Tim Miller
Appearances
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 932
What do you think about going to a porn store five nights a week with a pizza? He brings the pizza into the porn store, goes into the back room, and he's there every night.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 932
What was he watching back there, do you think? I don't know. Have you ever been in a back room at a porn store? Never one time? Are you sure? Even before the internet? Even before Pornhub?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
takes us a little bit to the domestic side of this, because there is an underlying argument beneath the appointment of Pete Exeth, for example, Secretary of Defense, which you see in memes from Republicans like Ted Cruz and others, which is that the Russians and the Chinese and militaries abroad, they are tough. They care about being real men, and that's men's values there. And here...
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
We have weakened our military. We care too much about DEI or whatever, our struggle sessions. You hear this a lot. And that truism is what underlines the rationale for making these appointments. And so I'm just curious what you think about that and what you think the incoming administration, how their changes might affect our readiness and our military.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I'm excited to have you back. Hopefully you can illuminate some things for me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Obviously, most of this stuff is coming from, you know, keyboard tough guys like Ted Cruz. But there is some demand for this inside the military from some quarters. So I want to read you something that happened on, I guess, Tuesday morning. The Trump transition put out a press release saying that 120 retired generals and admirals signed a letter supporting Pete Hegseth.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
In the press release, it has a couple sentences here. He has studied and experienced the disastrous effects of diversity, equity, and inclusion on our military, and he's committed to expunging it from our armed forces. Prominent in Trump's mandate was making our military strong and lethal to include removing what is called wokeness from our armed forces.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Much to discuss. And you've written, I want to get at the end, you've written for us as well, which I always really appreciate. You wrote something beautifully about American values, what you've learned in the Army, and what maybe the citizenry needs to learn. You wrote that for us after the election. So I want to get to that at the end. But there's so much happening around the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
So, you know, it's over 120 guys who look at a weekend talk show host and say he's the right man for the job because he has expertise on DEI. What do you think about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Whether, I don't know, the credibility question. I mean, how do you assess somebody like an appointment like Hegseth when there are just so many qualified people out there?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And usually I have a little outline of things I want to talk about. But given your breadth of experience, I actually thought the more interesting way to start would be, I want a threat assessment from you. You're looking at the domestic challenges we face with the incoming Trump administration. So I have his appointees looking at what's happening with Syria and Iran and the Koreas and Ukraine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Yeah. I just listened to that. And you said something that is just something that I've been wondering about. Somebody just doesn't, doesn't have any experience in this world. It's like, if you're a brigadier general, you know, like you said, said you are, and you're going in next February and you've got to do a briefing on war planning to the secretary of defense and,
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
It's a guy that's been sitting on the couch for eight years on a weekend talk show. I mean, that has, I don't know what that does to morale, but I just, I'm just painting that picture in my head. It feels ridiculous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I mean, even putting the politics of it aside, just as a question of seriousness and the type of person you would want in a job like this, it seems pretty preposterous when you think about the quality of people that are going to be reporting up to this person.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I have to tell you about this game-changing product I use before a night out with drinks. It's called pre-alcohol. Let's face it, after a night out with drinks, I don't bounce back the next day like I used to. I have to make a choice. I can either have a great night or a great next day. That is until I found pre-alcohol.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
If you're getting a phone call, it's like, General, what do you think the biggest threat is that we face? And what are you most concerned about? What's at the top of your list right now?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make pre-alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. It's Christmas party season, people. It's Christmas party season. I'm doing my best. As I mentioned, I'm trying not to do weeknight drinking. All right. Need to be fresh for the show.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
But it's not my fault that people are planning their Christmas parties on Tuesdays or Thursdays. And Z Bionics pre-alcohol is something to take before you go to the Christmas party. Just in case. Just in case you have one more than you wanted. And here's the thing about Christmas parties. Just a little piece of advice. Office Christmas party is probably not the moment to just go completely ham.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I was talking to Michael Weiss about this the other week, and he's talking about the intelligence side of this. And on the list of those five cabinets, you mentioned DNI. You know, again, say what you want about Tulsi. She also served like Hegseth, but repeatedly she has demonstrated either sympathies or... willingness to advance pro-Russian messaging.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And I do wonder how you think about that as far as the threats that are facing us domestically and kind of the questions about whether how our allies are going to look at that as far as intelligence sharing and, you know, whether it might raise any questions about the strength of the alliance, etc. ?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Yeah, I think of the times in the past, I guess, referencing like the Lavrov, the example with Trump's sharing information that was with the Russians. Oh, was it about Israel? Gosh, I can't remember. It's been a while.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
You're not exactly bringing up an uplifting analysis of what's happening here, General Hartling.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Okay. Give me something. What do you got? What's something good? What's something good that's happening out there?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
How about this for something positive? You started by talking about kind of these conversations you were having with, was it folks at West Point, did you say? Young people coming into the military now. What did you see from them? I mean, like, are they as wrapped up in all this culture war nonsense and political nonsense as the people at the top are? And what was their kind of mindset?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
You can go for a jog, watch your favorite TV show, or head out to a party, whatever floats your boat. I've mentioned this before about the gummies, all right? You know, these days, especially those of us who get into middle age, that like three glasses of wine or two glasses of wine with dinner sometimes leads me to a little bit of a lag the next day.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I'm not exactly as sharp as I need to be with my quips and bon mots. And so the gummies, you don't have that. You don't get to deal with that. You can de-stress. You know, I can turn on Silo. I've been watching Silo on Apple TV Plus lately and have a little gummy, chill out. No repercussions, no ramifications, right? Nothing. It's all good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
It was titled, I Helped the Army Remember Its Values. I Wish I Could Do the Same for the Country. There was a mnemonic device, leadership, without the E and the A in there. So it was loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage. Just talk about kind of what underlined that and what lessons we might want to take from it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Do you worry that... I don't know. There's an increased sense in the country that that stuff was all BS and that that is what kind of underlined the Trump rise. I mean, you know, just the fact that America really should act like we're just any other country. We should go out and get ours.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Isn't that kind of what underlines the nationalist impulse that over the National Review, Rich Lowry is obsessed with this, like America isn't an idea, actually. And we have interests like any other country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Do you worry that Trump's second victory is kind of a victory for that worldview and that maybe this kind of sense that there's something deeper about service to America is starting to disappear?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I hope you're right. I just, I look at that list and it's like loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, personal courage. It's tough to see our president-elect on that list anywhere. You know, it was reminiscent to me of during the McCain funeral. A lot of people were giving odes to him, talking about any of these traits that he had.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And a lot of Trump's defenders at the time were like, oh, they're insulting him. They're attacking the president. It's like, well, no, odes to these values that he doesn't have are not necessarily negative attacks on him. They're just odes to what we actually value here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I think we're going to go through a period now over the next four years where it's going to be tough to navigate that a little bit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
It's a great piece. I hope people go and read it. I've got one more thing for you and then I want to do a little St. Louis talk. I meant to ask you at the top, given your expertise, your amount of time in Europe, dealing with our counterparties and our allies in Europe,
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
If what you're saying is correct about the weakness of Russia right now and about the need to make sure we're backing our Ukrainian partners, we've seen the NATO Secretary General calling for more assistance and for European partners to step up more and recognize the threat that they face. Is there anything to that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Could the Western alliance survive with a diminished role of the United States, you think, or... Does the United States diminishing necessarily mean a weakening of the entire alliance and Putin continuing to kind of regather his strength?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Since your assessment of just the way that Russia has been degraded, I think is maybe greater than some of the conventional wisdom is out there. Do you concur with what Ruta said recently about how Europe doesn't know what they're in for? And, you know, over a three, four, five year window, Russia has ambitions potentially beyond Ukraine. Do you share that concern?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Or do you think that they are too degraded to be able to execute on even if they had greater ambitions that couldn't actually follow through on them? What's your assessment?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Louis man. You went to Chaminade, which is a Catholic school. No, I went to CBC. You went to CBC, Christian Brothers. Okay. So of my, so I've got, so my father and let's see, one, two, I'm doing a quick math in my head. One, two, three, four, five of my, four of my uncles went to SLU. I had one fellow CBC. My mother's youngest brother was CBC. Everybody else was SLU.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Yeah. Absolutely. I know that the youngest brother that my, when my mother went and her brother went to CBC, it was a little bit of a touchy subject actually around, around the house since everybody else had gone to SLU. I, we moved, my parents moved me or moved us. I'm actually Denver. I rep Denver, but I have two huge Catholic families.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And so I have a hundred cousins who go to every, who went everywhere. Though I don't think we had any CBCs. That's why I had Chaminade mixed up in my head. I did have a cousin went to Chaminade, an uncle went to CBC, but a lot mostly slew across the board. Though a friend of mine is now the president of DeSmet, Ronnie O'Dwyer. So we have a little St. Louis Catholic school rivalry happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
But you've also, like me, we've migrated out of St. Louis. You're a Florida man now? A Florida man now, yeah. Are you at all concerned about the regime targeting you? There is a little bit of anxiety, but not much. I can handle it. All right. I have no doubt you can handle it. Thank you, General Mark Hertling. I really appreciate it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
We are richer for your analysis here, and you've been a frequent visitor of the podcast and the site. We're really grateful to you, and I hope we can stay in touch.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
All right. Everybody else, we'll be back tomorrow. We've got a first-time guest on the podcast. Super pumped for it. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
All right. So a lot there. There's some obvious threats I think we're going to get to, particularly Russia and Russia and North Korea, which you also wrote about for us recently, if you want to dig deeper on that. The most interesting thing you said there is you began with concerns about the Middle East.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And there's one way to look at this, which is what's happened over the last half year or year, really, in the Middle East and say, well, Iran's influence is weakened. Hezbollah and Hamas are weakened, nearly eliminated, and Assad's been overthrown. Is it not possibly the case that the threats there are diminishing rather than increasing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Can I ask you, And I asked Ian Applebaum about this on Friday, and I've really been pondering. the Bibi question and the Israel question because I'm a softy. And so, some of the Bibi stuff, you know, said the Israel's prosecution of the war has at times made me very uncomfortable ranging towards upset.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
On the other hand, though, you know, they were responding to this just heinous, horrific attack. And what we have seen from the fact that Israel's military and Bibi have been unwilling to kind of respond to pressure from the globe because they've resisted that pressure just objectively, like they've successfully weakened these very serious threats around the, around the region.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
So I wonder, you know, just from a military perspective, kind of how you assess the way that Israel has prosecuted the war over the last year.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I want to go back up to Ukraine. You know, when you were on with Charlie, gosh, a couple of years ago now, time is a flat circle. And I think we're pretty prescient in speaking about the weaknesses of the Russian military. I think you were more, because of your firsthand experience, I think more aware of the limitations, to say the least, that their military operation would have.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
You said the same thing about this. You wrote the same thing for us about this partnership with North Korea that has, you You know, allowed them to have kind of additional men coming in to the battlefield.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I'm wondering how you assess the state of play now with the specter of Donald Trump coming in and whether you feel like that's changed at all, whether you think that Russia is maybe on a stronger footing or I guess just broadly what you think the state of play is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Wednesday. I'm actually taping this Tuesday afternoon because Wednesday morning I'm flying to D.C. Me and Sarah Longwell are doing a debate against the Libertarian Reason Bros over at the Howard Theater. So if you're in D.C. and want to come hang out. and are listening to this on Wednesday afternoon.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
It does seem insane that we would take, we being the West, would take our foot off the gas here at this moment if what you're saying is right. If they're in such a weak position for this to be the moment to say, let's negotiate, it's just a gift to Putin. It's like it would be to bail him out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Yeah. Why do you say that the first is he always wins just because he's not negotiate? He doesn't negotiate in good faith and the other side does.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
For people that are maybe new to us or just refresh memories for those from the last time you were around, and part of the reason why you were able to assess their weakness was seeing firsthand the type of military operation they were running. Why don't you just refresh folks' memory about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
We're doing that tonight around 7 p.m. So in the meantime, I have a wonderful guest. I'm excited to welcome back to The Bulwark to talk big picture view of what's happening here and around the world. He is a retired lieutenant general and a CNN military analyst. He's a former commanding general of the U.S. Army in Europe in the Seventh Army. He's a veteran of both Iraq wars. It's Mark Hartling.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I'm sorry, General, I got to interrupt you there because I've been told on Fox News and such that that's like how you do military right. That's the manly military, you know, beating up soldiers. It's just our woke pansy military that doesn't do stuff like that. Is that not incorrect?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
that preloading i've been talking about that that's key all right what you don't want is a photo frame you send somebody a box it's a box all right it's got a beautiful mat it looks good it's cool they put it up on their mantle they put it on their bedside table but it's it's nothing you know it's a it's a photo of some people they don't know or it's a single photo of you you know and uh and your family and then it's boring and then they move on to the next present
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
you know woke tim would say this is what the woke folks would say about this which is that poster was always bullshit and chris rock did kind of a bit on saturday night live this weekend about how like oh donald trump is going to you know the dignity of the office will be sullied an office held by multiple rapists and people who people who put their hand on the bible while their slaves like was pregnant with their baby you know and it's like
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
There's something to be said for that, right? Is it like, is actually, is it just like our naivete? Here's woke Tim. Is it our white privilege naivete that has just been, that has just been cracked? And like, we believed some stupid myths and it's time for us just to be a little more hard headed. Is that possible?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
So we're going to keep that in there because I think the conversation is informative around that question. But the good news is Moskowitz is not going anywhere. The Democrats are not going to lose a seat in the House of Representatives. All right. Up next, our friend Tom Nichols. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I've been having fun in the green room.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Some myth-making is good, is what you're saying. Of course it is. Calling us to our higher selves and building up the best parts of the country rather than obsessing over all the flaws, rather than reveling in the flaws and saying that the flaws are the good parts. That is a negative change.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
With a focus on conversation, you'll be ready to talk, wherever you go you all know me i'm saying i'm staying i'm not running from this asshole but um it's nice to imagine running it's nice to imagine you know a new life in punta del este or sao paulo
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And, you know, one way to make those daydreams something practical and useful is to just start learning a new language just in case you decide to pull the plug. And Babbel is a great way to do that, because if you end up just going on a vacation, which I plan on doing at minimum next summer, or, you know. Things get really serious and you decide it's time to become an expat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But before we get to the guest, we're in the final stretch between Christmas or Hanukkah or whatever you're celebrating this year. Trump is going to be president again, so we're saying Merry Christmas again. So if you want to be a Bulwark member and you haven't yet, you can go to thebulwark.com slash subscribe. That can be a Christmas present to yourself or to a loved one. Come on, join.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Here's a special holiday deal for our listeners. Right now, get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash bulwark. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash bulwark. Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash bulwark. Rules and restrictions may apply. I can't follow up on your request that we get out of the darkness because there's only darkness in the news.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But maybe we can get out of the deep well of darkness into a shallower pond. There was a news item yesterday that didn't get a ton of attention. I'm interested in your reaction to it because I had a pretty strong reaction to it. Jared Moskowitz, a Democratic congressman who I've had on this podcast, I think is a good congressman who is a very tough guy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
In the oversight hearings and the bullshit oversight hearings that James Comer was doing, Moskowitz, I think, was the most savvy and kind of pushing back and exposing how BS these investigations into Biden were. He was the director of, I forget what they called in Florida, but emergency management, essentially, that might be the right title in Florida.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And he's friends with Matt Gaetz, which maybe raises a red flag. And I'm assuming that is what is underlining this. But he's been floated as the head of FEMA under Trump. And so you have these competing questions in a situation like this. It's a Democratic congressman that is in a swing. It's a Dem district, but it's a swingish district.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
So if you were to leave that to run FEMA, on the one hand, it's like, okay, this is an important role. And it's nice to have somebody that knows what they're fucking doing in this role, you know, if the big one comes or when the big one comes, you know, as far as earthquakes or hurricanes, whatever, the next four years. On the other hand, the Republicans have a very narrow House majority.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
If he leaves, DeSantis could keep that seat open for a while, give Mike Johnson some more breathing room. They could have a special election where a Republican takes that seat. That's very possible. It's not a safe seat. And the Machiavellian view of this, that the Democrats are going to play hardball, is it's insane for the Democrats to give up a seat in Congress to go do this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And we shouldn't assume that Donald Trump will pick Trump. a weekend talk show host to head FEMA. So like we should live in a world where you'd assume that the other party would pick somebody else that knows what they're doing when it comes to emergency management. And if not, let them, you know, wallow in their own incompetence. I'm curious where Tom Nichols falls on that question.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
We need to be together because out there in the rest of the world, it's scary and dark and bad. And so, you know, we might as well be dealing with that, processing it. You know my favorite word, processing all that together over this holiday season. Go to theblork.com slash subscribe. Today, of course, my guest is Professor Emeritus of the Naval War College. He's a staff writer at The Atlantic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
To me, this is the fundamental truism of Trump, right? Which is that the people who get involved because they think that they are going to be able to clean him up
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
are only made dirty by him right like he doesn't get clean they just get dirty like that's what happened like that is that's it like that's happened every single time there's like no counter exception and that i'll be allowed to do my job and do good things for america and my you know innate merit and talent will see me through and i won't get caught up in all this other horrible
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Yeah. You know, I mean, it's not like you become Deborah Birx. Yes. You become Deborah Birx. You go and you become Deborah Birx, who by all accounts is a serious person that just got totally sullied and her reputation ruined. Well, you know, while she tried to nudge Donald Trump to do better.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
He's the author of The Atlantic Daily Newsletter. His books include The Death of Expertise. Dropping on Christmas Eve is an audiobook rendition read by Tom himself. It is Tom Nichols. He just blew his nose in the green room. I don't know if that's happening on the audiobook, too, if people are just getting old man sounds. And what do you do? Do you freelance?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
We've been spending a lot of time on these tech oligarchs because I think, frankly, it's a related to Trump story. But just even distinct from Trump, it is, I think, the biggest story of the next four years. What is happening with these tech oligarchs as they try to centralize power and control over all of our lives?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I've been talking about this a little bit with Ann Applebaum on Friday and with others. But there was one little anecdote that I missed that was in the Atlantic Daily newsletter that I want to get your reaction to. It was first reported by Brian Schwartz and Dana Mattioli over at the Wall Street Journal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
The day before Thanksgiving at Mar-a-Lago, Mark Zuckerberg stood hand over heart as they played a rendition of the national anthem sung by January 6th prisoners. Yeah. That's where we're at. That's where we're at.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Zuck, who in 2017 was doing this apology tour where he went around the country listening to people and trying to understand where he had gone wrong and how Trump had taken over the country. And I'm trying to be an earnest... You know, I'm this earnest business leader who cares about you. No, no, no, no. This time I'm going to fly down to Mar-a-Lago. I'm going to suckle on Trump's toes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I'm going to put my hand over my heart as people that stormed the Capitol sing a rendition of the national anthem.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Do you do the Trump thing where you read the words on the page and then you vamp a little bit or what? Yeah, I stop every other paragraph and I go, so true, so true. So true. Great point, Tom. That is a good point, Tom. All right, Tom Nichols, I hear you're in Europe. You're in Europe, Prague, Brussels. What's the view from our European allies?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Have you seen Zuck's new outfit? He's got he's had a little makeover. Good, actually. But, you know, I mean, it speaks to the insecurities you're talking about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
The other example of this is Mark Andreessen. And I'm kind of obsessed with him right now because everybody's focused on Musk because he's so public about everything. And Zuckerberg because he's so famous. And Bezos. And, you know, Zuckerberg and Bezos have bent the knee. And Musk is, you know, the most powerful person. oligarch in the history of the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I mean, like certainly in the post-World War II era. I mean, if you go back to the robber baron era, there's a good analogy of somebody. I'm going to take issue with that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Let's take issue with that. I'm not sure. I want to wait to get to Andrew's. Go ahead. Let's talk about Musk.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
It's a fair caveat. Maybe powerful is the wrong word. I guess I'd say this. He's the country's biggest government contractor. And he also lives in the president-elect's bedroom, apparently, at his house. And so maybe powerful, but his influence, at least in this very moment, is not akin to anything that we've seen in a long time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And so I think that he deserves a lot of attention and sacks, as you mentioned, because of his podcast gets a lot of attention.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
learn more once the foreign policy starts to come into focus in the next administration. But I mean, he was very influential in choosing the VP. So here's the thing about Andreessen, though. is he's almost as rich as all these other guys, right? He runs the most powerful, I think, I keep throwing that around, but one of the most influential, one of the top VC firms in the Valley.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
He's on the board of Facebook. And he's very interested in AI and crypto. And I look at these two issues and like, what do these guys want, right? As I think you point out, a lot of them want attention. A lot of them are boys who were not popular in high school and have now got all this power and think they know everything and want attention. That's definitely part of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But they also are businessmen. They also want something financially. And Musk has a ton of interest. But the two main issues are AI and crypto and TikTok, which we've seen now Trump started to back off of. They were not happy with the regulatory regime around these products and these verticals.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And Andreessen, who has been going down to Mar-a-Lago, has apparently been interviewing people that are going to be regulating companies that he invests in. He explained to Barry Weiss why he ended up going all in for Trump. And it was around AI. And I want to listen to this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Wow. Okay. So there are two points here to tell your reaction to. One is he reveals that this is what he cares about. He doesn't want AI to be regulated in any way. And I think that is important in telling. Two, this conversation is obviously a lie, though. I'm sure he's unhappy with the Biden administration's policies towards AI.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But the notion that somebody in the Biden administration told them not to do AI startups and that they were going to classify big portions of AI like it was nukes. It was the Cold War. This doesn't feel like a real conversation, but what are your thoughts? Two thoughts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Usually as an interviewer, I'm learning how to be an interviewer. I'm relatively new to this. But if somebody tells you a story and your reaction to that is, wow, that seems crazy. Generally, maybe, I don't know, you follow up and try to get a little more. Who was this person that told you that? Was it Joe Biden himself? Was it Tony Blinken? Who was like, we're going to classify?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And is that how Cold War classification worked?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
You know, there's news in Romania. You know, there's coups in South Korea. There's stuff happening out there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Yeah, the respect that he deserves. The president should call me and should ask me about my expertise on anything that is all related to the technology sphere because I'm so successful. Or even unrelated. Or even unrelated.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I mean, that is a really... He's right about that, and it's important for the impact on all of our lives, for impact on policy, and for the Democrats' political layout, I think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Yeah, it goes against the ethos of what the contrarian Rogan bros like. And eventually these nerds are going to bite off more than they can chew, I think. If there's somebody you haven't bought a Christmas gift for here on December 17th, it might be because you're a procrastinator or it might be because they're kind of hard to shop for.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Luckily, there's one gift that everyone on your list is sure to enjoy, an Aura digital picture frame. Named number one by Wirecutter, Aura frames make it incredibly easy to share unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
aura carver matt digital frames so we've been handing them out and the fun part is you can give the same gift to your friend and to your aunt but have it be totally different have it be totally personalized the aunt is going to get pictures of my daughter and the family seeing what's happening out there you know now they can have a view into our life here in new orleans the friend
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. You mentioned the Assad defenestration, the overthrow of Assad and how you saw that from Europe. I do need to mention, I had referenced, I forget if it was with Bill or with Anne, the video of Clarissa Ward. And there was a man who was released by rebels from a Damascus jail.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And we talked about that and just how amazing that scene was. It turns out that that was a whiff and that the person that was imprisoned was not actually imprisoned. He was a intelligence officer for Assad that had tricked CNN. So Chris Ward's an amazing journalist, but CNN had to correct this kind of embarrassingly. Since I mentioned it on the pod the other day, I wanted to also mention that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But regardless of that specific incident, these images of people being released from these prisons are moving, the real ones. And so I'm curious if you have just any other big picture thoughts on what's happening there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
More onions on my belt, as was the style at the time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
It is really unfortunate. All right. I feel an obligation to mention because we have all these school shootings happen so often that it's like, what do you even say anymore? There's not much to say. There's not much to talk about it. But there was a student and a teacher killed at Abundant Life Christian School in Madison, Wisconsin yesterday by a 15-year-old girl.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
A second grader called in the shooting, which tells you something about American life. The one thing I do want to mention about this, we don't need to go round and round on all the views around guns and just how irresponsible everyone has been on this issue over the course of decades now. But this young girl wrote about some Turkish neo-Nazis that she was reading online.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I'm sorry to be like a flip about this because it is just another horrific tragedy. And these people have died. But I don't know, man. I mean, like that is really dystopian. So I don't know if you have any thoughts on that before we can end people on a higher note. But I thought it was worth mentioning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Speaking of Andreessen, you know, I was like, I was this person on social media, you know, in my 20s, like teaching people how to get on to fucking MySpace and Twitter and stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
No, it's not. That's not counterintuitive. That's fine. I agree with that. And people should go do that. And, you know, you should get involved with other young people. You know, one of the most fulfilling things that I had done was done various mentorship programs. And frankly, I fell down on that a little bit during 2024. But, you know, going to work with kids, doing homework with them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
It's fulfilling for you. It's good for them. Teens need to have encounters with other humans that are constructive and that are filled with demonstrations that people care about them. And I do think that makes a difference and people should look into that. That'd be a good New Year's resolution for everybody in 2025. Let's end with, I have to dunk on you. You're so proud of yourself.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
You posted on the blue sky. You skied a Christmas playlist. And I got to tell you. I have put together over two decades. I've curated the ultimate Christmas playlist, the best playlist that exists on planet Earth. We'll put it in the show notes. We'll compare it to your sad limp playlist.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I have gone through all of the renditions of Joy to the World and just pulled out the best ones of everything, of O Come All Ye Faithful. We have everything from Nat King Cole to
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
all the way up to suffion stevens we have random songs that just mention christmas in the middle that aren't christmas songs it's everything it includes no crap no fucking no paul mccartney wonderful christmas time bullshit all right it's only bangers all right and so i put that together i want you to be able to do things that are fulfilling for you in your life so i'm happy that you're kind of just starting one of your own but i just i want to kind of set a higher bar for you
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
You know, let's just defeat kind of right. It's like this acceptance. Like this is I guess this is just who you Yankees are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I don't have any Andy Williams, so this will be a challenge. Oh, my God. Look at mine. I will peruse your Andy Williams, and we'll take it from there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I mean, the fact that that person exists, yes. Like, what does he look like? Oh, my God. Any fun facts about him?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Why don't we end on an agreement? All right, there we are. That's at the top of my list. The Waitress's Christmas Wrapping is so wonderful. That will wrap up the show. We'll take it out with the Waitress's Christmas Wrapping. And Jason, if you can throw in just David Bowie wishing everyone a Christmas 1984, that would be nice as well. And Tom Nichols, we can say Merry Christmas again.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
So Merry Christmas to you. Thank God. I will see you in the new year. As Freddie Mercury would say, thank God it's Christmas. Thank God it's Christmas. That's Tom Nichols. We'll see him in 2025. We'll be back here tomorrow with a serious discussion and a serious guest, as is needed in these serious times. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Well, last time we talked, it was two days after the election. I went and I was really listening to it in the shower this morning. I like to have Tom Nichols in my ear in the shower. And that's evocative. Thank you. And we were pretty defeated in that conversation and resigned. And I'm just curious, like, you've never had a vacation since then.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Since then, we've had Matt Gaetz nominated and then withdrawn as attorney general, Pete Agseth, Tulsi, RFK. All this has happened. The folding of the oligarchs, you know, to Donald Trump, the acquiescence. I'm just wondering how you assess the state of affairs right now versus how you did. on election night?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Hey everybody, it's Tim. During this podcast, me and Tom Nichols discuss speculation that Congressman Jared Moskowitz, a Democrat from Florida, was going to be named the FEMA director in the Trump administration since we taped... Moskowitz tweeted that he is not going to be interested in that job and that he'll be running for reelection as a Democrat in Florida, something that I commend him for.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
is gone you know fired by tweet at some point down the line yeah they're on a one-day contract i've been listening to that answer i want to get a little heavier with you for a second because there's this micro to despair not to despair question of should we hope that trump can be stopped and that his nominees can be stopped and are there things that we can do to minimize the damage and to win in the midterms and can the democrats win again in the future
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And I think both of us are on the side of like, yes, like things can be done. This is bad, but we must not descend in denialism. We must maintain, you know, the, the knowledge that we can fight, that we can recover. So I agree with you on that. I do wonder about this though, is that some of the people who are despairing, is it related to your Europe trip?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And that the thing that they're despairing is that even if, He does fail, even if he does bumble, which we all expect. And even if the Democrats do win in the midterms, and even if the Democrats do win in 2028, like something fundamentally has now been broken that is unfixable. And that is what is underlying people's nihilism, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
That like the things that they cared about, the things that they thought that America was, it has been revealed that it is not those things and that it's not worth caring about these, you know, whatever it is, the traditions, the norms, the, you know, the majesty of American democracy, like that we've gone behind the curtain and the wizard is not there and it's Donald Trump, you know?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
That's beneath all these things that we have venerated. And that is what is leading people to despair, actually. And that, you know, well, maybe we can win some battles in the micro. In the macro, this thing is permanently fucked.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I want to leave that exchange, though, in the podcast, because I do think it speaks to some real fundamental questions about how this. Democrats and how the handful of anti-Trump Republicans that exist, how they should deal with this administration and kind of the ethics of that and the strategic thinking around, you know, how to engage with the Trump administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I definitely have some neighbors that voted for David Dick saying that I'm in Louisiana. So that's an absolute comparison for me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Just let that go. We're going down a rabbit hole. I didn't mean to go. We're going to get to the news, I promise. People who tune into this daily podcast for the news, we'll get there. This is what...
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Head on over to their website, unboundmarino.com, where new customers can use our code THEBULLWORK for 10% off their order. on the TPUSA thing, my remit in attending and observing those things is to actually talk to the attendees, right? It's not like the porn of, let's give these people the attention that they want, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And like, let them dunk on me so that they get more money for their YouTube, you know, so they can be like, oh, I attacked an Ever Trumper. I don't like to get involved in that kind of stuff. But I do think that engaging with the people that are consuming their, which you're right, their lies, just to be blunt about it, is something that is, I think, required. Some people have to do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Not everybody's got to do it. But I think that it's important to engage with those folks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Yeah, let's talk about that. So the number one person, maybe not number one anymore, but aspiring to be number one person they're consuming is Elon Musk, who now is running not the Fox News, but online, a very influential digital media channel that includes a lot of right-wing propaganda that he propagates to his millions of followers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
He is also, I guess, the deputy president or co-president or shadow president and potentially the Speaker of the House coming in. So we have over on the Hill... There was this continuing resolution, as we referenced earlier, which is going to fund the government for three more months.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Among the things that it was going to fund was assistance for rural America, for farm workers who are struggling because of some of the natural disasters because of interest rates. It was going to include a disaster relief for people directly suffering from the natural disasters and just, you know. paying federal government employees at Christmas, among other things. So Elon scuttles this himself.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And I'm interested in your take on what's happening. And then I want to get into your expertise of 19th century American history and talk about the parallels of what we've seen before when these kinds of oligarchs get their hands on the kitty.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Thank you. They have agency. I broke my own rule. Republicans have agency. They scuttled it because Elon told them to. Thank you. That's a good correction.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And it was taken over quite easily by him, you know, because what he did was he, he just revealed the truth of what is happening in Washington. And here's like the thing that the Republicans are able to get away with.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Yeah, it's actually in some ways an important lesson for our politics right now. I think that a lot of times that the Democrats are talking to people in just their silo and not kind of aware of what's happening in other silos, maybe more lowbrow than the American history silo. But, you know, there are other silos out there that it's important to reach.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And I think that the Democrats need to take this lesson very seriously going forward is that Washington has been run for quite a while by a secret Congress, essentially, like you're saying this was done in secret. It was run by the, a secret majority of adults, right? Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Which was most of the entire Democratic Party, basically, along with a handful of Republicans and Republican leadership that would work with them to do these CRs and to keep the basic functions running because they didn't want to deal with this crisis that they're dealing with now. And they did so and hopefully didn't get that much attention. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Especially when Steve Bannon was in jail, it got less attention for four months. So things moved a lot more slowly. Right. But those Republicans who are willing to be responsible only in secret are Now, we get to, you know, see the truth, right? Now, the curtain has been brought back by Elon Musk and by Trump, you know, with their huge megaphones.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And they're out there and they're saying, no, Elon in particular, no, we shouldn't do this. We shouldn't fund this. And now these Republicans are like, oh, wait, I can't go along with this. I'm going to get kicked out. You know, I'm going to have the same fate as Adam Kinzinger and Liz Cheney. Right. I'm going to be pushed out by these guys. And so I can't go along with this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And so now you see that really it was the Democrats that were the only governing party, whether you have criticisms about the way they governed, like they were the only ones that were doing the responsible elements of governing, you know, compromise, you know. giving a little bit to get a little bit, right? The types of things you have to do in a legislative system.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And so where it goes from here, I think is the open question. I sent the, there was a press release by the Farm Bureau today that was like, farmers can't wait a month. They need this assistance now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And my response to that is kind of like, well, you probably should have thought about that before, you know, prioritize tampons and boys bathrooms over actual, having actual adults in charge of the government. So here's where we are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
The second impeachment, the key one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Isn't it funny how the people we love most are often the hardest to shop for? Luckily, there's one gift that everyone on your list is sure to enjoy, an Aura digital picture frame. Named number one by Wirecutter, Aura frames make it incredibly easy to share unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
When you give an Aura frame as a gift, you can personalize it and preload it with a thoughtful message and photos using the Aura app, making it an ideal present for long-distance loved ones. It's a gift so special, they'll use it every day. I was in Sarah Longwell's office yesterday. I came into D.C. We did this debate with reason. We won the debate. We crushed them, actually, in the debate.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Me and Sarah did. There was a vote. They lost voters. We won every single undecided voter. It was a sweep. Just saying. I was at our office. We were doing a little prep. Not much prep. It was a pretty easy debate. Not much prep. We were doing a little prep. Talked about the bulwark. And I look over. I was like, boom, there's a picture of me. There's a picture of me inside the Aura digital frame.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
It looked wonderful next to her desk. You know, you see, think about this as a gift for a grandma to just send pictures of the kids. Nope. This was, you know, one of the kids preloaded it for Sarah. It had pictures of all of us, the Bulwark people, all of our live shows, all of you right there in her office. It was awesome. Great gift for Sarah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames by using promo code BULLWORK at checkout. That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com, promo code BULLWORK. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. I'm curious to talk about the parallels, to go back to kind of McKinley.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Trump has dinner last night with Bezos and Musk. You mentioned how he said that all these people like me. He's really talking about a few people, Zuckerberg.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
benny off right that andretian like these big billionaires that have gone down to kiss the ring and who you know want to get their piece of the pie now from the next government musk it's tbd whether musk is financially motivated or whether he's motivated by like he just is getting high off this power and and you know wanting to be in control of everything all these other guys you know they want to get theirs out of this uh out of this coming government so i'm wondering the parallels between kind of that era that you've written about and
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
You know, particularly McKinley, who Trump has referenced several times.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Do you have any Grover Cleveland reading recommendations for me? I know there's a lot of the parallels between there now are pretty striking.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I couldn't be more delighted to welcome to the Bulwark the professor of history at Boston College, teaching 19th century American history. She also writes the newsletter Letters from an American on Substack with over 1.8 million subscribers. Her books include Democracy Awakening, Notes on the State of America.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I don't know. Do you have a late 19th century history class that I could take on the side when I'm not podcasting over the next six months? It feels quite relevant.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I can already tell you that the commenters on the sub stack are going to be like, I will sign up for the Carnegie Cleveland McKinley. We can do a little bit on the cowboy art on the side for fun. But I think that more apt to our moment is how we're going to deal with this situation. marriage of the big tech oligarchs and the aspiring anti-democratic Republican Party.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I have one final question for you. It's the toughest one I've got. Susan Collins is up in two years. Have you considered leaving Substack and running for Senate?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
This is your sacrifice. I'm asking you to sacrifice by sitting in these meetings with these awful people. I trust me. I'm not asking you to get all that's not going to be like, oh, candy and rainbows. I get to be a senator. I get a detail. No, it's going to be terrible. But you might you might be needed for the moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
That's fair. But the Democrats could use some people that say what they think, that have lobsterman husbands, that talk bluntly. This is a thing that I think the Democrats are missing a little bit. So anyway, well, prey on it. We have a week. You have a couple of months.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Thank you. Heather Cox Richardson. It was such a delight. Please come back. Her newsletter is Letters from an American on Substack, the book. I'm sorry. I had to go deep on Grover Cleveland, so we didn't even get to it. Democracy Awakening, Notes on the State of America. I assume that the shorthand there is the state of America is creaky.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I love that you mentioned that about your husband. And for our YouTube viewers, you can see it seems like you're in a cabin in rural Maine. And you also speak plainly. And I think people get confused about this, right? That it's like, no, you don't have to dumb things down for your people. But it is important to speak plainly, to not use unnecessary language that is jargon, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
All right. Everybody go check that out. Heather Cock Richardson, thank you so much. Have a wonderful Christmas and holiday season and hope to talk to you soon.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
All right. Tomorrow we got one more podcast before I go on a skiing vacation. So come back. He's a friend of the pod. You'll enjoy it. See you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
That doesn't relate to their lives. You know, you hear the James Carvilles of the world complain about the Democrats talking too much like college faculty lounges. You know, we have the CR that we're going to be talking about today. There are things and they're like, we're going to change the phrase out of school youth to opportunity youth. What is what is an opportunity?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Yeah, exactly. But it's that you buck that, you know what I mean? Like you take the audience seriously, and you write about serious weighty matters with leaning on history, but it's not, you know, some of the frou-frou stuff that I do think that sometimes people on the left get get wrapped around the axle about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Who is the fifth country in Five Eyes? I always am trying to remember. It's New Zealand. I believe it's New Zealand. I think it's New Zealand too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
It's Heather Cox Richardson. How are you doing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
So delightful. Obviously, given the fact that lots of people are reading your newsletter, many are familiar with you. But I kind of just wanted to start, for those who aren't, a little bit about your backstory. And then we'll get into the Elon of it all and what's our new... you know, kind of deputy shadow president. And we'll talk a little bit about that and historical parallels.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
That is such a great and important definition and distinction of terms. I'm glad that you made me be more precise there because sometimes it's good to choose interchangeably as shorthand, right? It's like the left is a stand-in for Democrats and other times not. And that's confusing sometimes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I literally did this yesterday where I was criticizing the left in the way you describe it, right, for some of their attacks on the Harris campaign. And I was speaking specifically about the group that are the, whatever you want to call it, the populist left, right? That does not really want to be in coalition with the Liz Cheney's of the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And you see these folks on social media and they have a defined worldview that they want to redefine liberal democracy and not lumping that in with old fashioned liberals, right? Like people that like the rule of law, want to protect it, right? want to reform it in various ways to make sure it's more fair. That is a real distinction.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And I think that we're going to see that fissure a lot over the next four years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
But, you know, you, at least to me, I just emerged from the ether, right? It's like, hey, there's this professor that has a newsletter everybody reads. And I'm just curious, like how that kind of came to pass and what, you know, got you into all this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And one of the challenges, I think you're uniquely suited to talk about this, because one of the challenges is elevating voices from that, the broad middle, right? Not maybe centrism, as some people might define it, but that broad middle that believes in those values you laid out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Because just the nature of the algorithms of these social media feeds, in addition to the Russian disinformation and the bot farms and the trolls that are paid to contaminate our discourse, right? But just the algorithms themselves, they reward things that are inflammatory, right? And so they reward people on the far left and they reward most of MAGA.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I don't even want to call it the far right because it's not really kind of equivalent. It's like 10% of one side versus 40% of the other side. But they reward the most inflammatory rhetoric. And you've managed to kind of break through that without succumbing to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Totally agree. Could not agree more, especially about going on to those other podcasts. It's something that I have on my to-do list for 2025. And I'm actually going to the Turning Point USA Festival as soon as I'm finished with you today. Because I think it's important to hear what they're actually saying, rather than just hear the snippets that you get on social media.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
and understand their arguments at a deep level. It's important to do that if you're going to be able to rebut them in any way. And look, there are certain people that are just going to be down this rabbit hole and be red-pilled and be an occult, but there are other people that we can pull back from the brink, but we've got to understand what they're consuming.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
You should be angry. And the admires is a good word because you sense this in the run the interview that there is like a you got to hand it to him kind of thing. Like I ran for president. They rejected me like Trump must be doing something that I wish I could have done. And that is the thing that is the most dispiriting about all of it and a little bit enraging.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It's like if good old-fashioned Mormon church-going, milk-drinking, follow-the-rules Mitt Romney cannot just internalize that sometimes people are rewarded for doing things that are wrong, which is the basic moral of... Like every children's book. I'm sure plenty of Mormon texts. Plenty of adult books. Yeah, plenty of adult books.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And you got to hand it to him now and just say, all right, well, Trump got this one right because he more successfully preyed on people's grievances and bigotries than I did. It makes me upset. Also, just one last thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Hold down the fort. There is enough news. The theme of the show today is going to be pre-capitulation and people's just total unwillingness to buck up for the fight ahead of us. It begins with our friends at ABC News. The backstory on this, for people who haven't watched it closely, is I guess George Stephanopoulos
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
A great deal. Here's one more. Joe Biden posted this over the weekend. I have no idea why. He wrote this. I pray to God that the president-elect throws away Project 2025. I think it would be an economic disaster. I believe the only way for a president to lead America is to lead all of America. Again, what is this? What is this? Why are we doing this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Why are you doing a smiling picture with Donald Trump? Why are you doing a post about how you hope that he will throw away Project 2025? He's appointed all the people that did Project 2025 to the administration. And then you're singling out the economic part of it. What are you even talking about? It's just this fake, nicey-nicey shit with Trump is endemic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It is like from the Disney people to the sitting president to Romney. They're all doing this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Oh, we pray. Maybe Donald Trump will turn the corner. Year 9. He'll throw away Project... What are you talking about?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It does feel that way. You talked on the conversations with Bill Kristol with Jack Goldsmith, who is over at Lawfare and a Harvard professor who knows this stuff well. I'm just going to cop to the fact that I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. It's on my list while I'm in between trips to the bathroom tonight. But did Jack have any insight on that front?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
He talked about how Trump was found liable for rape and technically he was adjudicated as for sexual assault in a civil suit. And the judge in rendering the verdict on that did essentially say, did say that colloquially what we're talking about here is rape. The judge said that during the judge's verdict, but it was not technically the case, you know, based on the actual verdict.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Excited to listen to that. We'll put a link in the show notes. From big events to silly moments you capture every day, doesn't it sometimes feel like all your favorite photos are just stuck on your camera roll? Wouldn't it be great to have an easy way to share and enjoy them with friends and family? That's where Aura comes in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
I was posting them on Instagram for a while that, you know, now that I'm a content creator, my Instagram has been overtaken by my takes. And so, you know, you need a place to go. You need a place to spend the good ones, the cute pictures of my daughter, you know, the fun pictures with my pals, because I still get to have fun from time to time. And the aura frame is
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. I want to go and talk about a couple of news items or thoughts from the progressive wing of the Democratic Party and try to position Woke Bill Kristol as far left as possible just to prove all of your enemies right. Here's Bernie this morning on The Morning Show.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Huge. Sometimes I just, you know, I was watching the clip and I was like, you got to hand it to Bernie. I don't know. I want to hear what Bill Kristol thinks about that. It's hard to argue with that right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
So Trump sued ABC over this and ABC settled this defamation lawsuit for $15 million. And I just think this is going to have real ramifications. And I guess we'll just start there with your opening thoughts on that bill. It's really terrible.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
besides getting you and Bernie on the record as being on the same side on this one, was I'm sympathetic to the fact that this is actually a more fruitful ground for Democrats and all of us that are trying to challenge this incoming administration than some of this other stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
The brazenness in which they're doing this, just tying this back to the whole Romney thing about the middle class and the guy you're talking about, it's like... It didn't stick with Trump in the first term in any way that he had all these Goldman Sachs people around him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
But I feel like it's just so much more brazen this time that it feels like something that eventually people are going to be like, this is out of control.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yo, there's so much of our info out there on the internet these days. Something that we've been talking about. It's coming up in conversations I'm having with people who I think are taking additional cautionary steps in the wake of our new regime. So one product I've been telling them about, and I've even had a few gift subscriptions to give away, is DeleteMe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me, now at a special discount for our listeners and their loved ones. Today, get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and use promo code bulwark at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
That is joindeleteme.com slash bulwark code bulwark. AOC on the younger end of the spectrum. There's a lot of discussion right now about how she is trying to get a spot on the oversight committee and that there should be Democratic turnover. And the other congressman that wants that gavel is Jerry Connolly, more of an old line Democrat type.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Do you have any grand thoughts on whether the Democrats should be turning over gavels to AOC and be more mindful of generational change on the Hill?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, I'm of mixed views. On the one hand, I strongly believe that the Democrats on the Hill have been too timid over the last eight or nine years and that they should be much more aggressive in oversight and tactics.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And this is like the question that I ask every Democratic congressman that wants to come on this podcast is, you know, are you going to work with Mike Johnson and bail them out when they can't fund the government? Are you going to, you know, push investigations? I just think that they've been too timid. in particular on the Hill during the Trump era. And so will AOC be more, you know, aggressive?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Will she be better at getting attention for the corruption stuff that we've just been talking about? Absolutely. She also is, you know, she lets loose, which I like. But sometimes she lets a little too loose, you know. And if you follow her social media feeds, I mean, there's stuff that she does.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
I just don't think that gets that much attention now that I think would get a lot of attention if she was, you know, running this committee or running for president as far as, you know, kind of really.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
eye rolly type identity politics type stuff that she does some of her messaging around the luigi united health care thing was a little you know makes me cringe a little bit that's the kind of balance right i don't know you know but maybe you have to take the good with the bad and something like this but i do think that particularly for the oversight thing i'm not as unlike you i'm not as hostile to it as as one might think i agree with the way you put it
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, I've got some issues about that head to head, but we can do a 2028 hot stove another time. All right. Well, do you have any thoughts on the drones? People are concerned. People are seeing stars. Larry Hogan saw Orion's belt and thought it was a drone.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Twitter that saw lots of lights over the Capitol is very concerned. It was just those planes landing at Reagan. So I don't know. Do you have any worries? Do you have any friends on the inside that can provide any state secrets to our listeners?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
I think it's literally that, but I'm open to aliens. You know, it's been a weird month. So let's mix things up. I don't know. We might welcome them as liberators. We'll see. Bill Crystal, thank you so much for doing this on Sunday afternoon for me. We will wait. I won't see you next week. We'll be on a holiday next week. We'll see you in two weeks for the Borg podcast. Enjoy the holidays.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Borg podcast. I hope.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, it was Deborah O'Connell, the Disney executive who directly oversees ABC News, dined with Suzy Wiles in Palm Beach last Monday. To me, this is just... And we talked a little bit about this with Ann Applebaum on Friday. Just another example of these big... corporations deciding that it's just not worth it to draw any additional attention onto ourselves. We know that Trump is capricious.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
We know that he's vengeful. So let's try to just survive the four years. We'll tuck our tail between our legs. We'll mind our P's and Q's. A, there's no evidence that this is going to work. And in a world where you have corporate control over some of these media institutions like this, as you said, the chilling effect element of this is really staggering right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
You can't not assume that people in private conversations who go and speak about this stuff on the media and go and speak about Trump, especially people that aren't wealthy, that don't have the resources of Disney, might be like, it's just not worth it. you know, leveling criticism if it's going to bankrupt me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Several have committed a billion. Zuckerberg, others, Benioff. It's usually like the protection racket element of this, right? And it just ties all together. Like, Disney was going to win this case. And so to do it so ostentatiously, like, oh, we're going to contribute to your presidential library, sir. Let us go down on our notice, kiss the ring.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And can we contribute an additional wing to your palace that honors you? Can we put a statue? The whole thing is preposterous. And just back to the original point, just because I want to get it exactly right on what Judge Kaplan said about the rape. He said this. The finding that Ms.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Carroll failed to prove that she was raped within the meaning of New York penal law does not mean that she failed to prove that Mr. Trump raped her, as many people commonly understand the word rape. So again, like Stephanopoulos, I think, runs afoul of this by using adjudicate it. But it's a very fine line. And the standard, as you mentioned, for these public figures was
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
to defame in America it's very different in Britain and other places but like in America the standard of defamation is so high it's like really hard to imagine that they would have lost this and so like the manner in which they're doing it is just really horrible incidentally if they had lost they would have lost
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Very conspicuous as the Republicans against Trump Twitter feed that posted, I prefer to live in a country where the government fears the free press, not where the press fears the government. I thought that was really well put. Yeah. Because the first part of that is also an important category. Now that is another downstream effect of this Trump win is that the
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Republicans, and frankly not just Republicans, you're seeing this from Eric Adams, and I'm sure you'll start to see this from some Democrats. Now, because of the world in which we live, and because of the fragmentation of the media environment, the essential view of politicians now, I think, going forward is going to be, just ride out the storm. Who cares about this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Like, how much could it hurt me for the media to write about this? I think we're seeing this right now with Hegseth as a prime example of the cabinet officials. Any kind of media firestorm of this nature previously would have, would have led to just the quiet stepping down of the, of the nominee and replacement with somebody else.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It is, um, I think dangerous to kind of the, the short medium term of our body politic. If you are in a place where both of those things are true, the politicians have stopped being worried that they're going to be held accountable and the press who ostensibly exists to hold accountable, uh, is now panicked that they'll be targeted. And so they're not even going to do their job.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, and the bad news came right on the heels of the announcement that they want to make standard time permanent. So it was a really ominous 24 hours. Where are you on that? Oh, permanent daylight saving. It's my number one issue. Did you lose or for you? We did a whole YouTube video on this, which you can watch. But since then, I saw a graphic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Hello and welcome to Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday when you're listening to this. So we have Bill Kristol. It is Sunday and we're taping it. I'm hangry. I'm quite hungry, actually. I haven't been able to eat all day. I've got to clean out my whole system because I have one of those middle-aged men procedures tomorrow. And so, you know, if J.D.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And it's like in June now with permanent standard time, the sun will be coming up at 4.15 a.m., This is insane. Nobody wants this. We like our evening sun. Okay, I'm going to move forward. While I'm hangry, while I'm upset about daylight saving and ABC and Deborah O'Connell, Mitt Romney was on State of the Union this morning. God love him. I just kind of want to strangle him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
I mean, I want to strangle him like you want to strangle a loved one, though. Just like, why? Let's just listen. Let's listen to Mitt and Jake Tapper.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
So this is obviously enraging because it was the premise of him not endorsing during the campaign was that he wanted to have an impact on the Republican Party going forward. Now he's already conceded that that's over because Donald Trump won. I don't really know that Mitt's, given what we know about the election at this point, that Mitt's endorsement would have mattered one way or the other.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
That said, couldn't hurt. And the thing that bugs me the most about this, though... It's just going back to this capitulation. It's like, okay, well, it is what it is. I'm backing off my comments about how disgusted and horrified I am about Donald Trump and J.D. Vance. And even though I'm leaving the Senate now, I'm going to make nice.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And we're going to, you know, hopefully, you know, these are smart guys. I'm going to be able to figure out, like, what purpose is served by this? What is the point of this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It's just this false hope, right? Like on the one hand, the false hope annoys me, like this idea that, oh, we're going to be able to work with these guys. And, you know, who knows? It's better not to, you know, ruffle feathers. So let's just kind of see how it plays out. Like that part is annoying to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
In particular, because I just, I don't think that's going to be true, but more it completely, I kind of invalidates all the arguments against Trump and Vance that he made. He made these deep moral and ethical arguments about Donald Trump, the man about the way that JD Vance has humiliated himself about how the illiberalness of their ideology is wrong and,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Vance starts shooting at the drones or some other nominee is creeped on a woman for the cabinet and like that all gets announced Monday morning, you'll have to wait for my fresh take on Tuesday. So, me and Bill. Bill and I are both working through ailments for you on a Monday. How are you doing, Bill? I'm doing fine. Thanks, Tim. Good luck with everything tomorrow. I'm going to be fine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And like to just turn around then and be like, well, you know, they won. So we'll see how it goes. It makes people wonder, like, well, were you genuine before about when you made those arguments? Because how does A meet B? You know, and when you say what you want about Liz Cheney, when you see her doing interviews now. she's not backing off anything that she said before.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And you can throw in a sentence at the end that's like, well, I hope to be wrong. I hope to be wrong. Whatever. Great. I hope to be wrong. We're not wrong, though. And we've already been proven right once. We're going to be proven right again. And so why? It almost plays into their hands by saying, see, these guys didn't even believe it. It was just rhetoric. It was just political rhetoric.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
between Mike Johnson and the Democrats was scuttled by Elon's megalomania and possibly ketamine use. We don't know. Mike Johnson attempted to fix it by stripping down the deal a little bit and getting Daddy Trump on board ahead of time, which probably should have done the first time, gotten approval from Daddy. But even still, 38 Republicans voted against it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It was just so North Korea-y yesterday, like even more than usual. Just like, like there was just no underlying ideological message. Because they just wanted to win.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
They got to own them harder, you know? Well, they got to own Mike Johnson. Mike Johnson's the new lib, which is why I think he's on thin ice. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, the happy part of me is this kind of we get to sit here and laugh and point and chuckle at their incompetence.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The dark side of me is like, man, if it continues to be this kind of a shit show and things look really, really bad in two years... and we have an 80-year-old sundowning Trump, might then the cults decide that they need to turn to a darker sort of vision for the future. And that's the thing that really has me a little concerned about it. So there you go. Don't be too happy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
From big events to silly moments you capture every day, doesn't it sometimes feel like all your favorite photos are just stuck on your camera roll? Wouldn't it be great to have an easy way to share and enjoy them with friends and family? That's where Aura comes in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Named the number one digital photo frame by Wirecutter, Aura makes it effortless to upload unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone, so your favorite memories are always within view. Plus, you can personalize and preload an Aura frame for a truly special, unforgettable gift. I mentioned this yesterday, but this is a good example of what we're talking about, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You think about the oral frame. You think about the photos that you're going to send. You're like, oh, my aunt might need to see some photos of her life. But it's also fun just for your friends. It's fun for your office. It's a fun place to dump all these photos that we're talking about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
When I was in Longwell, Sarah Longwell's office yesterday, it's the photos from our bus tour, the Bulwark bus tour. It's the photos from people hanging out together in the office. You take all these dumb photos. What are you doing with them? This way, you can get an Aura frame, put it up in your office, and throw out the photos of you and your colleagues.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
They get excited to see themselves when they walk in. It was a great idea. So happy Sarah did it. Save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver mat frames by using promo code BULLWORK at checkout. That's A-U-R-A frames.com, promo code BULLWORK. This deal is exclusive to listeners. So get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
They're taking a third swing this morning. The last I saw, Florida Rep. Annapolina Luna said that they are not negotiating with Democrats, which means they're going to need to get every single Republican on board. And boy, I don't see that as very likely. But I'm wondering what your takeaways are from the shit show over on Capitol Hill and the possible government shutdown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You wrote for The Atlantic. I did. It's an appropriate place to write. You wrote about people who aren't engaged in politics and how to reach them. And so, obviously, the right place to go for that was The Atlantic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Even if we don't agree, the headline was the conversation Dems need to have. And so we're two white guys with podcasts. So we'll have that conversation right now. And it was even if we don't agree with the views of leftists or liberals or never Trumpers or mega Republicans, we understand them or at least think we do.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The people whose views we don't understand tend to be the people who simply don't follow politics that closely. And yet that's most Americans. And you're arguing that the thing that the Dems should be focusing on is how to reach those people. And you feel like the current The current trajectory isn't great on that count. So why don't you talk about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You know, you wrote about kind of in 2016 that there was a lot of like, well, there was misogyny at play here. And, you know, that there's obviously this conversation about how there's this misinformation and the disinformation of the Russians. And this time it's like, well, there could be racism and misogyny and inflation was a problem and Biden was too old. We're going to get to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And like all those things are kind of true, right? But they also are alibis. You know, they also are alibis to having to actually go out there and convince people that the other alternative for governing is superior.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
in other media bubbles and having people that have non-MAGA views represented in other spaces. I think I played the audio from my friend, from our guy Stavros, who's a comedian from, I think his podcast was called Come Town. And he went on one of these bro podcasts and crushed it. I gave the best answer that I've heard yet for not voting for Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I'll put in the show notes for people if you haven't seen it. But what is the right balance of vote? Where is your focus on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I'm a Wickler stan. I'm neutral on the DNC race. Nobody's knocked my socks off yet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
There was a bald guy on MSNBC talking about how the Democrats should learn more from Trump and how they should do tax cuts. The Trump tax cuts were really great. And he's running for DNC chair. I thought it was performance art. I saw it on the plane yesterday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
We're going to get him booked on Potsdam. America, he has some interesting points. Definitely more corporate tax cuts, I think, is the path back for the Democrats.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Awful, awful. Every ad that I've seen trying to target low-info voters is like, a parody of an attempt to do it. So like all of the ad wizards out there working on this, like you just got to start like throw everything in the trash and start from square zero.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You got to bring some people in the room that are like, forget about Tony Blinken. I don't know who Dan Quayle is. I don't even know what you're talking about. I've never heard of Jake Tapper. If you've heard of Jake Tapper, get him out of the room.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Hey, guys, if you listen to this podcast, you care about what's going on in the world. And, you know, we're doing our best here at The Bulwark as we grow to expand out reporting, reported commentary, no bullshit insight. But all of this stuff is based on people doing shoe leather reporting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
People going out there and gathering sources and going around the world and educating us about what's happening in the world. And one of the places that's out there still doing that is the Washington Post. And this podcast is sponsored by the Washington Post.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
When you go to washingtonpost.com slash the bulwark, our listeners can get an exclusive deal to subscribe for just 50 cents per week for your first year. If you listen to us, you know the great work the Washington Post does on a bunch of topics. We got Catherine Rampell that comes on. We got Carol Lennig. She's covering the Secret Service.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Probably the best reporter on the beat out there at the Secret Service. Across the board, my man Josh Jossie doing politics. Also, if you're in a rush and need to catch up quickly on the day's most important and interesting stories, the Post the 7 newsletter is a quick commute read sent each weekday morning. The Post even offers a cool feature for audio lovers like you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You can actually listen to articles in addition to reading them. So you can tackle your to-do list and catch up on the news at the same time. Now more than ever, it's important to stay up to date on the world. So go to washingtonpost.com slash the bulwark to subscribe for just 50 cents per week for your first year. That's 80% off their typical offer. So this is truly a steal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Once again, that's washingtonpost.com backslash the bulwark to subscribe for just 50 cents per week for your first year. Here's another concern I have about the low info ecosystem, particularly on the left, that some of the folks are getting radicalized in a way that I find concerning. I would as a former Republican.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
So, you know, maybe some libs can dismiss my views, but you're a Democrat in good standing. So I want to talk to you about this. I had a friend that texted me. Goodish standing. I had a friend that texted me, and I don't know why they were on the Pod Save America Reddit page. I don't know if you are ever, but apparently it was in shambles over your lack of support for vigilante assassinations.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Another person messaged me about how you, Jon Favreau, your Twitter replies were filled with people outraged that you Twittered a tweet about how the Democrats might want to moderate on immigration. I'm wondering what your sense is of the extent right now of the backlash on the left and whether some of the lessons might be to move into a place that's a little concerning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The assassination bothered you or the conversation?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Yeah, my big takeaway from that is that I think it says something nice about you, that you have your friends that are willing to be that honest with you to tell you that they don't think it might be that bad.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
One exception. Yeah. I mean, Bill Ayer's puppet, Barack Obama, did get into the presidency. So maybe it has worked one time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I'm going to be a little less generous to your critics than you are because there's a poll that came out recently about approval of Luigi's actions in this murder assassination. And if you break it down by age, it's just reverse. It's just reverse. The oldest, it has the lowest approval among the elderly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I think most of my friends would be scared to offer that opinion to me for fear that I'd browbeat them and get into a screaming text match or that I would derail the LSU game by yelling at them about their... about how sanguine they are in the face of the authoritarian threat. So that's nice.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Slightly more, but not really very much among Gen X. Slightly more, concerningly slightly more, but still not very high among our people, the millennials. And then, well, not Tommy, he's Gen X. And then... That's awesome.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
A big amount of support, like a third to 40%, depending on the poll, among Gen Z. And so, the people that have the least actual exposure to the healthcare system... Yeah, because if you're under 26, you can be on your parents' health insurance thanks to the affordable care.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Right. They're the ones with the most righteous rage... That just doesn't fucking square for me. I know that there are people under 26 or under 30 that have had horrible experiences with the healthcare system through their parents or through themselves or their friends. Certainly some. But the math doesn't work.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
At scale, if the healthcare system is so horrible and oppressive and we're at such a horrendous state that vigilante assassinations are necessary, then you would think that the people that have... had to experience the trauma of that for the longest and the most acutely. The people that have the most health problems, old people, would share the view.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
So to me, it seems like there is at least some bandwagon effect. Maybe there's some genuine rage among Gen Z, but then there's a bandwagon effect that is very real and alarming.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I like that about you. We'll get to that more. The lack of ideology. I'm here in, I should have said this at the top, I'm here in Phoenix for a maga cella. And I saw Steve Bannon last night and Tucker and Ben Shapiro, all your faves. Yeah. And so I want to talk about that. But your point It relates to what I experienced last night is there is no ideological through line here, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Okay. One more thing on this for you. It relates back to Elon. And this is something that I really struggle with as at the norms loving never Trumper is I think one thing that is objectively true is is that the Democrats cannot continue to be the party of the status quo. It's like we have to protect these institutions. We've got to save and defend them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
This hurts me because I think the institutions are working pretty good. They're not perfect. They're pretty good. I still have my small C conservative inside me somewhere, which is like, Maybe we should just keep the good stuff and not rock the boat too much, you know, because what comes next might be worse, you know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And yet, I recognize that politically, that's not very potent right now, to say the least. So, how can the Democrats regain this mantle of challenging the status quo, of being rebellious without becoming the party of vigilante assassination?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And today I'm here with the co-founder of Crooked Media, co-host of Pond Save America. You might have heard of it. He also has a podcast, Offline. He was Obama's speechwriter from 2005 to 2013. It's Jon Favreau. What's going on, man?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Speaking of Joe Biden, the Wall Street Journal had a story yesterday talking about how they were managing his age inside the administration. Early in the administration, there was a directive that meetings should be short. They tried to make them later in the day.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The Democratic chairman of the Armed Services Committee, Adam Smith, said he never got Biden on the phone one time, said he talked to Obama several times when he was a much less senior congressman. Jim Himes said the same. So these are Democrats on the record. Cabinet meetings were tightly scripted and barely happened. Donors noticed the decline on calls. Staff wouldn't show him bad news, I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
We're showing him clips that was only good news, according to the story. I'm mad about this. I was thinking this morning. When I think about the biggest political fuck-ups of my life, non-Donald Trump category, I was really thinking about this. And I decided that George W. going into Iraq was the one, two, and three. It has the entire podium on the biggest fuck-ups of my life.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Like the Republicans have voted against this. Like some of them voted against it because they wanted their little special line item that they liked that got cut out at the last second. Some of them voted against it because they don't like debt limit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Mitch McConnell not convicting Donald Trump in January of 2021 was number four. And Biden's selfish behavior this year is number five. or number three, depending on how you want to count it. I think it was just absolutely catastrophic and I'm pretty enraged by it. I'm wondering what you thought reading the Wall Street Journal story.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You might've put a number one. I went through every administration in my mind. I was like, I didn't really count. I was eight, I was six for Reagan when he raised that. So I was like, HW, Clinton. It's like Monica. No, this is worse than Obama.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Some of them voted against it because they just like positioning themselves as the craziest son of a bitch out there that just wants to burn everything down. They think that's a good brand for them. Elon, the difference between the two bills, what was it exactly that Elon didn't like about the first bill that he liked about the second bill? It's not clear.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I sat and thought about this too, their advisors this morning for a little bit. And I was like, I thought about myself. I put myself in their shoes. It's hard to put myself in the shoes of people like we're with them for 30 years. I never had that type of relationship, but there was, there was a second layer of people too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And I was like, I probably would have tried to position him as best as possible up until that debate. I probably would have done the same things up until that debate, I think. I probably would have been wrong to do it, but I think I probably would have. But there's no way that – and I can say this because I did it in 2012.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I went out and I said to a boss, I was like, no, I'm not going to go out and do this. I was like, I would not have gone out and spun – Like, oh, did you see the rally in Norfolk? Like how vigorous he was? I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have done it. I would have quit. And nobody quit. Like nobody quit. Nobody pushed him. Nobody forced it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Like some of them spoke on background at the New York Times. I guess it was maybe the best thing he could do. You know, from that. And then to me, like the grave sin of all this is that The thing that makes me the most upset really is that he, the selfishness continued, continues to now, right now, right? It continues right now to December 20th.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Like that when he finally came to terms with the fact that he needed to drop out, he needed to bring the vice president into the Oval Office or wherever they meet to Delaware and be like, kid, you do what you need to fucking do. All right. You push the old guy onto the train. Like we got to save this country. You do what you need to do. That's what he needed to do. And he did the opposite.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Like the whole year, he was like, they were whining to people that Kamala wasn't giving him enough credit. And like now after the election, he seems like they've been nicer to Trump than they've been to Kamala in the post-election.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It is a motley collaboration of people that is united really only by one thing, which is like... we'd like Donald Trump and we don't like the libs.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The message in that Midas Touch interview was just like, again, I think that's maybe the frustrating thing. It's like, I just, I think I cared more. I think I believed it more, the democracy stuff, than he actually believed it. I think that he cared more about his legacy than that, and that's very disappointing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Oh, brother, Favreau. Yeah, it's tough. And then people are like, well, I don't, you know, I get it. So we were like, I don't want to hear about this. I don't want to talk about this, but I'm like, I'm still, you know, probably when I'm 80 years old, I'm still going to be talking about all three of the things on the, on the list there. Yep. You know, like Iraq was quite a while ago as well.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It still comes up from time to time. The Mitch McConnell thing. I mean, if I see Josh Holmes at age 75 walking down the street, I'm going to be pointing my bony little finger in his chest. They're like, you did this. So, you know, that's just me. Maybe that's not it. Some people move on. That's just me. All right. I've set you up for the crying now. Okay. You're emotional. You're mad at Joe Biden.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You're thinking about the health care murder. When you started keeping it 1600, Barack Obama was still president. Yeah. So that was a while ago. How are you feeling about all this? Yeah. You know, like, you know, if George Stephen Hoppus has Joe Biden, how would you feel at the end of the election? How do you feel about doing all this every day?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You haven't had a moment of doubt in the last month that the American idea is an American idea worth fighting for?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Are your hopes not capped though? Okay, sure. Yeah, sure. I still have hope. I still hope things are better. But like, is there not something fundamentally changed about your, like, do you feel like you've lost some of your capacity for it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I forgot we have that in common. You were a Jevi too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
A more Favreau-ish, hopeful podcast host would end on grace. That'd be a good place to end. But I want to take one more pass at you about trying to, I want to try to rip this hope from your soul one more time before we go to Christmas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It's just something I just thought about for the first time this week. Teddy, when he goes to school in like five years, and they have on the wall, they have the picture of the presidents. Donald Trump's going to be on there two times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he is. Two times. And so, like, it's going to look up there and it's going to be like, look at this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Look at this great list of white men who fought for everybody's right for liberty and pursuit of happiness, equality. These great people that you're supposed to aspire to. And the worst person in the country. Like, really, America's worst human. Only two of the last three.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
That's the best you can go? You're a good dad. Seriously. I was hoping, though, in unseriousness, to get you to downgrade America in the Obama spirit. Belgians think that Belgium is great, too. Malaysians think Malaysia is great, too. We're just not actually that special. I was trying to get you to downgrade us in the spirit of what from whence you came.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
But no, you're still feeling the American exceptionalism in there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
one or two or three or four republicans at most at least for the first couple months while they fill out those special elections so yeah it's not going to be easy for them the musk thing do you have thoughts on on chairman musk i mean he's he's the shadow president uh potentially the speaker of the house also the largest government contractor yep
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I appreciate all of you, all my friends out there. They're like, ooh, have you seen this story? Yes. Have you seen this? Yes. I've fucking seen it, okay? I'm online, all right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I'm going to tell you this. This is what I'm going to do. And this is a step up for me. I'm not going to bring it onto the mountain. That's good. How about that? Like at lunch when I'm skiing, I'm not going to be on Twitter. So that's it. I still will probably be tweeting on Christmas night after I've had a few drinks. We're looking for progress there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
All right. Jon Favreau, thank you so much for a good show, a long show, kind of a meaty show for everybody. Since I'm gone next week, people needed every single second of this, and I hope they enjoyed it. Everybody else, you have a Merry Christmas. We'll see you back here Monday. What will it be? Monday, December 29th. Because of the bulwark, we work.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
you know okay this is america we work here we have the good old fashion republican work ethic john favre will be back for you with pods of america i don't know what february 14th or something after a little french january 6th we're back january 6th big celebration yeah it will be wild bye tim we'll see y'all later if we make it through december
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It seems like there's some potential conflicts there. I think in the same Mike Lee clip that you referenced, you talked about how Musk could drain the swamp. Is there a precedent for somebody that is this deep into all of the different levers of government in addition to owning a media platform, a social media platform?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
He's also on the take from the Chinese. I'm going to be bringing that up with Steve Bannon when I see him here in a couple hours. That feels like something that could potentially be a conflict, to have the Speaker of the House and shadow president and biggest government contractor also being on the take from the Chinese.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
We're going to hold a lot of space together, actually. At the very end of this podcast, I'm going to endeavor to make you cry like John Lovett did when he was last on. I'm telling you, you're going to have a tough time. His tears were on Jesse Waters' show. So if we don't have a clip from this podcast show up on Jesse Waters' show, it is going to be a disappointment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I want to get more into the Jon Favreau anti-corporate populist in the Democrat section before. I'm curious your take on whether this is usually what you would ask me on Pod Save America, but we're going to flip the mic around. What's with these Republicans? Do you think Mike Johnson can survive? I want to play you a clip from my buddy Bannon last night.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Kind of a half-hearted no there from the crowd, but still didn't hear a lot of yeses. Do you think Mike survives?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You know, he doesn't really fit also. I mean, Elon with the drug use and like the many, why like both Elon and Trump have the many wives, the womanizing, they, I think like naked women, it seems like Mike Johnson, on the other hand, monitoring each other's porn intake. It's a key difference. It doesn't feel like, you know, if you're going to bro down, he's the guy at the top of the list.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Steve, later in that clip, said he doesn't have the moxie.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Well, if you're concerned about the gerontocracy... That would be Actually it would be Appropriate Passing of the torch In the late American Republic From President Biden And President Grassley Yeah That gives us something To hope for Keep up the energy Do you think he'll stay Do you think he'll survive Johnson I think it's 50-50.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And I've been saying, I think because of inertia, I'd put it a little bit above 50-50 just because it's like you can't beat somebody with nobody. It even took a long time to get rid of Mike Kevin, even though they wanted to get rid of Mike Kevin for a long time. It's an impossible job. So it's not like if there was a clear...
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
MAGA alternative with Moxie, who was an actual congressman, not Vivek Ramaswamy in this big forehead, then sure. I think they could get rid of him for sure. For him to survive, his challenge now is he's going to have to squeeze out this CR with just Republican votes, unless the Dems bail him out. The Dems aren't going to bail him out, right? I've been kind of impressed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I think I did. I don't remember. Or maybe I was sensitive about it. I might have not sent it because I felt bad for it. But it's been a few weeks, so now the scars have built up. No, I think it's funny. We'll find the archive. Before we get to tears...
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I will say, the Dems have shown some backbone on this. You could imagine a different Democratic Party that would have been a little bit
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I've been impressed with the Democrats. I wanted them to let him walk the plank, and they have been letting him walk the plank. It's an impossible job to begin with. And while we're just being happy for a second before we kind of get into the depths of despair, I do think about like the lame duckness of Trump might limit his urbanist power somewhat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is the last daily Bulwark Podcast out of the year. I'll be back. I'm not like my guest who's taken off, who knows, a whole month, I think, working on French time. I'll be back the Monday after Christmas. But next week I'm going skiing. I need it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And so that's kind of a double-edged sword because on the one hand, I think, again, it will, you know, maybe prevent some of the authoritarian stuff we're worried about. On the other hand, it might make them start doing some of this. I want to play a little bit more from Bannon last night. And one last thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
msnbc fuck you nobody watches more msnbc than that guy and your mother i mean like they're the top two msnbc viewers on the marketplace and he still so so it's a little performative there to be like fuck you but they're gonna have to start doing this don't you think like pretending like trump might run again in order for him to maintain his hold or is that is that wishful thinking
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And before we get to talking about your Atlantic article about what the Democrats are doing wrong, which might also lead to tears, we need to talk about what's happening on the Hill. By the time we have this podcast up, the state of play might have changed some, but biggest picture, here's what we got. There was a bipartisan deal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Mike Davis wanted to put me in the women's prison, he said. I think that's a pretty good deal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
If we're going to suffer, we might as well suffer together. My only other observation from all this, which is related from last night, is... You know, the signage at this place, this America Fest is all confirmed Trump's cabinet. It's just total Trump cultish hagiography. The speeches are all over the place.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I mean, literally, it's like Ben Shapiro gave like what could have been a Paul Ryan speech with like 20% of Mr. Trump. You know, God's hand is on Mr. Trump, like put on top of the Paul Ryan speech. And then Bannon is like a wrestling ski Trump 2028. Then Tucker's like, you know, kind of we need to go after the big banks, you know, and then like Ben Carson is like, there's no coherent through line.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Yeah. And I do wonder, before we get to your suggestions on what the Dems could do. am I being Alan Lichtman-y to just think that this might just burn itself out? Like maybe the Dems just need to let this, let this burn itself out. It's like burned really hot and they got what they wanted. And now, you know, they've got nothing left to fight for.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
We have to get our we have to get our chuckles, the absurdity of this when we can. I do want your take on this because Voice of America, which he was which Trump had nominated her to run. Domestic folks might not just really even understand the remit or the importance of that. So I am curious your take on fake news, Carrie Lake running the Voice of America potentially.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
She has journal. I mean, she has technically, she has a local TV anchor.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I think it's three and three.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I'm not that optimistic about the board. If Marco Rubio is the tying vote, I don't know, maybe we will have Kerry Lake. It will be a good investment for the Russians, you know, to then having the head of the American VOA also being sympathetic to their messaging. The NATO Secretary General this week gave a speech, Mark Rutte, issuing a warning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
He said, among other things, we are not ready for what is coming our way. In four to five years, the Russia economy is on war footing. You know, obviously, with your husband, the government officials in Poland, talk to me about kind of the view from our NATO allies here in December 2024.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Yeah, it's interesting. It is that conventional wisdom outside that some deal is coming, but it's now my colleague Bill Kristol, Michael Weiss, now you. This podcast is the home for skepticism of Putin's interest in a deal because everybody has echoed your point of view on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I want to talk about another news story related to the Russian desired sphere of influence over in Central and Eastern Europe. And that's a story out of Romania, which I kind of have mixed views on. I guess the basics of it, and you can correct me or add more color to this, was that there was Russian interference in this election, particularly via TikTok and via influencers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
More accommodating, maybe. The best spin you could put on this, right, is that these rich guys are saying, okay, four more years of this, maybe we can butter him up and feed on his ego and get some stuff out of it, and then we're done with this guy. That's probably their calculation, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
There was money in the Romanian elections that went against the laws. And so... they called off the election essentially. Like I said, I have mixed views on it, but I'd like to hear your perspective.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
So kind of like a Ceausescu meets RFK Jr. type candidate.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
My daughter will be devastated to hear that as a big carbonated water consumer.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Obviously, some of us feel like the risks maybe are greater than that, but how do you assess that and what the You know, what may be a more effective way to deal with a aspiring soft autocrat would be?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
So challenging, because as I'm just listening to you describe the situation, instinctively, my view is this is bad. Nullifying an election because of disinformation leads to just myriad other problems and loss of trust. On the other hand, it's like... what is the punishment for breaking local election law? It's like, what is an appropriate punishment, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
In this case, the candidate hadn't won yet, but imagine a case where they can, right? Like then they're controlling the government. What is the balance between this decision to nullify the election and, as you said, our American Vegas rules politics where anything goes?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
And it's also just to be fair, it's like hard to imagine. Look, it's not like America hasn't tried to involve ourselves in other countries elections before in the past. Like it's hard to imagine like this situation where Western Europe or European country is like, Oh, we're going to nullify all the elections because the Americans were putting their thumb on the scale. Right. You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Like it's hard to, starting to think about like a way to adjudicate it consistently.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I want to move on to the Middle East before we lose you. You wrote about the collapse of the Assad regime, the collapse of autocratic regimes tend to happen gradually and then suddenly, slowly, and then all at once. You led the story in a nod to Hemingway.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
You also wrote on one of these social networks, I forget where I saw you writing this, it's a bad day for the international network of dictators who live in similar palaces. So the video of the Assad palace being stormed. Just wondering your thoughts on what happened in Syria and the ramifications.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I want to close with one tough question I've been noodling in my head. This has all been heavy material, but similar to the Romania question, this one is one that's hard for me to see clearly the right path, but over the past year, God, more at this point.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Many in sort of the pro-democracy kind of space have had issues with Bibi and his corruption and the way that he has had some Trumpian and Orban-ish behavior. But if you look at the past year now and the weakening of Iran and the weakening of Hezbollah and Hamas, almost elimination of Hezbollah, Do you look at that situation any differently?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I mean, do you assess Bibi any differently than maybe you would have a year or two years ago?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
It's very well put. I'm glad I asked you. I've been noodling on this one in my head. You're bringing some clarity to three points that I think I... fully concur on all three. Well, Anne Applebaum, I think there's going to be much to discuss around the world in the coming years, so I hope you'll be coming back to the Borg podcast often.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I guess we had happy news with Assad, but maybe with some other happier news in the future.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
It was beautiful. The video with Clarissa Ward, I'll put it in the show notes. People haven't seen it. It's really heartwarming. He was such a depraved bastard. So anyway, getting rid of him. And I hope he enjoys the winters in Russia. Anne, thank you so much. We'll be seeing you soon. Everybody else, we'll be back here as always on Monday with Bill Kristol. See you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Fine. Fine. We're fine. We're here. We're doing fine. I've got to be more precise in the opening greetings, I think, given the nature of affairs. I want to start with the seductive lure of authoritarianism. Because it's more seductive than maybe I'd even anticipate it. Domestically, we've got a series of rich people who have pre-surrendered to the incoming regime.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
The tough thing to figure out is who exactly are the naive businessmen that think that this is going to help them and who are the ones that are on board with the dismantling of that system and the dismantling of that trust. And to that point, Peter Thiel, we know which side he's on. He was on with Piers Morgan the other day. And I just want to play one clip from that interview.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
The Ancien Regime there, the liberal order is over. And I think in Peter Thiel's mind, it's going to be replaced by the autocratic order, maybe the techno-feudal order, I don't know, of him and Elon and Marc Andreessen with Donald Trump as their puppet. Just wondering your thoughts about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
And to Peter Thiel if you looked at his face for the YouTube viewers. He's trying to pretend like he's not part of the ancien, but he's looking pretty ancien too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Bezos and Zuck have donated a million to the inauguration. Mark Benioff, who was a resistance CEO for the first time around at Salesforce, went on Maria Bartiromo's show, Maria Bartiromo's Coup Hour, and said, I feel that when we elect a new politician, we have to absolutely support them. This is a moment where we are turning the page. It's an opportunity for a new chapter.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Yeah, I guess I would. I don't think Peter Thiel is listening to me, but I guess I would caution him. You don't really know what exactly is going to replace the current liberal order. You know, excuse me from being a defender of the status quo. But it was funny to me that later in that interview, peers asked him about the Brian Thompson murder. Peter was like, I've never seen a stutter.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
He had like 25 seconds of stuttering before he finally said, I think we should use words to settle our disputes. It's like, well, when the liberal order, when the ancien liberal order gets overthrown, it might be a feudal techno oligarchy, but it might also be something else that they don't like.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
On the corruption front, we also had Trump in the Middle East. In our newsletter this morning, Bill Kristol and Andrew Egger write about how Trump's son, Eric, the executive vice president of the Trump Organization, made an announcement about the unveiling of a new Trump Tower in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Yesterday, the New York Times wrote about the dividing line between Trump's family business interests and Trump's power. Eric Trump was in Abu Dhabi celebrating his dad's move to unleash crypto. as the family helps launch and profit from a new crypto investment. Obviously, we know about Jared Kushner's investments in Saudi. I want to play a little bit from Chris Murphy and get your reaction to it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
You have covered all of this from the European perspective. What's happening with our domestic oligarchs here?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
And Trump's insight on all of this was, If you just get through, if you just power through the round of bad press or the initial investigation or attacks from the counterparty, and there's no impact on anyone's lives, then eventually people will get over it. This is related to Steve Bannon flood the zone with shit. As a tabloid guy, he knows this. He went through the scandal cycles before.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Couldn't be more delighted to be here today with a staff writer at The Atlantic. Her books include Autocracy, Inc., The Dictators Who Want to Run the World, and Twilight of Democracy, The Seductive Lure of Authoritarianism, as well as the Pulitzer Prize-winning Gulag, A History. It's Anne Applebaum. Welcome back, Anne.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
It's like if you survive it and get out the other side, then you can continue to press on. And like in the past, politicians had folded when they would get New York Times investigations about their family business, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I hadn't gotten to Tiffany's father-in-law, but since you mentioned it, I do feel like I should at least read the headline for people if they had missed it. Trump's Middle East advisor pick, who's Tiffany's father-in-law, is a small-time truck salesman. He had lied. It's like a George Santos situation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
He had acted like he was a billionaire dealmaker, but he has a tiny stake in an African truck company. Let's be honest, what most people really want from the holidays is to see their favorite people more often. Favorite people. Maybe not everybody, but you want to see your favorite people more often.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
And that's why this year, the best gift you can give, besides a plane ticket for all your friends to some foreign country, is an Aura digital picture frame. Named the number one digital photo frame by Wirecutter, Aura frames are incredibly smart and easy to use, allowing you to upload unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Plus, you can order the frame online and preload it with photos and videos using the Aura app, so it's ready to go right out of the box. We're going to be talking about all week going into Christmas because, look, Christmas, you want to be able to bring a little joy into people's lives. I don't know about you. I'm grinding right now. I'm on the present grind. I'm trying to come up with good ideas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I've got a couple of good ideas. You know, and then for some people, you're like, I'm struggling. I'm struggling. If you're struggling with somebody, particularly if it's an aunt or a grandparent or somebody that you don't get to see enough, Aura Digital Frames are the answer.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
So, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames by using promo code BULLWORK at checkout. That's A-U-R-A-FRAMES.COM, promo code BULLWORK. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. You mentioned Carrie Lake.