Crimeatorium
Part 1: Wisconsin vs Jacob Cayer | The Murders of Heesun and Sabrina Teague
Mon, 11 Nov 2024
Part 1: The following is a condensed version of the 2020 trial for the murders of Sabrina Teague and her mother, Heesun Teague. Jacob Cayer was out on bond for two crimes, one of the conditions of that bond was that he commit no other crimes.Watch for subsequent parts in the next few daysSarama Teague's blog:https://justiceforsabsandsunny.com/Music:Tim Kulig (timkulig.com)Titles: Crimeatorium IntroLicensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/Support:Donations are appreciated, if you would like to help support the show, use the link below and buy me a burrito and a Diet Pepsi:http://Ko-fi.com/crimeatoriumFor $3 a month, you can support this show on Patreon, in return you will receive ad free, early, and bonus episodeshttps://www.patreon.com/crimeatoriumIf you like the podcast, please share it on social media and with friends, and take a minute to leave a review for Crimeatorium on Spotify, Podchaser or Apple Podcasts.Crimeatorium Blog for updates about the show:https://crimeatorium.com/blogContact:[email protected] you for listening!Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/crimeatorium9009/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy
The following is a condensed version of the 2020 trial for the murders of Sabrina Teague and her mother, Heesan Teague. 26-year-old Jacob Kayer was out on bond for two crimes. One of the conditions of that bond was that he commit no further crimes.
Because trials can be quite sterile when talking about victims, I wanted to take a few minutes and describe these two women who were so undeserving of the crimes perpetrated against them. Sarah May Teague, his son's daughter and Sabrina's sister, said it best when she said, They were more than the ex-girlfriend and the mother.
They were fully complex human beings, beautiful people, and I just want people to know that, and I love them. Hee-sun Teague was born in South Korea on January 13, 1952. Hee-sun, or Sunny as she was also known, immigrated to the United States at 30 years old and married James Teague. Together, they had two daughters, Sarah Mae and Sabrina. James died in 1999.
Hee-sun married again, and he died in 2014, leaving her a widow once again. Hee-sun struggled for the first 15 years of her life in the United States. She endured through it all and went to college, secured a good job, and provided very well for her daughters. Hee-sun went to college and earned her CPA certificate. The exam for this course is difficult and rigorous.
She eventually became employed by the U.S. Postal Service and had retired shortly before this savage and senseless crime. She loved ballroom dancing, shopping, and playing the piano. Sabrina Teague was born on December 15, 1992, in Green Bay, Wisconsin, and graduated from Pulaski High School. She was employed at Perkins and wanted to be a social worker.
She was shy and a fierce protector to those she loved. i cannot adequately describe the lives of hisan and sabrina only a family member and those closest to them can do that sarah may teague has a blog where she is brutally honest about the impact this crime has had on her and gives the readers a glimpse into who hisan and sabrina were
It is quite profound and I'm grateful to have been given a little insight into Heesun and Sabrina's lives. I encourage you all to read it. There will be a link in the show notes. Also, Sarah May took the stand and described Heesun and Sabrina to the court. Jacob Kare took the stand for direct and cross-examination.
It is quite long, he rambles off topic, and there are a lot of sounds from the microphone. I debated on whether to cut some of it out, but in the end, I kept it all because the interaction between him and the attorneys, as well as getting a feel for his mental state, is interesting. Just like with any trial, the sound level and quality varies.
This one is pretty good overall, and even though on the stand K.R. claims he was able to fix the audio of his lengthy interview with the police, I was not, so I didn't include it.
Good morning, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. I appreciate that you all showed up today. This is obviously extraordinary times and we're taking extraordinary measures here in the courtroom to make sure that everybody feels safe. And I appreciate that you showed up and that you're willing to hear this case. It's very important to the state, it's very important to Mr. that you do that.
As the court indicated, the purpose of an opening statement is to sort of provide a guide map or an outline for where we think the case is going to go. It's not an opportunity to make arguments at this point, and my statements aren't evidence. They merely introduce to you what I think the evidence will show. Sitting at council table is highly unusual for me during an opening statement.
The court indicated we're taking measures to make sure everything can be heard. If you are at all having trouble hearing me or understanding what I'm saying because of the mask or because of the lack of volume or whatever it may be, please raise your hand and alert the court and let us know. You're here today to hear the case of the state of Wisconsin versus Jacob Kayer.
What you will hear is that on June 7th, 2016, Jacob Kerr turned 1368 Riverdale Drive in the village of Hobart into a real-life horror movie. Sabrina Teague and her live-in boyfriend Joel Kennedy, they walked on the scene of that horror movie at 8 p.m. that night. When they entered the home through the garage door, Sabrina walked into the home. They could hear the shower running in the bathroom.
Sabrina walked to the first floor bathroom. where her mother's dead and badly beaten body was located. She took out her phone to call 911, started walking back toward the kitchen area where Joel was located. Mr. Kerr jumped out of the door in the laundry room and attacked them with a knife. This is a real life horror movie description. Mr. Kerr
attacked both sabrina and joel in the living room joel kennedy is an eyewitness to this event who survived the brutal attack from mr care not unharmed mind you but with significant injuries himself a struggle ensued in the kitchen mr kennedy was able to go outside to the garage and grab a snow shovel The struggle continued in the garage area as Sabrina and Mr. Kare poured out into the garage.
Joel struck Mr. Kare in the face with the shovel. There are physical injuries consistent with that. Mr. Kare went to the ground and Mr. Kennedy ran back in the house. He closed the door to the garage. He ran past the bathroom where his son, T, lay dead.
into his son's room where he closed the door and locked it, into his son's bathroom in her master bedroom where he closed the door and locked it, and he called 911. You will hear that 911 call. You'll hear the panic in his voice. You'll hear him huffing and puffing, explaining how blood is spurting out of his arm.
Joel Kennedy had been stabbed with a kitchen knife that went in one side, out the other, and into his chest. as he lay on the floor in the kitchen before getting up, kicking Mr. Kerr off and having the struggle ensue. He knew that Sabrina had been left with Mr. Kerr in the garage area of the home.
Sabrina eventually opened the garage door and the struggle ensued and poured out of the garage into the driveway area, into some foliage and trees outside the residence. There is a blood trail leading There's a blood trail everywhere. This entire house is covered with blood.
There's a blood trail leading from the garage, down the driveway, into a tree line, and into the backyard of the neighbor's residence where Sabrina's body was located by law enforcement officers just minutes later. The knife covered in Sabrina's blood is located in that tree line by law enforcement officers the next day.
exactly where Mr. Kerr diagrammed it in a map of his confession to law enforcement. This is a real life horror movie, ladies and gentlemen. It is not a mystery. We know exactly who caused these deaths. We know exactly what happened. Unlike many cases, this is not a situation where it's a whodunit. There is an eyewitness to the events that transpired, Joel Kennedy.
Mr. Kerr is found by law enforcement about 30 minutes after their arrival, hiding in the woods behind the house, covered in blood, where he's found by a K-9 unit from the Brown County Sheriff's Office. He is arrested. He is brought to the hospital, where he gives a detailed, many-hour confession to Sergeant Holschbach of the Brown County Sheriff's Office.
DNA evidence is located on the knife, confirming that that was the knife that killed Sabrina Teague. Detailed DNA evidence is found on a tire iron located inside the house, which confirms that his son's blood is located on the curved end of that tire iron. And DNA consistent with Mr. Kayer is found on the handle. Sabrina Teague's blood is located on swabs from Mr. Cater's hands, both of them.
This is not a whodunit, ladies and gentlemen. You have an eyewitness. You found on the scene covered in blood. A confession and DNA evidence. Over the course of the next few days, the state will present a number of witnesses to you to demonstrate that Mr. Kerr committed these offenses. As indicated, you will hear first the 911 call.
You will hear Joel Kennedy calling 911 and explaining to them what happened, that they were attacked in their home. You will hear them identifying it as Jake and identifying Mr. Kerr as Sabrina's ex-boyfriend. Joel will explain to you how he had met Jake on one prior occasion at Walmart.
There was a brief argument between Mr. Kare and Sabrina, but he was able to identify then Mr. Kare as Sabrina's ex-boyfriend. He will tell you Mr. Kare had never been to the home during the seven months that he lived with Sabrina at that residence. In addition to Mr. Kennedy's statement about what happened, You will hear about how law enforcement officers arrived on the scene shortly thereafter.
They came upon the scene making a tactical approach based on the nature of the call that came in from Mr. Kennedy that it was a weapons call. The officers who approached from the right side of the residence walked up into the neighbor's backyard where they saw Sabrina's body lying in the backyard. They rolled her over and attempted to administer aid, but she was deceased.
After that, other officers made contact with Mr. Kennedy at the front door of the residence, cleared the residence, walked Mr. Kennedy out of the residence where he was cooperative with law enforcement. He was removed to emergency services. Officers cleared the residence and began a perimeter search for Mr. Kayer. Shortly thereafter, officers located Mr. Kayer on scene.
He was taken into custody by the officers, brought to a clearing where he was searched, His pockets were emptied. In his pockets, there was rope, cord. In his pockets was Sabrina's cell phone. His clothes were covered in blood. The officers will tell you that his pants, his shirt, a mask or a head covering that he had, all had significant blood staining on them.
Mr. Kerr was transported to the hospital and gave a detailed statement.
to sergeant holschbach and sergeant yankee of the brown county sheriff's office it's not a situation where after 12 hours of being grilled he finally said yeah i did it you got me it is a detailed statement that indicates many aspects of this that are corroborated by the forensic evidence recovered on scene and the photographs that are taken by the state crime lab when they come to that scene he talks about the water running both the shower and the sink
In the bathroom where his son Teague's body were both running when law enforcement arrived. You can hear it on the 911 tape. Officers will tell you that they turned that off. Mr. Kerr can talk about washing himself and washing his feet during his statement. Socks are recovered in the sink of that bathroom with his son Teague's blood on them.
Mr. Kerr is barefoot when he's recovered by law enforcement officers. He talks about stabbing. There is a video. You will see a video of Mr. Kare taking a pen and reenacting the stabbing motion toward Sabrina Teague's neck and upper torso, consistent with a large stab wound to Sabrina Teague's neck, which unfortunately you will have to see in the photographs from the medical examiner.
He would talk about, in addition to the stabbing, that there was blunt force injuries, that he recalls swinging a hammer or an object like a hammer, not a hammer, but something like a hammer. He recalls swinging that. He believes in the bathroom, consistent with the tire iron recovered, and the significant blunt force injuries to Hisantique that you will observe.
He talks about riding his bike to the scene. He talks about putting on his headphones and getting angry and getting worked up listening to Hollywood Undead. You will find that his bike is recovered on scene. Officers noticed it in the tree line as they made the approach from the left hand side. He photographed his bike turned over on scene.
You will note that there's an open window outside of Sabrina's bedroom.
clearly visible from the outside of the home that the window is ajar and then from the inside that that window is broken there's grass inside as if that was the area for forced entry we will also learn that officers recovered a backpack unseen a backpack filled with miscellaneous items mr care's identification card his driver's license inside that backpack along with knives scrapers
a rusty railroad spike, a hammer that is duct taped and fashioned as a weapon with a carabiner on it. There are zip ties recovered in the residence by Hesontigue's body, consistent with the zip ties found in Mr. Kerr's backpack. The tire iron used to kill Hesontigue is wrapped in duct tape. There's a roll of duct tape in Mr. Kerr's backpack.
There's duct tape around that hammer with the carabiner and fashioned as a weapon. He details the rage that he has and the anger that he felt that night, that he had been in an argument, that he rode to that scene angry. He provides a diagram of where these events took place to law enforcement. The law enforcement officer taking his statement had not been to the scene.
This was a Hobart-Lawrence scene where DCI, the Division of Criminal Investigation for the State, was on scene. The sergeant who took the statement had not been out there. They were relaying some information back and forth, but he had very little information. They had not found the knife.
Mr. Kerr provided a diagram outlining exactly where the knife would be located, and that's right where they found it. And he recalls Sabrina being stabbed in some foliage. completely consistent with the crime scene that we located. She stumbled out from the garage into the driveway, into that tree line where there's blood staining, and into the neighbor's backyard.
When you hear that statement to Sergeant Holmsbrock, you'll hear parts of it. You'll hear Sergeant Holmsbrock talk about the statement, and then you will actually hear parts of it, and you will see the reenactment. And then you will see the evidence from the crime lab. You will see the pictures from the scene corroborating the information given in that statement.
It will be abundantly clear to you that Mr. Kare is the person who caused the death of his son and Sabrina T. And that he did so with intent to kill them. And again, you will hear then from the crime lab, from the DNA analyst who will confirm. You'll hear DNA evidence isn't perfect, and we talked about this in voir dire. There's blood all over this house, right?
And the crime lab isn't gonna test 300 samples of blood from every different location in that house. The purpose of DNA is to identify who is our perpetrator. With Sabrina Teague's blood on his hands, literally, her blood on the knife, DNA consistent with Mr. Kerr and his son Teague on the tire iron.
The DNA evidence that was tested is consistent and confirms what an eyewitness told you and what Mr. Cahir himself confessed to. At the end of this case, you will be presented with all the facts, but you'll also be presented then with jury instructions. Those jury instructions outline the elements that the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
As we discussed briefly at Gwadir, the elements for first degree intentional homicide are relatively straightforward. Did Mr. Cater cause their death? And did he do so with intent to kill? Both will be abundantly clear after you hear the evidence in this case. For all the reasons I've stated above, we know our perpetrator. He himself admitted to it. We have an eyewitness with DNA.
He's found unseen covered in blood. It doesn't get any simpler than that in terms of who committed these offenses. His intent to kill is likewise clear. You will hear from the medical examiner about the abundant, vicious injuries these two women suffered. There can be no other intent when you stab someone ten times or more.
There can be no other intent when you batter someone so badly with a tire iron and stab them and have them hanging by a rope in the bathroom. What else could Mr. Kare's intent have been but to kill those two women? Likewise with Joel. You won't be asked whether he caused the injury, whether he attempted to do this, and whether he intended to kill Joel.
Joel has a gaping wound in his arm from a through-and-through stab from a large kitchen knife that went into his chest. The amount of force necessary to clear through someone's arm and then through the chest, what other intent could he have had at that moment but to kill Joel Kennedy? It will be abundantly clear to you when you hear the evidence in this case.
You'll also hear about some of the other collateral crimes that are associated with this that are for your consideration here. And that is burglary. He's charged with burglary or entering a residence with the intent to commit a felony. Clearly entered the residence. You're able to see the area in Sabrina's room where he entered. Without their consent, they weren't home.
Broke through a bedroom window. And obviously his crimes that he committed in terms of killing them and attempting to kill Joel are his felony offenses that he attempted. That was his intent in entering that residence that day. And then finally, there are two counts of bail jumping. Meaning Mr. Kerr was on bond in two other criminal cases.
One of the standard conditions of bond in those cases is that you cannot commit any other criminal offenses while on bond. You can be released from custody, but there is a statutory condition that you cannot commit crimes while released on bond.
So if you find Mr. K guilty of committing the homicides and committing the burglary, committing the attempted homicide, if you find him guilty of any one of those, he naturally is also guilty of the bail jumping because he was on bond in those two criminal cases at this time. You will also hear about a jury instruction about reasonable doubt, proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
That is the highest burden in the criminal justice system. It's the highest burden in our entire justice system, that the state must prove to you that there is evidence to support each element of these crimes beyond a reasonable doubt. We are confident that if you listen carefully to the evidence in this case, and you give a fair and impartial consideration of that evidence,
that you will clearly find that the state has met its burden of proof with respect to each of those elements beyond your reasonable doubt.
And that is what we ask of you here today, that you give a fair and impartial consideration of all the evidence that will come before you over the next few days, that you consider it carefully in deliberations, and that you render the only verdict that we think is possible in this case, the only verdict, the only reasonable inference in this case,
The only reasonable hypothesis in this case is that Mr. Kerr committed these crimes and that he intended to commit these crimes and that you will find him guilty.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Lissette. Mr. Cotton?
Good morning, everybody. Can everybody hear me okay? Okay. I wanted to start by thanking everybody for being here for this very important case. As the state indicated, you're here today to decide whether Mr. Koehler is responsible for these crimes and I'm not going to get into the details of the offenses because you just heard a little bit of an overview.
What I do want to mention is that opening statements are not evidence. Opening statements are simply the, and that's why you're not taking notes right now, opening statements are simply the observations of the attorneys. Evidence is what you hear in court. Evidence is what you hear from witnesses who take the stand.
Evidence is what you hear when, whether it's an expert witness or a police officer witness, evidence is what you hear when an individual comes in here and offers their observations to you. We have a system of justice in this country that I think is the best in the world, and it's a very important system of justice. Defendants are presumed innocent at all stages of the proceedings.
You've probably heard about that in your personal lives, and we talked about that a little bit in jury selection, but every defendant is presumed innocent under the law.
In that presumption of innocence remains with the defendant, with Mr. Kher, the presumption of innocence remains throughout the whole trial, only until such time if the state is able to introduce evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. The reason why we have such a standard is because defendants are not required to prove their innocence. In other words,
some systems have a requirement that a person come into court and start putting on evidence to show why they didn't do a particular crime that's not the system that our founding fathers created here in america they created a system where defendant is presumed innocent and you as jurors despite what you might hear an opening statement are required to follow that very important principle and remember at all times that you are to presume that mr care is innocent of these
very, very serious crimes. We'd ask that as you sit here through this trial, this will be a multi-day trial, we're sure of that.
I think the parties will work very hard to make sure we can move the case along for you as efficiently as possible because it's important that things that we can agree on, we'll try our best to agree on those things, but there will be a number of points that we don't agree on, of course, in which time there will be cross-examination of witnesses. Jacob Cahill is the defendant here.
Back on Friday when we did our jury selection, we talked a little bit about a defendant testifying, and I had mentioned during jury selection that, of course, a defendant has a constitutional right not to testify. So a defendant has sort of two rights in that vein, the right to choose not to testify, but the other end of that coin is that the defendant has the right to testify.
And this may very well be a case where, in addition to cross-examining the state's witnesses that they put on, this may very well be a case where Mr. Kerr will choose to testify and give his version of events for you folks. So I want you to keep an open mind throughout the entire case that you're hearing, because the state has the right to go first.
They're the ones that get to introduce the first witnesses. But then we have an opportunity after the state has, they say, rested, we have an opportunity to present witnesses if we might choose to do so, including at a second phase of the trial if it ever got to that. But of course, in the first phase of the trial, Mr. Kerr as a witness testifying about his version of events.
The most important thing from our perspective, folks, is that you keep an open mind throughout these proceedings.
We hope that all of you can follow your oath very seriously by remembering that Mr. Cater is presumed innocent at all stages of the proceeding, keeping an open mind about what you're hearing, and realizing that in many cases, you've heard the expression, there's two sides to every story.
I would go so far as to say there's oftentimes a bigger picture of what's happening, and sometimes we have to think very carefully about what the bigger picture is when we're making the decisions that are so important in this case.
And I would urge you to remember that there's always a bigger picture at play that we believe will, by the end of these proceedings, the end of this week, will be evident to you folks, and you'll find Mr. Cater not guilty. Thank you.
We will now begin with the state calling its first witness to elicit evidence on the issue of guilt. Mr. Lassay, your first witness.
Your Honor, in lieu of a witness, the state is going to play the 911 calls. It's my understanding that parties have stipulated that the 911 calls can be entered without the need of someone from dispatch to confirm them.
Yes. All right, so that's the agreement. Go ahead, Mr. Lassay. Thank you.
Hello?
Hello?
Excuse me.
1-3-6-8.
1-3-6-8? Oh, shit, he's trying to break into the house now. Okay, you said 1-3-6-8. Remember the old drive? 1-3-6-8. Okay, and someone's trying to break into your house? They already broke in. I'm standing here. I'm bleeding out. Okay, do you have a weapon? Yes.
What does he have? I don't know.
He's running outside the door. Okay, do you know who he is? How many people are in your house right now? Okay.
And can you guys tell us, where is he right now?
What?
Where is the male?
I don't know.
Okay.
Where did he stab you? Okay. Okay. Is that anyone else who gets injured?
My girlfriend and her mom are injured. What happened to them?
They got stabbed, I believe. Okay.
Where are they right now? Are they by you? No. Okay, and you don't know, can you hear them at all? No. Okay, do you have a description of them? Okay.
Okay, and long brown hair with black shirt and blue jeans? Okay.
All right. And do you know if he came in the vehicle or on foot?
Okay.
And do you... You didn't see it. How did he get into the house? Does anyone know him?
I don't know. He was here when we got up here.
Okay. How long ago did this start happening?
It was right when we got home about 15 minutes ago.
Okay. And you don't know where they were stabbed at all?
No, I don't.
Okay. Okay. Does he get any money to pay for getting a lot of help? Do you have any other descriptions? Did he have any tattoos? What type of knife did he have? I don't know.
I don't know. I think it was at the kitchen, right? Okay. I don't know.
Okay. Did you hear anyone else in the house? No. Do you know if there was another person that had a knife or anything?
No, I don't know. Okay.
And when is the last time that you saw your girlfriend and your mom?
My girlfriend was fighting with my mom. I don't know if you don't hear that. Okay.
How long ago was that, do you know?
About five minutes. I think he might be gone. Okay.
Call her. Okay. But you didn't hear, you don't know where the other two females are at, correct? No, no, no.
No, I don't. Okay.
And you said he had long brown hair and his clothing was a black shirt and blue jeans?
Yes, I believe so.
Okay. And you didn't notice any tattoos or any scars on his face or anything?
No. Okay.
No.
Okay. All right. And you don't think you knew him either? No.
Um, it's my girlfriend's ex-boyfriend.
It's your girlfriend's ex-boyfriend?
Yes.
Okay. Do you know his name?
Jake? I don't know what his last name is.
What is his first name, do you think?
Jacob.
Okay, what is your girlfriend's name?
Sabrina.
Sabrina?
Yes.
What's her last name?
T-E-A-G-U-E. Okay. Okay.
All right. And you're still locked in the bathroom?
Yes, I am. We're going to stay here until we have to get here. Okay.
All right, you're doing the job I'm calling, okay? And you were stabbed in the arm, you said? Yes. Okay, how was that for you?
A lot of blood.
Okay, you're losing a lot of blood?
Yeah, I have a towel on it, but it's okay. Okay.
The paramedics will be able to clean that up, okay? Okay, thank you. Do you hear them there? No. Okay, I'm going to stay on the phone with you until you hear all the stairs, okay?
Yeah.
Okay, do you know if any of the doors are unlocked?
No, they're not. Okay.
Doors aren't locked? No.
Okay, is there a garage door that they can use to get in?
Yes, there is a garage door. What is that?
Okay.
Do you have a spare key outside or anything?
There is a spare key on the front door of the new block.
Okay.
Oh, oh.
Okay, do you have any idea where he lives? No. Okay, and do you hear anyone yet?
No, I don't.
Okay.
They need to help us kick the door in.
You said, okay, you're saying they need to kick the door in?
Yes. Okay.
What is your name?
Joel, J-O-E-L.
And your last name?
Kennedy.
Okay. Like I said, they're going to be able to clean you up, okay? I'm sure of that.
Oh, it fucking hurts.
I believe it. Do you hear anyone outside yet?
No, I don't hear anybody.
Okay. What type of vehicle should be in the driveway?
A gray Chevy Cobalt. Is that it? Are they here?
We do have officers in the area, but I'm gonna wait for them to get in the house to disconnect, okay?
Okay.
You, oh, you're not with your girlfriend. You're not sure what type of vehicle that male would be driving if he had it?
I do not know, no. Okay.
And then was it your mom that was in the house with you or was it your girlfriend?
It was my girlfriend's mom.
Do you know her? What's her name?
He's son. H-E-E-S-U-N. Okay. T. T-E-E-G? T-E-A-T-U-E. Okay. Thank you very much.
No, not a problem. How are you doing?
I've been in a lot of pain, so this and that are okay.
Okay. And it's bleeding control at all?
Okay.
Holy shit.
What's going on?
I just looked at it. All I did was look at the towel and spray.
Yeah, don't look at it. Just keep it covered and hope your medics get there. Okay. Okay, and do you have pressure on the itch to stop the bleeding?
Yes, I do.
Okay. And where is it on your arm?
On my left arm, yeah.
Okay. You're doing good, Joel, okay?
Yeah.
And what was the last thing that you felt after you knocked him out?
She's in the shower, in the bathtub.
What bathroom are you in? Is there two stories?
It's two stories. There's two bathrooms on the first floor.
Okay.
I'm in the bathroom. That's in the first back of the house.
Okay. And so you think you're in the back of the house bathroom and she might be in the front?
Yes, she's in the front bathroom.
Okay. Rachel, have you heard anything yet?
No.
Okay.
I think he's gone though.
You what?
I think he's gone.
Oh, that's fine. I'm gonna stay on the phone with you, like I said, until officers come and approach you. And you, Rachel, you don't have any weapons on you, do you? Um, I got one loaded. Okay, I need you to put that away.
I closed it on the counter in the bathroom.
You what?
I closed it on the counter in the bathroom. Okay. Should I close the door?
Yeah.
Okay.
I don't know.
I don't know. I know.
They're trying to make sure that you're safe, okay?
Are they here? Is there any way to find out?
Yeah, they are, but they're going on the perimeter, okay? They're just making sure that no one else is in the house and that you stay safe.
So that's why I'm staying on the house with you, and we're going to make sure that you cover that room, okay? Okay.
What did you say? So what... Okay, are you, are you still there Joel? Yes.
Okay.
Okay, what did you say was the name?
He went inside the home and attacked them when they come in.
Okay. Okay.
Okay. It's good that you called right away, okay? Just remember that, Joel. Yeah. Okay. And how much are you bleeding, man?
I'm still bleeding heavily. Okay. And my heart is numb.
Okay, just hold on one second, okay, Joel?
Yeah.
Okay, Joel, I need you to walk towards the front door to the front entrance. Let me know what you're saying, okay?
Are they inside?
Yeah, they're asking you to walk towards the front door so they've already secured the house, okay? All right. Let me know when you're going to open up the door. Did you open up the door?
No.
Okay. All right. Please come up to the witness stand.
Deputy Justin Raska, R-A-S-K-A.
Deputy Raska, can you state for the record how you are employed? I'm a patrol deputy with Brown County Sheriff's Office. And how long have you been with the Brown County Sheriff's Office? About eight and a half years. And were you working in your capacity as a sheriff's deputy on June 7, 2016 at approximately 8 p.m.? Yes, sir.
And do you recall being dispatched to a scene at 1368 Riverdale Drive in the village of Hobart? Yes, sir. When you responded to this scene, were there other officers or deputies on scene?
I responded immediately when it was dispatched out. I don't think anybody was on scene immediately, but there were people on scene prior to my arrival.
Okay, who was on scene when you got there?
Officer Radloff with Hobart Lawrence PD, K-9 Deputy Brad Dernbach with Brown County Sheriff's Office, and right before me, Deputy Miller, Eric Miller with Brown County Sheriff's Office.
Okay, do you know if there was an O-9 PD officer there when you arrived yet or no? I don't know if he was there yet, no. Deputy Raska, I'm going to show you what has been marked as Exhibit 1 at 1. Can you describe that photograph?
Yes, kind of in the center of the photograph is the residence, 1368, that we responded to, County J or Riverdale Drive, kind of at the lower corner of that address. After you arrived, where did you go? I met with Eric Miller. I believe we met with Deputy Dernbach and Randy Radloff somewhere in the area right down here, kind of in front of the address.
And then I stayed with Eric Miller and I approached the house. Okay, and from which direction did you and Deputy Miller approach the house? Deputy Miller and I approached kind of along this tree line. It's kind of like a hedge or shrub tree line along here. Deputy Miller and I approached kind of in between the tree line and this neighboring house, 1378.
And it was just the two of you who made that approach? Correct. And for the record, that was the driveway to 1368. It's right in the middle. There's a tree line just to the right of that driveway, and you approached to the right of that tree line. Is that correct? Correct. And then I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1, App 2. Can you indicate what's depicted in that photograph?
This is the residence of 1368 right here. Residence of 1378 right here. Riverdale Drive or County J. John. This would have been, I believe it was probably this path right through here that Deputy Miller and I approached 1368.
Okay, so just indicating with the laser pointer, again, just to the right of the tree line and right of the driveway. Upon your approach to that residence, what did you observe?
Deputy Miller and I were approaching the residence. We observed a female body laying face down in the grass behind 1378.
So I'm showing you what's been previously marked as Exhibit 1F3. What is depicted in that photograph?
This is believed to be the female victim that we had located as we were making our approach.
And when you observed her, can you describe what you saw?
Saw a female that was laying face down in the grass. Immediately began giving commands to that female, not knowing what her involvement in the situation was whatsoever. Gave commands to the female and received no response whatsoever. Deputy Miller and I then approached the female, and I observed her again laying face down in the grass.
I could see that she had wounds on her back that were indicative of what probably would have been stab wounds.
When you made that observation of the female line there, did you see any other parties around?
No.
And you're with Deputy Miller at that point? Correct. The two of you both approached her together? Correct. What do you do with her body?
I believe I checked for a pulse initially while she was still laying face down on the grass. I did feel what I thought was a pulse, so I rolled the female victim over onto her back then, so her chest was exposed to me. I again observed a couple wounds that were indicative of what I believe to be stab wounds.
And I felt for not only a carotid pulse, but also a radial pulse on her wrist as well, attempting to observe any signs of life. In addition to feeling for a pulse, did you attempt any life-saving measures yourself? I did. I began CPR when I could no longer feel a pulse.
At some point in time, did Rescue arrive on scene to take over for you?
Yeah, Rescue arrived on scene along with a couple other officers or deputies from different agencies, and they took over the life-saving portion of the female victim while I continued to kind of search the area after that. After Rescue came and took over for you, what was the next thing that you did?
I met up then, I believe it was with Deputy Famry, who was on scene, or it could have been O-Night Officer Logan Webster, actually. There were a couple outbuildings that were behind 1378, including...
Bring you back to exhibit 1F1 to allow you to show where the outbuildings are.
Yeah, there's a garage, and I believe, I don't know if this is a shed or what else was back there, but there were a couple outbuildings behind 1378. Obviously, being in the immediate area of where one of these victims were laying, we wanted to search the area to make sure that the suspect was not actively in one of those buildings.
When you were searching the outbuildings behind the residence that you'd indicated as 1378, did you notice any parties on scene at that time? No. After searching or clearing those outbuildings, what did you do next?
I met up with Deputy Famry kind of in the driveway of 1368, kind of in this area right here, right on the corner.
That's the area still kind of blocked by the tree, but just in front of what, the garage of 1368? Correct.
We had then checked this garage as well. I believe this is the garage for 1368, one of the detached garages for 1368. So Deputy Samary and I then checked that garage, and we weren't able to locate anybody inside that garage as well.
That's the garage to the right of the residence on this photograph? Correct. All right. After doing that, what was the next thing that you did?
I had waited, we waited around briefly in front of the address, kind of in that driveway area again, for Lieutenant McCauley and K9 Deputy Dernbach. Deputy Dernbach had decided that at that point he wanted to attempt a track for the suspect using his partner pal, his K9 partner pal.
So I had met with him, and him and I kind of went off on me covering him, me following him, and we conducted a track kind of around the yard of 1368.
Were you aware at that time when you started the track if the complaining witness had exited the residence at that time? No, I wasn't aware of that at that time, no. That was not part of your responsibility? No. I want to bring you back to 1F3. Did you make any observations of the area around the body of the female? No, no, I didn't.
Back on 1F1, if you could use the laser pointer to depict the area where you believe Deputy Dernbach was when you started the track.
Do you mind if I go back to that last question? I was thinking of the environment immediately around her. I do recall that there was blood in the grass around her, around her body. I don't know if that was part of an answer to the question you were looking for, but specifically when I would kneel next to her to perform CPR, there was blood on the ground next to her in the grass.
Did you note any direction or any direction of travel or anything of that nature? Not that I recall. No, it was kind of pooling around here. All right. Back to 1F1, if you could note on there the area where you began the track with Deputy Dernbach. Yes, sir.
So we started in a counterclockwise manner. We kind of... Again, you would have to refer to him and how he works his partner. But we kind of moved in this direction around the yard, along the tree line, him looking for whatever reaction he would look for with his canine partner, and I was essentially his cover officer.
His primary responsibility was that dog and finding that track, and I wanted to make sure that he was safe.
At some point in time, did Deputy Nirenbach indicate to you that his dog had sort of developed a track or a scent? Yes, sir. And do you know about where that location was when the dog started a specific track?
It would have been in this back corner. I don't know exactly where we went into the tree line, but essentially we stopped. We went into the tree line a few feet, maybe five feet, and stopped, and Officer Dernbach then asked for more units because he made it appear as though his dog was indicating on something in that tree line. And did other units arrive for support? Yeah.
Deputy Miller then arrived back at our location along with Officer Logan Webster.
And once those two cover officers arrived along with yourself and Deputy Dernbach, what did you do?
We continued on to this wooded line. I was at Deputy Dernbach's rear. So, again, providing safety cover for him who obviously had the responsibility of following his dog. We went into the wood line a little bit, and Deputy Dernbach indicated that his dog was hitting heavy on a specific area inside the wood line. Can you describe the vegetation in there? Thick, dark.
I remember, I think I took my flashlight even out at some points because it was dark in that area. Considerably darker than standing out in the yard. I remember it wasn't like grown-up vegetation. It wasn't very large trees, but it was thick cover in there.
And do you recall about what time it was when you started to make that track? I don't remember the exact time frame.
It wouldn't have been probably around the 8.30 time. It wasn't too much longer after we had arrived on scene. CPR was given to the female victim, and then we met up with Officer Deputy Dernbach. It shouldn't have been too much longer after that point.
And once the track was initiated... Did the dog locate a subject fairly quickly? Yes. And do you know on that overhead roughly where the subject was located?
I believe it was going to be back in this corner right here. I remember there was a kind of a small clearing area with tall grass or weeds. The male suspect was laying down in, and that's where the dog had indicated, and that's kind of where Deputy Dernbach was giving his commands to him.
Can you describe the process then after you kind of discovered the male? Who makes contact with him first?
Yeah, so Deputy Dernbach was giving out commands to the male. At that point in time, he has to determine whether he's going to let his dog engage that suspect. K-9 PAL did engage the suspect, and then... Yeah, Deputy Miller and I came up, and one of us took, I believe Deputy Miller took his left arm. I took his right wrist. We got on each side of the suspect.
First and foremost, we wanted to make sure that he didn't have any weapons on him. He wasn't complying at first, and then we were able to see that his hands were empty. That's when we went hands-on with him, and we were able to secure one arm. I secured the other, and we were able to put handcuffs on him.
So you and Deputy Miller are the two people that put him in handcuffs? Yes. You indicated that he wasn't complying immediately. Was it a relatively short period of time where there was struggle, or how did that go down?
Yeah, when Deputy Dernbach had initially given him commands, it was show me your hands, indicated that he probably saw him in the grass, show me your hands. There was no compliance there. He wasn't indicating that he wasn't giving up to law enforcement. He wasn't showing us his hands or anything. or showing that he was there. So that was the time of non-compliance.
Past that, then when K-9 PAL engaged with the suspect, then we were able to see that his hands were empty and we were able to go hands-on with him and no longer had our weapons out at that point.
Were you able to make any specific observations of the male's person after you went hands-on with him?
Yeah, I remember he had damage to, he was wearing blue jeans. He had damage to his blue jeans as far as where the canine would have engaged. I believe that would have been on his left thigh kind of hip area. And there was a lot of blood. There was a lot of blood not only where the canine had engaged, but I remember his pants being full of blood as well. He had a bandage around one of his hands.
I want to say it was his right hand. And then he was wearing some sort of bandana face mask kind of hanging around his neck.
Was it covering or concealing his face at that point in time? No, I don't believe so. Do you recall any of the officers, or specifically you yourself, did you observe Mr. Kerr before? The dog engaged with him?
I could see that there was something or someone in the grass. I wasn't able to make any observations or identify somebody specifically in the grass, especially where the canine had indicated. The canine doesn't indicate for that general area. He was very specific on there was somebody laying right there in the grass. After the handcuffs were placed on Mr. Cater, where did you go with him?
We had assisted him off the ground. We had never walked him. Yeah, the previous photo. We had walked him over to this clearing area right here. This is Exhibit 1, App 6. Just on this side of the tall grass or wheelie area. I was on one arm. I believe I was on his right side. I believe it was Deputy Miller that would have been on his left side then.
And his hands being behind his back, we were able to kind of carry him underneath his arms, underneath his shoulders, and carry him to that area. He was upright, but he wasn't exactly walking on his own power at that point. And what happened when he got out into that clearing? Looked him over for injuries, asked him if he needed rescue if he had injuries.
I don't remember any straightforward responses. I think there was some incoherent mumbling that came from him. But there were no obvious signs of injury other than that left thigh hip area that that pal had engaged him on.
Were you involved in any search or processing of Mr. Kerr at that scene? No, I had actually turned him over.
There were Green Bay PD officers that were arriving on scene. I believe there were Green Bay PD officers that arrived on scene. We kind of handed him off, the suspect, over to the officers at the time just because...
For me personally, it was something that I had just been involved in finding him and it was that high stress situation where we hand him off to another officer and they can perform the search and follow up that's needed.
Did you have an opportunity to observe the suspect's face?
I remember his face being almost like he got in a fight. I think he had like a fat lip or bruising around his mouth. He had long blonde hair kind of disheveled like he had been hiding in the woods. Didn't appear as though he had just cleaned up and had walked out of the house.
All right. After handing him off to the Green Bay police officers, do you have any further involvement at that point? Not in that case, no. Thank you.
No further questions at this time.
Thank you. Mr. Cotton?
Good afternoon, sir. You were present when Mr. Kayer was found in the tall grass there on that picture, right? Correct. Do you know how he got to that tall grass? I do not. Do you know whether he walked there under his own power or whether somebody else brought him there? I do not. You never saw him go there, it would be fair to say. Correct.
And you talked about, I think you used the phrase incoherent mumbling. Did I hear that correctly? Correct. Who was making incoherent mumbling? Mr. Taylor. When did that happen?
That would have been once we had made physical contact with him, once we had taken him into custody, there were simple questions that I had asked as far as what is your name, and I didn't get a coherent response from him. Can you elaborate what it sounded like?
I wouldn't be able to replicate it. I don't know what it would have sounded like. Okay, so not actual words you could even make out. Correct. Okay, so when you say mumbling, you're not sure what was even coming out of his mouth. Correct. And you said you could tell that his face looked like he had been in a fight. Did you say that?
I don't know what my exact words were there, if he had been in a fight. But it looked like, like you said, he had a fat lip. He had... He wasn't, his fat lip, he was sweating. It wasn't like he was clean cut just walking out of the house.
A fat lip would be consistent with somebody being struck in the face or the head, fair to say? Did you examine his body with your, did you do any physical examination to see whether he had any lumps or bruises on his head?
No.
You just saw the fat lip and the disheveled appearance? Right. Would it be fair to say there was no drugs or contraband located on Mr. Kayer in that area? Not that I saw. And the observations of Kayer, you noticed that his jeans were torn, and you attribute that to the dog biting him, right? Correct. Okay, because you saw the dog engage with him. Correct.
When Mr. Kayer was found in that area there, I'm assuming you were walking up to that location. Is that fair to say? When he was found in the grass? Yeah. It kind of threw the woods. Okay. And did you ever at any point see him running?
No.
Okay. You saw him laying there? Correct. Would it be fair to describe him as passive in a way in terms of how you found him? Yes. No active resistance? No.
Besides initially not showing us his hands, actively trying to hide his hands or keep them underneath his body, once the canine engaged with him and we were able to see his hands, after that he never fought with us. He didn't show any other kind of active resistance towards us.
Got it. He wasn't struggling with the officers. Right. And in terms of him laying there with his hands... You can't say what he did or didn't hear. Would you agree with that? Correct. Okay. So K.R. is laying there in the grass. The dog bites him and he pulls his hands out. Fair to say? For the most part, yes. Okay. And there's no weapon in his hands, right? Correct.
And you can see that because you're looking with your own eyes, right? Correct. And then that's when you go hands-on and start handcuffing him. Correct. And as you are handcuffing him, he's not twisting around trying to get you off of him or get away, right? Correct. So he complies with that process, would be fair to say? Yes, sir. And then you did do a report in this case, didn't you, sir?
Yes, sir. And you had a chance to review it before your testimony today? Yes, sir. Okay. Fair to say your report is an accurate summary of what took place? Yes, sir. You described Mr. K or do you not as partially walk under his own power. Did you use that expression? In my report? Yeah. I believe that's what it says in my report, yes.
The male suspect was conscious and breathing and would only partially walk under his own power. Yes, sir. Is that accurate? Yes. Can you explain what that phrase means, partially walk under his own power?
Yeah, I remember his legs being underneath him, as I had described, me being on his right-hand side. My left arm was kind of hooked underneath his shoulder, his right shoulder.
sort of strength or power to keep him up from from either collapsing back down on the ground falling back down on the ground and get him moving out into the the field itself he didn't stand he wouldn't have been able to stand unsupported on his own okay these things that you observed mumbling incoherently
One or more injuries to the face, disheveled appearance, partially walking under his own power. Would you agree with me that those things are consistent with somebody who suffered a head injury? Potentially. As a deputy, you've responded to accidents where people have had such injuries, right? Potentially, yes.
Okay, thank you.
Any additional questions, Mr. Lassay?
Deputy, you also had an opportunity to come into contact with suspects who are not fully cooperative with you when you're attempting to arrest them and move them. Is that fair to say? Yes, sir. The same types of behaviors, like not walking under his own power and not choosing to fully cooperate with officers, is that also consistent with a non-cooperative suspect? Yes, sir.
Were you able to specifically determine which was the case during this incident?
No.
Thank you. No further questions. Thank you.
All right. Thank you. You may step down.
Police!
Do not move.
Put the gun away.
Put the taser away.
I got one.
Put the taser away.
Put the taser away. Stop resisting! Stop resisting!
All right.
Lay on your stomach.
Put your hand behind your back.
All right.
All right.
All right.
All right.
All right.
All right.
Did you have a witness to call?
I do have another witness prepared, yes. Okay. I would say we'll call Deputy Miller. Eric Miller, M-U-E-L-L-E-R. Deputy Miller, can you state for the record how you are employed?
I work for the Brown County Sheriff's Department. I've been there a little over seven years.
And what is your current position with the Sheriff's Department? I'm a patrol deputy. Were you working in your capacity as a patrol deputy with the Sheriff's Department on June 7, 2016? Yes, I was. Shortly after 8 p.m., were you dispatched to a call in the village of Hobart? Yes, I was. On Riverdale Drive? Correct. Do you know what time the dispatch came out? I believe it was around 8.13 p.m.
And what was the nature of the call based on the information provided to you by dispatch?
It came out as a weapons call. There was a male with a knife and there were multiple people that were stabbed.
Deputy, when you arrived on scene, were there other officers present? Yes, there was. Who was present when you arrived?
Deputy Dermbach was first on scene, and then I arrived shortly after, and then Deputy Raska arrived shortly after me. Do you know if there were officers from other departments on scene as well? There was from Hobart Lawrence and Oneida PD.
When you arrived on scene, what did you do?
I was advised to start the approach with Deputy Raska. We were on the east side of the residence and approached to the north.
As you made your approach toward the residence, what did you observe?
We then approached to the back door of this residence, which the lights were on. We knocked multiple times, but there was no one home. No one came to the door. What did you do after that? I then walked to the rescue squad that was parked in the driveway right here, and then I was approached by the complainant, Joel Kennedy.
Joel had walked to your location?
He did. And did you speak with him at all? I did for a short time. I was asking the description of the suspect, which he stated the guy's name was Jake. He was wearing blue jeans, a dark-colored T-shirt. And he had long brown hair. Did you make any observations of Joel's person?
I noticed that he was holding his left hand, and I believe he was applying pressure to a wound that he had on his left arm, which was bleeding heavily. Were you there to provide any assistance to him? I did not. Shortly after he gave me the description, rescue personnel attended him, and then Deputy Reese arrived and went with rescue and Joel.
After you spoke briefly with Joel, then what did you do?
I was then asked by Sergeant Lowell that Deputy Dermbach needed another deputy or two for a track in which I walked to the west of the tree line and I met with Deputy Dermbach, Deputy Roscoe, and I believe an Oneida officer in the corner of the residence, the northwest corner.
So you indicate you walked up the tree line on the left side of the driveway to the left side of the back of the residence where you met with the other officers? Correct. Do you know if Deputy Dernbach had already been conducting a track at that point in time?
From what I was told, I believe he was, and he was about to head into the tree line, which is where he stopped and waited for more officers. So you arrived to assist him? Yes, I did.
What did you do once you arrived with Deputy Dernbach?
I was providing lethal cover on his left side as we approached into the tree line with the canine.
About how long after you arrived by Deputy Durenbach to provide cover did you ultimately locate an individual?
It wasn't very long. From what I recall, we were going straight north, and then the canine flirted to the left, and then shortly after that is when we engaged the suspect. Did you see the suspect prior to the canine engaging with him?
I did not. What are your observations when the K-9 engages?
At that point, officers started giving commands. We tactically approached the individual. Deputy Raska obtained suspect's left arm, and then I went and took custody of his right arm, and then he was placed in a handcuffs eventually. Was the male cooperative with your commands? He was not.
He was not showing his hands at first, and it took a little bit of him resisting before we got him into custody.
After the male was placed in custody and the handcuffs were on him, what happened then?
We then walked him out to a clearing, which is where he was searched, patted down, and then we brought him from there to the rescue squad that was waiting on Camelot Court. Did you assist in bringing him to the clearing? I was walking with him, yes.
Did you make any observations of the defendant's person as he was walking to the clearing?
I know that he was very muddy, very dirty, appeared to be soaked in blood. Blue jeans are very dirty and ripped. He also had some sort of a black mask that was around his neck that appeared to be soaked in blood as well.
I'm showing you what's been marked as Exhibit 1G6. Can you identify that photograph?
That appears to be the area that the suspect was taken into custody. And at the top of that photograph, what can you observe sort of near the top of the photograph? This would have been the way that we walked out to the clearing.
And then Exhibit 1G7, can you identify that photograph?
That would be briefly where we stopped and some items were taken off of him.
And then we continued walking to the Camelot Court. So you believe he was the area where the cone indicates and there's sort of a pile of things. You think that's the area where he was searching and items were taken off of him? Correct. Did you do that or is that a different? I did not. But you were present when that happened? Correct. From that location, where was he taken?
We walked to Camelot Court. Do not know the specific address, but it was down at Camelot Court where a rescue was waiting.
How was he acting when you were transporting him to the rescue?
He wasn't walking fully on his own. The officer had to assist him with walking him to rescue.
Were you able to gauge whether that was because he was not cooperative or whether he had any injuries or concerns? I do not recall. I also want to talk to you about your observations of his clothing. What do you remember that he was wearing?
Blue jeans, a dark-colored T-shirt, and he at some point had a bandage or a rag wrapped around one of his hands or fingers, and then that black face mask was around his neck. Was a concealer covering his face when you had contact with him? Not when we made contact, no.
You made observations of them being dirty or blood-soaked, is that right? Correct. At some point in time, did you actually come into contact with that clothing?
I did, yes. How did that happen? At some point, I believe it was a Green Bay officer handed me the bag of the shirt and pants that were cut off by rescue, along with some other items, a watch, a belt, and that blood-soaked rag was also handed over to me. What did you do with those items? Held on to them.
I rode with rescue to the hospital, and they stayed in my possession until I later entered into evidence at the Sheriff's Department.
You mentioned that you rode with rescue to the hospital.
Where were you physically located? I would have been sitting in the seat directly behind the cot that's in the back of the ambulance. So you were in the ambulance with Mr. Kerr? Correct.
Did you make any observations of Mr. Kerr while he was being transported by rescue?
He was making some statements in the back of the ambulance. Comments such as, fucking rapist. Why didn't you fucking kill me? Ike, where is he?
They... Can you describe the nature of the comments? I mean, obviously, you talked about the words that he used, but what was his tone of voice like? What was his speech pattern, things like that?
I would say a lot of yelling, screaming, not making a lot of sense with what he was saying. Who else was in the rescue squad with you? There was three rescue personnel, I believe a McKenzie Teske, an Olson, and I do not recall the... Third individual. Were you the only officer who was in there? Yes, I was. And then what happened when you arrived on scene at the hospital?
Once we arrived, Deputy Neurath had been following us from the scene all the way to the hospital. And at that point, when the doors opened, he was behind with the squad iPhone and he began a video recording. What did you do after you arrived at the hospital and Deputy Neurath began filming? I followed them. We went into the ER, into a room where staff attended to him.
What was your role on scene at that point? Basically just standing by, still holding on to that evidence, begging it. Did you make additional observations of the defendant while he was at the hospital? Still making a lot of weird comments, kind of yelling, screaming a little bit yet.
At some point did his demeanor change while he was at the hospital? Not while I was there, no. You indicated that you had responsibility for the clothing. What did you end up doing with the clothing that had been cut off the defendant?
We had bagged it, and then we had later replaced it into the evidence at the sheriff's department, which being that it was still soaked in blood, we put it in the drying chamber. Who was we? Me and Deputy Neurath. Did you do that together?
Yes, we did. And that was at the Brown County Sheriff's Office? Correct. Describe what it is to put something in the drying chamber.
Basically, you're taking the clothes out of the bag that it was first put in, putting it on a rack, putting it in this drying chamber, turning it on, locking it, and then I later put the key into evidence.
As you were putting those clothes in the drying chamber, were you able to make specific observations of the clothing itself?
Still notice that was very dirty, torn. Face mask, it was a black face mask with a skeleton design on the front. And then there was two holes cut out where your eyes would potentially be. No further questions at this time.
Thank you.
Mr. Cotton? Good afternoon. So, you had, as I understand it, been present in the ambulance when Mr. Kerr was transported to the hospital? Correct. And that's when the state was asking you about things that you heard. One of the things I think you said was, Ike, where is he? Correct. What does that mean? I have no idea.
had you been asking something about had you brought anything up to trigger that type of comment i did not would we call these spontaneous utterances in a way you could say that sure okay i guess what i'm asking is was law enforcement engaging with mr care in the ambulance or were these just things that were coming out of his mouth just things that were coming out of his mouth
You had said, I think, not making a lot of sense. Is that a fair way to describe it? Correct. Did any of it make any sense to you? From the time of the ambulance, no. Okay. And then the ambulance, how long would you say the ambulance ride to the hospital took? 15 minutes. And was Mr. Keir the whole 15 minutes just making statements, or were there periods of time where he was quiet?
I would say there was periods of time where he was quiet. Like I said, the statements that I have in my report are the ones that I remember him saying.
Did you have a recording of any of the statements that were made? I did not. No body cam on you? No. And you didn't use a personal phone or department phone to capture any of that, did you? No. So when you write the statements in your report, it's after you're done with your work, you went and typed the report and put the statements in there, right? Correct.
And then Mr. Lassay asked you about Mr. Kerr at the hospital. You did see him in the hospital, right? Correct. So were you one of the officers or deputies who was present from the transfer out of the ambulance into the operating room? Were you present during that? Correct. And you made a statement just a few minutes ago that at the hospital there was, quote, lots of weird comments.
Is that your testimony? Yes. I don't recall saying weird comments. Okay. How would you describe the statements Mr. Kerr was making at the hospital? Statements that weren't making much sense. Okay, so you don't think you said the phrase weird comments, but we can say not making sense? Correct. Okay. Not logical? Correct. And you said Mr. Kerr's demeanor did not change while he was at the hospital.
What did you mean by that?
From the time that I was with him at the hospital, I wouldn't say that he... I mean, there's times where he would stop talking. But the comments that he was saying just wasn't making sense.
Okay, in the same vein of Ike, where is he, fucking rapist, those types of things. Correct. Okay. Okay, that's all.
Any additional questions, Mr. Lucek? No, sir.