But like there will be at some point as Washington continues to grow, uh, a Hacker News number one story. X is like WarpStream, only it's open source and self-hosted. And it'll get 500 to 1,000.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And maybe it gets adoption, maybe it doesn't. Maybe by then you guys are so far ahead it doesn't matter. There's tons of what-ifs, but it will happen from somewhere in the world if you're successful.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And that, of course, hit the top of hacker news and put WarpStream on the map. Today, we get the backstory on why Kafka is so widely used and who created it and for what purpose, and more importantly, the story of WarpStream.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Hey friends, I'm here with Brandon Fu, co-founder and CEO of Paragon. Paragon lets B2B SaaS companies ship native integrations to production in days with more than 130 pre-built connectors or configure own custom integrations. So Brandon, talk to me about the friction developers feel with integrations, SSO, dealing with rate limits, retries, auth, all the things. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Okay. Paragon is built for product management. It's built for engineering. It's built for everybody. Ship hundreds of native integrations into your SaaS application in days. Or build your own custom connector with any API. Learn more at useparagon.com slash changelog. Again, useparagon.com slash changelog. That's U-S-E-P-A-R-A-G-O-N dot com slash changelog.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And I'm also here with Dennis Pilarinos, founder and CEO of Unblocked. Check them out at getunblocked.com. It's for all the hows, whys, and WTFs. Unblocked helps developers to find the answers they need to get their jobs done. So Dennis, you know we speak to developers. Who is Unblocked best for? Who needs to use it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
The next step to get unblocked for you and your team is to go to getunblocked.com. Yourself, your team can now find the answers they need to get their jobs done and not have to bother anyone else on the team, take a meeting, or waste any time whatsoever. Again, getunblocked.com. That's G-E-T-U-N-B-L-O-C-K-E-D.com. And get unblocked.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Okay, so what are some use cases for this? Lots of, it sounds like, well-funded companies use it, larger companies. Yeah. And I think that some of that is because of the operational complexities and the love-hate relationship with it. But why are people grabbing this particular tool often?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So let's go back to bootstrapping then. It seems like the kind of thing you could bootstrap. I mean, it's just you and Richie coding it up on nights and weekends, you know, get it rocking and rolling, keep all that equity. No, no one to answer to. You're going to get customers pretty quick. Then you can start hiring based off of your customer. Like why that decision to raise?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
That makes a lot of sense.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Had you played this game before?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I think your reasons are sound. I don't disagree, and I will not argue. Good answer. I'll give it to you. I will not argue. I think, you know, we check wisdom. While we love open source, I don't think that you would have had – I can see how going the route of venture capital and not going, as you had said, some of the burden of open source in terms of distraction was your actual word –
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I can understand that. And that's your prerogative, right? Bobby Brown is dated in terms of an artist.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Nobody knows Bobby Brown anymore.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But it's my prerogative is still a true phrase. Ryan, do you know Bobby Brown?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I grew up on Bobby Brown, so I can't help but bring it up. It's my prerogative. Yeah, it's my prerogative. Yeah, great song. You know, so it's your prerogative and it's Richie slash Richard's great name, by the way, Silicon Valley. I mean, I had to bring it. He was called Richie and his name was Richard Hendricks, but he was called Richie by his attorney.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I don't disagree with the reasoning for your direction. I hope it works out for you. I think it, it seems like it's going to, but I do agree with what Jared said, which was, there is probably going to be, if you hit critical mass and enough scale, somebody who copies what you've done and simply just says, okay, literally copy. And now it's open source and they'll be okay with that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I don't think that you should operate in a state of fear of that and make choices because of it, because that's free market, man, that's going to happen, you know, but, uh, Good on you for being able to answer these hard questions. I think you did well on that front. I don't have any argument, really. That's all I'll say.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I also think that you are a particularly easy target for the hyperscalers to reclone and host and offer because of the nature of what you're doing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Ride your coattails. Are there other competitors out there? Are there other people that are putting Kafka on object storage?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Yeah, better way. Well, that does make sense then why you went venture capital so that you can go fast. And I think that from a visual standpoint and you've done well from a brand standpoint, I think your marketing site is pretty awesome. I mean, there's obviously always room for improvement, but it's pretty solid.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I do want to bring up the idea of pricing because I don't disagree there either that There's large corporations, enterprises, so to speak, Fortune 500s, that if you're not charging them $10,000, $20,000 a year, they're like, what's wrong with you? We can't use you. We literally need to give you a lot of money to trust you. And that's just the nature of the beast there.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But when you land on your page for pricing out the gate, the TCO, total cost of ownership, is at least the default numbers that are put there, is $2,295 per month. So you're not even scaring people away. I mean, like you're literally putting your fist in their face and saying like, it costs a lot, y'all. But that's the cheap version.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
These people are probably used to paying more than that, right, Ryan?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So if you needed five gigabit write throughput, which I imagine is quite high, but let's say that you do 14 day retention. So that's two weeks retention. Not that much. We're talking 97 grand per month going to WarpStream and $1.76 million a month using Kafka. These are numbers that blow my little mind.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
It was the highest. It was five gigabits.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And the question they asked themselves was this, what would Kafka look like if it was redesigned from the ground up today to run in modern cloud environments directly on top of object storage with no local disks to manage, but still had to support the existing Kafka protocol? Well, that's just the premise for today's conversation. A massive thank you to our friends and partners over at Fly.io.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Still 10X. Still looking pretty good. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I want to point out that these are just dollars, too. This is not developer friction or operational burden or enhanced developer experience, which are the hallmark of any conversation today with dev tools, right? Like, you could be a 13-year-old tool like Kafka and get away with... And I have no idea. So no skin in the game. I've never used Kafka personally.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So if there's some haters out there, those marginal haters I mentioned earlier, don't hate on me. But there may be some warts and blemishes and burdens within the Kafka ecosystem that just makes it just challenging to operate, to stand up. Obviously, there's costs. We've already talked about that literally at length.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But I think there's something to be said about a modern take given today's cloud infrastructure with some of the dev user experience attributes I've seen you already put in place. So cost is one thing, but then happy developers is retained developers, morale boosts, maybe freedom on weekends, less pager duty, less whatever from anybody who might be competing with pager duty. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
That's a good thing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I see on the cake. What's a good next step? I mean, I feel like we've really just gone through all of it, Jared. You got anything else? I think we have. We've covered it all, man. I think we've covered every ounce of Warpstream. Ryan, thank you for being patient with our questions and going through everything and filling in all the blanks, too. I think you did a great job with this conversation.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
I'm happy. I'm impressed. I think there's a lot of things I can see as quality in you as a person and also the thing that you're trying to do. I think you guys have led with some wisdom. I like a lot that you went out and talked to folks. rather than just shooting from the hip, so to speak, with your choices and letting it be opinion-based.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
You seem to have leaned into the wisdom of those who've come before you with your particular target market, which I think is key to your choices. And so I'm stoked that you were able to answer the questions we asked. So thank you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Very cool. Well, warpstream.com is where you can go. We'll obviously put links in the show notes. Ryan, thank you. It's been awesome. Thanks, man. Thanks. Okay, so WarpStream seems to be what Kafka would look like if it was redesigned from the ground up to run in modern cloud environments. They didn't opt into open source, and I think Ryan had a pretty solid argument for why not.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
But time will tell if an open source copycat comes along to sniff out their lunch and eat it. Until then, good for them for putting in the work to gain the conviction they have for their choices. and their position. Later this week, our game show Pound to Find is back on changelogging friends, and it was epic.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
This is the closest I've come to winning, and I was still pretty far off, and that's this Friday. Okay, big thanks to our sponsors this week. Speakeasy, love them. Newdomainspeakeasy.com. Also our friends over at Superbase celebrating launch week number 12. Superbase.com. And our friends over at Paragon, all the B2B SaaS integrations you want in a single platform, useparagon.com.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And also our friends over at Unblocked for all those whys, hows, and WTFs. Check them out, getunblocked.com. And of course, to our partners over at fly.io. That is the home of changelog.com. Check them out, fly.io. And to the Beatmaster in residence, Breakmaster Cylinder, bringing those beats. Okay, that's it. This show's done. We'll see you on Friday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
So Vladimir pointed us to a post which I think Adam and I, we had both already read this post because it was last year. Last summer, I believe. Kafka is dead. Long live Kafka. This was your big coming out party, it seems. A great way to introduce WarpStream. And in that post... You said that Kafka is one of the most polarizing technologies in the data space.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
And then whether it was you or Richard who wrote that, then you just moved on and kept going, assuming that we all just knew why or how or like agreed that that was just true. I assume it's true. It's probably polarizing, but why is it polarizing? My guess is because it's useful, but difficult to use. And so people love it and hate it, but maybe there's more to it than that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Is anyone building or using Kafka, open source Kafka, as you said, in a scenario where they're not on public cloud, where they're building out their own infrastructure, where it's probably maybe even more harder because you're literally managing the disks. You're not ordering the disks or SRAing the disks. You're literally managing the disks. Is that a scenario that happens or is it less likely?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
More than 3 million apps have launched on Fly, and we're one of them. Scalable full stack without the cortisol. No stress. Learn more at Fly.io. Okay, let's Kafka. What's up, friends? I'm here with a new friend of mine, Sagar Bachu, co-founder and CEO at Speakeasy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
Continue with the polarizing. What else is polarizing about Kafka?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
Reinventing Kafka on object storage (Interview)
What makes it so difficult to run? Is it the SSDs? I think that post also called it finicky. Is it poorly architected? Like, why is it finicky?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I do.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's a feature, though, not a bug. It is a feature, yeah. I've designed my life around it. I mean, we are homebodies. We are homeschoolers. I work from home. I have one laptop. I take it with me when I go somewhere. I got nothing to connect to back home. I mean, the Mac Mini has some old movies on it, but I'm not going to watch those. If I'm on the road, I'm going to watch whatever's on Netflix.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So young Jared would be all about Tailscale, but old Jared, I'm just like, I'm not a self-hoster. I still think it's cool tech. I remember the bad old days of Hamachi VPN, I think it was called, which was, I think, open source, but it was definitely free. is my closest analog to Tailscale, before Tailscale.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And it was cool because you could do a lot of the same stuff, but, and it was, it's pre-WireGuard even. I'm not sure how it worked. I know it was a VPN, but, you know, we had NASs in different people's houses, right? And we were syncing, we were like sharing backups with each other. Like I back up your stuff, you back up mine. I did all that stuff the hard way, you know, probably 15 years ago.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
No, I just have different interests. I like to talk about the stuff, I like to hear what people are up to, but I just don't have that hacker mindset with that kind of stuff, I just don't.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, I 100% understand that. And I understand it would be cool to have a Plex library with all the movies and all that kind of stuff that I own. But my choice when Disney does that, I just cancel Disney+. I'm like, peace out, guys. I don't need you. I'll live the simpler life.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And then I tell them, Bluey's no longer with us. Yeah. Bluey's no longer with us. So yeah, I mean, that's another trade-off, right? It's like, okay, now I've got to deal with that situation. Yeah. You can't do that to all your... to everything in your life, so you make choices.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Welcome to ChangeLog and Friends, a weekly talk show about ATO hallway vibes. Thanks to our partners at Fly.io, the home of ChangeLog.com. Launch your app in five minutes or less. Learn how at Fly.io. Okay, let's talk.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Is it a lifestyle that is worth living?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Is it sustainably so?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
No Googtober. Yeah. No Googtober?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I'm just now realizing that I've been without Google for a long time, but I've just been suffering with DuckDuckGo. And it's like, I should just replace that with Perplexity, and I won't be suffering it. I've just lived without. And I've learned how to use DuckDuckGo to the best of its abilities.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So non-self-hosted, what's their model? What's their business?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's time to take it back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Take it all back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
There you go. Good reference. I was trying to go for a Goonies reference, but it was probably too deep of a cut. Do it. I want to hear it. He's like, those dreams up there, those are other people's dreams. Down here, these are our dreams. And I'm taking them back. I'm taking them all back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Next up, we are joined by Isra Taha, a senior software engineer with over 12 years of experience. Isra is as legit as they come, yet she still struggles with self-confidence. Sound familiar? We kind of hounded her to get her on the mic. I even felt bad for a minute, but it all worked out in the end because she decided to do it and we had a great conversation. Here it is.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yes. Here we go.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Depends on how loud you're going to be. You're golden. You're golden.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So we asked you to come on the show yesterday morning.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Now it's today afternoon, but you made it. I did.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You're stepping outside your comfort zone.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Do you find that hard to do?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We kind of pushed you into this one, didn't we?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We gave her a nudge. We didn't require it of her. Constant, gentle pressure. We just wanted her to come on the show, so we're happy to have you. First time at All Things Open.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Impressions?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Lots of booths, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We're hallway trackers ourselves, aren't we, Adam? That's right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's where all the fun is. That's where we belong, you know? It is. That's where the people are.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We are taking you back to the all things open hallway track one more time to talk with some friends, new and old. First up, Alex Kretschmar, who you may remember from earlier this year when he was on the episode called Self-Hosted Media Server Goodness.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Coming to a... Hallway near you. Yeah. Don't go in there. There's no talks. The nice thing about that is you don't really even need a place to gather. You just need a hallway.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We don't need an auditorium. Would you have vendors and stuff, too? Would it be like this? Everything would be in the hallway.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, you would need a pretty big hallway.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What would be cool would be to put it in, like, an arena, but just in the hallway of the arena, the circular. Yeah. And so you would just walk in circles. You call it circles.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Well, that's not how they're designed. Oh, you want to cut through the middle.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Cool shade. This is what we do. Welcome to the podcast.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Or like an unconf, you know, like base camp style. Base camp? Bar camp. Food camp. No, not Food Camp. Bar Camp. Bar Camp. Bar Camp was a response to Food Camp. Do you know Food Camp?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay. So Food Camp stood for Friends of O'Reilly.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And that's Tim O'Reilly. Tim O'Reilly. The creator of the O'Reilly Empire. Yeah. Media empire. And he had a event that was, I think, on his property or somewhere near where he lives. It was very exclusive. Invite only. You had to be a friend of O'Reilly to go.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And it was a camp. Foo camp. I think they camped out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That part might be... gray area, but the rest is true at least. And cool for everybody who gets invited, but not cool for anybody who doesn't get invited, right? So bar camp was a response to foo camp because foo bar, right? And so bar camp became a unconference where anybody can come. You don't have to be a friend of O'Reilly. You can be anybody.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And because it was an unconference, there was no preplanned schedule.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So you show up on a Saturday morning, for instance, right? Everybody gets together and there's whiteboards or even just construction paper. And there's a schedule like here's slots. And you just show up a lot like lightning talks. You just show up and like sign up for a slot. And then you just have your... You're putting together the conference as it's going.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Open Spaces. So we went to that conference in Austin in January. Were you at that one?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We wanted to go to Wisconsin. We didn't quite make it. But you did a Spaces. What was that called? Birds of a Feather? Was it called Spaces? I don't know. There was tables.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yes, and I've heard you many times.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And you would sign up. The tables were lettered or numbered. And you would sign up what we're going to be talking about at this table. And Adam, you did Home Lab or something?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah. Happy to meet you. Yeah. Mutual fans.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You think that's how you got such big numbers, like more than four?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I guess you got to do what you got to do.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So that's cool. I like the idea of, I like improvisation. I like spontaneous things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And so I really have, I've gone to a lot of bar camps over the years.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It used to be a bar camp Omaha every year for a long time. And they were just fun because you never know what you're going to get.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Adam is showing her a picture.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Of what he put on the, that conference. Right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Let me see it. I'll describe it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It says, all caps in blue across the top, Homelab, exclamation mark. That's it. Oh, no. I thought those were names. I thought people signed up. It also says now in kind of a cloudy, kind of a mixed-matched unified. Proxmox. Oh, yeah. It's a tag cloud. VLANs. Ultimate. Ultimate? Ubuntu. Ubuntu. Texas. Docker. Oh, no, TrueNAS. Texas. Can you read? Your handwriting leaves a lot to be desired.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Wi-Fi 6. Pi hold. Now, did you talk about all these? Yes. So that's not even false advertising. Now, the other one says PODCAST in all caps, and then EEN in lower caps, because I think you probably forgot to put that in there. Exclamation mark. Mics. Software. Sales. Editing. Questions. Community. Clips. Gear. That's good. That's good advertising.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You wanted a show.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You might show up and find out.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I think it stands for fidelity, but that could be wrong. But yeah, wireless networks, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And 6 is just better than 5, you know? Yeah. It's the next version. Better than 4, too. It's here, though, right? Wi-Fi 6. Wi-Fi 6. It's here. Many devices are Wi-Fi 6 enabled, but not all of them.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's a wider pipe but not a faster pipe. Cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
If you were to command a space and advertise it, did you do that at that conference? Did you start one?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay. I'm not a hater. We have shipit.show. We do. But that's because we could not get shipit.fm.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's cool. So if you're going to start a space, though, you're going to step outside your comfort zone. And next year at that conference, I'm going to run a space.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
How do you keep up in the React Native world?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Brand new architecture, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What else, man? Anything else?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, that's probably expensive. Yeah. That's a nice domain.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Awesome.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Now you're a podcaster.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Damn. You did it. I did.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We all did it. It's done.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's fun. You just talk to each other.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Our final two conversations are with a husband and wife pair, but we speak to each of them separately because they had their son and daughter with them at the event, which is awesome, but means they had to take turns on kid duty. First up, Avindra Fernando, an independent software consultant. After Avi, we speak with his wife, Aditi Ravachandran. Aditi is an independent software consultant.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Is there an echo in here? No. Is there a power couple in here? I think so. Well, we're here with Avi Fernando? Fernando. Fernando. We're here with, I was about to call you Abby. I just changed the A sound. Abby. I'm Abby now, y'all. Avi Fernando. That's right. From Kansas. Kansas City. Kansas City. Born and raised? Not born and raised. Born in Sri Lanka. Okay, Sri Lanka.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
How did you get to Kansas? How did I get to Kansas?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Rock Chalk Jayhawk. Oh, Rock Chalk. Yeah, absolutely. Sorry, we speak a different language here in the Midwest.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I said Rock Chalk Jayhawk. Rock Chalk Jayhawk, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's their saying. Rock Chalk Jayhawk. That's our chant. Yeah. The KU Jayhawks. Jock's the motto. They're the Jayhawks. The mascot. Rock, Jock, Jayhawk. Rock, Chock, Jayhawk. Rock, Chock, Jayhawk. That's right. Yes.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I did not go to KU. All right. But I've been there many a times, and I know the chance because I live nearby. All right, so you're 19, moved from Sri Lanka to Kansas, of all places. That's right. Yeah. And then you never go back.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Got married, started a family, started a business.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Probably skipping over a lot of life there, but.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
In lockstep.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's good stuff. Yeah. And you are a React guy?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What's your list of specialties? Why'd you list our specialties for you?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And you are running your own business?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Gotcha. So you were kind of a weekend warrior at that point.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You had a job.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I was wondering because for a lot of people going into their own business, especially a services business like a consultancy, the question is how do I get that flywheel going? Do I just quit my job and take the leap or do I weekend warrior it for a while? So did you have a plan from the start or was it just kind of like opportunistic? Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
The best time is now. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And so you've been doing that for three years?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What's the hardest part?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I still haven't had to. The larger the org, the less they care.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Meantime to payment. Here's a pro tip on your terms. Take that net 30 and turn it into due upon receipt. Yep. Because if they're big enough, they're not going to care anyways. They're going to pay you when they want to. And if they're small, they'll take that net 30 very seriously, and they'll pay on the 30th day.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So if you just change that to due upon receipt, and if they're serious, they'll just pay you as fast as they can. But the other ones will ignore you anyways, so they're not going to pay attention to your net 30. It won't really matter that much, but you might as well try to get paid as fast as possible.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
But yeah, the larger ones, it's like you're a vendor in a system.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
The nice thing is, though, on the larger ones, is once you get that deal set up, and you're in the system, and you're on those terms... they will actually pay you reliably. Whereas the smaller customers, they might run out of money in the meantime or something and just not have the money to pay you. I certainly hit that as well with my time.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So when I first started, I thought to myself, if I want to work 40 hours a week and I can bill X dollars per hour, I think it was like 75 when I started, and I can get that 80% of the time, then I'll make this much money. Does that dog hunt? And you look at that number and you're like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I can live off of that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What I didn't realize is that working 40 hours a week, if that's what you want to do, which is what I wanted to do, and billing anywhere close to 40 hours a week, those two things don't happen, right?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's a dream.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So what percentage of your working hours are you billing? Is it 50%, 80%? Because you're a solo consultant, right? So you don't have any help on anything, maybe some software doing some stuff?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
But like everything that has to happen in your business, you're doing it or software is doing it. How much of your time are you billing on a weekly percentage wise? Don't need hours.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And you have a large customer, which helps.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
But you got an 80-20 rule on your customers. Like currently you have an 80% customer. Yeah. And everything else. Yes. Yes. So that helps you get to that 80% billable.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
If you had... three smaller customers at the same time and no larger one, you'd spend more of your time trying to fill that pipeline.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And if that 80 turns into zero, now you're like flip-flopped. So there's risks on either side.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
There's no perfect way to set it up.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
and i have a bunch of them so the way i look at it is i got six kids and i look at it like every year i lose six years yeah you know because all six of them get one year older that's right so that's six years they've actually gained on a single year and so how precious is each one of those oh absolutely you know yeah once they're all adults those years won't matter quite as much but right now they're not coming back i'm about to start crying man yeah
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Look at the three of us here. It's hitting me hard. Although, Avi's got us beat because his kids are literally with him. Yes. Last year, I had a son with me and the year before, but... Yeah, I considered bringing my son, and I really wanted to bring him.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
How old is he?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
He's a little young. Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
He was like... He's flexing.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You're cool.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's true. They're still in lockstep. Yeah. Look at that. After all these years. So you're doing the consultancy. What does she do then?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
All right, so you're both kind of doing everything the same. Now, is one of you better than the other?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, exactly. You might as well minimize your costs.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yes, because I listened to your guys' episode.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So we need to decide right now before she gets here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And if she does.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Power couple.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Did you know that before that? I didn't know that before that. It was proof you were listening then.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Or very smart. I think it's pretty smart.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
A little bit of both. There's a fine line between a crazy person and a wise person, isn't there? Any twins in there? Nope. Okay. All organic. I'm a power dad.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's right. Well, thanks for chatting with us, Avi. It was fun. Oh, absolutely, yeah. Well, thanks for having me. It was a blast. It was the best.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
These are people that have been on the show. Those are not you.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Well, we're not doing video here.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So this will be audio only, but... What did you have for breakfast?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We're just sound checking, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Mm-hmm. And coffee?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Lots of coffee?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I had two eggs, over easy.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
No toast. No toast. I had some hash browns. Light fruit. And one strawberry. And one slice of orange.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
The breakfast of champions. I remember it like it was just this morning.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, I know how that goes too.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
For sure. My mom used to do that constantly. We call her like the garbage disposal because she would not let anything get thrown away. And whatever was left over, she's like, just give it to me. She was never happy about it. She's like, I'll eat that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I'm going to eat it now. We're not throwing anything away, which I appreciate that sentiment. But it's like, well, you're just taking in empty calories on our behalf, mom.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, totally. So we spoke with Avi yesterday.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So we got his side of the story.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Let's hear the real story. He told us that you guys met at KU.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And you're still together.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah. Two kids.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Two businesses. Yeah. And so you're doing very similar things.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
How did you get into it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And so when you graduated from KU, you had an engineering degree?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
One step in front of the other, huh?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And now you're doing mobile apps or something?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And between you and your husband, who's the better software engineer?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So she's not going to answer that one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Because you've tried and it didn't work, or you never tried it?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I think that sounds healthy. What do you think, Adam? It's not bad. Yeah. I don't disagree, but I enjoy working with my wife, so.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I can't. You might be missing out on something you didn't realize.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I said to him, I said to Avi, power couple.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Just in the business side, obviously.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Like that story in a different space is the beginning for so many people. It's really rinse and repeat in your little niche and there's like not guaranteed success. But if you do it long enough, I mean, you're going to bring so much value to so many people.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Do you charge a referral fee?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
dinner out or anything you know dinner's on him you should do it you guys are giving me ideas you should do it in like marital favors that's what we do and there's lots of ways you could take that obviously yeah but i should yeah i would leverage it yeah every time i send you a referral i get a manicure and a pedicure or something yeah if you're into that kind of thing the joker said the best thing he said if you're good at something don't do it for free yeah
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Do you see yourself scaling beyond what your parents did with your business?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
What about family?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Scaling your family?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
No.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
It's a lot. That was a quick one.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah. I got 2.5.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Well, that's exciting.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Good luck to you. Thanks for stopping by and talking with us.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's all and that's it. Our All Things Open 2024 hallway track coverage ends right here. Well, that's not 100% true, I guess, because we do have a ChangeLog++ members-only episode coming soon, so stay tuned for that if you are a++ supporter. Otherwise, yeah, this is it. Until next year, at least. One more shout-out to all of our guests on this Anthology episode.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
You were doing so well. Is that how you do it right? You were doing so well.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, it's a pretty cool brand You've never had it? Maybe I have. I'm just not a butter snob, so I don't know if I've had it or not. I think my Wi-Fi is the worst of the butter.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
That's vodka. I would tend to agree that butter is hard to go wrong with. It's just really good.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Butter's the way. Especially grass-fed Irish cows. That's right, man. What do you mean? You don't do butter tasting? I butter taste all the time, man. Daily, pretty much daily, I taste some butter. Butter's good. Butter's good.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Great lighting, too. Yeah. Very nice.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Oh, Factorio. Oh, that's the game, right? Yeah. Like some sort of a builder game? Yeah. I haven't played it, so I'm literally ignorant right here. I'm telling you how much I know about it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
But that one... What's different about that one?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So Chris Hiller on JS Party is big into that game. And he was trying to tell me about it. And I was like, I don't want to try playing that because I'll probably never stop.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Like a grind? Are you grinding?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
And the joy, I guess, would be similar joys.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, I use video games now as like a decompression from work, you know, 45 minutes to an hour after I'm done working.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Put everything else away and just play for an hour and then I can be done and move on.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Oh, yeah. I played Geometry Dash way back in the day. Oh, yeah? I moved on from it because I was kind of addicted to it. Do you ever move on from it? Well, maybe not. I mean, it changes you. Yeah. But, yeah, I love Geometry Dash. I just don't play it anymore.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
We should give BMC some Geometry Dash.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah, I got big into Roller Coaster Tycoon and SimCity. Oh, yeah. After that, I kind of moved away from builders myself. Yeah. But now it's Rocket League. My kids like Rocket League, and now I like it. And so we play it together, which is great. Co-op.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So you're talking about things. You try to self-host everything you can. What services do you not self-host and why?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Well, they're changing things. Are they? Bitwarden? Yeah, Bitwarden relicensed an SDK. I thought I saw they reversed that, though.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
This was like last week, though. So there's news since then?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Because they pushed. There was pushback.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
So they reversed course. That's cool. I'm glad to hear that.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Are you happy with that?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Gotcha.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Photos is interesting because we've debated photos recently. We did. That's kind of a hard line of... Like the one thing you don't want to mess up?