Excerpts from interviews of Ted Bundy as well as court proceedings including Bundy testifying regarding admissibility of evidence about the search of his car in Utah, and the sentencing of Bundy from the judge.Chapters are approximate as they don't account for ads:00:00:00 Ted Bundy phone call with prison psychologist00:15:03 Interview with journalists March 1977 at the Glenwood Springs CO jail00:39:54 News report about the trial and evidence00:41:48 News report about Bundy taking the stand00:43:21 Bundy questioned by his attorney00:58:20 Prosecutor questions Sergeant Hayward00:59:45 Bundy questions Hayward01:01:05 Bundy makes the case to suppress the evidence01:07:48 News report, Bundy's mother, jury decision01:08:52 Judge hands down the death sentenceSupport:For $3 a month, you can support this show on Patreon, in return you will receive ad free, early, and bonus episodes:https://www.patreon.com/crimeatoriumFor one time or recurring donations:http://Ko-fi.com/crimeatoriumIf you like the podcast, please share it on social media and with friends, and take a minute to leave a review for Crimeatorium on Spotify, Podchaser or Apple Podcasts.Contact:[email protected]:https://www.speakpipe.com/CrimeatoriumThank you for listening!Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/crimeatorium9009/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy
because all the sheriff's department calls it tape doesn't bother me they you always figure they know everything anyway yeah how are you doing i'm doing pretty good ted how are you doing well i'm hanging in there i uh i just got the bug last week and uh wanted just wanted to chat with you briefly because we have been away for a long time yeah right and uh right how are things going for you over there uh well quite well quite frankly uh i was just talking to someone the other day and
And the experience of coming over here is one of those, you know, those good things, bad things. I wouldn't, you know, if I hadn't come over here, I probably wouldn't be looking at a new trial in the Carol Durange case. Yeah. And a whole bunch of, a whole number of things have opened up.
And I suppose that, you know, if I have to spend several years behind bars, I might as well spend a little here, a little there.
Get a little variety, huh?
Right, right.
Yeah. Yeah.
Are they treating you pretty good? Well, yeah. Yeah, sure they are. That's good. They've developed this paranoia about me. They have this unrealistic fear that I'm going to escape or something. I can't imagine where they're getting that. Yes, exactly. Let's see. I just wanted to call you up. You know, mainly there's a lot of A lot of things have been happening.
You know, the escape adventure, which caused a great furor of activity around here, and I guess some publicity over there. And now we're looking at what looks like a 95% chance of a new trial in the Carol Drange case. And while this case over here gets curiouser and curiouser because...
They've added a couple of additional Utah transactions, alleged transactions, in their attempt to gain a conviction in the Colorado case. I don't know. I've been so overwhelmed by work recently that, you know, there's just a lot to do. But, you know, way back when, when I was This was back in April when I decided to represent myself in this case.
I could just... I was just thinking to myself, I could hear Al big. Yeah, yeah, I knew we tried to do something like that. Yeah, I knew you would. Well, I remember one time you come in. I can't remember whether it was something I read in your report. I think it may have been something I read in one of your reports, quite frankly. That I can't... Delegate responsibility or something to that effect.
I don't know. I don't think it's exactly where you put it, but... Yeah, I can't remember anything. But something more or less that I like to, you know, do things myself and have a hard time entrusting things to others. I can't remember how you say it. Yeah, it's an achievement. I'm not sure.
Anyway, I was just wondering, I know you're really at arm's length on this thing, and, you know, we haven't really... know taught personally obviously since the latter part of january yeah right impressions about all that you've been hearing about the me and and okay how do you mean well like the escape and everything I wonder what your impression of that was.
Just, again, just from a part of you who knows me but who didn't have an opportunity to speak to me either just before or after that happened.
Yeah, right. Yeah, this is something that'd be fun to sit down and chat with you about an hour. Yeah. And, uh... Uh... I had mixed impressions. I was wondering if you were really getting uptight and the pressure looked like it was on, you know? And I was wondering if it was, uh... getting looked like in your mind that you were going to be convicted.
So when the opportunity was there and you just took it, believe, you know, I'd like to have been able to sit down with you before and after to see, you know, just to see what was happening. Yeah. What, uh, you know, in your own mind, what was, what was happening? What was the reason for it? You know,
I'd given it a great deal of thought. I'd been moved from Aspen, been in the Aspen, the Pitkin County Jail, which is in Aspen, from January 31st until April the 11th, which is 73 days. I have all this memorized, you know. And in Aspen, I was an open affair. The jail is very small. It's 24, 5, 6, 7 cells, and...
uh you know and all the doors are open all the time the place has been built in 1887 but it was just you know here is where i could come out we could relate to talk to other prisoners go in their cell you know something like at the state prison not like me in the main line and then they moved me down here this is part of the escape because i was a security risk and they put me in a 6 by 12 by 8 foot high cell and ordered no one to speak to me
And quite frankly, that's when I decided to represent myself. At least I got to, you know, get out to go to the library, you know. There's only situations where, you know, concrete, solid steel door with a little window and the food slot. I mean, this was worse than the hole. Honestly, Al, this was worse than the hole. Yeah. In Max, because there you can at least talk to people and see people.
And it's worse than Max because they never let, they have to exercise except for the six days I was out on an escape since the 11th of April. So this was building up and building up and building up. And over the months, I'd noticed a number of opportunities to just walk right out. Walk right out, but I didn't know quite how to put it all together.
As you say, I was very concerned about what people would think. And I didn't, you know, people would say, weren't you afraid that someone would shoot you or something? No, it was one of the lower fears in my...
higher years yeah but I don't know that day I came there and I thought a great deal about escape and I didn't know if I had the guts to do it quite frankly and the guard went outside for a smoke and there's not a one person in the whole courtroom you think you'll have to you'd have to see the courthouse and the windows are open and the fresh air is blowing through and the sky was blue and
And I said, I'm ready to go. And I walked out the window and jumped out. And I started chugging. And I had no plan. I had nobody helping me. I had no money. I had no nothing. Just ran right up into the mountains. But anyway, you know, when I was captured, recaptured, they brought me back in.
I spoke very freely about my adventures during those six days because it was something I really couldn't deny. But So one of the investigators, Bill Wargase, came into the room after I'd been there for some time and said, well, would you like to talk about the Campbell case? Would you like to tell me all about it now, Ted? You know, more or less, would you want to confess and all this stuff?
Because, I mean, I could see the twinkle in his eyes that, you know, he thought that I panicked and now the jig was up and I was ready to bust open. And I told him, I said, Mike, listen, I jumped out of the window because I want to be free.
uh you know two years ago i could have walked out of a courthouse and uh you know no one would charge me with any crime no one would even have noticed i you know as far as i was concerned i was just what belonged to me and it wasn't a fear of conviction it wasn't you know because i believe then that i believe more firmly now and i will be acquitted and and not only that but i'll get a new trial and derange the iran the irony of it all al is probably the only
offense that they that they will ever get a solid conviction on me will be the escape yeah right but uh you know i told him honest honest to god i i just got sick and tired of being locked up and i thought you know because way back then i knew that i had this new evidence on durant although i hadn't given anybody yet wondering what to do with it and i knew that the case for me here was good that the case they had was weak but i kept saying to myself
Ted, in the event that you're acquitted here in Colorado, and you go back to Utah, and let's say you get a new trial in Durant, which I estimate would take three years, because even if we win at the trial court level with a new trial, the state will appeal, and if the Supreme Court overturns, we'll have to go to the federal court, and the federal courts take years and years.
And even if I get a new trial in Durant, three years from... There was a chance I could be convicted just basically on the publicity of the whole thing. I mean, I'm pretty notorious. And if I was acquitted three, four years from now in Durant's case, what would I have left? It may be unrealistically, but I asked myself, could you go to law school? Could you live?
Would your friends be able to look you in the eye? Could you be Ted Bundy again? I figured, you know, whether you're free tomorrow or whether you're free four years from now, you're still going to have to make an entirely new life and really hide from your old life, whether you would legitimately or illegitimately. So those were the priorities then. And I wasn't up against the wall.
I mean, it was something I could have done then, something I could have waited to do. But it was just, I honestly just fed, you know, way up above my chin with being the,
being locked up right yeah just one of those things yeah but uh still there's still the scars and the blisters of my feet i'm sitting here barefoot from running around in the mountains extraordinary experience because i i had thought that i was i mean a pretty strong-willed person but you know believe it or not it was the body that was strong but the mind that was weak that the morning after
Well, I ran up, you know, like 4,000 feet of very steep hills. Actually, Aspen was on the other side. They didn't know where in the world I was. And I was feeling really good that evening, and I started hiking up. And if I had kept on hiking, I would have been long gone. But a very cold sleet and rainstorm hit me, and I got very cold. Then I went into a state of shock and managed to find a cabin.
And the cabin was just, you know, there was no way to get into it. And here it was shivering and hungry and cold. It was raining and blowing. And early the next morning, like 7 o'clock in the morning, and I was just sitting there, seriously considering giving myself up. And it was just a complete mind blow for me. Yeah. Just longed for freedom for so long.
And now, like I was living my ultimate dream, all of a sudden I was willing to throw it away because I was cold and hungry. And I said, my Lord. But I got in the cabin and recuperated, believe it or not, and had a second chance at it. And then I made the wrong turn, and then I hurt my knee, and three, four days of high altitude and cold got to me. And again, my mind got weak.
And it really kind of, again, when I was recaptured, I just stood there. I mean, I was just, that night, I walked back into Aspen. No one knew me. People got me. No one could recognize me. But I just was totally disoriented. It was like an experience I'd never known before. I just laid down like an animal ready to die. It was just an incredible experience.
I was disoriented, and quite frankly, I hopped in a car and just drove. I knew I'd get caught. I mean, I didn't want to get caught, but I knew it would happen, but I was just so tired. The best of the alternatives. Yeah, and I just said, well... just to see what happens. And a fluke, actually, they stopped me. But, you know, anyway, that was one of the more profound experiences.
Yes, sounds like it. Of being over here.
Certainly did cause a furor. Mm-hmm. And you're spending most of your afternoons in the law library, are you? Oh, yeah.
I go up there every day for three hours. Huh. And... Imagine you're really learning law. Oh, goodness sakes. Yeah, I'm pretty darn good at the soul process. I won a couple fairly significant victories on Friday. Let's see, I go last Friday in court. And I suppose that I've learned that I've learned what the pitfalls of being one, of representing oneself are, and so I'm going to avoid those.
But for the time being, I am doing a great, I am doing the, in the case, and the research. And I think we're pretty successful at, I don't know, considering the kinds of resources that are amassed against me and the, you know, the various law enforcement agencies and
prosecutors who are working on this case uh i think i'm more than holding my own i think i'm giving him fits quite frankly and and i don't it's not just me i mean i'm not here i'm not you know uh i'm not some genius or anything i think but the fact the matter is you know such a rather decrepit case that they're really having a hard time uh putting it together, to say the least.
And at the preliminary hearing, she looked at me and she looked around the courtroom and picked an undersheriff as the person she had seen.
So their case kind of collapsed at that point. Oh, yeah. But right now they're, you know, they're hanging in there. I give them credit for that. Yeah. Yeah. So how are things over there? I've always wondered about you and a lot of my friends there and everything. I heard there was a killing not too long ago.
We got to wear jeans and blue shirts.
Is your family back to see you?
Not as yet. It's a rather expensive trip. Aspen's an expensive place to stay.
Your mom's still up in Washington? Yeah. Pardon?
We plan to have her, I plan to have her down here sometime in June.
First of all, I guess I should just ask, how are you doing up here?
It's a short question deserving a long answer. I'm doing well. I feel good. Working hard on my case. Need a lot more sun and a lot more Fresh air, but other than that, I'm doing OK.
Do you get fresh air some? Do you get out?
Well, I get to go to the library. It's a 50-yard walk from here across the parking lot to the library. That's my fresh air.
Do you have more freedom at Utah State Prison?
Well, when I was on the main line, as they say, in medium security, I had a lot more freedom, you bet. A big yard to walk in, and a basketball court, and handball court. Your standard medium security life in a prison is a fairly decent existence, relatively speaking, to a county jail. County jails are, by and large, pretty confined and inhibiting sort of places.
Why did you decide to defend yourself?
I began thinking about that way back in Utah. I had a year to study criminal law in action. And I'm a very biased person. I have a lot of strong opinions about how things should be done. And when I came here, I think that my opinions were established to the point where the method that my tyrannies wished to impose here and my own did not agree. And we couldn't coexist.
And theirs were right for them, and mine are going to be right for me. I have the greatest amount of confidence, at least in the preparation stage, that my ideas will work. And believe me, I'm not standing here alone. I'm just called a habit as an attorney friend of mine today. Every day I get input. Every day I ask questions. But the reason I went on my own is because I just felt it was time.
I felt it was right. I wanted to get involved. I wanted to become a part of my defense because I am such a part of it. I mean, obviously, I'm going to bear the consequences, so why not bear the responsibility of seeking my own acquittal and sustaining my own innocence?
Ted, when you left Salt Lake, when you were extradited, you issued a statement saying you feel that everything will turn out all right, that you are innocent. Do you still feel that?
That, yeah, more than ever. Of course, you can't help... but become an advocate for yourself when you're so involved in the case. And being a good defense attorney, and again, I'm not pretending I'm an attorney, but putting yourself in a position of being your own counsel, it's that positive psychology. You're going to do it. You're going to do it because you're right.
You're going to do it because the person you're representing is innocent. It just happens to be, in this case, I've got a lot at stake, and the person I'm representing is myself, and I'm working all the harder. Yeah, I feel good about it, and yes, I feel that I'm right, and yes, I feel I'm going to make it. No doubt in my mind.
There's always one thing that amazed me, as you know. I covered your trial, and I was there every day. When the judge found you guilty of second-degree kidnapping, you never showed any emotion. Yeah. For somebody who believes he is so innocent, why was there no emotion?
My attorney, John O'Connell, in Salt Lake, and I've always mused over just how I should behave. What's the right way for Ted Bundy to behave and make sure that people get the right impression? And I just behaved the way I felt was right. Okay, let me take the day of March 1st, 1976, the day that the judge rendered his verdict in my case first. I didn't show any emotion because...
You know, what am I supposed to do? Am I going to jump up on the table? Am I going to scream? That's what I felt like doing. I heard my mother crying. It's an emotional time. I don't even like to think of that day.
But I wasn't going to give these people who went out and built a case around a non-existent eyewitness, an eyewitness identification that was built by the police, I wasn't going to give them the satisfaction of seeing me break down. And sure I may, and I'm showing emotion right now because inside I may. But I've kept it together because there's no point in destroying myself.
I have got to keep myself together. I have got to stay calm. I've got to keep my presence of mind because as long as I do that, I'm going to beat these people. And that's the way I feel. I showed no emotion. I felt emotion. Believe me. Now... When Carol DeRosh, the kidnapping victim from Utah, came to testify in this preliminary hearing here, I was beside myself with rage.
She is turning into a professional witness as far as I'm concerned. She is a prosecution witness. And when I heard her go through that routine that I had heard three times before, I had restrained myself every time. I couldn't do it this time. And I told my attorney, I said, I'm going to get
inches long now and i felt it he pulled me down he says listen he says you can't do that that's okay but i had to do it for once for once they had to do it and do you know something people say ted bundy didn't show any emotion there must be something in there i showed emotion you know what people said see you really can't get violent and angry uh there's no white right way for me to act i act and i don't care what people think about how i act i act
according to the way I think is right and best for me at the time. I'm not going to try to please people or impress people, because quite frankly, the amount of bias and prejudice that surrounds me as a media image, I can't begin to tear down. Not with this interview or a hundred interviews.
Ted, do you believe, I'm a person from the media, other people here, do you believe that we created you, that it's our fault that we created this image of The mass murder, is that what you're saying to us?
Well, I think in the course of doing the job you did, not in a malign way, not in a personal vendetta against me, but in the course of publishing the material and broadcasting the material coming out of the Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office or the Salt Lake County Prosecutor's Office, you began... to plant the seed in people's minds.
Now, that may be your constitutional right and duty, as well as your livelihood. But I think in the process, you did create a media image of me that's far beyond the reality of me.
Was John O'Connell called the Bundy Monster?
That's what he called it. I suggested it John, we ought to get Mattel to make little dogs that walk and say, I'm the Bundy monster.
Ted, let me ask you this. You totally believe you're innocent. Mm-hmm. I'm not questioning that. My question to you is, how did it come to be that Ted Bundy could be involved in some of these things and has now been charged, convicted once, is now facing first-degree murder charges? Mm-hmm. And as you know, he was being suspected in other murders. How did Ted Bundy come out?
Where did he come from?
That's a very long story, and I really can't... If I knew the answers to that question, I wouldn't be sitting here right now. I'd be back in Salt Lake with a new trial. And one day I'll have those answers, and one day I'll have a new trial. But I don't know why. I can't begin to understand why. I know that there's a lot of... Police ego on the line.
I know that a lot of men in the detective's division, Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office jobs are on the line. I know that a long time ago it ceased to be an issue as to whether or not I was innocent or guilty. The issue is now is can we pin it on him? Can we follow through and maintain our reputation as law enforcement officers?
And I'll tell you, as long as they attempt to keep their heads in the sand about me, there's going to be people turning up in canyons, and there's going to be people being shot in Salt Lake City because the police there aren't willing to accept what I think they know, and they know that I didn't do these things. Okay.
Okay. Then how do you exist every day? How do you keep your sound? Well, um... How are you keeping your sound? You're a young man. You're intelligent, obviously. Obviously. How do you stay in that little cell and stay sane?
They gave me a year's training course in that. From March 1st of 76 until I was expedited to Colorado, I was locked up. I had a lot of time to work on being locked up. It wasn't easy at first, but now it's easy. I mean, they made me hard inside, and I can spend time in there. I don't like it. I'll never like it, and I'll never accept it.
But I can deal with it because I know how to, let's say... Have you trained your mind? Train the mind. Is that the word I was going to use? It's not exactly training your mind. It's just creating your own environment in here. And not looking at the ceiling, not looking at the wall, and not thinking about the outside, and not anguishing over the fact that you've lost your freedom.
But simply in here, simply knowing that some freedom... I mean, I live 24 hours a day in that thing, except when I go to the library. What did you say?
Is it 6 by 12?
OK.
Let's do it.
Let's take it up here more.
OK.
How does this compare to the Utah State Prison?
6.30.
Exercise? I walk about two miles a day. inside 880 laps. I haven't been following your case that closely, but you'll have to agree you're the target of a great deal of mystery, and you said earlier macabre interest. Why?
You'll have to admit there's a hell of a lot of circumstantial evidence, at least circumstantial, it seems to somebody who has read
simply read newspapers and articles.
No, I won't admit that. No, it's not circumstantial as far as I'm concerned. I don't really know exactly what you're referring to, and I don't really want to discuss it. But I don't care what anybody says or the suspicions anyone harbors on the basis of that misinformation. And indeed, that's what I call it, circumstantial information perhaps, but misinformation as far as I'm concerned.
A lot of people trying to pin a lot of stuff on somebody because, you know, it's convenient. But... You think you've been set up? Well, I don't think there's any broad scheme, but I think one begins to... I would have to infer that based on some of the police activity. I think following November of 75, you'd have to say that there was a general...
design amongst police officers in several jurisdictions to do whatever they could. And I think a statement recently made by a sheriff in Utah County, I believe, he said that he walked out in some of those meetings because it was just clear that they had one thing on their mind and they were going to do anything to prove it. And I think this trial will show exactly what they've done.
I'm not going to sit here and say people have perjured themselves, but I think that will come out. Are you angry? Sure, I get angry. I get very, very angry and indignant.
I don't like being locked up for something I didn't do, and I don't like my liberty taken away, and I don't like being treated like an animal, and I don't like people walking around and ogling me like I'm some sort of weirdo, because I'm not. I'm perfectly happy with the person I am, and I've always been happy.
I mean, yeah, I don't pay my telephone bills on time, and I don't write my mother as many letters as I should. There are all kinds of things I can improve about myself, but a weirdo knows I feel good about myself. I'm happy with myself. You don't change. You stay Ted Bundy 24 hours a day. Well, gee, that name sounds funny. You know, I hear Ted Bundy in so many different contexts. I stay me.
Okay, I've matured in the past year. Believe me, I've grown in the past year, and I've learned a lot of things about myself in the past year. Being in prison, going through a kind of hell, matures a person, and I think it's done good things for me. My only misgiving is that I might never be in a position to apply it, you know, on the streets where I'd like to apply it.
do you ever think when you're in that cell about the possibility that you could one day face a firing squad they don't have firing squads in colorado and i don't think that in any event that i ever think i don't think about it honest to god now and i've been asked that question before and i'm going to give you pat answer if you don't mind when you did you fly over here from Yes.
Did it worry you all the way over that you might be killed in a plane crash? No. Are you thinking about it now, going back? Same here. I think I stand about as much chance of dying in front of a firing squad or in a gas chamber as you do being killed in a plane flight home. Let's hope you don't. So you don't lie awake at night thinking about it? Not a moment. Honest to God, not a moment.
Because it's not going to happen. Are you going to be a free man? Do you think that about being a free man? Sure. Yeah.
And you think when I say there is circumstantial evidence that I'm in left field, there isn't circumstantial evidence?
I know there isn't. You're dealing on the outside, I'm on the inside. I mean, you have access to information, but I'm on the inside. I know what's there and I know what isn't there. I've seen the files and I've heard the reports. And Lord knows I'm the first and foremost person who has the personal intimate knowledge that it couldn't be me, that it's not me, that I'm innocent.
Dealing from that on out, I know exactly what's what. And when you tell me the circumstantial evidence, I'm not going to argue with you, Lucky. It's just, let's just wait and let's just let it come out in court. Let's let it be examined in open court. And I'll lay my money on me. That's the way I feel. Do you think about getting out of here? Well, legally, sure.
With the rumors that have gone on about you, and you're more aware of them than I am, how have you been treated in prison by other inmates?
Well, I think you may... Has it made your life more difficult or more dangerous being in prison? I think you may be more aware of the rumors than I am. For this reason, I have heard a lot of talk, and there might be an inmate ex who says, you know, Bundy's this and that kind of person.
But you know, when I'm confronted person to person by these people, or by people in general, I have never, I have never been accused, I have never been assaulted, I have never been verbally abused. And the reason is because I hold my head high, I believe in myself, and I treat every man with the respect that he deserves. And that's the way you get along in prison.
One of the many ways you get along in the joint is that you treat a man with respect, that you don't try to hustle somebody, that you come across straight to him. One of the first things you learn is that if you're a straight con and you keep your mouth shut and you keep tight with good people, you're going to stay out of trouble. And it doesn't make any difference what you've done.
What happens if you're in prison five years and nothing like what has happened in the past happens again?
I mean, any of the things that you have been accused of by innuendo, by rumor, by the police departments or whatever, what if there are no killings or no kidnappings? It's already happened, hasn't it?
I've heard some reports. I remember the incidents between 5 and 8, which are similar to the ones which the police have had the nerve to try to associate with me. It's going to continue to happen in Salt Lake and Utah until those police start to wise up and stop counting their chickens before they hatch.
I think it's a terribly dangerous mentality to try to pin something on somebody who they believe there's a possibility couldn't have done it. And as long as they believe that, they're not going to find the right man. And the man who kidnapped Carol Durant is going to continue to be free.
And not only her, but every other young woman in the Salt Lake Valley is going to be threatened by that person or persons. And it's happening today and it's going to happen in the future. What do you think about, in your mind, what do you conjure up about the man that they're after or the real man who did these things? Man or man, persons, persons, I don't know.
I really have, I can't even begin to understand the mentality. I don't understand the motivation. Okay. Do you ever feel like you'd like to escape? Let me preface any answer to that remark by giving my feeling about jails. Somebody asked me, that question's been asked me before, I mean, would you want to escape? Have you ever planned to escape?
And if my attorney was here, he'd say, I object, Your Honor. Mr. Bundy is being asked a question, an attempt is being made to ask Mr. Bundy to incriminate himself. But let me try to get my way out of that one. The Utah State Prison, as you know, is surrounded by several barbed wire fences and has many, many guards and towers. And they've got dogs that run around there.
And they've got bars in the cells. And they've got count procedures. And what do you think that's all for? That's to keep the men in there. Now, does anyone think that if they took those fences down, and took those dogs away and those guns away, all those guys would stay? Sure they'd go.
The very reason for prison, the very assumption of all those bars and all that barbed wire is that if it's not there, those guys are going to leave. And I swear to God, every man in that prison at one time or another thinks about going, wishes he wasn't there, and wishes he could fly over those fences. I've dreamed about flying over those fences.
I've dreamed about climbing over those fences and tunneling under those fences. With every other man in there, I've dreamed about being free. Because I don't like my liberty being taken away and no man does. Some men in the Utah State Prison become institutionalized because they've been so brutalized over the years they don't want to think about the outside.
But most every man when he first goes in there dreams and thinks and conjures up all kinds of ideas of freedom. But the real difference, the real measure of a man in prison as far as escape goes is the difference between hitting that fence and not hitting that fence. between getting shot at and not getting shot at, and having the guts to do it and not having the guts to do it.
You might be able to open those gates at the Utah State Prison, and 80% of the guys wouldn't leave. They'd be afraid to get back out into society. They'd be afraid of being shot or getting another beef put on them. But some would. All I'm saying is, I'm no fool. I don't like being locked up, and I don't think any man does.
You talk about getting out. Do you ever worry about what some of the parents of some of these women who think you are guilty, that they might come after you?
I don't worry about it. There are crazy people anywhere. I've been told that the parents of these that these girls are fairly decent people. I don't know. And I really feel for them because apparently they've suffered an incredible tragedy in their lives. The loss of a loved one is probably the most extreme kind of loss you can suffer in this life.
And I feel as much for them as anybody can, not having gone through that myself. But as far as worrying about that, hey, if someone's crazy enough and nutty enough to do something like that, I can't stop them. There's nothing I can do. You are not guilty. I'm not guilty. Does that include the time I stole a comic book when I was five years old?
I'm not guilty of the charges which have been filed against me. And the allegations. And the allegations. And the rumors. I don't know all of what she's speaking about, Lucky. It's too broad, and I can't get into it in any detail. But I'm satisfied with my... blanket statement that I'm innocent. No man is truly innocent.
I mean, we all have transgressed in some way in our lives, and as I say, I've been impolite, and there are things I regret having done in my life, but nothing like the things I think that you're referring to.
You've ever physically harmed anyone?
I've already qualified for the third degree.
Oh, come on, guys.
Yeah, I know more about it. My class is graduating in about a month. In law school? I bet you I know more about law than any of them. That pisses me off. Now that does piss me off.
Goodbye.
Thank you. Ted, take care. Okay, later.
The trial of a man accused of killing two girls in a sorority house in Tallahassee, Florida, is having a difficult time getting underway. Ike Siemens is covering this case.
33-year-old Theodore Bundy is charged with beating and strangling two Florida State University sorority sisters and attempting to kill another woman student in January 1978. His trial was transferred to Miami after Judge Edward Cowart found that choosing an impartial jury in Tallahassee would be difficult. Selection of the 12-person jury began yesterday in Miami.
Unlike most murder trials, this one will feature the defendant helping four public defenders in cross-examining witnesses. Bundy, a former law student at the University of Utah, has already complained to the judge that his jail cell is not adequate for his legal research. The judge ordered the jail to change that.
Inside the courtroom, the trial will be covered by a still photographer and one television camera. Upstairs, there are some 250 reporters and television technicians from around the country. They will be following the trial and making videotaped recordings of it. The Bundy trial is expected to last more than a month, according to the judge.
Before the trial begins, Bundy's lawyers will ask the judge to throw out two key pieces of pretrial testimony. One is from a woman student. She says she saw the man who ran from the sorority house on the night of the murder. Another is from a dental expert. He says that the teeth marks found on the buttocks of one of the victims could only have been made by Theodore Bundy.
Ike Siemens, NBC News, Miami.
In Miami, Judge Edward Cowart is expected to rule today on two defense motions in the trial of Theodore Bundy. He's accused of murdering two co-eds at Florida State University. The judge heard testimony on one of those motions yesterday. Here are details from Mark Potter of station WCKT.
Bundy took the witness stand wearing a sport coat and a Seattle Mariners t-shirt.
Stay at home, buddy. Stay at home, buddy.
He was questioned by one of his attorneys during a pre-trial hearing outside the presence of the jury. Bundy is acting as part of his own defense team and is trying to prevent evidence seized during a 1975 arrest in Granger, Utah from being used in his murder trial in Miami.
He claims that a pair of handcuffs and a pantyhose mask were taken from his car by patrolmen who did not tell him he could refuse such a search. He also claimed that a patrolman threatened him.
Well, after the stop had occurred, I exited my car.
And the officer, Hayward, had left his car and approached me. And the first thing he said to me was, why didn't you get out of your car and run? I could have taken your head off.
Judge Edward Cowart has not yet ruled on Bundy's request to suppress the evidence. He also has not ruled on a defense motion to bar the testimony of Nita Neary, a one-time Florida State University co-ed who was the prosecution's main witness. Neary says she is positive she saw Bundy leaving the Cayamaga sorority house carrying a club the night two co-eds were brutally murdered there.
Bundy is accused of those crimes. Mark Potter for NBC News, Miami.
Would you please state your full name and address? after you'd been stopped by Trooper Hayward. Approximately what time did you leave? Well, it's either the 15th or the 16th. Is there any question about that? It's not. All right. Long as we're not hung with one on one day and one on another, that's the only thing the court would worry about.
We're talking about one single incident, either August the 15th or August the 16th. Is that correct, gentlemen? After you had been stopped, did Officer Hayward say anything to you?
Well, after the stop had occurred, I exited my car, and the officer, Hayward, had left his car and approached me, and the first thing he said to me was, why didn't you get out of your car and run?
I could have taken your head off, or words to that effect.
Did he ask you for your driver's license and registration?
He did.
I think he asked me a number of questions which intervened the request for a driver's license, and I think he asked me, after his first comment, what I was doing in his neighborhood, to which I did not initially make a response. And then he asked me for my driver's license, which I got from the inside of my car.
Yes.
Yes.
No. Yes.
After I gave the officer my driver's license, he went back to his vehicle, as I recall, and leaned in and pulled out the microphone that they use for the radios and came back to me and told me to go stand by his car, which was approximately 10 feet in back of my car. He told me to wait there, and there was an officer, another state patrolman, who was already on the scene.
And he told me to stay with the officer. He told the officer to keep an eye on me.
Let me back up a little bit. Was Officer Hayward in uniform? Yes, he was. Was he carrying a weapon? Yes, he was. Was the additional officer who had come to the scene, was he in uniform? Yes. Was he carrying a weapon? Yes. How many officers arrived at the scene?
Well, they arrived and they left. I'd say that at any one time there were, the most that were on the scene at any one time, approximately half a dozen. All in uniform? All except for Detective Ondrak, who arrived later, who was in plain clothes.
What was the attitude of the officers towards you?
Well, I testified as to
Sergeant Hayward's initial reaction, after he told me to stand by his car, he proceeded to my car and walking, he began to walk around it shining his flashlight through the windows and peering in through the windows. The officer that I was standing with next to the patrol car began asking me questions, asking me what I was doing in the neighborhood, why I was there.
As I was standing by the car, watching him and listening to the officer next to me ask me questions, I watched him walk around the car and shine his flashlight in the car. He apparently was focusing on something inside the car for some time, which seemed like some time.
He opened the car door. entered the car, and I couldn't see what he was doing. He came back to me and then repeated his earlier questions about what I was doing in his neighborhood, why I was there, and then, as I recall, he went to make another call on his police radio.
Did Officer Hayward or any other officers
I can't recall a request to search my car.
And the words, whether or not they asked me if they could look at my car is something I don't recall or construed as a request to search my car.
After Sergeant Hayward had searched my car and called in another officer to come in, and after my car had been thoroughly searched by the other officers, Detective Ondrak approached me at that time and informed me that he was going to seize certain items from my car and told me that he was going to attempt to get a warrant or a complaint or something of that type.
against me for possession of burglary tools. At that point, Sergeant Hayward or another officer, I'm not sure, searched me for the first time, handcuffed me, put me in his vehicle, read me the rights off a little card he carried on his console, and drove me downtown to the Salt Lake County Jail.
It was after the search had taken place.
Well, I'd say I was afraid to, but that's not exactly the way.
I mean, it's not that I was quaking in my shoes. I felt that I couldn't stop them from doing what they were doing, that they were going to go ahead and do it no matter what I did. They were intent. The questions from Sergeant Hayward and the other officers at the scene indicated that They believed that I was involved in some sort of activity, and they were hostile about it.
The questions seemed hostile to me, indicated to me that they were going to do damn well what they pleased, and I did not... You didn't see any point? There was no point.
I didn't see how the heck I could stop a half a dozen uniformed armed officers from searching my car.
I think that about covers it. I have no further questions. Mr. McKay? Thank you, Judge. Just a couple of things. That's not the first thing you told Hayward, though, when he asked you what you were doing in the neighborhood, did you? What? Excuse me? He asked you what you were doing in the neighborhood, and you didn't tell him right off what you were doing in the neighborhood, did you?
I told him what I had responded to his question.
I understand. What was that response? As I recall, the response, I don't know when it occurred... was that I had been in the neighborhood drive-in movie.
I said my response to him was that I had been in the vicinity at a drive-in movie.
And you followed that up. Let me see if I understand your testimony correctly. You followed that up with another story, didn't you? Yeah, but restate the question. Well, did you tell Hayward anything else after you told him that you'd been at the drive-in movie? You do recall your testimony during the courtroom proceedings in Utah, do you?
I'm not sure what you're referring to. I mean, really, it's a broad question. If you try to be more specific, I can help you out. Do you recall your testimony in Utah? I recall testifying in Utah.
Do you recall the testimony? Judge, does that have to be talked about by either the officers at this hearing or by the testimony of the judge? You don't cross-examination any of the things. We've got a direct pinpointed question of issue of fact. The court has to. And that's, I think, a valid question. Overruled, you may proceed. Do you need me to freshen up your memory a little bit, Mr. Bunyan?
I think if you could be asking the question again, I'm not sure if you're asking, but I can try. I'm asking you on kind of an initial question, and I don't mean to be confusing. Do you recall your testimony in Utah? If you don't, say so, and I'll try to refresh you.
Well, if you can give me a specific question, I don't think it would be difficult for me to sit here and quote you verbatim what my testimony was in Utah.
I understand. I can appreciate that. Let me see if this refreshes your mind. Do you recall testifying in Utah? that on the evening in question you were eating dinner and watching television until 12 midnight or 12.30, which time you decided to visit a friend.
That upon arriving at that friend's house, you noticed the lights were out, you decided not to waken her up, and you proceeded to drive around for a while. You ended up in the Granger area where you decided to smoke some dope.
You're on now. Excuse me, but if he's going to ask me a question, I will object to the summarization of the entire line of questioning.
If I've sufficiently refreshed your memory, say so, and I'll stop. You want to tell us about that testimony? Do you recall that, mister? Do I recall the testimony? You apparently do.
You just told the court there was lengthy questions and answers about that one. All I'm saying is that I don't recall the testimony specifically, but I can say that in general that I can associate what you're saying with the trial in Utah. Okay.
Specifically, do you recall telling the court in Utah that you fled from the officer in order to get the smoke out of your car? Isn't it a fact that you've done all of the research on this particular motion?
Yes, such as it is. Yes, I have. Have you found some cases on the point?
I've found too many cases. And the point we're talking about is consent to search, isn't it? That's one of the points we're talking about. actual basis would need to be for a consent search to be thrown out?
Yes, I'm familiar with it. I am now. I wasn't then. That hasn't colored your testimony a bit. I think you'll find, well, no it hasn't, and I think you'll find if
Inferred testimony on the motion?
I feel like I need to call Officer Hayward just briefly, Judge. All right. Officer Hayward. Sergeant, I guess he is now. Your Honor, do you need me to swear this witness? No, sir. Step out of the witness stand, sir, and be seated.
I approve this one, Sergeant. The oath is still out. All you may proceed, Mr. President.
Thank you, Judge. Sergeant, are you familiar with the smell, the odor of marijuana? Yes, sir. How long have you had some experience in this odor?
I had three years just prior to this date of alcohol and drug enforcement, drug drivers in the state of Utah.
During the time you were in Mr. Bundy's car on this particular evening, at any time, did you smell the odor of marijuana?
No, sir, I did not.
At any point during your search in the car or around the car, trunk, engine, whatever, did you find any substance that resembled marijuana?
No, I did not.
At any time during your chase of Mr. Bunyan, did you see anything thrown out of the car? No, I did not. for this one. This is a... Just asking if that's the full report and if it's accurate or not.
Sergeant Hayward, I'm showing you a document list marked as defendant's closed exhibit A1 identification. I ask you to identify that, please.
That appears to be... Appears to be what? The same document I have here, full document.
Your incident report of the...
The stop that occurred on August the 16th, 1978? Yes. Who had offered this and the evidence?
We received without objection Do they have any other rebuttal? No, sir. Motion's closed. Gentlemen, I'm going to take argument on both of the motions to suppress. John, I'm not prepared to argue the law beyond generalities.
I have a great deal of case material. As I say, I have not had access to library to streamline it, as it were. I would be willing to make a general argument, but we reserve the right to submit to the court a memorandum
All right. I'm going to rule on both of them until in the morning anyway. I want to hear the argument on both of them this afternoon. There's no more hearing testimony. How about Pecano and Zion? Do that during trial if you want to, Judge. I thought we had reserved that for during the trial. This is all the testimony to be taken on a motion.
Well, we've got some William Rule questions, but they primarily will be not witness testimony, as I understand. You do have some short testimony. Well, let's take these two motions to suppress in that order. Are there arguments on them now? Judge, would we give you a chance to give Mr. Haggard?
Yes, I think you should, and we're going to proceed now with the argument on the Granger, and Mr. Bundy, you may proceed. Thank you.
Your Honor, there's a lot of cases in that box, and they all deal with consent search issues.
Yes, sir. I'm sure that there's probably that many more that you've missed.
And I've missed quite a few. We're only dealing with a couple jurisdictions. As I said, I'm going to argue the law broadly because I haven't had an opportunity to
to complete my research on the status of Florida law, although I'm familiar with the parameters of the consent search issue as they exist here in Florida and those as outlined by the United States Supreme Court and other federal courts.
Well, we've really basically set the stage. I'm sure you've read left to mighty. Yes, sir. Let's proceed with that, and we'll go from there. You're not going to be far wrong from Florida law.
Well, I think the, before I refer to the Bustamante case, I think it's important that the court be put in a position of determining whether it's Florida law that applies or the law of the search, the state with a search criminal.
The conflict should be resolved in the manner of adopting the law of the foreign state of Florida to determine whether a consent in the search that we've heard testimony in today was freely, voluntarily, and knowingly given.
Well, you've got more of a basic threshold. This court would have to take into consideration the rulings of the Spring Court of Utah, Mr. Bundy, as far as the concept is concerned. And the only collateral attack, or something in the nature of the collateral attack, would be a federal argument. As this court conceives the law, I think the state
Constitution, if you're well aware of, concerning full faith and credit and finality of the arguments as it relates to seizure of the goods under the forum of where they're seized. This Court would consider that the only possible collateral approach would be on the basis of some additional federal requirement maybe not brought to the attention of the Utah Court.
However, so that the record is patently clear, I'm going to proceed with the concept that both arguments, or all three arguments, are in fact open. And I'm not going to close you out on that. Brevity has never been the keynote of this trial and probably never will be. So I'll hear whatever you have to say.
They're directly involved in the search, which did not come to the attention, or I would tell the court that these issues did not come to the attention of the Florida Supreme Court, or the Utah Supreme Court. However, I understand that the court has read the Supreme Court's Chief Justice Ellett. Chief Justice Ellett did not find that the search ruled on by the trial court was legal.
The legal finding of Chief Justice Ellett in State v. Bundy was that there was evidence sufficient to justify the judgment of seizure and certain the search and seizure issue involved in the utah case i think what we have here is simply a badly written opinion and one which is self-evident relies on virtually no case law and a very highly complicated appeal and so i will say only
in determining the legality or illegality of the search that occurred and is the subject of this motion. Let me go to the Bustamante case because it's so often referred to and because it's so important in consent search cases.
The jury could have recommended either death or life in prison for Theodore Bundy. His mother pleaded to save him.
My Christian upbringing tells me that to take another's life under any circumstances is wrong. And I don't believe the state of Florida is above the laws of God. Take can be very useful in many ways to many people living. Gone from us would be like taking a part of all of us and throwing it away.
The jury wasn't persuaded. In less than two hours, the same men and women who had convicted him of killing two sorority sisters had this recommendation while an unemotional Theodore Bundy listened.
We, a majority of the jury at Miami-Dade County, Florida, this 30th day of July, A.D., 1979, recommend that the court impose the sentence of death as authorized by the Florida Statute 775.082, subsection 1, so say the majority, Rudolph E. Tremel Foreman.
A judge in Miami today followed the jury's recommendation and sentenced Theodore Bundy to die in the electric chair for the murder of two coeds. Bundy is the 136th person under death sentence in Florida. Ed Rabel reports.
Before pronouncing the sentence, Judge Edward Cowart let Bundy make a statement.
I'm not asking for mercy, for I find it somewhat absurd to ask for mercy for something I did not do.
So I will be tortured for and will suffer for and receive the pain for that act. But I will not share the burden for the guilt.
In imposing sentence, Judge Cowart cited the savagery of the crimes and what he called the indifference of the defendant.
This court independent of, but in agreement with, the advisory sentence rendered by the jury that has hereby imposed the death penalty upon the defendant, Theodore Robert Bundy.
Then, in an unexpected move, perhaps an afterthought, Cowart stunned the courtroom with some parting words for Bundy. Take care of yourself, young man. Thank you.
I say that to you sincerely. Take care of yourself. It's a tragedy for this court to see such a total waste, I think, of humanity that I've experienced in this court. You're a bright young man. You made a good lawyer. I'd but you went another way, partner.
Bundy says he'll appeal. Meanwhile, he has been ordered to the state prison to await setting of the date of his execution in the electric chair. Ed Braybill, CBS News, Miami.