Tim Miller
Appearances
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And I think it's very complicated to then say, okay, well, this is not Iraq, right? Like Ukraine is different. Like we don't have troops on the ground. We're not trying to do regime change. We're trying to defend an ally. And that helps us because, you know, if Russia successfully overtakes Ukraine, that's going to demonstrate weakness, you know, to the, you know, rules-based order.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And that could cause threats to us down the line, right? Like it's just, it's a complicated point to make. Especially in the face of really pretty bipartisan, increasingly, opposition to us playing this role in the world. And so to me, the obligation is then, this is what Trump has unraveled, is that there were a number of things that
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
that are not really popular among the whole country that leaders in both parties continued to do, such as USAID, because it was the right thing to do and because they were responsible leaders, right? And sometimes... that is required. This is not ancient Greece. We don't have a direct democracy on purpose. Not everything should be decided based on 50% plus one vote.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
You want to talk about Mardi Gras instead?
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
If that is true, I would have never gotten married. That was an opposed vote until the Supreme Court did it. Eventually, sometimes leaders have to do things that are unpopular because they're the right thing to do. Maybe sometimes they get held accountable for that. Trump, because he doesn't care about any of that, doesn't like
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
have really core values or empathy or care about the American idea, doesn't believe that exists, only believes their American interests, has wiped away all of that. And so I don't know that the Democrats could have you know, just by making their messaging better, you know, changed people's view of this or, you know, broadly America's role when it comes to aid.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So, I mean, I think that you could probably give a few of them some lessons on how to make those arguments better, having watched you on The Five and having watched some of them. But I don't know that it would have actually made the difference in this case.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It was a failure. And I don't, I mean, obviously Biden's inability to deliver a message had ramifications. Like what, you know, in this case, was that, you know, was that the key difference? I don't know. But I mean, I think it was a problem across multiple verticals and it relates to the Democratic stuff now. It's just he was not he was absent. Right.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And there was a moment in 2020 where I think people were so fucking sick of the news and Trump and COVID, like the idea that Biden wouldn't be in their lives every day was kind of people were like, that's a good thing. There were at least some people out there that that was an attractive.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It's a good question. I think that they are doing a lot of stuff that people who read Hill newsletters and who know a lot about what's happening in the federal government don't. I think they are seeing Democrats. I think that anyone who's a casual observer of politics is seeing only Donald Trump and Elon Musk and Travis and Taylor. I think that's like the material that they're getting.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
But like over time, as crises unfolded, as inflation happened, as the invasion of Ukraine happened, as 10-7 happened. You know, people need somebody that can talk to them, right? And to deliver a compelling message and that can, you know, demonstrate leadership traits or demonstrate strength at least.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And I think that that was like kind of missing from the last couple of years of the last administration.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I never compliment Trump. So it's just how you want. But like guy has been like there was this thing on the left and like resistance world like during the campaign that was like Trump is just as old as Biden and Trump's brain is putting to and like the media. It's so unfair that the media is making the Biden age thing like the only thing that's like I keep saying I don't think that is true.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Like Trump gives off crazy energy, not old energy. He just does. And since he's been in there, I didn't know. I thought it was an unknown. Might Trump win and just be so happy that he's not in jail, that he's just going to golf and go on the NASCAR track, which he did, and do the fun stuff in the accoutrement of the presidency and not do everything else? And that's been the opposite.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
He's given more press conferences than anybody. I lose track of all the press conferences he's done. I missed one on Friday. He's talking to the media all the time. And that is how to do it in the modern media age. And I think that that is something that those of us who oppose them could learn from.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I kind of just see Taiwan going the same path as Ukraine, right? Where there is some resistance inside the administration that like wants, you know, wants us to be stronger in that case and that there's some resistance among Republicans on the Hill, right?
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Resistance may not be the right word, but some views among Republicans on the Hill and in the administration that are more hawkish on Taiwan than Trump's itself. But Trump was asked about Taiwan at one of his 100 press conferences we were just talking about recently.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And he goes on a rant about how they've been stealing our jobs and how, you know, jobs for the chips need to be coming back to America. Yeah. And I just – if you just looked at the tone of his comments, it didn't sound like the tone of somebody that's ready to put American defense power on the line to protect Taiwan. And I just don't see how a Trump-Vance administration –
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
who has just laid the groundwork with their followers that they only care about us first. They only care about American interests first. We shouldn't care about what's happening on the other side of the globe.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
If a conflagration happened with China and Taiwan, I just don't know how they can go to their supporters and be like, oh, yeah, actually, we need to put in a couple hundred billion here or, God forbid, troops or ships or whatever. I don't I don't see it. Marco might be trying to fool himself into thinking that Trump sees China differently because it's a bigger threat.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
But I think that if push came to shove, we'd see pretty much the same thing we see from him on Ukraine.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
That's that's how I see it. And I think Trump likes that, actually, too, by the way. I will say this. I think Trump doesn't mind if people are confused. You know, like his his he is.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah, right. And so I think it's I don't think that he's like mad at Marco over this. I think that he's like, well, you know, we'll keep them on their toes. Like that's part of Trump's mindset. And my point is just like if push comes to shove. I don't, if I'm Xi, I'm like, these guys aren't going to go to battle for Taiwan. That would be the bet I'd be making.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And so I don't know if they're snoozing so much as they're not yelling. And I feel like they could probably benefit from some yelling that resonates outside of
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah, I mean, the asymmetry is just so obvious. It's almost like, you know, it's like dog bites man to even mention it. But like, yeah, I mean, look, so in part, I actually would be defensive of the other mainstream outlets saying,
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Like, because I think that if ABC and NBC and CBS said we're going to boycott in solidarity with AP, I feel like the Trump administration would be like, OK, peace, you know? Yeah. So it's kind of like the conservative outlets need to do it.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So I don't, you know, I mean, that's like the situation. And I think everybody should just be aware of like what time it is and what's what's happening out there. As far as like the more interesting part of this, and obviously there's the First Amendment threat here. But to me is. How all in these guys are going on what I call patriotic correctness?
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It's not just enough to stop doing pro-DEI activities. They need to snuff out anybody that is using words or language that they don't like. And to a preposterous extent. The idea that everybody has to use the new name of the Gulf that they just changed one minute ago, or else they're going to be banned, is ridiculous.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
The singing. The singing.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And in some ways, it's ridiculous as some of the most extreme things that you see on the far left on PC, like demanding that people... you know, use, you know, use Latinx or whatever, right? And so I do wonder if it's going to backfire on them eventually. I don't, are people really for this? Like it feels, it feels very mockable.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So obviously it's serious, but I do think they are like very much being responsive to something that only like a tiny group of far right trolls who are super online actually care about. And I don't know if that's like a path to long term success for the right.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I'm open to singing in the right kind of context, you know? I'm open to singing and chants, but, you know, maybe we could work on the language of the chants a little bit.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So you do think that's conscious? Like, they're like, hey, you know, this isn't going to last forever, this, like, gloating honeymoon, and so we want to, like, rub their face in shit for as long as possible? Like, there's a little bit of that?
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
We've given, the gays gave away YMCA.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I wonder, is that true, like your comment about how they're owning the culture now? I can't figure this out. Like, is that actually true? Or does it just kind of feel like it's true? And maybe that's a distinction without a... Would I be able to know the difference? Yeah, maybe that's a distinction without a difference, right? But I'm kind of like...
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Is it just political obsessives who feel this way? I mean, did people's lives really just change? Like, did they change, like, their mindset on this sort of stuff, like, overnight? I don't know.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I know, I made it official. It was a long, it was not a, you know, it was not a battle in the culture war we expected. But it was a battle that was thrust upon us. And I think for a moment during the Biden era, we felt like we'd taken YMCA back. from the Magas. And unfortunately, I think that is one L we just have to take.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
You can tell we're millennials with those references. That's good. I know.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It's interesting. I mean, that goes against, you know, my entire, like, everything in my body wants to reject that. Like, you know, because I'm like, things are as they are as things matter, actually. But it makes me curious about the Fetterman kind of model, because that's kind of what he's doing, basically, which is like mocking...
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
like progressives who are like hyperventilating while like just basically voting with the democrats all the time um and i don't think that every democrat should act like that but i do wonder if there is some potential efficacy to having a couple of democrats out there who have more of a slacker energy to try to break through all right let's take a quick break stay with us
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It's over now, and the village people and YMCA, despite the fact that that is a song about cruising in gay gyms, the Magas have taken it from us, and I don't think we're ever going to get it back. It's unfortunate. I don't think you're going to hear a lot of YMCA at Gay Pride this year.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Maybe not as closely as you, but I have been following it. You're into it. Here's why I'm into it. Hagen Scotton, who's the guy you mentioned, who said that I expect you'll eventually find someone who's enough of a fool or a coward to file your motion. This guy is like a special forces dude who— Three Bronze Stars? I think two, maybe two, whatever. I'll give him a third for this if he only has two.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Um, but who clerked for, so I believe he was Kavanaugh and Roberts. And then, um, uh, Danielle Sassoon, uh, who's the original person who read the letter to Emil Bove. She was Scalia, a Scalia clerk, uh, both. I mean, uh, both like Scott and his letter. Kind of subtly implies that he likes Trump. I forget exactly how he put it, but he was like, I could kind of see the perspective.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
He's like, some people might be quitting because they're really upset with this administration. Like, that's not me. And I kind of see how a businessman could think this was a good deal. It's just not legal. Like, that's like the TLDR summary of his letter. And so the fact that it's these two people who are FedSoc folks who are stepping out.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
You know, so they're like conservative legal folks who are just saying no, who are like standing up and saying, I'm not going to go along with this. And I think that's pretty powerful. And it comes at a time when I don't know. At least maybe just me or maybe just the Bulwark people are like thirsting for people to be showing a little bit more backbone right now.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Abracadabra by Lady Gaga instead. I think you'll be hearing a lot of Abracadabra.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And so that's kind of why I've been following it less on like the legal nerd side, but just more on this is kind of how you do it as far as standing up to illiberal actions.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I think so.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I was in and out. I was watching White Lotus and I was, you know, podcast prepping. So I caught a little bit of it. I really liked a couple of the Eddie Murphy segments. Eddie Murphy being Tracy Morgan was hilarious. Eddie Murphy doing some borderline inappropriate prison rape jokes with Will Ferrell in like one of the very last segments. I also really liked. Those are my big takeaways.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah. And we also had a U.S. attorney down here in Louisiana who quit. I think that there are a lot of those warning signs happening. I mean, this guy, the character that I've been watching closely in this thing is this, I kind of hate saying his name, Emil Bove. I kind of want to call him like Emil Bove. I don't know. It's kind of a pretentious name for a MAGA.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
But anyway, Bove was the person who in the Sassoon letter, I think the most powerful thing was like in the first footnote where she was like, Someone was taking notes in the meeting where they told us that they were going to, you know, about the deal on the prosecution. And he collected the notes at the end of the meeting, which is like no note taking, which, you know, feels very fascistic.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Though also kind of dumb sort of. And I guess a lot of times fascism is dumb, like dumb. It's like, OK, well, the notes are gone, but I prefer it when it's dumb because at least we can talk about it.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah. And so but he's the same guy. who is at the center of the FBI firings, right?
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And there was a whistleblower, and if you saw that over the weekend, where, you know, they were saying that Kash Patel lied during his confirmation hearing because, you know, the note-taking in that meeting, the FBI meeting, said that Bove had said that Kash Patel had, and Stephen Miller, were the ones that were asking for this.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So they have this, like, kind of henchman in at the DOJ, and so I think that it is pretty... It is good that, you know, because there's always this debate, right? Like, should people like this stay? Would we rather have Hagan, Scott and in there than whoever replaces them?
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And I think that in my view, it's actually better for these folks to, you know, kick up a cloud of dust here and like draw attention to this person so people can watch it. So it's not like happening, you know, behind the scenes and cloak and dagger.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Here's the thing that made me think it might be him. I was reading an article, and that quote is actually from a movie called Waterloo that's not from Napoleon, and it's like...
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I guess. It's like maybe apocryphal. The direct quote is from Waterloo, the movie. The movie was in 1970. And that, to me, feels like it could be a Trump cultural reference. He might have watched a 1970s movie about Napoleon. That feels like the thing he might have watched. But maybe not. I don't know. That was the only... Because I agreed with you. Initially, it did feel Musk-y. But...
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So my viewpoint, which is I think different from some of, from like kind of the conventional wisdom among democratic strategists is that like, Maybe in February of 2025, like the right thing to do is to fight these guys tooth and nail and to figure out what happened and figure out how things shake out.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And in 2026 summer, you can decide to be strategic and like figure out which issues are the right ones for the for the electorate. Like we don't fucking know what's going to happen over the next year. So just fight him and try to make him fail.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
my exception to that is like on some of these like there are a couple of policies which is the democrats like obviously got out way too far to the left away from public opinion and i just i do think sanctuary cities is one of them i'm i so like i was like the compassionate conservative bush republican i was i'm like about as liberal on immigration as you can get like i was part of the
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
group of Republicans that the Republican voters wanted to overthrow, unlike the kind of McCain view of the world of immigration. So, like, I am extremely sympathetic to immigrants and the plight of immigrants who are fleeing, you know, oppression or fleeing whatever and want to come to America. That's what America is about.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
That said, like some of the sanctuary, you know, like some of the sanctuary city stuff, it just got overboard. It was just kind of crazy. Like, and I understand there might be like a specific reason why it makes sense to not have ice in the prisons. But I just think that like fighting over whether prisoner illegal migrants who committed crimes in this country should be deported is like crazy.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
maybe one of the fights, I would say, I think you can take a pass on this one if you're with Democrats. So that would be... That's my view on that.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Here's the other thing. They are going to overstep on immigration. So here's the area where I would say Democrats do not like don't need to be overcautious. Right. Like people do not want dreamers to be deported. Right. Like people don't want that.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
People don't want like people who are in this country, you know, whose parents brought them to this country when they're kids, you know, to be deported or to be separated from their families. And there are already a couple of examples of like very sympathetic people.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Um, individuals who are being either detained by ice, like one, like there's like a guy in Newark who is a veteran who is like detained by ice.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Um, and so I, I think that there are going to be ways to fight immigrate, you know, immigration from a humanitarian standpoint that, um, are beneficial for Democrats and, and they should choose those fights rather than fighting over whether prison deportations happen or not under the administration. Yeah.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And this is, to me, and this is what I would say, local is fine, but what you're doing is, I think, probably the most useful. Like, on Fox and on conservative media platforms and on culturally conservative platforms, again, people have this totally wrong view of what, like, the Manosphere podcasters think about all this stuff.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah. Yeah. Like you give specific examples like the ones you're giving, like they're 80% issues. Like people do not want most people besides racists and like extreme, you know, far right freaks do not want people detained for speaking Spanish in this country. Like that is not something that is popular actually.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And so if you can focus on a couple of those examples and bring them in to the lion's den, I think that is, like, a much more useful way to spend time than having a press conference on the Hill. I know Jared Moskowitz I saw was on Fox over the weekend. I just think that, like, more is more on this stuff.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I missed that clip, though. Oh, you've got to watch it. I will immediately be going to the internet after this to watch that.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah. Well, it elips to God's ears. But yeah, the prime example of this that I saw recently was Zelensky did the Lex Friedman interview. And like, if you just look at the comments on Lex Friedman's YouTube, which is like, he is, he's like MAGA in the Musk way, right? Like he is like contrarian or whatever. He's not like a far right. He's not like a social conservative. You know what I mean?
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Like he's like a contrarian. So he's in that sort of ecosystem. And so it's like that is a mostly anti-Ukraine ecosystem. Yeah. Zielinski does the interview and like there were a lot of people in the comments. So we're just kind of like, huh? Like, like, oh, I was expecting to hate him a lot more or he made a couple of points, you know, like, so anyway, it's worth doing that.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
How'd I do in the banter section?
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I am anti-Cuomo. I think that he handled COVID atrociously in addition to just all of his personal misdeeds. I maybe have some personal bias. I've got some friends who are in conflict with Andrew Cuomo, let's just say. And so I think he's kind of a creep. I will say, though... Like, Democrats need more people who are like Cuomo who talk normal.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And he talks Italian, but you can tell he's being authentically himself. He doesn't talk like a fucking valedictorian kid that's trying to appease the bosses in a PowerPoint presentation. And I think that Democrats could learn from that. And I don't, you know, I don't I'm no fan of his in particular, but I think that that is people want it.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And I won't I wouldn't be surprised if he's successful in the mayor's race.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah, there's no future. Yeah, there's no future. There's no present. I felt this way for a while. I'll give you a little scoop. I don't know if this is a scoop. Anybody who cares about me would care about this. Nobody else would. But I was planning on writing a book that was the shorthand pitch for it was Trump is forever.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
that I just like, I feel like that, that the MAGA, that the Republican voters want Trump or something like it, right? Like whatever comes after Trump, if he ever goes away, you know, will obviously not be a carbon copy of him because he has like a lot of unique traits and eccentricities.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And like, it's, you know, you've seen how hard it is to copy them at the local level and how that has failed in a lot of ways with, you know, Carrie Lake and others. Um, but, uh,
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
But directionally, like the idea that of America first, of fighting these culture war battles, of not caring about norms and institutions and, you know, not caring about like the traditional, you know, free markets and free people ethos of the 80s and 90s, 2000s Republicans, like all of that is gone, right? And it was already going to be gone, even if Kamala Harris had won.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
um because that's just what that parties are just parties are not actually permanent coherent ideological groups they are a reflection of a group of people and that group of people can change over time and it might change them up might change the nature of the party and trump has massively changed the makeup of the republican party and as a result that will be in his image for at least you know until the next realignment for probably a quarter century or something so i
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I just think that is what's happening. I think that there'll be individual fights on the outskirts, right? Like you mentioned this Wall Street Journal article, which was an attack on him over tariffs and pushing for lower interest rates given threats for inflation.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
You know, if we get into a more normal future in 2028 where Trump doesn't try to run again and like, you know, there's a primary, there will be some people who are like Trumpy or pro-tariff and there'll be some people who are more traditional, free market, conservative on trade. And on some of those issues, you know, it won't. always fall on the Trump side of the line.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I think that there will still be little skirmishes in the ideological coalition, but directionally, things are to Trump. And people, nobody is going to stand up to him except for people like Mitch McConnell, who are already one foot out the door. And that's basically what we've seen for like a decade now.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah, and the Joni Ernst thing with Hegseth was the, was really, you know, I think the test case, yeah, for this, I mean, I was in Iowa, so I worked in Iowa on a couple campaigns. I was in Iowa, um, uh, like during when all this was happening, it was like about, and I was like at a event with a lot of Republicans.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Um, and, uh, and you know, it was like in between when she had spoken out and when she had kind of folded. Right. And there to a, to a person, I could not find a person at this event that thought she was going to hold the line eventually. And there were some very pro Joni people there. Right.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And, and to people who like her and wish she would have held the line across the board, MAGA to people who are like me who are, who are elapsed. Uh, everybody thought no, because, uh,
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
the voters wanted you know want trump to get what he wants like that's what they want and so she was just getting totally bullied online phone calls and i think the other senators really saw that i think in addition to that i do think these private meetings trump and then basically said to the nominees just tell these people whatever they want to hear who cares we'll figure it out on the back end right again because these are not rigid ideologues like it's it's that is not what trump is
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So I think that helped, you know, give a rationale to some of these senators to do the easy thing. And I also just, Jesse, I just fundamentally don't think anybody was going to actually stand up besides McConnell, who's one step out the door. And Murkowski and Collins will choose their spots because they have kind of a different sort of brand.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Everybody else, I was with Gates at a TPUSA, I go to the TPUSA annual gathering every year to just kind of Well, you live in Fox World. I don't. I want to make sure I'm not in my little bubble, my little resistance, you know, former.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
No, no, no. No, it's fine. The types of people who go to those sorts of things are the people you got to worry about are the people who are alone in their basement getting radicalized, honestly, like people that show up to a gathering. I've at least I've found them to be relatively sociable. I had a few people shit talk me, but I never felt unsafe.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
That's hilarious. So anyway, I was with Gates and I was like, why did you drop? Like I was like, because I think that you were going to get through. And Gates was like, well, John Curtis, the guy from Utah who replaced Mitt, told me, and it wasn't an interview, so I wasn't taping it, so I forget the exact line, but it was something like, I would sacrifice my children before I would confirm you.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It was some very ostentatious comment. And so Gates was like, I didn't think it was clear I wasn't going to get through. And I said to him, I was like, eh, Curtis would have folded. And I, like, really think I'm right about that. Like, I do think that there is a lot of behind-the-scenes people, you know, trying to use the little influence they can without creating any backlash.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Like, when push comes to shove, like, the voters are where their voters are. And so, like, that is why you're not seeing any, like, the Todd Youngs of the world actually stand up.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
That's a popular opinion of me. I say that to the Republicans I talk to all the time. I don't Fewer and fewer of them actually want to talk to me. So, you know, maybe that's part of my influence isn't working. But I'm like, you don't have to be me. Like, I'm not asking Republican senators or congressmen to troll Trump online, you know, to try to own him, you know, to like fight everything.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Like, there's a huge space between me and like total submission. And it's just like they've kind of decided to abandon that whole space. Like, there's just nobody that has decided to try to occupy that and succeed. And I think that's wrong. I mean, Collins, I guess, is the example.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Like, I don't really love Susan Collins or everything that she's done, but she did manage to occupy that space in between total never-Trumper and total Trump sycophant. And it worked for her. She was like the only senator. Well, this cycle a couple happened.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
But before, you know, during the first Trump, she was the only senator that won and went the opposite way as the state, you know, in 2016 and 2020. Yeah.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
No, I think that was a worthwhile use of dollars for Sarah Gideon. I don't know if you gave any money to Jamie Harrison or that might have been a waste.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I loved it. Good to be here. We'll do it again soon. Peace. Bye.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Well, as a, I guess, cradle neocon, I don't know if the neocons exist anymore. I have a ton of thoughts about this. First, just really quick, because I think it's got lost and I'm obsessed with the crypto element of everything that's happening. The hostage trade, or
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
What got missed was the person that got let out on our side was like one of the original crypto scammers who was running a massive crypto scam that allowed Russia to, you know, avert sanctions, you know, by paying for things, you know, using crypto rather than, you know, cash and going through the regular banking system.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I only say that just because everybody should just like make a mental note of that. Because I think that the crypto corruption that is coming over the next four years might end up being one of the biggest stories that happen.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Well, no, it's related. The Trump coin, it's all related, right? Like, I mean, Trump launches this coin.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah, for sure. And so obviously, they're bad people getting traded and all of these things like Victor Boot got traded during the Biden administration. So I and I'm happy Mark Fogel is home.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So it's like less a commentary on like the particular trade than just like it's interesting where the priorities were like that the first Russian person out is this crypto scammer person doing the deal Steve Witkoff, his son is business partners with the Trump kids on their crypto scam, right? So That's not a coincidence. I'm not the always sunny guy putting yarn against the wall here.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It's a pretty direct connection directly to Trump's pocket. The broader deal, the sad part about this is that we appear to be on the side of the bad guys. I think that J.D. did some tough talk, but what is happening is we have this meeting in Saudi that you referenced. The Ukrainians aren't even invited. We're having a bilateral with the Russians.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
who invaded Ukraine and who we are sanctioning currently to try to cut a deal that Ukraine isn't even at the table for. And Europe is having a separate, you know, the Europeans are having a separate meeting at the same time. As you mentioned, Keir Starmer, like the UK is out there saying, we're going to put boots on the ground, if necessary, peacekeeping troops to support Ukraine.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And so like in this moment, like we're getting some mixed signals from the We're sympathetic to the invaders, to the autocrats, to the people that were attacking a free democratic country. Whatever you thought bad about American foreign policy in the past, this is a massive shift. This is not just a bad judgment call.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It's the fact that it seems like that we're supporting the countries that are in conflict with what the American values have been in the post-World War II era. So at the top level, that is the thing to me that's the most striking.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And when you looked at these press conferences, both Hegseth and Trump, I can't remember if Vance was asked this, but definitely Hegseth and Trump were asked, as part of these negotiations, what are you asking Russia to give up? And neither of them could answer. Hegseth gives like a two minutes of gobbledygook because you know that he couldn't come up with anything.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And Trump starts attacking Europe. during the answer to that question. And so I just think that kind of tells you all you need to know.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Are you and Pete pals? Were you guys drinking buddies?
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I'm Tim Miller.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Hey, banter. I'm just happy to be in here for Scott. You know, I think that I'm going to be a downgrade in certain manners and upgrade in hair. You know, we'll see what the people think.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
No, I mean, Rubio has been basically a full-throated defender of the Trump push on this. And in that pivot...
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
for him has been you know kind of happening gradually over time since 2016 when he was you know kind of the candidate that was running you know the most maybe even more than cheb like the most w with like the most bush compassionate conservatism like uh type platform of any of the candidates and so i you know no i who knows what how things actually go i guess it's better that rubio is
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
There in Saudi Arabia than some of the other potential people who could be there from the Trump orbit. Maybe there are things happening on the margins that matter. And like you said, Waltz was a very traditional, you know, type of, you know, type of Republican candidate. It is in the House as far as foreign policy is concerned.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And I interviewed Tom Malinowski, the Democrat from New Jersey last week, who's a pretty kind of hawkish Democrat. And so he was like, when I got to Congress, I was looking to Republicans that I could work with, like where we might have some overlap on foreign policy. And he was like, Waltz and Stefanik were the two people that I turned to. And he's like, Stefanik is totally gone now.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
native with the MAGA. And he's like, it appears like Waltz is doing the same. So we'll see how things shake out this week. But the signs are not positive. And it's really a sign of kind of submission to the Trump worldview from all these folks.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't see us as the top partner opportunity either if I was him. Yeah. No. I think Europe will. I think it could be a positive outgrowth of the Trump worldview that Europe ends up stepping up their game on defense and takes more responsibility. I don't want to say they're not taking any responsibility for their own defense, but actually...
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
you know, sort of take seriously the fact that they might have to go it alone at some point. And you've seen this from people from Europeans at the Munich security conference, leader NATO said something to this effect, which was pretty, uh, secretary general rather, uh, which is pretty alarming.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It was fun. It's good. I mean, I'd rather be raging with you guys than... Maybe you have a view on this. I think not raging with the Dems on the Hill. I'm not feeling a ton of raging. Yeah, snoozing.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So I think that that's possibly positive, but like, okay, that has potential massive negative ramifications for us. You know, I mean, I was, um, Let me pull this up. There was a woman who is a journalist in Ukraine whose quote just really kind of dropped me on my feet over the weekend. She said this. Her name is Anna Merlikina. She's from Mariupol and had to flee to Kiev.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
She said, when you live in a world that is crumbling under your feet, the only thing that helps you survive is to believe in guidelines and civilized democratic countries that uphold values. When countries like the United States cease to be pillars, there is nothing to hope for. I mean, that is a jaw-dropping quote from somebody over in Ukraine.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And I just think that's reflective of how people in Europe are going to see us. And I just believe that there'll be negative ramifications for that down the line. We don't exactly know how or when. But, you know, I think that Europe will kind of decide that they should be prepared to go without us.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah, I'd rather be raging with the moderates than snoozing with the progs.
Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov
What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
On this one, I'll let you make fun of the Democrats' communications and I'll take responsibility for my people because I think possibly no because of Iraq. Honestly, like I do think that it was just such a debacle that there, you know, within the country, like there has just become an increased skepticism or like hostility to the idea that we should be involved. overseas in foreign conflicts.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 932
What do you think about going to a porn store five nights a week with a pizza? He brings the pizza into the porn store, goes into the back room, and he's there every night.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 932
What was he watching back there, do you think? I don't know. Have you ever been in a back room at a porn store? Never one time? Are you sure? Even before the internet? Even before Pornhub?
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
Doesn't this kind of just the way you describe it then just made me like really see that it's illuminating the possible shared reality that might not be aligned. So one person might be in a different place connectivity wise to their other partner and And that is why the conflicts happen, because maybe the 90 percent of the time Glennon and I are fine.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
It's because we are connected and we do trust each other and we do give each other the benefit of the doubt. And then this other period of time, maybe one partner feels a little less connected. And so when these moments happen, it's like, what is not just the wound, but like, what is the actual state of where we are as a couple?
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
The way that you explained it made me think of like creativity on one end of the spectrum and And reality and truth on the other. So you're saying an artist, their job is to look out and see what is true, what is happening, and to be extraordinarily honest.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
And I think that that's one of the things that I think about you that I respect and admire so much is your ability to see what is happening and to be honest about it. So many of us, myself included... We walk around the world and I want to pretend that reality is somewhere more in the middle, in between a beautiful version, a different version of heaven. And then artists live on the truth side.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
And what you're saying is the vision is over on the other side of the spectrum. And the anxiety, I think, lives when you are just in the noticing of what is. rather than trying to go and create what it could be. So does this make any sense? There's a spectrum and one side is the way things are and the other side is the way things could be.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
And that gap is where some artists might experience this anxiety where you're closer to the way things are before we get to the way things could be.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
One thing I remember was a concern of yours when you were at the early stages of your eating disorder diagnosis and the recovery was this kind of,
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
correlation between anxiety and creativity and that when you are tapped into this kind of anxiety and depression and all of that comes with it, I think that there was a part of you because you're an artist and you do kind of, and have kind of swayed between these two poles. I think you were nervous if you were going to actually get well and maybe you
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
deal with this anxiety and depression, that would there be any creativity left? Could you muster the creativity? Is the anxiety something inside of you that's creating the creativity?
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
I think that this is like really interesting and helpful the way that you're kind of framing it, Sissy, and you too, Glennon. And I think one of the things that I've noticed in our marriage that this happens to us because Glennon also likes to have fun and the wit and who can like land the thing the fastest, like that's part of our marriage dynamic.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
And I think that rather than focusing on for us... Hold on a second.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
No, I think that we do have a way with each other that the way we... Sometimes we tease and we like have fun and... I do. I think that we're like playful with each other. 90% of the time. Here we go. It lands. And then there's this 10% gray area where it doesn't.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
And Susie, I love that you're talking about the specificity of some of this like jokey, teasy behavior, because I think that's really helpful. I also think that sometimes the 10% gray area just has to do with where we are both at in our collective day, in our collective emotional state. And so it's this being in touch with your partner. And sometimes Glennon will have to say like, I'm in the 10%.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
And so it's like really helpful for me to be like, okay, like, cool it on any kind of jokesies. Or teasing. Or teasing thing.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
Yeah, well, this is what I was going to say. I think it's important to actually think about the way in which we're all trying to connect in this jokey, teasy way. Because I think all of us tend to do it
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
But what I have actually figured out, which is maybe why you don't think that we tease or joke very much, it's because I actually think that the teasing and joking is trying to communicate something actually real without saying, that really bothers me. It's a cover. And then the partner gets defensive, like, no, I was just joking. Were you?
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
systems you know talking about who knows what's going to be happening with this bird flu going around like the other services i got news for you there are a lot of red state mega americans that rely on various government services in different ways right and i think this like the way in which they're going about this i think betrays a misunderstanding of something that trump like just kind of got instinctively and that they don't because they have an actual ideological perspective
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
We also just went through sequestration, by the way. You know what I mean? If we're going to get really nerdy about the budget stuff, like the real budget problems are the big ticket items, right? Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Defense.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
So I know a stray as well. I don't know. You know, we're just, we can't help the people. So maybe we're going to help the feline community. All right. You've got a new pod. I do. Mona Charon show. I've had a couple of episodes now. So I want to give you a chance to talk about that, what the goal is, and then we'll get into the parade of horror. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
We already sort of did the, again, there's more stuff that could be cut, but like the sequestration that happened 10 years ago sort of covered a lot of the doge, the things that would be under the doge remit. I did want to bring this up. So we both have been kind of dancing around it. I had Chris Hayes on yesterday. I've got my friend Tehran Tommy Vitor on tomorrow.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
So I was like, we've, we're sandwiched. We got libs all around us. And so I did want your kind of perspective on this. Like, I don't know. My conservative muscles were flexing a little bit when it came to the letter goes out from Elon or not from Elon, but from Elon, you know, that's saying people, all right, you got to actually come into the office to work.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
And if you don't want to come into the office to work, then that's fine. We'll pay you an eight month severance.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
and you can leave and there's a lot of outrage about this and there's a little part of me that was like i don't know it seems like it seems like a pretty good deal it seems like a pretty good deal i don't know there are other problems with it but i just i'm wondering are there any any of your uh your conservative muscles flexing when you're hearing stuff like that
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Yeah, just do it. No, but they can't. They can't. Because again, it goes back to the contradictions of Trumpism. There's certain stuff that is liked in a lot of this. Yeah, I'm with you. Just so my position is clear on all this. There's some really dumb DEI stuff. We've been covering this. I do think that, and again, it's like terms, what rubric.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
There's some value in the federal government in certain elements of this, right? Like the CIA needs people that can speak different languages, right? The FBI, it should be good for them to have a leadership program. for people that come from marginalized communities, from urban centers. Like there's certain elements of it that are pernicious and certain that are good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Yeah, and I feel this way about the firings too. Like if there were actual smart people and experts, if they're going to do this how they did it and, you know, The fucking American president or in the Clinton administration or in the right. You know what I mean? Like Democrats used to do this, right? They would be like, we're going to bring in experts. We're going to review the books.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
You know, we're going to look at to see, you know, which of these programs are outdated or not or not efficient anymore, not working. We're going to offer people severance and let them go. Sure. I'm for all that. I'm for all that. It is that these guys have taken that from us because what they are trying to do with this is not actually make the government more efficient.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
They're trying to bully good and smart people out of the government so that they can replace them with Buckley Carlson, Tucker's son, or whoever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
All right. There you go, people. Sorry. You have to hear about entitlement reform if you're going to come to the Bulwark podcast. All right. You got Tommy tomorrow. Okay, Libs. All right. We're going to do a little entitlement reform once a week. You also wrote this week about birthright citizenship. I did want to just talk to you about that just briefly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Because the way that I was drawn to conservatism, like birthright citizenship was so entwined in kind of like me as an 80s, 90s kid growing up, like the conservative worldview, right? It's like this, the shining city on the hill, the greatness of America. We want people to come here. Like that was just really directly to me tied with my identification with why this was, you know, an appealing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
movement and it is now like that part is just gone now and so i was just interested in hearing you kind of talk about that because i think to some people particularly younger people if you're one of those kids of the mega tp usa thing that i went to the culture is so changed and the rhetoric has so changed around conservative politics that it's probably hard for them to even understand why a conservative would be for birthright citizenship you know um so anyway i just wanted to hear you riff on the article a little bit
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Did you see, just really quick on this, did you see Caroline Leavitt yesterday? That was the first press conference.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
I got to give her one thing. She was much better than Spicer. Okay. So kudos to you for being much better than Spicer. And she also, this will be just for my elder millennial listeners, Mona, so I don't know if you ever watched Cruel Intentions, but She has the Sarah Michelle Gellar vibe from Cruel Intentions just down totally.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
I will say, I don't think that she has, in the movie, Sarah Michelle Gellar had in the cross necklace cocaine that she would do to kind of drive home the point about how fake it was. I'm not accusing Caroline of that. But besides that, she had the whole vibe down. But anyway, she just bluntly was like, yeah, this administration sees birthright citizenship as unconstitutional. It's like, what?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
All right. We've got to move on to the hearings we've got coming this week. I don't know if I've played the ranking game with you. Meg Seth's already in, unfortunately, so he's off of the board. But we've got Kash Patel, Tulsi, and RFK. If you had a magic wand and you got to protect the country from one of them, who would be first, who would be second, and who would you stick us with?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
The most recent one, which I was listening to, is Steve Vladek. It was interesting because he got into the legal questions of it all. There's just so much happening right now. We had the article this morning in the Bullard from Don Kettle. There's just this high-speed power grab. It's hard to keep track of everything. Part of that is because a lot of the stuff is going to get challenged.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
All right, we've got RFK today. As I mentioned at the top, we'll have a live debrief, a TNL live debrief on YouTube tonight at 8 p.m. And you can get that on the Next Levels feed tomorrow. But I want to just play for you a little bit, you know, maybe a little highlight reel of RFK.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
I love that one at the end. It's beyond his expertise. He floats the fact that our blood-brain barriers are being opened by the Wi-Fi. And in an interview with him, he's like, it's kind of beyond my expertise. And that sort of sums it up, right? I have a just-asking-questions conspiracist who's going to be in charge of the health department of the U.S., I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
How was life expectancy back then? Was it better or worse than now?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
We actually have a clip of that. Let's just listen to a little bit of that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
What were your main takeaways from that conversation with Steve?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln. Yeah. Whoa. She goes on to talk about his drug problems and says that he got over them, but many of our family members that he exposed to the drugs did not. And talks about his weird animal killing fetishes. And she also gets into the money. aspect of it and how he's conflicted.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
What a piece of... I just want to say I've been keeping a scorecard over here. One full curse for Mona, two near curses. Zero for me so far.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
It does remind me of the... It wasn't included in the mashup. My favorite Bobby Kennedy... is related to him vaccinating his own kids, is the time that he talks about how he goes hiking in LA and he goes up to strangers with children and tells them not to vaccinate their children. That is insane. Over the bear killing and the petting of the whales and all the, like the vaccine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Like to me, it's just like to go up to a mother with a baby and accost them about vaccination status. I don't, for whatever reason, that is the one to me that is the worst.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Well, I'm monitoring closely the senator from my state now, Louisiana, Dr. Bill Cassidy. I expect nothing. I expect him to go along and rubber stamp this. But I do want to say, people are like, there's no other alternative option. Cassidy, in Louisiana, we have a top two primary situation. So it's like kind of a different system where it's a jungle primary. Everybody votes. Oh, that's good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Cassidy voted to convict Trump. Yes. So I think Cassidy is boned. no matter what, if it's a straight Republican primary situation. People don't mention him. He is actually free to vote his conscience. He is a doctor. And to me, there is an outside chance. I don't think it's a great chance. There's an outside chance that he could run for governor in three years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
And get into a top two situation where it's like a MAGA person in him, where he gets a coalition of Democrats and normal Republicans. I want to say that's a very outside chance, but I don't think he's less likely to win going that route than by trying to MAGA himself after he voted to convict Donald Trump. So anyway, Bill Cassidy will be watching you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
No rank choice. It's like California. Everybody runs, all parties run in the first vote. And then the top two, you have a runoff with the top two. So in a place like California, you could have two Democrats. In a place like Louisiana, you could have two Republicans in the top two. Gotcha.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You mentioned we're chatting on Slack. Anything on the Trump pivot with regards to Russia and Putin and sort of thoughts on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Yeah. The statements coming out of Russia are basically... I think they think they have his number. There was a conventional wisdom that they thought they had a deal. That Putin was like, all right, I got this guy and we got a deal. I think they think, no, we can push forward because Trump's not going to find the political will to push back on us. So...
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
All right, everybody. Thanks to Mona Charon. I already mentioned we got time meet up tomorrow. And we've got a full slate over on YouTube of live streaming these hearings. Mona will be on for a little while tomorrow. I'll be on for a little while tomorrow. So come hang out with us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
One more thing, just as since we've been on coming across here, my colleague Adrian Carastillo has the story about Trump turning schools into an immigration battleground. It's heart wrenching. So you can go check that out at the bulwark.com. Thank you, Mona. Everybody else.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Tonight at 8 p.m., The Next Level is live for Bulwark Plus members, so keep an eye out for that link. It will be in the podcast feed for everybody on Thursday morning. And then Thursday, we're live on YouTube basically all day. Will and Sam in the morning, little Mona,
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
I had David French on, I guess, on Friday. I don't know how long Beg to Differ went. I don't know who I talked to when, but he pointed out that this court, at least the first time through, the court's been remade a little bit since Trump's first term with the Coney Barrett seat, but rejected the administration more times than any president had been rejected since, I think, FDR.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
And so he was maybe a little bit more bullish than sometimes you hear from some of our friends on the left, about the fact that that might be the case again.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
I was kind of wondering what you think, what Steve thought, because all of these challenges are going to come down the pike, whether it's when we're going to get into the offering of severance and the mass firings of people in the administration and the grant freezing. All that stuff is going to end up, the immigration stuff, all that stuff is going to come across their robed desks here eventually.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
cameo jvl and i in the afternoon at the end of all the hearings we'll have a wrap-up with the whole gang for bulwark plus members only you can join at the bulwark.com subscribe if you join you also get this pod ad free and you get a special secret podcast called just between us hosted by our next guest policy editor at the bulwark my friend mona charon hey mona welcome back to the pod great times isn't it yeah
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
I'm trying to just think one day at a time. I'm trying to think about RFK today. I hear that. It's hard to just have lived the last 10 days and think that there is a groundswell of people prepared to stand up and oppose Donald Trump if he disobeys an order that's kind of procedural and arcane that doesn't affect their lives. Right. You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Like maybe there's a certain type of thing, you know, sending the troops in places. You know, I think that there's there's certain types of things that I think would awaken the American people from their slumber. But on some of this stuff, you know, if he says, sorry, I disagree. I can't fire people. I can't fire bureaucrats at will.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
And the Supreme Court says no, and he's like, I'm going to do it anyway. I'm taking away their, whatever, past key codes to get inside the EOB or whatever office building they work in. It's hard to see mass protests over that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
The border, making sure our prisons had boys in one prison and girls in the other prison. That was pretty cute. Well, actually, I'm for that. I'm totally for that. Same, same. Yeah, that's fine. Well, I'm for it in most cases. I don't know. I think that we could probably make some case-by-case exceptions. But anywho, that was the third prong of his mandate.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Yeah. I want to talk about this. So let me just take through for the people who've decided that they don't want to follow the minute by minute of this and are getting their just afternoon updates here on their constitutional with the, at the board podcast, like among the things that you mentioned that have been in these executive orders that have led to this chaos and a lot of uncertainty.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
As you mentioned, this freeze on grants that was the first day read to be like a total freeze on all spending to all grants, with the exception of, as you mentioned, Social Security, Medicare, military. They updated that 24 hours later to...
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
you know, only include, there was like this weird line about like, we're freezing grants to non-government organizations that are not advancing the interests of America. It was like a very urbanist sort of sentence. Like, okay, what's that? Who covers, who counts in that? You know, so again, so it's still very vague.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
As part of that, the Medicaid system, I guess payment system was down for a while. I guess that's now back up. We also discussed there was a firing of, I think, over a dozen of the inspectors general. There was a firing of over a dozen people that were a part of the investigations against Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
That's true. I'm happy to have you. I guess this is an announcement for a couple of listeners who noticed the meowing on yesterday's podcast. I have a cat, too. So we have each other a cat. Many listeners have been upbraiding me for listening to the cat food advertisement where I say we have a neighborhood cat where we feed. And they're like, that's your cat now. You have to take it in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
There have been some pretty ham-fisted ICE raids, including detention of Puerto Ricans who are American citizens that Adrian has been covering for us. Then there was yesterday this... It seems to be written by Elon Musk because it's read exactly the same as what he sent to Twitter employees. It was the same subject line. There's a fork in the road.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Hello and welcome to the Bored Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We have an insane week ahead of us. The confirmation hearing of RFK Jr. is happening as I speak. Kash Patel and Tulsi Gabbard's hearings are set for tomorrow. This pod will be on the normal schedule, but we're doing some special programming to accommodate all the madness. So mark this stuff down.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
There's a message to people like, you can quit by February 6th if you want. If you just say resign and we'll pay you a severance. So all this has happened. And so there's the question of like, okay, well, what of this will actually end up happening?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
yeah affecting people you know in a month who's to say right because most of it is unconstitutional or illegal and the stuff that is legal is written in such a way that it's like we don't actually know how to interpret it because they don't they don't really know how to interpret it so to circle back to your question I think the more that they actually do, the worse it is for him, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Honestly, right? Because his best position in all of this is to put up a lot of smoke and have a lot of people like us clutch our pearls about it and talk about how fascism is coming. And then have not that much change in people's day-to-day lives. And then he's like, see these, whatever, these crazy alarmists and whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
The only people for whom lives are really changing are asylees and trans people. People that are vulnerable. But the vast majority of Americans don't experience it. That is his best position. If they actually do the Russ votes stuff, right, and like Meals on Wheels is shut down, I do think the more of that they do, the worse it is. And the more then maybe a backlash starts to emerge.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
That's kind of my view. I don't know what you think about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
And while I was snowed out in New York, my family took it in without me. So, you know, we have each other and a stray cat. So that's what we got.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Yeah, they're betting... Sonny Bunch and I were talking about this on Slack. The bet here, and this is from the Elon and Roosevelt perspective, is that they can do what Elon did at Twitter and say, I'm going to cut a huge part of the staff and most people won't notice any difference. There'll be some things that are annoying. There'll be more Nazis on the platforms. I don't want to minimize it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
The search function won't work quite as well as it used to. But like... All things considered, like most people's lives weren't disrupted by the fact that some Twitter engineers were cut. The government isn't quite the same as that, right? There are certainly some parts of the government can be cut where people's lives wouldn't be disruptive. But you're talking about payments to Medicaid, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
At great length, Steve Witkoff just, you know, useful idiot spin on behalf of Russia just straight down the line. So, our man in Amsterdam is like, at best, just extremely gullible. It's the best thing you could say. Maybe actively working against our allies. And then we've got this deal here.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Peter Baker, Trump agrees to start lifting sanctions on Russia even without getting the full 30-day ceasefire he had proposed. He accepted a limited halt to strikes in the Black Sea and on power plants and, you know, some lengthy then discussion about all of the now access to markets that Russia is going to have and the lifting of certain sanctions. Meanwhile, I don't quite get this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
I want you to explain it to me like military analysts are talking about how it really benefits Russia. The Black Sea Ceasefire particularly benefits Russia. Philips O'Brien, a military analyst, has a great sub-stack post where he's arguing that they basically put Ukraine in a box where Russia is now getting economic relief and a military advantage out of this deal. What do you make of it?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
So if they don't get SWIFT, what then do they get access to?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Es war interessant. Trump war gestern Abend auf Newsmax. Ich werde ihm das Audio seiner Stimme verschenken. Aber er spricht mit Greg Kelly, der vielleicht der verrückte Newsmax-Anchor ist, der eine kompetitive Kategorie ist. Und Kelly hatte einen seltenen Moment von Luzidität und hat ihn gefragt, wie Russland ihre Füße drückt. Trump hat gesagt, I don't know if they are.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
I'll let you know at a certain point. But I think that Russia wants to see an end to it. But it could be they're dragging their feet. I've done it over the years. I don't want to sign a contract. I want to sort of stay in the game. But maybe I don't want to do it quite. I'm not sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
And he goes on to say that he's encouraged by the fact that Russia had surrounded the Ukrainian troops and that they didn't kill all of them and that he gets credit for that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Ich dachte, du sprichst von Armin Hammer.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Und Putin hat uns nichts gegeben. Und das ist Teil der Grund, warum Trump, glaube ich, sich mit der Idee verabschiedet hat, dass er die umgekehrten Kursk-Soldaten gerettet hat. Denn wir machen Putin nicht wirklich nichts. Die Ukrainer haben noch nichts bekommen. Das ganze Deal.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Also, wenn du eine falsche Geschichte kreierst, wo du ein paar Ukrainer gerettet hast, dann ist das, wie du sogar die imaginerische Leder. Also, nur noch eine Sache. Es gibt eine Art von Verbindung zwischen diesen beiden Geschichten. Die Russen haben die Houthis unterstützt. And I do think that that adds to kind of the absurdity of it all, that Witkow was in Russia.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
So anyway, close us out on either of those.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Well, hopefully they're too incompetent to achieve their goals of rapprochement with Russia. I guess that's the best thing we've got working for us right now. All right. Thank you, my boys. I do need to, I should just say, my friend Jamie Kerchik wrote a very in-depth piece on the Armie Hammer cannibalism accusations. And they were overstated. And I don't mean to kink shame on here.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
So I apologize to Armie. Armand Hammer seems like was a little credulous, his grandfather. But Armie, I think maybe got the brunt of some bad, some bad media.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
No, Donald Trump declassified it with his mind, apparently. And there's so much here to go over. But just because, you know, the White House is already out this morning saying, you know, these are not war plans. They're still dying on this spin hill. As you mentioned yesterday in Congress, both Ratcliffe, that of the CIA and Tulsi, Sie bestätigten, dass das nicht klassifiziert war.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Yeah, I thought he was better than Tim O'Tay, but... Okay, Michael, you're not going to be invited back on the pod if there's any Timothy Slander. No, no shall I make Slander on the pod. All right, everybody, that's Michael Weiss. He'll be back soon. Crazy shit's happening every week. Up next, Ben Smith.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
All right, we are back with my buddy Ben Smith. He is the co-founder and editor-in-chief of Semaphore. He also co-hosts the Mixed Signals podcast. I was probably the best guest on that podcast so far. It's had a pretty good slate of guests, though. But, you know, I'm a good pod. Ben, what do you think? Am I on the podium? You or Anthony Fauci. The listeners are divided. Me or Fauci.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
I mean, Fauci has a lot of skills that I don't have, like a lot of experience that I don't have. I think in the podcast space might be the one area where I have them, podcast and basketball. This wasn't really the topic when we had initially planned to talk, but I had Jeff Goldberg on yesterday and we were talking about what he should do. I saw, you're not his lawyer.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Yeah, with the Huthi small group PC chat, but it was worth thinking about. And I think that the fact that he was weighing what to do was evidenced by the fact that he released the text about an hour ago this morning before taping. And you had kind of a similar kind of Ich wundere, ob Sie einen Hinweis haben, was Goldberg durchgegangen hat und wie Sie denken, dass sie es verhandelt haben.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
The call was easier for Jeff, is what you're saying, because it's verified and true. We know it happened because the building collapsed in Yemen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Ratcliffe sagte, es ist ziemlich bemerkenswert, der schlechte Erinnerung an den Direktor der Zentralen Intelligenzagentur. Er sagte, ich kann mich nicht erinnern, als er mehrere Mal gefragt wurde. Es ist alles ziemlich preposterös. Und ich sage es nur in diesem Kontext. Imagine if somebody involved in the actual execution of the mission, an actual warfighter, to use Pete Hegs' term.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Ja, und wer weiß, was für Anti-Fahrzeuge es sein könnte. Es könnte sogar noch schlechter sein als das. Was ist mit dem legalen Aspekt davon? Jeffrey fragte mich, ob ich die richtige Person wäre, ihm legalen Vorschläge zu geben, ob er diese Texte gestern im Publikum veröffentlichen sollte.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Ja, und ich stimme zu. Niemand sollte unsere legalen Voraussetzungen nehmen. Aber du hast mit all diesen Leuten gesprochen. Gib uns ein bisschen Aufmerksamkeit darüber, was diese Gespräche waren. Es ist ein bisschen unpräsent. In beiden dieser Situationen, du sprichst mit Experten, aber es ist ein Anruf, partly, oder?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Ich meine, wie Walter Sobchak gesagt hat, der Supreme Court hat die vorherige Verzweiflung rundherum verabschiedet. Aber wir haben jetzt ein neues Supreme Court. Du weißt es nie. Ich denke, wenn man sich die Diskussion gestern im Senat-Intel-Gespräch angeschaut hat, das war, boah, eine schreckliche Zeitung für Ratcliffe und Tulsi gestern da.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Die demokratischen Senatoren haben sie über dieses Thema unverantwortlich gefragt. Und es war bemerkenswert, dass sie nicht sagen würden, nein, er würde nicht für das verurteilt werden. Es gab keine Verteidigung der freien Sprachrechte von Jeff Goldberg gestern von der Trump-Administration, weißt du, an diesem Punkt.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
What a great country. You might say fist bump, flag emoji, fire emoji to the USA right now. Ich möchte noch etwas über das, was wir gerade gesprochen haben, nämlich wie sich die Medien in Trump 2.0 gegen Trump 1.0 verändert haben und wie es sich gestärkt hat. Ich frage mich, was deine besten Hinweise darauf sind.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Let's imagine this person is a DEI hire. Let's imagine this is a black woman. And she decides to text the Atlantic. Two hours ahead, the exact timing of when we're going to bomb Yemen. All caps. This is when the first bombs will definitely drop. I love that. And then it leaks.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Bannon's a mutual fan of both of us. I have lengthy tribute to your reporter, Dave Weigel, on a podcast like a week or two ago that I was listening to at an airport. I told Weigel, I was like, you have like a 12-minute ode to Dave Weigel of Semaphore on the Bannon War Room. It's an interesting show.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Untertitelung. BR 2018 ... Musik ...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Untertitelung. BR 2018
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Untertitelung. BR 2018 Untertitelung. BR 2018 Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Let's talk about Mace a little bit more, because I thought this segment of the book was the one that gave me a chuckle. So she really did, and we talked about this at the time here at the Bulwark, it just was kind of obvious, that she thought that she could be VP.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Aber es zeigt, wie intensiv all das ist, wie der Pivot dieser Leute ist. Sie ging von dem, dass, oh, wenn er ein Nominee ist, werde ich raus, bis zu dem, dass ich meine Medienstrategie komplett wiederholen werde, um auf Shows zu gehen, in der Hoffnung, dass Trump mich sieht, in der Hoffnung, dass, ich weiß nicht, er meinen Lächeln mag und ich VP werde.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Let's listen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Hat sie jemals Charakter gebrochen, wenn du da warst? Ich meine, es fühlt sich an, als hätte sie einen neuen Charakter. Du schreibst in dem Buch, sie hat jetzt ein paar Tattoos.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Die Demokraten, die du gesprochen hast, hast du das gerade bemerkt? Und du hast das schon lange gelesen, nur eine Evolution von, ich glaube, während des ersten Trumps gab es einiges von, oh, wir können mit diesen Leuten hinter den Szenen arbeiten. Sie sind sehr rational, sie müssen nur das tun. Und wir werden, etc., etc. Ich glaube, das hat sich verändert, oder?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
They both... Both kind of corny.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Chuck Schumer might be the exception, don't I'm saying? Given that what you've said in your book, you know, about him thinking that Trump fever could break. Usually there's in this reporting about Chuck talking about in the gym, how I talk to Republicans. Maybe a little different over there. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
That's correct. It's out of touch with reality. It's also out of touch with where Democratic voters are, but it's just out of touch with reality. Just look at what happened in the primary.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
I wonder what you make of the upcoming Congress. On the one hand, and the one we're in, Auf der einen Seite haben sie nichts gemacht. Und sie haben wirklich nichts gemacht. Auf der anderen Seite haben wir nicht gesehen, die Unruhigkeit, die du in diesem Buch schreibst. Zumindest noch nicht. Vielleicht ist das nur, weil The rubber hasn't really met the road on anything yet.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
I mean, Trump is just legislating from the executive branch, like a wannabe king, and there hasn't been any major legislation passed, really. What do you make of that? Are the things you observed in the books, you know, there under the surface, you think Trump's kind of holding it together tenuously?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Or do you think maybe because Trump's in there, you know, your man with rats in the walls and all these car salesmen might behave for a couple of years? What do you make of it?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Well, not to be Justin Amash over here, but also we haven't declared war on Yemen. So Congress also could take some power back on that side of things as well. They don't really seem to care about that. All right, Annie, it's good to see you. It's been too long. Go check out the book, Madhouse, how Donald Trump, mega mean girls, Matt Gaetz, other people broke Congress. Thanks, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
We'll see you soon, girl.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Alright, thanks so much to Michael Weiss, Ben Smith and Annie Carney. Let me know in the comments what you all think about the Triple Show. We'll be back with one of our faves. Maybe there'll be tears tomorrow. Who knows? We're gonna go along with a single guest. I think you'll enjoy it. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Hallo und willkommen zu The Bulldog Podcast. Ich bin euer Host Tim Miller. Wir machen etwas anderes heute. Wir haben drei Gäste, ein Triple Rainbow von Gästen auf dem Podcast. Und erinnert euch, es ist Montag, also könnt ihr mich und JVL und Sam Stein für Sarah Longwell auf dem nächsten Niveau anschauen, wo... We go long on all the politics and news of the day.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
And then the question is whether he did it deliberately. Michael, do they think that that is better spin? I guess it's because they hate the media so much and he can't... He's worried that he's going to be accused of being a secret deep state neocon inside the administration, so that's why he has to do this. But that is worse, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
The idea that it's like, oh, some Boomer magazine editor hacked his way into the chat where we planned our bombing campaign. That's their spin?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Your take on one other, maybe some of the folks you've talked to, I don't know if this has bubbled up in any chats you've said, but just me as somebody who's not involved, has never been involved in any military-type conversations like this. The Pete Hegseth Just kind of tone on this chat really jumps out to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
And on the one, just like all caps, this is when the first bombs will definitely drop, followed by we are currently clean on OPSEC, when there's an unknown number on the line. It's pretty funny as far as incompetence is concerned. Just over and over. You know, calling the Europeans pathetic, all caps, saying he loathes them.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Sharing maybe more information than he needs to with like the Secretary of Treasury, like all the people on this chain, being very solicitous. To me, it reads like somebody that like knows he's in over his head and is trying really hard to demonstrate competence. And it totally... Aber ich weiß nicht, was du meinst.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
But first up, it's our friend Michael Weiss, editor of the Insider, a Russia-focused media outlet, contributing editor to Newlines Magazine, formerly an investigative reporter for CNN, our unofficial... Crazy foreign policy correspondent. And we wanted to bring him in immediately because we've now officially seen the text. Michael Weiss, are these war plans?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Who is he talking to and what is the nature and content of those conversations?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Just really quick on the phone thing also, Tulsi Tulsi's asked about this in the hearing yesterday. Just body language, Tim, Doctor, like she Sie sah nervös aus. Sie war sehr ungeheuerlich. Ratcliffe war sehr traurig und hatte einen lügelnden Schmuck auf seinem Gesicht. Sie sah so aus, als würde sie schwimmen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Und Jack Reed, der demokratische Präsident von Rhode Island, drückte sie, ob sie auf ihrem persönlichen Telefon war oder nicht, ob sie im Ausland war. Und sie war so, oh, wir müssen auf eine Review warten, um das zu sehen. Und er war so, was ist eine Review? Sind wir auf deinem Telefon oder nicht? Und klar war der Direktor der Nationalen Intelligenz auf ihrem persönlichen Telefon.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Also auch im Ausland, in Bezug auf Witkoff, die in Russland ist.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
The White House is saying this is a hoax. These are not war plans. What do you make of it?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Die Branche beginnt mit Waltz, die alle fragen, jemanden anzunehmen, um für sie eine Repräsentantin zu sein, auf der Branche. Sie setzt auf Joe Kent, der ist dieser Kerl, der für den Kongress rannte, der ist ein totaler Kuckuck, der sich wie ein weißer Nationalist-Junglein befindet. Er begt für die Unterstützung der weißen Nationalisten. Grovers, er hat einige pro-russische Ansätze vorgelegt.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Er ist natürlich ein Wahlverdiener, sie sind alle so. Er ist also seine Punktperson. Es ist also nicht so, als hätte sie jemanden nominiert, der eine alte Hand ist, eine Intelligenzperson, um sie durch das Ganze zu bewegen. Und dann gibt es den VP, der, wenn Waltz erklärt, was passiert, in einer kurzen Summary und die Chains. Er ist so, was? Er ist so, was redest du da?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Er versteht nicht die basic Terminologie. Es ist wirklich, ich meine, die Keystone Cops sind zu schön.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
We've already accidentally released the first name and last initial of CIA agents already as part of the Doge effort.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
J'all, it's a crazy world out there. Secretary of Defense might be texting strangers about the details of weapon system attacks on foreign countries. When things are shaky, it's important to have a plan in your personal life. Bring stability where you can have it. A good way to start that is creating a trust and will.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
That's why today's sponsor, Trust and Will, makes creating your will easy and time efficient. Vielen Dank. Can save loved ones time and stress by having all your documents in one place with bank-level encryption. Live customer support is available through phone, chat and email. Uncomplicate the process with Trust & Will.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Michael Weiss, Ben Smith, and Annie Karni: Radioactively Stupid
Protect what matters most in minutes at trustandwill.com slash bulwark and get 10% off plus free shipping. That's 10% off and free shipping at trustandwill.com slash bulwark. Alright, let's talk about the Russians. So, Trump has agreed. I covered with Bill Kristol on Monday if people missed it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Yeah, that takes me to kind of the other thing I want to talk about. There's some frustration out there, I think, among Democratic grassroots, anti-Trump folks in our camp, the anti-Trump coalition broadly. The Democrats in this first five weeks have not been turning up the temperature as high as they can on Trump out of power. I'm wondering what you think about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
It does feel like there's some – because I think both proactive communication – Like you're talking about the PACT Act, but also challenging these guys and drawing attention and not like ceding the the battlefield to them on what they're doing. What do you think about that? What could you guys be doing different?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
What about my theory that you got to play a little bit more on Trump's turf? I mean, there's this notion that like, oh, you got to I'm here. I hear you. You should talk about the economy. You should talk about Medicaid. You should talk about eggs.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
But like Elon, you know, the shadow president has multiple baby mamas tweeting about how he's a deadbeat dad right now while he's while he's firing veterans and and also forcing the government to play for armored electric vehicles that nobody wants. I don't know, man, if that was happening on the other side, I think Trump would be talking about it. I guess, you know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
I'm not going after the baby mamas. I'm on the side of the baby mamas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
I need to talk to you briefly about crypto. You're the ranking member of the Digital Assets Committee. I think that you're, well, I guess I'll let you speak for yourself on your view on crypto. I'm like apoplectic about what's happening with crypto. And I think there's, I don't think people understand the degree to the scam that's being run, like between the Trump coin, Tether. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Tether is this so-called stable coin that people use for money laundering, terror financing, sanctions of Asia, North Korea, etc.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
is using it to get money howard lutnik our secretary of commerce is like a key player not anymore to divest but his kids are now in tether trump is this coin i mean like there's these scams are unbelievable we would not allow these skins in any other industries so like where are you at how do you balance like credible crypto with investigating these guys
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
But how are they going to regulate this when the fox is in charge of the henhouse here? I mean, Trump is running one of the biggest scams out there and like now he's appointing people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Finally, we're going to close. Dems are struggling with bros. A lot of talk about this. So Dems, come on. I have a bro talk segment. I want to see how you guys can handle it. So we have a quiz for you. Santa Ruben Gallego.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
I don't do sports gaming. Do you hit on 16?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
All right. That's good. So, all right. We have, we have a blackjack strategy. We can name it. Do you know, do you know what Zin is?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Do you think that bros that want to have coffee flavored Zin, do you think they should be allowed to, or do you think that the government should regulate that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Finally, I just pulled up the Nelk Boys Twitter feed. Here's their most recent tweet. Aiden Ross goes in on Kendrick vs. Drake beef and reveals his relationship with Baron Trump. Baron misspelled. Can you translate that sentence? Do you know what happened in this? Aiden Ross goes in on Kendrick vs. Drake beef.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Senator Ruben Gallego, a wonderful way to end. Please come back to the podcast. Thank you for joining, and we'll be seeing you soon. Gracias. Bye. All right. Up next, Zelina Maxwell. All right, guys, we are back with Zerlina Maxwell. She's a political analyst, host of Mornings with Zerlina on SiriusXM.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
She has a new subset called the Inner Work Dispatch, which is about working on your mental health. It's something that I'm working on and doing a poor job of. So we'll get to that at the end. But how are you doing, girl?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
All right. I don't know. I think I'm teetering, but we'll get to that at the end. We've got our first cabinet meeting today. Big news. Exciting news. We're adding people to the cabinet. There's a bonus person that is there. The world's richest man, a South African immigrant, Elon Musk, is going to be at the cabinet meeting. Trump just doesn't give a F about this. It's interesting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
There was a period of time where people were all like, oh, these guys are going to be fighting. There's going to be tension. I don't know. I think he kind of loves it. But what's your take on what's going on with that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
He sent a tweet yesterday about how Donald Trump chooses his words carefully. And that's why people that don't like him. You know, the whole thing is just it's like J.D. Vance is just so ridiculous. I'm interested in your take on this, like using your strategist hat to do people believe that he wants more money? It's something that I've been working through.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
What is the right way to talk about this? Maybe you convince people he wants to be the first trillionaire. Maybe he wants to be the first trillionaire. I don't know. Or maybe it's not actually about money. And what Elon Musk is doing is he wants total control. And he wants to be an unelected
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
autocrats that is in charge of you and he does not believe that you have self-determination he does not believe that people should have a right to choose you know what they want for their own government life like he thinks that he should be in charge because he thinks he's the smartest person in the world i don't know maybe that's like what do you think lands with people
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
I mean, he's in charge of huge parts of the government, too, apparently. I mean, like Trump is making these decisions. It's what him and Trump have in common. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Well, I'm excited to see how the cabinet meeting goes. You know, in the first one, it was everybody had to talk about how great Mr. Trump was, sir. Remember that in Trump 1? Yes, I'll never forget it. Do they go around and praise both of them this time? I don't know. I'm waiting with bated breath. Your point about the impact on actual people. On your show, you're doing Collins.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
You're doing call-ins. You're hearing from people. You're hearing from real folks. I'm kind of curious what that's like. But as part of those conversations, you've been posting some clips of people that are suffering real consequences from this. Talk about what you think the opportunity is there and what the real-life impact is from folks you're hearing from.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
That's interesting. The immigration politics of this, there's a buzzy article in the New York Times by David Leonhardt this week where all of the, you know, all the coastal libs are like, whoa, this is interesting. like they're just learning about something you've been working on. And he wrote about Denmark and met Fredrickson, who's kind of the center-left, but pretty left, really.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
And also they talk about federal workers, government workers, bureaucrats, like it's just some random person on K Street in a suit that's like totally replaceable. I was mentioning this on yesterday's thing. I don't, maybe I should start doing callers. I don't know. I pulled this example just out of my ass, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
I was like, you know, like imagine if you're an NIH employee that has expertise in infectious diseases or whatever, and you just got fired because you're a probationary employee and you've got these Republicans that are like, well, whatever, go to a job fair, find another job. Like literally one of our commenters was like, I'm an NIH employee who's a specialist in gene therapy that got fired.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Right. And it's like putting those actual faces on things. I mean, that is a person that I assume an expert in gene therapy. God love you. We'll be able to find other work because that's like, you know, that kind of specialty. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Like when you hear from the people that are calling in, like these people have real like expertise that is being lost and they help other people and they have impact on their community. And I do think the ripple effect of that is going to be real.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
It should be left-left for America, but center-left for Europe, leader in Denmark, and how the key difference between Denmark and these other countries in Europe is that they have... taking the immigration challenge very seriously and reduced immigration levels. I'm wondering what your kind of thoughts are. Are there any lessons from you and from her just broadly?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
No, no. Competence is not the key for the current administration. Talking about the Dems, I'm wondering what you think their opportunities are, what their missed opportunity is. I mean, I think that it is pretty...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Just it's kind of obvious at this point, like the Democrats have struggled and have lost ground with working class voters, those particularly in the 2016 race was a lot of working class white voters. Everybody focused on, you know, people were taken, you know, going on safaris to diners and Scranton to try to figure out what's going on with working class white voters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
But like in this last election, it was really across the board. Right. I know, except for black women, pretty much. But like working class voters of every other demographic besides black women went more to Trump than they had. Right. Not a majority, but like, you know, started to he gained ground with them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
I'm wondering, like, what you think was the cause of that and like what you think Democrats should do about it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
And you didn't lose by 1.5% to Nikki Haley. You lost by 1.5% to a guy that was like, you know, a felon and a clown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
I have a little bit of a different view, but before I do give my pushback, I want to hear a little more about your view. Like what, how do you think the Democrats could appeal more to the base? I think we're talking mostly about people like black voters didn't vote, young voters didn't vote, or like really probably the two groups that we're talking about mostly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Like what do you think they could talk about that it would, in your view, bring more folks from those demographics out?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
You can have no credit for it either. I know it's crazy. It's like a CNN will do that interview. And then like, cause like that'll show that we're not balanced. And then they get no credit for MAGA voters for it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Okay, so here's my pushback on what you're saying. Obviously, I like moderate voters, so we should try to reach them. But I'm going to put them, let's put them aside for a second. Let's put the moderate voters aside for a second. Don't Democrats need to try to reach, like, there are two groups I'm thinking of.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
One is, I was looking at a map yesterday of rural America and like what percentage of them are on Medicaid. And it's like, I don't know, man, couldn't Democrats make, maybe not get a majority, but get some gains?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
oh yeah among old whites in rural america who need their medicaid couldn't democrats get some gains like back from if you look at like urban neighborhoods those aren't voters the democrats can't get their people voted for democrats their whole life and then this time you know again small percentages but meaningful five ten percent and some and some boroughs in new york like bronx like moved towards trump like you got to be able to try to persuade some of those folks to come back right
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Yeah. Democrats actually lost a little ground on rural black voters in Georgetown. Key demo.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
All right. Let's talk about our inner selves. The inner work dispatch. So, you know, I'm dealing with the current Trump 2.0 by doing an unhealthy amount of working and then binge drinking on the weekends. Is that the kind of inner work that you're talking about or do you have any advice for me? No.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
I'm just trying to be honest about how I'm doing about my self-work. I am going to yoga, too. I am going to yoga.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
This time you're doing Eat, Pray, Love radio? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
We were talking a bit in the green room about my friend Carrie Lake. You defeated her in the election in 2024. Solidly, yeah. Yeah. Bad news for the voice of America. Maybe good news for the Senate. I wanted to ask you about that, your point about solidly, because there were several Democrats that won elections. in states where Trump won.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Which is so weird because Milani is kind of, yeah, but it's like a different strain.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Don't get him in trouble. Eagle Ed Martin's coming for him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
One of my besties did the same thing. It's so weird that Italian is a spot. I get to see her this weekend, so I'm so excited she's coming back to America. But she moved to Arpena, which is like her ancestral land. And what you did was, I was going to be there for six months, met a winemaker, married a winemaker, lives in rural Italy now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
But she said a lot of the same things that you're saying. So there is something to...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Actually, in other ways, like, if you're angry, if you're so consumed by anger, then you're not going to be able to convince anybody. Frankly, you might turn people off, honestly. And harm yourself, you know? Exactly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Good piece of advice. I did notice I looked at my phone last during Squid Game. All right. And Nora. Nora, I watched Nora. It was so great. Nora's so great. I don't know if you ever watched it. Go get it. No, I have to watch that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
right i'll look it up zerlina maxwell thank you so much enjoy sicily i thought i was bragging on everybody that it's mardi gras coming up here but you're in sicily so uh a little gel and uh we'll do an update uh about our inner life and the outer life both uh sometime in a few months thank you for having me all right we'll see you soon so that's only to maxwell thanks again to ruben gallego we'll see everybody back here tomorrow for another edition of the bulwark podcast peace if this world
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
I want to get back to the budget and the Elon stuff, but just one more thing on this immigration. How do you navigate this now? I know. Okay. So that's all looking back and now you're going forward. Trump's going to do some stuff that I don't probably ought to step for me and you on policy on immigration, but like, what, where do you go after like the sanctuary city stuff?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
I, you know, it's probably gonna be pretty popular on the other hand, you know, we're sending Christian refugees from Iran to like camps in Panama. That's, that doesn't, you know, we're raiding Puerto Rican restaurants, right? How do you fight this fight now?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
But if you look at the data, it was mostly because those people voted for Trump and then went home. They're Trump-only voters. Your state was the one example that was different. You had about 100,000 more votes than Kamala Harris. And so I do think that your case is kind of an interesting one to study. So I'm wondering if you've reflected on that, if you have any theories of the case.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Yeah, so that takes us to the budget. So the House Republicans passed last night a non-binding budget outline, essentially, by one vote. The outline would slash Medicaid, balloon the debt, would reduce taxes for billionaires and corporations. Americans would get fucked. I guess it's only going to get tougher for them from here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
But how do you think the Democrats on the Hill should be responding to them as they try to muddle through this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
I hear you on getting out of D.C., but one D.C. process question. Should you guys even... entertain negotiations with these guys on the budget as long as Elon is illegally ransacking the government. I guess I don't even understand what the rationale would be for you guys to negotiate with them right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Was it something about you, something about Kerry, something about Arizona? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
You may need to talk to a couple of your colleagues about that, but we're aligned. The veterans, you're a veteran. I want to talk about the treatment of veterans. Nearly 6,000 have been fired across the federal government during this Doge purge. We have had some 22-year-old Berkeley dropout tech vapors who've gotten jobs. It's not like we've totally fired everybody.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
A couple of people have gotten jobs. 6,000 veterans have lost jobs. We've got Andrew Lennox. One example news that I just saw today. He was a Marine, yeah. Yeah, right. He was working at the Department of Veterans Affairs, 10-year Marine, infantryman, lost his job. Wondering what your take is on all this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got a double dose today. Up in segment two, it's my girl Zerlina Maxwell. But first, she's a U.S. Senator representing Arizona. He was previously a U.S. Congressman. He was deployed to Iraq in 2005 as a Marine infantryman. His name is Senator Ruben Gallego. How you doing, Senator? Hey, good morning. Good to see you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
Well, they're veterans of the meme wars. Yeah, I'm sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
That's efficiency in action there. 75 mile drive, then not having a desk. And my colleague Will Selber wrote this morning, he's an Afghan veteran, and he's kind of writing about these same issues that you're talking about, but saying the Democrats have struggled to learn how to talk to veterans.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
I have struggled to talk to veterans, at least in the kind of like post post fallout from all these wars.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
You do agree with that. I mean, he wrote that the veterans exit polls. So this is going to be off a little bit, but said that that 30 percent went to Trump over Harris. And that's a wide margin. Like, what do you what do you think explains all that? That wasn't always true. I mean, if you go back to the Kerry and even early Obama, you're talking about the Iraq war and Democrats.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ruben Gallego and Zerlina Maxwell: Make Them Own It
I felt like we're much more in tune with veterans issues. Like, what do you think is happening?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
I talked about this with Jessica Charloff yesterday. Do you have any kind of emotional hedge? Do you have any issues, any therapy that you need to do or about...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Aggressive in what sense? What do you mean by that?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Sie haben Geräte, manche haben keine. Manche wurden verhaftet und haben nie Zugang zu einem Gerät. Diejenigen, die eine Repräsentation von ACLU oder Immigrantenbefängern haben, sind jetzt in El Salvador verschwunden. Viele dieser Geräte sind nicht sicher, dass sie in El Salvador sind, aber sie versuchen es einfach. But they're not American citizens.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
So is there any remedy for those individuals in court? Like, are there any individual cases that could still come up? Or is this all more of a constitutional question at this point?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Das ist so fucking just enraging.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
There's an Axios story out this morning by our old colleague Marco Puto, talking about what the administration's strategy is here, to the extent they have a strategy. And essentially, the article states that they want to force these immigration cases up to the Supreme Court.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
The Supreme Court has traditionally been somewhat reluctant to take on immigration cases for variety of reasons, but they want to force their hand. Trump Advisor says to Caputo, we have the law and we have the numbers on the court. We've always known this is where this all ends up.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
So they, on the questions particularly related to the Alien Enemies Act, which is this Venezuela case, and the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952, which is related to the Khalil case and the deportation of the student protesters, they essentially want the Supreme Court to be the final arbiter on all this. And I'm curious,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
was du davon machst und ob es eine Roberts-Kriminalität gibt, wenn diese Fälle seinen Weg führen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Or if they even had a visa and they left. Me and Crystal gave a pretty sympathetic read of the Brown professor situation on Monday's pod before all the information came out. And as we have more information, like that one is like, I don't know, I think that woman is... In a lot tougher of a situation.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
She had gone to Lebanon to go to the funeral of Nasrallah or something and tries to come back into the country. And that becomes very, very dicey for having your visa getting pulled for that or your visa getting pulled if you're working in the country and you're not supposed to be. So pulling people's visas for that sort of stuff, they've got a lot of power.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
David French would like to point out that the Supreme Court, the first Trump 1.0, went against what the government was arguing more times than any court since FDR. And we've already seen in Trump 2.0 now, Barrett and Roberts side against them on some of these Doge cases.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Are you sure about that? Because the co-president Elon Musk quote tweeted yesterday, Valentina Gomez, long time listeners of the pod will know this niche character. She was running for office in Missouri as a Republican in a primary as a MAGA Republican and did a big ad. Great American, when she wrote that the only path forward is impeaching all the corrupt judges.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Government shouldn't follow these district judges' orders. Elon says this is the only way.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Es gab gestern einen Trump-Putin-Anruf. Putin hat Trump für eine Stunde oder mehr warten lassen, während er auf der Bühne war. Jemand hat Putin geäußert, dass er nicht mit Trump aufhören sollte. Er hat es vermisst und sagt, dass er warten kann. Putin hat Trump für eine Stunde warten lassen. Sie haben einen langen Anruf. The US statement on the call I want to read from.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
The leaders agreed that the movement to peace will begin with an energy and infrastructure ceasefire as well as technical negotiations on the implementation of a maritime ceasefire in the Black Sea with full ceasefire and permanent peace hopefully coming after. These negotiations will begin immediately in the Middle East.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
The two leaders agreed that a future with an improved bilateral relationship between the United States and Russia has huge upside. This includes enormous economic deals and geopolitical stability when peace has been achieved. That was the US statement.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Putin put out a much longer statement that listed all the things that he's demanding from the US that Trump had not agreed to, including his top priority being end to all foreign military aid and assistance into Ukraine. Later, Trump in an interview said that they had not discussed that. Later the Kremlin put out a statement that said, oh yeah, actually we did discuss that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
While that back and forth was going on, Russia was bombing energy infrastructure in Ukraine, which is an interesting interpretation of an energy and infrastructure ceasefire. So we sit here today, Wednesday morning, with that as the state of play. What do you make of it?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
There are so many words contained within for whatever reason. There are essays and books and histories that could be written within for whatever reason.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Ist es Krasnov? Ist es Leidenschaft? Ist es Geld? Ist es russisches Kryptowährungsgeld? All of the above.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Yeah, I was going to say, this sounds to me like the hardline Catholic priests, like the ones I always didn't like growing up. You know, I was more about the Jesuits, you know, the love and the supporting your neighbor and the public service and, you know, doing things for the greater glory of God, AMDG and all that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Or this impression, I think it was me and Bill or Michael Eisler were talking about this, it was so revealing after the sham of that Oval Office meeting with Zelensky, when he said that Putin's been going through this. There was this Russia investigation and Putin's been going through this. He does seem to believe...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
dass er und Putin in diesem Zusammenhang auf einem gewissen Niveau gegen diese anderen Kräfte des Globalismus sind, die versuchen, beide von ihnen herunterzubringen. Und so existiert diese Situation nur in seinem eigenen Kopf. Aber es war ein informativer Bescheid, ein Hinweis darauf, wie er darüber denkt.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Ich habe eine 3000-Wörter-Erklärung für diese Konspiration geschrieben. Ich bin sehr tief auf dem Server.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
I talked to Mac over the counteroffensive a little bit yesterday. People can check that out on YouTube or on the Bulwark Takes feed. But you have a lot of contacts also on the Ukrainian circles. I don't know how to say it. Resistance and the Ukrainian resistance. What does everybody make of all this at this point? I mean, there seem to be maybe...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Obviously you can paint with a broad brush, Ukraine is a big country, people have different views, but there was some kind of false hope, I think, after the election, that maybe this would be similar to Trump 1.0, where, like when push came to shove, to your point, like eventually Putin would embarrass him enough that Trump would feel just like, you know, almost as a man, to have to protect his manhood, that he would have to, you know, give Ukraine what is necessary to defend itself.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
But, you know, it is kind of reminiscent of some of the other sermons I went through.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Die Hoffnung dafür ist, glaube ich, sehr hoch. Und ich frage mich, was Sie von der ukrainischen Seite von diesem Punkt aus sehen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Yeah, that we need pain.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Yeah, we're sinners. We need to be brought to confession on our knees. Something to be said for that. Okay, well, I'll float that past my mother's priest to see what he thinks about whether we're doing anything wrong here. What's up, Father Pat? In the meantime, I want to read, I'm going to summarize as best I can.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Kanada. I was going to say, the parallels are pretty striking, obviously. More intense in Ukraine.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Das ist sehr ähnlich. from this repository has been permanently deleted. If true, there'd be devastating consequences. The repository was basically this trove of research that we had been providing, including satellite imagery and other data about some of the 30,000 children that had been abducted from Ukraine. Apparently the State Department has just erased it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
in einem Artikel, den du für Lawfare geschrieben hast, über das, was du als vollständige Situationen nennst, die wir gerade befinden. Punkt eins in der vollständigen Situation ist, dass wir eine Wiederorientierung der US-Foreignen-Polizei haben, in Richtung unserer Feinde und entfernt von unseren Freunden.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
I literally couldn't believe it's true. I texted Landsman. I was like, this cannot possibly be true.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Punkt zwei ist eine Krieg auf der Bürokratie und ein vollständiges Zerstören von föderalen Agenzien. Punkt drei ist eine Wiederentwicklung der Machtministerien der Gerechtigkeit und der FBI, um sie mit Hacks installiert zu haben, politischen Hacks.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Okay, let's close with Voice of America. My old friend Kerry Lake is gutting it. You wrote about this at length for Lawfare, unilateral disarmament and the disinformation wars. I don't think I've talked about this VOA at all really on the pod. So why don't you give people a brief on what's happening there?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Hallo und willkommen zu The Bullard Podcast. Ich bin euer Host Tim Miller. Es ist Donnerstag. Also, wenn ihr für einen politischen Chatter sucht oder ihr möchtet, dass ihr ein paar Ansätze auf den Minnesota-Staatssenator hört, der versucht hat, Trump-Verlust-Syndrom zu machen,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Vierter Punkt der Situation ist, dass jetzt unsere legalen Polizisten im Geist eines romischen Generalen, kein besserer Freund, kein schlimmerer Feind als unsere Justizdepartement. Du schreibst, es gibt andere Aspekte der vollständigen Situation, die vielleicht von diesen vier und Seriösität ausgedrückt sind, wie z.B.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Gott, das ist wirklich traurig, die Wahrheit nicht auf unserer Seite zu sein. Lass mich dir das Maga-Strahlmann auf das geben, das wäre, weißt du, die Winnie-the-Pooh-in-the-Tuxedo-Argument, anstatt des, wir sind nur auf der Seite der Baddies jetzt. Und das ist, weißt du, das ist alles vor dem Internet. Leute können jetzt Informationen in einer Vielfalt von Wegen bekommen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Immigration actions, indiscriminate war on DEI programs, the bizarre economic policies that are rattling markets, the attempt to oust transgender people from the military, the overt corruption, such as the president turning the White House lawn into a car dealership showroom. And with that, you get the point.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Es ist nicht wie in den alten Tagen, wo wir Radio brauchen und Leute sind überwältigt mit Informationen, und vielleicht ist es nicht mehr ein guter Gebrauch von Ressourcen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Vielleicht wollen wir das nicht, eigentlich, für die nächsten vier Jahre zumindest. Nicht-Qualitäts-Informationen über das, was wir tun.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Final thing on this, I was listening to the Pod Save the World guys talk about this and I have to close with this fuck around and find out from Marco Rubio. One of the other elements of VOA is this radio and TV Marty. This is in South Florida in Miami. It is. Das ist eine Spanischsprache-News, die Cuba betrifft. Cuba versucht, das zu blockieren.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Und viele der Zuhörer davon sind eigentlich wie Südflorida-Cuban-Exil-Hardliners. Und das schütterte es. Radio-TV-Marti schütterte es. Das waren große Voter, die sich gegen Trump bewegen. Marco Rubio, der Staatssekretär, war ein großer Advokat für Radio-Marti-Fundierung, natürlich, als er im Senat war und Florida repräsentierte.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
There's an article I'm looking at right now of Mario Diaz-Balart, that fucking cuck, who is like saying, oh, I'm not worried. We're going to try to reverse it. And who knows? Maybe he calls up Marco and we decide that that's the only outlet of VOA that we continue to fund. Or they find some rich billionaire to do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
But it's pretty intriguing that a bunch of jobs lost, not somewhere else, but in Miami for these outlets that have been serving Cuban exiles and dissidents for 60, 70 years now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
The full scale situation involves a significant measure of everything, everywhere, all at once. Would you like to expound on that? Did I summarize it well?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Well, hope the Cubans are happy. Big move towards Trump down there in South Florida. I should say that Radio Marty's been around for 40 years. Ben Wittes, thank you for your insight, your anger, and everything else you guys are doing over there at Lawfare. People should go to Lawfare, check it out, read it, subscribe if you can handle it, and we'll be talking to you again soon. Take care.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
Everybody else will be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Borg Podcast. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
An official mental illness in the state of Minnesota and then a few hours later was caught in a sting trying to have sex with a 16-year-old girl. Hmm, that was truly such a shame. Too bad. Tough break for that guy. If you want to hear more about that, over on the next level. It's Wednesday. So go check out the next level. Download that podcast feed, wherever you get your podcasts.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
So I can't ask you to assess it now? That's what you're telling me? I can't say, well Ben, what is the thing that you think has the biggest, longest term ramifications?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
For people that's ears glaze over whenever I mention impoundment, can you just explain what you're referring to?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
It'll be up late Wednesday. But we're going to focus on serious matters here, legal matters, and I'm delighted to have with me Good to see you. What's happening, man? Welcome back. So good to be here. Yeah, how's the lawfare traffic these days? Website traffic? Does the chart go up? Does it kind of look like the Ethereum stock chart a little bit maybe?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
The best part, all Quince items are priced at 50-80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the middleman, and passes the savings on to us. I never know until I sit in the chair who our sponsor is for the day. So this is the first time it's happened. I'm wearing my Quinch shirt right now for YouTube viewers. You can see it here. I'm enjoying it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
I like the piping. The listeners, you can't tell, but you can come look at a picture of me on the Bulwark or on YouTube or you can just imagine it in your head. This little navy blue short sleeve number. Looks nice. It's good for a podcast. It might be It might be good for a little ride on the Mississippi.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
If I wanted to get out on a boat and have a glass of rosé, this would be a nice shirt to wear. A lot of options. Very versatile. A lot of stuff at Quince. Highly recommend it. So indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quince.com slash thebullwork for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash thebullwork to get free shipping and 365-day returns.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
quince.com slash thebullwork Let's transition nicely to the encouraging but preliminary comments from the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court about the rolling constitutional crisis that we are experiencing. This was with regards to the
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
I guess he didn't say that it was with regards to Trump's statements, but there were statements by several people, including the president, about the Judge Boesberg that had put the stay on the aforementioned Venezuelan deportation case that I have steam coming out of my ears over. And several people were saying that this judge should be impeached, and Tom Holman, the immigration czar, Ja, genau.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
You know, not exactly a rip-roaring denunciation that would do well on a TikTok, but pretty clear disagreement with the president's statements on this. So I'm wondering what you made of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
I want to get back to Roberts, just because I want to pick your brain on SCOTUS. But just since you've been following that case closely, let's get into the Boesberg case a little bit. What do you make of, I guess, the disagreement at this point? The administration is saying essentially that this plane was already in the air over international waters. You can't turn it around.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1003: Ben Wittes: Putin Makes A Fool of Trump, Again
They don't have jurisdiction. Boesberg is saying essentially... They haven't proven it, I guess, that the plane actually was over international waters. I guess, is that the crux of the disagreement at this point?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Anyway, I'm not asking you to be a media critic. You're on this. That was more of a rhetorical question. Okay, we got to keep moving because there's more. Howard Lutnick, our new Commerce Department Secretary. He is also a big investor in Bitcoin. Sons now run the business. And he is related. Explain how he's related to Tether, the stable coin that you are referencing. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
That's our commerce secretary. Okay. Elon is also deeply invested in this stuff, was a big pusher of Dogecoin. Eric Adams, who just got pardoned, is mobbed up in crypto world. And so I want to talk about the policy side of this, but is there any other Trump 2.0 connections worth mentioning? Andreessen, big advisors, big pusher of this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
You think it would be regulated. Like, I'm for gambling, for example. I'm pro gambling. Vegas is a very highly regulated industry. Gambling is a very highly regulated industry. It's like, you want to gamble on meme coins? Okay. But like, shouldn't there be regulation?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
But like the guy who is ostensibly would be in charge of that is now the crypto czar is an investor in the exchange where they trade the meme coins. So probably not a lot of incentive.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Yeah, like baseball cards instead. So the other things is we have named to the oversight of this is this Brian Quintens, who worked for Marc Andreessen's VC firm. The firm was the leading backer, one of the leading backers of a crypto, pro-crypto political action committee. So this guy is going to be now at the CFTC. We got, you know, Fox Henhouse situation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
And in fact, it's even dumber. Yeah. Okay, so I want to do just a little bit of Crypto 101 for our listeners that don't follow this stuff. But if this brief Crypto 101 lesson isn't enough, you did Chris Hayes' Why Is This Happening pod a couple weeks ago, and it was like 45 minutes of Crypto 101. It was really good. So I direct people to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
They've also been pushing for this Bitcoin Reserve, where I guess they would put... the government, our government would start investing into this. So, you know, talk about any of the policy implications there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Yeah, sure. But I mean, the fact that they're even talking about it is ludicrous. We had the president of Argentina, Javier Millay. He got in on this scam. And there was a cryptocurrency, Libra, that launched. And there was just this massive run-up of the coin. And this whole pump and dump rug pull thing just happened on super speed. It just happened in a couple hours.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
You can tell me how much money actually went into it. But a huge run-up and then crash. Yeah. You know, Malay is like taking no responsibility for this. Tell people what happened in this situation. And then my last question is like to be generous to the...
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
authentic bitcoin advocates why aren't they matter i guess would be my point like if you actually did think bitcoin was valuable you would think that like prominent people like trump and malay just running these obvious like rug pull scams would have those folks upset but i guess not because potentially they're gonna put money and a number will go up but i don't know you tell me
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
if they don't get enough but um at its basic level right like there's cryptocurrency then there's bitcoin which is you know the most famous or whatever the most renowned but then there are all these other coins so you just kind of explain to people how all these kind of terms interact with each other
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
I'm sorry. I thought it was a currency. Is it a currency or is it a casino or is it a digital asset? I am a little bit confused. It kind of seems like it changes depending on what is convenient for the talking point at the moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Wild. Zeke, I think that we're going to have a lot of reason to talk. I really appreciate you coming on. I just I don't know that it's sunk in with folks just how mobbed up the Trump inner circle is in crypto world. And people obviously have learned about the coin at this point, but Whitcoff and Lutnick and all that. So I'm sure more will come of this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
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The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
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The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
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The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
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The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
After your purchase, they'll ask you how you found them. Please show your support and let them know we sent you. Keep your energy natural and refreshing all year long with Mudwater because life's too short for anything less than clean, delicious energy. And we're back with Jared Moskowitz, Democratic Congressman from Parkland, Florida. He was elected in 2022.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
He's formerly Florida's Director of Emergency Management. It's Jared Moskowitz. How you doing, Congressman?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Yeah, we're just hanging. We're just a couple guys hanging, you know? That's what the people demanded, right? In the election, just bros hanging out in their t-shirts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Okay, great. I'm for it. I like what you've been doing all together, not just your outfit, but you're on Fox, engaging with Jesse Waters. That's good. You've been, you know, calling these Republicans on their BS on the budget stuff. So I want to get into the tactical, but we do have a couple of news items we got to do first.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Yesterday, there's a press conference where Trump explained who he thought was to blame for the Ukraine war. I want to listen to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
You shouldn't have started it. They chose not to do it that way. You might think you'd be talking about Putin there, but he was talking about Zelensky. I wonder what you thought about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
We are making the Panamanians take... Migrants who are not criminals who came to the country like for religious freedom and there's New York Times article yesterday where an Iranian Christian came to America hoping for religious freedom and we deported them to Panama as part of our effort to bully them over the canal. So that's a real thing that's happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Let's just talk about the deal real quick because I want to get back to tactics because this was where I was going next. I want to listen to Rubio just really quick, and I want to talk about the substance of what they're proposing here. Let's listen to Marco.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
I don't even really get this deal from the deal-making standpoint. Even if you took aside morals or the US values or allies and just said, let's cut a good deal with Russia that's good for us. What is the deal exactly? What is Russia giving up in this deal? We don't need economic partnership with them. They need sanctions relief from us. It's not like we're getting a lot of
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Russian products here that they're a huge market for us. I guess if you're a diamond jeweler in New York or a really high-end real estate person, you might need some Russian. Other than that, what are we getting out of this deal? It seems to me like we're giving Ukraine away from nothing, just looking at it from just a deal standpoint.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
What did he say yesterday that would have been different from what, I don't know, Corey Lewandowski would have said as Secretary of State? What did he say different?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
I thought America first was about getting us stuff. We're not getting shit out of this deal. Like Ukraine is giving up everything. We're creating conflict with our allies. We're adding tariffs to our allies. That's going to cost us more money. What do these deals get for us? I haven't seen anything that is an America first deal yet to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
I'm just trying to judge him on the metrics that he set for himself. I don't like that. I'm a neocon. I'm not an America first realist. But what I'm saying is he's failing on his own metrics. Unless America first is just Trump first. I do get that. Maybe that's all this is about, Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Russia should probably give up something too. Russia shouldn't just get stuff. That's, I guess, my main problem.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Let's move on to what I really want to talk to you about, which is the budget stuff, because they're in a real pickle on this. And I liked what you tweeted, I forget, or said on an interview. They're like, basically, I'm for a balanced budget amendment. Let's do it. Let's balance the budget this year. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
And call them on their BS, because getting to a budget is very challenging, just as one microcosm. Last night, Trump said on Sean Hannity that he doesn't want to touch Medicaid. Today, he said, I support the House budget, which cuts Medicaid by like $800 billion or something.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
So you've got Chip Roy, I got here, said every Republican needs to actually step up to honor what they've campaigned on when they say they want to balance the budget and reduce spending. So there's Chip Roy, your colleague. Meanwhile, Trump wants extension of the tax cuts, no tax on tips. Like the math just doesn't math for them. And so the question is, how do the Democrats deal with that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
2010, and you can just go back to any.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
We do have to just dispute that one fact.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Do you think any of your colleagues will be interested in a clean CR with California fires? It would seem like a ridiculous thing to vote for, for all the reasons that you laid out, in addition to the fact that the Democrats don't actually get anything about that. There are Republicans in California. You didn't get anything about that deal. That would sound to me like the Trump-Ukraine deal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
And they floated today, by the way. Since they put out that budget, Elon floated today sending people a $5,000 doge check, which would be about another trillion. So, you know, so $3 or $4 trillion, depending on whether you're listening to Elon or Mike Johnson. So...
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
I agree. So do you have any Republicans yet co-signing with you on your resolution?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
That's exciting. I think that it's important that they get on the record on this, though. And this is where we are completely aligned. And I think that... Maybe they are coming to realize how big of a pickle they're in. The only way out of this, frankly, for them at the end of the day is Trump bullying them all to push through something that is absolutely fiscally irresponsible in the extreme.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
And maybe that'll happen. And maybe Chip Roy and all those guys will have to swallow their pride. I don't know. We'll see. They should be forced to make a judgment call on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Elon hasn't come in front of the committees yet. Like they've come to meet with you guys. Like where can you get a deal? No, none of that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
I'm excited to see how that turns out. All right, last thing for you, just because I know something you've been speaking out on, I try to not ignore when things like this happen. There was a protest that got kind of violent yesterday in Brooklyn, Borough Park, protesting residents of an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
We continue to see this around the country, and I just want to make sure it's not being ignored. So, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Yeah, it's Parkland week here at The Bulwark. I started another pod, FYI pod. People should go subscribe with your boy Cameron Kasky, who went to Parkland. Yeah, went to Douglas. We talked about this issue yesterday and anti-Semitism among youth. And it is, in this case, it really is a both side situation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Like if you just look at the numbers, it actually was like there was a recent poll where people were asked directly, like, do you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion of Jews? It was an extremely straightforward question. And among the youngest cohort, the highest group was Trump supporters, but not far below that was Democrats. And the numbers were like 20% higher.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
I don't have it in front of me, but significantly higher than among our age and up. And it's a real thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Thanks so much, Congressman. And since you were doing it right on Fox, I'm going to leave people with what they used to call it on The Daily Show, a moment of zen. A moment of zen of you... giving it back to Jesse Waters. Thanks for coming on the show. Let's all take a listen to that. And we'll see you back here tomorrow for another edition of the Borg podcast. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Which is basically no different than Wolf of Wall Street. It's just a modern Jordan Belfort situation where they're just trying to run up these penny stocks and then sell them. I guess those things had some value maybe, but not really.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Hello and welcome to the Borg Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Super pumped to have a reporter today who is focused on something that I'm obsessed with. He's the investigative reporter for Bloomberg Businessweek and Bloomberg News and author of Number Go Up, Inside Crypto's Wild Rise and Staggering Fall, out now in paperback. It's Zeke Fox to talk all things crypto. How are you doing, Zeke?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Okay. All right. One more 101 question. And then I want to get into why I wanted to have you on and I think why it's so relevant to what's happening at the Trump 2.0. So you mentioned the kind of wide array of coins or currencies, so to speak, and how they're doing it. There is also...
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
in addition to Bitcoin, which I guess people aren't really trying to make a currency anymore, but El Salvador invested in Bitcoin. There's still some people, I guess, that are trying to use Bitcoin to actually trade goods. There's also some coins that are called stable coins, where they are trying to make them mimic currencies, I guess, in some fashion. Is that fair?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
So why would you buy a tether, not a dollar for crime, I guess, because it's not traceable.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Got it. Okay, we're gonna get back to tether. I wanted to ask about that for a reason. So I want to just kind of get into Trump 2.0. And sometimes, you know, I was talking to my husband last night, and he's like, you're seeming a little bit like the always sunny guy with the yarn and the wall. But I mean, the amount of connections in Trump 2.0 is into crypto world is like pretty staggering.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
So obviously, you start with the most obvious, which is that Trump launched one of these meme coins of his own a few days before he was inaugurated. A massive influx of cash comes in. Talk about, you know, what has happened so far with Trump coin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Great. Thanks for having me on, Tim. Dude, thanks for doing this. I'm obsessed with this. I'm of the view that the crypto scams will probably be a top three to five story of the Trump years when all is said and done. And I think that a lot of the media outlets don't give this quite as much attention because the demographics of the news consumers don't overlap with the crypto world much.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Yeah, okay. So I want to go through the people involved in this Trump coin because here's where we get to the yarn. So you've got Steve Witkoff, who is his envoy, I guess, to negotiations now around the world, this business guy. He was the lead in the hostage trade with Russia recently. Witkoff's kids, his kid rather, is a business partner with Trump's kids on this Trump coin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
So he also made some cash out of the coin. Is that right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Okay. So his crypto business partner is the lead on this negotiation. Maybe just a coincidence, but in the hostage trade, we get Mark Fogel, an American teacher. We're glad that he's home. The Russians get Alexander Vinik. He was arrested in 2017 on charges related to the laundering of billions of dollars using virtual currency Bitcoin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
So we have a Russian Bitcoin money launderer that is the first person out on their side. Maybe a coincidence, but pretty noteworthy that that was the person that was there on the trade with Witkoff, the crypto business partner.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
In addition, this also ties to kind of our previous conversations about how the U.S. is now on the side of the baddies in these world events. Justin Sun, who is the subject of an SEC enforcement action, big investor in the first Trump crypto gambit before the more recent coin. Talk to us about Justin Sun.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
A lot of them don't really even understand it. And then a lot of the people in the journalist world... have such contempt or just like culturally or separate from the types of folks that are really into crypto. And so it leads to like not getting ignored.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
So they get 20% of $56 million? They got 75% of $75 million. Got it. I mean, probably the biggest payment to a president...
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
When the Trump coin thing happened, the thing that people who are daily listeners will know that I keep saying that they made Spiro Agnew resign over like 10 grand. And it was bad. It was like 10 or 20 grand. He was taking paperback money as VP, but it was like pennies compared to the type of money that people are putting into the various Trump coins.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
And this guy in particular, and I guess we will watch and what happens with the investigation. We have somebody who's a foreign national giving tens of millions of dollars essentially into Trump's pocket.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
And obviously you're not ignoring it, but I'm wondering if you kind of agree with my assessment of, obviously I would assume you agree that this is undercover. It's your beat. I'm wondering what you think about that, about my assessment for why. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jared Moskowitz and Zeke Faux: Scams Galore
Yeah. Again, how is like Justin's son not extremely famous? I guess is my question. This is kind of what I was talking about at the start. Because, I mean, if this was, you know, anything like, you know, in the past, you know, like the Mark Rich part in or, you know, like these sorts of things. I mean, like the amount of money that was given is nothing compared to what Justin's son has put in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
takes us a little bit to the domestic side of this, because there is an underlying argument beneath the appointment of Pete Exeth, for example, Secretary of Defense, which you see in memes from Republicans like Ted Cruz and others, which is that the Russians and the Chinese and militaries abroad, they are tough. They care about being real men, and that's men's values there. And here...
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
We have weakened our military. We care too much about DEI or whatever, our struggle sessions. You hear this a lot. And that truism is what underlines the rationale for making these appointments. And so I'm just curious what you think about that and what you think the incoming administration, how their changes might affect our readiness and our military.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I'm excited to have you back. Hopefully you can illuminate some things for me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Obviously, most of this stuff is coming from, you know, keyboard tough guys like Ted Cruz. But there is some demand for this inside the military from some quarters. So I want to read you something that happened on, I guess, Tuesday morning. The Trump transition put out a press release saying that 120 retired generals and admirals signed a letter supporting Pete Hegseth.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
In the press release, it has a couple sentences here. He has studied and experienced the disastrous effects of diversity, equity, and inclusion on our military, and he's committed to expunging it from our armed forces. Prominent in Trump's mandate was making our military strong and lethal to include removing what is called wokeness from our armed forces.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Much to discuss. And you've written, I want to get at the end, you've written for us as well, which I always really appreciate. You wrote something beautifully about American values, what you've learned in the Army, and what maybe the citizenry needs to learn. You wrote that for us after the election. So I want to get to that at the end. But there's so much happening around the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
So, you know, it's over 120 guys who look at a weekend talk show host and say he's the right man for the job because he has expertise on DEI. What do you think about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Whether, I don't know, the credibility question. I mean, how do you assess somebody like an appointment like Hegseth when there are just so many qualified people out there?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And usually I have a little outline of things I want to talk about. But given your breadth of experience, I actually thought the more interesting way to start would be, I want a threat assessment from you. You're looking at the domestic challenges we face with the incoming Trump administration. So I have his appointees looking at what's happening with Syria and Iran and the Koreas and Ukraine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Yeah. I just listened to that. And you said something that is just something that I've been wondering about. Somebody just doesn't, doesn't have any experience in this world. It's like, if you're a brigadier general, you know, like you said, said you are, and you're going in next February and you've got to do a briefing on war planning to the secretary of defense and,
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
It's a guy that's been sitting on the couch for eight years on a weekend talk show. I mean, that has, I don't know what that does to morale, but I just, I'm just painting that picture in my head. It feels ridiculous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I mean, even putting the politics of it aside, just as a question of seriousness and the type of person you would want in a job like this, it seems pretty preposterous when you think about the quality of people that are going to be reporting up to this person.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
If you're getting a phone call, it's like, General, what do you think the biggest threat is that we face? And what are you most concerned about? What's at the top of your list right now?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I was talking to Michael Weiss about this the other week, and he's talking about the intelligence side of this. And on the list of those five cabinets, you mentioned DNI. You know, again, say what you want about Tulsi. She also served like Hegseth, but repeatedly she has demonstrated either sympathies or... willingness to advance pro-Russian messaging.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And I do wonder how you think about that as far as the threats that are facing us domestically and kind of the questions about whether how our allies are going to look at that as far as intelligence sharing and, you know, whether it might raise any questions about the strength of the alliance, etc. ?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Yeah, I think of the times in the past, I guess, referencing like the Lavrov, the example with Trump's sharing information that was with the Russians. Oh, was it about Israel? Gosh, I can't remember. It's been a while.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
You're not exactly bringing up an uplifting analysis of what's happening here, General Hartling.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Okay. Give me something. What do you got? What's something good? What's something good that's happening out there?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
How about this for something positive? You started by talking about kind of these conversations you were having with, was it folks at West Point, did you say? Young people coming into the military now. What did you see from them? I mean, like, are they as wrapped up in all this culture war nonsense and political nonsense as the people at the top are? And what was their kind of mindset?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I'm not exactly as sharp as I need to be with my quips and bon mots. And so the gummies, you don't have that. You don't get to deal with that. You can de-stress. You know, I can turn on Silo. I've been watching Silo on Apple TV Plus lately and have a little gummy, chill out. No repercussions, no ramifications, right? Nothing. It's all good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
It was titled, I Helped the Army Remember Its Values. I Wish I Could Do the Same for the Country. There was a mnemonic device, leadership, without the E and the A in there. So it was loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage. Just talk about kind of what underlined that and what lessons we might want to take from it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Do you worry that... I don't know. There's an increased sense in the country that that stuff was all BS and that that is what kind of underlined the Trump rise. I mean, you know, just the fact that America really should act like we're just any other country. We should go out and get ours.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Isn't that kind of what underlines the nationalist impulse that over the National Review, Rich Lowry is obsessed with this, like America isn't an idea, actually. And we have interests like any other country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Do you worry that Trump's second victory is kind of a victory for that worldview and that maybe this kind of sense that there's something deeper about service to America is starting to disappear?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I hope you're right. I just, I look at that list and it's like loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, personal courage. It's tough to see our president-elect on that list anywhere. You know, it was reminiscent to me of during the McCain funeral. A lot of people were giving odes to him, talking about any of these traits that he had.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And a lot of Trump's defenders at the time were like, oh, they're insulting him. They're attacking the president. It's like, well, no, odes to these values that he doesn't have are not necessarily negative attacks on him. They're just odes to what we actually value here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I think we're going to go through a period now over the next four years where it's going to be tough to navigate that a little bit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
It's a great piece. I hope people go and read it. I've got one more thing for you and then I want to do a little St. Louis talk. I meant to ask you at the top, given your expertise, your amount of time in Europe, dealing with our counterparties and our allies in Europe,
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
If what you're saying is correct about the weakness of Russia right now and about the need to make sure we're backing our Ukrainian partners, we've seen the NATO Secretary General calling for more assistance and for European partners to step up more and recognize the threat that they face. Is there anything to that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Could the Western alliance survive with a diminished role of the United States, you think, or... Does the United States diminishing necessarily mean a weakening of the entire alliance and Putin continuing to kind of regather his strength?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Since your assessment of just the way that Russia has been degraded, I think is maybe greater than some of the conventional wisdom is out there. Do you concur with what Ruta said recently about how Europe doesn't know what they're in for? And, you know, over a three, four, five year window, Russia has ambitions potentially beyond Ukraine. Do you share that concern?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Or do you think that they are too degraded to be able to execute on even if they had greater ambitions that couldn't actually follow through on them? What's your assessment?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Louis man. You went to Chaminade, which is a Catholic school. No, I went to CBC. You went to CBC, Christian Brothers. Okay. So of my, so I've got, so my father and let's see, one, two, I'm doing a quick math in my head. One, two, three, four, five of my, four of my uncles went to SLU. I had one fellow CBC. My mother's youngest brother was CBC. Everybody else was SLU.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Yeah. Absolutely. I know that the youngest brother that my, when my mother went and her brother went to CBC, it was a little bit of a touchy subject actually around, around the house since everybody else had gone to SLU. I, we moved, my parents moved me or moved us. I'm actually Denver. I rep Denver, but I have two huge Catholic families.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And so I have a hundred cousins who go to every, who went everywhere. Though I don't think we had any CBCs. That's why I had Chaminade mixed up in my head. I did have a cousin went to Chaminade, an uncle went to CBC, but a lot mostly slew across the board. Though a friend of mine is now the president of DeSmet, Ronnie O'Dwyer. So we have a little St. Louis Catholic school rivalry happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
But you've also, like me, we've migrated out of St. Louis. You're a Florida man now? A Florida man now, yeah. Are you at all concerned about the regime targeting you? There is a little bit of anxiety, but not much. I can handle it. All right. I have no doubt you can handle it. Thank you, General Mark Hertling. I really appreciate it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
We are richer for your analysis here, and you've been a frequent visitor of the podcast and the site. We're really grateful to you, and I hope we can stay in touch.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
All right. Everybody else, we'll be back tomorrow. We've got a first-time guest on the podcast. Super pumped for it. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
All right. So a lot there. There's some obvious threats I think we're going to get to, particularly Russia and Russia and North Korea, which you also wrote about for us recently, if you want to dig deeper on that. The most interesting thing you said there is you began with concerns about the Middle East.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And there's one way to look at this, which is what's happened over the last half year or year, really, in the Middle East and say, well, Iran's influence is weakened. Hezbollah and Hamas are weakened, nearly eliminated, and Assad's been overthrown. Is it not possibly the case that the threats there are diminishing rather than increasing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Can I ask you, And I asked Ian Applebaum about this on Friday, and I've really been pondering. the Bibi question and the Israel question because I'm a softy. And so, some of the Bibi stuff, you know, said the Israel's prosecution of the war has at times made me very uncomfortable ranging towards upset.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
On the other hand, though, you know, they were responding to this just heinous, horrific attack. And what we have seen from the fact that Israel's military and Bibi have been unwilling to kind of respond to pressure from the globe because they've resisted that pressure just objectively, like they've successfully weakened these very serious threats around the, around the region.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
So I wonder, you know, just from a military perspective, kind of how you assess the way that Israel has prosecuted the war over the last year.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I want to go back up to Ukraine. You know, when you were on with Charlie, gosh, a couple of years ago now, time is a flat circle. And I think we're pretty prescient in speaking about the weaknesses of the Russian military. I think you were more, because of your firsthand experience, I think more aware of the limitations, to say the least, that their military operation would have.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
You said the same thing about this. You wrote the same thing for us about this partnership with North Korea that has, you You know, allowed them to have kind of additional men coming in to the battlefield.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I'm wondering how you assess the state of play now with the specter of Donald Trump coming in and whether you feel like that's changed at all, whether you think that Russia is maybe on a stronger footing or I guess just broadly what you think the state of play is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Wednesday. I'm actually taping this Tuesday afternoon because Wednesday morning I'm flying to D.C. Me and Sarah Longwell are doing a debate against the Libertarian Reason Bros over at the Howard Theater. So if you're in D.C. and want to come hang out. and are listening to this on Wednesday afternoon.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
It does seem insane that we would take, we being the West, would take our foot off the gas here at this moment if what you're saying is right. If they're in such a weak position for this to be the moment to say, let's negotiate, it's just a gift to Putin. It's like it would be to bail him out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Yeah. Why do you say that the first is he always wins just because he's not negotiate? He doesn't negotiate in good faith and the other side does.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
For people that are maybe new to us or just refresh memories for those from the last time you were around, and part of the reason why you were able to assess their weakness was seeing firsthand the type of military operation they were running. Why don't you just refresh folks' memory about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
We're doing that tonight around 7 p.m. So in the meantime, I have a wonderful guest. I'm excited to welcome back to The Bulwark to talk big picture view of what's happening here and around the world. He is a retired lieutenant general and a CNN military analyst. He's a former commanding general of the U.S. Army in Europe in the Seventh Army. He's a veteran of both Iraq wars. It's Mark Hartling.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I'm sorry, General, I got to interrupt you there because I've been told on Fox News and such that that's like how you do military right. That's the manly military, you know, beating up soldiers. It's just our woke pansy military that doesn't do stuff like that. Is that not incorrect?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
that preloading i've been talking about that that's key all right what you don't want is a photo frame you send somebody a box it's a box all right it's got a beautiful mat it looks good it's cool they put it up on their mantle they put it on their bedside table but it's it's nothing you know it's a it's a photo of some people they don't know or it's a single photo of you you know and uh and your family and then it's boring and then they move on to the next present
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. And in some ways he is predictable. Like if you just suck up to him, then he'll do what you want. So in some ways he's unpredictable in certain ways and otherwise the most predictable person possible in a foreign exchange. Planning any exciting foreign trips this year? I know I'm going to try to take a little vacation this summer if you guys are going to let me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
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The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Something else missing. Okay. My husband usually looks at those kind of guys. I'm not into the muscle men, but I do know who you're talking about. All right. We're going to do a lot of Hegseth. We're going to go deep on Hegseth. We kind of already did a palate cleanser with the amino acids, but I just think given how horrific the world is right now, we need two palate cleansers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
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The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I think I've got to get out of here, though. I got to get out of here. And I think I could go someplace where people aren't speaking English. There's just something a little bit more freeing when they're not speaking English around you. You know, it feels a little bit more like a vacation. Looking at Babbel, trying to figure out a way to be able to order at the restaurants at minimum.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
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The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
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The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I want to just get in on that Slotkin question that you mentioned, which was an example of the Democrats trying to pin him down in a way that was effective. Unfortunately, it was the last round of questioning of the hearing. But there was an important issue that was undergirding this Q&A. So I want to listen to all of it. It's a little bit longer clip than we usually play.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
But let's listen to Alyssa Slotkin, new senator from Michigan, challenging Pete Hexeth yesterday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
So let's take a listen to a little exchange on the house floor that I don't know if you caught yesterday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I'm going to take that as a yes. That was brilliant. That was the most alarming part.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. I just think the risk of this, like, I don't know about him getting fired just because he's not going to go against Trump. Trump doesn't actually care about incompetence, right? Like, he cares about disloyalty. And so... I think that he might be around. And that worries me, man.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
The thing that worries me the most is him getting fired would probably be good because 82-year-old Donald Trump in 2028 trying to get into some shit. I would much rather have Mark Esper in there at that point than Pete Hegseth. But here we are. Anything on the substance of Ukraine's state of play?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Well, who knows how good the deal is. Sure. There's a little nomination news yesterday. I want to ask you about Joe Kent is the leading contender to be the next head of the National Counterterrorism Center. People don't know Joe Kent. I'll put this article in the show notes. I wrote an article about him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
God, about three years ago now, he's run for Congress a couple of times and lost to a friend of the pod, Marie Glusenkamp Perez, one of our favorite Democrats. And I watched this video of him. The shortest way to describe it is there's a group of kind of Hitler youth, like white nationalist young people, Groypers in Germany. Kent wanted to win and get into their good graces.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Cash is outside, says Nancy Mace. She is not a child. She's breaking glass ceilings everywhere she goes. What do you think? That was Jasmine Crockett and Nancy Mace, if you missed that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
So he goes and submits to an interview from like a child in his bedroom asking him about protecting white people. And Kent is like sucking up to him and being like, yeah, I care about white people. He is a very far right MAGA person who is off the deep end on conspiracy stuff. Thoughts about having Joe Kent as the head of the National Counterterrorism Center?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Every conspiracy theory – He's curious about it at least. He might be curious.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Let's talk about that. And the counterterrorism center, and this is like going to be part of under Tulsi's remit, I guess. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah, it is. That's the crowd you have there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I guess, but I get into this a little bit with Kelly in the next segment, so just very briefly. But just for people to understand what this job is, the National Counterterrorism Center was created after 9-11. And that was in the 9-11 Commission. One of the takeaways was that there wasn't communication between FBI and CIA. And so this is a coordinating type role, right? And so...
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
In order to be in a coordination type role, you've got to be able to take in info from these different agencies and then process them and help prioritize and share. Well, if you're a conspiracy theorist and you can't tell the difference between truth and something that was posted on, you know, in the comment section of Breitbart, that's not a great skill set for that role, to say the least.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I just think that's kind of like a manner. So it's kind of like how I say man, you know, kind of like, I was like, Hey man, what's up? And then some people, some people are like, I'm not a man. Don't call me man. You know, I think, I think it was just cultural, but okay, go ahead.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. So I need to update my references. You're right. Like they're getting conspiracies from like app and wokeness on X and not, not from comments on Breitbart anymore. Yeah, that's right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
It wasn't on my list, but you just you piqued my interest with your Elon aside. So I just want to hear you kind of rant rant about it for a minute.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, there was a report yesterday he's going to have an office, I guess, maybe, in the White House. We'll see. Oh, good. Good. But yeah, I mean, look, having free reign to target people inside the government to go after him, he's obviously a very sensitive person, a huge government contractor. All of it is alarming. The Jack Smith report came out. Liz Cheney wrote this about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
The special counsel's one-sex report confirms the unavoidable facts of January 6th. Once again, DOJ's exhaustive investigation reached the same conclusions as the select committee, which you were on. All this DOJ evidence must be preserved.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
But more important now, as the Senate considers confirming Trump's Justice Department nominees, if those nominees cooperated with his attempt to overturn the 2020 election, they cannot now be entrusted with responsibility to preserve the rule of law and protect our republic. As our framers knew, our institutions only holding those in office are not compromised by personal loyalty to a tyrant.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
So the question is now paramount for Republicans. Will you faithfully perform the duties the framers assigned to you? I think we know the answer to that rhetorical question, but you can take it if you want.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Do you have any other thoughts for the Jack Smith report? I mean, it was just kind of confirmed what you guys all covered already.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
in earth like everything goes his way like if karma is real it's going to get bad at some point for him but like i don't think karma is real i've got bad news yeah i know i think we can close the book on that one karma not real you've got to do the right thing for your own purposes internally and to feel good about yourself uh because you're not getting rewarded unless maybe an afterlife i guess we can't close the book on that i don't who knows yeah true true maybe maybe heaven maybe heaven
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I'm not counting my chickens on that, but we'll see. All right. You mentioned the vestiges of the Republican Party and how those embers have died. I'm wondering if any of the vestiges still exist within you when it comes to the conversation of Greenland. I asked Bill Kristol about this. I was like – Does national greatness conservatism still live inside of you?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
And are you at least a little tempted by these conversations about the U.S. acquiring Greenland? And I ask you this question, and there's a fact this morning, because I knew this at one point, but I'd forgotten, so I Googled it. The president that acquired Alaska... Andrew Johnson, America's worst president before Donald Trump. So you can be the worst president and also expand our territory.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Are you intrigued by the new worst president also looking to expand to the great white north at all?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Sensible. Yeah. Adam Kinzinger, realist. I want to do the last thing. There was a Daily Mail story about you on Sunday, and it was a nice Daily Mail story, which is a big change of pace for you for the last couple of years. A mom of four, Amina Hamden, has thanked Adam Kinzinger for rescuing her from a deadly knife attack in the street in Milwaukee in 2006.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I saw you shared this that there are things you didn't know that you learned about this instance. Talk about that a little bit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
So anyway, it's a interesting story. I look forward to hearing about that, man. No, that's cool, man. I appreciate you. You're a great American. You're a good pal. And, uh, It's tough out there, so we've got to take the good stories where we can get them. We'll be talking. Maybe, you know, keep updated on this story and all the other bullshit that's happening in Washington. Sounds good, man.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I'm very much looking forward to it. All right, man? Absolutely. Take care, brother. All right, sounds good. Up next, Senator Mark Kelly. All right, we are back with Mark Kelly, Democratic Senator from Arizona. He was a Navy combat pilot, flew 39 missions in Operation Desert Storm. He was also a NASA astronaut and flew into orbit on four space shuttle missions.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
He's a senior political commentator for CNN, founder of Country First, and he's got a Substack newsletter like everybody else. He's Adam Kinzinger. What's going on, bro?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
He's a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee and had some questions for Pete Hegseth on Tuesday. How are you doing, Senator? I'm good. How are you this morning? I'm doing good, all things considered. Setting aside maybe the future of the Pentagon, I'm doing pretty good. All right, I wanted to start with your exchange with Pete Hegseth from the hearing yesterday. Let's take a listen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
In that back and forth there, I thought it was interesting that for some of the stories that you laid out, his answer was just anonymous smears. But then when we got to young ladies at the strip club, it was that's not true and also anonymous smears. So that was maybe a little bit of a reveal to me about whether the first stories were true or not. What did you think about your exchange?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
He did say that in one case, which makes you think that maybe the other cases, they weren't false.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, possibly a mental break.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, the enormity of the job question, this is what hangs over everything to me, is that the lack of seriousness with which the Republicans took their job to advise and consent on him yesterday was pretty astonishing to me. There's a million examples of this, but there's just one clip I wanted to play for you, if you don't mind.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
That was Republican Senator Mark Wayne Mullen of Oklahoma. I was watching that. I'm thinking, you're pointing at a damn astronaut. You know, Pete is a weekend TV co-host who can allegedly do his job while half in the bag.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Just the lack of caring about the fact that they're pulling this guy off the Fox & Friends couch and putting him in the most important job in the world was pretty astonishing to me. I don't know. What did you think about the defense of his resume from the Republicans?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
You haven't seen any hammered senators being pulled off the floor by their staff?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Matt Gaetz was his colleague in the House. People like to party in the House.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, and again, there are other jobs out there. Doug Burgum, if you kind of want to go around and do a quick one round of questions, seven minutes, half day, move on, that's fine. I don't have any objection to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
But given what you just laid out about all of the different contingencies that you have, if you are running the Pentagon, I interviewed Mark Hertling about this last week, and he laid all this out so clearly. You have to just be pretty flabbergasted. Have you had any conversations with your fellow Republicans? They're just going to do three hours of questions to Pete Hegseth and rubber stamp him?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, therapy. Nothing wrong with therapy. I had to do a little therapy. I'm going to have Jason put... I drive a Dodge Stratus in in post, just so people can... People need that these days. I wish you weren't a liar.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I guess there's going to be some private meetings now, but do you have any sense whether there's any more vetting happening here, given the seriousness?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. It's hard to think about any, you know, do one that if he had the experience, but his personal life was a mess, that'd be one thing. Or if he was a great leader in his community, but didn't quite have the experience, maybe it's another thing, but no, he's not checking anything. You mentioned that you hadn't planned to kind of ask the questions that you did.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Are you coordinating with the other senators about this? I mean, there was some talk that maybe given the fact that, look, Roger Wicker had a Ukraine pin on, maybe it would have been better to try to win Republicans over to try to pin him down on policies where he is separate from the senators. You know, I can't imagine Roger Wicker and Pete Hegseth have the same policy on Ukraine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
How do you guys decide what the strategic approach is in these sorts of hearings?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I just wish you weren't a liar.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Her material is great. I just talked to former Congressman Kinzinger about that exact exchange. Was that the most alarming thing? Obviously, just his background and his existence as the Secretary of Defense is the most alarming thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
But of the actual substantive things you got into, his unwillingness to say that he wouldn't oppose unlawful orders or that he wouldn't use the military to target citizens. Was that the most alarming part to you or was there something else that jumped out?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
You've got another hearing here on the committee for Chelsea Gabbard. His hard confirmation is coming up soon. In a way, that's a little bit of a different challenge than Hegseth, because I think it's possible, we'll see, that some of your Republican colleagues might be against her on policy grounds.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
So have you thought about that confirmation hearing and what you want to challenge her on and whether any of the Republicans you think might share the concerns of the folks on the Democratic side when it comes to Gabbard?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Whether she knows who our ally is in the Russia-Ukraine war might be something interesting to explore. I'm not sure she knows which side she's supposed to be on in that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Okay. Thanks, Seth. We could go a million ways with this. So I guess I just – let me put a quarter in and what's your biggest picture thought on the hearing yesterday?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, if you can't tell the difference between Gateway Pundit and the Wall Street Journal, that's not, when it comes to reporting, that's not a great sign. Okay, I got to let you go. I have one last thing, though. I have one last thing I have to ask you. Just, you know, we just have to get on the record on this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
There's a lot of concerns Democrats are struggling with young men, you know, and so I was watching it. I thought you gave Pete Higgs some really good, tough questions, but I just, I want to be clear. You know, you don't have any issues with, you know, pounding some beers on a party bus. OK, if some bros want to pound some beers on a party bus on the way to the football game, that's OK with you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
That wasn't that's not your issue.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Have you ever passed out on a party bus?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
What about a keg stand, though?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
What is your favorite beer? What are you drinking right now?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I love Tucson. It's sneaky cool. So I'll have to go check it out the next time through. Tucson's a cool place. All right. Thank you so much, Senator Kelly. Come on back. We're going to have to talk about a little politics next time in Arizona. So we'll see you soon. All right. Let's do that. All right. I appreciate it. All right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Thank you to favorite of the pod, Adam Kinzinger and to Senator Mark Kelly. We'll have much more tomorrow on the Pam Bondi hearing and the rest of the parade of horribles. Look forward to see all that. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Even on the women in the military thing. Yeah. Like as an example, and I know we got Democratic staffers that are the tune in sometimes. So just like friendly tip, like he said he was against women in the military in November of 24, two months ago. Right. And so I just despite the fact that five of them asked about this, there was never a so what changed since November?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Like what changed since November? And just a very direct, specific question. Here was the quote in November. What changed? And then he's like, blah, blah, blah. I was like, so you just changed your mind? Did somebody tell you a new thing? Might you change your mind back in two more months? You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Like there just was no, a lot of times it was a rant, you know, and this is why we have Mark Kelly on in segment two. I thought he did a nice job and a couple others did a nice job. So it wasn't everybody. So I just think that was to me like the biggest, like just process failing of just being able to go at people directly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Do you think Tim Sheehy will ask her how many push-ups she can do? Or is that just, is that only a question for dudes? I think it's just for dudes, but they'll ask her. How many push-ups can you do actually? Now we're right here. How many push-ups can you do these days? I don't know, man.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. What'd you do that you asked forgiveness for? Right. You never told us. You said you got, you were saved by Jesus. What did he save you from? What did you do? You never told us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Does it have to be? I mean, it only takes three of them. I know. Are they sure?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Adam, that's like Russia shit. That's China shit. We're sucking up to this guy. It's crazy. We kind of immediately got into the process. The biggest possible picture, somebody that served and was in Congress, was on these committees. This is an insane person to make the Secretary of Defense. It is total madness. Goodness, like there's not one person. It's like, guys, this is a little crazy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I mean, we should at least we should at least pressure test this guy. He's been half drunk, allegedly on a weekend is a weekend talk show co-host for the last decade.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Does she want to do a YouTube segment with me anytime? We're welcome. She'd be good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
In a way, it's worse than that. I'm glad you brought this up, but I hate to obsess on the process, the kinds of questioning, the kinds of meetings. It feels like this is a Punchbowl DC podcast or something, but the process stuff matters on things like this. This man has been nominated to run... The largest bureaucracy in the world, in addition to it being the military.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
So there's life or death decisions on the line. Like the idea that he couldn't even meet in private with Democrats before this hearing. I guess he's going to do some meetings after the idea that they that they truncated the hearing so that it was like only a couple hours and they didn't get to ask him follow up questions.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. As we're recording right now, the Pam Bondi confirmation hearings are happening. There'll be much more on that tomorrow. Today we got a Hegseth doubleheader. In segment two is Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona. But first, he was a Republican congressman from Illinois. He served in the Air Force during Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
It just shows a total lack of seriousness from the people on the Republican side that they've decided that they are just completely going to throw away any ability to vet this person, any even pretense that this job is serious and that the vetting should be taken seriously.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
And that is why it's fucking laughable to hear that they are going to do oversight if this is the way they behave during the advice and consent process.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
No, let's actually stick on that for a second. Don't say, okay, fine. This is a good point. Because this is a hit on the Democrats and on the Republicans. Because for the Democrats, it's a strategic thing, right? You know that these Republicans don't give a fuck about somebody cheating on their wife. All right? They're in a Donald Trump cult. Okay?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
So doing that, talking about that to embarrass them or whatever, it's fine if somebody wants to spend seven minutes on that. But conceivably, you could maybe peel off a Republican on policy issues. Maybe not. Maybe not. Okay, maybe not. But you have Roger fucking Wicker, who is the chairman of the committee, who's the senator from Mississippi, wearing a Ukraine pin. Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
And Hank Seth is testifying, who's clearly just going to do whatever Donald Trump and ultimately Vladimir Putin wants, you know, in order to totally sell out our friends in Ukraine. How can you in good conscience, like, wear a Ukraine pin and say you care about Ukraine and then not even pressure test this guy on whether he intends to do what he can to help our allies in Ukraine? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
The Republican Center is a Ukraine thing. I mean – Do you think that Roger Wicker has convinced himself that Donald Trump is going to come around on this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
What is he doing wearing a fucking Ukraine pin? It is just so shameful. Like the election of Donald Trump is essentially giving Ukraine away. And so then he wears a Ukraine pin on there and doesn't. even challenge Trump's nominees on this? Like, what do you do? He's stupid. He's just been fooled.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Yeah, I saw one military expert when I was reading this morning about kind of the various possibilities suggested something that seemed interesting to me, which was, you know, that this could be Putin at his most devious, or maybe you decide to kind of play along with this for a little while, and then trump up some, pun not intended there, some idea that the CSAR is broken by Zelensky, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Because his goal in the end, right, is to continue to not have the US, you know, be involved more and more. And so you don't want to anger Trump, though. I don't even know what you could do that wouldn't have Trump and Vance change their tune on giving more weapons to Ukraine, but maybe something. But I don't know. What do you think about that notion?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
This is a little bit of a sticky wicket for Senate Dems. And while I think they should hold the line in opposition, I've already seen Chris Coons out saying that this morning. There's going to be some legitimate counter views. So I'm going to explore that more tomorrow with Sam Stein, etc. But I think that will be an interesting strategic battle coming this week.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
All right. Well, I'm going to read you the spin then from the ostensibly pro-Ukraine, the old traditional pro-military wing of the Republican Party. And you tell me what you make of this. Here's Dan Crenshaw. He wrote this yesterday following the deal. Great work by Team America. Let's examine what happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
One, Trump means what he says and his intent on making good on his campaign promise to end the war. Two, ending the war and ensuring Putin obliges and never takes Kiev is in America's interest. Our strategic deterrence remains established. Three, Trump isn't abandoning Ukraine. The pause on aid was very short, but Zelensky had to be brought back to reality. Trump did that effectively.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Four, the minerals deal is a great idea. Five, now the ball's in Putin's court. He'd be a fool to continue his maximalist policy. Six, Trump still has plenty of leverage over Putin, even without additional military support. There are still many economic screws that can be tightened on Russia. What do you make of the Dan Krenshaw spin on the state of play?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Yeah, I think the interesting thing of both the Crenshaw comment there, on number five on the ball on the court there, he said to be full to continue his Maximus policy of fully conquering Ukraine and eventually moving on to other Baltic states in Moldova.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
One wrinkle in this budget for our DC listeners, one fucking enraging wrinkle really, is the bill includes $1.1 billion in cuts to the DC budget. That could affect policing. I thought these guys were tough on crime. It is going to affect access to health care services and other public services for people that live in D.C. And here's the crazy thing about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Marco Rubio, in the aforementioned spat with the Poles that you talked about earlier, he said something similar, which is like the Polish, they need to thank us because Russia would be on their border if it wasn't for the effort here. And to me, that just shows there's this massive disconnect.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
between the old neocon wing, who are kind of quasi-acknowledging that Putin does have aspirations beyond Ukraine, and the J.D. Vance Trump argument, which is essentially, this was about NATO and encroachment, and Ukraine started it. I don't know how you square those two points of view. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
This time of year, a good hoodie is essential, but it can be tough to find one that will last through the season. And if you're somebody like me who caught the Mardi Gras flu or a spring cold and you need to sit around in something nice and cozy, well, there's nothing better than an American Giant hoodie. As I've told you guys before, I've been long a fan of American Giant.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Well, actually, my husband's been long a fan. talking about how his American Giant hoodie was his favorite. I never got to borrow it, and I never really got to just enjoy the comfort and coziness of it until they joined as a sponsor. And now we're an American Giant hoodie family, and boy...
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
where we bundled up in our American Giant hoodies, well, you know, at least during the chills part of the flu. Then during the fever part, we take it off, and then the chills part, you put it back on. You know how it works. Let me tell you why this is such an incredible hoodie. The iconic classic full zip is the jacket that started it all.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
It's custom heavyweight fleece with side panels for mobility. That's why they're calling it the best hoodie ever. It's body-skimming fit with a double-lined hood and reinforced elbow patches. I mean, it's a hoodie that'll last. And I can vouch for that. My husband's had this hoodie for a fucking decade, it feels like. American Giant makes staples.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Other staples besides the hoodies that are anything but basic. They got a long sleeve...
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
crew t that i really like they've also got some high-rise pants and slim roughneck pants you can check out as well so this season go snag the hoodie that will bring you comfort for life the american giant classic full zip and save 20 off your first order at american-giant.com when you use code bulwark at checkout that's 20 off your first order at american-giant.com code bulwark
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
It doesn't actually even save a single cent. It is just the cruelty is the point all the way down. It is just revenge and resentment and going after these big city liberals and the D.C. swamp and whatever. This money is D.C. It's in the D.C. budget. So it will just sit around in the D.C. treasury. rather than be used as the mayor and the city council had determined.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Let's talk about the Europe side of it from your expertise. I had Michael Weiss on. I don't know, last week or the week before, time's moving in very strange ways in Trump 2.0. And we were talking about this question of, okay, so what if Europe has to go it alone?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
It doesn't look quite as bleak on that front as it did the morning we were talking after the Oval Office meeting, because we have continued to send the material and the weapons as of today. So our weapon shipments are going back to Ukraine. So it looks a little bit better. But
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
If we get to a point where Europe has to go along with Ukraine and to your point where Macron or whomever needs to take a leadership role in this, you know these armies better than anybody. You know their preparedness better than anybody. I mean, is that even possible?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
But just like on the equipment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Yeah. As far as that's concerned, like Europe could do it. I mean, obviously, there'd be a massive.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
The French have been pretty impressive, speaking of old Europe, though, what we've been seeing from Macron and really across the board. I mean, hell, even Le Pen is kind of saying, Le Pen sounds better than Marco Rubio sometimes when he's talking about the war, which is interesting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
So I expect there'll be a big fight over that in the Senate and a couple of other items as well. We'll have more on all that tomorrow. There's a new CNN poll out today I wanted to flag. It shows Trump with his lowest marks on the economy ever, for good reason. It looks like the economy's in shambles right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Yeah, that's true. One more thing on Europe, because there's some news this morning on the other kind of The economic element of this, which is certainly going to impact our relations in addition to the military. Trump imposed 25% tariffs on steel and aluminum coming from the EU. Just before we started taping this morning, the EU announced they're retaliating.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
The measure would cover about $28 billion worth of goods, not just steel and aluminum, but also... Home appliances, agricultural goods, motorcycles, bourbon, peanut butter, jeans, all the, you know, American apple pie will also be hit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
You know, again, having dealt with like the sensitivities of these on the military side, obviously this sort of trade war is going to exacerbate the tensions and the issues as well, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
I guess it doesn't really matter what the motivations are behind this. But really, if you just assess that, there are only really two options. One is just Trump pettiness. He thinks everybody else has been idiots, and he wants to prove that everyone else is an idiot and he's the right one, and so we've got to go his way.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
And the other is that he actively actually prefers the autocratic world order. and would like Putin to gain strength and is fine with our democratic, liberal democracies weakening. I mean, it's one of those two things, and there's no other possible explanation, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
It's lower even than it was during COVID, as far as his personal approval ratings on the economy. 56% oppose. I think there's room to grow there. And there's already a Politico story out this AM where some internally are trying to blame Howard Lutnick for all this. That's right. The Secretary of Commerce is responsible for Donald Trump's impulsive, ridiculous, harmful trade wars.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Let's talk about those chops. The thing that's been particularly striking to me is the VA. That one's kind of hard for me to wrap my head around. I mean, like as we are recording this morning, it seems like there's going to be massive cuts to the Department of Education, maybe 50% or more in workforce. That's something that everybody saw coming, you know, whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Going after EPA grants, any Republican administration would have done that for better or worse. The indiscriminate cuts at the VA, I don't really understand the rationale behind that. And I'm curious, like what you've been hearing from other veterans and like the degree of impact we're going to see there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
I mean, the letters are all right there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
and all of the other instability that is resulting in the market crash. It's resulting in the cuts to jobs, particularly in the federal workforce. But as my colleague Andrew Egger reported this morning, even in some private sector companies, we're starting to see announcements that there are going to be layoffs related directly to Trump's policies. So I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
What's the chatter like about this? And I'm sure you're on either text chains or email chains or message board hearing from people that it's not my world. It's somebody that hasn't served. I'm just kind of wondering what you've been hearing from folks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
You said one thing there that piqued my interest, talking about how it's a semi-requirement for active duty military to not comment on politics. It does raise, this time the pun is intended, the issue of the new nominee for the Joint Chiefs Chairman, Dan Raisin-Kane. I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
I mean, obviously, you're not going to disparage somebody personally, but there is the situation with him where Put on the MAGA hat and said he'd kill for Trump. You know, some stuff that was a little eyebrow raising to those of us who are outside of the military. I'm just wondering what you made of his pick.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Right. It was Trump that said that he did that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Let Nick, maybe the fall guy for this, we'll see. But it's telling that even inside the administration, they're recognizing the trouble they're in on economic matters. So, all right, up ahead, we got a deep dive on foreign policy. Our good friend, excited to welcome him back to the podcast, Mark Hurtling. Stick around for that. Hello and welcome to the Borg Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Yeah, that takes us back to Hegseth. I mean, it's like equal parts farcical and scary, like this idea that we're going to scrub the websites. We're doing a Control-F for the word gay, so we're going to get rid of the Enola gay. We're doing a Control-F for transition, and so we're losing biographies where it mentioned that somebody transitioned from one job to the next. The whole thing is absurd.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
But I'm wondering what you make of it and whether there's any – Serious ramifications beyond just this kind of how like offensive and ridiculous it is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
A couple of the other cabinet or quasi cabinet in the case of Musk on Tulsi. We've had this mixed bag, right? On the one hand, you know, she has done some things that would assuage people's concerns about, you know, intelligence sharing, etc., You know, she did not go fully down the crazy pipeline right out the gate on a few of her decisions.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
That said, there were some reports out of the UK that now they're concerned that our allies in the UK are saying we're concerned about sharing intel with our allies in the US. I guess my question for you is, like, if you had an old counterparty in the UK call you just to talk this over, how would you even think about this if you're in their shoes?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Delighted to welcome back a retired Lieutenant General and the former Commanding General of the U.S. Army in Europe and the pride of Christian Brothers College High School in St. Louis. It's General Mark Hertling coming at us from Florida. How are you doing, sir? Hey, Tim. How are you doing today? I'm doing all right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
And then in addition to that, we have our shadow cabinet member or maybe a supra cabinet member, whatever you want to call him, Elon Musk. I wanted to get your take on Senator Mark Kelly. We did an interview with him on our YouTube page, folks, so go check out Andrew Egger did that. And he's been really stalwart on this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
And he was over in Ukraine right after the, you know, we stopped sharing intelligence, you know, basically just get a sense for what's happening on the ground to do what he could to kind of reassure partners there, meet with friends. you know, counterparties. And he posted a picture of this, of himself being in Ukraine. And Elon Musk replies, you are a traitor. That's pretty ominous stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
We're both just living here, recovering from the flu and the red states, trying to hold the line. Yeah, just thankful it's not measles or COVID. That's the way I feel about it. No measles yet. No mumps. No rubella. I wanted to give people an update on the state of play regarding Ukraine, and then we've got a bunch of other kind of related issues. There was...
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Yeah, on the anger part, the thing that got me angry, and it was rare for me, General, so maybe I'm growing, but I drafted a tweet that I deleted because I was so mad. Because I felt like it was, in some ways... It might be read by Senator Kelly or his folks as being a slight to them, and I didn't intend it that way, so I won't explain my view longer.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
But he said on CNN, I think, with Caitlin Collins, that several of his Republican colleagues have called him in private to just say that they were – they were offended on his behalf and sorry and blah, blah, blah. And I don't even know if he said the word sorry. And I saw that. And that was the thing that made my blood boil. I was like, if I was Mark Kelly, Mark Kelly's a bigger man than me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Cause if I was Mark Kelly and these guys called me and said that I would tell them to kiss my fucking ass. And, uh, Dan, you can, you can go on Fox and say it and then call me, but I'm not really interested in your private entreaties, but it is, I think pretty telling about the nature of these guys.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
that like they know there's at least some of them left fewer maybe than in 2016 that know better that know this is wrong. And I don't know what their calculus is here. So I don't know if you got anything to add on that, but I felt like I needed to get it off my chest.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
I guess the outlines of a deal, at least a deal between us and our adversary, Zelensky, in Riyadh. The U.S. put out a statement that was kind of weird and overly fawning towards the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, who hosted us. But they announced that Zelensky had agreed, if Russia agrees, to a 30-day pause in fighting. U.S. intel sharing has continued now. That's already happened. U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Me neither. I think it's going to have to get worse before these guys get smoked out. All right, well, some ominous topics today. Can we end with a laugh? Can we end with a laugh for folks? Please.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Bill Burr, he's a comedian. You know that guy? Yeah. He was on Fresh Air with Terry Gross earlier this week. I don't know that Terry knew what he was signing up for. And somehow he got on to Elon Musk. And I just thought it would be a nice way to end the episode to listen to Bill Burr talking about Elon Musk.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
I think you pretty much covered it too. Thank you so much as always for coming back on the pod. I think that we will need your expertise a bunch in the months ahead. So I look forward to talking to you again soon. Okay. Hey, thanks, Tim. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it. All right, everybody else. We'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Borg podcast. We'll see y'all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
weapons shipment are back on. That's already happened. The polls confirmed that this morning. Meanwhile, the Russians didn't really change their operations any. There were reports of explosions in Kiev last night, 14 killed across the day, across Ukraine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
And so Russia, I guess the other thing I should mention is that there's a Reuters report out this morning saying that they may not agree to a temporary truce with there's a Peskov statement saying, you're getting a little ahead of yourselves. We don't want to do that to reporters asking about the truce. So that's, I think, my summary of the state of play.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
What I missed, what do you want to add to where we're at?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
That's a good point. Let's actually roll back the clock a little bit before we go forward, because it does seem pretty clear at this point that the ending of intelligence sharing was aimed at forcing Ukraine to the table.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
and that the United States, the President, Vice President Rubio Waltz, had decided that it was okay to sacrifice the Ukrainian deaths and the injuries and the destruction that we saw over the course of last week because that served the longer-term goal of, I guess, bullying Zelensky into coming to the table on this sort of deal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
That was pretty clear at the time, but with the view of hindsight, that seems like that's what happened, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
I thought I was really negative and outraged over what happened to it. That's really just settling in with me right now, the accessories to war crimes element of it. Because it is true. I mean, it's a great point because that's really what they were doing. I mean, they were attacking Kiev, attacking cities, attacking first aid workers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Right. But they had a lot more success because without the intel sharing, a lot more of the drones and bombs were getting through, essentially. That's basically what happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Did you know that the skin around your eyes can be 20 to 30 years biologically older than the rest of your face? I'm just reading this ad script here for the first time. And I got to tell you, one skin people. Yeah, I know. All you got to look at is that these bags under my eyes from this podcast grind I've been on. I know that I've been working on it. But, you know, 20 to 30 years older.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
It's a fun fact. I didn't quite know, but I understood the sentiment. Well, here's the other thing that the OneSkin ad script writers are telling me. It's up to five times thinner too, which it makes it more vulnerable to things like wrinkles, sagging, and cellular damage. That's why OneSkin's founding team of scientists created OS OneEye.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Designed specifically for this ultra-delicate area, OS1i has the highest concentration of one skin's proprietary OS1 peptide, the first ingredient scientifically proven to reverse skin's biological age. It works by switching off the senescent cells. I love saying the word senescent. that accumulate here and make your skin look older than it needs to. I've been lathering on that one skin eye.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Don't judge the sponsor based on how I've looked on the last two YouTubes, okay? One skin can only do so much, you know, when I haven't shaved and I've been coughing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
and hacking up a lung and had a fever and then chills and then a fever again you can't judge one skin based on that because otherwise i was looking fresh at mardi gras you had a great under mardi gras curve but my face was looking fresh my eyes were looking fresh given the work plus alcohol intake that i was doing one skin is keeping me keeping me going over here people so i'm Take my advice.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Hey everybody, before we get to General Hurtling, I got a few news items and programming notes for you. For next level fans, JBL Sarah and I will be together on Thursday. So we're taping a little late this week. It'll be out probably Thursday evening, Friday morning. Keep an eye on your podcast feeds. Also a reminder to download our Bulwark Takes podcast feed on your podcast player of choice.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Go get some OneSkin, especially if you're a straight guy. Founded and led by an all-woman team of skin longevity scientists, OneSkin is redefining the aging process with their proprietary OS1 peptide, the first ingredient proven to help skin look, feel, and behave like its younger self. Get 15% off with code BULLWORK at OneSkin.co. That's 15% off. OneSkin.co with code BULLWORK.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. Invest in the health and longevity of your skin with One Skin, your future self will thank you. All right. So I want to look at where we go from here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
You wrote for us a really, I think, compelling piece about what a frozen conflict could look like and how it could benefit Russia if they do. And we don't know at this point, but if they do decide to agree to a ceasefire, that could be in their benefit. And you lean on your experience in Europe and having to monitor some of these other frozen conflicts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
So just talk about that and how you think the situation could benefit Russia if we do end up in a frozen conflict.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
for bonus content, breaking news, hot takes, etc. Because there's no next level, I wanted to pop off quickly on a couple news items for you. The House passed a budget to keep the government open. It was a continuing resolution with support from one Democrat, Jared Golden of Maine. Now it goes to the Senate. where it will need seven votes to pass.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Aiding and Abetting a War Criminal
Don't give MAGA any ideas about giving away California and Oregon. That might sound like a nice idea. I know the other one. So what is your sense? You don't have a crystal ball, but if you were gaming this out, war gaming this, are you expecting that Russia will... accept this ceasefire?
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Hey guys, it's Tim. It's Wednesday. So we got this two-part episode to focus on specific issues. First, we got Carol Lennig, maybe my favorite investigative reporter over at The Post. Don't tell everybody else. She specializes in Justice Department and FBI issues. So we are going to drill down on this whistleblower report regarding...
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
And it really is of a piece of just kind of that he wants to sort of end the US's values-based role in the world, right? Like that there is a Western, you know, kind of alliance that is based on rule of law and democracy and, you know, common values and that we are going to have alliances based on that and interests that are informed by that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
and like the shuttering of USA ID and some of his other actions are just like tied to this, right? Like he doesn't see the U S is playing that role anymore. Like we're not going to do it like that. We're going to do it like China where we'll, you can bribe people. We have interests. We'll, we'll give you guys a favor here, but then if you screw us, we'll screw you back. Right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Good to have you. That beat is kind of not really relevant right now. Government misconduct, Justice Department and FBI, nothing happening for you, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Like that's how he sees things. Zero sum. And, uh, I don't know. It's going to have a lot of reverberations, I think, around the world. Carol, any final thoughts for us? Anything else? Any deep reporting? Any secrets? Any news you want to break?
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Well, all right, Carolina, do come back. A lot's going to be happening inside the DOJ. We look forward to having your reporting on that and Secret Service. I wanted to get to your reporting on the plane crash. There's so much. So come back soon and appreciate you very much.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Thanks so much, Carol. We really appreciate her. Before we get to the next guest, I just wanted to put a finer point on what we were talking about there with the Republicans in the Senate. Because, you know, Carol's doing the Lord's work out there. Got to do her reporting. And so haranguing her about the cowardly Republicans doesn't do us a lot of good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
But I have to say, it is absolute madness that the Republicans would confirm this person. This is not really even in the line of what we were talking about with Hegseth. Hegseth, totally unqualified, an insane appointment, a preposterous appointment. But that is a value judgment, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
We were asking Republican senators to make a value judgment on that person's character and preparedness and bio, and obviously that was too much to ask for all but three of them. But in the situation of Patel, for him to be brazenly lying to their face multiple times, lying about his involvement in the January 6th choir, lying about the way that he associated with cop beaters who were jailed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
All right. He's supposed to be the person that is in charge of the federal law enforcement in charge of federal police. He lied to Senator's faces about, About how he was working with cop beaters on a fucking song, right? Like he lied to them about that. He just like looked at their face was like, oh no, when I said we, it wasn't me. It was them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Tanning. Okay, that sounds nice. I want to start with Kash Patel. We'd reached out because what I think is the biggest story of the day, really, even though there's obviously a lot happening. We had these firings at the FBI. We talked about this with Andrew Wiseman last week. Top FBI officials pushed out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
And, and like we just, we, the insurrection is broadly. So he lies to them about that. I think that it's certainly possible we need more research into this, but it's certainly possible he lied to them about not knowing about the pardons.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Again, I find it pretty hard to believe that it didn't get to him, that Trump decided to pardon all of these insurrectionists that Kash Patel had been working with and producing songs for, and he was the nominee for FBI director, and he caught no wind of the fact that Trump planned to pardon all of the cop beaters. I find that hard to believe. Maybe that happened. Maybe there was a wall.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Maybe Donald Trump was Uncharacteristically private in his communications. But I find it hard to believe. And then we have this. The firing of these FBI officials. The firing of agents. Just because they were doing their job investigating people who were involved in the attack on the Capitol. Cash says blankly. You just heard it twice. Cash says point blank. He was not aware of that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
And here we have contemporaneous notes saying KP wants movement. So not only was he aware, according to this report, he was directing their firings. So I just don't know how you can pretend to care about law enforcement or back the blue or integrity or rule of law or anything and confirm this person to be the director of the FBI or
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Without finding additional information that the whistleblower is lying or something else. There's some other story here besides the obvious. Because he just told a flat, bald-faced lie about his role in firing the people that he is now nominated to lead. And he did it right to the Republican senator's face. If they have a single shred of dignity left...
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
They would demand that he testify in front of them and answer questions about this and tell the truth. Obviously, there's no reason to think they have any dignity left, but I just don't understand how you can even lie to yourself or convince yourself.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
that you are acting in a responsible manner if you confirm this clown who just lied to your face multiple times about very relevant subject matters, about his involvement with people that beat police officers. If you have one shred of dignity left, you must hold Kash Patel accountable for his testimony and and for his behavior. I don't expect that they will do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
And then there was a broader mandate that anybody that was involved in the Donald Trump campaign investigations. There's going to be a review of their employment. You guys at the Post had reported that FBI officials sent out a questionnaire over the weekend to determine personnel involvement in cases related to the January 6th attack. So all that was happening at the FBI.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
This is not a Lucio the football situation, but it is worth not just acting like this is just some other thing. This is not just some exaggeration or some spin. It is a bald-faced lie about his role in firing the people that have dedicated their life to protecting us. And it's fucking shameful. Anyway. All right. Up next, a little bit of a change in tone.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
We got Bob Putnam, author of Bowling Alone. I think it'll be good for everybody. Let's take a deep breath and think about the broader issues facing our society instead of this old twerp cash hotel. Stick around for Bob. For a long time, pod listeners have been following the saga of Aretha, the neighborhood cat that we were feeding. Well... It's our cat now. The cat's in the house.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
I had many of you, many listeners admonishing me that this was my cat for months. I refused to accept that. I was resistant to it. But a couple weeks ago, I was stuck in New York while New Orleans had the 100-year snowstorm. Couldn't get home. Cat was cold. Cat kept coming to the door. And next thing you know, I get a FaceTime from my child with a shit-eating grin on her face.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
And she's just like, oh, guess who's inside? Guess who's our cat now? So there you go. It's kind of Smalls' fault, I think, the sponsor of this year's podcast. It's their fault, but also their credit that Aretha is now the family pet. This podcast is sponsored by Smalls. Smalls Cat Food is protein-packed recipes made with preservative-free ingredients you'd find in your fridge.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
It's delivered right to your door. That's why cats.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. To get 50% off your first order plus free shipping, head to smalls.com and use our promo code
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
the bulwark here's a review from a real smalls customer jennifer m i feel like we're in severance jennifer m said after every feeding he gets his burst of energy and starts running around the house and his fur is softer and more vibrant with higher contrast honestly i wouldn't recommend anything else smalls was started back in 2017 by a couple of guys home cooking cat food in small batches for their friends a few years later they've served millions of meals to cats around the u.s you know to my point in the intro i don't know what more you need to know that the cat kept coming back
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
The neighborhood cat, Aretha, was getting fed Smalls and now it's my cat. I don't know what more endorsement you need than that. After switching to Smalls, 88% of cat owners reported overall health improvements. That's a big deal. The team at Smalls is so confident your cat will love their product that you can try it risk-free. What are you waiting for? Give your cat the food that they deserve.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Meanwhile, Kash Patel was going through his confirmation hearings. And at those confirmation hearings, Cory Booker asked him this. I want to play what Cory Booker asked Kash Patel.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Head to Smalls.com and use promo code THEBULLWORK at checkout for 50% off your first order plus free shipping. That's the best offer you'll find, but you have to use my code THEBULLWORK for 50% off your first order. One last time, that's promo code THEBULLWORK for 50% off your first order plus free shipping. I am here with Professor Emeritus of Public Policy at Harvard.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
His books include The Groundbreaking Bowling Alone, The Collapse and Revival of American Community, which 25 years later remains one of the most cited works of social science. He's also the subject of a recent documentary, Join or Die. Ominous. I love the ominousness of that title. It's right in line for our podcast. It's Bob Putnam. How are you doing, sir? Thanks for doing this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
what Kash Patel knew about the firings of the FBI and whether he perjured himself during his confirmation hearing. So this is a massive story, and she's working on a bunch of other issues as well.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
I'm glad we're on the Bob level now. All right. I had Derek Thompson on over at the Atlantic. I don't know, about a month ago now to discuss our antisocial century. And what we discovered in that convo is that he was basically cribbing from you. And so I figured we should go right to the source, you know, instead of instead of the intermediary.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
I can say we love Derek. We have a mutual teasing relationship. All right. So I want to start here. You wrote Bowling Alone in 2000 before basically phones as we know them and social media as we know them now. And so like there's this chicken or the egg question kind of about this, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Like a lot of the conversation now around our isolation is centered around the phones and social media, but a lot of this stuff was happening before. So I'm just kind of wondering how you parse all that out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
So now we have a whistleblower report out today that's indicating maybe Cash might have been aware of that. So a lot there, Carol. Why don't you get everybody up to speed on what we know?
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
I think it was before that. But yeah, it was about three weeks in that I think that we decided that hugging was better.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
It does make sense. And so there are two parts that I want to get to. One is like the social science and then the tech. But it is obviously true, I guess, for all of us that have lived through COVID, for at least any of us that aren't deep introverts, that the face-to-face of it matters, right? That you gain something from a face-to-face that you don't from a Zoom.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
I mean, I have just a chill going up my spine thinking about the Zoom hangs that we had, where your friends would get together and have a glass of wine or whatever and hang out. And it was awful. I quit doing them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
halfway through because i was like this is worse than nothing actually and i but i can't really put my finger on why what is it about humans that makes this face-to-face contract nutritious and why is it that we don't just then do it if we all if we all know that it's better why are people not doing it as much why are we sitting around scrolling on our phones
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
It's interesting. I was thinking about this interview because on Saturday, my friends were meeting for like a happy hour. But the Super Bowl is here in New Orleans. And so I was sitting at home. I was like, it's just too big of a hassle. I'm going to go down there, get an Uber, et cetera, et cetera. I'm not going to go. Canceled it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Like three hours later, I was sitting alone on the couch looking at social media. And I was going, why did I do that? Like, why did I do, why did I cancel this? Like, yeah, it would have been annoying to go, but the payoff would have been better. But there is something like all of us, like at different levels, right? Like I'm pretty extroverted.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
So that is the appeal of both of those things is going to be different from, from another type of person. Right. But we all have the same thing where we, you know, sometimes are doing stuff that is against, uh,
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
what would bring us happiness and you would think that through 40 plus years of life like i have like you would know yourself well enough but it's like we're fighting against kind of powerful forces that are taking us the other way i guess i don't know if you have any other thoughts on that yeah and i repeat not powerful genetic forces the genetic forces are generally pushing into the go to the darn game and hang out with people right but the technological and
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
That's a good transition.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
I want to talk about the consequence part, and then we'll get about how you deal with your family members or friends that you have disagreements with.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
All right, let's hear them. Yeah, I love a little disagreement. Let's hear them, and then we'll get to politics. What were your disagreements?
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Right. But you can make ties now. I guess his point was... In that third category, you can make ties with somebody on the internet that has a shared interest with you that lives in China that you couldn't do that. I guess not China, but that lives in Hungary or whatever that you couldn't have before.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Well, this is actually kind of related a little bit to a topic I wanted to get to because I think it does relate to the politics a little bit because I'm not going to get into the social science data here, but on its surface, a lot of times when you talk about this social isolation, I think maybe because you use the example of the bowling alley, people have an image that we're talking about middle class and upper middle class people, maybe white people in particular, but that is really the group that a lot of this kind of conversation is focused on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
I was getting to the fact that your research was really not about this. But a lot of times when you're in the podcast world, it feels like the anecdotes that a lot of people use. are kind of like upper middle class anecdotes because it's mostly upper middle class people that are fucking doing podcasts and reading the Atlantic. So nothing against podcasts in the Atlantic, which I do. Yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
That said, actually, like the isolation, the intimate tie isolation, like the marriage rates, You know, the sociability, it's going down across the board, but in like elite circles, it's doing less bad. And like in liberal elite circles, liberal elite circles in particular, like marriage rates are higher, divorce rates are lower, connectivity is higher. If you just look at the numbers. Yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
And it's in the groups that are increasingly going MAGA. Yes. Which is diverse, really, like the working class groups that have, where the Democrats have lost some ground. Like that is where these numbers are the worst, actually.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
To me, that is a much...
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
more challenging like nut to crack right i don't know like you know trying to figure out how to get whatever you know you're a college educated upper middle class little johnny or like i say all different names now you know little little dylan little corbin you know to like hang out with more people or to be in your 20s and be in a city and try to figure out how to join the kickball league or whatever like that's like a very
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
addressable problem. I mean, we haven't done a great job of addressing it since you wrote the book, but we can wrap our heads around it. Do you have thoughts from the book, from the research you did on non-college men and figuring out how to reverse the isolation trend? Because they have less access to opportunities to socialize, busier, more access to phones and
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
So we're talking to Carol first, and then we're continuing kind of our series on the loneliness epidemic, and we're going to the OG to Bob Putnam in segment two, talk about that and kind of what his Bowling Alone book is. how that reverberates in our politics today. It's a super interesting convo.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Obviously, you almost roll your eyes to say video games, but whatever, TikTok. I don't know. Do you have any thoughts on ways to mitigate it with that demo in particular? I'm glad you asked. I feel like I've been asking good questions. I've had a few compliments so far on my questions, so I'll take it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
A little trash talking, you know? You can do it no matter whether you're skinny or muscly or portly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
I just Googled 4-H just to test you. 1912, right there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Wasn't my cup of tea. I did the Cub Scouts. Wasn't my cup of tea, but that's okay. I saw that other people were having fun.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
It's a good sermon. It has me thinking about what could serve that purpose. I want to tie the knot on two other things before I lose you because you mentioned the Thanksgiving dinner. And one of the things that you write about is in the social capital is there's the binding social capital versus the bridging social capital.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
And the binding are people who are basically like you and your characteristics and the bridging are people who are different. And so within the political context, the bridging social capital, I mean, clearly, I don't know, while bowling of loan has aged well,
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
quite well as well as anything you know you're right up there with uh amusing ourselves to death as far as uh social science books aging well uh the upswing your 2020 book how america came together a century ago and how we can do it again aging a little a little so so so far i don't think so at all actually i think that book is the book forgive me okay no please so how do we do it how do we buy how do we do some bridging social capital and come together a little better
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
You know, it could be anybody, KP. There are a lot of different people with names, KP. Sorry, continue.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
I would like you to also tie the room together on the phones, because you mentioned that they don't have to be used to degrade our social cohesion, right? Like you could imagine a way where the technology supplements it. Obviously, that's not really happening. I mean, it's happening in certain niche ways, but it's not happening at scale.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
So I'm just wondering what your thoughts were on that, if we had any final substantive, productive lessons for how we could use the phones for good, or if that's not possible.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
I was just teasing you. We all have subheads. The how we could come together again in 2020. I just it's 2025. Maybe, maybe in 2035. It'll look good. I'm just saying right now today. We're not we're not exactly it's not exactly kumbaya in this great country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
No, I wanted to gather as much wisdom from you as I could. And there's something to it. Look, I also am secular, an unlapsed Catholic, but there's no doubt something to it. You know, there's no doubt something to the decline.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
No, no, no, no, that's okay. He's a good pope, though... You know, I don't know. We could do a whole nother episode about that. The Catholic Church is polarizing like the country. Yeah, they are. Pope hasn't exactly had the impact on cohesion that you would have hoped. But anyway, to be continued. It was an honor. I really appreciate you coming on and I hope folks can check out. join or die.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Or if you didn't, if your sociology teacher didn't make you read Bowling Alone, go read it. It's a joy. It's a delight. And hopefully we can stay in touch. I appreciate it very much.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Thanks so much. Carol Lennig, Bob Putnam. Really appreciate both of you. Wonderful podcast. We'll be back tomorrow. As you know, we'll see y'all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
And squirrelly, I'm going to say squirrelly, you say wily, I'll say squirrelly. And I think maybe both of those are possibly kind, depending on what the facts emerge.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
On the other stuff, a bunch of other stuff in the news, the Elon presser yesterday, the news that's out this morning about how there was an uptick in inflation last month and a bunch of other issues, the elimination of the penny, all the fun stuff. I get into that on the next level with Sarah and JVL For newbies, that's always out on Wednesday afternoons. It's a little more politics focused.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Oh, well, there are a number of cases. And this came up multiple times during the hearing, right, where it was also, he also claimed he didn't know about the pardons that were going to be happening or the instruction. And again, that's a kind of beggar's belief. And then, you know, there was a moment where he was asked about, you know, his involvement with the January 6th choir.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
And how he had told Steve Bannon that we were doing this. Remember Adam Schiff was asking about this, that we were involved in this. And then he was claiming that he was using the royal we, like the editorial, right? Like it wasn't really me as part of the we. So like there were a number of times where it's just like this person is lying.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
I just want to go back again to the, I feel like we're in Breaking Bad. You remember the scene where it's like W.W. ? And Walter White is sitting there with his brother-in-law, and they're like, who could WW be? Is it Woodrow Wilson? Is it Walt Whitman? It's KP wants movement at FBI. That's what the attendee purportedly wrote in the contemporary notes about
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
I want to play the Cory Booker exchange one more time because we talked about perjury and lying, but this is as direct as it gets. Let's just listen to him one more time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
I'm not aware. At the same time, KP wants movement at FBI. And there's no real gray area here. Is there? It's one or the other. He either was lying or the whistleblower is lying, right? Like somebody's not telling the truth here, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Yeah, I mean, it's the head of the FBI. I don't know how Republican senators, I know that they will, but I just don't know how you look the other way. Having somebody that is not trustworthy in this role, and it's not like running the Department of the Interior. You would think that you would want the truth, and somebody's lying about treatment of federal law enforcement officials also.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
And so people can go either catch that on YouTube or download the next level feed on your podcast app of choice. So that will be up on Wednesday. So there's that. That's the agenda. Hope you enjoy as much as you can. Hold on to your hats. Up next, Carol Lennig. Hello and welcome to the Bulldog Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
It's not even unsympathetic bureaucrats to Republicans. It's top-level federal law enforcement. I guess maybe they are unsympathetic now. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
The FBI, you think, is maybe different than the SID, but I guess not anymore. I guess the federal law enforcement officials, people investigating drug crimes and domestic terrorism are just like kind of lumped in with
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
mid-level department of education staffers now and i don't i don't know i'm curious though from your reporting like what it's like like inside the building and obviously there's some limits what you can say but like you know your sources the doj and fbi i mean how what are people feeling about you know right now kind of what's happening and what's coming
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
Brian Driscoll, the acting director of the FBI or the DRIZ, it does seem like something's going to come to the head with that and if cash gets confirmed. I'm just wondering if you have any reporting on this. That's maybe the most crazy situation in the whole government.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
That will be an interesting one to watch. It's been really, it's kind of bracing the whole scenario. I mean, he's just this accidental acting bureau head, you know, rising to the moment. Okay. One other topic about DOJ stuff that I just feel like is a little bit got lost is Trump ordered a pause of the executive order on enforcing the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
It's about a week ago you reported on this. This comes with some other directives that have come from Bondi as she has come in about not really enforcing FARA and really de-emphasizing white collar and corruption crime altogether. Just wondering what you're hearing about that and kind of the implications of this change of emphasis from the DOJ.
The Bulwark Podcast
Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam: Lies and Moral Obligations
I'm delighted to be here today with one of my faves, an investigative reporter at the Washington Post. She writes about government misconduct, presidential power, the Justice Department, and the FBI. A four-time winner of the Pulitzer Prize, her books include A Very Stable Genius, Donald Trump's Testing of America. It's Carol Lennig and her cat. How are you doing, Carol? Hey, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It does say something about our country, though. Right. Like, I mean, that is really like we were joking about being under the covers at the beginning. Like, to me, it's more about that. Right. Like the realization that, like, we chose this and that not all of us chose it, but that, like, broadly, the country chose it rather than like a particular like I'm scared that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I don't know, Eagle Ed Martin in the, you know, DC prosecutor's office is going to come for me. I don't know who the hell knows what will happen, but like, it's less about that. Like the deeper questions to mine kind of are about what it says about the country, I guess. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Maybe lost, including elected Dems and some Dem strategists that I've been talking to. Tom gives some real tangible things folks can do. And reading it, it buoyed me a little bit when I was like, yeah, that's a good idea. That's a good idea. Yeah, this is manageable. I mean, it's bad. All the things Anne was worried about are worth worrying about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
here's an element of it that's a little closer to your work though what what if it's less about wanting to put food on the table or whatever and i'm sure that's true for some people but for other people it was like more about feeling like that the culture was going away from them that like movies were you know all this like woke lash like everything there's we have a
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
you know, we have a black little mermaid now or whatever, or like the comedians can't do the jokes that they used to do anymore. And like, we need to, and that there's been overreach on that side on the left and that we need to, you know, there needs to be a boomerang back. some of those feelings are probably illegitimate and bigoted. Maybe there's some, some real legitimate feelings there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I don't know. What do you think about that kind of element of it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
In some ways, it's like a different side of the same thing. A lot of it is just lawyers and PR people being cautious. Honestly, I understand why some multinational corporation that has a bunch of interest before the government would want to be cautious right now. Because Trump is capricious and will target people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
And I also would understand why that corporation might like not want to publish some, a comedy that is a little bit too provocative or there might be a backlash or whatever, or that they would want to, you know, do something that I think would get them good PR, right? Like all of that is like related to caution. I mean, like some of it's more real than others, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
coming in and saying like oh you shouldn't have this in your shower that you know there's like not gonna get a phone call off to this pod though are you fucking serious like why would you do this okay i was listening to one of the other interviews you're doing you said you're working on a i was hoping to work on an adaptation of the bag man podcast that uh rachel and i did about spiro agnew i love this i keep bringing up the spiro agnew story recently because it was like
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
But there are some countervailing influences that the Dems can leverage, including the courts and the people that Biden put on the court recently, but also some strategies from Congress. So hopefully we can talk to Tom about that at greater length. But you should go read the article regardless. Two other just sort of news items I wanted to jump on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
He has to resign. The vice president has to resign. It's been a while since I looked at it. It was like $10,000 or something.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It is funny to tell that story now in the context of the incoming president has a cryptocurrency and the richest man in the world is taking over the Treasury Department. And it's like, man, that was a controversy in the early 70s when Spiro was taking 10 grand for some construction.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
The other Spiro thing that is actually interesting is he, uh, I mean, he was on the fake news stuff. He was really kind of the earliest person to weaponize that. And it goes back, I mean, I'm sure there was somebody that made, of course, people complained about the media always, but like to really weaponize it and like mass mobilize people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I hope that gets made because I think that'd be really good. The Spiro story is good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Y'all. pretty crazy out there. I was just talking to Ben Stiller about whether we're living in a simulation or whether this is real life. So that tells you a little bit something about my mental stability. I'm thinking about what's happening with life and what craziness could be around the corner.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
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The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
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The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
On Friday, I guess it was, I gave the plea to Bill Cassidy to do the right thing, my senator here from Louisiana, acknowledging during the plea that I wasn't exactly optimistic, but... I was thinking there was at least a chance, as they might say in Dumb and Dumber, a different aughts comedy from the ones we're going to be discussing on this podcast. I was thinking there was a chance.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Other life insurance brokers offer impersonal one-size-fits-all policies that may cost you more and cover you less. While SelectQuote's licensed insurance agents work for you to tailor a life insurance policy for your individual needs. And have you ever worried about getting coverage with a pre-existing health condition?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
SelectQuote partners with carriers that provide policies for a variety of health conditions. High blood pressure, no problem. Diabetes, that's fine too. Even if you have heart disease, SelectQuote partners with carriers that can cover that condition and others. So, get the right life insurance for you for less at SelectQuote.com slash Bulwark.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Go to SelectQuote.com slash Bulwark today to get started. That's SelectQuote.com slash Bulwark. All right. Two more politics things for you, then we'll get to fun. I'm obligated to bring up the fact that the shadow president, Elon Musk, did tweet that you went full retard above a pick of you with your endorsement of Kamala Harris. I guess it was a quote of Tropic Thunder.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
That's got to be kind of surreal to be at the, like, this is where we're at, right? To see this guy, like, tweeting the Arsler at you and also, I guess, like, taking over offices in the West Wing and also... Well, that part of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Has he ever called you? Have you ever got a phone call?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I'm just spitballing on you right now. But if you offered him a spot in Tropic Thunder 2, we might be able to get out of some of this stuff. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
If he finances it, In exchange for that... I'm not going to say simple jack. Could we get USAID back? I don't know. I think that seems like as good an idea as any. These guys do like attention, it seems like.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
That's just one idea. Hopefully a germ of an idea could turn into something. Back when I was doing the anti-Trump super PAC way back... four-eyed wrinkles, like in 2016, people kept being like, all the money that these rich guys are putting into the anti-Trump ads, couldn't we just, I don't know, buy them off? Couldn't they have just given that money? Couldn't they have got Trump to the table?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I think in retrospect, that probably would have been more effective than some of the tactics we used.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
No, there's no revelation. But it is, I guess, just to expand on your point, it's just so stark. That they would all do it for him. This takes me back to the simulation thing. The four richest people in the world who have FU money are all prostrating themselves for access to the power wielded by this guy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
like it's like it almost is like a mood like you're trying to test the limits of greed like there's a movie script here about like how embarrassing can we make it to get these guys to debase themselves and the answer is like unlimited amount of embarrassment yeah or how obvious or just sort of like and he's just the guy's willing to do it as you has been well documented he's been willing to break the norms all right the other uh
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Well, there wasn't a chance. Bill Cassidy caved to Trump. Somebody that absolutely knows better, has demonstrated that he knows better when it comes to vaccines, when it comes to public health, agreed to put RFK Jr. a complete quack unqualified conspiracy theorist in charge of the Health and Human Services Department. He got through in committee on a party line vote.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
kind of Hollywood and politics thing. I wanted to spit ball by you besides my tropic thunder idea, which I just came up with on the fly. I'm feeling pretty good about, um, I was wondering if, you know, you, I guess had done them fundraisers. I haven't talked to Dems at some level.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I do wonder, like a lot of times they rely on Hollywood a little too much about for various things, but I do wonder if they might be able to learn some lessons from Hollywood on like mass marketing to people. Like I was watching the Tim, Timothee Chalamet, Bob Dylan, you know, media tour, um,
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
And, um, he's like this liberal noodle boy from New York that had mostly like girls and gay fans, like up until two minutes ago. And he goes out there and he's like, I'm going to go on Theo Vaughn. I'm going to go do, you know, the college game day and like, we're going to repackage me and put me out there in a way.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
that resonates with more like a guy's kind of audience type of people that would like a Bob Dylan movie. And that worked. And I do wonder if there's any lessons there for Democrats. I might push back and do that. I don't know Timothy that well.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
So we need a genuine sports fan to be the Dem standard bearers, what you're saying, or somebody that is genuinely more in touch with guy culture? I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
All right. I want to put this bug in your head because I feel like you've got to have some value here. Like, you know, Night at the Museum, you've like done mass market. There are Republicans buying these shoes. You figured that out. Like there are Republicans going to some of these movies. All right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It is not. I also think those people are lying, right? It's like, I dare you to go watch Happy Gilmore and come back and still be, and still, you know, you're really going to cut yourself off from that. You're going to, you're going to cut yourself off from this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
All right. One last political thing. I know you've been kind of an advocate and like traveled the world doing, um, Stop talking about displaced people. I had the list in front of me, but I lost it. Oh, here it is. You went to Germany, Jordan, Guatemala, Lebanon. I mean, this is the top of my worry list right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I mean, obviously, we have some acute concerns here at home, but I do think we're entering into a phase where there is just not going to be a lot of support anymore from the U.S. for people
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Cassidy was the one who could have stopped it. By the time this publishes, you know, we might have a schedule for when the actual floor vote will be. But at this point, it seems pretty clear that RFK is going to be Secretary of Health and Human Services. Similarly, Maybe not 100%, but probably 95% likelihood at this point that Tulsi Gabbard is going to be the Director of National Intelligence.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Me too. This was a big one for me. And it's tough. Yeah. You know, some of this can be filled in by NGOs and, you know, people like yourself, right? They're raising money for groups and big donors and foundations. But, like, fundamentally, part of this is nation states need to help, right? Like, there need to be safe harbor countries.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Like, there's a lot of regulatory stuff that goes into, you know, this as far as visas, right? Like, at some level, there's only so much people can do. You know, if you're making the camps nicer, that's one, you know, but, like, come on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
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The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
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The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices along with premium fabrics and finishes. I love it. I just got a new sort of like an army green shacket from Quince that I could not be more excited to wear.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
very excited it was chilly the week that i got it and this week i'm off to palm springs i don't know if it's the right palm springs vibe but as soon as i get back in new orleans i'm going to be in that shacket it is looking good and um you know i've got a bunch of different quince items now that you'll be seeing me rotating through here on the youtube
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
A total fold on this one. We talked about this a little bit with Anne on the podcast yesterday. But across the board, not just Cassidy, Langford, Susan Collins in the case of Gabbard. Unbelievable. Well, believable, but... You know, unbelievable in the sense of un-fucking-believable Susan Collins. And who else? Todd Young. All are going to say that they're going to vote to confirm Gabbard.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
You know, I wouldn't steer you the wrong way on something like this. So indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quince.com slash the bulwark for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash the bulwark to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash the bulwark. All right, let's do some severance. Okay. I'm up to speed. Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
On Thursday. So it'll be coming tomorrow. Episode four will be coming tomorrow. No spoilers for me until I get back home over the weekend because I'm going to be missing it. I'm on the road tomorrow. But I guess just at the beginning, what was it? I mean, obviously, it's like you have a production company. You have your pick of the litter, I assume.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
What was it that appealed to you about Severance?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yeah, he's so good. It's funny, all these things, whenever I listen to Hollywood podcasts, these background conversations, and you hear the alternate paths, the show would feel weird not on Apple Plus and not with Adam, right? It does feel very aligned with the whole vibe of what the other stuff is on that streamer. And then Adam is so great. I'm like, who else would have this? Exactly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
You also have Totoro in there. I guess he's not a podcast listener because he didn't recognize me, but we were shopping together in Brooklyn the other day. Oh, really? Yeah, it cracked me up because he was doing his own costuming.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
He was talking to the guy where I'm at some boutique store, and he's talking to the owner of the store, and he's like, yeah, they gave me something, but it's not right, and I want something else.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
it was like such a scene he's like he's super stylish too yeah he looked great and i was like i have to buy something from the store now so it worked out for the um did you see he walked the runway in in milan brazilia i did not a couple weeks ago yeah I gotta go. I gotta go pull that up when we're finished. But I, and he's like that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It's gotta just be a joy to be a giant tutorial every day or not every day, but for the time that you're on set.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
So there's that. One last topic. There's been a lot of discussion, and Anne and I made some jokes about it. And a bunch of... Everybody's making jokes about it, which are these little 22-year-old wizards that Elon has running around, running roughshod over our government, using AI to... figure out which government functions should be completely shut down.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Okay, quick spoiler, if you haven't watched the session, just fast forward 45 seconds. Who had the balls to make a Totoro walk-in love story pitch?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
And I guess it's not a spoiler because it was having a season one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yeah, I did. I looked at my husband and I was like, this is goals here. You know, can we be Totoro or Walken 15 years ahead? It's interesting because the show doesn't take place now, right? What time period are we actually in? Do they ever say? I can't.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
help you there Tim oh we don't know oh got it it could be yeah we don't ever specify it doesn't take I mean we don't have tick-tock I guess is what I'm telling like you can just there's certain ways that you can sense that it's not the year 2020 yeah it's weird there's there's certain technology that's in the show and then there's certain you know cars don't seem like they're from today but
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
As you said, it is a little bit of a corporate commentary, right? Like, obviously, this is kind of a secret corporation, and the characters are, you know, separating their, you know, outside their work life from inside the work life.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
To what extent, like, do you think that is, like, particularly pertaining to, you know, the technological questions we're dealing with today, or, you know, something like the big tech giants? Is there anything that is specifically on point towards that, or is it more of a
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
This takes us back to the metaphysical questions of are we in a reality right now? Yeah, I thought you were taking it to the metaphor of life like my life. Like, could I sever having to do this podcast off from the rest of my life? Would you want to? Yeah. Well, I don't know. You're asking me that right this second. I would say no. There would certainly be an appeal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I think I would enjoy myself at the MJ Lenderman show at Tibbettina's tonight more if I was able to sever off the rest of this, but maybe not.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
They've had some success, obviously, with USAID. There was news out here late Tuesday from CBS saying that USAID missions overseas have been told to shut down. All staff are being recalled to the U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
No, I do. I love it. I don't love that I have to do it. These are the things I have to talk about. I mean, this is fine right now. But, you know, the other things that I have to talk about. But, yeah, I guess that is right. The question is, like, what is it? It's sort of about what...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Oh, that's funny. They just have the door factory cameo in the second episode. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yeah, I guess that's true. And also the happiness element of it, right? Maybe that's not true. Maybe I'm happier at the MJ Lunderman show knowing I've earned it. you know? Yeah, sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It's kind of in conversation with that movie, Eternal Sunshine. Sunshine, yeah. I loved that movie.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yeah, there definitely are some parallels. I also want to ask about the four tempers. Why are we taming Frolic? The four tempers Keir is taming are woe, frolic, dread, and malice. Curious what those four mean to you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
This new USAID deputy who I've mentioned on the pod, Peter Marocco, who was an insurrectionist in the Capitol on January 6th, he told State Department leadership if they didn't come back to America, they'd be evacuated by the military. So that's pretty ominous. So we've got these little 20-somethings running around, shutting down USAID, getting into the treasury payment systems.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
What do you think about those four tempers?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I think there's something more there. I think there's something you're not telling me. Whoa, frolic, dread and malice. I'm just going to keep thinking about that. All right. My last, my husband's theory on this is that when the brain gets severed, it also affects their comprehension.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
So when, so when they're doing the computer games, if they could use their real brain, they could see what is on the computer and it would tell them what the company does. Interesting. What do you think about that? Yeah. It was interesting. All right. I want to close. I have a game I want to close with for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
But before we get to the game, I had one other topic I forgot, which is kind of related to the game because some of the characters in the game will be relevant in this question. Why can't we make good comedies anymore, like the 2000s? And not because of the stuff we were talking about earlier, just fundamentally, are people out of good ideas? I mean, you had a run...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
That was like Zoolander, Dodgeball, Fockers, Meet the Parents, Happy Gilmore. And I was like, what was the best comedy last year? I Googled it. I couldn't find one. I asked our culture editor. He goes, ooh, tough one. Comedy's in a dire spot. He's like, maybe The Fall Guy. And he goes, maybe Nutcrackers. Yeah. Which I haven't seen. I have to admit, I haven't seen. What's the deal?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Think about how easier it is now to have access to like weed vapes. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Hey, everybody. I know it was a little bleak yesterday, so I got a treat for you and for me. Ben Stiller wanted to come on the pod. We've been DMing. He does a lot of work with refugees and Everything that's in the news with USAID and everything. I was like, man, Joe, come on. We can talk about your work doing that. But then also take a little break, do some Hollywood chat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Oh, I thought you were going to say there's a much younger generation that's brains are broken and that we can't reach them because they have too much anxiety.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
And there's been a little bit of pushback about the snark targeting these young men. They are all men, I should mention. Among the pushback, there's this video. I'm going to put it here in the show notes about this guy, Luke, who is one of these young guys. And he seems brilliant. I mean, he was using AI to uncover...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
For a minute, I was like, am I just doing the old guy thing where it's like things were so much better when I was a teenager? And then I started doing some Googling, and I was like, no. In this instance, things were better when I was a teenager. But is there anything you just think back on that gives you a chuckle? Any little moments?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Everybody always asks you about, like, the famous ones. Like, do you have any deep cuts that you really like people should go watch? Any Ben Stiller movies? I mean, I guess Cable Guy is not really a deep cut, but a culture writer, Sonny, also said to me when I was brainstorming with him about this, he was like, prescient. Cable Guy was prescient.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It was kind of about people's obsession with true crime, you know, infotainment. And, like, so you nailed that. Is there anything else like that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yes, but it's the same. It's just like on here. It's like the same thing. It's like it could be the TikTok guy now and this point would be the same.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Real life's on my list. Okay, here's the game we're going to end with. You came on a political podcast, so you asked for this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yeah, it was cheerier than Ann Applebaum. Oh, really? Do you have any funny stories you want to end with? Yeah, funnier than Bill Kristol and Ann Applebaum.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
thank you it's kind of like a generational gag kind of humor thing um i mean if you if you feel like you failed us like do you have like a funny story do you have like a tight five or anything like what like if what if we were going on jimmy fallon don't you prep something that's funny for jimmy fallon do you prep anything yeah sometimes and it's always like a lot it's very stressful and it's i always feel like i'm not funny enough and like i'm just the least funny supposedly funny person i know
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Got it. So you do, but you do prep. You do prep. So when Jimmy's like, tell me about your teen son's crisis that he had last week.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Okay, that's why podcasts are doing well. I don't know about this one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It's great. I should have listened to your DAX for prep. Okay, we're back to the game. This is good. This is professional podcasting right now. Here it is. I don't have music to go along with it. Maybe we'll put it in a post.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Who did this character vote for in the 2024 election? The Alzheimer's nurse in Happy Gilmore. Trump. Trump. White Goodman. Trump. I had to say Trump. Trump, okay. Chaz Tenenbaum. Kamala. Kamala for Chaz Tenenbaum. I thought that was borderline. This one was an easy one, but it's a sleeper movie, so I wanted to shout it out. Roger Greenberg. Oh, yeah. I think Kamala for sure. Kamala for sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
language, previously unread language on these ancient scrolls, deciphering these stories. The first word that they discovered in these ancient Greek scrolls that had been burned was purple. I mean, the guy seems super excited, super smart, super earnest. And I understand the instinct to be like, wait a minute. Let's not tear people down. They aren't responsible for Elon's sins.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yeah, he might have actually moped and not voted. The James Murphy soundtrack on that is so good. Okay, and finally, your four main characters, the office characters in Severance. Who are they? Who are they voting for in the 2024 election as their outies? Okay. As their outies. Their innies wouldn't know what's happening. I'm not letting you off the hook.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
The other three for Kamala. Ben Stiller, thank you so much for taking all the time. Everybody go watch Severance. If you are watching it, listen to the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam. It is delightful. And do you have anything else you want to promote? Anything else you're selling?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yeah, thanks. I kind of feel like when I get those bros over on my pod, I kind of let their hair down a little more and like give, you know, kind of.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
they're not worried that the that the audience might get mad yeah yeah and uh so we got him to let loose yeah we had like 18 minutes of just like his inner anger came out and for for he's he's kind of a vulcan you know so like getting his inner anger out i thought was i i enjoyed it so i'm glad you did um do you want to talk about the nuggets or the next at all Oh, fuck!
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
We were supposed to talk about that. Let's do it really quick. How do you feel?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
They're so fun to watch. And Cat in New York, huge. I was like, is this really going to work? Because he's kind of an eccentric guy in the big New York media.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I've got my Donovan Mitchell hate from our bubble jazz Nuggets rivalry days. So I can't be for the Cavs. Okay. F the Celtics, obviously. Yes. F the Sixers, obviously. So I don't know. The Knicks are kind of like, in a weird way, it's like New York. So usually, you know, like the Yankees are always hated. But the Knicks are kind of like the lovable...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Oh, man. You look great, man. I wouldn't have pegged you for going back Earl Monroe, Clyde Frazier era.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Now I'm worried about you. I'm worried about the letdown, like the crash might be kind of hard if it doesn't happen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I'm sympathetic to that. I really am. I look at these videos and I'm like, wow, this kid is amazing. This is exactly the kind of kid you'd want working in the government in a different situation. And that's the element of this, in a different situation. Some of the other guys have been having people send me links to their social media feeds. They've been retweeting Nick Fuentes, who's this
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Is it possible that Nico, the GM, was severed from what was happening on the basketball court when he was making the deal with the Lakers?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I mean, they definitely are scarier against the Nuggets this year for like the year 2025, having AD and those two centers that they got. Like they got a lot of size to throw at Jokic. That's how the Timberwolves beat us. So I kind of don't want to draw them in the playoffs this year. But it's still insane long term.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
The West is going to be tough. I don't know. It'll be interesting. I don't know about the Luca LeBron pairing, but long-term Luke is going to be unbelievable there. It's just, I don't know. How do the Lakers get so effing lucky?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
They seem to, you know, if we weren't in a simulation, if the NBA wasn't rigged, like if, if every once in a while, you know, bat like karma hit people that deserve to get bad karma for once, what would happen would be, Luca was like, I didn't agree to go to the Lakers. I don't really like LA. I'm pasty skinned. It's too much glitz and glamour for me. I love my boy Jokic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I'm going to sign with the Nuggets when my contract expires. That would be, we never get to have nice things like that. Like, you know, it's a smaller market team getting a free agent, but I don't see that happening for us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I think it was a separate, there've been a lot of conspiracy theories out there, but I think that like Nico just maybe seeing Luca looking fat in like, maybe in like the office building, but then it's, it's, he gets, his brain gets severed when he's watching the court. That's like a different thing than when he's meeting with them. And he's like, why is this fat guy the best player on our team?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I love that Russillo in his sports pod, he was like, Luca could be smoking cigarettes on the bench and I still would not have made this trade.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
He's incredible. All right. I'm glad. That was a good prompt. Thank you. You're in charge of the show now. Come back anytime. I really appreciate it. Thanks, man. All right. Ben Silver. Everybody, go listen to the Severance podcast. We'll be back here tomorrow. We're going to have to talk more about the news tomorrow. I'm sorry. We'll be back here tomorrow. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
neo-Nazi, Nazi youth, whatever you want to call it, Groeper, Nazi adjacent, you know, this young kind of white identity politics, the leader of this kind of young men who play white identity politics, who make a lot of racist and conspiratorial statements, you know, he's this, some of these other guys are between the Quintus. So I, you know, Luke might be great.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Some of the other people Elon has doing this might be racist or trolls or not great. I don't know. It doesn't fucking matter is the thing. Like we have laws. We have ways the government should work.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
22-year-old wunderkinds who have not had security clearance should not be implementing mass firings of career USAID servants who are running around throughout the world, advancing American soft power, helping people, advancing freedom, helping actually make people healthy, not in the Maha sense, but in the sense of providing medicine to troubled, displaced people who need it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I mean, a lot of people out there that are doing really good work, earnest workers that shouldn't be bullied by 22-year-olds who are being sent into the government as if this is a fucking private equity firm that's stripping down a company for parts. We have laws. We have regulations. There are ways to go about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
If there are programs that don't work, they have a Republican fucking Congress and Senate that could pass a piece of legislation that... Done whatever they want. Shutter USAID if you want. Pass it through the House and Senate. Use reconciliation. Get Donald Trump to sign it. Okay. The fact that a couple of these kids might be smart and earnest does not make their mission a noble one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It does not alibi the fact that Elon Musk is doing this in a way that is extra legal. So I just wanted to take an opportunity to weigh in on that since I didn't want to burden Ben Stiller with that. Ben Stiller is unburdened by what is happening with 22-year-olds in the Department of Treasury. Unfortunately, I'm not. And so, after this, I'll pass it over to Ben. We do severance. We'll dodgeball.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It wasn't maybe quite as light affair as I wanted, but there are at least some laughs for everybody. So I hope you enjoy it. We're taping this on Tuesday afternoon because I'm headed out to Palm Springs for a book festival for the rest of the week. And so if something happens between Tuesday night and Wednesday morning that wasn't covered here, you'll know why.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
At the very end, he's going to tell me who he thinks famous Ben Stiller characters voted for in the 2024 election. I find that very delightful. We do a little Nuggets and Knicks talk. I hope you guys enjoy it as much as I did. I'll be back on the con Thursday with Friend of the Pod. Look forward to seeing you all then. Up next, Ben Stiller. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I'm your host, Tim Miller. After going full totalitarian autocracy fears yesterday, I promised you a little bit of fun. So I'm delighted to be here with the executive producer of the new Apple Plus show, Severance. I guess it's not a new show. The second season is new out now. And the host of the Severance with Adam and Ben pod. He's done a bunch of other stuff. You might have heard of him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It's Ben Stiller. How are you doing, Ben? Hey.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Oh, man, that's embarrassing. But thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Well, I appreciate that. Because, you know, a big part of me wanted to just like, get under the covers and like watch sad movies and like read, read depressing Nazi era fiction and just like check out but like, unfortunately, I had a job to do. So honestly, it's been good for me to to like kind of wake up and have to do this every day, talk to people, process it, you know, that's that's healthy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Well, thanks. I mean, it's not exactly the coal mines. I'm not exactly Zoolander in the mines here, but I appreciate it. I'm doing my best. I do want to start one. Well, I guess it's kind of heavy or it could be funny. We could take it whatever way you want. But I was listening to your New York Times interview and you kind of started talking about
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
like you know the nature of reality in the context of the severance show and so i wanted to start here is this real like are we alive is it possible that we're severed from like a better earth somewhere else you know have you have you thought i've been thinking about that at all the last month it's been a weird month i mean honestly i've been thinking about yeah just reality in general and i don't know if that's just where i'm at in my life or you know
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
You might give me some insights. I'm just thinking about the 19-year-olds that are running the Treasury Department right now, and I'm like, maybe actually there's a 19-year-old up there in the sky running this whole thing, and he's getting a good laugh.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
But before we get to Ben, I just had a few stray thoughts on some news items. I just wanted to... to share with everybody. The first one is, it's kind of an action item. Tom Malinowski, former Congressman from New Jersey.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Have you thought about this? I mean, you've got to be thinking about how to engage. And obviously, you've done some political engagement before, some charity work, of course. You're doing this. You don't have to do this. I'm sure some people's PR people would be like, why are you going to talk to Tim? Who the hell knows what he's going to get you to say about the president?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
And the Scheinhardt wig company might get mad at us, our corporate overlords. So how are you thinking about all that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I think we're going to hopefully have him on the pod here in the next couple of weeks to talk about this at greater length, but he has a really, really great piece in the bulwark that was out on Tuesday morning called five things Dems must do to fight Trump. Now go check that out if you haven't, because it gives a real, an action plan. And I know there are a lot of people that feel like,
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
What about the business side of this? I do promise we'll get to severance stuff at the end for severance nerds. We'll do plenty of severance talk because I'm obsessed. But I'm curious about the business side of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
In my world, in journalism or broadly defined, you're seeing some stuff from the Washington Post, from LA Times, from various other media outlets that are being more cautious now, that are pivoting, they're worried they might get sued. I'm wondering, are you seeing any changes in whether things are getting stifled creatively? From a Hollywood perspective, or do we not know yet?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I kind of feel like we... Didn't get that in the first Trump? I don't know why. It's not that there wasn't great art in the first Trump, but it wasn't like during that four years you look back on that and feel about it the way that you might about the civil rights movement, all this amazing music and movies. Why do you think that is?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Susan Crawford, the Democrat-aligned judge. You are affecting all of humanity, the destiny of humanity. Sam, what do you make of it? Good. Good.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
I think that was in like hour 22 or 23. You can kind of hear his voice going, his mouth's a little dry. And so just like being able to summon that kind of spirit at that hour is pretty impressive. And, you know, I think there's like a tendency to want to go into, from us in pundit world, like going to figure skating, judging on this. And for me, it's just like, man,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
he's trying to get people going. Will it work? I don't know. Like, will it land with people? Will it land with just one person? I don't know. But I think that it is like at least being responsive to this thing that we've been talking about a lot, which is like, there is a demand out there for people to say, fuck this. Like, like, come on. Like we can do that. We can fight this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Like it is not, don't despair. And he was at least being at minimum and maybe more than this. He was being responsive to that demand.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Do you feel like Western civilization was on the line in Waukesha County tonight?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Stall the day. One less day. One less day, yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
I agree. And you're making a good point about who is the target here, audience, for this. And a lot of ways, really, it is.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
people that are anti-trump right i mean they're democratic partisans maybe not but they're anti-trump and anti what musk is doing right and they they are looking for somebody to be a leader to channel their energy to demonstrate sacrifice to encourage them to get off like all the things that you said like right and i think a lot of times when people get into the analysis of this sort of stuff it's like
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
well, this went over the swing voter in Waukesha. And it's like, no, it's not going to win over the fucking swing. Obviously not. But like that isn't the only objective. Like that isn't one objective of politics. It's one thing people need to do. But there are other like elements of this. You know, there's the legislating element. There's the leadership element. There's the motivation element.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Are you not? I'm happy. I'm happy that Elon's sad. And it felt a little overwrought to me. Just a little.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
And so I agree with you. I think he's successful in that regard. I want to play one other clip that just kind of gets into the core of what the substantive policy critique was he was offering.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Again, this is another example of something we've been talking about. It's tough. The strategists are all like pivot to kitchen table issues. And it's like hard, right? Because how do you get attention for that? Well, like this is a way to get attention for it. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
And I do think while I've been like, you know, banging for more kind of emotional reaction from the Democrats on some of this on the democracy stuff and the deportations and all that, you know, this is a way to get into the economic issue. And I think in a way that is pretty compelling, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Like that, that, that is, that speaks to like the political opportunity for Democrats, which is what are people getting out of this? I think that is a better framing than being like, our egg prices are up or, you know, trying to troll around that. It's like, no, it's like, have you gotten anything out of this?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Destiny. Are all of our destiny settles on this Wisconsin Supreme Court race?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
I think that there are a couple things that are really important about the race that may be a little short of, you know, the fate of Western civilization. But I think they're pretty important. Number one is Elon Musk... could not just go buy races.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Maybe that was the intended audience, but he should focus on a ghetto audience. We're getting a little high on our own supply here.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
I've got one other... We have to do this because it's a political podcast. He's thinking about running for president.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
I'm just sitting there. I'm just leaving that there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
They're all thinking about it. This is a real thing. And I don't know. I'm open to everybody. Everybody get out there. You're yawning already? Sam, we got a lot of time left. We got a lot of time left. All right. Pull it together. Pull it together. The people don't pay zero dollars for this podcast to have a yawning guest. Did I just lose this? All right. So Corey's going to run for president.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
It was pretty good. More is more. More is more. I've got one other attaboy to a Democrat that I want to close with. This is a very unusual podcast today. But first, we've got to do a little serious stuff. As you mentioned earlier, a total bloodbath today at HHS.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Our new colleague, Jonathan Cohn, who is awesome, and everybody should sign up at theblog.com for his newsletter if they haven't yet, has a new one out tonight, RFK Junior Guts, America's Health Bureaucracy. It's been a little hard for me to follow this because a lot happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
And I guess also before you tell us what we know, we've had amazing feedback from our listeners and viewers and readers who are in the government or friends who are. We have a tip line, thebork.com slash tips. Folks have been sending it in. It's totally anonymous. So if you or a friend were hit by these cuts, please tell us your story. But anyway, what have we learned so far?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
And I think that there are people, particularly on the left, particularly progressives, I had some folks who have come up to me that are very worried about just elections going forward, Elon monkeying with it, the Twitter, the bots, the amount of money that he has. If you can't buy a Wisconsin Supreme Court race, then it's going to be very much more challenging to buy a bigger race.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Yeah, I'll get to the political element of this in a second, but the real substantive health and effect, particularly on the research side, to me is the thing that I just keep coming back to. And there are a lot of terrible stories, but as we get these stories on the tip line and I'm reading them, the ones that jump out to me are always like,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
We're in the middle of a 20-year study on whatever it is, diabetes or a specific type of cancer or whatever. And that is stuff that is not easily remediated by some rich guy coming in and doing it or the private sector obviously coming in and doing it. That's not like...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
some of this other stuff which is maybe patchable you know it's like this is we're effed you know and like maybe europe starts to do more and but like all that takes a lot of time and there's real suffering oh no no yeah no you're absolutely right i mean look nh budget's what 30 billion dollars we're not going to get rid of all of it but let's say we do cut five seven billion
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
It's not like you can't buy any race, but I think that it is... Let me stop you there because...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
CNN has a story about how China has launched some large-scale military drills from multiple directions around Taiwan this evening. So, you know, great. So in addition to that, handing over a lot, all of the soft power, maybe the hard power might be coming for us as well. Do you see any direct political thing?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
I mean, the CDC, not to just be rank politics, but like the CDC, like there is a lot of these jobs are in Georgia. There's going to be a big Senate race there. I mean, you know, we hear from people. There are places, a lot of places in the country, the Virginia governor's race. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Though maybe, and I guess there's a macroeconomic thing. We're going to get deeper on economic stuff tomorrow on Thursday's pod because it will be on the heels of Liberation Day. I want to talk about Liberation Day next. But I do think that just this combination of this kind of quasi-government austerity, it's kind of like haphazard austerity policies of the government with the tariffs.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
It does contribute broadly to the economy. So anyway, Liberation Day. Dude's going forward with it. We've had a running kind of debate between me and you. You thought it was all smoke and mirrors. How long do you think these are going to last? What are you taking? I think he's bought in, man. These guys... Well... It's hard to pull back from the rationale they have.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
They think that this is central to their vision for the golden age of America. And I don't know, man, your former colleagues at Politico reporting that a lot of people around the president, vice president don't really get it or understand, but like they want to go big. And so, you know, I don't know. I think they're going big. What do you think? Are you going big or are they faking it tomorrow?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Could he steal a random marriage race somewhere? Sure. To me, I think that Elon is not magic. He does not have scary magical powers. He is not able to manipulate the machines. Here's what he is. He's just a man.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
That's what I was going to say. He backfired. I think Elon's money, I think probably, which we'll get to next, because the nature of the backlash against Trump and the nature of how these special elections work and the nature of the coalitions, Susan Crawford was probably going to be the favorite no matter what.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
But I think Elon was a net negative on this, even including the $20 million that he put in and the $2 million bribes that he gave to random twinks, college Republican twinks yesterday. I think even in spite of that, I think he was a net negative.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
So I think that is important going to the midterms because Elon is not going to disappear. It's not as if I was on with John Hallman earlier and John said, I think rightly, I don't object to this observation, but he's saying that the Republicans in the House who are up in tough races and swing districts are hoping that a rebuke of Elon will get them to chill out and go away. That ain't happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Same. The thing that I'm worried about, which I get, because we're seeing this from DHS right now, is putting out the fact that this, that Gabriel Garcia was part of a human trafficking ring. I've said this about every person I've brought up. I don't know. I don't know because they didn't get due process. So I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Maybe the makeup artist was like smuggling in fentanyl and their little, you know, Mac, you know, powder cases. I don't fucking know. I don't think so. It doesn't seem like it to me, but we could find out. So I think that there is a good reason.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
for Democrats who are politicians who have a different role than me as a fucking blabber to maybe not lean all the way on a specific case because you don't want to be the guy that's like, oh, turns out you were defending a human trafficker. We can fill that void, the commentariat and the advocacy groups and outside groups, and you can speak to the broad...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
element of people are not for disappearing people off the street without a due process. That is what Rogan said. That is what the polls actually say. And I think that folks can go out and do that. And so good on Glenn Ivey for doing it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Yeah. And that we're not wrongly sending people to a fucking concentration camp in El Salvador. All right. I told you a little less thing, but we have a bonus piece of audio. I want to leave people on a happy note. Only people on a happy note. How often have I left people on a happy note? Katie, have I left people on a happy note one time since November? I can't recall. Maybe I have.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Sometimes I. I'm sure you have. Have I? Probably some. Maybe a shot at Freud. I've left people certainly on a laughter, a note of laughter. But pure joy? I don't think so. Do you still have that in your life? I do. I'm a father. My child doesn't have lice or ticks. So, you know, I get to give her a good night hug tonight. I've got pure joy. I'm going to go to Coachella in a couple weeks.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
That'll give me joy. I've got joy in my life. You know who else has joy in her life? Susan Crawford. Let's listen to her.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
And there it is. She beat Elon. That's good. She affected Western civilization itself. Western civilization is saved. Thanks to Susan Crawford. Good haircut, too. The whole thing. It's a good vibe. There's so many Wisconsin haircuts in this video. People, you've got to check it out on YouTube. The audio listeners, these are happy cheeseheads. Sam Stein, thanks for staying up late with me, brother.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
What a pleasure. What a pleasure. Everybody else, happy Liberation Day. We'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bullard Podcast. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Yeah. I agree with that. So, Elon being toxic, I think, is an important takeaway from the race. Another important takeaway, as Elon mentioned in his speech, so there's one thing he got right, is I do think we'll see. Like, Wisconsin has a really terrible gerrymander. Having a 4-3 Democratic Supreme Court might make a difference in that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
It might make a difference as far as the House of Representatives is concerned. I frankly don't think the House of Representatives will probably be that close in the next midterm, but that's meaningful in the micro.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Yeah, exactly. So I think that's meaningful in the micro. A turnout is pretty good. It was not quite as good. It doesn't seem yet. I mean, it's like we haven't obviously counted all the votes yet, but it doesn't look like it's pro to say what's kind of like, which was the big post row Supreme Court race there. But like, Pretty good turnout from the Democrats there. And then we'll get to Florida.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
So we're doing a late night taping tonight. So buckle up, everybody. We're punchy. All right, listener. You might think that, you know, the Wisconsin Supreme Court race, is that really worth it? Is that really a late night taping thing? Is that something I should care about? Let me tell you, if you have any doubts, I want to play for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
And so I think that is also encouraging. And I think those are all – and it happened in obviously a state that's going to be very important in the future. And I think this also affirms something that we've been talking about a long time around here, which is like that these coalitions have totally flipped. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
And the old Obama era situation where Democrats did better in midterms and in special elections, or excuse me, where Republicans did better in midterms and special elections and Democrats did better in general elections. Like that is totally flipped. And there's this hilarious kind of irony, kind of, it might not be funny for some people, but Wisconsin also passed a voter ID tonight.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
I really don't think people have internalized. I think it's a very small minority of people that internalize the fact that voter ID, whether or not you think it's a good policy, probably helps Democrats now. It used to help Republicans, and I think it probably helps Democrats now. It's much closer to a wash now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
All right, there's some specials in Florida that Republicans won, but there's also some maybe green shoots for Democrats. In Florida, one, your favorite candidate, Gaye Vallemont. She lost by 15 to Jimmy Petronas. She ran against Matt Gaetz in that district, and she lost that by 32. This is like the Florida Panhandle. This is the Redneck Riviera, Floribama.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
It's pretty red. And, you know, somebody named Gay. If only she was named Gay Hussein Voldemort, then we would really be in business.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
We respect you, gay. It's great. I'm happy for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
What's the long version of the female gay? Gaylord is the male version. Gayatress? Gayatress? I don't believe it's Gayatris.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
One of the world's richest men discussing the Supreme Court race just the other day.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Escambia County, Pensacola, 22% more Dem. The surrounding ones also about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Gaylene, which makes sense for the plan handle. That it'd be Gaylene. She leans gay. Lesbian Voldemort. Okay, over in Florida 6, in a similar demographic over in Daytona Beach, Mike Waltz won that district by 33 in election 24. Randy Fine, who's a fucking piece of work, he's a Republican. He won by 14 over Josh Weil, who's a math teacher. So neither of those reasons end up being that close.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
15-point loss for Gay, 14-point loss for Josh Weil. But that does not bode well and explains why at least Stefanik got pulled out.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
And I mean, in Wisconsin, obviously, you have more of a kind of a diverse demographic. You actually have like white working class areas, black areas and Milwaukee college towns, you know, than you do in kind of these red districts in Florida. Right. And again, this is still coming in right now. But as of now, it's like 23 of 25 districts.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Crawford did better or counties rather Crawford did better than Kamala, you know, so almost across the board. And then it was totally across the board in Florida. You know, the thing that jumps out to me, especially elections because of this of these coalitions we're talking about where.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
the more complicated it is to vote, you know, and the harder it is to get people to turn out to vote, the better it's going to be for Democrats, at least in the short term. So I think specials are even a little bit better than midterms will be for them.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Just, just based on coalitions, obviously a bunch of stuff could happen between now and if we're in a recession between and next November, you know, obviously there are other elements at play here, but I just look at this and it's like, okay, you know, and if they're going to run 19 points better in these districts and, You know, that brings in a lot of red areas into play.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
And I do think that, like, this is my number one message the Democrats call me, is I'm like, they should look at these, you know, R plus 10, 12, 13, 14 districts and try to get some surprise. I think that there could be some surprise wins. Or at least make Elon spend a few bucks. Make Elon spend money. Get people running.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
This is why we did the run for something episode. It is less dire in these areas than I think the conventional wisdom is. I think Democrats have some huge structural problems, particularly in the Senate and these red states, but in local elections up through Congress, congressional elections, I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Bulwark After Dark tonight. I am here with the Bulwark's Managing Editor, Sam Stein. We are taping right after the very professional call of the Wisconsin Supreme Court race made by the Decision Desk HQ, Dave Wasserman and others. And I got an early flight tomorrow and Sam's kid has a tick in his or her head. His. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
And then three is that- Thermostatic polarization, Sam.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
I was working in Iowa then, so I was thinking of Dave Loebsack. It's like this random super left professor at Iowa ends up beating Leach, who had been there forever, who had been a Republican and had been there forever. So you win surprising places. That race didn't even have any ads in it, and this guy wins.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Yeah, one last thing, and I've been meaning to mention this because it's relevant. As a local perspective for Louisiana, people wouldn't have noticed this. Civilization did not rest on these four amendments that we voted on here in Louisiana last week in the special election. But the Republican governor, Jeff Landry, was pushing these kind of changes to the Constitution.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
They're on taxation and legal issues. And they're kind of arcane, except for the tax element. The rest of them were pretty arcane. But there was a big push from Democrats and activist groups here in Louisiana that was just like, vote no on them all, y'all. And there was a little ad campaign around it, just vote no, no to Jeff Landry, no to what he wants, F him, basically. It was the campaign.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
There wasn't even a ton of education on what the actual ballots were. It was just like, say no to this, resist it. And they got slaughtered. His ballot initiatives got slaughtered here, which in Louisiana. Well, it's a catchy phrase. It is a catchy phrase.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
All y'all, yeah. Anyway, I think that there are obviously positive signs there, even here in deep red America.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Well, it would have been kind of like the podcast is every other day. Yeah. So it's not that hard to imagine.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
It wouldn't have been that hard to imagine. It's a fair point, though. You shouldn't over-interpret. But at this point, there's so many trends to this direction that it's like, okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Yeah, we're going to read into it. All right. What else are we going to fucking do? We're going to talk about Cory Booker. Let's talk about Cory. Cory Booker. Boy, he hit the record for filibuster, record-long filibuster. I didn't think he could do it just kind of bladder-wise.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
You know, I've got that dog inside of me, Sam. So probably a lot.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic
Probably a lot. I kind of feel like I'm a little made of sterner stuff than Corey. I was wrong. Corey surprised me. What was the final number? 25 plus. 25 hours plus. Record filibuster. I have some thoughts on it, but let's play a couple of clips. Let's first play him talking about kind of the moral moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Yes, he's saying they're retarded. He said they were retarded. He agreed with Autism Capital, who tweeted that American Americans are too retarded to do these jobs. Elon said, spot on. So that's what Elon thinks. And so I think that he would argue that he isn't looking for cheap labor. It's just that he can't find the Americans that he needs to do the job. And so he's a globalist.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
85,000 a year.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
JBL's going full horseshoe. He's full horseshoe on this one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
The only actual news we have since yesterday's pod is Trump has endorsed Mike Johnson for Speaker, presumably averting the first hurdle there of the pre-presidency. He wrote in a bleat, the American people need immediate relief from all the destructive policies of the last administration. Speaker Mike Johnson is a good, hardworking, religious man. Interesting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Within the MAGA rubric, within the America First worldview, to the extent that it exists, JBL's point and Laura Loomer are absolutely right. We're going to now have two clips of people saying Laura Loomer is absolutely right, that people can just play on X for us to try to own us. But within the America First rubric, there's really no argument for the Elon position here. There just isn't.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
And now, I'm not America first. I'm a globalist cuck. And so I think that we should probably have 500,000 H1B visas a year. We should let a thousand flowers bloom and bring more people into the country. And some of those very smart people that we bring in from around the world will create some other widget, which will create jobs for other people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
There is a free market Friedman view of all this, which I share. And so I technically would be on the side of capital, I guess, in this argument. But within the confines of their argument, I don't even understand the point. Elon is fighting a battle that is totally losing unless...
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
It is just such that the magas have traded out one class of capitalists that love unfettered immigration for a different class of capitalists that love unfettered immigration, and that Donald Trump just likes the attention of famous rich people, and now they're fucked and stuck with it, which I think is pretty possible.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Because he mentioned the ones that he used.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
He'll do the right thing and we'll continue to win. Mike has my complete and total endorsement. All caps MAGA. So there was some pushback on this. Steve Bannon and the folks at America Fest where I was at last week were booing. booing Johnson. Breitbart was trying to defenestrate him. There were some other people inside the caucus, like maybe 12, that said they wanted to get rid of him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Part of the other tension, though, between the Loomer MAGA and the Musk MAGA is that the good immigrants are different.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
And the good immigrants are just the white immigrants in the nativist world. And in the Musk vision, the good immigrants are the smart immigrants or whatever, like the immigrants that are good at STEM that we're getting. They're coming here largely, largely from Asia.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
But Trump is trying to stop the nonsense early. Sarah, I want to start with you because I think you're the hardest hit by this result. If people on our YouTube feed, we had an amazing video where everybody gave their 2025 predictions. We have some really smart colleagues. Some of the predictions really tickled me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Yeah, right. I think your point, Sarah, this is an issue that now there's tension within both coalitions on. Right. To your point, I think both sides now are kind of split on this in some ways. It's just the Republicans have to govern. So I think it will be more acute on their side for the next four years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
The must thing, one of the eye opening things in my convo with Bannon was just that he even mentioned like, I mean, this guy gave a quarter billion. I don't like him, but like he made it happen. You know what I mean? And and I think that if Musk was you just kind of go back through the history of Trump's person of the moment that he likes, like the mooch or whatever, like the mooch was a donor.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Right. Trump is a little bit stuck with Musk more than he's been with anybody else because of the amount of money that Musk has put in. And Musk is kind of his muscle now in threatening these senators that I'll go put in another 250 million in your Senate primaries. And Musk has his own audience of the Twitter weirdos that aren't necessarily OG MAGA, right? Musk has all of these
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
levers that give him way more power than anybody else that's been in the Trump orbit since he came on the stage.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
But your prediction, Sarah, was that there would be three Republican speakers in 2025. which is still in play, but I think was hurt a little bit by Mike Johnson surviving here through the first week of January.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Isn't the bigger vulnerability that Trump goes, I've learned that Elon is in bed with the Chinese and we just can't do this anymore with him. Yeah. Right. And like, we've got to cut him out. Like, it's just like, he's been undermining us with China and we've got to be tough on China. Like that seems to be a bigger vulnerability.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Okay. Sarah, do you have one more?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Here's the thing. I kind of agree with you, JVL, but I hate to give them this out because they're going to use it. To your point, they know. The MAGA world knows. So during my conversation with Bannon, I'm just pulling out the transcript right now. He's talking about how he's trolling.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I forget what word he uses, like super mega trolling, mad, you know, troll maxing about this Trump third term thing and how the media plays into it. MSNBC does a view on it. And so there is something to that. I don't want to play it straight because they're not playing it straight.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
That said, though, the serious part that is underneath it is that they recognize that as soon as he's considered a lame duck, the house of cards really could crumble. And here's what Bannon wrote. He said, like they said about Louis XIV, after me, the deluge. there's nobody that can replace Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
He's a unifying figure and also a figure as a deliverer of blunt force trauma that only he can do to the established order. I'd love the opportunity to have Trump back. Like that's just flat. Like it is just a straight recognition that part of this is a game because they know that after Trump is mega question marks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I mean, the obvious thing is that if Trump doesn't run, he's going to try to, I have to tell you the saddest Kendall from succession moment at turning point USA that hit the cutting room floor on my material for that. I reported. So Bannon does the Trump 2028 stick on stage and the crowd cheers. Don jr. Is up after Bannon. And Don Jr.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
comes out on stage looking fully like Kendall for Succession in a suit and sneakers and like super awkward, puffed up face. And like his first line is, thanks for the endorsement there, Steve. And the crowd is just like silent. And then he's like, just joking, just joking. And then he starts chuckling to himself. And everybody's like... It didn't even occur to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
People didn't even... When Steve was in Don Jr. 's head, he was like, Trump 2028, he's talking about me. I can make a joke about that. The crowd didn't even get the joke because they're not even contemplating that Don Jr. could have been the person that he was referencing. It was a pretty funny Veep-ish successionist moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Many too many years ahead to discuss that question. So just let it hang over the ether. We're here. We're together. We're pals. We're not going to be able to, you know, kiss at this clock striking midnight tonight here. And so I want to do now close with our 2025 personal and professional New Year's resolutions. I've prepped you. So if you don't have any, it's your fault.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
JVL, I would like for you to start.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Can we just talk about why you don't do personal ones first? Because you're growing all year long or because you don't want to grow?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
This is why I'm a good host. I've grown as a host. Doesn't matter. To ask that follow-up question there to get JVL to reveal that he finds them insipid or toxic was really inspired. I do wonder, but do you do a Lenten resolution? Why is that different? As a good Catholic, you must do a Lenten resolution.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Do you not need penance? In the new year as well? You just need penance once a year?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Let me push back on the Panama Canal, on both actually, and talk this out. Is the Panama Canal bullshit not going to impact the actions of the leaders of Panama? No. I agree. It's crazy. Having an insane president making wild threats at other countries, though, will impact the way other countries act. So is it nothing or is it bait or is it an actual geopolitical threat?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
news item that should be covered?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I wanted to hear what Sarah thinks about your resolution.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
You can imagine him saying Cuba should be- Yeah, well, which part is his game and which part of his real aim is-
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Yeah. You haven't won me over, but I knew what your resolution was going to be since you kind of were to try it about it already. And mine is related. And so I'm going second to then Sarah can close us. You can see where my kind of agreement and disagreement might be. My work resolution is actually related to my personal resolution, which is I'm only going to care about what I care about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
And that is like maybe a little more solipsistic than yours about how to think about what what to cover and what to talk about. But I guess my point to you in pushing back gently on the Panama thing was. I don't know what is actually going to matter. I don't. You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
JVL, what do you think, Mike Johnson, survivor?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I think that you having the North Star is correct, right, of we should only focus on things that actually impact people and have an actual effect on people's lives, and we should try to focus on that more and not focus on the ephemera.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
But I think that there have been a lot of times in Trump's world where, like, sometimes he bleats random shit, and then the people around him, like, make it happen, right? You know what I mean? Like, things come into fruition just because it came out of his pie hole, you know? And other times, things that you would think that he was really focused on fizzled, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
And so, like, to me, as I was just thinking about this on the slopes last week, I was like, I think the best guiding force for me, and it's related to the 1990s term of work-life balance, is like... There are certain things I know I care about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
In the home life, I care about my family and I should not be paying attention to whatever I'm doing with my child because I'm focused on some stupid shit that Donald Trump is saying that I don't really care about or some stupid fight between Vivek and whatever. I should at least try. Again, this is all aspirational. I should at least try to just care about the things that I care about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I think there's going to be a lot of things that he does that I do care about. Right. And that make me very mad or upset or laughter. Laughter is a form of caring lap pointing and laughing is also OK. You know, and there will be some things that are maybe serious that I just I can't be made to care about because I only have so much room in my in my heart or in my in my gut.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
And so that is, I think, how I'm going to try to try to deal with it. And I think that is something that's obviously particularly relevant for us, deciding what we're going to write and talk about. But I think it's also probably relevant to listeners.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
The number of people over the last two weeks who have been like, ooh, I had to take a week off, or ooh, I had to do this, or I had to do that, or I wanted to take a week off, but then I just had to listen to what you had to say. My response has always been awesome, like great. You should care about what you care about. I'm not saying you should do the Benedict option and move into the woods.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
But you should find things that you care about in your community and focus on the things that you find nutritious. Hopefully, we will be providing a good amount of that. If sometimes it feels unnutritious for a week, that's fine. It's going to be a long ass four years. And so that's kind of my mindset, which is, I guess, a little bit different than what you're saying, but not really.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
It's directionally the same. I'm just processing it a little different.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
We accidentally went to Spanish Mass Christmas in Vail. We forgot. We didn't look that closely at the schedule. I'm trying to say this in an appropriate manner. The types of people that go to Spanish Mass in a ski town are working class people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
And I wasn't checking anybody's papers, but it was a very working class audience with a couple of turistas like us who didn't check the schedule that closely. And it was hard for me to not... think about the other side of the coin of what you're talking about. This is something that I care about. I was just looking around and I was being like, I cannot let Christmas Mass be about Donald Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
That is not healthy. But it was hard to not just look around and be like, I don't think that the plans are such that will be very peaceful for communities such as this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Sarah, do you have any final thoughts for you? Give us your, uh, 2025 resolution.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Four years and a month.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I think I might take the under, but I do think that the Trump lead is kind of like a covenant eyes on Johnson. It was like an endorsement, but it's also and I'm watching you. You know, we're going to win. We need to win. And I'm going to be monitoring, you know, your private Internet searches.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
This has been a good show, long show. Poor Jason is going to be editing this all the way through his New Year's party. So I want to get to Sarah's 2025 resolution. And I do just want to say one thing because we're cross-talking a little bit. I'm actually more sympathetic to the JBL point of view on a lot of the other areas in immigration. for the simple reason that fear is a consequence.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Like even not doing the mass deportations, but freaking people out. This is where my inner lib comes in. Sometimes feelings do matter, not just facts. Okay, Sarah, I want your 2025 resolution to close this out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
People are going to think that I set you up for this. Okay, I'm getting uncomfortable with the compliments. No, no, no.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I do wonder, like, you know, as far as the debt ceiling thing, Bill and I talked about this a bit yesterday. And it does seem kind of similar to the way that Elon intervened in the year end election. budget battle.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I was talking to my in-house parliamentarian, my husband yesterday, and it's like the types of things that they'd have to, like, they have to get committees up, like the types of things that they'd have to do to actually extend this or eliminate the debt limit before the inauguration seems very implausible. And that this is really just more of a pressure.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Hold on, though. You're the boss, though. You say that there's going to be no calibration, but I was going to have a lawyer come on at the end of every podcast and correct any comments that I made that might be somewhat slanderous towards a MAGA person. That was going to be a new segment I was adding in 2025. Like Tony Reale, like stat boy at the end of PTI. Like Tony Reale at the end of PTI.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I was going to have a lawyer come in at the end and be like, Tim didn't really say that he was on ketamine. He was just saying that he may or may not use ketamine from time to time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I have an earnest connection between our resolutions, which is a lot of people go and check up subscribers by pretending to care about things they don't care about. There is no shortage of media out there of people pretending to be offended about shit that they aren't really offended about because they know that's going to do numbers. My one self-pat is I don't really think that we do that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I think that to your point, the growth and expansion has been from people that find
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
the stuff that we're doing actually genuine and substantive and so uh in order to keep being able to do that we need your help to go out and tell people about us because we don't get quite as many you know what i mean you don't uh it is easier to go out there and be like i'm really fucking pissed about this thing that is in the news in a given moment and sometimes there are many times there are things in the news in a given moment that i'm really fucking pissed about and that does help
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
but doing it all day every day is not something that we're going to be doing. And so we need your help to, to help us grow. So JVL, do you have any other final thoughts or wishes for 2025 darkness?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
It's a question of whether this is a pressure game that Trump is putting on Johnson or, you know, whether he's just he just doesn't know anything and just like, let's just get rid of it now. Why not? I'm a dictator. I'm a quasi dictator.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
All right. Well, let's go ahead and do it, everybody. It's 2025. Maybe by the time you're listening to it or this or later tonight. So take it easy this evening with your friends. On Thursday, we will begin again on this podcast. We'll see you all then. Thanks to Sarah and JBL. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is New Year's Eve, so I'm here with my besties. It's Sarah Longwell, publisher of The Bulwark and JVL, editor of The Bulwark, author of the Triad newsletter. It's an underrated newsletter. I'm not sure if you've heard of it. Sarah reads it from time to time. How are you doing, guys? How's your holiday been?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brout.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Yeah, there might only be eight deficit hawk true believers in the house. Frankly, there might only be two. It might only be Tom Massey and Chip Roy. I don't know. They might have a couple other buddies there, but they don't have room for much more than two to give away. And I do think that eliminating the debt limit might just be the one thing that could push them a little bit too far.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
There might just be two or three crazy true believers that I think will oppose that gambit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
JV, what do you think?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I'm sorry, there are a lot of Keynesians and Pikettis out there that would see this as a big win. That's like, money isn't real. We could just now spend forever. They won't be able to use this against us next time we get in power if we ever win again. That's the mindset.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
The Wall Street Journal editorial board, give them credit for being the grownups in the room. Right. Willing to do the job, make sure that the market's kept running. No, I don't think so. I want to go a little bit deeper. We've been texting. We don't talk that much. We've been texting a little bit about the MAGA versus Doge, the Nationalists versus the Tech Bros, however we want to...
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
define this fight. And I guess JVL, shockingly, on text is siding with Steve Bannon. So I want to get to that in a second. But Sarah, I'm just interested in your top line thoughts, kind of watching this fight from your from your winter cottage.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I've missed you guys.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Yeah. Shriram Krishnan is his name. He's an AI advisor. I actually, like you was trying to stay off. So it was unclear to me who, who fired the first shot in this battle. I don't know what the Lexington and Concord was of Shriram Krishnan, but, um, He was the person that set this off. And it's not just that he's it is that he's Indian, but it also he has been a big advocate for these H-1B visas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
But but the anti-Indian sentiment was was certainly a big part of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Have you not been talking to the people at the lesbian cottage that you're in?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
It was piquing JBL's interest, I notice. It was piquing JBL's interest, a critique of the American culture and the American worker from Vivek. All of a sudden, JBL's like, ooh, I might be Doge-curious.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
In the woods?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
The anti-Indian rhetoric. I think we can all stipulate. Before I play this next clip, I just want to all stipulate very clearly. There is anti-Indian racism among MAGA. It is not good. We are disgusted by it. These people are gross. Everyone should be aware of it. We can stipulate this. The people that are perpetrating this are bad people that have dark souls and should go to confession. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Okay. One such person, though, Laura Loomer... was making some interesting points on Steve Bannon's podcast recently, and I'd like to listen to it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
JBL is going full Lumer Bannon, I think, right now. I could have written that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Is it Piketty or Piketty?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I'm sure the super libs that listen will let us know in the comments.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I had the same thing, Sarah. We have our kids at the same age. Like the fact that they're going to remember this next administration was like actually the saddest thing for me on election night. JVL has already dealt with us. He has grown children. So, you know, they've already had their night, their childish naivete dashed, you know, by the world. But it's tough. Okay, much to discuss.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
And listeners to our show get 15% off their first purchase when using the code THEBULLWORK at checkout. That's an additional 15% off at fastgrowingtrees.com using code THEBULLWORK at checkout. Fastgrowingtrees.com, code THEBULLWORK. Now is the perfect time to plant. So use THEBULLWORK to save today. Offer is valid for a limited time. Terms and conditions may apply. All right, we are back.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
He's a senior fellow at the Trinity Forum. He served in the Reagan, Bush and Bush administrations. He's a contributing writer at the New York Times and the Atlantic. His latest piece for the Atlantic is Trump's Appetite for Revenge is Insatiable. It's Pete Wehner. Welcome back to the Pop, Pete. How are you doing? I'm doing great.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Well, I just talked to your boss, the big boss of the Atlantic, Jeff Goldberg, about his unbelievable scoop. I'm just kind of wondering what your reaction was as you were seeing that come across the Transom yesterday.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Ja, sprich über deine Erfahrung. Ich vermute, du warst Redakteur bei der White House und andere Rollen. Ich vermute, du hattest eine Sicherheitserklärung, und du hattest Zugang zu sensiblen Informationen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Für die Leute, denen das nicht ihre Welt ist, die uns hören, sprich über das, wie der Prozess normalerweise war, wenn du mit dem nationalen Sicherheitsteam gearbeitet hattest, auf einer Rede, die potenziell sensiblen Informationen hatte, oder, ich weiß nicht, welches andere Beispiel, wo du Zugang zu klassifizierten Informationen hattest.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Ich meine, es ist unvergesslich. Ich denke, das ist der Grund, warum Jeff nicht glaubte, dass es wahr war. Bis all die Bomben fallen. Er sagte, das kann nicht sein. Ich habe angefangen, zu denken, dass es wahr war, als die Emojis angefangen haben. Er sagte, ich glaube nicht, dass die Russen die Muskelpräger-Emoji machen würden. Es ist fast zu offensichtlich, was zu tun ist.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
It just, it merits covering, which is, you know, the 2016 campaign was so focused on OPSEC, if you will, email security, and CNN put together a little package of the people who were on this signal chain talking about Hillary Clinton. I want to play that for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
They didn't prosecute, they didn't go after these folks. I forgot, Joe Biden got thrown in there too. But again, the whole point of the Clinton scandal was that ostensibly because she had this private server, people, you know, foreign governments could have easier access to sensitive information. The second layer of the scandal was that it protected her from FOIA, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
That people couldn't, you know, that government records were removed, maybe that shouldn't have been. Both of those things are true in spades here. And this is a commercial app. We're discussing a bombing. And I didn't get into this with Jeff, but on the signal chain, it says the messages are set to disappear. So these are not messages that are being preserved. So anyway, talk about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Yeah, that takes us... Well, to your article about revenge and just their appetite for revenge. And it's interesting, you get through a lot of the details of the people that Trump is going after. I want to talk about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
But the biggest picture related to what you just said, you quote Tocqueville, who says, if citizens in a democracy saw that unethical and corrupt behavior led to riches and power, this would not only normalize such behavior, it would validate and valorize it. And I do think that we are seeing that broadly, but particularly in this
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
in dem Kontext, in dem man die Regierung benutzen kann, um auf seine Feinde zu kommen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Es ist sogar ein bisschen dramatischer als das Beispiel der Homeschooler in Miami, weil ich glaube, dass die meisten Homeschooler an der Universität Miami wissen, dass sie schlecht tun, aber sie sind einfach nur aufgeregt. Es ist seltsam. Trump hat diese Leute tatsächlich überzeugt, dass Aktivität und Weisheit tatsächlich gut sind. Genau. Dass das Böse zu tun, das Richtige zu tun ist.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Das ist, wie man Macht erzielt. Das ist, wie man seine Objekte verbessert. Und dass die Demokraten, wie diese Schulmaschinen, die ihre Finger an dich wagen wollen, wenn du das Schlimme tust, sie sind das Schlimme, eigentlich.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Du hast den Lincoln-Lyceum-Gespräch-Pull-Quote in deinem Kopf?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Es ist interessant, dass du das sagst. Ich meine, auf irgendeinem Niveau, guck, es gab immer immer perniciouse Elemente des christlichen Rechts.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Es gab einige schlechte Akteure, du weißt, im Laufe der Zeit, aber auch die Art und Weise, die es jetzt hat, und die allverbrauchte Art und Weise, die es ist, dass du für diese Trumps-Weise bist, nicht nur mit ihnen zusammengehst, sondern sie aktiv akzeptierst, um christlich in gutem Zustand zu sein, oder was auch immer. Es stört mich, Kinzinger, den du erwähnt hast,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
You know, Adam Kinzinger sometimes submits to his own vices, which is, quote, tweeting the trolls, the random people on the internet that come after him, which, you know, maybe you shouldn't do. I also submit to that from time to time. But this woman, who I don't know, tweeted, you love to see it with a picture of this California couple that was deported after living in the US for 35 years.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
They lived here 35 years. And Kinzinger retweets this with, Christ is king in bio. Wow. Sie ist wie diese Frau, die die Gesichter dieser Leute schüttelt, die nichts falsch gemacht haben. Sie war hier seit 35 Jahren, hat eine Familie in Amerika. Sie wird jetzt verabschiedet. Sie schüttelt ihre Gesichter. Sie schüttelt sie, kritisiert sie. Und Adam ist so, das ist Christus.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Das ist, was Christus wollen würde. Aber die Frau ist mehr repräsentativ des Evangelischen und des christlichen Rechtes als Adam.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Ja, ich wollte es nur sagen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
I want to get into some of the specifics you talked about with this revenge and what is alarming you the most. You frame it up. Unfortunately, I have way too much of my brain space is used on things that Donald Trump has said and done. I wish I could remove some of that and replace it with some nutritious information in my brain. But even I had forgotten this one.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
In a 1992 interview with Charlie Rose, Trump was asked if he had any regrets. Among them he said, I would have wiped the floor with the guys who weren't loyal, which I will do now. I love getting even with people. What a strange life regret. But I think that that is a telling way to frame up your article, because that is really what he's doing now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Ja, du hast durch all die verschiedenen Wege gelistet, wie er versucht, Menschen zu retten. Die Gerätefirmen sind der wichtigste Beispiel dieser Woche, aber es gibt viele andere Beispiele. Was ist... the most alarming to you as you kind of project out what we're looking into for the next three plus years?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Untertitelung. BR 2018 Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020 Untertitelung des MDR Untertitelung.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Ich dachte, das war auch interessant. Trump versteht das nicht. Er sagt das in einer Schale mit 18 Leuten und dem Editor von The Atlantic.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Untertitelung. BR 2018
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020 Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020 Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Untertitelung. BR 2018
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got an Atlantic double bill today. First up, the head boss, editor-in-chief of The Atlantic, host of Washington Week on PBS, and author of The Biggest Story in quite a while. The Trump team accidentally texted me its war plans. It's Jeffrey Goldberg. How are you doing, Jeff?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Vielen Dank.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Auf der Immigrationsseite, das ist ein weiteres Beispiel auf dem Thema, was wir diskutiert haben, aber es ist nicht nur die Deportationen, es ist auch die Leidenschaft, die Schmerzen. Sie haben diese Snuff-Videos veröffentlicht, du kannst den Geräusch der Chains hören, Klink-Ink, und sie teilen diese Videos leidenschaftlich.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
of the immigrants that are being sent to San Salvador and then having their heads shaved. They're putting all this out like it's a Michael Bay movie trailer, where they're bragging about the treatment of these people. And some of them are probably criminals that deserve poor treatment, but we don't know that. They haven't provided any evidence of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
What do you make of not just the policy shift from San Quote-unquote compassionate conservatism on immigration, but just the manner in which they've dehumanized immigrants.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
So, I hate to then lower this to kind of rank politics, but I do wonder your thought on this. Is there any potential way, do you think, for Democrats to make inroads into Christian communities based on this? I think about this from the standpoint of, look, obviously there are going to be some people that have just fully embraced the MAGA ethic and that are going to be unreachable.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
But you think about what Trump has been doing with working class black voters, for example. He didn't win that group, but you tried hard, you make a message to them, you peel off a certain group of people. Do you think there's anything there that potentially Democrats could make this case to faithful Christians that's just like... Das ist einfach großartig.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Die Absentität von dem, was sie tun, ist so extrem, dass sie sie vielleicht zurückbekommen könnten. Oder glaubst du, dass die demokratische Marke so toxisch ist, dass das wahrscheinlich wünschwürdig ist? Toxisch in dieser Gemeinschaft zumindest.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Ich möchte mit einem noch schweren Thema beenden, gerade weil es heute so leicht ist. Du hast ein Interview für die Times gemacht, das sehr bewegend war. Ich wollte das für die Leute bemerken. Das war mit Niklas Walderstorff. Ich war Professor für Philosophische Theologie bei Yale. Er hat ein Buch über den Lament für seinen Sohn geschrieben, der 25 war und in einem Klappschmerz gestorben ist.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Und natürlich haben wir einige Zuhörer, die das durchgemacht haben. Ich habe David Fromm gehört und wir haben darüber gesprochen. Ich frage mich, ob es irgendwelche Teile dieser Gespräche gab, die dich beeindruckt haben, die dir irgendwelche Wissensmöglichkeiten für Menschen, die mit Griechen beschäftigt haben, gebraucht haben.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Peter, danke, wie immer. Ich liebe es, mit dir zu sprechen. Ich freue mich, dass du auf dem Podcast kommst. Nicht der beste Monat für das Land, aber wir schlagen auf. Wir versuchen, es zu verdienen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
We appreciate it, brother. Everybody else will be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulldog Podcast. We'll see you all then. Peace. The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Here is what the White House Press Secretary said just about an hour ago. Jeffrey Goldberg is well known for his sensationalist spin. Here are the facts about his latest story. No war plans were discussed. No classified material was sent to the thread.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
The White House Counsel's Office has provided guidance on a number of different platforms Trump's top officials can communicate on as safely and efficiently as possible. So what do you make of that? No classified material and no war plans, the White House says.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
I guess my first note here on the outline is, holy fuck. I want to know, just talk us through, you do this a little bit in the story, but where were you when the signal message from Mike Waltz, the National Security Advisor, came through and walked me through how you kind of processed what was happening as he invited the entire National Security Team onto the group text with you? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Also, ich meine, das ist klassifiziert.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Okay, that's all I'm going to say. So let's go to that National Security Lawyer question then. Because now the Secretary of Defense and the White House Press Secretary have said you're lying, have said there are no war plans there, have said there's no classified information. So the obvious question is, shouldn't you now demonstrate it? Shouldn't you publish the text? No, because they're wrong.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Wow. Well, you want to become my lawyer? I'm just, I'm throwing this out there, Jeff. I don't know. I mean, look, the White House Press Secretary an hour ago said you're lying.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
And I'm just kind of like, I'm sticking to my principles here. Understood. To this point, though, about the unauthorized release, the Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard, just a couple weeks ago posted this, that any unauthorized release of classified information is a violation of the law and will be treated as such. I mean, it seems like this was an unauthorized release, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
You're not a lawyer, but what do you make of that?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Usually, you know, you have a skiff, you have devices that you're supposed to use this stuff on. I mean, even if you're using something where you could plausibly invite Jeff Goldberg, it seems like an unauthorized leak.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Ich möchte nur auf eine Weise aufmerksam machen, weil ich das in einer anderen Interview gesehen habe. Du hast gesagt, was, wenn sie einen Houthi auf den Weg bringen? Und auf irgendeinem Niveau klingt das verrückt, bis du es so denkst. Ich meine, die Sekretärin der Verteidigung hat dich als einen bescheidenen und hochdiskreditierten Journalisten genannt. Die Präsidenten haben dich gegriffen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Und auf irgendeinem Niveau haben sie einen Adversarier auf unseren Angriff gelegt. Ich meine, sie nennen dich den Feind der Menschen. Du bist ein Adversarier.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Well, they're liars, Jeff. And they've had a lot of success lying. And so that's why they're lying, I think. I'm just gonna... All right, I accept your expert judgment. All right, so here's the last thing I'm just dying to know, just on a human level. So you're sitting there in the Safeway. You want to see if there's bombing that is actually real.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Had you told other people, like, had you told your wife, like, are you carrying this alone?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Ja, ich meine, ich glaube, die Leute sagen, ich glaube, es ist Jameson Greer, der US-Trader ist, ist JG. Aber dann wiederum, warum ist Mike Waltz, wie sind Sie auf der initialen Beziehung, JG, MW? Sie wissen, das sind Fragen für Mike Waltz. Okay, wir versuchen, ihn auf dem Pod zu bringen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
All right. Thank you so much, Jeff Goldberg, Editor-in-Chief of The Atlantic. What a week. What a two weeks for you, I guess. It was March 11th you were first put on there. I appreciate you coming on the pod this morning. Thank you. Thanks for having me. All right. Up next, Pete Wehner.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Hey y'all, I told you how excited I was about our newest sponsor, fastgrowingtrees.com and I was so excited to get our fastgrowing tree, an olive tree that my daughter had chose. I was talking about how, you know, to give us a little summer project, pick the olives and, you know, can them and... Du musst alles tun, um einen Oliven zu machen. Ich habe noch nie einen Oliven gemacht. Ich lerne.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1007: Jeffrey Goldberg and Peter Wehner: What's Going on with Our National Security?
Ich lerne zusammen mit meiner Tochter. Ich habe von euch gelernt, dass der Sommer nicht der Zeit ist, um Oliven zu fressen. Ich weiß nicht. Vielleicht wird es ein Projekt für den Sommer. Aber du kannst auch neue Flora entwickeln und ein paar Dinge über den natürlichen Welt lernen. Vielen Dank. Up to half off select plants and other deals.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Well, I'll say this to Eagle Ed Martin, because they've obviously got nothing else to do as the U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C., prosecuting criminals, prosecuting corruption, prosecuting terrorism. He doesn't have to worry. None of that is important. So he's been focused on the important things. So if he wants...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
to stand vigilant against entities that refuse to put America first, I welcome it. I am calling it the Gulf of Mexico, and it will be the Gulf of Mexico, and that is a fact, Ed Martin. It is the Gulf of Mexico, and I dare you to come for me. Bring it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Not only am I refusing to put America first, I was actively rooting for Canada in the hockey match. Yeah. Okay. So I'm putting Canada first, actually. So bring it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
With vigilance. Where is your vigilance? I don't know if this is the law and order they're going for. I guess so. In other news, there's a couple more things from Ed Martin's department. You'd mentioned the letter he sent to Robert Garcia, threatening him for a figure of speech used on CNN. In more tangible actions, Yesterday, we had news that Corey Mills is a Republican congressman from Florida.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
He's not one of our finest congressmen. Federal prosecutors Friday declined to charge Florida Congressman Corey Mills, who was accused of assaulting a woman in his D.C. apartment. The U.S. Attorney's Office turned down a request from police to seek an arrest warrant. Story goes on. I guess the woman had some injuries, some visual injuries, and her phone had broken.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
But then she also was, I guess, backing off of her charge. So there's that. Don't know exactly the details, but again, not a great sign when the D.C. police go to try to arrest a Republican congressman. And Ed Martin's office is like, nah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
All right. Well, here's the thing for me. That was so disorienting on my plane flights as I was coming in and out of dozing, listening to your dulcet tones. It's so strange to have to match the considered legal analysis that's happening on the panels with...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Thank you for shaking me from the sarcastic posture I sometimes fall back on to deal with the trauma that is our lives right now. But you're right. I mean, like the seriousness element of this, it may be even slightly worse than you're saying, right? Obviously, we could have no confidence that they're going to investigate it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
But as Fanone said at the conference, which I played on yesterday's pod, it's a feature, not a bug, right? Like they want Tario to be menacing, right? dissidents opponents to this administration like they want it to happen
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Well, this is traditional law and order. I mean, it's a niche example of something that people understand in their common lives, right? We hear a lot about how people are frustrated in places like San Francisco or in D.C. even. This happened to me in D.C. just this weekend. I forgot to bring deodorant to D.C. because I did not want to instinctify my fellow panelists at the principals first.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
what you're responding to, which are executive orders or decrees by unelected bureaucrats that seem to have been dictated by voice note while they were playing a first-person shooter game, like are written in marker or poop smeared. And then you guys are like, well, we have to look at the reference.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
I went into the CVS and it's locked, you know? Just whatever, like you're going to ask somebody to come and unlock it. And that's annoying. But it is a sign that like the public safety in the area is not such that people feel comfortable keeping the deodorant out from behind lock and key. This is analogous to that, right? Like it sucks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Like small nonprofit organizations that want to protect people's free speech rights should not feel like they need to have a security guard at the front of their office in a free country. And like that is a freedom that I think is not going to be available to people over the next couple of years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
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Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
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Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Spending months with private teachers is the old way of learning languages, and nothing screams tourists like holding a phone translation app up to your face all day. Been there. Babbel's tips and tools are inspired by the real-life stuff you actually need when communicating. With a focus on conversation, you'll be ready to talk wherever you go. Where am I going to go this year? I haven't decided.
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Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
After Mardi Gras, I'm turning to this. I am going to take a vacation from this podcast this year. I'm sorry, folks, but we're ending in England, but I want to go somewhere else first while we're over there, while we're across the pond. And so maybe I should align my babble work over the spring. Give me something to do away from dystopia with the place we choose.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Give me some suggestions in the comments. I don't know where I in Madrid, maybe, but we're open. We're Need proof that Babbel gets you talking? Studies from Yale, Michigan State, and other leading universities continue to prove Babbel works. One study found that using Babbel for 15 hours is equivalent to a full semester at college.
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Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
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Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Rules and restrictions apply. All right. So it's obviously related to the FBI. As you've mentioned a couple of times, you have friends who have been on the top floor of that building. The Bongino thing, because I can speak, I guess, for somebody that is a listener that doesn't have a ton of experience with the FBI.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
I never worked in the building, never been investigated by the FBI, never had an FBI client. I know what I read in the newspaper like anybody else.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
And so as I've been talking to some people who worked there over the past few days, it's actually the Bongino appointment that has seemed to be more alarming because, you know, the director is kind of a political role, you know, like whether you want it to be or not, it is a little bit of a figurehead role. Obviously there are big decisions that come through the director.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
So I, not to minimize that at all, but day to day, like the role that Bongino has been chosen for is the person that is like managing the bureau and managing the agents and managing these big decisions and it sounds like that has really shaken people up in a way that the patel thing didn't is that fair to say do you think
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
So Anna's like referencing precedent from the 1952 case. And it's like, is this I mean, that must be challenging for you to have to figure out. How do you take this stuff seriously? I guess is my opening question.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
He is not... This is a type of person that you literally need to watch one 20-second clip of his podcast. You can pick one at random, and I think you get it. He's about a centimeter deep. I mean, he is a meathead, and he's exactly what he looks like.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Yeah, look, it's extremely serious, and... We're just gonna have to wait and see how cash and Dan act. I mean, I think that any, that's pretty easy to judge these guys character. These are not the types of people that are going to rise to the moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
You know, you can listen to Dan by Gino's phone call with my former colleague, Mark Caputo from a couple of years ago, where he starts telling Mark to fuck himself. And Mark is laughing at him. And he's like, Is that a request? Is that an offer? And Dan gets madder and madder. And like, it's just, these are not the type of people that have the temperament for this job.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Like, it's just, it doesn't take a psychologist to determine that. What they actually do with their bad temperament, TBD.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
So one more on this, which is where I was going, is these invisible actions that we're not seeing. I guess I was wondering, the folks that you're talking to, what are the worries beyond the political? We'll see if Kash Patel and Dan Bongino try to arrest Adam Schiff or whatever. You know what I mean? We'll see what they do as far as politicized things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
But what about like the stuff that it might be getting missed, right? Like when you fire all of these high mid managers, right? And when there's all this disruption, like what are their legitimate worries about like actual business of the FBI, right? Like the real business of our public safety not getting done? Or is that stuff kind of just going to happen?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Like people are just going to do their jobs and try not to let Dan Bongino get in the way? Like how are people processing that side of it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
And that's so hard. You can't blame them. Like on the one hand you want, like, this is so hard. Like I wrote about this, I felt like this was complicated from political appointments in the first Trump term. And I was on the side always of people should not take these jobs and they should quit if they're political appointees in the first Trump term.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
There were other people like, you know, me and Steve Hayes went round and round on this where he was forced to stay. It gets way more complicated in this situation. Like, I feel horrible for somebody that's at the FBI. Like, there's part of me, it's like, I wish that person that you talked to would have stayed, I think. But I don't, but it's just, because this is what they want.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Well, from people who have a lot of job insecurity right now across federal government, there's been a lot of people for a president that was elected ostensibly on fixing the economy and on being a great businessman. Not seen a lot of that. Stock market's down. Prices are still up. A lot of people losing jobs or having job uncertainty.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Not a ton of people gaining job certainty under this administration, with one exception. Washington, D.C.-based employment attorneys. I was listening to the Lawfare podcast, and I was like, you are crushing right now. If you are a law firm and you represent wrongfully terminated employees, this is going to be the golden age for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
I don't know that there's a lot of Republicans in this work, so I don't know if that was intentional for the Trump administration, unintentional consequences, but...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
I mean, you've done hours on this over on Lawfare, but so just give us the basic summary of like the state of play as far as all of the lawsuits about people that have been terminated, particularly with regards to these probationary employees.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Anybody who had gotten a promotion at any level, anybody who is an entry level employee at any department except for a couple that had carve outs.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Yeah, this guy doesn't want to let us do prospective war crimes. Exactly. We got to get rid of him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Now, that seems expensive to me. I know that Doge is supposed to be the Department of Government efficiency, but doing thousands upon thousands of legal cases to determine whether forest rangers should be fired doesn't seem to be a particularly efficient use of resources to me, but
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
They're going to drain the swamp by moving deep state Justice Department lawyers from the government to Washington, D.C. law firms, and then they're going to pay them for not working. Which through the government lawyers. And to pay both the law firms that are suing the government and the lawyers individually. Exactly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Yeah, I kind of hated that. I kind of got sick of the buzzword sane washing because it just got overused and misused. But to your point, the legal briefs that you're analyzing when Musk is like, you're fired if you don't reply to my email, or there's an executive order that's like, you must call it the Gulf of America. And then legal briefs get written defending their positions saying,
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Okay. Well, Ben Wittes, we've got more with you coming. We're bringing in a couple of your colleagues to do foreign policy and talk about Ukraine and a new podcast you guys are working on. So you, Ben, stick around. Everybody else stick around. We'll be right back. All right, we are back. Ben Wittes is still here, unfortunately.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
He's not exactly been uplifting so far today, and so we're hoping some new blood will help freshen things up. We've also got his colleagues, Anastasia Lopotna, a Ukrainian journalist, and she's the co-host of this new podcast, Escalation, which is a narrative series on the history of U.S.-Ukrainian relations. Tyler McBride, managing editor of Lawfare, is the other co-host. What's up, y'all? Hello.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Do you have any jokes? Do you have any Ukrainian jokes you want to share with us, Anastasia?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
That's not exactly an uplifting humor. It's all we got. I'm chuckling. All right. Talk to us about the podcast. Why are you guys doing it? What was the rationale behind it? What are you trying to get out of it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Well, I was pretty disappointed that you had to start the podcast in 1991 rather than, I don't know, a little bit later, because it meant that you took a shot at Poppy Bush, the best president of my lifetime, who I guess, you know, maybe had a couple of misses. We all have a couple of misses and maybe didn't get things started off on the right foot. So what happened in that first episode?
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Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
That literally, I guess, SaneWash isn't even the right word. It's like they legal wash it. They have to come up with fancy justifications for Elon's ketamine-fueled impulses. And so I guess that is then the space you end up in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Got it. Tyler, as a non-Ukrainian, what of those hard feelings or other facts did you discover over the course of the project that stuck out to you?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Nastia, take us up to the present day. It's impossible for me to get in the head of how Ukrainians are thinking about all of this right now. And obviously, you know, there can be people with different perspectives. It's not going to be a uniform response.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
But I'm just wondering, you know, when you talk to folks back home, etc., like how the mood is, you know, as these kind of negotiations, so to speak, unfolds.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
What are the complaints about him from people that don't like him?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
I want to go around the horn. I mean, obviously this podcast is a look back, but there are lessons, of course, from the escalation throughout history.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
I just want to hear what everybody thinks, you know, what the echoes are going to be now and like where, where things are going to go from here, because obviously there's a ton of uncertainty, but surely there's some lessons from your guys' work on that. So Ben, why don't you go first and we'll just go around the horn.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Just a few casual things, switching sides to be on the baddies and trying to dismantle our republic. Other than that, some minor actions the first month. Tyler, do you see it that stark?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
et cetera, against Ukraine and Europe. Is there the resolve or the desire within Ukraine and within the rest of Europe to go at it without us? Like, how do you see that playing out?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
All right. Well, I hate to leave people with that, but such is the world that we're in. Nasia's sub-stack is called Yours Ukrainian. You can get the podcast at Lawfare. So go and check that out. Ben, Nasia, Tyler, thanks so much for being on the Bullard Podcast. Everybody else will be back here tomorrow for another edition. See you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
This is not a one-woman quest anymore. It was a one-woman quest. I was listening to this on the podcast, but did you see this from yesterday? Judge Colleen Collar-Cotton. Yes, well, that was.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
I think it's cute that you think that we were at or near the bottom. We're not even, we can't even see the bottom from here, Ben.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Yeah, it's different strokes, different strokes. I just, I launched my podcast focused on Gen Z issues with all Gen Z guests that our episode two is out today. FYI pod, if that interests you, go subscribe. But like, I've already had some comments this morning from people complaining about the 24 year olds. And I was like, maybe this isn't the podcast for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
if you're going to be very annoyed by 24-year-olds, and that's okay. I want to get back to the judge, Collar Catelli, because it was pretty striking, the New York Times article this morning about this. Bradley Humphreys was the lawyer for the government who just couldn't answer this question, who was in charge of Doge, who was the Doge administrator.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
And I was listening to you and Anna talk about that, you know, maybe this is just my politics brain on, but like the reason that they're aligning this is all related to FOIA, right? Like, is that why? Because they want, Elon wants to avoid having to have any transparency or accountability.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
And so if he's technically in the office of the president, the rules are different for him than if he was the administrator of a Of a government agency? Is that what this comes down to, or is there something else I'm missing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Yeah. So here's a tangible example. This is in the Matt Baez story in the Washington Post this morning, which is really alarming and good and terrifying all at the same time. But he's writing about the USAID and the funding and how funds are being dispersed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
And here it says, Rubio decreed that certain critical programs such as aid to Ukraine and costs related to the PEPFAR program to combat HIV in Africa would continue to be funded. Several times USAID managers prepared packages of these payments and got the agency's interim leaders to sign off on them with support from the White House. But each time, the Doge employees would veto the payments.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Hugging you on the way down. Yeah. Bringing you down with him. We're going to get to Dan Pongino. We've got so much to get to. I've been binging on the Lawfare part. I'm not alone, actually. I had a friend that sent me a screenshot of something. And if you're playing on CarPlay, it accidentally gives you a double screenshot. Have you ever done that where you send a text to someone?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
So, meanwhile, AIDS clinics shuttered and staff found themselves stranded in unstable countries such as Congo, etc., etc. So, this is an example of what you're talking about. Exactly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Yeah, I looked into it. It was they named the two guys that when it wasn't big balls, I guess big balls doesn't I guess this is outside his remit. But it was I think it was the guy from Nebraska that also uncovered the scrolls. And then it was like one of Elon's vaping staffers at SpaceX, one of his interns, I think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
It's a little bit – you're pumping them up a little bit more than I think they deserve. Some of these guys, I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Hello and welcome to the Bulldog Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I'm so excited to have back Ben Wittes. He's Editor-in-Chief of Lawfare, Senior Fellow in Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution. He also writes Dog Shirt Daily on Substack. What's up, Ben?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Well, and what we do, what I do here, is now take this moment to appreciate, because we all need this, the fact that little Marco Rubio is the first Secretary of State in history to get vetoed by a 23-year-old who just has decided that his decrees... are not worth the paper that they're printed on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
So Marco, despite being whatever that is in line to the presidency force, he is, he's also reporting to a 23 year old Berkeley dropout, uh, who is, uh, you know, playing Minecraft while vetoing his statements. Okay. So there's that. We're going to come back to, I want you to educate us on these lawsuits that are happening right now, because it's really important, but it's, that's also very thick.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
And so I want to start with Eaglehead Martin first, before we get back to the lawsuits. Eagle Ed is a US attorney from DC. We've been discussing him a lot. He put out a statement yesterday that I think it's worth us breaking down. It's a legal document. He says this, as President Trump's lawyers, there's a typo there. He acts as if the word Trump is plural. It's T-R-U-M-P-S apostrophe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
So it's a plural apostrophe, even though it's a singular human
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Well, no, we're going to get to legal error. There are many errors in this. It's a two-sentence statement that contains abundant errors.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
Anyway, they were also listening to the Lawfare pod. So many of us want to understand what's happening in the law.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
As President Trump's lawyers, we are proud to fight to protect his leadership as our president. and we are vigilant in standing against entities. Like, who do you think the entities are that he's vigilant in standing against? I'll tell you. The Associated Press. I see, yeah. Entities like the AP that refuse to put America first. There it is again.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Wittes: Who the F*** Are You?
As President Trump's lawyers, we are proud to fight to protect his leadership as our president, and we are vigilant in standing against entities like the AP that refuse to put America first. That was an official statement.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Oh, battle him of the Republic where it's going to play. All the dignitaries are going to stand there and we're going to have salutes from the military. Like fuck all of this. Why is everybody going along with all of this? Tom, you are a protector of norms. Am I wrong? Fuck it all. I was like, why, why give him this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I mean, it is the first time that we have had an inauguration for somebody who attempted a coup. Yeah, of a convicted felon. And of a felon. The felony actually I care less about than – because you could have an honorable felon. Somebody got a DUI as a felon and then ends up becoming the president who is whatever. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
He instigated an attack on the Constitution in the building where he took the oath that he obviously doesn't care about. It's a sham. Right. It's a sham.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Oh, man. I have a Democrat's rant. Let's just table it because I have a few other rants about Trump first before we get to the Democrats. But I do hear you on that point. Let's go to the big tech CEOs next, unless you have a different place you'd like to go.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
The voting public is definitely on my list of people who are failures yesterday, which is pretty much everybody.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Yeah, you haven't even seen this list I'm looking through right now. I don't know about you, but I'm in the market for some retail therapy this week. And with a new year comes a new chance to reimagine our closet. And now we can, thanks to our sponsor, Quince. I think everybody needs Quince's Mongolian cashmere sweaters, starting at 60 bucks, especially on these chilly January days.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Of course, they use premium fabrics and finishes for that luxury feel in every piece. I've been pumped about my new Quince clothes. Though I do have to admit, my favorite item is, is it not really a winter item? It's like an army green shacket. And I'm excited to start wearing once it warms up a little bit. It snowed in New Orleans this week. I'm in New York, so I didn't get to see it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
A 60-year snow. My child FaceTimed me. and said, did you know that the last time it snowed in New Orleans, you weren't even born yet? I was kind of blowing her mind. And so, you know, it's going to take a little bit till I get to get into spring wear. But Quince has set me up with a bunch of new looks that I've tried on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
And I'm excited to debut to you on the YouTube feed here once that 50 year storm blows over. So you want to join me? Upgrade your closet this year with the upgraded price tag. Go to quince.com slash the bulwark for 365-day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash the bulwark to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash the bulwark.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Let's go to the big tech CEOs, though, because I think it might end up being the most significant thing from the inauguration. The combined net worth of the four wealthiest people who are in the front row of Trump's inauguration is $1.06 trillion. It was Google CEO Sundar, Musk. Who else was there? Zuckerberg, Bezos. They were all in row one, and then you had RFK.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
seated behind them and the rest of the cabinet, which tells you something. Out in the audience, Tulsi, the nominee to be the Director of National Intelligence, was seated next to Shou Chu, the CEO of a Chinese spyware app, TikTok. They were seated right next to each other, the director of national intelligence.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
And so, you know, I think that from a populist standpoint, there might be some political ramifications for them. But I also think that maybe the bumpers on Trump this time won't actually be the cabinet, but the bumpers and pool noodles will come from all the rich people that have decided that they want to hang around with him this time. So open season on any of that, Tom.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Well, he cares about keeping brown immigrants out, tariffs, and vengeance against his foes. He cares about three things, I think. And himself, and like ego, ego. So like that's...
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I think that probably some of the listeners are going to want for me to go next to the Elon Nazi salute at the post inauguration, at the traditional post inauguration rally held inside the basketball arena. He does this thing where he says, my heart goes out to you and kind of touches his heart and then does a little bit of a seek Kyle type thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I judged that to be a person like on the Asperger's spectrum doing a very weird salute. My heart goes out to people. I don't know what's going on in Elon Musk's head or heart. Could also have been a troll. Could have been intentional. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I do think it's pretty silly to focus on when you have a man that is one of the richest people in the world that has now an office in the White House who is also a government contractor and And gave a quarter billion dollars to the very malleable, as you say, incoming president.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Like the scale of corruption that is coming, the scale of people of putting the thumb of giving little assistance and handouts and favors to friends of Elon. friends of the other four richest men in the world that were sitting there. I feel like that is going to have much greater consequences and probably is a better place to focus. But I'm curious your thoughts on either of those.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
You could sell me definitely on Elon Musk doing a Star Trek salute and not realizing it was the same thing as Hitler. I definitely think that is possible.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Vivek's out of Doge. Yeah. He didn't even last a full Scaramucci. Yeah, no, that's right. He was out before the administration even started.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Yeah, I don't know. What do you think about some of our friends on the left? As you pointed out, Biden in his farewell address focuses on the tech industrial complex. I think that there is going to be a very strong move towards doing a eat the rich type economic populism targeting the Trump billionaires as the Democrats path out of the wilderness. Some elements of that make me a little bit queasy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Yeah, let's look at the pardons a little bit. So it was just, I believe last week, maybe it's two weeks ago. It's hard to tell. I'm aging in dog years. But the now Vice President J.D. Vance said that if you committed violence on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned. Obviously, he said.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
you know, when we start talking about vigilante murders, but I do think that it is, and it is just undeniably a massive problem.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
political issue for like the working class party for these to be the images isn't it like the gilded class and the gilded capital used to be no no no the republicans if the republicans want to be the new working class party it's like we're in the gilded capital with the richest guys in the world and their new wives and all the tech guys are looking at business as new wives like a little cleavage and it's like is this this is the hunger games like the forgotten man isn't up there behind the scenes behind the stage rather
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Populism is having an inauguration speech about two genders in the Gulf of America. OK, populism is not about economics.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
To throw out a couple of the people that were pardoned yesterday, David Dempsey was convicted of assaulting police officers with pepper spray, a metal crutch, wooden and metal poles, sentenced to 20 years in prison. Daniel Rodriguez was convicted of using a stun gun and plunging it multiple times into Michael Fanone's neck. Brian Sicknick's attacker was pardoned.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Not really a problem for us with the tens of trillions of dollars in debts that we have getting the money back into circulation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I don't know. I think the eat the rich stuff is... It's going to be a tempting path for the Democrats when you have these.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Yeah, much more to talk about this. And I think that also just the cronyism element of it might be good enough in itself. That Donald Trump has betrayed them, that he doesn't care about them. He only cares about his new rich buddies that are kissing his butt. You almost saw it with the visa thing that broke out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I want to end with some more theater criticism, but just one more actual real life consequence of Trump's inauguration yesterday. So there had been put in place a new app, CBP app, that was allowing people in a more orderly way to apply for asylum to come to the border, which is what I've been told everybody wants, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
They didn't want people coming across the border illegally and uncontrolled who wanted to be able to vet these people. And so that app had been creating a more orderly system. Unauthorized border crossings have been down. As soon as Trump was inaugurated, they shut down the app, of course.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Their family put out a statement they sent to me this morning. His brother sent me this morning that's saying that there are no words that adequately describe the pain of losing Brian and the suffering we have endured every day since never to end. These pardons are intended to end a grave national injustice that has been perpetrated on the American people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
So there were some images yesterday of people that had been doing what we're told you're supposed to do, wait in line for their opportunity to come back. There was a video of a woman just bawling who I think had an appointment like three hours after the app went down.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
And so I don't know that there will be any political consequence to this because it seems like the country doesn't really care about our tradition of welcoming people, the tired and poor and huddled masses. But that doesn't make it any less interesting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Also putting flags at full mast for every inauguration. Right, right. Important stuff like that, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Yes. Well, I don't know if you sound weird. Hopefully, maybe that resonates with some people. But no, I am filled with rage. I am like a poo-flinging monkey right now. I am filled with rage at everyone. And I have no optimism. And I think that things are going to just absolutely get worse and worse every day.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
and to begin the process of national reconciliation. It's up to the American people to decide whether this purpose will be achieved. Michael Fanone had a little stronger words than that. I want to play that for you. Thanks, America.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Screw you, Tim. I'm depressed again. You did it. You win. I had one more thing that I just had to mention about the speech. I have three more like, and this is grinding my gears. What was that? It's our second Simpsons reference. So it was the Ken Brockman segment. What's grinding your gears this week? I had three more things yesterday that were grinding my gears. This is the liberation of America.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
And I guess this combines, so we'll just combine the topics to my second thing, grinding my gears, which was the media's treatment of yesterday. That was the kind of rhetoric that you would use if you are overthrowing a despot. And that was really the frame that Trump framed up his whole speech about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
There was these attacks on the freedoms of MAGA Americans and free speech, and the Justice Department was politicized, and now I am here to liberate the country. Again, just like the birthright citizenship thing, that is a fundamentally un-American view. It was not in line with the other inaugural addresses that bestow the virtues of America to
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Talk about how maybe we don't live up to the Constitution and Declaration, but we're trying to improve. It was in line with 2016.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
The coverage. But shouldn't you treat it like it's interesting? So I just want to read a couple of things and you can riff. Yeah, sure. Politico this morning. Time to admit it. Trump is a great president. He's still trying to be a good one. That was a headline by John Harris, the editor of Politico.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I was watching network coverage yesterday and they come out of his like insane rants was like, you know, and there is Donald Trump advancing his message. There was a reporter who talked about how Elon was donating his time and that's the most that he can give to this country. CNN talked about how Trump's inauguration was within the realm of normalcy. Was it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Donnie Deutsch on Morning Joe this morning talked about how Democrats should start looking at what Trump is doing right from a winning point of view. Trump is giving people what they want. What are these people watching?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Like the Democrats really need to do something differently and should start, you know, what Donnie George says, start listening to the people and the media. The media shouldn't have the hair on fire that they did last time. It didn't work. And I kind of look at all that. I'm like, didn't it work? I mean, when Trump was president – There was hair on fire for four years about him, and then he lost.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
And then he went away to Mar-a-Lago, and we deplatformed him, and people stopped talking about him as much. And meanwhile, Fox and Steve Bannon called Joe Biden an illegitimate president his entire four years. Fox attacked Joe Biden and Kamala Harris from the first second that he was in there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
There was nobody saying, like, the Republicans really should have learned their lesson from Trump losing, and they should be a little more accommodating to Joe Biden right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
appropriate sirens in the background here in New York. It's pretty fucking outrageous that the people that attacked Brian Sicknick and Michael Fanone were pardoned.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Yeah, I think I've left the church, I guess is my point. But the media has a hard job. There's no doubt about that. I just think yesterday was just a failure. And it was just so... The suspending of disbelief. You don't have to suspend disbelief about Donald Trump's oath to cover it, I guess is my point. And I felt like I was seeing that across the board.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Like we all just got here from Mars. Yeah. Which takes me to the final one and even the Democrats. And this is my – I'm with you. If the Democrats want to learn from 2024 that they've got to talk more normal and re-find some cultural connection with parts of America, there are plenty of things that the Democrats need to do differently.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Obviously, the podcast house curmudgeon, Tom Nichols of The Atlantic. New audio book out about the death of expertise. Think we can throw some dirt on the expertise grave. Tom, how are you doing? Hanging in there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
If the lesson is they need to accommodate this more and attack him less, that is wrong. And I hate to pick on Amy Klobuchar, but I have to. This was Amy Klobuchar on MSNBC last night about her – Her job, her ministerial duties at the inauguration and the car ride that she had with Donald Trump and Joe Biden.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
It wasn't. What? You bet I wish I was in there. You bet I was wishing – you wish I was in the car with Donald Trump on the way to the – I wish you were. I mean, not in the way that you mean, Amy. Not in the way that you mean. And we have a new FBI, so I don't want to have any – don't take any subjects there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I'm just saying your options in this situation are stern and silent respect for the institution and your duties. That's one option. Or protest. That's the road I'm on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
protest or speaking to his face and saying you should not you are not going to do this you know to whatever group you want to harangue him about those are the options not like oh yay it's nice wasn't it cool i got to be in the limo we're in the transition i can think of that was like so we were in the car and we had a really great conversation we talked about the la fires and then he pardoned 1500 violent insurrectionists
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Did you mention during the LA Fires thing, did you ask him about the fact that he was threatening to not give money to the recovery because he doesn't like Gavin Newsom? Did that come up?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Where is the Amy Klobuchar that threw a comb at a staffer, I guess is my question, because that's the Amy Klobuchar that I wanted to see in the limousine. Not the, oh, let's make nice with Donald Trump and pretend like he might invite me back to the Oval Office and we're going to be able to do business together. Fuck that. Opposition. You're an opposition party right now. That is your job.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Do you have any other final thoughts you need to get off your chest about yesterday?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
You lead me right back into the dark. You signed up for this podcast today, Tom. It was the day after the inauguration. You could have said, Tim, I got to wash my hair the day after the inauguration. Can we do it on Valentine's Day? That would have been an option. You agreed. This is what you signed up for.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
On the seditious conspiracy, Enrique Tarrio, another person that was pardoned, he was being held in a medium security prison in Louisiana, was being processed out last night. In addition to organizing the Proud Boys' effort to disrupt the transfer of power on January 6th, he actually wasn't able to join
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
All right. Well, we'll have you back the first time Pete Hegseth has a crisis. Everybody can get excited for that. I'm sure he'll handle it really well. Just his experience as a co-host on a weekend talk show, I think has really set him up nicely for this. Tom Nichols, thank you, as always, for doing, you know, I think combat pay is deserved for the day after inauguration podcast.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
All right, everybody. With that, I'll be back tomorrow. We're going to do all tech oligarchs all the time. I've got a very exciting new guest on the pod. Looking forward to it. Tom Nichols. We'll see you next time. Everybody else, we'll see you tomorrow. Peace. The Board Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
the people that he had organized because he was already arrested on January 4th, two days earlier. He and a group set fire to a Black Lives Matter banner that they had seized from a historic black church in D.C. They were also part of a group that got into a fight outside another black church. Four people were stabbed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
During the inauguration yesterday, Trump was talking about how he was chosen by God. And then a few hours later, he pardoned and got released for prison somebody who was convicted of seditious conspiracy and convicted of attacks on multiple black churches.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Are you ready for my, my dark thought here? Might as well get there. Comp unions are kind of on the side of the rioters, I think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Maybe my only positive thing of the whole show, Pam Hemphill. was one of the defendants for her behavior on January 6th. She pled guilty. She put out a statement saying that she would not be accepting the pardon. She was guilty, and it was Trump who should be held accountable.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
One person with integrity. I guess my final thing on the pardon topic is... When you look at upcoming threats, I mean, I think that there are – and we're going to go through the plans that Trump has and the new incoming administration has on immigration and other matters. But I worry about as much – about rogue actors feeling empowered as I do about the actual administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
To me, that is one of the biggest threats of all this, right? The incentive is to just do whatever you want and figure that you'll get pardoned on the back end if you got a MAGA hat on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
All right. You parcel because I am just about ready to stroke out today. I have such a lengthy list of of things to do old man yell at cloud with you about the Google Doc, this amount of scrolling required to get to everything we're not going to be able to. Because as far as I'm concerned, basically every single person involved in yesterday brought shame on themselves at some level.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
All right. That was a good place to start. I get to go next.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
We're going to play a game. It's kind of like a deal. You get to pick one. I get to pick one. We'll go back and forth. I think that to me, probably the most outrageous thing yesterday was about birthright. It was the birthright citizenship.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Okay, great. Well, we're aligned. I want to read for people if they haven't, if they don't have their little pocket constitution handy, I would like to read for people the first sentence of the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and the state wherein they reside. All persons born.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
go ahead no i was just gonna say this is fucking insane the people that go waving around the constitution are not objecting to this is insane it is as clear as day in there you might not like it but guess what liberals don't like the second amendment like could joe biden have gone in on the first day of 2021 and said i have an executive order repealing the second amendment and you can no longer buy guns in this country until it's adjudicated through the court system like would anybody have been on board with that
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
The executive order includes people, by the way, born by parents who are legally in America. It doesn't even include, it isn't even just about people that are here illegally. Usha Vance and Kamala Harris would both not be citizens of the United States under the executive order that Trump put forth, at least until they got married. Everyone's just like, oh, whatever. No worries.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. There are 1,460 days left in the second presidency of Donald Trump. We have survived day one, which was a shameful and epic sham that was best summed up by the snapshot of Trump forgetting to put his hand on the Bible while he repeated an oath to the Constitution he had no intention of upholding. Who to discuss such a farce with?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Not even this Supreme Court is going to go along with this executive order. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I think the only honorable choice was to abstain or protest. So Karen Pence and Michelle Obama, shout out to you. But given like the extent of my rage, I can't really decide where to start. So I'm giving you dealer's choice. What set you off the most?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Yeah. The reason why it makes me upset, outside of the fact that it's just fundamentally un-American, is... And stupid. And stupid.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
And this is related to my whole problem with yesterday. Just as stagecraft and as statecraft, which I alluded to at the top,
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
like it's just all a farce it was a farce and donald trump knows it's a farce right he doesn't put his hand on the bible he gives a speech that's kind of normal kind of i want to get into the speech a little more i don't want to give him normal because there are some things that are pretty ridiculous in there and then he gives another speech an hour later he's kind of like what i really wanted to say but i knew i couldn't for the tv show portion of the inauguration what i really wanted to say is that adam kinzinger is a cry baby like that's really what i wanted to talk about
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
You know, Trump is not treating it with any seriousness. It's totally fake for him. He has no intention of upholding the Constitution. We know that because, you know, the last time he was in the Capitol, he was sicking a mob on it. I guess he didn't go, actually.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
But the last time there were Trump supporters in the Capitol, he sent them there to attack people and to disrupt the constitutional transfer of power. And hours after he accepted it, he says, I'm going to sign this executive order that just totally rejects something that is plain text inside the constitution. And yet we're all supposed to do this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Jesse, that takes me kind of to the political question on this, because I agree with Scott's assessment, right? So it's not like this is an economic calamity right now. It is true, though, that the Republicans successfully ran on kind of annoying policies.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
inflation you know staying high that the economy wasn't wasn't running on those cylinders under sleepy joe biden or whatever like they successfully made the economic argument and all the indicators have gotten worse in the next two months despite all of the horrors of the project 2025 and all the stuff that gets us really upset about you know democracy i mean like is this the the play i guess for democrats to focus on on economic matters how do you think they should take that on
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
That's fine. Maybe, yeah. That's fair. But regardless, it's a good brand, actually. And if you guys ever collapse or if you have a fight between the two of you and you need to kind of sell off some of your pod assets on the market, I might steal it from you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
That would have been my rage rant if you yelled at me. But I agree with you. It's probably not the most politically salient. It's just most personally enraging.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Was there a lot of respect for due process around the table yesterday? I didn't catch the five yesterday. I apologize. Oh.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
I'm sorry.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
I don't think it's about your femininity. I think it's the fact that you come from the progressive background. As a former Republican, this does not bother me. It seems like a problem for your therapist.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Okay, well, I'm jealous and we'll figure something out. But I figured because I'm so jealous... of the brand that, that may be a good way to start because we're in, we're almost two months in now. I know it feels like, isn't that crazy?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
This is a totally aside, but you started talking about the message testing. I have the two of you, so I might as well get your expertise on this. My most unpopular opinion in campaign consulting circles is I think campaign message testing is mostly bullshit. I'm curious your take on this. I just think that I've sat through enough of these things where I think there's value in...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
And obviously looking at data, focus grouping. But you have this thing where we play an ad. You play five ads for people who are sitting there playing video games. And then they press up or down on the thing about whether they like it or not or whether it moves them or not. And then it's like... A, do these people even know what they want?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
I don't think consumers even actually know what convinces them and what doesn't. And two, one was plus 8.2 and one was plus 7.4. And it's like, we got to go with the plus 8. Where do you fall on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Do I sound like the old guy, like Charles Barkley, going against analytics in sports when I say this, or is there something here? The two of you are going to forget more about this than I'm going to know. Well, you do corporate. It's interesting. Is there something you could be learned from the corporate side?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
The same. It's, it's hard. I've like, I can watch myself age on YouTube now. It's really distressing that I get to like see a daily hourly, like wrinkle depth grow. But I thought maybe I would just, you know, give you guys a chance to talk about what has made you rage the most in the first two months of of Trump 2.0. Jessie, why don't you go first?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
I've made $800 billion. Sorry, thank you. That's like the heritage number, even. It's probably going to be way worse. The deficit increase of this is going to... Yeah, that's annual.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Well, that's what I might add on the no tax on tips and all that stuff, which takes the number up even higher.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
We're going to do an ad test right now, just among the three of us, because this is the first real midterm ad I've seen so far. It's out this morning. Our friends at VoteVets, we have an article about it on the Bullwark today, and I just want to play a clip for it for the two of you and have you react.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
That's all we're doing here.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
You're in the real world, girl. You're walking around the News Corp hallways.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
You got Judge Box of Wine in there and people with all kinds of different backgrounds.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Yeah, there's a lot there I agree with. I also want to just point out, you're mentioning that after this assault on DEI, I was pretty offended. I don't know about you guys, about the Irish DEI at the White House yesterday. All the leprechauns? Yeah, why do we have to fuck it? Do we turn the pond green? Why are we acknowledging the Irish? They're a special category.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
We're getting rid of the pride flags. We're getting rid of Black History Month. I don't get why the Irish deserve a you know, deserve a carve out.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
DE Irish yesterday at the White House. I was not fucking pleased about that. That was my issue with the ad is that like, Elon wants to ruin the country. Do people really buy that? I'm not sure. Elon is cashing in, you know, and I think that maybe the empathy thing might work if it kind of combines the incompetence and we're picking a specific person.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
And it's like, this person has a very central job at the VA, right? And like, I worked at the VA and I served veterans who were injured or whatever. I worked at VA hospital, right? Like a specific story. And it's like, and I make, you know, whatever, $68,000 a year. And like, I got canned and Elon's taking in 8 million a day.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
You know, like, I just think that maybe there's a sharper, sharper way to do it. Scott, you've kind of already alluded to this, so I guess we'll start with you. I want to do Dems in the Wilderness stuff and what they should be doing. You already talked about how you think they should be more focused on their message. How do you get attention, though, with a more focused message?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Tactically speaking, we had this big showdown on the Hill that fizzled where Schumer decided not to really go to the mat on the government shutdown. So that opportunity has passed. How do you get attention? I mean, going out there and talking specifically about how tax cuts for the rich are bad is good. But how do you get on to the five? How do you break through to people?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Like who?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Well, it's hard to be singing from the same hymn book when you have AFC and Richie Torres, though, on your list. That's part of the problem, though. I mean, they've got a pretty different perspective on things.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
So your rage is about what's happened, not the fact that they got away with the fact that they pretended like they weren't going to do Project 2025.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Listening to you, that's where my rage goes to.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
I have an idea that maybe there's nobody out there to execute this, but I think that somebody should start running for president now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
And I think that people are going to, um, reject that out of hand because everybody is like, I'm so sick of fucking, you know, I'm sick of politics. And that's what people say. This is why, again, people, people, what people say does not match their actions. A lot of times, which is why I'm skeptical of ad testing, but, uh, there's no leadership because there's no leader. And like, uh,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
There's a huge attention gap because you have two co-presidents on one side, one who owns a social media platform, and then you have a bunch of people, like some people Scott mentioned, who I agree are doing a good job, Chris Murphy, Jasmine Crockett. They're just kind of like mid-to-back bench legislators.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
And I think that probably the person that starts running for president now will not actually become the president, but you never know. And I think it might be a good way to actually start getting attention and to becoming a heat shield for some of the other Democrats. I don't know. That's my off-the-wall idea.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
And you know Jessica Tarloff from the clips on Twitter. She's the co-host of The Five on Fox News. And I discovered when I was on y'all's show that you're actually Jessie. So we're friends now. So I can call you Jessie. Yeah, we're in. They didn't want their prime Jessie. To be dunked on by a girl Jessie. I'm definitely backup Jessie.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Is it? Maybe.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Why not?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
And fortune favors the bold. I don't know. If you just look back in the past, like everybody, all the smart people, all the cautious smart people would have been like, it's ridiculous for Gavin Newsom or one of these people to primary Joe Biden, right? After 2022, that was the, it was, it was, it's hopeless. You have no chance. You shouldn't do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
I don't know. There are at least a handful of them that look back on that now and think, well, maybe I should have done it. Maybe it would have ended up being me, not Kamala. Big vacuum right now. There's a big vacuum right now. Scott, you mentioned how Wes Moore is focused on young men. You've got a lot of good shtick on this topic. Last time I had you on, we did like 20 minutes on this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
So I want the updated shtick. I want your latest assessment for what is happening with young men and what Democrats should be doing about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Okay. St. Bart's is ridiculous. Go to Tulum or something. You can afford.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Jesse, is that focus on young men still non grata in democratic circles or are people starting to get it?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
and that it didn't do better. There's an unbelievable amount of self-flagellation.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
That dude's everywhere right now. His PR tour is great. I can't get away from him.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
That I've learned as an immigrant to the Democratic side, ostensibly. Yeah, it's unbelievable.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Last thing is for Scott. We're out of time, but I'm obsessed with the crypto scam Trump is running. So if you could just give me a rapid fire on what you think is the scale of the scam that is being run in this White House where we're letting off Chinese, you know, crypto magnets who are being under investigation by the SEC. And then they're in turn giving tens of millions of dollars to Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
So if you just give me a couple sentences on that. And then I had a listener request. They wanted investment advice for you if the economy is going to go to shit. So those are my two final questions for you as brief as possible or as long as possible. It's your time, not mine. I don't know where to be.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Donald Trump was just like, I won. I didn't lose, actually. And I'm going to keep doing all the same shit I did. And nobody was like, have you... Have you thought, have you reflected on what the voters told you? Have you listened more to the suburban moms going to Pilates and going to yoga class? Maybe you should have listened to them more. There was none of that on Fox in 2021.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
It's a wonderful place to leave it. And I always like to admit that I don't fucking know shit. And so we're just trying to do the best we can to figure it out here on this podcast. I appreciate folks listening. It's the Raging Moderates. I appreciate you guys a lot. Let's keep doing this from time to time. And when you want to rage about something, doors always open, all right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Okay, that has my blood boiling. That's like at a six and a half for me, but that's pretty good. Yeah, six and a half. There's a lot of angry shit out there. Scott, what's making you rage?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
The Borg Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Dubai is where you're going? I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
They kind of gave you some gender-confirming name care over at Fox, I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Everybody you rage the most at the people that are like the nearest to you, right? The family feud is going to be the most potent, right? And so you're near to mine because mine are the Wall Street Journal Republican wealthy, who are actually, you know, more complicit than the folks you're talking about, maybe less hypocritical, but more complicit.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Every rich person I talked to, I asked this question, Scott, so I'm going to pose it to you. I'm hoping that someone will say something that will break the lock in my brain that is preventing me from understanding this. But like, Thinking particularly about the CEO class, Trump has been such a dumb bet.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
So I'm not talking here about the wealthy progressives that voted against Kamala but haven't objected enough. I'm also mad at them. I'm talking about people that actually either went for Trump or just sat it out, didn't really use their power and influence one way or the other. And this was such an obvious risk.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Like the downside risk of him, I get the tax cuts, but the downside risk of him, like who the fuck knows what's going to happen with these trade wars? Who knows what's going to happen in global affairs with somebody as erratic as him? Who knows what's going to happen when he's 82 years old and might want to hold on to power? Like don't rich people want stability?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Didn't they all make money under Joe Biden? I understand why somebody who is pissed about their grocery prices might have might have flipped. I don't understand why a rich person whose investment fund doubled during the Biden era was willing to take a flyer on Trump. So can you explain that one to me?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
I like that. I'm going to keep that one in my back pocket. I want to start with you guys. I'm very jealous of your brand of the podcast, The Raging Moderates. And I want to know who gets the credit for it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
I'm sorry. J.D. Vance and Theo Vaughn said you can't do cocaine anymore because of the fentanyl risk. So we're not doing cocaine anymore.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Yeah. Ketamine. Yeah. Micro micro dosing. DeleteMe makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. DeleteMe does all the hard work of wiping you and your family's personal information from data broker websites.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Could not be more delighted to be here today with the co-host of the Raging Moderates Podcast, Scott Galloway, professor of marketing at NYU Stern School of Business, also host of the Prof G Pod and co-host of Pivot with Kara Swisher. It's the only man that pods more than I do out in the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
Delete.me sends you regular personalized privacy reports showing what info they found, where they found it, and what they removed. Delete.me isn't just a one-time service. They're always working for you, constantly monitoring and removing the personal information you don't want on the internet. As I mentioned, I've been turning to Delete.me.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
I actually needed to use it recently because I never was familiar with one of these. So here's a little scam tip for everybody. I'd never heard about this one before. It was an email bomb. I was worried that the Russians were coming for me at first, because I had this spam email bomb that went into my Gmail. And I was trying to figure out what happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
And what happens in this situation is that it's a person that's trying to use your credit card or use one of your accounts. In my case, it was one of my mileage accounts. And so they hide the one email where they're actually trying to steal your miles, like
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
in the middle of just this like insane hurricane of like, we've signed you up for a French lingerie and we've signed you up for a new wine club and we've signed, you know, like all of this other stuff. It's a creative scam, but I caught him. I caught him. We sniffed it out. And we're using Delete Me to continue to protect me.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
So take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners. Today, get 20% off your Delete Me plan by texting BULLWORK to 64000. The only way to get 20% off is to text BULLWORK to 64000. That's BULLWORK to 64000. Message and data rates apply.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
The economy thing, I want to push back just because even in short-term thinking, their argument is kind of failing already. I mean, the amount of wealth that has been lost by those rich guys that were sitting in front of the cabinet at the inauguration in the first two months just in the stock market is pretty astonishing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1002: Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov: The Cheap Whore at the White House
What is your sense for kind of the short-term economic situation we're looking at right now?
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Hey y'all, we've got a couple new things I want to point you to. First up, today, Tuesday, I am starting a new pod called FYPod that is focused on Gen Z issues. I'm doing it with my buddy Cameron Kasky. He was the kid that started March for Our Lives after the Parkland shooting. We are going to bring on a wide array...
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Are you kidding me? How could anybody believe that? I mean, this is a part of the whole bluff, I think. I guess it's related, but just continue on that point. But also, even if they did agree to a security guarantee, I mean, like, who would believe that the Trump-Vance administration would do anything to protect whatever part of Ukraine falls under that security guarantee or the Baltics, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
would anybody think that we would at this point? And I find it just very hard to like, what would even be the case for the, the argument that like Trump would make to people, you know what I mean? Like he is rhetorically, even if he wanted to.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
But we'll be focused particularly on the challenges facing young men. I think it'll be a fun pod. please go subscribe to it. There's a link in the show notes. Again, it's called FY pod or for you pod. It's a play on the for you page on, on Tik TOK and on other social media accounts where, where you're getting fed news by the algorithm. We're going to feed people some news via our mental algorithm.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Yeah, for sure. But I just mean to his own voters. Like, I mean, like his whole rationale has been that this is a waste. We're getting screwed by these people. We should focus on ourselves first. Like the idea that Trump would send troops into Estonia, I think is farcical. Hopefully we don't have to cross that bridge, but...
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Yeah. You mentioned the Russian newspapers. That's the one that you shared was dumbfounded Europe need by America just below the belt is still struggling to get its breath back. It was a Russian, a columnist in the Russia paper.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
I mentioned briefly at the beginning, but the election thing is interesting that Russia and all of kind of the leaks about what Russia wants out of this deal, like they do want elections. And I wonder if maybe that is partially... I don't know. Maybe it's me not understanding. Maybe it's Putin not understanding the reality on the ground in Ukraine. But it does feel like they think...
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
that they might be able to win this war without actually firing more shots, that they might have an election and that the election might be won by some Russian puppet type and they can just, you know, do this takeover quasi-electorally.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
And we take the first episode with a guy named Dylan Geick. He's famous. If you're like 23, apparently I'd never heard of him, but he's so charming. It was a fun episode. Check it out. If you have Zoomers in your life that you think might like it, send it to them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
One more thing on the negotiations in Saudi Arabia. So Zelensky was not included, of course. Rubio this morning said, nobody's being sidelined here. The only thing President Trump's trying to do is bring about peace. It's what he campaigned on. It's something the world should be thanking President Trump for. It's like North Korean commentary there from the Secretary of State.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Then the other news item right as we were starting to tape is Zelensky was originally going to go to Saudi Arabia tomorrow. It was unclear what his plans were and whether that was going to be related to the negotiations at all, but he's postponed that trip, suggesting now he wants to avoid being linked at all to these talks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
So, I mean, I don't know who they're trying to fool there with the no one is being sidelined, but clearly... the kind of lip service that Trump and Rubio had been giving to including Zelensky in this seems to be dissipating.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Depressing there that you just, I don't know if you did it intentionally, but you were referencing the allies there as allies. Ukraine and Europe, not including us. That's kind of a depressing realization. Bill Kristol is kind of writing about this this morning in the morning newsletter about how strange a feeling it is to be like, basically rooting for the US's diplomatic efforts to fail.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
If you're a parent of a Zoomer and you think it might give you some insight into what's happening with your kids, you should listen to it or anybody else in between. So I hope you enjoy For You Pod. One other thing. As I've mentioned several times, we are popping on YouTube over the course of the day with breaking news, shorter takes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
So anyway, such is life. Ever wonder how much of your personal data is out there on the internet for anyone to see? More than you think. Your name, contact info, social security number, and home address, even information about your family members, all being compiled by data brokers and sold online. That's why I personally recommend Delete.me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Delete.me is a subscription service that removes your personal info from hundreds of data brokers. You can sign up and provide Delete.me with exactly what information you want deleted, and their experts take it from there. Delete.me sends you regular personalized privacy reports showing what info they found and where they found it and what they removed. Delete.me isn't just a one-time service.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
It's always working for you, constantly monitoring and removing the personal information you don't want on the internet. To put it simply, Delete.me does all the hard work of wiping you and your family's personal information from data broker websites. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete.me, now at a special discount for our listeners.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Today, get 20% off your Delete.me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and use promo code bulwark at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com slash bulwark, code bulwark. The other kind of gift to Russia lately and China has been the gutting of USAID.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
And that's all happened since we last spoke. The news yesterday, the latest horror on this was that we've now, I guess, ended aid for victims of Agent Orange.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
vietnam and i think obviously that will be a massive propaganda win for the chinese in addition to just being totally wrong and like that's such a minor part of the budget and donald trump is like driving around on at the daytona 500 i mean like the cost of the daytona 500 and the super bowl trips for trump like would cover the agent orange victims for like another decade but i'm wondering do
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
you know, kind of what your thoughts are just broadly on the impact of the USAID, got it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
You know, something's happening that is outside of the podcast cycle. Either me or Sam Stein or sometimes Sarah and JBL, Will Salatin, others are jumping on YouTube for shorter video reactions to what's happening in the news. We've heard from people that some of you who are just like podcast only, who don't use YouTube, don't want to miss what we're doing over there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
I haven't read that article yet. We'll put it in the show notes for people. That is horrific. Another just horror story on this front and just talking about kind of how stupid this is and how inefficient it is and wrong. And it's not just the people that we're helping through USAID. It's people that work for USAID. There was a horror story. Kyle Chaney over at Politico was reporting about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
A USAID employee's pregnant wife was hemorrhaging. She's, I think, 31 weeks pregnant. And the doctor, whatever country they were in, it doesn't, it's redacted, said that they should be medevaced out to a place where, you know, there's better medical care. And there was a directive from Washington to not, you know, not fund any of these emergency health care issues taking place under USAID.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
The senator for this person, also named redacted, tried to intervene, but it was too late. And it was like too dangerous now to move the woman. It's just an unbelievable situation. story. There's no point to this and it's just capricious.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
So we've been posting those videos on Substack for people that are Bulwark Plus subscribers. But also now we've created a podcast feed that just aggregates those takes as they come in. It's called Bulwark Takes. I'll put that link in the show notes as well. So load up your podcast feed, sign up for FYPod, sign up for Bulwark Takes, give us five stars, give us a little review.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Have you ever wanted to learn more about wine but can't figure out where to start? But when you do start, it just feels like too much. Our next partner, Naked Wines, has changed the game for learning about wine without having to take a whole class about it. This podcast is sponsored by Naked Wines.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Naked Wines is a service that directly connects you to the world's finest independent winemakers so you can get award-winning wine delivered straight to your door. Use our code THEBULLWORK for the code and password at nakedwines.com and get their incredible deal of six bottles for just $39.99. Look, I went through a little phase. I moved out to the Bay Area, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
And everybody's such a wine snob. So I tried to learn about wines. And I have a few faves. I'm into the nabbies now. I am into natural wines. But I don't know if you feel this way, but it's just kind of a burden sometimes having to choose. There are so many choices. You're thinking about pairings and all this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
of Gen Z influencers and activists and people, anxious kids with takes, to talk particularly about what's happening with young men, but what's happening politically with Gen Z. The reason why I'm doing this, because I don't know if you noticed, I got a lot on my plate. I'm promising you that this is the last one. I'm not adding any other pods this year.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
And with naked wine, you can just put in your favorites or you can put in some things that you like and they can determine some favorites for you. And they'll send you a bunch of bottles. And that makes your life easy. You get to learn. You get to learn about some new varietals, some new grapes. I had some the other day. I was cooking a little pasta for the kiddo, paired it with a red wine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
It was wonderful. So, you know, Naked Wines makes it easy. You can learn about wine, get it delivered right to your door. How do they do it? Naked Wine connects winemakers and wine drinkers directly. Allowing for vineyard to your door delivery at up to 60% off what you'd pay in store.
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Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
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The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
That's $100 off your first six bottles at nakedwines.com slash the bulwark. And use the code and password at the bulwark for six bottles of wine for $39.99. I have a couple more topics. They're not going to get any breezier. We should move to the questions here at home. And I guess it's related to the USAID employees.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
But you shared an article from Larry Diamond over at Hoover about how the crisis of democracy is already here. Obviously, you're reporting from Washington and there is a huge crisis. churn and uncertainty among people that work for the federal government. A lot of these kind of legal questions are up in the air about how protected each of these employees are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Just kind of wondering what you're hearing on this front and your thoughts on these extrajudicial attacks on the federal bureaucracy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
It helps us with the algorithm. It helps more people discover us. Really appreciate that. I'm excited to start these projects and appreciate you all for being along the ride with us. Up next, Susan Glasser. Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I'm delighted to be back today with staff writer at The New Yorker, Susan Glasser.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
It's like a sort of Damocles that's hanging over us, right? Like we just don't know exactly how he's going to handle all that. I think that there's a lot of people discussing this that I see in the democracy space that are acting as if there's going to be this one big showdown, right? That the Supreme Court says no and that... As J.D.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Vance says, he does the apocryphal Andrew Jackson quote and is like, John Roberts, send your army after me. And it's like, that isn't probably how it's going to go, right? It's going to be slow. And they'll pick a few examples where maybe a district court judge gets way out over their skis and they just don't really follow it. And they're like, wait as it goes through the courts, but they still...
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
you know, prevent people from coming to the office or whatever the firing is, prevent people from access to certain, you know, government, you know, to their emails or to, you know, whatever their government business is. And then, you know, who knows, like maybe back down one side, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Like there's a lot of ways this can go where they can sort of slowly undermine the judicial process and try to break everything. you know, before you get to kind of a big stand down. And I think that is something that kind of concerns me that I'm not sure that people have really wrapped their head around.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
She's got her weekly column on life in Washington. She's also the co-author, most recently, of The Divider, A History of Donald Trump in the White House, which she co-wrote with her husband, Peter Baker. And I got to hang out with her son, Theo, in Palm Springs a couple weekends ago. That was just such a delight. He's so great.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
One other specific example in the news, CBS News confirmed that Michelle King, the top Social Security Administration official, was acting commissioner, was replaced in her role. King then chose to resign, according to the White House. This is part of the fight over Elon Musk and Trump. Doge getting access to people's social security data.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Musk was tweeting insanely, as always, about all of the fraudulent social security actions, why he needs this data, because there's a lot of old people. people that are over 100 years old that are still getting social security.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Experts who've actually looked at this, because people have looked at this before, have said that there is some example of social security numbers being abused, but it's usually the opposite of what Musk is saying. It's illegal immigrants that are using dead people's social security numbers and then paying payroll tax, right? You're using the security number to get a job.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
So they're actually paying into social security. So it's probably on net gaining us money rather than costing us money, but that's neither here nor there. I want to play for you the press secretary, Carolyn, and her comments last night on Hannity about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
First time I was at real life. That just feels like it's from a movie. Tens of millions of people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
There are only 70 million people on Social Security. I think that one in three of them are actually deceased. And it's part of a fraud. And the whole thing is just, it's farcical. But I'm wondering your thoughts on that and the Elon kind of activities more broadly. Yeah. If you haven't.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The problem with that is that doesn't really work this time. Like my guess is if ABC, NBC, CBS said that they were going to boycott over AP, Carolyn Lovell would be like, peace out, you know? So I don't exactly know what they're supposed to do. Do you have any thoughts about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Yeah. I mean, he was just such a delight to be around. Good hang, you know, annoyingly smart, you know. I'm looking for flaws. I didn't find any in Palm Springs. I'm sure some would emerge with a longer time. You know, we can't all be perfect.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Totally agree. I'm glad that wasn't on my list. So this is why I needed your passion on this one. Because there is this parade of horrors. I said this at the beginning of the year. I was like, one thing that I want to do on the podcast is just focus on things that I feel genuinely passionate about and that I want people to know about and have guests on that do the same.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Because there is so much... We could just, I guess, run a 24-hour running podcast to just live post the Parade of Horribles. Maybe we could do that. But you know what I mean? It's hard to sort of determine what is important. And I think that your perspective, having been there in the press corps, is important on this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Because I can understand why people might look at this and be like, okay, well, whatever. I mean, NBC's still in there, so that's fine. But it is... It is a very dangerous place that we're going if you're starting to ban people over not using the correct truth speak, the patriot speak that they're demanding.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
I don't actually. I do real talk. You can tell when I'm fake flattering, I promise.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Amen. All right. Last thing in the laugh or cry portion, as you alluded to earlier. You're maybe partially at fault for the purchase of Greenland. I don't know. But the idea of buying Greenland initially came to Trump from Ron Lauder. That was first reported. So I guess it's Ron Lauder. But that was first reported in your book that we mentioned earlier, The Divider. And so...
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
You're doing this Donald Trump historian stuff where all these crazy examples, like the thing you mentioned with Tillerson earlier, it's sort of hard to know what then blossoms and becomes something bigger in the future. That's why it's important to document all this stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
So I'm curious if you had any other color from those early conversations with our cosmetic oligarch that has decided that he wants to purchase another country because he's pals with Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Okay. We've got to talk, I think, mostly today about the ongoing negotiations, if you want to call them negotiations, surrender between the United States and Russia that's happening in Saudi Arabia. As we speak, we have some developments this morning. It's possible some new stuff will We'll come up here in the hours between now and when it publishes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
But just before we get into what's happening today, just for folks' background, you spent four years as Washington Post's bureau chief in Moscow. Your most recent article was about – your most recent column, rather, was about how – You know, Trump has basically been giving away the store to Putin over the first, then it was 24 days. It's been about another week since then.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Well, some tragically relevant reporting from you, but thank you. Do we know, is Ron Lauder doing the Trump makeup too? Is he a key player in the different tone? Because he's been darkening his makeup lately.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
He does. All right. Well, one more note on this from producer Katie. She wants me to know that there's a new detail here. In June, United will be running direct flights from Newark to Nuuk, Greenland, home to a new international airport. So I don't know, maybe United and Ron Lauder, everybody's in on it. Who knows what could be happening in Nuuk? We'll have to keep our eye on it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Susan Glasser, I appreciate you very much. Thanks for coming back on the pod.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
I might have to. What else am I going to do? All right. Thanks to Susan Glasser. Everybody else, we will be back, not for 24 hours, but in 24 hours tomorrow for another edition of the Borg Podcast. We'll see you all then.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
So just kind of talk about your perspective, having been in Moscow, and then kind of the biggest picture of what you're seeing here. Then we'll kind of get into the details.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
But for 2025, I thought one area where I could potentially add some value both to my own growth, but also to the discourse, quote unquote, was by talking to and about these young men and also listening to them. Because, you know, we saw this happening, right? It's not as if we were totally blindsided by the move towards Trump among younger men.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
I do wonder sometimes whether those types of Republicans like gaslighting themselves or us or both. You know, I was in a debate, if you call it that, with Dan Crenshaw before the election.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
And this was the message that he was saying on that, you know, that I was delusional, that if you just actually look at the record from the first term, maybe you didn't like Trump's tweets, but he actually was very strong on that. you know, countering Russia and much stronger than Biden even.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
And he was making the pitch as if Trump was going to get in there and, you know, send some nice tweets to Putin, but that the policy would all be, you know, something out of whatever, the Reagan administration. And that was just so obviously delusional at the time. I guess it doesn't really matter whether they're deluding themselves or not, but it is, that is a true observation, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Like when you were around, you know, you're doing this, the circuit around Washington, many people thought that it was possible that that was what was going to happen rather than that he was going to do exactly what he told us he was going to do.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
Just tell me a little bit more about that. I mean, obviously, I guess you were having conversations with those folks from Europe. I mean, how are they kind of processing all of this? Is it going to be total submission to whatever Trump and Putin decide? Is there European resistance to this emerging?
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
I mean, obviously, there's going to be long-term ramifications about Europe no longer feeling like they can trust us or to be part of their security blanket. But what about the short term?
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
But I think the degree to which it happened was incredible. I think pretty shocking to everybody. And, you know, as a millennial who has a seven-year-old, like I don't have a ton of Gen Zs in my life, right? I don't have a ton of Zoomers in my life. I thought it'd be valuable for me over the course of this year to both go into other platforms that are more populated by 20-somethings than this one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
It is. Let's talk about this. Obviously, this is a developing story. I'm just going to read a couple of the reports about what the contours of the deal, so to speak, are. I hate even calling it that. Fox this morning says the plan includes a ceasefire and then forcing elections in Ukraine before signing a final agreement. The notion there, I think, is that Putin thinks that
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
that an election would yield a leader that is more amenable to him than Zelensky. You wrote about some of this in the New Yorker Telegraph, wrote about this, which is the Trump demand that part of the deal includes 500 billion in payback from Ukraine, including the critical minerals, rare earth minerals, but also other stuff. And that maybe that would include some kind of security guarantee.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
And then what you just mentioned there is the FT was reporting European officials think Trump, this part of the deal could move troops out of the Baltics, which is something that obviously the Europeans would be concerned about. So that's just kind of developing, but just wondering your thoughts on kind of all those contours of what they're discussing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Susan Glasser: Giving Away the Store to Putin
So we appreciate people of all ages listening to this podcast. But also by hosting some 20-somethings on the platform that we've created here. So I'm pumped that Cameron's going to do it with me. He's so funny. And he has a huge network from his time at March for Our Lives. So we're going to bring in a bunch of different people. It won't just be young guys. It'll also be some young women.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
you know woke tim would say this is what the woke folks would say about this which is that poster was always bullshit and chris rock did kind of a bit on saturday night live this weekend about how like oh donald trump is going to you know the dignity of the office will be sullied an office held by multiple rapists and people who people who put their hand on the bible while their slaves like was pregnant with their baby you know and it's like
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
There's something to be said for that, right? Is it like, is actually, is it just like our naivete? Here's woke Tim. Is it our white privilege naivete that has just been, that has just been cracked? And like, we believed some stupid myths and it's time for us just to be a little more hard headed. Is that possible?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
So we're going to keep that in there because I think the conversation is informative around that question. But the good news is Moskowitz is not going anywhere. The Democrats are not going to lose a seat in the House of Representatives. All right. Up next, our friend Tom Nichols. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I've been having fun in the green room.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Some myth-making is good, is what you're saying. Of course it is. Calling us to our higher selves and building up the best parts of the country rather than obsessing over all the flaws, rather than reveling in the flaws and saying that the flaws are the good parts. That is a negative change.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
With a focus on conversation, you'll be ready to talk, wherever you go you all know me i'm saying i'm staying i'm not running from this asshole but um it's nice to imagine running it's nice to imagine you know a new life in punta del este or sao paulo
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And, you know, one way to make those daydreams something practical and useful is to just start learning a new language just in case you decide to pull the plug. And Babbel is a great way to do that, because if you end up just going on a vacation, which I plan on doing at minimum next summer, or, you know. Things get really serious and you decide it's time to become an expat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But before we get to the guest, we're in the final stretch between Christmas or Hanukkah or whatever you're celebrating this year. Trump is going to be president again, so we're saying Merry Christmas again. So if you want to be a Bulwark member and you haven't yet, you can go to thebulwark.com slash subscribe. That can be a Christmas present to yourself or to a loved one. Come on, join.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
You'll already have a good base from the practice and the work that you've done learning conversations using Babbel. With over 16 million subscriptions sold, Babbel's 14 award-winning language courses are backed by a 20-day money-back guarantee. So your gift to yourself or your loved one is risk-free. This holiday season, give the gift of language with Babbel.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Here's a special holiday deal for our listeners. Right now, get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash bulwark. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash bulwark. Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash bulwark. Rules and restrictions may apply. I can't follow up on your request that we get out of the darkness because there's only darkness in the news.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But maybe we can get out of the deep well of darkness into a shallower pond. There was a news item yesterday that didn't get a ton of attention. I'm interested in your reaction to it because I had a pretty strong reaction to it. Jared Moskowitz, a Democratic congressman who I've had on this podcast, I think is a good congressman who is a very tough guy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
In the oversight hearings and the bullshit oversight hearings that James Comer was doing, Moskowitz, I think, was the most savvy and kind of pushing back and exposing how BS these investigations into Biden were. He was the director of, I forget what they called in Florida, but emergency management, essentially, that might be the right title in Florida.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And he's friends with Matt Gaetz, which maybe raises a red flag. And I'm assuming that is what is underlining this. But he's been floated as the head of FEMA under Trump. And so you have these competing questions in a situation like this. It's a Democratic congressman that is in a swing. It's a Dem district, but it's a swingish district.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
So if you were to leave that to run FEMA, on the one hand, it's like, okay, this is an important role. And it's nice to have somebody that knows what they're fucking doing in this role, you know, if the big one comes or when the big one comes, you know, as far as earthquakes or hurricanes, whatever, the next four years. On the other hand, the Republicans have a very narrow House majority.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
If he leaves, DeSantis could keep that seat open for a while, give Mike Johnson some more breathing room. They could have a special election where a Republican takes that seat. That's very possible. It's not a safe seat. And the Machiavellian view of this, that the Democrats are going to play hardball, is it's insane for the Democrats to give up a seat in Congress to go do this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And we shouldn't assume that Donald Trump will pick Trump. a weekend talk show host to head FEMA. So like we should live in a world where you'd assume that the other party would pick somebody else that knows what they're doing when it comes to emergency management. And if not, let them, you know, wallow in their own incompetence. I'm curious where Tom Nichols falls on that question.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
We need to be together because out there in the rest of the world, it's scary and dark and bad. And so, you know, we might as well be dealing with that, processing it. You know my favorite word, processing all that together over this holiday season. Go to theblork.com slash subscribe. Today, of course, my guest is Professor Emeritus of the Naval War College. He's a staff writer at The Atlantic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
To me, this is the fundamental truism of Trump, right? Which is that the people who get involved because they think that they are going to be able to clean him up
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
are only made dirty by him right like he doesn't get clean they just get dirty like that's what happened like that is that's it like that's happened every single time there's like no counter exception and that i'll be allowed to do my job and do good things for america and my you know innate merit and talent will see me through and i won't get caught up in all this other horrible
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Yeah. You know, I mean, it's not like you become Deborah Birx. Yes. You become Deborah Birx. You go and you become Deborah Birx, who by all accounts is a serious person that just got totally sullied and her reputation ruined. Well, you know, while she tried to nudge Donald Trump to do better.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
He's the author of The Atlantic Daily Newsletter. His books include The Death of Expertise. Dropping on Christmas Eve is an audiobook rendition read by Tom himself. It is Tom Nichols. He just blew his nose in the green room. I don't know if that's happening on the audiobook, too, if people are just getting old man sounds. And what do you do? Do you freelance?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
We've been spending a lot of time on these tech oligarchs because I think, frankly, it's a related to Trump story. But just even distinct from Trump, it is, I think, the biggest story of the next four years. What is happening with these tech oligarchs as they try to centralize power and control over all of our lives?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I've been talking about this a little bit with Ann Applebaum on Friday and with others. But there was one little anecdote that I missed that was in the Atlantic Daily newsletter that I want to get your reaction to. It was first reported by Brian Schwartz and Dana Mattioli over at the Wall Street Journal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
The day before Thanksgiving at Mar-a-Lago, Mark Zuckerberg stood hand over heart as they played a rendition of the national anthem sung by January 6th prisoners. Yeah. That's where we're at. That's where we're at.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Zuck, who in 2017 was doing this apology tour where he went around the country listening to people and trying to understand where he had gone wrong and how Trump had taken over the country. And I'm trying to be an earnest... You know, I'm this earnest business leader who cares about you. No, no, no, no. This time I'm going to fly down to Mar-a-Lago. I'm going to suckle on Trump's toes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I'm going to put my hand over my heart as people that stormed the Capitol sing a rendition of the national anthem.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Do you do the Trump thing where you read the words on the page and then you vamp a little bit or what? Yeah, I stop every other paragraph and I go, so true, so true. So true. Great point, Tom. That is a good point, Tom. All right, Tom Nichols, I hear you're in Europe. You're in Europe, Prague, Brussels. What's the view from our European allies?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Have you seen Zuck's new outfit? He's got he's had a little makeover. Good, actually. But, you know, I mean, it speaks to the insecurities you're talking about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
The other example of this is Mark Andreessen. And I'm kind of obsessed with him right now because everybody's focused on Musk because he's so public about everything. And Zuckerberg because he's so famous. And Bezos. And, you know, Zuckerberg and Bezos have bent the knee. And Musk is, you know, the most powerful person. oligarch in the history of the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I mean, like certainly in the post-World War II era. I mean, if you go back to the robber baron era, there's a good analogy of somebody. I'm going to take issue with that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Let's take issue with that. I'm not sure. I want to wait to get to Andrew's. Go ahead. Let's talk about Musk.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
It's a fair caveat. Maybe powerful is the wrong word. I guess I'd say this. He's the country's biggest government contractor. And he also lives in the president-elect's bedroom, apparently, at his house. And so maybe powerful, but his influence, at least in this very moment, is not akin to anything that we've seen in a long time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And so I think that he deserves a lot of attention and sacks, as you mentioned, because of his podcast gets a lot of attention.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
learn more once the foreign policy starts to come into focus in the next administration. But I mean, he was very influential in choosing the VP. So here's the thing about Andreessen, though. is he's almost as rich as all these other guys, right? He runs the most powerful, I think, I keep throwing that around, but one of the most influential, one of the top VC firms in the Valley.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
He's on the board of Facebook. And he's very interested in AI and crypto. And I look at these two issues and like, what do these guys want, right? As I think you point out, a lot of them want attention. A lot of them are boys who were not popular in high school and have now got all this power and think they know everything and want attention. That's definitely part of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But they also are businessmen. They also want something financially. And Musk has a ton of interest. But the two main issues are AI and crypto and TikTok, which we've seen now Trump started to back off of. They were not happy with the regulatory regime around these products and these verticals.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And Andreessen, who has been going down to Mar-a-Lago, has apparently been interviewing people that are going to be regulating companies that he invests in. He explained to Barry Weiss why he ended up going all in for Trump. And it was around AI. And I want to listen to this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Wow. Okay. So there are two points here to tell your reaction to. One is he reveals that this is what he cares about. He doesn't want AI to be regulated in any way. And I think that is important in telling. Two, this conversation is obviously a lie, though. I'm sure he's unhappy with the Biden administration's policies towards AI.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But the notion that somebody in the Biden administration told them not to do AI startups and that they were going to classify big portions of AI like it was nukes. It was the Cold War. This doesn't feel like a real conversation, but what are your thoughts? Two thoughts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Usually as an interviewer, I'm learning how to be an interviewer. I'm relatively new to this. But if somebody tells you a story and your reaction to that is, wow, that seems crazy. Generally, maybe, I don't know, you follow up and try to get a little more. Who was this person that told you that? Was it Joe Biden himself? Was it Tony Blinken? Who was like, we're going to classify?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And is that how Cold War classification worked?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
You know, there's news in Romania. You know, there's coups in South Korea. There's stuff happening out there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Yeah, the respect that he deserves. The president should call me and should ask me about my expertise on anything that is all related to the technology sphere because I'm so successful. Or even unrelated. Or even unrelated.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I mean, that is a really... He's right about that, and it's important for the impact on all of our lives, for impact on policy, and for the Democrats' political layout, I think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Yeah, it goes against the ethos of what the contrarian Rogan bros like. And eventually these nerds are going to bite off more than they can chew, I think. If there's somebody you haven't bought a Christmas gift for here on December 17th, it might be because you're a procrastinator or it might be because they're kind of hard to shop for.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Luckily, there's one gift that everyone on your list is sure to enjoy, an Aura digital picture frame. Named number one by Wirecutter, Aura frames make it incredibly easy to share unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
When you give the Aura frame as a gift, you can personalize and preload it with a thoughtful message and photos using the Aura app, making it an ideal present for long-distance loved ones. It's a gift so special, they'll use it every day. The good people at Aura have been giving me, you know, some extra gifts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
aura carver matt digital frames so we've been handing them out and the fun part is you can give the same gift to your friend and to your aunt but have it be totally different have it be totally personalized the aunt is going to get pictures of my daughter and the family seeing what's happening out there you know now they can have a view into our life here in new orleans the friend
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
You can send them old, funny, drunk pictures from college. And it's like a whole different type of experience. It's a gift that works for everybody. So, save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames by using promo code BULLWORK at checkout. That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com, promo code BULLWORK.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. You mentioned the Assad defenestration, the overthrow of Assad and how you saw that from Europe. I do need to mention, I had referenced, I forget if it was with Bill or with Anne, the video of Clarissa Ward. And there was a man who was released by rebels from a Damascus jail.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And we talked about that and just how amazing that scene was. It turns out that that was a whiff and that the person that was imprisoned was not actually imprisoned. He was a intelligence officer for Assad that had tricked CNN. So Chris Ward's an amazing journalist, but CNN had to correct this kind of embarrassingly. Since I mentioned it on the pod the other day, I wanted to also mention that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But regardless of that specific incident, these images of people being released from these prisons are moving, the real ones. And so I'm curious if you have just any other big picture thoughts on what's happening there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
More onions on my belt, as was the style at the time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
It is really unfortunate. All right. I feel an obligation to mention because we have all these school shootings happen so often that it's like, what do you even say anymore? There's not much to say. There's not much to talk about it. But there was a student and a teacher killed at Abundant Life Christian School in Madison, Wisconsin yesterday by a 15-year-old girl.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
A second grader called in the shooting, which tells you something about American life. The one thing I do want to mention about this, we don't need to go round and round on all the views around guns and just how irresponsible everyone has been on this issue over the course of decades now. But this young girl wrote about some Turkish neo-Nazis that she was reading online.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I'm sorry to be like a flip about this because it is just another horrific tragedy. And these people have died. But I don't know, man. I mean, like that is really dystopian. So I don't know if you have any thoughts on that before we can end people on a higher note. But I thought it was worth mentioning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Speaking of Andreessen, you know, I was like, I was this person on social media, you know, in my 20s, like teaching people how to get on to fucking MySpace and Twitter and stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
No, it's not. That's not counterintuitive. That's fine. I agree with that. And people should go do that. And, you know, you should get involved with other young people. You know, one of the most fulfilling things that I had done was done various mentorship programs. And frankly, I fell down on that a little bit during 2024. But, you know, going to work with kids, doing homework with them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
It's fulfilling for you. It's good for them. Teens need to have encounters with other humans that are constructive and that are filled with demonstrations that people care about them. And I do think that makes a difference and people should look into that. That'd be a good New Year's resolution for everybody in 2025. Let's end with, I have to dunk on you. You're so proud of yourself.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
You posted on the blue sky. You skied a Christmas playlist. And I got to tell you. I have put together over two decades. I've curated the ultimate Christmas playlist, the best playlist that exists on planet Earth. We'll put it in the show notes. We'll compare it to your sad limp playlist.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I have gone through all of the renditions of Joy to the World and just pulled out the best ones of everything, of O Come All Ye Faithful. We have everything from Nat King Cole to
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
all the way up to suffion stevens we have random songs that just mention christmas in the middle that aren't christmas songs it's everything it includes no crap no fucking no paul mccartney wonderful christmas time bullshit all right it's only bangers all right and so i put that together i want you to be able to do things that are fulfilling for you in your life so i'm happy that you're kind of just starting one of your own but i just i want to kind of set a higher bar for you
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
You know, let's just defeat kind of right. It's like this acceptance. Like this is I guess this is just who you Yankees are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I don't have any Andy Williams, so this will be a challenge. Oh, my God. Look at mine. I will peruse your Andy Williams, and we'll take it from there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I mean, the fact that that person exists, yes. Like, what does he look like? Oh, my God. Any fun facts about him?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Why don't we end on an agreement? All right, there we are. That's at the top of my list. The Waitress's Christmas Wrapping is so wonderful. That will wrap up the show. We'll take it out with the Waitress's Christmas Wrapping. And Jason, if you can throw in just David Bowie wishing everyone a Christmas 1984, that would be nice as well. And Tom Nichols, we can say Merry Christmas again.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
So Merry Christmas to you. Thank God. I will see you in the new year. As Freddie Mercury would say, thank God it's Christmas. Thank God it's Christmas. That's Tom Nichols. We'll see him in 2025. We'll be back here tomorrow with a serious discussion and a serious guest, as is needed in these serious times. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Well, last time we talked, it was two days after the election. I went and I was really listening to it in the shower this morning. I like to have Tom Nichols in my ear in the shower. And that's evocative. Thank you. And we were pretty defeated in that conversation and resigned. And I'm just curious, like, you've never had a vacation since then.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Since then, we've had Matt Gaetz nominated and then withdrawn as attorney general, Pete Agseth, Tulsi, RFK. All this has happened. The folding of the oligarchs, you know, to Donald Trump, the acquiescence. I'm just wondering how you assess the state of affairs right now versus how you did. on election night?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Hey everybody, it's Tim. During this podcast, me and Tom Nichols discuss speculation that Congressman Jared Moskowitz, a Democrat from Florida, was going to be named the FEMA director in the Trump administration since we taped... Moskowitz tweeted that he is not going to be interested in that job and that he'll be running for reelection as a Democrat in Florida, something that I commend him for.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
is gone you know fired by tweet at some point down the line yeah they're on a one-day contract i've been listening to that answer i want to get a little heavier with you for a second because there's this micro to despair not to despair question of should we hope that trump can be stopped and that his nominees can be stopped and are there things that we can do to minimize the damage and to win in the midterms and can the democrats win again in the future
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And I think both of us are on the side of like, yes, like things can be done. This is bad, but we must not descend in denialism. We must maintain, you know, the, the knowledge that we can fight, that we can recover. So I agree with you on that. I do wonder about this though, is that some of the people who are despairing, is it related to your Europe trip?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And that the thing that they're despairing is that even if, He does fail, even if he does bumble, which we all expect. And even if the Democrats do win in the midterms, and even if the Democrats do win in 2028, like something fundamentally has now been broken that is unfixable. And that is what is underlying people's nihilism, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
That like the things that they cared about, the things that they thought that America was, it has been revealed that it is not those things and that it's not worth caring about these, you know, whatever it is, the traditions, the norms, the, you know, the majesty of American democracy, like that we've gone behind the curtain and the wizard is not there and it's Donald Trump, you know?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
That's beneath all these things that we have venerated. And that is what is leading people to despair, actually. And that, you know, well, maybe we can win some battles in the micro. In the macro, this thing is permanently fucked.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I want to leave that exchange, though, in the podcast, because I do think it speaks to some real fundamental questions about how this. Democrats and how the handful of anti-Trump Republicans that exist, how they should deal with this administration and kind of the ethics of that and the strategic thinking around, you know, how to engage with the Trump administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I definitely have some neighbors that voted for David Dick saying that I'm in Louisiana. So that's an absolute comparison for me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Just let that go. We're going down a rabbit hole. I didn't mean to go. We're going to get to the news, I promise. People who tune into this daily podcast for the news, we'll get there. This is what...
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Hey, y'all, so much happening today. So here's some programming notes. We are taping today's pod on Tuesday morning as the Pete Hegseth confirmation hearing is beginning. I just saw Joni Ernst's kind of lukewarm questioning of the SecDef nominee. The board's live on YouTube all day covering this hearing. Right now, as we speak, Sarah Longwell and Will Salatin are on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Maybe the owner of the LA Times should have been reading his own paper before posting about the supposed budget cuts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
That's one of the ones that gets me. This is where my complaints about the Democrats come in. Because I was reading a lot about the Santa Ynez Reservoir situation before we came on. I don't want to postulate like an expert, but it was empty since February.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
You know, and it's like a lot of times I see there's this trend of Democrats saying that using rhetoric that's catastrophic, but then their actions are extremely bureaucratic and limited, you know, and it's like, if so, like, if.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I appreciated your beautiful toast to my wedding. We'll do a little personal talk here. I want to talk a little bit about the fires, and then we'll get into the politics of that. We'll get into a little bit of what's happening on Capitol Hill. I said in the intro that this Hegseth hearing is happening right now as we spoke.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
you believe that because of climate change, like the risks to Los Angeles are higher than ever, like these preexisting risks about the Santa Ana winds are greater than ever because it's been dry, then you would think that you would have a sense of urgency to cut through certain bureaucratic hoops to ensure that like reservoirs are full, for example, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And I think like that is where some of the frustration comes in from like even within the Democratic coalition.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
We've gotten to see maybe an hour of it, so maybe we'll just talk about some initial impressions. But first, as I mentioned, you're in Venice. We've got multiple mutuals who've lost their houses. We've got mutuals who are out there delivering supplies to firefighters. Shout out to our boy Ian and his crew. You know, I mean, it's ugly. The winds kept getting worse yesterday afternoon.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I'll deputize this. I went past our current mayor. She's been spending a lot of time in Paris. But yeah, no, I hear you. To me, what this reminds me of actually is McCain, like the McCain and the economic crisis, right? Like how you lose the confidence, right? Where he said, oh, I'm going to suspend my campaign to have a meeting to like, how, what are we going to do about this economic collapse?
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And then he went to the meeting and didn't like actually do anything. Right. And then people are like, wait a minute.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
So before we get into kind of some rank punditry about the mayor, I just am curious, like from on the ground, your sense of the scale of the devastation and kind of how you're feeling about everything.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Your wife said she wasn't ready to pin it on any specific politician, and we shouldn't pin it on specific politicians until we know the facts. The Speaker of the House has a different point of view. He was in the hallway yesterday. Your old colleague from back when you were on CNN, Manu Raju, was asking him about whether aid to L.A. should be conditioned because of alleged mismanagement.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Let's hear what Mike Johnson had to say.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
So, Mike Johnson wants to condition aid to California on, I don't know, some reforms in brush management and maybe extend the debt limit throughout the Trump presidency so that they can pressure some Democrats into going along with the gambit to avoid running up against the debt limit. What do you think people in LA think about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I think they fall back on this, oh, blue state mismanagement, blue city mismanagement. That's the thing that frustrates me, too. It's just such BS about all this. Look, there's mismanagement. We can talk about all this. Liz Weil, if people missed that. on the pod last week. She's awesome. She's been covering this forever in California. You know, forest mismanagement.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
A lot of that's federal, by the way. A lot of the forests in California, they're being mismanaged.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Well, and I guess the parts that hit Katrina the worst were the poorest, were the lowest income areas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
It's also not about deregulation. There are plenty of things about deregulation. It's not about that in this case. And a lot of this is like the federal forests were under the Trump Department of Interior four years ago. It's just like a lot of this stuff is not even California land. You're talking about people's individual properties.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
But a lot of these other fires, these issues are in federal land. Anyway, so there's that. There's also just the obvious like the red state You know what I mean? This is just such a slippery slope, man. We've got these pumps out my window that aren't working right now here in New Orleans. And that's something that people are concerned about here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
If there's another hurricane, be insane for whoever's the president AOC in 2032 or whatever to be like, Jeff Landry, I'm not going to give you money because you didn't take climate change seriously enough. The whole thing is just... It's gross. And Mike Johnson is a pathetic little twerp.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Okay, at this point, everybody knows about my neighborhood camp, Aretha. I was out at the commissary here in New Orleans. If you ever visit New Orleans, they do a great job down at commissary. It's a little market. It has a lot of Louisiana food. And one of the employees there, he's a Bulwark fan, was checking in on the cat. Was checking in on Aretha because they listen to the ads.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
So we appreciate all of you. And I want to tell everybody the cat is doing great. Aretha was very excited when we came home. from holiday break, and we fetter the food from our newest sponsor, Smalls. This podcast is sponsored by Smalls. Smalls cat food is protein-packed recipes made with preservative-free ingredients you find in your fridge, and it's delivered right to your door.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
That's why cats.com named Smalls their best overall cat food. To get 50% off your first order plus free shipping, head to smalls.com and use our promo code THEBULLWORK. Here's one review from a Smalls customer. Jennifer M. said, after every feeding, my cat gets his burst of energy and starts running around the house and his fur is softer and more vibrant with a higher contrast.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
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Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
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The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
But you have to use my code THEBULLWORK for 50% off your first order. One last time, that's promo code THEBULLWORK for 50% off your first order plus free shipping. one last rank political thing about this. Then I want to do a social media stuff. Gavin, you know, I mean, Gavin wants to be the 2028 guy and there are things about Gavin that I like actually.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Um, I think that he's a pretty deft communicator, which is pretty important in this time for Democrats. I think that a lot of times he has his finger on the pulse of stuff that other Democrats don't as far as like speaking particularly in how to speak to kind of Republicans. That said, uh, He's got so much baggage, man. Like the baggage from all this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Like I saw him getting interviewed by an MS and you know, they're like, you guys got the Olympics coming, the Superbowl coming, the world cup coming to LA and Gavin's out there going, we're going to have a Marshall plan for Los Angeles. And I was watching this. I'm going, well, He's good at that, right? I have this big plan and I have a big message, a big optimistic message.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And that's all important in politics, being able to project positivity and project optimism and communicate and be a leader. All that's important. But are they actually going to be able to do it? I just think this is another kind of straw on the back of, you know, don't California my Ohio or don't California my Michigan if he were to decide to make a run in four years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Sam Stein and I are going to be on here this afternoon. You can check out an archive of our live stream on YouTube. Plus, for subscribers, we'll have a wrap-up. out on Tuesday evening. Go to thebullock.com slash subscribe. We'll have the team together with a wrap-up of the Pete Hegseth hearings.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I mean, that is why they've just turned to Donald Trump. No, no, I know. But like, it's a very good point, Tim. I'm sorry. I do have to just laugh, but I'm sorry. We're at the bulwark, so we have to do this. It's like the...
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
i hear this is right well everything you're saying is right and they're my complaints about gavin too but it's like i'm i'm upset at elites and i'm set it and i'm upset about incompetence and so what we need to turn to is somebody who is a total chaos agent who is a rich a richie rich man with a gold toilet who's surrounded himself by the by the world's richest billionaires
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
They're going to do it. Them and a Fox News weekend host. I'm concerned about competence in the elites, so we need a weekend TV host and billionaires to save us. I hear it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
It cuts both ways. Tim Walls catching strays. It does catch both ways with Gavin for me. I don't know. I go back and forth on it. We have a couple of things we're going to get to before I lose you. Speaking about all the billionaires around Trump, we have all of the leading social media oligarchs are tossing a salad. Now we've got Zuckerberg is dressing like a St.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Bart's DJ and talking about masculinity and going down to Mar-a-Lago for his pilgrimage. Bezos is giving Melania $40 million for a documentary about her and going to Mar-a-Lago. Elon is obviously Trump's shadow president. You also work for Snapchat. And so I am curious whether there have been any kind of strategic conversations there about ways for Snapchat to ingratiate themselves in for Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I have a couple ideas for you. Maybe citizens' arrests of illegal migrants in Venice by your CEO could be one thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I think he's going to be putting on the Kunta Kunta cloth like Nancy Pelosi. We're pivoting back the other direction. Yeah. This is why the whole thing is. Yeah. I mean, I guess. Sure. The Republican victory was robust in the context of the fact that it was Donald Trump who was indicted four times.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
You know what I mean? Like it wasn't robust in like the 1984 sense. And it was only a couple hundred thousand votes. You know, so it's kind of silly. Like Facebook, one of these like one of the biggest companies of the world with billions of people on your platform. And you're like, well, because of the views of 50,000 people in Green Bay, I'm going to change my entire policy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
You'd want a little more nuance than that, I think. But I've come around to the view that it reveals that Zuck really...
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
he really resented all this stuff he resented that he had to do trust and safety you know he resented that he had to you know care about what government you know bureaucrats wanted why do you have to resent trust and safety though like this is like your business and your platform and like your quote-unquote community which is such a phony ass term because it's such a massive user base but like that's what i'm saying it's all fake it's all fake he didn't want any of that right he
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
wanted people to be able to say the r slur and like do say pussy and like whatever like do you see the guy in the ft who's a banker there's a banker in the ft that was like now i can say retard and pussy again without being canceled it's like It's like, what? You're a rich banker speaking to the FT.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
You have perceived that you are being put upon all this time, that you are a vulnerable, at-risk person. As one of the richest people in the world, Mark Zuckerberg, or as a guy on finance in Wall Street, you've perceived that you are put upon. But when in fact, you just didn't like...
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
criticism i just think like these guys don't like being challenged they don't like criticism and this is not actually him trying to protect his company because i think he's putting himself at risk if the democrats ever get back in i think what this is is him like venting right and saying like oh i can finally be my worst self right now and i i i agree with you but i also think there's something else with zuckerberg which is and again i i would say this in contrast to evan at snap
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
What's the, what's the, I thought he should be running for president for a while. So I contemplated that member. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
We got to do a little tick tock, the band tick tock band supposed to go into effect here in five days. If, uh, ByteDance is not sold to American company or unless the Supreme Court intervenes. Ed Markey, Democratic senator from Massachusetts, has proposed a bill to delay the ban for 280 days. So that doesn't seem like that's going to happen, but that's out there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Some people, as of yesterday or a couple of days ago, are fleeing to a different Chinese run app called Red Note, named after Mao's Little Red Book. I guess the Chinese are pushing people to this other app, and now it's number one. So is Taylor Lorenz. Yeah, Taylor Lorenz has had it over there. I think she tweeted long live China or something.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I guess somebody who really deeply cares about free speech obviously appreciates what's happening over in China. And that is now the number one. This Red Note is the number one most downloaded app on the Apple Store right now. So I want you to assess the state of play. Before you do, I want to play for you a clip of From a TikTok creator who's sharing their thoughts, this is Supi.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
So my thoughts for Soupy, if an app has turned your brain into Tom Yum and you're preparing to overthrow the government to save it, maybe you should reflect on what's influencing you actually. But I think it's important to see what's out there. Soupy is viral. Millions upon millions of views.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
The Gen Z brain-dead TikTok consumer is very unhappy about the government, and they're ready to go red, I think, over this. So I'm wondering for your holistic view on TikTok and the thoughts shared there by Soupy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
But we appreciate you. Here's a better one for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Does the CCP not have First Amendment rights? I don't know how that works. Does Chairman Xi have First Amendment rights? We need to get George Conway.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
because china doesn't want tiktok in their own country sorry it's also banned in india by the way and they smartly banned it many years ago but i was told by taylor learns the chinese cared about free speech and free expression so i found that hard to believe i go yeah i don't know ma'am i hear you i this is the one where this is not this is bad content man bad content creation i have no fucking idea what trump's gonna do about this one i'm i kind of intrigued to watch i have no idea
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
that's what i'm saying like there could be he asked for a 90-day stay so he can figure out a deal he's a deal maker his little lawyer said in the brief trump's a deal he's a known deal maker yeah we'll get mr wonderful to buy it like all the all the rich guys andreason and mr wonderful and peter t on david ball sacks and elon can all pitch in and we'll see yeah
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Okay. Well, we'll have to look into that. There you go. There's Peter Hamby's South Carolina voice. His mean mom is from South Carolina. So, you know, you can yell at him if you don't think he did a good job with it. Do you want to take us out with anything? What are the tunes that have been bringing you solace during the fires out there? Do you have a...
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
You have an album you've been listening to? Something you can take the listeners out with today?
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And the one way in which it is Katrina asker, I think the comparison, at least based on what I've been hearing from people on the ground is that just, there are just these vast swaths, like in the Palisades that are just gone. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I had somebody ask me to create a distraction playlist. I can't do it. I'm not feeling inspired. You know, my creative juices are not being moved by the inauguration. And so I don't think that I can... I can do an inauguration playlist. So, I don't know. We've been listening to a little Remy Wolf. And, you know, I've been listening to a little. I've been going back on this old Alex Chilton.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
You'll find this Alex Chilton. You know that song, Boogie Shoes? It was in Boogie Nights. Yeah. Alex Chilton. I found out he lived in New Orleans after the band was Big Star. And he lived in the Marigny or the Bywater, I forget, in like a dilapidated house after Big Star kind of fizzled. And he wasn't making any money anymore. And I was reading an article about him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
So this has me listening to some old Alex Chilton. So maybe some L'Imperatrice. I might go see L'Imperatrice on Sunday. So I've got them back in the rotation. They're good. Bad Bunny record. Anyway, but everybody, we're going to give them what you want. Fontaine's DC. We're going to play some Fontaine's DC for the people. I will say this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And I, you know, I mean, I just think that the scale of that, you know, it's something that's kind of hard for people to wrap their heads around and from like North Santa Monica up to PCH, like this, like the most, maybe the most beautiful urban section of the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
All right. I appreciate it. I like it when you share feelings, Peter. Well, Fontaine's DC might be a little hardcore for people. So the hardcore listeners among us can go find that on their Spotify or Apple Music app. And for everybody else, we'll send you out with some Clio. So we'll be back here tomorrow. As I mentioned in the intro, huge show tomorrow. All Hegseth all the time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And a little bit of the Jack Smith report once we've had a chance to dig deeper into that. So make sure to come on back here. And if you just are dying, if you can't wait till Wednesday's podcast, for Hegseth analysis, you can go to the bulwark.com slash subscribe. And we will have a Tuesday night recap on our sub stack with me and Sarah and Sam Stein and the gang.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
So you can check it out then everybody else. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Peter, hang in there in LA to all our other pals in LA. Hang in there. We appreciate you. We appreciate you, Ian, and our other bells are out there. Doing the work. Thank you, Ian.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
We have lots of friends out here. Our pals out there in LA. We appreciate everybody. Thanks for sticking around for the show. Hamby, we'll talk to you soon. Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
We also have the Jack Smith report out this morning, which I'm going to touch on with my guest a little bit today. But for the Wednesday pod, we have a favorite on who is perfect for a deep dive on both Hegseth and Smith. So keep an eye out for that today. We're going to focus more on what's happening with the fires and TikTok. So up next, my pal Peter Hampton.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
All right. So that's before we get to the Caruso and the Bass of it, I just, at the biggest level, I want to do a little kind of blame game stuff. Cause this is like always like what happens immediately on social media. And I think that like pretending that it's not happening is wrong. Because humans are humans, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And when something like this happens, they're going to want to look for somebody to blame, right? And so acting like, well, let's talk about this in three months, I think is silly. At the same time, we got to cut through the clutter. I wrote down a little bit of who people might blame here. Joan Didion would blame the Santa Anas. Democrats are saying this is all a climate change story.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Republicans are blaming just blue state incompetence. I had one of the newest Trump advisors, Mark Andreessen, one of the richest VCs in the country. I saw him on Twitter. He saw a story about Rory Sykes. who people might remember as a former child actor who was born blind and with cerebral palsy. He died in the fire. Marc Andreessen quote tweeted that with, this is the fault of specific people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
You kind of wrote about this in the context of Bass, but like the biggest picture, how people in California right now are adjudicating this blame game question.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And nobody ever blames her. She got lost in the crossfire of Nagin and Bush. He's like, I was governor of Florida. And he said, I was calling her, being like, I want to send people to help, like our National Guard and stuff. She wasn't returning calls. Anyway, there always is kind of the finger-pointing element. And some of it, it gets political.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Today, we've got a favorite content man of mine. He's a partner at Puck News, host of Snapchat's Good Luck America, and he lives in a Venice, California home once owned by a cast member of the TV sitcom Wings. He has a new piece out in Puck. The blood is in the water for Karen Bass. It's Peter Hamby. What's up, Hamby?
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
So you wrote about this for people can read the full piece. But I like what are the specific Karen Bass complaints? Like if we're just going to try to cut through the BS and like the VC posturing and like the DEI is D.I.E. like bullshit, you know, and I try to figure out what what are some actual things like one thing that comes up is that she's in Ghana.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And like there's a back and forth on this, right, is like when she left for Ghana, was it clear that that this could be extremely bad? And it seems like kind of, yes. And I noticed Gavin Newsom sort of ducked this question when he was asked about it on Pod Save America. Do you have a sense for that? Like when when she decided to leave Ghana? Were the red flags already here?
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Were the red sirens blaring enough that it was like you should have thought, oh, I don't know, maybe I should stick around and see how this goes? Or is that unfair?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Okay. You see RFK uncomfortably kind of laughing there. I think RFK would probably be on the side of paper straws. He's not sure exactly where he is on the culture wars here. And also in the interview, the waiter, the poor waiter brings RFK a free shake. It is called steak and shake. And RFK freaks out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And like I had like a moment where he stares at the camera like it's like one of the TV shows with the confessional. And he's like, I didn't order this. I didn't order this. He stares right at the lens. It was very it's a very uncomfortable moment. But talk to us about the steak and shake affair and what's been happening with the beef tallow.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And I say this to people, you know, who are not of this world, which include, you know, kind of my normie former Republican friends, as well as like liberals and progressives. I'm like, I know these people. And it gives me a different perspective on what we have to come. I guess I won't jaundice you by telling you what I think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Is olive oil in the hateful eight or is that on the good side?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
It doesn't seem like RFK really cares. He's just happy that he's been verbed. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Maybe they'll send the inspectors. We fired most of HHS. I don't know if they've got any staff yet. They can reapportion some of the people that were supposed to be doing research on infectious disease and have them go to random steak and shakes to test whether any of the hateful eight oils. I pulled them up just for people who are concerned. Soybean oil, corn oil, canola, sunflower, cottonseed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
safflower, grapeseed, or rice bran. Boy, I'm sure some of our soybean farmers will probably be unhappy to learn that they're part of the hateful eight.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Huh. Do you sense... Like any when you're following these because my influencers is one area that I've not really delved into. Do you think that there is going to be an awakening moment where they realize that like the other the people that they have now aligned with actually don't care about them at all?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
The fact that you have just entrenched yourselves in these fever swamps, does that make you more alarmed, more concerned, more feeling like it's going to just be a clown show? How does your perspective inform what you think is ahead here?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And also during the interview, Hannity orders a Coke. And then, like, he kind of apologizes to RFK for it. And he's like, ooh, this guy might get mad at me. He's like, I won't drink the whole thing. And it's just like, this is very, very opposite to the fact that Fox Primetime, like...
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Paid their bills on anti-nanny state thing, like making fun of the nanny state was was like the bread and butter of Fox for a while. And like here you have like the signature Fox host, like literally apologizing to the nanny sitting across the table from him for ordering a Coke. I just don't know how long that marriage is going to last.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
I want to get into Pam Bondi drama because we haven't talked about it at all on the pod. Bondi, you might think that some of the things that people would be concerned about is the fact that she's basically said that we're not investigating foreign interference in elections anymore. We're not investigating a lot of different white-collar crimes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
It's going to be a really golden age for white-collar criminals right now, and that the controversy might circle around that from the working man. But instead, people are mad at her because she has not fully publicized her the documents around a couple of key conspiracies that they have. The Seth Rich conspiracy and the Epstein thing. We'll get into the Epstein binders.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
She did kind of a half job on that. But what's the deal with the Seth Rich thing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Just really quick for people who don't know. It's such a fucking horrible story. It's so sick. This poor guy is murdered coming home from the bar late at night. His family has been harassed for years because he became the center of this controversy that the Clintons had murdered him because he had the secret document that knew that Bernie should have won or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
There's this really great book, Murder on W Street, by Andy Kroll. He's a great reporter about this. It's just the way that this family was treated is horrific. Anyway, they're now trying to, I guess, resurrect that. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
To this point, also on the Epstein files, she tried to split the baby, I guess, on this. We covered this a little bit on the podcast last week, but just to set the stage, there's this demand.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
I don't really understand, me and Matt Iglesias are aligned on this, I don't really understand how the left let the Jeffrey Epstein prison murder become a right-coded conspiracy theory when, like, if Jeffrey Epstein was murdered in prison...
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
It happened during the Trump administration, and Trump and Epstein were friends, and Barr and Epstein, Barr was AG, they had connections, and Acosta, who was in the Trump cabinet, had very deep connections to Epstein. I did a long interview with the best reporter on this a while ago, Julie Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
We'll put it in the show notes if people want to go and listen and learn more about the Epstein conspiracies. But anyway, despite that, it's become this conspiracy on the right that it's like the left, the deep state, was covering this up to protect Trump. deep state left wing people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And so they demanded a list of, you know, all the Epstein associates, even though much of that list has been reported by Julie Brown, and they and they demanded some other materials, I guess. So that's the backstory. So take us to kind of what what has been happening since then.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Yeah, it's a bizarre thing. I mean, like stepping back from everything, like the people that they chose, right? Like the DOJ, I mean, if you were going to do something like this, you know, I don't know. I'm trying to think about like back when I was a flack, you know, way in the before times. I remember, for example, we were going to give a select group of reporters Jeb's tax returns, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Because it was, you know, to try to pressure Trump to put out his tax returns. This is... you know, simpler times and obviously was a strategy that backfired. So the communications director gets a negative mark on that one. But, you know, it's like, we picked a couple of friendly reporters, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
So hopefully they focus on the nice stuff where he gave money to charity or whatever, but then you give a call, you know, you have the AP in there, like give a finance expert in there. So, so, you know, they're Glenn, some credibility to it. Like that is not at all what happened here. Like just talk about the group that was included and that was given these, this binder full of, of sex offenders.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Yes. Okay, I'm just trying to get my character straight. She was wearing a Free Galane shirt.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Yeah, it's interesting because in addition to just like the absurdity, right? That the Department of Justice gives like random... lifestyle, Instagrammers, like these, these sensitive documents. And there's just telling like who they are trying to cater to. That's something I was working on to kind of hit the cutting room floor. But it was the New York young Republican dinner, gala dinner.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
This is like one of the MAGA young Republican groups. I remember being struck by like, Trump is at the head table. I'm like, who was with him at the table? It was like, some people that people will know of like Bannon and Psobiak, but then it was like these folks, like he goes on stage and he's like, Nate, he name checks DC drain now. And he's checking, right? Like all these other people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And it's like, that is this circle, right? Like, this is why this is so important. Like, I think I've said this before, but it's like this, it's like the men in black where, where the tabloids have the real news. It's like, these are the people that they're going to give, uh, special access to over the next four years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And so not that they're going to be offering real news, but like you'll be able to learn things that will not have been provided to actual journalists.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
It's happening. The tabloids have the real news. The random blue checks have the real news. Exactly. Yeah. The cash, as you mentioned it, that's the other thing I've been noticing in the scuttle. Cash is already kind of taking some shots at Bondi. Even though he sort of works for her, there is already some sense there that he wants her to be the fall guy for this stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Yeah. Well, the shorthand of that is what you're telling me is that what the realization I came to about the dangers of my party in my 30s was something you realized in eighth grade. Was that the short summary of that story?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
it's just the reality of where we are that like, this is probably something that makes Bondi more vulnerable.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
than like legitimate scandals right like like if something is going to cost her her standing in the administration and in mega it is going to be you know getting on the wrong side of like these mega influencer weirdos right like not you know the way that she's dismissed people within the doj who are just doing their job
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Well, the scary thing is, no, the way to get back on their good side is to do ridiculous things on their behalf. And so, like, this takes us to one, which is not Bondi with the administration, but it's like this explains the Tate brothers stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And so I know you'd written about them at the Washington Post. And now there's a little bit of this intro MAGA divide with there. But we've been talking to these guys. So listeners know, but like they're, you know, this becomes a priority of the administration, I guess, allowing them travel and a reprieve from the legal targeting, not legal targeting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Like the legitimate investigations of the Romanians and UK had been doing against them. And now they're like palling around with Dana White and Vegas. Cash is there. Zuckerberg's there. And, you know, one way to kind of signal to the MAGA community audience that like you are on their side is to be like, I'll defend I'll do the most ridiculous thing possible.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Like I'll defend these guys who are unapologetic, misogynist, sexual assault, conspirators, etc.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Yeah, it's a good type of human trafficking. It's the mega human trafficking. The Shapiro part is interesting because I think –
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
work with me here on this theory but it goes to like the vice signaling of all of this like in order to get the mega audience to really feel like you're on their side you have to take positions that are anathema to like elite sensibilities right or to even moralistic sensibilities so forget elite sensibilities
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
So while Shapiro is holding the line, if you will, by saying that the Tate brothers are bad, like he's simultaneously doing like a mega media tour right now talking about how Trump should pardon Derek Chauvin, the cop that killed George Floyd with the knee to the neck. This media tour is like pretty – he's on Charlie Kirk's podcast talking about this in addition to talking about it on his own.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
He's really been pushing this. And Trump doesn't even have a lot of jurisdiction here because it's a local charge. There is a more minor federal charge, but it wouldn't get him out of jail. And so to me, Ben is just betraying the like, okay –
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
it's a calculation right like to demonstrate that i'm still on the mega culture war side of things like i'm just going to take an outlier position and if i'm not going to do this on the tates or on what on whatever on being pro-putin then i've got to find some other thing to do it on and i'm going to do it with derek chauvin what do you think about that theory
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
All right. As I tease at the top, I want to do around the world of Trumpistan for people. Because we've talked about all these people, but unfortunately, well, you don't have to. I guess everybody has the option to just not care about this and live your life and tend to your garden. And I honor that choice if you've chosen to do this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
But if you want to know what's happening in the Trump administration, unfortunately, you have to understand these people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
and so um a couple of characters i mentioned him earlier in the pod you've been covering all these guys for a while now so i just want you to give us a little nugget on them a little a little backstory the washington dc the u.s attorney ed martin eagle ed martin yeah ed martin's a
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
I wish I had my crisis moment in high school. Yeah, I mean, look, the thing that I tell you is I don't want to judge, you know, lest I be judged, you know, in these sort of situations. I try to follow the, you know, guidelines and the morals that I was taught as a youth. But like, what I tell people is these people are worse than you think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
on the side of the gay son but like the gay son was kind of like a self-hating gay or something i think is andy schlafly yeah i feel like they aligned against the more against like and because they went mag and they aligned against the more religious children i'm going just from memory
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Yeah, you bring up a good point. I talked about this a little bit with SE Cup yesterday. The crime was allegedly one of the...
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
kind of core tenets of what they're running on and so this u.s this dc u.s attorney pick right like you know crime dc is up all the trump people are living there now like you could have imagined a route that they went where they picked somebody that was like a very draconian like aggressive like crime stopping u.s attorney that was like gonna clean up dc or whatever
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And instead they've like done the opposite. Like, and this guy is like writing letters to Georgetown about how they have too many DEI offices and their college and, you know, sending off letter, you know, attacking the AP for not using Gulf of America and right. Like, and I got total clown with no prosecutorial experience and,
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
who is clearly not focused at all on actual crime in the district of Columbia.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Chuck really was. He was threatening. He was threatening murder. You got him, Ed. We'll see you in court, Chuck. All right. You mentioned him earlier. Deputy FBI Director. Deputy FBI Director Dan Bongino. Before you get to give your backstory, because I don't think I've gotten to this on the pod yet, I have actually two facts that I want to share from my side.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Number one is I have on good authority that, or I guess this is public now. Yes, this is public now, that Cash met with the FBI union, the bureau, the agents union, met with the leadership department,
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
and and promised them that he was going to have a deputy that was somebody that had experience and there were certain you know kind of metrics that they wanted the deputy to have cash agreed to that cash suggested i hate to hand it to cash but cash suggested apparently a couple of people that would have fit this bill trump says no overrules him picks bongino who has no experience has never been has never been an agent and then bongino can't join
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And I had an opportunity to hang out with one of these kind of bro podcaster guys recently, who obviously doesn't know anything about politics and has been having Republicans on the pod. And that's what I tried to get through to him. I was like, I don't think you actually know these people. I don't think that you're necessarily a bad person.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
for a week because he's got to keep podcasting to fulfill the obligations to his advertisers, including one advertiser that's like, we protect you from the deep state, which Dan Bongino is about to be. The whole thing is just so fucking ridiculous. So anyway, I'm sorry. Balls in your court, Dan Bongino.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
I'm curious. The Bongino show never hit for me. I'm an amateur in your space. You're monitoring all this stuff for a profession. I do it kind of as a side hustle because I'm a sicko. But I get the Bannon appeal. I get the Candice appeal. I find Ben Shapiro totally revolting, but I understand it. I understand what people like about it. I don't get the Bongino thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Why did his little talk radio show thing succeed? When I listen to a show, I wonder if this person is literate, if he can read. Is it just a show for really dumb people? Is there something that he does very well that I miss? Is there a podcast or is there something I can learn from him?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
A lot of these people are very bad, and their intentions and motives are bad. And if you follow them over time and see the way that they act... you know, and the way that they change their tune to meet the moment and the way that they're needlessly cruel to people to advance them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Yeah, okay. So the madness, you think, is what his hook is, that he just gets mad and people want somebody that's mad.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
He's the hottest of the hotheads. I need to take a pause from around Trumpistan because we do have some breaking FBI news per Bill Mitchell. Oh, OK. Bill Mitchell is a another figure on the online right. And so we'll see whether this ends up being fake news or real news. But it is important that that we. I feel like we've got to find the old Men in Black music or something.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
We need a segment for the Will Summer segment, or just maybe an audio clip of Tommy Lee Jones talking about how this is where he gets the real news. I'll work on that. Me and Jason will work on that. In the meantime, Bill Mitchell, Breaking FBI News. FBI Director Kash Patel has requested a direct line from his home and office to Trump's Oval Office bypassing AG Pam Bondi.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
It was called Fever Dreams at the Daily Beast. it's Will Sommer. And right now, he's living that fever dream. And your fever dreams are our reality, I guess, is what I meant. Yes, we're all in the fever dream now, right? I want to start by, before we get to the news, by doing your backstory. I mean, I guess we all imagined that Trump could possibly win again, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
This goes to exactly what we were just talking about. I mean, who knows if this is true or not, but I think it's pretty telling about what they're doing here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Do you know anything about the cash, like living with the timeshare guy in Las Vegas? Have you read this story? I have read it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Yeah. It's very strange. It's something I've got my eyes on. Okay. Ash wants to live in Vegas while he's running two very large, complicated bureaucracies. He wants to live in Vegas part-time and I guess have a direct line from Bill Mitchell says his home, but reportedly based on the Nevada independent, it's not actually his home. He lives in some rich timeshare scammers house.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
So like I just, the evidence piles up that there are many people, maybe not the entire drum administration, but many people who are ill-motived. And that to me is like the most alarming thing that I, I try to get through to people. I don't know. Am I, am I being too harsh?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
That was a good take. All right, back to around the world of Trumpistan. I don't know if I've mentioned him since he got this job. This is how fucking ludicrous this administration is. The counterterrorism chief for the United States of America is Sebastian Gorka. Tell us about Sebastian Gorka.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And he's not a guy that is, I would call judicious, even keel. I mean, he, he lashed out at me one time in the hallway of CPAC and, Started shouting me down. He's taller than you think. He's very tall. Yeah, not great breath. And I kind of forget. It's in the Circus Archives somewhere. I forget what he's calling me. Not a nice name. He's coming after you, too, I think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Okay. I guess. Do you feel safe, listeners? He's going to prank call Hamas. All right. I want to close by getting into the grifting world. I want to really close with the greatest grift that's going out there. But before we get to that... I just wonder if you have any thoughts, kind of open season, on either the cryptogriffs and all the various crypto characters that are around.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
It's very different from Trump 1.0. And another thing, Bloomberg has an interesting story on this 1789 capital, which Donald Trump Jr. has gotten his hands in. And just like the madness of the fact that there's now this MAGA VC firm, and in order to get in the good graces of the administration, Like huge companies are now like raising funding rounds.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And it's like, we're going to include Sequoia and we're going to include BlackRock. And then we're going to include Donald Trump Jr. and Blake Masters' firm and give them a little taste. I don't think people have really just kind of appreciated how deep that grift is going. So I'm just wondering if you have thoughts on any of those characters or what's happening there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Don't you fucking downgrade Solana, okay? All right, don't you lump Solana in with all of these other shit coins, all right? This is serious business. That's a real coin there. It's a lot of value underneath there. Are you holding on to that one? No, I'm not holding on to any stuff. All the crypto listeners get so mad at me. You are correct that there are some serious crypto people
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
that are expressing annoyance with Trump because it is, you know, obviously Bitcoin is down, ETH is down, and at some level, I think they rightly see undermining the credibility of their product. And I think that there is clearly some difference between what Bitcoin and what ETH are trying to do and what some of these other total scams are. That said... They're not that mad.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
I mean, if it keeps going down, they're going to be mad. You know, there have been a lot of people who've been making money off of this and like getting in on it. And there doesn't seem to be like, honestly, if I were like a big Bitcoin advocate, right, or a CEO of Coinbase. I would be in a panic over this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
I would be out there trying to do anything I could to protect myself from the shrapnel of this just naked grift that the President of the United States is running with his coins. And you're not really seeing that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
They all got fucking rich beyond anyone's wildest dreams during the Biden years. So I understand that Gary Gensler is like, whatever, the greatest, the greatest devil that history has ever known to the crypto world. But, you know, all of those guys are going to vacation in Tulum thanks to the money that they made during the Biden years. But anyway, I'm sorry to interrupt.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Yeah, right. Well, we're going to do an around the world with some of the people that you've built up files on over the years at the end of the pod. But we've got to do a little bit of news. And I guess this is news in the world that we live in now. But Trump is out with a bleat. That's how we find out what's happening in this country. And today's announcement is kind of an interesting one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
The 1789 Capitol thing. I'm looking forward to future Will Summer reporting on this. It's astonishing that Don Jr. is at these tables. Have you seen the meme with the dragons? It's like the two angry-looking dragons and the one dragon with the eyes and the tongue going sideways. The one dragon that looks like they got hit on the stupid tree and they fell all the way down.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
That is what is happening in these investment rounds. It's like there are four serious investing companies at the table and then there's Don Jr., And I don't know, who knows if the guy that got, I guess he didn't get fired from the administration, but one of the cast offs from Doge are sitting there getting paid.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
The greatest gift of all, though, the ties to, you know, you said your youth is a religious man. Everybody who... believes in God and believes that we should follow the righteous path, they should feel comfort knowing that the leader of the White House Faith Office, the leader of the White House Faith Office, Paula White, offered this video to her supporters this week.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Proverbs 133. You just give me 133 bucks, and man, this moment of divine prophecy in Trump's golden age will shine on you, Will Sommer. I was just about to say, where's she getting the 133? But it makes sense now. Proverbs. I feel like that's a little cheap. I feel like she could have maybe... Maybe punched it up a little bit. What the Paula White? So where did this lady come from?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
He says that he's going to buy a brand new Tesla today as a show of confidence and support for for Elon Musk. He does that on the heels of an interview last night that Elon Musk did with Larry Kudlow. I'm about to play the clip. Musk in this clip is, it seems to me, on the brink of tears.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
All right, we'll end it there. I'm super looking forward to all of the reporting on these weirdos and characters that you're going to do to educate us. You'll be kind of like a layer of the tabloid news, right? Kind of translating the tabloid news for all the rest of us. I really appreciate it, Will. Thanks for having me. One more thing before I leave. I just wanted to shout out Kevin Drum.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
He's a longtime friend. blogger, a longtime liberal blogger that died this week. I've gotten to work with him a little bit. We'd sparred a couple times when he wrote something when I was a flack at the RNC. Then we sparred again when I was a writer for the Bulwark, and we disagreed about a culture war column that he had written. But he's always fair-minded, always serious.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
I'd recommend going out and checking out his archives if you weren't familiar with him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
wanted to honor kevin drum a little bit but there's a story that my friend ben dreyfus wrote about him that i wanted to share with you guys ben writes the calm down sub stack which is advice that i don't take from him but his sub stack is usually quite amusing if nothing else and insightful and he wrote about kevin that they'd worked together at mother jones at the height of
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
kind of the awokening in the cancel culture world on the left. And Kevin was more of an old school liberal. And he had written a couple things that some of the younger progressive staff didn't like. And this came to a head when he wrote a blog post about the movie Parasite, of all things, and how he didn't really prefer subtitles.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And some people on the staff, some of the young progressive staff, decided that was racist, I guess. And, you know, this thing snowballs. And eventually results in Kevin leaving and going out on his own. All this happened, he had already been diagnosed with cancer at the time. The thing that Ben shares about Kevin is that... At the time, he was driving most of the traffic to the site.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
He set it at 1.33%, then it went up and up and up, and was the second biggest driver for Mother Jones of revenue to the site. But every time they tried to give him a raise, he wouldn't take it. He said he didn't need it, and he wanted to put that money back into the fellowship at Mother Jones. He wanted to support the mission.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
He wanted to support the salaries of the ferry people that ran him out on a rail. He didn't say anything about that. He didn't tell anybody. He went out on his own and continued writing, continued to be true to himself. I thought it was a lovely story. It is a model that all of us should try to live up to.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
about being true to oneself about not being not being bullied about trying to support a cause that is greater than yourself even if you don't agree with every single person that is associated with the cause and um man he's a good he was a great writer He influenced a lot of writers that I like and, uh, he'll be missed. So rest easy, Kevin drums.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And he's withering and hemming and hawing in the face of softball questioning from Kudlow, who worked in the Trump administration and could best be described as a lick spittle. So here's Musk responding to Larry Kudlow's very tough questioning. How are you running your other businesses? With great difficulty.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Thanks to Ben Dreyfuss for sharing that story and everybody else. We'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the board podcast. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
The pauses are longer every time I listen to it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
What do you make of this? Obviously, Elon's Tesla stock is crashing. The rocket was shooting debris over the Gulf of Mexico. I do have to say, producer Jason is wearing a Gulf of Mexico shirt today. So it's another message to you, Eagle Ed Martin. You can come at this podcast if you want, if you think that it's worth targeting over Wrongspeak.com.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
but he has some failings in his private businesses. I guess Trump is trying to bail him out. The folks that you're monitoring, what do they make of the fact that Elon is pretty obviously unraveling? I don't think it's TDS to look at that interview and be like, this is a man that is losing his grips on things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
For sure. Yeah. No, I've been discussing about how, how much joy I got on Lundy girl, watching people pelt the cyber trucks with beads. It was a big father moment for me having to tell my child, my seven year old that she couldn't participate in that. You know, I was like, we've got to be the bigger people. Okay. We can't, we can't pelt it with beads while silently inside.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
It was not like we were totally blindsided by that possibility, particularly here at the Bulwark. But I mean, did you ever imagine when you were covering the fever swamps of QAnon, you know, back four or five years ago, doing this podcast that, like, these people would be literally running the country? No. It's true now, even in a way that it wasn't in 2018.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
I'm, I'm beaming as part of this, right? Like they're the people in mega world who are just, they're on board for everything. Like we're so excited for Doge, whatever Mr. Trump says we're on board with.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
You have the more ideological MAGA, if you will, the Bannon wing, the people that have an actual view of nationalism, maybe a skepticism of the big tech oligarchs, a skepticism of the fact that there are so many South African billionaires around the president right now. And then you have people that just want to succeed. I've seen in my feed some...
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
just like random MAGA people that I follow that are just kind of like a little worried about just that the Elon thing is hurting Trump, right? That he's just not that effective. What are you kind of seeing out there? Do you see any fissures?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Obviously, there doesn't seem to be fissures between Trump and Elon since he's trying to boost his company right now, which is, I guess it shouldn't go without saying, it's not very presidential material. In the past, if Reagan was holding up the product of his biggest... biggest donor, I think that would have been maybe a scandal in the newspaper the next morning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Bannon would be happy to tax the Elans of the world. Where they come into alignment is they do both want liberal deep state bureaucrats to suffer. Yes. Right? And so they're getting a little bit of joy out of that, right? But again, this is where the Trump line about using a scalpel, not a sledgehammer. I mean, when I was interviewing Bannon, I asked him, who do you want him to go after?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And he was talking specifically about the TV lawyers, because they annoy him because he watches a lot of cable news. And it's like the FBI, you know, the FBI officials and the DOJ officials that investigated Trump and like the random liberal boogeyman at, you know, the EPA and the Department of Education.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
It's not like they were out there clamoring for, you know, the people in Los Alamos to get fired, right? Or like the VA to be unraveled, right? Like, Some of the VA people are listening to Bannon, right? I mean, there's just been totally indiscriminate in a way that I think is not helping him on the one area where they might have been aligned.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Okay. Well, had Kamala won and had there been no news today, I would have just derailed the entire podcast and we would have spent the rest of the time discussing the singularity versus cyborg war between Pan and Musk. But unfortunately we have other stuff to get to. So we'll, we'll come back to that on another show.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
A lot of people have been following the drama related to Aretha, the neighborhood cat that became our cat that is now maybe the neighborhood cat again. I'll give you a quick update here. So, uh, during the 100 year winter storm, uh, while I was stuck in New York city, my husband and child invited the neighborhood cat that we'd been feeding Aretha into the home.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
They thought they pulled one over on me because I'm not really, not really a pet man myself, but they were so delighted. And, you know, I just, I accepted it. I accepted it, accepted that it was going to be my reality. Um, But the cats still like to go outside sometimes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
My daughter really loves the Lion King, so we used to joke about how sometimes the cat likes to roam the Pride Lands, sometimes it likes to come back. As the weather's gotten warmer, as we've moved into spring, what we found is that Aretha actually prefers the Pride Lands to the home.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
And so while it still comes back from time to time to get a Smalls, and it's still occasionally persuaded to come back by a jiggling of the Smalls treats by my daughter, I'm finding out that maybe I didn't get the house cat that I thought I had agreed to after all. So to me, it kind of feels like a win-win. Aretha is getting its Smalls cat food. And, you know, I'm getting a part-time pet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Today's guest is the newest senior reporter here at the Bulwark. He joined us from the Washington Post where he covered the media and conspiracy theories and other such matters. He's the author of Trust the Plan, The Rise of QAnon, and The Conspiracy that Unhinged America. And he's the former host of one of my favorite pods.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
I'm getting the credit. Everybody's happy. So this podcast is sponsored by my now favorite podcast sponsor, maybe Smalls. Smalls cat food is protein packed with preservative free ingredients you'd find in your fridge. It's delivered right to your door. That's why cats.com named Smalls the best overall cat food.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
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The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
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The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
I want to get your take on the Maha Wars. I mentioned on yesterday's podcast that RFK had been kind of quiet, which I'm happy about. Less RFK, the better, I think. The more dilettante RFK, like hanging out with the rich people that had snubbed him, the better. The more RFK, like meeting with researchers and the NIH and telling them that they have to...
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
look into different solutions for the mumps, the worse. But RFK came back out in the public yesterday. He was at Steak and Shake. This hurts me as a St. Louis native, born in St. Louis. Steak and Shake was very formative to my childhood. A lot of Steak and Shake rewards after my report cards came in. And Steak and Shake has gone maha, allegedly, at least for branding purposes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Sommer: Across the MAGA-Verse
We'll get into that in a second. And been posting about how they are now making their fries beef tallow. And as appreciation for that, Hannity and RFK went to a Steak and Shake and did an interview yesterday. I want to play you a clip from it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
You know, I don't know that we're going to be doing democracy and human rights anymore at the State Department. So we're going to get to that and we're going to get to your recommendations. But Donald Trump did an interview last night on Fox. There was a lot of typical nonsense about, you know, election fraud and Greenland and whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
So there was one forcing these votes in Congress to this point about Democrats being too agreeable. There's an upcoming... big opportunity here with government funding, which runs out in mid-March sometimes. They might play some games with us and move it around a little bit. But essentially, sometime in the next couple months, there'll be government shutdown and debt limit cliffs.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
You wrote that they should not give Johnson a single vote on funding without certain assurances. Talk about how you think they should handle the upcoming budget.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Yeah, I think I might even be more extreme than you on this. They can't make that deal. Or is this what you're saying? It's Calvin ball. Like they can't make that deal because there's no, what assurance could they give you that Donald Trump would follow the law? They have no evidence that he would follow the law.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
But there was a substantive policy exchange that I wanted to get your take on. Here's Trump talking about his plans for what's happening in Ukraine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
I'm mostly with you. Here's who I'm not with. I want to go to the Democrat strategy for a second, and then we'll get to the courts. I was reading my Politico Congress newsletter this morning, and here's a couple of your former colleagues.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Sanford Bishop, a Democrat from Georgia, said, my folks don't want to shut down when asked about the possibility about whether Democrats would go along with the shutdown. Richard Blumenthal, Democratic senator, said, we use whatever levers and points of power we have to But I don't think we should seek a shutdown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
I know this is supposed to be an interview, but I'm going to do a quick rant if you don't mind. Democrats that are listening, how hard is this? If a journalist asks you if you want to shut the government down, you say no. You say no, we don't.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
If the Trump administration will stop illegally blocking funds for farmers who had contracts with the government and stop blocking funds for rural health centers and stop blocking funds for nurses and Meals on Wheels, then we'll come to the table. And until then, they're on their own. They control the government. It's up to them to come to us for a deal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
If they want to shut the government down, we can't do anything to stop them. So they need to come to us, hat in hand, with a deal. Otherwise, the government shutdown is on them. I don't understand why this is so hard. Explain to me your people, Tom. Why are they acting like they have any role in the shutdown at all? They don't. The Republicans control everything.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
What about making DC a state? Yeah, well, maybe. Okay. We'll come to the table. We'll make DC a state.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
One more thing on this for our Dem friends listening. The next thing, I'm just telling you what's coming, is that they, in order to do the CR or whatever, to kick the can, because they can't do anything. Like, they're not capable. It's potentially possible that the Senate gets something passed eventually. That'll take forever. And that Trump bullies everybody into going along with it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Like, that's potentially possible. But the House Republicans can't do anything. And so, what they do now is they'll come and be like, okay, yeah, we will... We will give you a deal. We'll fund the obligations that we've already agreed to. And that's our concession. And I think it will be tempting for some Democrats to be like, okay, That's a deal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
We get emergency funding for California and we make sure that the USAID funds that have already been appropriated, you know, are actually spent. And that's a deal. And I just I implore everyone that is not a deal like they are not like them doing the thing that they're legally obligated to do is not a concession.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
They might be Russian someday. It's an interesting thing to say about an ally. What do you think about that? Yeah, I don't know where to start.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Good. Well, I mean, you could probably go like 20% further. I would still be aligned with you, but I'm taking it. Directionally, we're aligned. The court's question is more interesting to me. This is a third suggestion that you had massive flood of legal challenges, which I'm for, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
I'm a little bit nervous that there's some backfiring happening among the legal challenges, but talk to us about what you, what you think about the legal strategy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
I agree with that. And particularly, I just would say one point is that Catholic Relief Services, those organizations are actually going to be more sympathetic. Yeah, I agree. Really, and have a better impact.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
How do you think that that then plays out? Because I think that if Congress actually voted on this stuff, there would, you know, I think be a lot of opposition to some of the various things that we've seen as far as the spending freezes are concerned. But... The path of inertia from the speaker and the Senate majority leader would be just kind of let Trump and Elon do what they want.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
I've been using the whole OneSkin suite of products. I need it right now, you know, because Donald Trump is aging me by the minute. So I'm trying to counteract that with the OS1 peptide that's protecting my senescent cells. Face, eye, and body. The whole thing. Using them all. Easy to travel with. Easy to pack on the road. Highly recommend.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
I feel like the greatest service I've offered to the straight men in my life is that some of them have started to moisturize. And let me tell you, the ones who haven't, I notice. I know. I know the ones that are lying to me. You can see the difference. Moisturize. Go to one skin. Just trust me on this one, straights. Alright.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
All right. A couple of other suggestions that you had in the fight, fight, fight piece, creating economic benchmarks and holding Republicans to account for that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
I'm already rolling my eyes at the, but the price of eggs is up talking points in part because like a lot of times when I hear Democrats saying this, I'm stealing this idea from a guy, Ben Gross, I follow on Twitter, but I thought he was so right. It feels like they're almost actually more mad at the voters than they are at Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
You know, that like the, but the egg prices are kind of like a troll of the of the argument that voters voted for Trump because of egg prices and that there are better ways to like make the economic case.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
You know, my buddy Pat Dennis was tweeting this morning, grocery prices continue to climb while Trump administration focuses on nonsense and linked to a announcement that Sean Duffy changed notice to air missions back to notice to air men. So this is our masculine political correctness memos. To me, there's something better there, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Which is like, it's not getting better and these guys don't actually care about it. They care about the Gulf of America. But I wonder how you would think about handling that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Well, maybe the desire for werewolf minerals, going all the way back to taking the oil, can nudge him in the right direction on that. I don't love it when it's like, you're talking about free countries, and it's like, you never know. I mean, you might be Russia tomorrow. I just don't even really love the voicing of that option being on the table. But here we are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
shut it all down. We get to see what their authentic governing plans look like.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Yeah, that's fine. I had a long-going back-and-forth friendly disagreement with Steve Hayes, who's over at the dispatch, that I think I won. So that's why I bring it up. And this was during the first term, where his first term, he was of the view that it was good to have good people there. It was good to have these people in the room that you're talking about, softening his edges.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
And my view was, no. People need to see what they picked. People need to see what they picked or else we're going to be stuck with him. And here we are, nine years later. Maybe he would have risen from the ashes again, regardless, because we're a decadent people. I don't know. Who knows? Because of Joe Biden's mistakes and et cetera.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
But I do think that people were protected from their choices in a major way the first time, and it contributed to his maintaining popularity. So, one man's opinion. Yeah. You don't have to go there. I don't have to get you on my burning the crops strategy. I'm happy you're at least on the fighting. The fighting part is step one. We can agree there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Well, that's true, but fighting and winning would require, they would be weakened, right? And so there are a couple of different, there are more than two outcomes here, right? What I'm concerned about, the Stanford Bishop approach is conceding, right? It's like going to the table with him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
It's Chamberlain if we're going to be doing historic analogies here because you don't want people to be mad at you. And so accommodating, that's what I'm against. So fighting and getting them to back down, okay, I'm for that. But fighting to the point where you don't come to an agreement and the line has to be held.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
And that means that they, you know, continue to advance their very unpopular policy agenda. Like, I think it might come to that. We're not there right now, but I think it might come to that. So anyway, we'll see. I'm one by one haranguing Democratic. You're not in Congress anymore, so I don't need to harangue you. I'm one by one haranguing Democratic Congress people about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
And one other colleague we had to ask you about. You can feel free to plead the fifth on this, but I think our listeners are going to want to know the news. Nancy Mace of South Carolina last night used an hour-long speech on the U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
House floor to accuse her ex-fiance of physically abusing her, recording sex acts without her consent, and conspiring with business associates in acts of rape and pedophilia. She paired this with a hype video of herself. crying and then cussing about it. And then she accused the Republican Attorney General of South Carolina of not looking into this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
The Republican Attorney General of South Carolina put out a statement saying that he has not received any reports or requests for assistance from law enforcement regarding any of these matters. He basically said, big question mark. I have no idea what you're talking about. What's happening over there? I mean, she's doing dick checks in the bathroom and something is awry, I guess, among Nancy Mace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Do you have any theories for me on that? Or do you want to take a pass on that one?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
It is sad. Also kind of sad, one more of your former colleagues, Lauren Bovert, page six, she was spotted getting to a cab at 2.30 a.m. with Kid Rock last night. At least some people are enjoying themselves, Tom.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
That's good. You got to keep up with what people are saying about you. She's paying Politico. All right. Ooh, I had one other former colleague I wanted to ask you about. I know you're doing a lot of work on national security stuff. What about our new national security advisor, Mike Waltz?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
We'll see what happens. Speaking of U.S. values-based alliances and diplomacy, I guess that was the next topic I wanted to get to with you, since you did a lot of that work during the Obama administration. I was on a panel in Palm Springs. with Karl Rove last week. It's an interesting life we're leading.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Was there something in particular? I mean, I had a whole chapter on Elise in my book, so I'm with you. But was there something, you've piqued my interest. Was there something in particular that happened?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
She wouldn't say his name for the first two years. She wouldn't even say his name. She hated him so much. Her whole staff was all rhinos.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Yeah. Give me a, give me a hundred Lauren Boberts and kid rock in the back of a Uber over, over Elise. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
And, you know, one of the points I was trying to make that he was objecting to was that, I mean, maybe it's not completely over. Like, maybe the coffin isn't shut yet. But to me, it feels like this second Trump term means basically... the end, if not the twilight, of U.S. values-based foreign policy and alliances that are based on that because most of these countries aren't going to trust us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
It's interesting. I wonder when the MAGA folks will know that. His deputy, too, is a guy I know very well who was Romney's foreign policy guy. So totally mainstream in the National Security Agency. So anyway, fighting. I'm with you. Hopefully you can nudge... your colleagues, your former colleagues, that direction on the Democratic side of the aisle. And let's stay in touch.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
You're welcome to write or pop off with us anytime.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
All right. Thanks so much to Tom Malinowski. Appreciate the energy, the fight, fight, fight. We'll be back tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. See you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
The Bullard Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
I mean, maybe it will continue with the United Kingdom and Israel, but if you're one of these other countries around the globe that have a softer relationship with us, how could the type of work that you did in the Obama administration, how could they even take that at face value anymore? So... I'm not as dark and gloomy as that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
I guess I can say this having been a Bush supporter during that time. I do think that, I mean, clearly there were ramifications in our relationships, particularly with the Muslim world, like for those actions over the longterm, maybe it didn't mean the end of them dealing with us. All right. Maybe I was being a little apple, you know, a little extreme, but it certainly had an impact.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
And I'm just curious, like what of all the, I mean, you know, who knows how everything will shake out with USAID, et cetera, but, with the legal challenges. What do you see as the biggest short to medium term ramifications of what's happening?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
are you hearing from, I'm sure you are like hearing from people that you were working with counterparties during the Obama administration. I mean, do you have any sense for how, how bad on, on the ground reality is at the moment?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to be here today with Tom Malinowski, Representative of Jersey's 7th Congressional District from 2019 to 2023. He was Assistant Secretary of State during the Obama administration, concentrating on democracy and human rights. And he wrote for us last week, five things Dems must do to fight Trump now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
What's your advice to them on that? Because if you look at Canada, right, they do the face-saving deal, but then they still get hit with this 25% tariff on aluminum and steel, which is disproportionately hurting them. And the clock is still on, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Like three weeks from now, Trump's going to try to do another Monday Night Raw press conference where he, you know, gives Trudeau a noogie and tries to get him to concede more, right? So, I mean, I don't know what the right play is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
All right, this is why you're on the pod. You're on my level on this. Cleansing pain is what is going to be required here. A lot of people don't want to say it, but I think that it is true. Trump's strongest position is to have press conferences, call people weak. do smoke and mirrors, change the Gulf of Mexico to the Gulf of America and not actually do anything meaningful.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Like that's his strongest hand. The weakest hand is if he actually has to follow through on the unpopular agenda that the Heritage Foundation dweebs are trying to push on him. So to that point, to your article. The Malinowski plan, in short, is basically fight, fight, fight. You had five points. I want to jump around a little bit. Your second one, because it's related to what we just talked about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Now, this was written before, kind of in the midst of the Trump kind of kayfabe tariff threats. But you wrote, the Democrats should force a vote in Congress on Trump's tariffs. I think that this same principle could be made true across a bunch of different issues where Trump is clearly bluffing And the policy divides the Republican conference.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
And rather than letting them, you know, kind of allied those differences, do what is possible to force, force their hand to confront it. So, so talk about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Want to talk about all of it. So welcome to the pod. How you doing, Congressman? I'm great. Everything's so wonderful. Is that right? What do you go by as a former congressman? You just want to be Tom? Do you want to be sir? Do you want to do sir? Your Excellency. Your Excellency? Just Tom's fine, yeah. We'll try out a couple different ones and see how it goes. All right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
But impose against China, the ones that stayed through those.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Malinowski: Fight the Power, Dems
Speaking of dweebs in a good way, is there a person in the Democratic caucus that is particularly attuned to these sorts of strategies? Like, who's our parliamentarian troublemaker over there among your former colleagues?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Essentially, I think what court watchers are saying, and we'll have more on that later this week, is that Roberts put the stay on there because there's going to be a truncated timeline, which means that the Supreme Court is likely to act quickly in this case. So in the meantime...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Putting aside all the firings and all the fallout from that, because you're going to be back on this pod talking about that a lot, I think, over the next few months. Also, just the straight health changes that we're seeing already from HHS. Maybe not from HHS, but the impact of the rhetoric coming out of RFK maybe is having an impact. We've seen two measles deaths of children in Texas.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
I guess RFK gave kind of a tepid endorsement of the MMR vaccine in reaction to that. But what else are you seeing in that part of the health space?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
It was a clear sentence, but it was like sentence 22 of a very long statement. And it was just like, it was a perfunctory, the MMR vaccine is an effective way to resolve this or something like that. It was like just a very perfunctory statement, which is better than nothing. You know, better than saying, hey, you know, one thing to consider would be beef tallow as a solution to this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
But like, you know, it's not great.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
I mean, it's Bobby. It's Bobby. You should take the MMR vaccine. Yeah, we haven't we haven't heard him rasp that out yet. I don't think it's on video.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
abrigo garcia is stuck in a torture dungeon in el salvador so hopefully scotus can act with alacrity on that there's another scotus ruling with regards to the alien enemies act deportations not the one where the justice department admitted they screwed up for all these other folks who many of them it seems like they're very likely they screwed up but the government hasn't admitted it yet and in this case the ruling is mixed it's bad news i mean horrifyingly bad news for the
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
I mean, at least partially. Maybe it's kind of a Trump 1.0 version of him. He's getting some of his people in there, like Dr. Casey Means and Callie Means. And there are some cranks and random weirdos he's got in HHS. And you've got to presume those people are doing something.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
That's the craziest part. Like, it's hard to even see what the political advantage is. Like, it just seems totally, to get to our next guest, like reactionary and crazy and just like living in a cave. I understand the rationale for we're going to reform the way we do Medicaid and Medicare, and there have got to be certain cuts to those programs. We've got to means test it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Some people are getting that they don't deserve, and maybe there's some fraud, and maybe we shouldn't give that. Whatever. These are rational arguments for all that. We can't afford all the services that we're doing because the scale of that spend is so relevant towards the debt we've accrued. I'll have a rational debate with people over that and what the right amount of reform is on all that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Cutting the NIH scientists might cost money, probably. In the long term, it will probably cost us money because of whatever fucking disease we don't solve. Then we have to send those people into the Medicaid and Medicare system. We will do a deep dive because this is going to be
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
One of basically two crux points of the big tax and budget bill that's going to come this year is what these guys do with regards to Medicaid cuts and Obamacare extensions, etc. So why don't you just kind of give people the biggest picture outline of what you think is coming, what the big fights are over, and then we'll do a deeper dive on it in a couple months when the rubber's meeting the road.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
260, 300 some odd men who've already been sent to El Salvador because the options for relief for them seem to be a stretch, to be honest. Not totally hopeless, but essentially, you know, kind of the court ruled that prospectively in the future, the administration needs to give people that are going to be removed based on the Alien Enemies Act notice and an opportunity for habeas corpus.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
In general, if you if you take a poll and it's an easy way to get lots of money out of it, though, I mean, like in the grand scheme of things for how much that they're going to be cutting in taxes. Is that a big enough ticket item to get to the trillion that they're trying to cut?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Then people end up in the emergency room and they're getting treatment anyway because we're not leaving people to die. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not the most efficient. Doge, though. Doge is focused on efficiency. It's right there in the name. Right. I saw that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
clamping down on those although that's not going to be where the big fight is though like the big fight is going to be on how to actually significant substantive cuts to try to get the ticket price for these tax cut extensions down like that's that's really what it comes down to right it does it does and you know the politics of this are very interesting because you know historically
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
I was watching one of the ACLU lawyers who's been really the point on this and says, like, at some level, this is good, at least, that the Supreme Court unanimously said that people deserve due process. Like, we are not, it's not Stalin's Russia quite yet.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Jonathan Cohn. So good. We'll go way deeper on this in the future. I appreciate you very much. Welcome to the Bulwark. It's good to have a policy nerd, not a Dungeons and Dragons nerd, but a policy nerd on the staff. And we'll be chatting with you soon. Thanks for having me. All right, everybody. Up next, Mark Lilla. All right, we are back.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
He's a professor of humanities at Columbia University, author of The Once and Future Liberal. His latest book is Ignorance and Bliss on Wanting Not to Know. I'm relating to that right now. It's Mark Lilla. Hey, Mark, thanks for coming on the pod. Glad to be here.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
The bad news is, like, the way that they wrote it is that a lot of these folks, you know, are going to have to try to seek relief in the Texas Fifth Circuit, which is the most kind of hostile to asylum cases. So at some level, it is good that the court did not just give total carte blanche to the president and Stephen Miller and Tom Homan to send anybody they want to a dungeon in El Salvador.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
For folks who aren't as familiar with your work, I thought maybe it'd be a good place to start just by giving us a little kind of penny tour through your backstory and your political journey.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Well, he has. Maybe a lost sheep in the, you know, and then has kind of come on back into the flock. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
On the other hand, what are the opportunities for relief? for recourse for the people who have already been sent, there was no indication that the Supreme Court had any interest in forcing the government to return the people that are already in El Salvador. So we will keep monitoring that and we'll keep you posted on what can be done.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
It's something that I'm certainly going to be asking politicians about when they come onto this podcast. In the meantime, as I mentioned, we have a two-parter today. In the second segment, it's Mark Lilla. He's a political philosophy and humanities professor at Columbia University.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
I will say, though, the fact that Dave Chappelle was making this very poignant critique of Donald Trump's tariff policy eight years ago, does kind of undermine the arguments from some of the Trump fluffers on Wall Street who were so blindsided by this. The Bill Ackmans of the world. Bill Ackman's out there tweeting about how could this possibly be? It must be a conspiracy.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
who's kind of big think writings about how we got where we are have been i think super compelling and i've wanted to have him on the pod for a while but up first he's the new senior national correspondent here at the bulwark he writes a bi-weekly newsletter the breakdown about what is happening in our government he's the author of the 10-year war obamacare and the unfinished crusade for universal coverage it's jonathan cone welcome to the pod man hey it's good to be here
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Very excited to have you on board. I know what we're planning for you here, but why don't you tell the listeners kind of what role you're going to fill? Because I think it's really important. After Trump 1, I was saying to Sam and Sarah and JVL and everybody that like, I'm coming on here and popping off on a lot of stuff that I'm learning about in real time.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
It's funny listening to you talk about this with Andrew.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
like the concert that concerted impulse as you describe it right the communitarian you know like the society matters community matters it should you know make make change slowly be skeptical of change and that impulse is just like completely non-existent like just listening to you describe it was very clarifying in that you know we are very much in a reactionary moment and there are different strains of it right and you've written about kind of the
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
radical you know christian nationalist side of the reactionary uh movement that we're seeing on the right and then there's you know more of the tech tech version of that but do you think that is right and and like that kind of reordering feels like a semi-prime nothing's permanent right but like that reordering feels like it's here to stay for a little while to me i don't know what about you
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
And then during campaign season, this is my area of expertise. I can pop off on it. But the changes are so dramatic in the actual functioning of our government, we needed somebody to come on and help me work through all that. And so I'm hoping you can play that role. But give the listeners a little bit about you and what you're planning on doing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
I mean, anybody that you name, and with love to Yuval, is not really meaningfully part of the party right now. You know, in any meaningful sense for as far as power is concerned or influence.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Just for people who don't know, yeah, the University of Austin is kind of the Barry Weiss and some other folks did kind of a spinoff. quasi-university. I don't think it's an accredited university at this point. It's more for challenging the status quo, challenging the way that universities are teaching our kids.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
So, anyway, just to give people that, mostly from the right perspective, just to give people that backstory.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Okay, let's get to your book, Ignorance and Bliss, because there is, I think, a through line here and a connection there, which is one of the lines you have is that reactionary politics are flourishing in our liquid world should surprise no one. So make this connection for us to the book and to why you think this might be happening now on a deeper kind of level.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
The theme being kind of like, why do we want to block out this unpleasant information, essentially? Why is there this desire for ignorance?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Yeah, and in that sense, it kind of ties to this, like, why... Because you could imagine it going the other way. I mean, like, the tech utopians, like, made the opposite argument, right? Like, we were going to come to this moment where we had all this information at our fingertips, people are going to know more than ever.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Like, it's not crazy to have thought that at this moment we would have reached a time of, you know, peak curiosity and interest in what was happening. And it feels like... it's had the opposite result, right? There's been this retrenchment.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
And so to me, and kind of to reading the book and a lot of it is goes away, you know, you're, you're back at Aristotle and Oedipus for a lot of the book, but it's like, to me, a lot of this, like most recent, you know, developments is really phone related, you know, like that it's like that some level, this like internal desire that we have to not want to know things that are unpleasant and,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
has been hypercharged by the fact that there's so much unpleasant stuff being delivered to us at once.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
I want to close. I'm just wondering if you have any practical thoughts for the types of folks that are probably listening to this. We have small, illiberal listeners mostly, for the most part, and people that are more curious on that scale that you kind of laid out. But even with our listeners, I can just see it because we now know all the numbers. If I put up something that's like,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
this is going to be very bad news for Donald Trump, more people are likely to look at that than less, right? When I put up something that, you know, that, that folks that listen to this are going to find unpleasant either about what's happening in the news or what's, what I think that the Democrats are doing or whatever, fewer people are, or some people are going to be like, no, I screw you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
I don't, why are you, why are you telling me this? Right? Like that's not everybody, you know, but there's that strain is in all of us, right? I don't, I don't listen to my favorite sports team's recap podcast after they lose. I only listen after they win, right? And there are little examples of this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
So do you have any practical kind of thought, having thought deeply about this, any practical ways for individually, for people to kind of navigate the ignorance and bliss?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Mark Lilla, really appreciate you. The book is Ignorance and Bliss. Thank you for coming on to the Bulwark Podcast. And we'll be looking out for your writings in the future. Stay in touch. I appreciate it. Thanks a lot. All right, everybody else, we'll see you back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
All right. Rule America. You know, we're out here. We out here. So your newsletter coming out a little later tonight is going to be focused on the impact of tariffs. So you're in Michigan. I was talking to Mallory McMorrow, I guess, last week. And I know you've been interviewing her as well about her run for Senate. And Michigan, in a lot of ways, is kind of...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
ground zero for this and people would be affected by tariffs everywhere, but just because of the cross-border exchange with Canada and because the manufacturing that's happening in the state. So kind of talk about your reporting and what's coming out in the newsletter and what you're seeing in Michigan on the tariff impact.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
It must be Howard Nutlick who's long on bonds trying to hurt the economy. No, Trump's been warning you that he was going to do this for a long time now. You just didn't believe him. So anyway, kudos to Dave Chappelle for his 2017 prescience. And one other news item I just wanted to get to before we get to our guests, because I don't think we're going to cover it in either of those conversations.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
I don't actually, I, you know, I like to drink and go to football games and kiss people. So I don't really know a lot about board games. Yeah. So I will say, I'm sorry, board game fans out there. I'm sure there are very sexually active board game fans out there. So anyway, please explain to me. That's what I'm saying. I know nothing about this culture.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
There's some Supreme Court rulings last night with regards to the kidnappings, deportations, whatever you want to call them, to Secot in El Salvador. The first one was with regards to Kilmer Abrego Garcia. He's this father in Maryland who the government admitted was wrongly sent to El Salvador and
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
their buyers as like a community right i mean you know this is again not my world not your world but well and you plan all this stuff ahead i think the interesting insight is that right it's like it's like oh these tariffs are going to come on by april 2 it's liberation day it's like that's not like how businesses work you know that they can just flip the switch on like it's such a huge change in their cost and only a month i
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
I got a text from a non-political friend of mine. This is a little bit maybe the other side of the market from the board game market. But he had a friend who texted him that was importing kind of high-end house interior stuff, like the kind of marble or whatever that you only can get from certain countries around the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got a two-parter today. But first, I wanted to mention yesterday, many of you emailed me, I appreciate that, about the fact that I guess I said that the Dave Chappelle clip I played was from last week when it was from 2017. So, whoopsie.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
They're like, we asked your political friend, is this going to be around for a while? Is this going to go away? Is this a bluff? What is happening? For people who did not engage... that closely in the political campaign who were running businesses.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
I do think it's just been a shock to these types of smaller boutique businesses across different sectors that don't have lobbyists, weren't contemplating the idea that the marble they import from wherever could go up by whatever random percentage that country got on the big billboard that Donald Trump made with the bad math.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
We're not just going to be screwing small screws into phones. We're also going to be hand-making individual pieces of the Dungeons & Dragons board game here in Michigan. That could be a new job coming to Michigan from the fired government workers. Who knows? Displacement is happening. On fire government workers, your healthcare is like really your go-to area of expertise.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
Since the Justice Department lawyer that was making that argument was put on leave by Pam Bondi for, I guess, not being sufficiently supportive of the administration's lawless deportation regime. So anyway, this went to the Supreme Court and John Roberts put a stay on the circuit court judge's order that Abrego Garcia be returned.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1016: Jonathan Cohn and Mark Lilla: Lobotomizing America
So you've already written a newsletter about kind of the dramatic changes we're seeing at HHS. What from your kind of reporting has like struck you the most as far as, you know, potential ramifications from changes at HHS? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
All right. I want to go back to the whole country could collapse, which is something you said, which is like, You feel crazy sometimes. You feel like an alarmist when you're saying stuff like this.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
But I just look across all of the variables of what you're seeing with the tariffs and the trade wars, what you're seeing with the corruption and the grift, what you're seeing with the austerity, the inflation, Trump maybe going to bully the Fed. Scott Besson's out this morning talking about how they need to lower rates, which is also inflationary.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
And on top of that, we'll get to in segment two, all the Ukraine stuff. It does feel unbelievably tenuous, right? Like we're at the beginning stages of something that could go very, very bad.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
It's ugly. It's really ugly. It's hard being right, James. Well, in case you're wondering if we've got the best and brightest at the tiller here as we face these problems, nobody talks about Ag Secretary Brooke Rollins So it's like maybe you wonder, oh, I know that egg sets the clown. I know some of these other people are clowns. Maybe some of the other people I don't know are better.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Well, here's the agriculture secretary talking about how she thinks people should deal with high egg prices on Fox Business.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
How are you doing? Happy Carnival.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Maybe everybody could just start growing a little farm in their backyard, a little chicken.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
I mean, yeah, everybody should get them. Yeah, we cut the Medicaid. You're right. Maybe some bartering. I don't know if it helps short term for people on the egg prices right now. And it's going to take a little while. You think the agriculture secretary would have some thoughts about like, you know, the chickens just don't start producing eggs, you know, immediately.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
There are a lot of problems with it. Other people have jobs. Working people have jobs.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
These guys don't seem to really adhere to the supply and demand ethos. It's not your old school Republicans. This isn't Adam Smith here. This is Donald Trump picking winners and losers. I mean, have you been following the crypto thing? They're going to buy a strategic reserve of Bitcoin and Ethereum with our money?
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Maybe we need a strategic reserve of Mardi Gras beads. Maybe that's what we need a strategic reserve of. We should be investing in kind of the rare, the glass beads, you know, the rare beads, the value might go up in the future.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
I got to tell you, there were things I didn't even know about until I moved here as a transplant. There are whole parades and some of my favorite events are things that nobody even knows about. You can DM me if you want to know the secret for next year. There's politics in the way of Kind of good fun, good spirited teasing of politicians that you have during carnival season.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
I think there's something to it. And maybe there's a parallel there to the crypto situation. Your point about the systemic risk, right? It was like one thing when this was all happening on the blockchain and and people are putting money in it. That's one thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Once the big institutional banks start including it in their system, and then once the fucking federal government starts investing in it, it becomes a massive structural risk. It's a really good point.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
All right. I've got two more things for you. One serious and one maybe serious. We'll see. Okay. When you've got a podcast where you're bringing in a Russian GRU expert to talk about fears of Russian cyber attacks and the collapse of the Western order and the United States turning around to Russia, well, it makes you start to think about things at a different level.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
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The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
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The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
SelectQuote. They shop, you save. Get the right insurance for you for less at SelectQuote.com slash Bulwark. Go to SelectQuote.com slash Bulwark today to get started. That's SelectQuote.com slash Bulwark. The Virginia Govs race is coming up. It's not real. It's coming up in November. We've got a few months ahead.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
But I did notice in your New York Times piece you called it one of the most important inflection points coming up. And so this is kind of your wheelhouse, right? So I just wanted to let you roll on it.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
There's not a ton of politics, which is nice. It's a nice reason to be down here. One thing that accidentally overlapped into politics last night, the Orpheus Parade, one of my favorites. I was there with my daughter until way too late last night. Beautiful floats. Harry Connick Jr. started it. Bianca Del Rio from Drag Race was the queen of the parade. But they also had Cybertrucks.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
The last one, you keep mentioning that you think Donald Trump has syphilis. Okay. And we talked about it once. And I just, I got to ask, do you really think he has syphilis? Or do you think, is this a bit?
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Okay. Gross to think about that people would want to do that with him. But yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
That's good news. All right. Well, something's happening, is what you're saying. You think something's happening, and then some of it's a bit.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
I don't either, James.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
I mean, he was shouting about shit in the White House like he was a deranged comment section monster. It was very strange behavior for a president. James Carville, you know, it's not a Mardi Gras unless you're talking to James Carville about masturbation and relative bead value after the toss. And so I hope everybody enjoyed it. Appreciate you very much, James.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Go Tigers. I'll see you soon. Up next, Michael Weiss.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
And every time one of those things came by, those guys were getting pelted with beads. Oh, wow. I felt so bad for the Cybertruck guys. They were getting booed and pelted with beads. So I don't know that Elon's popularity was too high down at home.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
All right, we are back. Kind of a sharp turn from our carnival segment one with James Carville to Michael Weiss, editor of The Insider, a Russia-focused independent media outlet, and he's a contributing editor at New Lines Magazine. He is back. You've got a new piece out of New Lines Magazine, Can Europe Back Ukraine's Fight Alone? That's a pretty ominous headline for a piece.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
I don't know that it's something we're all worried about, maybe, when you... We're last on here, but things have changed dramatically. And it's kind of... I don't really know where to start with you. We've got, I guess, Trump has paused military aid to Ukraine. They want Zelensky to apologize if they're going to do the rare earth minerals deal.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
The rare earth minerals deal might not even bring arms delivery back. They might do sanctions relief on Russia. Lech Walesa's thrashing Trump. Vance is on Hannity shitting on our European allies for doing what he asked them to do. How do you even begin with the state of play?
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Vance, who went on Hannity. We actually have the audio. If you want to start there, since you're running the show, let's listen to J.D. Vance on Hannity.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
He followed up on Twitter. He's our first poster vice president.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
It really hurts me as a poster for it to be J.D. Vance as the first representing us. But he wrote this. But let's be direct. There are many countries who are volunteering online.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
support who have neither battlefield experience nor the military equipment to do anything meaningful so it's him trying to back off saying he was talking about the uk and france then he says let's be direct but it's unclear who he's talking about so he's not being that direct
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
And then on top of, obviously, the West Wing meeting where he blows up and insults Zelensky and says they're losing, they don't have the cards, whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
And Europeans, I think, understand this now. And this other thing that I can think transitions also into what Europeans are having to be forced to understand is –
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Even if you take the minerals deal at face value, even if you take Vance's argument to Hannity at the beginning of that clip before he shits on the Brits, where he's like, actually, it's better for Ukraine if we do a minerals deal because we'll have economic skin in the game. And that is more of a security guarantee than Europe.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
After watching these guys blow up the entire Western alliance over, I guess, getting mad at Zelensky for a personal slight, who could possibly trust that they would actually put American troops in harm's way, American troops in place to defend this country that they have such contempt for? and to defend some, you know, whatever, mine of minerals that they decided that they're going to get.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
It was wonderful. We had a good time. All right, we got to do a little politicking. You've been pushing in some of your interviews recently the idea that Trump will collapse. And for some people, it's like, okay, this is resistance nonsense. This is spin. This is bullshit. But here we are, just a few days after you're saying it, this morning as we tape, the market is down.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Like, who would look at these guys and say these guys would go to the mat for the minerals? I just find it very, like, it's kind of silly on its face, really.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
It looks like another 600 points. The Dow is down right now, and we'll see what happens the rest of the day. It was down about 1.5% yesterday as well. Very negative response to the tariffs. It's a shit show in Europe. And I don't know. Things look pretty collapse adjacent, I guess. Maybe we're not there yet, but how do you assess things?
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Speaking of that, the fact that the bombs are still dropping, it's another kind of point of the J.D. quote with Hannity, which is, again, in the most generous interpretation, he's trying to say that Putin wouldn't invade Ukraine again. I guess he would mean invade new territory from whatever we give them. But they're actively invading Ukraine now still, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Bombs were dropping in Kharkiv on Sunday, I'm sure other places, but that was just what I was reading about. What is your sense for the state of play in the ongoing war war, not the war of words?
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Yeah, Zelensky is the adversary. Yeah, right, of course. The Russians, in those kind of telegram conversations and just kind of monitoring the reporting that you do, Like, it's hard for me to tell based on the public comments, right? You know, you have Peskov kind of like rubbing our face and shit being like, Americans just totally agree with our worldview now. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
And so it's hard to tell for me, like how much of that is true. is bragging is trying to humiliate Trump. How much of it is just like, they can't believe their luck. Like, like what do you kind of sense is the P as kind of the point of view from GRU types, Russian types, people around Putin.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
And like, honestly, I mean, if I'm trying to put myself in their shoes, but you're kind of like, do nothing and just kind of see how it happens. Like everything keeps coming up millhouse for Putin. And so like, why try to, why do something that might screw it up? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Yeah. So this takes us back to your column. Can Europe do it? And by Europe, you mean, I guess the West broadly, including Canada, Australia, etc. Like, do they have the equipment, manpower, resources to do it?
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Same as the J.D. Vance thing. It's like do more, pay more, pay more, put more money into defense. And then they say they're going to do it. Then it's like, oh, wait, no, you guys can't do it. You're.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
How tempting is it to Zelensky at this point to just... try to make that pivot. I don't, you know, I mean, at some level, it seems like the conventional wisdom is that he's going to have to whatever, apologize and like rub Trump's belly and say, I'm sorry, sir. Uh, like, is he going to have to, I mean, I guess, I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
It's still such a wild sentence. I can't even.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
I just want to run Zelensky really quick. I guess I feel obligated to mention this since he is maybe the most influential person in the world. Elon Musk tweeted, as distasteful as it is, Zelensky should be offered some kind of amnesty in a neutral country in exchange for a peaceful transition back to democracy in Ukraine. So that's an interesting negotiating position.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
To that point, I mentioned at the top, like Valesa, just cook on this. It was just an unbelievable letter from the Polish dissident who became the first elected president of Poland after the fall of communism. He said he reacted with horror and disgust at Trump's Oval Office meeting.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
All right, let's talk about this. I hate leading off the podcast with maybe a slight disagreement. We can hash it out. So you wrote the column, and you wrote basically this. With no clear leader to voice our opposition and no control in any branch of government, it's time for Democrats to embark on the most daring political maneuver in the history of our party, roll over and play dead.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
He said, gratitude is due to the heroic Ukrainian soldiers who shed their blood in defense of the values of the free world. We do not understand the had the leader of a country that is a symbol of the free world cannot see this. He also has some pretty dark comparisons for Trump. What did you make of it?
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
You would think that the Lech Walesa letter would make Marco Rubio look in the mirror and ask if he's the baddies. But I don't know. We haven't seen a lot of evidence of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Me and Bill Kristol were talking about this yesterday. The CNN story about how we are going to stop whatever offensive cyber operations against Russia was pretty vague. And we were trying to parse through what it actually meant. And I was wondering if you had anything to enlighten us on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Obviously, you're being a little cheeky there a little with that phrase. You don't literally mean that. But I mean, I guess my view is that isn't what Mitch McConnell did. That isn't what Trump did. Like when Obama got in, Mitch McConnell immediately tried to make him a failed president.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Yeah. I'm glad you mentioned that FBI forced retirement, the firing.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Well, that's a nice place to leave it. I'm sad we didn't have your birds this time to at least give us some, you know, cheery chirping in the background.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Thank you for coming on, Michael. I really appreciate your insight. And unfortunately, I feel like your expertise will be much needed in the months ahead. So we'll be talking to you soon. Anytime. All right. Thanks again also to James Carvell. Happy Mardi Gras, everybody. We'll see you back here tomorrow for another edition of the Borg Podcast. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
When Biden got in, Trump immediately started calling him Dementia Joe and saying he was illegitimate and all that. And so I don't know why we couldn't learn a little bit from those guys.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
You know what? I hear you. Well, let's talk about a process. I mean, I do think that there's a practical... The main practical opposition I have to it, I think, is that the Democratic voters are going to fucking revolt if they don't see something. And you do have to be responsive to your own voters.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Yeah, that's true.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
That really is. There were two things I wanted to ask you about, just like tactically, like what, like where the rubber meets the road on this, on this strategy. So you're not saying that the Democrats should bail them out in, in the March and the March budget. What do you, what are you saying?
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
The Hakeem thing, it's interesting. They might have a plan now. I do think that they were thinking about negotiating. There was discussions of a negotiation and a deal. Then I think the Elon stuff happened with Doge and all the insanity of the last two months. I do think something's congealing.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
There's just news this morning that there was a private meeting where Hakeem was asking members if they were willing to negotiate you know, stick with opposing Doge and opposing this, any Republican budget all the way to a shutdown.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
drops 15 20 points hence the beads getting tossed at the skin chucked at the cyber truck elon musk doge yeah he was asking members right like i had moskowitz on to discuss this and basically the point is even if they wanted to negotiate on a budget you can't do it as long as elon musk is illegally firing people and and shutting down the veterans affairs department as we were reporting on this morning in the bulwark and all the like so you can't even you know
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
negotiate with them until they agree that they would abide by whatever came out of the negotiation. As such, the question is, will the caucus hold together and not vote on anything? And it seems like the answer is yes, which is encouraging, actually.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Yeah. Well, I'm not interested in any six-month deals, but we'll talk about it once we see what comes.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
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The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
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The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
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The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
I want to get back to the shitty economy, but just one more tactical question on the Democrats before we do, because tonight is an example, right? There's this address to Congress and this, there were two notes I saw on the news this morning. And one of them made me think, you know, maybe James is onto something because it may be as a James and AOC are on the same page on one thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
AOC's view was, I think maybe I should just skip the, Speech tonight, Trump relies on spectacle, she said. She feels uncomfortable legitimizing what he's doing. I'll just watch it on TV. There's some other Democrats who told Axios they're planning to disrupt the speech using noisemakers and hand clappers and eggs and signs.
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
And that was just imagining that image in my head made me think, you know, maybe I actually want them to do less. Maybe AOC is on the right page here. Go home, tweet about it. let him make an ass of himself. Where are you?
The Bulwark Podcast
James Carville and Michael Weiss: The Whole Country Could Go Under
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is becoming a Mardi Gras tradition. I'm here today on this Mardi Gras morning with the raging Cajun himself, James Carville, former veteran Democratic strategist, co-host of the Politics War Room podcast. He's also a competitor in the YouTube space. You've had some YouTube videos going mega viral lately, man.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
So in this case, you know, it's like, I mean, I guess, thank God, some of these guys are staying around to try to, you know, keep an eye on things, at least as long as it's possible.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
All right. I'm putting in an order for the captive mind. I guess I'll turn to that after the gay fiction that I'm currently reading as a respite from all of this. But it seems probably something that will be of value. I had somebody email me just the other day after JBL wrote his piece about them staying in. And he's like, isn't this opposite of what you, me, Tim had written in your book, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Because I was criticizing a lot of my friends who were politicals who had stuck around and they had rationalized sticking around in Trump 1.0 because they're like, if I leave, you won't believe the idiot that's going to come behind me. Like my point was always like your job isn't that important, right, to somebody.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
If you're the press staffer at Treasury, like it doesn't matter really if a groiper replaces you. And we're in a different kind of situation now, right? Like the people in charge of our data at the Treasury Department, right, are not the same as like some mid-level political staffer or PR staffer. Like I just think the choice is a lot more complicated in some of these situations.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
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The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
And I bet you're looking for a way to keep that big game interesting. It's almost here, coming up on Sunday, right here in New Orleans. Nobody's tried to make their parasocial relationship with me real by offering me a ticket to the big game yet. That's just something I'm monitoring. But for the rest of us sitting on the couch, those of us who don't have a ticket, you want to make it interesting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
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The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
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The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
So when you got a big game like the one this weekend with a couple teams that aren't particularly sympathetic, doing a little daily fantasy to keep it interesting, spice it up. That's something that I'm going to be doing because... What other option do you have? Who do you have to root for?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
So, download the app today and use the code BULLWORK to get $50 instantly after you play your first $5 lineup. That's right. Download the app today and use code BULLWORK to get $50 off instantly after you play your first $5 lineup. Prize picks. Run your game. one thing we didn't get into at the top talking about must parallels is right there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
There's some ways in which he's just so sui generis, but I was thinking about Hungary and about like his ownership of X Twitter. Right. And like how, in addition to being a government contractor, right. In addition to a donor, he also is the owner of a major, uh, media platform.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
And you see this to a much lesser degree, obviously, with the way that Zuckerberg and Bezos have started to coddle up to Trump. You see it to a little bit greater degree from the LA Times owner and the way he is. Talk about that parallel with Musk and what we've seen about co-opting media institutions. Then we can get into the view of all this from Europe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
So it was a... I think, yeah, also some immigrant stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
It was actually a big initiative during the Bush administration, getting faith-based organizations involved in government. Conservatives just before that, Christian conservatives were for that for a while.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Let's talk about the USAID and then I'll get to the Europe stuff because, again, this is another thing that's illegal. I worry that the phrase illegal is – people are going to start – will no longer have the impact with people because they just will hear this word like another illegal action by the Trump administration. It loses its –
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
emphasis because it's like, I saw somebody post something yesterday that was like, I don't think that the founders anticipated a system where one rich guy comes in and does a bunch of illegal stuff. And then the president just says, shut up a nerd when you complain about it. And that's like, kind of like the situation we're in, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Like they just, when there's a firehouse of illegal stuff, then it's like hard to focus on which illegal action is something worth protesting. I think With regards to USAID being shuttered and moved under state, I guess, we had a few things. The Russian government celebrating the closure of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Peter Morocco has been placed as the deputy administrator of USAID, I guess, in charge of it under Marco. He was inside the Capitol with rioters on January 6th. then we discussed yesterday a lot to this new undersecretary and secretary of state that will have some influence here, Darren Beatty. There was a new CNN article out this morning showing him praising the violence on January 6th.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I discussed his racist past on yesterday's podcast. I talk about that, and I guess this does also relate to sort of the view of us from Europe, but what the impact of all this is going to have.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Even the new Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, made that point, very point in 2017, defending this against the first round of Trump attacks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Freedom, like all the small liberal values.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
And just even at just a more practical level, like outside of kind of using the democracy world speak, you know, Mark Salter, who is McCain's speechwriter, always would talk about how when he'd travel around the world with him and then after he died and said that he was a speechwriter for McCain, worked for McCain, you'd hear from people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
that were dissidents, that were freedom fighters, that had fought autocracy in Eastern Europe, in Asia, other places, and they would have fond feelings. So there were pockets of people that had fond feelings of America and that soft power does matter. It mattered to them in their fight, but also it gave them a tangible thing to push back in internal politics. We shouldn't deal with the Chinese.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
We shouldn't deal with the Russians because we've seen how the outcomes are worse. So there's that tangible example of it. And then there is also Just the other side, just even looking at this from just the Trump perspective, it's like once you take away our values-based argument, then it's just like who can get theirs-based argument. And that's going to be a loser for us too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I mean, because the Chinese are going to be much more willing to give bags of cash than we are. They're going to be able to give a much better deal. If all this is is art of the deal all the way down, then that's going to be a loser for us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
This actually takes us back to the Europe article, right? That our values-based allies. So your article about the concerns from Europe about Musk. I had written down three things, right, that it relates to. That's probably more. But tariffs, like the EU is worried that maybe we'll get into economic war over them. Maybe a little less concerned today than yesterday. I'll I'll take the L on this one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Actually, I thought Trump was going to run through it. I still think he's going to have to eventually just for his little ego's sake. You know, you can't talk about how great tariffs are for years and then never do them. I wouldn't think. But who knows? Maybe that's why we don't have a Tim is always right T-shirt. But Europe has to be worried about the tariffs. Election interference.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Elon Musk, we've seen with AFD, but elsewhere, he's getting involved in elections. And then three, like the Internet company regulation issues. and how they have done more than we have here, and what Musk's involvement will mean for that. So take it any way you wish, but kind of like the view from what was once our values-based allies on what's happening over here with Musk and Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I Googled it myself. I was like, it was after the election, right? Yeah, it was in December. It was after the election. Yeah, it was in December.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
That's pretty minor. I would have maybe said just like banned the algorithmic element of this, right? Where Elon just can post and like people that follow him see it, but like where it's not being promoted into their feed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Yeah, a couple threads I want to pull there, but since you went the direction of the extra legality, there's a more niche story that I've been following that I want to raise with you because I think it just demonstrates the scope of just what is happening to the rule of law in this country as far as Elon Musk is concerned. The new D.C. attorney is a guy named Ed Martin, Eagle Ed Martin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
This time of year, a good hoodie is essential. Well, if you live north of New Orleans. It's still hoodie weather here a little bit, but the days are running short on hoodie weather. I love that. But for the rest of y'all suffering through long winters that go all the way through April, you need a good hoodie. You need something that's going to last that long, dark season.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
And the American Giant Classic Full Zip Hoodie is made to last not just for this winter, but a lifetime for many winters to come. Slate Magazine called it the greatest hoodie ever made. And if you don't trust Slate, as I mentioned before, my husband has been a longtime fan of his...
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
american giant hoodie so it was thrilled that we got american giant as a new sponsor so we could get a couple different styles and update the brand you know i i've never worn his hoodie sometimes i borrow his clothes one of the nice things about being gay is the shared wardrobe but i hadn't borrowed his hoodie before hadn't tried it on i've been pretty worn in he put a lot of work in on that american giant hoodie so when i got the new one i was interested to try it out i was interested to see you know if it lived up to the hype and i gotta tell you it did
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I got to tell you, it's very comfy, you know, lightweight, breathable. Put it on in the morning if you're a little hungover, feel nice and cozy. Highly recommend. The iconic classic full zip hoodie is the jacket that started it all for American Giant. Custom heavyweight fleece and side panels for mobility made it the best hoodie ever. It also had a body skimming fit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
with a double-lined hood and reinforced elbow patches that mean that hoodie will last. But they got a bunch of other kinds, different weights. They also have the premium Slub Crew tee. I got a long-sleeve tee from them. You might have seen me wearing out on the Bulwark tour. I'm digging it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
So this season, snag the hoodie that will bring you comfort for life, the American Giant Classic Full Zip, and save 20% off your first order at American-Giant.com when you use code BULWARK at checkout. That's 20% off your first order at American-Giant.com, code BULWARK. Did you have any other additional thoughts on the trade war bluff and impact?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
He was a Phyllis Schlafly acolyte. He has a partisan hack. He really has no... He does not have anywhere near the type of resume for such an important post as what should be a nonpolitical post. He put out a statement yesterday talking about investigating. And I think the statement comes across my my transom. And I was like, oh, man, there's there's a U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Here we go. We're giving you 12 Mounties in exchange for the tariffs they've taken away. It's an interesting deal. That's right. A little short of becoming the 51st state, you know, if we're grading deals.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
The base doesn't even care. That's why I was wrong on this one. I'll admit it. Well, maybe I won't be. We'll see what happens in a month. But like... The base doesn't care about this. Trump is the only one that cares about this. So does he just like the, maybe he just likes the theater of it, but I don't know. I mean, he seems to really like it. We'll find out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
But I assume that European countries, it does have real implications because if you're like looking to invest in, you know, some multinational corporation that's going to have a product that's moving over multiple borders, like why would you do it right now until you understood what's, what is actually going to happen?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
The scary sleeping nationalism of Canada. I don't think they'll be Canadian separatists, but, you know, I don't know, maybe they'll just start manufacturing more stuff in Canada instead of from us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
On Tulsi, it seems like she's going to get confirmed. There was some – this one I was right on, so one for two. There was some chatter over the weekend that Tulsi was in trouble, that these normie Republican senators had very deep concerns and were going to stand up to the nomination. Well, in the last 24 hours, Susan Collins –
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
James Lankford of Oklahoma, who did the immigration deal with the Democrats last time. Todd Young of Indiana, who's kind of been buzzed about as maybe a secret normie. All of them said that they're voting for Tulsi. And so it seems like we're heading down a path towards her being confirmed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I don't know if that has any impact as well on our allies as far as intelligence sharing and gathering, but it does seem like another factor if you're one of them looking at how much you can trust us. Putting an Assad and Putin apologist in charge of intelligence isn't probably great.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
attorney that's investigating what Elon Musk is doing. That's great. I'm glad someone's doing that. And then I had to give it a second look. And I was like, no, Ed Martin is going to be opening investigation or says he is at least this might just be a PR stunt into the people that are blocking Elon Musk.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Even having that conversation is not great. They're having meetings about it now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
And then just the latest on Ukraine. There was an article yesterday. I didn't get a lot of attention because there's a lot happening. But Trump, I guess, considering a deal on U.S. access to Ukrainian rare earth metals in exchange for additional aid. His idea had been floated by Zelensky in October. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I guess being open to aid, even as part of some cockamamie deal, is probably better than nothing. But I'm wondering what your sense is of that and what the view is from folks in Kyiv.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Yeah. Yeah, that's how I'm answering it, too. Things are doing great inside this home. Once we get outside the home, it gets dicier and dicier. Your most recent piece for The Atlantic is called Europe's Elon Musk Problem. If you'd indulge my Yankee myopia, I'd like to begin by discussing America's Elon Musk problem, and then we can back into the Europe side of things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
from getting access to these types of, you know, either the treasury documents or at USAID, things that are classified, you know, with some of these efforts that are unclassified. In addition to that, there was a tweet by CaptiveDreamer7, which is like an anonymous MAGA account with a MAGA hat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
We need to share more inspiring Ukrainian stories here. That's good. I'm happy that you shared that as needed. All right, final question was recommended from a friend. We're now... what, three weeks in? It's been the longest three weeks of our life. Is it only two weeks? I think it's only two weeks. It's been the longest three weeks of our life and it's only been two weeks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
How does it meet expectations as far as the authoritarian threat or tyrannical threat for you? Is it as bad, worse? How far down the trail to urbanism do you feel like we are? Have we already shot past it? How would you rank it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I mean, you wrote a book called Gulag. So, you know, so we're not we're not all the way. We're not we're not all the way to Gulag.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
He tweeted at Ed Martin saying that Martin should investigate Twitter user Will Stansel for criticizing Elon Musk. Martin replied, thank you, noted.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
All right. Well, we've all got some work to do. Thank you so much, Anne, for yours. I appreciate you for coming on the podcast again. And as often as you're willing, we'll be having you back. So thanks so much.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow. Maybe somebody that can be a little bit of fun. We get to have fun every once in a while, right? Maybe we can have a fun guest tomorrow. We'll see what you think. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Not only is Elon acting with impunity and outside of the law, right now we have the prominent new appointee who is in charge with upholding the law, not only not looking into Elon's actions, but claiming that he's going to be looking into anyone that even speaks ill of Elon or does anything to block what the Doge team is doing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
The Borg Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Yeah, he said that it was illegal. I forget if he replied to Wired himself or to someone else that was treating their names and saying, this is illegal. And again, if this was just... some, you know, Iron Man trillionaire, like running SpaceX outside the government popping off on Twitter about how people criticizing him are breaking the law. I mean, there's plenty of precedent for that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
But given the type of access that he has had, and the fact that that's now apparently there are US attorneys, at least one US attorney willing to do his bidding, these types of threats against journalists that are reporting about the people that are
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
working inside the government in very prominent roles and against the government officials that you mentioned that are trying to just follow the law and follow their duty by making sure that protocols are followed. That's alarming.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Because there's a New York Times story out this morning inside Musk's aggressive incursion into the federal government. They write, there's no precedent for a government official to have Mr. Musk's scale of conflicts of interest, which includes domestic holdings and foreign connections.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Let's talk about that, the folks that are at some level... I hate to use the word resist, but just resisting the extralegal demands of Musk and others. What are some of your thoughts and parallels on that front? I mean, and you have obviously done reporting and talked to people in Eastern Europe, other places where this sort of bullying and kleptocracy is commonplace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
My colleague JVL wrote, I think, end of last week about how folks should be staying in their jobs. I understand the opposite view. impulse right of wanting to get out of the line of fire i understand the impulse of wanting to be a whistleblower like what what are tactics that you think are sensible facing a threat such as this
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
And there's no precedent for someone who is not a full-time employee to have such ability to reshape the federal workforce. One agency official said before Congress and the courts can respond, Elon Musk will have rolled up the whole government. I'm curious your thoughts on that and parallels to what we've seen elsewhere.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I've been following this. Just one little note on this. The acting FBI director... There's this kind of this top layer. I talked to Andrew Weissman about this on Friday of people that were essentially dismissed over the weekend of people that were involved in investigations against Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
But then the follow-up request was to either remove or freeze, I forget the exact phrasing, a much broader swath of FBI agents that had been involved at any level in the Trump investigations. And the acting FBI director basically said no, like sent out a memo to everybody about what their rights are and staying in the job. But okay, well, Kash Patel is about to be confirmed any day, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
So like what that looks like in a couple of days, I don't know. But like we have seen some of that already in the case of this acting FBI director.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Unfortunately, we have to bring back an expert on autocracy because that is our world right now. She's a staff writer at The Atlantic. Her books include Autocracy, Inc., The Dictators Who Want to Run the World, Twilight of Democracy, and the Pulitzer Prize-winning Gulaga History. It's Anne Applebaum. How are you doing, Anne?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I just had someone forward me from a state university system an email that went out that said justice was also a word that was being taken down from the website. And that's pretty ominous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
And it may be arbitrary and capricious, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Yeah, maybe you aren't even fired. Maybe you just have to be bullied by a 19-year-old until you can't bear it anymore. There's one example of this I want to read from Josh Marshall. He wrote on the question of doxing, you're mentioning this, how Musk was going after the Wired and others for mentioning the names of the young technocrats, not technocrats, what does Marshall calls them?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Gizmocrats, the young Musk acolytes that are now running roughshod over the government. And he writes, I was talking to staffers today, detailing one situation where one of the most people is rewriting the code base of one of the U S government's most mission critical computer systems.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
As it was described to me, the staff programmers who used to manage the code and system are sort of helping him because they're terrified. He's going to go haywire, but also begging him to be careful. Meanwhile, they only know this guy is Fred.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
So you have this crazy situation in addition to all the other absurdity of them trying to help or beg Fred to be careful, but they don't even know who Fred actually is. It might be a different name. So that's what's happening right now in the federal government.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Yeah, that's a good summary. I agree with basically every sentence in that, I guess with one caveat. I do think that we are, you know, at least in some ways still trying to challenge Iran and being hostile there. And I guess that like gets us into Signalgate, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
So before we get to kind of the, you know, Yacobi Sachs execution of it, I am wondering just what you thought about the broader policy with regards to kind of Yemen and countering Iran in the region.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
last night that you can go listen to over on YouTube or on the Bulwark Takes podcast feed. And so I just want kind of programming note on that. And then I want to expand on my points.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Ja, es ist interessant, dass du das mit dem JD bringst, weil das ist, wo ich nächstes Mal gehen werde. Wenn du dich an diese Signal-Text-Chain schaust, waren es die Vizepräsidenten, die substanzielle Politik-Argumente, aufgrund von, wie es scheint, einem tiefen persönlichen Verleumdung für unsere europäischen Allies, die er und der Staatssekretär der Verteidigung hatten.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Und war das die Sache, die dir am meisten von der echten Substanz des Text-Exchanges herausgekommen ist?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
The Bulwark Takes feed, like I've had some when we were at our event in Phoenix and people were really excited about it, loving it because they kind of want to hear our reaction to all the horrors as they are happening. I've heard from other people that it's like I can't live like this and hear about this stuff every minute. I got to tell you, I get it. I totally understand on all counts of this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Crazy. I want to get into Europe more, but just the biggest picture on the text chain. You had Walt's job at one point. There's a new story out there. Just a little bit ago about, I guess, two U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
officials have said that Waltz created and hosted multiple other sensitive national security conversations on Signal with cabinet members, including separate threads on how to broker peace between Russia and Ukraine, as well as other military operations. And just like the existence of this is crazy.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Having been in that chair, just talk about why this is just so outside the norm and what struck you about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Ich nehme all das Beste davon, auf das Aufmerksamkeit und, weißt du, versuchen, das Rekordsgesetz zu vermeiden. I want to get back to our friend Marco, but the Hegseth Exchange was the one that struck me the most. And I've never been on these type of deliberations. Our audience hasn't for the most part. So you have. And so I'm just wondering what you made of it. He seems to be trying very hard.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
And, you know, we're here. I'm here. I'm serving y'all. So if we're doing stuff that isn't serving you, you don't don't let take a break, like take a day off, take a couple days off. Whatever. And there's some people that want the quick takes because that's all they have time for, right? Some people just really want to know what's happening minute by minute. I get that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
It's just like, I can't imagine Bob Gates or... Leon Panetta, like feeling like they, you know, doing all caps, pathetic, talking with the Europeans or like giving specific details on a chain such as this, feeling like he needed everybody's approval. I don't know. It just read like somebody in way over his head to me. I don't know what you made of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
How would those conversations actually work? For people that haven't been in them. You're trying to make a decision. Bob Gates is trying to read you in on where it is. Are they all happening in a secure phone call? How did that work?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Others just, you know, want to listen to me on their daily constitutional. Whatever works for you, I think that you should be... um sicherzustellen, dass dies dir und deinen Bedürfnissen dient. Ich unterstütze das hundertprozentig und wenn es etwas gibt, das wir besser machen können, dann lasst es mich wissen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
I want to get back to Marco, who you referenced, Secretary of State. Your former colleague Ben Rhodes wrote this. I thought he summed it up pretty well.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
The Rubio legacy to date, he's ended USAID, democracy funding, he's terminated Radio Marti, which is a Cuban radio station that was funded in part by USAID, mass deportation of Cubans and Venezuelans, anti-free speech policies that mirror the Cuban Communist Party, Great Investment, Florida Hardliners. It is pretty remarkable. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Mein Versuch, meine Bedürfnisse zu dienen, ich habe das gesagt, ich denke, in der ersten Podcast mit JVL und Sarah nach Trump 1 war, dass die einzige Art, mit der ich mit diesem nächsten vier Jahren von Nonsens zu tun habe, ist, dass ich mich um was ich kümmere. Ja, genau. going to be the determining factor on who wins the Colorado 7th District next year in November in 16 months.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Rubio had to be a type of person that you had some overlap with policy-wise when you were back in the Obama administration, certainly not across the board, but on some of these types of issues, USAID, people fleeing communism, rights of people fleeing communism. What do you make of just a total abdication of all of those past views from the Secretary of State?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
I'll be a little more impolite because, look, we can have some disagreements on foreign policy and the right approach to, you know, the situation with the Houthis or whatever. Like, it is sick what we've been doing with these folks that are fleeing communism. Like, that is central to Marco's past, central to, as a former Republican, former
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Neocon, central to our worldview about America's role protecting freedom in the world, being a shining city on the hill for people fleeing oppression and communism, that we are taking people that fled communism and sending them to a gulag in a different country is about as un-American as anything I can imagine and he's essentially the point person for this policy.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Hey guys, it's Tim. I've got a little programming note for you and a monologue about some of the news that has come out overnight with regards to the El Salvador prison. So first up, we had Susan Rice today. She was great. We taped her podcast yesterday. Part of the reason I'm doing this monologue is that we were cut a little short, but here's the thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Ich fühle mich, dass es ein bisschen weniger Ausrufe von den Demokraten auf dieses Thema gab, als ich es auf andere gesehen habe. Weißt du, was du davon machst? Sind Leute Angst vor der Immigration, dass sie ein politischer Verlierer sind? Was machst du davon?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Let's talk about the European view really quick. My colleague Jonathan Last wrote yesterday about how Europe has to take the situation with Greenland and what we've seen in these signal chats very seriously. Possibly might impact their thinking on their own nuclear umbrella, their own defense posture, having to go alone without the US. Obviously, you talked to former counterparties in Europe.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
What do you make of their You know, the bind that they're in right now when it comes to our allyship or our one-time allyship.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Untertitelung. BR 2018 Untertitelung.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
I think that my obligations are higher than that. And so to that point, all we have in this world is like our ability to control our own choices and to try to influence things in the way that we can and either in our communities or using our platforms, etc. And I'm going to do that no matter what. Ich glaube, das ist politisch, was auch immer, nützlich. Ich obsesioniere mich über das gerade.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020 Untertitelung. BR 2018 Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Ich denke, es ist wirklich dumm. Und in diesem Fall, im Fall des El Salvador Gulag, wenn es ein 20%-Issue war, ich habe das am Twitter am letzten Tag gesagt, du könntest mich Mr. 20 nennen, weil ich keine Angst habe, wenn es ein 20%-Issue ist. Das ist falsch.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Und ich hätte ein Tattoo, das Mr. 20 gesagt hätte, aber ich wäre besorgt, dass sie mich dann schackeln und mich auf ein Flugzeug in San Salvador senden. Also keine mehr Tattoos für mich. Aber hier ist die gute Nachricht für euch. Es gab ein Poll über das. It turns out I'm not Mr. 20. You guys aren't, because I know I've been hearing from you and you agree with me. We're Mr. and Mrs. 47.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020 Untertitelung. BR 2018
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Americans oppose the deportations of Venezuelan migrants without hearings by double digits, 47% to 35%, according to an Economist YouGov poll. Most notably, only 32% of Republicans said they believed that the deported Venezuelans are actually all gang members, as the administration claims. Only one in three Republicans believe that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
in third countries, either Mexico or Colombia, applying, going through the process. As you mentioned, some of them came to the border, but then said they had an asylum claim. They used the CBP1 app that the Trump administration shut down, but was the legal way to kind of get a hearing during the Biden administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
So, like a lot of the pushback that you saw from Victoria Spartz this weekend was like, these guys are illegal, you don't get due process if you come illegally. But I know the folks you talked to, and it seems like, did they all or at least most of them were trying to come through legal pathways?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Let's talk about some of these cases in particular. Since you mentioned Neri Alvarado, we'll start with him. Folks will be familiar because we've been talking about him. This is the guy that had the autism awareness tattoo, kind of like the rainbow ribbon tattoo. Talk about his case.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
And a majority of Americans said they thought that the administration is making many or some mistakes in its deportations. So, this goes back to what we were talking about with Bill yesterday, Joe Rogan. I don't know. I mean, I have a pretty low view of my fellow Americans for putting this fucking moron back into the White House again.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Das ist ziemlich die Cover für ein Gangmitglied, du weißt, volunteering at a youth autism, you know, swimming meet camp. He was the one that you guys specifically said, I guess you said Hernandez spoke to Alvarado, was that Hernandez's boss? Yes, that's right, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Yeah, so his boss spoke to him before he was sent to El Salvador and he said, there are 90 of us here, we all have tattoos, we are all detained for the same reasons, from what they told me, we are all going to be deported. So that's like a first person statement. Das war das, was sie ihnen sagten. Diese Tattoos waren der Grund, warum sie nach El Salvador gebracht wurden. Das war die Grundlage.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
You lead the story with another example of Arturo Trejo. Arturo Suarez Trejo. He has a three month old child and is a singer. I guess you spoke to his wife and also a similar situation where no criminal record, this is all based on the tattoos. Talk about that conversation.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
But I don't have such a low view as to think that we cannot convince people that it's bad to send gay makeup artists to a torture dungeon in another fucking country with no due process and no ability to appeal. I don't know. I don't know that we're quite there yet as far as the depravity of our neighbors and our fellow Americans. So that was a little bit of good news.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
In dieser Geschichte war es so, dass sie gesagt hat, dass sie, wenn sie getötet wird, zumindest wenn sie zurück nach Venezuela kommt, dass sie ihr Baby sehen kann. Und stattdessen hat sie ihn zu einem Gulag gesendet.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Are there any other examples? I mean, you talked about this Frizz Gareth William. I mean, just talk about any of the other specific folks who you spoke to, their families.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
The bad news is that this administration isn't doing anything about Kilmar Abrego Garcia. They shook him down when he's going to pick up his child from his mother-in-law's house, the kid's grandmother's house. They cuffed him. They sent him on this plane to San Salvador and then on a bus and then to this terrorist prison. He hasn't been able to contact his lawyers.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Ja, es ist irgendwie verrückt, dass du zu zehn Leuten sprichst, oder, du weißt, oder Familienmitglieden, oder Lehrer, oder was auch immer, die zehn von den Leuten, die dort gesendet wurden.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Es sieht nicht so aus, als ob die eine, die die größte Aufmerksamkeit hat, die wir viel darüber gesprochen haben, ist dieser Make-up-Artist, André, und er ist nicht in deiner Geschichte, also ist das eine andere Person. In diesen Gesprächen, wenn du jemandem sprichst und du sagst, ich weiß nicht, dieser Typ könnte ein Gangmitglied sein. Ich meine, es ist schwer zu glauben.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Und es ist eine Sache, zu sagen, dass ein oder zwei Leute durchgekommen sind. Wir müssen uns auf diese Geschichten konzentrieren. Es war ein Fuck-up. Wir mussten den Make-up-Artist nach Hause bringen. Und ich glaube das. Es ist eine Sache, wenn es auf der Ebene ist, dass potenziell viele dieser Leute falsch verurteilt werden. Was ist dein Sinn dafür?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Und wir haben gesehen, dass die DHS-Vorsitzende, Trisha McLaughlin, Dinge sendet. Und ich denke, das ist wichtig, weil das ist, was die Regierung jetzt sagt. Sie hat quasi getweetet oder was auch immer, verschiedene Leute online, die haben gesagt, dass diese Fälle sehr schwach aussehen, indem sie sagt, oh nein, wir haben mehr Beweise. Wir haben mehr Beweise. Es sind nicht nur die Tattoos.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Und sie hat Dinge in diesem Bereich gesagt. Und ich denke, das hat an einem gewissen Niveau einen kühlen Effekt auf die Menschen, die sprechen. Particularly politicians speaking out. I think that there is a concern.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
You know, if you're a democratic politician, you're like, I don't want to stick my neck out and have then it come afterwards that the person that I was saying was wrongfully detained actually was a gang member in China or actually committed a rape or whatever. And so I think that they're like kind of vague assurances that, no, they've got more material and all these people is contributing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
So I don't know. And what is your guys opinion? Und ich denke, das ist die wichtige Sache, um immer mehr von diesen Geschichten zu erzählen, weil es diese Aufmerksamkeit gibt, wenn man darüber sprechen muss.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
He hasn't been able to contact his family. It is just an unbelievable nightmare. It's an unimaginable nightmare. You think like to be him or to be a spouse, having your spouse just be snatched off the street when they've done nothing wrong. He had no criminal record here. The thing that you see that the administration is now saying is that, A, they don't have jurisdiction, which is such bullshit.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
And just to be clear, even since your story is out, you've not heard from any spokesperson in the government, anybody at DHS, like offering more tangible evidence that these people are criminals beyond the tattoos. Zero on or off the record. Nothing. Truly remarkable. Guys, thank you so much for your work. Noah and Isabella, we'll keep monitoring as you guys are covering this story.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
And we'll talk to you soon. All right. Thanks for having us on, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
All right, thanks to everybody. It was going to be a shorter pod with Susan Rice. And here you go. You got a marathon. You got a good show, long show. Call your senators. Get mad about what is happening and what we're doing to people who absolutely do not deserve it and deserve due process. I'd appreciate it. It's a solid for me. We'll be back here tomorrow.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
We're going to talk a lot tomorrow about the elections. We got election night. So if you are in Wisconsin. If you're in the 6th District in Florida there, from St. Augustine, give or take, down to about Daytona Beach on the Atlantic coast of Florida, or if you know somebody in one of those places, remind them to vote.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
It's Election Day in America, and we'll be back tomorrow with Sam Stein to break that all down and whatever other horrors the Trump administration has for us. So we'll see you all then.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
We're paying El Salvador to hold these guys. So I think we have jurisdiction. That'd be like me hiring a babysitter to watch my daughter. And then if something bad happens, we'd be like, I have no jurisdiction over what happens there. It's like, what are you talking about? We are paying for them to hold these people. So we do have jurisdiction. But that's what they're saying.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
My mother always said we went on vacation to a new city. She's like, you don't want to see all the sites on your first trip to the city. You want to leave yourself wanting more. So I think that's nice. I left myself wanting a little more with Susan Rice.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
And the other thing they're saying is that this person might not have been trained to Aragua. Because remember, we did the Alien Enemies Act because we're at war, supposedly, with trained to Aragua. That's why we can go around the Constitution to invoke these extreme measures, because this is a supposed war that we're in with this Nicaraguan gang, excuse me, Venezuelan gang.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
They don't even claim that this guy is in that gang. They do claim that he was a member of MS-13, based on some 2019 filing where another person My comment is, according to the court document you apparently didn't read, he was a convicted MS-13 gang member with no legal right to be here.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
My further comment is that it's gross to get fired up about gang members getting deported while ignoring citizens they victimized. This guy didn't fucking victimize anybody. He is not a criminal. J.D. Vance might really have come to admire Putin and despise Putin. Our European friends, as they said in that text message with Pete Hegseth.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
But in liberal democracies, in free countries, there is a difference between accusation and conviction. When J.D. says that he was a convicted MS-13 gang member, I don't even know what that means. We don't convict people for being gang members. But he hasn't been convicted of anything. The judge gave him protected status during the Trump-1-Administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
So, like, it was a time when Trump had jurisdiction over immigration. They ruled that this person was a gang member. Do they have new evidence? They're not even claiming to present new evidence. They're not saying that they have anything. Like, they're just saying that Donald Trump and J.D.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
We can go deep on Benghazi or the nature of the Western world order at another time, but she is just really, really good on Mike Waltz and the comedy of errors of the man that is in the job she once held for President Obama. So, That's coming up next.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Vance have the right to send a dad with a disabled kid, who's an American citizen, by the way, to a fucking gulag, and that we just have to say, okay, yes, sir. I mean, it is Stalin-esque behavior. It's like we're, you know, sending people to Siberia with no recourse. And J.D. Vance is unapologetic about it. He's totally wrong. There was no conviction.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
In the later tweet he talked about how this was a Biden-administration thing. He was wrong about that. He had to edit his tweet to change it. Like, these guys are just making shit up as they go along. Here's Conor Lamb.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
The VP is lying about a building trades union member who a judge ordered not to be removed, never committed a crime in 14 years and has a five-year-old, is now trapped in a Salvadoran prison no one can get out of. Catholics, union members, believers in the Constitution, take note. I agree. Thank you, Conor Lamb, for speaking clearly about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
The spokesperson for the White House was before this all came out, but there have been other stories, obviously, that we've been covering of people. And at this point... Und wir geben noch einen Teil dazu, eine Bonus-Interview, die ich gestern gemacht habe mit den Berichtern von Mother Jones, die von zehn diesen Familienmitgliedern gesprochen haben, von den Leuten, die da sind.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Und sie sagten, wir haben durch die Liste geschaut und gesehen, dass es kriminelle Verhältnisse auf eine Minderheit der Leute gab. Aber sie sprachen zu zehn Familienmitgliedern und sie sagten, du weißt nur, was du von Berichten wissen kannst, aber sie sehen keine Beweise, dass any of these ten people are gang members. Now, this Maryland person was not included in that, Kilmar Garcia.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Andre, the makeup artist, wasn't included in that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
There's a New Yorker article out today on Andre that says that Andre's lawyers believed that actually the guy that was yelling, that we talked about before, who was crying, who was crying for his mother, screaming out, I'm a gay barber, their lawyers think that's maybe somebody else, because they don't think Andre would describe himself as a barber, as a makeup artist. And so...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Who the hell knows? Maybe they got two gays down there. So anyway, here is Caroline Levitt with her cross necklace discussing the people that we've sent to this hellhole yesterday and whether they are actually doing vetting to verify that these people are gang members or criminals.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Last night there was an Atlantic story, I'm sure many of you have probably seen, that I'm going to get into more here in a second, about Kilmore Abrego Garcia. He's a man in Maryland, father of two. His five-year-old has a severe disability, autism, he can't speak. He's been here since he was 16 years old. He's fleeing the gangs in El Salvador.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Oh yeah, she's so outraged. She's so outraged. Oh, how dare you? How dare you? These people are gang members. This is sick. It is incumbent upon them to demonstrate that these people are criminals. This is not how things work in a free country. You just get to shout down, it's Andrew Feinberg's reporter, a good reporter over there. She's shouting down, shame on you, shame on you. No, shame on you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
It is incumbent upon you Ich weiß nicht, was die politischen Voraussetzungen davon sind, aber... This is the grossest thing we've done in a long time. Bill and I were talking about this in a lot of ways. Everybody remembers, when I was growing up, I remember the Abu Ghraib scandal and how massive that scandal was. It was horrible. It was just a nightmare, what we did.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
This is worse in a lot of ways. And these are people that are here legally, that have family members that are legal, that did nothing, that we are sending to another country we don't even have. There's no oversight. There's no recourse. At least in that case, I've agreed, there were brave people within the administration that were whistleblowing, that were speaking out.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
We don't have that option here. What we're doing here is the worst thing that this country has done in a long, long time. And I'm not going to turn away from it or focus on whatever, kitchen table issues or Donald Trump's third term, whatever other stupid shit people want to talk about. So that's that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
You guys are hoarders, if that's true. Back in the 1960s, the average American would buy 25 items a year. Today we buy 67. We buy two and a half times more clothes, yet only keep them half as long. We are buying more than we need. American Giant believes more doesn't always mean better. The clothes work harder. Vielen Dank.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Somehow we lumped him in with the Venezuelans and claimed he was trended to Aragua and sent him back to...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
I bought a t-shirt off of one of those random Google t-shirt sites the other day, because I wanted something cheeky to wear to an event. And two washes, and that thing's already ready for the dumpster. So that's not the case with American Giant. You're going to buy something that feels sturdy, looks good, it's manufactured right here in the USA. So... Das ist 20% off when you use code BULLWORK
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
Hallo und willkommen zu The Bulwark Podcast. Ich bin euer Host Tim Miller. Ich bin begeistert, dich wieder zu begrüßen. Sie hat als Nationalsecurity Advisor und Ambassador der Vereinigten Nationen während der Obama-Administration gearbeitet. Sie war Biden's Chief Domestic Policy Advisor for two and a half years. It's Susan Rice. How are you doing?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1011: Susan Rice: This Is Bloody Serious
El Salvador to this gulag and the story is awful but what the Atlantic reported is that it was a mistake and the government actually in a court filing admitted that it was a mistake that this was not a person that was meant to be sent there but said that we can't do anything now because he's in El Salvador's custody. So I fired off a rage take about that at about 1 a.m.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
So I think going after that and I guess going after the Republicans for being phony. It does create a pickle here on this whole thing. Right. It's just like the whole thing is ridiculous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I mean, that you have Tom Tillis, you have corporate Republicans out there being like, boy, I really love this guy that sued companies on behalf of environmentalists, sued pharmaceutical companies on behalf of anti-vax kooks. So maybe going after them instead of going after. RFK and trying to wedge is a better strategy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Because I hear you, like defending the status quo is not really a winner for Democrats. You saw Polis try to navigate this a little bit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
There were no survivors. The collision was between a passenger jet coming in from Wichita and an Army helicopter. As we're coming on here, I believe still happening in the Brady briefing room is Donald Trump and J.D. Vance talking about this, the I want to play one clip from the president talking about what he thinks was the reason that this crash happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
It is a couple other thoughts are coming to me as you say that, like on the one hand, I do think vaccinations are just broadly, generally popular. I know that, you know, maybe just focusing on the reemergence of the whooping cough is something that is, that is useful. I do wonder though, like, is there a way just to sort of reframe this whole thing back to, back to him being a Kennedy? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
These guys like Trump and Kennedy, they're pretending that they're going after the status quo, but they're not really. They're taking cash for themselves. They've now aligned themselves with the richest men in the world. I don't know. I'm just spitballing live here. But I do think maybe that's a more fruitful line than, I guess, going after him for being a kook. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
It has to be somewhat appealing to you, though, when you think about the incoming administration, that you do have a far-left polygamist environmentalist, right? And you have somebody representing Aloha in Hawaii. It's kind of a woke cabinet. It is. Spirit of Aloha. Let's talk about Tulsi for a second.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Some of the reporting people in The Hill say that they're concerned about Tulsi, but Tulsi had Tom Cotton doing the intro for her. I mean, if there was ever going to be somebody that was going to be opposed to her, it'd be that. She's totally flipped on all of the things like FISA that the national security Republicans don't like. So, I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I'm wondering what you think about the Tulsi nomination.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
You're not a daily listener of the pod. I take it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah, and then she spun for him, right? That's the other thing, right? Again, it's like, because that's the quick response you hear from her defenders, right? It's like, well, we should have open dialogue. It's like, okay, well, I mean, we can, I don't know. I'm probably less keen on open dialogue than you and Tulsi, but okay, that's fine. That's one thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But then it's like, you have the dialogue and then you come back and you are a propaganda tool for Assad, right? And that is the thing. And then our own intelligence services at the time, this is a story I was reading yesterday, right? said that they caught chatter of Hezbollah terrorists they were monitoring that were talking about how Tulsi was meeting with the big guy. So Joe Biden, I assume.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah, Joe Biden. Joe Biden, 10 for the big guy. It's always a question, who is the big guy out there? Who is the big guy? So many big guys. To me, it is just – it's absurd to think that – that national security Republicans would go along with this, but at this point, we've learned that they don't actually care about anything besides suckling up to Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But I guess as somebody that has actually had security briefings and been you know, kind of involved in these conversations where you're getting intelligence and trying to translate it and figure out, you know, how to use it, what to do with it. Like, what would be the legitimate concerns that people would have about somebody like Tulsi managing that process?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Well, I mean, she's probably the most in line with Donald Trump out of all the nominees as far as like processing intelligence. And what you like turning out something that you like. I mean, Tulsi like got tricked by gateway pundit. Right. And that's kind of what Trump's looking for.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I think in somebody that is going to take the craziest shit that advances his narrative that is out there in the ether and like presents that as the main narrative. And yeah, you know, blocks out or pushes out things that are contrary. Right. I mean, that's what her skillset is, I think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I guess I'm going to sound like a cliche, never Trump cuck, but it is noteworthy in these hearings I've had to suffer through. All of the controversial shit that is out there in MAGA world that we say are conspiracies and that they're like, no, I don't know. There's really something here. We're just asking questions about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Across the board on all of that stuff, these guys are flipping, right? I mean, Tulsi is flipping her view on Snowden and on the corruption within the intelligence community. RFK is flipping his view on vaccines. We're going to get to Cash next. He's flipped on the January 6th cop beaters. That trend, you would think, would be noticed at some point. The QAnon cash flipped on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
On all of these things, a generic MSNBC watching wine mom, who we love, who has no experience on anything, would have been more correct than the people that are now nominated to run these agencies who have now flipped their views to match the view of the generic MSNBC wine mom. I do think that's a noteworthy trend.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I guess it's black people and the people with mental health problems that caused this. He went on to say that Pete Buttigieg was a disaster who's just got a good line of bullshit. And he followed up that by saying, now we mourn and we pray. So thoughts on the president's reaction to this tragedy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Speaking of credulous, I'm just getting fucking pister and pister as we go on here today, Tommy. I'm going to have a fucking heart attack before the end of this administration. I'm just thinking back. I am still mad about the... about Trump and Vance. I'm just like, the more we talk about it, this was happening live. So I'm processing it live.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And the poor family members of these victims of this plane crash, like have to watch the president rant about DEI. Yeah. I mean, that's just the whole thing. It's pissing me off.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
All right, credulous. You talked about how credulous Tom Cotton was. He's got nothing on Jimmy Lankford and Tom Tillis. Here's James Lankford today. There's a social media, national media persona of who Cash is. And then there's who he actually is. There's this cartoon of him that's out there, that he's mean, hateful, intense.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And then when you meet him, you think, where is that person that's being described? Yeah. I don't know, James, have you ever watched a show about a bad guy? I don't know. Tony Soprano can be pretty charming in a 20-minute meeting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
You can be a person that is advanced, hateful, intense, and mean material and conspiratorial material and then also be able to pull it together for 20 minutes to suck up to a senator.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah. Oh, yeah. He was a competitor of yours. He didn't see him on the charts. But he had a podcast on the Epoch Times. It was Cash's Corner. I've had to suffer through it a few times. He doesn't even deny any of the things that people say he said. It's just like, well, I guess that's just part of the kayfabe. It's like WWE. It's like Rowdy Roddy Piper getting on the mic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
It's like, that's not the real Rowdy Roddy. He's just saying what he said about Jake the Snake Roberts because that's part of the show. I guess that's their argument.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I just want to say, just for the record, in case there are lawyers listening, that that story that Tommy shared was shared by Tommy. That is alleged. And his former secretary of defense, Mark Esper, also shared it. But Cash is currently suing Olivia Troy, my friend, for relaying that same story on MSNBC.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
So I just want to say that if there are any lawsuits pending, that was Tommy Vitor that said that. And I'm open to any facts that might emerge.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
It's great. You're a fair questioner. I've watched some of your interviews. Speaking of cash lying, I've got a clip here from today's hearing that I would like to play.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
This is like when my mother came and was like, was there a glass bong in your room? I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, what? Was there marijuana at the party? Glass bong. I'm like, ooh, that doesn't ring a bell. And she's like, this glass bong? It's like, what? What, eight times he's been on the podcast? A guy named Arjun Modi, who's a GOP Senate staffer, came to Cash's defense on this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I tweeted about this exchange and he came to Cash's defense. He writes this, in context, Cash did over 1,000 media interviews submitted to the committee. I don't remember what I had for lunch yesterday. Okay. What do you think about that, Tommy? Do you think there's anybody who's done eight podcast interviews with you who couldn't recognize your name? I am forgettable.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
You are just a white guy named Tom.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
taken you don't feel like that was a meritocracy they're having two reality show stars and one weekend host being the like point people for responding to this you don't think that reflect and they are all white males so i mean they had to overcome the obstacles of the dei to get to the jobs they did they succeeded somehow in spite of all the obstacles in front of them so that was one bucket of frustration and then i just started to think about like
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah, I might revisit it, I guess. I don't know. I'm feeling like the Joker. But in the afternoon session of this, I might just kind of revisit cash. I'm sorry. I know this might seem silly, but I've got to go back to the Stu Peters thing. Does it ring a bell now that you've been reminded you did eight podcast interviews?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I've been torn on this because I've also been giving the Democratic senators shit. I had Mark Kelly on this pod last week, and I was like, why don't you guys coordinate better? He didn't have a good answer to that, really. I thought his questions were good, but some of the others weren't. That was with regards to the Hegseth hearing. But I don't know, man.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
If the Republicans are going to vote for this guy anyway— Are we sure that giving a speech that goes on YouTube or TikTok isn't a better use of time than asking him questions he's going to lie about? That's a genuine question. I'm kind of going back and forth on what is useful. If you thought that you could stop it, then I think strategy is important.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But if we're just accepting that the Republicans are totally shameless and are going to vote in these unqualified people, then maybe the strategy mindset changes a little bit. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
You also just know your skills. Yeah, Peter Walsh is a nice person. He's fine. But maybe give your time over to somebody that knows what they're doing. Yeah. Amy Klobuchar was pretty good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
You know, it'd be like if the bulwark had a like weightlifting competition against crooked media, you know, I'd be like, I don't probably don't put me in on that one, you know, like put me in, put me in on one of the other events where I know that where I, where I can add some value. Is JVL your ringer? Joe Perticoan, I think. Losing Caputo is pretty big on that, unfortunately.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I've been over to crooked headquarters. I don't think the competition's going to be very stiff on the weightlifting. Oh, I had one more thing on cash. I think Tom Tillis might be my least favorite senator now, Tommy. The thing I want the most in the world, which means it won't happen, is I want the porn store pizza man to challenge him in a primary and beat him. I want it really badly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Tillis passed out a cash, K, money sign, H, bingo card game today. That, you know, check the square if a Democrat says subjects such as deep state or enemies list or QAnon. And it's just like... The problem with him is, you know, some of these guys, Marjorie Taylor Greene doesn't pretend to be serious. So give me Marjorie Taylor Greene over this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Tom Tillis is like condescending lectures about how the Democrats are the ones that are asking unfair questions, you know, amidst a hearing where like you have legitimate questions about an incoming FBI director that was producing the January 6th choir. Yeah. To act like that is some preposterous thing for the Democrats to bring up that you should just mock with your silly bingo card game.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Fuck you, Tom Tillis. What is this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And he talked about it a lot. Yeah. On several of those 1000 podcasts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Be your own man. I will say it was interesting. Much more on Cash tomorrow. We got Andrew Weissman on. But just one other thing that was interesting from today. He didn't elide the question about the pardons for the cop beaters. He specifically said he disagreed with that. I did not see that. Interesting. Yeah, I found that interesting. I mean, it's fake.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Probably have to say it, yeah, for the building. Yeah, and I'm sure he cuts the deal behind the scenes. He calls Don Jr. or whatever and is like, just, you know, tell daddy. Maybe he calls Shadow President Elon Musk. I don't know. Maybe he calls Donald directly. But it's just like, hey, I'm just going to, you got to give me one here so that we can get through.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah, who's the fourth senator that would have cared about that? That's a good question. I don't know. Not Tom Tillis. I wanted your take also on there's just been this kind of clown OMB. We're freezing and then we're rescissioning the freeze and then we're refreezing and then we're unfreezing. And a lot of the stuff, the details are going to bleed out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But the one area where they do seem to be pretty serious about freezing is grants and funds is in foreign aid. And they brought up the fake story about the Gaza condoms as one of the things that they're going to freeze. That's not true, actually. The condoms are going to Africa as part of the anti-AIDS program, as part of PEPFAR, which was a Republican program initially.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But they're going to cut that, cut all USAID. So I'm just kind of curious, given your experience in that world, what you think the potential ramifications of this are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
They didn't freeze. Just to be clear, they did not freeze the aid to Israel or Egypt. Which is for Israel. So, heck of a job to the Egypt bag men and to our friends who protested the genocide, Joe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
There's also the soft power. I knew you were kind of forgetting at this in the Jordan example, but like the soft power element to this, particularly in the context of China, like the thing to me that's like the most incoherent about this is you've got some elements that,
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
of the Trump administration and Trump world that are very, you know, saber-rattling about China and China hawks and the threats from China and this great power struggle that we're in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And part of that is the fact that China has been buying influence with a lot of countries throughout the world, particularly some in our hemisphere now, you know, doing programs such as the one you described in Jordan, right? And so if we kind of get off the playing field there, You already saw this little dust up with Colombia.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
If you're Petro, why aren't you like, well, I guess I'll just deal with China. I'll do trade with China. They might feel like a more reliable ally right now. To me, it just undermines the whole China hawk element of what they're arguing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
You're saying you can't trust the CCP? That's not Sinophobic? Now that you're on the Bulwark podcast, you can say it without any accusations of Sinophobia?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
When you talk to folks in like advocacy world, and is there anything in particular that they're the most alarmed about, I guess, in the first week and a half, particularly kind of what the Pod Save the World had on?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I mean, not really. And it's how communications is for Trump, I guess. Not for Biden. Yeah. Well, that's another challenge.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
to americans like something that could boomerang back on us pretty quickly i want to do a little um a little politics and then every time you're on i like to give you a world leader quiz looking close with that but uh i was talking with chris hayes on tuesday and he's got the new book about the attention economy and how like trump has successfully leveraged this and this is i guess kind of related to our first topic in the darkest sense of how trump has leveraged this uh
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
leverage, so to speak, this tragedy outside of Reagan Airport. But, you know, one of the things we're talking about where the Democrats just are struggling with this, and in part because they have to kind of go through this deprogramming from what was a smart politician behavior to 15 years ago versus what is smart politician behavior now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And I played him a clip of Gretchen Whitmer and I hate to pick on Gretchen Whitmer because I think this is across the board, something that all Democrats are doing, but I just want, I just want to use it as an example because she is type of person that might be up in 2028 and because it is just spot on what, um, what we're talking about here. So let's listen to Gretchen Whitmer on CBS. Yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
All right, Tommy, I want you to pretend we're at a DNC media training session. We just played that clip and you're talking to the candidates. What kind of feedback do you have for Big Grudge?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah, maybe there's political value. I don't know. But just from a human standpoint, it's just so atrocious. Oh, for sure. There are people that... Many people that lost loved ones, and I saw an interview last night with a local news, you know, a guy waiting for his wife, hoping that she survived. Obviously, she didn't survive.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah, I've got some feedback for you in your Jesse Waters interview. I want to stick with Whitmer here first, or not Whitmer, just with the Democratic Challenge broadly. Because like, So you said, right, that they don't need us, they don't want us. Republicans kind of do need Democrats, actually, to get stuff done. And we'll see what they can do.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I think that they're going to be in a big challenge on the Hill to get things passed. Republican study committee put out a statement the other day. That's I think 180 house members that were like, we're only going to vote for a reconciliation bill if it cuts the deficit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And if you go back and listen to the Liam Donovan article interview, I did a couple of weeks ago, like you can hear how that's impossible. Right. So, you know, they're going to come to the Democrats for bailouts on budget stuff. So get something to get to the 60 votes on the Lake and Riley thing. Maybe that was the right strategic thing to do, but maybe not.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Or like, are people really going to be voting on the Lake and Riley Act in 2026? We're 20 months away from another election. I don't know, actually. I mean, is saying that we're going to collaborate with the Trump administration really... getting you anything?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Has anybody done well? in the last week and a half. Again, it would be one thing to be complaining about this in December, but he had an inauguration. We've had all these hearings. We had this press conference today. There have been plenty of opportunities to go say interesting things, to go to different types of places. Is there anybody that you think is really nailing it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
That link will be in your inbox, or you can go to bulwark.com slash subscribe if you're not a member yet. I don't know why that would be. And of course, I'll be back tomorrow for a recap. But for today, we've got the co-founder of Crooked Media, co-host of something called Pod Save America. He also has another podcast I like called Pod Save the World.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I assume that there were people there who have, who are, you know, not white, who are minorities, who, you know, have mental health issues in their family. Like, do they really want to see the president alive? the next day, talking about his speculation that maybe it was a black lady that was in the cockpit. I just don't, I don't get that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah. So, you know. I just go to like, look, this is the thing in 2016. I used to make fun of it. So I'm the person I used to make fun of now. So I'll admit it. But in 2016, when I was working for Jeb, like we would mock, like the defense of Trump
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
among, you know, the Winnie the Pooh in the tuxedo defense of Trump back then in 2015 was like, but he fights, you know, he might be, he might have some, he might have some issues in his personal life. Like we want somebody that fights these evil Obama bros. Right. And that didn't resonate with me then because, you know,
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I think you made some mistakes, but I didn't really feel deep in my core that you needed to be fought by the stupidest American. So that obviously is why I'm disconnected from my former party. But now I feel that. You could sell me on that. Like a butt she fights or a butt he fights. Somebody that I don't agree with on every issue. I want to fight her too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
That I know is going to go there and go to the mat against this... farcical shit this sham that we have to that we've been subjected to for the last week and a half and it's like nobody's really give me that i know you see a little bit uh you know you mentioned about ryan chris murphy a little bit but But no guttural, nothing from the gut.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I've been saying the word sham too much. So people, I gotta, I gotta get out my, I gotta get out my thesaurus or farce. I mean, I've been saying too much sham too. I don't know. We'll see. There's, there's a lot of bad stuff. Speaking of farces, you went on water's world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
As you mentioned earlier, if we're going to make fun of the other Democrats and give them some feedback, I've got some feedback for you. So I want to listen to a clip of you on water's world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
The libertarian moment is back. I was just happy to hear it. I'd never heard you say you're a libertarian before. I was like, man, we've got more in common than I thought. I wasn't expecting that question. I might have used it as an opportunity to go after Jesse to be like, yeah, Jesse, you know, I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I think that there are two genders, but like sometimes people, you know, process like their alignment with each gender differently. You see this in sex as well. You know, like there are men with two balls. They're men with one ball. They're men who gave both of their balls over to Donald Trump. Wow. Okay. You know, like you, like that'd be one thing to do.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Like there are only a couple of ways to do a marriage, right? You can have a closed marriage, you can have an open marriage, or you can have a closed marriage where you cheat on your wife with a woman that works for you and you're a sex pest at the office. Like that might've been another thing to consider. I'm just spitballing here. Different options.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Dominion. All right. I think you should keep going on there. Is there anything else you want to do? Just generally speaking, like bro pods, crypto. What do you think could be a useful use of your time now? Using the Jesse Waters appearance as kind of like a training room.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Well, listen, you found one. Fish on. In seriousness, though, what is actually useful? No, I'm serious. Sometimes it's not actually useful. Like me yelling at Clay Travis, I find kind of satisfying. But am I convincing it? You know what I mean? Is that useful? I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
No, obviously it's atrocious. I just, I guess what is the point? He's also not running again, I guess. You know what I mean? So it's like, what is even the political point, right? Like this is, this is the one sort of element of all of this. Like you would think that, you know, he also had a written statement. It was classic Trump that's talking about uniting the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I agree with that. And I just, and particularly the non, well, this is, I guess what I'm trying to think of. I think it's more challenging, but I think it'd be valuable for you and all your fellow, probably not love it, but Fabro and other fellow bros, Pat Ryan's to go on non non,
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
political conservative coded shows totally right like because i think that there's limited maybe minor value in me yelling at clay travis i think there'd be very real value and go again going on the barstools the theobonds or some of this other kind of stuff the aiden roth right like the streamers doing some of that i think would be it'll be useful i do it is all kind of tied up in crypto Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Do you own any crypto? I own like a little tiny bit. I wish I owned a lot more. Do you have any regrets over that? Because I've been thinking about this lately. Yeah. I'm so fucking pissed about the Trump coin thing and how this whole thing is just like such an obvious fraud. And like how so many of these coins are such an obvious fraud and like how these rug pulls are going to screw people over.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And it's been making me mad, but I've been doing some self-examination and I'm wondering if part of my anger is related to the fact that I've left so much money on the table. So I'm wondering what you think about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Leave it to the libs. More speech codes for I can't say bro. I've got to say latinx. Whatever, Tommy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Like, we don't even really know what happened. Like, I saw this kind of right-wing pilot of somebody that had been a pilot of a Black Hawk helicopter that was the helicopter that crashed into the passenger plane. And, you know, dude gave a very detailed list of all the things that could go wrong and how it's more challenging than you think and how there's a watch person, there's two, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
It is tough, right? That's my problem with the whole Roe talking point on all this, right? It's like, okay, I've got to be more open-minded towards the Ponzi scheme that's getting the worst people in the world rich, I guess. All right. Sure. That's good advice. It's just about how you talk to people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Final area before I get you on the where in the world is Carmen San Diego pop quiz. I am curious about, you know, you're monitoring the world. We're looking for positives out there. Not a lot of positives happening domestically. Do you have a favorite world leader? Like, I wish I could like Malay, you know, he'd be right in my actual libertarian bones, but he wasn't such a suck up to Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And so I'm like, you know, I'm looking, give me a, give me a lib, give me a good lib around the world that I can, I can be excited about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
David Lammy? All right. Big New Yorker piece on him this week. I'll check out that New Yorker piece. I'm just looking for hope anywhere. All right. That takes us to the final topic. You know that George W. Bush was embarrassed when he was asked... to name random foreign leaders. And all the Libs were so excited to make fun of him for not knowing that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And since you have a podcast about the world, I'd like to ask you about that. I've got some friends who are traveling through Asia here this winter. And so I'd like for you to tell us the prime minister of Japan or the president of Vietnam or the prime minister of Thailand, any of those three world leaders names. Can you get any of those? What did you say?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Thailand is... Japan, Thailand, and Vietnam. Thavison? Thavison is which one? Thailand. No? I don't know. The prime minister is Shinwarata.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
actually are you sure but uh maybe there's are there multiple i don't i don't know what the i don't know what the thai system is you know maybe it's a multi just i'm gonna cheat on this one you're googling no no i'm just gonna google thavison oh yeah no thavison's been gone since august 2024 okay to be fair to you thavison just went out august 2024 so that's pretty good we'll give you a half a point for that uh shin awatra is the new prime minister okay woman
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Like, we know nothing, you know? And so to pop off on that is pretty ridiculous. Like, it is Trump, but as you're saying about just kind of how things are right now, at some level, It reflects a little bit of a just kind of breakdown of our entire society that also is maybe Trump's fault.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
well and then yes oh sorry you're right that's a good point and then the the japanese have had like a bunch of leaders very recently ashiba is the current one that's correct sheba okay good what was the other country you asked about uh vietnam uh no fucking clue no clue about vietnam i can't i can't pronounce this person's name but uh it looks like uh since 21 another new one a lot of turnover over there uh general it's a general
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Uh-oh, watch out for Vietnam. Kong, Kwong, General Kwong. So there you go. One and a half points out of three, that's a C. I don't know. It's not great. Pakistan, Shabazz Sharif. I brushed up. It's a good podcast, though, Pod Save the World. I do listen to it on the plane, and I doze off to it, actually, usually. So I kind of have you and Ben Rhodes in my dreams oftentimes when I'm on flights.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
So I appreciate you. Thanks for coming back to the podcast. Do you have anything else you want to promote? Any other final thoughts for everybody?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
No Sunday scaries with Tommy Vitor. Guys, we're going to be back here tomorrow with Andrew Weissman. Look forward to seeing you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But, you know, I saw some other some of our YouTube competitors out there yesterday that were blaming it on the fact that the FAA administrator got fired already and we didn't have a replaced FAA administrator. And that's saying that it's Trump's fault. Democratic congressman woman Norma Torres said.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
said that the families deserve answers because Trump gutted an aviation safety committee, which I think that was really a TSA committee. But again, this happened on the other side.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I got into fights with Republicans back during the East Palestine train derailment, where they were like Rudy Giuliani and other people were out there talking about how Pete Buttigieg's paternity leave was to blame for this. So maybe Trump is just taking advantage of our broken society.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Maybe you aren't built for this. You're kind of a softie. Yeah, I don't know. I do have to tell you, my initial instinct to be like, fuck it, blame Trump. Fuck it. Why not blame Trump? I mean, you know, he blamed a Newsom for the fires and Pete, like caring for his kids in the NICU was blamed for like everything that happened all over the country for two years. So why not?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
He was a national security staff spokesman during the Obama administration. It's a man Ben Shapiro calls Tayron Tommy, Tommy Vitor. How are you doing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But, you know, I took a couple breaths and I was like, well, you know, we could probably just see what actually happened. We could probably just see what happened. And I don't think that like my tweet happened. or Norma Torres's tweet is really going to be the thing that takes Trump down here. So I think we can probably wait to see what actually happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Somebody that didn't wait to see what actually happened on various things, uh, is, uh, the nominee to be the secretary of health and human services, Bobby Kennedy. You, were you a big Bobby fan before the last huge, huge Bobby fan.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
bronzer adoption is kind of a administration wide thing now i gotta say despite the fact that he wants to maha i've seen the shirtless pictures on the golds and that does not look like a natural human body no that looks like trt yeah that looks like well i i don't know anything about trt that maybe maybe something you're into but or do i but i'm thinking about getting into it because he looks pretty shredded for being honest he looks shredded in some ways but he has parts of his body that are like malformed yeah the size of which is not natural
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
So that's not for me. I like guys with muscles, but I like them to actually look like male humans, not like male humanoid kind of avatar combos. You're a Schlossberg fan living in an RFK world. I am. I do like the noodle voice. I want to listen to some of RFK's testimony from yesterday. What should we do first? Let's fuck it. Let's do heroin first. Let's listen to RFK talking about heroin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Has he watched a movie about the opioid crisis or like read a magazine article about this? It's pretty kind of a pretty big deal lately, like how hard it is for people to get off of heroin. And it caused like a nationwide crisis and many thousands of deaths.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Me neither. I've got my own vices. Neither of these are them. But like, again, I've read the news, you know, and I've watched Dope Sick. Really good. Really good serial. Yeah, I read the book. Yeah, it's great. I haven't heard any stories of people that are like, you know, of course, getting off Lexapro, these sorts of things, I do think is not, I don't want to be like, oh, this is nothing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
It's easy. But like, there aren't any stories of people that are so jonesing for their Lexapro that they've turned to fentanyl. I haven't seen anything like that out there. Right. That's exactly right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Well, luckily, the Secretary of Health and Human Services doesn't need to know anything about this. There are some other things that he didn't show a ton of knowledge about. I want to play a couple of clips of him being asked about Medicaid.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah, I don't know. I listened to his podcast for the first time in a while yesterday, and it is unlistenable. And the fact that he beats us in the ratings sometimes is me always, but you sometimes should really make you have to reflect on some things. How do you do a show without someone to talk to? I just, I don't get it. It's just a monologue. It's just monotone. What did Sarah call him?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
There aren't premiums and deductibles on Medicaid. How many people does he think is in the country if there are 30 million babies on Medicaid? One billion Americans. Matt Iglesias would be happy, but I don't think that's true. Were you impressed with his command of these very important healthcare policy matters that he's going to be in charge of?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We have a massive day today. The Kash Patel and Tulsi Gabbard hearings are happening as we speak, as is a press avail that Donald Trump and J.D. Vance are having about the tragic plane crash in Washington. So we'll get to some of that. For Bulwark Plus subscribers, we'll do a full wrap-up at the end of the day.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
What are your thoughts on what the Democrats are supposed to do with this kind of thing? I want to get into Cash and Tulsi in a little bit. That's happening right now as we speak. But about him and Bondi and Hegseth. You know, we get into nitpicking, right, like how they're handling the Q&A and, you know, could they have a better plan or, you know, could they coordinate better?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
They asked tougher questions. That's on the one hand. On the other hand, I'm like, this is all a farce. RFK is like during the hearing yesterday, pretended like he's for vaccines. Now he has no idea what he's talking about, about the major vaccine. programs that are going to be, you know, under his auspices. So like, what is a useful, a valuable use of Democrats time on a hearing such as this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
A castrated chipmunk? It's just like a castrated chipmunk giving you a 50-minute lecture in the same tone. It's an interesting podcast. Fun guy. You know, to each their own, right? You know, everybody, people like different things, different strokes for different folks. All right. As I mentioned, there was a just horrific midair collision last night outside of Reagan National DCA.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I mean, I love going after trial lawyers, so that works for me. It is confusing to me that the Republicans are now the party of trial lawyers and they love passing legislation that lets people randomly sue. That's what underlines the don't say gay bill in Florida. You can sue the school if a teacher says something too gay. That's what underlines the bounty abortion bill in Texas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
You can sue a woman or the provider if they break the law. So there's a lot of new pathways for suing. I don't know if that's really going to land. I don't know. I'm torn. I think the Medicaid, why I wanted to play the Medicaid clips and the whole hearing was a fucking just farce and clown show. So we could have played many clips.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But to me, I think that the Medicaid ones are probably the best bet for Democrats. And I think that like this is a program that serves poor people and it serves a lot of Poor working class whites and red states who are for Donald Trump and Trump has been pretty deft at kind of claiming that he's not actually coming after the services that they like.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Even economist Mark Zandi. Sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
There's one other element to this I want to add, which is, you're right, some of this is that we came to believe that all these things that made America unique or somewhat unique, there are a lot of Western countries and some others that started to adopt a lot of these same principles, but
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
that they were upheld by some kind of the document of the Constitution or these people that practice forbearance or the rule of law or the robed people or whatever, like that there were people out there that protected this system. So that led us to a place where when there were other examples
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
of these types of corruption where people did not show forbearance, where people acted inappropriately when they acted unconstitutionally, that they would be restrained in some way or they would be held to account, right? That Nixon eventually has to resign. That what we did at Abu Ghraib, like there would be investigations into it that would be bipartisan investigations, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
That if the Bush administration decided to follow the John Yoo interpretation of the constitution, that there would be other, that there would be people you know, either within the administration or within the courts, within the national security courts that would check it, right. That there'd be some other thing within the system.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
And like, to me, like over the first 67 days, like in addition to having these guys totally getting rid of shame and forbearance, that's the other thing that is broken is that I don't, I don't have any faith that there will actually be any check or any accountability on anything they do and that they could do Abu Ghraib. They are doing Abu Ghraib again in Southern Salvador. And there's no,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
See what you're feeling and seeing after 67 days of this shit. What's most acute to you? Are there any surprises, any changes since you cried?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
There's no option. I interviewed Mark Warner yesterday for YouTube, and I was like, what are you guys doing about this? And the answer is basically nothing. We hope that the courts will intervene, but it's like the courts have no jurisdiction here and TBD on whether the robed people actually side on the side of the Constitution.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
And it's all the way down, actually. It would be better if it was in charge, but they're not just in charge. They're in total control. There's no mid-level DOJ person that's like, I care more about the political appointees. That was part of the Project 2025. Now the deputy fucking FBI director is a meathead MAGA talk show host.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
The attorney general is in a miniskirt today at the arrest of somebody for a PR. It's these people all the way down.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Yeah, but they're grownups to beat the metaphor to death. I guess that's my point.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Yeah, that's important. Even in the Nixon era, there was Larry Hogan's dad. And as you said, in the Bush era, there's McCain. Like there were still like, you know, even when bad actors took over or people that had bad intention for a particular, you know, agenda item, there were others around that were responsible.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
And I think going back to your original point, it's like, that's the thing that feels like that is lost is like, I think when we were living through all that, we felt like, Well, that's just how it is. Like there are always going to be some responsible people around and there's always going to be the rule of law and there's always going to be, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
And so there might be bad actors, but it's always, it is always resolvable, right? Like we are always going to be able to, as a country, overcome it because, you know, these other strong institutional powers and people's individual forbearance will come to the fore eventually after some damage is done. And like, it feels like that is all rotted now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Where the government can throw you in jail because of your tattoo. That's not an acute risk to them.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
I promise you, people, we've got a little bit of, I don't know if I want to call it light, but we've got some actionable things that we can do about this. It's not utter despair, this podcast. The end will have some stuff that's not utter despair, but we've got to go deeper into the muck before we get there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
What I really wanted to have you on, my original plan actually was I was like, love it cried a week after the election. I want to have a month for the 100th day episode to like get an update on whether he wants to cry again after 100 days. But I texted you earlier this week because I was having dinner with my friend. As you mentioned earlier, like life is going on. I do find joy.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
I do have joy in my life, other things I was doing. I usually, when I'm at dinner with friends, I'm not talking about Donald Trump. I'm just finding other things in life where we can celebrate each other's company. But I was so upset about the particular case of this Venezuelan named Andri, you know, who is the makeup artist.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
We've now seen the pictures of who has been sent to this since Salvador Gulag. And my friend was saying this in a nice way. Cause he's also mad, but he's like, it feels like you're particularly mad about this because like, as a gay person, you know, you can like feel, uh, in an even more personal way, the plight of this young man. And that's true.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
I was having these visions of what it would be like to just be pulled out, to just be grabbed by some cops and have your head shaved and clothes stripped from you and shackled and slapped while he calls for his mother. It's unimaginable. And so I was like, I need another gay to talk about that with. But since then, we have a couple of other examples that have come up.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
A refugee guy that was a refugee EM Went to Columbia, came here the right way, came to America in the Houston airport, gets detained because of a tattoo. No record. Just today, Miami Herald is reporting this guy, Frangel Mota, similar type story. There's the guy that had the autism awareness tattoo. I don't know if there's a ton of gang members with autism awareness tattoos.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
It feels a little out of type. And the whole thing just has me so... Wrapped around the axle. And we're doing this and we have now, as you mentioned earlier, Kristi Noem goes down there last night, stands in front of a cage with all of these shirtless men that are shackled and used as props.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
And it's like, we may have done these types of things before with internment, but like doing this like type of propaganda, like this is what the Viet Cong did, right? Like this has taken from me what is fundamental about the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
And that combined with this particular story of Andree, like me both losing my naivete about America as a shining city on a hill and imagining what it might be like as a gay makeup artist to be sent to this gulag. I don't understand how it can be tolerable.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
That's part of the reason why we don't do that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Because sometimes you get it wrong.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
I'm sure there's some gang member somewhere in the world that has a brother with autism. that cares about autism awareness. But I'm going to need a little bit more evidence than the rainbow ribbon tattoo before we send the guy to a fucking concentration camp in another country without any due process, without access to a lawyer.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Yeah. And that's what fucking conservatives should do. It's just like, oh, trust us. The jackbooted thugs can come into... you know, can go onto the street and pull somebody off because they wrote an op-ed. I want to get to the tough scale later, but just like one more thing on this. They're trying to do what you're saying, right? Like where they're trying to chill the criticism, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Like the spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security, Trisha McLaughlin, you know, is like, I quote, is quote, I think she quoted Sam Stein. She's quoted a couple of other people like, oh no, we've got more info than the tattoos. but it's just that. And it's like, okay, well show me, show us the receipts, bring it to a court, bring it to a judge.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
A judge actually remanded you to not do this until you offered evidence that you flew these people to San Salvador anyway. So like, I mean, like the whole thing is, and it really is like, it's out of a communist like regime. And it's just fundamentally like oppositional to what America is supposed to be about. We've disappeared these people and,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
And I don't know, man, like the, the pictures that the time magazine reporter and the story that he wrote about this, where it's like, You can't imagine what is happening to the people in these prisons if they were beating Andre. We assume it's Andre. We don't know. I guess maybe there's another gay person that was kidnapped.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
But if it's Andre who's yelling for his mother, imagine how dark of a place you have to be in. It's not helping you to scream out, I'm gay. I'm a barber. I'm gay. This is not me. And crying for your mother. They were doing that in front of a reporter. So, like, imagine what the fuck they're doing to him behind the bars. Yeah, he's still there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
He got on the app, the CBP1 app. We created an app where you sign yourself up. This guy was not swimming. Not that it would be okay, but it's not like he swam across the Rio Grande or climbed the fence or whatever. He did everything right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
It's good to see you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Yeah. And yet the reaction is kind of less than you would have expected. Frankly, I guess, on the surprises standpoint for me from now versus when we last spoke, the surprises is more about the mundane reaction than about the actions. Because I really do think it's about us being...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
The other thing that would do... It would stiffen the spines of the people that are folding, and whether that be at Columbia or at the law firms or across the board. If they felt like there were people that would have their backs, they would act differently. And I think that it would also be the case for any Democratic elected officials that you feel like are not living up to the moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
And that's why that is my ask for today is that, and as I have before, is I just, I think that people need to call and pressure these folks to speak out more clearly about what is happening, particularly in the Tufts case and with regards to the gulag in San Salvador.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
bad as it could have been for now I mean like I think it's going to get worse and I think if you ask me to predict what 2027 would look like it's not as bad as I would have predicted when we talked but I mean to think that in two months and a week they would have
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
There's some rallies coming April 5th. Hands off America. People can Google those. But no, I'm with you. I'm saying that because I'm trying to be helpful. I'm not that. I think it's going to take time to brew and we're going to have to rally people to shake them from their slumber. You were in Wisconsin? Yeah. I've not covered it. And this is bad on me, but I want to explain why.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Because maybe this will resonate with some listeners. I thought it was great that James Malone won the state Senate district in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. He's this Democrat that won as a Trump plus 15 district in this place in Pennsylvania. It's kind of between Philly and Harrisburg in a rural Pennsylvania. And I thought that was great.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
And I think it's great that people are out there like you in Wisconsin, that you flew out there, that Ben Wickler and others are rallying in this state Supreme Court race between Susan Crawford, who's the Democratic endorsed judge, and Brad Schimel, who's the Republican attorney general.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
like it's just like we've fucking been here you know we just have been here and it's just like we had this brutal loss that is going to cause so much damage over the next four years and it's like tough for me to get my dander up about state senate races when all the shit we've been discussing for the last hour you know you only have so much room in your heart for action and for anger and yet you
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
These local races do matter, and they're actually a place where people can have more control and can wrest back control in their lives and in their communities. So talk about your trip to Wisconsin, what you saw there, and what you think folks can do.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Just to be clear, so if Schimel is to win, if the Republican Attorney General is to win, that would flip the balance back to 4-3 Republican, and in theory, they could enforce the old abortion law.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
already like created this type of economic instability that's pretty shocking already had a scandal as stupid as signal signal gazi that would already be like putting people in a foreign gulag that didn't without due process i mean i got the elon stuff i mean i went back and actually listened to our whole pod to to level set myself and you mentioned i i guess it's kind of funny actually in retrospect you were mad about the fact that elon
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
It's the hit of the Love It or Leave It channel?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
How did it feel to be out amongst the people out of the studio?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
We can criticize Alabama on the podcast, but outside of that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
That's nice. That's uplifting. I'm smiling. Good. Thank you, John Lovett, for coming back on the podcast. We'll do it again in 67 more days and see how dark things are then. Everybody else will be back here tomorrow with an old friend. We'll see y'all then. Peace. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
was on a call with Zelensky. Yeah. And I don't even really remember that happening now at this point. That was only three months ago. But we didn't talk at all about, like, the Elon dismantling of the government, right? Like, just the total destruction of any sort of research, you know, for medical research, the willy-nilly firing of people. Like, we didn't, you know, we really didn't
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
I like praise, just as a general matter. But this type of positive feedback is particularly meaningful to me because the other guests you have on the channel are way more famous than me and more talented. You have all these A-list celebrities, people famous on gay TikTok you have on, and you make jokes together, and yet the people still want me. That's nice.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
like project that so in some ways it is worse and yet that is kind of the dissonance right like that is sort of why i'm like yelling at my phone sometimes i'm like doing like selfie videos where i'm where you can see my like anger veins popping because it's like it does feel like that like the reaction is not matching the action i guess
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
You can imagine Reince actually being the one to have invited Jeffrey Goldberg. A total clean switch there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
We also aren't 100% sure that there are no citizens. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
deportations and efforts to lock people up without due process not just non-citizens but citizens too i have some like some very detailed thoughts about the el salvador thing i want to get to but i want to play a clip of you because this is actually very quite related no no it's good this is a compliment we're gonna this is a mutual compliment society today it's us praising each other this was uh you when when we talked right after the election and i think that it is prescient about kind of the problems that you're talking about right now let's listen
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
To me, I think that is kind of what we're getting at, right? Any of these individual things, we can obsess over kind of the particulars of them, but you're seeing this come into reality very fast. Everybody hates the fucking word normalization. I hate it, but you can just see just everybody becoming accustomed to all of this very fast.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
I think that's the thing that's making me the most crazy about this, where there is not... you know, like they've backed off some of their things, right? Like, you know, they touched the stove on the nuclear guys. They fired them and brought them back. And well, everybody will talk about, you know, what's happening on the signal chain for a couple of days. Then who knows what happens next.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
But like, meanwhile, that's what you're talking about. Like that the country will just be unalterably changed because so many of the underlying things that held it together will have changed.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
They want the kind of faux tension. Right. You know, that we offer. Okay. Well, that's great. I love it. Everyone should check it out if they haven't. Last time you were here on our side of the inner tubes, on the bulwark side, that was one week after the election. You cried famously as covered by Fox News Primetime.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Can we just hang it twice?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to have back former speechwriter for Hillary Clinton and Barry Obama, co-founder of Crooked Media, host of Love It or Leave It, as well as the YouTube show, Taking the World by Storm, called Speech Center. He does it with me. Go check it out if you haven't. It's John Lovett. How you doing, man? Hi, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
They didn't think he was their type until he got in the middle of the act. And all of a sudden, they're like, I love Mushroom Dick, actually.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Yeah, and I mean, this is one of his advantages of just beating people down and wearing people down. There's this critique of the media and the left that's like, oh, if you're the boy who cries wolf or whatever, if your hair is always on fire, if you're always at 11, you can't rouse people when there's a real alarm.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
The problem is we have been at 11 for a while now, and that's not our fault for observing it. I don't know what the solution is to getting people to understand that it's 13 now or whatever. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1008: Jon Lovett: A Worst Case Scenario Comes Into View
Personally, I'm pro-crying, so I didn't think I was insulting you. I've yet to cry myself since the election. I'm assuming that that means I'm going to completely break down at Bourbon Pub and Parade at some point this year. It hasn't happened yet. But I wanted to take the lens back today instead of getting specifically into the fucking Signalgate news and the micro. Sure. And just...
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
So that takes us to the budget element of this, which is not Trump, really, because he's letting the guys on the Hill do this. But he's going to be the one that ends up arm twisting if they're even able to get it through. It squeaks by by one vote in Kandersons, I guess, since you've mentioned your spouse. I didn't think they'd even be able to do the non-binding budget.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
My husband was like, I think that they'll squeak it out. He's a lobbyist. So he's the vote counter in the family. So he got that one right. Kudos to him. But they squeak it out by one vote. Now they actually are going to have to go do it again with the weight of law behind it and with like real details. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Yeah, it's the wish list. You can say, you can kind of elide the Medicaid thing. Like I saw Mike Lawler, the supposed moderate that never does anything moderate on TV talking about like, well, this isn't real Medicaid cuts. You know, it's just like we're cutting under HHS and we're going to find fraud and we'll see what the details are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Or just juicing the debt by $4.5 trillion, which takes us back to the Elon thing. Even the budget that they put through, right? Even with using, you know, kind of the mega Heritage Foundation money counters who are, you know, like throwing some stuff under the couch cushions.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Even they say it's, I think, $865 billion is the debt increase over 10 years. The real number is $3 trillion, probably, maybe more. And just extending the tax cuts themselves are $4 trillion and then sort of deal out the cuts. And so it's like they don't even have a directional plan towards cutting the deficit or debt.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
He was taking all the questions. He seemed like he was kind of in command of the topics. He didn't seem lost. Obviously, he says crazy stuff all the time. It's Trump. But, you know, you have wall-to-wall TV coverage. He's announcing things that I think are good. Again, substance aside, good marketing. Like, five million bucks if you want to come to the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
And so they're doing all these painful cuts in the name of cutting the deficit and then they're not going to do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
You do think that's right? I was going to get into the economy, but me and Carville, I'm in the Carville shirt so I can say it with love. I'm like not with them on this one. I think that what's the harm in just being monkeys with shit and throwing the shit right back in their face right now and seeing what hits. I'm kind of on that side of things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I agree with you that. And on the language, I was just on with John Lovett over at Pod Save America. We were doing this kind of discussion of the different Democratic strategies. We're going through the videos of what Democrats have been saying. And there were some AOC videos. And like AOC has these two wolves inside of her. One is like bartender AOC. And the Republicans make fun of her over that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
But I think that's the right one. And then like the other one is like Tufts. Like I'm in a Tufts meeting of an intersectional activist group, AOC. Right. And it's like that is the one that isn't landing. But I think that like bartender AOC, Ruben Gallego was on the pod yesterday. I thought he was really good at this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Like just speaking plainly about what the harm they're causing, I think, is the right path. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
We'll pay down the debt with five million dollar gold cards. Again, it's Huckster stuff. I just, I was like... it's hard to imagine Biden doing that. It's hard to imagine some of the other folks doing that. And like, you can, even though I find him just like you disgusting, I can only handle that 20 seconds.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I've been desperate to talk about what the economic trajectory is. And both of us are political hacks. So I'm going to have somebody that actually knows a thing or two that did better. I think I got a B minus in microeconomics 101 at GW. So I will bring in somebody who's an expert. But just using common sense. I think that the economic trajectory right now is extremely shaky.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
And I was intrigued to see this clip from Steve Cohen, who's done very well for himself in the economy. And there's no far left lib finance guy who's a big supporter of Christie. And I think even supported Trump in 16 doesn't anymore. But I want to listen, play just a clip of him on a panel the other day that caught my eye.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Like it was a moment where I was like, I can see why people at least can be conned by this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Sticky inflation, slow in growth, and austerity. That doesn't seem like a winning package to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Yeah. Good luck. The actuarial tables on that too. Eight to 10 years. It is. And I guess my question is, Are the Republicans on the Hill, whatever, the John Thunes of the world, the ones that you might have worked for in a different era, are they drinking the Kool-Aid? Are they wish-casting? Are they trying to just dream into reality, like think positive thoughts, get positive outcomes?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Because, I mean, they could do some things that would... limit the damage that Cohen laid out there, but it doesn't seem like they're really interested in that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
And I guess they have gotten the delays in the tariffs. They kicked the can again yesterday to April 3rd or whatever. So who knows? We'll keep kicking that can until Barron's president.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
trade wars suck. I'm encouraging the Canadians to buck up. But I guess the rationale for that, for their pause on this makes sense, right? I mean, I was watching one of these funny spoof videos where it's a Canadian, like, pretending to be on the other line with Trump. And he's like, what do you want there? Oh, you just want a czar? He's like, you know, it's like, oh, yeah, we got Teddy over here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
We just made him the czar. All right, good deal, Mr. President. No problem there, right? Like, what, you want a couple barrels of maple syrup?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
We got waylaid during the Elon section. I did want to get back to the EV side of things since you do some work on that. I mean, we are trying to figure what is happening with Bezos. And who knows? Is it Blue Origin? Is it Red Pill? Is it I want to be the next trillionaire? It's the second wife. It's a combination of all those things, maybe. Elon, though, is, on the one hand...
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I mean, he's getting richer. And there's a story out today that I guess the FAA is potentially canceling a contract with Verizon and giving it to Starlink and to the tune of billions and billions of dollars. So definitely some corruption opportunities here. So he might get personally richer. He might personally have more power, but it is harming like Tesla, one of his babies, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I didn't mean to go deep on this, but you've intrigued me. I don't have a ton of hope that this administration is going to do some smart domestic industrial policy, but what would be the best thing to do to help us compete?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
This whole fact pattern, though, leads me back to like Elon really has lost his mind. You can argue. Because he's corrupt. A corrupt Elon, which would not be good in there. would be doing things necessary to go after China, be aggressively to go after China, and to work with the Japanese, South Koreans, et cetera, like our axis on international relations. We're doing the opposite.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
We've put these tariffs on China, so I guess that's true. But Iran is alienating China. the markets that would be potentially open to his product.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
So here we are again. The Democrats. This is why the Democrats have to go in on China hawking. People don't get it. The fact that Elon is on the take from China and pretends to be a free speech warrior on the same time. And I was just talking about this this morning. There's this Chinese crypto guy I've talked about here, Justin Sun.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
And Justin Sun put in tens of millions into Trump's one of Trump's crypto grifts. And he's a fraudster. He's a Chinese crypto fraudster being investigated by the SEC. Excuse me. He was being investigated by the SEC until this morning. There's a new press release out that shock the guy that put all this money into Trump's crypto grift there. They're trying to come to a deal. So we'll see.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
The amount of China corruption in this administration, I just don't think it's sunk in with people. All right, I have a couple other things. Really quick. We'll do a little round the horn of the clownery. I guess we'll go saddest to funniest. Saddest, we had an unvaccinated school-aged child die of the measles yesterday in Texas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
RFK, our new HHS secretary who spread measles vaccine disinformation not too long ago yesterday during that cabinet meeting, said basically, yeah, there's measles outbreak all the time. Like, we're on it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Are you concerned about that? I have a funny news item I want to share, but what's your level of concerned about?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Speaking of the venality, I enjoyed this story this morning from Evan Perez at CNN. Here's the nut graph. FBI Director Kash Patel walked into his new office on the seventh floor HQ and made an immediate order. That's kind of ominous. I was nervous when I read that sentence. I was like, uh-oh, is he coming after Comey? What's the immediate order? He wanted new carpeting and window coverings.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
He called the office dingy. So there you go. Doge in action.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Yeah, we can't give rice to starving people in Africa, but we can do a great job, Mr. Trump ad campaign. All right, my last topic, moving on to the Democrats, to your governor. We have a new competitor, you know, Hacks on Tap and the Borg podcast. We have a new competitor in the podcast space. I want to play the sizzle reel from this upcoming competitor.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
He's co-host of Hacks on Tap and co-director of Center for the Political Future at USC. He also runs the EV Policy Project, an effort to end the partisan divide over electric vehicles. By now you've figured out it's Mike Murphy. What's going on, man? Hey, man. Good to see you, Tim. Good to see you. It's been too long. Yeah, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
All right. So the ad there is corny, but I'm going to give you an opinion that's going to shock you, Murphy. I'm going to give you an opinion that's really going to shake you. I think this is a great idea, actually. I've got a lot of concerns with Gavin. We could do it. He's slick. The ad's too slick.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
But actually talking to MAGA people and having him use his slick skills to put Baby in a corner, to put Bannon or whoever the hell wants to take him on in a corner, I think it's probably smart, right? No? I don't know. What do you think?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Welcome to the frame Murphy. Who knew that we had the prime job. The governor of California, Senator from Texas, Ted Cruz. Matt Gaetz is a podcaster now. Cori Bush and Jamal Bowman have a podcast. I just keep looking at the charts to see when one of them will pass us. Not yet, but a lot of politicians.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
He can have tax and I'll take governor of California.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I'm in on that trade. God bless them. You know, I'm with you. Obviously, it's very transparent. I just think engaging the mega people like the the the period of time in history where it's do not platform these people pretend they don't exist other than I like othering them. I don't think they should be invited to parties.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
you know it's an act i only brought in guests during mardi gras season who i can just put a quarter in the machine and let them go uh because i know i'm not i'm not going to be at 100 so that's why we got the murphy doing the shtick here i want to get i want to get back to the economy stuff but there's one ominous thing from the drunk uncle cabinet session yesterday and i want to play that clip for everybody is it your view of your authority
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I think that you should neg them and not give them the acknowledgement they deserve. I'm for all that. But the just pretending they don't exist didn't work. And engaging and arguing with them, I think, makes sense in some level, depending on the execution. We'll see.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Susan. They never learned. She's welcome on the pod. She's a Washington first district. I hear you. Last thing. Okay. We've been mean. We picked on Gavin. I'm open to the Gavin thing. It wasn't mean. Actually, I'm open to it. I want to see how it goes. We've picked on them a little bit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I don't think we can have Jerry Brown in twenty twenty eight. So I'm not asking to the twenty twenty eight hot stove. But are there any Democrats out there just saying like, oh, I like what they've been doing? Is there somebody that jumps out at you?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Mike Murphy, thanks for coming on the pod. His pod is Hacks on Tap. He's an EV man. He's won some elections. And he's out there in California trying to hold it down. There it is. I'm sending you a hat, man.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Hey guys, Tim Miller from the Bulwark. I'm delighted to be here with a glowing Michael Fanone. I mean, the dude like went through some shit and I'm just, I'm over here just monitoring his skincare. What's going on for now?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Yeah. Well, not exactly. You know, Fanone was with me. I was with him, I guess better. I was hiding behind him at the principal's first conference over the weekend and when Enrique Tarrio and some of these fuckers who led the attack on the Capitol came and tried to menace people, tried to pretend to be tough. He brought his little 5'2 friend, the MAGA Marauder.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
And then the next day, obviously, there was a bomb threat we don't really know the origin of. I mean, man, how do you process all this, that these guys are running around creating trouble after you lived through what they did a couple years ago?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I don't know. Actually, it might be even less masculine to try to settle a dispute by having a flunky videotape you for TikTok while you yell at somebody. An influencer beef. I don't know. That's not exactly tough guy material either, really. I guess it would have been cool if we had like a dance off. Yeah. Zoolander. Right. How do you process that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
It's hard for me to put myself in your shoes because on the one hand, what you're saying now is very even keel and correct. Don't give these guys what they want, which is some little clip that he can use to get attention, to sell things to the incels that think that he's tough and sit in their basement, etc. Don't do that. On the other hand,
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Fuck these guys like they they instigated the violent attack on all of you who are just doing your job. And so, you know, maybe they need to be get a taste of their own medicine. Right. Like, I understand the second impulse. It has to be a little tough to understand. You know, restrained.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I gotta tell you, I was watching that live, suffering for you, and when he said, oh, let me see, she'll have an exception, for a half of a second, for like a millisecond, I was like, oh man, is he going to acknowledge that Pam Bondi doesn't have to do what he says? And then he obviously is like, no, that was a joke, actually. Everyone does exactly what I say because I'm the king.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
True. Accurate. It's important to be accurate when you're leveling criticisms, particularly on the bulwark. So I played a clip of you from when you were on stage. So folks who don't have the backstory. So this was an event with a bunch of different panel discussions. You and Harry Dunn and Akil Ganel were on stage discussing January 6th. That was before these guys showed up.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
When you were up there, you talked about how the pardons were in part motivated by Trump wanting to have, you know, some muscle, wanting to have some people out there that he thinks will, you know, create trouble on his behalf and, you know, have his own militia or whatever. How do you kind of balance like that impulse with like the performative side of it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Like, you know, how much of it do you think is like real nefarious? People should be scared. And how much do you think is performative? I guess it's my question.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I was talking to Ryan Goodman about the legal side of this yesterday, but on these pardons, there was another situation where one of the guys that got pardoned when the police went to his home, he had grenades, he had a sawed-off shotgun, he had some other illegal weapons, he had some classified documents, I guess, he took from the Army.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
And the DOJ issued a statement yesterday that said, no, all that stuff is also included in the pardon. That speaks more to your point about how, you know, like he wants these guys out here menacing people, right? Like the idea that, you know, if the notion was just, oh, I want people to have a clean bill of health for what happened on January 6th because I thought it was BS.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Obviously, I disagree with that. But like if that was the only intention, then you wouldn't have your Department of Justice saying, oh, I also want to cover this guy who had grenades at his house.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Not to get too personal, but I do have to ask because the reports are out there, but like these guys are also coming for your mother. Is that is that true?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Man, how do you keep even keel on this stuff? Like I'm like the rage is building up inside me right now. Like the idea that somebody would come for your mother. I just I don't understand, honestly, like how you control it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Well, man, you can have a platform with us anytime to vent. Door's always open for venting because I just... Man, I got a lot to get off my chest. I didn't go through any of the shit that you went through. But these fucking these fucking pussies, man, I just I can't fucking take it. I just they're so loathsome and so cowardly that we can we can vent about them more another day.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I want to pick it right on one other thing while I got you, though, because if we're going to do politics and affect change. One group that the Democrats have really struggled with in convincing about the negative side of the MAGA movement is guys like you. To be, for lack of a better description, it looks like you've got a little American flag back there. You worked in law enforcement.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Yeah, God help us for sure. We're going to get into wannabe trillionaire hour here. A lot of news in the wannabe trillionaire class. Jeff Bezos yesterday at the Washington Post put out a statement about the plans for the Washington Post editorial page. He's fired the existing editor, David Shipley. I want to read a little bit from the post here. He said, I'm with you there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
A lot of law enforcement people went for Trump. You got tats. I assume you know your way around Zinn or some dip. You might know some MMA fighters. These are the guys that have been moving more and more towards Trump and MAGA. And so I just wonder, why do you think that is? And do you think that there's...
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
some kind of message or some kind of way manner of speaking that might like break through about the kind of nefarious shit that they're supporting. Cause like, I'm not talking about the dudes with the red hats. I'm like, there's some people that are unreachable. I'm talking about the more of like the nonpolitical, you know, kind of guys, working class guys that have been drawn in by Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Obviously, I agree with that. I've been banging the drum on that. Back to the defunding the police thing, because then thinking about, OK, let's be constructive, right? Like, how do you how do you break through? And I don't know if like FBI.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
agents are not as whatever sympathetic as regular cops right like it's a little bit it's a little different it's obviously different that somebody it's like a neighborhood cop right but still like it's the republicans right now that are fucking over cops at least federal law enforcement right and i do feel like
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
At some level, there's got to be a way to break through with folks by talking about just like the damage that they're doing to federal law enforcement, to vets, like who are losing their jobs, to regular, you know, people say like, oh, federal government employs bureaucrats. And like they picture some like guy in a suit on K Street.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Like there are a lot of people who work for the federal government that are working class people, you know. I'm wondering if you think there's kind of an opportunity there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
We'll cover other topics, too, of course, but viewpoints opposing those pillars will be left to be published by others. There was a time when a newspaper, especially one that was a local monopoly, might have seen it as a service to bring to the reader's doorstep every morning a broad-based opinion section that sought to cover all views. Today, the Internet does that job.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
It's all fraud. They're defrauding, stealing fraud.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
We're going to be bringing you back. I want to pick your brain on this as in a feat, you know, GW grad that lived in the Denver suburbs growing up. You know, I like sometimes I do my best, but like, I feel I've got a cultural gap sometimes with some of these folks that, uh, Some of these voters that we're struggling with to convince. So I want to bring you back, chat about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
And unfortunately, I think there's going to be fucking more news on the law enforcement front and the pardon front and the proud boy front. We'll have plenty of plenty of things to talk about. All right, bro. All right, man. Look forward to it. All right. Thanks so much to Michael Fanone. I love that dude. That is just a great American. Great father.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I'm so happy to have him and give you a little bonus segment on the pod today. Appreciate also my man, Mike Murphy. As I mentioned at the top, I'm going to be at the Muses Parade tonight. So we'll see out there. Neutral ground side. If I'm not at 100% tomorrow, I've got great news. We got the best podcast guest around to carry me. So we'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I am of America and for America and proud to be so. Our country did not get here by being typical, and a big part of America's success has been freedom in the economic realm and everywhere else. I got a lot of thoughts on that. What are yours?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I also have a bonus segment for everybody in segment two, so stick around with Michael Fanone. It was going to be a YouTube-only thing, but Fanone was so good yesterday that the audio people got to hear it too. So stick around for Fanone. Because I know show business, I'm going to start with something here that both of us hate to admit and that the audience will hate to hear.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Just the two of you, or it was like a group thing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
what I think is going on is the blue origin stuff, right? Like you need Trump for blue origin for space and that's not really money. You do need, you know, government to either fund it, deregulate it, right? Like at some level you need government involvement there. And so I guess maybe some worry about Trump, but also maybe he's been red pilled. I don't know. Like his statement is,
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
At some level, if somebody came to me and said, I'm starting a new or I've taken over the post and I decided to just get rid of the opinion page together. A lot of great people over there. I would feel bad for them. I'd hope they'd find another job. But I would understand the argument. A newspaper doesn't really need an opinion page anymore because of the Internet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
That part of the argument for me works. Then the next step, though, to say, well, we just need to imitate the economists and the two existing editorial pages. We are going to ban all counter viewpoints in the name of freedom. That's the bad one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Yeah. And then it's like. I also want to be unapologetically about freedom in the economic realm, like says the person who is like mouth is on the teat of the government in like so many different areas. I mean, I think about all the ways that Amazon has like has tried to tilt the market in their favor with various regulations and local. You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Like it's not this is not Reason magazine here. I like it. Like Bezos's hands aren't clean.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Does that sound like a good way to start the podcast? Yeah, yeah. Reach for the mute button, America. But... Did you watch any of the cabinet meeting, the four pay-per-view cabinet meeting yesterday? Did you catch any of it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
And it's also not going to help the businesses, right? No. That's why it's just such an interesting thing. It hurts the business. People are unsubscribing. By the way, if you've unsubscribed from the post, the Bullard Plus is available. So it's not helping the business. You know, and it just doesn't make sense across any.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
And then also just morally and ethically, like the threat of Trump, you want people to challenge, like the post this paper record in DC should be challenging the status quo, not like doing like wink, wink America first stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Yeah, let's get into that. Let's get into Elon. I want to get your take with your EV hat on in a second. But just like biggest possible picture, Thoughts on Doge and what Elon's been up to?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
And putting your conservative hat on. I just, I ask everybody what the conservative disposition, this question on here, cause I'm just trying to process it myself. Do you see any case for the idea that it's just like, well, just slash 30% across the board, you know, see where the chips fall. We'll fix it on the back end.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
And like, that's the only way to break up, you know, these entrenched interests that have gotten sclerotic. I don't know. I saw one of your old clients, some Meg Whitman at an event recently. And Meg was like, Meg hates Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We're in carnival season. I'm in my James Carville rugby shirt. It's Muses Thursday. I'm delighted to be here today with a veteran Republican strategist, an OG Never Trumper. He worked for McCain, Schwarzenegger, Romney, Jeb. You might have heard of them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
And so like this was, she was, this was not a pro Doge comment, but she's like, I've been in government the last few years, you know, having been appointed by the Biden administration, there's definitely some room to cut some stuff. So I don't know. Is there, do you see any argument for that at all?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Yeah, and that's continuing. So Sam Stein has reporting for us in the newsletter this morning that there's a new round of global health cuts, right? Like, so you got one judge that's putting a freeze on one set of cuts in various USAID and foreign programs. And that is now up to the Supreme Court. Roberts is looking at that. Meanwhile, they have not done what the judge told them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
They've continued to freeze the cuts that are initially froze. They're like, whatever, come and make me, I guess is Elon's point. And then they've added on top of it another round of cuts, including things they said they weren't going to cut, including PEPFAR, the AIDS program that W is so proud of.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
All right, well, good. Maybe our listeners will like to hear your opinion because I was about to give a wrong thought, which was the substance was gross. We'll get into that. But boy, I thought the PR was pretty good yesterday. And I just think that Trump... Being in that room, it had kind of a question time British vibe. He was insulting J.D. Vance over in the cuck chair.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
I mean, honestly, that's how dark the situation is. That's like the best case scenario that the Chinese actually fill in. You know, because they're like real deaths. We're trying to track down for YouTube later so people can… can look at it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
But, you know, Jeremy Konindik, who led the US government's response to Ebola, was posting just today about like, how they again, this is one of those things where they said that they are going to do a carve out for this, but there hasn't been any and these groups in Africa, the NGOs are just shutting down. So there's like real human cost to this for like, is there even any benefit, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mike Murphy: The Chinese Own Elon
Like, like, no real benefit, I don't think budget wise.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Hey guys, I don't know about you, but sometimes those late in the day coffees are starting to catch up to you in middle age when you're trying to get to bed. And if I need something a little stimulant before a, particularly before a late night MSNBC hit or a late night YouTube taping for you guys, I'm looking for something that's not going to keep me up all night.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
And one such option is the sponsor of today's show, Mudwater. Maybe you're thinking about shaking off the winter blues or focusing on your wellness or simply finding a new way to feel energized throughout the day. Here's the change you can actually stick to. Ditching the endless cups of coffee for something better, mud water.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
If you're looking to cut out those coffee jitters or avoid that afternoon slump, mud water is the perfect nourishing drink to help you power through. with a blend of cacao, chai, turmeric, and adaptogen mushrooms. It helps you feel much more focused without the crash. It's smooth, steady, and honestly just makes you feel better. And it's easy.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Keep your energy natural and refreshing all year long with Mudwater because life's too short for anything less than clean, delicious energy. Just listening to you talk about veterans, we started talking about the patriotism. I was talking to James Carville on the podcast last week, a couple weeks ago. Time's a fucking flat circle, man. It's hard to keep track these days.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
I'm sure it's for you more than me. I'm just a podcaster. You're running a state. Anyway, I was talking to Carville, and he says, kind of as an aside, he's like, I don't think that Donald Trump actually loves the country. I can't say that he does.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
And I was listening to that and I just, I wonder what you think about that because I know that they do a lot of flag waving, but to me, I don't see a lot of evidence that he loves the country flaws and all. I think he's somebody that loves himself.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
It's not really about making us stronger either, right? You know, also, I just like look at how he's dealing with Canada and Putin, right? The trend across all of these things to me is who sucks up to him the most, right? And that's different. That's different than loving the country, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Do you think he even sees a difference now that he's been president twice between the country's interest and his interest? I don't think so. There's no evidence of that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Yeah, we're the world's dream team. But it's kind of like everybody's Isaiah Thomas now. We're just cutting you out. Sorry, bro. No Isaiah's welcome anymore on the dream team. All right, man. That's right. That's an elder millennial joke. For people that were there in 92, formative years, the early dream team drama. He wants to make us the 1988 Olympics. The 1988 Olympics.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
And not the 92 Olympics. Just the college guys.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
You know, good fundamentals. All right, I want to do a little Maryland talk, and then we're going to end with politics and fun stuff. But, you know, you're actually the governor. You've got a day job. You've got a housing act right now that's going through.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
It seems like maybe there's a little problem. I don't know. I'm not up to speed on, like, Maryland legislative drama that closely, but I've been doing a little Googling, and, you know, it seems like there's some pushback on some of this. Of course there is. Housing is just such a – yeah, so it's such an important issue.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
So anyway, talk about what you're trying to do on housing and what the politics of it are.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
I want to pick up a couple of those points. But for people who don't know you, who are being introduced to you now, you reference your background and how this is tied into your background. So talk to us about that. You're a veteran, you know, growing up. Give us a little TLDR on Wes Moore's life story.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
The holdups are what? Like just nimbyism, red tape, environmental review? Like what is it? All of the above?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
What's happening with the Key Bridge rebuild? Last time I was doing Maryland Talk on here, it was with one of the reporters. I think it's the Baltimore Banner right after that happened. And I guess I don't know the latest. How's that going?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
One other thing you're working on for this year, you're talking about your state of the state. And I'm aligned with you on the message. Some of the details we'll talk about here for a sec. And it is trying to deal with the issue facing young men.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
And I think that there's been some critique of the Democrats, and everybody really, but the Democrats in particular, that there's been not a lot of focus on how young men have been falling behind. And there's been focus on other demos. A couple of things you've brought up, male paternity leave.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Increase the male teacher share, increase male health care providers, nurses, educate providers about male suicide rates. So talk about that plan and what else you got in mind.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Man, we're surviving. We're living. We're out here. We talked the first time. I'll admit to you right now on the podcast, I was a little hungover. I forget why. I think I was on my book tour when I was writing a book and I was supposed to interview you. We were on the phone and I was like driving between the Atlanta stop and the Tallahassee stop and I'm hungover.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Yeah, I'm curious about your thoughts on the cultural element of some of this, because I'm for all that stuff that you said. I think that it's important the government do what they can on the edges. I think that we need more men teachers. And I think that would make a huge difference in the lives of young men to have more men teaching in schools and to have that kind of role model.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
But I don't know, man. Part of this, I think, is part of the problem with men is that there is like this sense of status loss. Like as the women have started to succeed more, as women are doing better in school, and there's this ego element to it, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
That's like, oh, man, now I'm depressed because it's harder for me to date because the girls in the dating pool, they're succeeding more than I am or whatever. And I don't know that getting them a job, all respect to nurses and teachers, but I don't know that getting them a job as a nurse or a teacher,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
And for some of these men is going to solve that, like that more deeper problem of status loss, of falling behind, of not making the kind of money that their dad or granddad made. I don't know. What do you make of that? I hear you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Okay. We shouldn't be putting handcuffs on anybody's wrists for tagging. I agree. That's just criminal justice. Woke Tim's coming out here now. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
You should not be doing that. But anyway, okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
And part of that, I mean, this now does get us into the election, but it is related because part of that is like what you said at the top about trying is the first step, right? And there is at this point on all the panels after the election, this is like a little fact that gets brought out a lot, which is that the DNC had a list of like – affinity groups that they were reaching out to.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
It's everything under the sun. It's like AANHPI. It's queer. It's veterans. It's old. It's young. It's everything. It's youth. It's everything except boys, men. And girls, too. Yeah, girls are on there, right. So it's literally any group you could imagine. And so then my question is, like, okay, is the answer just adding boys to that list, or is it just –
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
All right, last thing on this. Some of the listeners of this show are, you know, particularly if you're like me, if you're white, you didn't know a lot of black folks, you're liberal, you fucking hate Donald Trump. You look at Donald Trump, you're like, this is a racist bastard.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
You're like, I don't know, man, this guy's out here saying, oh, you got to say to black, you know, people want to feel seen. How did Donald Trump make them feel seen, right? And if you just look at the numbers that David Shore did analysis this week, 18, 19, 20, 21 year old black men according to his data analysis, went for Trump narrowly.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Even if that's wrong, even if it was 60-40 for Kamala, that is just a drastic change. And these young guys then decided something about Trump appealed to them. And what was it? How do you explain that?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
All right, we're going to close with some bro talk. All right? Another group the Dems are struggling with is the bros. It's the Dem politicians I'm having on the pod doing a little bro trivia with them, you know, to make sure. So just in case in the future if you need to go on Joe Rogan or Barstool or one of these, you're prepared.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
You're a football man. I saw you doing Maryland practice with them. You do the Oklahoma drill. What kind of drills were you doing? I did a whole full practice with them.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
What position were you playing?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
How was that? How was that? Or just in the drills?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
We've had to see our Secretary of Health and Human Services shirtless because he goes to Barry's or he goes to whatever that fucking gym is in Venice. Not Barry's, whatever that gym is in Venice. Gold's.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
He goes to Gold's in Venice. What's your lifting routine, you think?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
You think you can take RFK in a bench, max bench?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
I noticed that flavored vapes are prohibited in Maryland. That might be a problem for you in the borough outreach. What's happening with that? What if somebody just wants to have their little creme brulee vape? What do you got against that in a free country?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
What's your crypto familiarity? Are you doing any crypto investing? You in on ETH or anything?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Yeah, I hear that. All right, last thing. Have you ever been to an SEC game? Ever been to like a real college football game? Oh, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Okay, whatever. You haven't been to an SEC. You're not real. I've been to a Maryland game. That's not nothing. All right? That's not. We're coming up. You ever been to Tiger Stadium? You ever been to Athens?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Yeah, I guess. It's a little different. I don't know. I've never been to the big house. I went to an Iowa game kind of thinking it was going to be a big deal when I was working in Iowa. And there's just nothing like Tiger Stadium, man. We'll get you down here. We're going to get you to Tiger Island. You can come on down. We'll do the rounds. You know, we'll get Carville out there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
And I saw you do a keg stand. We'll get you doing a keg stand and show you how it's really done. All right. That sound good? That sounds good to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
You holler at me. That's Governor Wes Moore. I appreciate you very much, my friend. And let's do this again soon, all right? Hey, bless you, Tim. I appreciate you, man. Thank you. All right, sounds good. Everybody, I'll see you back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. See you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
The Board Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
you know democrats are struggling to read i do outreach to tech bros these days and you just used exit as a verb so i think i think that could give you a little you know maybe a little help a way to connect with the you know that's real man that's real look all right here's the thing when you were talking about how you still feel patriotic you love this country flaws and all sitting here in my head i bet some listeners are doing and that and i'm kind of like
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Did it crack at all in November, that belief in the country? I mean, it feels like I've been so lucky and I'm so privileged. I've had such a great life. And so I feel almost silly kind of saying that my faith in the country is cracked when you're like telling a story about your grandfather getting kicked out of the country by the KKK. But I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
How do you live your life story and then see what the country decided to do in November and still have that optimism?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
I'm like, shit, I got to talk to Wes. I got to interview Wes more. Anyway, that was during your 22 campaign. And during that interview, You were kind of talking to me about how the Democrats should kind of recapture this mantle of patriotism. There's a way to do to sell patriotism, progressive patriotism. And that's kind of what I framed the article on.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
What do you need me to say? I don't know. What do you want? Tell me about what you're having for dinner tonight. I can't salvage.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
And so now we're three years later, Trump's back in there. Kamala tried to do a little bit of this. It was a pretty patriotic campaign. I'm just wondering what you think about that. Is that still a fruitful path? Is that still something you're trying to do? Like, where are you at on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Let's talk about this in practice because you're living a good example of this. I think the Democrats are in a tough spot on this because I hear you when you say the Democrats can't be defending the status quo. Obviously. It's not what people want. You just have to listen to voters. Voters don't want politics as usual. They don't like the status quo.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
They don't think the status quo is working for them. But then Trump gets in there. And he's like, we're just going to willy-nilly fire all these government workers. We don't care about any of these institutions. We're going to tear them all down. And now you're there in Maryland. A lot of those employees work in your state, right? Some of those institutions are headquartered in your state.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
And so you've got to defend the institution from these attacks from this guy, but also not be the guy that's defending the status quo. How do you do that? That's tough, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Could not be more delighted to welcome for the first time the governor of Maryland, Wes Moore. What's going on, Governor?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
There's been so much shit happening up there. And so you can take this question as about Doge or about anything. But what has struck you from the first two months that has gotten you the most upset?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1004: Wes Moore: The System Doesn't Work for a Lot of People
I'm sure you're kind of on whatever chats, texts, message boards, people, veterans from your time that are not particularly political, per se. Is this bubbling out there? Is it percolating?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
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The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
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The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Speaking of those premium fabrics, we have a little cold front coming through New Orleans. Why? I have no idea. I moved here to avoid having winter, but I guess we have one more winter chill coming our way. And so yesterday, I put on the newest item that I got from Quince. It's like a cozy long-sleeved tee. You might have seen me wearing it. It matched nicely with my pearls. And boy...
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yuri Bezmenov, the Russian KGB guy said that, you know, their goals was to change people's concept of reality. What better way to do that than to put a Cuban neocon expat and the State Department together? It's confusing people. It's what would he be doing differently if this weren't the case, I guess would be another question that I would ask.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
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The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Go to quince.com slash the bulwark for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash the bulwark to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash the bulwark. Let's talk about the project. I guess let's start with the political and then we'll get to the substance.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I can't decide whether Trump getting away with distancing himself from Project 2025 was a failure of the media, a failure of the Dems, or just like... And yet another example of a strategic move that only Trump can get away with because he's so shameless.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And there's like no other politician that would have the balls to just be like, yeah, this thing that's on paper that all of my advisors plan on doing, like, I have nothing to do with that. I don't know. What was your sense about that? I mean, obviously, you're writing this at some level during the campaign when all that was going down.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
You remember why? Like, it was because the Biden debate was so bad. Right. They're desperate for anything. I was like, we need a talking point. So, like, we're going to do Project 2025. And it did kind of work. You're right. Credit is due there.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I do think, though, in spite of what you're saying about the blue bubble, he did kind of get away with it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
At least on the particulars.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
As far as people not really... It ties to the other topic. Not really believing that he was going to go along with the most extreme shit that... that somebody in the basement of the Heritage Foundation came up with. But like, that's what's happening. So I'm wondering, given that you wrote the book, I'm going to assume you've read all 900 pages. I have.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
What so far in this first month, like what is being implemented? What isn't? What might be next? Just give us kind of a rundown of how the pamphlet matches up with what we've seen so far.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
What would he be doing differently if he weren't a long running communist Cuban asset? I don't know. I know that the Atlantic has kind of different standards than what we're offering here on this podcast. So I don't want to put you in a corner. But you have to admit that you're a little intrigued.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
When you say Elon is hijacking it, I mean, he's hijacking the process or the aims? You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah, because he's getting to the same aims, basically.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
there are a few clowns there's peter navarro there are a few clowns in project yeah but yeah but russ vote is somebody who's like he has thought a lot about this and elon doesn't know how the basics of the government work and we're seeing that every day and the more niche the sections like the more serious the people are like you know because i would i was flagging through it and like for having worked in politics like i'd be like oh that guy's in there you know it'd be like the serious person that i would call you know that when i was on a campaign you would call when a policy issue came up you're like oh that's the person that you talked to about monetary policy or
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
You know what I mean? So there were, like, the more niche, the more serious. And then there was kind of some clownish culture stuff in there on top.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
What about, like you wrote specifically about the Department of Education. That's something that kind of everybody knows is coming next. So talk about what their plans are and like what the real life impacts of that are going to be.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I mean, that I guess comes in conflict with the Elon stuff at some point, right? You know, because also if you're just canning like people ad hoc, you know, because they have a probationary status, right? Right. Like that is, you know, and your goal is to find things to cut. Like that's that's different than block granting, obviously.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
You do? Because I don't know. I kind of imagine it's hard for me to get inside Russ Vogt's head that I'm going to do my best. I kind of imagine that he's pretty titillated with the fact that he might be able to get some of his aims here without actually going through the arduous legal process. I think back to that secret interview that he did with the Canadians where he's talking about
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
How much work he put in over the last four years on making sure that these efforts to call the civil service, etc., have legal standing so they don't get overturned like so much stuff did in the first Trump term. And then here you have Elon just, like, using a sledgehammer. But, like, you'll get some percentage of the vote goals just through that, right, at the start.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Well, we're going to keep thinking about it. Unfortunately, I don't have like Elon Musk won't come on to kind of like chief the joints with me and like really ruminate on it like Rogan does. But we're kind of dipping our toe in the water of conspiracy podcast content and we'll kind of see what the people think. Who's going to be your Elon of the left for podcasting purposes?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Because, like, some people just quit. You know, some people decide they're not going to come back to work. And in some ways, maybe that makes what vote is trying to do easier.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Is there anything else, anything that's in there that you feel like has not gotten the media attention? I mean, there's just so much shit happening. You know, I just wonder if anything jumps out at you having written about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah, but you're seeing some prime examples of this that have already backfired, like Darren Beatty, who we wrote about. They were trying to put in Secretary of State as Marco's deputy, and that lasted about eight minutes. Though, I guess Ed Martin in the U.S. Attorney's Office, that's actually seemed like that's going to, who knows, that might stick. So, I don't know. It becomes challenging.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I talked to Banner about this once. Well, I was like, a big problem that you have is you don't have the horses to do all this. There's not the bench of actual people. I mean, the type of person that wants to advance the most radical elements of... MAGA or of Project 2025, there isn't like a huge number of them that are like Ivy League grads that are like wanting to work in the federal government.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
You know what I mean? Like it takes time to build that.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
That is a great question. That is a great question. It's hard to imagine Reid Hoffman coming on the podcast and getting really high with me. So we need to think about who else that might be. Maybe the listeners have some suggestions. On to actual news. So Trump yesterday put out a lengthy statement attacking Zelensky saying that he's a dictator.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I want to talk about the Dems a little bit. I want to see what you're seeing in your blue bubble in Durham. There's a CNN pullout this morning. 73% of Democrats or Democratic-leaning voters say the party is doing too little to oppose Donald Trump. I think it was like 4% that said that they're doing too much. So if you're one of those, there you go. You're the few, the proud.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I've been in the 4% side of a ball before, so sometimes that's righteous. I think that there is the potential for... A Democratic Tea Party brewing right now. I feel like I've seen this movie before, that the voters are more upset than the elected officials are, that they're looking for a rabid takedown.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
and that you don't really know what will set it off i mean like the tea party thing in retrospect like it's absurd to think that it was about spending you know but it's like the cnbc the rick santelli rant was about people being resentful that they were bailing out their neighbors underwater mortgages and then it like turned into a balanced budget thing and i was like really it was kind of like a racial resentment or it was like really it was just kind of like a hating obama thing
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And there was a lot of people that wanted to fight him. And John Boehner just was not up for that. And I just kind of think that that's coming for the Democratic congressional members. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah. And maybe Elon is the flashpoint. Maybe it's an anti-billionaire thing. Maybe it's something about the actual ramifications of what... At this point, you're not going to have a tea party filled with upper-middle-class college graduates who lost their jobs in the government. Not that many of those people haven't gotten screwed over and that many of them aren't sympathetic. There are.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
There are certainly sympathetic examples, examples that are particularly sympathetic. So it's probably not going to be that. But I do think that Elon, as a flashpoint, is potentially it. And I think that...
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
you could probably finagle an outsider populist type rage that unifies people that have pretty different actual ideologies on the left, like people from Bullock people all the way to like lefty people. Like if it's, Aimed at the right person, you know what I mean? Like if it's just oppositional, right? It's like deal with the details later on what comes next.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
But like, I wonder if there's like kind of a populist oppositional posture that could that could animate it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
which is a strange pejorative for Trump, since he usually really is kind and complimentary to dictators. Today, the G7 was trying to put out a statement on the third anniversary of the full-scale invasion into Ukraine. The U.S. is opposing the statement because it calls Russia the aggressor, apparently, according to some reporting in the FT and others.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Trump is the king. So he says. So he says. The king is back. I don't know. You'd think there'd be something there. I like Hakeem Jeffries. I don't really have anything in particular against him, but his temperament is not one of channeling You know what I mean? I talk about this a lot with Jeb. I'm like, what I missed. And we're actually on the nine-year anniversary of Jeb's concession speech.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
If you want to go back and read it, I think it was pretty well written. I had a lot of good points. You know, I remember being with him. one day when the polls were really bad and, you know, I was trying to buck them up a little bit. And I was just like, look, if the people want like Trump's anger, you know, Trump's just like desire to burn shit down, then, uh, There's nothing you can do.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
You know what I mean? Like, you can change your posture. You can be tougher, Jeb. Like, we can put you in a new outfit. You know what I mean? Like, you can change your rhetoric. You can talk about different issues. Like, it doesn't matter. It's like it isn't in your constitution. And I do kind of feel that way about the current democratic leadership, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Like, it's like nothing against any of them or any of their policy issues. And it's like, if the people are filled with rage and want to rage against the Trump and Musk duo... then they need somebody that leads them that is capable of channeling it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah, I agree with that. You write on your skeet. You're over on Blue Sky now. What's the deal with that? Why are you skeeting?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah, I'm locked out of my account. I still haven't figured that out yet. I'm kind of happy about it. I don't know... I don't know that I want the most annoying people on blue sky to be impacting my, my view of the world. So it's probably good for all of us. You know, it's kind of like when I was 20 and I was like, I really need to do or 18 or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I was like, I need to go to college on the other side of the country from my mother. And it was really nothing against my mother who I love. It was just like, I think that we're going through a period right now where it'll be better if we're two time zones away. And I think that I might feel that way about some of the blue sky people, but you, you write on there that you,
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
You're a nouveau lettrist. I want you to educate me about the lettrists before I let you go.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Are there any newsletters that you're modeling yourself after? Do you have a favorite newsletter besides Jonathan Last's The Tryout?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Folks, sign up for The Atlantic Daily. Eventually, Jeffrey Goldberg will compensate me, at least give me a nice... I don't like steak. I was going to say a steak dinner, a nice omakase dinner or something out of this. But you guys go subscribe to The Atlantic. I have a bonus segment today. I taped yesterday for YouTube with my buddy Pablo Torre.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Dan Crenshaw, my old sparring partner, offered a theory on the Piers Morgan show yesterday that Trump...
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Some of you guys might know he was on Pardon the Interruption from time to time. He was a sports guy, but he's also a Harvard man and has a lot of deeper thoughts than just sports. So we were talking about the Trump... live golf PGA scam.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
It's hard to keep track of all the scams that are happening right now, but this weekend Trump is going to be holding a golf summit in Florida with the Saudi splinter golf league that hosts their events at Trump golf courses and the PGA, which refused to after January 6th. And so, uh, I think that he sees a way to get himself, get his courses back in play.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I'm glad that the president is really focused on this. I'm on the forgotten man and, and ensuring that golf returns to his golf courses. So Pablo and I got into that, but it kind of spiraled into a discussion about, you know, masculinity and the youths. And so I really enjoyed it. So I wanted people not to miss it. So we're going to include it on this podcast feed as well. So I appreciate Pablo.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
gives negative names to people that he really likes and like butters up his enemies it's all part of his strategy i'm a little confused by that i guess that would mean that he like really loves crooked hillary i don't i don't i don't understand how that theory works exactly so anyway i'm wondering if you have any thoughts on what we've seen over the last 48 hours
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I appreciate you, David Graham. Thank you. Thanks to David Graham. Up next, Pablo Torres. Hey guys, Tim Miller with The Bulwark. I'm here with Pablo Torre of Pablo Torre Finds Out Fame and, you know, a bunch of other stuff. Dan Levittard stuff, ESPN World Sports Commentary. I saw you at Nicole Wallace yesterday or Monday, so you're coming into my space as a sports commentator. That's right.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
All right. Well, I was jealous of Nicole that she got to hang out with you. So I messaged you. And the main topic here is this meeting happening this weekend about the Live Golf Tour and PGA Tour merging and Trump wanting to be the deal man in that merge. And some of our viewers might not give a fuck about golf, but I think this is very relevant in two senses.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
One, it is just going to be another example of a Trump grift. So I think it's worth talking about that part about it. But more, it also is like the golf world has like mirrored the political world and like this, you know, sort of decline in caring about principle or values or anything that we once held dear. So I want to just kind of cover both of those.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
But to do it, could you explain to any newbies like the live origin story? Give us like the TLDR on the live origin story.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
We remember Tiger Woods' first Masters dinner. That's right. And some of the jokes at his expense.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Prisoning of political foes, you know, and there's a case you always forget. They sent people to Canada to kill a political foe. They tried to do another bone sawing that failed. And that guy in Canada who they tried to kill, his teenage kids are still like in captivity in Saudi Arabia. So we could go on and on, but I just wanted to throw that one out there.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Let's get to the Trump part after one quick morality thing, because my brother from another mother, Rory McIlroy, is, I think, kind of like the tragic figure in this story. I see the resemblance. I do. Yeah. My little brother, like, really looks like him. He's much handsomer than me. And Rory, like... takes the moral high ground in this case, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And it's like, no, I'm not going to go take the money. I'll take less money to stay on tour. These are bad people. We shouldn't do this. We should have standards and values. And like, essentially what happens is we fast forward and now you get into the Trump world is like, the public just kind of didn't care. And Rory's competitors ended up making all the money and then getting everything.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
There was going to be a moment where people were going to be like, if you go take the Saudi money, you can't be in the Masters. You can't be in the US Open. And what ended up happening was everybody kind of folded. And they're like, well, the Masters US Open won't get as good ratings if we don't have the live people in there.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And so Rory lost all the money and all the people that did the bad thing got rewarded for it. And that brings us nicely to Donald Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
You know, what we never forgot is that we love cash. Cash is green. That's what we never forgot. And so if the Saudis want to have a golf tournament at Bedminster, it's good enough for the America First party.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I just wanted to make sure to include, you know, our flagship newsletter writer. I'm still waiting for Jeff Goldberg to start you know, giving me a little vague on the subscriptions that come in with all the Atlantic guests, but I haven't quite, I haven't quite cut the deal yet. I mean, I need, I need Donald Trump to do some deal making for me. That's right. Well, I wanted to start here.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
That's a good point about the big lie. I think there's also an ominous element to it. Like when you just think about this strategically, I talked about this earlier this week, was if you're Putin... Probably the best deal you could get out of this is to basically get Ukraine without having to fight anymore, right? And one path to that is by having Zelensky be overthrown and replaced with Puppet.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah, guess what? PJ's coming back to Doral. You know, PGA is going back to Bedminster. Whatever the fucking course is in California that he's got, you get additional stops there. Who the hell knows? Maybe the PGA Tour will accept Trump coin in exchange for, you know, tickets to other events.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
We don't know the contours of the deal yet, but seems like it's going to be a financially beneficial one for him.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah, because the Chinese don't count either. We were just interviewing Zeke Fox about the crypto stuff. And this guy, Justin Sun, this crypto magnet from China, who has some pretty illicit dealings himself, is like dumping tons of money into the Trump crypto. And like that, I... Somebody that would be disallowed from donating to his campaign as a foreign national.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Somebody that, obviously, if he was giving money to the Bidens, would have been seen as this huge attack on American patriotism. In addition to being corrupt, he's giving money to the Trumps, and it's like nobody cares. He's taking money from the Saudis, from Chinese crypto magnets, from everybody. And I guess that's part of the American first deal, because Trump is America now.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Maybe that's really it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Which is why I said it should have been Gulf of Trump. Just make a Gulf of Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah, just make a Gulf of Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I'm Dante, and I'm taking you one step lower into hell. We're going even deeper right now. Because maybe the one thing that the Saudis missed was that it turned out they didn't need to sports wash it at all. Maybe what it really turns out is that as long as they came with the money... everybody was going to eventually fold to their interests anyway, particularly in a Trump 2.0 world.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
How about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And it feels like... Calling him a dictator, attacking him, spreading all these lies about him. There was this other idiotic lie that Trump told yesterday where he said that Zelensky was sleeping and so he wouldn't meet with Scott Besant, who was the Treasury Secretary, who was there on a diplomatic engagement. That's not true. They met with Besant. He met with Besant. There are pictures of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
All the streams are crossing. All right. So this takes me to my other final topic for you because it's my obsession.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And what I'm going to be talking to people that I'm thinking about a lot over the next year or two is that we being, you know, whatever the defenders of liberal democracy or Democrats in some cases, however you want to put it, I've been bleeding support from young men, from the bros, so to speak. And this conversation is like kind of, I think it's,
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
speaks to the challenge right because if I'm coming into this as like a 22 year old dude vaping you know selling my fucking shit coin my fart coin right looking for nudes I'm just looking for nudes mostly Yeah, I'm like, I just stumbled upon this because I saw Pablo on TV one time and I thought this was going to be some fucking sports talk.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I thought we're going to be talking about how good Bryson DeChambeau's driver is or some shit. And I stumbled upon this. And what I got is these two fucking millennial scolds talking to me about how like, don't we have values anymore? Don't we? You know, and so I just I do wonder in like the context of sports.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Like how you think the live thing has been resonating with people who come from, not from the nine 11 era like us, but from, from younger folks.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Can I get some chocolate on the broccoli or I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
It's not the masters. It doesn't give you the chills when the music comes on. You know, you don't get the vibes. It's not the old flashbacks of Payne Stewart in the fucking pants. You know, it's worse. The product's worse. It's in shitification.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
All this attack is laying the groundwork for... for, you know, some kind of removal of him, right? Like it's coming up with a pretense that, oh, well, this isn't really democracy and we're going to do, you know, this or that and allow kind of Putin to get most or all of what he wants without having to do any more fighting. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah. Okay. I like this. This is how we're trying to reframe it. I mean, if you're the guy in the back-to-back World War Champ shirt, you know, drinking and pounding the natty light, we're on the bad guy's side now. You don't want this. We should be fucking kicking these guys' ass. We don't need their Saudi fucking money and we don't need them, you know, ruining our sports. Like, this is our shit.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
All right? Get in line. Maybe there's a jingoistic way to take this back from Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
No, they're plane jacking Air Force One from Harrison Ford right now. All right. Be fucking Harrison Ford. Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
That's Pablo Torre. Everybody subscribe to our feed, but go check out Pablo Torre Finds Out, which I love. It is, how should I put this? It is sometimes a welcome reprieve from the dystopia that is my life. Every once in a while, his shit overlaps with my dystopia, and that's good then too, but I enjoy it. It's plain listening for me. You know, it's evergreen.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I was on with him right after the election, so if you want to go see how sad I sounded then, you guys can go listen to that app.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
But I appreciate you all. Go listen to that episode of Pablo Torrey Finds Out. We'll be seeing you all soon. See you, brother. See you, Ben. All right. Thanks so much to David and Pablo. What a delight. We'll be back tomorrow for the weekend edition of the Bulwark Podcast. And I guess probably by then, Kash Patel is going to be the director of the FBI.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
So I'll have much to discuss on that and other topics with one of your favorites. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I want to offer one contrarian theory on this. It's always important to listen to contrarian points of view. Karl Rove wrote a column in the Wall Street Journal that was, I guess, co-published in The Australian, one of the other Rupert outlets. I'm going to give Karl the benefit of the doubt here. I did not pay for a subscription to The Australian to see if Karl actually wrote this.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
My suspicion is that this was the subhead. You always blame the editors. Somebody who was an editor, a politics editor for The Atlantic, you know that you take the blame. Of course. We're just going to give Carl the benefit of the doubt here and say that this was the editor's subhead on the story. But it says this. I can't even fucking recite. I'm sorry. I can't deadpan this one.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
All right, here it is. Here's the contrary view. It's possible Donald Trump is lulling Vladimir Putin while setting him up for a great fall. Maybe Trump has thought a dozen moves ahead and has Putin right where he wants him. David, what do you think about that? Is that possible that Trump is just 12 moves ahead of us on the chessboard right now? How are we after 10 years still saying these things?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Call your editor, Carl. Call your editor. It's not doing you any favors. So to this point about how the best thing to do when assessing Trump is to just actually take him at his word. You wrote about this recently in the newsletter, what your story was, the president keeps doing what he said he'd do. And some of his supporters keep being surprised.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And you kind of went through a litany of folks who over the first month here have been a little bit caught off guard by Trump actually following through on what, um, what the campaign indicated he would do. What have been some of the prime examples of that for you?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I want to do obviously a lot of project 2025 stuff. And there's been a lot of Ukraine news. But I want to start with this and just get your take on it. People keep demanding this Rogan of the left. And so I've decided that I'm going to try to fill the role from time to time when it comes to conspiracy mongering. Great.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
There's the Wall Street Journal. I just want to pick just on the Wall Street Journal because you'd think that they would have seen some of this coming. A couple of editorials that they've had recently. They're upset about Trump's rhetoric related to Zelensky, obviously. They are upset about the tariffs, naturally. They're upset that Trump is pushing Jerome Powell to lower interest rates.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
They think that is going to lead to more inflation. Those three topics... If there's anything that Trump has been consistent on, it's been abandoning Ukraine, tariffs, such a beautiful word, and that real estate guys should have lower interest rates for their deals. Immigration, I guess, is the only other thing you could throw in there that Trump has been consistent on since the 80s.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I have a little bit more sympathy for some of the other things you talked about, like the farmers, you know, who didn't like expect that their program was going to get cut or, you know, things of this nature. I think that when we're going to get into Project 2025, I think they're legitimate programs.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
People who are like, you know, cuts to the VA was not really part of his campaign, at least Trump, you know, if you consider the campaign, the Trump speeches rather than Project 2025, it wasn't really part of it. But I get the top level, the degree to which people. just were so credulous about this notion that this is all just a game and he's not really going to do it is like pretty shocking.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah, he calls Chuck Schumer the Palestinian, like as if it's, you know, the N-word or something. You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah, it turns out that wasn't meant to be a compliment. Yeah, okay. On the list of those people, Tom Tillis, I want to add, I'm curious what you think about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
If you're going to have Rogan on the left, you got to be comfortable with a little bit, you know, kind of dabbling in some conspiracies. And here's one I've been noodling on. Do you think it's possible that Marco Rubio is a Cuban communist agent who's been kind of playing the long game?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
This is an unpopular view that I bring up from time to time, so some people might get mad at me, but Gabe Sherman over Vanity Fair was a source that reports that Tom was telling people around him that the FBI warned him about credible death threats as he considered voting against Pete Hegseth's nomination to be defense secretary. And so, um,
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I guess that was a rationale that he gave some friends of his for why he was not going to do it. I just... I really struggle with this one. I mean, the threats out there are obviously real. People get threats. Public services is risky. But to me, this is just... Use your sounder, actually. You're living down there in North Carolina. To me, this is just like, I don't want to go...
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
What county are you in? What county is Durham in? I'm in Durham County. You know, I don't want to go to the Durham County Republican chicken dinner and get hassled. Like, I think that's really what's happening here. Like, I don't want to get hassled and I don't want to get primaried. And also, I've gotten some death threats.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And so that sounds a little butcher for me to talk about the death threats for why I'm not going to do the right thing rather than the actual thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
I mean, I think my theory is that he genuinely is repulsed by Trump or at least dislikes him, you know, and generally finds some of this stuff to be against what he would prefer at minimum. And so that is like the initial posture, but he just like hasn't decided that he wants to retire yet.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
right and like fundamentally it's just that like these guys refuse to try any sort of middle ground like they look at jeff flake they look at liz or whatever and they're like look if i if i fully oppose then i'm done and so i'll express dismay from time to time but like when push comes to shove i want to stick i just think i kind of think it's as simple as that
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And they placed him here and dressed him up as a neocon, just waiting for the right moment where they could take this patriotic explant and turn him into an asset that gives Russia everything they ever wanted.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome to the pod, David Graham. He's the new lead author of the Atlantic Daily Newsletter. He's got a book out in April, The Project, How Project 2025 is Reshaping America. What's up, man? How's it going? Well, welcome to the unofficial podcast of the Atlantic Magazine.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Which takes us to we have a vote today on Kash Patel. It is at 11 a.m. So we are taping before the vote. I'd love to be surprised. I would just be overjoyed to be surprised that for you guys to have this podcast drop in your feed, and you'd be like, Tim, you missed that one. The spine of the Republican Senate shows. I would love for that to happen. Don't see it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
You wrote about the great surrender. To me, the Kash Patel...
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
example is i i think the most extreme i mean you could make an argument to me for hegg seth because it was such a preposterous choice for a weekend tv show host to become the secretary of defense but not gabbert i mean i i again you know we're grading on the on a scale here i can understand why people would be most concerned about gabbert but like she was in congress you know i mean sure i don't know like she was in congress it's
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Like, it wouldn't have been a crazy choice for President Bernie to pick her for DNI, right? So it's not, you know, when it comes to resume. To me, Kash Patel has no experience in the Bureau. So there's nothing there. He's a compulsive liar, as your colleague Elena Plotko wrote in her great profile of him. He lied to all their faces.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
allegedly I just like a week and a half ago when they asked him if he was involved in the firings of the FBI and he said no so he has an enemies list and it's just it's a ridiculous choice to be the head of the FBI and the dangerous choice because of the lack of oversight he has and you know these people know it I mean he did the January 6th song like the prisoner song he produced the song of the prisoners that beat the cops like this person is gonna be the head of the federal of our federal law enforcement and
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
You wrote about the great surrender. I assume you're with me here that we'll just see a total fold on this in a couple hours.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah. I kind of feel like you need more of a psychiatrist to assess what's happening with Mitch than, you're right, than like a political analyst because to me it does feel like a rationalization thing. He's trying to convince himself that he's principled, you know? It's like a legacy reclamation sort of project.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
Yeah, a little bit about, I don't know, and I guess this is why you need a psychiatrist because it's maybe a little bit about legacy, but maybe more about how one feels about themselves until I spent some time in therapy. I think that maybe this is a little, like, I don't think that Mitch is in therapy, but I think maybe he's freelancing a little bit.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Graham and Pablo Torre: Is Lil Marco a Cuban Communist Agent?
And it's a little bit of he can retire knowing that, oh, you know, I held the line on the things that I cared about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Head on over to their website, unboundmarino.com, where new customers can use our code THEBULLWORK for 10% off their order. on the TPUSA thing, my remit in attending and observing those things is to actually talk to the attendees, right? It's not like the porn of, let's give these people the attention that they want, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And like, let them dunk on me so that they get more money for their YouTube, you know, so they can be like, oh, I attacked an Ever Trumper. I don't like to get involved in that kind of stuff. But I do think that engaging with the people that are consuming their, which you're right, their lies, just to be blunt about it, is something that is, I think, required. Some people have to do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Not everybody's got to do it. But I think that it's important to engage with those folks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Yeah, let's talk about that. So the number one person, maybe not number one anymore, but aspiring to be number one person they're consuming is Elon Musk, who now is running not the Fox News, but online, a very influential digital media channel that includes a lot of right-wing propaganda that he propagates to his millions of followers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
He is also, I guess, the deputy president or co-president or shadow president and potentially the Speaker of the House coming in. So we have over on the Hill... There was this continuing resolution, as we referenced earlier, which is going to fund the government for three more months.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Among the things that it was going to fund was assistance for rural America, for farm workers who are struggling because of some of the natural disasters because of interest rates. It was going to include a disaster relief for people directly suffering from the natural disasters and just, you know. paying federal government employees at Christmas, among other things. So Elon scuttles this himself.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And I'm interested in your take on what's happening. And then I want to get into your expertise of 19th century American history and talk about the parallels of what we've seen before when these kinds of oligarchs get their hands on the kitty.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Thank you. They have agency. I broke my own rule. Republicans have agency. They scuttled it because Elon told them to. Thank you. That's a good correction.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And it was taken over quite easily by him, you know, because what he did was he, he just revealed the truth of what is happening in Washington. And here's like the thing that the Republicans are able to get away with.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Yeah, it's actually in some ways an important lesson for our politics right now. I think that a lot of times that the Democrats are talking to people in just their silo and not kind of aware of what's happening in other silos, maybe more lowbrow than the American history silo. But, you know, there are other silos out there that it's important to reach.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And I think that the Democrats need to take this lesson very seriously going forward is that Washington has been run for quite a while by a secret Congress, essentially, like you're saying this was done in secret. It was run by the, a secret majority of adults, right? Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Which was most of the entire Democratic Party, basically, along with a handful of Republicans and Republican leadership that would work with them to do these CRs and to keep the basic functions running because they didn't want to deal with this crisis that they're dealing with now. And they did so and hopefully didn't get that much attention. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Especially when Steve Bannon was in jail, it got less attention for four months. So things moved a lot more slowly. Right. But those Republicans who are willing to be responsible only in secret are Now, we get to, you know, see the truth, right? Now, the curtain has been brought back by Elon Musk and by Trump, you know, with their huge megaphones.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And they're out there and they're saying, no, Elon in particular, no, we shouldn't do this. We shouldn't fund this. And now these Republicans are like, oh, wait, I can't go along with this. I'm going to get kicked out. You know, I'm going to have the same fate as Adam Kinzinger and Liz Cheney. Right. I'm going to be pushed out by these guys. And so I can't go along with this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And so now you see that really it was the Democrats that were the only governing party, whether you have criticisms about the way they governed, like they were the only ones that were doing the responsible elements of governing, you know, compromise, you know. giving a little bit to get a little bit, right? The types of things you have to do in a legislative system.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And so where it goes from here, I think is the open question. I sent the, there was a press release by the Farm Bureau today that was like, farmers can't wait a month. They need this assistance now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And my response to that is kind of like, well, you probably should have thought about that before, you know, prioritize tampons and boys bathrooms over actual, having actual adults in charge of the government. So here's where we are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
The second impeachment, the key one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Me and Sarah did. There was a vote. They lost voters. We won every single undecided voter. It was a sweep. Just saying. I was at our office. We were doing a little prep. Not much prep. It was a pretty easy debate. Not much prep. We were doing a little prep. Talked about the bulwark. And I look over. I was like, boom, there's a picture of me. There's a picture of me inside the Aura digital frame.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
It looked wonderful next to her desk. You know, you see, think about this as a gift for a grandma to just send pictures of the kids. Nope. This was, you know, one of the kids preloaded it for Sarah. It had pictures of all of us, the Bulwark people, all of our live shows, all of you right there in her office. It was awesome. Great gift for Sarah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames by using promo code BULLWORK at checkout. That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com, promo code BULLWORK. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. I'm curious to talk about the parallels, to go back to kind of McKinley.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Trump has dinner last night with Bezos and Musk. You mentioned how he said that all these people like me. He's really talking about a few people, Zuckerberg.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
benny off right that andretian like these big billionaires that have gone down to kiss the ring and who you know want to get their piece of the pie now from the next government musk it's tbd whether musk is financially motivated or whether he's motivated by like he just is getting high off this power and and you know wanting to be in control of everything all these other guys you know they want to get theirs out of this uh out of this coming government so i'm wondering the parallels between kind of that era that you've written about and
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
You know, particularly McKinley, who Trump has referenced several times.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Do you have any Grover Cleveland reading recommendations for me? I know there's a lot of the parallels between there now are pretty striking.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I couldn't be more delighted to welcome to the Bulwark the professor of history at Boston College, teaching 19th century American history. She also writes the newsletter Letters from an American on Substack with over 1.8 million subscribers. Her books include Democracy Awakening, Notes on the State of America.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I don't know. Do you have a late 19th century history class that I could take on the side when I'm not podcasting over the next six months? It feels quite relevant.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I can already tell you that the commenters on the sub stack are going to be like, I will sign up for the Carnegie Cleveland McKinley. We can do a little bit on the cowboy art on the side for fun. But I think that more apt to our moment is how we're going to deal with this situation. marriage of the big tech oligarchs and the aspiring anti-democratic Republican Party.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I have one final question for you. It's the toughest one I've got. Susan Collins is up in two years. Have you considered leaving Substack and running for Senate?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
This is your sacrifice. I'm asking you to sacrifice by sitting in these meetings with these awful people. I trust me. I'm not asking you to get all that's not going to be like, oh, candy and rainbows. I get to be a senator. I get a detail. No, it's going to be terrible. But you might you might be needed for the moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
That's fair. But the Democrats could use some people that say what they think, that have lobsterman husbands, that talk bluntly. This is a thing that I think the Democrats are missing a little bit. So anyway, well, prey on it. We have a week. You have a couple of months.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Thank you. Heather Cox Richardson. It was such a delight. Please come back. Her newsletter is Letters from an American on Substack, the book. I'm sorry. I had to go deep on Grover Cleveland, so we didn't even get to it. Democracy Awakening, Notes on the State of America. I assume that the shorthand there is the state of America is creaky.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I love that you mentioned that about your husband. And for our YouTube viewers, you can see it seems like you're in a cabin in rural Maine. And you also speak plainly. And I think people get confused about this, right? That it's like, no, you don't have to dumb things down for your people. But it is important to speak plainly, to not use unnecessary language that is jargon, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
All right. Everybody go check that out. Heather Cock Richardson, thank you so much. Have a wonderful Christmas and holiday season and hope to talk to you soon.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
All right. Tomorrow we got one more podcast before I go on a skiing vacation. So come back. He's a friend of the pod. You'll enjoy it. See you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
That doesn't relate to their lives. You know, you hear the James Carvilles of the world complain about the Democrats talking too much like college faculty lounges. You know, we have the CR that we're going to be talking about today. There are things and they're like, we're going to change the phrase out of school youth to opportunity youth. What is what is an opportunity?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Yeah, exactly. But it's that you buck that, you know what I mean? Like you take the audience seriously, and you write about serious weighty matters with leaning on history, but it's not, you know, some of the frou-frou stuff that I do think that sometimes people on the left get get wrapped around the axle about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Who is the fifth country in Five Eyes? I always am trying to remember. It's New Zealand. I believe it's New Zealand. I think it's New Zealand too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
It's Heather Cox Richardson. How are you doing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
So delightful. Obviously, given the fact that lots of people are reading your newsletter, many are familiar with you. But I kind of just wanted to start, for those who aren't, a little bit about your backstory. And then we'll get into the Elon of it all and what's our new... you know, kind of deputy shadow president. And we'll talk a little bit about that and historical parallels.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
That is such a great and important definition and distinction of terms. I'm glad that you made me be more precise there because sometimes it's good to choose interchangeably as shorthand, right? It's like the left is a stand-in for Democrats and other times not. And that's confusing sometimes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I literally did this yesterday where I was criticizing the left in the way you describe it, right, for some of their attacks on the Harris campaign. And I was speaking specifically about the group that are the, whatever you want to call it, the populist left, right? That does not really want to be in coalition with the Liz Cheney's of the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And you see these folks on social media and they have a defined worldview that they want to redefine liberal democracy and not lumping that in with old fashioned liberals, right? Like people that like the rule of law, want to protect it, right? want to reform it in various ways to make sure it's more fair. That is a real distinction.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And I think that we're going to see that fissure a lot over the next four years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
But, you know, you, at least to me, I just emerged from the ether, right? It's like, hey, there's this professor that has a newsletter everybody reads. And I'm just curious, like how that kind of came to pass and what, you know, got you into all this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And one of the challenges, I think you're uniquely suited to talk about this, because one of the challenges is elevating voices from that, the broad middle, right? Not maybe centrism, as some people might define it, but that broad middle that believes in those values you laid out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Because just the nature of the algorithms of these social media feeds, in addition to the Russian disinformation and the bot farms and the trolls that are paid to contaminate our discourse, right? But just the algorithms themselves, they reward things that are inflammatory, right? And so they reward people on the far left and they reward most of MAGA.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I don't even want to call it the far right because it's not really kind of equivalent. It's like 10% of one side versus 40% of the other side. But they reward the most inflammatory rhetoric. And you've managed to kind of break through that without succumbing to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Totally agree. Could not agree more, especially about going on to those other podcasts. It's something that I have on my to-do list for 2025. And I'm actually going to the Turning Point USA Festival as soon as I'm finished with you today. Because I think it's important to hear what they're actually saying, rather than just hear the snippets that you get on social media.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
and understand their arguments at a deep level. It's important to do that if you're going to be able to rebut them in any way. And look, there are certain people that are just going to be down this rabbit hole and be red-pilled and be an occult, but there are other people that we can pull back from the brink, but we've got to understand what they're consuming.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
going through the different other kinds of varietals. It's enjoyable. Maybe this means I'm in middle age. Maybe this means that I'm getting older. That's okay. I'm embracing it. I'm trying out the different kinds of wines. Naked Wine is helping me. How do they do it?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
They connect with winemakers and wine drinkers directly, allowing for vineyard-to-door delivery at up to 60% off what you would pay in store. By cutting out the traditional retail middleman costs and markups, winemakers can pass those savings on to you without skimping on quality. Naked Wines has been around for over 15 years and funds over 90 independent winemakers around the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Don't forget you can pause or cancel at any time. So now is the time to join the Naked Wines community. Head to nakedwines.com slash the bulwark. Click enter voucher and put in my code, TheBullwork, for both the code and password for six bottles of wine for just $39.99 with shipping included.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
That's $100 off your first six bottles at NakedWines.com slash TheBullwork and use the code and password TheBullwork for six bottles of wine for $39.99. Pete Buttigieg. We got the Buttigieg boys. The Buttigieg boys, yeah. I don't remember. Let's coin that. The Buttigieg boys listening. Some news for you. Pete Buttigieg not running for Senate in Michigan.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
There's an interesting, though, line and why in the Politico story. I can't remember the reporter that wrote that, but it wasn't exclusive. And they wrote that it was based on a belief that it would be exceedingly difficult to run successive campaigns in 2026 and 2028. Yeah. What would the 2028 campaign do?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
There are no rules in Trump 2.0, Sam.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Seems like it. Seems like Pete's running for president. We shouldn't do 2028 hot stove in March 2025, so I just want three sentences from you on his liability.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
How many sentences? Two sentences on this. Is he viable as a 2028 person? Oh, God, do we really have to do this? Just two sentences. The world is fucking falling apart. I know, just on two sentences.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
So I hope everybody sticks around for that as well. As I mentioned on yesterday's podcast, there was a kind of a quasi-CR. They're trying to call it a continuing resolution where they're continuing the Biden budget. With some changes. Some serious changes. Yeah. They're going to plus up funding for the military, deeply cut funding to Washington, D.C.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Yeah. Here's his big challenge for the next three years. He's gay.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I think it's a little bit of a challenge. We love and honor the gays. Here on this podcast, of course, the main challenge is the Democrats' big problem is with working class people and people who don't pay that close of attention to politics. Right. Does being able to speak Norwegian help with those voters? I don't know. There was a gag. I forget who said it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
It's like the old line in primary politics is there's always somebody in the beer lane and the wine lane. And Pete was running in the champagne lane. Highest education voters. And so the Democrats are struggling at the beer lane. I don't know. I think it's going to be tough to run for 2020 in the champagne lane.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
There it is. Who the hell knows?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
All right. Who the hell knows what 2028 looks like? All right. We're going to get serious. I've ignored the story this week to the dismay of some listeners. Yeah, too hot. Well, also, there's just fucking a lot happening. But I shouldn't have ignored it. JBL wrote a great triad on it. Mona's got a great piece on it. I'm about to read from it. Mahmoud Khalil. Am I pronouncing his name right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
He's a prominent Palestinian activist. He was organizing one of the main Columbia University protests after Israel started attacking Gaza after Hamas attacked Israel. He's in an ICE detention facility right now in my home state of Louisiana. Yep. Um, uh, and, uh, he just had a procedural hearing in New York where, and the result was he's still in detention in Louisiana.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Um, Mona Sharon writes this morning for the Bulwark. Uh, I think this sums up pretty good. This is the lead. Mahmoud Khalil could have been cooked up in a lab to offend, no worse to disgust me. And yet, despite temptation, I cannot endorse what the Trump administration is doing to him. What do you think about what's happened with Mahmoud Khalil?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
They're cutting some other discretionary funding. Elon isn't even listening to the – isn't even responsive to what they actually are passing anyway. This passed the House with one Democrat, Jared Golden, voting for it, but otherwise on a party-line vote. It now goes to the Senate. And it's a pretty complicated situation, actually, for the Senate.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I wanted to go to the law. So here's the law with regards to a green-collared holder. It says this. An alien whose presence or activities in the United States... The Secretary of State has reasonable ground to believe would have potentially serious adverse foreign policy consequences for the United States and be deported.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
It goes on to say, though, that they should not be deported for actions that would be lawful within the United States unless the Secretary of State personally determines that the alien's presence would compromise a compelling U.S. foreign policy interest.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
No, I think it's clearly grotesque. It's clearly chilling. It's also, again, like these weren't active protests, right? It also doesn't even make – like even if you –
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
agree like even if we're in the middle of the if you're in the middle of the columbia protest you're worried it's going to expand you know what i mean like but there's no fig leaf even here like this is like literally just we are going to punish somebody we want to send a signal that this type of speech is not welcome here right um you know the issue here
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And as the person who's been, like, screaming the loudest, do something, Democrats, stop them, fuck them up, do everything you can, the Senate calculus is, like, not actually that clear.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Just to say this, it's just ludicrous to send this fucking person to Louisiana to put them in an ICE detention center. Yes. Even if you agree – even if you're – You know, in the whatever, radical, if you're in the MAGA right wing of this and you're like, this guy should be kicked out. I'm very happy that he shouldn't have a green card anymore.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Like putting him in an ICE detention center across the country is a ridiculous thing to do. And again, it's an effort to intimidate. It's an effort to silence. It's an effort to punish this person.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
No, no, I think that... We're about to talk about it. But I'm just saying up to top that I think that it's a complicated calculus because... The Republicans do have the votes to pass this if there's no filibuster. So the Democrats have to decide, are we going to filibuster this? Are we going to block this from even coming up for a vote?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I'm more interested in the Rogans and my boy Theo Vaughn and, like, all the other free speech gut bros out in, you know, California that were acting like – The fact that they could not say faggot.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
They all just acted like the biggest threat to free speech in the world is if a social media platform deleted their post where they called somebody a fucking slur. And that was this big threat to free speech. It's a big threat to free speech. They couldn't post about their fucking horse pills that they pretended were fixing COVID.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Nobody came to their door while their wife was pregnant and was like, oh, we're going to take you away and send you to Louisiana. Of all places. Of all fucking places.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Like nobody did that to any – like the Biden administration, which their great crime was like some mid-level Biden staffer emailing Facebook being like, could you kindly take down this post that has totally wrong information about COVID? That was the threat to free speech that like caused this entire movement of supposed free speech warriors to like rise up and Mark Zuckerberg –
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
It's in the White House. This is a new era of free speech. Meanwhile, Mark Zuckerberg's fucking cutting deals with the Chinese and not saying a damn thing about this guy that's in prison. So anyway, I actually, just to be candid, just to close the loop on this, I have no idea what this person has actually said. So I don't really want to weigh in on what kind of person he is. The protests...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Like, that he was organizing had some signs and had some people involved in them that were fucking despicable. So, I don't know. But it doesn't, I guess my point is it doesn't matter. Like, it doesn't, at least with regards to the detention of this person.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Yeah. Whatever. If there's some evidence that he was communicating with organizers on the ground in Gaza. Charge him. Yeah. Charge him. Or then just strip his green card. Again, the one area where this is like – There really isn't any area where this is gray. But the one area that makes it complicated is that, again, he's born in Syria. He's a Syrian-Palestinian-Algerian citizen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
The British gave him security clearance for some reason, and I couldn't quite figure out why.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And so it's like, okay, if you have somebody like that that has a green card that's here legally that is communicating with a foreign terrorist group and the foreign terrorist group wants him to do the protests here and wants them to be violent or whatever because they think that helps their PR aims, then fucking take his green card and he can go home to Syria or Algeria or wherever he lived most recently.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I would be totally fine with that. That is not what this is.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
We walked into the office this morning, and you know it's a Sarah Longwell office when at the front there, there's a Wall Street Journal just kind of sitting there. It's a free Wall Street Journal at the front. Wow. So I picked that up, looked at a couple headlines. Okay. CEO frustrations with Trump over trade mount in private. In private.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Here's another one. So, consumer confidence is down. Consumer spending is down. CEO frustrations are up in private. Seems bad.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
We're good. Now you look at it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Well, they need eight Democrats to say yes to cloture. This is going to be annoying.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
The man that bankrupted 13 companies is bankrupting America? Yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
We have kind of a lot of them out there. It's been so chaotic.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I know. It's hard to keep track of them.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
We're tariffing Europe on steel and aluminum. Good. Get them. And they're tariffing us back. Good. We have tariffs on China, which is kind of a bipartisan issue. But here's the thing. The rate, it's at a higher number than during the Trump first term. So like... But we kept the one tariffs from the Trump first term because Biden didn't get rid of them.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And now we've added on top of that a 20% tariff, which is greater than the one from the first term. So very significant tariffs on China, some on the EU, and a lot of uncertainty with the Canada-Mexico stuff. I don't know. I say go further. Let's just tariff everybody. I do too. And he's fucking backed into a corner. My favorite story about all this so far has been Jamie Dimon. Oh, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Fucking Jamie Dimon. I hate these fucking guys so much. These guys, I hate them worse than the MAGA people. Okay. Give me 435 Steve Bannons in the Congress over fucking one Jamie Dimon. You have a soft spot for Bannon. Sure. That's a good point. Give me 435 Candace. No. No, no, no. Not for my people. Give me 435. I got to think about who it would be. All right, maybe not.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
But at least the MAGA people are genuine. This kind of got missed because Diamond's suck up to the Trump administration was not quite as totally fawning as all the tech bros. But sometime in January after the inauguration, he's like, everybody's got to calm down about the tariffs. Scott Besson's in there. People need to chill out. The economy did great the first time under Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
America's resilient. We got all of this. We're in good hands here, everybody. Calm down. It was yesterday, I believe, or maybe two days ago, the diamond during the earnings call. Diamond's like, we're seeing some pretty big issues with the tariffs as far as the impact on the business. And the banking sector is going to be the one to get us hit the worst.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And, you know, from an accelerationism perspective, don't hate it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Scott Besnan is a disaster. Scott Besnan has been a disaster.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
The person that has looked the best and the misses. Yeah, what was her name again? Bring them back. I forgot her name. Barry, what was her name? Louise Linton. Bring back Louise. What's she up to?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
She was there. She had the white gloves holding the money. I miss her. Bring back Louise Linton. Mnuchin was pretty good. I do have sympathy for the public sector employees. I want to grab you. You started a tip line for us. And I want to just get some, you know, what you've been hearing on the tip line. For people, though, that were not aware of the tip line, what is it again? Oh, God.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
TheBullock.com slash tips. Yeah. It's TheBullock.com slash tips. I knew that. I was just setting you up.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And we've been hearing from a lot of public sector employees and also private sector employees whose businesses are being affected by this because we live in a fucking complex economy these days. We can't roll things back to the 1850s.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
The tip line's been really... Also the tariffs they mentioned. They did mention the tariffs.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
No, no, it wasn't. Also, it announced their new task force, Just Doge. Oh, yeah. Just Doge.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
You've also gotten a lot from, like, the research community. Because that's a lot, that's a little less of a one-to-one than somebody who's losing their job. But it's like, you know, man, if you're doing research for... Oh, this is tragic, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Yeah, I had two tips recently. One came from the tip line, which I have to anonymize, but they were doing... healthy growing of local produce and no pesticides, all that sort of stuff, and selling it to the schools as part of a program where instead of getting your fruits and veggies from some fucking big truck that comes from the other side of the country, it's like a local farmer does it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
You would think this would be in the Maha real house. This would be about as Maha as you get. But no, Maha is going to steak and shake and having beef tallow fries and a Coke. While we cut the funding for the dudes and dudettes that are growing local organic produce and giving it to the school children. That's what they're fucking doing. That's number one. Number two is... That's incredible.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
That's so stupid. Here's the other one. This was not from the tip line. This was from... You're going to laugh at me. This was unintentional. I did not mean to be nosy. Everybody has to be careful on a plane. I'm on the plane here last night. Listening to you. I'm sitting next to a guy. I'm listening to Vannon. I'm listening to Patrick Bet-David. Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And I turn left, and I look at this guy at his computer. I didn't mean to read his computer, but the word MAGA just jumped out at me. And so I was like, okay. So I did the thing you're not supposed to do, which is I read the text that he was sending on this computer. And it was some guy that works for an organization coming to D.C. to beg for money. And the text said basically,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I mean, I didn't quote it because I didn't ask permission to look at his computer. But it was essentially, I found a woman that works for us with a southern accent who I think will better appeal to the MAGA types that we're going to need to convince to give us the funding. And it's just like, this shit is happening everywhere. You know what I mean? That is dystopia.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
She fits the part. We found a blonde from Alabama. Speaking of Alabama, I told people that we'd have fun at the end. That wasn't fun? Of the podcast. We're not done? Real fun. Oh, no, we're not done. We've got...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
We've got some new Steak and Shake content. This has been brutal. Since you didn't listen to Tuesday's pod, I can repeat it to you. This has been brutal for me because I grew up in St. Louis. I moved to Denver in middle school. Steak and Shake was like our celebratory meal, and I got a good report card. Is it any good? But still, I have nostalgic memories, so it hurts.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Okay, fine. We've got to close the pod. I'm in trouble. We're going to be late. We have a potpourri of Tommy Tuberville clips.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Okay, good. We're going to listen to three Tommy Tuberville clips.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
All of them are from yesterday. Okay. This is just three clips from a single interview.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
No. We are going to respond to each one at one time and do a brief reaction to each clip, and then I'm going to have you rank which one's best to worst, or the most timey to the least timey.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
We've got to treat all protesters the same. Send them to jail. Send them to jail. Send them all to jail. All right. And then the next sentence, the next thing is, I believe in free speech. Do you know what words mean? Words have meaning. Antonin Scalia wrote about this. This is when conservatives were conservative. Words have meaning.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Okay. Now, I just put a point on that one. In the South, we educate our kids on different curriculums. Everybody should do their own thing. There's a generous way to interpret that, and then there'd be a less generous. Very ungenerous. There'd be a very ungenerous way about the different groups that get educated in different segments.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Tommy. In the South. So that's the education plan. Let's listen to number three.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
No pain, no gain. He knows what he's doing. Does he know what he's doing? I don't think so. I don't think he knows what he's doing. Sam, what do you think?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I mean, send them all to jail would have been a more funny and less alarming quote if it wasn't for the fact that we're sending protesters to jail.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I hope the Glenn Greenwalds and the other big free speech warriors are happy about what they got, what they signed up for. Who could have predicted this? Last thing. Yeah. That was supposed to be the last thing, but you... You're on Real Time with Bill Maher this weekend.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Have you been on that before? You have. How many times? Like seven?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
This will be my fourth. Fourth time. How'd you do the other three times?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I do kind of have a memory of a sweaty Sam. A sweaty Sam? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
It's a different show. It's hard to prepare for. You're going to have a big job, though. That's putting pressure on you for number four. Yeah, because Bill and your co-panelist, Batya...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Batya is, these are very, these are people that, speaking of free speech.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Big free speech advocate. Batya was a Trump supporter and a big free speech advocate. There were basically two things that really motivate Batya. She is upset about the Democrats' assault on free speech. And she also thinks that the elite Democrats just don't care about the working man anymore, do not care about the working people anymore.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And so, you know, sometimes you play a little cool for school, but you've got to kind of buck up here because you've got to go to war. It's like, oh, yeah? Oh, yeah? Well, how's the working man's president? How's the free speech president doing? Bacha! How's the working man precinct president? Are people's paychecks going further?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
No. I just want you to have a little more verve. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Yeah, I just want you to take it to her.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Okay, so have you prepped any lines? No. Do you want to write any lines right now?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Okay, so we're going to do one role pleasure. Okay, I'm Bacha. You're Bacha. Sam, these liberal elites, they just don't get it. They just don't get it. All they care about now is just the deep state. It's Washington, D.C. Washington, D.C. is where all the money is.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
The richest people in the world are all in McLean, and they're all out there, and they're all going to each other's parties, drinking Cosmos, and they don't care about real people anymore.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
You better do better than that. Sam Stein, everybody else. What day is today? It's Thursday. I got to do this podcast again tomorrow. Oh, I might be out a little late tomorrow because my daughter is Hermes in the school play. Oh, nice. So we'll be taping the play or I'll be going to the play. I was running lines with her just like I was with you. She did better than you. I hope so.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And she was a little, you know, there's a little timidity. And I'm trying to turn her into the biggest ham in the play. That's going to be amazing. So we'll see how it goes. Congratulations. Thanks so much. Everybody else, come stick around. If it's a little late tomorrow, it's okay. You can wait an hour for me. Up next in segment two, we got Congressman Jimmy Gomez from California.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Stick around for that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Leasing cuts? I thought this was the law and order part.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
All right, and we're back. He's representing California's 34th district on the east side of L.A. It's Congressman Jimmy Gomez. Good to meet you. How are you doing, Congressman? Nice to meet you. I'm doing well. You know, I've noticed on social media, you've been getting a little spicy out there. And I'm looking for more spice from the Dems.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And so I'm just wondering, biggest picture, what's your take on the kind of best messaging and strategy right now for the party pushing back on Trump and Musk?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I'm with you on an economic message being powerful and compelling. And frankly, it was an issue for the Dems in the last election. That said, sometimes it's hard to break through, right? Just like talking about kitchen table issues. So, I mean, how can you talk about it in a way that gets through to people? Is it a contrast with Musk? Is it, I don't know, you tell me.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Yeah. What were the shitty jobs you did?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
It's enough to make me a vegetarian there, Congressman. Back to the Elon thing. And I do think I hear you on the kitchen table stuff. They're giving you a lot of opportunity by the fact that Trump's selling the richest man in the world's car on the lawn there. They want to extend the tax cuts for people, even if they're making a billion dollars.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Is there either a policy or just rhetorical contrast there with using Elon as a peg?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
You said this for the budget you voted against. So we're taping this on Wednesday because I'm headed to D.C. So some of the Senate budget negotiations might have changed by the time this airs Thursday. But you wrote, House Republicans' temporary funding bill hurts the economy, veterans, families, and gives Trump and Elon unchecked power to impose dumb tariffs, raising prices for everyone.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I'm a no. Obviously, this passed with only one Democratic vote. This heads to the Senate. Because of the way the Senate works, they're going to need seven Democrats if they want to pass it. What do you say to your colleagues in the Senate as they're looking at this shit sandwich that they sent across Capitol Hill?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
The DC thing is kind of like any time a new president comes in, it's kind of like an invading army comes into the country. I mean the whole city does change. But these guys actually want to kill it. Yeah, they want to kill it. This is Sherman. Yeah. Okay. So – This is Sherman. Part of the reason why the calculus is a little – It's a little tough.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
What do you say to the Democrats and others like, you know, watchers that are that are worried about this and say that the Democrats oppose this and the Senate leads to a government shutdown that allows Elon Musk and Russ vote to continue to run roughshod over the government and the government shutdown is going to cause real pain for people. Maybe the Democrats take some blame.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I wouldn't give the Democrats any blame. But unfortunately, the Bollard podcast doesn't get to decide who's to blame. There are other there are other people out there. So what do you say to people that are worried about that, about both the real pain that a shutdown would cost and also the political pain potentially for Democrats?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I'm with you on that. I don't know, though. I think that there's going to be some weak knees over there in the Senate. We'll see how it goes. It is the Senate.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I wanted to ask you about Democrat struggles with Hispanic voters in particular, but also Asian voters. Your district is a huge majority of Hispanic and Asian voters. I think it's only like 10% white voters. Harris lost 13 points. versus Biden on net in your district. Obviously, she still won overwhelmingly. It's LA. But that's a huge drop.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
It's because if you just put it on the inverse, like the Republicans can hold government shutdowns over Democrats' heads. They haven't really done it to much effect. I was talking to – I think I can betray this one. He didn't tell me he was on the record.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And if you kind of project that out across the country, it explains a lot of why Trump won. And I think that's a big red flag for Democrats. I mean, I hear what you say about being relatable, but are there policy things? You're in the district. What is it that would have caused the Democrats to lose such ground with mostly Hispanic, Asian, and other voters of color?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Not if it means they're paying 20 more bucks at the pump every time they go.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
But he's been pretty public on this I was talking to Brendan Buck who is Paul Ryan's old guy yesterday and he's like look man Our team never got anything out of these government shutdown threats. It was always a loser for us and and even in their case in the Republican case in that in that in those moments where they're trying to you know, threaten Obama or Biden with shutdowns like
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
You're speaking my language on this stuff. I mean, I'm hooting you from the cheap seats on getting rid of red tape, making it easier to build, building more. I'm with you on all that. And I think that makes a big difference.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
There are other folks out there, though, that would say that, sure, the economic stuff has hurt Democrats, but also some of these cultural issues, the Democrats went a little overboard on the left, whether it's immigration, whether it's crime. Whether it's LGBTQ. I mean, I'm gay. I'm with the Democrats on most of these issues. Maybe not all of them. Some of the crime stuff got a little kooky.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
But what do you say to that? That maybe it's less about the economic stuff and more about some of the cultural issues where Democrats maybe got a little out of step with some of the working class voters?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
The fires in your district kind of is adjacent to Glendale up there. I'm just kind of curious how you assess how the recovery is going and whether you think, how do you kind of score out the blame game here as everybody's trying to figure out how this got so out of hand?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
it was kind of a win-win for them, not politically, but like substantively, right? They're like, oh, you shut down the government. Okay, great. We don't like the government anyway, right? And so the Democrats are in the different, like they don't have as much leverage as Republicans do because Democrats don't want Russ Vogue to be able to shut everything down, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Lastly, I'm annoyed you got Luka. Just wondering what the vibes are like for the Lakers fans out there. I'm a Nuggets man. We have beat you multiple playoffs in a row now, so I'm not scared about it, but I'm fucking annoyed. You seeing more jerseys out there? What are the vibes like?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I mean, you kind of are. You're a capitalist. They say the Democrats are socialists. You're a capitalist, man. If we get you a World Series and if money can do it, you'll do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
All right. Well, winning is good. Nuggets we'll see in the playoffs again this year. Nuggets in five. It'll be painful. But unfortunately, Luke will be there for a decade. He'll probably get us once. Thanks so much. Good to meet you, Congressman Jimmy Gomez. Really appreciate it. Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Borg Podcast. See you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
The Borg Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
So this is how I break that down. I'm going to try to answer that question for you. As I see the Senate Democrats' calculus, they basically have three options. They have accelerationism.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
what's that you know the phrase acceleration i mean i can get the racists i mean this is a this would be a noble version of accelerationism i guess but the racist kind of like there's a group of a subset of the of the white nationalists that like want a race war so they're you know because i think the quicker we get to civil war the better yeah the quicker we get to civil war in the country the better so there's accelerationism which is like basically saying it no you you're going to shut down the government anyway you're already shutting the government down
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Let's do it. Go for it. Let's see what the American people think about your governance. And you won't be surprised to hear sympathetic. Not you, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Let's get it on. There is then limp objection, which is option two, which is basically the paddle.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
version of this that's where they are which is basically saying like okay we're going to kind of object to this we'll cut you a deal when we vote for cloture if you let us vote against some other thing it'll be too complicated for anybody to explain we'll all say we voted no because we all will vote no because you can't i guess let's start here you can't vote yes on this fucking thing if you're a democrat
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Like there's no way to just say straight yes. I am a yes on codifying the Doge cuts. I'm a yes on cutting DC by a billion. I'm letting Donald Trump do what he wants and putting my name on the bill. You can't say yes. You can maybe cut a deal where – You get a vote. They get to vote on it, and they get to pass it 53 to 47. So that's the limp objection path.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And then there's just the accommodation path. Just bend over and take it. Yeah, which was basically – and Hickenlooper flipped on this, I've seen. But Hickenlooper presented the accommodation as case – Yesterday, which was basically what you just said, which is like, it's the best of two terrible options. I don't want to shut the government down and give them even more power to fire people.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
There's already enough pain, right? So accommodation, limp objection, and accelerationism.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Tea party. Yeah. I want to make the case for accelerationism from a political standpoint. Just political, not policy. Okay. And I don't think – again, I would love to come here and do – as I do on planes, I listen to the MAGA podcast. That's what I try to – Oh, you do that too? Yeah. So I was listening to Bannon.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I was prepping this podcast. I was like, what would Bannon do? Well, WWBD.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Yeah. And – And the reality is that he would right now be sitting in my shoes with this mic going to the mattresses being like, zero votes, zero quarter for anyone that gives a vote. We must stop anybody that gives a vote. Patriots, sign up with me right now. We have the banner of heaven on our side. Okay. Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Okay. And so there's something – but here's the thing. Again, just politically, there's something to all that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
And here would be my political case and why I kind of fall down, I think, more meekly than that on the side of accelerationism. If there's limp objection, I'm for meek accelerationism, which is like – I don't actually think the Democrats will get blamed. The Democrats will get blamed in D.C. and will be blamed among super nerds.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
But if you are out there a regular American and fucking the stock market is crashing, like there's no real progress on any of the foreign stuff that Trump said that he was going to make. The prices are higher. Right. People are being fired all around you. You can't call Social Security help. You can't go to the national parks. I think that's great.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. We're coming at you from Washington, D.C. So I'm here in the studio between two ferns with managing editor Sam Stein.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Are you going to really blame the – and you're like Donald Trump is the president. I don't know what the cloture is. Like Donald Trump said he'd fix everything. He's a dealmaker. It's all fucking chaos. I think it hurts Trump. I don't disagree with that. I think it hurts Democrats among elite thinkers and fart sniffers on the Excella corridor. But I think it probably hurts Republicans everywhere.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Ego Ed Martin, if you're listening, this is a reference to the movie Speed.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
All right. So I'm a no, but I think it's tough. I think it's tougher than it seems.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I do want to raw dog this thing. And I got to tell you, it's interesting. It's not just one last thing on this because people are so fucking sick of culture talk, I'm sure, listening, but... I've spoken to two House Democrats who are like not Tim, like not like the flamethrowers. Like listeners probably haven't even heard of either of them, honestly.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
We are. It's nice. I like it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Normal middle of the caucus House Democrats who are pretty, you know, just institutionalist type people. And I was put to both of them yesterday. What would you do if you're in the Senate? They're like, fuck it. No. Yeah. And easy for them to say. Fair. But I'm just saying, I think that's telling you, like, if the voters are mad, there's frustration not just among the voters. All right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
It's very good. We're going to start a little wonky. We're going to do some Capitol Hill machinations talk. And so I promise for the listeners out there in real America, outside the Beltway, who don't care about reconciliation and cloture votes... that I have candy for them coming at the end. But we have to do this. Before we get to the budget, we got Congressman Jimmy Gomez up in segment two.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
You've talked me into it. Let's just do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Have you ever wanted to learn more about wine but can't figure out where to start? Or when you do start, it just feels like too much? Our next partner, Naked Wines, has changed the game for learning about wine without having to take a whole class about it. This podcast is sponsored by Naked Wines.
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S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
Naked Wines is a service that directly connects you to the world's finest independent winemakers so you can get award-winning wine delivered straight to your door. Use our code THEBULLWORK for both the code and password at nakedwines.com and get their incredible deal of six bottles for just $39.99. You know, I lived in the Bay for a little while.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
I repelled against winemaking as, you know, my little contrarian high school Republican shows up every once in a while. I'm sure you guys notice that. And, you know, everybody out there was so hoity-toity about all of their various wine cellars that I just cut the other way. And I was like, I'm not going to be a wine man while I'm out here. All right, I'm sorry. I'm going beer. I'm going tequila.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep999: Sam Stein: How Do You Negotiate with Nihilists?
bourbon. But, you know, I feel like that was maybe a mistake. So now, you know, I'm trying to get reacclimated, try out some new wines, figure out what I like, figure out what I don't like. The Naked Wines have sent me different little potpourri of reds. I'm not a Pinot man. Sorry, sideways fans, not a Pinot man. It's something I've discovered.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
It's going to be great. I relish putting the host in the guest seat. I'll bring out the best guest in you, I promise. All right. We have a new edict from the Capitol. The dear leader's mouthpiece was asked about the banishment of the Associated Press from the press room yesterday. I want to take a listen to what she had to say about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Where are you just on, like, your expectations of this versus reality? I mean, you know, we were together on... that bleary late early morning of November 6th and talked for about a minute. If I had told you that night, I was like, Pete Hegsatz will be Secretary of Defense, RFK Jr. will be Secretary of HHS, Kasper tells me FBI. Would you have been like, yeah, that feels right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
He's won and they're just going to go do it? Or has this been a little surprising to you?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
No, they don't. I mean, except Mitch is trying to pretend like he has some.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
This is so smart because he did the blueprint and he thought he was going to be in charge the whole time. Right. It's one of these things where we like, let's break the rules and, you know, let's use maximum power politics and I'm running the Senate and we'll be able to do this to advance my ends. And like, as it turns out, No, he's alone.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I think we all know someone who loves taking photos, but their hundreds of pictures are just wasting away on their phone. Start putting them to good use with a unique, stylish digital picture frame from Aura Frames. This was named the number one digital picture frame by Wirecutter and for good reason. You know, Aura Frames has been sponsoring the show for a while.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
And at the beginning, I was mostly focusing on this as like a gift for your aunt. or a gift for your grandma that wants updates on what's happening with their grandchildren, and it's great for that, and it's something that I've done. But when I went into Sarah Longwell's office before Christmas, and I saw that she had used the AuraFrame for herself,
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
to include pictures of office stuff, of our live bulwark events, of little off-site parties that they've had, of, you know, whatever, candid shots, little phone pics that you take from inside the office. And I was like, that is smart. That is good because it's true. I'm like everybody else. I've got all these pictures on my phone. What are they doing there?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Am I ever going to use the candid photo that somebody sent me of where I was talking to James Carville and Donald Trump is on the TV in the background and we're both waving our hands wildly? I probably won't ever use that. That's just going to disappear into the ether of my phone. But if I had an original picture frame, it could be in the rotation going through on my office desk. So...
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I recommend that you do what Sarah Longwell did and get yourself an Aura digital picture frame right now. You can save on the perfect gift that keeps on giving by visiting auraframes.com. For a limited time, listeners can get $20 off their best-selling Carver mat frame with code BULWARK. That's A-U-R-A frames dot com promo code BULWARK. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Terms and conditions apply. One last news item from this morning is this is from our friends at Axios. Jim VandeHeide gave this one, I think, two or three blaring sirens. President Trump and Elon Musk, arguably the two most unorthodox and influential American leaders of the 21st century, are practicing and fine-tuning a fused theory of governing power, masculine maximalism.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
What do you think about that? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I can tell you the next sentence was about how it was all guys that are in charge and they're just using their maximum power.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
It seems to me like it's kind of like small dick maximalism. And it's like, none of these people are, and who are we talking about? Musk who like lied about his video game prowess and like Trump with his makeup. I just, I don't like, this is all just so like, only in DC could they get away with this, I guess. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I guess that's true. In that sense, it's masculine maximalism.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
You're in a safe space for this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I didn't plan to go here, but you opened Pandora's box, so we're going to do this. I do think that, to me, I just look at this, just silliness from Axios, but this broader question of the masculinity and the traditionalism, like you said, and how the Democrats, I think, could regain some of this by just... standing up to these guys with backbone and with authority.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Actually, let's go. Can we hear another fact? Can we get that other clip really quick?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
There was this thing during the campaign on the left where it was like, the Democrats can redefine what it means to be a man. And Doug Emhoff and Tim Walz can do that by being nicer to people. It feels like a challenging project because it's a project that some people...
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
that will appeal to some people and that other people will mock and roll their eyes at but like i do think that there's a different way to kind of regain whatever being masculine which is standing up to these fuckers and defending people and doing it unapologetically right and not having to feel like you're redefining masculine yeah being masculine by being sweet
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
and i'm trying to i'm here to tell you that being beta is just that's true even though it kind of was with doug i love doug i love doug so just say this but like there was a moment of like you saw this in the discourse where it was like we can model a different way of being a man by like standing up for your like letting your wife take the lead i'm all for people letting their wife take the lead and be tough but like
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
But there was a subtext of it, of men can step back.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Of men can step back. Of men can, you know, men can be the PFLAG sponsor. Like, men can do that. But by making that the overt pitch, I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Or I don't know, maybe the right is like saying that, okay, you can be nice and be a good person, but also be tough and punch. I was talking to one of my former Jeb colleagues.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
That's what I'm saying. But like this toughness part, I guess is what I was saying, which was kind of missed. Right. I don't know. I was talking to one of my former Jeb colleagues and I was like, is there anything we could have done? We were a little drunk. And we were kind of rehabbing in 2015. Very masculine. Yeah, it was very sad. I'm not the remodel of masculinity here with my pearls, Alex.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Sure you are. I'm doing my best. And he suggested to me, he goes, you know, I think the one thing that he could have done is when Trump made fun of his wife, he could have punched him. And I was like, literally? And he was like, literally? Had he punched Trump on the face on the debate stage, I feel like that might have been the thing that could have saved us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
If we could have done one thing differently, maybe he needed to punch him. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
So there's pearls and there's loving your wife and there's also punching mega assholes. Can we do all of those things?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
This is why you're good at this. This is why you're out in the field. I like you in your circus mode, in your Trumpland podcast mode. Yeah, it's exhausting. Is it exhausting?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I feel like this is your element, though. I feel like you're in your element.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
You would have usually found her hosting Alex Wagner tonight on MSNBC with me as a guest occasionally, but through April 30th, she's on special assignment for the limited MSNBC podcast series, Trump Land, with Alex Wagner, reporting on the first 100 days of the second Trump administration. It's Alex Wagner, and we're in Trump Land, I guess. How's that going?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
We're totally aligned on that. I'm wondering, is there something that you've picked up being out there that you feel like you might have missed had you been doing the studio grind? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I guess another difference is they're making their facts real, you know, like the Google machine and Apple have changed the name of the Gulf here as well.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
So I want to do a little confessional really quick on the empathy. Because I'm happy to hear you say that because I feel like this is a shortcoming I have sitting here in my box. There's the bad part of me inside that wants things to be terrible. Because... that's the only way anybody will learn. And that's the only way that I can, some might be the only way that we get through.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I guess not the only way, but you know, there needs to be consequences to like risky choices or else like whatever, or else we're in Trump land forever. And then, um, I listen to your show and like I hear from the actual people that are suffering because it's not really me that's suffering. Like it's easy for me to say like sitting here. So I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I mean, do you have that like tension inside of you or are those just my sins that I'm trying to deal with?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Now you're speaking my language. Okay. You can have empathy and recognize what might be needed. Your episode that's dropping today is about the efforts to eliminate DEI from the federal agencies. The war on woke.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
There's one example of this one that's just, I guess, takes us back to the Russian dark comedy at the start, I guess, which is that some education department employees were placed on leave after taking diversity training. But the end of the gag here is that the diversity training happened during Trump's first term. Yep. So what else did you kind of uncover for that episode?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I'm shocked. I haven't tried to change anything to Trump. I'm annoyed that we went back to Mount McKinley. I want Mount Trump. I want to just go all in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
One of the other episodes you did was talking about the non-buyout buyout, this idea that Elon sends us the fork in the road email. It was yesterday, actually. You have to say by February 12th that you want out. And then he sent an email last night that said the fork in the road is closed, which I think is a mixed metaphor. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I don't exactly know how that works. But according to them, and you have to really say according to them at the beginning of everything at this point, because who the fuck knows. But they said about 77,000 workers accepted the offer. But that's like a pretty standard amount of turnover for a given year in the federal workforce, or is it not? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
So when you were talking to these folks, like some people were doing it because.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
This was such a good point in your piece, though, because I was trying to like settle in with me. Right. Which is like, sure, you can't trust Trump ever. But like in this specific case, the government funding runs out next month. March 14th. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
So like they don't have the money appropriated to give them money for an eight month buyout. So it is a seriously just like, you know, signing a piece of paper. They might as well offer them a car.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
No, it ain't. Let's talk about the pushback to it. You spoke to... Just such a sweet inspector general who was just so sweet and earnest. God love him about caring about, he was talking about how he wanted to, like his job was concerns about efficiency. And he was like, my mission should be aligned with Elon and Donald Trump's mission. And I was just like, poor guy, you just don't.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
You don't see it. It's fake. Anyway, you talked to some of the inspectors general. You're at the protests. Talk about what your sense is from the pushback at this point.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Or Trump land. I got to tell you, I know this is serious now. I know that the media, there's a free speech question here. The folks at FIRE, the good free speech advocates have been defending the AP, which I appreciate. This was just really funny. I don't know. There's something about her being like, it is a fact. It is a fact that I find it seems a little desperate and funny. No, is it not funny?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
So Dave Weigel, who I love, always read Dave Weigel at Semaphore. He has a great newsletter. Americana, I think it's called. He wrote this this morning, and it is that the new resistance to Donald Trump's presidency had a plan. State Attorneys General from Maine to Hawaii would rush to court to stop vast portions of the agenda he spent years promising to deliver.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Weigel writes, there's a weird thing going on where the massive liberal lawyer alliance is winning cases, the White House is denouncing it, and the mood is that wimpy Dems are blowing it. I take his point, and I think you sort of explained this, there's this bifurcated quote-unquote resistance effort.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
There is the legal effort to just literally resist the letter of the rules, I won't even say laws, the letter of the actions that have been put in place extra-legally in a lot of cases by Elon and his cronies. But then there's the political resistance, which is this is bad, like convincing people that this is bad and harmful and that it should be rejected.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Like that is the part that feels limp to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
This is why, to me, it's like both parts of the resistance need to work for it to be effective. We have Preet on tomorrow, so we'll get deeper into the legal side of this. But to me, if only the legal side is successful, that actually could be a long-term loss. It could be short-term gain for people whose jobs are protected, and that's great.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
And everybody should fight for their own interests, and I support that. But let's say that the courts end up blocking whatever. 60% of what Musk's tried to do. Right. And they get 40% through and they're able to then say like, Oh, these woke judges stopped us from doing more.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
And because we only did 40%, like there's actually not that much backlash because people don't, don't really experience, you know, the totality of what their agenda was. Um, It could end up being kind of a win-win for them a little bit, right? If they're like, okay, well, the court's blocked like the worst part of our ideas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
And so we get to do some of this other stuff and then kind of then make the courts the bad guys and use that as a rationale for further political victories and further illiberal actions.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I'm going to say this on blue in the face. Like there might have been some cringe. We might roll our eyes at the pink pussy cats or whatever now, but like the resistance worked the first time. I mean, he didn't repeal Obamacare. He got crushed in the midterms. He lost in 2020. Like I didn't work in the sense of it didn't create a lasting coalition that prevented him from getting power again.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
And that is terrible. And people, they do. Democrats should reassess their strategies and what to do moving forward. But just like the question of should we protest? Should we do everything possible to try to stop him? Should we scream from the rooftops? There is like this conventional wisdom that is like congealing that like that isn't useful, like whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
And it's like, I don't think that's true.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
And you don't know what will spark things. Who would have thought that some CNBC guy's rant would have turned into the Tea Party? You know what I mean? You don't know what ends up sparking something that has mass movement. Okay, one last episode. It was a couple weeks ago, but it was so, I don't know. I was about to say powerful, but I don't know, depressing maybe would be a better word.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I wanted to play a clip from one of the conversations you had outside of the prison after Trump pardoned the January 6th.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
It is absurd. I was thinking about this yesterday. I was like, if I got into a time machine, flew back to 2015, and went to a gaggle of reporters, or even better, a gaggle of conservative media reporters, went on Fox.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Dude is working. I was hoping he was just going to golf. Dude is working. He did that press conference with the guy that was in jail in Russia. Did the prisoner swap?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
It was like 11 o'clock at night. You know, he's out there doing it. And guys like having four press conferences a day, he's calling these people. He's working. That's bad news.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
If I had gone on Fox in 2015, and I was like, 10 years from now, Trump will be president still, and he will demand that we call the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America, and everyone will go along with it. I would have been put in a sane asylum. People would be like, you have such Trump derangement syndrome that you need to be forcibly removed from society.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Scrape yourself off the floor. That's going to be a good place for us to leave it. Alex, thanks for doing this. Sorry.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
No, I'm sorry. That's good. I was like, I was going to, I was like, oh man, I'm leaving people with the guy whose kid that speared a cop is getting out of jail and he's thrilled about it. That's kind of a dark place to leave the episode, but scrape yourself off the floor is a good place to leave it. So we'll do it with that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
You've got what? How many more days on the road do you got? Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Okay. At the end of April. We got Jazz Fest down here the first weekend of May if you want to come down, hang out, and have that purple drink with me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
That sounds good. If we don't do that, we'll have you back on for a 100-day recap.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Thanks so much to Alex Wagner. Everybody else will be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Borg Podcast. See you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
They are. Okay, we've got some other news items we've got to take through. Tesla. Some great news for Tesla. The Trump administration is set to purchase $400 million worth of armored Tesla vehicles, according to a new State Department document detailing procurement for fiscal year 2025.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
After reports circulated Wednesday of, got to shout out DropSite News for being first to the punch on this, the State Department changed the document and And now it says the federal contract is for $400 billion worth of armored electric vehicles. Tesla's name has been removed. So I have a couple of questions.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I have a serious question for you about the corruption that is taking over our government. But I also, as... the non-woke former Republican here, I've got to say, why are we even doing French electric vehicles at all? What is the deal with this? What if our armored vehicles are in a place where there are no charging stations? Shouldn't we have Ford F-350s?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Shouldn't we have real American gas-guzzling armored vehicles? Not this hippie shit? So anyway, two-part question.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Do you have any pushback on the title? Just for mental health purposes? Or you just are accepting?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
unelected you know billionaire storming the the federal government people are not cool with that and i think you should read a lot into the fact that they change the wording on that that statement oh yeah i do too it means they're conscious of it for sure it was interesting i saw there's this joe rogan clip where he says something like essentially to the effect of uh you know elon's too rich to grift yeah let's listen to joe real quick
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Is that how this works? That very rich people, like, decide that they don't want to be richer?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I do. Well, this kind of goes to the Bannon thing, right? There are a number of issues that Musk presents on the right for them, too. This is not a natural alliance. We saw it with the H-1B. I'm joking, but really... This is not a movement that is, like, really going to be thrilled about the advance of electric vehicles.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Well, there'd have to be a black trans driver. If there was a black trans female driver of the armored electric vehicle, then we'd really be woke.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
It doesn't make sense. I really do think that there'd be vulnerabilities. I don't think the Rogan position of, oh, he's uncorruptible. He's too rich to be corruptible. I think that that is going to work for the people in my replies on Twitter with the blue checks who may or may not be from Romania, who are telling me about how great Elon is and posting memes of crying.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
you know, liberals, you know, via the Grok AI. I think like those people will buy that. But I just think like, as this goes along, I do think that regular folks didn't sign up for 400 million in Tesla armored vehicles.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Yeah, I think he was the captain of the baseball team. Trump doesn't really like to be hit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
That's, I guess, what I'm saying. Why can't I insult baseball? I mean, it's just.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I know. I know. The Mets, you know, and then the kids. I mean, it's great. There's nothing. You can be a great baseball player. It's a little different than being the football player that's getting tackled.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I like to, that makes me kind of want to pull the thread a little bit more.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
We have some more news. We've got the big one coming today. Three great weeks, all caps, perhaps the best ever. But today is the big one. Reciprocal tariffs make America great again. Trump's got a news conference that will be complete by the time this posts. Where are you on this? We have a little intro to Bulwark Disagreement. On tariffs? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Well, not about the value of tariffs, about the Trump. Some people think that it's going to be all the Canadian thing all the way down, right? Like it's all fake. It's all WWE. He's not going to do it. I think that he actually really loves tariffs, and I think that he's going to do it. I think that we're going to have tariffs. I don't know if they'll be the ones today.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I don't know if it'll be in a month, but like eventually he's like a little baby throwing a tantrum and he thinks it's a big, beautiful word. And I don't think that he's not going to do it. I don't know. Where do you, what do you like?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We're still in the first month of the Trump second presidency, apparently, and I'm with somebody that's going to try to help us figure it out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Yeah, it's very little about the dude, actually. We're going to do a bunch on the pod. I was binging it yesterday. Love that. We have a couple news items we have to get to first, though, if you don't mind.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Yeah, the consequence he would care about, I guess, is the market crashing. But he has, to your point, this is, I hate handing it to him and using the word genius, but like he's even submitted the markets on this, right? Like he puts out this thing this morning, I've probably come on, that says these are going to be the big one, the tariffs.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
And, you know, the market's only been open for about an hour right now, but they're up. People don't believe, they don't believe him. And so there was the pre-market, not crash, but drop before the big Canadian-Mexican tariff announcements. Then he backed off, but he kept the Chinese ones and he kept the steel and aluminum ones. You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Eventually, you would think that reality would have to intervene, but maybe not.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Yeah. So far. All right. Speaking of reality not raising her hand, the other news item of today, RFK, is going to be confirmed as Secretary of Health and Human Services. The most interesting thing about all this to me is less that the... The Republicans caved because I always knew the Republicans would cave. I was hopeful is even the wrong word.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
We have a new... I like turning the tables. I love it. I relish.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
I felt like there was an outside chance that Bill Cassidy would show some backbone because he's a doctor and because he'd already impeached Trump. I was going to bet against it, but I thought that there was a chance. I was, you know, I was in a dumb and dumber situation. I was like, you know, you're saying there's a chance for Bill Cassidy. But overall, I knew he'd get confirmed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
The interesting thing is, has that really been a big fight from pharma? There was a political article about this yesterday. Everybody just was kind of like, okay, let's see what happens. Bring whooping cough back and take our chances.
The Bulwark Podcast
Alex Wagner: The Poster Child for Corruption and Grift
Eggs and baseball. We finally found our areas of disagreement. My family does eggs. It's just okay for
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
We do have some biochemist listeners. And I have one person in mind. I'm waiting for their comment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Yeah, I never thought about it like this, but this kind of seems obviously true to me. I think about it from the social level of just TikTok or Instagram, particularly if you're a young person and you're scrolling through and it's like you're hearing about other people's drama. You're seeing people that are very pretty, that are just making you maybe self-conscious or anxious, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But you're spending time. And sometimes you're laughing, and there's some positive, right? But you finish the scroll. You're like, oh, I'm sick of this. After you spend 20 minutes or 40 or however many you spent just moving your thumb. And then that ends. I don't feel like you need a biochemist to be like, yeah, it makes sense. They're like, what do I need now? Time away from people. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Time away from people, not time with people. But they didn't actually get anything out of it. I don't know. Sometimes I feel like I'm unempathetic. I'm such an extrovert and I love being and like this is so obviously true for me. I do. I'm open to feedback that that my priors do not match other people's life experience.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But the one thing I want to challenge you on that I just noticed when I was reading the article is there's a lot of conversation about teens and teen isolation. And I feel like it's weird, like in your world and kind of the social cultural analysis world, there are people that are like teens are overscheduled. Teens have too much stuff that they're doing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Like, you know, the high achieving teens parents are obsessed with getting them into Ivy League schools. And so they're doing too many extracurriculars and they're doing too much homework and they don't have enough time to be teens or kids. I don't understand how that social problem matches with the social problem of young people are spending too much time alone. Do you have any thoughts on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Yeah, you made a very good distinguishing point there. I took a clarifying point on my question about really talking about middle and upper income teen kids. You're talking about the
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
helicopter parenting issue right like the because you mentioned another issue in your article is that talking to low-income teens and looking to parents of low-income teens the studies are showing that like they see a problem of like not they don't have anywhere to go to socialize right that like that a lot of the rec centers and the stuff that you know propped up in the middle of the 20th century like some of that stuff's still there but it's hollowed out and there just aren't as many options
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
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The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
One of the things that they are thinking about and they're recommending to me and others is just ensuring that you got your house in order when it comes to what is happening online. And that is a smart idea for anybody, even if you're not in Kash Patel's book. There are data breaches happening all the time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
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The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
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The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com slash bulwark code bulwark. That takes us nicely into the politics. I do say, having had this conversation, I feel like we were remiss to not have my colleague JVL here as a just anti-social crank lover of his private time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
He does have a lot of kids, so maybe that solves the solitude problem. But I'm going to be sending him a homework assignment for the newsletter to give a to give the contrary, the non-extrovert view and all this. The practicing of politics alone, and some of this I do think is related to what we've seen from younger men in their engagement in politics online. You write about how
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
What this leads to, there's an obvious element, which is demonizing and alienating other people because you don't encounter them. So you don't understand the nuances of their views as much. It also maybe for a different class of people leads people to be out of touch with people of differing views because they don't encounter them. And you also say it kind of leads to a nihilism.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
So talk about how you're connecting the increased solitude to our political moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
I don't live in Denver.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Yeah, I looked at that Putnam book, Blowing Alone, and Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death. You go back and look at the years, and it's like, wait, Postman wrote Amusing Ourselves to Death in 1985? When there were only three networked news channels? Fox News didn't exist. Yeah, right. I mean, barely. Was Rush even on in 85? Just the whole thing is crazy. No Howard Stern yet, or very proto.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
I agree with that admonishment to some progressives. But like on the Trump part, and this type of figure could emerge on the left, who knows? The solitude obviously lends people to be more likely to be susceptible to demagogues, right? And to people that lie about and demean your people. you know, the people of the opposite tribe, right? I mean, people are always like humans are wired like this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
We are, we are tribal beings. So we are susceptible to this regardless, but you are particularly susceptible to something that you're already biologically susceptible to. If you are not doing anything to offset it in the real world, right? If you're one of these lonely men that you're talking about in particular, younger men, um, And you're not actually you're not going on dates, really.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
You're not communicating with people in the real world. Then when you have a figure like Donald Trump that comes up and says, well, your problem is all these whatever progressive elites in Los Angeles. So your problem is like the Haitians in Springfield. The problem is these fucking people that annoy you on the Internet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Like you're much more open to all of their critiques, no matter what their validity is, it seems.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Yeah, she had a great book.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But first, he's a staff writer at The Atlantic, author of the Work in Progress newsletter, host to one of my favorite pods, Plain English. You can go subscribe to that now. And he's got an upcoming book with Ezra Klein called Abundance. You can pre-order now. Maybe we'll have a three-way. That was unintentional when that book comes out, but you never know. It's Derek Thompson.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And then this, you know, in 2000, just like the dramatic change. You didn't feel it in 2000, I guess, right? Right. I don't know. At least I was what, in high school in 2000. And I did not like there wasn't this sense that this was a big problem. You know, I think living day to day lives for most people, but the trajectory was happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
If you're not involved in your community, then you don't know how this stuff gets hashed out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Uplifting stuff. We've got AI coming too, which is great. I don't have time to get to that right now. So people can imagine what they think the impact of AI is going to be on this solitude, the increasing trend towards solitude. I just want to do a quick rapid fire on a couple of your other articles, because there's some good stuff there. And this isn't really...
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Rapid isn't really right up your alley, Derek, but I'm trying to challenge you a little bit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
You wrote about the most important breakthroughs of 2024. You write this every year. It's one of my favorite articles. What was the most important breakthrough to you of 2024, scientific or otherwise?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And, you know, the observation not to undermine the value of your article, but it feels almost like mundane now. Like the interesting thing about your article is just like it's maybe even more dramatic than we realize, like living through it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
You wrote another article called How Trump Won Everywhere. This might be harder to be brisk with, but we'll try to be as brisk as we can. Michael Potoser is insightful guy that writes about, you know, trends, political trends and data. And he wrote something that I uncharacteristically disagreed with recently was that like his, you know, he thought that it was,
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
a lack of turnout among democratic groups that was the core reason why, why Harris lost. I mean, maybe I can have a longer conversation with him. I don't mean to like, you know, have him catch a stray on the pod here, but I, I more agree with a different view, which was yours, which was about how Trump won everywhere.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And it was, you know, these, this small movement towards him as a result of some of the post COVID environment. So why don't you try to sum up your case?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Yeah. And I'm going to talk more with Liz here up next about all of the factors for these fires in L.A. And there are many. So people just forgive us here. We're obviously going to gloss over some of this. But I do think that you can't look at what has happened in L.A.,
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
and not see it as another example where you have these kind of high-tax, big government places that felt unprepared for the challenges that they faced. Now, this is just this massive challenge, and there's a bunch of misinformation out there about the fire hydrants ran out of water. It's like, actually, there wasn't enough water in the fire hydrants for all these different fires at the same time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But that said, the mismanagement and the management failures are hard not to observe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And I'm not asking you to.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
All right, man. Yeah, that is so complex. I appreciate your thoughtfulness on it. It sounds like we'll be having you back again soon. You got a new book coming out up next, much more on the fires and what's happening in California with Liz Watt. Stick around. All right, guys. It's a new year. And this happens to me every new year where I'm like, I'm going to cook more. I'm starting to cook more.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Less takeout. We're coming up with a plan. We're coming up with an agenda. I do really good in January. I do pretty good in February. It starts to go downhill in March. But I'm committed to it this year. We're going to be doing cooking at home. And especially on these busy weekday nights when you got the kids basketball practice or music practice or I got a blab on MSNBC.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
It's important to get dinner done in a way that is super easy. And that's why I've turned to HelloFresh. HelloFresh's new ready-made meals go from the fridge to your fork in just three minutes. It's the same high-quality ingredients and restaurant-worthy flavor that you expect with just none of the work. Save valuable time with fewer trips to the grocery store thanks to HelloFresh Market.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
There's over 100 add-on items that you can add to your weekly box like quick breakfast, packable snacks, beverages, and more. Luckily, my little baby girl is a pretty adventurous eater. So that's good. We've got some other folks, some other podcast co-hosts over the next level. JVL, it's a little tougher situation in that home. They got children with exacting standards on the meals.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But across all of us, Sarah and JVL and me, what we found is there are options at HelloFresh that work for our kids, make it easy for us to cook and do meal prep and also do prep for these podcasts. Listen to Derek Thompson's article on my, my earphones that I can cook at the same time and ask engaging questions like I did today.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
It all works out if you need to multitask, if you've got kids that are looking for a good meal, if you turn to HelloFresh. You can get up to 10 free meals and a free high-protein item for life at HelloFresh.com slash TheBullwork10FM. One item per box with active subscription. Free meals applied as discount on the first box. New subscribers only. It varies by plan.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
That's up to 10 free HelloFresh meals. Just go to HelloFresh.com slash TheBullwork10FM. All right, we are back with Liz Weil, features writer at New York Magazine. She previously covered climate in California for ProPublica and was a writer at large for the New York Times Magazine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
She won an Emmy in 2023 for working on a documentary, Unlivable Oasis, about a Southern California community of farm workers living in sun-baked trailers. Boy. Yeah. It's been a tough couple days. I was reading your old article and I was like, I really want to get this person on the podcast. We've never met before, so I appreciate you doing it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
One of those articles you wrote that jumped off of me, I just want to start there. It was kind of like a throwaway line in one of the articles you wrote. Where we are now, January... the fresh and less fire alarming time of the year should be the moment for us to relax. You don't have to look at that in a January article, I think in 2022. And here we are. That's a pretty ominous sign.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
So I'm wondering what your biggest picture thoughts are watching everything going on in LA.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Your first article, the one that prompted me to reach out, was titled Megafires, Why Won't Anyone Listen? It was written in 2020, but it references an interview with a guy going back to 2005. A lot of that is about... Much of the more, I guess, urban, rural part of California where the forests meet the communities, if you will. The L.A. situation is a little bit distinct in one sense.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
You know, I pulled out there's this Didion in California. In Sludging to Bethlehem, she writes, It's hard for people who have not lived in L.A. to realize how radically the Santa Ana winds figure in the local imagination. The city burning is Los Angeles' deepest image of itself.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
The violence and unpredictability of the Santa Ana affect the entire quality of life in L.A., accentuate its impermanence, its unreliability. The wind shows us how close to the edge we are. I was curious for you, before we kind of get deep on forest management, How much of this you see as a part of the broader California story or something unique to Los Angeles and the Santa Ana?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
In that 2020 ProPublica piece, you interviewed a guy named Tim Inglesby.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And he had started a group, Firefighters United for Safety, Ethics, and Ecology, back in 2005. And you read that he had been lobbying Congress trying to educate anybody who will listen about misguided fire policy that is leading to the megafires we're seeing today. And so, when you wrote that in that context of 2020, obviously this right now, everything gets... gets so political so quick, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And everybody's like, well, it's just the climate or, you know, you have Trump, it's like, it's just the smelt fish and the water coming down from the north. And it's like, but with regards to what's happening in California, there was a very specific thing that you were writing about that people have been warning about for a long time. Talk about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
So here's the thing, though. If you say it was the one thing that the bipartisan, everybody can agree on, we're doing this wrong, but then it doesn't happen. With a few exceptions. I think it was in the Times article that in 2021, California was starting to do this. There was a managed fire that was created to clear out some of the brush, but then it got out of control.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
and there was damage, and then they'd stop doing it for the rest of the year, right? Because there's blowback from the community. In the prehistoric California, 4.4 million acres burned each year. Between 82 and 98, California land managers burned about 30,000 acres a year. Between 99 and 2017, it dropped to 13,000 acres. If people on both sides agree with it, why isn't it happening?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Another thing that jumped out at me from your stories was California only manages like 3% of these lands. Like about half of it is a federal land management problem. If, you know, Inglesby and such have been advocating about this since 05. You know, we've had presidents and Department of Interiors of both parties, you know, going back and forth over this. Like what...
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Do you have any sense for where is the failure point at federal, California, both? What's your sense for that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Because it's January... some of the resources they put into this are seasonal, right? And so like they didn't have the people, the equipment, you know, ready that they might have had it been, you know, September.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Just the extent of it, just the fact that I anecdotally know two people whose houses have burned down, like just sort of shows like the extent of this. And it's just so widespread. And yet you have to talk about how this is like this challenge is also like a challenge of choice. of all of us. Look, I live in New Orleans, so I'm making a similar choice, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Like people that are choosing to live in high-risk areas and that we're not kind of living in reality. You did this good interview with somebody who was talking about just like how, you know, our brains are wired to be like, oh, everything is going to be fine or it's the apocalypse, right? And there's not this in-between of
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
of understanding managed risks and making choices that are smart and making growth choices that are smart anyway you've done a lot of reporting on this in california like what maybe this might be a moment for that to change i don't know
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
I wrote this note down because that 30% in the last 20 years feels like a lot. But when Putnam wrote his book, it had declined 45% already from the 70s to 2000s. So it declined an additional 32% on top of that. It's not even close to Mad Men era as far as hosting people over for dinner parties.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And you love people there, whatever you're like, you know, the house is on cinder blocks, you know, we do different things with the windows, you know?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
What about the water side of this? A lot of the Republicans have really glommed on to this particular that there was water coming from the northern part of California and it was slowed because of the fish or certain environmental concerns. How do you see the water management question in California intersecting with the firefighting question?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Coming back to our headline, why won't anyone listen? If this is a moment to get people to listen, obviously the managed care of the forests and the density of the forests, which are unnatural based on California's historic geology. And are there other things that the experts that you spoke to are saying, like, it's just insane that we're not doing this or it's insane that we're doing this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
It absolutely needs to be part of the conversation. We have deep concerns about that. I do think we've just made a choice that at least in this country, we're not going to care about that for the next four years. And so that's why some of these other like management issues are so important, right? It's like, yes, we should do things to address climate.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Also, too, this is inevitably getting worse and we can't like put our heads in the sand about that, you know?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
You wrote a beautiful article called This Is Not the California I Married just about your relationship to the state and these fires in New York Times Magazine. We'll put it in the show notes. It resonated with me on a deep level as somebody who's made a marriage of choice to a city with a different ecological environmental challenge. If you don't mind... You also wrote a profile of Sam Altman.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Can I just pick your brain on that really quick before we leave? There's this big drama, people have missed it right now about Sam Altman who runs OpenAI and is probably the leading AI entrepreneur in the world right now for folks who aren't familiar with that. And his sister has gone through a lot of
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
trauma a lot of emotional issues a lot of personal issues and now there's a big lawsuit where she is firing some pretty serious allegations against her brother but you had written a profile on sam and interviewed annie for it which is like pretty interesting given the moments i'm just i kind of just wanted to put a quarter in the machine and hear what you had to say about that that whole story
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
How are you doing, brother? Tim, what a generous open. Thank you so much. It's great to be here. Brother, I don't blow smoke, and so it's a generous intro because it's true. It's a great pod, but we've got a lot to get to. You have a cover story that we're here to talk about. The Atlantic Magazine about solitude.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
The wild part of the story that I read was like, I mean, she was hungry. I mean, she didn't have enough money for rent and for groceries.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And Sam Altman is one of the richest people in the world. Depending on the success of OpenAI, I might be the richest man in the world, you know, in the next decade. That's insane. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Like, bro, I'm living in my car. What are you talking about?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Look, I understand family dynamics are complicated. Sometimes you don't want to enable somebody that's, you know, and try to encourage them to make good decisions or whatever. But like, if you're one of the richest people in the world and your sister can't afford groceries, you can't figure out a system for ensuring that they have groceries. Yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
So what is it to be... Certainly raises some questions about how he's going to wield that power.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
sam altman and the vulnerable by looking at how he's handled this relationship with his sister it was quite an interesting piece i encourage people to read it i was reading it last night later because you know i was looking at the other articles you've written and i was like huh i should read this one it's like you know midnight and i'm scrolling through it i was like what what
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
no i hadn't read it when it came out so i encourage you to go check her same altman profile also mega fires why won't anyone listen this is not the california i married it is just it's a tragedy out there it is awful and my heart goes out to anybody who is involved with it or his family's lost a home and um we'll uh in the coming days we'll be including in the show notes uh some kind of vetted places where you can support victims so i appreciate that appreciate you liz while for taking the time here to come on the pod and um everybody else we'll see you back here tomorrow peace
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And so I want to spend a bunch of time on that and then a few other things you've been writing about lately. I had this exclamation point in my notes as I was reading it. You wrote, study show Americans spent even more time alone in 2023 than they did in 2021.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Yeah. So, let's talk about some of the costs of this. Because you do write like there's some difference between solitude and loneliness. You know, some people really enjoy solitude. And this is maybe disaggregated somewhat from another trend that people have been watching, the epidemic of loneliness. What exactly are you positing are some of the problems?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Let's actually just save the political part of this for the very end because, you know, we can dedicate a bunch of time to that. But just the social problems.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But you're a public in a hotel bar. What about a glass of wine alone in your hotel room?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
when we didn't even have the vaccine all of 2021, and we were forcibly at home in 2021, many of us for at least a few months, that is a pretty alarming stat in an article that is filled with alarming stats. So talk to us just about the biggest picture trajectory and what you are reporting on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We got a doubleheader today. The news out of Los Angeles is just so horrifying. We've added Liz Weil, who's been reporting on California fires for years, to segment two. So stick around for that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
I'm going to obsess over that study for a while because that's a great factoid about the train. I'm an extrovert, and even I'm like, I wouldn't want to talk to a stranger on the train. But I can see why the result would come out like that. I think there's an element of this that's even a little worse than what you're saying. Also, is that people think that they'll be happier being alone.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But also with social media, particularly for a certain generation, like our age and younger in particular, People are getting what they think is social interaction without having real deep social interaction. And so you gave an example in the article about a trend on TikTok of people doing videos about how relieved they are when a friend cancels plans and how much engagement they get.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
I'm going to do a quick preamble myself because I don't want to be offensive because there could be plenty of... reasons for this. But you know, one of the influencers that I follow is a person who has, you know, 50,000 followers or something on Instagram and like gets a ton of engagement online. And just this weekend, like right before I read your article, they posted from their wedding,
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And it was like, they don't have any friends, actually. It was like a small group. Now, that could have been a lot of things. I go to, you know, it could have been money. It could have been. But it was like, no, the wedding had a photographer. It had a drone. It had like a lot of pictures of the couple, but like not a lot of reveling. And I just use that not to pick on that person or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But like, is it like the all these things like we see all this, right? There are plenty of anecdotes of this, right? Of people that like, it seems online like they're getting sociability, but they don't actually socialize in the real world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
The ASPR people?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
You were working on all this stuff closely, right? I think the other misconception, right, is like that all these people are upper middle class nerds that live in D.C., right? And when you're having like a huge cuts at the V.A., huge cuts at some of these other places, right? Like I was like one of my Uber drivers was driving me. I'm going to do a Tom Friedman was driving me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
And he was like he used to do background checks. The people that do the background checks for the government are everywhere, right? Like it's just like random jobs you don't think about, right? So like these are hitting all of these and obviously it's going to hit Maryland, Virginia disproportionately, but it's hitting all of these other communities too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
And I think that those are other like people to elevate, I think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Do you have any tactical thoughts? I mean, this is, you know, you're back now. You're back in politics role, not in policy role.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
You do both. You're right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
I'm sorry. But let's be real. You're the head of the think tank. There are thinkers at the tank that are doing the policy stuff. You got to do the politics. You've mentioned a couple of times. We're talking specifically about it's a broad group, but it's like one group. It's mostly non-college voters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
of all races more men than women but but some women people that don't consume the bulwark or new york times or cnn for that matter so sad i know it is sad i mean we i guess probably a better chance of consuming us than cnn or the new york times but you know but i don't think they consume i'm not
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
what's up teenage tandem i always i tell my husband's always like you have two core fan bases nerdy 19 to 24 year old boys and like 60 year old plus women those are the people that stop me the most i tell him you described him as a nerd he'll be like i don't want to be associated with you ever again okay sorry i don't i don't know him i don't know maybe he's very maybe he's just a very cool kid that also likes the bulwark also possible
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Yeah. Share my rants if you want, but that's not really going to do you any good. Yeah. Share what is happening to people. I totally agree.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Is that the person that's to blame for our $32 trillion debt? Like, I don't I don't think so. I hear you all that, but here's my, here's, here's me. My one push. I go to them. Politicians. Neera is pissed. You know how I know Neera is pissed because I follow you on social media and I can see your rage and you got denied a cabinet spot because of your rage. And it was righteous fucking rage.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
And I will go to battle for you. And the number of people that are in that are democratic politicians that have near a level rage. I feel like I can count on one hand, maybe two hands. Why? Why?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
I guess while we're on rage, I have two other personal questions for you. I want you to rank who you're the most angry at. Once you like when your blood really starts to boil, like when you think about a person or a group of people who is making your blood boil the most. I'd like to hear a top three, but I'll take one if you only have one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Roger Wicker, all the random all the random Republicans.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
But when you talk about that group of Republicans, who are you envisioning in your mind's eye?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Yeah, it was. It was interesting. They were on some special Twitter where they're only getting what you were saying and not what Donald Trump was saying.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
It's different for all of us. It's Dave McCormick for me. Everybody has their own triggering person. Tom Tillis is coming up close behind.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Are the Genocide Joe people in your top three, or do they fall a little lower?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Trump. Trump. Sometimes. That'd be an interesting idea. Maybe protest Trump. I mean, he's trying to purchase Gaza. Okay. I joked earlier about whether you were worried about your legal status here since you've been banned by Russia. But like, seriously, now you're the head of a, you're a target.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
And a lot of people out there are worried about, you know, Ed Martin and Pam Bondi and the lawless kind of actions that we're seeing. How worried are you about this administration coming after political foes?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Yeah, they had you favorited. And you've been sending some good ones. All right. My other backwards looking thing. You're the first Biden administration official I've had on since January. And I'm just wondering.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
I knew that'd be your answer. That's why I asked that. All right. I've got Fetterman up next. Do you have any questions for him? Center for American Progress. I have any concerns. Any things you'd like for me to raise?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Okay. Thank you for the trust. And thank you to the fucking awesome son that you've raised, who is like, obviously at keg parties and like hanging out and dating people and very popular.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
I'm sure you're very popular, very smart, very engaged son. Congrats on that. Neera, I appreciate you. Let's do this, I don't know, you know, every six weeks or so. Let's do a check-in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
I appreciate it very much. Up next, Jon Fetterman. All right, we are back with the senior Democratic senator from Pennsylvania. It's John Fetterman. I've done a wardrobe change, you know, in your spirit. I am like your number one apologist about wearing the hoodie on the floor. There's no need to wear a suit for these people. All right, so you just keep doing you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
How you're feeling about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Well, I appreciate it. I wanted to have you on. You really spoke out this week on defense of trans athletes. And I wanted to start there, and then we'll get into some Trump stuff. But you wrote this. The small handful of trans athletes in Pennsylvania are in a political maelstrom. They deserve an ally, and I am one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Sorry. But like, I don't know, like you're looking back now. I just, I'm wondering how the feelings are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Empty show votes or cruelty on social media aren't part of a thoughtful, dignified solution. What made you jump out so aggressively on that? And what do you think a more thoughtful solution would be?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Well, I appreciate that. Maybe I should have got married in Braddock because it was like not till five years later that I got my gay marriage. You know, it is just one more thing on the nuance of this. It's just worth saying, Martina Navratilova, not a liberal. I saw her tweeting at you on, you know, saying that, I don't know, it's different for teen girls.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
And Gavin Newsom, big progressive, said that he is breaking with Democrats on youth sports. So I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
To me, the clearer one is the trans military thing. That's the one that, like you, I see the nuance of the youth sports issue.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
I think the military one might become popular framed the right way. The idea that a draft-dodging guy wearing makeup is going to ban people who volunteered to serve based on their gender identity, it's fucking sick. It's gross to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
What did you make of the Zelensky meeting on Friday and the way that the president's been treating our ally Ukraine, cutting off intelligence? And now, I guess, a report this morning potentially getting rid of legal status for Ukrainian people that stuck asylum.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
I mean, we're not. Come on. We're not moving towards peace. What evidence is there that Putin wants peace? And Trump has not asked Putin for anything. What does Trump ask Putin for as part of peace?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Talking about not jumping online and being alarmed, you wrote after Trump's, whatever that was, not State of the Union speech, the address to Congress, that your colleagues participated in a sad cavalcade of self-owns and unhinged petulance, said we are becoming the metaphorical car alarms that nobody pays attention to. I don't know, though. Aren't we in car alarm territory?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Isn't it time for alarm?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
No, I didn't think it was smart. I agreed with you on that. But I guess I'd just say this. Trump, if I look at your phrase, unhinged petulance. I can't think of a phrase that better describes Donald Trump than unhinged petulance. All he did was call Joe Biden Dementia Joe. He yelled and he screamed and he posted and he bleeded. He did embarrassing things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
And in the end, he convinced a lot of people. I don't know. Like, isn't politics part of politics telling people about all the terrible things that you're the opposing party is doing? I didn't really think that what happened at the State of the Union was particularly good, but I think that Democrats should be louder, not quieter. What do you think about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Yeah, I agree when it comes to the behavior in the room. I'm talking a little broader than that. I guess my point is, can't you stand and cheer for the 13-year-old with the brain cancer and then also the next day go out and say, Donald Trump and Elon Musk are acting illegally. They're firing vets at the VA. Donald Trump is abandoning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
I defined your strategy the other day to somebody and you can tell me if this is wrong and maybe this isn't a strategy. Maybe you're just being you as you're basically voting with the Democrats on most everything. A couple of things. No, but like most everything you're voting with the Democrats, but you're spending a lot of time talking about how they're annoying.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
People were saying that you were going to vote for the cabinet appointees. And like, you know, again, on certain issues on immigration, on Israel, there have been policy differences from some in your party. But a lot of the times you've been you're still I mean, you endorse Bernie. Like you're still a pretty liberal person on most issues. Right. And you're just it's just your rhetoric.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
you said you think the left or the progressives or whatever left you like what do you think changed right i mean because look into it's funny in 2015 you were endorsing bernie in 2016 i was for jeb you know so like here we are so something's changed and and people kind of wonder whether you've changed but i guess you're saying that you don't think you've changed you think that the progressives has changed or have you changed
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Messenger's challenges or messaging challenges? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Going forward, one thing I wanted to ask you is, I was listening to some focus groups yesterday, and there were some guys that, I don't know, kind of sounded like you. They're these kind of voters that they really don't like big pharma. They like Bernie, but they also really appeal to RFK. RFK appeals to them because they think that big pharma, these big corporations are out to get them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
These used to be Democratic voters. There are examples of these young men that now have kind of lost trust in institutions that are now becoming MAGA voters. And I'm wondering how you think Democrats could get them back.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
What were your messaging challenges, do you think?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
So what would be your strategy to get them to vote for you? Forget the Democratic Party. What kind of messages do you think you're going to focus on that you think might resonate with them?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
What about the Bernie messaging since the election? Really just focusing on billionaires, focusing on these big corporations, focusing on big pharma and how, you know, Democrats need to be the party of reform and going after, you know, the wealth gap. What do you think about that? Does that appeal to you at all?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
And afterwards he's like, that guy is better than I thought or whatever. So I don't know. He's probably more likely to answer your call than mine, saying that he doesn't like traders. But I'm wondering if you were to call him back up, is there a specific thing they've been doing these first two months that you are most upset about that you would like them to change course on?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
We have a lot of problems. We're going to get into the problems. We're going to spend most of the time on the problems. I first have two backward-looking things for people. Number one, for newbies, for new listeners who haven't heard this before, my full origin story. I just want to remind people that Neera being denied a cabinet position for mean tweets was the beginning of my radicalization.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Not politically, but like an actual substantive policy that you could try to persuade him on? What would it be?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
So when you did talk to him, what did you talk to him about when you guys had lunch? What did you guys talk about?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
I mean, like the border, like his hair, money, crypto. I mean, who knows?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Well, I appreciate you coming on the podcast. And obviously, I don't think that your wish that the chaos will tamp down is going to happen. So as more stuff happens, we'll hope to be talking to you again soon.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
All right. Well, that was John Fetterman. We'll see what you guys think about that one in the comments. Much appreciated to him for coming on and for speaking his mind, particularly on trans issues. And thanks to my friend Neera Tanden. Hopefully we'll be having her back again soon. And rest easy to one of the greats, Roy Ayers. He wrote maybe the vibiest song of all time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Everybody loves the sunshine. We're not in a sunshine place right now. So I'm going to take you out today with something else. Y'all can go check out the Roy Ayers discography and come back here tomorrow. We're going to have one of your favorites on a weekend edition of the Borg podcast. We'll see y'all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Breth.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Well, that leads to my last burning question going backwards I just had to ask you, which was, I still don't really understand. Was that why he went out for the first debate? I still don't understand why he went out for the first debate. I think that it actually is a great debunking of the idea that there was some conspiracy to hide his mental decline.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
I'm like, well, if there was a conspiracy to hide his mental decline, why did they agree to the earliest debate in history? But I still don't really quite understand why you did.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
I just thought you might have heard some buzz.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
So, well, I don't think Mike McDonald's itching to come on the pod. So I guess I'll have to learn about the answer in the books, but I'll take your word for that. I'm sure some books will come out. That'll tell me the truth.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
In the books too. All right. Okay. Now we are where we are. I guess I want to start first with the foreign policy, even though you're a domestic policy person, you're, you're banned by Russia. That's in your, that's in your bio. I like that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Are you concerned about what that means for your domestic security now that we have decided to side with Russia? What do you make of what has happened in the last week? I mean, obviously, it's been a long time coming, but it's become particularly acute since Friday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
And now... We have Gropi McHairspluray leading the Department of Defense, but yet people couldn't confirm Neera to the cabinet because, I don't know, she said a couple deservedly mean things about Lindsey Graham. It was outrageous. And I just have to wonder how you controlled your rage watching these dopes be confirmed without any issue.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Who had the temper tantrum first?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Yeah, we have some other news on this front since I taped the last pod. The administration is planning to revoke temporary legal status for about a quarter million Ukrainians who fled the conflict. Adding insult to injury, French President Macron has spoken about how they are now planning for Europe to go at this alone in a primetime address to France, to his nation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
I mean, just unbelievable. Again, it's like the kind of thing that you imagine for a movie. Really, it's the French president saying, our nuclear umbrella will protect you from the Russians because we don't believe that America will anymore.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Among those consequences, you mentioned the economic. Again, we're taping this in the morning, so you never know what happens. Maybe we get a bounce back in the afternoon, but the markets are down once again this morning. They're down significantly over the course of the past week. There are some indications that there are going to be job losses coming based on report.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Consumer spending numbers are down. The economic impending potential catastrophe that has been unleashed in six weeks is It's like, I mean, I have TDS, but it's even kind of worse than I expected.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got a doubleheader today, Senator John Fetterman up in segment two. But first, I'm delighted to be here with the former Domestic Policy Council Director in the Biden administration. She's now back as CEO for Center for American Progress. It is the great Neera Tanden. What's up, Neera?
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
It was. I was ready to go into battle. I was going to put on a sword and shield with your face on it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Neera Tanden and John Fetterman: They're Playing With People's Lives
Was tough. Depended on the day.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
This is one thing I want to ask you about. You're like your little conservative pleasure centers. There's no part of the last 18 days that's tickled anything. You're like, all right, we do need to shut down. It was about time we shut down some of these agencies. They were bloated. There's nothing in there for you? Nope. You know why?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
No, you're right. I mean, for some of these people, it's paying for the tax cut, and that's going to be a big sticky wicket for them because that's a $4 or $5 trillion price tag that there's no money for. For other of these guys, though, this is kind of why I was interested in your answer because you were sort of talking around this point, which is some of these guys aren't conservative.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
They're arsonists. There's a difference between wanting to have a leaner, smaller, more responsive government and wanting chaos, wanting to tear everything down because you want to take power for yourself. Both of those people live together in this administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
The ones that are doing this because they want to pay for the tax cuts and the ones that are doing this because they want to see everything burn.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And this is related to some of the things that I want to talk about. So just hear a couple of news items this morning. We got CBS Jen Jacobs, who is reporting that some federal employees say they found a program downloaded to their government computers that could be used to sift through their team chats to search for keywords. Treasury computers included.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Some staff told CBS they think Musk looking for signs of disloyalty. Washington Post agents of Musk have gained access to highly restricted government records on millions of federal employees, including Treasury and State Department. officials as part of a broader effort to wrest control over the government's personnel agency. This is very alarming, scary stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
But to your point, it is framed as a Musk operation, not a Trump operation. And that is showing in the polls. The other item from this morning, Elon Musk approval, disapproved 49%, approved 39%. Doge approved, disapproved 46%, approved 41%. So he's already less popular than Trump. He is already out there taking the arrows.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And in these stories that are straight out of 1984 dystopia, where it's like we're going to be spying on mid-level Treasury officials whose job is just to ensure that payments get processed, to make sure they haven't said any wrong thoughts about Donald Trump before. That's about Trump. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
All right, well, I was going to get into that at the end, but let's just do this right off the top. We'll get to the news next. Because you had kind of a viral little exchange with our friend Joe Scarborough a couple weeks ago. I don't want to be rude. I understand the instinct, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And also, it might be Elon and his 23-year-old incels that are executing this spy campaign and purge within the federal government, but they're looking for people who are disloyal to Trump. That is what this is about. Thank you. All right, guys, tired of figuring out what's for dinner night after night, especially on those busy weekdays?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Get dinner done the easy way, thanks to our friends at HelloFresh. This is an issue for me. I don't know about this. This is an issue for you guys in your household. But there's nothing that gets my blood pressure going up more than at 4.45. We eat dinner early. 4.45, 4.50, 5 o'clock, looking at my husband saying, all right, what do you want? What do you want? What do you want to do?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
What do you want to do? Oh, horrible. You need to actually have a plan. And HelloFresh's 15-minute meals are done in just three simple steps so you can eat better this year without all the hassle and without having to worry about what you're going to do every single night. Look, as for me, I like HelloFresh because it's easy meal prep.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
It allows me to do podcast prep and meal prep at the same time. I'm listening to an article or an interview with the guests that I have on the next day. So I can start thinking about what a good topic is going to be. And I can do that and have my mind be half focused on that and only half focused on the quick and easy meal prep that HelloFresh provides.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
So it is something that is very useful around our house. Highly recommend. And here's the deal. If you sign up now, you can get up to 10 free meals and a free high-protein item for life at hellofresh.com slash thebullwork10fm. One item per box with an active subscription. Free meals applied as discount on the first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's up to 10 free HelloFresh meals.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
of some folks in the post after, well, you and I weren't shocked, but after the shock that some people went through of Trump winning, to be like, we need to reassess. Maybe what we were doing before wasn't right. Maybe there needs to be more accommodation. It's not that I don't get that instinct. I get it. I just think that it's wrong. And it fundamentally misunderstands
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Just go to hellofresh.com slash thebullwork10fm. And then you can get started with HelloFresh, America's number one meal kit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I know. I'm thinking about, do I need a... It's 8.42 a.m. I probably shouldn't be thinking about a cigarette quite yet. All right. So we have... Trump gives the press conference with Bibi. He seemed to even take Bibi and Susie Wiles off guard based on their facial reactions about the degree of his plans for a casino on the Gaza Strip, the Riviera of the Middle East.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Then we go through the same rigmarole. We always go through it. Next day... You know, Mike Johnson's like, well, you know, we got to see what the details are on this. I think he's being aspirational. Marco Rubio, oh, this is not part of the plan. You know, there's people in background talking to reporters like, well, you know, he was a little out of over his skis.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Trump sends out a bleat this morning. I don't know if you've seen this. The Gaza Strip would be turned over to the U.S. by Israel at the conclusion of the fighting. The Palestinians, people like Chuck Schumer, would have already been resettled. The U.S. would slowly and carefully begin the construction of what would become one of the greatest and most spectacular developments of its kind on Earth.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Like, we're back to doing the same shit. It's like the people around him are like, let me try to retcon what Trump said to make it seem normal. Trump's like, nope, actually, I'm going to make racist jokes about the Palestinians and how somebody that I don't like is a Palestinian because that's a slur to me. And I'm dead serious. I want Trump, hotel, Gaza Strip. So it's all bullshit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
What are the rules at that beach club going to be? Are the women, what's the women's dress rules going to be at the Trump Beach Club Gaza Strip?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I don't know, man. So this is where maybe my instincts are wrong. And so I want you to tell me why this is wrong. But part of me is like, all these smart people are like, don't take the Trump bait. You know, this is what he wants. He wants to distract you. And part of me is kind of like, I don't know. All this bait works for him. Because this stuff trickles down. And regular people see it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
why Trump won and why Democrats failed. And I think that the moment right now, which I think people are coming around to once they start seeing the reality of all this, is calling for going to the mattresses, opposition, doing everything possible to try to, you know, put gunk in the spokes of their tires, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And regular people are like, that don't think about this stuff that deeply. They're like, yeah, that would be cool for America. If we had America Riviera right there on the Gaza Strip. And maybe the answer is trolling back. Like, I don't know. If you're a good Democratic troll like Jared Moskowitz, maybe shouldn't he be filing a bill today saying, Be it resolved.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
The United States is planning on investing in a new casino and high-rise development in the Gaza Strip. I want to budget. Here's a $15 billion budget for it. And I would like my Republican colleagues to be my co-sponsor on this bill. Let's see it. Who's going to build it? We're going to be sent contractors there. Part of me is like, instead of don't take the bait, maybe bait them back.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And let's take some of the MAGA Americans that suffered in the Biden economy. And that's good work for them. There's construction work. That's real.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I want to talk about an economic matter. I know that you saw this. Carolyn Leavitt was asked the other day about prices, and I want to take a listen to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I love that little, as you know, Fox Business, shouldn't you be on our side on this one? That question was a little hard.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
To do anything to slow these guys down and create a narrative about how this is going to be a disastrous failed presidency. that need to be avoided, right? And that is the only actually job for people that are opposed to Trump, whether you're on the left or the pro-democracy right or whatever. That's the job, in my view. And not everybody's come around to that yet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I can't afford... Why do they keep saying grocery pump?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Luckily, we'll have RFK Jr. in charge of managing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I mean, obviously you weren't surprised, but like, man, it is really something that RFK and Tulsi are just going down party line votes. Like, it's really something. You know, Michael, if we had a little time machine, if we got to our little DeLorean and went back to October and got around the table with Todd Young and Susan Collins, Tom Tillis, and we're like, Trump is going to win.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And he's going to make a Fox host, the head of the military, RFK, the head of HHS, and Tulsi, the head of the National Intelligence Services. And y'all are going to go along with all of it. I think that these guys would have told us that we had TDS. I think they would have been like, no, no. Oh, come on. Come on. Either he wouldn't do all of that or I would oppose some of it. And here we are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
It's like such a dog bites man story at this point. I almost get bored mentioning it on the podcast.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I guess you and Joe had a little disagreement on that point.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I'm going to agree with you. Here's what he said to me. I saw him at that Turning Point USA thing I go to every year. We're in the lobby of the hotel. I said, Matt, number one, you made me look like a bad pundit because I said you were getting through. And then you bailed like a little wuss. And he laughed at that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And then we started talking for a little bit, and he starts doing his fake talk and whatever. But I was like, but really? Like, really? Why didn't you push it? And he says to me, he goes, Tim, John Curtis from Utah, the senator that's replaced Romney, he told me privately that it was something like he'd sacrificed his children before he voted to make me the attorney general.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And we're sitting right here two months later, February 6th, and I'm like, I would put my mortgage on John Curtis voting to confirm Matt Gaetz. Where is John Curtis? John Curtis is nowhere. He hadn't done anything at any of these hearings. All these guys are tough as nails in their office. Tough talk. But when push comes to shove, they all were going to fold. Gaetz could have gotten through.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
We can say that again. That's a pussydom. That's a word we can say again now in 2025. I don't know if you knew this, but it was banned during the woke Biden era. You weren't allowed to say that, but we can say it again. We're in a whole different space now. Different words are banned now. Justice. You can't say justice. You can't say equality.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
You were the chairman of a committee. You won some elections back then, in that midterm. Democrats just elected a new chairman, Ken Martin. I don't know Ken Martin, so he could prove me wrong. I've never met Ken Martin. All I know is what I watched during the DNC chairs race. And it felt very milquetoast to me. It felt very limp. And so I hope to be proven wrong on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
But I'm wondering if somebody sends Ken Martin this little video clip here, I'm wondering what your advice would be to him. We had Ken Martin on our show the week before the election.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
It's early. It's early. Okay. One other thing, just to end with some feelings. I was with you. I think it was like two or three weeks before the election. I forget what the reason was. I was up in New York. And it was before the red light had gone on. We were sitting around the table as you and Simone and me. And I was like, guys, I think we're losing. I was like, I think that we're losing. Right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And what do you think? And some other people around the table were like, I don't know. And the two of you were like... We're losing. It's looking bad. And I didn't get a chance to ask you then, what were you seeing that made you feel that way? What were you seeing that made you feel that the country was going a direction where they were not only coming to terms with Trump, but affirming him?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Well, we've got four more years of fighting. People get it eventually. Once people start getting part-walked out to their own investigation, people feel it real good. Okay, hold on. I was supposed to be the last thing. That was too sad. I want to play you one clip. We're going to end with this clip.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
We've got a big football game on Sunday, and our president, who's very mentally sharp, was talking about the game. I want to listen to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
So Donald Trump talking about Tommy Tuberville. One little problem with that, though. You know what the problem is, Chairman Steele? Are you a big college football fan? No, I'm not a big college football fan. One little problem. One little problem. Tommy Tuberville didn't coach Patrick Holmes ever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I don't know college football, but I think I knew that. I was like, he just made it up. He just made up some story about Tommy Tuberville, the dumbest senator ever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I mean, time is a flat circle. It was either on Monday's show or Tuesday's show. I was like, this has been the longest three weeks of my life. And then I was like, wait a minute. It's only been two weeks, actually. So, you know, I'm here. I'm alive. And that's about all we can ask for right now, right? How are you doing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
If we get to just make stuff up, you can't wait. I'm going to be telling about the boys that I kissed back in the day. I'm going to be naming some big names. I'm just going to be like, oh man, I did it. Just like Tommy Tuberville coached Patrick Mahomes. You know?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Yeah, me and little Nas X. I was coaching him on that. Anyway, Michael Steele, I'm so happy you're in our little family here. Thanks for taking all the time today. Nah, man. It's my pleasure, brother. Always. We got much to talk about. All right. That's the chairman. We'll be back tomorrow with somebody a little more liberal than the chairman. He'll take us through the weekend. See you all then.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Yeah. I think part of it is fear. Some people are afraid, right? If they do that of him. Right of him and what they could do. And they're like, okay, well, if I soften the edges of my attacks here, maybe they won't come after me. I'm not telling you. I'm just trying to explain their thinking, man. That's not me. You're as confused as I am. All right. I think that's some of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I think some of it is like Trump does back down every once in a while. So they're like, why not try to get mine on my one little thing? Those are all considerations. But I'm hoping the thing is changing. There's one piece of evidence of this on your boy, Hakeem. There were some initial rumblings in the start here that like the move was, okay, you know, hey.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
We're not going to bail them out, but if they want to come to us with a deal, and it's like some border funding in California, and then we keep the government open, we raise the debt ceiling, we'll be responsible stewards, and we'll get a few things. We'll get a few pounds of flesh out of them, get a few little pieces of silver, and we'll cut a deal. That's what the reporters are saying.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And I'm going, what in the fuck are you talking about? Sure. Like, what are you talking about? Like, there's no deal. There's no deal. Like, make them do it. Make them govern. Like, there's no deal to be made. They're shutting down parts of the government illegally right now and blocking payments to Lutheran services.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And you're like, I'm going to work with them on a border security plus fire relief deal? No, F that. And we're starting to see the tone change on that for the Democrats. News out this morning that the Kash Patel hearing is being delayed because of new information that's been coming out about the ways they're trying to weaponize the FBI. So maybe they're starting to get it a little bit, Michael?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I said it was the longest two weeks ever, but there's only 102 weeks left until they could actually take over the speakership and get some power. Oh, he's not counting. He's not counting. Right, but I'm just saying that Kash Patel can do a lot less damage in 96 weeks than he can do in 101 weeks. Honestly, it does take time to gum up the works. All right, there's a story related to this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
We've got to get into all the Elon news. I could really turn this into an Elon podcast. I don't understand. The guy, he tweeted 200 times yesterday. He's running three companies, and he's tearing apart the entire federal government. There's so many stories about him. It's taking over my entire outline. But I want to get to a couple of stories.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
But there was one thing that you tweeted about that I think kind of frames this conversation here. And that is this. There was... A former NOAA official said this. The strategy here is, well, we're just going to do it and dare somebody to stop us. And by the time they stop us, we'll have destroyed it. And that, to me, is the most succinct summation of all this Elon stuff we're about to get into.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
But do you have any thoughts on that bigger picture?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I'm delighted to be here with the former chair of the Republican National Committee. He's host of the Michael Steele Podcast, distributed right here by the Bulwark. He's co-host of The Weekend on MSNBC. He was lieutenant governor of Maryland. It's Michael Steele. How you doing, Chairman?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Yeah. And I hate to leave this on the federal workers, but in a lot of places, it's like folks are going to need to stand up. So I said to Ann about on Tuesday. But look, it's like there's this post article this morning. This time, the resistance is unfolding in the courts rather than the streets. You have FBI agents suing over Trump's plan to target the agents that investigated the insurrection.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
You know, the unions have asked a judge to block the Doge efforts from accessing personal information. Our friends at Protect Democracy and others are working on this. Again, it's a delay rather than a stop tactic. But like the combination of the courts, but like publicly speaking out is going to have to be what this comes to.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And I do think that that comes with a little bit of fear for some people, but like giving tangible examples of damage being done.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
All you little red things. We're seeing it in Virginia. There was already some shutting down of community health centers because they weren't getting payments.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Hey, guys, we've got a great double header for you today. Mallory McMorrow announced she was running for Senate yesterday. So I'm planning to have her on to discuss the campaign and more. And then I wanted to bring in somebody who had real expertise on what's happening with the markets and the tariffs following yesterday's Liberation Day announcement. And so we brought in Tracy Alloway.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Like those folks, you know, are most of the people that they interview, they talk to for that are going to be Trump supporters. And so if that group is saying that we are seeing uncertainty, we're going to hold off on investing rather than saying, oh, you know, we trust Mr. Trump, we're going forward.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Like, I mean, that is particularly alarming because imagine what people in more skeptical sectors are thinking.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
I'm sorry, Tracy, that doesn't seem right to me because we have the liquid gold that's underneath our feet. And wouldn't they just be so excited that Mr. Trump wants them to drill the liquid gold? It doesn't matter what the cost is.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Hey guys, we've been talking about our sponsor at soul of the group that does the out of office gummies and the out of office THC CBD drinks products. And, and I mentioned I had my husband's 40th a couple of weeks ago and we were using the soul drink products. And you know, we had my man DJ 87 there in the living room. And let me tell you the people that were,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
not wanting to drink alcohol for whatever reason, were very much enjoying the sounds of DJ87, maybe more than they would have been with their Soul out-of-office drinks. Let me tell you a little bit more about them. Soul is a wellness brand that believes feeling good should be fun and easy.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
They specialize in delicious hemp-derived THC and CBD products designed to boost your mood and help you unwind. Their best-selling out-of-office gummies were designed to provide a mild, relaxing buzz, boost your mood, and enhance creativity and relaxation. The gummies come in four strengths. So, you know, find the dose that's right for you. Choose from either a gentle microdose.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
That's more my wheelhouse these days. Or perfect buzz, noticeable high, or a fully lit experience. With wellness at the forefront, you can also feel good about what you're putting in your body. All of Soul's products are made from USA grown hemp. That's good with the tariffs. And if you like their out-of-office gummies, as I mentioned, you've got to try that out-of-office beverage.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
A refreshing, alcohol-free alternative, perfect for summer sipping. So, bring the good vibes and treat yourself to Soul today. Right now, Soul is offering my audience 30% off your entire order. Go to GetSoul.com and use code THEBULLWORK. That's GetSoul.com, promo code THEBULLWORK for 30% off. There's news out today that the March job cuts jumped to the highest level since May 2020.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Trump steaks, Trump airlines, Trump water, fail, fail, fail. He's failed at everything. He was a horrific businessman. He was a good marketer. And we can be honest, he's been a pretty good political manipulator. That's what he's good at. He's a con man. He's good at conning people. But we are all about to experience unbelievable pain, unbelievable economic pain.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
You already mentioned the Dallas Fed analysis. Give us a broader look at kind of like just, you know, the indicators, the possible recession indicators and what people are seeing right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Yeah, I want to get to the Fed next, but just some of the other things, the job numbers, like number of openings are going down. I think I saw you mentioned this in a newsletter. Consumer spending is slowing. You had a newsletter about the credit market.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Also, there's some issues. And you're a dispassionate analyst of all this, but when you kind of look at all that together, like the recession chances, like right now, April 3rd, compared to, say, I don't know, six months ago, November 3rd. of last year and has gone up a little bit significantly.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
You have opinions. That is not true. You very much have opinions. I've seen your opinions.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
I think this is an obvious point, but it's just worth asking because, you know, sometimes my Trump derangement syndrome takes over. Nothing else causes this besides just the chaos he put into the markets over the tariffs, right? Like there's no other outside factor or, you know, kind of cyclical economic factor that is bringing this to bear, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Because people who should have been smarter than this went along with the con. People who should have known better, who should have known Trump for who he is, went along with this and decided to take this risk because they thought maybe they might get a little tax cut. Or maybe there might be a little regulation cut that might help their business. Well, guess what?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Yeah, one of my finance friends sent me a picture of the NASDAQ stock chart. And, you know, I can't verify that he's 100% right about this. But he said that this is the largest 10-minute drop in the history of the NASDAQ futures. So even if it's in the ballpark, not great. To your last point there on the Trump thing. And you've talked to folks that are pro-Trump, that are supportive of the view.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Is there any rational argument for this? Can they make a case that they're trying to weaken the dollar because they're trying to strengthen crypto? Is there any rational argument for what they did yesterday?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
You did it, Donald. We've made the German military sector great again, has its benefits and downsides. All right, back to what you mentioned earlier, the risk to Fed independence, because I am totally with you and Joe on this. I think it's underappreciated right now and a potential risk. kind of medium to long-term crisis risk on top of all this other stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Talk about that and what would happen if Trump and this administration does something to undermine the independence of the Fed.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
All of your fucking businesses are going into the tank right now. And it's hard to see a way out. Tracy Alloway will talk about that in a little bit more dispassionate way up next. She'll educate us, get us smart on what's happening. After that, we'll get to Mallory McMorrow. Very much look forward to it. Stick around. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Yeah, so we love catastrophizing here. So give us the catastrophic risk outcome of removing Fed independence.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Yeah, we are. People that tune into this podcast come for a little afternoon trauma.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
How's the Turkish economy doing?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Like comparing us to the types of things that are happening in emerging capitalists.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
All right. I want to do just a full catastrophizing episode on what would happen if that doesn't just get eroded, but goes away here in this country, and we can do it another time. I appreciate you coming on on a very busy day. Tracy Alloway, everybody check out the Odd Lots podcast and newsletter.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Slash terrifying. Yes, terrifying is more on brand. Up next, Mallory McMora. All right, we are back. She is a Democratic Michigan State Senator and Majority Whip. She's the author of the new book, Hate Won't Win, Find Your Power and Leave This Place Better Than We Found It. Yesterday, she launched her campaign for the U.S. Senate. Welcome back to the podcast, Mallory McMorrow. Thanks, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Good to be here. Are we sure hate won't win?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
We are on the morning following Liberation Day and we have been liberated from the value of our 401ks. I want to talk about that and much more with one of my favorite finance journalists, Tracy Alloway. She's a co-host of Bloomberg's Odd Lots podcast alongside the stalwart, Joe Weisenthal, and also author of the Odd Lots newsletter. How are you doing, Tracy?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Okay. All right. I like that mindset. I'm not 100% sure I'm bought in. But, you know, the power of positive thinking. I want to play for everybody a little bit of your announcement yesterday. And then we'll talk about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
All right. Are you feeling it? Are you ready to run through a wall?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
I want to get into that second part of the ad, talking about what won't fix it. But first, I mean, you've been on a couple of times, but for folks who aren't familiar with you, maybe give us a little TLDR on your childhood, your life, how you got here, why you're running for Senate.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
How do you think you did with Romney family members in that state senate district slash other Cranbrook graduates?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
who's a very insightful observer of what is happening in the markets. She writes a newsletter and does a podcast with my guy, Joe Weisenthal. So she, I think, is going to educate us. I'm going to have more economy experts on in the coming weeks and months because that is what Donald Trump has thrust upon us. And so look forward to that. And we'll probably have Tracy back when the time is right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Busy morning. Thanks for taking the time with us here at the Bulwark. I'm just pulling up my little Bloomberg account here because we're right off the top. Not looking great.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Creators is the word you guys have got up here on the website.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
It is quite a big deal. And I want to get into kind of exactly what the announcement was at the tariffs and the big picture economic stuff. But initially, I just have to react to the fact that your friends in finance world, your sources, the people you talk to, there did seem like a level of surprise. And over on CNBC, after the announcement, they said it was the worst of worst case scenarios.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
What are the impacts you're seeing on the ground in Michigan here from these first couple of months? I don't want to get to tariffs next, but what about on the government worker side? Is that trickling down to what you're seeing in Michigan?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
All right, let's talk about the tariffs. More uplifting news coming from our new oligarchs, our leaders in Washington. This is a news item from your state. Stellantis is temporarily laying 900 U.S. workers in Indiana and Michigan off after it opted to idle production at two plants in Canada and Mexico in response to the Trump tariffs. And that's just one example.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Obviously, the market is reflecting surprise. As you said, by the time this posts, things might be different. But NASDAQ opened down 4%, Dow down 2.5%, S&P 500 down 3%. Why are they surprised, I guess, is my question. They could have just listened to Trump or listened to the bulwark or listened to Newsmax. It wasn't like there was a secret here. I mean, he said it was his favorite word.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
What else are you seeing about the economic stewardship from these guys?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
I assume you understand better than me can maybe the interstate commerce relationship with Canada and Michigan might be one of the reasons why you're in Michigan will be hardest hit. And when, when we did the live event together a couple of months ago, we're trying to block that out since it was before the election.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
So I don't want to bring back bad memories, but I, I kind of, I hadn't actually spent a lot of time in Detroit. I loved it. I thought I really loved our little weekend in Detroit that I had with my family. But we we, I didn't quite realize that you just take the bridge over to Windsor there. Yeah, you could see it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Yeah, I saw it. When we were there, there was a run, like a marathon maybe, or a half marathon, and people ran into Canada and back into Michigan.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Right. In a place like that, where it's that easy to go back and forth across the border... like something like this has a lot of like real effects, even greater than it would, you know, in like Louisiana.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Who wants to come here on an immigrant work visa, by the way? I have people asking me all the time because I've been talking a lot about these Venezuelan deportations. People are like, are you worried? And I said, you know, US citizens are still on pretty good turf. We'll see how dark things get.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
But if you're somebody who's coming in on a work visa from another country, watching what this administration is doing to people, wrongly sending them to a San Salvador concentration camp, I don't want to work on a work visa here if I'm in a foreign country. What happens if they look at my phone or they decide that I overstayed it for a week or something?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
You know, he kept promising it. Why didn't they believe him?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
And next thing you know, I'm shackled in the Natchez prison in Louisiana. That's a legit concern, I think, that those seasonal workers would have.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
What do you make of the, about this, the immigration part of this and this question? I do feel like some Democrats have been reluctant to want to engage on what we've seen with the Venezuelan asylees, with the student at Tufts, you know, because immigration has been a tough issue for Democrats. It does kind of fall into your number two, your safety, number two of your three S's.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Do you think the Democrats should be scared to talk about what this administration is doing with regards to these deportations? And in some cases, not even really deportations, kidnappings, really?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
It shouldn't be a problem in a normal world.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
I appreciate you going there on that. And those stories are horrible. And again, I think you're right. You can, people can talk about this and talk about wanting safe communities without excusing or being silent about this because people really need to speak up. This is just the behavior of a Stalinist country, not America. Mallory, you know, we got to do this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
If you're going to be a new candidate, I got to take you into rapid fire questions. All right. People got to know a little bit more about Mallory. We mentioned already, we alluded to for the elder millennials listening eight mile. What is your favorite Eminem track?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Okay. Running, lifting. What kind of, what kind of, what is your exercise? What's your routine?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Running and yoga. Have you seen the morning routine? The guy that gets up at 3.30 and puts his face in ice cold water and then dives into a pool. Do you have one of those for your campaign?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
You might want to think about the ice ball. It might just be something to do. Now that you're into the campaign, it might be something to think about. Michigan Mount Rushmore.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Oh, that was a very literal way to answer that question. The Mackinac Bridge is a good answer. I want to know who is on it. Which Michiganders you would put on the Michigan Mount Rushmore?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
So they just didn't think he could possibly be this much of a moron. It was unimaginable to them that he could be that dumb is essentially it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Ooh, Aretha. Joe Lewis, I was going to say. You can't do Henry Ford, unfortunately. Turned out to be an anti-Semite. Redhead Mount Rushmore. I'm looking at the very different Mount Rushmores that you could possibly be on one day. What if we made a redheaded Mount Rushmore? What kind of rock is that? I guess it would have to be in the Mountain West to be kind of like a slate.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Shirley Temple? Yeah. I don't know. I assumed you redheads had other redheads that you aspired to be like.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
And you're like, this has been fun. We'll see ya.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
If you could go, they're all Mount Rushmore themed rapid fire. If you could go back in time and make a deal with Donald Trump that we put his face on Mount Rushmore, but he doesn't get to run again for president, would you have cut the deal?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
You have a daughter. She's what? Four now? Three?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
What's the cutest thing that she's done in the last month?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
I love that. I love that confidence. Okay. My two hardest rapid fire questions to leave with. You want to be in the Senate. Should Chuck Schumer be the Democratic leader in the Senate anymore?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
All right. Last one is really going to be the hardest one. It's less of a rapid fire than a gotcha. I follow your Ask Me Anythings on Instagram. They're very good. Other politicians can learn from that. But one thing I learned from following your Ask Me Anythings is a little bit about your Michigan. You don't really have a full Michigan accent.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
And the best way to prove it is by asking you this question. What is your favorite video game?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Super what?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Mario. That sounds a little bit more like outer borough than upper peninsula to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
All right. I bet the Michiganders are happy that you immigrated there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
All right. I appreciate you very much, Mallory McMorrow. Good luck on the campaign. We'll be checking in with you over the next, whatever it is, 20 months or so, assuming we survive.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
All right. Everybody else, we'll see you back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Well, I guess I had the benefit of having to obsess over Donald Trump. There's a lot of downsides to that, having to know a lot about Donald Trump, having that take up space in my brain. But one thing that you could realize is he bankrupted basically everything that he ever said. He bankrupted a casino, and he was a very good PR person and a very good media person.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
But before we get to it, since we got so wonky and nerdy in that first segment, I want to emote with you guys for a second. It is fucking insane that we are here with regards to the stock market and the economy. I mean, as I am taping this right now, the NASDAQ is down 5%, almost 6%, really. The S&P 500 is down 4.5%. This is all self-inflicted. None of this had to happen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
He was never really that good of a manager of businesses, and we're seeing that now. But I guess maybe they all thought since the first term had three good years, I guess that was it. That's the rationale, that he didn't do it the first three years of the first term.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
How would I collect that? It's kind of similar to, I don't know, did you see his bleep the other day where he said that we are, the fentanyl smugglers are going to have to pay tariffs, tariffing the value of this. So whatever vehicle he uses to tariff the fentanyl smugglers, I'll use to tariff him, I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
NARU has been screwing us for years, Tracy. You don't understand. Our leaders have been too dumb, and NARU has been taking advantage of them. Let's talk about some of the specifics here. JP Morgan calls it the largest tax increase since 1968.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
James Surowiecki caught this, and you're kind of alluding to this here, but the reciprocal tariffs is a little bit of a misnomer, actually, because they didn't really look at the other country's tariff rates. They looked at the trade deficit. I guess. So this is James is this example, Indonesia exports 64% more than they import from us. So we use 64% as the baseline.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
And we're very generous, actually only did a half of only half of that. So 32%. This is like nonsense math. I mean, like it's, it's much more than a reciprocal tariff, actually.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Right. Yeah. I don't think you should feel bad or anyone should about being confused by this because this Treasury Secretary, Scott Besant, was on CNN last night and Caitlin Collins asked him about that very issue, the China issue. They said, well, you said it's 34. So is that on top of the existing 20? And Besant was like... I believe it is.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
He couldn't even say with confidence that, and it does turn out, yes, that it was. I mean, the chaos is stemming from that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
It felt like somebody that was, honestly what it felt like to me, Tracy, and this is maybe outside your wheelhouse of knowing the criminology of the White House, but it felt like the people didn't, even inside, they didn't really believe Trump and they were cramming on their midterm and had to push something out before April 2nd. It's like, oh shit, he's really serious about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
We got to come up with a billboard.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
There is not a bubble that has burst. There is not some issue in the credit markets. There were not a bunch of credit default swaps being bundled. This is not the big short. This is not a global recession. This is not a pandemic. It is just Trump chaos. Any pain you have in your retirement account or your 401k right now is only due to Trump chaos.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Like the Treasury Secretary. Yeah, you'd think. Also, just worth noting that Russia, Belarus was not included in the reciprocal. Everybody can just sit with that if they want. I want to get into your newsletter about the long term effects. Was there anything else about kind of the details of yesterday that stood out to you?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Yeah, you're seeing this in Canada, I think most starkly, right? A friend of mine said, I'm forgetting if it was their sibling or their friend or whatever, is living in Canada and keeps sending them photos from the grocery store of how no one is buying any of the American products. They're the only things left on the shelf because people are like, F this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Part of it's the tariff, but part of it is, like you said, the associated brand value. So you had a great newsletter on the other long-term effects on this earlier this week. And there were two things that jumped out to me. One was just Even if this turns out to be kind of a bluff, which it doesn't seem like to me, there could be long-term impact on inflation and prices.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
And also, it's going to benefit the bigger companies over the little guy. So talk about both of those.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
If you're one of the people who are going to lose their job over this, it's only due to Trump chaos. And here's the thing. Trump's Whole career has been failures like this. This was utterly predictable across every metric. We screamed it from the rooftops here at the Bulwark and elsewhere. He bankrupted a casino. How do you go bankrupt in the casino business?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1013: Mallory McMorrow and Tracy Alloway: A Self-Inflicted Crisis
Yeah, a traditional free market conservative economic plan. But yeah, that would be at least something. The thing that jumped out to me about that Dallas Fed thing that you mentioned is... If there was a sector that is more Trump's base than that, I don't know what it would be, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So unclear whether that was bad luck or timing on behalf of the perpetrator. Also, there's a Cybertruck attack in Vegas. There was a mass shooting in Queens last night at a nightclub. The CNN headline, I was just making sure I had my facts right this morning looking through everything, was New Orleans attacked deadliest since Maine mass shooting.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So that's why the Tulsi thing is what is more alarming to you?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Yeah, and a lot of investigations that can happen before checks. That's, to me, why cash is the most alarming, right? I mean, even when Gates was going to be a DOJ, there was plenty of potential harm there. But pretty quickly, you get to, well, we need a grand jury. There are other checks into place.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I don't even remember the Maine mass shooting, which I think tells you a little something about American life. So I'm just wondering if you have any other top line thoughts based on what we know now.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
The FBI has a lot of surveillance and investigation capabilities where he gets Mr. Maga from Albuquerque to start looking into people before anybody else gets involved.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I want to go back to just Tulsi for a second because it relates to the New Orleans incident. Again, more stuff developing. To me, what we know so far about this, the suspect, is that this is a person that was like, its personal life was a disaster and, you know, gets divorced and stuff. and, you know, is unable to see his family. And then, you know, it gets, you know, radicalized.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And so TBD on what kind of associates he did or did not have. But my colleague at the blog, Will Selber, and others have been talking about how the threat of radical Islamic terror is back on the rise. We have this very uncertain world, obviously, with what has happened in Syria. We have Tulsi now headed into this very sensitive post And at times, she's actively working against our interests.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And so I do, just given the threat landscape around the world, I wonder how you look at the Tulsi nomination in that context.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And that was it seems like the case in this instance, I said that he was planning to kill his family. I don't know. It didn't work for some reason. And and, you know, to your point, it's just the inverse of the MAGA complaint. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Which was the military intelligence services or Mark Milley or whatever were too focused on the, you know, white nationalist threats, the people that have been radicalized, you know, by far right ideologies, you know, at the expense of this. And, you know, like the answer is just to flip that around, I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
This sounds like what I was like when I saw Matt Gaetz in Arizona two weeks ago. I said, you made me a bad pundit. I thought that you were going to fight through this all. Anyway, to your point about stopping, we should give the feds some credit. On the other hand, Virginia man had weapons cash, used Biden photo for target practice, was the largest weapons cash in history. That was stopped.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
That throw was stopped at the same time that this threat in New Orleans, unfortunately, was not You'd mentioned the populism that is tariffs or the non-populism. I wanted to share with you something that I feel like David Frum is particularly suited to respond to. We've marked Andreessen, one of our new oligarchs, who is a big venture capitalist, advisor to Trump, seed investor in the free press.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
He posted this. This is a really remarkable chart of tariffs as a percent of total federal revenue. Essentially, what it shows is that from... You know, 1790 through the Civil War, about, you know, much of the federal revenues came from tariffs over 80 percent from the Civil War through basically World War One.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
It was above 50 percent and it drops greatly after World War Two and then continues to drop greatly. Andreessen writes that this shows that the second industrial revolution, which was perhaps the most fertile for technology development and deployment in human history, happened during this period where tariff revenue was above 50%.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Donald Trump then retweeted his new friend Andreessen saying, "...the tariffs and the tariffs alone created this vast wealth for our country. Then we switched over to income tax. We were never so wealthy as during this period. Tariffs will pay off our debt."
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Yeah, please. No. This is why I put it on the T for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I don't even know if Andreessen's making a dumb point or if he is just buttering up Trump. You know, like the idea that he sends this as one thing, but that Trump then sees it and he's advising Trump. To me, this seems like the kind of thing that I know would make Mr. Trump happy. And I have this kind of contrarian point I can make. I'm going to make it and I'm going to show it to him.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
The relation to this, to your point about the oligarchic element of this, that Trump can also use the tariffs to curry favor, takes us to, of course, Elon Musk, who has a lot of potential businesses that could be harmed by tariffs. I suspect that it will not be his that are targeted.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
There was Lieutenant General Russell Honore wrote in The Times that Elon Musk is a national security risk a couple of days ago, wrote about Musk's various dealings with China. I'm interested in your take on that kind of relationship, like the Musk-China element of it and how it is going to overlap with our new oligarchy.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
We have a couple of David Frum special topics we have to get to. The first is what the hell is happening in Canada. We have Trump now talking about how Justin Trudeau is governor. Trudeau making jokes about the 51st state. Trudeau went down to Mar-a-Lago to make an appeal to Trump directly.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Trudeau has his own major domestic problems, and there is a conservative kind of rising, it looks like, to challenge or potentially upend Trudeau in Canada. Everybody kind of uses the Trump of whatever shorthand, and he seems like a more traditional conservative to me. So I'm curious your view on both sides here, what Trump is doing and what's happening up north.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
This could be the mega Quebecois alliance that you've been waiting for, David. You know, they give them their freedom and the little island amidst the American expansion.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I'm going to butcher the guy's last name, but I have to ask you what you think about Pierre Parlevre? Parlevre, yeah. Who's, I guess, likely the next prime minister?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I also would be remiss if I did not ask you about the little kerfuffle with our friends over at Morning Joe. For folks that don't recall, before the holiday, you made a joke, which I thought was a quite funny joke, actually, about how if Pete Hegseth was notably drunk at Fox, you'd have to be – I think you said you'd have to be very drunk indeed to be notably drunk to stand out at Fox –
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Yeah, I think the darkest part of our soul that is revealed to me, I mean, the violence itself is obviously the greatest problem and it's horrific, but I think it's a window into the soul that when an event like this happens now and you get online, you get on your social media of choice or even unintentionally you're on social media and what you see is Not really.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
potentially referencing Judge Jeanine. I don't know who he might have been referencing there. And I guess producer implored you to kind of back off the joke. There was a public back and forth about this friendly one with Scarborough, you know, kind of about this kind of circles back to the question of how to handle, you know, the new Trump administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I'm wondering how you feel about all of that now, maybe not in particular, you know, about Joe Scarborough, but broadly about whether you are continuing to observe in the media a culture of fear, of people sort of editing themselves out of concern about the next Trump administration?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Do you think that just at the broadest level, do you remain concerned that some of these institutions are preemptively backing down in a way that is going to allow the incoming administration to get away with things they might not otherwise have? It's inevitable.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I mean, some information, you get misinformation and sometimes correct information, which is always going to be the case in a developing story. But you also just get a preponderance of people basically rooting for the perpetrator to be of a political tribe that they dislike. And that seems to be a cross-partisan sickness sometimes. You see this in every incident.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I want to end by asking you about you in this regard, actually. When we last spoke, I believe it was the day before the election, and you were contemplating in a Kamala Harris administration in an alternate universe that you might be backing away from this kind of work altogether.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
It seems like that is not the case given our current predicament, but you kind of alluded to this at the top, even thinking about how you're gonna work in a Trump administration. I'm just, I'm wondering how, how you're thinking about that now.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I want to give you, in the Catholics, we have the gesture of the pen of the cross on your forehead and your lips and your heart. I want to let you know you're okay. You're free. You're free if you need to be free of this. There are other people that can carry the mantle. You know, you did run through the tape. Have you contemplated that?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Well, we all have struggles. I feel like, what the fuck else am I going to do? I've not gone through the tragedy that you have. And so I'm empathetic to you and to wanting to free you to find fulfilling stuff. And here we are. To me, I think that there's some value in showing up every day and doing this and working through it with smart people such as you.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So I'm grateful that you're sticking with it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
You would expect that our leaders would be a little bit more restrained in this element of the sickness. We're not getting that from the incoming president. He bleeded on his social media yesterday before we even knew who the suspect was. Criminals coming in are far worse than the criminals we have in our country. Blaming this on migrant crime.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
May it be so. We'll leave it there. I appreciate you very much, David Frum. Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Borg Podcast. Peace. Bye-bye.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
The Board Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
His son said that Biden's parting gift is migrant terror. Hawley, Josh Hawley, Senator Hawley, is tweeting demanding... Mayorkas accountability. The suspect was born in Texas as U.S. Army veteran, obviously a Muslim, and was carrying an ISIS flag. So it would have been, had they waited a couple hours, there could have been another group that they could have waited to target.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
But it's pretty telling that we have a president-elect, you know, like popping off like a radio call-in person an hour after an attack such as this.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
There was a South Carolina Republican Party chair who was not that bright of a guy otherwise and was deeply conservative. I was interviewing him. I was expecting it to be like a lot more hostile. This was maybe back in 2021. He's Trumpy, so conservative in the Trumpy sense. And I was asking him about Lin Wood. And I don't know if you remember Lin Wood. He's one of the many characters of our time.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And he was one of the leading proponents of the most insane edge theories around the 2020 election that obviously at that time the President Trump glommed on to. And the South Carolina party chair had... You know, tried to tell him to tamp it down, essentially, and had this huge uproar against him and the state. I was like, did all these people exist? Like, what happened?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
How did this happen that everybody became so delusional to buy? And like Lin Wood's theories were literally like that Trump was still controlling the nukes after Biden was already president. And he's like, you know, he said these people always existed, but there were two of them at every county Republican meeting. Yeah. But the ones in Greenville did not know the ones in Columbia.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And that is not the case anymore. They've been able to meet and organize and multiply. And I do think that that is true across verticals. There's one other thing that I do want to mention with regards to the New Orleans event that is going to overlap with our politics. Yeah. One of the early press conferences, one of the FBI officials said that this is not a terrorist event.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is our first episode of 2025. And so I'm delighted to be here with favorite of the pod, staff writer at The Atlantic, author of 10 books, most recently Trumpocalypse. It's David Frum. How are you doing, David? All right. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
It's a pretty dumb quote, I would say, and it was going around on right-wing social media. But added on top of that were a series of attacks. Marsha Blackburn found some old posts where the New Orleans FBI officials were protecting the Taylor Swift concert and had some Swift bracelets on. She thought that was inappropriate. It was a diversity hiring event.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I've seen top Republican consultants say mass firings must take place at the FBI. John Barrasso, who is ostensibly one of the more normal ones, was like, this shows we need to confirm. Kash Patel and the national security team immediately.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
This rationale to take this horrible event and potentially some mistakes, of course, that people at the FBI aren't perfect from the FBI and turn it into something we need a hack for Donald Trump to be confirmed immediately is pretty alarming to me. I don't know what your thoughts are about that and cash generally. That is a great point.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
The person at this press conference, by the way, was a black female police officer. I don't know if you knew that or not.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Yeah, I think that also part of it is that they want – again, this goes back to that sickness that I was talking about, immediate social media. Like, they want a FBI director that is engaging in that online political war immediately, right? So, like, oh, we're going to leak that this person is a Muslim terrorist, not a good MAGA American, right? Like, we want people to know that immediately.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
That is going to be the first hit that we leak. Yeah. If there's any suspicion anywhere that somebody that is trans committed a crime, we're going to have a press conference on that to focus on that. We're going to minimize the crimes focused by political allies. I really think it's that. I think there's a sense that – I think it's an incorrect sense, but there's a sense that the FBI –
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
or federal officials like play up crimes such as January 6th crimes, such as Daniel Penny, whatever, and not these other crimes by their perceived foes, racial or political. I think that's what it is. That would be obviously a pretty embarrassing thing to spell out. So I don't think that they would spell that out.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
It is horrible. And it's a sad wintering in the new year. And we had 15 are dead here and many more injured. So TBD on a final count there. The perpetrator was driving a truck with an ISIS flag and turned onto Bourbon Street off of Canal Road. They're usually bollards there to protect against us, but they were replacing them for the Super Bowl.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Well, unfortunately, I think that we have more serious things in front of us in the election of judges to cover, though, again, I don't necessarily disagree with that critique. On cash, we've not spoken since the election, I guess, on this podcast. And so I guess I'm wondering your assessment of the cabinet writ large and what things are the most alarming to you.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
We're coming up here in the next couple of weeks. We're going to have some of these confirmation hearings. Is cash at the top of your list or others? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Hey guys, I launched FYPod with my buddy Cameron Kasky, who was a Parkland survivor that started March for Our Lives. And I did so because we wanted to talk to Gen Z influencers, Gen Z activists, people from across the ideological spectrum in Gen Z to get a sense for, you know, why... these guys, particularly guys, let's be honest, trended more towards Trump than us.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Did you ever get invited to the Dime Square thing? You know about the Dime Square vibe in New York? I know you don't party anymore, so maybe you don't know about Dime Square. I don't party. You should feel very lucky. I got invited to this thing. I was actually uninvited, but I was doing some research on it. And...
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I tried to figure out what the fuck I was being invited to because I'm not cool anymore either. I have a seven-year-old. But there was a group of MAGA folks in New York that hung out in Lower Lower East Side, almost on the way to Brooklyn, in Dimes Square. And they had parties during COVID. And that was how they started. And the pipeline in this instance was like... direct.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Like they were literally inviting people to parties because they were the only ones having parties indoors. And like they brought actual New Yorkers who were not political to them who then
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
have since gone down the mega pipeline and this group was now hosting the cool party during cpac this weekend like here in dc and uh unfortunately i didn't get to go because they didn't want any shit lib youtubers there but i was intrigued by this just because because of that right like like there's some there is something to that like obama did bring in people
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
who were there for the cultural sheen. And I think that I maybe missed how much the Republicans benefited from that during COVID with younger people.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
That's interesting. You were satisfied Zooming in Minecraft? I found the Zoom hangs with my friends to be so unbearable to the point that I quit them.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Derek Thompson, smart boy. He's offering the premise that it is the alternative, that actually the desire to go to dime square parties did give people a rationale for opposing women's rights or not caring about it. And I don't know, maybe there's something to that. I'm going to weave. You know, Trump does the weave, but we're going to weave here. We know how to do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I'm going to tie the room together for you. Because here's the thing that I don't really know the answer to that I think is a real pickle for those of us who don't want fascism in appealing to this group. If your points that isolation and social isolation make the kind of anti-establishment Republican movement
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
view, whatever you want to call that, anti-elite, anti-institutional Republican view more appealing because you're isolated, because you don't have experience with other people, experience with women, experience with people outside of your income bracket. I'll buy that. I'm with you on that. I think there's something to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
And then if you layer onto that the point that I was trying to make about how Republicans did make things more fun during COVID, and in a lot of ways people are reflecting back on that and making them more appealing, which I think is true to an extent. And you layer it up with that, that Democrats right now don't want to talk to or appeal to or date or kiss anybody that likes Donald Trump at all.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
how do you crack the nut? Aren't we stuck then in a situation where people are isolated and they're appealing towards, and so they're going to be drawn more towards right-wing stuff and nobody who has progressive views is going to let them in or make it seem appealing for them to switch back?
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
It's a Roman salute, Cameron. The SIG Heil is a nice transition into the topic I wanted to pick your brain on today. And it is the Germans. Do you have any thoughts on bratwurst now? It's not just about the Germans, but the Germans had an election. And They, you know, things went, I guess, better than they could have.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Finding a place... It's one thing to... Middle school fucking sucks for everybody. It's one thing in middle school to find another middle school kid and go up to them and be a nice person and welcome them to sit at the table. That doesn't happen a lot, but there's not a lot of preconceived baggage there. A lot of times it's just surface level middle school shit. You know?
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
This is way harder than that. This is like, how do we engage people that you think are kind of terrible and bring them out from isolation? That's a lot harder challenge, honestly.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
You know, the Nazi party only got 20% of the vote and they finished in second place, which, you know, wasn't the worst case scenario, which is we can take our wins where we get them these days. But I was interested in this thread by a friend, Rachel Janfaza, who's a good follow for folks if they want to. Her sub stack is also pretty good.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
He was kind of really into the arts and frou-frou stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
all right we're gonna be building community after this your buddy josh rush there were some dating rumors about you at one point it sounded like he's on some disney shows i'd never heard of uh but they're apparently amazingly popular he was the first gay disney character which i don't think we're uh gonna get many more of those in the next couple years yeah that'll be like antiquated you know having a date being a gay disney character like he'll be we can put him like in a hall of fame i
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
No more woke DEI Disney characters. No more. No lesbian kisses in Buzz Lightyear. No Josh Rush having little boyfriends in whatever show that was. Andy Mack.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
We don't like math, but we do like traditional Disney movies. So we're going to go back to the old way where we do Disney movies, where it's just good old-fashioned relationships, just very normal, middle-of-the-road, like when people kiss passing out princesses. We want princesses who have seven midget friends to be kissed by princes against their will.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
That's the kind of traditional relationship we're looking for.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I'm excited. He seems great. He's doing real work out in Austin. He's way nicer and more optimistic than us. So it'll bring a nice change of pace to this bleak podcast. And so everybody should stick around for that. Oh, we also have, in addition to Josh Rush coming up, we have a new segment, Boomer Mailbag.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
So if you're a boomer out there and you want to send us some mail, send it to the Bulwark Podcast at thebulwark.com. And we also have Gen Z News. So stick around for all that. All right, so Cameron should be in charge of this segment, but he's decided to take the interview, take the conversation from the children's wing of the Spirit Airlines terminal at JFK. It was an interesting choice.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Nice. Nice job, German youth. On the other hand, a lot of them were moving to the right-wing parties, including AFD. And she posited that COVID was a big reason for a lot of us. And a lot of the young Germans were not thrilled about the lockdowns and the distance learning and the social isolation. And my boy, Derek Thompson, wrote about a similar thing for The Atlantic earlier this week.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
It wasn't one that was vetted by his co-host, but here we are.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Well, I also have a life and managed to just kind of find a time to tape it from an actual microphone, but that's just one man's opinion. We'll figure it out as we go along. We've brought in your friend, Josh Rush.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
josh i know nothing about except for that he was bunga in the lion guard and i have a little bit of lion king related content at the end of the discussion that's probably not what we should lead with but um what is up man how's it going
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Yeah, it seems like you have hit puberty since Bunga.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Okay, hold on. Was this in a cartoon or was this like in your real life character?
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
That is so cute, though. The young gays have it so much better now. You know, they got to have role models like you. I had Dawson's Creek. It wasn't as cool. So, okay, so you went from that. Now what are you up to?
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
So what are your, are you just like a median woke lib? Or, you know, kind of what are your politics? Are you a secret Bernie?
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
So I just kind of wanted to start with that German election and see if you can shed any light for me on why these loners are turning to Nazism.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
USA, baby. You better watch out if you start talking about bringing actual weapons to fight Eagle-Eyed Martin and the DOJ might write you a letter.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
You're doing great, Cameron. You're just co-hosting the show from the airport, just doing an awesome job. So here's my observation that I want you two to vibe on is Cameron has become very jaded. He was a young activist, like a young fledgling activist when he couldn't shave and was earnest and got people to go to the mall and then became very jaded.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
And you seem to like still, you know, have that dog inside you for activism. So I would like for you guys to kind of explain your perspective on the value and what you're getting out of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
hang out we are doing a white man podcast but i don't i had to it's kind of like my job and so i had to keep doing it but i i i would i would get like wanting to check out right now and not being ultimate being nihilistic i don't know like i've heard from a lot of people that are just feeling more nihilistic now than ever like what what is what is making you go the other way do you think
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Ernest Wessling, millennials, uh, understand what is happening culturally, understanding what's happening with them on their phones and with their anxiety. And, um, I'm super excited, uh, to do it with them. Um, you know, playing the, uh, I was about to say the dad. Could I be cool older brother? Probably not. There's a pretty big gap between us age-wise.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Cam, does this make you feel bad about yourself?
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I have a question for you about and for both of you about how you can fight in red and purple states without being so annoying. And I have an example for you I'd like to give from just two hours ago. I was walking to lunch and this person, God love them. They don't know that I have a anti Donald Trump podcast. All right. They must not be a listener. That's fine.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
So they don't know that I'm already out there in the in the battle space. And I was going to humblebrag. I was going to meet a senator for lunch. We're going to talk about how to beat Donald Trump's ass. They didn't know that that's where I was on my way to. Then I was late. But that said, I walked by and she goes, do you have a moment for trans rights? I replied, sorry, not right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Her reply, I forgive you. I want to turn around and be like, fuck the trans people. I was like, is there somebody else? Is there an anti-trans person whose thing that I can sign right now? And I just I do think that in your guys's world, like maybe not YouTube, but some folks are a little like maybe you're being a little bit counterproductive in their activism.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
So I'm wondering how you think about that and not not creating backlash by being annoying, you know, Gen Z people chastising other Texans.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I mean, if I was not, if I was a worse person, maybe. OK, that's all I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. It was radical. It was slightly radicalizing against the trans rights movement, I would say. It's just slightly radical.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I'm with you on that. I want fighting. I'm for fighting. But sometimes the annoying part of the fighting can have some backlash. Cameron, you did some activism with some annoying people, I think. What do you think about my theory?
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
You can't even think of a single person that was a little annoying that you did activism with?
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Well, so here's my question for you then, Josh. Like, I love your energy. And like Cameron said, our people are going to love your energy. And that's where I'm at too. But like, is it not like among your peers? Is there not like a greater apathy? I don't know. I was texting with Cam about this yesterday or two days ago. And I was like...
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
We have a guy that like totally does not, you know, that believes climate change is a hoax is the president now. And that is trying to dismantle all of the progress anybody made on any climate action. I know you've done climate activism in the past. And everybody told me that Gen Z is like, that's their top issue. Super, super into climate. And like, this is all happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
And it's kind of like, I don't know, like, it seems to me like there's a big meh out there among younger folks. So you're not seeing a March for Our Lives develop right now. But maybe I'm just missing it. I don't know. Like, what do you see among your peers, like, as far as excitement for action right now?
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Um, I, do you think that's like doom behind is like doomerism nihilism or just like, I can't make any difference or what, like, what do you think?
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I was about to feel like an old man had to give a history lesson here when you're like, and half of my friends are like, America was always fucked. I was like, what? I was like, go and watch a movie about 1962. Things have gotten a lot better. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
in defense of norms though i don't know you know that you know that trump is going to start dropping fdr soon once he realizes that he did it trump probably doesn't know yet that he had the three or four but you know that fdr is coming he's going to be as soon as he figures that out just like as soon as he figured out what an asylum actually is like an asylum claim versus an insane asylum he switched up his tune on that one yeah
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
All right. What you know, I guess my other question for you is like being there in Texas is just, you know, like as far as, you know, Colin Allred, such a good dude, you know, and he ran. He's like a fucking football player.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
You know, he did not say that he wanted to fund transgender migrant prisoners, sexual sex changes, and they still spent like one hundred million dollars in ads against him on that topic. Uh, he's a dad, he's a guy, he's more of a man than like makeup wearing Donald Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Like, uh, and yet still there, there was bleed, you know, among, among everybody, but men in particular with him running against fucking Ted Cruz. And so I'm just, I'm just kind of wondering what you're feeling there on the ground as far as like, you know, the, the gender gap side of this.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
So work with me here, though. Work with me. Maybe this is the answer. So you're there. You're in Austin. You're in Texas. You're going to the comedy shows. You're hanging out with Gen Z dudes. Maybe you just need like a pro-trans, anti-school vouchers, progressive guy that also says ****. How about that? Maybe that's it.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I apologize. I want to get to, I need to talk about Scar being gay and we got to get to Gen Z news. But so while taking a break, Cameron, do you have any other topics for Josh before we talk about Scar being gay and Gen Z news?
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Josh is an otter now, officially, just so you know. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
i'm just so jealous like what is that like people tweeting that you might like about your love life like that's fucking awesome like did you feel that did you appreciate how awesome that is or like did you were you annoyed by it because it's awesome um are you annoyed i think i was annoyed i think that i was annoyed at the time people don't know you don't know how good you got it man you don't know how good you got it would have been great how do you know the good day good old days are over till they're gone
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Yeah. What about you, Cameron? Did you enjoy it, the attention, or no?
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
we were hanging out a lot that year that was yeah we were around all the time i can i'm surprised i was just about to say that you know life is long maybe one day now i'm getting uncomfortable okay i have a lion guard question uh it is related actually um so scar have you seen mufasa have either of you seen mufasa You don't have children, so you haven't seen Mufasa.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Okay. This is going to be distressing. Scar was obviously gay. All right. His whole affect was gay. His paw being limp was gay. He was alone in the cave. He needed a male lover. This was obvious from the first Lion King movie. Clearly gay. And then Mufasa just happened, and they redid his origin story as if he became bad because he's mad that Mufasa took Sarabi or whatever her name is from him.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
And that fucking ruined my childhood. And as somebody who's part of the greater Lion King universe, Josh, I'm just hoping that you could tell me who I could send a letter to about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Okay, do you have somebody that I could put attention?
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
uh i'm not sure but you know that's the that's the central corporate headquarters for the walt disney company um and disney channel so okay thank you that's not that helpful i'm just i'm devastated and i was when cameron told me you're gonna be on i was excited that i finally had an in on this and you've done nothing for me but sadly i've left that behind for democratic politics and i appreciate your energy now
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
That's not true. I really appreciate your energy. It's just in this one specific complaint. You couldn't help me.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
All right. Before we get to the Gen Z news, I have another new segment for this show. It is called Boomer Mailbag. If you are a boomer listener and you are a grandpa or grandma and you're listening because you want to hear what your grandkid's life is like, we appreciate you. Thank you for listening to FYPod.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
The first mailbag item, and you can email us, bulwarkpodcast at thebulwark.com if you are a boomer and have a future comment or question.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
uh the first is from i guess i'll redact his name uh but a frequent emailer he writes this notre dame professor of political science patrick denine said my students are no nothings their brains are largely empty devoid of any substantial knowledge that's how i felt listening to klaski and geich don't get me wrong it was fascinating to learn that people like them are influencing hordes of young people
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Imagine how much bullshit the guys like Geick and Klasky are spewing to their young listeners. Good luck, America. Do you have any response to that mail, Cameron? No, I think he covered everything. Josh, do you have any thoughts for the mailbag segment?
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
He actually has written three emails. And so if no other boomers write an email, I have another one for him for next week's mailbag. So I appreciate you, BW. All right. Next up, Gen Z News and producer Sebastian.
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
You know, I think this is just kind of boomer shit, to be honest. We got this too, us millennials. There was a whole meme about this, about how we were wasting all our money on avocado toast. We don't cook anymore.
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I was spending my money on avocado toast and I didn't cook. That is correct. In 2014, we all were. Yeah, and here we are. I have savings now. Thanks to you, our Bulwark Plus subscribers. Okay, next question, Sebastian. Sure.
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I have some problems with this. I think you guys are to blame for the backlash against the LGBT community. That is too many. What was the percent again?
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
No, that's a woke answer. That's fucking wrong. That's not what's happening.
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Anyway, I'm doing the best that I can to try to learn from the kids. And so we have a huge array of guests. They're going to be coming. I'm excited about some of the folks we have coming up. This week, the episode you're about to hear was episode two with Joshua Rush, who was a Disney star that then quit Disney. and became a political activist, political campaign professional.
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Women are not really, they're kissing other women and they're being like, okay, count me. I count because like I did a makeout one time. I disagree.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
You think 31% of women have done cunnilingus? You think 31% of Gen Z women have done cunnilingus?
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
What do you think about the girls? You think one in three women have kind of gone down under?
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I'm not sure that it's going to happen. He sent me a list of 13 potential guests, and there were 12 bisexuals and a trans person. I think we're on the list.
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I have a serious follow up. Are we sure that there's not that part? I'm back to the backlash again. And it's not just because I'm better that that young lady told me she forgives me when I didn't do anything that merited forgiveness on the street today. But like... I don't know. Is this a little bit of part of the backlash that we saw? Is this why the trans stuff is working better?
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Just because there are a lot of parents out there who aren't as cool as me who are like, I'm pretty nervous. I mean, I got a one in three chance here. It feels a little risky. It feels a little trendy. It feels a little too trendy for me. Maybe we got to dial it back. Maybe we need somebody really butch like Stephen Miller in the White House to make sure that we kind of dial back the bisexuality.
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I actually have one more thing for you. Do you have any final thoughts on that before my final request for you, Josh?
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Okay, here it is. Give us a stirring close. You gave us such a bulwarky open, you know, passionate. We need like a bisexual William Wallace calling people into action to close the podcast.
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I love it. That's what I was looking for. You're great, Cameron. Great pick.
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I'm with you on the loneliness thing and that having an appeal. If you're lonely, if you don't have a support structure, if you're not hanging out with women at IRL, you become more drawn to the Andrew Tate, I'm a tough guy, F the man kind of element. You get drawn to that ethos. I understand that. The thing though is that like... And so I want to talk about that.
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
But if you dial it back to COVID, and this was the theory that Derek Thompson was putting forth, was that a lot of this stuff was these guys feeling that the powers that be, the medical infrastructure, the government infrastructure, the schools, kind of failed them. Like where they were not really at risk
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
of dying from covid and their you know whatever and you know their wrestling tournaments got canceled they had fucking social distance graduations they didn't you know get to you know experience their whatever these prime years of being 18 19 20 21 um in the way that they that they should could have been able to And I like I think that there's something legitimate about that.
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Like, I understand why there's maybe a reactionary response to the people that canceled the graduations. I understand the other side of that argument, too. But I'm wondering what you what you think about that.
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Now he's working in Texas. So he has more of a positive view on things than me and Cameron who are pretty jaded. So I just wanted to give you guys a taste of it. You can go to subscribe to the feed, go to FY pod on your podcast player of choice. We'll be having, I think next week's guest is going to be pretty fun and we've got some good ones coming down the pike. So
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I know. So this is where when you were saying at the top that you kind of understand, like you feel like, you know, had you not been a drama boy that you might have tipped over or at least been more intrigued by the red pill path, like libertarian all boys school and Rand reading Tim, um,
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
comes out when i start to think about all this and the derrick article he writes he's like maybe some of this group will not be generation z but generation c there'll be people radicalized by covid and turned conservative because of it and like i don't know man just even i know you're like mocking that notion that like let's hang out with the fun uncle kind of but it's i kind of get it i don't i don't know right i mean like there is
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
There's responsibility, sure. But isn't there somewhere between being a scold and being the fine uncle? I don't think anybody was really selling, like, yes, be responsible. Don't go to a fucking, you know, Molly party and then go to your grandma's house afterwards. You know, like, let's not maybe all breathe on each other in a gym during the height of the COVID wave. But also to, you know, like...
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
we should have outdoor sports and people should be able to go to the beach and you shouldn't feel scolded if you're not wearing a mask, if you're in an open air set. I don't feel like that was happening. And I can understand, I think, the fun uncle appeal.
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BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
I'm anti-sexual assault. I just want to say that. I was pro not wearing a mask post-vaccine, and I was pro being able to hang out with the boys and do a blunt circle outside at the beach rather than being forced to sit in our homes. So I feel like there was a middle ground there between sexual assault and not being allowed to do anything.
The Bulwark Podcast
BONUS EPISODE from Tim's New "FYPod"
Would appreciate it if you subscribe to the feed. Give us five stars. Hope you enjoy it. Up next, FYPod with Cameron Kasky and Joshua Rush.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
But just the scope of these and reporters doing good work in several different credible outlets, it just seems like there's a real problem here.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Older brother, older friend.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
A lot of people want me to do it, he said. But I mean, I basically tell them we have a long way to go. You know, it's very early in the administration. When asked to follow up about whether he wanted to do it, he responded, I like working. I'm not joking. It's far too early to think about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
I haven't had you on since the Kristi Noem pinup video with the Rolex watch. I know we were texting about this. I just want to let you kind of cook on Kristi Noem.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Before we talk about how annoyed we are at Democrats, we went through this period where it was like, Democrats, Bernie went on Joe Rogan's podcast. You can't go on Joe Rogan's podcast. He's so awful. He's so cancelable. Well, let's hear who has been more clear eyed about what is happening with the Venezuelans between our Democratic politicians and Joe Rogan. Here he is with Constantine Kissin.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
What I also don't really like is kind of one of these contrarian, centrist, comedian, you know, anti-woke types. But here's the two of them discussing the El Salvador prison.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
He goes on to say there are a couple of options, including running as VP and then having the president resign. I think it's important when talking about this to say this is not legal and not going to happen, unless he wants to attempt a military coup. But it is noteworthy that he is openly talking about this without real pushback from within his own kind of party, actually the opposite.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Horrible. More moral clarity and emotion from Joe Rogan than I've seen from basically anyone in elected office over this. I sent a tweet the other day because I was like, maybe I'm just missing it. I was like, could somebody send me examples of Democrats? And obviously, fuck the Republicans. None of the Republicans have said anything.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Not only that, they're doing their sadistic photo shoots with the people that they've kidnapped. So just stated that. F them. The Democrats, though, so I sent a tweet. I was just like, could people please send me any examples of Democrats saying or putting out a statement about the Venezuelan refugees that we've sent to this fucking hellhole? And I got a couple replies.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Debbie Wasserman Schultz put out a pretty good statement. I'm blanking on her name. There's a congresswoman from Texas put out a pretty good statement. I'll put that in the show notes because I want to give her credit. But a bunch of people sent me examples of Democrats speaking out about Ozturk.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
And for whatever reason, I think people feel more comfortable about what's happening on campuses and free speech. And that's great. The situation with Tufts is horrible. But that was it. Those two were the only ones I've seen. And it's like... Okay, I know we've got Dems listening to this right now. It's like, what is the holdup on this?
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Like, what is it about this that allows Joe Rogan to speak with moral clarity about how horrific it is, but it doesn't allow you to? I truly don't understand.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
And by the way, Abu Ghraib was awful. In that situation, it was enemy combatants, it was terrorists. And at some level, like this is even worse.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Without any pushback, right?
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Here's what I think is part of it, at least in the modern day, in the Trump era. I don't know if I can speak to whether this was true or the case among Democrats back when I was on the other side. I think that a lot of Democrats really feel confused by the country right now. And I think that is what is driving it. They just genuinely cannot understand how Donald Trump had won
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
don't really understand it kind of do you can pay lip service to the appeal like get it at get it at one level but i get a deeper level somewhere deep inside them they're like i actually really still don't understand i and i i kind of feel this way a little bit too and so it's like i should probably be more cautious i should probably listen to you know look at the numbers and look at the data and like think about what issues what issues can i talk about that might appeal to these people who i don't understand right who voted for donald trump
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
That's my armchair psychology analysis about why it's happening now. And this is why I'm playing the Joe Rogan clip for these folks, because it's like, I assume it's surprising to some Democrats that are like, Oh wow, Joe Rogan is speaking out on this clearly. And it's like, maybe this is not as unpopular of an issue as I thought, right? Like maybe, maybe the American people aren't that terrible.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Maybe like the American people have some terrible instincts and are easily manipulated and are easily conned. But like when it comes to the case of a gay hairdresser getting sent to a foreign gulag for no reason, um, Maybe we can get majority support for that. I don't know. It seems to me like it's worth a try.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
A, it seems to me it doesn't fucking matter, actually, whether it's popular or not, but it's also worth a try. If you can listen to a Joe Rogan podcast and hear them speaking like that, like a normal human with empathy, with clarity about how this is something that Americans should be against, it's fundamentally anti-American. then maybe that will stiffen the spine.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
I will tell you, as a carrot, maybe they don't want this carrot, actually, because they don't want attention about them talking about immigration. I think that is another really big part of this. Democrats have decided that any talk about immigration is bad for them.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
But, you know, if you're a Democrat looking for attention and want to do a selfie video where you're talking about how horrible this is, I will share it. I will send it to my other friends who have big accounts, and they will share it. And we will, you know, get attention for you, because attention is important these days. We have the tariffs coming again. Liberation Day is this week, April 2nd.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
That is Wednesday. We'll see what happens, obviously. I'm always a little hesitant to do a stock market talk on this pod because things can change over the course of the day. But off the open today, NASDAQ's down about 2%, Dow's down a little bit, S&P is down about 1%. So the market continues to dip on the idea that Trump is serious about this with the tariffs. He's given no indication.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
There's a big Politico story over the weekend that like the people around him don't really understand what the plan is. But all they do know is that Trump wants to go big. He's serious about it. Those are the leaks coming from inside the White House. You know, eventually, if he doesn't actually follow through. you would think that his own ego would prevent like that, right?
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
I mean, given how much he's put into this. There's a good chart that was like for people who are struggling to follow this, like what tariffs has he talked about, what is coming and what has actually happened. What has actually happened is this deal on aluminum tariffs and the China tariffs. Everything else has just been discussed.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
To me, I've always felt like this is actually going to happen, that it's not WWE, but I guess we'll know more in three days. What do you make of it?
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
I think so. This is Bloomberg this morning with the market route intensifying. Also, Goldman has rising recession concerns. And Bloomberg says that it's leaving the S&P 500 index on track for its worst quarter as compared to the rest of the world since the 1980s. Which, again, shows that this is not some global downturn that has happened in the first three months.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
It is something unique to the uncertainty that Trump is inserting into the market. As far as buying their own BS... One thing I thought was interesting over the weekend was our vice president, the poster in chief, quote tweeted, it's this guy that writes for Red State named Bonchi. You don't need to know all the characters here, but he's conservative. Red State was Eric Erickson's thing.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
He's quite conservative. Occasionally, you know, is maybe not the biggest MAGA, but is decently MAGA. And he posted about how like this tariff thing is crazy and I'd like you're going to help a small number of people who are in one sector, in this manufacturing sector, but it's not even going to do that much.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
You're going to help a small number of people, and there's going to be massive other groups of people who are MAGA voters who are harmed by it. That's the gist of his tweet. J.D. quote tweets him and says, it is this brain-dead liberalism pretending to be conservatism that saw the U.S. go from the world's manufacturing superpower to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The guy didn't tag J.D.,
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
JD just decided to dunk on some random conservative blogger and calling him a liberal now because he's against tariffs because now to be for tariffs is to be conservative in their worldview. And I just thought that was interesting because it reflected kind of a real defensiveness and emotional attachment to defending the tariffs because he thinks that they're actually coming.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
And also, I thought also it was interesting because to me it read like him trying to intimidate people into staying on side. Like this thing is coming this week. And if you're a right winger and you're going to criticize it, well, then you're going to get the vice president giving you a spanking.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
No. It's worth noting just for the facts, if you're talking to your MAGA pal down at the bar. The 12th Amendment says clearly you can't be vice president if you're ineligible to be president. And the 22nd Amendment obviously has the term limits. So it's right there, plain text. So even the VP plan, which is the cutesy version of doing it, doesn't really work. I mean, it's like...
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
I think that that is related to it. It's related to me to the Denmark thing. Yeah, it is. Greenland. So JD's in Greenland last weekend on Friday. You know, he's giving this preposterous press conference. It feels like it's from a different universe. The thing that's struggling from the press conference, maybe the most, was the parts where he's going after Denmark.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Because it's like deeply personal, like the way that he's going after Denmark. He's like, you know, I don't want it in front of me. It's essentially like the Danes. let us down. They let Greenland down. They're not doing their job. It was one of his tells. Whenever he's being ridiculous, he starts with, we have to be honest about this. We have to be honest about this.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
The Danes have really failed as a partner. But he never says what they did. Denmark didn't do anything. Denmark actually, as far as a percentage of their GDP, is spending above the NATO, what is required for NATO, and they're increasing it over the course of the year. The Danes
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
sent people to the wars jd mentions that and kind of dismisses that also too he's like oh well great so the denmark danes sent some soldiers 20 years ago and now i'm supposed to be nice to them it's like what you know they can't even articulate it like it is it does feel and i can understand why the europeans then would feel more alarmed by that because it feels like they have a deep emotional hatred for our allied nations that's frankly like irrational yeah
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Yeah, Matt Fredrickson, she's kind of like a center-left. Yeah. I mean, for Europe, she'd be pretty left for a year, probably. But, yeah, I mean, she's not like...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Part of the same call with Welker where Trump floated becoming an autocrat. He also talked about Putin. And we're going to get into this tomorrow. This is going to be more of a foreign policy-focused pod. But I think this bears mentioning is that he says that he's kind of disappointed with Russia over the fact that they haven't cut a deal. I guess Putin made some comment about Russia.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
how Ukraine should have some other temporary government during the deal. Like it shouldn't be Zelensky that they're negotiating with. And Trump said he was disappointed with us. And then he kind of went on to say, if Russia and I are unable to make a deal on stopping the bloodshed in Ukraine, and if I think it was Russia's fault, which it might not be, Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
My friend JJ McCullough tweeted, it's like, well, could this plan work for a five-year-old or a five-year-old runs as named VP and then the person resigns? Like, obviously not. So to me, the interesting side of this is part of this is him trying to stave off the lame duck element. And part of it is the fact that, you know, all things being equal, he would want to stay.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
And I don't think we can have any confidence that a deteriorating 81-year-old Trump wouldn't try. And I think it's worth being vigilant about that and not playing into his hands with how to talk about this. But I do think it's incumbent on the Republicans to be pressured to come out of their shell. Not that I'd be optimistic about that, but I think that it should be incumbent upon them.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Yeah, due process. We'll get to that. The other element of where they're skirting their belief in the law is happening in Wisconsin. So we discussed on, what was it, on Thursday, I guess, with Lovett, this Wisconsin Supreme Court case, which is Relatively significant in that if the Republican Attorney General of Wisconsin won, then that would shift the balance of power back to Republicans.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
He's editor-at-large of The Bulwark and author of our Morning Shots newsletter. It's Bill Kristol. How are you doing, Bill?
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
If Democrats maintain control, some of the gerrymander in Wisconsin might be changed, which could potentially allow for more fair maps in the states. So it is important. It is interesting that Elon Musk, the world's richest man, is there. He spent $20 million on the campaign. He says that I think the fall of civilization or something rests on this race.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
So I don't know if it's that important of a race. He, last night, had a speech in Green Bay where he handed out $1 million checks to two people. Wisconsin law prohibits offering anything of value to induce anyone to vote. Also, there's some questions about whether he's running an illegal lottery in Wisconsin.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
A Kristol monologue. I had many people bragging about Bill Kristol Mondays at the New Orleans Book Festival this weekend. It was nice to see folks at the New Orleans Book Festival. If you thought you were going to get demoted, I don't think it's happening. I think we are stuck with each other. Did you sell a lot of books at the New Orleans Book Festival?
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
For sure. I mean, I think that the Doge fraud and the Doge corruption and just like the haphazardness with which they've acted is certainly hurting them. The other little thing about just this one million, I just want to linger on that for one more second, because... One of the winners, so-called winners of the 1 million, appears to be the head of the college Republicans in the state.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
So again, we'll see exactly how that works out, but that doesn't seem like that is a process on the up and up. We've seen some from the left online talking about how Democrats, like one way to play hardball here is Elon Musk should be arrested in Wisconsin. We don't do a ton of arresting over election law violations, though we used to, but less lately with the neutered.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
federal election commission i guess my question is how do you deal with this like it is just out in the open corruption like it's comically obvious you know he's got the big checks like the whole thing is it's almost like when you imagine electoral corruption you imagine like behind the scenes you know there's a brown paper bag or you know it's the mayor daily it's like this kind of stuff like what they do is avoid accountability by
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Actually, no, because they sold me out very quick, which was nice. I don't think that our mutual friend, Mayor Landrieu, Mrs. Landrieu, the Isaacsons, they didn't realize what they... what they had with me as far as book sales is concerned.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
I do. And I think, look, there's the Wisconsin Supreme Court election, and then the same night is this Michael Waltz election in Florida over on basically from St. Augustine down to Daytona Beach, quite a red district. And so I think the potential for freakouts just as far as tea leaf reading is very much possible on both sides.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
I think that it's this kind of math teacher running Wisconsin against Randy Fine, who's of weirdo and unpopular Republicans. That's hurting Republicans in addition to the environment being concerning for Republicans. As far as these types of things go, they both are decently significant, more significant than they would be in a vacuum.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
One thing, I just want to make sure I clarify and get this right. The sitting attorney general of Wisconsin is Josh Call, who's a Democrat. In theory, he could be enforcing election laws in the state with regards to Musk. I just want to leave that out there. The candidate for the Supreme Court, Brad Schimel, is a Republican that was the former Attorney General of Wisconsin. So very significant.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Musk had a cheese head hat on. Oh, I didn't see that. Is that right? He looks very silly. We'll put it in the show notes if people want to laugh at him. Tesla's stocked down today a lot. I'm sure he's a real authentic Packers fan and Badger fan. He's such a masculine man. I'm sure he can name more than three present NFL players still. Definitely he's a guy that knows sports.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Well, as you all know, I share my opinions pretty freely on this podcast, and sometimes I get in my feelings, get emotional. So you can imagine why I need a way to boost my online privacy and security to prevent people from snooping around or trying to hack into my devices. That's where Surfshark VPN comes in. Surfshark's military-grade encryption helps protect my online life from prying eyes.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
And since I travel a lot, I can know my data is protected. Here's one example when I'm sitting in the airport using free Wi-Fi. Hackers love that public free internet. Plus, Surfshark does not track or log its own users' data. So that means no IP addresses, no timestamps, and my browsing history stays with me. It's privacy at its finest. Also, I'm out on the road.
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S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
I can watch my favorite movies or even stream a Nuggets game. Surfshark lets you bypass geo-restrictions to access blocked content from around the world. Surfshark also offers other products like Surfshark Search, say that five times fast, which allows you to browse without being tracked or bombarded by all those annoying ads.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
don't let online threats catch you off guard it's time to take control of your online security with surf shark vpn try surf shark today and enjoy the risk-free 30-day money-back guarantee secure your privacy with surf shark go to surfshark.com slash the bulwark for four extra months of surf shark and we will link that special bulwark offer for you in our show notes so
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
I want to move on to El Salvador. A lot to discuss, a lot of developments over the weekend. I want to start, though, with this audio from a town hall because I think it ties to these political questions as well as the El Salvador issue itself. Victoria Spartz, who is the Ukrainian immigrant that is a Republican representative from Indiana, was at a pretty raucous town hall.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We got a proper Louisiana thunderstorm brewing outside my window. So, you know, if you get a little audio accompaniment of some thunderous noises, well, I think that's just appropriate for all the storm clouds we got on the horizon that we will be discussing here at the show. It's Monday, so of course...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
She had a lot of negative feedback from the residents. Appreciate those folks for showing up. But she got kind of on tilt talking about the deportations, well, not deportations, the kidnappings, the removals to El Salvador. And here's a little bit of what she said.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
You violated the law, so you are not entitled to due process. It's not really how things work, actually. How would that work, exactly?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Sentence first, verdict afterward from the Queen of Hearts. Yeah, Victoria's Farts does kind of give off Queen of Hearts energy. I want to actually go through what we've learned about a couple of these cases, and then I want to talk about the politics of it too. So we've been discussing entry, the gay makeup artist quite a bit. The ACLU is in court on his and others' behalf.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
That is true. I would not try to outshine the Landrieus. Okay. Much, much, much to discuss. I'm kind of reluctant to have this as the first topic, but I think that we should do it in the right context. And that is that Donald Trump was on a call with Kristen Welker I mean, the press over the weekend where he started talking about the idea that he would run for a third term.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
So we found the government's rationale for for removing him. It was the tattoos. In this case, he has two tattoos that they pointed out. They were crowns. One said mother underneath, one mom, one said dad. So I don't know if those are popular gang tattoos, but it sure doesn't seem like it to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
Also, you can look at a partial transcript, I guess, of the interview with him where he keeps saying, no, I'm not part of a gang. No, I'm not part of a gang. No, I'm not part of a gang. And then ICE agents writing down, yes, trying to Aragua. And the whole thing is... Extremely Orwellian. Then the Miami Herald did some good reporting on this other gentleman, Frenkel Reyes Mota.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
They write that in the filings with regards to Mota, the government uses someone else's last name in several parts of the document, identifies him with female pronouns, uses two different unique ID numbers that immigration authorities use to keep track of individuals. Doesn't seem like they... We're really crossing their T's on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
We talked about Nary Alvarado, the baker with the autism awareness tattoos. Then the Dallas Morning News is done reporting on this. And I'm going to be talking to the Mother Jones reporters. I think I've talked to the families of 10 of the Venezuelans who are in El Salvador on YouTube later today. So people can check that out.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1010: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats
I don't understand how you can go through these case by case and not think that there's There's a real problem here. Maybe in one of these cases, I've been joking, maybe Andre is the hairstylist in the movie Blow who's helping move cocaine in and out like it's possible.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Yeah, the Saved by the Bell stuff spoke to your generation, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Well, Vivek clearly wasn't watching enough Saved by the Bell because he didn't really get the references exactly right. Zach had a better SAT score than Screech. But anyway, so this fight, some of it, I could see how somebody might think, oh, this is just like, The king's court fighting in any, you know, for attention in any regime.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I do think that the immigration thing, though, if there is anything that is core to MAGA, it is immigration and nativism. And Elon went so hard to the map on this. He sent a tweet that talked about how he will go to war. saying F you to somebody who had been attacking him over this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
There was this tweet by Autism Capital, which is like a crypto thing, where they were trying to summarize the fight and the two factions on the right. And this guy writes that the tech right or the Doge right is saying that American workers are too retarded to do these jobs and you can't out train being retarded. And Elon Musk replied to that guy saying that pretty much sums it up.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
This was eye opening. So to me, again, you're not going to kick Elon out because of the money, like I said earlier. But it does reveal a fundamental rift, right, that if these guys aren't willing to swallow the tech guys, their views on immigration will. Then, eventually, I would think that they're going to lose out to the Stephen Miller wing internally.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And I guess the last thing I'll say about this, I'm curious your thought, is that the immigration fight could be the first fight. Because Revote and those guys want a reconciliation bill in the first 30, 60 days. This goes back to what Gates told me about during the deportations day one. They want a reconciliation bill.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And so I think that could be an interesting data point, given the close relationship between Cash and Steve for a confirmation hearing. So anyway, after that interview, it's one of those things where MAGA takes over downtown Phoenix. And so we're in a hotel. We're doing this interview. I go downstairs to the hotel lobby. And I just bump into people, Bill. I don't know. These people, they know me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
on immigration to fund the border to fund the jackbooted thugs to fund whatever else they you know they've come up with asap so they can get moving on their deportation plans and so who knows maybe they end up just kind of ignoring the legal immigration part of the fight and they can move forward but it's not like this is something that's going to simmer and then they'll deal with in 2026 you know and it's coming soon so anyway what do you think
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
They're from a past life or from this current life. Some of them really hate me as a MAGA provocateur. Some of them are old colleagues that I work for on campaigns. So, I started chatting with some people in the lobby, including Matt Gaetz. I don't think that I include the Gaetz bit in the article. I still like to see Gaetz in the lobby. He was definitely a little bit chastened, I would say.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I think he looks way weaker than he did the week after the election. I don't think that there's... Is that right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I mean... Yeah. I would have expected... people to be much more in line. And maybe that changes January 20th, a month from now, he looks stronger than he does now. And he's just been focused on golfing and being the DJ at Mar-a-Lago. And who knows? I don't know. Maybe he gets in there and you see Iron Fist Trump appear, though.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I kind of don't expect that at this point, but I think that's certainly possible. On the just immigration rift as an example, I do think that The vulnerability is kind of the public stuff. So there might be a temptation to be like, oh, well, this is all, who cares? Let's not focus on their little petty fights.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
But to me, I think that is where you can create fissures and divide them is over this public stuff because the nativists are going to win the private fight. Elon already showed that he doesn't know what he's doing on this government shutdown thing. Elon doesn't even know the committee process. He wasn't even sure that there were two different chambers of Congress a month ago.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I'm not 100% sure he was. I think that Elon... is not going to win the internal fight. Now, Trump, I think, sided with them on this H-1B thing in an interview with the New York Post. So at the kind of top level, Elon is winning and access to Trump is winning. But who's going to be writing the immigration bill? Stephen Miller.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Who's going to be writing the rules that DHS puts in place as far as dealing with you know asylees or dealing with dreamers or whatever it is stephen miller right it's not going to be elon and his buddies like and so that like tension is going to bubble up on the public facing stuff at some point so And it's just really quick on the tax thing. They're only going to lose two votes in the House.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
They're going to end up having disagreements on the tax thing that are in the details, devils in the details on this stuff. That's not like about these big thematic things. It's going to be about, you know, like whether they can extend the SALT deduction, like the New York and California Republicans might decide to be hassle on that. Right. Like and Trump's not in there writing this bill anymore.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
You know, so they're not going to feel like they're opposing Trump if they're opposing certain elements of the tax bill. They're going to figure out how to make it work, you know, to pass the reconciliation rules. It's just like very challenging. Again, there's stuff that Vote and Miller can do, like separate from all this fighting, that's going to be very alarming and dangerous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I'm not saying this is a clown show that will end up doing nothing. But like the big legislative fights, I think are going to be a lot messier than I had maybe anticipated a couple weeks ago.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
But people were too complacent in the meeting where you were planning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
The last couple times I've seen Matt, he's been very brash and shit-talking. We're about the same age, and he supported Jeb initially, so I know Matt decently well. I definitely think he was a little bit chastened, and his wife was right next to him, though. The whole time I saw him and, you know, he said to sneak off to do an OAN hit, his new job. He's a competitor now, I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Let me just read that really quick, because you mentioned, so the new Congress constitutes Friday, they're going to have to elect a speaker. And so there are two fights coming even before he gets in, in addition to the confirmations, which will start before the inauguration as well. And boy, will we have wall-to-wall coverage for you of the Pete Hegseth confirmation. I've got big plans for that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Here we go. This was Trump on the debt ceiling. The extension of the debt ceiling by a previous Speaker of the House, he's talking about Kevin McCarthy, a good man and a friend of mine, from this past September of the Biden administration to June of the Trump administration will go down as one of the dumbest political decisions made in years. Kevin just can't catch a break.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Sarah's crushing him on panels. Matt Gaetz is owning him. Trump is just calling him a good friend, but then saying he made the dumbest political decision in years. Anyway, Trump writes, there's no reason to do it. Nothing was gained, all caps, and we got nothing for it. A major reason that McCarthy's speakership was lost.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
The Democrats must be forced to take a vote on this treacherous issue now during the Biden administration and not in June. They should be blamed for this potential disaster, not the Republicans. It's interesting that Trump sets the debt ceiling timeline in this bleat as June. Some experts have said that the debt ceiling would hit quite a bit before that, early here in 2025.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Regardless, yeah, I'm curious your big picture thoughts on, I mean, are the Republicans going to be able to extend the debt ceiling? Will the Democrats want to help them? Can Mike Johnson navigate this and stay speaker? Again, it's like much more challenging than I think it might have seemed from the perch of November 5th.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I did tease him about that. I guess the only newsworthy thing he said was kind of about how he wants the deportations to be able to start day one and how that impacted, you know, the importance of having an attorney general in their day one. Again, could be BS and bluster, but interesting thing to say.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I think they're worried about Chip Roy and them that like that there are enough House guys who are just out there on this that they can't do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I have a Democrat that is a listener that has been texting me saying that he thinks that is a win for the Democrats to be like, let's extend it. Let's get rid of the debt ceiling forever. Let's just do it now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
So during all these conversations, I get invited by somebody that I had known to James O'Keefe, who you might know from Project Veritas. They do the undercover stuff. He had an after party. So it's like they have all the speakers and the blah, blah, blah. And then at the end, all the college kids go to try to get some MAGA lovemaking on. And they go to these after parties.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Yeah. As somebody who still has some of my vestigial Republican positions, I think the government is too big. I don't know. I think that having a debt ceiling is not actually that bad of a thing. And so you're not really going to win me over on the argument that the Democrats should grab this great opportunity to get rid of the debt ceiling forever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I think that the debt is going to be a problem coming here in the next few years or decade. So I'm not for that. My strategic Republican brain is on here, which is
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
make trump and chip roy work this out all right this is their problem now not the democrats problem they shouldn't bail them out of this problem but i do think that there will be democrats who have earnest views that like the debt limit is a problem and that we should take this opportunity to get rid of something that is that is stupid and potentially harmful and damaging to the country i understand that perspective that i don't share no and i i
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Democrats have been together. Say this about the Democrats. Maybe too much agreeableness, frankly, has been part of the reason that's got them here. But the Democrats were lockstep on the fight before the holiday over the government funding. So I expect that they'll continue to be lockstep. Jimmy Carter died yesterday after a long time in hospice.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I feel like so long that I feel like we've already done a Bill and Tim tribute to Jimmy Carter at one point. He wanted to stay alive to vote for Kamala. Unfortunately, that did not yield a positive result in Georgia, but that was something that he, I think it said to his son. So I'm just wondering if you have any, I didn't get to meet Jimmy Carter. I assume you did working for Quayle.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And this one was hosted by James O'Keefe. He was going to do a dance performance. But unfortunately, I was unable to stay for that because of the... Gary Lake confrontation started to get a little awkward in there. So I don't have any video of the James O'Keefe dance number that he did, though I've seen some of it on the internet if people are very curious. And yeah, I go in there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Frankly, most people either don't know me or are curious about my presence. And I was having a pleasant conversation with somebody, as pleasant as it can be in that audience. I think it's interesting to actually hear them off of...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Yeah, right. Anyway, different era. Yeah. A good and decent man. This is a different time. And I wish we could go back to having those kinds of disagreements. Carter's heterodox nature on social policy is something for the Democrats to think about. You know, in the end, you say he gets kind of bogged down by the left or the perceived elements of his policies being too far left.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
But to get elected as a Southern governor, I mean, he took a number of views on cultural issues that were you know, moderate or more accommodating towards the conservative side. And that's maybe something that Democrats are going to have to learn from a little bit going forward, in addition to his personal decency.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
You tweeted, I do want to include this from Ronald Reagan, speaking to Jimmy Carter in 81, Mr. President, I want our fellow citizens to know how much you did to carry on this tradition. You've shown we are a united people pledged to maintaining a political system, which guarantees individual liberty to a greater degree than any other.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
social media right and like try to get understand what they really think about things and carrie just kind of blindsides me like she sees me before i see her and she comes sprinting up to me like i'm you know i'm i'm prey on the savannah and like immediately starts at first she had her arms wide and i thought she was gonna hug me like i don't know why i just i had a
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
No, I don't see it. I don't see it. You did a great interview with Eric Edelman. People don't know we have a foreign policy podcast called Shield of the Republic. And Eric Edelman is one of the co-hosts. He was a part of this bipartisan commission analyzing the national defense strategy. You did an interview with him on Crystal Conversations.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
We'll put a link in the show notes that I just had a chance to list yesterday. The interview is from, I guess, about a week and a half ago now. But it's very much forward looking at all the different threats. I don't know, maybe if you have a one or two sentence takeaway from that interview. And then we can direct people to a longer conversation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
The nuclear weapon point was super interesting. And I just direct folks to listen to the whole conversation. My additional takeaway was just for an unstable president, for a chaos president, he is coming into a much, much more chaotic world than he came into in 2017. Totally. Totally.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And so, you know, I just think that that is a little bit underappreciated in the conversation, like that there are a lot of tough decisions, a lot of like interest to balance that, you know, sure, like there's always risks of things to prop up. But there was much more stability globally in 2017 than there is right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I haven't seen a lot of statements. I haven't seen a lot of statements on Trump's TikTok flip-flop. No, I haven't either. We'll keep an eye. I've got a little alert for Tom Cotton's press office. We'll see if anything comes out of there. All right, Bill, I do need to recommend to folks, I assume you did not go see A Complete Unknown, Timmy Chalamet as Bob Dylan?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
It's had this feeling like maybe she wants to bury the hatchet. It was an incorrect Malcolm Gladwell blink assessment of what was about to happen. And instead of hugging me, when I go to kind of touch her on her shoulder, she immediately says, don't fucking touch me and start screaming at me. You're a piece of shit over for like a minute and then turns around.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Okay, great. I was worried that I was blinded. I love Timmy. Long time Timmy fan. And so I was always going to love it. Our in-house culture editor, Sonny Bunch, not big on Timmy. And so I was worried that I was going to be biased. you know, have my own, own perspective, but my straight guy buddies that like Bob Dylan were all positive on it or all blown away.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I maybe generationally, maybe not, you know, if you knew really knew, knew Bob Dylan, I don't know. I guess I would say maybe your perspective might be different, but I thought he was just phenomenal. And it was an Edward Norton as Pete Seeger was really great. I would highly recommend it. I had feelings at times during it. And my main takeaway is I wish it was two hours longer.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
It's like, it stops in like 65. Like you don't even get to, one on the tracks and some of the other later, later Dylan stuff. So maybe we can get a sequel out of it. I don't know. So there you go. That's my holiday recommendation to people. A complete unknown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And Timmy nails it. It's so close. He's so close. His voice is so close. He gets close. It's not the same, but it's different enough that it's in the it's in the ballpark.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Yeah, Bill Kristol, everybody else. We'll be back tomorrow. Our plans for this week, we've got a pod tomorrow. We're bringing in all the faves this week. So you've got a pod tomorrow. We'll have a pod Thursday. We're going to take off New Year's Day, one more day, for you guys to enjoy your family or football or hangover or whatever it is that you want to do on New Year's Day.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
But other than that, we're going to be back with probably more than a full schedule, probably a double schedule, as Bill points out. There's going to be a shit ton happening in January, so... We'll be here for you. Bill will be back next Monday. Enjoy the last somewhat peaceful week. And we'll be seeing you back here tomorrow.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And then turns back around and comes back for more. Starts calling me a piece of shit again. Says I'm an alcoholic. She points at my drink. It was the only drink I'd had that night. She seemed a little, I don't know, in this new regime with the lawsuits going around. I don't know what she was, but her eye was definitely not looking square at me. I guess I'll say that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
2025 Foreign Policy Outlook, Musk versus MAGA. But our guest has implored me that the place to start today is MAGA versus Miller. And it is, of course, Bill Crystal. Bill, I hope you had a wonderful Hanukkah. And I turn it over to you. What were you curious for more info about my encounter with our old friend Carrie Lake in Phoenix a couple weeks ago?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
she had a wandering eye and she was just looking up at me, attacked my outfit and said, I didn't care about fentanyl. Mothers said I was a piece of shit over and over again. And I like, I'm just, I was just trying to deescalate. I teased her a little bit about, I was like, you had this new great job. It's the director of voice of America. Shouldn't you be happy? Why are you so mad at me?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And yeah, out of nowhere, Laura Loomer emerges and says to carry like, yeah, he is a piece of shit, but like, you know, let's chill out a little bit. So there you go. Laura Loomer, the racist conspiracist, de-escalated the attack.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
This is how societies work. I mean, there were elements of inside of all of us are elements inside of Matt Gates that he kept inside because he thought it would help him to advance his career, to act more like Jeb Bush or his dad, Don Gates or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And, you know, he has been unleashed for his worst impulses have now been unleashed, you know, but it is important for people to, I think actually aren't quite as close to it, honestly, as we are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
You're correct that that is true, that there are people who shapeshifted or whose darker impulses were... you know, unleashed by the Trump era. I will say this though, that crowd though, it's like very mega, you know what I mean? Like there are select people, there's select people that have embraced it in various ways. I can, including frankly, Charlie Kirk, who runs the event too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
It was like a, basically a Sean Hannity college Republican, you know, that was just a hack. Like, so there's some people like that, including Charlie. Oh,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I said this article there's something we said Charlie gets some credit like it's hard to imagine a democratic group that four days before Christmas has 20,000 people flying somewhere to go gather for something like this like it's a real grassroots enthusiasm but the types of people that are drawn to it it is strange like I guess the other color that I didn't include in there is like one example is this guy that Washington Post did a big takeout on him he was the deep state marauder Ivan something he's wearing a shirt called retribution he has this black book I guess of people that should be targeted and
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I'd never heard of him. And I'm pretty deep in this world. Mainstream media outlet, like wrote a takeout on him about kind of how this is scary. Like there's this guy out there that has this list of people for the constitutional sheriffs and the incoming administration to target. And it is scary in a certain way, but then you meet him and it's like, this is an insane person.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Like this is a person that like Steve Bannon wouldn't want to hang out with. Like I was just standing there in a group and he comes up and starts ranting and About, like, really wild-eyed, crazy stuff. And then, like, he leaves, and I was like, who was that? And I was like, oh, you don't know Ivan, the deep state marauder? How old is he? He's probably 40. It's hard to tell.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
He didn't really look that great. Just like how we've said many times in the inverse, you can feel very comfortable at a freshman Democratic orientation these days, even if we disagree on the specifics of regulation policy. It's usually like high achieving, high sociability, normal people. It was a motley crew, to say the least. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Yeah, I think he's a pretty unique character. For people who do want to Google this deep state marauder, Ivan Raiklin, this is his last name, R-A-I-K-L-I-N. Bannon is savvy. A lot of these people are stupid, is really what it comes down to. A lot of them are stupid. And so Bannon, I think, in one way,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
you know you can't get into a man's head or soul and kind of who cares and who would want to be but there's a through line back to 2013 i think that he has a level of genuineness about certain aspects of the populism right about the economic populism but the nativism closing the borders
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
about going after the rich i mean see what you want about bannon bannon is like the only one out there at these events tucker i guess now too so maybe i'd throw them him in the same category who is like talking about we should tax the rich we should go after the billionaires we should go after the big bankers like that their populism is a little bit more a full spectrum right-wing populism in a way that's kind of scary right but it's also authentic it's not like the fake and so i do think that him
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Like there is this kind of puckish, you know, you know, troublemaking nature of like, sure, I'm going to go along with the Hunter Biden is a whatever Chinese agent or the voting machines. And so that's all very dangerous. I don't want to minimize it, but like, I do think that both are happening at the same time, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Like there is, I will go along with this fake performative populism in whatever I need to do to keep Trump happy while also actually having a real,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Yeah, correct. So I had interviewed Steve Bannon, and we talked about that a little bit. Both articles were put in the show notes if folks were taking a break. This was, I guess, the Friday before Christmas. And I interviewed him about kind of the future of MAGA, but the newsy bit that he talked about was...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
A little bit. I mean, so in two ways. So we spoke about this during the Bannon interview. And he was very blunt, just about like, he's been critical of Elon going back to 2018. I think there was a tweet going around about Elon bragging about how Bannon attacking him is the best PR he's gotten. like six years ago.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
So, so this is longstanding, you know, like this was simmering, you know, it was under the surface during the campaign, you know, they were allies of convenience, you know, during the campaign, Moscow was putting in 250 million or whatever he put in to the campaign, insane amount of money, you know, it weren't going to, fight somebody that's paying you, frankly, right? You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Hello and welcome to the Buller Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We are back. Hope everyone had a wonderful holiday or is still having a wonderful holiday. Much has happened since we talked last. We'll be getting to Timmy's Oscar-worthy Bob Dylan performance, of course, at the end. Jimmy Carter's passing the coming debt limit and speakership showdowns here next week.
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Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
You don't bite the hand that feeds you. And so this was always under the surface. So there was no tension at the convention. I will say this, though. On stage... I could sense, I think I kind of referenced this in the article, that this wasn't lasting. There was not a coherent worldview being presented from the stage besides Trump adoration. It was going speaker back to back.
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Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
It was like Ben Shapiro sounded like Paul Ryan 2012 if he thought that Donald Trump was a prophet as well, if he had those two views together. Then it was Bannon who was doing his... Medivist, quasi-fascist stuff. And then it was Ben Carson, who sounded like a Christian conservative. And then it was Tucker, who was even more insane than Bannon, sounded like a Marxist revolutionary. Don Jr.
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Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
went up on stage after Bannon, and Bannon was attacking Mike Johnson for not passing the... spending bill but don jr didn't understand bannon's critique and so he was attacking the other 15 people who opposed mike johnson there was no coherent message and then there was some of the tech guys patrick bett david some he's not really a tech guy but business guy there were some of these other new maga
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
people who spoke. I guess I didn't see Elon Thiel or Andreessen or Sachs who are kind of like the core of that group when I think of them. But the fact that there are these disparities, I sensed that. I wouldn't have expected a week later they would have been at each other's throat on Twitter.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I thought you were to be like, there were a million fights in the Reagan GOP.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
MAGA versus tech bro for people that don't really understand what Doge is. But Doge is a tech bro crypto coin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
From his perspective, Kash Patel is going to follow up on his plans to target the people that were in his book on the so-called enemies list. I think that's particularly newsworthy because there are a lot of senators, even John Fetterman, a lot of Republican senators acting like that's not going to happen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Trump seemed to side with Elon. So just really quick background for people who haven't paid as close attention. Essentially, this all started when Trump appointed an Indian-American immigrant to be an AI ambassador or czar.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Yeah, advisor. A low-key job. But this is a person who's been a big advocate for H-1B visas and all these sort of immigrant things. visas to bring workers, particularly to Silicon Valley, but also other industries. And this exploded in this like a paroxysm of like racism from the MAGA world, but also just people, they were feeling betrayed. Like, why is Trump bringing these people in?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Like being against visas such as this so that American workers can get jobs is at the core of what MAGA is. And then Elon and Vivek and all of them started defending this appointment. And saying you could reform H-1B, but we need to value immigration. And Vivek did some weird analogies about like Saved by the Bell, how Indians have a better culture in order to rationalize it. So anyway.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
That's a great question. We've invited Tom Tillis to come on the podcast. He's scared. So we'll see. Maybe Joe Pertikun can shake him down on the Hill. I don't expect him to say that because he's worried about a primary. I don't know. Maybe North Carolina, maybe the guy that was eating pizza in the back of the porn shop might primary him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And that's probably more, you know, kind of up the alley of Republican primary voters. We'll see. So Tom Tillis, indignant Tom Tillis. Yeah. It's an absurd hypothetical. You can't make it up. We got Susan Collins, his colleague in the Senate. In another story over the weekend, Trump fired 12, I believe, the inspectors general.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And he did not provide the 30-day notice that you're required to by law. I'd like to talk about that story more broadly. But here in the Republican gullibility section, here's Susan Collins' quote on this. I don't understand why one would fire individuals whose mission is to root out waste, fraud, and abuse. So this leaves a gap in what I know is a priority for President Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
You have two thoughts on this. One on the Susan Collins point, just briefly. The idea that it is a priority for President Trump to root out fraud... It's just, you called it beyond farcical. It flies in the face of everything that we know about Donald Trump. Donald Trump's whole career has been premised on leveraging fraud successfully. He lied about how much money he was worth in businesses.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
The apprentice is a farce. All of it, Trump water, Trump air. Trump's whole life has been a fraud. Trump loves fraud. What are you talking about? It's a priority for Donald Trump to root out fraud. That shows you know nothing about Donald Trump. It's like you were a baby who was just born yesterday and played straight into the United States Senate. The whole thing is just ridiculous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
The guy ran a fake university. You think it's a priority for him to root out fraud? What are you talking about, Susan Collins? Anyway, but as far as the inspectors general, there's a longer line of perniciousness here for me also.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
But that, you know, I guess everybody's decided not to care about because we're just going to not think about any long term damage that Donald Trump could potentially do if you're a Trump enabler. But like, what exactly is the rationale if a Democrat ever gets back in the White House? What exactly is the rationale for them to bring back Inspector General? Right.
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Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I mean, like no president wants an inspector's general to your point. Like was the was the secretary of education ever excited to have a meeting with their inspector general? Nobody like the inspector general are there to represent the people and the interests of the people to make sure that our money is not being wasted or that there's not other illegality happening. Right.
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Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
that any other coverups that help, you know, the administration, you know, not be accountable for, you know, actions that are harmful to the citizenry. Like that is the whole point of the inspector general. So if they just blanket fire everybody that to me, it's like, well, okay. Our inspector general over now forever. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I love that he's at the Ludwig Boltzmann Institute for Research on the Consequences of War. That's a great quote. Great title. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Because who is going to be the president that's like, you know what, I really want to bring these guys back.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
But if they were, you pointed this out, they have opportunities to do things here. You wrote on social media over the weekend, Grassley also claims to be upset about this, Collins. The most straightforward pushback to these firings would be the Senate reasserting their power.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And McConnell, Grassley, Ernst, Collins, and Murkowski saying they won't vote to confirm nominees until they're satisfied there'll be oversight in the agencies. They could do that. They could. But are you holding your breath? I'm not. On the gullible Republicans list. So we have Tom Tillis, Susan Collins. I also need to shout out Congresswoman Maria Salazar down in Miami.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
She put out a very stern statement this morning. I'd like to read to you. She is urging Homeland Security. to protect, all caps, Cubans awaiting legal status adjustment through the Cuban Adjustment Act, and we must also protect the Venezuelans and Nicaraguans without a criminal record going through the asylum process. Don't penalize them for Biden's screw-ups.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Do I've got some bad news for you, Maria Salazar? These people don't it wasn't even that they weren't taking Trump literally or seriously. They weren't listening to Donald Trump at all. Apparently, like the idea that Stephen Miller is planning an immigration regime that has very lenient asylum processes for nonviolent Venezuelans or Nicaraguans. is ridiculous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
They've completely shut down the CBV1 app. They're trying to get asylum down to zero. That is what they're trying to do. There was a whole kerfuffle during the campaign, Maria might not have heard, about the Haitians and those that were here on temporary protected status. This administration doesn't plan on taking care of those people. So I just don't know what they thought that they were getting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I don't think that they're pretending. I don't know. I think that this is cope and how you survive in a rising authoritarian world. Because, you know, there was an off the record briefing. I discussed this with Sam on the pod last week that he attended with a Republican senator, I believe, with the terms of that conversation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And the person seemed to not think Trump was going to do any of the bad things. You know, you keep adding, it's like, anytime it's like, well, wait, well, what about the mass deportations? Wait, what about the violent pardons? What about this? It's like, well, no, all of that stuff, no. You know, we're just going to, we're just going to get the tax cuts and doge and, you know, no wars.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I do think that they have convinced themselves, but we'll continue to monitor Global Republican Hour. It's another news this morning I want to talk about. There's an executive order Trump signed banning trans service members. I do think that there is something particularly gross about a draft dodger banning people who had volunteered for service.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
The executive order, I don't know if it's the same one or a separate one, also reinstates service members that were kicked out for not taking vaccines that were required by the military. So we're just doing straight political... effort to kick people out of the military if they're trans, bring people back who, you know, whatever, disobeyed orders. I'm open to that being something that is smart.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I never served in the military. I kind of will defer to Hertling and others on whether it is smart to reinstate those folks. It's possible, but it is pretty galling to do so at the same time that you're kicking people out who haven't done anything wrong and that you're doing so to appease like, racist Twitter users and Reddit posters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Like, we're going to take keyboard warriors and appease them, and we're going to kick out people that volunteered to serve in the country because they're transgender. That's pretty gross.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Yeah, a lot of this stuff is pretty hackneyed, so I think it remains to be seen. But it's pretty depressing, I will say. Have you ever wanted to learn more about wine but can't figure out where to start? Or when you do start, it just feels like too much? Our next partner, Naked Wines, has changed the game for learning about wine without having to take a whole class about it.
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Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
This podcast is sponsored by Naked Wines. It's 2025. Getting naked and drinking wine seems about as good an idea as anything else. Naked Wines is a service that directly connects you with the world's finest independent winemakers so you can get award-winning wine delivered straight to your door.
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Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Use the bulwark for the code and password at nakedwines.com and get their incredible deal of six bottles for just $39.99. I got a round of Naked Wines sent to the house the other day. The fun part for me was you're getting to try out, you know, some different grapes, different varietals, things. I'm making some pasta for dinner. Try a little red, have one glass, see how you like it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
It's a little something to do. We all need little joys in our life, you know, little lane, yep. And the Naked Wines has been one for me. I've got four more bottles sitting down there, excited to try them all out. How do they do it? Naked Wines connects winemakers and wine drinkers directly, allowing for vineyard-to-your-door delivery at up to 60% off what you'd pay in the store.
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Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
By cutting out the traditional retail middleman costs and markups, winemakers can pass those savings on to you without skimping on quality. Now is the time to join the Naked Wines community. Head to nakedwines.com slash the bulwark. Click enter voucher and put in my code the bulwark for both the code and password for six bottles of wine for just $39.99 with shipping included.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
That's $100 off your first six bottles at nakedwines.com slash the bulwark and use the code and password the bulwark for six bottles of wine for $39.99. I'm trying to ban... I'm not going to be able to ban it. I'm trying to limit from the podcast the whole bit. But what about the price of eggs going up? Because it's already a little cliche and all this. But it is telling.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
You know, here we are in week two. And the tangible actions that they have really been focused on are all of the culture war actions. Right? Like, for the first two weeks, they have... betrayed the notion of the Wall Street Journal types who are like, well, we're really going to focus on economic issues and economic growth. Maybe all that stuff's coming.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I guess they did do the announcement about the investment in AI, which then Elon Musk's shadow president said was fake immediately afterwards. But they're really dialing in on this. I think the contract is particularly sharp this morning because as we're taping this, it looks like stocks are down significantly. We had this Chinese AI application, DeepSeek, that launched, and it appears to be
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
a strong competitor, if not superior, to ChatGPT and the American AI apps. You can't trust anything that the Chinese government says, but apparently it was created in about a year more cheaply than the amount of money that we're investing in these apps. So it has had a negative impact across all the big tech stocks that have been pumping up the market.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
We're about to enter into some very serious times. And I think that the trans service member ban this morning, just in addition to being straight bigotry, just like the lack of focus on the serious matters before us, is in pretty stark relief this morning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Yeah, the Colombian trade war thing is also telling just kind of about How they plan to do propaganda in the second Trump term. This all happens in 24 hours. Pedro sends back the deportation flight because it was a military plane with people in shackles. He had accepted deportation flights under Biden. Trump then threatens the tariffs. Pedro threatens them back.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
His statement, people should go read. It is so bizarre. And it's so interesting. It's so un-American. And just like the tone of it, he like name checks Walt Whitman and Paul Simon. And it's a journey, the reciprocal tariff statement. I'll put it in the show notes for people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
But then behind the scenes, there's essentially an agreement, you know, as you said, like we're back to the status quo, like they'll accept the deportation flights, just not, you know, in the way that the Trump regime had wanted to do it. And Trump like declares victory, right? Like, oh, look, the tariff threat really worked. And all the MAGA media accounts are pushing that this was a victory.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
That is a thing that's going to be kind of hard to combat. He is going to be very good at creating for his people the sense that these victories have been achieved when nothing actually happened. And he really just put us at risk, honestly. And he's created additional risk and additional tension with an ally and got nothing out of it. But they're going to spin these things as propaganda victories.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
You wrote about the Columbia thing that there's a pretty clear pattern that Trump's picking fights with allies and signaling weakness to dictatorial adversaries right out of the box. And I guess that we did see this in the first term, you know, with him picking fights with Merkel and all that. The difference to me seems like I think they're ready to commit like capricious actions.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
attacks, you know, economically or otherwise, on our allies, and almost have like an itchy trigger finger to do so this time, which is a little different than the mean tweets.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And I also think, just like think about from an incentive structure standpoint, I was reading the Patriot Statement. And to me, it's just about going forward. Trump is not popular anywhere except for here and a handful of other countries, mostly with autocratic leaders. He's not popular in the countries with our democratic allies, either to the south of us or in Europe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And so if you're one of these leaders... I know that there'll be one side of the coin that says, well, Trump can bully them because they need America, and they need American products, and it helps their economy, and that's all true. But if you just have a couple of these leaders that are themselves just looking at the pure... political side of it, the optics, I get helps them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And unless there's actual pain, you know, up until the point that there's actual economic pain in the country, it helps them politically to be seen as a person standing up to Trump, right? It butchers them up a little bit domestically, he's not popular, makes you seem strong. And so like Petra statement was was pretty,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
strident and shine balance has been in mexico as well it's a bit of a powder keg like i think that this idea that all these guys are going to just bend over like like the republican senators have i think is incorrect and again it misunderstands the incentive structure of some of these leaders
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
You know, Frum made this point about Colombia that I think is worth sharing because there's always so much negativity about, oh, things are so terrible. This is why we tend to, the American people had to turn to Trump because of all of the crises in this country over the past two decades. But as Frum points out,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Rescuing Colombia from civil war, redirecting its economy from drugs to lawful commerce was a supreme achievement of the Bush and Obama administrations. The U.S.-Colombia free trade agreement was negotiated by Bush, signed by Obama, and has served both countries well. Now what? That's not right. We're blowing this up for what? Over nothing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Because Donald Trump wants to play tough guy in some reality TV show? It's preposterous. But it does feel like there's also a lack of particularly this time around Trump 2.0, a lack of desire for people to say things like from the saying this blatantly, like, no, actually, we have done some good things, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Like everybody has to just accept as basis that, well, you know, our institutions are so broken. And that's why we turned to Trump. You know what I mean? It does feel like there is a dearth of people making the case for the rules based order that got us here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I want to finish with the latest from Ukraine and Russia. We don't have t-shirts on the website, Bill, that say Bill and Tim are always right, because I have humility. And we've had some misses. Some of our colleagues do have those t-shirts if people want to invest in that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
But one thing that you were early on, and we've been talking about almost every week, is that there was almost a unified feeling, I think, on the right and the left, that if Trump won... that there was some backroom deal happening with Putin and that there would be a cessation of violence, and that they'd cut some sort of deal, and there'd be a friendly to Putin deal, and then...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
You know, who knows? Some things might change in a couple of years, but like that would come to pass. And you were skeptical of that. A couple of other people I've had on the pod. Michael Weiss was skeptical of that. And we had the head of the Council for Foreign and Defense Policy for Russia, Sergei Karganov, over the weekend, a prominent advisor to Lavrov and Putin, a serious advisor to them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
saying this, Russia must escalate in 2025 to force our American enemy to crawl away so Russia can finish off the Europeans. That's A, pretty alarming, and B, kind of in line with what we have been expecting, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I think lower than second-tier. Charles Kushner, straight out of jail, is who we sent.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Kind of subtle Russian mockery at times that maybe goes over Trump's head. Yeah, that could be. You know, instead of the brat-boresh mockery that Trump likes to give.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Yeah, and I think that there's some TBDs. I don't think that there are any cases where he has clearly gone the moderating direction, right? We haven't seen it yet on tariffs. We haven't really seen it yet on immigration. We're a little bit in the fog of war side on that right now. So I think that is to be determined.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
A lot of this damaging stuff, I don't have longer conversations this week about what's happening with NIH and funding. of, you know, kind of health studies, you know, all that stuff's temporary. So, you know, it's kind of like, well, let's see what happens in April. So there are opportunities, I guess, for him to moderate in various ways still, but we haven't seen it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Yeah. One last thing on just what you said on the Ukraine side to close the loop on that. I agree with you. Sure. If there are Republican security types who are in Trump's orbit who want to try to appeal to him and make the argument that it would be politically beneficial for him to be supportive of Ukraine, I'll take it. Whatever. That's fine. I do think it is also just wrong.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
It's gullible and incorrect. If you're doing it knowing this and hoping that you can get a good result, that's a noble effort. You should do that. They should continue to do that. But just objectively...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
spending time with you know going at that tp usa event at america fest like like watching and consuming you know kind of mega media like the not supporting ukraine is just like the anti among that base right now like among things that they care about like that is about at the top of the list and and it gets tied into everything right like in the fires it's like oh we're only spending x on the fires but we're giving y to ukraine i mean like
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
They're just trashing the support from Ukraine just across the board on any mega platform. It's even like one inch to the mega side of Fox. You know, I mean, I think that he is going to feel very handcuffed by that and like obligated to follow through on his plans to further abandon the Ukrainians. I mean, maybe the...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Senate can do things, maybe there are other ways to kind of delay all that, but I just think that's the state of affairs.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I agree. Well, pretty disheartening day across the board there, maybe by- I don't know. Who knows? One of these Mondays? Are you cheered up at least by the football results? I'm not cheered up by the football at all. It's horrible. It's like, you know, I mean, it's like Trump versus DeSantis in the Super Bowl down here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
They were division rivals of the Broncos. Oh, okay. Well, you have a legit. But why are people so anti-Kansas City? I just think they're sick of it. People are sick of it. And also just all the, and the attempted Taylor and Travis getting thrown into people's faces. I was watching some sports podcast and there was like a non, it was a non political sports podcast.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And the guy's like, I don't want to hear about Elon Musk or Travis Kelsey or Taylor Swift again. Like they're the only three people anybody talks about. And so I think that there's a little bit of that. And well, for anybody who's worried about all of these topics we went over and all of the negative affairs that are plaguing our nation, the minority leader, the democratic leader in the house, uh,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
had these words of solace. Presidents come and presidents go. Through it all, God is still on the throne. So there's that. Maybe that'll make some folks feel better. I've got this. I do have one other thing, Bill. I do have one good thing that I can leave people with. Timmy Chalamet's Bob Dylan covers on Saturday Night Live. He does three deep cuts. That was amazing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
That is what brings me solace. And so I'll take people out with one of Timmy's favorite Bob Dylan tracks. And hope you all enjoy that. Bill's gone next Monday on a little holiday. We'll see him in two weeks. Everybody else will be back here tomorrow. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Yeah. We are gathering today, as you note in the morning newsletter, on Holocaust Remembrance Day, so I think it's probably worth starting there. Shadow President Elon Musk zoomed in to a conference of the AFD. which is the German far-right party. At that gathering, he said he thinks that there's too much focused on past guilt, and we need to move beyond that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Yeah, and it is a good parallel, as you're saying, to what is kind of happening in America, right, with the woke lash about the the Elon message about, you know, not remembering so deeply all the stuff we had over the weekend that the as part of the DEI initiatives, the Air Force said that they're going to stop teaching about the Tuskegee Airmen. there's mass outrage about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And they might be, you know, reinstating that, that lesson, but like the idea is there, the principle of let's try to bury, you know, some of the, some of the more unpleasant, I guess, Tuskegee Airmen isn't, isn't an unpleasant story. It's only an unpleasant story in the sense that at the time they're being discriminated against back home, they didn't have equal rights.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
They're not naming military bases in Germany after Nazi generals? Is that not happening over there? We're bringing it back. We're bringing back the Confederate general naming. We needed to make sure that all of the great Confederates are honored in this country. That is what America first patriots do, is honor the traitors.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
All right, I gave you the floor to rant about the mistreatment of the Jewish people by Elon Musk. I've got some Catholic complaints. J.D. Vance was on Face the Nation over the weekend. I want to hear him talking about the Catholic Church.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
This fucking guy has been a Catholic for like two seconds and he converts to the church. He's like, you know, I've got some complaints, all right? You're caring a little bit too much about the indigent and the poor. We need to focus on the real reasons why I became a Catholic, the real Catholic stuff, making people feel guilty.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
anti-trans sentiment what what he didn't even have to do it he had answered the question which is frankly maybe we'll see how these guys uh execute their their immigration raids i'm not so confident they're going to be very judicious but maybe they just have changed the rule to to be able to go into a church because there's some violent criminal they want and that's the only way
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
they know how to get the person. Who knows if that's going to happen, but that is a fair dodge as a politician.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Then on top of that, he's got to be like, I'm just, as somebody who's been a Catholic since last Tuesday, I am just heartbroken that these bishops that gave their life to the church care at all about the poor immigrants that we're planning on putting on planes and shackles back to their country. Any other thoughts on that, Bill? Well, I leave the Catholics to you, and you leave the Jews to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
You had a little meditation on this for Holocaust Remembrance Day today. I'd like for you to share your thoughts on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Thank you, Drill. It can't be anti-Catholic bigotry because he became a Catholic. It's kind of like in Seinfeld where the guy becomes a dentist for the jokes. Does he become a dentist for the jokes or become a Jew for the jokes? I forget the story. You are an anti-dentite. It's one of those situations, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I've become a Catholic so that I can slander the Catholics and do so with impunity without people calling me a bigot. So there's our vice president. Unfortunately, I have one more clip from him I'd like to play. He was asked about the pardons. You might remember. It was only like two weeks ago. It was like one week after he became a Catholic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
He was on TV and he said that obviously, obviously it was already used, that they would not be pardoning people that violently attacked the police. Obviously that was wrong. And his daddy made a different decision a couple of days later. Here's JD addressing that with CBS Face Nation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I keep waiting for the evidence of the Black Lives Matter protesters that attacked cops and killed people and weren't prosecuted for that. This keeps coming up in these interviews, but I never actually they never actually say the name of a person who got off. So I'm still waiting to hear that. But, you know, Bill, the pardon power isn't for people. That's perfect. You know, so beating a cop.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It's Monday, January 27th. Trump's been president again for about a week now. Feels longer. And I'm here today with Bill Kristol.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
There are like eight levels of dishonesty advances. Speaking of which, on this topic, I've got a segment. We don't have theme music for it yet. I don't know if it's going to be a permanent segment. But over the weekend, I was struck by something. It was in addition to J.D. I was talking about how I was talking to about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I was like, I don't understand why I knew that Trump was going to pardon the violent cop beaters, but his own vice president didn't. These guys have to kind of suspend disbelief about the nature of Donald Trump in order to continue to exist. It's something we saw the first time around, but we're really seeing it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
in spades this time and so i've got three examples of gullible republicans uh who seem to have been fooled by the nature of the man that they've made the president and the first one is also on this topic of january 6th tom tillis senator from north carolina you can just hear the indignation in his voice when we play this he is indignant that people are asking pam bondy
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
to respond to a hypothetical about the possibility that Donald Trump might pardon a violent protester. This was just a few days before Donald Trump did pardon the violent protesters. Let's listen to indignant Tom Tillis.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
An absurd and unfair hypothetical. Never would Donald Trump pardon somebody that attacked a cop, Tom Tillis says, two days before Donald Trump. He pardons the cop eaters. Exactly what Tillis said he wouldn't do. What do you think, Bill? What's happening in this man's brain? And never would he appoint to be director of the FBI.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Ich unterstütze nicht Tesla-Vandalismus, aber wenn wir anfangen... Ich nicht.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Wenn ich das nicht mache, werde ich... Oh mein Gott, ich werde nicht... Ich werde in ca. 20 Minuten von hier rausgeholt werden. Als... Als... Als... Als... Als... Als... Als... Als... Als... Als... Als...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
People are often surprised to learn that I'm the cook in the house. I understand why you'd be surprised to learn. I don't maybe give off chef vibes. I'm also grinding out 100 gazillion hours of content a week. So, you know, it's like, how does that happen? It's a great question. Well, DoorDash sometimes. They're not the sponsor today. But when I do cook, you know, which is on occasion.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
I hadn't really updated my pots and pans in a while. I'm not an iron chef over here. I'm not committed to the art of the cooking. It's a little bit more getting down to brass tacks. And so I was super excited when we got a new sponsor today. Hexclad sent me a couple of pots and pans that are unbelievably better than the shit that I had bought at Macy's in 2009 and never gotten rid of.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Huge upgrade for me. Und es ist auch eine, die Sie schauen sollten. Hexclad ist eine Chance, Ihr Küchen-Game zu leveln. Es ist wie dein Lieblings-Cast-Iron-Skillet hatte ein Baby mit einem High-Tech-Spaceship. Bis zum nächsten Mal. Tschüss. Hexclad Pans truly check every single box when it comes to picking up your cookware.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Ich weiß nicht die Geschichte. Vielleicht ist das eine Westside-Story-Situation und er ist ein Gay-Gang-Mitglied. Vielleicht ist er wie Derek Farrell aus dem Film Blow, der Haarstylist, der Johnny Depp mit Kokain aus Kolumbien helfen konnte. Irgendwas in diesem Weltraum ist möglich. Aber wenn man sich diese Bilder anschaut...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
They're metal utensil safe, dishwasher safe and oven safe up to 500 degrees. They're induction ready and even have a stay cool handle so you can saute with ease. I saute from time to time. So it's time to leave behind the delivery fees and that scratched up pan you've been clinging to since college. This year, cook like a pro.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
For a limited time only, our listeners get 10% off your order with our exclusive link. Head to hexclad.com slash thebulwark. Support our show and check them out at hexclad.com slash thebulwark. Make sure to let them know we sent you. Bon appetit. Let's eat with Hexclad's revolutionary cookware. Alright, I want to move on to what is going on in our negotiations with Russia.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
It's one cheery topic after another up here. Yeah, things are going great over there. I really want to dial in on Steve Witkoff. You know, there's so many ridiculous characters in this administration, it's hard to keep track of all of them. And I feel like Steve's falling a little under the radar, so we're going to play a Steve Witkoff-related game here in a second.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
But before we do that, what's your biggest picture on the state of play with regards to the negotiations?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Here's why he's not upset. So, our chief negotiator, which is, by the way, not the Secretary of State, not the President, not even the original person, Keith Kellogg, who is a military veteran, who had been, you know, set to be the envoy for this. No, instead it's Steve Witkoff, a real estate guy from New York, whose kids are in a crypto scam with the Trump kids.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
So that's, he's our point man in Amsterdam. He was on Tucker Carlson's show, which is naturally what you do after a big interview. And usually at this point on the podcast I would play you a clip, but we don't have that ability here, so I'm going to do a dramatic reading. Tucker. What did you think of Putin? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Wittkopf. I liked him, man. Tucker. Yep, Wittkopf.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Es scheint, dass dieser Mann getötet wird und dass er rechtlich von der Kommunismus fliegt, von der Oppression fliegt und in ein Land kommt, das durch seine Geschichte ein Becken für Menschen wie ihn im ganzen Weltraum war, die von der Oppression fliehen. Und der Fakt, dass wir diejenigen sind, die ihn zu diesem Hellschwein senden, ohne einen due process, ist horrend.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
I thought he was straight up with me. First of all, I thought it was gracious of him to accept me. Tucker. It takes balls to say that. Wittkopf. Yeah, I mean, if you don't, you know, in our country, if you don't act like a lemming and just walk off a cliff like everybody else, then, you know, you get attacked. So that's the first part. I'm going to fast forward. Do you have any thoughts on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
You're on such a roll, I feel like. Wittkopf. He told me a story, Tucker, about how when the president was shot, he went to his local church and he met with his priest and he prayed for the president. Not because he was the president of the United States or could become the president of the United States, but because he had a friendship with him. And he was praying for his friend.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
I mean, can you imagine sitting there, listening to these kinds of conversations? And I came home and delivered that message to our president. And I delivered a painting that was given to the president by the greatest Russian artist ever. And the president was clearly touched by it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Ein russischer Künstler? Könnt ihr euch das vorstellen? Nein, ich konnte mir das nicht vorstellen. Was ist das? Wo bin ich? Putin hat in die Kirche gegangen? Putin steuert Kinder und tötet Menschen indiskriminierend. Wir müssen uns so schuldig fühlen, dass Putin in seine russische Orthodox-Kirche gegangen ist?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
and was praying deeply for Donald Trump because he cares about his soul and that Donald Trump was genuinely touched by this. Has Donald Trump been genuinely touched by anything in his life? How fucking stupid is this person? He is the point man. Okay. It goes on. Tucker. Tucker to Witkoff. Do you think the Russians want to march across Europe? Witkoff. 100% not. Hahaha. Why would they want that?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Hey, everybody. We had a awesome sold-out event in Arizona on Saturday, where I interviewed Bill Kristol, which we're going to use for the Monday podcast today. We've got some plans for a bunch more events coming up later this year. Hopefully bigger venues. We appreciate you all want to come out to see us. I'm very much looking forward to that, so stay tuned for that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
I wouldn't want those countries. Like, why would they? Witkow, first of all, why would they want to absorb Ukraine? They don't want to. What? Sie haben versucht! Und dann geht Wyckoff weiter, um zu sprechen, wie die großen Haltpunkte diese fünf Territorien sind, aber er kann ihre Namen nicht erinnern. Er ist die Person, die sie wollen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Und er sagt, diese russischen Territorien sind die einzigen, die sie wollen. Und es ist so, als ob sie Kiew bombieren würden. Sie bombieren Kiew gerade. Sie bombierten Kiew letzte Nacht. Was... Does he even believe it? I think there's some evidence he believes it when we get to the next segment of the interview. But what do you make of all this?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Und wenn er wirklich Derek ist, dann muss die Regierung es fucking beweisen. Und Tom Homan war am Sonntagsschau dieses Wochenende, basically saying, you just gotta trust, I trust our guys, I trust our guys. If they say he's trying to Aragua, he's trying to Aragua. And I'm sorry, that's not good enough for me. That's not how this works. in a free country.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Well, here's what makes me think he believes it. Because he does the same thing when it comes to our friends in Qatar. In case you're not familiar, Qatar has been sponsoring Hamas financially and also protecting the Hamas leaders that are hiding in Qatar. Well, Witkoff, because we can't find anybody else, is also the point person for the negotiations with Qatar and Hamas in Israel.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
And so he brings up this and says to Tucker, Witkoff and Sheikh Mohammed, the Prime Minister of Qatar, He's a good man. He's really Tucker. He certainly is. He's a special guy. He really is. And he cares. And I spent a lot of time with him and broken bread with him. And he's just a good, decent human being who wants what's best for his people.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Weren't all our friends, the neocons, really upset about the Biden administration's lack of outrage towards Hamas? This guy is just out there sucking off the guy that's funding Hamas. Und Putin. He's our point man. How do you feel about this? You're Jewish. These are your people, not mine.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Never worked for Tucker. We're going to get to your evolution last. Actually, we've got one more sad story first. I just kind of want to let you kick off on Paul Weiss. I had George Conway yesterday. We had a conversation. Actually, I've never seen George that mad, I don't think, actually. I mean, he had smoke coming out of his ears. He was so fired up. I think, again, it's kind of like me...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
talking about the Republican strategists that I know who I know know better, like the people that you, you know, the family feuds are the most personal, and so Georgia knows these guys, Paul Weiss, and for people who missed it, this law firm that was being targeted by Trump, you know, the head of it basically goes to the White House, grovels to Trump, says that we'll do 40 million in pro bono services for like...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
And so I don't usually ask you guys to do this because there's just so much outrage out there. For whatever reason, I think that some democratic politicians are scared to speak out about immigration because they think it's a loser. And I think that's wrong on all counts, politically, ethically, morally. And so I know a lot of you guys live in blue states.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Trump-Administration-Interests. So, we'll see what that entails. Boy, I mean, it's a pretty astonishing capitulation. So, I don't know, do you have two minutes on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
And even if you live in red states, you can do this. I'd ask you to call your senators and ask them to publicly demand that DHS and the State Department die Dokumentation für ihre Rationalisierung für die Entfernung dieser Individuen in den San Salvador Hellscape. Die Nummer ist 202-224-3121. Es ist einfach googlable.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Ich denke, es gehört auch zu unserem ersten Thema zu, welches ist, dass Gehör kontagiert ist. Und deshalb ist es wert, Trump auf jedem Grund zu kämpfen, nicht Spots zu wählen. Denn wenn sie Verletzungen in bestimmten Bereichen haben, dann könnte das anderen Bereichen die Hintergründe geben, um zu sagen, warte mal, ich muss nicht Angst vor diesen Leuten haben, ich muss das nicht tun. So, anyway.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Ich habe diesen Text gestern von einem Freund bekommen. Erinnere dich an das, was Bill Kristol 2003 gezeigt hat. Und dann gab es einen Tweet, den ich gesehen habe, der sagte, wie beginnt man überhaupt, das jemandem in 2004 zu erklären? Der gleiche Tweet, den diese Jungs beide darüber sprechen, ist von diesem Ding, der Pop-Bass.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Sie schrieb, Bernie Sanders und AOCs kämpfen Oligarchie-Rallye in Denver am Freitagabend, hatten über 34.000 Leute. Der Quote-Tweet von Pop-Bass, es ist interessant, dass Bill Kristol Pop-Bass folgt, ist Bill Kristol mit drei Klatschen-Hands-Emojis. Vielen Dank.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Die Repräsentanten müssen wissen, dass die Leute verdammt interessiert sind, dass wir tatsächlich immer noch über Amerika interessiert sind. as a country that welcomes the oppressed throughout the world, that we care about human rights. I think a lot of them, because of the election of Trump for the second time, rightfully think that people don't care.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
We need to understand that they need to be made to care about this. So I'd ask you to do that. Call your senators today. It will make a difference. It will matter if they start hearing from people about this, particularly the Democratic senators. I think they will be less scared zu sprechen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Untertitelung. BR 2018 Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020 Untertitelung. BR 2018 Vielen Dank.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Aber auch die Republikaner, ich muss Ihnen sagen, Marco Rubio, es gibt einen tollen, tollen Sargent-Artikel heute Morgen, Marco Rubio war der Punktperson auf fast alle der meisten noxiosen Scheiße von dieser Administration bis jetzt. Und, du weißt, es gibt Leute in den kubanischen und venezuelischen Gemeinschaften, die auf ihn einfließen können.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Und der Fakt, dass Donald Trump in einer Interview das auf Marco ausgelöst hat und gesagt hat, wenn er gefragt wurde, was das Alien-Enemies-Akt ist, hat er gesagt, dass er es nicht eingestellt hat, was sehr seltsam ist. Ich denke, es gibt mehr Berichte darüber, aber er hat gesagt, dass das alles etwas war, was das Staat war. Also, ich meine, Trump hat das auf Marco ausgelöst.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Marcos Boss hat gesagt, dass er der Punktmann für diese... Wenn es etwas anderes ist, was Sie tun wollen, Lindsay works for Immigrant Defenders. You can go to immdef.org and support the work of their lawyers. The lead lawyers on the Alien Enemies Act case are at the ACLU. So if you want to support them, we'll put these links in the bio, but go to the ACLU's Immigrants Rights page.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Ich hoffe, Sie haben es genossen. Ich und Bill hatten ein bisschen Spaß in Arizona. Ein paar dunkle Themen, wie Sie sehen, am Anfang. Aber wir hatten auch ein paar Lachen. Ich hoffe, Sie haben es genossen. Wir sind morgen wieder hier, mit einem alten Freund des Pods. Wir sehen uns dann. Hey, Leute, was geht? Schön, in Arizona zu sein. Ich suche Carrie Lake in jeder Runde.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Um sicherzustellen, dass sie nicht nach mir kommt. Tim wird nicht an der Rezeption bleiben, weil sie eine private Sache mit Carrie Lake hat.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Für die, die den Bullerik-Podcast hören, werden Bill und ich am Montag zusammen. Wir sind... Hallo und willkommen zu dem Bullard-Podcast. Ich bin euer Host Tim Miller, live hier in Phoenix, Arizona mit Bill Kristol. Also, Bill und ich reden darüber, was wir zu diskutieren haben.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
But up next on this podcast, Bill and I spoke a lot about this Time Magazine article by Philip Holsinger. He's a photojournalist actually from Nashville, but he's been on the ground in San Salvador working on a book and he got unbelievable access to these flights of Venezuelans that we've been sending to that San Salvador hellscape with no due process.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Also, du hasst Arizona nicht so, wie Leute in anderen Staaten die anderen Schulen hassen oder was auch immer? Lass uns kämpfen!
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
I will be. The rest of America will be rooting for you guys.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Alright, we could do a little Mike Bibby talk or something, but I guess we should probably move on. We'll end with some happy talk, because we're starting really dark. I don't know if anybody has seen a story from Time Magazine that just came out about one hour ago. It's about the most enraging shit I've ever seen, actually. Bill, have you had a chance to take a look at it?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
I'm going to read one little bit for you guys, so you can understand why my blood is about to boil. The intake began with slaps. One young man sobbed when a guard pushed him to the floor. He said, I'm not a gang member, I'm gay, I'm a barber. I believed him, but maybe it's only because he didn't look like what I had expected. He wasn't a tattooed monster.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Inside the intake room, a sea of trustees descended on the man with electric shavers, stripping heads of hair with haste. The guy who claimed to be a barber began to whimper, folding his hands in prayer as his hair fell. He was slapped. The man asked for his mother, then buried his face in chained hands and cried as he was slapped again. Wir machen diese Arschlöcher. Das sind wir.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Das ist die Vereinigten Staaten, die das tun. Dieser Mann, ich weiß nichts über ihn. Wir wissen es nicht, weil er keinen Führungsprozess hatte. Wir wissen nicht wirklich, was die Wahrheit ist. Sein Arbeiter, den wir auf unserer YouTube-Page interviewt haben, Sam Stein, und sie ist stolz darauf, dass er kein Mitglied von Trendo Agua ist.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Adrian Carrasquillo, der für uns schreibt, hat es sehr effektiv geschrieben, mit Beispielen von vergangenen Fällen, z.B. von der ersten Trump-Administration, wo wir die Tätowierungen von Menschen misserlebt haben. Das wichtigste Beispiel, das er mir gegeben hat, war, von einem Mann, der eine Tätowier-Lyrics hatte, die tatsächlich von einem Pro-Trump-Reggaeton-Artist waren.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Der Fakt, dass das existiert, ist seltsam. Aber es war wie, ich weiß nicht, es war wie ein Wort anders, als das Slogan der Gang war. Und so wurde der Mann über es verhaftet. Und, weißt du, ich habe einfach... Das ist das, worüber wir absolut sprechen müssen und überraschen und protestieren müssen. Wir können das nicht machen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Das Artikel wurde direkt vor dem Anstieg veröffentlicht. Wir beginnen mit dem Thema, aber seitdem gibt es noch einen anderen speziellen Fall, den ich vornehmen möchte. Das ist ein gayer Venezuelaner, ein Barber, ein Make-up-Artist namens Andree.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Und Bill, ich bin interessiert in deiner Meinung darauf, aber ich glaube, es gibt eine zu süße Ansicht von einigen in der demokratischen Bewegung, Never Trumpers, pro-demokratisch, auf der ganzen Bühne. Immigration is a loser. We can't talk about immigration. Trump won a mandate on this. People support the deportations. People support the wall. And I guess my view on this is I don't fucking care.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
I do not care. We are how many days? Where's the sign? We are 590 days away from an election. That is so far. And if we cannot get up the passion to fight for this, Ich weiß nicht, was ihr über das Thema denkt.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Lindsay Teslowski, die wir auf unserem YouTube-Kanal interviewt haben, wenn ihr das anschauen wollt, ist sein Arbeiter und hat Informationen über diesen Mann publiziert. Sie hat ein paar Bilder von ihm veröffentlicht. Und wir legen alle diese Sachen in den Link zu den Show Notes. Und ich muss dir sagen, diese hat mich ziemlich hart geholfen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Ja, ein paar Dinge dazu. Eine ist, dass einige von diesen Leuten legal sind. Wenn du aus Venezuela kommst, unter TPS, bist du nicht wirklich ein legaler Immigrant. Du bist nicht unbefugt. Und wir senden also legal Residenz, legal Immigranten hier, Leute, die legal gemacht wurden, von einer TPS, die von dem Staatssekretär Marco Rubio unterstützt wurde.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Er unterstützte sehr aufregend, dass diese Leute von der TPS zurückgegeben wurden, im Jahr 2019. Die andere Sache ist das Spiel in Trumps Händen. Weißt du, was das Spiel in Trumps Händen ist? Es ist einfach, dass alle diese Leute Gang-Mitglieder sind und wir nicht für ihre Rechte kämpfen können. Das ist das Spiel in Trumps Händen. Eigentlich macht er seine Aktionen auf.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Schaut euch das an, was zum ersten Mal passiert ist. Es ist wie Memento. Sie haben ihre Erinnerung aus dem ersten Termin verloren. Wir haben ihn auf Immigration-Stuff gekämpft. Wir haben ihn stoppt. Kinderverbrechen. Da gab es Sieg. Es war nicht so gut, wie es sein sollte.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Aber es gab Menschen, die ihre Rechte zurückgezahlt haben, weil sie sich gegen ihre Verhältnisse im ersten Termin gezwungen haben. Das fängt mich an. Und hier ist das andere, was für die nächsten Leute kommt. So, there's this guy, I don't know if you know Mayflower American Chamath Palihapatiya. He's on the All In Podcast with David Ballsacks, who's now the Crypto Czar.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
He's friends with Elon, and he's become a big Trump supporter, a huge donor to Trump. He was out yesterday, and we're kind of having a little Twitter fight about it, which I shouldn't be doing by the pool today, but...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
He's out there saying... That's what you do when you come to Arizona to sit by the pool. Normal people might sit by the pool, swim. I'm shitposting. Don't distract me with that pool. I might make a Twitter fight.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
But this guy, and again, it's not just a random, it's worth saying, this is not just a random podcaster, it's somebody that speaks to Elon, the co-president, speaks to David Sachs, who is in the White House, I assume speaks to Trump, and he's saying that the Tesla vandals or whatever, even if they are legal Americans, even if they're American citizens, should be denaturalized and sent to El Salvador.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
Sie hat das geschrieben, als sie die Bilder veröffentlicht hat. Das ist unser Klient Andri, der von der Trump-Administration verschwunden ist. Heute Abend ist er in einem Salvadoran-Prison, notoriös für Menschenrechtsverletzungen. Er ist ein Bruder und ein Sohn, ein Make-up-Artist. Und wie viele von uns, hat er Tattoos. Wenn du dir diese Bilder anschaust... Wer weiß? Ich weiß nicht, André.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1006: Live from Phoenix
And this is happening inside the FBI, inside the Department of Justice. They're using resources for people that were whatever they were doing before, looking after drug smugglers or rapists or whatever other types of people the FBI was looking at. And instead they're moving those resources to... zu fokussieren auf die Tesla-Vandalisten.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Speaking of which, back to the aforementioned principles first conference. Folks that were not on the internet didn't see the news over the weekend. The Proud Boys showed up. Enrique Tarrio showed up and Ivan Raiklin and some others to the conference. Then the next day, there was a bomb threat that was sent in by somebody that mentioned you by name, Bill. Actually, I didn't get mentioned, so...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
You assholes wanted it. Now you've got it. Good luck. Does that seem like the temperament for somebody that we'd want for the number two slot at the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
I guess maybe they're not a podcast listener, mentioned several other folks. Obviously, it ended up being fake. The interesting thing about it for me that I think is worth discussing, the January 6th cops were there. Gil Ganel got the Courage Award, and they had a panel with Harry Dunn and Michael Fanone. And Fanone said this before... The Proud Boys had shown up.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
This was him on stage just a little bit before he realized that these guys were going to show up and try to create a stir. Let's listen to Michael Fennel.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
It's pretty striking that he said that and then Enrique Tarrio shows up like 30 minutes later and then Kash Patel and Dan Pancino are in charge of the FBI 24 hours later. Pretty prescient observation by Michael Fennel.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Yeah, the menacing element of it. I have a little bit more coming after we finish on the intimidation side of things. But the free reign to menace people element of this is real. And again, you roll your eyes to say it at this point, but it is just shocking that you do not have, even after something like this, where these guys get pardoned, show up,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
menace the cops that were injured at the Capitol. There's a bomb threat. Maybe under what we don't, we don't actually know who sent the bomb threat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
And, you know, I mean, like there's not like the Tom Tillis's of the world, you know, who were up there on stage just like a month ago, you know, try mocking liberals or mocking anti-Trumpers who are concerned that this might happen, who are concerned that Trump might pardon the violent criminals and, and, like, deriding them in the Senate.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
None of them have the integrity to, like, even send out a tweet that is like, this is bad. Like, you know, I might disagree with the folks in that room when it comes to the matter of Donald Trump, but, like... whatever. I've worked with many of them. They're conservatives. They do not deserve to be menaced. They do not deserve to be threatened.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
And it was a mistake for Donald Trump to release the people from prison that would do this type of thing to police officers. That's a pretty simple statement to send. There are plenty of those statements that were sent by Democrats when there was, I think, a non-political attack on Donald Trump, a crazy person in Pennsylvania. And not only does it not happen
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
There's just not even any expectation that it will happen. People are like, they've been so beaten down by these guys' cowardice. I doubt they will even get asked about it on the Hill today.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Weak. Weak. It's a bunch of weak, weak, weak individuals. So anyway, good on Heath and Heath Mayo, who hosted that event, and all the folks that continue to show up. It was good to see a bunch of people out there. And these guys cannot be allowed to silence us with their stupid troublemaking.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Lastly, before we get to more from principals first, I'll play some audio from my interview with Polis and my panel with Sarah Longwell. There was, I don't know to call it positive news or not, but the German elections were over the weekend. I think it's worth kind of mentioning because it became relevant to domestic politics because Elon Musk and J.D. Vance's campaigning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
on behalf of AFD, the far right nationalist, German nationalist party, they ended up getting just about 20% of the vote in whatever it is, six, seven way election. The CDU, CSU led by Friedrich Merz won the election with the most votes, about 29%. SBD had 16, Greens had like 11 or 12. So on the one hand,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
You know, not great that the AFD is now the second party there, the lead opposition party, if you will, in Germany. But I guess it's better than them winning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Yeah. And the other thing is, to your point about Musk's campaigning there, and we'll see. I mean, these guys are going to use more nefarious methods to get involved in other countries' elections going forward. They're going to do more of what the Russians did in our election, to be honest. Social media kind of campaigns, that sort of stuff. And this was...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Yeah, I mean, Dan is kind of dumb. You know, when I do my MAGA research for all of you, I'm like, listen to MAGA shows. I tried to listen to his and I couldn't because, and it's literally like listening to somebody with a fourth grade reading level doing the news.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
I think that, I don't exactly know, people that are in Germany were saying that the X, you know, the for you page on X was pretty favorable to AFD, you know, and so maybe there was some algorithmic monkeying around and maybe all that stuff will continue or grow. But in the meantime, like, these guys aren't popular in most other countries, right? Like they do not like Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
They've, they are growing to hate Musk and JD Vance is a zero, right? And so you're seeing this a little bit in TBD in Canada. I've done several interviews with friend JJ McCullough and other, and I was at a conference with some Canadian political experts recently. And, uh, A month ago, the scene was that the conservative candidate, Pierre, was kind of a shoo-in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Everybody's so upset with Trudeau and inflation and a lot of the stuff that impaired Biden, but then also just he'd been in for so long and it's time for a change. The Trump involvement in Canada, you've seen those polls start to narrow. Now it's a little less certain, actually. It's possible that Trump's bullying of Canada might backfire. I don't know
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
whether him and Musk actually really care that much about whether these other countries have right wing parties or if it's just like a big social media game. But it is noteworthy that now we've seen that the trend of them being like unable to make a positive difference or maybe even harming the candidates of choice now in a couple of places.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
And so I just, you know, I needed to at least be challenged and have my brain be moving a little bit, which every once in a while, Bannon or Candice or one of the Patrick Bette, one of these other people will at least say, get my brainwaves moving a little bit. Dan Bongino was unable to do that. So I didn't listen to a lot of him, but no, he's a total hack. He seems unstable emotionally.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
All right. Well, that's an uplifting place for us to end. Bill Crystal, everybody else stick around. I'm going to do a little intro about the Polis interview and talk about my call to arms within the panel with Sarah Longwell. So everybody else stick around for that. Thanks so much, Bill Crystal. We'll see you back here next Monday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
If you are a Borg Plus member, go to theborg.com slash subscribe. We posted that over the weekend on our sub stack. But I want to play a short bit from the very end.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
That was a riff that I was doing after Tarrio had shown up to the conference and we were discussing, like we did last week, Robert Garcia getting the letter from Ed Martin about his comments about Musk on CNN and all these other examples of intimidation that we've seen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
One of the reporters tweeted like an email that he had sent him recently calling him a dipshit and making fun of the shape of his head. You know, I mean like this kind of really, really childish stuff. You can see just like when you watch him, like his temperament is just the opposite of even keel and, He doesn't know his way around the building.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
And I just wanted to offer everybody a reminder that at this point, to Bill's point about how the autocracy may come, it hadn't come yet. We talked about this at Atom on Friday, Kinzinger on Friday, and I want to continue to reiterate it. There is something to be said for speaking up and speaking out and doing so clearly and doing so without apology and not editing yourself or censoring yourself.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
It's important to do regardless of whether it has a political benefit because it has other benefits and has other societal benefits. You know, it might be an eye-rolly cliche, but courage is contagious, and we should all do our part in any way we can, either in our communities or on YouTube, if you're me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
So I'll play you a little bit of that clip from my conversation with Sarah Longwell, and then the full interview with Jared Polis.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Before he goes into the Jared Polis interview, I gave him a homework assignment, which was to read the principles, first principles, the Declaration of Principles, because he was the only Democratic elected official to come, which I thought was really cool for him to come. But he took the homework assignment very, very literally, as a high achieving nerd that he is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
And he like had read all the principles and was ready to talk about them. And so if you're listening to the interview, I would assume 99.9% of you have not read the principles, first principles. So if you want to read them and see what he was talking about, I mean, they're all pretty good. It's talking about how integrity matters to the Constitution being paramount.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
It's the type of thing that you would expect a bunch of norms-loving, never-Trump Republicans, former Republicans, to put as our principles list. But to give you some context for the conversation, we'll put the link in the show notes or in the YouTube description so you guys can read those to give you a little bit of perspective on my conversation with Governor Polis.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
So I hope you enjoy these conversations from the Principles First Summit. And we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. See you all then. people that are supposed to be speaking out, people that are in the political fray, we cannot be made to be afraid of these fucking people, okay? We cannot. I know these people. I know these people. They are cowards.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
They are cowards, okay? Like, Kash Patel would shit his pants if he was in Fallujah, okay? So would I, by the way. But, like, I know them. I know them, I know their type, and they are cowards.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
They are bullies, and they are cowards, and they are trying to intimidate us, and they are trying to shut us up with their stupid letters that they're sending from Ed Martin in the DOJ, or from Elon Musk's Twitter feed. He thinks that he can bully people and shut them up for his Twitter feed. No, none of these people are worth fearing, all right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
And when I talked to Kinzinger about this yesterday... And his message to them was, come and arrest me. All right, come and arrest me. But until then, I'm going to say what I'm going to say. And I feel like people need to hear that because speaking out right now is a good in itself. A lot of times on our podcast, we talk about what's the strategic thing to do and what's the smart thing to do.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
As I think about this, if we are really going where I think all of us think we're going, towards an urbanist type government, nobody asks the dissidents in Hungary, do you think that It's gonna help the polls if you speak, your poll numbers, if you speak out against Orban. Nobody asks that, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Because everyone understands that in the face of an autocratic threat, just saying no is an end into itself. And so to me, We might all go through this principles list in 2029, God willing, with a new president and discuss how many of them we still agree on and in the public space get to debate the policies and disagree on them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
I received a text this morning from somebody that said that the top two people now have no idea how the FBI works. They don't know the rules and the policies that make the place work. They're fired and forced to retire with people one to two levels down. All of that combined makes for a pretty, I think, ominous setup. I think the best case scenario is that they are
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
But in the meantime, our job is to say no to this, to stand up to them, and to not be afraid because they want you to be afraid and you have no reason to be fearful of these little men. What's happening, everybody? As much as I like Heath's intro, I told him next year I want pyrotechnics, like CPAC. That's the only thing we'll steal from them, you know?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Just something with a little bit of, get a little heat, get us going in the morning. How you doing, Governor? Good to see you again. I was told there'd be pyrotechnics. I'm a little disappointed, frankly. Well, this is your first one. Next year, we're going to make this happen. It's my home state governor. Not anymore. I'm in Louisiana now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
I'd like to trade him for Jeff Landry, but I don't think that's going to happen, unfortunately. Unless you're interested. Are you interested in moving to Louisiana? You know, we're interested in welcoming you back to Colorado. Okay, you're gonna get me in trouble with my mother. I gave you some homework before we got here, because I believe you're the only elected Democrat here. Is that right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Was there any other elected Democrats? We had some candidates, maybe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Yeah, okay. It's hard to choose from. So I think you're the only one here. And so the homework I gave you was to look at Heath's 15 principles, or maybe there are 16, we don't know, and see kind of where you think our alignment is. Where do we start? Well, first, I mean... And you did your homework.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Would be devastating not only to the global economy, but right here at home in our backyard Yeah, let's and we also have a lot of policy overlap You know us former us exiled Republicans and you you know free markets free people Let's talk a little bit about what you've been doing in Colorado Before, we might have to argue a little bit about politics, but our agreement is more about policy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
And you've done, I mean, regulatory reforms. You did the chainsaw before it was cool, I think, and cutting some red tape. Before it was not cool, I guess, would be a better way to put it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
You know, that it's just like a comedy of errors. But that's probably helped him at this point.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Yeah, and as Heath mentioned, we're like building houses. That's exciting. We're doing market-based reform for housing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
You cut taxes? We did. I'm just trying to warm up all the conservatives.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
And you're not needlessly mean to transgender people or rejecting people from coming to your state?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
There's no doubt about that. There's some bad gays out there. Not on this stage, but they exist. I could think of a couple. Speaking of that, you were in the room yesterday with, was it yesterday or two days ago now, where the governor of Maine, your colleague, was kind of getting into it with the president, Janet Mills. What did you make of that exchange? Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
No, my daughter beat her boy cousin and Colorado and basketball. And that caused a meltdown over Christmas. So we're not going to talk about it. Hopefully Louie's not listening. Um, uh, the other thing is just, I think the capriciousness, uh, like regardless of what you think about, like where the line is on, on when it comes to youth sports and gender, um,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
I'm appreciative of how Trump is acting about all this stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
So you were behind the scenes. You had to have dinner with Donald Trump last night. I was at the gay bar, so you guys can decide who had a more enjoyable evening. Do you get any clarity from the White House on the kind of random government workers that are being fired in your state, whether you're going to have any funding for Medicaid?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Yeah. We're not rooting for a recession, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
I know you're good, Jared. I'm the devil on your shoulder. What about the other uncertainty with regards to the cuts? I know you had some controversy. in your state about, I guess, what, forest rangers got fired? I mean, who the hell knows? There are government workers that are in every state. Like, do you get any conversations about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Yeah, I saw a tweet as I was coming in, a rare good one, from Jessica Riedel, who's a friend of the principles first. And she wrote this, if Mitch Daniels was running Doge, I think we could replace his name with yours here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
If Jared Polis was running Doge, they'd have already begun implementing GAO recs to fix the billions in payment errors, consolidating duplicative programs, auditing thousands of programs for efficiencies, legally, competently, and with minimal disruption. That's real money. That's not what they're doing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Would have been much better. But we are what we are. And so I saw you on one of the Sunday shows over the weekend, and you seem to like... Give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they will land in a place where they are going to actually care about efficiency. And I guess maybe that was one area where we part ways. A rare area where we part ways.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Because I don't think that they have any intention to do anything.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Do you think that's going to happen?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
You are an optimist. What about, I mean, what about when it comes to the doge? And there's got to be, do you have any, you still have even a hint of hope that this could end positively?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
You're the governor of the state. Have you gotten a call?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
There are people in your state that are losing their jobs.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
I see that you're hopeful and optimistic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
I'm going to get rid of the penny. I'm all for that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Poor people at the penny plant, though. It's tough.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
I had to go there as a kid. It was a really boring field trip.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
I'm with you on that. So here's the thing, though. You're optimistic. You've heard some things that might sound nice that you could imagine you agree with. Have they actually done anything that materially would improve the welfare of a person in Colorado so far? I mean, it's only been a month. They being? Trump and Elon.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Has there been anything that they've done that you're like, okay, Coloradans are going to benefit from this thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Like a thousand executive orders. They fired a lot of people. They renamed some things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Yeah. Well, that's not good. If the only thing positive you can think of is the penny.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
That's a good reminder that the China one's been enforced. All right. They've renamed the Gulf, though. So we have a new Gulf, the Gulf of Trump. I was wondering if we could split ball. Do you want to rename anything? You only got two years left in Colorado. You've updated a few things. I'm from Littleton.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
that's kind of like a beta name littleton i was thinking maybe we could rename that after like maybe me or nicole yeah somebody like millerton yokich ton is there any other name would be fun i think all rods would go for that i think that'd be awesome did you have any other renaming ideas well you know um i i tweeted on this but when the um
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Auctioning off the naming rights. Close the national deficit. Okay. Well, I'm interested in that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
I'm up for it. Maybe in Lauren Boebert's district. If we're going to have to pick a place to auction off, I'd probably start there. You mentioned the debt and the deficit. This is another thing I think that is important, and I think you'd be a good messenger on this, because some other Democrats don't care about this. They don't have any plans, actually, to cut the debt or deficit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
I asked several people what I should ask you, and everybody demanded that I ask you about RFK. So here we are. You had some nice things to say about RFK. He's just an okay. He's okay for me. He's bad to quite bad, I would say. That's pretty good for the new administration, isn't it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
What are you seeing? What was it about RFK that gave you a little interest, that piqued your interest?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Yeah. I don't know. I'm not feeling that good about that. What about the other thing about making America healthy again that gets me a little crossways, I think, with RFK, which is I don't know how cutting all research to any infectious diseases in the future is a very good idea. I think that's kind of a bad idea as far as on the health ledger.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
But do you feel like he's serious about that, though? I mean, we're already seeing real ramifications to programs getting cut, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
The only pushback I've seen, and it's TBD on whether this was actually pushback. There's some reporting this morning on this, but the FBI Agents Association, the union, had put out a statement about an hour before Bongino was made public. And so I don't know if it's known at this stage whether this is... It was an intentional leak or just very bad timing and bad luck for them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Okay. I'm just doing my best to just poke your optimism here. I'm trying to do it. You're like an optimism balloon, and I'm just going to keep pinning until I find a spot where we can let the air out. What are you the most worried about?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
What worries you? And we've mentioned the tariffs. What else worries you the most? You know, like if he called you tomorrow, he's like, we had a great dinner. You seem like the only Democrat that is normal, you know, and he gives you a buzz and he's like, Jared, what do you think I should, what do you think I should not do? What would you stop him from doing besides the tariffs?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Let's talk about the Dems for a minute and just going forward. I'm wondering how you think... the Democrats can try to recapture the mantle of appealing to working people, to people that don't really like the status quo, to the types of people that RFK appealed to? Let's just be honest. What are some ways that you think the party can not have to be the establishment?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
How can the party embrace being reformed?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
The Democrats did quite poorly in most blue states, like not swing states this past year, lost a lot of ground in the Northeast and the West. Two places where the Democrats lost a little ground, but not too much, was Utah and Colorado. Is it just luck and the fact that there are a lot of Mormons there, you think? Or was there something that... Mormons, hell yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Or is there something that you did that you think might be worth looking at if you're a governor of an East Coast state?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
So do you not see that happening in the coastal states? Like, what are you doing that they're not doing in California and New York? I mean, the Democrats lost 10 points in New York, like a ton. It was not just on the margins, right? It was not just conservatives.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
It's a long statement, but it was talking about Patel and it was a message to agents. And they said that they had brought two main concerns to cash back in January when he was the nominee had not yet been confirmed. The first was they said that they want the deputy director to continue to be an onboard active special agent agent.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Yeah. Do you look back at COVID and feel like there's a lengthy backlash to how that was managed at all? How do you reflect back on COVID? We first met, actually, because I watched your press conference during COVID, and it was around mask mandates.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
and you said, some reporters were giving you trouble, and you were like, I sat and read the studies, and I read the studies, and I decided that we didn't need, we should.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Do you worry about that with regards to RFK? If we have a bird flu outbreak and kind of how we are prepared to manage another pandemic?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
I don't remember. Jared Bullis is reading the studies in charge.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
All right. Final one. Next year, we don't want you to be alone as the Democratic elected here at Principals First. So could you nominate a few other Democrats you would like us to Heath to recruit?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
What about Wes Moore, maybe? He's just right across the thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
That's my man. It's Governor Jared Politz, everybody. If only we had 50 like him, we'd be in better shape. We'll see y'all.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
as has been the case for 117 years for many compelling reasons, including expertise and trust. The other thing was they wanted all the agents to be given due process if there's going to be firings over the Trump investigations. They write this. On both points, Director Patel agreed. So noteworthy, I think, that Trump announced this, not Patel.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
No, that is not unfair. And we're about to just listen to a little clip from him that's going to show it. And we're going to get into more in the second part of this podcast. I interviewed Jared Polis at the principal's first conference, which ended up having a lot of drama and fireworks, more so in the past five years. So we'll get to that in a minute.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
The Bullard Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Here we are just again with Cash having, I think pretty clearly, it's alleged, it's reports, etc., but seems to have lied during his confirmation hearing about his involvement in the firings and now seems to have either lied or been unable to follow up on his promise to the people that are going to work for him about having a competent attorney.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
You'd mentioned Millie, and that just reminded me, the news is happening so fast, I guess I don't even know if we got to this on Friday, because it might have been after we taped the pod. But there also was the purge of generals over at the DOD. We now have a new chairman of the Joint Chiefs. That was a three-star general with the nickname Raisin Canes, who seems to have been a big Trump fluffer.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
And then there were a couple of other changes made. There's not been, at least that I've seen yet, any actual rationale for the firings and the changes. I don't know. I wonder if you have any thoughts on the purging over at the DoD.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
But first up, let's test your theory that Pongino is one of the more clownish Trumpists. And listen to a clip from his podcast.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Well, just think about the type of resumes you're going to get for the JAG job. This is not my area of expertise, but just using common sense. It's like you have the new Secretary of Defense that has called them JAGOVs, that has impugned their integrity and modems, that said that these legal officers were hurting our warfighters' fighting capability.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
And then it's just kind of a mass firing of all of them. And now it's like, okay, now we're going to be interviewing people to replace them, the types of person that is going to want that job at this point, like I would assume is going to be people that are on board with anything goes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
No doubt. You mentioned your conversation from yesterday with Bob Kagan. We'll put it in the show notes here. We're doing kind of the Sunday Substack conversations for folks that... Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday, February 24th. We are in the Upside Down. One of my competitors in the podcasting space, the borderline literate Dan Bongino, is taking over as the Deputy Director of the FBI. So that is our big news item for this Monday, and I'm happy to be here with Bill Kristol to discuss it. How are you doing, Bill?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Did he have any tangible recommendations on things to do in the meantime?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
That is really funny, having checks and balances. And then I've got another tweet for you that he sent recently. The irony about this for the scumbag commie libs is that the cold civil war they're pushing for will end really badly for them. Libs are the biggest pussies I've ever seen, and they use others to do their dirty work. But they're not ready for what comes next. They never have been.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Yeah, I do. I mean, at some level, if we get into the real dark place, there's some tension between the fact that the Congress can't. do anything or won't in the case of the Republican Congress, does that impede Trump or just kind of actually allow him to further consolidate power? There's some discussions already this morning about the budget. Mike Johnson was supposed to pass a budget today.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
We'll see if it happens. But I don't think that they're going to be able to pass anything. I'm going to have to believe it when I see it. I don't think that these guys can pass anything. I don't think they have the votes for anything. And, you know, maybe I'll be proven wrong on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
But if that does come to pass, and it's just chaos on the Hill, obviously, that slows down Trump's agenda at some level, but maybe not in, you know, these power ministries, right? And maybe not on the, you know, on the democracy rule of law side of things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol and Jared Polis: Send In the Clown
Y'all, our ads today are all about preparation. When you got Bill Kristol talking to Bob Kagan about... The risks of autocracy in our country and how it's important to sound the alarm early and to prepare early. Well, that makes everybody think a little bit. You know, it makes all of us make sure that we're prepared and that we have our affairs in order in our own life.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
My answer is going to be like, I don't know and don't care. Nobody knows. We don't have a crystal ball. And nobody asked Navalny every time he said something that Putin did something was wrong. Were they like, Alexei, do you think this will have an impact at the polls when you're criticizing Putin's corruption? Putin's corruption is bad for the sake of it being bad. Same with Orban.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
So that's our schedule to Bill. Bill, I usually start these by saying, how are you doing? And I'm not really asking how you're doing when I say that. That's just kind of a nicety. But I'm curious how you're doing, genuinely.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Same with Lukashenko and same with Donald Trump. And hopefully we don't take the slide all the way down to that style authoritarianism. But I do kind of resent this notion that every – that if you took a principled opposition to something and then the voters voted – on some other issue or based on some other priorities, and that opposition did not have value. I do reject that completely.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I like you have some grandkids there that are at least keeping you grounded. Yeah, I'm sorry about that in the background.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
The sounds of the children are the only thing giving me a little joy. We have to do some news. I don't really want to, but I'm out of the feelings and into the news. You mentioned the pardons. President Biden issued preemptive pardons for Mark Milley, Anthony Fauci, members of the January 6th committee, and the cops who testified before the committee.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
They write, the issuance of these pardons should not be mistaken as acknowledgement that any individual engaged in any wrongdoing, nor should acceptance be misconstrued as an admission of guilt for any offense. I don't know. Just in the... Interesting candor, and I guess daily listeners of the pod will know this. Initially, I was for this after the election. It seemed like the right thing to do.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Increasingly, I was persuaded against it by a couple of people who were on the list for getting preemptive pardons. Because, you know, you can say that the issuance should not be mistaken as an acknowledgement of wrongdoing, but... Even still, tacitly, it kind of is. And in addition, you know, there is the precedent. And, you know, I don't know. We might still have a rule of law in 2029.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I would like to be open to the possibility that there's still a rule of law in this country in 2029. And if some of Donald Trump's henchmen commit crimes, that they might have to be held to account for them. I don't have much hope that Donald Trump will be held to account. But, you know, maybe there is still hope that some of the people around him are. So I fall down.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I'm being opposed to this after consideration, but I do think it's a tough call. I don't know what you think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
We're going to get to the January 6th, folks. But one more Biden news this morning. Usually we're disappointed. That's probably a little bit understating where I am on this topic. Dr. Jill Biden and President Biden will host a tea and coffee reception in the Blue Room this morning. It's probably happening as we speak right now, actually, with the Trumps before all four ride to the U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Capitol together for the inauguration. Gag me. Was the tea and crumpets necessary? I don't think it was. I don't know. Some people might disagree with that. It feels to me it's not the biggest deal in the world, but it's a no for me, I guess, as Randy Jackson would say.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Yeah, I don't know. You can't really sell me on I'm an institutionalist when we're doing smiley photos with Donald Trump at the White House and having tea. And I'm not an institutionalist when I'm adding amendments to the Constitution randomly a couple days before the election. That just isn't a match for me. You kind of need both or neither. I would be on the side of neither.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
You could sell me on both, but the either or is not working for me. To Trump's moves. So he had a rally yesterday. And as part of my pledge, we're not playing any audio from that because people just don't need that in their life today. He had a rally at the, what are they calling it? It was the MCI Center, the Verizon Center, where the Wizards play. Capital One Arena now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
And he talked about how he plans to pardon Trump. The hostages today is what he called them and how that was going to make people very happy. Elon got to speak. The vice presidential elect did not. I thought that was interesting. It was, you know, Trump-y. It was garish and absurd. You know, Stephen Miller was doing some... racially motivated attacks on people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
It wasn't quite at Madison Square Garden level, but again, it is in sharp contrast with the tea this morning, I guess, that Trump decided to have a non-traditional pre-inauguration rally where he talked about releasing the people that savaged cops at the Capitol. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
He was unbelievable. And the Super Bowl is in New Orleans, so maybe you can come back down to Louisiana.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
They're taking on risk, the individual people that buy the Bitcoins. I mean, who knows? The Trump Bitcoin could go to the moon and it could just go up, up, up forever. You know, what the hell? The rules of capitalist economics seem to not be applying these days. But, you know, they're at least still taking on risk, right? Like the plutocrats are not.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
It's the exact opposite. not only is there not a pretense of that public mindedness, they're actively hostile to it. Mark Andreessen said this, like the VC who is in Trump's inner circle has been, according to the Washington Post, been interviewing people for jobs, who has tons of interest in crypto and AI, was a seed donor to the free press.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I would hope so. I'm still in the market for tickets, so we'll see how that goes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Did notice the free press got a nice exclusive leak from the Trump administration. I don't know if Mark Andreessen was involved in that, but yeah, Like he said recently that he was, I don't know exactly the words, but resentful towards this notion that like you have to make all this money and then to be good in liberal society and you have to give it all away.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
He was attacking the exact thing that you're talking about, like this, this other, you know, this era of capitalism. exceptionally wealthy, the Rockefellers, the Carnegies, etc., that made all this wealth for themselves, but then also redistributed it back in various other pursuits.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
And so, again, it's just like, you can not like the Rockefellers and have plenty of complaints about that, but it does seem better than the alternative, which is making ungodly sums of money and then being resentful when being told that you might have some obligation back to the people in your society.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I would have gladly done this whole pod with Jaden and we could have done film analysis. But unfortunately, that is not our fate. No, he was brilliant. He looked brilliant. The football was brilliant all weekend. I went to a concert last night. So if I don't seem like I'm at 100% this morning, I'm trying to get endorphins and distractions from anywhere I can in this moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I do think it's possible. And I do think that there will be some backlash. I can sometimes worry about the nature of the backlash. And I think a lot of it will also depend on the results. Good news is I'm not expecting a lot of great results from the Donald Trump administration. We've got these executive orders.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
We're going to have a lot of time to kind of sip through all of them and discuss the impact. There's going to be, I guess, potentially, according to reports... That question of emergency on the border, ending all kinds of DEI programs within the government, ending any efforts to accommodate people who have a different gender identity than the one that they were born with, those will be eliminated.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
We've already mentioned the pardoning of the people that beat the cops at the Capitol on Donald Trump's behalf and potentially the TikTok extension. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on any of those in particular or big picture. It feels almost silly at this point to be like, conservatives used to be against executive fiat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
And I think this is probably something that has been really pernicious throughout this century. I mean, Bush... Bush, too, did more on executive orders than previous presidents had, at least the recent previous presidents. Obama then did more than him, and then Trump, and obviously Biden with student loans, etc.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
This has been kind of an ever-escalating thing that I oppose, but I don't know at this point how to roll it back. Any big-picture thoughts on the executive orders or any of the individual items?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I agree with that. I think another potential thing, we'll kind of see how it plays out, is there's now going to be a big gap between the shock and awe and when they actually do anything. It's going to take Congress a long time to do stuff, and so this is why generally people, in addition to the fact that
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Some presidents cared about the limits on executive power and had legal experts and people within the government reviewing these sorts of things before they got announced. As I traditionally said, there weren't 200 of them or however many that ended up being on Inauguration Day. But also just politically speaking –
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
You kind of roll them out over the course of a month or two while your agenda gets moving through Congress. And so I think that's also something to monitor. One other thing, Senator Ron Johnson told reporters this morning that Trump is talking of tariff revenue of as much as $1 trillion today. Just obviously preposterous on its face. That would be about a 25% tariff on all imports.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Johnson says he's trying to talk Trump out of it, but doesn't know what he'll decide. So that's another thing to monitor coming down the pike.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I agree. All right. I'm going to leave us with this. We are about an hour and a half away from Donald Trump putting his hand on the Bible as we tape. And we had a little bit of news last night from country music singer Lee Greenwood about what Bible Trump will be using. Let's take a listen to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
It's turtles all the way down, Bill. It's grift all the way down. We are, we don't know, maybe putting our hand on the God bless the USA Bible, which you can just get if you go to Lee Greenwood's website. And, you know, only a little bit of a cut of that is going to go to the president-elect. And only 4,000 of these bad boys. So get them while they're hot.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Yeah, so we got to get to the news. I'm going to do everybody a favor. We're not going to play his voice today. So that's my little gift to everybody. So we're not going to play clips from him at the rally yesterday. But there was one thing that happened over the weekend that's kind of tied to my feelings of despair and nihilism about all of this. It was the coin. Trump minted a coin on Friday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
No, this is an appropriately alarming and dour final note from you, Bill Kristol. I had a text. I'm in New York. I'm going to be on MSNBC today if people really want to suffer and do self-harm and watch me talk about it on the news. And so I don't have my usual setups. My texts are popping up here on my computer.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
And as you are giving that alarming close to this podcast, I received a text from a friend that said, Trump getting inaugurated on MLK Day. We are a failure. I can't really do much better than that. So I'm going to leave it there. Everybody else, come hang out with us if you want post-inauguration if you're desperate for like-minded folk on YouTube or on Substack.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Otherwise, we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulldog Podcast. Thanks to Bill Kristol. We'll see you all then.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
It is, I guess, a Bitcoin, but it's on the Solana website. crypto exchange. I'm sure you're very familiar with all of this, Bill, as a big investor. Here's the thing about it. It is the biggest scam in the history of the presidency. People can't process that, really. He does the thing where it's like, get the Trump digital baseball card or get the Trump mug or the Trump shoes. Those are all scams.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
He's a con artist. But this one, this is an actual investment vehicle. People put real money into this. Some people could lose real money. The coin went from $44 to $60 something, back down to $44. So if you had bought at $60 and then panicked and sold, real people could have lost tens of thousands of dollars. They might eventually, I would think, because...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
you know there's no value here i i'm not i'm not an economist but generally i don't understand why the trump coin has the same net worth as like united airlines or something right now so you know the whole thing is is preposterous but it's real money it's a real scam people can bribe him through it i don't know if they are it's not an accusation but people could right because they trump in the organization that launched this coin which is all the trump associates control 80 percent of it
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
So, you know, if it goes up X amount, they control 80% of the profits. I think that Axios estimated $25 billion or something, potential profits over the weekend. $25 billion. They made Spiro Agnew resign over $10 grand, Bill.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Yeah, we're going to have a little more on the Bibles. And I'm happy to do a private briefing with Susan on the blockchain, how crypto is sold on the blockchain and how there are different exchanges. I'm pretty basic on this, but I think I could get people to level one. Needless to say, and I think that the the key element here is just like how much money went into it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
And you just don't know, like you can't track it. Like somebody when it, right when it launched, somebody put in a million and it's like, was that someone that was in the right place at the right time? Or did they get tipped off? Or did they, and just like, if you're the Saudis or you, you know what I mean? Just think about the opportunities you have to put money right into his pocket.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
But here's the thing. This is how it relates to my feelings. It worked. It's working. The guy at Barstool, Dave Portnoy, said that when he saw the big rush on this, he put in 500K. Then the Trump coin cashed out a million the next day. He just made a half million last night just doing nothing, gambling on this worthless fake coin. And it brought to mind a couple things for me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
There's a guy, Ben Dominich, who wrote for The Federalist, conservative writer, was originally never Trump with us, ended up going full Trump. He was cheerleading for Trump on Fox last night. But he wrote something in 2016 that was about LOL, nothing matters, Republicans. And he wrote this. He said, LOL, nothing matters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Republicans realize the apocalyptic predictions are happening no matter what white paper you publish and that the lights will go down in the West and will not be relit in their lifetimes. That was his rationale for just saying, ah, fuck it. Just go along with this. Like if Trump can win, then nothing matters. That was eight years ago. Trump's now won twice.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
You wrote me over the weekend when I asked what we were going to talk about. And I said, maybe we should just talk about the Romans instead. And you sent me this quote from Tacitus. For myself, the more I reflect on events, recent or remote, the more I am haunted by the sense of a mockery in human affairs. I was with somebody last night who's younger than me. And they were talking about...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Just how that like they have the sense of like, none of this matters. Nothing matters. I don't care about this. Why should I be concerned? I think that this is pervasive right now. And it is giving me a sense of despair that I think is going to have an effect like broadly on the culture. A sense that just why don't we all just kind of get in on the con at this point? What do you think about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
But this is the thing with the ERA. Actually, I mean, it is preposterous. But to your point, it speaks exactly to this sense. It's like, well, fuck it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
If nothing matters, if the rule of law doesn't matter, if this guy can get back into the White House after being indicted four times on different crimes and convicted, I guess he's just going to kind of wave his hand and say that the TikTok ban, for example, which was passed by overwhelming bipartisan legislation in Congress, signed by the president, affirmed by the Supreme Court unanimously, and he can just come in and be like, delayed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is the day of the second Trump inauguration. Like most of you, I'd rather be anywhere other than here, but we're destined to be here right now. Might as well slog through it together. It's Monday, so I've got Bill Kristol, of course. A few programming notes real quick.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
You know, you can just wave a wand and say delayed. And then why can't Joe Biden just wave a wand and say we have a new amendment to the Constitution? It becomes to me like this as somebody who does care about this stuff. I begin to understand that it becomes rational. to start to act as if there's no point in abiding by these shared agreements that we have had.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
You're going to be seeing the pictures of what's happening today in the same building where he incited a mob. I don't know. Make the case to believe in something, Bill. That's where I'm at here this morning. I want you to make the case to me that I need to believe that any of this matters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
We're going to seize the means of content production, Bill. That is true conservatism. We're seizing the means of content production and short-form video.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I hope for people listening to understand that I was, this is kind of a rhetorical exercise with you. I did write recently about not letting Donald Trump take my soul. And I'm committed to that, to not fully descending into complete Ben Dominic level nihilism, or maybe kind of close to tacitus, I guess. I mean, I guess laughing at the mockery of affairs, I might still do.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
But I do think it's still important to look at what has happened today and Believe it can be defeated and believe that there is some value in maintaining the system that we've built. But, you know, to your point, you wrote about this, I guess it was the Friday pod, no matter what, like the era that kind of undergirded this, you know, this Western based rules based order. is kind of over.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Me and Bill are taping this at about 9.30 Eastern and are going to be covering everything from the Trump coin on Friday night through the developments this morning. This afternoon, we'll have a post-inauguration live stream. You'll be able to get that on Substack or YouTube. When that is finished tomorrow, we'll have on a favorite of the pod to sort through the wreckage.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
That's why I wanted to tie it back to the dominant setting. That's kind of right. Hopefully it will persist in a different form, but the order that got us to here in the post-war order to now does feel basically over, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I'm glad you brought this up. I do agree. Also, there's value in saying that things are wrong for saying that things are wrong's sake. This is the thing that my one pundit resolution for the next two years is when I go on one of these fucking shows and somebody's like, well, do you think that... do you think it'll have an impact to criticize Trump on this thing or that thing?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
A land that you would want to even come to to visit, to your broader point, like honestly. So I have a rant I want to pop off on this Venezuela flight. But before we get to that, just a couple of other stories that have been out there this weekend. There was this American Pie spinoff actress. She was in a spinoff to American Pie. She's Canadian. 35.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
She had a previous work visa to be here that had been canceled. She had some issue with her work visa. She's in San Diego. A lawyer said, you know, since she's already in San Diego, she should go to the border to get a new visa. She gets detained and like sent to Arizona and put inside a pen like where she's like sleeping on a mat with aluminum foil over her.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
This lady that had been here legally and her visa had expired or something. Like a minor visa issue. It's crazy that we're detaining this person. We have Dr. Rasha Alawia. I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. She is a physician specializing in kidney transplants and a professor at Brown University. She's 34. She lives in Providence. The U.S. consulate in Lebanon had issued her an H-1B visa.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
which is given to people in these special occupations requiring expertise. This was the big controversy about Indian H-1B visa applicants in Silicon Valley. Her visa was valid through mid-2027. The lawyers don't know what happened, but she got sent. She was flying back into the country. She got sent back to France, and I think to Lebanon. There's a married couple living in Wisconsin.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
The wife was, she was from Peru. They're in Puerto Rico for their marriage, came back. They're going to go to Wisconsin. She was on an expired visa. But she was filling out the paperwork to become a permanent resident, married to an American citizen, stepmother to an American citizen. She gets detained at the airport and was also like sent to Texas to some ICE detention camp across the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
All of these cases are like ridiculous. You know, like they said that he was going after criminals. See what you want about any of these folks. Sure, maybe if we're going to have a hard line on visa rules, maybe some of these folks are going to end up having to be deported or having to go back to their home country. I would be against that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
But in the meantime, to put them in ICE detention centers and use U.S. resources to do this is purposefully cruel. And to your point and to Aaron's point, they're doing this because they want to send a message to people that they're not welcome here. That is what they're trying to scare people. They're trying to freak people out. And I think, frankly, it's going to work. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Did he have anything else on that element of this that's striking? No.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
none of these people i mentioned are criminals gang members they're not selling fentanyl i you know and uh just just to get the facts right on that on the third example i gave her her name is camila muñoz she's living in a small town in wisconsin finds love gets married is parenting a child they're on their honeymoon in puerto rico the guy voted for trump so i did see some some chatter about this case on social media about fucking around and finding out but i don't like
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Okay, I'm fine to laugh at the expense of Trump voters who are suffering the consequences of their actions, but at the broader point, this is preposterous, which takes us back to the Venezuela situation.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
The alien enemies, as you mentioned at the top, the notion here is that what it gives them the ability to do, tell me if this is your understanding, is essentially just to fast-track these deportations without due process. You don't have to actually prove. They don't have to have a court date. It's just there's an accusation that they're part of this enemy group, Trenda or Agua.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
And that is all the rationale you need to deport. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
So what we're doing with these people is we're sending them to El Salvador's terrorism confinement center. If you haven't seen the videos or pictures of this thing, it's like a penal colony run by the villains in some dystopian robo-cop future. It sends a chill down your spine. The idea that you would send one innocent person to this fucking hellscape should just make you shudder.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
If you've not looked at the videos, the White House itself has helpfully sent out a...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
sizzle reel of the horrible treatment of the people at this penal colony i guess is some kind of deterrent or you know maybe to get steven miller hard i don't know why they why they posted up you can watch that if you want here's the thing though so the ceo of the the immigrant defenders law center that's immdef on on social media if you want to check it out this is what she she writes so we're taking her word on this but i i want to actually explain this case in detail
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Our client fled Venezuela last year and came to the U.S. to seek asylum. He has a strong asylum claim. He was detained at entry because ICE alleged his tattoos are gang related. They are absolutely not. Our client worked in the arts in Venezuela. He's LGBTQ. His tattoos are benign. But ICE submitted photos of his tattoos as evidence he's trend to Aragua.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
We last spoke to our client on Thursday before he was supposed to have a hearing in immigration court, but ICE didn't bring him to the hearing. The government attorney had no info about why he was not there. The judge reset the hearing for Monday. Today, we've been trying to contact our client ever since. This morning, yesterday, Sunday morning, he disappeared from the online detainee locator.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Our client came to the U.S. seeking protection, but he spent months in ICE prison, has been falsely accused of being a gang member, and today he's been forcefully transferred, we believe, to El Salvador. We are horrified tonight thinking about what might happen to him now. If this is even in the ballpark of being true, these people are fucking evil. They're evil.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
This is the fundamental part of what America is, that we had welcomed people. If this is true, this is a gay man fleeing persecution in Venezuela, comes to the border, maybe you could decide that whatever, we need new asylee rules, and that doesn't count, and he doesn't count for asylum or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
But that we would do this and smear him and impugn him and put him in a fucking camp and then send him to this dystopian prison colony in El Salvador in a totally different country. It's fucking insane. It is insane. And I saw this thing from a member of French parliament, Raphael Glucksmann. He said, give us back the Statue of Liberty. We gave it to you as a gift, but apparently you despise it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
So it'll be just fine back here at home. That's where I'm at reading this story. Give it the fuck back. Doge can take care of this. Elon Musk can put that on a fucking boat back to France. Because if we were going to treat this person... Like this. There's no we're welcoming the tired and poor and huddled masses. There's no yearning to be free here.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
We're going to send you to a fucking authoritarian dystopian penal camp in El Salvador where you're going to get beat and abused and treated like shit and who knows what else just because you happen to be a Venezuelan that wanted freedom in this country. It is just appalling. So I don't know if you have anything else on that, but... No, it's horrifying.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
It's fucking evil. It's sick. Who are you? What are you? You're religious? You're quoting people? You're trying to quote Ordo Amoris? Yeah. Like about like how we care about each other and we're, you're doing this to this person. Like imagine being this person, assuming that again, assuming like it is reported as true. They're like fleeing Venezuela. They make the long trek to America.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Yeah, and look, there is – again, and we all know this, but as we're saying, there's the new – Alex Eisenstadt from Politico has a new book out that kind of covers the Trump 2024 through the campaign and the transition. And he's got a quote in there where Trump is talking to aides and being sarcastic and saying, listen, everybody, there'll be no retribution. There'll be no revenge. Wink, wink.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
They think they might have the opportunity for freedom. They end up getting put into a prison.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
a cell and next thing you know you're on a plane with actual gang members because by the way i assume there are actual gang members also on this plane that we are sending and i think we probably shouldn't be sending them to fucking el salvador and paying el salvador a fee for this but besides the point okay we're sending some fucking gang members so you're on this plane with like these violent evil gang members and
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
And then you're going to be, you get your hair shaved and like get treated like you are the fucking drag of humanity by some like, like drunk on power, like El Salvadoran, like Robocop, the way that they're like dragging these people around. I just imagine being that person. Like you are in hell. Like you, like this is the worst thing you could possibly do to somebody.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
These people are fucking sick, which takes me to the next thing I want to talk about, which is what do you do if you're the Democrats about this? Because, like, obviously, at its core, it's sad to admit and it's depressing, but probably on balance, like the snuff porn video of us taking tattooed. Hispanic people and throwing them in some fucking prison camp is probably a political winner.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
I wish that were not the case, but it probably is. And so, you know, there'd be people out there saying, Oh, the Democrats, this is pick your battles, pick your battles. I don't know though. What do you think? How do the Democrats handle this?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
I mean, he's obviously – like wrapped around the axle around this, and he's specifically targeting these people.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Yeah, my fucking blood is boiling, so I don't trust my political judgment either. But what is the point of being here if you're not going to fight for these people? What is the point? This is America. This is the fundamental part of America, is the immigrant story. It doesn't mean we have to accept everybody. It doesn't mean we can't deport gang members. But like...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
If you can't make this case in a way that is compelling, then okay, then whatever. I mean, we're going to descend into authoritarian autocracy anyway, so what's the point? I mean, if you're – I get it if you're a random – like, you know, I was looking at the DCCC list and the Republicans think they can gain seats in certain places because people are upset about whatever. Yeah. Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
And we talked about a little bit with David French on Friday, and that generally, historically, when presidents have, you know, or administrations have gone after political foes, not nearly as directly political foes as this, but people that, you know, where they made decisions that were based in politics rather nakedly.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Like I get, if you're like one of these three congressmen or four congressmen in a vulnerable place and it doesn't make sense for you to talk about this, but I don't, I don't see it. And, um, you know, I also just refuse to believe that everybody that is a Christian is Jerry Falwell Jr.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
I think that there've got to be like a handful of non-fake Christians out there that can be appealed to on the grounds of just the inhumanity of this. I mean, one of the other examples that we talked about, I forget if it was with you or somebody else in the pod was that case of the Iranian, uh, woman that was fleeing religious persecution, Christian, Iranian Christian.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
And we sent her to Panama, I guess, to be locked up in some fucking hotel. She couldn't speak to anybody. The Panamanians took our unwanted refugees as part of a deal to take the Panama Canal back from whatever fucking nonsense he was arguing. And like, you know, is the plight of Iranian Christian refugees not something that is material to any, to a single person?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Christian, church-going Trump voter? I don't know. Maybe not, but it's worth a try.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
The price of eggs is down big right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
I don't know. Wrong is wrong. Does this get into your friend Chuck Schumer? Yeah, let's do it. Let's get into Chuck Schumer. Wrong is wrong. I just, also, it's like... I keep going back to who cares. I don't know. Isn't this a problem for ad makers in August of 2026? Yeah. Like in the meantime, I don't know, man. If there was, you're telling me.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
That it's better for Democrats to give boring talking points about the price of eggs while having there be no protests than having people leading like some massive protests outside the Statue of Liberty or outside of an ICE detention center. Again, maybe that's true. Maybe it would backfire to have massive people protesting this. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
But it sure seems to me that mass mobilization against Trump, a mass feeling that things are chaotic and crazy, is probably better than kind of going along with business as normal and giving your talking points about the kitchen table issues. Chuck Schumer. Yeah, Lauren Egan wrote for us on Sunday, our newest reporter. I'm going to get her on here in the next couple weeks.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
you know, look at the Alberto Gonzalez situation for one example, that the administration usually tries to backfill that with like some other rationale. Right. That's like, this isn't, that's not really, this was not really politics. Right. Like what we were really trying to do was X, Y, and Z. And like the Trump administration is not even really doing that. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
But she's going to be covering the Democrats for us here at The Bulwark and just kind of the Democrats in the wilderness and hashing out the different views on these sort of conversations we're having right now. She writes basically that privately, there is genuine anger among Democratic electeds at Schumer. I think one Democrat told her that this was like an Eric Cantor moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
which hit home for me. And I know we lived through that, Eric Cantor getting kicked out by that fucking moron, Dave Brat. But just because he was out of touch with what Republican voters were looking for, I think there's potentially something there on that. What do you make about the Schumer kerfuffle?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
I was critical. I'll just make my point and then you can give yours briefly because I noticed some people in the comments, I think, kind of misunderstood my point. If Schumer decided we cannot win a shutdown because he knows his caucus is better than me, there'll be an uproar, there'll be votes, that people don't have the spine for it, for whatever reason, if you've made that calculation, Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Well, then still then in the meantime, like you've got to use this moment as a flashpoint for fighting and you could still do talking filibusters. They still could have spent the whole weekend pointing out all of the evil shit Elon Musk is doing, bringing people to the floor, you know, do it, getting attention.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
you know driving interest around this and you know would any of that have mattered in the grand scheme of things in the midterms i don't know but at least it would have been responsive to the moment you know and like to me it was just like just this total fold without any fight without any clear message on it you could have sold me on the full fuck it let's go through a shutdown for sure but but at least short of that i wanted some fight so anyway that's where i was at on shimmer
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
And I was just going to say like this whole thing, look, I, I've known, I've been through this book process. I've, I had book things that fell through and that went South, you know, and it's like, who cares? The anti-Semitism warning would have been a very powerful book for Chuck Schumer during the Kamala Harris administration. So it would have been like a message to my own side.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Like, I think that is the other thing that is pretty striking about this. Like they're nakedly like, no, we're going after political foes. And like, Let's see what you're going to do about it, judges.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Right. But then once Trump wins and you are supposed to be the leader of the resistance, I don't know. This feels like kind of an evergreen topic. And I maybe would say to my publisher, let's kick the can on this a little bit. For the first 100 days, my job is fighting fucking Donald Trump's authoritarian regime, not like –
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
you know, making this needed, but, you know, kind of unsadly evergreen point about the problem of antisemitism.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
I don't know. I kind of doubt somebody will challenge him this week. I had heard some murmurs before all this, like a month ago, that maybe Schumer himself was thinking that it might be the moment for him to sort of do what Mitch and Nancy had done and step back and not leave the Senate, but step back and let somebody else be the leader.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
So I don't know if this type of backlash against him is the type of thing that would encourage him more in that direction or the type of thing that would steal him and make him feel contrarian. I think it's pretty hard to see him getting pushed out before the next big reconciliation fight that is coming ahead. I mean, if you're him, that's what you're saying to your members, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Like, I have a plan. Like, we're going to fight them on this reconciliation bill. And the other thing is, there's not really an obvious person. I mean, I think that Chris Murphy's been great messaging-wise. He was the only one sounding fucking...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
even close to reality on the sunday shows this weekend on the on the democratic side or obviously there's nobody on the republican side but like he's junior you know the people in the leadership voted with schumer mostly didn't klobuchar i know shots did dick durbin is obviously not going to be yet so klobuchar and shots are kind of like the next generation people in the leadership and it's kind of i don't know do either of those names really tickle your pickle
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
I think that sometimes the Senator tunes in. Go for it, Senator Murphy. The gym thing is such a triggering thing for me. She's like, we're fucking a decade into this, all right? It's not like, oh, they're really good guys that are going to do the right thing in the end. We know that they're not going to. Like... God, I apologize for impugning Amy Klobuchar's integrity.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
She was not one of the 10 that voted for cloture. Maybe she is the unity candidate.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
I'm going to do much more on the economy tomorrow, but I do want to close with this because Scott Besson, the Treasury Secretary, who is just not exactly, I think, instilling confidence in the markets out there, was on the shows this weekend. And I just wanted to play a couple of clips for his spin on what's happening with the economy right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
It was a Perkins-Cooley case. I was trying to think which was the example. They're targeting so many foes right now. I was like, which was the one that French said, even in their rationale, they just put it bluntly, and it was with regards to the lawyers. The other thing that they have taken the mask off on is the pretense of separation between the Justice Department and the White House.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
I don't know what's more alarming there. Having a multi-billionaire tell people that being able to afford goods in their home is not part of the American dream or the fact that I don't think that he has watched the big short. I'm not even asking you to read the big short. I don't think he understands what happened in the 2007 and 2008 economic crisis. I don't think that the Dow...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
you know, giving off three or four points, you know, during the 2006 run up would have done anything to prevent the mortgage crisis. But anyway, I don't know. In defense of the strategists, This does seem to be their shakiest political turf.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
They're on the road this week, AOC and Bernie, like later in the week. Arizona.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
We're both in Arizona this week. I think AOC and Bernie are there on Thursday. And we've got our, sadly, sold out for people who wanted to go, live event on Saturday in Phoenix. So I don't know. Maybe we'll see them on the road. All right, Bill, one more thing before I lose you. Chuck Schumer has actually canceled the book tour. So I guess he didn't want the heat that was coming to him.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Don't blame him. Hopefully he can turn to some more productive work on behalf of the minority party because the minority parties does still exist in this country for now. So there you go. Chuck Schumer, no book tour. Bill, get back to your baubles. Get back to your silly little baubles, you know, and we'll see you next Monday. See you, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bullard Podcast. It's going to be a good one. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Over the weekend, Pam Bondi was speaking at the DOJ, and I want to play a little bit from that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
The Bulldog Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
I've settled on I'm living. That's good. I'm living. I'm here. That's what I've been telling people. I need something.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Just at the start, that the Attorney General has to do the North Korean ludicrous thing that this is the greatest president. It's not Lincoln. Not Washington. Not the author of the Constitution of the Declaration. It is Donald Trump. It's the greatest president in our history. The Attorney General has to do that. It's pretty weird and alarming. But then there's that phrase,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
That we work at the directive of Trump, followed by claps in the room at the directive. That's actually not right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
I'm living. I'm here. We're here. And there's that. I'd rather be living than dying. We got to start with the pardons that were voided, I guess, allegedly. Can you void via bleat? I guess that will be a question for Amy Coney Barrett to determine at some point.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Yeah. And back to the Bondi thing, too. I just doing the oh, the right wing media is hypocritical, you know, has this pretty boring at this point and has some limits. But it's just worth just putting it like going back to one prime example that anybody that was kind of paying attention to politics in 2015, 16 will remember, which is this Loretta Lynch tarmac meeting.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
There's this notion that the then Attorney General has a meeting on the tarmac with Bill Clinton. So not even like the sitting president, right? But with Bill Clinton. And I still don't think we know exactly what they talked about, but it was when Hillary was under investigation. And there's this notion that maybe some message was sent to tell the Attorney General then to ease off of Hillary.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
And Fox News must have dedicated 100,000 hours to this. If they did a minute, they did 100,000 hours. And it's like the whole pretense of that controversy was that the Department of Justice needs to be separate from political power Right. And that they should judge people's, you know, whether people are prosecuted, you know, based on the facts and based on the law.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
And if they're not doing that, then that is a scandal. And like here we have just out in the open, the attorney general under Trump saying, no, yeah, I'm going to do whatever he wants. Like I will. Be a political actor. And there's nothing wrong with that. And it's just crickets. Like, it's just total crickets. Like, there's no... Has Andy McCarthy, like, written a screed against this?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
I think just after midnight in the East, Trump pleaded that Biden's preemptive pardons of his political foes, particularly the members of the House January 6th Committee, are all caps, void, vacant, and of no further force or effect because they were signed with an auto pen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
You know, I mean, like, there was a whole...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
industrial outrage complex on the right like dedicated to any sense of wrongdoing you know during the obama or biden administration and and they've just totally dispensed with that and like you know i mean obviously i guess we've seen this across so many verticals but like in this case it is just as blatant as you could possibly imagine you know it's striking when you hear the video i'd read the clip but i hadn't i hadn't heard it until just now
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Across all these cases, I saw a tweet from Frum this morning that is, I just think, pretty telling. He wrote that over the course of the first two months here, Trump has claimed power to overturn Article 1 of the Constitution, Congress's authority over spending, Article 2, the predecessor's pardon power, and Article 3, and defiance of a federal court order.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
We're about to get to that next on immigration. But all of this stuff, there's the boiling frogs element to it. And I think that when put that way, it just shows how completely they are disregarding any legal powers or any legal limits beyond Donald Trump can do whatever he wants.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Did you know Fast Growing Trees is the biggest online nursery in the U.S. with thousands of different plants and over 2 million happy customers? They have all the plants your yard needs like fruit trees, privacy trees, flowering trees, shrubs, and so much more. Whatever plants you're interested in, Fast Growing Trees has you covered. You can find the perfect fit for your climate and space.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Their Alive and Thrive guarantee ensures your plants arrive happy and healthy. Plus, you can get support from trained plant experts on call to help you plan your landscape, choose the right plants, and learn how to care for them. No bullshit, I was thrilled about the Fast Growing Trees sponsor. Couldn't have been more excited when we came across the transom. Big plant household.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
This is now a emerging conspiracy theory on the right that Joe Biden was weakened at Bernie's at the White House and that there were like random staffers that were signing pardons that he didn't even know about. And they're using an auto pen to do it. There's some pretty obvious flaws in this theory, particularly that these were extremely high profile pardons that received a lot of news.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
My one sad little plant here in my studio might not give you the full picture. of the flora that we have in every corner of our home and outside our home, backyard, front yard, side yard, everywhere, plants galore. My husband is a plant gay. You have to acknowledge that. My husband's a plant gay. He does the tending, the planting. For me, it's more of a visual experience.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
I get to enjoy the plants. It's nice. It's a good deal. He gets to listen to his podcasts and do the fertilizing, do the watering. It brings him joy. It brings everybody in the household happiness. And so when the fast-growing trees thing came across, We were like, okay, let's get something new. Let's get something fun. Got the daughter in there. She chose an olive tree. She loves olives.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Don't tell her that this is going to mean she's going to have to be a canner after this because if you just pick an olive straight from an olive tree, it's actually not that tasty. So we're going to have to do a little canning. That's a fun summer project. It's a fun after school is over project for a seven-year-old, isn't it? I don't know. Maybe not. I'll report back later.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. If it's Monday, it's Bill Kristol. He's back. How are you doing, Bill? I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
Let's get to immigration. On that third point there, the defiance of the federal court order, he's referencing this flight of Venezuelan. We'll kind of get to who these people are. We'll get to the Venezuelan part of this. But essentially, a judge had put a stay on this alien enemies act.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
powers that that trump says that he is granting himself as far as deporting people inside this country and they had a group of venezuelans they put on a flight and the stay happened when there's some debate about this but maybe the flight is in air and they went through with it anyway and said well it's over international water so we don't have to to respond to this and they don't seem to be having any interest in responding to it anyway so that's like the biggest news on the immigration front but the biggest picture you talked to aaron reichland melnick
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
on our bulwark on Sundays over on Substack, which I really recommend for people who want to get nerdy on what is happening right now with immigration. But what struck you from that conversation that's kind of the biggest picture state of play?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1001: Bill Kristol: Give Back the Statue of Liberty
So it seems pretty unlikely that that happened while Joe Biden was was resting. So this, like many Trump stories, combines the ridiculous with the fascistic. But I'm wondering, what do you make of it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Yeah. Everybody's a podcaster. Ted Cruz and Matt Gaetz are competing with me in the marketplace. It's not as great of a job as it looks. They're all aspiring to be podcasters instead of doers. Speaking of people with agency, an update on the story we talked about with Andrew Wiseman on Friday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
So we had these resignations to the DOJ over the effort to kind of, I guess, let Eric Adams off the hook in exchange for... promises that he would follow the administration's immigration guidelines. The character Emil Bove has been one of the central villains of the first month of the administration, who was the person at DOJ that was pushing this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
He's also the one that was pushing people out of the FBI and is mobbed up in the aforementioned Kash Patel story. Anyway, since we talked last week, we had another person resign over this, Hagan Scott, and I'm going to read a little bit from his from his statement because it is blistering. Any assistant U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
attorney would know that our laws and traditions do not allow using the prosecutorial power to influence other citizens, much less elected officials in this way. If no lawyer within earshot of the president is willing to give him that advice, then I expect you will eventually find someone who is enough of a fool or enough of a coward to file your motion. But it was never going to be me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
That was his resignation letter to Emil Bove. This guy, Hagan Scott, and two bronze stars, special forces. In this letter, he expresses that he shares some perspective of the Trump administration. He clerked for Kavanaugh and Roberts. Times calls him a conservative Republican. I mean, that is a pretty blistering statement for somebody with that background.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
He's looking for something to do. But just your point about agency. I just it is worth just sitting on that for a second that that him and Sassoon like they could have not.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
done this like they could have just gone along with this particular you know kind of extra legal you know quid pro quo sham that the administration was trying to do it could have rationalized it's better to be in there and so I mean it is
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
A big credit to them for not just resigning, but doing so in a way that is crystal clear about the rationale and the fact that they are adult grownups with agency and can make choices about what is right and wrong, which is apparently something that the congressional Republicans haven't come around to. On Ray, I mean, it is wild, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
His whole rationale for resigning, for the preemptive surrender, was that he didn't want to... draw additional attention to the FBI. And so that strategy totally backfires, right? I mean, like he resigns and he just like lets them walk in and fire all of his deputies. And he basically just rolls out the red carpet for the people to do the thing that he didn't want.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
And then it happened and nothing, you know? I mean, it just... as a total abdication of responsibility. Like, I'm sorry. Like, he could have forced them to fire him. He could have made a stink about it. You know, he could have testified. He still could testify. Again, the Cash Patel vote isn't until tomorrow.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Well, we should also shout out to Brian Driscoll, who is the acting FBI director, who's been really holding the line here so far. Yeah, I think he's about right. He'll probably be getting fired later this week. We'll see how that shakes out. So there'll be much more to discuss about that. You know, when you buy a new house, everything's a hassle.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
But the thing that was maybe the most annoying when we bought ours a couple years ago was the window treatments and the blinds was a lot more work and a lot more expensive than I anticipated. And so I'm happy we have a new sponsor that's trying to make sure there's a better way to buy blinds, shades, shutters, and drapery. It's called Three Day Blinds.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
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Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
One last time, that's a buy one, get one 50% off when you head to the number three, dayblinds.com slash the bulwark. I want to do the aforementioned foreign policy stuff, a lot happening. There are going to be talks between the United States and Russia and Saudi Arabia.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
So I had to do this on, I was going to say on Putin's home turf, but I guess since Kushner is the sugar baby of the Saudis, I guess maybe it's on Kushner's home turf. They will hold talks on, quote, improving their ties, negotiating an end to the war in Ukraine. Not involved in those talks is Ukraine. Zelensky was not invited. He's showing up to Saudi on Wednesday. Unclear why.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
We'll see what happens. Maybe for a PR effort on that front. Meanwhile, European leaders are meeting in Paris to discuss. Thoughts, Bill?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Yeah, in the international reverberations, I do think that people just underestimate how it will change. our role in the world, view of us, our ability to have influence. And there's just this one quote that jumped out to me in one of the articles I was reading over the weekend. It's by Anna Merlikina. She's a journalist who fled to keep from Maurepol in 2022.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
And she wrote, the Trump statements is a chain of humiliation for people like me, people who believe that there was law and justice in the world. When you live in a world that is crumbling under your feet, the only thing that helps you survive is to believe in guidelines and civilized democratic countries that uphold values.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
When countries like the United States cease to be pillars, there's nothing to hope for. Wow. Yikes. I didn't see that. That's really powerful. Yeah. Yeah. I think that there's just something to that. I was interviewing Mark Salter, who is McCain's speechwriter. God, it must have been three years ago. I was living in Oakland at the time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
He was just talking about how when he would travel with McCain, you'd go to random places, like small villages and stuff, where there are people around the world that...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
where we had helped them when they were pushing back against a tyrant and and it was something they remembered and it gave them pride and how excited they were and how grateful they were like all of those little nodes like had to add up to something right it doesn't mean that the world wanted to be perfect or you know like it would get a great result but it had to add up to something and i feel like this is just undoing we've essentially undone all of that in a month it's
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
I mean, we're meeting with the bad guys and not inviting the good guys to the table. I don't know what else other way there is to describe it. Keir Stormer in UK over the weekend expressed that, if necessary, that openness to sending peacekeeping troops in. I just mentioned that because... Just the gap between that and what you're saying from us is so wide. I guess it's not a gap. It's opposite.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
They are actually saying that we will put boots on the line if necessary to help protect Ukraine. And meanwhile, I guess Marco, little Marco and Lavrov are meeting about what Russia can get out of this deal. It's really, really something. One other foreign policy thing I just had to mention to you because it connects to the domestic that you mentioned with Elon.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Did you see the meeting between Elon and Modi? Just saw a photo of it, yeah. Okay. All you kind of need to do is see a photo. Modi, leader of India, of course, they're meeting at the Blair House. And it's like the flags are up. It's like the formal setting for a meeting between either state leaders or our secretary of state and their lead diplomat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
On the Modi side of the table, there's like all of his advisors. And on the Musk side, it's like a couple of his children. And that's it. And Trump is then asked about this meeting. And he's like, I didn't know about it. And he says, maybe they're meeting about business. I mean, like, you know, it's hard to even think about what to say about something like that, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Like, you know, all of these, like the whole conspiracy about the Biden administration, about Burisma, that Hunter was doing a deal in Ukraine and that Joe Biden like took a phone call at some point with one of the Burisma people. Yeah. And like that was the big controversy. And here we have like the shadow president meeting with a counterparty in the Blair House in like a formal setting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
And the president is saying, well, that's fine because maybe they're just doing some deals. Like the scale of corruption is just is really mind boggling. And I do think it connects to the foreign policy side of this when you talk about us being on the wrong side, because it's the type of behavior of an autocratic nation. Right. Like that's what it is. Yeah, that's very well said. Absolutely.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
All right. You've been kind of a downer. So I'm going to keep kind of leaning into that. You never know how much attention to give to stupid shit like this. But Trump bleeded over the weekend. He who saves his country does not violate any law. This was, I guess, from a 1970 movie, Waterloo, where the Napoleon character says this in the movie.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
It feels it's, I think, apocryphal, not a real Napoleon quote. It's a movie quote.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
It is clarifying. And the IRS, I mean, that situation is a little bit murky, I guess, still. But some of the more clarifying elements are some of the other things you referenced. I think it's worth talking about a few of them in particular. With regards to the National Nuclear Security Administration, so there were up to 350 employees that were laid off late Thursday. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
It is. And to your point about their opposition to liberal democracy and the different degrees, Musk was posting over the weekend about how he thinks 60 Minutes should be jailed. People from 60 Minutes should be jailed because of – it doesn't even matter, really, what the rationale was for that. It shows you where their head's at.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
So you're kind of alluding there to your request from others to speak out. You addressed this directly over the weekend. You wrote, without going all Martin Niemöller, I do think it's bad not to speak up for immigrants, transgender Americans, civil servants, women, Ukraine, and everyone that the MAGA bullies are going after. We're beyond picking and choosing who to defend.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
It's time to stand up and speak out. Do you want to expand on that a little bit? I guess should we leave people with a little bit of a stiffened spine, a lesson from Niemöller? I don't think it's so hopeless.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
They showed up to the office Friday and were locked out. One of the hardest hit offices was the Pantex plant near Amarillo, Texas. The employees there work on reassembling warheads, one of the most sensitive jobs across the nuclear weapons enterprise with the highest levels of clearance.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
We'll leave it there. Phil Crystal will be back next Monday. I'm sure there'll be another parade of horrors to discuss then. Everybody else, we'll be back tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
As of this morning, the administration has decided that that was an oopsie-doops, and they're going to try to bring back all but 28. But there's some kind of HR and legal questions about how to do that. Just to your original point, this is not about efficiency. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
I'm sympathetic to the idea that there are some bureaucrats that maybe are cashing a government paycheck and aren't providing value at the level of their compensation. I do not think that is the case for the people that are reassembling the nuclear warheads. And I don't think anybody would consider that. But I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Maybe Elon thinks big balls or one of his 19-year-olds could reassemble nuclear warheads better. I'm not sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
How are you doing, Bill? I'm hanging in there. How are you? I'm doing well. Do you have any other... What kind of name changes you're thinking about?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Part of the problem, though, is it's happening so quickly, it's hard to get enough of an outcry to focus on a particular thing. So just a couple of other examples. The FAA. We've had like... Six plane crashes recently? I don't know. We didn't have a plane crash for 16 years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
We had, obviously, the horrific one outside of Reagan National in D.C., but then a couple of other smaller incidents recently. The Trump administration has started firing several hundred FAA probationary employees who maintain the air traffic control infrastructure. We've been discussing the CDC and NIH cuts, which just seem draconian.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
This one caught my eye over the weekend, Veterans Crisis Hotline employees. This is an individual person posting on their social media. I'm devastated. Last night, myself and many others at the Veterans Crisis Line were terminated without warning. I mean, that, again, seems like a valuable service.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
So when all of this stuff is happening so fast, it is a little challenging to create the dust that's necessary to get them to backtrack, I guess. And I think that's probably their point. I don't think they mind backtracking in a couple of cases because a bunch of other stuff ends up flying under the radar. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Yeah, I mean, I think that you're right about, or this Democrat you talked to is right about, they do seem to be thinking a lot about the budget fight that is coming up. And I had Brendan Boyle over on the YouTube feed at the end of last week, who's the ranking member on the budget committee. And I think he's sharp on this. And I think that their strategies are making sense.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
And later in the week, we're going to have other folks from the Hill on to talk about what the Democrats are doing. People that I think are doing a good job. That said... There was a big Politico story over the weekend on this about how far the Democrats are behind on messaging and platforms, particularly in the online media world. And I was quoted in there. And what I said was basically.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Anything that you tell me they're doing well, they should be doing 700x with that much more intensity. It's just the amount that Trump and Musk are in people's faces. I mentioned this the other day, but I was scrolling through one of my sports podcasts I listen to, and it was a non-political comment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
It was just like the guy on this Barstool podcast was saying, he's like, I'm so fucking sick of Elon Musk. He's like, I just don't want to hear about him anymore. He's like, I feel like the only people I ever hear about are Taylor and Travis and Elon Musk. And it's like on somebody that's not political, the show doesn't talk about politics.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
And I think that that's just a telling anecdote, though, about volume and just how much of the messaging from Trump and Elon is just seeping in to casual Americans. And Democrats are doing some stuff on the Hill and in these town halls, but they're
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
These examples, the Veterans Crisis Hotline, the FAA, nuclear, these are all things that if you're really banging the drum, I do think just regular people are like, why are we firing the Veterans Crisis Line? Is that really what's going to resolve our trillion-dollar budget gap? It doesn't feel like it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Yeah, we're not recognizing President's Day. We're dead naming the Gulf of Mexico. That's just kind of how things are going here. Much to discuss, I guess, it seems like. Your newsletter this morning was focused on all of the – trouble that has been being created from Elon Musk's quasi-governmental Department of Government Efficiency.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Swing at every pit. I might do the meme where it's like, it don't make me tap the sign again, which is that like, actually, yes, swing at every pitch right now. I mean, maybe don't swing at every pitch on labor day of 2026, but like right now I start, well, not, we're really going to beat this metaphor to death, but do anything that, And see what sticks. We don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
We can't predict what is going to stick.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Nobody last week would have been like, you know, the real thing to focus on is the National Nuclear Security Administration. Right. Like, you know, you just don't you just don't know, especially with how quickly things are moving while we're on. complaining about people on the Hill. We should also focus a little bit on the Republicans because Bill Cassidy is just going to be my cause celeb.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
I think, unfortunately, I don't, you know, because I just can't, I can't take it with him in particular. So somebody's got to talk about it. Here's a tweet he sent over the weekend. This was on Saturday. So every sentence on that I agree with, every single word on that I agree with. But here's the thing. The Kash Patel vote is tomorrow. So Cash is not mentioned in this tweet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
The only action that he can take is to vote against and maybe convince some of his colleagues to vote against or to delay the confirmation of the person who reportedly, according to whistleblowers, was behind the downsizing at the FBI that he's so upset about. So Bill Cassidy, if you're pissed about this, if you think it hurts Louisiana, then vote against Kash Patel.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Happy Washington's birthday, 2025. While we're changing the names of things, we're no longer observing President's Day here. We're going back to the original, the traditional Washington's birthday observed. It's not actually Washington's birthday, but, you know, details. And because it's a Monday, I'm here with Bill Kristol.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Or go out and do interviews about how Kash Patel needs to come clean about whether he was involved in this. And that we need to have another round of hearings to ask Kash Patel what his plans are for the staffing of the FBI. I mean, like, this is your moment. Like, you have a moment now for 24 hours. Now, obviously, he's not going to do anything. So I don't want to pretend like...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
We might think that he could, but like, this is the window for him to do something about this. And instead it's just this limp tweet that doesn't even actually address the person who's responsible.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Many different specifics I think worth getting into, but I'm just at the highest level interested in what you are trying to get across.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
Ezra Klein had a column over the weekend about how the Republicans on the Hill have become non-player characters, which are like the characters in the video game that don't do anything. They just exist. And that is correct. It is kind of a marvel that they have just decided that they have no – role at all.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
And it's interesting because it is interesting to see the McConnell, you know, play on this. I mean, obviously I have no sympathy for him or I'm not at all moved or inspired by his 11th hour effort to be the one person that votes against these various Trump nominees.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Taking A Wrecking Ball to the Government
But when he was majority leader, you know, he at least tried to exercise some power, oftentimes in ways I disagreed with, sometimes in ways that was good during Trump 1.0. That is gone. You know, I mean, John Thune might as well not exist.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
You should be angry. And the admires is a good word because you sense this in the run the interview that there is like a you got to hand it to him kind of thing. Like I ran for president. They rejected me like Trump must be doing something that I wish I could have done. And that is the thing that is the most dispiriting about all of it and a little bit enraging.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It's like if good old-fashioned Mormon church-going, milk-drinking, follow-the-rules Mitt Romney cannot just internalize that sometimes people are rewarded for doing things that are wrong, which is the basic moral of... Like every children's book. I'm sure plenty of Mormon texts. Plenty of adult books. Yeah, plenty of adult books.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And you got to hand it to him now and just say, all right, well, Trump got this one right because he more successfully preyed on people's grievances and bigotries than I did. It makes me upset. Also, just one last thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Hold down the fort. There is enough news. The theme of the show today is going to be pre-capitulation and people's just total unwillingness to buck up for the fight ahead of us. It begins with our friends at ABC News. The backstory on this, for people who haven't watched it closely, is I guess George Stephanopoulos
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
A great deal. Here's one more. Joe Biden posted this over the weekend. I have no idea why. He wrote this. I pray to God that the president-elect throws away Project 2025. I think it would be an economic disaster. I believe the only way for a president to lead America is to lead all of America. Again, what is this? What is this? Why are we doing this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Why are you doing a smiling picture with Donald Trump? Why are you doing a post about how you hope that he will throw away Project 2025? He's appointed all the people that did Project 2025 to the administration. And then you're singling out the economic part of it. What are you even talking about? It's just this fake, nicey-nicey shit with Trump is endemic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It is like from the Disney people to the sitting president to Romney. They're all doing this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Oh, we pray. Maybe Donald Trump will turn the corner. Year 9. He'll throw away Project... What are you talking about?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It does feel that way. You talked on the conversations with Bill Kristol with Jack Goldsmith, who is over at Lawfare and a Harvard professor who knows this stuff well. I'm just going to cop to the fact that I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. It's on my list while I'm in between trips to the bathroom tonight. But did Jack have any insight on that front?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
He talked about how Trump was found liable for rape and technically he was adjudicated as for sexual assault in a civil suit. And the judge in rendering the verdict on that did essentially say, did say that colloquially what we're talking about here is rape. The judge said that during the judge's verdict, but it was not technically the case, you know, based on the actual verdict.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Excited to listen to that. We'll put a link in the show notes. From big events to silly moments you capture every day, doesn't it sometimes feel like all your favorite photos are just stuck on your camera roll? Wouldn't it be great to have an easy way to share and enjoy them with friends and family? That's where Aura comes in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
I was posting them on Instagram for a while that, you know, now that I'm a content creator, my Instagram has been overtaken by my takes. And so, you know, you need a place to go. You need a place to spend the good ones, the cute pictures of my daughter, you know, the fun pictures with my pals, because I still get to have fun from time to time. And the aura frame is
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. I want to go and talk about a couple of news items or thoughts from the progressive wing of the Democratic Party and try to position Woke Bill Kristol as far left as possible just to prove all of your enemies right. Here's Bernie this morning on The Morning Show.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Huge. Sometimes I just, you know, I was watching the clip and I was like, you got to hand it to Bernie. I don't know. I want to hear what Bill Kristol thinks about that. It's hard to argue with that right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
So Trump sued ABC over this and ABC settled this defamation lawsuit for $15 million. And I just think this is going to have real ramifications. And I guess we'll just start there with your opening thoughts on that bill. It's really terrible.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
besides getting you and Bernie on the record as being on the same side on this one, was I'm sympathetic to the fact that this is actually a more fruitful ground for Democrats and all of us that are trying to challenge this incoming administration than some of this other stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
The brazenness in which they're doing this, just tying this back to the whole Romney thing about the middle class and the guy you're talking about, it's like... It didn't stick with Trump in the first term in any way that he had all these Goldman Sachs people around him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
But I feel like it's just so much more brazen this time that it feels like something that eventually people are going to be like, this is out of control.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yo, there's so much of our info out there on the internet these days. Something that we've been talking about. It's coming up in conversations I'm having with people who I think are taking additional cautionary steps in the wake of our new regime. So one product I've been telling them about, and I've even had a few gift subscriptions to give away, is DeleteMe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me, now at a special discount for our listeners and their loved ones. Today, get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and use promo code bulwark at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
That is joindeleteme.com slash bulwark code bulwark. AOC on the younger end of the spectrum. There's a lot of discussion right now about how she is trying to get a spot on the oversight committee and that there should be Democratic turnover. And the other congressman that wants that gavel is Jerry Connolly, more of an old line Democrat type.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Do you have any grand thoughts on whether the Democrats should be turning over gavels to AOC and be more mindful of generational change on the Hill?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, I'm of mixed views. On the one hand, I strongly believe that the Democrats on the Hill have been too timid over the last eight or nine years and that they should be much more aggressive in oversight and tactics.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And this is like the question that I ask every Democratic congressman that wants to come on this podcast is, you know, are you going to work with Mike Johnson and bail them out when they can't fund the government? Are you going to, you know, push investigations? I just think that they've been too timid. in particular on the Hill during the Trump era. And so will AOC be more, you know, aggressive?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Will she be better at getting attention for the corruption stuff that we've just been talking about? Absolutely. She also is, you know, she lets loose, which I like. But sometimes she lets a little too loose, you know. And if you follow her social media feeds, I mean, there's stuff that she does.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
I just don't think that gets that much attention now that I think would get a lot of attention if she was, you know, running this committee or running for president as far as, you know, kind of really.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
eye rolly type identity politics type stuff that she does some of her messaging around the luigi united health care thing was a little you know makes me cringe a little bit that's the kind of balance right i don't know you know but maybe you have to take the good with the bad and something like this but i do think that particularly for the oversight thing i'm not as unlike you i'm not as hostile to it as as one might think i agree with the way you put it
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, I've got some issues about that head to head, but we can do a 2028 hot stove another time. All right. Well, do you have any thoughts on the drones? People are concerned. People are seeing stars. Larry Hogan saw Orion's belt and thought it was a drone.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Twitter that saw lots of lights over the Capitol is very concerned. It was just those planes landing at Reagan. So I don't know. Do you have any worries? Do you have any friends on the inside that can provide any state secrets to our listeners?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
I think it's literally that, but I'm open to aliens. You know, it's been a weird month. So let's mix things up. I don't know. We might welcome them as liberators. We'll see. Bill Crystal, thank you so much for doing this on Sunday afternoon for me. We will wait. I won't see you next week. We'll be on a holiday next week. We'll see you in two weeks for the Borg podcast. Enjoy the holidays.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Borg podcast. I hope.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, it was Deborah O'Connell, the Disney executive who directly oversees ABC News, dined with Suzy Wiles in Palm Beach last Monday. To me, this is just... And we talked a little bit about this with Ann Applebaum on Friday. Just another example of these big... corporations deciding that it's just not worth it to draw any additional attention onto ourselves. We know that Trump is capricious.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
We know that he's vengeful. So let's try to just survive the four years. We'll tuck our tail between our legs. We'll mind our P's and Q's. A, there's no evidence that this is going to work. And in a world where you have corporate control over some of these media institutions like this, as you said, the chilling effect element of this is really staggering right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
You can't not assume that people in private conversations who go and speak about this stuff on the media and go and speak about Trump, especially people that aren't wealthy, that don't have the resources of Disney, might be like, it's just not worth it. you know, leveling criticism if it's going to bankrupt me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Several have committed a billion. Zuckerberg, others, Benioff. It's usually like the protection racket element of this, right? And it just ties all together. Like, Disney was going to win this case. And so to do it so ostentatiously, like, oh, we're going to contribute to your presidential library, sir. Let us go down on our notice, kiss the ring.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And can we contribute an additional wing to your palace that honors you? Can we put a statue? The whole thing is preposterous. And just back to the original point, just because I want to get it exactly right on what Judge Kaplan said about the rape. He said this. The finding that Ms.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Carroll failed to prove that she was raped within the meaning of New York penal law does not mean that she failed to prove that Mr. Trump raped her, as many people commonly understand the word rape. So again, like Stephanopoulos, I think, runs afoul of this by using adjudicate it. But it's a very fine line. And the standard, as you mentioned, for these public figures was
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
to defame in America it's very different in Britain and other places but like in America the standard of defamation is so high it's like really hard to imagine that they would have lost this and so like the manner in which they're doing it is just really horrible incidentally if they had lost they would have lost
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Very conspicuous as the Republicans against Trump Twitter feed that posted, I prefer to live in a country where the government fears the free press, not where the press fears the government. I thought that was really well put. Yeah. Because the first part of that is also an important category. Now that is another downstream effect of this Trump win is that the
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Republicans, and frankly not just Republicans, you're seeing this from Eric Adams, and I'm sure you'll start to see this from some Democrats. Now, because of the world in which we live, and because of the fragmentation of the media environment, the essential view of politicians now, I think, going forward is going to be, just ride out the storm. Who cares about this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Like, how much could it hurt me for the media to write about this? I think we're seeing this right now with Hegseth as a prime example of the cabinet officials. Any kind of media firestorm of this nature previously would have, would have led to just the quiet stepping down of the, of the nominee and replacement with somebody else.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It is, um, I think dangerous to kind of the, the short medium term of our body politic. If you are in a place where both of those things are true, the politicians have stopped being worried that they're going to be held accountable and the press who ostensibly exists to hold accountable, uh, is now panicked that they'll be targeted. And so they're not even going to do their job.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, and the bad news came right on the heels of the announcement that they want to make standard time permanent. So it was a really ominous 24 hours. Where are you on that? Oh, permanent daylight saving. It's my number one issue. Did you lose or for you? We did a whole YouTube video on this, which you can watch. But since then, I saw a graphic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Hello and welcome to Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday when you're listening to this. So we have Bill Kristol. It is Sunday and we're taping it. I'm hangry. I'm quite hungry, actually. I haven't been able to eat all day. I've got to clean out my whole system because I have one of those middle-aged men procedures tomorrow. And so, you know, if J.D.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And it's like in June now with permanent standard time, the sun will be coming up at 4.15 a.m., This is insane. Nobody wants this. We like our evening sun. Okay, I'm going to move forward. While I'm hangry, while I'm upset about daylight saving and ABC and Deborah O'Connell, Mitt Romney was on State of the Union this morning. God love him. I just kind of want to strangle him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
I mean, I want to strangle him like you want to strangle a loved one, though. Just like, why? Let's just listen. Let's listen to Mitt and Jake Tapper.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
So this is obviously enraging because it was the premise of him not endorsing during the campaign was that he wanted to have an impact on the Republican Party going forward. Now he's already conceded that that's over because Donald Trump won. I don't really know that Mitt's, given what we know about the election at this point, that Mitt's endorsement would have mattered one way or the other.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
That said, couldn't hurt. And the thing that bugs me the most about this, though... It's just going back to this capitulation. It's like, okay, well, it is what it is. I'm backing off my comments about how disgusted and horrified I am about Donald Trump and J.D. Vance. And even though I'm leaving the Senate now, I'm going to make nice.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And we're going to, you know, hopefully, you know, these are smart guys. I'm going to be able to figure out, like, what purpose is served by this? What is the point of this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It's just this false hope, right? Like on the one hand, the false hope annoys me, like this idea that, oh, we're going to be able to work with these guys. And, you know, who knows? It's better not to, you know, ruffle feathers. So let's just kind of see how it plays out. Like that part is annoying to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
In particular, because I just, I don't think that's going to be true, but more it completely, I kind of invalidates all the arguments against Trump and Vance that he made. He made these deep moral and ethical arguments about Donald Trump, the man about the way that JD Vance has humiliated himself about how the illiberalness of their ideology is wrong and,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Vance starts shooting at the drones or some other nominee is creeped on a woman for the cabinet and like that all gets announced Monday morning, you'll have to wait for my fresh take on Tuesday. So, me and Bill. Bill and I are both working through ailments for you on a Monday. How are you doing, Bill? I'm doing fine. Thanks, Tim. Good luck with everything tomorrow. I'm going to be fine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And like to just turn around then and be like, well, you know, they won. So we'll see how it goes. It makes people wonder, like, well, were you genuine before about when you made those arguments? Because how does A meet B? You know, and when you say what you want about Liz Cheney, when you see her doing interviews now. she's not backing off anything that she said before.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And you can throw in a sentence at the end that's like, well, I hope to be wrong. I hope to be wrong. Whatever. Great. I hope to be wrong. We're not wrong, though. And we've already been proven right once. We're going to be proven right again. And so why? It almost plays into their hands by saying, see, these guys didn't even believe it. It was just rhetoric. It was just political rhetoric.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Hey, everybody. It is Bill Crystal Monday, but Bill is traveling. So on Sunday, I sat in with him on a new thing he's doing on Sunday on our Substack page, which is live conversations around noon Eastern time. So if you haven't checked those out yet, please go to thebork.com. You don't have to subscribe to watch it, but we'd love for you to subscribe and check out our conversation from yesterday.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
You, you know, a little bit more than me. I'm pretty much persona non grata in this world. But, like, you talk still to, like, national security Republican types, right? Some of them still chat with you. Like, what... Where are they? And we have a big budget thing that coming up this week, March 14, they're going to need to pass a continuing resolution to keep the government open.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm a little worried about the lights in here. I'm going to be sweating through at the end of the podcast. You need some good material because we're clipping your clips today, not mine. I don't think I'm going to look good. All right. The last time we spoke. I don't know if you remember. Well, I mean, we've texted or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
It only takes three House Republicans to say, hey, I'm going to vote for this. But like the string attached here is that we got to do Intel sharing again, or we have to at least provide the weapons that have already been budgeted, right? You know, and it can be a small thing, right? But like, I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
I mean, like, what are you hearing from that world that just is just not worth fighting with the mad king?
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Lisa wasn't a very significant role that he was voting to confirm a clown for, he or she, I guess. Lisa was just the director of national intelligence.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
I want to get to Elon and Doge probably. We've mentioned it a couple times because I don't think I actually said it. Elon tweeted, be quiet, small man, at the Polish foreign minister. Again, what are we doing? The shadow president is just berating on social media the Polish foreign minister who is just out there saying, hey, I paid for Starlink, so you can't take it away because I paid.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Yeah, he might just turn it off. I feel like maybe this is wrong. I don't know why this exists in my memory, but maybe not during this campaign, but like at a time you were kind of Elon curious. No, never. You've always been Elon in curious.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
So, okay. Well, then that gives you clarity of vision here. One thing I guess you have been curious of that we all have are is streamlining the government. Yes. So what do you make of his effort to do that thus far?
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
But the last time we spoke on the podcast was the day after the Kamala debate. Simpler times. Wow. Yeah, I know. I know. It feels like a lifetime ago or even another Earth. I wonder what you make now of just the biggest picture, like the first seven weeks. How does it match or change your expectations? Is there anything in there? Any green shoots? I don't know. Just anything. Top line.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
I think that he likes that this guy is the richest person in the world and he lands rockets and he hates the same people Trump does.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
The one cool... The cool landing was cool, I guess. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Yeah, okay. Well, you know, it's a hidden miss. I think Trump... Now we're getting deep into psychoanalyzing Trump, which I don't like to do. But like... Trump sees himself as the rich guy that wasn't respected by the other rich guys in New York. And I think that Elon and him have this in common.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Elon's also been very successful in these dumb liberals that didn't invite us to their parties or whatever, blah, blah, blah. I think that there's something to that. There might also be something to the heat shield element of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Here's the other thing. When I interviewed Bannon back in December, He was very – because he hates Elon. Yeah, right. Right? But, like, he made this point that I take also, which is that, like, in addition to being a heat shield, he's also Trump's hammer right now financially. Right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
And, like, I think that unlike any of these other people that have been around Trump and embarrassing him at various levels – None of them had their own base of support. Elon has its own Twitter base of support. Do you really want to get mad at him and have him sicking people on you? He does seem erratic. He has his own financial support. Boots on the ground. It wasn't even just writing a check.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
He was out there doing organizational stuff. You could use him to intimidate somebody that's not going to support your agenda, not that they seem to really care about legislation at this point since they're just doing everything by fiat. So I do think that there's some element of that, too, that Elon has a little bit more leverage than any of these other Trump people ever have.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Here's the other thing about Doge. Here's just a prime example of the ridiculousness. I don't know if you saw this. This was Friday afternoon. Tom Cole, who's like one of these old line Republicans that's still around. You kind of forget he's still in there. He's from Oklahoma. He's the chairman of the Appropriations Committee. So, you know, powerful. And he wrote this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
After working closely with Doge, I'm thrilled to announce that common sense has prevailed. as the National Weather Center in Norman, the Social Security Administration office in Lawton, and the Indian Health Service offices in Oklahoma City will remain operational, blah, blah, blah. He goes on. And Chris Murphy posts about this and is like, this is an insane system. It's a petition to the king.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
That's how we're going to do this thing? This is a very un-American system where it's just like, Elon's going to go in with a flamethrower and start burning everything to the ground and you can get your thing rebuilt and if you happen to be the Appropriations Committee chair from Oklahoma.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
But, you know, there are Social Security Administration offices in places that don't have representatives like Tom Cole or have Democratic representatives or have insane MAGA representatives. And so I guess those are just going to go away.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
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The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
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The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
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The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
I think as I mentioned the last time we did this ad, I'm going to Europe this summer. I try to fit in. It's important to try to fit in. Some people just lean into the tourist thing. I try to fit in. I'm monitoring the outfits. I'm monitoring what folks are wearing. I made a whole outfit switch when I went to Seville one time because I was noticing all the kids were just wearing all gray.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
I thought that was very hip. Anyway, I haven't quite pinned down where we're going yet. We're working on finalizing it. Once we do, I'm going to be turning back to Babel. I've been behind on my French, I do have to admit. A lot's been happening out there. You can't really blame me. Just to make sure I can do some ordering, right? Just make sure I can do the basics. It's important to try.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
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The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash bulwark spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash bulwark. babbel.com slash bulwark. Rules and restrictions may apply. So here's somebody else that might be able to get in their way. At least Elon's way, not Trump's way. Tesla's stock is down. 25% this month. And here's a rant from your boy, Dave Portnoy of Barstool Sports.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
He was on, I think he was on Fox Business or one of these shows. And I just want to play a little clip from it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Yeah, I mean, Tesla's down another 8% as we speak right now. When that rant was going, Tesla's at 280-something. It's at 239 as we talk right now. So it was already going down when Portnoy did that rant. It's going down a bunch since then. There's maybe something there. Maybe he'll be able to be bullied out by his fiduciary responsibility to his company. No?
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
What do you make of the corruption side of this? I, I kind of hate the question of like, will this have political salience? It's kind of like, who cares? It's a long time away, but I, I do just wonder how the port noise of the world and like these more soft mag, it's maybe even unfair to call them soft bag, but whatever, like the, the people that were, that got caught up in Trump, uh,
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
you know, that were less ideological about it. Let's put it that way. Yeah. You know, they don't like the corruption. Apparently, Musk had 32 investigations into his companies when Trump took power. All of them are being quashed. I've talked a bunch about this Justin Sun guy. He's a Chinese crypto magnet that's put 50 plus million into Trump's worthless various crypto, you know, grifts.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
And now the SEC isn't investigating him. And I think this is just the tip of the iceberg of the corruption that's going to happen on all this stuff. I don't know. Do you think that there's going to be some salience there, or do we just live in a kleptocracy now?
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
The Hunter Biden paintings. That was some corruption.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Like, it's crazy. I mean, the real explanation is that for most of these people, it didn't matter. It was team jerseys, and you're putting your team jersey on, whatever. And it's like, this is just like the most extreme. It's like a sociological experiment. It really is. Of that. It's like, how ridiculous could we make?
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Like, how ostentatious could we make the corruption and demonstrate that you still don't actually care? Like, we'll have the president start a worthless coin eight hours before he becomes president.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
And let shadowy foreign governments and individuals pay him for this worthless coin. Millions upon tens of millions of dollars. And we'll just say, do you care about that? Or did you just care about the Mark Rich part?
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Well, while we're discussing Democrats, I do have one Democrat to pick on today just because I just think it was just such a prime example when I was watching this sick over the weekend of like why it's important for everybody to get out of their bubble. You know, you got to get out of your bubble a little bit. Oh, good. Tell me who offended. I love these. It's Stacey Abrams.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
If you get stuck in your bubble. And then you start to make arguments.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Exactly. That don't make any sense. Okay. And you have to at least be able to hear the critiques. Even if you grant that like 94.7% of the mega critiques are bad faith or BS, you got to at least listen to them so that you can understand how to push back on them. And so that you can kind of address the 5% that accidentally were legit. Yeah. So here it is. Stacey Abrams, I guess, got $1.9 billion.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
She was the head of this group. And Chris Hayes, in a very friendly way, just kind of asked her to explain what all the hubbub was about. I wanted to play for you her explanation of how she was going to use the $1.9 billion taxpayer dollars.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Plenty of judgment to go around here on the Bollard Pod.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
So DeSoto, Georgia has 116 homes in it, in the town. Okay. So, I mean, I guess it seems good what happened in that. Scalable. Scalable. It seems good what happened in that trial program. But it's like, okay, so what do we do? Okay. What's the plan? I guess if you came to me and said, our plan was to give 2 million poor people new appliances. Mm-hmm.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
I probably would have said, okay, that seems like a dumb program. I mean, that seems like a good program for a nonprofit, the Gates Foundation could do that or whatever. But if it's the government, it's like maybe we should just give them cash or not do that or pay down the debt or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
It's just like we have this very convoluted system where we're going to replace toasters in homes for $1.9 billion. I just don't think that anybody who is not totally in the tank would listen to that and be like, great point. And if you listen to that minute-long explanation and compare it to Donald Trump just being like, Stacey Abrams got $1.9 billion to give people toasters.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Also, there's just so much happening. So many niche topics like I can't even get to on the pod. We are doing these one-off hot takes and sometimes they're hot takes and sometimes they're like interviews that are deeper dives on issues that we just can't get to on the pod on our YouTube page. But we started the Bulwark Takes podcast feed.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
The crime issue was getting better by the time Biden, by the end of the Biden campaign.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
That's very good. And I would add on the list of problems that the American people have, I did not notice a big clamoring that was like, I really want the government to give me a new microwave. What I really need right now is a new high efficiency microwave. And I want to do it at scale.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Energy efficient oven. It's going to cut $60 off my monthly bill. My buddies that are in, who I love, by the way, that are in renewable, you know, kind of hedge fund world are going to be mad at me for this one, shaking their finger. But I actually, I just want to reiterate, I'd support this as a nonprofit effort. Yes. As an effort in the private sector.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Figure out ways, raise some cash, go do this. Great.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Something simple. I'm fine with it. It's just, you know, that's just not the best explanation that you can come up with. I think the right explanation is just to not do interviews, if that was really the best you had. I want to move on to Andrew Tate, who is a real fucking loser and makes Stacey Abrams look like you should get a Stacey Abrams candle by comparison.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
This guy and his brother are back in the country. You hate to hand it to Ron DeSantis, but they came to Florida, and Ron DeSantis was like, no, this is not Florida. We're going to investigate you. So good on Ron DeSantis. But then he heads out to Vegas. Dana White, who's now on the meta board – Gives him a welcome to the States boys bro hug when he arrives at USC fight Kash Patel.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
The director of the FBI is at the fight just sitting near these two predators that had trafficked women.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
And kept them in a fucking video prostitute home. Yeah, bragged about it. Bragged about it. J.D. Vance, I noticed you pointed out, follows one of them on Twitter. Both of them. Oh, Tristan and Andrew. Yep. This is fucking sick. This is sick. Going back to our top thing also, this has been a priority. They could have just ignored this one.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
But the administration decided, no, bringing Andrew Tate and Tristan Tate back to the states... was an important negotiating thing that they needed to do with Romania. And now they're all kind of bro-ing out in Vegas.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Yeah, and I thought the most telling exchange about this was Gates posted something about DeSantis and basically said that DeSantis is virtue signaling. It's total nihilism, right? Like there's nothing that is worth defending just on the merits.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Well, and those things are connected, right? I mean, like the types of people he's putting in is contributing to the disorder. Yeah. Surprise is never the right word because I expected an utter collapse. Like I expected everything to go to shit. I didn't know exactly in what manner it would, you know, but I just, everything that Trump has ever done has ended in disaster.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Speaking of terrible people, our HHS secretary, RFK, he's been kind of quiet. I've been noticing we haven't maha'd a bunch, but we do have a new measles case in Maryland. Right. And then we've got the Department of Ag. A new character for our show is Brooke Rollins. I don't feel like anybody gives this woman enough attention. She's the secretary of agriculture. She posted on Instagram.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
I feel like this is related to RFK. You'll see why. Yep. I know we're going. Rollins told the Breitbart News that Trump's administration will be focusing its egg price reduction efforts on repopulation of chickens. And that administration is now ruling out any vaccines for animals against avian bird flu. We've actually just come up with like a vaccine for chickens, I guess, in February.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
It's been finally approved. And the Ag Secretary is saying, nope, not going to do this. I don't know. We're worried that Bill Gates is going to get his microchips into the chicken, which will get into your Popeyes, which will then get into your system. I don't exactly know the rationale for not doing that. So, no, we're not going to vaccinate the chickens. And we've got measles in Maryland.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Yes. Just get a little in your backyard. Get some wire.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Get a little crate. The lumber for your little crate is going to cost a little more because we're tariffing Canada now. But that's okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
It's pretty bad. Do you have any other, any other RFK, any other Maha thoughts?
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
We keep our eye on RFK. Our final topic, it's kind of a big thing. I mostly just wanted to point our listeners to it because it's very interesting. Noah Smith, who we've had on, wrote a Substack post. The thesis of it is basically that the liberal world order from FDR essentially through 2015. Like now, now he's a little bit of distance.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Like basically, except for the reality TV show where he pretended to be something that he Right. So I figured it would end in disaster. The fact that we are seven weeks in and we have this economic shit show, I think is the thing to me that is the most interesting. I mean, the market is down again right now as we tape. We'll see. Obviously, that could change in the afternoon.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
It seems like with Trump's election in 2016, that might like be the end of that era. And there's this question about what will replace it. You know, I think he's of the view. I still have the hope that, that we could be cobbled back together, looking worse and worse every day. But if the view is that something else is going to replace that, he points out, I think pretty sharply that like MAGA is,
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
cannot actually be the thing that replaces it because it's a destructive force and that they haven't actually built anything they don't seem to be capable of building anything it's a very long think piece but i think it's important you know kind of start to wrap our heads around you know both that question whether mega is capable of doing this and and if not that what so i just wanted to see if you had any deep thoughts on that you want to leave us with well yeah
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
I mean, the market has been getting crushed. Our trading partners are fucking pissed. There is total instability. There's not been any focus on like, you know, the side of Trump that's like the ribbon cutting guy. You know, we haven't had that side of Trump at all. Like there's been none of that. Like we're going to build new stuff here.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Yeah. That could be messy, too. And at some level, there is some weak links, but some links between Orban and Bolsonaro, though he's out now, and Le Pen and Maloney and Farage. And so maybe there's something that kind of emerges out of all that. But I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
To me, the most interesting thing about it, and why I wanted to raise it, besides just recommending to listeners that they go check it out, is that I essentially agree with the premise that... And I think Bannon does, too, who is, I think, really the person that is most in touch with the actual ideology, to the extent there is any with MAGA, is that it's a destructive movement.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
I think that is the right thing. And it is not really... is that really prescriptive at all about like once we tear down the administrative state, once we tear down the Western alliances, once we get rid of these liberal elites that everybody hates, then it's kind of like, we'll see what happens. Like, honestly, we'll see what happens. We're going to tear down this order and rebuild something new.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
And some people have thoughts. Yeah. Some people have thoughts within the movement, but there's no cohesiveness. And I just think that like, because of that, it will leave us assuming we get rid of this guy and get over it with kind of like a really open aperture, like both on the right and on the left for like different types of things to fill it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
And in some ways, this is why I wanted to leave with this. In some ways that is exciting. I don't know. My small C conservatism is like, it's like scary.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
in some ways because it's like i thought the old order was like pretty good i had some complaints on the edges but i could have stuck with the old order but if you accept the thesis i do think that there's an opportunity there for somebody that wants to seize it so anyway i don't know do you have any final thoughts on that or is that good i do too and i think i was trying to get at that like there's going to be such a vacuum um
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
there's really been pretty little focus even on like the regulation cutting. And occasionally I can mention that, but like, yeah, it's like on across every metric that has been a shit show. And like this weekend, you have Maria Barrett Romo, like basically being like, I think a recession is coming to him. I mean, Maria Bart, right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
It was important and on brand for the Borg podcast that you take us to the dark note to end, because I agree. Will we survive it? Open question. It's a fair question. We'll be discussing it every day, even when I have the flu. Thank you, Essie Cup, for carrying me today. Let's do this again soon.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
I'm doing my best. Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow. I'm going to do it. I'll be here with the newest member of the Borg. I'm very excited. I think you guys are going to like him. So we'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
I mean, this is, I mean like, and she was like one of the most insane people during the stop, the steel things. So, so some reality is breaking in on her show. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
That in itself is a sign of just very dire economic circumstances, I would think, right? Yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
So anyway, I don't know. What do you make about the economic situation?
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
If you go and search Bulwark Takes on your podcast player of choice and subscribe to it, you can get kind of one-off conversations. You know, if maybe I'm talking to somebody from Canada, or I talked to that guy who's reporting from Kiev last week, those types of conversations, you can get those on the Bulwark Takes feed. So go check that out. All right, up next, SE Cup.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
That feels like a lot. I don't know. It felt less.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Mel McKinley was in there and complaining that the Democrats don't clap for him.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
The very online posters, I think, is who it's for. On the crime thing, which I didn't even have on my list, but it's a great point. It's been the opposite. I mean, he's let out a lot of criminals.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
So he's let out a lot of criminals, and they've stopped. They've said that they're going to stop investigating certain types of crimes to the DOJ. Yes. A lot of white collar crimes.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
So that's something they're going to do. And there's been no focus on like the getting criminal, like the cracking down on criminals.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
And the FBI, people getting fired from the FBI. Yeah. The Doherty situation, the guy in the New York FBI office was very well regarded. He was forced into retirement, reasons unclear. It could be related to retribution. It could be related to the fact that he did some Russia investigations. All of that is sure to come out.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
But he gets a standing ovation walking out of the New York office over the weekend. And it's like... That's right. So, yeah. So, like, they're firing law enforcement officials. They're defunding the police. Like, the federal police. Like, investigate real crimes. That's right. Not like D.C. desk jockey, whatever, blah, blah, blah, deep state. Like, guys out in the field arresting criminals.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
They're getting rid of them. So... Yeah, no, I hear you. And that immigration thing, you can, I guess, give them whatever Mark's on, but like the economy, and he's on, again, they've now stuck into this message. They're going to the Biden message, even worse. They're like, well, there's the transitory. Now we're into transitory messaging. They've already gotten into that six weeks in, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
That they're like, oh, well, it's gonna... there's going to be a little short-term pain. There's going to be a little short-term transition. And then Trump, on the tariff thing, I don't know where you are on this, but there are still a lot of people out there that think he's bluffing, he's bluffing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
But on the plane last night, when he was asked about this, he basically says the tariffs are going to be what gets everybody rich. And he keeps falling back on that. And I think he believes it. So to me, it's going to get worse before it gets better.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Me too. All right, now moving on to the most outrageous stuff of the first seven weeks here in Ukraine. So the intelligence sharing is still not happening. We paused that, I guess, to create enough suffering in Ukraine to force Zelensky to surrender. Zelensky said that Russian forces launched 1,200 glide bombs
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. You might notice I'm sounding more masculine this morning. I'm on day two of the flu. And so I'm excited to have the laugher with me today because I need someone who can carry me on this podcast. And I found the right person.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
870 drones and over 80 missiles of various types at Ukrainian targets over the past week since we stopped the intelligence sharing. A higher percentage of those have gotten through. Trump said last night, it could be back soon. Wait and see. We'll see. I mean, it's pretty just sick what is happening right now. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Yeah, I want to get to the alliances next, but just one more thing on the deal, the supposed deal. So they're in Saudi, I guess, this week.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Again, I guess we've decided to do this on Russia's home court. Yeah, right. A lot of countries could have pegged to do the negotiations, but we're to do it on... Was North Korea booked? Yeah, we're to do it on an autocrat's home court. And there's mixed messages on whether the intelligence sharing can come back in. But the deal that is being leaked, and who knows, I hope maybe it'll be better.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
We could always hope. But it's essentially... that Ukraine surrenders, Russia gets the territory. Ukraine gives us the rare earth minerals in the hopes that that will mean that we will defend them. But we won't give them any security guarantees. And we might start giving them weapons again And we might start giving them Intel sharing again.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
And they have to have elections or another option would be for Slensky to resign. So the short of it is basically surrender, resign, and pay us a ransom. That's like the opening gambit here in the art of the deal.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
She's a political commentator for CNN, contributor to their new show, Table for Five, host of the Off the Cup podcast, which gets off the news, which we all need. It's Essie Cup. What's up, girl?
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
Yeah, well, here's where it goes. I mean, the Europeans breaking from us. So I've talked a bunch of the last week about France, what they've been saying, there is a report out high level British sources are saying that they think it's time to stop doing the five eyes intelligence sharing with the US. Yeah, Romania is maybe not our most important ally.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
But I thought that this was an interesting quote from Romania. The butcher in the White House is knowingly weakening Ukraine's defense capacities in order for Putin to strike cities.
The Bulwark Podcast
S.E. Cupp: The Outrage Is the Point
That's pretty blunt there from Romania. The Polish foreign minister is in a Twitter fight with Marko and Elon. Marko is like demanding that he says thank you or the Russians will be on his border. And it's just all collapsing. It's collapsing. It's collapsing. The Western alliance, the Atlantic alliance is just collapsing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
I mean, obviously, very pressing matters for our shadow president this weekend, debating with his racist followers over your whiteness, but I wonder if you have any thoughts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
I think the team scored four points in the other three halves they played combined. So, you know, we're just trying to channel that second half energy. You know, I don't want to wear sweatpants to the game. It's a little George Costanza thing, but didn't really want to wear hard pants either. And so what I turned to was my new pair of pants from Public Rec.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Just head to public rec.com. Use code the bulwark and you're all set. Oh, and when they ask how you found them, be sure to mention our show. It really helps us out. Find your perfect fit and never compromise on comfort again. Public rec where comfort rules. to your newsletter this morning, which focused on the freezing NIH funding.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
You started it by saying that in his 2024 campaign for President Trump ran against inflation, immigration, and many allegedly woke social policies, but he didn't run against the NIH. If you search transcript of his debates and speeches, no mention of NIH, and you know what else you won't find, really, even him running against federal spending.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
The argument is that, A, there'll be real ramifications substantively, but B, also potentially political ramifications to this move in particular. Talk about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Let's just talk about the Alabama thing. Let me just interrupt you for a second. I had a reader that was flagging this for me earlier in the week last week. He wrote that the Ivy Leagues and a lot of these colleges in blue states have massive endowments, so they will weather the storm. But research intensive university in red states don't.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
And he mentioned UAB, which is University of Alabama, Birmingham. They said that UAB employs about 20% of the state of Alabama, and the local economy depends on UAB to stay in business. UAB needs the indirect cost funding that is associated with this. And lo and behold, like a day or two later, just yesterday, Katie Britt was talking to the local paper.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
And saying that while the administration works to achieve this goal at NIH, that needs a smart, targeted approach to not hinder life-saving, groundbreaking research at high-achieving institutions like those in Alabama. I mean, there you go. Will they be able to, you know, kind of intervene in this sort of situation?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
But it's really challenging when you have Elon Musk running around with a sledgehammer, you know, to come in and be like, well, we need to do this in a way that doesn't hurt UAB. I don't know how you do that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
But basically, the- And Clinton, the era of big government is over, right? There's always targeted, picking on the low-hanging fruit. But massive cuts, like across the board cuts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
He didn't run as a libertarian. Right. He ran as an anti-libertarian. That's like an illiberal, big government Republican. Yeah. The polls this weekend, we're showing that generally people think that he's following through on what he ran on in his campaign. But this stuff takes time to sink in. There has to be patience. People have to see the real impact.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
And then if the courts intervene, that's going to delay this stuff at some level, which is Good substantively, maybe delays the political benefit for the Democrats a little bit, but that's fine. There's a long time until there's more elections.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
I think that the idea that there's going to be drastic cuts to all of these like universities and communities, I just I don't think that people really recognize that. the kind of indirect impact that is going to have. We're already seeing a little bit with community health centers, et cetera, related to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
So if you're thinking about a state like Alabama, a lot of money in the healthcare system, a lot of jobs in the healthcare system, a lot of jobs still, not as many as there used to be in farming and agriculture. And it's not just the medical systems that are feeling the squeeze. Here is a viral video our friends at the Tennessee Holler posted from a farmer who is feeling the squeeze right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
I mean, again, the EQIP program, I don't know a lot about. I was asking my husband about it this morning. It seems like there's a lot of stuff that's actually not really even related directly to climate there. It's directly related to you need to move tree lines and need to do various things for conservation of the land.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Um, to me, the biggest thing that, that is pointed out here is that like this guy had a contract, right? And again, there's like negative downstream consequences of the U S government saying, well, you can't really trust us actually. You know, you might be able to plan to do this or that because we started this program, but we might just yank the program and, you know, good luck.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
You can take us to court if you want. Like the ramifications of that and the ripple effects, I think could go out a lot farther than people realize. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
There are also real tough budget questions coming up that are going to impact Trump voters. And this one voter who is concerned about maintaining their farm, person who voted for Trump, there are going to be a lot of Trump voters in rural America that are going to need the government to intervene on their behalf.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
I mean, I guess really what's the device signal. I did a YouTube interview this weekend with my, with my guy, Jeremiah Johnson, who writes a really good newsletter on, on Substack. And he was like, no, it's, it's, it's to signal to the supporters, you know, I'm going to be on your side because I'm willing to say bad things. Right. I'm willing to say really mean things. And that's a sign of loyalty.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Tom Malinowski, who we're hoping to have on later this week on the pod, wrote a really great article about how the Democrats should deal with Trump politically, a former congressman from New Jersey. He posted this. He pointed out over the weekend. Because of the tariffs in the first Trump administration, Trump needed to bail out the farmers to offset the cost of the tariffs, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
There was a $28 billion aid package that went to farmers in the last administration. $26.3 billion is the entire budget of the U.S. Department of State. So when you're talking about getting rid of waste and fraud in our foreign affairs, they bailed out farmers and it cost more than the Department of State costs in a single year. So, okay, more tariffs are coming. These other cuts are coming.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Is that going to happen again? Are they going to bail out one of the core demos of Trump supporters? Are they going to be able to find the money for that? Or are they not going to do it this time? They have a lot of challenging questions ahead on these budget matters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
And he just, like, mass-fired people. And it's like, whatever. You know, like, who cares? Like, it's a pretty basic system. We'll get efficiencies in. I'll find some 22-year-old groipers who, like, work, you know, the amount of hours that three old engineers used to work. And, like, we'll offset it with that, et cetera, et cetera.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
And, you know, the search function won't work quite as well as it used to. And, like, there'll be these little things that power users on Twitter will notice. But, like, for most people, like, the service will be the same. Like, that's not the government. That is not the government. There are certainly people within the government who you could fire and there would not be impact to regular people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
But you can't just put freezes on every program and expect there's not going to be real ramifications, including to people like at UAB, like this farmer in red America. So we'll keep watch of that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
On the tariffs, I'm going to keep banging this drum because there is a conventional wisdom that is out there right now that like the tariff thing is all fake and that Trump is just going to wave his hands and it's all it's all just press conferences. And, you know, it's like what we saw with Canada and Mexico and he's going to back off.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Well, like the China tariffs, the additional 10% on China state, like all the coverage was about how he backed off of Canada and Mexico. But the China tariff state, China imposed retaliatory tariffs over the weekend of $14 billion in U.S. goods. So that's a news item that's happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
We have an announcement later today, 25% tariffs on steel and aluminum, which does affect Canada disproportionately. And then Trump also said that he wants to impose reciprocal trade taxes on all countries that have tariffs on us. Kevin Hassett, his economic advisor, was on CNBC this morning talking about India's tariffs and how it is out of whack, the balance there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Bernie Moreno, the senator from Ohio, talked about how there's a distinction between Between the structural long-term tariffs the president is preparing this week and the, quote, punitive tariffs, or what I'd call the WWE tariffs, that he uses to threaten countries that he doesn't like.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
I think that we're going to see here, like, real, actual tariffs that impact certain industries going into effect, even if, you know, the biggest ticket items aren't happening. I don't know what you think about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Yeah, I mean, my most generous interpretation of this is, again, I know it feels like it's been years, but we're in week four. So it takes time. JBL made this argument about there's a great newsletter. I'll put it in the show notes. People didn't read it. His triad about how Democrats should fight on the USAID issue that puts it on their turf.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
And his point is like, there are earnest Christian evangelical Americans that are conservative, who dedicated their life to serving the global poor, who work for USAID or work for a program that's funded by USAID, that it is not some deep state conspiracy. It's not a woke thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
It's like a white evangelical Christian who actually wants to follow Jesus' teaching, not the fake Jesus' teaching that J.D. Vance has been promoting. Yeah. So, find those people and make them the center of this debate rather than, you know, sort of the amorphous blob. I think some of that stuff is coming.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
One other thing that just struck me from Kevin Hassett's CNBC interview this morning is Just to reiterate the point, Trump is announcing this next round of tariffs today, and Hassett, who is a more traditional Republican in his past, was out there defending it on CNBC. So to me, again, that signals they're doing this, right? That it isn't just Trump waving his hands.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
He scheduled an interview with CNBC to give a rationale for this next round of tariffs. Also in that interview... He says that he wants to fight inflation by increasing labor supply and lowering aggregate demand. That struck me because we're going to be doing mass deportations. So I don't know how we're going to increase labor supply. You might ask how we're going to increase labor supply.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
That is surprising. It's similar to how do all the Doge staffers tend to be racist? Like, you know, it's a mystery, you know? Maybe it's just kind of a random dispersion throughout society of racists and it's just kind of bad luck that they all ended up in Doge. That might be one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Kevin Hassett has an answer for that. We're going to encourage Social Security recipients to work more by getting rid of taxes on Social Security. So there you go. We're going to increase the labor supply in the country by having more seniors who are receiving Social Security who had gotten out of the workforce. incentivize them to get back in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
So, yeah, I'm telling you the Kevin assets of the world are going to be a problem for Trump. The best thing that Trump could do for Trump is just have his press conference, call people idiots and not really do anything like that's like the best thing that he could do. Unfortunately, he's got Elon and Kevin assets and of the world who are out there actually trying to do things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
And I think that is a, that's going to eventually work to his disfavor and, A couple other random firings, not probably critical political, not very effective political cudgels for the Democrats, talking about the archivist and the head of the Kennedy Center. But worth noting, at least, that Trump has gotten rid of the archivist. J.B.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
also wrote about this and why this is relevant for the triad last week. and is putting himself in charge of the Kennedy Center because, you know, he is a Broadway queen and enjoys shows and doesn't want any woke shows. He wants to go back to the classics. Big fan of Phantom of the Opera and Cats. Very masculine interest for our president.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
You're more of a Kennedy Center man than me, so I don't know if you have any thoughts on either of those firings.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Well, it's very China, right? It's like China. It's like we're not going to have feminine men anymore in our movies and TV shows. It's very similar to something that she did a couple years ago. And I guess it's not similar in the sense that he's not banning TV shows from doing it, but from this cultural institution. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It's the fourth week of Trump 2.0, somehow only the fourth week, and it's Monday. So I'm back with our editor at large, Bill Kristol. How are you doing, Bill? Is it the fourth week? It's unbelievable, actually. Time flies when you're having fun, Tim, you know? Yeah. No doubt.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Another theory is that he might be a magnet for those types of, you know, kind of volunteers to come join his merry band. Yeah, for people who missed it, that the story is pretty, I mean, it's pretty telling that this 25 year old or whatever, I literally treated I am a racist. I mean, in addition to a bunch of other heinous stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Well, I don't know if it adds up, but it is true that it's grotesque. I agree on that. The Archivist, one interesting thing, particularly...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
for, you know, more center center, right, constitutional listeners and viewers, is that the archivist actually did something pretty bold at the end of the Biden administration, which was when Biden, you know, tried to kind of wave his hands and say that the Equal Rights Amendment is now in the Constitution, and he put out a press release about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
The archivist stood up to him and said, No, like, that's not how the process works. I'm not going to include this. You can imagine, you know, her name is Colleen Shogun. You can imagine her having, you know, whatever, sympathies towards the ERA and towards the Biden administration. And Trump's coming in and saying, okay, well, I'll just go ahead and do this and let the chips fall.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
But she said, no, that was not my job. That is not in line with the way that this job is supposed to be done. And so I'm not going to do it. So you had this person that like, Did what you want a civil servant to do, right, which is follow the rules, follow the rule of law, do their job.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
And in this case, stand up to a Democratic president's effort to kind of undermine, you know, how the process is supposed to work. And three weeks later, she gets fired by some mid-level staffer, Sergio Gore, via social media. is outrageous the way that they treated her.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
And it's all because Trump is mad that the archives were in the classified documents case, you know, we're working with Jack Smith and, you know, talking to the other parts of the government as they should have been about which documents were missing. So, I mean, it's really, again, it's not a political issue, but it is fucking outrageous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
And anybody that actually cares about the Constitution and the system and the rule of law should be really outraged on behalf of Colleen Shogan.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
But it's not like woke cancel culture scolds were like looking at his tweets and being like, ooh, that's a little offensive. No, he's like, I am a racist. And it wasn't also like when he was 16. It was like last fall or last winter even. It was like three months ago that he was tweeting, I am a racist.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
As I'm sure you noticed, we're happy for JBL, Eagles fan, Eagles fans in my life. I have several, but I wanted to say something about Jalen Hurts because we don't have a lot of, at the moment, I do feel like we're desperate for people that are good role models that you can point to. This is somebody that is acting with integrity throughout our public life.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
And I don't know if you remember this, but Jalen Hurts, I think it was the 2018 college football championship. He was on Alabama. And the fact that I'm about to praise Jalen Hurts tells you a lot because I fucking don't like anybody from Alabama. And so Jalen Hurts is my one exception from Alabama. He's a starting quarterback. They're losing at halftime to Georgia.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
He gets benched, which is very rare. Like for a starting quarterback to get benched in the middle of the national championship game. His backup, Tua Tagliavoa, comes in, wins the game. Alabama ends up winning the national championship. I mean, it would have been very easy to mope. or to Salk at that point.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
But Hurts was, I just remember noticing this, like he was right there celebrating with his teammates and all the interviews. He said all the right things the next year to a start. So he transfers, he goes to Oklahoma. He ends up getting his ass beat by LSU and the national semifinals a couple of years later, tough break.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
And then goes to the pros, goes to the Superbowl the first time, two years ago for the Eagles has an amazing game. It's really the rest of his team that lets him down, still says the right thing. It's really, I mean, kind of attacked a lot in sports media as being overrated or whatever, etc. Comes back, they win this massive blowout last night. And it's just, you'd love to see that, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
It is contrary to a lot of what we're seeing in public life right now. Like somebody that, you know, is willing to take a hit, does not get overwhelmed with personal grievance. does not have temper tantrums, whatever, does not worry about his image in one moment, and just played the long game, got back there, failed two more times, gets the win last night.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Philly fans are obnoxious, but I was pretty happy for Jalen Hurts. So that's my earnest takeaway from last night's Super Bowl. I don't know if you had any other thoughts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
So not only am I racist, but racism is cool. He was and is a racist, I think we could say. I was and am a racist, and I think it's cool to be a racist. So he gets fired. I'm clear who he gets fired by because the president, the shadow president, and the vice president all were on the side of keeping him. So I don't know who fired him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Yeah, the Chiefs are fine. All right, I need one more clarification before I let you go. When I asked you at the beginning if you identify as white, you said you identify as peaked. And I guess I did have to follow up. Did you mean as in peak, P-I-Q-U-E, or P-E-A-K-E-D, peaked?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Okay. Neither peaks nor end peak. Just peak. Okay. I got it. Bill Kristol. He'll be back here next Monday. And everybody else, we'll see you tomorrow for another edition of the Lord Podcast.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
This is where you need our old colleague Mark Caputo to kind of wade through the morass and be like, who did the firing here? Who's in charge? They acted like it was the media that fired him. And it's like, no, you're in charge. You didn't have to fire him in the first place if you didn't want to.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
But anyway, so then they go rehire him on the backs of the president, vice president, and shadow president's advocacy that... People should not be judged for the mistakes of three weeks ago. And he should be allowed to stay. So it's most telling just in, like, that they have inserted thinking about all of this, like, into the top levels of our government and into our society, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
I mean, like, usually it was, like, people on random message boards, you know, and in basements, places that, like, we're obsessed with. cranium size and physiognomy and melanin levels. And Elon has inserted that right into the center of our politics, which seems like it'll probably have some negative downstream consequences.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Yeah. Yeah. Well, they're mad at the media, but they should probably be mad at the person that works for them that fired him in the first place. So maybe we can find that out. Maybe we can smoke that out and figure out who was the responsible person inside the White House so they can make sure to hold that person accountable for their cancel culture.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
We have some more serious matters, unfortunately, to get to with these clowns now that we've cleared this up. Didn't we actually clear it up? Do you identify as white? Only peak. I identify as peak. Just peak person. That's kind of how I identify. All right. Now that we figured that out, we have a constitutional crisis coming.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Many judges have been blocking the illegal actions of Doge and the Treasury Department and elsewhere throughout the government. and J.D. Vance is unhappy with this. He posted on X, if a judge tried to tell a general how to conduct a military operation, that would be illegal. If a judge tried to command the attorney general and how to use her discretion as a prosecutor, that's also illegal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
We need to start with the most important item of the weekend. We're going to get to Super Bowl stuff at the end. And obviously, we have the constitutional crisis to discuss and many other matters. It's tariff week again. It's going to be infrastructure week throughout the late 2010s and tariff week through the mid-2020s, I think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Judges aren't allowed to control the executive's legitimate power. Trump, a little less... clear than that about what he intends to do. But he told reporters on Sunday during a gaggle, forget if it was on the way to the Super Bowl on the way home, no judge should frankly be allowed to make that kind of decision. It's a disgrace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
So anybody who is paying attention can see where this is heading, which is that these guys at some point are going to challenge legal rulings. They've been following them to date, we should say. For example, there was the USAID freeze that was enjoined by a judge. There was a memo that went out that said that
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
people that work for USAID or whatever still have access to their email, et cetera, et cetera. Sam Stein reported that for us. So they've been following judges' orders to date, but it seems like there's a time clock on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
But the burning subject on the mind of the shadow president, Elon Musk, over the weekend was whether or not you are white. It was a very fine statement. Twitter reply guys replied to Elon saying that Bill Kristol is Jewish, not white, correcting a tweet that Elon had sent. Elon replied, this idea that Jewish people are not white is ridiculous. Someone like Kristol is peak white, if anything.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
I want to get into NIH next, but you make a good point about kind of how I do think there's this expectation that there's this big showdown coming, right, rather than the frog-boiling side of it. And maybe there will be a showdown eventually after – if they decide to not follow a Supreme Court ruling. Right. But, you know, judges are not infallible. There are going to be judges that –
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
overstep or make bad decisions or whatever, make decisions that are, you know, whatever side you are on of it are obviously going to be in conflict with what this Supreme Court would think. Right. And so they could pick those those fights in the interim. But, you know, to me, the most alarming part of all this is and I think a signal to where we're going is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
is that there doesn't seem to be any internal dispute on the J.D. point of view here, right? Like, in 17, there were institutionalists, there were constitutional lawyers that were in the White House. And you would hear this would leak out to Maggie Haberman or whatever. It'd be like, well, Don McGahn is worried about this, and so-and-so is worried about that, and they're going back and forth.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
That has been missing from the first three weeks of this administration. Like, there is no... There are leaks from within the civil service, but there are no leaks from the top level that's like, so-and-so is trying to talk Trump off the ledge and make sure that he abides by court orders.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
It seems like those people have been snuffed out, basically, of the administration and that the administration itself is pretty aligned that they're just going to go do what they need to do, law be damned. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
That dude barely has any melatonin. Quick aside, melatonin is a hormone that helps regulate your sleep-wake cycle. Heavy MDMA usage creates a depletion of melatonin in the body, so maybe that's why melatonin was on Elon's mind, but melanin, I think, is the word he was looking for. So, Bill, do you want to clear things?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
Just while we're at DOJ, really quick, one more thing, because I barely had time to get to it. But some of the executive orders and policies have been put out by Bondi since she's been named attorney general. Like pretty alarming. And we'll see how it actually all shakes out. But it has gotten, I think, overshadowed by everything that's happening with Musk.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
I mean, like they've basically said they're not going to enforce FARA, which is a foreign agents act. They've said they're not really going to look into foreign interference in elections because of, you know, Trump was mad about the Russia investigation and essentially indicated that they are going to deemphasize all white collar crime prosecutions, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
I mean, I think that the DOJ is going to completely turn towards immigration enforcement, other crimes that they should be, you know, focusing on maybe fake election fraud stuff. I don't know, but like, It was pretty noteworthy because Bondi, you know, isn't as much of a firebrand as Musk or Gates. I feel like it's been overlooked, but like some pretty stark policy changes coming out of DOJ.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
All right, guys, let's be real. Nobody's interested in stiff, uncomfortable clothes anymore. It's February. You deserve to be comfortable in whatever you're wearing, no matter what you're doing. That's where Public Rec comes in. Their pants are a game changer. They're designed to be as comfy as your favorite sweats, but way more stylish.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: The Law Be Damned
We're talking super soft fabric, no stiff seams, and enough stretch to keep up with whatever your day throws at you. You know, so this weekend I was going to my kid's basketball game. I've become the scorekeeper, honorary scorekeeper. We got a W actually in game one. Team isn't that good, but massive second half surge, 20 points in the second half.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Yeah, it's the veto part that I'm not sure about. I think it was Jake Sherman who said this. And again, we're in unprecedented times. So, you know, Jake is very good. He's over at Punchbowl of analyzing the Hill. His point was that Trump could veto it. Could you imagine getting whatever you'd need, however many Republicans you'd need to get to?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
During that financial crisis, right? I mean, the bank bailout at first, remember, was not... Like, there was not a sense that it was going to pass on the Hill. Right, they got defeated in the House the first time, yeah. Yeah, they got defeated in the House. And I remember kind of just watching that as an observer. At that point, I was... I guess I was out of politics. I was after McCain lost.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Oh, that was back in my first job for Sarah Longwell. Actually, I was working in an office right next door to Sarah Longwell back when we were in our PR days and our youth. Anyway, I remember watching that and it fails, right? And the markets just tank again. And eventually it's kind of essentially this outside pressure. that forces the issue on the Hill, that's certainly very possible here.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
And if we're at the worst three-day drop since 1987 in the S&P 500, how much lower could it go to force that? So there's already some chatter with regards to Don Bacon, who is the Republican representing the Omaha, swingy kind of Omaha district in Nebraska. He has a resolution to take this power back. If you make it a privilege, but Mike Johnson isn't going to bring it up.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
If you bring a privilege resolution, then there's a way to force the vote. So he was asked about that over the weekend and kind of basically said, well, you know, maybe there'll be a time for that. He didn't say no, didn't say yes. He was wishy-washy as usual. So maybe there is something there. But again, this stuff gets very complicated. Then you have to get it to the Senate.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
You have Thune and Johnson. There's enough Republican senators that would go along with that. But would they go along with it in a hostile environment where Mike Johnson was overruled? Then you get real chaos in the Republican order. The idea that I've put forth was... which is a Bill Kristol pleaser, which is fantasy world idea.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
But like, again, I don't understand why it should be fantasy world, is that Brian Fitzpatrick, maybe a couple of the New York Republicans, Lawler, somebody like that, who knows, somebody that's retiring, they could... Just leave the Republican Conference and work with the Democrats on a new speaker.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
And they could get a compromised speaker put forth that could then really take the power of the purse back from Trump if he's going to be so reckless that he tanks the economy. And we're obviously not there yet, but I think it's worth just putting that on the table and reminding people that that's possible.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Because that, to your point, Bill, is like a democratic job that I think could help nudge things along. If there were Democrats out there that were saying, yeah, if they want to stop these tariffs, I would work with Don Bacon on finding a compromise solution that wouldn't obviously give the Democrats everything they want, but would Get the fucking Trump sycophant out of the Speaker's office.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Anyway, we're in crazy times. It's not like realistic, but I don't think it's unimaginable that you get to a point where that happens if the Mad King won't do anything. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Yeah, shout out to the people who turned out at the hands-off protest on Saturday. But yeah, I mean, there's two ways to look at this, right? It's like, well, do you want to stop the bad stuff from happening or do you want to help your... Because I think if things don't get any better... The Democrats literally could do nothing. The James Carville thing is true.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
They could probably play dead and win the House back. And who knows, depending on how bad it gets, maybe even the Senate back in two years. But it's like, okay, well, how much damage is going to be done before then, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
And so I do think if you want to stop it and if you want to signal to people that you are fighting for something, right, and rally people to, you know, like there are opportunities, I think, to do this sort of thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
One more thing, just on the party switching, because I know people are rolling their eyes at Bill and Tim talking about this, but like, People have switched parties a decent amount in my life. I mean, to me, it's actually one of the most insane things about the Trump era that it hasn't happened. Like from Republican to Democrat. And you've seen Liz and Adam blow up their careers over it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
You hate to hand it to Elon Musk, but it's not just the AEI. It's not just us at the bulwark. It's not just the Democrats. Even the shadow president is starting to have some concerns about the policy. Are you ready to side with Elon Musk for a second here, Bill? He was subtweeting the president this morning. Some issues on the home front with the shadow president subtweeting the president.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
And Jeff Flake, I guess, quasi, you know, ends up being appointed to a Democratic administration. But like staying in Congress and switching parties. Jeff and Drew did this the other way during the Trump era, which is crazy. Trump has picked up a plus one on a person switching parties and no one has gone the other way. When I was growing up in Colorado, Ben Nighthorse Campbell switched parties.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Jim Jeffords switched parties. Vermont, Arlen Specter switched parties. And those are just off the top of my head. I wasn't planning on this rant right now, so I'm sure that there were others. I don't know. At a time of extreme emergency... which maybe we're not quite at, but we're on the cusp of, might be worth at least stirring the pot with that a little bit, raising it as a possibility.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Y'all, could there be a time with more uncertainty in the world than right now? I don't know why I sound like Chandler Bing in Friends, but that's just how it came out. There's uncertainty out there. Lots of uncertainty. And at times of uncertainty, maybe it makes sense to think about things you can control. One such thing you control is your life insurance.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
SelectQuote is one of America's leading insurance brokers with nearly 40 years of experience helping over 2 million customers find over 700 billion dollars in coverage since 1985.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Other life insurance brokers offer impersonal one-size-fits-all policies that may cost you more and cover you less, while select quotes licensed insurance agents work for you to tailor a life insurance policy for your individual needs in as little as 15 minutes.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
And if you've ever worried about getting coverage of the pre-existing health condition, select quote partners with carriers that provide policies for a variety of conditions – high blood pressure, diabetes, heart disease – Das ist SelectQuote.com slash Bulwark. One more tariff thing, because this relates to the other crisis.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
It's a major crisis if you're living in Kyiv right now and a crisis for Europe that has now been subordinated to our more acute crises here in America, which is what's happening in Ukraine. Kevin Hassett, your buddy.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
longtime Republican economist in good standing, was on, asked to defend these tariffs that obviously he was against his entire career until two minutes ago when he decided he's a big tariff fan. And he's in the administration, chairman of the National Economic Council. And he was asked why Russia was not put on the tariff list by George Stephanopoulos.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
And I thought his response was pretty interesting. I want to play it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
He just posted the video of this classic free market fundamentalist text, The Pencil. I want to get your former Republican muscles pumping this morning, so I want to play a little bit from the pencil.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Are they not part of the negotiations? I really don't think so. It's just another accidental reveal here that they don't want to make Putin mad. They're scared of Putin. They're either scared of him slash they kind of are sympathetic with him in the negotiations. And whereas Ukraine, we can just bully around and whatever. And so Ukraine gets a 10% tariff. Russia zero. Great job, Kevin Hassett.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Ja, das war auf den Netzwerken. Also CBS, ABC, NBC. Ich weiß nicht, was sie davon bekommen haben. Ich glaube, Trump sieht sie sich ermutigen, sich in seinen guten Gräsen zu halten. Ich glaube, J.D. Vance, ist er normalerweise ehrgeizig, an diesen Sonntagsschauen zu kommen?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Ein paar Leute haben das bemerkt. Unser Post-Vice-Präsident, der fast so viel wie ich und Bill tweetet, Not a ton of posting here, some retweets, couple retweets, you know, he's retweeting Walter Kern for some reason, but last actual tweet from him, April 2 it looks like. Also, es scheint, als gäbe es ein bisschen Tension auf der anderen Seite. Ich meine, das Elon Musk-Ding ist nichts.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Er subtweetet mit dem Milton Friedman-Video. Und dann geht er auch mit Navarro dazu. Und er tweetet darüber, wie Navarro denkt, er ist klug, weil er nach Harvard gegangen ist oder so etwas. Er hat sich von ihm gefreut, als ob er ein Harvard-beruflicher Ökonomist ist. Er ist eigentlich ein Negativ, nicht ein Positiv. Also...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
I don't exactly know what to make of all of that, but there was a moment where I think some in the media were trying to manufacture this dissent between Musk. And there really was a Musk-Bannon feud, but Bannon's not in the White House. This is the first time where it really feels like inside things are dicey.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
I want to go to 60 Minutes. Another thing, I did a full video on last night because I was just so mad and sad about the whole thing. I just kind of wanted to get off my feelings immediately.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
The 60 Minutes segment doesn't really tell us anything that we don't know, but it just provided a lot of additional details to the stuff that we did already know about the horrible treatment of the Venezuelans. Just a couple of quick things. They looked at all the names of the people who Die, die auf der Liste waren, denken wir, dass das eine veröffentlichte Liste ist.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Wir sind nicht 100% sicher, weil die Administration die Staatsgeheimnisse erklärt hat. Sie haben es als Geheimnis gehalten, dass sie zu diesem Konzentrationscamp verschwunden sind. Und basierend auf dieser Liste, haben sie gesagt, dass 75% der Menschen keinen kriminellen Rekord hatten. Ich denke, 22% der Leute hatten ein Kriminalrechord, aber ein Teil davon war Shoplifting oder so etwas.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Es gab auch ein Teil davon, wo es ernsthafte Verbrechen gab. Und dann 3%, die die Namen nicht verurteilen konnten. Also, der Zahl der Leute, die völlig falsch sendet werden können, basierend auf ihren Tattoos, könnte sogar größer sein, als wir dachten. Wir wissen es nicht. They went deeper in the story of André, which we've talked about a lot on this podcast. He's a gay stylist, makeup artist.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
They found additional pictures of him from that Time Magazine photographer, who happened to be in El Salvador, taking photos when the guys came off the plane. They showed these horrible new pictures of him being stripped naked and treated rough. There's more... Details was provided by his lawyer at Immigrant Defenders. If you want to support that group, they're doing great work.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
You know, just about his background. 60 Minutes looked back, you know, Tricia McLaughlin, the spokesperson for DHS, had said that it wasn't just the tattoos in this case. She had posted a tweet saying that his social media post indicated sympathy to Trend Aragua. 60 Minutes looked at 10 years of his social media accounts and didn't find anything.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
They found mostly pictures of him doing makeup and looking very gay. And it's not as if there was a situation where he could have deleted old stuff because it was a surprise. He wasn't expected to be disappeared to El Salvador that day. They told two other stories of other people that I haven't talked about on this podcast. Their situation seemed very similar, frankly. So the whole thing is just...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
unvergesslich, wie schlecht es ist. Es ist enttäuschend. Wir kommen zu den Demokraten in einem Sekunden. Außer den Tarifen. Die Republikaner sind einfach okay mit dem. In der Administration gibt es nichts. Sie sind unvergesslich da draußen, nur diese Leute zu schmieren. Sie haben diese Leute enttäuscht und sie in eine Tötungsdungeon gesendet. Sie zeigen auch viele Videos von diesem Gefängnis.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Es ist einfach furchtbar. Und es gibt nichts. Es gibt nichts. Es gibt keinen Rückzug.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Well, just to your point on this, on the judges real quick, that today, the deadline is tonight. The judge has issued an order for not Andre, this is the Maryland dad. And this is the case where the DOJ admitted false, that they wrongly sent him there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Hallo und willkommen zu The Bulwark Podcast. Ich bin euer Host Tim Miller. Trouble inside the Trump Administration. Big trouble in the markets, trouble in the world. It's a bloodbath, in particular in the S&P, which is now at its worst three-day performance since 1987, as Trump refuses to back off his moronic tariff regime.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
For a military parade, it would stretch almost four miles from Pentagon and Arlington to the White House, according to the stores. Hmm. Ich meine, das ist umsonst, glaube ich.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Iglesias made this point, too, about how, like, actually, it's weird, it's flipped, that the populists are pro-tariffs now on both sides. It's like, back then, it was like, tariffs raised prices on working people, and so a lot of them, a lot of the... Intellektuals in that era were against it, as you said.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Maybe not, though. Maybe that won't be the culmination of the hubris. Maybe things will get darker than that, and that's where I want to end. JBL wrote about the end of the American age last week. That really kind of settled into my gut, because it's kind of in where my mind is going. On this podcast, a month or two ago, Anne Applebaum mentioned the book The Captive Mind. It's a Polish poet.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
I'm not going to try to pronounce his first name. His last name is Miloš. I don't know if it was a poet or once it won some literary award in the mid-20th century. And it just kind of talks about, you know, how the authoritarian mindset took over.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
And this combination of that kind of history I've been mulling over and just kind of watching what is happening in Europe and Canada and Australia as people already start to adjust themselves around us. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
And I think that there's a decent chance that like we're in the middle of something that people haven't really wrapped their heads around yet, that many people haven't, which is that like We're not going to be able to put Humpty Dumpty back together again here. There is something that has fundamentally changed about our role in the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
It's kind of a heavy topic for the very end of the podcast, but you, I'm sure, read JBL's newsletter and wanted to get your two cents on it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Ja, sie durfte nicht lange bleiben, solange sie uns nicht hatte.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
That's where I'm at, too. Just like your intersocial Democrats have been popping out. Like mine are like the parliamentary system. Man, I'm ready to junk our constitution. My little pocket constitution I put into one of those little library boxes in the neighborhood. Talk to me about the constitution we gave the Germans.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Do your job, sir. I agree with that, Bill. Thank you so much. It's just a really uplifting Monday podcast as usual. Sorry. More good stuff to come. That's why I tried to get Dave Chappelle in there. I'm trying to give you guys some gifts. Just little presents from me. I don't play Trump's voice almost ever. I'm playing some comedy. We gotta cope as best we can.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
So thanks to Bill Kristol, everybody else. We'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. We'll see y'all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
You kept dancing around it, moron, stupidity. They said we can say the R-Word again, Bill. They said we can say it again, and this is... I don't even know if it would be the R-Word. S, I think. This is the subtarded economic policy that has put this collapse in place. It has no rationale at all across any level. The funny thing is, Besant was on... All these things are darkly funny.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
When I say funny, it's not really funny to see what's happening to our 401ks. But Besant was on NBC this weekend and he's like, you know, this is these finance guys underestimating Trump again. Und ich sage, nein, Scott, das ist das Gegenteil. Das ist eine Reflexion auf den Fakt, dass sie überestimiert haben, dass sie nicht erkannt haben, wie furchtbar und dumm ihr seid. Sie haben nicht gehört.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Sie haben gehört zu mir und Bill. Sie hätten das Ganze zwischen November und jetzt verkaufen lassen, weil wir den Leuten gesagt haben, dass es kommen wird. Aber es ist dieser große Schock und Schreck, weil Investoren nicht glauben, dass sie so dumm sein könnten.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Here to discuss that and much more, it's Monday, so it's Bulwark Editor-at-Large Bill Kristol. Hey Bill, what's up? Hanging in there, Tim. How are you? I was just talking to your pal Stan Voyger. He's an economist over at AEI, who's been one of the ones who's been stalwart in opposition to Trump's excesses, particularly on the economic side of things and his stupid trade wars.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Yeah. That person might not have looked that closely at Scott Besson's returns, because one of our super listeners was texting me a chart of how much money Scott Besson had in his hedge fund over the years. The chart kind of looks similar to the S&P 500 right now, actually.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
I wanted to just zero in on the Commerce Secretary, Howard Nutlick, for a second, because he was not exactly knocking it out of the park over the weekend as well. I want to play a clip for you of Possibly one of the worst talking points I've ever heard on a Sunday show.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Es ist auch einfach so, dass Ackman Trump unterstützt. Die Leute wissen nicht, dass dieser Typ ein Clown ist, ein reiches Clown, der den Markt während Covid-19 verringert hat, also er weiß ein bisschen über das. Und er muss mit dieser konvoluten Theorie kommen, warum diese Leute, die er in die White House gelegt hat, alles zerstören. Ich möchte nur sagen, Bill,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Bill, you supported the stupidest person in America who bankrupted everything he ever did before he created a TV show that made him seem like a good businessman. Like, that's what happened here. There's no 40 chests. They're not trying to lower interest rates for a long, you know, Mar-a-Lago Accord. And Lutnik isn't secretly helping his bonds. Like, he's just a suck-up.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
He's just a clown who wants attention sucking up to the idiots that we made president. So, hopefully that clears things up for... für Ackman. I want to play for you. My father sent me a little comedy bit. I think dark comedy. He's trying to process how things with the mutual funds are going as much as me.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
People can check out over on YouTube on the Bulwark Takes feed about his paper about how stupid these tariffs are. They didn't even do their own math right. And we were joking at the end that... You know, the schadenfreude of watching all the terrible people be wrong and lose money is nice. It's not exactly going to pay for kids' college fund or the retirement home.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
I think that Dave Chappelle went pretty anti-woke and was celebrated on the right for his kind of anti-trans comedy. Seems like he's also had a turn already in the first Whatever it's been, 10, 11 weeks of this administration. And I think his little comedy routine from last week does a nice job of rebutting Howard Letnick's screws theory. So let's listen to Chappelle.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
I don't know, my life is so crazy right now. I was out somewhere and I can't remember where it was and a nice woman came up to me and she was like, I just want to hear the latest with the cat. Just want to hear the latest with the neighborhood cat. So I'm glad people are out there following the saga. It was nice to share.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
The neighborhood cat, Aretha, a boy named Aretha, was actually in the house this morning. He's now our cat. Took to the vet, did all the things y'all told me to do. I still like to spend a lot of time outside, but was inside today because we had a very minor cold front in New Orleans. It got down to 55, brr. And the kitty doesn't like that. He's inside snuggling up.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
And over the weekend, my daughter was trying to make a little maze for the cat and was using the bag of small snacks to lure him out. Into the play area. So how about that? This podcast is sponsored by Smalls. If you're a listener of the show, you know that Aretha cannot live without Smalls.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
To get 35% off plus an additional 50% off your first order, head to Smalls.com and use our promo code THEBULLWORK for a limited time only. Smalls Cat Food is protein-packed recipes made with preservative-free ingredients you find in your fridge and is delivered right to your door. That's why Cats.com names Smalls their best overall cat food.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Smalls also has a bunch of amazing treats and snacks you can add to your order. That's what Aretha really likes. So I would make sure to look into the options for snacks. And if you have a particularly picky cat, Bis zum nächsten Mal. That's an additional 50% off when you head to Smalls.com and use promo code THEBULLWORK.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Again, that's promo code THEBULLWORK for an additional 50% off the first order plus free shipping at Smalls.com. Two and a half months in. It's pretty noteworthy that we have Joe Rogan and Dave Chappelle already, you know. Es war nur ein Monat her.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
that everybody was like, there's been a real vibe shift, you know, people are coming around to Trump, you know, that's changing the way, it's changing people's behavior, who knows, you know, what positive results could come if you're a conservative, right? And I do wonder if there's some like ripple effects on stiffening the spines of people in big law.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Lauren Egan has a great newsletter this weekend for the Bulwark on how Democrats are pissed at that in den Demokraten, die Exekutiven dieser Rechtsfirmen sind, in der Corporate-Amerika, werden diese Leute anfangen zu denken, okay, warte einen Moment, dieser kleine Moment hier, wo wir alle sagten, oh, wir müssen Trump aufhören, und dann wird alles okay sein.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
You know, so it's mixed feelings.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1015: Bill Kristol: The High Cost of Stupidity
Maybe we might be sensing that that dark period in our history has already passed. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
The fallout from this, the minerals deal is not signed. What happens is after the temper tantrum that is thrown by the president and vice president, they retreat to their separate quarters. Trump and his team stays in the Oval Office. Zelensky and his goes to, I forget what other room they went to hold in. And then rather than go talk to Zelensky himself, Trump sends Walsh and Rubio in,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
We saw the continued shrinkening of little Marco Rubio, who had to go and tell Zelensky to leave. Later that day, high-level administration sources said that military aid is now in question, and the quotas are fortunate it is not off already. So that's kind of where things stand on the deal. And then yesterday, on Sunday, European leaders met without us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
It was in London, it was France, Germany, Canada, UK. They met. They're saying that they're doubling down on supporting Ukraine and maybe boosting military aid. But obviously, there's a lot of frustration and hard feelings at the White House. So what say you about the current state of play?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Yeah, I mean, Don Bacon was on 60 Minutes, I guess. But I mean, the next time that he does something actually substantive rather than just with his words will be the first time. So we'll believe it when I see it. I mean, just kind of gaming this out as you sort of talked about the potential ways that it could develop as far as Europe is concerned. Just think about the position Trump is in now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Like, the sticking point... That really undergirded this disagreement beyond J.D. Vance just wanting to be a condescending douche. The actual substantive sticking point was that Zelensky is trying to say, I need security guarantees. That we can't trust Putin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
If you make a deal, right, like we might make a deal and then, you know, who knows, a few months later, he props up another reason to make an incursion somewhere or whatever, test the test to deal. I need security guarantees. And Trump didn't want to do that, didn't want to give those. And.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
From our position now, it's like even if Zelensky comes back, tail between his legs, Mark Thiessen is writing in the Washington Post opinion page today, it's unclear today whether sucking up to Trump fits under free markets or personal liberties in the new rubric on the Washington Post opinion page.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
But he wrote that Zelensky must suck up to Trump for the good of his country and must come back and must get on Trump's good side and blah, blah, blah. Even if that happened... there's not really a situation where you could trust either side of a security guarantee if you're Zelensky, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Like maybe you have to do such a deal anyway, and it's just pragmatic, hope for the best, you know, cross the next bridge when you get there type situation. But like, you know, it's hard to really conceive that Donald Trump is going to offer any real security, even if we have some skin in the game with rare earth minerals or whatever. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
We talked about this with Susan Glasser on the show a couple of episodes ago. She makes the same point about Estonia. It's impossible to fathom at this point that Trump would come to the defense of one of these other NATO countries. Maybe. Who the hell knows? The last person in his ear at the right moment ends up being somebody that...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
flatter some in the right kind of way, but there's certainly no reason to have any belief that we would. And that does call into question the whole NATO agreement at this point. Meanwhile, it is worth mentioning that The war is ongoing. Russia launched an attack on Kharkiv yesterday that injured eight, including a seven-year-old child.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
And I just, I think that that is important to like point out because the Trump and Vance side of this argument is kind of, it's premised on this notion that like, Russia is behaving like we're not even asking anything from Russia. Russia is not the problem child here. Right. Like it's it's Ukraine. That's the problem. And if we just decide to come to the table, then it'll all be good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Putin will do will do what we ask. And that is like in total conflict with what is actually actually happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
What it said was that Hegseth ordered the U.S. Cyber Command to stand down all planning against Russia, including offensive digital actions. according to three people familiar with the matter. So we'll see. But I think your point is well taken that if you just accept the Trump framework presented at the press conference and since, and frankly at the speech J.D.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Vance gave in Europe, et cetera, if you accept their framework, there is no rationale for sanctions on Russia, right? Like the sanctions on Russia are there because of their invasion into Ukraine and because of their actions, you know, targeting our elections, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Like Trump thinks that those were a hoax and that Ukraine was asking for it because, you know, they were wearing their skirt too short. So like, they've put themselves in a box.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Maybe they want to be in this box, but they've put themselves in a position where it makes it very challenging for them to even like make the case in a way that is coherent for changing course beyond the course, the very Russia favorable course that they're on. So yeah, We have tariffs also happening tonight. Maybe we'll see.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Trump insisted that the tariffs on goods imported from Canada and Mexico will go into effect Tuesday because of fentanyl, I guess. And he also doubled the tariffs on China to 20%. The question is whether he will once again do the same. I'm giving you a reprieve because you're sending Mounties to the border thing with Canada or Mexico.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Howard Lutnick floated yesterday on Fox, the Commerce Secretary, that Trump is considering reducing the tariffs down from 25%. TBD, I guess you don't want to keep going around and around here with their little kabuki theater act. But I do think that they're in a tenuous spot economically. I think that's actually really the more relevant point here. The market has not been doing well.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
The market's been coming back down. A lot of concerns. The Atlanta Fed projections for GDP growth. last week, way down from where they were after Trump was elected. And, you know, so this kind of stuff is going to have real impact. And eventually, again, it's similar to this box I'm talking about with Russia.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
He's like rhetorically put himself in a box where he's going to have to do these things at some point, you would think, or else he would feel weak and humiliated. But I don't know. We'll see. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
That's a great question, and one that I've been thinking about. My gut says that... it would lead to panic, right? And lashing out and moving more towards the authoritarian direction. I don't know. I mean, I guess it kind of depends on how bad it is, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
But if it's just kind of somewhat bad and things are, you know, muddling along and things are not great on the margins and, you know, he's got rich guys in his ear saying, okay, this is hurting us too much. You got to back off it. We got to get the tax cut through, right? I could see that as a possible outcome here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
But if things get really hairy, you can get to a point of hairiness where getting rid of the tariffs and passing a tax cut or whatever doesn't really remediate the problem. And so I think that... The worse things get, the more unhinged he would get, and the more he would move towards even further down the authoritarian path, I guess is my instinct. But I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
And this is the thing about the first Trump term is pre-COVID. he like got pretty lucky, right? Like there weren't a lot of forces outside of his control that created crises, really. In COVID, like we saw just a massive panic and foul up. And so I kind of think that COVID, what we saw during COVID is kind of what we would see here. But I don't know, who knows? What do you make of that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Yeah, I mean, he doesn't like bad news. The thing that has always protected us the most from disaster with Trump is he does have a hole in his heart where he wants to be loved. He plays the role of tough guy who doesn't care, but he really does. And so there have been several occasions where he got bad news and then you kind of back off, do some face-saving things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
I'm not saying that he wouldn't do that, but I guess my point is sometimes problems... get out of your control, right? It doesn't matter whether he backs off at that point. Right, exactly. One more thing on the Doge. Sam Stein is reporting this in the Morning Shots newsletter this morning. People should sign up for it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Nick Enrich, who is the Acting Assistant Administrator for Global Health at USAID, he was placed on administrative leave for disseminating memos outlining the failure of the Trump administration to follow through on its pledge to allow waivers for certain types of life-saving foreign aid. He sent another memo that the bulwark received.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
And I mean, it's pretty alarming just talking about like the degree to which these cuts are going to have massive ramifications for children, malnourished children, pregnant women, obviously people with HIV and AIDS in Africa. And, you know, again, this is a situation where Trump allowed Musk to go do the cuts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
All right. We're going to get to then President Trump intervening there. But I want to start with J.D. since he kicked off the kerfuffle. Kind of a mixed message there. He begins by condescendingly lecturing Zelensky about diplomacy and how we need diplomacy now. And then he proceeds to berate and chastise Zelensky, which isn't maybe the best form of diplomacy I've ever seen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Rubio had said that he wanted to reinstate certain types of aid, and it's not happening. It's not getting reinstated. The damage is happening. And, you know, the guy that's blowing the whistle on it, instead of them backing off more and trying to put in place the waivers that Rubio wanted, the guy's getting put on administrative leave.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
I mean, I think that's a pretty alarming example of what we'd expect to see.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
I mean, you know, enjoyment of other people's suffering, I guess I, right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
I mean, for, you know, to, to be able to say that they are going after these shadowy elites that people hate, I guess as part of their like imaginary internet war, like really, I think is the answer like that, uh, that they are on the other side of this kind of like imaginary culture battle that they think that they're fighting through tweets. And I, I don't know. I don't know because it's not, uh,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
About balancing the budget. We know that based on the budget.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
But I'm curious what you thought about that, Bill.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
In addition to recklessness, the one also hallmark of Trumpism is the corruption. So we should close by talking about the crypto scam, which I think might end up being the biggest scam in the history of American politics. To show you my sense for things this morning, like where I was at, I was going back to the Teapot Dome scandal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
And I was like, how much money was involved in the Teapot Dome scandal? It turns out it was $400,000 at the time was the bribe, which is about $6 million in current dollars. So not nothing. I mean, that is a big scandal that was certainly something worth creating controversy and firings over and ignominy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
But what is happening in crypto is going to be unbelievable compared to that, like 10, 20, 100x. Here is the announcement Trump put up. A U.S. crypto reserve will elevate this critical industry after years of corrupt attacks by the Biden administration. Every accusation is a confession.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Which is why my executive order on digital assets directed the presidential working group to move forward on a crypto strategic reserve that includes these three particular currencies. Then he...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
adds to the thread later because i guess probably somebody who had money in uh bitcoin or ethereum was mad that they were not specifically singled out maybe his son eric so he adds and obviously bitcoin and ethereum as other valuable cryptocurrencies will be the heart of the reserve i also love bitcoin and ethereum exclamation point how is this the fucking president of the united states the descending this like this is like a late night television scam level rhetoric here about his support for bitcoin and ethereum
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Eric Trump had tweeted last week about crypto by the dip exclamation point, which seems a little bit like some insider trading knowledge to me. I don't know. I guess we would leave that up to the totally toothless SEC to look into. But just to like sum this up in the way that is the most simple, the theory of the case here is that cryptocurrencies are so valuable.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
This digital gold, so to speak, is going to be so valuable in the future that that the United States government needs to purchase and hold massive quantities of several different types of Bitcoin to hold in some kind of digital Fort Knox that we need to have for who knows, God knows what in the future to ensure that the United States has enough of these supposed currencies in order to
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
I don't know, deal with some future crypto related crisis. It is an absurd proposition. Bitcoin and Ethereum have like some value. Some of these other ones have no value.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
It is literally like buying the U S government, like buying pet rocks or beanie babies or something and being like, we're going to hold these in a strategic reserve somewhere to make sure that in the future we have enough babies for the beanie market. And it is a preposterous scheme. It is going to enrich the,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Trump family, the Secretary of Commerce, Howard Lutnick and his family are very deeply invested in this. David Sachs, who is the crypto czar, says that he divested from crypto, but it's unclear exactly what all that leads to. I mean, there's like no words for the preposterousness of this proposed plan. So I don't know. Do you have any words for me?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Yeah, the Trump coin you're stealing from the Marx, which is bad enough in itself, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
The fact that our president is running a massive pump and dump operation to steal money from regular people in order to enrich himself and also to create a fund where other people can bribe him, including possibly Chinese nationals like Justin Sun, who put in tens of millions of dollars into Trump's various... digital grifts. And now the sec has, is no longer prosecuting him. Convenient.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
I had this guy, Jason Calacanis on the podcast a while back. And some of the listeners, you know, maybe might not have been their favorite episode for some of them. Cause Jason was Trump curious, I guess I would call him. I'm not really, not really pro Trump, uh, but certainly not anti-Trump to the degree that we are. He's a tech guy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
He has a podcast, including he's on a podcast with the Trump crypto czar, David Sachs. So I think this is interesting because him and David have a relationship. And like he wrote this, it's a terrible idea to spend taxpayer money buying the crypto bags of the people who donated many millions to him. It's an even worse idea to pick...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
winners like pick random cryptocurrencies to invest in he puts it like this why not a u.s strategic tech reserve where we buy apple google and microsoft shares why not a real estate strategic reserve where we buy real estate assets from huge companies when you put it in these kind of contexts like you just see how ridiculous this is and the people that are going to benefit from this are the people that have invested their money in these currencies made big these big
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
They're not currencies, but made big bets into these crypto assets. And now, thanks to the taxpayers, they're going to see a huge return. We've already seen it this morning. All these currencies that Trump named are up 10%. So if you listened to Eric Trump last week when he said, buy the dip, you've made now 10% just on the speculation side of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Imagine the amount of money these guys would make if we really put U.S. taxpayer dollars into their worthless... cryptocurrencies it's like truly i mean at least in teapot dome they were selling land that existed to drill oil in for cash i mean it was a it was just a good old-fashioned corruption you I'm going to give you something in exchange for cash.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
In this case, we're just giving people's taxpayer dollars away in exchange for essentially nothing so that a bunch of people can make a lot of money. It's truly astonishing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
this trump second trump administration it was always there obviously the first one but so much more visible and shameless and massive just think about his whole career i to me they could pay some political price for that or what do you think yeah i think potentially no of course i think they could pay a political price for this i mean some crypto people are gonna like it so we'll get some political benefit from among some some corners but like of course i think that they could end up playing political price a lot of people didn't sign up for this and again trump
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Somehow was able to maintain the reputation of being the apprentice business guy, Trump, rather than being the guy that went bankrupt and casinos and had a fake university and had all these other pyramid schemes and other, other things that he was involved in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
So I do think that the second Trump term could end up looking, you know, being the Trump university of terms where all of his scams crumble around us. Unfortunately, you know, He would suffer a political price for that, but a lot of us are going to suffer too. So there you go. Bill, any other final thoughts? No, that was well said. All right. Everybody else, it's Mardi Gras tomorrow.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Are you ready to celebrate? Are you ready to celebrate? From your beads, I'm going to... Am I going to do an uplifting episode tomorrow? I don't know. Probably not. But we'll have some fun Mardi Gras music to go with the episode. We'll see you all back here then. Have a good one. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
And so I got Bill Kristol back here and it's Monday. How you doing, Bill? I'm doing fine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
And I guess it was definitely set up, but this all happens like 38 minutes in about to the press conference. And you're into the Q&A. And at some level, Trump, I think, wants the show. Kind of like, oh, I'm going to make him come here and we're going to sign his way as minerals to us and say we got a great deal. And so like... Do you think Trump and J.D.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
thought that there was potentially a clean version of this or that it was a certain that J.D. was going to go at him? Because I'm not sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
All right. So after J.D. intervenes, why aren't you thanking us?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Yeah. Here's then Trump kind of changing his tune.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
The Trump thing kind of reminds me of a couple that is fighting when they have had a couple too many to drink. Trump's just like, don't tell me how to feel. The fight isn't about anything. Trump just lashes out at him and, again, starts berating him. then gets into this metaphor about the cards. And like, I don't think he even understands what Zelensky's trying to say.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
That is great to know. No, I was nursing a hangover yesterday, so I did not tune in for you and Sam, but people can get our little Sunday bonus conversations on Substack. So, you know, go to the Bulwark, sign up for Bulwark Plus. You don't have to wait for me until Monday afternoon that way. All right. Where should we start? I think we got to start with the sneer heard around the world from J.D.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Zelensky's point is that like, I didn't have the cards for day one. Everybody thought we were going to lose this war in three days. And like, we fought and we fought. And I guess Trump just doesn't think about it from anybody's perspective, besides his own feelings, I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
All right, guys, we are coming to the end of hoodie season here in New Orleans. But the rest of you suckers, you got a few months ahead of you. And it's important to find a good hoodie. Really, it's essential to be comfy and cozy when you're sitting around on a chilly day or got to run to the store. And so I'm happy to recommend what Slate Magazine called the greatest hoodie ever made.
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Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
It's from American Giant. My husband had an American Giant hoodie that he just always bummed around in. It was his favorite. Classic was one of the more heavyweight ones that they make. And, you know, he's always talked about how much he liked it, but I never got to give it a try for myself. Even though one nice thing about a gay marriage is you do get to share clothes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
So oftentimes I am stealing clothes from him. But when I got the American Giant hoodie of my own, I understood what it was that he'd been bragging about. The classic classic. Full Zip Hoodie is the jacket that started it all for American Giant. It's a heavyweight fleece, has side panels for mobility made to make it the best hoodie ever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
It also has a body skimming fit with a double-lined hood and reinforced elbow patches, meaning that this is a hoodie that will last. This season, snag the hoodie that will bring comfort to your life, the American Giant Classic Full Zip, and save 20% off your first order at American-Giant.com when you use code BULWORK at checkout. That's 20% off your first order at American-Giant.com. Code BULLERK.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
So a couple more clips, and then I want to get into what the ramifications are now. But here is the next little bit where J.D. gets back in and things really, really derail.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
For just the audio listeners, for people who have not suffered through watching the videotape of this, when Trump is doing the, he like does a Zelensky imitation there where he's going, I don't want to cease fire. I don't want to cease fire. And he's like, he's making a moron face. And it is about the most childish scene that you could possibly imagine inside the Oval Office in that little bit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Vance. I'm going to play a series of clips from the White House summit, so to speak, between Vladimir Zelensky, Putin. That was unintentional. Between Vladimir Zelensky, Trump, and Vance. Things were going okay. I mean, you know, okay for Trump on the Trump scale until J.D., decided to interject into a question from the press about whether Trump had been too nice to Putin. Let's listen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Horrible. Yeah. Okay, I got one more, Bill. I'm sorry. Yeah, you're really making me suffer here. I am making you suffer. I'm making the listeners. It must be listened to. It is outrageous. I rewatched the whole 48 minutes this morning because in the clips, it is appalling and shocking. But just watching the contour of the conversation just completely derail. And let's be honest, it's just J.D.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
and Trump losing their cool. This is why I guess I object a little bit to the fact that it was a setup. Because I think that clearly they had prepared well. how JD was going to go at him. But the degree to which these two just lost their cool and start shouting about their feelings and about needing to be thanked. And then it closes here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
with like something that it that could have been and it would almost be too rude to newsmax to explain what is next here as being a segment on newsmax and it is on the it is a rant from the furthest most idiotic realms of the fever swamps and it's the president of the united states let's let's listen to the last bit
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
What is he even talking about? Like what came out of Hunter Biden's bedroom?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Congrats to Anora. A great film on a win last night. Lots of wins at the Oscars and happy Lundy-Graw. Much has happened since we last taped. Had it not been my husband's 40th birthday and Mardi Gras weekend, I might have come back on to do an emergency pod. But, you know, sometimes you guys just got to wait for the good stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Yes, that is the correct insight. It is a tantrum by somebody that feels emotionally connected at some level to Putin. I I guess maybe in his imagination, right? Like this notion that Putin somehow went through the Russia hoax. Putin was laughing through the whole thing. Putin's gotten everything that he wanted the whole time. He got a kick out of the Russia hoax. It achieved its ends.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
I'm saying Russia hoax and scare quotes here, but like the, the, his interference in the election, it achieved his ends of dividing the country. It created a quasi legitimacy in Trump or the challenging of his legitimacy. He got the person in there that he preferred who, you know, allowed, uh, him free reign to, you know, continue to expand his power.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
Like Putin has got everything that he wanted out of all of this up to and until when Ukraine started fighting back after he invaded Kiev. Like Trump has like constructed this imaginary other world where Putin was like him besieged by shifty Adam Schiff and the media and a shadowy cabal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
It also just kind of ties into the whole manliness, masculinity conversation that they're all having, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
That it's like, there is some notion that that kind of performative temper tantrum, the bullying, the talking down, the condescending to Zelensky is going to reveal themselves to be the tough ones rather than the ones like beset by their emotional distress and, you know, trying to intimidate somebody who's actually shown real courage. It is fascinating.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Kleptocrats and Plutocrats
But I guess it seems to be like landing with at least their own voters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Another news item I really want to spend some time on is a gentleman by the name of Darren Beatty. I don't know which one it is. It doesn't really matter. He's the new acting Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy. I want to go through the hit list here on Beatty, and then we'll kind of tie it back to the point you're making. Beatty loves to tell people to take a knee.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I want to see if you can notice any trend here. Well... Here's our new acting Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy. Tim Scott needs to learn his place and take a knee to MAGA. Black Lives Matter must take a knee to MAGA. Ibram Kendi must take a knee to MAGA. Kay Coles-James of Heritage Foundation needs to learn her natural place and take a knee to MAGA.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I know, I'm not about healing through pain. No, thank you for saying that. Yeah, it's partially schadenfreude. It's partially just kind of like the, you know, solace and knowing that you are correct. The solace and knowing that... We weren't leading people astray. There's something to that. There's a little bit of joy in seeing other people's pain.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Any guess on the race of Kay Coles-James, Will? Uh, let me guess. Uh, it has to do with Ebony. Yeah. Yes. There you go. Black. Yeah. Uh, Tim Scott, Katie Coles, James conservatives. They need to take a knee. They need to learn their place, natural place and take a knee to MAGA. So this guy is really, uh, he was fired from the first Trump administration for his associations with white nationalists.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He was one of the only people too racist to be fired from the first Trump administration. He's been brought back, uh, He's also pro-Uyghur genocide, essentially, or at least a big excuser of the Uyghur genocide. And talking about how he said that we treat American rural whites worse than China treats the Uyghur minority. And then this takes us to South Africa.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
There's an interesting statement from Trump this morning, from Trump yesterday morning, rather. South Africa is confiscating land and treating certain classes of people very badly. It is a bad situation that the radical left media doesn't want to so much as mention. The United States won't stand for it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I will be cutting off all future funding to South Africa until a full investigation of this situation has been completed. Beatty had said this in the past, the whole concept of modern South Africa is absurd, doomed to fail from the beginning. South Africa was the first modern nation to be refounded on the anti-white principles of critical race theory.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Musk is also from South Africa, you might remember, and his attack on USAID may also have something to do with his feelings about the South African leadership. USAID had spent a lot of money helping black folks suffering from apartheid in South Africa. So, I mean, it's not exactly subtle, Will. No, it's not.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, I don't know. The Marco Rubio side of it is pretty interesting to me, too. See, he had to hire Beatty, right? And Marco Rubio ran in 2016, as I recall, on kind of a compassionate conservatism updated platform. And Marco Rubio has hired the guy who said that Kay Cole's James of the Heritage Foundation needs to learn her natural place and take a knee to MAGA.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But the bad people, the MAGA people, there will be some collateral damage, unfortunately. That's not what I'm happy about. But just their failures is kind of giving me a little joy. No, is that wrong?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And this is the type of person that Marco wants as his undersecretary, somebody who is posting just the most overt, obvious, racist, vile things. over and over again about conservative black leaders. I, you know, not that it's okay to do racist stuff about Ibram Kendi, but like this guy is so through the looking glass that he's posting racist shit about Tim Scott and Kate Cole's James.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And Marco is like, I want this man to be my undersecretary. I just think that the degree of the corruption, the corruption of the soul of these people is, is pretty remarkable. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I mean, it's his undersecretary.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I guess. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's their version of DEI. Remind me, what's the job that Beatty's getting here? Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
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The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I was looking for that chilling on the beach vibe on Saturday night because I was over at my buddy's house. I had a big day ahead of me Sunday. Lots happening out there in the news. You know, didn't want to deal with the hangover. We had the kids running around. You know what a nice thing to do is when you have seven-year-old girls running around screaming, pretending like they're cats?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
A gummy that gives you that chilling on the beach vibe. Now, I'm not a quad man, so be careful out there, everybody. You know, for me... maybe just a five milligram. That'll do the trick. Come home, watch some severance, watch a little bit of nuggets on DVR, big win over the Hornets made for a nice little evening, pleasant evening, a little break from everything that was happening on the news.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
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The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
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The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
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The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
That's 30% off your order using code THEBULLWORK. One last time, GetSold.com and code THEBULLWORK for 30% off. I want to go back to Elon. We mentioned this, but the Treasury story? It's really something. I mean, Doge, I guess, and Elon now with the approval of incoming Treasury Secretary Scott Besant, who everybody told me was the normie. This is the guy we don't have to worry about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I don't know. Personal validation. Yeah. All that matters is solipsism. All that matters is having my own brain. Okay, I knew that you'd be on the other side of that, but I figured some of the listeners would be on my side. I'm enjoying it. There's another thing. It was related. I don't know. Ezra Klein, you might have heard of him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I guess he's given Elon carte blanche to... interfere in the payment system. Among the things that he said that he wants to put a stop payment on is payment to Lutheran religious services because the Lutheran services, they're providing services for immigrants. Obviously, we wouldn't want to do that. So, you know, the
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
The Christian, the presidency, the presidency brought in by Christians who, you know, great evangelical Christians like Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell Jr. They're shutting down all payments to the Lutheran religious services. Anyway, JVL has kind of an even darker take on what's happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He writes this, Elon Musk allegedly has control of the system the US government uses to disperse congressionally mandated payments. Musk claims that he's personally putting a stop to payments he does not like. First, this obviously could not happen unless the FBI had been neutered because these actions are badly illegal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Of course, if the DOJ and FBI refuse to investigate the crimes, are they really crimes at all? But then he goes on to talk about how, you know, Musk wants X to be a payment system. And his dark vision of what's possibly coming is that Elon wants to get his own private businesses funded. involved in payments from the government.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
You would have said that that was a crazy conspiracy to even suggest, but boy, I don't know what they'd be doing differently if they were planning on doing that. Yeah, well, that's just oligarchy, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So we are messaging about our topics for today. You know, the worse than Watergate conversation. firings at the FBI, shuttering of USAID, this racist that's going to the Secretary of State, Elon taking over the Treasury, let's see, the January 6th pardon guys raping people, the tariff, the trade war, et cetera, et cetera. So we were discussing potential topics.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He's kind of a minor columnist, and we might have him on the pod again soon. He had a piece over the weekend that said this. Trump is acting like a king because he's too weak to govern like a president. He's trying to substitute perception for reality. He's hoping that perception then becomes reality.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
You said to me, also the outrage is not high enough about what he's doing on DEI. So I just figured I'd let you cook on that for a little bit too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He did explicitly, like he was citing people with mental health issues and paraplegics and other weird stuff like that. But yeah, I mean, the implication is obvious.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
That can only happen if we believe him as part of a longer monologue about just like, this is not actually the actions of somebody who is going to take over the government in a gradual and effective way.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Well, maybe if we had more Aryans like Darren Beatty watching, you know, air traffic control, we might be in a better place. I don't know. But I wanted to let you cook on that because obviously it's racist and horrible. And I think that additionally, though, it will be illegal the way that they're targeting individuals who work in the government, who are career officials.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
You know, we already saw the one example. I think I talked on a past podcast about Dan Crenshaw. putting up a picture of a black woman and noting that she had changed her bio to take out DEI and basically saying this woman should be fired, essentially. So there's going to be racist targeting of that. I worry a little bit about the Democrats' response to this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
We're going to spend a lot of time all week on all the horrors that the Republicans are inflicting on Americans. But the Democrats had an election over the weekend where they were going to choose who was going to lead the party in opposition to this. They chose a guy named Ken Martin from Minnesota. He ran what they call the DFL party in Minnesota. He seems like a fine enough person, I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I don't know. He doesn't exactly seem like the knife in his teeth attack dog that I might have wanted for the job. I don't know him that well. Leading up to his election victory, there was a debate that happened. And I want to play a clip from the debate and then discuss something that was really...
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So for people listening, everybody raised their hand. Ken Martin, who presented up winning, was like the most excited with the hand raise. And he was like pumping his hand up to that question. Jonathan Capehart says they all win in that answer. Okay. I mean, okay. I want to get to that in a second.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
There's another segment where there's a question from somebody in the audience about whether the DNC needed to have a permanent seat or at-large seat for somebody who's transgender. There's another question about whether they needed Muslim affinity groups to do outreach to the Muslims.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Everybody on stage, all the different candidates supported both of those objectives, except for one person, Faze Shaker, who was Bernie's campaign manager. So here I am handing it to Bernie's campaign manager. But he was like, I don't know, I think maybe we should focus a little less on this stuff and obsess on this stuff a little bit less.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
These are the actions of somebody that doesn't know what they're doing and is trying to continue the fraud that he's perpetrated on the country for a long time that covers up his fundamental political weakness. What's it to you to Ezra's positive spin? These are the last two positive items of the podcast. Just saying.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And so, anyway, Will, I made you as homework watch some of this, and I'm wondering what you think. Because I was not seeing a party that learned a lot from their defeat when I was watching this candidate forum.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I mean, what you want from the leader of the DNC in this moment is somebody that's going to be the tip of the sphere in taking the fight to Donald Trump. And there was just very little of that. Again, besides FaZe, who I thought was really good, who's talking about what – and I'm trying to get him on the pod – but what he thinks the DNC could do from a communication standpoint better.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
There just was a lot of caring about the internal nonsense that nobody cares about besides random people who are obsessed with Democratic Party internal politics. I understand that it's an internal debate. And I think at a time when the stakes are lower, or back in 1998, I don't know if it was that big of a deal who the DNC chair was, and they could all hash out their own internal disagreements.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But there is a vacuum right now. And the vacuum needs to be filled by somebody on the left who is capable of being the torchbearer in the fight against Trump. And these guys just weren't it. I want to play one more clip from the outgoing. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to obsess about the identity thing here. Well, but like somebody has to say it like they need to learn about something.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And so I want to play Jamie Harrison, the outgoing DNC chair. This is him in his intro to talking about the. I guess it was the rules of the vice chair race for the DNC and making sure they had the right representation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
That goes on for another 90 seconds. I spared you the last 90 seconds, but that goes on for another 90 seconds. Is this fucking Portlandia? What are we doing here? Does the DNC need full balance between male, female, and non-binary representation on every committee? If there's a great non-binary candidate to be the vice chair of the DNC, that's awesome. I'm fine with that, Sarah McBride.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Transgender congresswoman, she seems great. Put her forth. I support that. But what are they doing? Stop obsessing over this shit. Stop. Just stop. You can care about representation and making sure that people are at the table without making yourself into a caricature that makes the country laugh at you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Like the object of the DNC right now is to build a party that can take on Donald Trump and the aspiring authoritarian that we just went over all the things that they're doing to try to make this an authoritarian country. The opposition needs to be up for that fight, not like obsessing over which committee has the right number of non-binary Native Americans. OK, we got to stop.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Snow is our care. It's absurd. We need two of every race and gender, you know, two of every sexual identity. We need two intersex, two bisexuals. We need two of everything.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
That is not true, though. Well, it is the essence of the party. Was Jamie Harrison up there talking about how we need to make sure that there's a vice chair that didn't go to college or that there's a vice chair from... communities that have been hollowed out by the economic crisis. I don't fucking know. You show people what you care about by what you talk about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
That's how you show people what you care about. And the Democrats over and over show people what they care about is identity politics, making sure everybody has a seat at the table. They just... I'm sorry. That is it. The Republicans don't do this. They don't have this happening at their meetings. And people notice that. There's crazy stuff that happens at Republican meetings. Yeah, of course.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Well, four years later, people have people are stupid and have short memories. But yeah, they didn't think so at the time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, of course. There's other crazy shit that the Republicans have. The Republicans have plenty of baggage that they have to carry. Yeah. Why? What is the value of this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I'm sorry. I don't you don't think that that's happening in meetings at Democratic HQ, that there are people in private like trying to discuss on the strategy of like, oh, we got to make sure that we're representing. I do think I do think it is impacting their strategy. I don't think that there's anybody in these rooms that are working class Americans that did not go to fucking fancy schools.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Like, I just don't think there is. I think that the rooms are full of people that care about this like campus politics shit. Like, on balance. I don't think that's true.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Right, he was the last person. He entered the race at the end because he was like, somebody has to, like... talk different.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
No, they can talk about it in a way that's normal. They can talk about it in a way that normal people talk about shit. If you wanted to say at that forum, it is outrageous that Donald Trump is kicking out of the military. people that are transgender, that volunteered to serve, and that this fucking keyboard jockey that ducked
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
The military, because he had fake bone spurs in his feet, is now trying to tell a patriotic transgender American that they have to be kicked out of the military to appease some like 22-year-old racists on Reddit? Great. Say that. Have passion in your gut for protecting people and for defending people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But like, don't just like talk about how, oh, oh, you know, we need to make sure that the AANHPI committee has enough influence, you know, and is that like, you know what I mean? Like, there's ways to talk about it that they tell how they talk about it on Portlandia. And there are ways to talk about protecting trans people in the way that they would talk about it at a dinner table in America.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. But it would be fine for me if I felt like they were at least doing their best. I want them to defend people. Marginalized people should be defended. What I don't want is stupid tokenism because they think that it's helping people when it's actually just hurting them. Okay. Final thing. Very important topic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Luka Doncic got traded to the LA Lakers, which is madness for anybody who pays attention to the NBA. At the worst, you could say he's the fourth best player in the NBA. He might be the second best player in the NBA. They traded him to the fucking Lakers, who always get the best people. For Anthony Davis, who's always hurt, I don't understand it. I feel like we are...
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
it's rigged the nba is rigged they're they're upset about the ratings or maybe miriam adelson who's the new owner of dallas maybe there's maybe she is like sabotaging the team this is like what was that movie major league where the owner was trying to sabotage the team maybe she's trying to sabotage the team because mark cuban used to be the owner and he's woke now i don't know
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So, just a little context here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Bill Kristol's on vacation. I'm here with my colleague... Will Salatin. What's up, Will?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I don't know. Who was I talking to this about last night? Oh, I was talking to JJ McCullough. We did a YouTube video on this topic and he's Canadian. He was like, he's like, won't the Magas not care? Even if they're, I guess they're probably not even buying guacamole, whatever, you know, even if their maple syrup for their pancakes is going up and won't they just think that that's,
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
It's wrong. And it doesn't make any sense. It's horrible for the Mavericks long-term, so I don't know why they would do it for their franchise. It might make them a little bit better this year, weirdly, just because Luka's been hurt. But... Ah, it's outrageous. It certainly would be the second dumbest thing to the tariffs if it wasn't for this little piece of breaking news I got for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
The president of Mexico, Claudia Scheidenbaum, says that she has reached an agreement with Trump to delay the tariff by up to a month. So it will rise to the first dumbest move, the Luca trade, over the tariffs if... The Canada tariffs also get delayed a month after Trump talks to Trudeau. Who knows?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But that is that's the state of play on our very stable economy with our very stable genius president. So, Will Salatin, do you have any final thoughts on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
What a joy. All right. Will Salatin, thanks so much. I'm next. Scott Lincecum. I'm sure you know somebody out there has been a victim of identity theft or had that credit card stolen or been stalked or doxxed. This day and age, making sure that your data is private is critical.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And as a person who exists publicly, especially someone that shares my opinions online, I'm hyper aware of safety and security. It's easier than ever for people to find personal information about me or you online. All this data hanging out there on the internet can have actual consequences. And that's why I personally recommend Delete.me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
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The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me, now at a special discount for our listeners. Today, get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and use promo code bulwark at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Slash Bulwark. Code Bulwark. All right. Hey, everybody. As I mentioned at the end of the Will Salatin interview, Trump backed off of the tariff to Mexico, at least for a month. They kicked it back a month in exchange for, I guess, 10,000 troops, Mexican troops going to the border. So I taped the Scott Lincecum part of this interview about the trade war before that news came out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
We're going to keep that in here because Scott provides a lot of really kind of interesting analysis of how this stuff works in practice. And, you know, these threats and bluffs and backoffs and, you know, this whole rigmarole, we're going to be living through this for the next few years. So I think it is still very relevant to hear from Scott on what the implications are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And as I'm taping this right now, we don't know what, if anything, will happen with the Canadian and China tariffs, whether we'll try to punch those back a month as well or not. So we will see what happens. And we're back with my buddy Scott Lincecum. He's the Vice President of General Economics and Trade at the Cato Institute. He's an adjunct professor at Duke Law School.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
you know, whatever part of Trump's grand plan. And I was like, yeah, but the problem is he got a lot of votes from people that did not have those strong ties, right. That were annoyed by prices and had some, you know, annoyances about the cultural shift left of the Democrats. And maybe they cared about crime or immigration. Right. But like,
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He writes the Capitalism Newsletter for the Dispatch, subtly titled. And he also said, is this right? You're the progenitor of the viral t-shirt, tariffs not only impose economic costs, but also fail to achieve their primary policy aims and foster political dysfunction along the way. You can see why that's a popular t-shirt. Yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yes. Increasing and increasing as the minutes go by. Well, I wanted to have you on as, you know, a local tariff expert to dig deep on this. The Wall Street Journal called it the stupidest trade war in history. So I'm turning to you for both the kind of the big picture. And now we agree that it's bad. So that part is covered. But like what exactly is happening? And then kind of we'll dig into it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
The Canadian fentanyl emergency. I've been hearing lots about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
There's not. I think we can say at the board that there is not a Canadian fentanyl crisis. I mean, I guess every ounce, every gram of fentanyl that comes across the border is a tragedy, as RFK would say about abortions. But I don't think it rises to the level of crisis.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
there are people that are not in the cult that were for him. And I do think that some of them are going to maybe experience the consequences of the vote, but we'll see.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
We should get into the legal side of this and what legal remedies there are. But just just to be clear on what the political side of this is. I mean, Trump acknowledged what you're saying is that there will be some disruption. He said we may have short term some a little pain. I don't remember him saying that during the campaign, but he acknowledged yesterday that there will be pain for people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He said recently, nothing can be done to forestall tariffs. We have very big deficits and tariffs are something that we are doing. Canada has treated us very unfairly. J.D. Vance writes yesterday, spare me the sob story. He's such a dick. Spare me the sob story about how Canada is our best friend. I love Canada and have many Canadian friends. Quick fact check.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I find that very challenging to believe that J.D. Vance has said.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But does J.D. has friends that are Canadian? I'd like to see the evidence of that. But is the government meeting their NATO target for military spending? Are they stopping the flow of drugs in the country? I'm sick of being taken advantage of. And these guys are all over the place. Right. I mean, even in their own messaging, like the fentanyl thing is just such an obvious fig leaf.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He's like he's talking about NATO and all this other shit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, I liked this observation by Brendan Duke. He said it was just three months ago. Trump was green lighting a pipeline from Canada to own the American libs. But now he's starting a trade war with Canada because he says we import too much oil from them. Right. And it is the whole thing is just incoherent. I get it betrays.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He understands or at least somebody around him understood like the value of of bringing Canadian oil, for the very reason you said, you know, to places where it's geographically convenient and, you know, where it works. But I guess, you know, that is not as important now as the tariff temper tantrum.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So let's just do 101 here. All right. So the tariff, I was getting a text from a buddy last night. He's like, so who collects the tariff again? Right. I mean, like, we're just trying to, you know, remember our, our, you know, macro 101 from college here. So the tariff at the border, the tariff is actually collected from the importer. Yes. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So, you know, it's not, it's not as if the Canadian exporter then pays a quarter on every dollar to the US government. The importer pays that when they bring it in. Is that right? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
No, he's been texting me. There's definitely no vacation for him mentally, but he does get one day off the podcast. Can I start with something positive, though? Go ahead, man. I don't know if you'll find it positive, but I'm feeling good about a couple of things this morning. All right? Tell me. Here's number one. this is a shit show. This is a total shit show. And I knew it would be a shit show.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
How do those economic ones happen? Like the US, we send them a bill? Like, sorry, you're fucking with us?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
All right. Well, I don't like this roll switch. Okay. I'm the pony. I'm finding the pony. You're trying to bring me into darkness. I don't take it. Just let me have it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Well, that'll be great for infrastructure costs and all the issues, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
It's a guy from Mexico. He's driving up in his truck with avocados. He's crossing the border legally. Is the customs guy counting the avocados and giving him a bill? How does that actually happen?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a pony for me. All right. Things are getting darker from here. So I hope everybody enjoyed that segment. Will, our colleague Bill Kristol, wasn't so much on vacation that he couldn't write a newsletter this morning. He wrote about the scandals that are currently embroiling the administration that are worse than Watergate.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
The guy shipping it in is getting the bill, but I thought the importer was supposed to be paying for it because then they just charge the importer on the back end.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
It'd be kind of awesome. I talked to some mad Canadians last night. So there might be some maple syrup getting chucked across the border.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So you kind of mentioned this, but what about just the broader structural supply chain challenges, right? Because if you're a U.S. automaker, some of this stuff's coming from China through Mexico to the U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Oh, it's a complex widget. It has a couple different parts. Yeah, a lot.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He starts with the firings at the FBI for people that have not been following this. There were, I guess, six high-level FBI officials that were involved. escorted out of the building late last week. Then there were other FBI officials that were involved in the Trump administration that they were trying to have relieved of their duties.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
We can say what the fuck here, but yeah, I got a kid.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Well, that's going to do good things for prices, I think. The other funny thing I saw about this, two more funny things I want to share with you. One was they've removed the de minimis exception. Yes. And so this was like, you know, if a Canadian grandma wants to send her American, you know, wants to send a gift. Right. To her grandchild who now lives in Austin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
They got to pay a tariff on that now. I guess we're going to have external revenue service people like 20 year olds Elon hires from the Reddit message board I guess is going to be going through the mail to figure out if there are any tariffs that need to happen now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I just think we're going to take all the people from USAID and we're going to make them border agents.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But the acting FBI director, Brian Driscoll, actually refused to agree with that request. And in a message to staff on Saturday, he reminded FBI agents of their rights to due process and review in accordance with existing policy and law. We had a letter at the Bulwark this morning that comes from the Society of Former FBI Agents, which is not a group that is particularly political.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I also like this from Chuck Grassley this morning. He's trying to blame Biden, of course. Biden, inflation increased the input cost to farmers by 20%, including particularly the high prices on fertilizer. So I plead with President Trump to exempt potash from the tariff because family farmers get most of our potash from Canada.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I was wondering if that was a typo because Chuck Grassley does a lot of typos. I'm not a farm boy. I'm from the suburbs, but my farm husband informs me that potash is a real thing. Yes. And it's in fertilizer. Correct. Correct. And that's a big problem. So now we have individual centers begging Mr. Trump for mercy for random products.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And I think we found the feature for the-
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I mean – But Scheinbaum and Trudeau are trying to counteract that by targeting – red state businesses. Yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I did a whole segment on YouTube with our Canadian pal, JJ, that people can go find. I'll put the link in the show notes. And it's – they're hot. They're hot under the collar up there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And they are saying that this is an obvious disruption to FBI operations, the degree to which it can't be overstated. The forced retirement of director, deputy director, and now all five executive assistant directors. They say that this extreme disruption is occurring at a time when the terrorist threat around the world has never been greater. It's putting us at great risk.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So you wrote this one, you think the impact here, if they actually go through with it, could be the biggest one-year tax increase ever?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Now that's a good place to end. Thanks to Will Salatin, Scott Lincecum. Everybody else, we'll see you back here tomorrow.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And we have basically, you know, the weekend of the long knives at the FBI. And this is coming to a head with the Kash Patel vote coming up in the Senate.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, I don't really care if the public cares at this point. It's like, that's a problem for fall of 2026. I think that the substantive element here that you talked about, like at the beginning, is about how scary it is. You were smart to tie this to the pardons, and we had another story out over the weekend. I guess it's the 4th
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Person that was pardoned that has had another altercation with police. This one is Dylan Harrington. He was nicknamed the MAGA Lumberjack. He was arrested for rape. He's raping a woman who is blacked out and did not consent. He had pleaded guilty to assaulting, resisting and impeding officers, was sentenced to 37 months in prison and Trump had pardoned him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
We told everybody it would. But, you know, there was always a chance that Trump would get in there and, I don't know, decide not to do anything, right? And just kind of bleat and get people to call him sir and not actually do anything and take credit for things that were already kind of percolating positively from the Biden administration. That was one option that could have happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So you have that, you have the paramilitary organization, you said, you have this unlawful firing of career federal law enforcement officials, high level law enforcement officials.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
We talked about this with Andrew Weissman on Friday, just about like how important it is to institutional knowledge to have these people and judgment, you know, given the most challenging cases, we've gotten rid of all those people. And then JVL tied it also to what is happening with Elon Musk, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Where Elon Musk is now taking over the Treasury Department, going into USAID, having his little 20-year-old Doge officials try to bully career officials, get access to classified information, get access to personal financial information. And JVL's point is like, look, if you've cleansed the law enforcement agencies of anyone who would be willing to investigate
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
members of the own administration, then members of your own administration can act with impunity and can commit illegal actions, which Elon Musk is doing. Right. So all of this is an attack on the rule of law.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, I mean, here's just one example of what was happening with USAID. This is from CNN. Officials with Musk's so-called Department of Government Efficiency sparked a tense clash with USAID administrators over the weekend by demanding access to its physical headquarters and digital systems, threatening to call security when the agency refused.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
The incident led to two more senior USAID security officials being placed on leave, and Doge ultimately succeeded in getting classified information. I mean, like that is... That is Hungary. We're doing this thing where it's like we're having these conversations where it's like, are they on the path to Hungary? Are we on the path to Russia? What are they going to try to do?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But instead... We have JVL this morning in the triad predicting a stock market crash. And all the topics we're about to go over is them messing things up. I don't know. Can we not have some pleasure in that? Knowing that they're as bad as we thought they would be?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Hello and welcome to the Bulldog Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got a two-parter today. I added a bonus segment with Scott Lincecum, who's a trade expert, to talk about the tariffs that are imminent and already rollicking the stock market. But first, it's back for the old-timers, for the OGs. You might remember Will Salatin Mondays. Well, they're back right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
How much of this is just PR? How much of this is whatever, Trump bleeding, illiberal things? This is unelected people that I assume don't have security clearances or background checks yet because they're just random officials with Doge going in and bullying existing high-level national security officials with clearances to get classified information.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And then, obviously, the next step of this is to then shut down USAID, which is coming, which reports say are coming. USAID signs were taken down from the Reagan building. They're going to put it under Secretary of State, I guess. That's blatantly not legal. It is thug autocracy. That's what that is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, throw China in there too, obviously.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Well, go ahead and continue down that path, because you said you wanted to talk about the geopolitics of the trade wars. And obviously, we'll get into this more with Scott, but that all ties together, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I mean, this is an effort to completely isolate America from our allies, from having influence in parts of the world where there's competition for influence with the more authoritarian regimes, right? And the trade war is directly connected to shutting down USAID in that sense. And it's also directly connected to the coming threats to NATO that we're going to be seeing in the coming months.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Also, there's one exception to the Wii situation for sports fans out there. I do sometimes call the Denver Nuggets Wii, and I'm not playing for the team. But I think this is maybe a little bit different. But maybe that's cashes out. The problem, though, as you mentioned, is the whole testimony was not convinced. He was just obviously lying throughout the entire testimony.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And there was how he's like, oh, I don't believe in QAnon anymore. And, oh, I wasn't even involved in conversations about who to pardon anymore. And I had no idea what Trump would do about that. And the testimony was like, I just need to lie enough to give the handful of Republicans who are pretending like they're still normal and care about the rule of law, a fig leaf to be able to confirm me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So you taped yesterday after the hearing had started. So we played the one clip about him being asked by Durbin about Stu Peters. You know, have you heard of Stu Peters? No, I don't know. That doesn't ring a bell. And it's like, well, you did his podcast eight times. And who is Stu Peters? It was a far right podcaster that spoke at Nick Fuentes' anti-Semitic Hitler youth group that he has.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The lies were just so obvious and blatant. They were reminiscent of a child's lies. Yes. They weren't like high quality, like little lies where it's like trying to shade language one way or the other. It's just like the word we doesn't mean what it means. Or I've never heard of this person that I've talked to eight times on camera or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I said clearly that Donald Trump declassified the documents. Now I don't even know what the documents are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
It seems to me like he's going to get through him. I talked about at the top, I think that there's a Cassidy situation. It's kind of interesting with RFK. The buzz from Tulsi is not that great. I kind of will believe it when I see it as far as these guys actually opposing, these guys being the Republican senators, actually opposing any of Trump's nominees when the rubber meets the road.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
But the buzz on Cash is not that. It seems like we're in a Hegseth type situation where they're going to jam him through. As somebody that was there in the building, what worries you most about a Kash Patel bureau?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And he was just as a quick aside, Cash was asked about this by Cory Booker yesterday because the report leaked out before the hearing was over. Yes. And Booker said, are you aware of these plans to punish in any way, including termination, FBI agents or personnel associated with Trump investigations? And again, another like obvious lie.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I'm not aware of that, Senator, which is just, you know, kind of.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Well, I mean, I don't know. It's a meritocracy now. We've gotten rid of all the DEI and everything. So you would think that maybe this is, maybe it is cash. Maybe they've looked at everything. They've made decisions just on merit. Is it megatocracy? Just merit only. It's all they're looking at. I'm just such a neophyte in this. I don't really know how these investigations work.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I don't know how the building works. What are some negative consequences of having senior officials fired, having a total clown be in charge of the bureau, putting in Trump's sycophants? What are some things that worry you?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And just for people, because sometimes it's hard unless you're really watching a lot of spy movies or are deep into the news, the FBI's remit as opposed to the other agencies when it comes to terrorist threats?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Talk to me about the morale inside and your thoughts on that, because that's the other thing that's kind of hard for me to give a sense for. Because, I don't know, there's a part of me that says...
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Like, if I am a career FBI official who's been nonpartisan, investigating domestic terrorists, investigating big drug ginkg pins, you know, investigating whatever, murders, and, you know, I've moved up the ranks. And now this clown is in charge. Part of me is like, I don't know. I wonder how much I could get paid to go do some private security for some famous people. Because this seems awful.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
But maybe that's wrong. I don't know. Maybe that's wrong. Maybe there's a lot of MAGA people in there that are excited about cash. Or maybe their mindset is so much different than mine that they're just like, whatever. It doesn't matter who's in charge. What do you think about the morale?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So Cassidy's a doctor, as he said, and... He voted to convict Donald Trump in the second impeachment. Those are the two key facts here. And I think that it's pretty clear that he's weighing what to do. And so my message to Bill Cassidy is just go out with your head held high, man. You can do the right thing here. I think that opposing...
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
A lot of KMAs probably. The other thing that I wanted to ask about Cash and just sort of his remit and the scariest thing. And I guess we'll do a little macabre humor to start this question. But obviously, there is the enemies list. He pretends like he didn't have an enemies list. But I mean, he literally had one. And it was an appendix in the book.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And he talked about it all the time on all the various podcasts that he forgets that he was on now, apparently. I interviewed Steve Bannon about this about two months ago. And asked him, I was like, Are you guys serious about this? Like, who do you want cash to target if he's in there? And then, you know, it's like, Yeah, I'm serious.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And I was like, Okay, well, who do you think should be targeted? He starts listing names. And he lists you. Andrew Weissman was right there on the list. Andy McCabe. These guys watch a lot of cable. So the cable news lawyers were the top of the list. Those are the real guys you need to go after. And then we'll figure out who else is in the shadows in the deep state to figure them out later.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
But we're coming for the cable news lawyers first. That's a great motto. Go for the cable news lawyers. So this next question might have some implications for you. But the thing that worries me about cash is the FBI has a pretty broad remit to make people's lives miserable before you get to a lot of checks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And so I'm curious what you kind of think about that, like what your worries are about the investigations and whoever has the old Andrew Weissman job as the general counsel, what kind of oversight they'll have over, you know, just sort of opening up the book on people's lives and making things hard for them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
RFK and preventing him from becoming the Secretary of Health and Human Services is something that is both the right thing for him to do for the country, for the health of the people that live in this country, but also maybe for him politically and certainly for his legacy. Let's just kind of go through all this. Look, Bill Cassidy broke it down in the hearing. He knows that RFK Jr.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So you're not changing your day-to-day life thinking about the Kash Patel FBI. I'm still here doing my thing with the bulwark. All right. Have you done any Googling of expatriate laws just in like your darker moments? I have not. Okay. Keep me posted. The first time you do that, Google, because I think you're kind of higher up the list than me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So, you know, the first time you start thinking you got to start Googling about it, then just give me a heads up so I can... Are you jealous, Tim? I'm with you. I'm joking about it. I know this is a joke, but I'm with you. I am way more worried about incompetent people being in charge of our security and what the impact could be. On that, I'm way more worried about many of these other stories.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
One of the things I was rage posting about last night was a story about a guy who is undocumented immigrant, but he's married to an American citizen. So he's in the green card process. He has kids that are American citizens. They were going to buy formula products.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
For their baby, for one of the kids, the husband and the wife, they got pulled over allegedly for speeding or running a stop sign or something. And the guy's in ICE detention now. The cop called ICE. You know, I'm way more worried about people like that than the cable news lawyers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Yeah, if you think there was a lot of elite failure the last few decades, just wait. Just wait until the idiocracy comes forth, and then you'll really see the new elite failure. I want to also ask you about the DOJ firings, because it's related. you know, some of these 74 FBI officials, like you said, are going to be pushed out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The people that are investigating Trump as part of Jack Smith, et cetera. I guess there's some questions about whether this is even legal. So it's a two part question for you is just like, what's your sense for what's happening and, and whether they're going to get away with it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The Merit System, that's interesting. Merit System Protection.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
is not the right person to lead HHS. He knows. I mean, he said it clearly that it is irresponsible and dangerous to have somebody that is a vaccine conspiracist running these agencies. He gave you an example of what the consequences of that might be, of deaths. Tommy Vitor talked about this yesterday, of what we saw in Samoa. We've seen the increase already in
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I'm getting old, so I can kind of remember things. I know you can remember things now. I wouldn't love to remember Alberto Gonzalez getting run out of town.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
It is wild just when you think about that trajectory, though. Yeah. Alberto Gonzalez was forced to resign over something that was the first act, like basically the same exact, actually a worse version of that was the first act of the incoming Trump attorney general. So this is happening across the board, you know, and just stuff keeps leaking out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
There's a Post story this morning about someone, a senior official at Treasury, who I guess was in charge of Payment systems that, you know, how people get their Social Security checks, etc. And Elon, our shadow president, wanted control of the payment system. I don't know if he's going to pay people in Dogecoin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I don't know exactly why he wanted the system that the guy is saying that he's going to quit. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
What is your sense for SCOTUS? I ask every actual lawyer, actual SCOTUS watcher that comes on here what they think because there's just a range of views. When it comes to all these sorts of challenges, I don't know. To me, it's like birthright citizenship. I feel pretty good SCOTUS will uphold the just plain text of the Constitution.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
But on all this kind of stuff, impoundment, firing of career civil servants, because that's where this is all going, right? Isn't this all going to the Supreme Court eventually? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
in instances of whooping cough and some of these other you know diseases that we have immunizations for if that proliferates there will be young people to die if that proliferates the country all of us all of our kids will become less protected from disease like bill cassidy knows this he does And so just from a medical standpoint, from a health standpoint, the obvious vote here is no.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
All right, just two other legal stories related to the media, since you're, you know, A lawyer in the media. A rage over the possible paramount CBS settlement over 60 Minutes is unbounded. For people who have not followed this, 60 Minutes aired an interview with Kamala Harris where they had a preview of the show that showed an exchange with her and Bill Whitaker that looked one way.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And then in the actual program, the exchange was different. And the reason for this is because previews of shows are very short and people that are making commercials are trying to cut up very long interviews in ways that make it coherent and make it enticing for a viewer to come watch.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
It's something that is just totally standard procedure in every interview, particularly in a long magazine show like 60 Minutes. Like what 60 Minutes did was totally pro forma, If it's happened one time, it's happened a million times. Donald Trump sued over this because who knows why?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Sued for $10 billion, saying that CBS was biasing in favor of Kamala because they made her answer more coherent than it really was. That was the claim. It is a preposterous lawsuit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And a report out yesterday says that many executives at CBS's parent company, Paramount, believe that settling this lawsuit would increase the odds that the Trump administration does not block or delay their planned multi-billion dollar merger. If they fucking settle this suit and you are a Paramount Plus subscriber, unsubscribe. Maybe unsubscribe now and start sending them a message.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I don't care if you like Yellowstone or whatever's on there. This is fucking outrageous. So I don't know if you have additional thoughts about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
From a political standpoint, if you're Bill Cassidy, right now you're going to be up for Senate for reelection. The way that elections work in Louisiana, Senate and federal primaries are closed primaries, traditional primaries. So it's just Republicans that can vote in them. There's already a guy, John Fleming, that has said that he is going to challenge Cassidy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The ABC, the Stephanopoulos suit was at least kind of an in the eye of the beholder type lawsuit about whether somebody was slandered. I think that ABC and Disney would have won that suit. But the 60-minute suit is a category difference from that. The 60-minute lawsuit was written in crayon or smeared with poop onto a piece of paper. And it is the stupidest fucking thing that I've ever seen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And the idea that they would settle something.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I'm having trouble understanding your argument. Again, I didn't know that much about the FBI thing, so I couldn't be quite as outraged as you about the Kash Patel lawsuit. I've worked on 60-minute stories. I know how this works. This is a $10 billion lawsuit because they cut a preview of an interview that didn't include the full context. It is just...
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
idiotic we can say the r word again i don't but that that is really what it is anyway i don't know if you have anything else on that but no i don't i'm done i'm feeling your pain though all right you never know because you might get targeted who the hell knows you might get sued now over and and maybe so i think civil suits are definitely going to be a way forward for this administration no oh yeah question bullying people i mean because it works because all these gazillionaires are folding
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Because they want their merger to happen. They don't want Mr. Trump to be mean to them about their merger. these paramount executives, you better, you better not settle this suit. FCC is also opening investigation into the NPR and PBS.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Brendan Carr, the new chairman, uh, sent a letter this week to the heads of NPR and PBS announcing an investigation into the public outlets for airing sponsorships, a long time practice. Trump had bleeded in April and all caps, no more funding for NPR, a total scam. Editor said they have no Republicans. I don't know if that is, uh, That's related. But I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Kash Patel yesterday during the hearing was saying that they were not going to politicize anything. There are not going to be any more political investigations. What do you think? You think that this is on the up and up here, this FCC investigation?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
There is another guy that is a MAGA local elected official that's looking at challenging Cassidy. There was some, there's some drama down here in Louisiana that, uh, Cassidy had denied that guy, I'm blanking on his name, but had denied him tickets to the DC Mardi Gras ball. That's how you do hardball politics in Louisiana.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
That's an uplifting place for us to close for the weekend pod. Andrew Weissman.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Welcome to the Bulldog Podcast. Thank you so much for doing it. Let's do it again sometime. Remember his podcast, Main Justice. You can check that out if you want to nerd out with Andrew Weissman and his subtext behind the headlines with Andrew Weissman. We'll be talking to you soon. Thanks, Tim. Everybody else, we'll be back Monday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Bill's on a little holiday, so I got Will Salatin Mondays are back. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Rep Clay Higgins, who's one of the most insane members of the House of Representatives, who is from down here in Louisiana, sent a threatening tweet to Bill Cassidy yesterday with his picture. It says, RFK is going to run HHS whether you like it or not. So these guys are going to try to bully him and they're going to run against him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
This is, as many of you have probably figured out, as much about you as it is about giving myself a pep talk, as the siren song of nihilism is quite appealing to me. But when there appears to be an opening for anyone to but particularly an elected Republican, to do the right thing, we should encourage it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And it's just hard for me to see, even if Bill Cassidy comes around and does the right thing, we've just seen too many examples of this. Brian Kemp is like the one example of somebody that bucked Trump and survived. And I'm just telling you, the electorate in Georgia is different than the electorate in Louisiana.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And I just I don't see how somebody that voted to convict Donald Trump and ban him from running for office again is going to win a Republican primary in Louisiana. So politically speaking, doing this because he thinks it might help him win reelection to the Senate, I think is foolish. I think that there's potentially a political future for him if he wants it to try to run for governor here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
He thought about doing that in 2023. He considered that. I haven't heard anybody speculate that he might run in 2027, but who knows? Governor's races here are different. It's not a closed Republican primary. Everybody votes. It's an open, it's called jungle primary. Everybody votes in the first round. The top two go to a runoff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So in theory, two Republicans could get to a runoff and the more normal Republican could win with votes from Republicans and Democrats and independents. It's possible. It's, it's, It's an outside chance. But if you're Bill Cassidy, that is a more conceivable path to me than running for reelection to the Senate for him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And doing that, I think it would benefit him to have a more of an independent reputation. And then there's the legacy. This is a person that's been a conservative senator. He could leave and retire and be proud of his career as a doctor and as a conservative senator who was somebody that represented the interests of Louisiana and only bucked the party line two times.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
One time when Donald Trump attempted a coup. And one time when Donald Trump tried to put an insane person in charge of the health agency in this country. And that is the type of resume that eventually, when the dust settles on all this, gets you a statue or an airport name or something. That is the kind of thing that is in the top of your obituary.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So if you're Bill Cassidy, you have the chance to do what you know is right, to do what is right politically, to do what is right for your legacy if you oppose the nomination of RFK to be the head of HHS. So I hope you do that, Bill Cassidy. I hope you do the right thing. And if you're listening and you do not live in Louisiana, I asked my husband, the lobbyist, about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
If you do not live in Louisiana, do not call Bill Cassidy's office. If you live in California, do not call Bill Cassidy's office. That is not helpful. If you live in Louisiana... If you live here or if you have family that live here, tell them to do this. Call his office. Email him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
If you happen to be a big money donor, maybe send a text message through that you'd love to support that governor's campaign. If you live in Louisiana. Do what you can to encourage Bill Cassidy to do the right thing, because the way that the math works, it becomes very challenging for RFK to get through if the committee chairman, the Republican committee chairman opposes him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So not getting our hopes up. I'm not being loosey with the football. We're saying, come on, Bill, you can do this. You got it. Go Tigers. Big win for the women's basketball team last night. I'm going to be there on Sunday watching the game. Do it. Be proud. You got this. Bill Cassidy. Say no to RFK. All right. Up next, Andrew Weissman. All right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
We should not despair and be without all hope that somebody might do the right thing in these moments. I'm not saying we should be gullible or taken advantage of or be loosey with the football here, but... In strategic moments and moments of conscience and crisis, sometimes people do the right thing. We saw it with Mike Pence. We've seen it before.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I'm here with former FBI general counsel and former Justice Department prosecutor, also lead prosecutor in Bob Mueller's investigation of Russia interference in the 2016 election. He's now a professor of practice at NYU Law School, co-host of MSNBC's podcast, Main Justice. And he started a sub stack. Who hasn't? It's Behind the Headlines with Andrew Wiseman. Hey, Andrew. Hi. How are you?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
What's happening? Oh, nothing. There's nothing. Keeps me up. It's such a slow news period. Yeah. You don't have much on your plate, you know? Just kind of hanging out, decorating the apartment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Yeah, that was nice. And then the inverse of it, like last night between, I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
10 30 and 11 30 i was angry tweeting like that wasn't something i didn't do that really that much in 20 in 2022 i wouldn't say but such is life i have you here because we want to talk cash and the cash patel hearing yesterday and then the various other legal brouhahas but before we just kind of get into your wheelhouse can we just have a little amuse bouche can we just do one for kicks
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Let's go for it. Okay. The Vice President of the United States, one of the most appalling people in the country. I want to play a little audio of him talking about... You're not a Catholic, I don't think, Weissman. I'm stereotyping. But as a cradle Catholic, sometimes we get a little... a little bent out of shape about the adult converts. I like that cradle convert. Yeah, we're the OG here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And so I don't really like being lectured by people that decided that they were Catholic two seconds ago. But let's listen to J.D. Vance's understanding of Catholic doctrine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And then after that, that's very common.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Jesus was like Bethlehem first. Immigrants come last. Bethlehem first, Egypt last. It was a very common thing. So he got made fun of on the internet for this. And our vice president was tweeting a lot yesterday. He was tweeting this. Yeah, absolutely. This false arrogance drives so much elite failure over the last 40 years. Who the fuck even knows what IQ numbers are?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And then just as a little bonus for him on his tweet storm, he also started weighing in on taking down of the Mark Milley picture from the Pentagon in favor, obviously. And he writes this, the vice president again. Imagine having lived through the last 10 years, the desecration of Washington, Jefferson, Lee, Roosevelt, and even Lincoln, and then drawing the line at Mark Milley.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And I think that there's a chance that my Senator Bill Cassidy might do the right thing. So I want to send a message to him and to you guys. But first, let's listen to a little bit of his closing statement from the RFK Jr.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I'm going to read that list one more time in case you missed it. The desecration of Washington, Jefferson, Lee, Roosevelt, and even Lincoln. He just snuck Lee in there, you know, just like right in the middle of the list. Just those little, just those little winky wink to the Confederates.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Hello and welcome to the Bullwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got my friend Andrew Weissman up here in a minute to talk about Kash Patel and the various legal issues swirling around the second Trump administration. But I want to talk first about my senator here in Louisiana, Bill Cassidy. I've frequently... been talking about avoiding the temptation to slip into nihilism.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Yeah. I mean, he's third at best because we've got the shadow president that we'll get to in a little bit. That's true. I hear everything that you said except for more traditional vice president. Traditionally, vice presidents aren't really shit posting. Honestly, if you told me... If the New York Times Maggie Haberman dropped a story tomorrow and she was like, I've got this big exclusive.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And she gave me a little tip. And it was like, J.D. Vance is actually behind the Twitter feed and wokeness. He's like tweeting from the vice president's office and wokeness. I'd be like, okay, that sounds right to me. And he is indistinguishable from like a random MAGA troll. Fair enough. Which is a little unusual, I guess, for the vice president. Fair enough. Sorry to nitpick, Andrew.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Sorry to nitpick. Words matter. And as some evidence for that, I want to start with one clip from the Kash Patel hearing that really tickled me. And then we'll get into the more serious matters from the Kash Patel confirmation. Let's listen to him and Adam Schiff kind of having a little linguistic battle over the word we.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
It goes on for another minute. Obviously, we're talking about the J6 choir there that Cash was a producer of. And we found out that Bulwark reporting actually found out that some of the singers in the choir were among the violent insurrectionists, not just the insurrectionists that were wandering around. So I don't know. You are a prosecutor, not me. Would that really work for you?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
You know, if somebody was talking about how like we robbed a bank and then he's like, I was talking about the editorial, the royal we, not me.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Wir haben gesehen, dass andere Law-Firmen stärker kämpfen, was ermutigend ist. Was monitoriert ihr mit den Law-Firmen?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
And that is disappointing, but you got to start somewhere. So there you go. April 5th, Hands Off America rallies. All right. Our guest today is a former colleague. She's a writer and editor at Protect Democracy. She's a co-author of the authoritarian playbook for 2025 and a contributor to Protect Democracy's If You Can Keep It sub stack. It's Amanda Carpenter. How you doing, girl?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Hey guys, if you loved yesterday's episode with John Lovett, then you're gonna love the YouTube series we're doing together called Speech Center, where we dissect political speeches with insight and chaos and gayness and laughs and despair.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
John, as you all know by now, is the host of Love It or Leave It, America's top late night political gay live comedy podcast, where he takes on the biggest and most absurd stories in politics, helping you stay informed while laughing instead of crying. You can tell that John's producer wrote that. This season is promising some big name guests. Unexpected conversations and can't miss moments.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
He does a monologue with jokes. They're mostly funny. He does captivating interviews. Captivating, love it. Are they captivating? They're pretty captivating. They're at times captivating. The one I saw last week with Tom Green. You remember Tom Green? I haven't seen that guy in ages. It was hilarious. What's happened with Tom Green is crazy. Love It pulled it out of him.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Anyway, plus he's got signature segments and games. Love It or Leave It delivers the type of comedy you won't find anywhere else. So, go catch new episodes of Love It or Leave It every Saturday. Watch on YouTube and go catch Speech Center on YouTube or join a live show in LA to witness the Love It chaos in person. We're going to do some more positive at the very end, because it's the weekend.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
But I've got to take us to the reality. I know, I know. I've got to bring us back to dark reality. Sorry, sorry. The Vice President, the Second Lady and the National Security Advisor are in Greenland today. To set the tone for this conversation, I want to play for you. The intro to this news story on ABC Nightly News, whatever they fucking call it, ABC World News tonight, last night.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
This is a dramatic moment in the struggle for Greenland. The struggle for Greenland? What is happening?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
That was ABC News. That was not like Don't Look Up. That was not a clip from a spoof movie. Like just dead serious, staring down the camera, Terry Moran, the struggle for Greenland. What is the fucking struggle? What are we doing? What is happening?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
I want to add a little element to this. This is from Danish TV 2. I want to shout this story out because this is my favorite story of the week. Apparently we sent some advanced people door to door in Greenland to find someone who would welcome Usha into their home. And they couldn't find anybody.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
They couldn't find a single person that would allow the second lady of the United States to come into their home to eat some whale blubber or whatever they do in Greenland. They couldn't find a single person. I love that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Sorry Cruella, the people of Greenland have watched 101 Dalmatians. You know, it's not, it's not landing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Ich bin froh, mit dir hier zu sein.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
I don't know. I am not putting Usha on the level of Mother. Mother has shown more integrity so far in 2025 than every single person in the Republican Party. A handful of Democrats. Most big law. Mother is stalwart.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
I don't think they have spas in Greenland. What is it like?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
A snow spa? What would they do? There's only 50,000 people in Greenland. Greenland is as big as Monroe, Louisiana. There's no spas in Monroe. I mean, you know, maybe there's...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
A Cabin Chalet? I don't think this exists.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
You do? I don't think it's like the UP. People of Nuke can give us a note. Because we're on your side.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Yeah, if you have a spa, some kind of ice spa or cold plunge, you can invite me.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
They definitely don't have a Sephora in Nuke. I don't think they do. It is a tiny, there's nobody there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
I'm not hard. Here's the thing. We want to laugh. And me and JVL, if you're as obsessed with the story as JVL is, we did the Bullard Takes feed for our bonus feed, so go check that out. Me and JVL did like 45 minutes on this last night because he just can't not talk about it. So there's the laughter. But like, if you are in Nuke, oder wenn du in Dänemark bist, musst du das ernst nehmen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Ich meine, Putin hat gestern Abend eine Rede gegeben, wo er sagte, die Amerikaner haben einen Punkt hier. Ich meine, sie müssen ihre strategischen Bedürfnisse im Arktik betrachten. Also, Like Putin is seeing it from the serious point of view. If you're in Greenland and Denmark, you have to take it seriously. And they've been talking about it all week.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
And they went from just sending the second lady to then having the VP give an interview where he's like, the Danes aren't being a good ally, even though they're spending money. Das ist faszinierend. Ich würde mich intimidieren, wenn ich in Greenland wäre. Right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
I'm finding some joy in the backbone of the Greenlanders. I love the Danish Prime Minister, Met. She's awesome. So I am finding some joy in that. To me, this is like, are we sure that they aren't just going to Also versuchen, den amerikanischen Flagg auf dem Boden zu legen und zu sagen, das ist jetzt unseres.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Ich möchte dich über Elon sprechen. Ich mache das für jeden Konservativen und Ex-Konservativen, der hier kommt, nur um ein bisschen Level zu setzen. Offensichtlich ist das, was wir wollten. Ja. Ich habe eine Antwort auf diese Frage, aber ich frage mich, was deine Antwort ist, was wir von Elon und Doge sehen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Okay, no, me neither. That was also my response. Also, you know, there are some other things that conservatives were for besides cutting government waste. Things like being fiscally responsible, balancing the budget. Something these guys aren't doing. Like that's the whole farce of this whole thing. They're putting forth a budget that is going to increase the debt and deficit by trillions.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Ja, genau. So just do it. It's not actually going to save any money if you illegally fire people and then they all sue the government and get paid restitution for not working. The whole thing is preposterous.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
On top of your unstable element of having this foreigner who doesn't really understand American values being in charge of this, I want to play Elon Musk last night with Brett Baer talking about Senator Mark Kelly.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Und Brett Bares Gesicht ist einfach so, was redest du da? Sein Mund war sehr trocken, habe ich bemerkt, jetzt, als ich nur das Audio höre. Ja. does sound like, you know, I don't know. I've heard some people at widespread panic shows that have mouths that sound that dry. I don't know what Elon's doing, but anyway.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
I want to go to the economy next. I just want to say one thing about the other point that you made first. looking into Tesla vandals as terrorists. Elizabeth Newman, she was in DHS in the first term, came out to the ad for Republican Voters Against Trump. I love her.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
It's funny, her origin kind of story about why she ended up being a whistleblower or whatever you want to call it from the first Trump administration was that she was in DHS as an expert on domestic terrorism and at the time there was a lot of Yeah, chatter and worry about white nationalist domestic terror here in the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Yeah, get outside, get some vitamin D. Go to a rally, take a run. Go to a crawfish boil. That's what I'll be doing this weekend. I have my note for beginning the podcast with Protect Democracy, Amanda Potpourri. I mean, there's so many threats to democracy out there that I don't want to be in charge of what the biggest threat is, where the doomsday clock is the closest to midnight.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
And she was presenting reports, you know, talking about what to prioritize and, you know, what they should be looking into and political people inside the administration. Das ist nicht das, worauf wir uns konzentrieren. Wir freuen uns nicht darüber. Das ist die TLDR, was ihre Hauptprobleme waren, die sie schlussendlich verlassen haben. Das ist nicht so eine softe Politikierung.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Es ist nicht so, dass wir Wilmer Hale oder so targetieren. Das ist overt. Es gibt eine subterranen Version davon, die diese Leute priorisieren. die du gerade siehst.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Und bei der DOJ, um die V-Pitch-Example zu verwenden, das Signal-Ding, richtig, wie wieder einmal, hatte, wie ein random Kapitän, in Jeffrey Goldberg verabschiedet, er würde, er würde beobachtet werden, wie die DOJ es anschauen würde, oder die, oder, du weißt, IG hat die DOD, also es wurde gefeuert, oder was auch immer, du weißt, wie jemand es anschauen würde, richtig, und es wäre eine echte Beobachtung, sie wären auf Verabschiedung, sie schauen auf den Telefon, richtig,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
So I want to let you... Go first. You tell me. What are you guys monitoring that has you the most alarmed out of all the bullshit that's out there?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020 Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020 Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Untertitelung. BR 2018 Vielen Dank. , , , , , ,, P. P. P. P. P,實實 , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , didnt la a
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
, , , , , , the P P P P P P P P P g實 , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , a a
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Grumpy three years from now, 81-year-old Trump telling an even stupider FCC chairman that he's got to go after Steve Doocy because he said something mean to him that morning. That does not seem crazy at all. That seems very possible.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
No, again, it's just like the courage is contagious element of it. That's what we're really talking about. Make them come after everybody. Weißt du, was ich meine? Das ist das, was so bescheinigend war über das, weißt du, das Folding der Gerätefirmen. Weil es ist so, mach es, versuch es, lass uns sehen. Lass uns sehen. Diese Leute sind weicher, als sie aussehen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Ja, sie haben weniger Macht, als es scheint. Sie sind weniger bereit, sich da draußen zu stellen. Sie gehen nach den einfachsten Tätigkeiten. Schau dir das an. Grünland. Venezuelan Refugees fleeing communism. Female college students that are writing op-eds. The zoo.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
They're not going after Putin. They're not challenging the toughest institutions in this country. And they're doing that because A, they're testing. It's a testing ground to see how far they can go. But B, because they're all weenies. And so they are going to back down from a collective opposition to them. And I do think that's an important reminder to people.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
All right. Let's go to some schadenfreude. Elise Stefanik, my old friend, my old colleague. Main character and why we did it, a travelogue from the Republican road to hell. It's really tough. It's tough for her. I mean, she changed her entire personality for Mr. Trump. She changed everything. She just suckled up to him. She couldn't even say his name.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Hallo und willkommen zu The Bulwark Podcast. Ich bin euer Host Tim Miller. Eine Sache, bevor wir zu unserem All-Caps-Guest kommen. Ich habe von einigen Leuten gehört, dass es ein bisschen ein Verständnis gibt, über ein Konvo, das ich und Love It haben am Ende des Pods gestern. Ich möchte nur klarstellen. Ich habe gesagt, dass es diese Hands-Off-America-Rallye gibt, die am 5. April stattfindet.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
She couldn't even say his name into 2017 or 18. She refused to say his name. She just called him the president.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
She hated him so much. And then she just flipped on a dime, thanks to Alex de Grasse and all the people around her that let her know how she could succeed. She did it all so that she could Achieve a dream. Become United Nations Ambassador. She gets it. She gets everything that she wants. She gets nominated. And then what happens? Well, Trump kind of nominated too many House Republicans.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
And so the majority got very narrow. And then a couple of House Republican women got pregnant. Kat Kamek und Annapolina Luna, so they couldn't show up to vote all the time. And so then their margins got even narrower. And then, in a Pennsylvania State Senate district that Trump won by 15, some Democrat named James Malone ends up winning it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
And then they're like, shoot, we could lose some of these special elections. And then next Tuesday, there's an election for Mike Waltz's seat. I bet Trump wishes he could send Waltz back to the seat. Mike Waltz's seat in Florida 6th. Es war. And so as a result of all these sequence of events, Trump's like, sorry, at least you got to go back to Congress. You can't be the United Nations ambassador.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
All of her staff has taken other jobs. The reports were that she was calling Mar-a-Lago. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, please. No, let me keep it. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, too late. Trump bleeds it. She's back. Tough titties. Sorry, at least. Anyway, what do you think, Amanda?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Yeah, you've seen it from so many other people that Trump brushed aside. You know, Reince and John Kelly and Pence and Matt. You know, you see it all. You see it often that their award comes on the back end. It's tough. It's tough for poor Elise. The other thing is her Instagram feed yesterday was like a Highlight Reel. We're in March Madness right now. It was kind of like a one shining moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Like the end of the tournament is like a highlight reel of all the great things that she did in Congress. She was posting like a retrospective of her career in Congress. That was her Instagram feed yesterday. And then she got the call. Sorry, you're going back.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
It could change the way Republicans act in Congress if they're worried that they start worrying about their own money.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Well, Elon is having an event in Wisconsin this weekend where he hands out What do you think? This is going to turn me into Bernie. I'm literally turning into a Bernie bro. It's like the inverse of, you know, there's the cartoon that makes fun of the far right wing nationalists who are like, if you keep calling me a Nazi, I'm going to have to become a Nazi.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
And they're shaving their head and getting a Nazi tattoo. That's kind of like me. If Elon keeps handing out one million dollar checks to people to go out and vote, it's going to turn me into a Bernie bro. I'm going to be wearing a Field of Burn tee on the pod pretty soon. But Yeah, I mean, that's really gross.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
But again, so it's like, if Elon puts 10 plus million, it's going to be maybe close to 20 by the end.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
In a Wisconsin court race, and then they lose anyway. Then it's like, oh man, maybe Elon's money isn't as scary as we thought.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Yeah, make him spend it everywhere. And then in the Florida Six, just to talk about that, because we talked about Wisconsin a lot yesterday. You know, this race also is going to have House members. There's this big bill coming up. This is why at least has come back to this tiny majority. They want to extend the Trump tax cuts. They want to codify all these gross Doge cuts.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
You know, they want to do like this is this is their big bill. They don't have much wiggle room. And if this House race, even if it's close, even if it's just close, it's going to make some of these guys, like the Mike Lawlers you mentioned, be like, I don't know, I don't want to put myself out there. In this race, there's a lot of things that are kind of working in the Democratic guy's favor.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
This guy, Randy Fine, is a horrible, I mean, he's like a disgusting specimen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
And he's in a fight with DeSantis. So the Republican base is not excited. It's already depressed. The Democratic base is. So I'm not really hopeful for a win, but I think even a close loss is meaningful. And again, if you know people, go and check them out.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Yeah, for sure. So, Josh Weil, if you know somebody over there, spent some time in Daytona Beach, I gotta tell you, not great. Not my favorite city in America, but you could surprise me, Daytonans. Come out and show me what you got. Amanda, do you have any final thoughts for everybody going into the weekend?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Alright, yeah, you want a hot body, you gotta put in the work, you know, Amanda? It's true. It's just how it is. Alright, everybody, you have a good weekend. We'll be back here as good as you can, you know. We'll be back here Monday with Bill Kristol. We'll see you all then. Peace. I hope you brought your walking shoes
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Yeah, I have a couple of thoughts on this. Number one, just as a free speech principle, I would be against what Marco was saying.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Yesterday in his press conference, it's like, look, if you apply for a visa and you put on your visa that you're just here to go to school and you come here and what you're really here to do is organize people and protest against the government, then we have a right to revoke your visa. I think I'd be against that in any context, but it at least is a defensible argument.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
If then the next step from the government is we're going to send a letter to, you know, Ms. Ozturk and say, hey, we've decided to revoke your visa. Secretary of State has jurisdiction on this. You have three months or two weeks or whatever it is to, you know, either reapply or leave the country. Das wäre zumindest so, wie eine liberale Demokratie funktioniert.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Ich wäre gegen das, aber das wäre zumindest innerhalb der Grenzen normaler demokratischer Verhältnisse.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Yes. Having a guy sneak up on a woman on the street with a hood and a mask like he's in fucking 24, you know, and like shake her down and then have her be surrounded by six other people and handcuffed. That is insane authoritarian behavior. Like that is not American behavior. There's no reason for this. This person is not a threat. Like this is like Stasi shit.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
I have an interview for the Gen Z pod, for FY pod. It's out tomorrow. We did our first MAGA interview. I was talking to somebody, a young person that works for Bannon's War Room.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
The thing that was the most frustrating in the conversation was whether you are a traditional, classical, liberal, Thatcher, Reaganite, conservative, or whether you're one of these new tech bro guys, whatever you want to call them, or whether you're Bannon, nationalist world. The one thing that they all...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
claim to agree with was this, like that individuals have free speech rights, that the government, that Jack Boothug shouldn't be like banging down your door because you wrote an op-ed or because you advocated or because you protest. Like they all, you know, pay lip service to that, like across that entire coalition. And it's just fucking silence. Like it's silence.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
I brought that up at the very end after a pod that was pretty emotionally draining. We were talking in the context of this disconnect between the intensity of our alarm and anger and sadness with what was out there in the world. I heard from some folks that seemed to interpret that as dismissiveness about these rallies. I just wanted to be super clear that that is not what I intended.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
It's Reason Magazine is the only people that are even criticizing this. And it is so... desorientierend und bedrohlich, weil wenn sie das Show machen, wo sie die Leute aus den Straßen nehmen und es nur Ruhe gibt, dann werden es keine Checks geben, richtig?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Für mich ist das die am most alarmierendste Sache, dass es kein Signal gab, dass es einen Check geben wird auf diese Leute, wenn sie sogar weiter gehen wollen, als sie haben.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Ich glaube, das ist ein guter Punkt, weil es scheint, glaube ich, ziemlich offensichtlich ist, dass es eine Außengruppe gibt, die dem Staatssekretär eine Liste von Leuten gibt, die schlechte Dinge gemacht haben. Ich verstehe nicht, wie sie jemanden wie Ozturk, diese randomen Op-Ed-Signer, holen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Sie sind. Und ich glaube, mein Punkt ist, dass das die Beta-Version ist. Aber wenn die State Torrent eine Liste von einem Anti-Palästinensischen, Anti-Humansischen, was auch immer, was auch immer, was auch immer, was auch immer, was auch immer, was auch immer, was auch immer, was auch immer, was auch immer, was auch immer,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
I haven't because fuck them, but lots of people are. It's funny you bring this up because I was just looking at, I don't want to out this person, but I was just looking at them on social media this morning. It's a very public type, a person that has been very public in politics in the past and does not like Trump, but works for a consulting firm.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
And I saw a post from them criticizing something that a Democrat was doing. And I was like, I wonder if that person has been posting, because I know that they're not for a lot of this Trump stuff. And you just go down, scroll down the feed, and it's just like, no, it's like sports, an occasional Democratic hit, you know, whatever. Maybe a retweet of a criticism, right, of Trump, maybe.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
The opposite, actually. I want to make sure we'll put a link to the list of the gatherings in the show notes. If you feel called to go, I encourage you to do so. I hope to see a lot of people out on April 5th. And I think that my point yesterday is, you know, this is kind of an incubator. This thing is going to take time. We're not seeing the initial emotional reaction that we saw in 2017.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Whether that person would admit it or not, like... They're self-censoring. People are self-censoring. And now this gets us into the law firm conversation and the corporations and Columbia University, which I talked about yesterday. People are self-censoring because they are either scared or don't want to deal with the BS. And that is all a form of soft authoritarianism.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Nobody was doing that under Biden. Nobody's like, I'm not going to send a mean tweet about Biden because I'm worried that they're going to come after me, that my business will be harmed, that somebody won't get a contract. Nobody was worried about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Well, here's the latest. Let's go to the latest executive order from last night. Trump is targeting the Smithsonian and the zoo. For programs that advance divisive narratives and improper ideology.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
I assume this is like they had Pride Night at the National Zoo or something and they've got to cancel that now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Yeah, well, sure, maybe we honored the gay penguins, you know, from Antango Makes Three. That is a crazy, like, just phrase. Improper ideology. Like, it's silly and it's laughable, but it's like, look, the president is saying to a museum, I will punish you if you advance an improper ideology.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Ja, hier ist ein Beispiel, das sie in der Exekutiven Ordnung gestellt haben. Zum Beispiel, das Smithsonian-Amerikanische Kunstmuseum bezieht sich auf die Form der Macht, Geschichten von Rasse und amerikanischer Skulptur, ein Exhibit, das zeigt, dass Gesellschaften, insbesondere die Vereinigten Staaten, Rasse genutzt haben, um Systeme von Macht, Privilegien und Entschädigungen zu erstellen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
Die Skulpturen, also, was ist die Angst über das?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1009: Amanda Carpenter: Daddy? No, Manny Trump
I'm sure you guys, since you have so many lawyers over there, are pretty deep on what's happening with the law firms. And it seems like there's more Mehr kommt. Gestern gab es einen Bericht von Skadden Arps, einem anderen großen DC-Law-Firmen, in Negotierungen, oder ich weiß nicht, was man die Worte nennen würde, die mit der White House in einer Verhandlungsverhandlung beteiligt sind.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
I think he might have broken his brain with the social media company he bought, but yeah, sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
It's your sense, though. I mean, we don't have a crystal ball. Things don't look good economically.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Well, David- We are going to add some to the economy, though. We like to be fair-minded here at the Bulldog Podcast. They do have a plan for bringing some people in. It's called the new gold card. It's going to solve the debt and bring new fresh blood into the economy. I want to listen to Donald Trump talking about this plan the other day.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
We're going to sell 10 million gold cards at 5 million a pop. What do you think about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
America first. America first. It's also just like as a practical point, I'm with you, right? Giving visas to people that are going to invest is something Canada has to affect seems sensible to me. This is according to a study from 2023. There are only 8.4 million people globally worth 5 million or more, right? So unless the plan is for Saudi Arabia,
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
or Putin, or somebody to buy a bunch of these, or some billionaire, maybe a Chinese crypto billionaire, we'll get to that next, to just pay Trump off personally, this is not a sensible plan.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
We don't have $10 million, unfortunately. We don't have $10 million billionaires to pay off the whole debt, but we could.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Speaking of those scams, I do want to revisit the crypto story because I've mentioned this yesterday. We have an update. The judge did grant the SEC's request for a stay in the case of Justin Sun. Justin Sun has given reportedly over $50 million, invested over $50 million in the various Trump bitcoins.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
It's a Chinese bitcoin magnate just essentially paying Trump directly and getting the government off his back for his alleged frauds.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Yeah. And actually, there was a statement also just yesterday on this point from the SEC where they said that these meme coins are essentially a collectible. They see them as trading cards, essentially, baseball trading cards. And so in the same way that a currency is regulated more lightly, the baseball card market is regulated more lightly. And
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
That's great news for meme coin scammers like the president of the United States, the secretary of commerce and many other people in their orbit.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
It is disappointing just because he could have just done a mea culpa. That really was the most disappointing thing about Millais, that he got so defensive of it and started attacking people for attacking him. It was such an obvious fraud. Just say I got duped. But I guess these guys, it's part of the machismo side of this. You can't say that you got duped.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Patience. Be respectable. The other scam they have going is the strategic Bitcoin reserve. Saw a post that you had about that. I wanted to hear your take on that strategic Bitcoin reserve plan.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
The biggest pool of fools is, is the government run by a fool, you know?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
To the autocracy and idiocracy and caucus-tocracy altogether. You wrote this, Trump tried a seizure of power in 21. It didn't work because he relied only on a violent mob. Military and FBI stayed loyal to the Constitution. This time, with the approval of the Republican Senate, Trump has installed anti-constitutional putschists at the FBI, DOD, and Pentagon.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Since then, he's added the Joint Chiefs onto that list, since you wrote that, I think. What is your alarm level when it comes to this?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
That's a fair point. And I think I've been thinking about this on the eggs thing, because you do see pundits like liberal pundits talking about it a lot or anti-Trump pundits more than politicians. So you see it some from politicians. I think Ruben Gallego mentioned it on the pod on Wednesday. One thing I notice is the other side also has the benefit is of they're so shameless about
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
You certainly wouldn't want him to be a school teacher. You know, like you wouldn't want him to manage your store if you had many stores and you couldn't oversee him day to day because you wouldn't know if he'd start screaming at a customer. If he'd smack a kid. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Yeah, among the politically malleable people, we have a couple stories from Cash on what he has in mind. He wants to live part-time in Las Vegas, apparently, according to the Wall Street Journal. He lives in a home there with a timeshare scammer, rich guy. Like I said, we don't know if he lives with him, but he lives in that man's home, according to the Nevada Independent.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And he has a plan for hiring MMA fighters into the FBI.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
No. No, he shouldn't. But I don't. That might end up being the least of our problems. Then we have also Raisin Cain, the new chairman of the Joint Chiefs. The way Trump tells the story, Cain is a three-star general. Told him in 2018, I guess when he was still a general, that he loved Trump. He would kill for him. And slapped on a MAGA hat on his head.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
There's kind of this cute Politico story as if it's 1998 where they're writing about how this might be a problem for him because that is against the rules and regulations of the military. And maybe Tom Cotton or somebody will say something about this. I find that hard to imagine, but that's a little alarming.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
In the argumentation, Trump is so shameless that it's almost easy for him to say, this is Sleepy Joe's fault. He's asleep at the switch. It's Joe Biden's fault. And sometimes even when the Democrats, I notice, do try to pin this on Trump, it's like in an ironic way where I almost feel like they're criticizing the voters, not Trump themselves. The voters were too dumb. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
That doesn't seem likely from somebody that says that they would love, they love to Trump and kill for him, but who knows? I would love to be surprised. Lastly, I wanted to talk about Ukraine. So Trump and Zelensky are meeting today, right about now as we're taping. So by the time this is out, the meeting will already have happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
This is reportedly about inking the deal on the rare earth minerals. So I'm wondering what you're thinking about the state of play.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
I'm just searching for a positive here, one green shoot. And so feel free to take that, take that away from me. Is there anything to the idea that Trump is kind of tricking himself into having to do more for Ukraine than he otherwise would because he wants to feel like he's getting this good deal? I got this deal. I'm getting the rare earth. We're going to invest there.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
to know that the egg prices, you know, he wasn't going to fix. And so sometimes I feel like the egg prices commentary is an attack on the voters. And if you're really going to play their game, it's got to be what you're saying, which is the shameless attack on Trump and the politicians.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Some of my cronies are going to make money and then they're going to give it back to me buying my coin or whatever. And so we'll have to defend them at some level to make sure we can get our rare earth.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
How are the folks in Austria thinking about what's happening here stateside? Well, I have to confess, I was mostly talking about ski snow quality.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Last thing, you wrote a cautionary tale for the Trump appointees was related to these negotiations and how Marco Rubio and Mike Waltz might learn something from the past. I'd love for you to just share a little bit of that cautionary tale with people.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Yeah. I mean, he's already learned this lesson kind of in the micro, where the role of Henry Kissinger was played by the 23-year-old Doge guy, big balls, where Marco said, as Secretary of State, we're going to protect the good parts of USAID, PEPFAR, a couple of other things. And then when Doge took over the payment systems, the little 23-year-olds were like, actually, no, we're not
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
We're not going to pay for PEPFAR. We're going to override the Secretary of State on this.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Yes, exactly. And that, which takes us to George Costanza, which is, which is, that was his advice as well, right? It's like, it's only a lie if you believe it. What was the exact line?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Well. I guess when you only care about oneself, I think is the answer to it. And that's the situation with Trump. Gerson, I was recently reminded of one of his, he had many good turns of phrase, but one recently, when the king is a liar, truth becomes treason. Very good. Michael Gerson. He is missed. David Frum, thank you for the time as always. And we'll be talking to you again soon. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
All right, everybody else. We will be back Monday for a Lundy Graw edition of the Bulwark podcast. We'll see all of that. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
It's not a lie. It's not a lie if you believe it. It's not a lie if you believe it. Yeah, there it is.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
I mean, you know, we're splitting hairs here at this point, but in the Epstein case, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Well, that sounds lovely. Well, on the topic of Trumpocalypse, I was perusing your social media feeds, and I saw this nice summation of where things stand. Egg shortages, fatal measles outbreaks, airplane crashes, crypto scams, tariffs, betrayal of allies, pardons and special favors for insurrectionists, crooked mayors, and online pimps. The American people have voted for change.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Yeah, I know you're writing about this for The Atlantic, which people should check out. But the layers of hypocrisy even go deeper than that and shamelessness, right? I mean, they were also literal groomers. This was the big attack on gays from the MAGAs over the last few years. Why they don't say gay in schools and all that was that
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
You know, there are the gays against groomers, which I guess Richard Grinnell considered himself among, you know, as a MAGA that would show up to these events. And now it's in this case, we have two men that were in the most literal sense grooming women that they're also trafficking.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And then for people who didn't follow this, using them in pornography, I think the seven women that are at the center of the Romanian case, they put in a house in Bucharest, they turned into a porn den, and they, you know, against their will, showed, you know, allegedly, showed pornographic videos of them.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And like that is, you know, it is on the nose of what they, you know, had accused the left of. As you say, on the same day that they released the Epstein files. Nobody cares about hypocrisy, though. I do wonder, is there... Like to me, the more interesting thing is The evangelical side of the party, like the Christian, the social conservative side of the party, there's nothing.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
How can Mike Johnson, who monitors his own son's porn use, also live coherently in a party that celebrates these two men?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
And maybe the answer to this is there isn't any, but I'm going to extend your remarks and use the Tate brothers as an example. We know that the evangelical leaders and the political types in the Republican Party have completely sold their soul to Trump and don't actually care about these issues anymore.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
I guess we'll get to all of those topics. Which one?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Is there not eight people in the church on Sunday, though, at a conservative church, megachurch in Georgia? that do care about this, right? That you could peel off by speaking to them about this if they learned about it, if it wasn't for the fact that their information silos didn't inform them about this. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Maybe the answer is no, but to your point about them, the Republicans doing regular politics, that was Trump's case with black voters. Trump didn't think he was going to win black voters by 50%. It was like, can I get the highest Republican number by pandering to them and appealing to them? I think the same principle applies there.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
The rules should not be that. I don't know if it can't be. I think it may be in certain cases. I want to go back to the economy tumbling the eggs because you're focusing on this on the messaging side of this. And message matters. It's not everything. Life experience, people experiencing the economy in their own ways matters probably actually more. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
I played this yesterday, but I want to play it again because I think that for various reasons that you laid out on eggs, I don't think anybody is particularly incentivized to say things might get very bad with the economy right now. The Democrats don't want to seem like they're rooting for that. The media doesn't want to predict it and be wrong.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
But here's Steve Cohen, who's a conservative hedge fund guy, donated to Trump in the past. So not somebody with TDS talking about the economy as it stands right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. He's back. He's a staff writer at The Atlantic, author of 10 books, most recently, Trumpocalypse. It's David Frum. What's happening, Frum?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Sticking inflation and slowing growth.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
Speaking about what, maybe not the stupidest people in America, but the most gullible, I'm obsessed with this because it just seems so obvious to me. I've not gotten very wealthy. I assume people that got very wealthy did so because they are smart about risk-reward calculations and such. But anytime I talked to a rich person or a finance person in the lead-up to the election, I was like, why –
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
are so many people at the CEO level on Wall Street, either neutral, sitting this race out, or even leaning Trump, or actively for Trump in this case, when the risk seems so obvious to me. Here we are. We're one month in. Semaphore article is quoting some CEOs. It's a difficult time to invest. Everybody's paralyzed. I'm sorry. I can't be particularly positive. The chaos that is reigning right now
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Both Pro-Jesus and Pro-Sex Trafficking
is causing everyone to sit on their hands. Headline, America's business leaders are turning on Trump fast. What did these fucking people think that they were going to get?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Feels like you clapped louder for Sarah. That's okay. I love being at the Howler Theater. I had some great jazz brunches here back in the day when I lived around the corner. This is an awesome venue. Thank you for hosting us. I also love Libertarians, by the way. Libertarians are so cute. You know, talking about the power of the state and all the terms. And I just, I really do.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I enjoy libertarians and I kind of, I was excited about doing this debate because I like to have fun. And when I heard, when Peter told me about the premise, I was like, this is so silly and frivolous and libertarian. Like, I don't know, I can have a couple of drinks up here and we can talk about this. Because the reality is that grownups in politics have to make a choice about things.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Politics is not about our self-actualization. It's not about deciding to feel good about oneself. It is about the process by which we organize our society. We organize our society to best ensure that our fellow citizens are able to live and prosper and achieve their dreams and be free. And that's what we have to do.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
We get together and we create these systems and these systems are imperfect and they're kind of broken and often they suck. They suck in Chicago and San Francisco, as you point out. I live in Louisiana. Let me tell you, not knocking it out of the park with the government down there. Potholes, not great, all right? So the systems suck. You end up with choices that aren't great.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
But if you want to have a say in the process,
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
you have to pick a side it doesn't mean you have to be a tribalist it doesn't mean you have to apologize unapologetically be on one side i mean last year i voted for a republican that was running for governor of louisiana that was obviously gonna lose uh because he was running against a worse republican uh but i chose a side in that in that race uh in the presidential election we obviously chose a side and i thought that
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
As Sarah pointed out, one of the options was very clearly unacceptable. But in local elections, for your city council, sometimes you're like, I don't know. I can't tell the difference between these two sides. And maybe it's not worth it to get involved. But most of the time, you make a choice that most aligns with your values.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And you think best will achieve positive results for your fellow citizens. That is the whole point of politics. That is what we are doing here. And I find it kind of weird. This is the only area of life where you face two choices. They're imperfect. And you decide that the high-minded thing is to say, I'm going to fuck it. I'm going to do nothing. I'm not going to decide.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I mean, I think about, for example... Over Thanksgiving, I've got to go to rural West Virginia to see my in-laws. Not great. The in-laws are great. Rural West Virginia, not great. Also, the governing. They're not knocking it out of the park either.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
But we can either drive 11 hours or we can fly and pay $1,000 and then drive two hours over the hills that make me nauseous where there's no cell phone service. Neither option's great. It's kind of like Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. It's not going to be like Jeff Landry and Sean Wilson. Neither option is great. But I've got to decide.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I could say no and not go see people for Thanksgiving, not involve myself in society, and that's fine. But guess what? Thanksgiving comes up the next November. I've got to decide again. If you are living in a neighborhood with a bad school district and you have children, you can say, well, I can pay money to send them to private school. Maybe I can afford that. I can make that choice.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Or I can send them to the public school. That's kind of shitty. Those aren't great choices. A lot of people, that's a challenging choice. You can opt out and say, I guess I'm going to homeschool. But the reality is you have to make a choice for your family. You have to make a choice that's better for your kids and your grandkids. And that's what politics is.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
At the end of the day, you have to make a choice for what's going to be better for you and the people around you. And it doesn't mean you have to put on a team jersey and defend everything that your choice does. But it does mean that you got to decide. I flew. We landed in Roanoke. It was really unpleasant.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Can I rebut that just briefly? I just think as a broader point, I don't think that it turns you into a maroon to have to decide between options and to identify what the worst thing would be for values that you care about, whether it be freedom or something else. Like, again, I gladly chose Kamala Harris. When Joe Biden was going to be the nominee this time, I was going to happily choose Joe Biden.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Sometimes you have to pick one that is obviously better, that is obviously preferable. I think Joe Biden was very selfish to decide to run again. I think he has made some mistakes I really disagree with. And yet it was pretty easy. And I criticized him publicly. I wasn't like, oh, I love everything about him. We said this publicly all the time.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Well, how do you know he's not an extinction-level threat? I would say this. If we flew back, if we got a little DeLorean and flew back to 2014 and we all came here before Shaw had totally gentrified and we met together at a bar... And I said, Nick, I have this photo of you. I have this photo for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And it was a photo of people, of Trump flags over the Capitol building, smoke above over the Capitol building, cops being just like this attacked by people waving American flags, the blue line or Confederate flags. It showed you a series of photos. And I was like, this will happen in five years from now. if we elect Donald Trump, you would have looked at me like I was an insane person.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
You would have looked at me and been like, no way. And then I'll say, get this. It'll happen, and then he'll run again, and you won't pick a side. You would have been like, Tim, no way. No way that could possibly happen.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I'm not trying to convince him. I'm just trying to tell you what happened, man. I'm just trying to tell you what happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I understand. Because you invited the bulwark. Yes, because we invited the bulwark. Could have invited somebody else. Could have invited Mother Jones. Talked about climate change or something.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Yeah, I guess. And I would just say it is axiomatically true that you do not have to pick a side. So maybe I've conceded the debate already to the other side. So, yes, like random people don't have to pick a side. But what do you do now?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
It's like, I voted for my asset dealer.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I am voting for Cornel West.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Sometimes the times call for shrieking. Sometimes the times call for shrieking. I don't know why shrieking is necessarily a pejorative. I think that there are a lot of very dangerous things that are happening. I feel like I can both shriek and keep my wits about me at the same time. And I think there are some very, very real and serious threats that face us over the next four years.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And I think that we should speak about them clearly.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Okay, I would have thought the majority or the plurality of people. That was a key part of the effort then.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
The point is that there's sometimes things that are worse than other things, and you can observe them directly and decide what and do threats assessments.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Here's something that I would do now in front of this audience. I'd say, look, we have a threat in front of us. And that is Kash Patel running the FBI. I think it's probably the most dangerous pick that is out there. He's certainly not up to the task. He's not up to the task, but it's also not up to the task.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
He was a key member of the attempt to overturn the election. He's demonstrated that he wants to act with vengeance against Donald Trump's foes. He said so in the book that goes against fundamentally against people's freedoms. And look, there are libertarians in the Senate right now. Rand Paul. People should be saying, you should, you have to choose. You have to pick a side.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Do you think that Kash Patel should be the FBI director of this country or not? I would think that a magazine that would supposedly, I would assume would have some influence over the one libertarian senator. Might want to make some suggestions. Do you think that we want to pick a side here? That person is... So I think that there are proactive things you can do.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
tim rep in colorado sarah longwell do you have a prop oh i see where this is going sarah's just bringing heat tonight i don't know if you guys recognize these
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Tim Miller, you have a bag. I do have a bag.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
You're about to find out. Who's hungry? Who's the hungriest person out here? All right. Come on up here, sir. Come on up here, sir. Come join us. Come join us up here on stage. Can we get him up? Let's let him stand right there, actually. That's much easier. Here you go. I would like you to hold this. He's got a Sarah's Always Right sticker. I should have picked one of the reason people.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Here we go. I've got two items for you here. I've got this chicken Vienna sausage can. It expired in 2022. I bought it at the corner store, and it's got chicken broth in it. I've also got these peanut butter crackers. Not great. Kind of generic peanut butter crackers. I also have some really yummy cookies over here, and they might be pot cookies. We'll see. So you have an option here.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
We're going to vote. You can choose between the crackers or the chicken Vienna sausage that expired, or could I interest you in the pot cookies? but the crowd gets to decide which one of these you have to eat. Ooh, that could be fun. That could be fun. That's kind of interesting, right? It's like, I don't have to choose. I get to have a cookie. But then everybody else gets to decide what I want.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Which one, what would you like to go with, sir? I'd like to choose. Okay, what would you like to choose? The crackers. Congratulations. The good news is... Good news is I'd like to give Peter Suderman the Vienna sausage.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I'll answer very briefly. I would not have changed my position. My loathing and contempt for the selfishness of the current president of the United States, frankly, has only cost us subscribers to the bull market. It usually gets people throwing tomatoes at me.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
But he still would have been vastly preferable to Donald Trump for all the reasons that Sarah Longwell laid out, and he had a capable vice president.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
How would that work? Can I have a quick follow-up? How would you enthusiastically support and write about somebody that you find really great?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
If it were Javier Millay versus Bernie, you would not choose a side in that.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
All right. Stroking out. I'm so annoyed that I haven't seen Michael Steele when I called a person up here for a prop. I wanted to get you some of that Vienna sausage.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
We have another question. I would have traded Sarah for her, had I known that was an option.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Not whether... The civil rights movement was nonpartisan? Yeah. I mean, not in these states. That would have been news to MLK and George Wallace that they weren't picking the sides, that there weren't sides on that. Like, yeah, sure, back then...
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
parties back then the parties were not assorted the way the parties are now so there were people with there were pro-civil rights people and anti-civil rights people on both parties but that doesn't mean that there weren't obvious sides between you know north between northern democrats and like Well, they weren't partisan because we were in different partisan times, but people chose a side.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
It wasn't like Martin Luther King was like, oh, I'm so neutral on this one.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
But if you were... But there were pro-civil rights candidates and anti-civil rights running for office. They might have been in different parties in different states, but there were people who were for civil rights and they were running against people who were against civil rights. So Martin Luther King had a side in those races.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Yeah, I've got bad news for you. Life sucks and is filled with bad choices. And like, here's the thing, as a former moderate Republican who's now like an independent quasi Democrat, whatever you want to call me, like, I don't, I don't foresee any future where there's going to be a candidate that's like, man, I am down the line with Tim. I want permanent daylight savings time. I'm a Yimby.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I really like gay stuff. I want to cut red tape. Like I, you know, I, they believe that America has a great role in the world. Like, like that candidate's not walking through the door. All right. Like Jared Polis is pretty good out there, governor of Colorado. But like, besides that,
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
candidates not walking through the door and so you know you can still assess uh what is again going back to my opening statement like which candidate is going to do the best to allow people to live a life of purpose of purpose and meaning like that's my north star you can and sometimes you can look at them and say i don't i don't think that there will be a big difference
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
uh but most of the time you'll be able to and you can choose that side and then you can still advocate for yimby housing or whatever else that you do and you can agitate the person you voted for they're probably more likely to listen to you if you if you called them up you're like hey i'm a supporter you got to focus you know one of the things is don't think about politics uh and i guess i could stop right there but to take it a step further don't think about politics as oh the president gets elected and then they're caesar and everything you know whatever they want
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I'm not high right now. Could you repeat that? Those cookies are still there.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I mean, I would argue that they've, again, that they've made a choice. In this theory, they're choosing to engage, but they're choosing to say, I reject both. Yeah, I mean, I guess I would say that technically that's a choice within the rubric of this conversation.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
We also did see this, actually. I'm sorry, we saw this with Undeclared. It took me a second to get the question in my mind. We just saw this. They chose a side. Like, there were a bunch of people in the Democratic Party that went out and said, no, I'm not choosing Joe Biden. And that was a choice.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
You were hoping Kamala Harris was going to win? Do you think your followers do you think like you have a lot of social media? Absolutely.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Thank you guys so much for having me. Are you going to show us what's in the bag? No, it's just cookies. I've been a little bit of a smartass tonight because I do think some of this is a little silly, so I'm going to be earnest for a second first. And the thing is, like, I do like politics. Nick is pretty... I wish I was as cool as Nick, and I kind of...
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
affect not caring about politics sometimes in order to offer that cool. But I'm a Model UN dork at heart. I care about politics. I care about government. That's why I do this. That's why I wake up every morning and talk about it every day. That's why I worked on campaigns and volunteered on campaigns. So I text my friends about it even when I'm not working.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And I just think that it's important that we all do the best we can to try to make things better. And we're not all going to agree on what that looks like. I certainly don't agree, I think, with a lot of even my own podcast listeners about what the best way for government to look would be. But I think that it's really important that we try to engage in civic discourse.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
We try to make our society a little bit better. We try to protect people's freedoms. We try to have a positive influence on the world. And I think by having an affected distance from that, you remove the ability to make a difference. You're not going to make a difference every time.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Sometimes people are going to vote for people you didn't like and you could argue or act or work or try and people could reject you. But luckily, at least for now in this country, you get another opportunity to do it again and again. And I think that right now we're facing a very, very serious time. And I hope that the threats are not as serious as I assess them to be, but I worry they are.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And I think that this is not a moment to not pick a side. It is a moment to pick a side. And frankly, I think it's absolutely critical that people pick a side and get involved. And I thank you all for having me today.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Just by choosing to vote, haven't we already won? Yeah. Think about it that way. I don't know. Bring the guy up with the... Closing arguments are done. With the blunt.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Look at all the double haters.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I'm gonna storm the Capitol if you guys pick Nick. I'm gonna let you know that.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Going to be at four seasons total landscaping, demanding a recount. The chicken sausage is looking better.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And we win getting rid of him. What kind of skills does he have?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
All right. Do people at Reason have lice? I don't know. I haven't hung out with the libertarians in a while. Am I concerned about the hair?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
His hair was on fire over Paul Weiss' law firm's capitulation to Donald Trump. Trump extorted them. It's a complicated story, but essentially an executive order that was going to target the firm because of their work on some of the investigations against Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Sie wollen die Aufmerksamkeit nicht mehr.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
I was just talking to my husband about this. We have a friend, I guess I won't say it, he's in the bowels of one of these institutions solving problems like this. And he's like, it's sort of a USAID adjacent thing. I'm like, is he okay? And it's like, well, yeah, for now. But it's like, they haven't figured it out yet. They haven't figured out all of the ways the different agencies interconnect.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
And so, TBD. It's really interesting.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
I had somebody tell me that Elon did not know that there were two different houses of Congress in the middle of the campaign. Somebody had to educate him about the fact that Senate and the House are two separate bodies.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
The head of Paul Weiss went to the White House, groveled, cut some deal where they're going to do 40 million in pro bono services for Trump. It's absolutely insane. George Conway knows all the players. So we taped an emergency episode of George Conway explains it all together. So go check that out on that podcast feed or also on YouTube. So those are the news stories.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
This is what the people want.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Or who have been promoted recently.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Yeah, it's the first year of service, or it's like you worked at some sub-agency and got promoted and took the job at a different sub-agency. You become probationary again, if you've changed. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
This is literally what I was trying to go to next. Because you've abandoned New Orleans. You live in the Bay now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
My whole family is there. My point is, you know some of these people just because they're your neighbors in social circles. You wrote the SBF book, which I want to get to next. You know the types of people that are around Elon and around Doge at some level. What do you think is motivating it?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
We got a good one coming for you next. It is Michael Lewis of Moneyball fame and Sarah Vowell. They have a new book out about who is government, which is very relevant right now, given everything that's happening with Doge. So stick around for that. Hello and welcome to the Bullwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Ich denke, besonders die AI und Krypto-Folk sind besonders betroffen mit Regulierung.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
That's not saving any money. It's such a good way of losing money.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Could not be more delighted to welcome today the pride of Newman High School right around the corner from me. His many books include The Big Short Moneyball and The Blind Side. He's the editor of a new collection of essays, Who is Government? The Untold Story of Public Service, which came out this week. We'll have one of those essayists, Sarah Vowell, join us in Segment 2.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
I think that's insightful because to me that is where the alignment between Trump and the tech guys are, is that Trump wants to destroy all the trust so that there's only faith in him, right? That like he is the authoritarian, the Kim Jong-un or whatever. You only trust the leader.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Die Techniker, ich weiß nicht, ob du tief in den Curtis Yarvin Techno-Authoritären-Stuff eingestiegen bist, aber sie wollen alle Dinge zerstören, die Leute vertrauen, damit sie alles kontrollieren. So, dass dieses kleine Quadrat von Technik-Geniusen und Leuten, die tief in AI und diese andere Art von Innovation sind, sie kontrollieren. Und zumindest für eine Weile sind ihre Interessen verbunden.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Right? Because, you know, as long as there's not a fight between Trump and Elon, their interest in tearing down the other institutions that people trust so that they can have control is in alignment. How does that sit with you?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Ich spreche spezifisch über den Strain von Teal und Dreeson. Das ist richtig.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
If you like fart jokes. Yeah, he thinks of himself as like... My seven-year-old did like the Tesla farting. They got a chuckle out of the fact that you can make the Tesla do a whoopee.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
But first, it's Michael Lewis. What's up, Michael?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Well, there you go. Proud to do it. Walter's never interviewed you?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Yeah, I think he'd have trouble assimilating that fact into his personal narrative.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Hey guys, just a couple of programming notes. There are two news stories that me and my colleagues have our hair on fire about and I did not get to them on this podcast. I want to direct you to where you can find our Scorch Not Takes. For me, it is the continued revelations around the men that we have sent to this world. barbarische El Salvador-Prisonkampfeuer.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
All right. Well, I could hit your high school with a three wood from here. So we're right in the hood. I've got another... Ich möchte zuerst auf dich wagen, bevor wir in den Buch kommen. Als ich geschrieben habe, warum wir das gemacht haben, das war meine Reflexion darauf, wie die Republikanische Partei dort ist, hat der Redakteur mich gefragt, welches Buch ich nachmodellieren wollte.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Well, it's only the federal government. We've only got three and a half more years of it, so no worries there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
It's interesting. I stole this from Carville, I think, but all the good about New Orleans outshines all the bad, like makes up for all the bad, because the good is so good. And so, you know, I mean, look, it's got problems. I had to trade in my Mein Volvo, mein Kalifornien-Volvo für einen Jeep, weil man auf den Straßen nicht fahren kann. Die Straßen sind wie ein drittes Weltland.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Sie versuchen, Claiborne-Avenue zu lösen, um sich bereit zu machen für die Superbowl. Und tragisch, sie versuchen, Bourbonstraße zu lösen, um sich bereit zu machen für die Superbowl. Sie haben also diese riesigen... Und sie haben neither of them done. Es ist noch nicht fertig. Die Superbowl kommt vorbei. Das ist schwierig. Aber man, ich weiß nicht. Die Leute hier sind so wundervoll.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
And the folks like us who've chosen to come here are interesting. Nobody's moved here because Boeing sent them here. You know what I mean? They've all moved here because there's something they love about the art or music or food or culture or they had a friend or a connection. So that's great. I don't know, that kind of ties me back to you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
I wonder, you've been so successful in drawing out these characters, drawing out people that... Other folks might not have heard of. And you have to feel like there's some connection to growing up here, right? It's just people are so friendly. And it is so easy to get to know people here. Maybe because they're drinking more. I don't know why. But do you feel that way?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
That maybe you would have been less good at what you did if you grew up in Topeka?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Ich gab ihm zwei Bücher. Einer davon war «Losers». Your 1996 campaign book that is maybe the least acclaimed of all your works. But I loved it because you did not get boxed in by the conventions of political reporting and treated the characters as three-dimensional people. And it's just delightful. So people are looking for a political book that is from a time when the stakes were much lower.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020 Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020 Untertitelung. BR 2018
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Losers is a good one. But anyway, what are your reflections on that book?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Untertitelung. BR 2018
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
And there are also just these elements now that are online that people never could have gotten before. There are elements in the archives that are pretty wondrous. You kind of end the story talking about the glass plate negatives, these early pictures from the Civil War. Talk about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Sicherheitsnummern? Ja. Das ist einer der Probleme, wenn du es ausrutschst, nur weil es die Wimpe des Kindes ist.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
You have a secret great aunt?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
We've got to close with the one political element to this that's related because it's very relevant.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Well, there are a lot. But the one acutely political story that is related to your story, which is Colleen Shogan, which is that Trump fired the archivist, the head archivist, Pamela's boss.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Which is his right. But the thing that is relevant here is that Shogun is the type of person that is another type of person you guys could have profiled. And she took her job so seriously that in kind of a really tough situation as Biden was going out, Biden was kind of decreed that the Equal Rights Amendment was officially part of the Constitution.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
And whatever your feelings are about the Equal Rights Amendment, I assume most listeners and both of us are supportive of it. But like... He did it in a way that didn't follow the letter of the law. And so, but Shogun was getting pressured to, you know, whatever, put it in the official archive and she wouldn't. So she kind of stands up to Biden, you know, because she takes her job so seriously.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Trump comes in, fires her anyway, because he's pissed about the, that it was the NARA, the archives that kind of kicked off the classified documents that he's keeping in his bathroom at Mar-a-Lago, like that whole case. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Und das ist nur ein weiteres Beispiel, wie beide diese Charaktere, Colleen und Pamela, Leute, die da sind, sie nehmen ihre Arbeit ernsthaft, sie machen es juristisch und sie werden einfach, du weißt, behandelt wie Garbage von den kommenden Regierungen.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
I need to close something completely unrelated to this based on your expertise for the Incredibles. Okay. What superpower do we actually want? You know, if you got to have one. Which one would you actually want?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Es ist viel MRNA-Arbeit vorhanden.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Das ist gut. Möchten wir alle erfolgreich sein, ohne zu versuchen, wie Michael Lewis. Das ist ein guter Ort, um zu enden. Danke, Sarah. Es ist so schön, dich zu treffen. Ich freue mich, dass du den Podcast machst. Alle anderen, wir sind wieder hier. Warte, ich bin in Arizona. I see the clouds that move across the sky. I see the wind that moves the clouds away.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
It moves the clouds over by the buildings.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Also mit dem Vorteil von 30 Jahren der Wahrnehmung und Trump, ich glaube 20 Jahre, aber zwischen 1996 und 2016, wie die frischen rechten Kandidaten ernsthaft behandeln, wie sie sie ernsthaft behandeln, ich meine, sie teuschen sie auch, aber wie sie sie ernsthaft behandeln und was sie gesagt haben und all das, hat tatsächlich Relevanz.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Ich meine, viele dieser Nischetyp Charaktere sind die Leute, die nicht die echten Leute sind, sondern die Typen der Leute, die im Zentrum unserer Regierung sind.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Hell no. No, that's right. All right. Well, to that point about government, that's this sort of who is government, what does government do well, is, I guess, the central thesis to the book. Pretty relevant now, given what has happened with Elon. So I'm wondering if you could share with the audience some of the people you feature broadly.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Und die Tatsache, dass, laut ihren Anwälten, zumindest ein paar von ihnen tatsächlich nichts illegal gemacht haben, hier legal unter dem venezuelischen temporären Schutzstatus waren und verletzt wurden, basierend auf einer Missverständlichkeit ihrer Tattoos oder einer Regierung, die nicht kümmert oder intensiv schuldig ist. Wir werden die Wahrnehmung herausfinden.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
And I guess I was wondering, have any of them got the axe yet? Have any of the people in the book?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Du hättest gedacht, dass die Kohle-Kompanien daran gearbeitet hätten.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Aber es ist einfach so krass und so unamerikanisch. Ich habe einen 11-Minuten-Rant über das gemacht, als mein Blut letzte Nacht heiß war. Ihr könnt das entweder auf unserem YouTube-Feed oder jetzt, wir verändern das in einen Podcast. Sucht für Bulwark Takes.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
So what is it? What would be the downside of the CPI, of us putting Corey Lewandowski in charge of the CPI and then just making it whatever Trump thinks is the best?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
improve it and the next step would be oh you don't get to release it out of the department of labor statistics we're going to release it out of the white house well you understand so they complain about the job because you know job numbers come out and then they get adjusted right and so you you know after as you get more information coming in you already heard them during the biden years saying that these guys are cooking the books because a couple times it got adjusted down from what it initially had been said and so you use that as a pretext to just say we don't trust these guys are political actors what we'll we'll decide ourselves
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
in your podcast feed, subscribe to that feed, and then you can see it's under the headline Breaking the New News about the El Salvador Deportations.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Und die, die du auch gemacht hast, die mir wirklich aufgefallen ist, war der Epidemiologen bei der FDA, weil sie diese Krankheiten, die so rar sind, beurteilen, dass es keinen Profit gibt, um sie zu behandeln. Pharma wird nicht für diese Arten von Dingen verwendet. Ich habe einen Freund mit einem Kind, der diese Art von Krankheit hat.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
Er ist einfach so, dass es wirklich kein Geld für das gibt, weil er eine wirklich debilitierende Krankheit hat. Es ist schrecklich. Let me use that story. It's about Heather Stone, who's currently, but who knows for how long, at the Food and Drug Administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1005: Michael Lewis: Government Workers Aren't the Corrupt Ones
So, in addition to that, Adrian Carrasquillo in his newsletter for us, Huddled Masses, writes about this tattoo issue and gives you some historical examples of how the government has screwed this up before, misunderstanding the tattoos of the people that they're detaining. So please go read that as well. One other thing, George Conway,
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
All right. Well, I did your solid and I didn't start Googling the Houston congressional districts or, you know, look at John Cornyn. But I am just saying while we're talking about people running for something, there might be somebody who might want to think about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Let's talk about the new director of the FBI, Kash Patel. Dude, listen. I don't even have a fucking question. What do you want to say?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
It's Dave McCormick for me. I ranted about this yesterday, but I'm still boiling. He's not up for six years. Yeah, I mean, come on. All these guys... Dave McCormick was the safe example for all the people that we know. Everybody in the donor class. Even W himself did an event for him. Doesn't do politics. The big bank type.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
All of the moderate or traditional Republicans or non-political centrist type people. Dave McCormick was like, oh, well, this guy ran an international hedge fund. He's a veteran. You can trust him. What is the fucking difference between Dave McCormick and the fucking porn pizza man from North Carolina in the Senate?
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
For governor's race, you can talk to me. But in the Senate, nothing. You might as well have Mark Robinson tweeting about how MLK is terrible while he looks at weird porn in the Senate. Because he's going to vote the same way as Dave McCormick. We've got Chuck Grassley. Here's what he tweeted yesterday. Congrats, Kash Patel. And I have to just explain this. He spells his name K-A money sign H.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Okay, a money sign H. Congrats, Kash Patel, on your confirmation as FBI director. It's a good thing change is coming. One thing that won't change is my oversight. I'll be keeping a close watch to ensure transparency.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
A 99-year-old American is keeping a close eye on you, Cash.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
I don't think now. I don't think there's going to be any pressure. Yeah, no, the cash thing is, and I don't know how much more there is to say about it just because it's so disheartening. But, you know, it'll be interesting to see what the next shoe drop says. I've got a lot of outreach from... Former FBI people, even current. And, you know, like most of these agents are Trumpy, are MAGA.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
And the fact that they are planning now to shutter the domestic terrorism department, right? Because you can't go after white, bad white people. I just think that the ramifications are going to be really, really serious. And we don't exactly know what yet, but it is a category difference from some of this other stuff.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
All right, let's talk a little bit about Ukraine. Boy. That's kind of like my cash question. The president and the vice president are basically, and the secretary of state, I guess, are all on the side of Russia now. We're having a negotiation. It's unclear what we're getting out of the negotiation. It's unclear what Russia is being asked to give out of the negotiation.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
The current negotiation is that Russia will get everything. They'll get economic opportunity with us in Europe, and they'll get the land that they have. And they'll get Ukraine not being in NATO. And maybe Ukraine will get some security guarantees that nobody actually believes that the Trump-Vance administration would follow through on. Is that a summary of the state of play here for you?
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
No, we got the audio. We got the audio. I said this yesterday and we had so many comments about it. People couldn't believe that it was actually true. So to be fair to Dan Crenshaw, let's listen to him explain Trump's behavior. Let's listen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
You expect us to believe that shit? I mean, like what? I guess you, Adam, and Trump must be best pals. Crying Adam Kinzinger. When are you going to get your invite down to Mar-a-Lago? You guys are just buddies. Maybe you can go golfing together because he's mean to his friends, so he must love you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
He could be a DJ, though. I think he could be a DJ without having to apologize for Donald Trump and be made into an ass clown multiple times on the Piers Morgan show. He could just DJ.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
I'm sorry. The vice president put out yesterday as more effort for his tough negotiations. It's actually Russia that's crushing them on the battlefield.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Yeah. Ukraine did the invasion. And it is just another big lie. I want to go back to the description thing just about how beta it is really quick, just because I want to take it out of the context of Trump and the president and put it into a real life context. There's no way that Dan would act like this in any other situations.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
like if you go back to rotc and like there's a there's some bully that is also you know serving with him and he's walking around and he's going crying dan crenshaw just wears panties because he's a cry baby boy and like starts like calling a bit i'd be like ugly face joe over here and like sleepy todd like like calling everybody nicknames in that moment would dan be like you know
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
The right thing to do here, the grown-up thing to do here is just to let him call you names. Let him call you names. Because he really likes you. Because he really likes you. And you just take it. You just take it. You just let him call you Panty Dan. And you just say, okay, sir. Yes, sir. You would be the biggest...
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
beta bitch in the world if you did this in any other context like why is this like the tough guys say like only in the context of trump must we just like bend over and let him call you names like like what like zelensky is the is the person that is showing traditional alpha masculine virtues he's the one that didn't leave when his country was attacked it stood up to the bully
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
But I just remember writing to somebody like – You're hurting my effort to recruit you to run with all these tweets.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Zelensky should just act like me. Zelensky should just lick Trump's balls like I did. That's how he'd be a real man.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Let's game this out for a second, that outcome, because that seems decently likely at this point. It puts us in a big bind. If Marco, if our possibly Cuban agent, I don't know, possibly communist Cuban agent, I'm just throwing it out there, might be possible, but we don't know.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
If he cuts a deal with his Russian counterparty and, you know, whatever the contours of that, something like what I laid out at the beginning, and Zelensky says no, and there are enough European countries that say no, we'll keep backing you. where does that put us in that situation? Like, what do you do? You know, it was going to leave them in a very tough, you know, situation to game out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Like, are you then on actually on the side of Russia? We just like check out and say, good luck, you know, impact on relationships with Europe. I mean, I don't know that that whole possibility has really been thought through. I think that there's this kind of like notion that whatever Mr. Trump and Mr. Putin want is going to happen.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
On your 1984 thing, I do think we should mention the free speech party here, our free speech president and shadow president. That was their animating issue was that everyone should have the right to make racist jokes if they want and not be shadow banned by the social media companies. A couple of interesting wrinkles, though, about the free speech White House.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
The first was I interviewed Robert Garcia last night. congressman from long beach. He was on CNN and he said, basically Elon is a dick and the, the Democrats need to bring weapons to the bar fight. Kind of just like, I think I kind of mangled the phrase of, you know, we should, we shouldn't be bringing a knife to a gunfight, et cetera. Like that very common figure of speech.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
from eagle ed martin the u.s attorney a letter of inquiry saying that he wants to look into whether this was an illegal physical threat on elon musk's life obviously it is ridiculous like dan goldman other congressman wrote there's no such thing as a letter of inquiry you're literally making things up to use your letterhead to chill free speech why don't you stop weaponizing the doj against democrats while you still have your bar license like this is
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Robert Garcia is not not being quiet. But this is they are trying to intimidate people into stopping criticizing Elon and Trump and cash like that. They want regular people to feel like they might have to get a lawyer if they do it. And it's scary.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Yeah, I mean, obviously it takes and people have other considerations in their life. But I like your butt idea because I think the right answer here is don't behave. Don't behave. Say arrest me. Arrest us. Arrest me. Like, OK, so I used a figure of speech on CNN. Arrest me. Let's see it. Go to a grand jury because this is like where their whole strategy breaks down.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Because they believe they convinced themselves of their own BS that Donald Trump was targeted by the deep state and that it was unfair. Like all of the indictments, the U.S. government got evidence, went to a grand jury. The grand jury had to approve the indictment. They had to move forward. It's like, go ahead, go to take take this to a grand jury. Take my CNN clip to a grand jury. Good luck.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Call me back when you have it. Yeah. Arrest me. And I think that you'll find that a lot of this stuff will crumble. And I think there might still be some scary stuff coming behind it from Kash Patel. But this sort of stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
There you go. All right, Adam. Adam's ready to get arrested. I can tell. He's itching. The other free speech item I think I'd be remiss to not mention on the podcast. I'm sorry. I love Grimes' music. It's not for everybody. She decided she wanted to kiss with Elon Musk. I think that was a very bad decision in her personal life, but I do... I do think that she's a great artist. Love.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
I saw her Coachella a couple years ago. Her video about how she only eats spaghetti is one of the most inspired things in the entire internet if you're looking for a laugh this weekend. So anyway, she has a child with Elon Musk. She was tweeting yesterday basically, Elon, please return my calls. Our child is sick.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Let's just talk about the Georgia thing for a second. This guy, Rich McCormick, and this is quite a red district. This is not particularly a swing district. It didn't seem like he knew what he was signing up for. He won 64-35 in the last election. So again, not a close district. And just a ton of energy, a ton of people speaking out, folks pouring out of you know, the town hall.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
She goes on, I'm not giving any details, but he won't respond to texts or calls or emails. He skipped every meeting and our child will suffer lifelong impairment if he doesn't respond ASAP. So I need him to fucking respond. And if I have to apply public pressure, then I guess that's where we're at. She sent that on X. Then Elon shadow bans it.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
And usually I kind of like roll my eyes at this idea of shadow banning, but I went to see it. I went to look at the
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
you know because i saw a screenshot of it i went to find it i couldn't find it same and then you had to go into the replies and you could find it and then somebody tweeted at her with a screenshot of the shadow ban saying did you delete this and she replied lol no no so elon is like blocking his ex his baby mama's tweet about how he is a deadbeat dad that's where that's where the free speech party is right now
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
I understand people have issues and family problems and things sometimes are complicated. But when you have two baby mamas hate tweeting you within a week and you're on stage in sunglasses slurring with a with a chainsaw. I don't know. Seems like maybe your priorities are a little off.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Yeah, you're right about that. These are sick people. Okay, it's Friday. Everybody take a deep breath. I've got two little lanyards, two pieces of audio for everybody. One is substantive. The other one, we're going to close with some fun. It's interesting. Trump had an event yesterday for Black History Month at the White House.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
I actually think that's illegal, and I don't know why Eagle Ed Martin didn't send the cops in to start arresting people because there was an executive order that bans DEI events. So I don't really understand how that's legal, but I guess we'll have to turn to... Ben Wittes or Andrew Weissman on a future pod to have them clear that up for me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
But he acknowledged the CEO of Pfizer while he was there. And I think this is interesting for a couple reasons. The crowd reaction, but also to what we were talking about at the top about where some real real anger might get and where Trump might be getting himself into trouble by, by being so easily flattered by these rich guys and having these rich guys around him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
He might be, he might start to find himself out of touch with the forgotten man. And here's some evidence of it. Let's hear, let's hear his acknowledgement of the Pfizer CEO yesterday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
That's tough, getting booed at the White House event by a crowd of maggots.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Yeah, and I also think maybe it shows a little bit of a disconnect on the vaccine thing, and there's going to be some interesting choices ahead for us as we have a measles outbreak in this country. That's right. Let's just say we're monitoring it. When a CEO gets booed inside the White House by MAGAs, it's something that we're going to be keeping an eye on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
And I do wonder, as somebody who's been in this position, both as kind of the insurgent Tea Party candidate, but then as a congressman who's getting yelled at at town halls, like, this stuff does have an impact on these guys, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
All right, here's what I want to take everybody out with. I'm assuming you haven't seen this yet because you don't suffer as much as I do on the MAGA internet, but your friend and mine, new host of the Weekend Fox Show. Actually, before we get to that, I do notice everybody wants to be a podcaster. I appreciate that you are also now in the Substack space.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
I saw Corey Bush and Jamal Bowman have a podcast together. Matt Gaetz has a podcast. The water is warm, everybody. Welcome. It's a competitive marketplace. You're still losing to me in the ratings so far, but I'm going to keep an eye on how you're doing. Gaetz and Corey and Lara Lee Trump. She is also in the content business now. And she's not happy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
She's not satisfied, rather, just to have a weekend Fox show. She wants to go into another industry. And she has released a song this morning with French Montana. No. And I'd like to play it for us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
let the music take control okay all right no days off no days off that's enough jason please that's enough i'm begging you all right 9 30 coming to you soon larry lee trump in french montana any closing thoughts for us are you are you ready
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Yeah, a little Molly. A little candy flipping for some Lara Lee Trump. Well, that's a good one. I won't be putting the song in the show notes, so people can Google it for themselves if they want to find it. Thank you, Adam Kinzinger. Everybody, go subscribe to his sub stack. He's doing great work over there. And it's starting to happen. You can start to feel it out in the streets.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
He writes a Substack newsletter, and I guess he does Substack videos now. Substack multi-platform content producer. It's Adam Kinzinger. How you doing, bro?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
And I think that's good. So I appreciate you coming on the pod today. You bet, buddy. All right. We'll talk to you soon. Everybody else, we'll be back Monday with Bill Kristol. And over the weekend, actually, I'll be at Principles First in D.C. if you're around. I'm interviewing Jared Polis. A bunch of your other friends will be there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
So here's my thing. Anything that we can just noodle over it here live together, because I do think there needs to be a rallying cry for the protests. Like I hear what you're saying. I agree that it shouldn't be ideological. It shouldn't be particularly lefty populist per se, though, if they're lefty populist candidates, I'm open to hearing from their arguments.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
But like the rallying cry for the protest in the Tea Party originally, as I mentioned yesterday, was this. CNBC rant by Rick Santelli, right? About how people are getting screwed. Like, like I'm paying my mortgage. Why are we bailing out my neighbor? And so I do think there needs to be something right. Like something like people are getting screwed. It can't just be like democracy writ large.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
And I don't know. I think that maybe there's something with Elon, you know, I think that is like grabbable, even unelected South African billionaire. That's like randomly firing veterans. Like maybe there's, there's something there. That is the part that I think there's going to need to be something tangible about
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
And I do think the last night was a good start, but I was wondering if you have any, any thoughts on like what some of those topics could be.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Yeah, the guy in the MAGA hat right behind the bench that kept showing was impacting my rooting interest. I'm not going to say who I was rooting for, Canada. But, you know, it definitely was nice for the Canadians. The guy...
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
One particular example, and I don't know that Scott Curtis himself is going to be the person people's picture they put on flags. I doubt that he wants it, but I appreciate that he was willing to talk to us yesterday. He did an interview with Sam Stein. If you people want to listen to that, that's in our board takes podcast feed. But Scott was a retired Navy captain. 32 years in the Navy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
He came back, went into FEMA. He was the Section 7, which is kind of the Midwest chief of staff. But 55 years old, got that fork in the road email from Elon Musk, figured, okay, this might be a good time to retire from public service, look for a job in the private sector. He didn't have a lead or whatever, but I'll take it. We've got eight months. I'll figure it out. Accepts the offer to resign.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
13 days later, gets canned. OK, because he's one of these probationary employees. And this is just one example. Right. But it's like this guy served the country 32 years in the Navy, in war zones, real, real service to this country. And he was made an offer, a good faith offer by the government. And they just fucking pulled the plug on him like it's like some evil thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
you know, movie CEO, you know, I mean, the joke is like the George Jetson, like Mr. Spacely, you know, this just like somebody that's just like a dick. It's like, I made you a deal. I have billions of dollars, billions and billions and billions of dollars. I'm a South African immigrant. You serve the country. I'm going to fuck you over.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
And I don't, I just think that like that is going to like those kinds of stories I do think are going to build up and resonate with people. And Elon is a very easy bad cop in a story like that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Yeah, no, me neither. They didn't change the Canadian national anthem to take a dig at Trump about how this is their country, which I liked. So anyway, I like the digs. I like the digs. It's good. All right. We've got much, much to discuss. Too much, probably. But you did a sub stack yesterday, an emergency sub stack. I want to start there. The message of it was basically, Let's get loud.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
And just one more thing on this front. Again, this is just a fact. This is not like a political talking point. VA crisis line employees, among those fired amid the federal workforce purge. This is from themilitary.com. You know, I mean, some of these guys, some of these guys have talked about this, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Like the mental health issues, like coming out of service in Iraq and Afghanistan and like what we owe to these folks. Right. Is it really that critical for our $30-plus trillion budget debt, which I know you and I both agree needs to be resolved in some way? Is the VA crisis hotline employees, are they the reasons that we are running a deficit? I don't think so.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
I think that that's something we could prioritize.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Congratulations to our friends in Canada for their overtime hockey victory against the U.S. in the Four Nations face-off last night. And I'm pumped to be here today with a great American patriot, one of our faves, formerly a Republican congressman from Illinois. He served in the Air Force. He's the founder of Country First.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Elon is a veteran of the Doge Wars, of the online, of the meme wars. He's a veteran of the meme wars. You saw it with his big fat belly on stage at CPAC yesterday. Anyway, one other thing people can do before we start. I have more Elon rants coming and rants about several of the people we've mentioned already. But before we get into all these guys bad.
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
one other thing i think people can do and i want to have and sometime in the next couple weeks my friend amanda lipman on she runs a group called run for something that like encourages people to run for office and i know that this is something that you and i are aligned on but i i haven't actually explicitly said it on the podcast i don't think we'll see how everything goes but i think that 2026 will be the best time
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
in the foreseeable future for somebody to run as a Democrat who maybe doesn't have full, like all the traditional Democratic views, to your point. Somebody who has some heterodox views, somebody who has an interesting background, somebody who's a little different. You saw this in 2010 with Republicans like you running. We saw this in, God, I got to go back to the year. What was it?
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Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
The Mark Foley year, 2006, where a bunch of weird Democrats, like people that never would have won, like won. You get these wave years where people are pissed. And, and there's a backlash. And I think this is going to be one of those years. And people always are asking me, what can you do? What can you do? And obviously not everybody's going to run for office, but I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
Let's start to do something. This is a moment for a Democratic Tea Party of sorts. We can quibble over the particulars. But as somebody who was in the Tea Party wave of Congress people, what do you call it for?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
I just wanted to use this as an opportunity to like encourage people who are thinking about it, because this guy, Scott Curtis, that I mentioned, this retired Navy captain who just got fired. He just kind of said that as an aside in his conversation with Sam on YouTube where he was like, I don't know, maybe I'll run.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger: It's Starting to Happen
And I just want to encourage people that are out there that have a kind of background like his that are thinking maybe I'll run, that this is the time to do it. So you did it in 2010. I'm wondering what you think about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
between Mike Johnson and the Democrats was scuttled by Elon's megalomania and possibly ketamine use. We don't know. Mike Johnson attempted to fix it by stripping down the deal a little bit and getting Daddy Trump on board ahead of time, which probably should have done the first time, gotten approval from Daddy. But even still, 38 Republicans voted against it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It was just so North Korea-y yesterday, like even more than usual. Just like, like there was just no underlying ideological message. Because they just wanted to win.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
They got to own them harder, you know? Well, they got to own Mike Johnson. Mike Johnson's the new lib, which is why I think he's on thin ice. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, the happy part of me is this kind of we get to sit here and laugh and point and chuckle at their incompetence.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The dark side of me is like, man, if it continues to be this kind of a shit show and things look really, really bad in two years... and we have an 80-year-old sundowning Trump, might then the cults decide that they need to turn to a darker sort of vision for the future. And that's the thing that really has me a little concerned about it. So there you go. Don't be too happy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
From big events to silly moments you capture every day, doesn't it sometimes feel like all your favorite photos are just stuck on your camera roll? Wouldn't it be great to have an easy way to share and enjoy them with friends and family? That's where Aura comes in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Named the number one digital photo frame by Wirecutter, Aura makes it effortless to upload unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone, so your favorite memories are always within view. Plus, you can personalize and preload an Aura frame for a truly special, unforgettable gift. I mentioned this yesterday, but this is a good example of what we're talking about, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You think about the oral frame. You think about the photos that you're going to send. You're like, oh, my aunt might need to see some photos of her life. But it's also fun just for your friends. It's fun for your office. It's a fun place to dump all these photos that we're talking about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
When I was in Longwell, Sarah Longwell's office yesterday, it's the photos from our bus tour, the Bulwark bus tour. It's the photos from people hanging out together in the office. You take all these dumb photos. What are you doing with them? This way, you can get an Aura frame, put it up in your office, and throw out the photos of you and your colleagues.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
They get excited to see themselves when they walk in. It was a great idea. So happy Sarah did it. Save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver mat frames by using promo code BULLWORK at checkout. That's A-U-R-A frames.com, promo code BULLWORK. This deal is exclusive to listeners. So get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
They're taking a third swing this morning. The last I saw, Florida Rep. Annapolina Luna said that they are not negotiating with Democrats, which means they're going to need to get every single Republican on board. And boy, I don't see that as very likely. But I'm wondering what your takeaways are from the shit show over on Capitol Hill and the possible government shutdown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You wrote for The Atlantic. I did. It's an appropriate place to write. You wrote about people who aren't engaged in politics and how to reach them. And so, obviously, the right place to go for that was The Atlantic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Even if we don't agree, the headline was the conversation Dems need to have. And so we're two white guys with podcasts. So we'll have that conversation right now. And it was even if we don't agree with the views of leftists or liberals or never Trumpers or mega Republicans, we understand them or at least think we do.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The people whose views we don't understand tend to be the people who simply don't follow politics that closely. And yet that's most Americans. And you're arguing that the thing that the Dems should be focusing on is how to reach those people. And you feel like the current The current trajectory isn't great on that count. So why don't you talk about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You know, you wrote about kind of in 2016 that there was a lot of like, well, there was misogyny at play here. And, you know, that there's obviously this conversation about how there's this misinformation and the disinformation of the Russians. And this time it's like, well, there could be racism and misogyny and inflation was a problem and Biden was too old. We're going to get to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And like all those things are kind of true, right? But they also are alibis. You know, they also are alibis to having to actually go out there and convince people that the other alternative for governing is superior.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
in other media bubbles and having people that have non-MAGA views represented in other spaces. I think I played the audio from my friend, from our guy Stavros, who's a comedian from, I think his podcast was called Come Town. And he went on one of these bro podcasts and crushed it. I gave the best answer that I've heard yet for not voting for Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I'll put in the show notes for people if you haven't seen it. But what is the right balance of vote? Where is your focus on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I'm a Wickler stan. I'm neutral on the DNC race. Nobody's knocked my socks off yet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
There was a bald guy on MSNBC talking about how the Democrats should learn more from Trump and how they should do tax cuts. The Trump tax cuts were really great. And he's running for DNC chair. I thought it was performance art. I saw it on the plane yesterday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
We're going to get him booked on Potsdam. America, he has some interesting points. Definitely more corporate tax cuts, I think, is the path back for the Democrats.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Awful, awful. Every ad that I've seen trying to target low-info voters is like, a parody of an attempt to do it. So like all of the ad wizards out there working on this, like you just got to start like throw everything in the trash and start from square zero.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You got to bring some people in the room that are like, forget about Tony Blinken. I don't know who Dan Quayle is. I don't even know what you're talking about. I've never heard of Jake Tapper. If you've heard of Jake Tapper, get him out of the room.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Hey, guys, if you listen to this podcast, you care about what's going on in the world. And, you know, we're doing our best here at The Bulwark as we grow to expand out reporting, reported commentary, no bullshit insight. But all of this stuff is based on people doing shoe leather reporting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
People going out there and gathering sources and going around the world and educating us about what's happening in the world. And one of the places that's out there still doing that is the Washington Post. And this podcast is sponsored by the Washington Post.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
When you go to washingtonpost.com slash the bulwark, our listeners can get an exclusive deal to subscribe for just 50 cents per week for your first year. If you listen to us, you know the great work the Washington Post does on a bunch of topics. We got Catherine Rampell that comes on. We got Carol Lennig. She's covering the Secret Service.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Probably the best reporter on the beat out there at the Secret Service. Across the board, my man Josh Jossie doing politics. Also, if you're in a rush and need to catch up quickly on the day's most important and interesting stories, the Post the 7 newsletter is a quick commute read sent each weekday morning. The Post even offers a cool feature for audio lovers like you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You can actually listen to articles in addition to reading them. So you can tackle your to-do list and catch up on the news at the same time. Now more than ever, it's important to stay up to date on the world. So go to washingtonpost.com slash the bulwark to subscribe for just 50 cents per week for your first year. That's 80% off their typical offer. So this is truly a steal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Once again, that's washingtonpost.com backslash the bulwark to subscribe for just 50 cents per week for your first year. Here's another concern I have about the low info ecosystem, particularly on the left, that some of the folks are getting radicalized in a way that I find concerning. I would as a former Republican.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
So, you know, maybe some libs can dismiss my views, but you're a Democrat in good standing. So I want to talk to you about this. I had a friend that texted me. Goodish standing. I had a friend that texted me, and I don't know why they were on the Pod Save America Reddit page. I don't know if you are ever, but apparently it was in shambles over your lack of support for vigilante assassinations.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Another person messaged me about how you, Jon Favreau, your Twitter replies were filled with people outraged that you Twittered a tweet about how the Democrats might want to moderate on immigration. I'm wondering what your sense is of the extent right now of the backlash on the left and whether some of the lessons might be to move into a place that's a little concerning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The assassination bothered you or the conversation?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Yeah, my big takeaway from that is that I think it says something nice about you, that you have your friends that are willing to be that honest with you to tell you that they don't think it might be that bad.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
One exception. Yeah. I mean, Bill Ayer's puppet, Barack Obama, did get into the presidency. So maybe it has worked one time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I'm going to be a little less generous to your critics than you are because there's a poll that came out recently about approval of Luigi's actions in this murder assassination. And if you break it down by age, it's just reverse. It's just reverse. The oldest, it has the lowest approval among the elderly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I think most of my friends would be scared to offer that opinion to me for fear that I'd browbeat them and get into a screaming text match or that I would derail the LSU game by yelling at them about their... about how sanguine they are in the face of the authoritarian threat. So that's nice.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Slightly more, but not really very much among Gen X. Slightly more, concerningly slightly more, but still not very high among our people, the millennials. And then, well, not Tommy, he's Gen X. And then... That's awesome.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
A big amount of support, like a third to 40%, depending on the poll, among Gen Z. And so, the people that have the least actual exposure to the healthcare system... Yeah, because if you're under 26, you can be on your parents' health insurance thanks to the affordable care.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Right. They're the ones with the most righteous rage... That just doesn't fucking square for me. I know that there are people under 26 or under 30 that have had horrible experiences with the healthcare system through their parents or through themselves or their friends. Certainly some. But the math doesn't work.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
At scale, if the healthcare system is so horrible and oppressive and we're at such a horrendous state that vigilante assassinations are necessary, then you would think that the people that have... had to experience the trauma of that for the longest and the most acutely. The people that have the most health problems, old people, would share the view.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
So to me, it seems like there is at least some bandwagon effect. Maybe there's some genuine rage among Gen Z, but then there's a bandwagon effect that is very real and alarming.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I like that about you. We'll get to that more. The lack of ideology. I'm here in, I should have said this at the top, I'm here in Phoenix for a maga cella. And I saw Steve Bannon last night and Tucker and Ben Shapiro, all your faves. Yeah. And so I want to talk about that. But your point It relates to what I experienced last night is there is no ideological through line here, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Okay. One more thing on this for you. It relates back to Elon. And this is something that I really struggle with as at the norms loving never Trumper is I think one thing that is objectively true is is that the Democrats cannot continue to be the party of the status quo. It's like we have to protect these institutions. We've got to save and defend them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
This hurts me because I think the institutions are working pretty good. They're not perfect. They're pretty good. I still have my small C conservative inside me somewhere, which is like, Maybe we should just keep the good stuff and not rock the boat too much, you know, because what comes next might be worse, you know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And yet, I recognize that politically, that's not very potent right now, to say the least. So, how can the Democrats regain this mantle of challenging the status quo, of being rebellious without becoming the party of vigilante assassination?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And today I'm here with the co-founder of Crooked Media, co-host of Pond Save America. You might have heard of it. He also has a podcast, Offline. He was Obama's speechwriter from 2005 to 2013. It's Jon Favreau. What's going on, man?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Speaking of Joe Biden, the Wall Street Journal had a story yesterday talking about how they were managing his age inside the administration. Early in the administration, there was a directive that meetings should be short. They tried to make them later in the day.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The Democratic chairman of the Armed Services Committee, Adam Smith, said he never got Biden on the phone one time, said he talked to Obama several times when he was a much less senior congressman. Jim Himes said the same. So these are Democrats on the record. Cabinet meetings were tightly scripted and barely happened. Donors noticed the decline on calls. Staff wouldn't show him bad news, I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
We're showing him clips that was only good news, according to the story. I'm mad about this. I was thinking this morning. When I think about the biggest political fuck-ups of my life, non-Donald Trump category, I was really thinking about this. And I decided that George W. going into Iraq was the one, two, and three. It has the entire podium on the biggest fuck-ups of my life.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Like the Republicans have voted against this. Like some of them voted against it because they wanted their little special line item that they liked that got cut out at the last second. Some of them voted against it because they don't like debt limit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Mitch McConnell not convicting Donald Trump in January of 2021 was number four. And Biden's selfish behavior this year is number five. or number three, depending on how you want to count it. I think it was just absolutely catastrophic and I'm pretty enraged by it. I'm wondering what you thought reading the Wall Street Journal story.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You might've put a number one. I went through every administration in my mind. I was like, I didn't really count. I was eight, I was six for Reagan when he raised that. So I was like, HW, Clinton. It's like Monica. No, this is worse than Obama.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Some of them voted against it because they just like positioning themselves as the craziest son of a bitch out there that just wants to burn everything down. They think that's a good brand for them. Elon, the difference between the two bills, what was it exactly that Elon didn't like about the first bill that he liked about the second bill? It's not clear.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I sat and thought about this too, their advisors this morning for a little bit. And I was like, I thought about myself. I put myself in their shoes. It's hard to put myself in the shoes of people like we're with them for 30 years. I never had that type of relationship, but there was, there was a second layer of people too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And I was like, I probably would have tried to position him as best as possible up until that debate. I probably would have done the same things up until that debate, I think. I probably would have been wrong to do it, but I think I probably would have. But there's no way that – and I can say this because I did it in 2012.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I went out and I said to a boss, I was like, no, I'm not going to go out and do this. I was like, I would not have gone out and spun – Like, oh, did you see the rally in Norfolk? Like how vigorous he was? I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have done it. I would have quit. And nobody quit. Like nobody quit. Nobody pushed him. Nobody forced it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Like some of them spoke on background at the New York Times. I guess it was maybe the best thing he could do. You know, from that. And then to me, like the grave sin of all this is that The thing that makes me the most upset really is that he, the selfishness continued, continues to now, right now, right? It continues right now to December 20th.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Like that when he finally came to terms with the fact that he needed to drop out, he needed to bring the vice president into the Oval Office or wherever they meet to Delaware and be like, kid, you do what you need to fucking do. All right. You push the old guy onto the train. Like we got to save this country. You do what you need to do. That's what he needed to do. And he did the opposite.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Like the whole year, he was like, they were whining to people that Kamala wasn't giving him enough credit. And like now after the election, he seems like they've been nicer to Trump than they've been to Kamala in the post-election.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It is a motley collaboration of people that is united really only by one thing, which is like... we'd like Donald Trump and we don't like the libs.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The message in that Midas Touch interview was just like, again, I think that's maybe the frustrating thing. It's like, I just, I think I cared more. I think I believed it more, the democracy stuff, than he actually believed it. I think that he cared more about his legacy than that, and that's very disappointing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Oh, brother, Favreau. Yeah, it's tough. And then people are like, well, I don't, you know, I get it. So we were like, I don't want to hear about this. I don't want to talk about this, but I'm like, I'm still, you know, probably when I'm 80 years old, I'm still going to be talking about all three of the things on the, on the list there. Yep. You know, like Iraq was quite a while ago as well.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It still comes up from time to time. The Mitch McConnell thing. I mean, if I see Josh Holmes at age 75 walking down the street, I'm going to be pointing my bony little finger in his chest. They're like, you did this. So, you know, that's just me. Maybe that's not it. Some people move on. That's just me. All right. I've set you up for the crying now. Okay. You're emotional. You're mad at Joe Biden.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You're thinking about the health care murder. When you started keeping it 1600, Barack Obama was still president. Yeah. So that was a while ago. How are you feeling about all this? Yeah. You know, like, you know, if George Stephen Hoppus has Joe Biden, how would you feel at the end of the election? How do you feel about doing all this every day?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You haven't had a moment of doubt in the last month that the American idea is an American idea worth fighting for?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Are your hopes not capped though? Okay, sure. Yeah, sure. I still have hope. I still hope things are better. But like, is there not something fundamentally changed about your, like, do you feel like you've lost some of your capacity for it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I forgot we have that in common. You were a Jevi too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
A more Favreau-ish, hopeful podcast host would end on grace. That'd be a good place to end. But I want to take one more pass at you about trying to, I want to try to rip this hope from your soul one more time before we go to Christmas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It's just something I just thought about for the first time this week. Teddy, when he goes to school in like five years, and they have on the wall, they have the picture of the presidents. Donald Trump's going to be on there two times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he is. Two times. And so, like, it's going to look up there and it's going to be like, look at this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Look at this great list of white men who fought for everybody's right for liberty and pursuit of happiness, equality. These great people that you're supposed to aspire to. And the worst person in the country. Like, really, America's worst human. Only two of the last three.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
That's the best you can go? You're a good dad. Seriously. I was hoping, though, in unseriousness, to get you to downgrade America in the Obama spirit. Belgians think that Belgium is great, too. Malaysians think Malaysia is great, too. We're just not actually that special. I was trying to get you to downgrade us in the spirit of what from whence you came.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
But no, you're still feeling the American exceptionalism in there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
one or two or three or four republicans at most at least for the first couple months while they fill out those special elections so yeah it's not going to be easy for them the musk thing do you have thoughts on on chairman musk i mean he's he's the shadow president uh potentially the speaker of the house also the largest government contractor yep
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I appreciate all of you, all my friends out there. They're like, ooh, have you seen this story? Yes. Have you seen this? Yes. I've fucking seen it, okay? I'm online, all right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I'm going to tell you this. This is what I'm going to do. And this is a step up for me. I'm not going to bring it onto the mountain. That's good. How about that? Like at lunch when I'm skiing, I'm not going to be on Twitter. So that's it. I still will probably be tweeting on Christmas night after I've had a few drinks. We're looking for progress there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
All right. Jon Favreau, thank you so much for a good show, a long show, kind of a meaty show for everybody. Since I'm gone next week, people needed every single second of this, and I hope they enjoyed it. Everybody else, you have a Merry Christmas. We'll see you back here Monday. What will it be? Monday, December 29th. Because of the bulwark, we work.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
you know okay this is america we work here we have the good old fashion republican work ethic john favre will be back for you with pods of america i don't know what february 14th or something after a little french january 6th we're back january 6th big celebration yeah it will be wild bye tim we'll see y'all later if we make it through december
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It seems like there's some potential conflicts there. I think in the same Mike Lee clip that you referenced, you talked about how Musk could drain the swamp. Is there a precedent for somebody that is this deep into all of the different levers of government in addition to owning a media platform, a social media platform?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
He's also on the take from the Chinese. I'm going to be bringing that up with Steve Bannon when I see him here in a couple hours. That feels like something that could potentially be a conflict, to have the Speaker of the House and shadow president and biggest government contractor also being on the take from the Chinese.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
We're going to hold a lot of space together, actually. At the very end of this podcast, I'm going to endeavor to make you cry like John Lovett did when he was last on. I'm telling you, you're going to have a tough time. His tears were on Jesse Waters' show. So if we don't have a clip from this podcast show up on Jesse Waters' show, it is going to be a disappointment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I want to get more into the Jon Favreau anti-corporate populist in the Democrat section before. I'm curious your take on whether this is usually what you would ask me on Pod Save America, but we're going to flip the mic around. What's with these Republicans? Do you think Mike Johnson can survive? I want to play you a clip from my buddy Bannon last night.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Kind of a half-hearted no there from the crowd, but still didn't hear a lot of yeses. Do you think Mike survives?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You know, he doesn't really fit also. I mean, Elon with the drug use and like the many, why like both Elon and Trump have the many wives, the womanizing, they, I think like naked women, it seems like Mike Johnson, on the other hand, monitoring each other's porn intake. It's a key difference. It doesn't feel like, you know, if you're going to bro down, he's the guy at the top of the list.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Steve, later in that clip, said he doesn't have the moxie.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Well, if you're concerned about the gerontocracy... That would be Actually it would be Appropriate Passing of the torch In the late American Republic From President Biden And President Grassley Yeah That gives us something To hope for Keep up the energy Do you think he'll stay Do you think he'll survive Johnson I think it's 50-50.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And I've been saying, I think because of inertia, I'd put it a little bit above 50-50 just because it's like you can't beat somebody with nobody. It even took a long time to get rid of Mike Kevin, even though they wanted to get rid of Mike Kevin for a long time. It's an impossible job. So it's not like if there was a clear...
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
MAGA alternative with Moxie, who was an actual congressman, not Vivek Ramaswamy in this big forehead, then sure. I think they could get rid of him for sure. For him to survive, his challenge now is he's going to have to squeeze out this CR with just Republican votes, unless the Dems bail him out. The Dems aren't going to bail him out, right? I've been kind of impressed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I think I did. I don't remember. Or maybe I was sensitive about it. I might have not sent it because I felt bad for it. But it's been a few weeks, so now the scars have built up. No, I think it's funny. We'll find the archive. Before we get to tears...
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I will say, the Dems have shown some backbone on this. You could imagine a different Democratic Party that would have been a little bit
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I've been impressed with the Democrats. I wanted them to let him walk the plank, and they have been letting him walk the plank. It's an impossible job to begin with. And while we're just being happy for a second before we kind of get into the depths of despair, I do think about like the lame duckness of Trump might limit his urbanist power somewhat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is the last daily Bulwark Podcast out of the year. I'll be back. I'm not like my guest who's taken off, who knows, a whole month, I think, working on French time. I'll be back the Monday after Christmas. But next week I'm going skiing. I need it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And so that's kind of a double-edged sword because on the one hand, I think, again, it will, you know, maybe prevent some of the authoritarian stuff we're worried about. On the other hand, it might make them start doing some of this. I want to play a little bit more from Bannon last night. And one last thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
msnbc fuck you nobody watches more msnbc than that guy and your mother i mean like they're the top two msnbc viewers on the marketplace and he still so so it's a little performative there to be like fuck you but they're gonna have to start doing this don't you think like pretending like trump might run again in order for him to maintain his hold or is that is that wishful thinking
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And before we get to talking about your Atlantic article about what the Democrats are doing wrong, which might also lead to tears, we need to talk about what's happening on the Hill. By the time we have this podcast up, the state of play might have changed some, but biggest picture, here's what we got. There was a bipartisan deal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Mike Davis wanted to put me in the women's prison, he said. I think that's a pretty good deal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
If we're going to suffer, we might as well suffer together. My only other observation from all this, which is related from last night, is... You know, the signage at this place, this America Fest is all confirmed Trump's cabinet. It's just total Trump cultish hagiography. The speeches are all over the place.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I mean, literally, it's like Ben Shapiro gave like what could have been a Paul Ryan speech with like 20% of Mr. Trump. You know, God's hand is on Mr. Trump, like put on top of the Paul Ryan speech. And then Bannon is like a wrestling ski Trump 2028. Then Tucker's like, you know, kind of we need to go after the big banks, you know, and then like Ben Carson is like, there's no coherent through line.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Yeah. And I do wonder, before we get to your suggestions on what the Dems could do. am I being Alan Lichtman-y to just think that this might just burn itself out? Like maybe the Dems just need to let this, let this burn itself out. It's like burned really hot and they got what they wanted. And now, you know, they've got nothing left to fight for.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Yeah, I'm actually doing a deeper dive later this afternoon just on the crypto element of this. There's this great Substack article by Molly White. I'm going to interview Molly so people can get that on YouTube or in our Bulwark Takes feed. But I wanted to ask you about just kind of looking back about the opposition here, because I do think reflecting back on the first term.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
This issue is maybe the biggest failure of the institutions and the opposition. The idea of the emoluments clause became kind of like a joke, honestly, during the first term. People would roll your eyes when you talked about it, but like... There was a test drive of all this stuff in the first term.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Like Trump was doing things that were totally unprecedented in the first term as far as enriching himself and his family. It was just kind of small ball stuff compared to what you just laid out. And so are there any lessons that can be learned from that?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
You know, like the idea that the Democrats have controlled Congress for two years during the Trump first term and didn't really do meaningful investigations on this, I guess, compared to what Republicans did against the Hillary Clinton server, Benghazi, to me, like, seems like just a huge mistake in retrospect.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
My only thought on that is 100% agree. I don't know how to fix that. The image I always bring up whenever people talk about overreacting is, if you went back and showed a front page of the newspaper the day after January 6th to anyone in January of 2015, they would say, that is impossible, that is insane, there's no way that could happen here, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
And so then, how can you convince the people that would have had that view in January 2015 to act So wie sie es im Januar 2021 oder 2025 haben. Es ist wie ein menschlicher Instinkt. Es ist mehr ein psychologischer als ein politischer Frage. Menschen sind adaptabel.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Und ich glaube, vielleicht gibt es eine Lektion hier von dem anderen Artikel, den du geschrieben hast, den ich referieren möchte, nämlich dieses Amerika's future is hungry. Und ich weiß nicht, ob es Möglichkeiten gibt, dass wir von dem lernen können, welche Bedingungen es jetzt gibt. Ich meine, ein solches Beispiel ist genau an diesem Punkt.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Ich glaube, Orban versuchte Menschen, in seinem Sohn- und Sohnhotels zu bleiben. Das ist nur eine direkte Vergleiche zu dem, was wir hier sehen. Aber was ist noch, seit wir vielleicht ein bisschen hinter der Zeitung sind, passiert da, das eine nützliche Lektion sein könnte?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
That must be somebody in the back of the heritage building. They don't even realize the guy is still back there. He's been there since 1983. It's like, we got to fire this guy that's coming up with a bad metric here.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
This is the problem with the link. There's like... I don't know how to do this. This is another political challenge, right? Where the remaining Wall Street Journal Republican types that are out there, they haven't accepted the reality of how far down the path we are towards the authoritarianism element of it. And they think that is, as you were mentioning earlier, like TDS or hyperbolic.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
And since they don't accept the premise, I don't feel like they have... It's also true that, you know, the...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
You mentioned China. Yesterday we were on Nicole Wallace together and you kind of alluded to the fact that there are some similarities with what's happening with the universities to, or some maybe echoes of the cultural revolution in China. Afternoon Cable News isn't really the best place to explore those kind of metaphors at length.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
So I was like, I was listening to you and I was like, I want to hear more about that. So luckily we're together today. So I would like to hear more about that comparison.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020 Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020 Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020 Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Untertitelung des ZDF, 2020
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Yeah, do you worry at all about the propaganda side of it, with the taking him out? I guess that's the thing that I don't, it's hard for me to process, like, so, why did they do it, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Like, there's the positive way to look at that, which is that he responded to pressure, you know, Van Halen is there, I've pointed out at a press conference that El Salvador is a party to this international covenant on civil and political rights, and as part of being that covenant, they...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Es ist ihnen notwendig, dass sie diesen Gefangenen Zugang zu einem Arzt oder, weißt du, zu außerhalb Zugang geben. Also auf der einen Seite ist das gut. Auf der anderen Seite machen sie dieses seltsame Ding, wo sie diese Pretend Margaritas in der Bildung stellen. Und dann ist Bukele wie retweeten Menschen, die darüber sprechen, wie es alles Teil eines Trolls war. Und sie werden beweisen, dass...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Hallo und willkommen zu The Bulwark Podcast. Ich bin euer Host Tim Miller. Ich bin begeistert, hier mit Staff Writer at The Atlantic zu sein. Ihre Bücher sind Autocracy Inc., Twilight of Democracy und die Pulitzer Prize gewinnende Gulag A History. Es ist Anne Applebaum. Lass uns das machen, Anne.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Everybody else, we'll see you back here on Monday with Bill Kristol. Have a wonderful Easter weekend.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Gregor Garcia ist ein schlechter MS-13-Mann, und die Demokraten werden sich aussehen, als würden sie MS-13-Mann zocken. Ich denke nur daran, wie das in anderen Ländern funktioniert. Es ist schwer für mich, meine Hände zu wenden, ob wir denken, dass Bukele das in Bezug auf Schwierigkeiten gemacht hat, wie in Bezug auf Druck, oder ob es ein Propagandaprogramm war.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Gibt es andere Lessons oder Vergleiche, die Sie sich vorstellen können? Für mich ist das natürlich ein bisschen wie ein Testplatz für die Trump-Administration. Sie legen den Fuß in die Wasser, um zu sehen, was sie mitnehmen können. Ich muss mir vorstellen, dass das... Slow walking towards the type of place where you're sending more and more people to prison camps such as this.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
There have got to be parallels, right? I don't know. I'm just wondering, as you've been watching this play out, has it struck any memories from the research you were doing for the book?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Ich bin gut. Ich bin gut. Wie bist du? Gut genug, ja. Gut genug. Ich bin gut genug, hier in meiner persönlichen Leben. Geben all die Gulag News out there. I was talking to Katie and I was like, we better get Ian Applebaum on. Who better to have than the author of Gulag History?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
And at least one, at least one, not the, and we know, obviously there's no accusation of lawlessness for Andre, the makeup artist you referenced, but like there's at least another one, the Miami Herald was reporting that was legal, like that was like that went through the legal refugee process, went to the third country, went to Columbia, then came to Florida, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
So, you know, in some of these cases, we know they weren't even illegal.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
We had a minor, maybe positive green shoot late Thursday night when Chris Van Hollen got to meet with Kilmar Abrego-Garcia, possibly the first known person to actually get out of So I worried a little bit about why they let out Abrego Garcia to meet Chris Van Hollen. I mean, clearly, well, one of the reasons was to show he wasn't dead, which people were beginning to wonder about.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Yeah, JBL wrote about the mindset of the ICE agents doing the arresting in his newsletter earlier this week. I'll put a link in the show notes for people because that's a starting point for a conversation that we do need to have. I want to just really quickly go to your point about the logic of
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
You know, sending Abrego Garcia and these Venezuelans to Secoda and what we heard yesterday on the Fourth Circuit from Judge Wilkinson. It was a Reagan appointee, a conservative judge, who essentially upbraided the administration for not responding to the court order. um die Rückkehr von Obrego Garcia zu ermöglichen. Und er schrieb das.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Es ist in manchen Fällen schwierig, das Thema sehr hart zu beantworten, aber in diesem Fall ist es nicht hart. Die Regierung beurteilt das Recht, die Residenzen dieses Landes in fremden Gefängnissen zu stecken, ohne die Bedeutung des due process, das die Grundlage unserer konstitutionellen Ordnung ist.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
Weiterhin beurteilt es im Grunde, dass es, weil es sich von der Beurteilung gerettet hat, nichts machen kann. Das sollte nicht nur den Juden schockierend sein, sondern auch dem intuitiven Sinn der Freiheit, that Americans far removed from courthouses still hold dear. Extremely blunt from a Reagan appointee judge there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
The Magna Carta 1215, the other day, no free man shall be seized, imprisoned, dispossessed, outlawed, exiled or ruined in any way except by the lawful judgment of his peers and the law of the land. And this is pretty old material.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1024: Anne Applebaum: Everything Is a Game to Trump
I want to go to your most recent article for The Atlantic, Kleptocracy Inc. You write, American government, American foreign policy and American trade policy are slowly being transformed, not to benefit Americans, but to benefit the president, his family and his friends. Only voters can stop them. Give people kind of just a top line summary of what you wrote about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Hey, guys, a couple of programming notes. Number one, my colleague, the great Mona Charon, she has a new pod out or a reform pod, I guess we've begged to differ. We have retired at the end of the Biden years. And Mona is instead launching a new pod, the Mona Charon show, which is going to focus on long form conversations about big picture issues off of the news.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Biden said this last night with Lawrence O'Donnell. Biden was like, well, not exactly, but he was like, you know, maybe I should have put my name on the stimulus checks and the people should have learned more about the infrastructure. And it's kind of like, no, I don't. That's not it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
And we're back normal schedule next week. We will be taping Monday morning with Bill talking a lot about the coming. I'm not going to say it, but also Trump's rally on Sunday and then a full schedule next week. So stick with us. I get it. If you don't want to turn on the tube next week, I get it. But you can still hear my dulcet voice.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
I think that you're absolutely right. And I don't want this follow up question to make it seem like I'm minimizing the fact that people, particularly working class folks, were voting in part on the fact that they're experiencing pain from inflation and that their wages weren't meeting it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
That said, it's important to kind of hash out how much of this is economy and how much of this is cultural, right? Because it matters to what the Democrats do going forward. Yeah. And I just want to use one example because it was such a hot spot in the election. I pulled this up before you were on. Looked at Clark County, Ohio, which is where Springfield is, right? So the whole...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
And, you know, I'll give you a trigger warning before I play any voices that you don't want to hear. Up next.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
The whole controversy about the Haitians was premised on the fact that there were more jobs coming into Clark County, into Springfield, and that they couldn't fill them, right? So they had to bring in Haitians. And that Springfield was on a comeback. So there's economic growth happening in Springfield.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
If you ask Mike DeWine or the new senator he just appointed, John Husted, they would talk about the economic growth in Clark County that happened. In 16, Trump 57, Clinton 38. In 24, Trump 64, Harris 34. So he gained a net 11 points in a county that was having economic growth over that period on the back of Biden policies. And yet still people are like, nope, F it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
And so to me, that says that it's... it's obviously all these things are a mix, but there's a big part of this that is some just cultural disconnect, you know?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
ron brownstein this guy understands data and and what is happening with the electorate better than anybody i love having him on the pod we're going to do a little bit of look back to the 2024 election but also look forward on kind of this demographic the coalitions and and how things are shifting as well as uh he comes from he's uh coming from california so we'll talk a little bit more about the politics of the fires and everything happening out there and uh how climate change is going to be affecting all of us so it's a good convo hope you guys enjoy it up next ron brownstein
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
I just I'm worried that it is the Luigi Mangione pivot and that the Democrats say what we really need to do is be meaner towards CEOs and we can still not change anything culturally. I think that that's I don't think that's a totally irrational thing for them to think. I think it's wrong, but I think that that might happen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
I love to zag from the consultant class. It makes me feel good because I think that that is correct. I agree that that frame is correct as the big frame, but I think they have to. They have to pick strategic battles to fight him on the culture front, I think is one. And probably where I really disagree is that the battles they would pick would be the wrong ones.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
So maybe it's better that they don't do any at all. But anyway, for another day, before we get to Biden and the fires. I want to drill down one more time on the original question, right? Because there are a couple of stats that I have seen over the last week. One of them came from you that I want to talk about, which was one was about this question of turnout versus people shifting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
One of them was about 90% of the counties in the country moved towards Trump, right? Yeah, which is unbelievable, which to me, again, shows that this is... movement towards Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Then if you drill down on particularly these counties and precincts where you have high degrees of non-white working class voters, the numbers are unbelievable, like particularly outside of the swing states, but even in the swing states like the Bronx, etc. The other side of the argument, though, the turnout side of the argument, this one really got my goat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Your fellow Venice resident Peter Hamby shared this one yesterday. The young people least likely to vote in 2024 because they didn't like either of the candidates. were college-educated Zoomers. So there certainly was a drop among young voters who didn't feel motivated by Biden. So anyway, how do you adjudicate all that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Friday. I've got with me, friend of the pod, Ron Brownstein, Senior Editor at The Atlantic, Senior Political Analyst for CNN. His most recent book is Rock Me on the Water, 1974, The Year Los Angeles Transformed Music, Movies, Television, and Politics.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
He certainly expanded his support in New York, New Jersey.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
I mean, it was- You also can't blame that on the campaign strategy, right? It's not like Kamala Harris didn't ensure that was a high salience issue for voters. Like people knew. People knew, exactly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
I wish we could just talk about that, but I will talk about LA and the fires and you're coming at us from Venice. We'll get to all that at the end, but first, how are you doing? How are things?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Yeah, for everybody. Just to close the loop, it was Trump got 74.2 million votes in 2020, 77.3 in 2024. So 3 million more, second most of all time. So, you know, there's something to think about that. After January 6th, second most presidential votes, raw votes of all time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Okay, I want to talk about the Biden farewell. Just while we're here, we have a little breaking news. Due to the dangerously cold temperatures expected Monday, Trump's inauguration is moving indoors. That's going to be a weird vibe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Sean Spicer off the hook this time. All right, just really quick. I can only take so much Biden legacy stuff these days. But you do have an article in The Atlantic on why late regime presidencies fail. I'd love for you just to give us the thumbnail of it and then people can go read the rest if they're intrigued.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Oh, no. This article is getting darker by the minute.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Yeah. It's a nightmare. I keep hearing from friends and people out there and just like who kind of go back to the neighborhoods to check on what's happening with the Palisades and all the, it's where everybody's like, it's worse than you even think just total devastation. All right. I want to do the politics of that towards the end. Sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Well, maybe the stupidest president in history will break the trend there, be unable to capitalize on the trend.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
you know the threats to men and this whole conversation around that on the pot on monday which might be a distraction from whatever else is happening in the news that day she's excited about it we're excited about it so i'll put a link in the show notes here make sure you can go and subscribe to the feed to get it in your apple podcast or spotify podcast and um
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
You make good pot. You know how to transition for me. I think that if they were able to kind of take the good traits of Trump and J.D. Vance and mesh them together into a single president, the opportunity would be there. Like Trump's ability to appeal to kind of the less engaged voter, particularly these younger kind of men of color, you know, that I think like him for various reasons.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
But speaking of total devastation, I want to get your... I haven't had you on since the election. So I wanted to get your... biggest picture view on kind of what we know now there's, you know, some more data has come out. There's all these snap vibes and narratives that get out there. And, and at the time you interviewed the Harris advisors about a month ago, we'll put that link in the show notes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
cultural affect reasons as much as anything. If you're able to have that but not have all the chaos and the nonsense and the, you know, sort of moronic instincts that Trump has at times, maybe you'd be better positioned to take advantage of it. We'll see, as Trump likes to say. We'll see what happens. I want to do fires really quick.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
My buddy, Brian Tyler Cohen, interviewed your governor, Gavin Newsom, and they talked about the threat to withhold funding, emergency funding from California, which I think is a real threat. Kristi Noem's testifying in front of Congress for a confirmation hearing right now, and she would not guarantee that they would give emergency funding. So I think it's a real threat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Empathy. Mike Johnson replied, Speaker Johnson, instead of making highly produced clapback videos with social media influencers, ouch, Brian, you should get to working helping Californians. What do you think about the politics of this for Gavin? Obviously, it's cutting both ways.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Way outside the traditional Republican coalition.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
People don't want to read that, but I want to cut through like at the, at the most top level, there's a fundamental question that is emerging on the democratic side. Was this about depressed democratic turnout or was it about a shift towards Trump? And obviously, it's always a little bit of both. But I'm wondering how you would adjudicate that conversation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
I'm glad you mentioned the Burgum thing because you'd sent a tweet about this too, that Burgum is signaling that the administration is all in to stop or reverse the green energy transition.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
That it's not just about investing and drilling, drill, baby, drill, but it's also about stopping the green transition, which should be an interesting piece of information to the college-educated youth that decided that they couldn't decide between the two candidates in this election.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
As you mentioned at the top, we have a lot of friends that are suffering in LA, but you've also written a book about a year in LA. Do you have any, do you want to leave us with an ode to Los Angeles? Any stories or anecdotes?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Ron Brownstein, thank you for your wisdom. And for all that, we'll put the links to your work, the Atlantic into the book in the show notes, and we'll be talking to you again soon.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Everybody else will be back here Monday. What are we going to talk about? I don't know. I think Tacitus or something. Quiz Bill Kristol and the Romans. I'm not sure if there's anything else going on on Monday. We'll see you all back here then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
We'll be doing crossovers and have a moment on here to talk about it again soon. A couple other things. I'm popping on to YouTube either if there's breaking stuff in the afternoon after I've already taped the pod or if they're kind of niche topics where I'm doing interviews with people that I want to grab that we just kind of can't fit into the pod schedule.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
That's enough to just make me want to hang up the podcast mic, to be honest.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
So for an example on that, I talked to Jim Himes, congressman from Connecticut, yesterday about this fight over the Intel Committee chairmanship issue. super interesting and I think important fight in the Republican coalition. If you're interested in that, you can go find it on YouTube. Same thing today. I haven't taped it yet, but I'm about to tape with one of my favorite tax reporters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Wait, hold on. I just want to put a final point on that. So was that non-college white women or all white women?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
So it was not rovember, that's what you're telling me. It turned out not to be rovember.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
The double haters. We talked about this all the time. The Dems did great with the double haters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Yeah, you wrote about that. If people want to read more about that, it's called Democrats' Error Message, looking at what was missed from 2022. I want to dig into that a little deeper because I think there's possibly a different interpretation. I hear what you're saying about how the economy overwhelmed concerns about Trump and Roe. But is that true?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
We're going to get nerdy on the Treasury Secretary hearing with Scotty Besant, which happened yesterday. There's some pretty interesting testimony on that yesterday that I think Democrats, Democratic political consultants in particular are going to have a close ear to when it comes to their interest in extending tax cuts for billionaires, etc. So we'll be doing that this afternoon as well.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
It doesn't seem like the same voters in 2022 tacked back, right? It was a different electorate, right? And maybe is the question, is the types of people that are showing up in a presidential election different? Is a group that's meaningfully different in the types of information they have about about the candidates? They have less information.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Are they more inclined to be moved by cultural kind of issues and cultural mores and worries that the Democrats moved to the left on cultural issues? Right. I mean, because to your point, like the economy is. got better between 22 and 24, not worse, right? And so maybe it's more about the makeup of the electorate. I don't know, but you can analyze this more. What would you think about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
That's moronic, but okay. That's true. That's probably right. That's probably correct as an analysis of what voters think. But FYI, if you have that voter in your life, the governor actually is pretty important to your economic well-being.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I want to say, even if you grant that, right? Even if you grant that the end of this process was going to be some kind of fold because there was no way to actually stop Musk's reign of terror with only 47 senators. Even if you acknowledge that, that there wasn't a real end game for Schumer to stop the horribleness that we are all experiencing, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Yeah, I mean, the principle of this is bad, as you just laid out very well. From a political standpoint, obviously, DC white shoe law firm lawyers aren't exactly the most sympathetic victim of the various victims of the Trump administration's extrajudicial attacks so far in the first two months. But there are...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
actual Americans that need the services of firms like Perkins Coie that are going to be conceivably hurt by this, right? Like it's two of the big law firms. There are only so many lawyers that, you know, have the security clearances that have the experience of the expertise in these types of cases, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I mean, like, don't you think that there's actual harm potentially even beyond just the law firm itself?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
He still had a political imperative to do everything in his power to fight it in the meantime. There are a lot of things that Chuck Schumer could have done besides just folding. He could have held an actual filibuster today on the Senate floor on behalf of veterans' jobs.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Yeah. I mean, to me also, like the treatment of Khalil, the fact that he has been sent across the country, he's being held here in Louisiana. It's like shackled in the ICE detention center when his wife is pregnant. I just, I'm sorry. You know, even if you, thought, and I guess, well, let me just ask you, what do you think of their legal defense?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
They're basically saying that they have a right to do this, that he doesn't have to have actually engaged in any illegal activity, that this is at the jurisdiction or judgment of the Secretary of State. What do you make of that argument?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And in part, that's not what they did here because at least at this point, there's no evidence of that, right? Like, I mean.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
You would think that they would have shared that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
They said specifically, actually, to the free press. They gave a statement to the free press that said that they don't have to. Exactly.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
This is the other thing. What is the rationale for detaining him at all? Forget for sending him across the country to Louisiana to have him detained and put in a detention center, right? If you took them with that word, that they believe, the State Department believes that Marco can decide based on
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
He could have held an actual filibuster on the Senate floor today that demanded that all of the Social Security offices stay open so our seniors can get the money that they paid into the system. He could have said that he's going to hold up all the nominees. Dr. Oz is supposed to be confirmed today.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
you know, whatever the judgment of the secretary of state that a, that a green card holder is a threat to national security. And that person challenges it in court. Like there's no imminent threat. There's no, like, what is the purpose of detain? Like, what are you worried about that? He's going to run away. You want him to run away? Like, why are you detaining him?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Yeah, I was just going to bring this up. Kathy Young wrote about her this week.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
We can do it all day long. And unfortunately, we have much more to do the rest of this day. So we'll leave that part there. So as I mentioned, Trump is asking SCOTUS, there's an emergency appeal. Maybe that's just a charm of a heart. I don't understand what the emergency is to end birthright citizenship. There's no chance this is going anywhere, right? Please tell me there's no chance.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
He could have said he's going to hold up all the nominees as long as Elon Musk continues to illegally fire government workers. He could have shut the government down for a little while until the Republicans met one simple, easy, popular demand. Maybe it was about the VA. Maybe it's about Social Security. Maybe it's about actually appropriating the funds that Congress has approved.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Let me put it this way, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
If they said that Trump executive order. When was the last time you fell out of your chair in shock? I'm just trying to get a sense for how often that happens to you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
All right, let's do some gambling. I'm giving you six and a half Supreme Court justices as rejecting their end to birthright citizenship. Do you think there'll be more than that or less? Am I over under seven? You're expecting seven, too? Still taking over. I'm thinking it's seven minimum.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Well, that's good to know. Speaking of the fifth, I guess, on that list of nine, Amy Coney Barrett. I haven't really talked about this much. And she's ruled against the Trump administration on two, frankly, pretty narrow cases. You can explain them. But they're both 5-4 rulings. And now it seems like she's enemy number one on my MAGA Twitter feed. So maybe I'm forgetting somebody else.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
But you've been following this closer to me. Talk to us about what you see happening with Coney Barrett. Is this a broader shift from her? Or are these like two pretty narrow cases? No, this has been building for a while, Tim.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And that was the previously, like, appropriated $2 billion, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Okay, so. I know, so this is, so for me, as I'm hopeful, I'm always hopeful that people are coming into the light, but, you know, the MAGA folks are really mad at her.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
over this i'm looking at it i'm like like it's kind of a crazy case that it's five to four at all right like the work had been you know you know i mean like it's such a it's such a obvious yeah yeah situation we should pay the people that did the work uh that had already been appropriated and so i look at it i'm like oh maybe is she just you know kind of trying to get a couple of a couple of easy points on the board because they're going to be harder ones ahead where there's going to be more pressure on her and i don't maybe they don't think like that i i don't know that's the cynic in me that looked at it from that perspective
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Donald Trump and Elon Musk are not co-kings. You can make them negotiate. Force them, force Donald Trump to negotiate with you. Bring him to the table. The era of letting Republicans break all the rules, not follow any of the laws, run roughshod over the Democrats, while the Democrats continue to just try to protect every possible existing norm and institution, that era is over.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Okay. I guess what are we seeing from, you know, going forward? Like, what is your sense now? I know we're very early, right? Like, there's only been a couple of these emergency cases that have risen to SCOTUS so far. But like, what's your sense for how they're going to be handling all the things coming down the pike? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And which of those buckets do you expect the court to be the most friendly to what Trump and Musk in most of these cases have been doing?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Yeah, it's interesting. I was listening to Steve Vladek with Crystal, with Bill Crystal on this over the weekend. And one of the points he made is like, it's kind of related. I mean, you think of it as your point about in the USAID case about how some of the money was dispersed to people that weren't actual complainants. Is that like, there's so many.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
If you can't do a class action, if there are 20,000 of these cases, it's not as if there's one ruling and then that is going to apply to everybody else because a lot of this stuff is case by case. He was very bearish just on the fact on, broadly speaking, there'll be specific cases where employees win, employees' rights cases, maybe many cases, but just about the timing and the ability to unroll
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
what Elon and Doge has been doing. What do you make of that?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
That era ended the moment Donald Trump won in 2024. We might not like that. I don't like that. I'm an institutionalist. I wish that we could protect our institutions, but that's not what time it is right now. It is a time for fighting. It is a time for sometimes having to sacrifice some turf, having to sacrifice even certain members of the public interest for the greater good of
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
We're probably going to end up having to pay a bunch of people to not work as well, which is a really key part of the efficiency and budget balancing process. It's having to pay a lot of lawyers to defend your illegal firings, then to have to pay the people that you fired illegally to not work. That's a really efficient use of government resources.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I do, of course. Yeah, she was on the Mona Charon podcast maybe a week ago.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And that's in addition to Doge, it's that you also throw what Bondi is doing, the DOJ. I mean, I guess I'm interested in your view on this. And it sure seems to me like they're gutting big parts of the kind of white collar, kind of criminal enforcement.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And so if you add that on top of what you're talking about, like getting rid of IRS enforcement officials, great news for tax cheats, not exactly great for budget balancing. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And that gets to a theme, Tim. This is the kind of David French optimism that I bring you to the podcast for, you know, because it's hard for me to see the silver lining. Maybe these white collar criminals will get there in 2029.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Which is ominous. If we had JVL on the podcast with us, he would ask me to ask you, doesn't that concern you? Oh, of course it does.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I'm going to make a bold prediction. I think that bet's a little safer than the birthright citizenship bet even.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
of taking these guys on and making them own their chaos. Make them own the chaos they're creating. Don't be a participant in the chaos they're creating. Less than a month ago, I was on here and on Twitter warning that if Schumer and Jeffries weren't up for the fight when it comes to this budget, then there'd be a Democratic Tea Party. And we're already seeing that online right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
We're hoping that it's hubris and confidence and not just an intention to not give up power again.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
We're never going to let them. Yeah. Speaking of a place where there's a one-party state where they never let people take power again, I wanted to get your take on Ukraine. We have a couple other. Here's the state of play as of this morning. Trump sent out this bleat. We had good conversations with President Putin yesterday, and there's a good chance this will come to the end. But all caps.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
At this very moment, thousands of Ukrainian troops are completely surrounded by the Russian military in a very bad and vulnerable position. I have strongly requested President Putin that their lives be spared. We're begging Putin for mercy now as part of the negotiation. What do you make of the state of play?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
You being a genocidal maniac. Actually, I want to get to the Moscow demands in a second, but I just want to reread that sentence one more time in the Trump tweet. I have strongly requested to President Putin that their lives be spared. A strong request. We are in the middle of negotiations with them right now. How about demand? It's so beta. How about demand?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I'm demanding that you stop, that you do not do a massacre in Kursk or else we're going to start giving more weapons. You know what I mean? There's never any situation where leverage is imposed upon Putin. It's like, please, please, Mr. Vlad, be nice to the Ukrainians. Can we do a deal?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Their beady little eyes. Who knows what they could be doing? Crossing the border, that maple syrup.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
There's already discussion of AOC primarying Chuck. There is enraged members of Congress. I've been hearing from them. We've been seeing it publicly. We've been hearing reporters report on it. And to be honest, I expect all this is just the start. Because from my sense from Democratic voters is that they are pissed. They want a fighter. They want someone that's going to actually do something.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I have one more thing on Putin, but just because you brought up the Canadians. I was listening to – I don't have the audio, but I was listening to Mark Carney's speech when he kind of accepted becoming the successor to Trudeau at the Liberal Party. I had the flu this week, and so I was hopped up on meds, and it's truly like – you're listening to something from another universe.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
It's like, it's this Canadian leader talking about how we need to protect ourselves. The Americans are coming for our way of life. You know, we need to plan for a future where they're going to be a, like it's total upside down stuff. And like you have, like a lot of Republicans going along with like 51st state jokes and all this sort of stuff. It's not a joke anymore, Tim. And he's a technocrat.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
So, so the tone was not, you know, exactly militaristic, but the words were like the kind of words you hear from Estonia talking about, talking about Russia. And it was like indistinguishable from what you would hear from Eastern Europe, a Baltic country talking about Russia. It's just, it is just crazy. It's really quick.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
One more thing on Russia, the demands for the Washington post, their current demands, territory, Crimea, Sevastopol, Kyrgyzstan, Donetsk, Luhansk, the no foreign peacekeepers at all, return of diplomatic missions seized, that we had seized, sanctions relief. I mean, you compared this to what the Korean armistice actually looked like, and it's nothing like it. No, no.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And so a new order is coming. A new leadership is coming. To the Democratic Party. It's a question of when. Because this thing, look, even if Chuck Schumer did all the things I said, does anybody think that he's a man for the moment right now? Does anybody think that he could have executed on that maximum pressure strategy? I don't know anybody who does.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I don't think we've actually talked, and you were a Jag, about what Hegseth did as far as the firing of the Jags and what that kind of means. I just would like to kind of pick your brain on that and see what your reaction was, what the potential implications are.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
This thing can't wait for a primary until 2028. The Democrats need leaders that are up for this moment right now. The time for Chuck Schumer to pass the torch is right now. And I think that you're going to increasingly be hearing that even from his own colleagues. We're going to have much more on this next week. We'll see how the vote shakes out tonight ahead of the shutdown deadline.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Well, I don't think he sees any kind of legal oversight over what the military should do, basically. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
We already did DEI, so we can do this quick, but I would be remiss not to mention a task and purpose article out about Arlington Cemetery.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Arlington Cemetery's public website has scrubbed dozens of pages on grave sites and educational materials, include histories of prominent Black, Hispanic, and female service members, along with educational material and dozens of Medal of Honor recipients and maps of prominent grave sites of Marine Corps veterans and other services.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
cemetery officials confirmed that these pages were unpublished to meet recent orders by trump and hegseth and this is insane like somebody wants to go to arlington cemetery and you know they had resources was like i want to see the most prominent you know women you know battlefield officers and i want to look at the map so i can go to their graves and honor them and like now we've we've erased that
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
We can't honor black soldiers. I guess they were suckers and losers. I don't know. But it is crazy. That's America first. That's patriotism now. It's pretty sick stuff. All right. I want to close with just some brief economy talk. The tariffs – I feel like this is right in your wheelhouse a couple areas.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
You know, it's going after economic conservatism, but it is coming from a former Republican congressman that is now a Liberty vice president. So, you know, somebody who should really understand faith in the Bible. Let's listen to Dave Brat give us a little religious lesson on why these tariffs are great.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
It's not like a deep cut, actually. It's one thing, you know, you can let them loose if they, you know, if they miss something from Paul to the Ephesians, you know, if there was an Old Testament deep cut that they had forgot. This was, it's kind of, you know, one of the kindergarten level Christian theology. Oh, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
In the meantime, I want to bring in a guest to talk about all of the illegality that these guys need to be fighting. He's the opinion columnist for the New York Times. He's also co-host of the legal podcast Advisory Opinions. He served as an army lawyer in the JAG Corps during the Iraq War. It's David French. Hey, David. Welcome back to the show. Tim, always great to see you. All right.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
All right. The economy itself also seems very shaky. I'm curious your take, but I want to close before we get your final word on this. I want to hear from the vice president that he had an interesting explanation about where he thinks we are economically with Laura Ingram last night.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I have to admit, I'm a little bit confused. I don't know how the fundamentals can be strong when... The Biden administration ruined the economy. And we're in a Biden recession. And now they've only been in for two months. And every economic indicator has gotten worse since Biden left. But yet the fundamentals are strong. I don't know what the fundamentals are that he's referring to there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
The Spanish stock market is crushing it. That halcyon place of free markets and economic growth, Spain. They're crushing us right now in the market.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
We've got advisory opinions legal potpourri here to start with. I'm going to let you pick. Free speech issues. Khalil, Georgetown. We've got Trump asking to send birthright citizenship today. Perkins Coy. We've got Amy Coney Barrett. Mag has pissed at her. Are there any legal remedies to what's happening with Elon and Doge illegally firing people?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And totally unnecessary and his fault. Randall, to me, it's like America is the wonder of the world. It's the wonder of Trump that he's managed to have this much of a negative impact in six weeks. And it's crazy.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And he's also saying we're going to stop giving the funds for the chips plants. We're not doing any manufacturing stuff. I keep saying this, like you can imagine a different Trump term where he's just out there doing ribbon cuttings and getting rich guys to say they're going to invest in factories and places. And it's like he's not doing any of that anyway. All right. I lied.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
I had one last thing for you. You looked at the standings lately. I have. We might be staring down a second round matchup between the Grizzlies and the Nuggets. I have been looking at the standings and, and let me just say, I don't love that matchup for the Grizzlies. As long as we avoid the Timberwolves in the first round, I'd be okay with the Grizzlies matchup, but okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Before we get to our guest, I got to get something off my chest about Chuck Schumer. I bet you all do, too. Here's the state of play as we tape this on Friday morning. The Senate will vote this afternoon to overcome a filibuster of the House's continuing resolution, which funds the federal government through September 30th.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
We don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but we're just going to keep our eye on it. And maybe, I don't know, maybe, maybe I'll pop up to Memphis or maybe a live stream, maybe a live stream together. We'll see how it goes.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
We'll figure out. We'll keep an eye on it. David French, thank you so much as always for coming on the podcast. Everybody else, have a wonderful March weekend. We'll see you back here on Monday with Bill Crystal. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
We've got the Alien Enemies Act of 1798 coming soon. Bye. What has your hackles up the most out of that list? Let's just start with the wheelhouse.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
It really is wild. And I mean, look, I know you and I are aligned on this. So some of the European free speech stuff makes me very, very queasy. I'm happy that we have the First Amendment here. But these guys, it's just so phony. And the hypocrisy on it is so striking. I know that you wrote specifically about the Georgetown case.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
We talked about Khalil yesterday, but I haven't really gone that deep on the Georgetown case. So why don't we start with a case is by Case is a really big overstatement to call it that. But even still, again, the fact that it is the acting U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
attorney threatening a private school is pretty jarring and is the type of thing that back in the day when you were a conservative in good standing was in your wheelhouse and in everybody that you associated with's wheelhouse, you would have thought.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
No Sharia law, yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Schumer announced yesterday that he would support not the bill, but that there's an assumption that Schumer saying that he will support cloture on this bill will unlock the requisite number of Democrats, seven Democrats or eight Democrats, depending on Rand Paul that are needed. to bring this to the floor, and then presumably Republicans would pass it without any Democratic votes.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Left isn't even right. Who knows? We don't even have a spectrum anymore. Just any minimal acknowledgement. The type of stuff that schools were just trying to do when they were making sure that the curriculum was not just all old white guys. That was not even really a partisan kind of thing initially. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
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S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
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S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Here's the most generous spin on this before I start ranting.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
Go to SelectQuote.com slash Bulwark today to get started at SelectQuote.com slash Bulwark.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
The most generous spin I've heard is that getting into a shutdown makes Trump's, Musk's job of dismantling the government easier, firing people easier, that it wouldn't achieve anything on a policy standpoint, that there was no real plan to end it, and that it would both hurt the government workers and potentially hurt the Democrats' political standing.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
The highest profile instance this week is the case of Mahmoud Khalil, which we talked about a bunch yesterday with Sam Stein. But I'm wondering where you fall on this, because obviously there's a free speech element to it, of course. Is there a First Amendment element to it? It's, I guess, maybe a little grayer. But how do you kind of assess the case?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And Perkins Coie, and by the way, up until this past week, and I think even on this podcast, I've been pronouncing this Perkins Cole for like 20 years. I don't know, there's just something about my eyes where it just looks like it should be Cole. And like, I don't see the little spot, you know, between the line and the dot. I think Bill Kristol said Perkins Coie.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
And I was like, what are you talking about? And he's like, yeah, that's what it
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
called okay anyway i think you're on morning joe on this i just i just want to have you kind of elaborate on this case yeah because you know the interesting thing here is you're saying is there have been many cases in the past where you know people are suing the government saying essentially you know this is unlawful targeting of a private business for political purposes etc etc this seems to be the rare instance where the where the administration is saying no yeah
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1000: David French: Trump Admits He's Violating the Constitution
No, that's what we're doing. We are targeting them. This is political targeting, and we're trying to silence and punish a foe for political reasons.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
So the public integrity division, and there's got to be some long-term, at least short-term consequences to the fact that the public corruption unit is now emptied out. I don't know. It doesn't seem like Pam Bondi is going to be quick to the draw to be replacing people in that division. You worked in the building. I'm just kind of wondering what kind of... stuff will be going unmonitored now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
And also corrupt, prominent black criminals as well, turns out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
I want to get in a little bit more to this Emil Bove. Is that really how you say his name? It's such a pretentious way to pronounce the name. I might just start pronouncing it Bove. I love it. For the rest of that. That is my I am Spartacus moment. I'm just going to mispronounce his name intentionally going forward. Maybe we'll call you Timay. Timay. Timothay. Timothay. He is emerging as kind of
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
one of the main nefarious characters of trump 2.0 yeah sure he was the one in the aforementioned kash patel in the whistleblower report i mean we're three weeks in we're four we're not even a full four weeks in and he's already been in two whistleblower reports named specifically so This one person, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
The whistleblower in the Patel situation said that it was Emil Bove that was telling FBI agents that it was Stephen Miller and Kash Patel that were calling for the purge.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
And now we have Sassoon saying he was the one that's doing this quid pro quo, allegedly, with Eric Adams and telling people to confiscating the notes that were taken, you know, because you're not supposed to take notes on a criminal conspiracy, as we know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Interesting. Muzzles. Maybe look into muzzles. The other thing is, like, in his memo about rationalizing, you know, ending the prosecution of Adams, he compares it to the Victor Boot prisoner swap, which is... An insane comparison, right? Because I'm criticizing the Biden administration for doing this deal for a Russian arms dealer in exchange for Brittany Griner.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
And so that gives me justification to do a quid pro quo as if Eric Adams is the Russian arms dealer in this analogy. So anyway, talk to us about this guy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Yeah, my This Is Not A Quid Pro Quo shirt has people asking a lot of questions that are answered by my shirt. So is there anything else we should know about this guy? Yeah, there is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
I'm blown away by the depoliticized Justice Department. They really are just, you know, just going right by the book. All right. Lastly, what now? I mean, this is one case, right? But it certainly is indicative of sort of what's what's to come for the Trump 2.0 Justice Department.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
If we're going to be suffering throughout all this, come hang out with us. Subscribe to Bulwark Takes. We'll be seeing you around. Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. Today is the 7th anniversary of the Parkland tragedy. I hate that we only discuss these horrors in like the couple days after they happen and then move on. So more to come on that next week.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
What are the other U.S. attorneys thinking right now? I mean, it has to have also an impact on that, on recruitment, on other people in their jobs. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Well, thank you so much for pinch hitting today, Andrew. It's good to see you again twice this month. It feels like we're going to get to hang out a lot, unfortunately, going forward. So very much appreciate it. Everybody check out his sub stack and his podcast, Main Justice. We'll be seeing you soon. Okay. Take care. All right. Up next, my friend, Michael Weiss.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
All right, we're back with friend of the show, editor of The Insider, a Russia-focused independent media outlet, former investigative reporter for CNN. He's the author of ISIS, Inside the Army of Terror, and has a forthcoming book about the GRU, Russia's intel agency. It's Michael Weiss. How are you doing, man? I'm well. How are you? Lots happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
We had a bilateral press conference with Modi yesterday, as well as an Oval Office press conference about the... negotiation, if we want to call it that, with Russia. We're getting some mixed signals from Trump and Hegseth and Vance on this matter. And so I just, I want to get into the details of what we heard at the press conference.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
But we've put a link to Fred Guttenberg's Orange Ribbons for Jamie charity in the show notes. Please go ahead and... Give him a little love and support and everybody else that was affected by that tragedy. But today we are jam-packed with news. In segment two, we've got Michael Weiss on Trump's negotiation or submission to Putin and Xi, whatever you want to call it. But first, he's back already.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
But I'll start with this question that was posed by Matt Pierce. What is the foreign policy of the US government right now?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
But then Trump basically kind of concurred with it also. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Let's just real quick bring it to J.D. Vance. The funniest part of the Hegseth conversation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
presser for me everyone would be dumber for having listened to it so we're not going to pull the full audio of this but people can google it if they want um he was asked like you've told us what concessions that you're asking for from ukraine what concessions are you asking for from russia and his answer was like i'm gonna i'm gonna i'm gonna mr trump strong and like he goes on for two minutes with nothing because he he has he had nothing right like there wasn't even a fig leaf
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
We've got a lot of relevant news for him. It's Andrew Weissman, former FBI general counsel, former Justice Department prosecutor, chief of the criminal division in the Eastern District of New York. He's now co-host of the MSNBC podcast, Maine Justice. He's got a newsletter on Substack. We got Weiss Weissman. If only we had Alan Weisselberg. We could have the full gamut. Panoply. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
I'm curious what you think Putin ultimately wants. But before we get Michael Weiss' take, I want to listen to what Trump thinks and whether he trusts that Putin is dealing with him in good faith. This was him yesterday in the Oval Office.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Thank you for returning so soon. We're in a little bit of a pinch, and the news is just screaming for you, given what happened yesterday at DOJ. Six senior Justice Department officials resigned. Rather than comply with the order to drop the Eric Adams investigation, they include basically the entire public corruption unit at DOJ. Who needs that? Plus Kevin Driscoll from the criminal division.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Trust him on this subject.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Because we have such a good relationship. Totally preposterous, almost ridiculous to even take it seriously if he wasn't the president of the United States. But I am curious what you think Putin wants out of this current negotiation. Because I think it's a little opaque, right? And it kind of is related to your point about what... about the weakening on the battlefield, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
I mean, I think that there was some thinking that maybe he didn't even really want a peace deal, you know, when Russia was pressing ahead. But maybe he kind of does want a temporary pause now. I don't know. What do you suspect? Do some Kremlinology for me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
You can also probably do some back channel deals with him because Witkoff's son is the co-owner of the Trump crypto scheme with the Trump kids. So the Trump kids and the Witkoff kids are together on their cryptocurrency. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
That's about as close as you can get. I mean, there isn't a great example in recent time where we have a president who appointed his business partner's dad to a special envoy position, right? I mean, it's pretty similar, actually, to the Russian side.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
And then most notably, the U.S. attorney from the Southern District of New York, Danielle Sassoon. So what the fuck happened? Let's start there, Andrew.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Well, it's certainly more than Europe. Let's listen, because I thought this was telling also from yesterday. And this is, I'm curious, your view on how the Europeans are processing all this, because he was asked about working with Europe in these negotiations. I think about, I don't remember if I mentioned it, but he's floated the idea there's a spring summit in Saudi Arabia.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
So home turf for Putin and the negotiations. And so the question was about whether he'd be working with Europe on that. And his answer is pretty gobsmacking. Let's listen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
The question again was, are you going to be working with Europe on the negotiation? The answer there was trashing Europe and then reiterating that he had a great talk with Putin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
There were a couple of other noteworthy statements from the two pressers. I'm just going to lump them all together and get your take. Trump wants Russia back in the G7, apparently. You referenced earlier that he said that he wants to meet with Putin and Xi and talk about cutting our military budgets in half, all of them. He went...
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
on a pretty negative tirade about Taiwan during one of the press conferences and about how they're stealing our jobs. Take all that together, and I think it paints a pretty clear picture of what kind of world Trump wants to leave everybody. But I'm wondering what you think about all that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Never seen Bibi smile so wide.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Rare earth minerals, championship belts, hot blondes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
It's comforting to know that one of the co-founders of the Estee Lauder Cosmetics Company is leading our foreign policy. But if that doesn't leave you with any chill down your spine. Did you see the other special advisor who is traveling with J.D. Vance? I think he was on two trips, actually. Two of the overseas trips. Which one is this? This is my pal, Pizzagate Jack Posobiec. See this? Oh, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Yeah, Pizzagate Jack. You might remember him from being at the pizza restaurant in D.C. where people were saying there was the frazzle drip happening in the basement where there was no basement, kind of live streaming from there, trying to get to the truth, get to the bottom of it. I mean, he just has a massive hit list of conspiracies, mongering. And I guess he's in the inside circle.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
It's him, the crypto... friends and the Estee Lauder guy. And this is sort of who's the brain trust.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
He literally said, I don't care what happens to Ukraine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
It's kind of like bluffing, but turning over your two twos. You know, and also bluffing so people can see what you got. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Let's send people into the weekend with some green shoots. And I guess just a brief update. Can you tell us what's happening with the aviary in your home? Are you doing this from inside? Yeah, are you doing this from inside a birdhouse at the Central Park Zoo? Or where are we?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
That's lovely. We'll just have to bring the budgies on to the next visit. Thanks so much, man. You got it. All right, everybody. We'll be seeing you back here on Monday. Appreciate Andrew Weissman and Michael Weiss, the law firm of Weiss and Weissman. And we'll have as good of a weekend as you can. We'll be talking to you soon. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
It was the most remarkable part of a remarkable letter. I mean, it's like this three-page letter, and then she ducks into footnote number one. Oh, by the way, Mr. Beauvais admonished a member of my team who took notes during that meeting and directed the collection of those notes at the meeting's conclusion. It's like, this is why you always read the footnotes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
That's where the good stuff is happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Could you explain that to me for kind of a novice in this? So why does somebody else have to take it up to close it? Right. Like, why can't I mean, I guess Trump could just pardon him to the DOJ. Why does it have to be a specific person within the DOJ to shut down the case? Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Hey, y'all, I hope you're listening to the Bullwark Podcast with me every day. But as we're learning in the first few weeks of the Trump administration, a lot of crazy shit can happen in 24 hours. And stuff can happen after I tape. Or stuff can be really crazy and important, but not make it into the hour that I have with you guys. I don't know. Here's some examples from the last week.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Couldn't Beauvais or Blanche just withdraw the prosecution? Couldn't they take it on? I mean, did they have to be confirmed, I guess?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Got it. Okay, so much more to get into here. We have, as we're, I think, going to a lot during the next four years, have some heroes and villains morality plays. Let's talk about Danielle Sassoon for a second. She's not... You know, she's not some deep state lib like Andrew Weissman. She isn't.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Well, congrats. We have one of those paintings, like one of those dumb dog poker paintings, and it'll be you and Bill Barr and the cave and all memorialized forever. Sassoon was appointed by Trump. She's a Federalist Society longtime member. She clerked for Reagan appointee Judge Harvey Wilkinson on the Fourth Circuit. Then she clerked for Antonin Scalia, not exactly a squish.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Maybe Elon Musk will try to shut down an entire federal agency. Or Trump will try to turn a foreign country into the Riviera of the Middle East. Or J.D. Vance will tweet out that saying, I am a racist is not a cause for firing in this administration. When that stuff's happening, and I have a little five or ten minute rant that I want to get out. Thanks for watching.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
She was awarded the FBI Director's Award for Outstanding Criminal Investigation last year. It is noteworthy. that she would do this given that background, right? Like you could imagine, not to impugn your business there, Andrew, but you could imagine a prosecutor who likes the cameras, who maybe doesn't like Donald Trump and sees an opportunity here to be whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Like you could imagine somebody making that political choice. Like this is not it. Like this is somebody that has been a down the line, you know, by the book prosecutor, right? who was appointed by and served for Republicans or conservative justices, just saying absolutely not three weeks after she was sworn back in. And that's pretty remarkable.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
Well, maybe part of the reason why it sounds Pollyannish and people are skeptical of all this is just because we've seen so little principle out of the political wing, right? In the morning newsletter I sat in this morning and I wrote about the Kash Patel lies and
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
And we talked about this earlier in the week with Carol Lennig, just his bald face lies to senators about his involvement in that purge of the FBI that you referenced, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
And we see no, not a single Republican senator, not a single Republican elected official, not a single staffer who cares about federal law enforcement saying, no, like we should not confirm somebody that is going to lie to our face about the politicized manner in which he purged the FBI. Like we see none of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann and Michael Weiss: Valentine's Massacre
And so, you know, the behavior Sassoon and the other people that resigned just does stand in stark contrast to what we've seen from the political class.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
We have to get our we have to get our chuckles, the absurdity of this when we can. I do want your take on this because Voice of America, which he was which Trump had nominated her to run. Domestic folks might not just really even understand the remit or the importance of that. So I am curious your take on fake news, Carrie Lake running the Voice of America potentially.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
She has journal. I mean, she has technically, she has a local TV anchor.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I think it's three and three.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I'm not that optimistic about the board. If Marco Rubio is the tying vote, I don't know, maybe we will have Kerry Lake. It will be a good investment for the Russians, you know, to then having the head of the American VOA also being sympathetic to their messaging. The NATO Secretary General this week gave a speech, Mark Rutte, issuing a warning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
He said, among other things, we are not ready for what is coming our way. In four to five years, the Russia economy is on war footing. You know, obviously, with your husband, the government officials in Poland, talk to me about kind of the view from our NATO allies here in December 2024.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Yeah, it's interesting. It is that conventional wisdom outside that some deal is coming, but it's now my colleague Bill Kristol, Michael Weiss, now you. This podcast is the home for skepticism of Putin's interest in a deal because everybody has echoed your point of view on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I want to talk about another news story related to the Russian desired sphere of influence over in Central and Eastern Europe. And that's a story out of Romania, which I kind of have mixed views on. I guess the basics of it, and you can correct me or add more color to this, was that there was Russian interference in this election, particularly via TikTok and via influencers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
More accommodating, maybe. The best spin you could put on this, right, is that these rich guys are saying, okay, four more years of this, maybe we can butter him up and feed on his ego and get some stuff out of it, and then we're done with this guy. That's probably their calculation, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
There was money in the Romanian elections that went against the laws. And so... they called off the election essentially. Like I said, I have mixed views on it, but I'd like to hear your perspective.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
So kind of like a Ceausescu meets RFK Jr. type candidate.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
My daughter will be devastated to hear that as a big carbonated water consumer.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Obviously, some of us feel like the risks maybe are greater than that, but how do you assess that and what the You know, what may be a more effective way to deal with a aspiring soft autocrat would be?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
So challenging, because as I'm just listening to you describe the situation, instinctively, my view is this is bad. Nullifying an election because of disinformation leads to just myriad other problems and loss of trust. On the other hand, it's like... what is the punishment for breaking local election law? It's like, what is an appropriate punishment, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
In this case, the candidate hadn't won yet, but imagine a case where they can, right? Like then they're controlling the government. What is the balance between this decision to nullify the election and, as you said, our American Vegas rules politics where anything goes?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
And it's also just to be fair, it's like hard to imagine. Look, it's not like America hasn't tried to involve ourselves in other countries elections before in the past. Like it's hard to imagine like this situation where Western Europe or European country is like, Oh, we're going to nullify all the elections because the Americans were putting their thumb on the scale. Right. You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Like it's hard to, starting to think about like a way to adjudicate it consistently.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I want to move on to the Middle East before we lose you. You wrote about the collapse of the Assad regime, the collapse of autocratic regimes tend to happen gradually and then suddenly, slowly, and then all at once. You led the story in a nod to Hemingway.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
You also wrote on one of these social networks, I forget where I saw you writing this, it's a bad day for the international network of dictators who live in similar palaces. So the video of the Assad palace being stormed. Just wondering your thoughts on what happened in Syria and the ramifications.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I want to close with one tough question I've been noodling in my head. This has all been heavy material, but similar to the Romania question, this one is one that's hard for me to see clearly the right path, but over the past year, God, more at this point.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Many in sort of the pro-democracy kind of space have had issues with Bibi and his corruption and the way that he has had some Trumpian and Orban-ish behavior. But if you look at the past year now and the weakening of Iran and the weakening of Hezbollah and Hamas, almost elimination of Hezbollah, Do you look at that situation any differently?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I mean, do you assess Bibi any differently than maybe you would have a year or two years ago?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
It's very well put. I'm glad I asked you. I've been noodling on this one in my head. You're bringing some clarity to three points that I think I... fully concur on all three. Well, Anne Applebaum, I think there's going to be much to discuss around the world in the coming years, so I hope you'll be coming back to the Borg podcast often.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I guess we had happy news with Assad, but maybe with some other happier news in the future.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
It was beautiful. The video with Clarissa Ward, I'll put it in the show notes. People haven't seen it. It's really heartwarming. He was such a depraved bastard. So anyway, getting rid of him. And I hope he enjoys the winters in Russia. Anne, thank you so much. We'll be seeing you soon. Everybody else, we'll be back here as always on Monday with Bill Kristol. See you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Fine. Fine. We're fine. We're here. We're doing fine. I've got to be more precise in the opening greetings, I think, given the nature of affairs. I want to start with the seductive lure of authoritarianism. Because it's more seductive than maybe I'd even anticipate it. Domestically, we've got a series of rich people who have pre-surrendered to the incoming regime.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
The tough thing to figure out is who exactly are the naive businessmen that think that this is going to help them and who are the ones that are on board with the dismantling of that system and the dismantling of that trust. And to that point, Peter Thiel, we know which side he's on. He was on with Piers Morgan the other day. And I just want to play one clip from that interview.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
The Ancien Regime there, the liberal order is over. And I think in Peter Thiel's mind, it's going to be replaced by the autocratic order, maybe the techno-feudal order, I don't know, of him and Elon and Marc Andreessen with Donald Trump as their puppet. Just wondering your thoughts about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
And to Peter Thiel if you looked at his face for the YouTube viewers. He's trying to pretend like he's not part of the ancien, but he's looking pretty ancien too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Bezos and Zuck have donated a million to the inauguration. Mark Benioff, who was a resistance CEO for the first time around at Salesforce, went on Maria Bartiromo's show, Maria Bartiromo's Coup Hour, and said, I feel that when we elect a new politician, we have to absolutely support them. This is a moment where we are turning the page. It's an opportunity for a new chapter.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Yeah, I guess I would. I don't think Peter Thiel is listening to me, but I guess I would caution him. You don't really know what exactly is going to replace the current liberal order. You know, excuse me from being a defender of the status quo. But it was funny to me that later in that interview, peers asked him about the Brian Thompson murder. Peter was like, I've never seen a stutter.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
He had like 25 seconds of stuttering before he finally said, I think we should use words to settle our disputes. It's like, well, when the liberal order, when the ancien liberal order gets overthrown, it might be a feudal techno oligarchy, but it might also be something else that they don't like.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
On the corruption front, we also had Trump in the Middle East. In our newsletter this morning, Bill Kristol and Andrew Egger write about how Trump's son, Eric, the executive vice president of the Trump Organization, made an announcement about the unveiling of a new Trump Tower in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Yesterday, the New York Times wrote about the dividing line between Trump's family business interests and Trump's power. Eric Trump was in Abu Dhabi celebrating his dad's move to unleash crypto. as the family helps launch and profit from a new crypto investment. Obviously, we know about Jared Kushner's investments in Saudi. I want to play a little bit from Chris Murphy and get your reaction to it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
You have covered all of this from the European perspective. What's happening with our domestic oligarchs here?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
And Trump's insight on all of this was, If you just get through, if you just power through the round of bad press or the initial investigation or attacks from the counterparty, and there's no impact on anyone's lives, then eventually people will get over it. This is related to Steve Bannon flood the zone with shit. As a tabloid guy, he knows this. He went through the scandal cycles before.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Couldn't be more delighted to be here today with a staff writer at The Atlantic. Her books include Autocracy, Inc., The Dictators Who Want to Run the World, and Twilight of Democracy, The Seductive Lure of Authoritarianism, as well as the Pulitzer Prize-winning Gulag, A History. It's Anne Applebaum. Welcome back, Anne.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
It's like if you survive it and get out the other side, then you can continue to press on. And like in the past, politicians had folded when they would get New York Times investigations about their family business, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I hadn't gotten to Tiffany's father-in-law, but since you mentioned it, I do feel like I should at least read the headline for people if they had missed it. Trump's Middle East advisor pick, who's Tiffany's father-in-law, is a small-time truck salesman. He had lied. It's like a George Santos situation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
He had acted like he was a billionaire dealmaker, but he has a tiny stake in an African truck company. Let's be honest, what most people really want from the holidays is to see their favorite people more often. Favorite people. Maybe not everybody, but you want to see your favorite people more often.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
And that's why this year, the best gift you can give, besides a plane ticket for all your friends to some foreign country, is an Aura digital picture frame. Named the number one digital photo frame by Wirecutter, Aura frames are incredibly smart and easy to use, allowing you to upload unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Plus, you can order the frame online and preload it with photos and videos using the Aura app, so it's ready to go right out of the box. We're going to be talking about all week going into Christmas because, look, Christmas, you want to be able to bring a little joy into people's lives. I don't know about you. I'm grinding right now. I'm on the present grind. I'm trying to come up with good ideas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I've got a couple of good ideas. You know, and then for some people, you're like, I'm struggling. I'm struggling. If you're struggling with somebody, particularly if it's an aunt or a grandparent or somebody that you don't get to see enough, Aura Digital Frames are the answer.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
So, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames by using promo code BULLWORK at checkout. That's A-U-R-A-FRAMES.COM, promo code BULLWORK. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. You mentioned Carrie Lake.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
We love Amanda, all caps Amanda. So anyway, Jody Arrington, who is the budget committee chair, we're talking to Brandon Boyle, who's a Democratic ranking member. Jody Arrington is a Republican member. It was interesting. There's a punch bowl report out from behind the scenes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
of the kind of negotiations that are happening over this tax bill and reconciliation and how they're going to fund everything. And I guess Arrington showed some slides to other members of some of his proposals that included increasing the corporate tax rate, which made people very upset. I guess that was the only thing that made people upset.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
It also included deep, deep cuts to Medicaid and other, you know, getting rid of some of corporate write-offs, some corporate taxes. The nuts of it is that Arrington at least is acting like he cares about our debt right now. And there are some members of the House Republican Conference who have made their bones. Chip Roy's one. I think maybe do you ever work? Were you and Chip on the same staff?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So your old boss, Chip Roy, is kind of the top of this, right? There are still some OG Tea Party people in there and a handful of new people who have been running on debt and deficit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And they have this challenge coming up this year where if you extend the Trump tax cuts, it's going to be $4 or $5 trillion more added to the debt the way they did the budgeting with all the expirations from the 2017 tax cut. And so these guys... they either got to put up or shut up on whether they care about this. And if so, there have to be offsets.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
We're more about the saints than we are about the Bible verses. But the evangelicals, they're very Bible focused, as you know. And I was wondering if Karen had Ephesians 6.13 in her mind yesterday. For our struggle is not against the flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of the dark world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
The only way to do that is going to be to increase taxes. Arrington proposed a corporate tax rate or maybe not extend it on rich people. I find that very hard to believe that the Republicans will do that. Or have these massive cuts with Medicaid being on the top of the list. And you might want to mention that there are a lot of MAGA Americans that are on Medicaid, I should note. So, I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I was just wondering kind of with your former Tea Party hat on, like what you think about the coming fight and whether you think any of your former brethren will actually hold the line on this or if they end up just, you know, doing king of debt part two.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Didn't you see that he mentioned on Mark Penn's podcast? I didn't even know Mark Penn had a podcast. Very low-rated podcast. Elon went on it. Let's touch some about Mark Penn. And Elon admitted on that that the doge is not going to be able to find the $2 trillion. So if the tax cut extends to $4 or $5 trillion, depending on who you talk to.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And Elon is already admitting that maybe one is the most you could find for cuts for Doge. The only way to make the math work is to jack up the debt more, to raise taxes, or to have very steep cuts to entitlements. Those are the three options.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
We'll put on the full armor of God so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground. And after you've done everything, stand firm then with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes with the gospel of peace. She just turned her cheek. That was it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Well, they've changed it one way, actually. Their majority is even smaller. Yeah. And, like, literally, it's... I mean, Tom Massey, who doesn't give an F, and he really doesn't. Like, if there's one person in the House that could not care less about whether Donald Trump gets this... There's, like, a good Massey...
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And it is. There's $36 trillion. So that's it. I mean, they're in a much bigger pickle than I think that a lot of people realize. And all it takes is two of them. Your old buddy Chip, so you should start texting him again. And Thomas Massey. And they can cripple the whole damn thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
All right, guys, I got to tell you, it is chilly here in the South. We've had a cold streak. It was down to, I don't know, 41 degrees or something yesterday. And so in that kind of weather, a good hoodie is essential. And I don't know about you, but sometimes it's tough to find a hoodie that lasts season after season. And I'm happy to recommend...
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I think my favorite hoodie from our sponsor, American Giant. The American Giant Classic Full Zip Hoodie is made to last a lifetime. You can count on it to bring you comfort and warmth year after year. Slate Magazine called it the greatest hoodie ever made. And from cotton to zipper, it's made right here in the USA. Tyler, my husband actually had a...
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Had an American Giant hoodie before their response or way back. And he couldn't have been more pumped when he found out that American Giant was now supporting the pod. So we can get some new hoodies in, you know, refresh it, get some different colors, get some different weights. And he had the heavyweight. We tried out the lightweight. Just got one in yesterday. And boy, it is cozy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Got to tell you, I also tried out some of the pants, some little khaki chinos from American Giant. I'm not a big khaki man, but I got one of those colored chinos. You know, to just kind of wear. It's really probably going to be more for next fall, you know, when I want to get into Al Gore earth tones. And I was pretty happy about those. I tried them on yesterday, too. So go check it out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So it's not just about the hoodies. American Giant makes staples that are anything but basic, like the premium Slub Crew T, No BS High Rise Pant, and Slim Roughneck Pant. So this season, snag the hoodie that will bring you comfort for life. the American giant classic full zip and save 20% off your first order at American dash giant.com.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
When you use code bulwark at checkout, that's 20% off your first order at American dash giant.com code bulwark. I want to talk about Greenland and some of that stuff and some of the bigger picture, but I want to put it into this context. The Gulf of Trump, Gulf of America. My Gulf of Trump idea where we kind of sell it to him in exchange for something, that hasn't really taken off yet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
She put on her breastplate of righteousness and said, I'm not going to buddy up to you, Donald, like Barack Obama is. I am going to let you know with my eyes that you are evil. And good on you, Karen Pence. What do you think about that? Am I overthinking it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
It's just a licensing agreement in exchange for, I don't know. My buddy sent me a link. There's some Norwegians.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
to think that they can... I'm going to F this up so scientists don't get mad at me in the comments, but you can take a ship and put bubbles into the Gulf when you see a hurricane is coming and the bubbles would mess with the water temperature to such a degree that it would calm the hurricane down. Send it somewhere else? Send it back out to sea.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So maybe in exchange for the Gulf of Trump, the Norwegians can license it and we can get the bubble solution. You never know. I don't know. Art of the deal. But all of this is under this rubric. You posted onto Blue Sky. Actually, one more note of personal privilege before we get to your Blue Sky skeet. People are like, why aren't you on Blue Sky?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I'm never going to get onto Blue Sky minute by minute. I'm just not going to do it. But I would like to be able to at least occasionally engage, share some of my material. Here's the problem. When Blue Sky first started, like a week after it started, somebody was like, you should get on this. And so I got on. And I have an account. You tagged me, apparently. It has a lot of followers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I have no idea what the password is. I've tried all of the passwords that I've always used. I'm not going to tell anybody what they are, but I've tried all of them. I've emailed Blue Sky support a couple of times. And I can't get into the account.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And so if anybody works for Blue Sky and listens to this, wants to help me get into the account, then maybe I could engage with my 100,000 followers or whatever it is. So that's the answer for people wondering why I haven't skied it. Anyway, you were telling your, you know, do we have a term for Blue Sky fans? You know, like believers for Justin Bieber? I don't know. The carpenters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Anyway, we'll think about that. You were telling your carpenters that they are coming on the pod and asking them what if they had any suggestions for topics. And one of them wrote, how do we spend the next four years focused on the real issues and not reacting to every Trump troll and misdirection? You said you have a lot of thoughts on this, so I want to hear them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
She had to wash her hair. She was supposed to sit next to Trump. I would have also had a scheduling conflict. It's a busy day, bed, bath, and beyond. Got to go to Home Depot. We got to do some grocery shopping. You know, I got to do some returns. We got some presents we didn't like over Christmas. I just can't make it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Well, and the inverse of that, if these tech oligarchs decide to do only promoted speech of their own stuff, right? Like, you know, I mean, because Elon pretends to be a free speech guy, meanwhile, forcing people to see his propaganda in the For You page and elevating all pro-MAGA stuff and, you know, tamping down, you know, critics.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I'm curious then, I have a couple of specific examples I want to go through, but at the broadest level, I'm curious then, as we look to like, for example, next week, we'll be having confirmation hearings, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So I assume, but maybe I'm wrong, that you guys are going to be monitoring the ones that have the biggest potential impact on protecting the civic space is going to be Bondi, the AG, Patel. I don't think we have a hearing date yet for Patel. Anything else that jumps out to you?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So let's kind of talk about what that exactly looks like in the context of, I think the questioner was probably asking, like, okay, because you get this a lot. What are we focused on? We're getting distracted. He's distracting us, right? And, you know, the most obvious distraction effort this week was Gulf of Trump, Gulf of America. We're going to take Greenland.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Canada's going to be the 51st state. He brought that up again at the press conference yesterday. I think that there are a lot of people that would say, looking at the rubric you just laid out, that that stuff is frivolous. You should ignore it. I think I have a little bit of a different view that's also just developing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I don't know that anyone has a perfect answer to all this, but I'm curious what your response is under that construct.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
It was like 2017 again with him. He did the shoulder shrug, you know, like the little tepid smile, meek smile.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, I agree with that. So here's my... Here's how I kind of divide all this to your point of there's different rules for different people in civic society. I think that your point, and JVL writes about this a lot in the triad, is like that protecting... democracy use a pun by protecting our civic space elections. Like that is the prime thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Like that is the thing that where people need to fight where donors and lawyers should be in the field, ensuring that people's basic rights are protected and that our constitutional Republic goes forward without any, without any efforts by an aspiring autocrat to undermine it. I totally agree. That's the prime work and objective of the next four years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
But also, like the Democrats, now to your next point, have a political objective, which is to actually win some power back so they can wield power inside the government in 2026 and 2028.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And here I think is where you get to the interesting strategic question because I think the person that skeeted you on Blue Sky, I think they were saying that there is this conventional wisdom that's like Trump distracts us with this stuff. And we should focus only on the serious stuff because that is how you win elections. And that's how you don't play his game.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And I don't know, I've just, I actually had that view for a little while in the last midterm in particular, when it was successful for Democrats in the first Biden midterm. And I'm starting to change my mind on it for this reason. You know, again, we're working this out in real time. I don't, if anybody had the sure proof answer to this, Donald Trump wouldn't be being inaugurated again in a week.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
But I was watching, I was on my little TikTok and I was scrolling through and I stopped on one of my, one of the sports podcasts that I, that I watch. It's one of the bros. Uh, no. Yeah. Well, I mean, they're bros, but yeah, I don't know. I don't think it's a sport. They didn't have any political gas lines called pardon my take. Shout out to PFT. So pardon my take.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
They were talking about Greenland, right? Like they were talking like, you think this is a good idea? Should we buy Greenland? Go America. Isn't that awesome? Go America. We should buy Greenland. And those are the people that helped Trump win, right? Trump won because he gained among people that only knew about the Haitians and Greenland and the stupid stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
They don't care about reconciliation, right? They don't care that much about the intricacies of immigration policy, even though I do. They don't care about... protecting civic space you know what I mean like they're only engaging with Trump on the stupid shit that Trump puts out there like that's their whole political life like worldview and so that just makes me wonder
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
If the Democrats are making a mistake by saying, okay, no, we're just going to focus on the serious stuff that really threatens people's lives. And we're going to let him do all the silly stuff and dominate the news and dominate the battle space for the next four years and continue to gain ground among these folks that read the news less.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
and that is what makes me think no actually the democrats should be playing his fucking game and i don't exactly know what that means in the greenland context but like you know i was when i saw the next level is in the harvey weinstein context it's like it's like maybe instead of focusing on whatever that the democrats should be out there and being like or not harvey when i say everyone say i meant jeffrey epstein sorry sorry i was confusing my sex pests and the jeffrey epstein uh context it's like it's like trump let's see it why haven't you released it oh wait or are you
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
are you the pedo actually? Were you the, were you the person? Was it, was the pedo coming from inside the house after all? Like, let's see all the, you know what I mean? Like stuff that does break through to the broader electorate. I don't know. So what, what do you think about that? Which is like the counter argument to don't get distracted by the silly stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I am. I am, Amanda. I mean, to each their own. But me and Mother, we're staging a fight at Jimmy Carter's funeral. There was one element of the Trump and Obama exchange that I think is interesting, that I think is worth discussing before we get into the real news. Trump had a little presser after the funeral, you know, the traditional post-funeral press conference. Of course.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I do think there are bad ways to be distracted by Trump. Speaking of the failures of the establishment media, I hate being a media critic. I try to do as little media criticism on here as possible because to your point, it's increasingly pointless because it's not where people are getting their news. But I had to do it on this one on Greenland.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Just so people can understand the distinction I'm talking about. I'm talking about trying to asymmetrically attack Trump by going after these things that are tabloidy and having Democratic politicians and people that oppose Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
you know try to use his own his own methods against him i'm not talking about the mainstream media taking him seriously and what before he's actually put his money where his mouth is as you said the uh amanda uh the politico headline today as i was on politico.com looking for topics can trump buy greenland question mark technically yes here are his options No.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
No. Don't help him. Okay? Like, don't help him. All right? It's not actually the job of journalists to be like, Donald Trump farted out some stupid thing that somebody told him on the golf course, and now we're going to put a real serious context around it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
There was a New York Times version of this that somebody sent me that was like, Donald Trump's strategy to buy Greenland is actually an effort to mitigate against the threat of climate change.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
The biggest probability is that it looks big on a map. And he's like, that looks big and cool. And I want the big and cool thing on the map because of the way the cartography works.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
We put it in the show notes for you for people that ask. Also, this is a good chance to inform newbies. that if you want to go ad-free, you might not have even known you could do that. You can go to the bulwark.com slash subscribe, join Bulwark Plus.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And he weighed in on a very friendly exchange with former President Obama. It looked to be very friendly. What were you talking to Barack Obama about?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
way to think about it as America first. And right. Like there's a way for Democrats to engage on this in the Americans first context, which is like, it's real Americans that are suffering. Right. And you said that you're gaining in California and like they're real Americans in Altadena that voted for Donald Trump that are suffering.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And you're, and you're right now angling to get new property in Greenland or invade the Panama canal. That's not America first. One last thing with the protect democracy had on the Elon, uh,
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
kind of oligarch corruption part of it all you know i do yeah i do i know i can't oh i'm officially a podcast cut that out okay you hate the oven i've said i got sucked in by all the other podcast hosts that use that phrase take out the oven hold me accountable for my for my verbal tics thank you amanda
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Don't cut it out, Katie, but just let people hear me put on my own hair shirt for using these cliche tics so I can do better next time. Elon, though, that is, to me, there's a political argument there that the Democrats could use, kind of going after these masters of the universe. But I'm interested in your view on kind of like the parallels between
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
you know, to what we've seen, you know, in autocratic capture in other places around the world. I mean, this feels there's been this era, you know, in the Gilded Age in America before, but in kind of the modern time in the post-World War II world, like the access that Elon has, the access that these super billionaires have,
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
to Trump feels much more like what we see in countries where we're concerned about the end of democracy than it feels like a traditional American kind of I scratch your back, you scratch mine kind of stuff that we've seen from both parties.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
This is tough for me in particular because I do think the status quo is basically fine. We have problems. But this is my small C conservative. My inside is like, you guys want change, but I don't know. Change might be bad. And so we should be a little more careful. But that's a political loser and we should be thoughtful about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I'm aware of the ways in which some of my priors are bad politics. I've been made painfully aware of that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Well, excuse me. All right. Well, I'm burdening myself. So, okay. I'm not unburdened by what has been.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I am very burdened by what has been, Amanda. To that point, final thing, because we were talking about in the green room, so we should bring it public. Okay. We got 10 days, then he's going to be inaugurated again. That's going to be bad. I don't know. I've been thinking about it. And I'm going to New York mostly so my family doesn't have to be around.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, I want Tyler to be able to live in peaceful bliss and stream some stupid TV show and go to the park, whatever. Go to Crawfish Royal, Crawfish Seasons Back and not have me. You know, I have to hear his voice in the background. And so that's how I'm dealing with it. But I think it's going to be tough.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I mean, it is it is such a repudiation of a lot of the good that we have that we've believed about the country. That doesn't mean that there's no good left in the country, but it's hard to not. not think about that and not be depressed or discouraged worse than whatever the maximum version of discouraged is. It's hard not to think about, it will be hard not to experience that feeling next week.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So anyway, that was what I thought. Maybe some listeners could think it could get some value in hearing how you're processing it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I can already tell you it's going to be the opposite of American Carnage. He's going to pretend to be everybody's friend and pretend to unite, and we're going to have to gag as people are like, well, look at this. Trump's turning over a new leaf. You might not have to read the speech. I'm telling you what it's going to be.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Will be tough for me to follow, but listeners should follow it if they can. You know, I got to be here for the people that want to suffer with me. But yeah, I'm with you. No sadness. I'll listen to you, but I'm not going to watch the event. We'll talk about feelings, but no sadness porn here. Because as you said, we can't stop it. That's what we're living through.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Amanda, please come back every month so we can talk through it all. It is so good to see you. And my love to the family, everybody else. We'll be back here on Monday. It's nine years since we lost David Bowie. So we'll take you out with a little Bowie. We'll be back here with Bill Kristol on Monday. See y'all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Not if you're an angel of death. If you're an angel of death, funerals may be right up your alley. Here's what bugs me about it. Maybe this is a personal thing. Maybe I'm, like, triggered. Maybe this is Jeb PTSD. Because he did this shit to Jeb, right? He would insult Columba and, like, make racist jokes about his wife on stage.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And then he'd go backstage and be like, hey, I want to be buddy-buddy with everybody. Like, it was just a joke. Trump really does not believe that words have consequences, that there are any consequences to this sort of thing. And he doesn't see why it's a big deal. It's all just a show. It's all just wrestling or The Apprentice or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I mean, he perpetrated a lie about how the first black president was born in Africa for a decade. And it's like, we're just going to be like, okay, man, well, whatever. 49.9% of Americans who showed up to the polls voted for you. So now we're just going to make jokes about it. It's cool. The Mexican jokes and the you were born in Africa joke, whatever. We're just moving on now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
You'll also get access to the secret pod and some other goodies, and you don't have to listen to me talk about all of our great sponsors who we love and appreciate. And one more thing, the show notes today, we're going to, if you are looking for some ways to support the firefighters and the victims in California, we're going to put some vetted links in the notes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And that makes me upset. So that's why I'm with Karen. Me and Karen and Michelle.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
F this guy. No, nothing. You get no quarter. Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
When you were a former first lady of the United States at the Democratic president's funeral, you could just be like, hey, I'd like to sit on the other pew.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
It's not like there's a law. Is somebody going to come arrest me if the presidents don't sit in the president's pew?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
We're the only ones that follow the rules and he gets away with it. All right, I want to do... Kind of related, actually, an unintentionally clean transition. There are a couple of rulings yesterday, court rulings. I want to get your take on Supreme Court five to four ruling said that Trump does not get to avoid sentencing in the New York hush money trial.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
This means that he will be inaugurated on January 20th as a convicted felon. Obviously, he's not going to jail or anything. And MAGA is upset at Amy Coney Barrett about this. She was one of the five that voted for it. I have a different kind of perspective. I'm curious, does this matter to you at all?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
One of my New Year's resolutions was I'm not going to pretend to care about things I don't care about. It's hard for me to get my dander up about this thing. He's not going to jail. This isn't real consequences. It's in the history books, I guess. But I don't know. Can you convince me that I should care about this any more than I do?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So with that, my guest today, a writer and editor at Protect Democracy. She's co-author of The Authoritarian Playbook for 2025. Prescient, how an authoritarian president will dismantle our democracy and what we can do to protect it. It's my former colleague, Amanda Carpenter. How you doing, Amanda?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Okay. That's a good silver lining, actually. I hadn't found one yet. So that is true.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
That's valuable. And obviously, as you say, the pardon thing is going to be something, you know, a big hurdle and a big fight ahead of us. And that's inevitable. It's something you guys have been talking about. You've been talking about for a while. I do wonder your take on the criminology of this with Amy Coney Barrett. Like I said, Cat Turd is really upset.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
You know, the Cat Turd crowd online is very upset. She's a traitor. And I sort of hope, this is going to sound weird, but I hope Cat Turd is right to be mad at Mamie Coney Barrett. I hope that she is really, you know, trying to...
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
draw lines about where the appropriate legal lines are for you know a president that is going to act unlawfully again certainly i don't know though like to me i kind of feel like this was a freebie that's why it's more concerning to me like gorsuch and kavanaugh didn't go along with it like this was a freebie for them to just be like you know whatever like this is like
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
The view that all of these justices always make their decisions purely based on their interpretation of the law, then, okay, that's one way to look at this. The view that sometimes they're making political decisions, like every other actor, and that Roberts and Coney Barrett are like, well, you know, he's not actually going to jail, and this isn't really that important, and...
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
We can throw a bone here, you know, to demonstrate some independence to give us a little bit of give us a little leeway when things get dicier because they're about to get dicier. You know what I mean? I don't know. Maybe that's cynical. That was my read on it. But I don't know. Maybe that's wrong. What do you think?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, we're going to fake it till we make it. You know why it's a happy Friday. I want to start here. I want to start with Karen Pence.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. A few notes. Yesterday's ad-free pod got cut off at the end, so if you missed one of my favorite widespread panic ditties about being around people and how that helps with your sadness, you can catch up with the playlist in the show notes every Friday at the Bulwark Podcast outro song playlist. It's right here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
All right. Well, it's just in, as we're talking about this, Donald Trump has now been formally adjudicated as a convicted felon. So there you go. That and two bucks won't even get you a cup of coffee these days. All right. We've got, we've got some other news.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I know. But mother, I owe you an apology. I was not really familiar with your game. She just snubbed Donald Trump. She hard snubbed Donald Trump at the Jimmy Carter funeral service at the National Cathedral yesterday. And I'm going to do something that I don't usually do, Amanda, but in honor of mother. You know, the Catholics, us cradle Catholics, we're not big on like quoting Bibles.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Concur. One more court item to get to. A federal appeals court rejected Trump's request to block the release of special counsel Jack Smith's final report. Judge Eileen Cannon was obviously the judge of choice there who was trying to help block it, even though she didn't have any jurisdiction over the matter. This has been overturned.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
The report's blocked, I guess, for three more days, absent further appeal, so it could be released as early as Sunday. Both JVLA and Bill Kristol, I think, wrote about this this week, about the importance of releasing the report. Do you have any additional thoughts on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
What, the marshal of Eileen Cannon's courts is going to come and arrest Joe Biden and Merrick Garland if he puts it out? No. Give me a break. Hopefully we'll get to see it, and that will be something we'll be able to chew over next week. There's another news item I want to pick your brain on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Then I want to get a bigger picture, a little more esoteric about how we're looking at the next four years. We talked, I guess, on Wednesday's pod with Liam Donovan and Brendan Boyle about the upcoming budget fights.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah. He's annoying sometimes. So I don't, you know, I don't love just like, I don't love just buttering him up with so many compliments, but he was very good at that specific task at which I granted, which I tasked him. So I appreciated him coming on and doing it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
I'm Greek Orthodox. You guys don't do that. Not like Marco with the biggest ashes I've ever seen on his head talking about how Donald Trump has moral authority. That was significant. Yeah. I'm like, hey, I get it. I did the ashes. And with big ashes on his forehead talking about the moral clarity of Donald Trump. Luckily, we have confession.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
So you can get the ashes, lie about Donald Trump, then go back to confession. It's a full day. Here's the ball sacks on Ukraine. And you tweeted about it, but I want to get you going a little more. He writes, interesting historical analogy. The Korean War was another three-year war with tremendous losses on both sides. It was largely stalemated.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
The American client, South Korean leader Ri, wanted to keep fighting. Eisenhower made him sign the armistice. Great leadership. Tom wrote, a dumb comparison, but naturally attractive to dilettantes. So please, please extend those remarks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
I also believe, just as one other thing, just throwing it out there, that there was this kind of security guarantee as part of that stalemate. Something that we weren't going to do. We were going to steal their rare earth minerals and then not give them a security guarantee. So there were some other differences.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Yeah, well, that's a good place to start then. There is the frog boiling element of this. It's hard to say what is surprising. I guess I thought that the Elon element has been a little bit more surprising to me, just how much he's run roughshod over everything. And I think the way that he's fucked up the economy was a little quicker than I expected. But I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
It's like, you know, if you read a book, I think you read one, it seems like, or maybe an article. Yeah. I want to stick with David's ball sacks for a little bit because not only... And I was just so excited. As soon as I saw that Korea tweet, I was like, I want to get Tom Nichols to start talking about Soviet documents.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
I was like, I just want to get him going on that. But yesterday, he made some more news. There's a strategic Bitcoin reserve now in the country. I've been hoping for some strategic reserves of some other things. Baseball cards. Marty Garbides, etc. But we've chosen to have a strategic Bitcoin reserve. David Sachs, in his tweet about this, says it doesn't cost anything.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
It doesn't cost taxpayers anything. Now, that's interesting. Why does it not cost taxpayers anything? Well, because it's funded by Bitcoin seized from criminals. Yeah. Which I think raises a few questions about what is cost and why are there so many criminals using this product that we need a strategic reserve of? But go on to your thoughts on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
I have all these like crypto builds and now send me stuff. He was like, there's some guy like made 10 million on the announcement.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
I can't tell who it is, but they were like 50x long. Anyway.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Sure. I mean, it's a lunacy to have a reserve of crypto. I also love, just not to be pedantic, but this idea that this doesn't cost anything.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
I mean, if the US government is investing in an FBI, and I guess we're probably not going to do this anymore, or we'll only investigate foes of the crypto guys that are close to Trump, and maybe we'll investigate them and seize their Bitcoin as part of the corrupt state that we're now engaging in, where you only investigate political enemies.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
This is something that Nicole and I talk about a lot. Nicole Laws and I talk about it. We were the only ones that took him seriously, it seems like. There were a lot of people that were his supporters that didn't really expect him to do all the things. And so there hasn't been anything in particular that shocked me. But like you, the speed of some of it is... That surprised me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
otherwise i mean the president himself is on top of a crypto scam so he's not gonna be investigated but like this notion that it doesn't cost anything it's like well no if the fbi and the doj put money put taxpayer dollars into investigating criminals and then they seize their assets like we get that money like that's that is something so if instead of using the money for the federal government we're putting it over here in a federal reserve in a strategic reserve like yeah that does cost something actually right
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
We could have sold it and used that money to pay down the debt or used it for whatever. You don't exactly kind of get it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Among those people, somebody put out a graphic of the crypto holdings in Trump's scam company. And 12% of the holdings were from this guy, Justin Sun, who I've talked about a couple times on the podcast. He runs the Tron Exchange. He's a Chinese national. He was investigated by the Biden SEC. The Trump SEC has stopped investigating him. Shocking. And life's pretty good for him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
So, you know, we've got a crypto reserve now and he's not being investigated. And he's, you know, about 12% of Trump's holdings he put in there. So not a bad return.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
We're going to keep moving through the parade of horribles here. It's time to embrace the horror. Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense, the merit-based Secretary of Defense. No DEI there at all. Just the best qualified person for the job. He gave the military until Wednesday to remove content. that highlighted the diversity efforts in the ranks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
There was a little problem, though, as people started deleting various things through the program.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Tom's going to do the hosting job for me. We got rid of the Enola Gay. That is a faggoty plane.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
They loved Dolly Parton on that plane. Yeah, exactly. Let me tell you. They did a lot of makeup.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
I kind of liked American Beauty. I know, bad take. I know that's an inappropriate take, but I like to give people my full candor, and I don't mind homophobic tropes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
uh vanished it's panicky it's like a gay panic almost yeah what is even the point of deleting so like what are they doing they're just going through their website to control f-ing every page like control f gay control control f trans control i don't know what to control f queer like what are you doing what is the point of this i mean it's just it's it's a weird kind of
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
panic stop during the programs it's fine i had to sit through one of these things the other day and it was like if you're a guy and a and a new young woman comes in on the staff like you're not are you supposed to say nice knockers babe like yes no maybe it's like no that would be sexual harassment it's just like who is this that's a red light the red yellow green for People that are morons.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Anybody that doesn't know this probably shouldn't have had the job in the first place. I guess they should have maybe been a better vetting. So whatever. Yeah, they're stupid shit. And change some of the stuff. That's fine. But this is ridiculous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Two thoughts on that. One is just on the serious. We can make fun of the stuff, but on the serious side, I haven't confirmed this, but there's no reason to believe it's not true. I received a note from a reader about a couple of soldiers that they are aware of that have been kicked out because of gender dysphoria or whatever. People that had done nothing else. That is fucking outrageous for...
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
A draft dodging, makeup wearing, bone spurs TV star to kick people that were voluntarily serving the military out for no reason. It's fucking outrageous and it's maddening. And your point on the embattled minority, it's funny. I was watching this video, this kind of viral video that was going around. It's a guy in a MAGA hat at Disney World. He's walking around. He's by himself at Disney World.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
And he looks, he's kind of a weird looking guy. He's got his phone up and he's like videotaping everybody that walks by him. And like people are giving him a look. And the point of this is this embattled minority thing. Like, look at me. I'm so brave. I went into the lion's den and wore this hat and people are giving me weird looks. And it's kind of like, well, for starters, you guys won.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
So you have a majority of the people. They made up a majority of the country or made up the plurality, a bare plurality of the people. So there are going to be a lot of people that agree with you. And number two, maybe these people are fucking looking at you because you're at a children's park by yourself. Filming people. Filming strangers. I think it might be your behavior, not your hat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Let's talk about the economy. We had a jobs report this morning. It was mid. It was a little short on jobs. Joe Biden's fault. Yeah, things ticked up a little bit. It wasn't great. It wasn't horrible. But a lot of bad signs on the economy. I mean, the stock market has been tanking. There have been some other signs that there's bad jobs news to come ahead. We'll see.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Consumer confidence reports, very bad. Atlanta Fed projections, very bad. The Treasury Secretary yesterday said that cheap goods are not part of the American dream. I think it might be time for somebody to meet some real Americans. The rich hedge fund guy. Maybe some media training.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
All right. And they do. Cheap goods are kind of important for them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
It's totally incoherent. So you have the tariffs. So on Monday, they're on. On Tuesday, they might be off. On Wednesday, they're on. On Thursday, it's like, well, we're going to take them off for things that are already in the trade deal that some idiot me signed like five years ago. And then it's like, well, but they might be back on in April.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
And they might be lower, but then I saw a report today where they indicated they might be higher. 25% might be too low.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Who signed it? It's incoherent. Who knows? Who can speculate, like, how long it'll last or for whatever. But, like, it doesn't feel sustainable. I mean, any sentient person has to look at this and just be like, what are we doing? You know, it's like you're going to put on tariffs because it's going to bring about a golden age. But, nah, the car manufacturers are pissed. We'll take the cars off.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
And then it's like the farmers are pissed. So it's like, oh, the potash.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
the potash like we're gonna do a carve out for the potash like what how do you even you can't defend it without sounding like an idiot because there's no rationale to it it's just random arbitrary president the king fiat and like whatever he says is good right you can't defend it without finding yourself saying things like americans don't care about cheap goods right
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
and convinces them that they like it. I totally agree with that. And it sounds like you're with me. And I just, who knows? I don't have a crystal ball. I'm not an economist. But I just, looking at the tea leaves, it seems like we're going to be in a downward spiral here. It seems bad. I don't know how he gets out of it. And my guess is the worst it gets, the worst he gets, just like during COVID.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
If David French is mad about it, then that means it's a conservative policy. That's the new rules. You mentioned about how the area where you disagreed with me slightly was just about like... There could be constraints if we're in normal times. We might not be in normal times. And you wrote for The Atlantic this week about how the Democrats are acting like things are too normal. I agree with that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
I think it's sometimes hard to figure out exactly what to do. I find myself in a situation where I'm like, the Democrats should be out there more and trying new things and trying to reach people in different ways. And then they do stuff. And I was like, eh, maybe not that. Yeah. So I don't know. So maybe normal is better than abnormal. But what do you say?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
We'll have to give ourselves a grade. I punish myself a lot with the amount of information that I'm consuming and the various sources I'm consuming them from. I don't re-listen to myself, but maybe I'll punish myself by re-listening to our January 21st one to see how it stacks up. On to the Ukraine news.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
So I like to be constructive in these cases. I hear you. It's easy to nitpick. What do you want? What do you want from them, the Democratic elected leaders?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
So over the past 24 hours, Russia has carried out massive strikes across the country using drones and ballistic missiles. It happened a day after the U.S. stopped sharing intelligence with Kyiv. that had previously given advance warnings of attacks. Just before we got on, I interviewed a reporter, Kaelin Robertson, who's on the ground in Ukraine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
The Alyssa Slotkin strategy could work if you're just basing it on him fucking everything up, and that's not a terrible bet. In the meantime, I just want more righteous anger. That's just what I keep saying. I just want more righteous anger. Like righteous anger, not silliness, not goofiness, but righteous anger.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
I'm going to leave people with some schadenfreude they'll enjoy. Elon had a pretty bad day yesterday. I just want to go tick through it. The Tesla stock is down 5.6% on Thursday, 29% for the month. He was demoted. Trump had to have a meeting where he was like, you don't get to fire people anymore, actually. The cabinet secretaries do. We'll see if that holds. Yeah, we'll see if that holds.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Not really a great sign, though. I guess it was the first sign that maybe that There will be a leash put on here at some point. They had a second failure in a row for SpaceX Starship. There was a spectacular shower of debris on a test flight. And this was kind of a double whammy for him because I think he's also trying to redo the FAA.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
And the FAA had to halt flights to several Florida airports to avoid the debris. He's being tweeted at by multiple baby mamas. And as I mentioned to James Carville on Tuesday, I was at a parade on Monday where all the Cybertrucks were getting pelted with beads. So... You know, I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
That was the righteous anger I've been looking for. I watched that speech. That speech was awesome. So, you know, I mean, obviously he's still the richest guy in the world, like whatever. But there's certainly some signs that maybe he's bit off a little more than he can chew.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
People can check that out either on YouTube or on the Bulwark Takes podcast. You know, he was reporting from Kiev and says basically, like in the last 24 hours, like the amount of air... attack material that has gotten through onto the ground has been unlike anything previously. The air raid sirens were going off in Kyiv more often than they had been in the previous months.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Eventually, it's going to matter to his shareholders and eventually he's going to have to get called back to the office, you know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
I think he says democratic socialists, to be fair to Bill Griswold, but he might be on the way to full socialism.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Can you just leave us with any hope? Can gazillionaires eventually suffer the consequences of their actions? Is there any hope in the show?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
This is the ridicule, though. I mean, if the spaceship's breaking up and that your car company is imploding and you have to report to little Marco now before you can fire people, you know, eventually the ridicules can pile up. This is my hope. Don't take this from me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
We can only pray. That was a great way to end. Thank you, Tom Nichols. Everybody enjoy your weekend. We'll be back here. Actually, Bill Crystal, I forget what he's doing on Monday. He's doing something else. I have a new guest for the Monday show, but me and Bill are going to be hanging out on Substack Sunday afternoon. So if you can't wait till Monday for me,
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
You can come on over to the Bulwark Substack on Sunday afternoon, get a little bit of Tim and Bill. And Tom, you'll be back in six weeks. Who knows what horrors will await us then. I will see you in some fresh hell next month. Sounds good. Tom Nichols, thanks so much. Everybody else, we'll see you soon. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
And all of this is just a direct one-to-one correlation. Trump just decided to flip the switch. We're no longer going to share intelligence with Ukraine. He told the Brits they can't share our intelligence with Ukraine. And Putin has taken advantage of it. And there's been deaths and destruction, targeting of energy, infrastructure. And it is an astonishing, sick betrayal of our ally.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
So somehow I went back and looked at the archives. Time is a flat circle. I feel like I'm living a lifetime every day. I also feel like I'm hearing from you constantly and all your various platforms. And so I was like, when was Nichols last on the pod? And it was the day after inauguration. Oh, yeah. That was a real upper for people. So it's been six weeks since then.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
What boys? Where are they going? What are you talking about? Here's the reason to do it, just to be blunt. If you're looking at the facts on the ground and you look at what happened in the Oval Office, we haven't talked since then, and the reason to do it is If you're essentially on Putin's side and you're trying to force Zelensky to the negotiating table, like that is what this is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
It's like we're going to force Zelensky to negotiate. And you see he sent a tweet this morning that was basically thanking France because they still did have some F-16s to protect their air that were French aircraft. that they had borrowed. And he said, basically, he wants to go to the negotiating table to try to get a ceasefire for air and sea because he can't protect his country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
And like that is, I guess if you're going to art of the deal this and say that it's something besides just, you know, capricious, you know, Trump advanced temper tantrums, it would be that he is in league with Putin and trying to push Zelensky to the table.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
The Macron press conference... I guess it was an address to the nation earlier this week was just, it's just, it still is astonishing. Again, like we all saw this coming. We all saw the, the Trump of it coming, but like sometimes you just watch a video and you're like, how is this the world that we're in? We're like, the president of France is giving an address to his nation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
That's like, don't worry. The French nuclear umbrella. will protect the rest of Europe from Russia if it comes to it. Like, we hope that the Americans are on our side, but we will go forth to help defend Ukraine as if they're not.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
And I wanted to start by just kind of asking you your biggest takeaways from this interminable six weeks. What has surprised you? What has outraged you most?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
I'm sorry. Trump told Zelensky, don't tell me how to feel about this. It might not affect us. I've not read a history book. I don't know anything that happened outside of like my field of vision right this second. It's boring at this point to do the wither the Republicans thing, and I'm sick of doing it. And yet sometimes you have to. And I do think this is a moment where Ukrainians are dying.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Ukrainian infrastructure is being attacked for no reason except for, I guess, us helping Putin pressure Ukraine to the table. And you had these guys, Roger Wicker is wearing a Ukraine pin during the confirmation hearings.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Brian Fitzpatrick, Don Bacon, the guys that I'm supposed to like, the Republicans that I'm supposed to like, who are out there saying, oh, I will go to bat for Ukraine no matter what. Nothing, nothing. And we're not hearing anything. They're not using the power of the purse. They're not pressuring Trump. They're not... Don Bacon is meekly criticizing him, but not using any of his power.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
I mean, it is astonishing. These guys are just going to let Ukrainians wither and die because of Trump and Vance's whims. And they're doing nothing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Yeah. No. And number one, Tom, tell us people get sometimes people get mad at me when I say this, but like I have no sympathy for their fear. Like, are you kidding me? You're not going to do something about this because you're scared that you've gotten some empty death threats that literally people died.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
like ukrainians died yesterday because of what donald trump did and you're a fucking u.s senator so do something about it i tweeted a version of this complaint and somebody sent me this this tweet by representative joe wilson from south carolina you might remember him from uli fame simpler times it was retweeted by don bacon when i was like yes when i was like where is don bacon people are like well here's don bacon here's this retweet he sent um here's what joe wilson said
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Friday. We have survived another week, barely, and I am here with one of your faves, Professor Emeritus at the Naval War College. He's a staff writer at The Atlantic. His books include The Death of Expertise, which has an updated and expanded edition. Go get it. It's Tom Nichols and maybe Cat Lilly. We'll see.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
War criminal Putin launched a ballistic missile at a hotel where American, UK, and Ukrainian aid and health volunteers were staying. Four dead, over 30 injured. In his deliberate bombing of children's cancer hospitals, maternity wards, etc., Putin further confirms his cowardice and contempt for life, including the lives of the Russians he sends to die in his pointless war. Great tweet, but...
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Fucking do something about it. Like the ballistic missile hit a hotel where Americans aid workers live because your president that you supported stopped giving intelligence aid to Ukraine. So fucking do something about it. Don't tweet. Call Donald Trump. Mention Donald Trump in the tweet. This is virtue signaling. This is the shit that Republicans and conservatives make fun of. That's all this is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
It says Putin is bad. Putin is bad. At least if you held up the paddle when Donald Trump was in the room, it would have sent a message that he was speaking about Donald Trump. This is just an empty critique of Putin. Great. These guys just fucking blow my blood so much. So anyway, since we haven't talked since Friday, before we move on from this, any other thoughts?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
And you wrote about it, called it one of the grimmest days. Any other thoughts about that scene?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
My blood is still boiling from that Joe Wilson tweet. So I'm going to move to someone else that we both hate and try to get you to do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Covid Trump 2.0
Someone else that we have some very severe thoughts about. Severe Christian godly thoughts about. David Sachs. I don't want history professor Tom again. You task me, Tim. That's good. At least I didn't have you on on Ash Wednesday, so you don't have to talk about him with the ashes on your forehead like Marco.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
I mean, very, very thoughtful, but been feeding high-level center-right cope to people about how the institutions will hold for a while now. Obviously, it would be Yuval. Yuval has not been on the alarmist side of things for a decade.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
Yeah, I guess my final point on this is like, it's just easier to destroy than to create or to maintain, right? And so I also don't think that this is a brilliant Machiavellian tacticians or that I have seen some articles out there from people talking about how they really had a great plan this time and Roosevelt came in and had this very meticulous plan.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
It seems like a lot of hazard and chaos that marked the first administration. But what seems different from the first administration is that there's not There aren't any lawyers around. There's not any Don McGahn around that's like, I don't know, maybe we should do this. We should tailor that. We haven't seen a lot of evidence. They've backed off. Trump's backed off.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
External lawsuits have frozen things, but they haven't. There's no limiting principle internally, it doesn't seem like to me, besides Trump's whims. And so, yeah, I think that they will do damage. I think that they are chaos agents and chaos will lead to some unpredictable damage downstream.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
We don't know which one of these things will be the thing that hurts people and causes people to get upset at the administration and their management of things. My concern is that they will have broken a lot of things semi-permanently to permanently by then. And that they will have rested control of big parts of the administration in ways that they intend to.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
Yeah, apparently. I don't quite get it. I would be checked out and just been listening to my Denver Nuggets podcast if it was me. But, you know. There's a market for everything out there. Creating a trust and will is a very slow and time consuming process, leaving you less time for more important tasks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
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The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
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The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
It's used by hundreds of thousands of families and counting. Uncomplicate the process with Trust and Will. Protect what matters most in minutes at trustandwill.com slash bulwark and get 10% off plus free shipping. That's 10% off and free shipping at trustandwill.com slash bulwark. Let's talk about a couple of the specific items. We got the FBI. There's a new memo to the workforce last night.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
Acting FBI Director Brian Driscoll disclosed he'd been ordered by Acting Deputy Attorney General Emile Bove to turn over the names of all FBI employees who worked on the January 6th cases. Driscoll could be removed as acting director at any point and also fired from the Bureau. He's not eligible for government pension.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
Both laid the groundwork for doing so by calling Driscoll insubordinate in a memo. So, I mean, the cash hearing is now next Thursday, or the cash vote, rather. But this feels inevitable, that we have a night of the long knives coming for the FBI here in the next couple weeks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
We love Wittes. We had a period of time where we had Wittes Wednesdays on here. It might be time to reignite that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
A couple thoughts on that. The MAGA brand was pretty tarnished as well, and it recovered. So there's hope for the Resistance brand. And I'm intrigued just listening to you thinking about the Bill Kristol FBI agent Ezra Klein AOC alliance that has formed in our very strange world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
Nobody asked for this. This is why you're the Lib Whisperer. Because I take your perspective now, having heard it fleshed out more, because for me, instinctively, the idea that there is hope that they fail is not really the motivating factor. I think the Never Trumper contingent, the few of us, are pretty motivated by hopeless causes and fighting them righteously.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
Yeah, exactly right. And so I do—this will probably end. Darkness will probably befall the West, but we should fight it anyway. We should fight against the dying of the light. But I do understand how it's probably motivating to government officials, to people that are—to federal government workers, to people that are going to have to have a stiffened spine to think this is not a hopeless endeavor.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
Yeah, I got some of the tweets here. Just for the record, I was racist before it was cool. You could not pay me to marry outside my ethnicity. It gets worse from there, but there are a couple of them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
Or maybe they are, actually. I've got Juan Cazares, so I want to nerd out on some other stuff. I want to talk about some of the actual policies they're going through outside of the legal shit. You mentioned earlier what they're trying to do with renewables and energy policy. I'm curious your take on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
Trump kind of leaked out some tax plan ideas yesterday that I think the range was like a $6 to $10 trillion price tag on that bad boy, which is fiscal conservativeism in its finest. This is just kind of open-ended for you. What is catching your eye as far as their... policy objectives kind of outside of this legal, all these legal fights.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
Yeah, I want to get to that, your weakness theory there. But are you saying that you think that the Democrats who were of the view that maybe he wasn't quite as existential of a threat as some of the loudest alarmists, including those of us here at the board, including some loud alarmists said, you think they're changing their mind now, like after the first three weeks?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
That is another big change, a big welcome change in the Democrats over the last three weeks, which I've been fully banging the drum on, and I'm happy that they're doing it. I do wonder, but the Republicans do have a three-vote majority in the House.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
I've actually been seeing a contrary view that I hadn't really thought through, that they might just be like, well, we're in charge of everything, so whatever. We're not actually going to do a budget, but we're not actually going to shut anything down. We're not going to shut down the government either. We're just going to do some hybrid thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or we just shut down. That would be a theory. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
We'll be talking about that, you know, I don't know, in March or something. We got some other news. How you doing, Ezra?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
I guess if you could go back to the old George W. Bush terror threat level, where do you think everybody is right now on threat to democracy threat level?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
You sort of referenced this already. You had a column, I guess it was what, last Friday or earlier this week, that also is a video pod. You're multi-platform now. We're all contesting for video now. It ended with this. This was kind of how you summed up the case. The first two weeks of the Trump presidency have not shown his strength. He's trying to overwhelm you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
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The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
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The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
He's trying to keep you off balance. He's trying to persuade you of something that isn't true. don't believe him. You're making the argument that you should not believe that he has these powers that he's claiming to have. My reaction when reading this was, that is cope. That is high grade, uncut, liberal elite cope, straight from Medellin. And that is not right, actually.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
The famous tweet the House Judiciary Republicans sent, Elon, Kanye, Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
This is why you're at the top of the game, Ezra. I asked you about Kanye tweeting, call me Yadolf Yitler. And like you get it all the way back to your disinhibition column. It's such well executed. Wrap it right up in a bow. Wonderfully done. Everybody, Ezra Klein, go get his book with Derek Thompson. It's called Abundance. We'll have them back and we'll talk about that in a month or two.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
And that he has demonstrated that he can break a anybody else gets out of bed in the morning. But convince me otherwise. Is that where you are now? Yeah, that's where I am now. That was my initial reaction.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
So you can, you know, we can do a little book club together. Pre-order it, read it, and we'll chat about it in a little bit. Thanks so much, Ezra Klein. Always a pleasure, my friend. All right. We'll see you all back here on Monday. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
I agree with that part of the argument.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
Yeah, I don't know. There's something about your new facial hair also that is, I think, hurting your likability quotient a little bit. It feels like it's a dark Ezra era. Have you looked at the era we're in? You think this is time for light Ezra? That's a fair point. It's a fair point. All right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
The last time you were on the pod, we were in the period between the Biden debate debacle and him actually stepping aside. You said something then that created a little stir. It was this. You said, I've had top Democrats say to me basically something like, I don't know why all these Democrats who think Donald Trump is an existential threat to democracy are acting the way they are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
I like it. I mean, I'm taking the cope. I'm getting a spoon. I'm getting some baking soda. And I'm going to try to smoke it up and see if I can live in that world. Here's my counterpoint. Please. He has nominated... an absolutely absurd clown cabinet of ridiculous people to lead the military, our Health and Human Services Department, the FBI, the Department of Justice. And
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
Initially, there were smart people in D.C. and commentators who were like, he's going to run into some trouble here. And Mitch McConnell and Todd Young, who knows? They're going to vote against him. He hasn't suffered a single setback. Matt Gaetz self-deported, but probably didn't have to in retrospect, but we'll never know. So he's going to get all those folks through. He is...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
In the middle of a dismantling of the federal government that is out of the fever dreams of the most extreme dork in the basement of the Heritage Foundation. I hear what you're saying about how some of this stuff has been frozen, but it is going to be hard to unravel. other parts of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
I mean, we'll get into USAID in detail, but going from 10,000 to 290 employees, senior FBI officials getting frog-marched out of there, political firings that are at a scale of 100x, what caused Alberto Gonzalez to resign 15 years ago. And I think internationally,
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
has already put into motion the twilight of our values-based Western alliance to such a degree that I don't think that most of these countries are ever going to trust that they can be in relationships with us again. So I don't know, man. I'm not saying he's invincible. I totally agree with the first part. I think that he should be fought.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
You went on to say that essentially those top Democrats said to you that a lot of them were doing kayfabe. They didn't really believe that he was the existential threat that many of them were saying. I think the revealed behavior in the intervening seven months has borne out that. But I'm wondering how you think those folks are feeling about that gamble now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
But I think the notion that they're just stepping on rakes everywhere and that this is a clusterfuck and they're actually very weak, I'm not there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
That's what I am noticing. Do they care about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back opinion columnist at the New York Times and host of the Ezra Klein Show, which is a podcast, but also available on YouTube. He's also the co-author of the forthcoming book, Abundance, with the Atlantic's Derek Thompson, who I like better than Ezra. That's out next month.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
That's just not a sign of weakness. Like, it could have been a sign of weakness, I guess, is all I'm saying. Like, there could have been an alternate world where, like, he lost a couple of them, and that would have shown a deep weakness.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ezra Klein: The Resistance, Back from the Dead
I mean, there was an NOAA official I saw this morning that said, we're just going to, he said, their strategy is we're just going to do it and dare somebody to stop us. And by the time they stop us, we'll have destroyed, they'll have destroyed it.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Anyway, what I learned in land, man, the notion of a show about a land man is so unappealing. I have no idea what you're talking about, but go ahead.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
It's another group of people that didn't see what was right in front of their nose. Hey guys, if you love John Lovett, then you're going to love the YouTube series we're doing together called Speech Center, where we dissect political speeches with insight and chaos and gayness and laughs and despair.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
John, as you all know by now, is the host of Love It or Leave It, America's top late night political gay live comedy podcast, where he takes on the biggest and most absurd stories in politics, helping you stay informed while laughing instead of crying. You can tell that John's producer wrote that. This season is promising some big name guests, unexpected conversations, and can't miss moments.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
He does a monologue with jokes. They're mostly funny. He does captivating interviews. Captivating, love it. Are they captivating? They're pretty captivating. They're at times captivating. The one I saw last week with Tom Green. You remember Tom Green? I haven't seen that guy in ages. It was hilarious. What's happened with Tom Green is crazy. Love It pulled it out of him.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Anyway, plus he's got signature segments and games. Love It or Leave It delivers the type of comedy you won't find anywhere else. So go catch new episodes of Love It or Leave It every Saturday. Watch on YouTube and go catch Speech Center on YouTube or join a live show in LA to witness the Love It chaos in person. All right. I want to get a little – well, it might go darker. It might be lighter.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
I was interested yesterday as the takes were flying by two things that you and my colleague Jonathan Velas, JVL, said. You gave kind of the bright side of this argument, and he gave the dark side, as is his tendency. You wrote this. This is the beginning of a massive fall of MAGA.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
No amount of division, fear-mongering lies, and cheap lines will overcome the fact that you just took many people's prosperity just because it makes you feel powerful. Mark my words, this is the beginning of the end. It's an optimistic look. JVL wrote this. And just like that, the age of American empire, the great Hux Americana, ended. We cannot overstate what has just happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
It took 71 days for Donald Trump to wreck the U.S. economy, mortally wound NATO, and destroy the American-led world order. So, Adam Kinzinger, was yesterday the end of MAGA or the end of America?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
I hope you're right. The concern I have, the thing that dances around my head on that is I basically used to say exactly what you just said, like in 2018 and 19, and then COVID happened. Yeah, I know. And like the thing, my shtick was always when I would go, like when I was doing my book tour, you know, a common question a lot of interviewers would ask me is, what will break the spell?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Like how will things, what will change things? You know, What will make these people come to the light? And my answer then was always like, you know, it's going to take some outside shock, right? Like they're going to have to be forced into seriousness. There's going to have to be some other event that that, you know, makes people come to terms with the fact that this is silliness and games.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
It did not work. Smoot-Hawley, actually.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
And then we had a global pandemic and people got fucking crazy. Yeah. People got even crazier. And so that kind of shook my confidence that a outside negative event will bring people back towards reality or seriousness. Now, in that case, it was the Chinese or whatever. It was either Chinese incompetence or whatever. or bad luck or whatever, but it came from China.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
In this case, I guess the argument in favor of it is like, it's pretty much just Donald Trump doing this. Like Donald Trump is just like, there's no, and I guess people could blame it on, could come up with something else to blame, but it's pretty much just Donald Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
It's a little less complicated to do that this time. I mean, they control everything and the economy was fine before he came.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Trump sucks. It's probably pretty good. Trump is really stupid and he bankrupted a casino and now he's bankrupting you. That was probably, you know, welcome in. I want to go back to the JVL dark side. Because, as usual, he was channeling me. Because this is kind of what was rattling around my head before I saw that he wrote it. Which is like, I really am not sure that it's fixable.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
I really do think something fundamentally has changed. And I don't mean whatever. It takes a long time for empires to collapse. I know that you're a straight man, so you've probably spent a lot of time thinking about the Roman Empire. It took a long time. It didn't just happen overnight, right? It takes generations. So I'm not saying that the whole country is going to collapse or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
We're going to become an anarchist Libya state. But... The world has changed in a way that I don't think is fully reparable. It just has. And other countries are going to have to make calculations. And they look at us and just be like, you elected your stupidest American a second time after he got elected.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
indicted after he got convicted on criminal charges you put him back in there and now he's fucking us yeah how could we possibly trust you how could we possibly trust that you'll you'll have a stable you know leaders in the future like you're acting like a Libya like you're acting like a failed state the world reserve currency is not the Turkish whatever the
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
You know, like the lira is not the world reserve currency because people are worried that they can't trust the government, the stability of those countries. They felt like they could trust us. You know, we've had decisions, but that our institutions were strong. And I just think that that has changed permanently. And there was one piece of evidence of that, which is Mark Carney speaking yesterday.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
I don't know what to play that for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
I mean, that's crazy that that is real. You know, I mean, we made mistake Vietnam or Iraq or whatever, but Canada wasn't out there being like, it seems like US has joined the baddies. And so we got to find a new alliance. That is a new thing that's hard to change.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Trump's more of a musical queen. You know, he's familiar with Cats, Phantom of the Opera, Top Gun. I don't think he might not have seen Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Probably true. Yeah, it didn't work. No, it didn't. And we're finding that out as we tape right now. The Dow is down, looks like another 2.5%. NASDAQ down another 3%. Plus, I mean, it got slaughtered yesterday, the markets.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
since you mentioned the bombing of the Houthis, that stuff is still ongoing. It's kind of like gotten pushed out of the news, I guess, because what the world economy is collapsing. And I don't know that Donald Trump really wants to talk about it for some reason. But what do you make of what's happening? And we've continued to send more jets over there, more bombings.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
I mean, part of the spin from MAGA out of the signal chat situation was like,
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
yeah sure it was kind of dumb but the operation was a huge success it's like okay maybe i guess but like the seas aren't clear i mean we're we're still kind of getting into this i don't know if you want to call it a quagmire but we're still involved over there so what's i mean you're kind of monitoring this stuff closer to me what do you make what's happening over there
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
We saw job losses already in various sectors. You know that, I mean, any minute now, there are going to be little signs outside of stores because the businesses don't want the customers to be mad at them. They're like, sorry, we had to increase the avocado prices, but it's the tariffs, it's not me. You know that's coming. And it's like... The Trumpers have no rationale for it, really.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Well, here's the good news. Those are complicated issues, thorny issues, requires a lot of expertise. People are familiar with what happened in UAE, with UAE and Saudi when they fought with the Houthis. There's a lot of ins and outs in what have you. So we want to have the best people involved. And there's some news yesterday. Four officials were fired from the National Security Council.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Brian Walsh was a director of intelligence and a former top staffer for Marco Rubio. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
I mean, there's going to be some magical golden age to come off the back of it. And then our old friends and non-friends, but the people from the pre-Trump time, like even Ted Cruz is out there like, well, I don't really like tariffs, but this is just a negotiation, right? And it's like, no, I don't think so. It doesn't seem like a negotiation to me. I think the dude is just...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
insane and like really loves tariffs. And now he's going to be in a fucking stubborn off with every world leader around the globe. So it doesn't seem great. What do you make of it?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Thank you. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
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The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
What would he be doing differently if he wasn't?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
I also don't believe it. I also don't believe that it's actually like... Because I think it's way stupider than that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
I think he's just a fucking moron. But if he were a... Russian assets in the White House. It's hard to think about something that he would have done differently the first 71 days.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Slava. All right. Adam Kinzinger. Have you said thank you yet? I've had you on quite a few times.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Oh, okay. Appreciate that. All right. That's Adam Kinzinger. He used to be a congressman. Now he's got a substack. Go check it out. Everybody else, have as good a weekend as you can. Don't look at your Charles Schwab account. We'll see you back here on Monday with Bill Kristol. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Yeah, nothing happening. You know, we just have like MAGA conspiracy blogger, white nationalists running the National Security Council and the stock market collapsing, global economic crisis, the Canadians dunking on us. Nothing, nothing much to talk about. So we'll get into all that. But I wanted to start, you texted me yesterday, this clip and we're nineties kids, you know?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Yeah, two thoughts on that. And one is just on the Trump psychology. There's also the notion that getting inside Trump's brain is not a fun process. But you have to think about this. The dude became president fucking twice. Everybody told him it was insane the first time. He had no chance of winning. He didn't think he had a chance of winning. He won.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
He gets indicted four times, doesn't have a chance of winning, has his first re-election campaign event in his house in Mar-a-Lago. The only guy that shows up is the guy in the brick wall suit. Even Matt Gaetz was like, I've got to wash my hair that day. Nobody thought he could come back except us deranged Never Trumpers who are like, no, I mean, he might still win again. He comes back. So...
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
He has, like, in addition to his megalomania, he also, like, really has bought the thing that, like, everybody is wrong, all the smart people are stupid, and Trump is right. Like, he really, I think he deeply believes that.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
And so in a situation like this, when all the smart people and the economists and the FT are out there saying this is going to... Yeah, the globalists think it's going to crash. Trump is like, no, they were wrong before. They were wrong on this. They were wrong on the fires. You know, they didn't realize it was the water. They didn't let the streams go down there.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
It's only Trump that knows all this stuff. I really think that he's embraced all that. And so it's hard to like rationality cannot break through. So, I mean, that's the one side of it. And then to your point on the onshoring, it's like it's all so fucking stupid. We're tariffing Madagascar like 35 percent or something like 75, 70 percent of the world's vanilla comes from Madagascar.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
It's like, what are we doing? Are we in a trade battle with them over what? Like Madagascar is screwing us on the vanilla. It's like your vanilla latte. You want it to be more expensive now by 35% to get one over on Madagascar? What do you want them to buy more from us? You want them to start buying more jeans?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
So, so Ferris Bueller's day off was obviously pretty formative. I don't know how old you were, but you know, when I was, When I was 11 or 12, getting into my troublemaking phase, catching Ferris Bueller's Day Off on home video. I don't think I'm quite old enough to – I didn't see it in the theater.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
I don't know. I might want to dunk on him.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Yeah. I was going to save it. of the end. I had a fuck around and find out segment of the pod. I was going to say for the end, but why don't we flip it? It's Friday. I'll do the serious part. I have a dark part, so we'll do it now. Here we go. There are a couple people I wanted to shout out. There's a fella. We'll be nice to the first one. There's a fella, Richard Hanania.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
I think he did some pretty racist stuff in the past. I don't really know his whole background. But, you know, everybody can turn over a new leaf, I guess. He was tweeting yesterday. He's a very popular blogger in, like, the red-pilled tech world. Mark Andreessen and those guys read him. Okay, anyway. He wrote this yesterday. For those asking, yes, voting for Trump was a mistake.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
I thought we'd get a repeat of the first administration, but we didn't. The signs were there. I just did not take my own ideas about the awful elements of MAGA seriously enough. Here's the thing. On the one hand, it's like, we all fucking told you it wasn't going to be like the first administration. Anybody with eyes knew it wasn't going to be like that, but okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
But the kind of hilarious part of it is like, it's only been 70 days. It's like it took 10 weeks for people to start doing the I screwed up thing. I mean, even I thought it would take, you know, six months, a year.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Let's get that on TikTok. That was a good one. Turn on the TikTok camera for Kinzinger right now. I don't know if this segment is going to need music because I feel like there's going to be a lot of this. I'll talk to Jason about this. We might need a theme song for the Fuck Around and Find Out segment. We've got one more, though. I've got a short one.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Dave Portnoy over at Barstool, the founder of Barstool Sports, he supported Trump. His spidey senses had started to tingle during the signal chat situation, which he did a big rant about how incompetent that was. And here he is yesterday on his day trading show.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Could not have a better day to bring back our friend. He's a former Republican congressman from Illinois. He served in the Air Force during Iraq and Afghanistan. He's the founder of Country First, and he writes a Substack newsletter. And he's got to turn off his notifications. It's Adam Kinzinger. What's happening?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Down $7 million. How many do you think it's going to take to go for... How many million do we got to lose before we can go for Kami Kamala and realize that maybe the tax rate going up by 2% wasn't actually the biggest financial threat to your life?
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Well, it's funny. In that movie, Ben Stein, who has now become a big Trumper, gave the class a lecture on a topic and – The elder millennials and young Gen Xers among us will remember what it was. But for everybody else, let's take a listen to Ben Stein speaking to Ferris Bueller's class.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
A fraction of a fraction.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
This is the part of the show where me and Kinzinger start to talk about our transition towards Bernieism. If you want to radicalize a classical liberal into Bernieism, all you got to do is make them spend time with cranky billionaires, whiny billionaires. It is enough. It's a radicalizing experience.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
Have you talked to that oil guy? Because, you know, I was talking yesterday with Tracy Alloway at Odd Lots and she was pointing to the Dallas Fed survey where they like survey a bunch of oil and gas guys. And it's like things aren't actually great in the oil and gas sector right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1014: Adam Kinzinger: Mortal Damage to the American Empire
The idea that this is going to be a boom time of drilling for liquid gold because Trump is going to unleash the animal spirits. It's not exactly what's happening. Yeah.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
On this one, I'll let you make fun of the Democrats' communications and I'll take responsibility for my people because I think possibly no because of Iraq. Honestly, like I do think that it was just such a debacle that there, you know, within the country, like there has just become an increased skepticism or like hostility to the idea that we should be involved. overseas in foreign conflicts.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And I think it's very complicated to then say, okay, well, this is not Iraq, right? Like Ukraine is different. Like we don't have troops on the ground. We're not trying to do regime change. We're trying to defend an ally. And that helps us because, you know, if Russia successfully overtakes Ukraine, that's going to demonstrate weakness, you know, to the, you know, rules-based order.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And that could cause threats to us down the line, right? Like it's just, it's a complicated point to make. especially in the face of really pretty bipartisan, increasingly, opposition to us playing this role in the world. And so to me, the obligation is then, this is what Trump has unraveled, is that there were a number of things that
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
that are not really popular among the whole country that leaders in both parties continued to do, such as USAID, because it was the right thing to do and because they were responsible leaders, right? And sometimes... that is required. This is not ancient Greece. We don't have a direct democracy on purpose. Not everything should be decided based on 50% plus one vote.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
If that is true, I would have never gotten married. That was an opposed vote until the Supreme Court did it. Eventually, sometimes leaders have to do things that are unpopular because they're the right thing to do. Maybe sometimes they get held accountable for that. Trump, because he doesn't care about any of that, doesn't like have really core values or empathy or care about the American idea.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I'm Tim Miller.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It doesn't believe that exists. It only believes their American interests has wiped away all of that. And so I don't know that the Democrats could have... you know, just by making their messaging better, you know, changed people's view of this or, you know, broadly America's role when it comes to aid.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Hey, banter. I'm just happy to be in here for Scott. You know, I think that I'm going to be a downgrade in certain manners and upgrade in hair. You know, we'll see what the people think.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So, I mean, I think that you could probably give a few of them some lessons on how to make those arguments better, having watched you on The Five and having watched some of them. But I don't know that it would have actually made the difference in this case.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It was a failure. And I don't... I mean, obviously, Biden's inability to deliver a message had ramifications. Like, what... In this case, was that the key difference? I don't know. But, I mean, I think it was a problem across multiple verticals. And it relates to the... Democratic stuff now. It's just he was not he was absent. Right.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And there was a moment in 2020 where I think people were so fucking sick of the news and Trump and COVID, like the idea that Biden wouldn't be in their lives every day was kind of people were like, that's a good thing. There were at least some people out there that that was an attractive.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
But like over time, as crises unfolded, as inflation happened, as the invasion of Ukraine happened, as 10-7 happened. You know, people need somebody that can talk to them, right? And to deliver a compelling message and that can, you know, demonstrate leadership traits or demonstrate strength at least.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And I think that that was like kind of missing from the last couple of years of the last administration.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I totally agree with that. I never compliment Trump. So it's just how you want. But like guy has been every, like there was this thing on the left and like resistance world, like during the campaign that was like, Trump is just as old as Biden and Trump's, you know, brain is putting too. And like the media, it's so unfair that the media is making the Biden age thing, like the only thing.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And it's like, I keep saying, I don't think that is true. Like Trump gives off crazy energy, not old energy. Like he just does. And since he's been in there, I didn't know. I thought it was an unknown.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Might Trump win and just be so happy that he's not in jail, that he's just going to golf and go on the NASCAR track, which he did, and do the fun stuff and the accoutrement of the presidency and not do everything else? And that's been the opposite. He's given more press conferences than anybody. I lose track of all the press conferences he's done. I missed one on Friday.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
He's talking to the media all the time. And that is how to do it in the modern media age. And I think that that is something that those of us who oppose them could learn from.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It was fun. It's good. I mean, I'd rather be raging with you guys than... Maybe you have a view on this. I think not raging with the Dems on the Hill. I'm not feeling a ton of raging. Yeah, snoozing.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Maybe I'm wrong about this, but I kind of just see Taiwan going the same path as Ukraine. where there is some resistance inside the administration that wants us to be stronger in that case, and that there's some resistance among Republicans on the Hill.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Resistance may not be the right word, but some views among Republicans on the Hill and in the administration that are more hawkish on Taiwan than Trump's itself. But Trump was asked about Taiwan at one of his 100 press conferences we were just talking about recently, and he goes on a rant about how they've been stealing our jobs and how jobs for the chips need to be coming back to America.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And I just – if you just looked at the tone of his comments, it didn't sound like the tone of somebody that's ready to put American defense power on the line to protect Taiwan. And I just don't see how a Trump-Vance administration – who has just laid the groundwork with their followers that they only care about us first. They only care about American interests first.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
We shouldn't care about what's happening on the other side of the globe. If a conflagration happened with China and Taiwan, I just don't know how they can go to their supporters and be like, oh, yeah, actually, we need to put in a couple hundred billion here or, God forbid, troops or ships or whatever. I don't I don't see it.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah, I'd rather be raging with the moderates than snoozing with the progs.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Marco might be trying to fool himself into thinking that Trump sees China differently because it's a bigger threat. But I think that if push came to shove, we'd see pretty much the same thing we see from him on Ukraine.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
That's that's how I see it. And I think Trump likes that, actually, too, by the way. I will say this. I think Trump doesn't mind if people are confused. You know, like his his he is.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah, right. And so I think it's I don't think that he's like mad at Marco over this. I think that he's like, well, you know, we'll keep them on their toes. Like that's part of Trump's mindset. And my point is just like if push comes to shove. I don't... If I'm Xi, I'm like, these guys aren't going to go to battle for Taiwan. That would be the bet I'd be making.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
You want to talk about Mardi Gras instead?
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah, I mean, the asymmetry is just so obvious, it's almost like, you know, it's like dog bites man to even mention it. But like, yeah, I mean, look, so in part, I actually would be defensive of the other mainstream outlets saying,
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Like, because I think that if ABC and NBC and CBS said we're going to boycott in solidarity with AP, I feel like the Trump administration would be like, OK, peace, you know? Yeah. So it's kind of like the conservative outlets need to do it. And they're not going to. So I don't, you know, I mean, that's like the situation.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And I think everybody should just be aware of like what time it is and what's what's happening out there. As far as like the more interesting part of this, and obviously there's the First Amendment threat here. But to me is. How all in these guys are going on like, you know, what I call patriotic correctness. Like, you know, it's not just enough to stop doing, you know, pro-DEI activities.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
They need to snuff out anybody that is using words or language that they don't like, right? And to a preposterous extent, the idea that everybody has to use the new name of the Gulf that they just changed one minute ago or else they're going to be banned is ridiculous.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It's a good question. I think that they are doing a lot of stuff that people who read Hill newsletters and who know a lot about what's happening in the federal government don't. I think they are seeing Democrats. I think that anyone who is a casual observer of politics is seeing only Donald Trump and Elon Musk and Travis and Taylor. I think that's like the material that they're getting.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And in some ways, it's ridiculous as some of the most extreme things that you see on the far left on PC, like demanding that people...
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
you know use um you know use latinx or whatever right and so i do wonder if it's going to backfire on them eventually um i i don't are people really for this like it feels it feels very mockable so obviously it's serious but i i do think they are like very much being responsive to something that only like a tiny group of far-right trolls who are super online actually care about
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And I don't know if that's like a path to long term success for the right.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So you do think that's conscious? Like, they're like, hey, you know, this isn't going to last forever, this, like, gloating honeymoon, and so we want to, like, rub their face in shit for as long as possible? Like, there's a little bit of that?
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
This is a fact.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I wonder, is that true, like your comment about how they're owning the culture now? I can't figure this out. Like, is that actually true? Or does it just kind of feel like it's true? And maybe that's a distinction without a... Would I be able to know the difference? Yeah, maybe that's a distinction without a difference, right? But I'm kind of like...
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Is it just political obsessives who feel this way? I mean, did people's lives really just change? Like, did they change, like, their mindset on this sort of stuff, like, overnight? I don't know.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
You can tell we're millennials with those references. That's good. I know.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And so I don't know if they're snoozing so much as they're not yelling. And I feel like they could probably benefit from some yelling that resonates outside of
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, that goes against, you know, my entire, like, everything in my body wants to reject that. Like, you know, because I'm like, things are as serious, things matter, actually. But it makes me curious about the Fetterman kind of model, because he, like, that's kind of what he's doing, basically, which is, like, mocking...
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
like progressives who are like hyperventilating while like just basically voting with the democrats all the time um and i don't think that every democrat should act like that but i do wonder if there is some potential efficacy to having a couple of democrats out there who have more of a slacker energy to try to break through all right let's take a quick break stay with us
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
The singing. The singing.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I'm open to singing in the right kind of context, you know? I'm open to singing and chants, but, you know, maybe we could work on the language of the chants a little bit.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Maybe not as closely as you, but I have been following it. You're into it. Here's why I'm into it. Hagen Scotton, who is the guy you mentioned, who said that I expect you'll eventually find someone who's enough of a fool or a coward to file your motion. This guy is like a special forces dude. Three brawn stars? I think two, maybe two, whatever. I'll give him a third for this if he only has two.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
but who clerked for... So I believe he was Kavanaugh and Roberts, and then Danielle Sassoon, who's the original person who wrote the letter to Emile Bove, she was Scalia, a Scalia clerk. Both, I mean, both... Like, Scott and his letter... kind of subtly implies that he likes Trump. I forget exactly how he put it, but he was like, I could kind of see the perspective.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
He's like, some people might be quitting because they're really upset with this administration. Like, that's not me. And I kind of see how a businessman could think this was a good deal. It's just not legal. Like, that's like the TLDR summary of his letter. And so the fact that it's these two people who are FedSoc folks who are stepping out
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
We've given, the gays gave away YMCA.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
You know, so they're like conservative legal folks who are just saying no, who are like standing up and saying, I'm not going to go along with this. And I think that's pretty powerful. And it comes at a time when I don't know, at least maybe maybe just me or maybe just bulwark people are like thirsting. for people to be showing a little bit more backbone right now.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And so that's kind of why I've been following it less on like the legal nerd side, but just more on this is kind of how you do it as far as standing up to illiberal actions.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I know, I made it official. It was a long, it was not a, you know, it was not a battle in the culture war we expected. But it was a battle that was thrust upon us. And I think for a moment during the Biden era, we felt like we'd taken YMCA back. from the Magas. And unfortunately, I think that is one L we just have to take.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah. And we also had a U.S. attorney down here in Louisiana who quit. I think that there are a lot of those warning signs happening. I mean, this guy, the character that I've been watching closely in this thing is this, I kind of hate saying his name, Emil Bove. I kind of want to call him like Emil Bove. I don't know. It's kind of a pretentious name for a MAGA.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
But anyway, Bove was the person who in the Sassoon letter, I think the most powerful thing was like in the first footnote where she was like, Someone was taking notes in the meeting where they told us that they were going to, you know, about the deal on the prosecution. And he collected the notes at the end of the meeting, which is like no note taking, which, you know, feels very fascistic.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Though also kind of dumb sort of. And I guess a lot of times fascism is dumb, like dumb. It's like, OK, well, the notes are gone, but I prefer it when it's dumb because at least we can talk about it.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah. And so but he's the same guy. who is at the center of the FBI firings, right?
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And there was a whistleblower, and if you saw that over the weekend, where, you know, they were saying that Kash Patel lied during his confirmation hearing because, you know, the note-taking in that meeting, the FBI meeting, said that Bove had said that Kash Patel had, and Stephen Miller, were the ones that were asking for this.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So they have this, like, kind of henchman in at the DOJ, and so I think that it is pretty... It is good that, you know, because there's always this debate, right? Like, should people like this stay? Would we rather have Hagan, Scott and in there than whoever replaces them?
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It's over now, and the village people and YMCA, despite the fact that that is a song about cruising in gay gyms, the Magas have taken it from us, and I don't think we're ever going to get it back. It's unfortunate. I don't think you're going to hear a lot of YMCA at Gay Pride this year.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And I think that in my view, it's actually better for these folks to, you know, kick up a cloud of dust here and like draw attention to this person so people can watch it. So it's not like happening, you know, behind the scenes and cloak and dagger.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Here's the thing that made me think it might be him. I was reading an article, and that quote is actually from a movie called Waterloo that's not from Napoleon, and it's like,
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I guess. It's like maybe apocryphal. The direct quote is from Waterloo, the movie. The movie was in 1970. And that, to me, feels like it could be a Trump cultural reference. He might have watched a 1970s movie about Napoleon. That feels like the thing he might have watched. But maybe not. I don't know. That was the only... Because I agreed with you. Initially, it did feel Musk-y. But...
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Abracadabra by Lady Gaga instead. I think you'll be hearing a lot of Abracadabra.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So my viewpoint, which is I think different from some of, from like kind of the conventional wisdom among democratic strategists is that like, Maybe in February of 2025, like the right thing to do is to fight these guys tooth and nail and to figure out what happened and figure out how things shake out.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And in 2026 summer, you can decide to be strategic and like figure out which issues are the right ones for the for the electorate. Like we don't fucking know what's going to happen over the next year. So just fight him and try to make him fail.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
my exception to that is like on some of these like there are a couple of policies which is the democrats like obviously got out way too far to the left away from public opinion and i and i just i do think sanctuary cities is one of them i'm i so i i was like the compassionate conservative bush republican i was i'm like about as liberal on immigration as you can get like i was part of the
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
group of Republicans that the Republican voters wanted to overthrow, unlike the kind of McCain view of the world of immigration. So I am extremely sympathetic to immigrants and the plight of immigrants who are fleeing, you know, oppression or
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
fleeing whatever and want to come to america that's what america is about like that said like some of the sanctuary you know like some of the sanctuary city stuff it just got overboard it was just kind of crazy like and i understand there might be like a specific reason why it makes sense to not have ice in the prisons but i just think that like fighting over whether prisoner illegal migrants who committed crimes in this country should be deported is like
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I was in and out. I was watching White Lotus and I was, you know, podcast prepping. So I caught a little bit of it. I really liked a couple of the Eddie Murphy segments. Eddie Murphy being Tracy Morgan was hilarious. Eddie Murphy doing some... borderline inappropriate prison rape jokes with Will Ferrell in, like, one of the very last segments I also really liked. Those were my big takeaways.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
maybe one of the fights, I would say, I think you can take a pass on this one if you're with Democrats. So that would be... That's my view on that.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Here's the other thing. They are going to overstep on immigration. So here's the area where I would say Democrats do not like don't need to be overcautious. Right. Like people do not want dreamers to be deported. Right. Like people don't want that.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
People don't want like people who are in this country, you know, whose parents brought them to this country when they're kids, you know, to be deported or to be separated from their families. And there are already a couple of examples of like very sympathetic people.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Um, individuals who are being either detained by ice, like one, like there was like a guy in Newark who is a veteran who is like detained by ice.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Um, and so I, I think that, that there are going to be ways to fight immigrate, you know, immigration from a humanitarian standpoint that, um, are beneficial for Democrats and, and they should choose those fights rather than fighting over whether prison deportations happen or not under the administration. Yeah.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And this is, to me, and this is what I would say, local is fine, but what you're doing is, I think, probably the most useful. Like, on Fox and on conservative media platforms and on culturally conservative platforms, again, people have this totally wrong view of what, like, the Manosphere podcasters think about all this stuff. They're like Bernie bros. Yeah.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah, like you give specific examples like the ones you're giving like they're 80% issues like people do not want most people besides racist and like extreme, you know, far right freaks do not want people detained for speaking Spanish in this country like that is not something that is popular actually.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And so if you can focus on a couple of those examples and bring them in to the lion's den, I think that is a much more useful way to spend time than having a press conference on the Hill. I know Jared Moskowitz I saw was on Fox over the weekend. I just think that more is more on this stuff.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah. Well, it's to God's ears. But yeah, the prime example of this that I saw recently was Zelensky did the Lex Friedman interview. And like if you just look at the comments on Lex Friedman's YouTube, which is like he is he's like MAGA in the Musk way. Right. Like he is like contrarian or whatever. He's not like a far right. He's not like a social conservative. You know what I mean?
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Like he's like a contrarian. So he's in that sort of ecosystem. And so it's like that is a mostly anti-Ukraine ecosystem. Right. Zelensky does the interview and like there were a lot of people in the comments. So we're just kind of like, huh? Like, like, oh, I was expecting to hate him a lot more or he made a couple of points, you know, like, so anyway, it's worth doing that.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I'm anti-Cuomo. I think that he handled COVID atrociously in addition to just all of his personal misdeeds. I maybe have some personal bias. I've got some friends who are in conflict with Andrew Cuomo, let's just say. And so I think he's kind of a creep. I will say, though... Like, Democrats need more people who are like Cuomo who talk normal.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And he talks Italian, but you can tell he's being authentically himself. He doesn't talk like a fucking valedictorian kid that's trying to appease the bosses in a PowerPoint presentation. And I think that Democrats could learn from that. And I don't, you know, I don't I'm no fan of his in particular, but I think that that is people want it.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I won't I wouldn't be surprised if he's successful in the mayor's race.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I missed that clip, though. Oh, you've got to watch it. I will immediately be going to the internet after this to watch that.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah, there's no future. Yeah, there's no future. There's no present. Look, I felt this way for a while. I'll give you a little scoop. I don't know if this is a scoop. Anybody who cares about me would care about this. Nobody else would. But I was planning on writing a book that was the shorthand pitch for it was Trump is forever. I felt like the Republican voters want Trump or something like it.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Whatever comes after Trump, if he ever goes away, will obviously not be a carbon copy of him because he has a lot of unique traits and eccentricities. You've seen how hard it is to copy him at the local level and how that has failed in a lot of ways with Carrie Lake and others. But
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
How'd I do in the banter section?
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
but directionally like the idea that of america first of fighting these culture war battles of not caring about norms and institutions and you know not caring about like the traditional you know free markets and free people ethos of the 80s and 90s 2000 republicans like all of that is gone right um and it was already going to be gone even if kamala harris had won
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
um because that's just what that parties are just parties are not actually permanent coherent ideological groups they are a reflection of a group of people and that group of people can change over time and it might change them up might change the nature of the party and trump has massively changed the makeup of the republican party and as a result that will be in his image for at least you know until the next realignment for probably a quarter century or something so i
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I just think that is what's happening. I think that there'll be individual fights on the outskirts, right? Like you mentioned this Wall Street Journal article, which was an attack on him over tariffs and pushing for lower interest rates given threats for inflation.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
You know, if we get into a more normal future in 2028 where Trump doesn't try to run again and like, you know, there's a primary, there will be some people who are like Trumpy or pro-tariff and there'll be some people who are more traditional, free market, conservative on trade. And on some of those issues, you know, it won't. always fall on the Trump side of the line.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I think that there will still be little skirmishes in the ideological coalition, but directionally, things are to Trump. And people, nobody is going to stand up to him except for people like Mitch McConnell, who are already one foot out the door. And that's basically what we've seen for like a decade now.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah, and the Joni Ernst thing with Hegseth was the, was really, you know, I think the test case, yeah, for this, I mean, I was in Iowa, so I worked in Iowa on a couple campaigns. I was in Iowa, um, uh,
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
like during when all this was happening it was like about then i was like at a event with a lot of republicans um and uh and you know it was like in between when she had spoken out and when she had kind of folded right and there to a to a person i could not find a person at this event that thought she was going to hold the line eventually and there were some very pro-joni people there right and and to people who like her and wish she would have held the line like across the board maga to people who are like me who are elapsed everybody thought no because
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
the voters wanted you know want trump to get what he wants like that's what they want and so she was just getting totally bullied online phone calls and i think the other senators really saw that i think in addition to that i do think these private meetings trump and then basically said to the nominees just tell these people whatever they want to hear who cares we'll figure it out on the back end right again because these are not rigid ideologues like it's it's that is not what trump is
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So I think that helped, you know, give a rationale to some of these senators to do the easy thing. And I also just, Jesse, I just fundamentally don't think anybody was going to actually stand up besides McConnell, who's one step out the door. And Murkowski and Collins will choose their spots because they have kind of a different sort of brand.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Everybody else, I was with Gates at a TPUSA, I go to the TPUSA annual gathering every year to just kind of Well, you live in Fox World. I don't. I want to make sure I'm not in my little bubble, my little resistance, you know, former.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
No, no, no. No, it's fine. The types of people who go to those sorts of things are the people you got to worry about are the people who are alone in their basement getting radicalized, honestly, like people that show up to a gathering. I've at least I found them to be relatively sociable. I had a few people shit talk me, but I never felt unsafe.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
That's hilarious. So anyway, I was with Gates and I was like, why did you drop? Like I was like, because I think that you were going to get through. And Gates was like, well, John Curtis, the guy from Utah who replaced Mitt, told me, and it wasn't an interview, so I wasn't taping it, so I forget the exact line, but it was something like, I would sacrifice my children before I would confirm you.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It was some very ostentatious comment. And so Gates was like, I didn't think it was clear I wasn't going to get through. And I said to him, I was like, eh, Curtis would have folded. And I like really think I'm right about that. Like I do think that there is a lot of behind the scenes people, you know, trying to use a little influence they can without creating any backlash.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Like when push comes to shove, like the voters are where their voters are. And so like that is why you're not seeing anybody like the Todd Youngs of the world actually stand up.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
That's a popular opinion of me. I say that to Republicans I talk to all the time. Fewer and fewer of them actually want to talk to me. So, you know, maybe that's part of why my influence isn't working. But I'm like, you don't have to be me. Like, I'm not asking Republican senators or congressmen to troll Trump online, you know, to try to own him, you know, to like fight everything.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Like, there's a huge space between me and like total submission. And it's just like they've kind of decided to abandon that whole space. Like, there's just nobody that is... decided to try to occupy that and succeed. And I think that's wrong. I think people could, I mean, Collins, I guess, is the example.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Like, I don't really love Susan Collins or everything that she's done, but she did manage to occupy that space in between total never-Trumper and total Trump sycophant. And it worked for her.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
She was like the only senator, well, this cycle a couple happened, but before, you know, during the first Trump, she was the only senator that won and went the opposite way as the state, you know, in 2016 and 2020.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
No, I think that was a worthwhile use of dollars for Sarah Gideon. I don't know if you gave any money to Jamie Harrison or that might have been a waste.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I loved it. Good to be here. We'll do it again soon. Peace. Bye.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Well, as a, I guess, cradle neocon, I don't know if the neocons exist anymore. I have a ton of thoughts about this. First, just really quick, because I think it's got lost, and I'm obsessed with the crypto element of everything that's happening. The hostage trade, or
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
What got missed was the person that got let out on our side was like one of the original crypto scammers who was running a massive crypto scam that allowed Russia to, you know, avert sanctions, you know, by paying for things, you know, using crypto rather than, you know, cash and going through the regular banking system.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I only say that just because everybody should just like make a mental note of that. Because I think that the crypto corruption that is coming over the next four years might end up being one of the biggest stories that happen.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Well, no, it's related. The Trump coin, it's all related, right? Like, I mean, Trump launches this coin.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah, for sure. And so obviously, they're bad people getting traded and all these things like Victor Boot got traded during the Biden administration. So I and I'm happy Mark Fogel is home.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
So it's like less a commentary on like the particular trade than just like it's interesting where the priorities were like that the first Russian person out is this crypto scammer person doing the deal Steve Witkoff, his son is business partners with the Trump kids on their crypto scam, right? So That's not a coincidence. I'm not the always sunny guy putting yarn against the wall here.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It's a pretty direct connection directly to Trump's pocket. The broader deal, the sad part about this is that we appear to be on the side of the bad guys. I think that J.D. did some tough talk, but what is happening is we have this meeting in Saudi that you referenced. The Ukrainians aren't even invited. We're having a bilateral with the Russians.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
who invaded Ukraine and who we are sanctioning currently to try to cut a deal that Ukraine isn't even at the table for. And Europe is having a separate, you know, the Europeans are having a separate meeting at the same time. As you mentioned, Keir Starmer, like the UK is out there saying, we're going to put boots on the ground, if necessary, peacekeeping troops to support Ukraine.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And so like in this moment, like we're getting some mixed signals from the That we're sympathetic to the invaders, to the autocrats, to the people that were attacking a free democratic country. Whatever you thought bad about American foreign policy in the past, this is a massive shift. This is not just a bad judgment call.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
It's the fact that it seems like that we're supporting the countries that are in conflict with what the American values have been in the post-World War II era. So like at the top level, like that is the thing to me that's the most striking.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And when you looked at these press conferences, both Hegseth and Trump, I can't remember if Vance was asked this, but definitely Hegseth and Trump were asked, you know, as part of these negotiations, what are you asking Russia to give up? And neither of them could answer. Hegseth gives like a two minutes of gobbledygook because you know that he couldn't come up with anything.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And Trump starts attacking Europe. during the answer to that question. And so I just think that kind of tells you all you need to know.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Are you and Pete pals? Were you guys drinking buddies?
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
No, I mean, Rubio has been basically a full-throated defender of the Trump push on this. And that pivot for him has been, you know, kind of happening gradually over time since 2016 when he was, you know, kind of the candidate that was running for You know, the most maybe even more than like the most W with like the most Bush compassionate conservatism like type platform of any of the candidates.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And so, you know, no, who knows what how things actually go. I guess it's better that Rubio is there in Saudi Arabia than some of the other potential people who could be there from the Trump orbit. Maybe there are things happening on the margins there. that matter.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And like you said, Waltz was a very traditional, you know, type of, you know, type of Republican in the House as far as foreign policy is concerned. And I interviewed Tom Malinowski, the Democrat from New Jersey last week, who's a pretty kind of hawkish Democrat.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
And so he was like, when I got to Congress, I was looking to Republicans that I could work with, like where we might have some overlap on foreign policy. And And he was like, Waltz and Stefanik were the two people that I turned to. And he's like, Stefanik has totally gone native with the MAGA. And he's like, it appears like Waltz is doing the same. So we'll see. How things shake out this week.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
But the signs are not positive. And it's really a sign of kind of submission to the Trump worldview from all these folks.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't see us as the top partner opportunity either if I was him. Yeah. No, I think Europe will. I think it could be a positive outcome.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
growth of like the the trump worldview that europe ends up you know stepping up their game on defense and you know takes more responsibility and it's not like they i don't want to say they're not taking any responsibility for their own defense but but actually you know sort of take seriously the act that they might have to go it alone at some point and you've seen this from people from europeans at the munich security conference leader nato said something to this effect
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
which was pretty, uh, secretary general rather, uh, which is pretty alarming. So I think that that's possibly positive, but like, okay, that has potential massive negative ramifications for us. You know, I mean, I was, um, Let me pull this up. There was a woman who is a journalist in Ukraine whose quote just really kind of dropped me on my feet over the weekend. She said this.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
Her name is Anna Merlikina. She was from Mariupol and had to flee to Kiev. She said, when you live in a world that is crumbling under your feet, the only thing that helps you survive is to believe in guidelines and civilized democratic countries that uphold values. When countries like the United States cease to be pillars, there is nothing to hope for.
The Prof G Pod with Scott Galloway
Raging Moderates: What’s Trump’s Endgame in Ukraine?
I mean, that is a jaw-dropping quote from somebody over in Ukraine. And I just think that's reflective of how people in Europe are going to see us. And I just believe that there'll be negative ramifications for that down the line. We don't exactly know how or when. But, you know, I think that Europe will kind of decide that they should be prepared to go without us.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Another news item I really want to spend some time on is a gentleman by the name of Darren Beatty. I don't know which one it is. It doesn't really matter. He's the new acting Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy. I want to go through the hit list here on Beatty, and then we'll kind of tie it back to the point you're making. Beatty loves to tell people to take a knee.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
I want to see if you can notice any trend here. Well... Here's our new acting Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy. Tim Scott needs to learn his place and take a knee to MAGA. Black Lives Matter must take a knee to MAGA. Ibram Kendi must take a knee to MAGA. Kay Coles-James of Heritage Foundation needs to learn her natural place and take a knee to MAGA.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
I know, I'm not about healing through pain. No, thank you for saying that. Yeah, it's partially schadenfreude. It's partially just kind of like the, you know, solace and knowing that you are correct. The solace and knowing that... We weren't leading people astray. There's something to that. There's a little bit of joy in seeing other people's pain.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Any guess on the race of Kay Coles-James, Will? Uh, let me guess. Uh, it has to do with Ebony. Yeah. Yes. There you go. Black. Yeah. Uh, Tim Scott, Katie Coles, James conservatives. They need to take a knee. They need to learn their place, natural place and take a knee to MAGA. So this guy is really, uh, he was fired from the first Trump administration for his associations with white nationalists.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
He was one of the only people too racist to be fired from the first Trump administration. He's been brought back, uh, He's also pro-Uyghur genocide, essentially, or at least a big excuser of the Uyghur genocide. And talking about how he said that we treat American rural whites worse than China treats the Uyghur minority. And then this takes us to South Africa.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
There's an interesting statement from Trump this morning, from Trump yesterday morning, rather. South Africa is confiscating land and treating certain classes of people very badly. It is a bad situation that the radical left media doesn't want to so much as mention. The United States won't stand for it.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
I will be cutting off all future funding to South Africa until a full investigation of this situation has been completed. Beatty had said this in the past, the whole concept of modern South Africa is absurd, doomed to fail from the beginning. South Africa was the first modern nation to be refounded on the anti-white principles of critical race theory.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Musk is also from South Africa, you might remember, and his attack on USAID may also have something to do with his feelings about the South African leadership. USAID had spent a lot of money helping black folks suffering from apartheid in South Africa. So, I mean, it's not exactly subtle, Will. No, it's not.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Yeah, I don't know. The Marco Rubio side of it is pretty interesting to me, too. See, he had to hire Beatty, right? And Marco Rubio ran in 2016, as I recall, on kind of a compassionate conservatism updated platform. And Marco Rubio has hired the guy who said that Kay Cole's James of the Heritage Foundation needs to learn her natural place and take a knee to MAGA.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
But the bad people, the MAGA people, there will be some collateral damage, unfortunately. That's not what I'm happy about. But just their failures is kind of giving me a little joy. No, is that wrong?
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
And this is the type of person that Marco wants as his undersecretary, somebody who is posting just the most overt, obvious, racist, vile things. over and over again about conservative black leaders. I, you know, not that it's okay to do racist stuff about Ibram Kendi, but like this guy is so through the looking glass that he's posting racist shit about Tim Scott and Kate Cole's James.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
And Marco is like, I want this man to be my undersecretary. I just think that the degree of the corruption, the corruption of the soul of these people is, is pretty remarkable. Right.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
I mean, it's his undersecretary.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
I guess. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's their version of DEI. Remind me, what's the job that Beatty's getting here? Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
I was looking for that chilling on the beach vibe on Saturday night because I was over at my buddy's house. I had a big day ahead of me Sunday. Lots happening out there in the news. You know, didn't want to deal with the hangover. We had the kids running around. You know what a nice thing to do is when you have seven-year-old girls running around screaming, pretending like they're cats?
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
A gummy that gives you that chilling on the beach vibe. Now, I'm not a quad man, so be careful out there, everybody. You know, for me... maybe just a five milligram. That'll do the trick. Come home, watch some severance, watch a little bit of nuggets on DVR, big win over the Hornets made for a nice little evening, pleasant evening, a little break from everything that was happening on the news.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
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Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Yeah.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
That's 30% off your order using code THEBULLWORK. One last time, GetSold.com and code THEBULLWORK for 30% off. I want to go back to Elon. We mentioned this, but the Treasury story? It's really something. I mean, Doge, I guess, and Elon now with the approval of incoming Treasury Secretary Scott Besant, who everybody told me was the normie. This is the guy we don't have to worry about.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
I don't know. Personal validation. Yeah. All that matters is solipsism. All that matters is having my own brain. Okay, I knew that you'd be on the other side of that, but I figured some of the listeners would be on my side. I'm enjoying it. There's another thing. It was related. I don't know. Ezra Klein, you might have heard of him.
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I guess he's given Elon carte blanche to... interfere in the payment system. Among the things that he said that he wants to put a stop payment on is payment to Lutheran religious services because the Lutheran services, they're providing services for immigrants. Obviously, we wouldn't want to do that. So, you know, the
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The Christian, the presidency, the presidency brought in by Christians who, you know, great evangelical Christians like Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell Jr. They're shutting down all payments to the Lutheran religious services. Anyway, JVL has kind of an even darker take on what's happening.
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He writes this, Elon Musk allegedly has control of the system the US government uses to disperse congressionally mandated payments. Musk claims that he's personally putting a stop to payments he does not like. First, this obviously could not happen unless the FBI had been neutered because these actions are badly illegal.
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Of course, if the DOJ and FBI refuse to investigate the crimes, are they really crimes at all? But then he goes on to talk about how, you know, Musk wants X to be a payment system. And his dark vision of what's possibly coming is that Elon wants to get his own private businesses funded. involved in payments from the government.
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You would have said that that was a crazy conspiracy to even suggest, but boy, I don't know what they'd be doing differently if they were planning on doing that. Yeah, well, that's just oligarchy, right?
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So we are messaging about our topics for today. You know, the worse than Watergate conversation. firings at the FBI, shuttering of USAID, this racist that's going to the Secretary of State, Elon taking over the Treasury, let's see, the January 6th pardon guys raping people, the tariff, the trade war, et cetera, et cetera. So we were discussing potential topics.
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He's kind of a minor columnist, and we might have him on the pod again soon. He had a piece over the weekend that said this. Trump is acting like a king because he's too weak to govern like a president. He's trying to substitute perception for reality. He's hoping that perception then becomes reality.
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You said to me, also the outrage is not high enough about what he's doing on DEI. So I just figured I'd let you cook on that for a little bit too.
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He did explicitly, like he was citing people with mental health issues and paraplegics and other weird stuff like that. But yeah, I mean, the implication is obvious.
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That can only happen if we believe him as part of a longer monologue about just like, this is not actually the actions of somebody who is going to take over the government in a gradual and effective way.
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Well, maybe if we had more Aryans like Darren Beatty watching, you know, air traffic control, we might be in a better place. I don't know. But I wanted to let you cook on that because obviously it's racist and horrible. And I think that additionally, though, it will be illegal the way that they're targeting individuals who work in the government, who are career officials.
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You know, we already saw the one example. I think I talked on a past podcast about Dan Crenshaw. putting up a picture of a black woman and noting that she had changed her bio to take out DEI and basically saying this woman should be fired, essentially. So there's going to be racist targeting of that. I worry a little bit about the Democrats' response to this.
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We're going to spend a lot of time all week on all the horrors that the Republicans are inflicting on Americans. But the Democrats had an election over the weekend where they were going to choose who was going to lead the party in opposition to this. They chose a guy named Ken Martin from Minnesota. He ran what they call the DFL party in Minnesota. He seems like a fine enough person, I guess.
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I don't know. He doesn't exactly seem like the knife in his teeth attack dog that I might have wanted for the job. I don't know him that well. Leading up to his election victory, there was a debate that happened. And I want to play a clip from the debate and then discuss something that was really...
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So for people listening, everybody raised their hand. Ken Martin, who presented up winning, was like the most excited with the hand raise. And he was like pumping his hand up to that question. Jonathan Capehart says they all win in that answer. Okay. I mean, okay. I want to get to that in a second.
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There's another segment where there's a question from somebody in the audience about whether the DNC needed to have a permanent seat or at-large seat for somebody who's transgender. There's another question about whether they needed Muslim affinity groups to do outreach to the Muslims.
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Everybody on stage, all the different candidates supported both of those objectives, except for one person, Faze Shaker, who was Bernie's campaign manager. So here I am handing it to Bernie's campaign manager. But he was like, I don't know, I think maybe we should focus a little less on this stuff and obsess on this stuff a little bit less.
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These are the actions of somebody that doesn't know what they're doing and is trying to continue the fraud that he's perpetrated on the country for a long time that covers up his fundamental political weakness. What's it to you to Ezra's positive spin? These are the last two positive items of the podcast. Just saying.
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And so, anyway, Will, I made you as homework watch some of this, and I'm wondering what you think. Because I was not seeing a party that learned a lot from their defeat when I was watching this candidate forum.
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I mean, what you want from the leader of the DNC in this moment is somebody that's going to be the tip of the sphere in taking the fight to Donald Trump. And there was just very little of that. Again, besides FaZe, who I thought was really good, who's talking about what – and I'm trying to get him on the pod – but what he thinks the DNC could do from a communication standpoint better.
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There just was a lot of caring about the internal nonsense that nobody cares about besides random people who are obsessed with Democratic Party internal politics. I understand that it's an internal debate. And I think at a time when the stakes are lower, or back in 1998, I don't know if it was that big of a deal who the DNC chair was, and they could all hash out their own internal disagreements.
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But there is a vacuum right now. And the vacuum needs to be filled by somebody on the left who is capable of being the torchbearer in the fight against Trump. And these guys just weren't it. I want to play one more clip from the outgoing. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to obsess about the identity thing here. Well, but like somebody has to say it like they need to learn about something.
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And so I want to play Jamie Harrison, the outgoing DNC chair. This is him in his intro to talking about the. I guess it was the rules of the vice chair race for the DNC and making sure they had the right representation.
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That goes on for another 90 seconds. I spared you the last 90 seconds, but that goes on for another 90 seconds. Is this fucking Portlandia? What are we doing here? Does the DNC need full balance between male, female, and non-binary representation on every committee? If there's a great non-binary candidate to be the vice chair of the DNC, that's awesome. I'm fine with that, Sarah McBride.
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Transgender congresswoman, she seems great. Put her forth. I support that. But what are they doing? Stop obsessing over this shit. Stop. Just stop. You can care about representation and making sure that people are at the table without making yourself into a caricature that makes the country laugh at you.
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Like the object of the DNC right now is to build a party that can take on Donald Trump and the aspiring authoritarian that we just went over all the things that they're doing to try to make this an authoritarian country. The opposition needs to be up for that fight, not like obsessing over which committee has the right number of non-binary Native Americans. OK, we got to stop.
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Yes.
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Snow is our care. It's absurd. We need two of every race and gender, you know, two of every sexual identity. We need two intersex, two bisexuals. We need two of everything.
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That is not true, though. Well, it is the essence of the party. Was Jamie Harrison up there talking about how we need to make sure that there's a vice chair that didn't go to college or that there's a vice chair from... communities that have been hollowed out by the economic crisis. I don't fucking know. You show people what you care about by what you talk about.
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That's how you show people what you care about. And the Democrats over and over show people what they care about is identity politics, making sure everybody has a seat at the table. They just... I'm sorry. That is it. The Republicans don't do this. They don't have this happening at their meetings. And people notice that. There's crazy stuff that happens at Republican meetings. Yeah, of course.
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Well, four years later, people have people are stupid and have short memories. But yeah, they didn't think so at the time.
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Yeah, of course. There's other crazy shit that the Republicans have. The Republicans have plenty of baggage that they have to carry. Yeah. Why? What is the value of this?
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I'm sorry. I don't you don't think that that's happening in meetings at Democratic HQ, that there are people in private like trying to discuss on the strategy of like, oh, we got to make sure that we're representing. I do think I do think it is impacting their strategy. I don't think that there's anybody in these rooms that are working class Americans that did not go to fucking fancy schools.
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Like, I just don't think there is. I think that the rooms are full of people that care about this like campus politics shit. Like, on balance. I don't think that's true.
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Right, he was the last person. He entered the race at the end because he was like, somebody has to, like... talk different.
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No, they can talk about it in a way that's normal. They can talk about it in a way that normal people talk about shit. If you wanted to say at that forum, it is outrageous that Donald Trump is kicking out of the military. people that are transgender, that volunteered to serve, and that this fucking keyboard jockey that ducked
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The military, because he had fake bone spurs in his feet, is now trying to tell a patriotic transgender American that they have to be kicked out of the military to appease some like 22-year-old racists on Reddit? Great. Say that. Have passion in your gut for protecting people and for defending people.
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But like, don't just like talk about how, oh, oh, you know, we need to make sure that the AANHPI committee has enough influence, you know, and is that like, you know what I mean? Like, there's ways to talk about it that they tell how they talk about it on Portlandia. And there are ways to talk about protecting trans people in the way that they would talk about it at a dinner table in America.
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Yeah.
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Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. But it would be fine for me if I felt like they were at least doing their best. I want them to defend people. Marginalized people should be defended. What I don't want is stupid tokenism because they think that it's helping people when it's actually just hurting them. Okay. Final thing. Very important topic.
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Luka Doncic got traded to the LA Lakers, which is madness for anybody who pays attention to the NBA. At the worst, you could say he's the fourth best player in the NBA. He might be the second best player in the NBA. They traded him to the fucking Lakers, who always get the best people. For Anthony Davis, who's always hurt, I don't understand it. I feel like we are...
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it's rigged the nba is rigged they're they're upset about the ratings or maybe miriam adelson who's the new owner of dallas maybe there's maybe she is like sabotaging the team this is like what was that movie major league where the owner was trying to sabotage the team maybe she's trying to sabotage the team because mark cuban used to be the owner and he's woke now i don't know
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So, just a little context here.
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Bill Kristol's on vacation. I'm here with my colleague... Will Salatin. What's up, Will?
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I don't know. Who was I talking to this about last night? Oh, I was talking to JJ McCullough. We did a YouTube video on this topic and he's Canadian. He was like, he's like, won't the Magas not care? Even if they're, I guess they're probably not even buying guacamole, whatever, you know, even if their maple syrup for their pancakes is going up and won't they just think that that's,
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It's wrong. And it doesn't make any sense. It's horrible for the Mavericks long-term, so I don't know why they would do it for their franchise. It might make them a little bit better this year, weirdly, just because Luka's been hurt. But... Ah, it's outrageous. It certainly would be the second dumbest thing to the tariffs if it wasn't for this little piece of breaking news I got for you.
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The president of Mexico, Claudia Scheidenbaum, says that she has reached an agreement with Trump to delay the tariff by up to a month. So it will rise to the first dumbest move, the Luca trade, over the tariffs if... The Canada tariffs also get delayed a month after Trump talks to Trudeau. Who knows?
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But that is that's the state of play on our very stable economy with our very stable genius president. So, Will Salatin, do you have any final thoughts on that?
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What a joy. All right. Will Salatin, thanks so much. I'm next. Scott Lincecum. I'm sure you know somebody out there has been a victim of identity theft or had that credit card stolen or been stalked or doxxed. This day and age, making sure that your data is private is critical.
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And as a person who exists publicly, especially someone that shares my opinions online, I'm hyper aware of safety and security. It's easier than ever for people to find personal information about me or you online. All this data hanging out there on the internet can have actual consequences. And that's why I personally recommend Delete.me.
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So take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me, now at a special discount for our listeners. Today, get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and use promo code bulwark at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com.
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Slash Bulwark. Code Bulwark. All right. Hey, everybody. As I mentioned at the end of the Will Salatin interview, Trump backed off of the tariff to Mexico, at least for a month. They kicked it back a month in exchange for, I guess, 10,000 troops, Mexican troops going to the border. So I taped the Scott Lincecum part of this interview about the trade war before that news came out.
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We're going to keep that in here because Scott provides a lot of really kind of interesting analysis of how this stuff works in practice. And, you know, these threats and bluffs and backoffs and, you know, this whole rigmarole, we're going to be living through this for the next few years. So I think it is still very relevant to hear from Scott on what the implications are.
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And as I'm taping this right now, we don't know what, if anything, will happen with the Canadian and China tariffs, whether we'll try to punch those back a month as well or not. So we will see what happens. And we're back with my buddy Scott Lincecum. He's the Vice President of General Economics and Trade at the Cato Institute. He's an adjunct professor at Duke Law School.
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you know, whatever part of Trump's grand plan. And I was like, yeah, but the problem is he got a lot of votes from people that did not have those strong ties, right. That were annoyed by prices and had some, you know, annoyances about the cultural shift left of the Democrats. And maybe they cared about crime or immigration. Right. But like,
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He writes the Capitalism Newsletter for the Dispatch, subtly titled. And he also said, is this right? You're the progenitor of the viral t-shirt, tariffs not only impose economic costs, but also fail to achieve their primary policy aims and foster political dysfunction along the way. You can see why that's a popular t-shirt. Yes.
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Yes. Increasing and increasing as the minutes go by. Well, I wanted to have you on as, you know, a local tariff expert to dig deep on this. The Wall Street Journal called it the stupidest trade war in history. So I'm turning to you for both the kind of the big picture. And now we agree that it's bad. So that part is covered. But like what exactly is happening? And then kind of we'll dig into it.
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The Canadian fentanyl emergency. I've been hearing lots about that.
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There's not. I think we can say at the board that there is not a Canadian fentanyl crisis. I mean, I guess every ounce, every gram of fentanyl that comes across the border is a tragedy, as RFK would say about abortions. But I don't think it rises to the level of crisis.
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there are people that are not in the cult that were for him. And I do think that some of them are going to maybe experience the consequences of the vote, but we'll see.
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We should get into the legal side of this and what legal remedies there are. But just just to be clear on what the political side of this is. I mean, Trump acknowledged what you're saying is that there will be some disruption. He said we may have short term some a little pain. I don't remember him saying that during the campaign, but he acknowledged yesterday that there will be pain for people.
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He said recently, nothing can be done to forestall tariffs. We have very big deficits and tariffs are something that we are doing. Canada has treated us very unfairly. J.D. Vance writes yesterday, spare me the sob story. He's such a dick. Spare me the sob story about how Canada is our best friend. I love Canada and have many Canadian friends. Quick fact check.
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I find that very challenging to believe that J.D. Vance has said.
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But does J.D. has friends that are Canadian? I'd like to see the evidence of that. But is the government meeting their NATO target for military spending? Are they stopping the flow of drugs in the country? I'm sick of being taken advantage of. And these guys are all over the place. Right. I mean, even in their own messaging, like the fentanyl thing is just such an obvious fig leaf.
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He's like he's talking about NATO and all this other shit.
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Yeah, I liked this observation by Brendan Duke. He said it was just three months ago. Trump was green lighting a pipeline from Canada to own the American libs. But now he's starting a trade war with Canada because he says we import too much oil from them. Right. And it is the whole thing is just incoherent. I get it betrays.
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He understands or at least somebody around him understood like the value of of bringing Canadian oil, for the very reason you said, you know, to places where it's geographically convenient and, you know, where it works. But I guess, you know, that is not as important now as the tariff temper tantrum.
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So let's just do 101 here. All right. So the tariff, I was getting a text from a buddy last night. He's like, so who collects the tariff again? Right. I mean, like, we're just trying to, you know, remember our, our, you know, macro 101 from college here. So the tariff at the border, the tariff is actually collected from the importer. Yes. Right.
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So, you know, it's not, it's not as if the Canadian exporter then pays a quarter on every dollar to the US government. The importer pays that when they bring it in. Is that right? Yeah.
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No, he's been texting me. There's definitely no vacation for him mentally, but he does get one day off the podcast. Can I start with something positive, though? Go ahead, man. I don't know if you'll find it positive, but I'm feeling good about a couple of things this morning. All right? Tell me. Here's number one. this is a shit show. This is a total shit show. And I knew it would be a shit show.
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How do those economic ones happen? Like the US, we send them a bill? Like, sorry, you're fucking with us?
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All right. Well, I don't like this roll switch. Okay. I'm the pony. I'm finding the pony. You're trying to bring me into darkness. I don't take it. Just let me have it.
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Well, that'll be great for infrastructure costs and all the issues, yeah.
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I don't, usually.
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It's a guy from Mexico. He's driving up in his truck with avocados. He's crossing the border legally. Is the customs guy counting the avocados and giving him a bill? How does that actually happen?
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Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a pony for me. All right. Things are getting darker from here. So I hope everybody enjoyed that segment. Will, our colleague Bill Kristol, wasn't so much on vacation that he couldn't write a newsletter this morning. He wrote about the scandals that are currently embroiling the administration that are worse than Watergate.
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The guy shipping it in is getting the bill, but I thought the importer was supposed to be paying for it because then they just charge the importer on the back end.
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Okay.
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It'd be kind of awesome. I talked to some mad Canadians last night. So there might be some maple syrup getting chucked across the border.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
So you kind of mentioned this, but what about just the broader structural supply chain challenges, right? Because if you're a U.S. automaker, some of this stuff's coming from China through Mexico to the U.S.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Oh, it's a complex widget. It has a couple different parts. Yeah, a lot.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
He starts with the firings at the FBI for people that have not been following this. There were, I guess, six high-level FBI officials that were involved. escorted out of the building late last week. Then there were other FBI officials that were involved in the Trump administration that they were trying to have relieved of their duties.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
We can say what the fuck here, but yeah, I got a kid.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Well, that's going to do good things for prices, I think. The other funny thing I saw about this, two more funny things I want to share with you. One was they've removed the de minimis exception. Yes. And so this was like, you know, if a Canadian grandma wants to send her American, you know, wants to send a gift. Right. To her grandchild who now lives in Austin.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
They got to pay a tariff on that now. I guess we're going to have external revenue service people like 20 year olds Elon hires from the Reddit message board I guess is going to be going through the mail to figure out if there are any tariffs that need to happen now.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
I just think we're going to take all the people from USAID and we're going to make them border agents.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
But the acting FBI director, Brian Driscoll, actually refused to agree with that request. And in a message to staff on Saturday, he reminded FBI agents of their rights to due process and review in accordance with existing policy and law. We had a letter at the Bulwark this morning that comes from the Society of Former FBI Agents, which is not a group that is particularly political.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
I also like this from Chuck Grassley this morning. He's trying to blame Biden, of course. Biden, inflation increased the input cost to farmers by 20%, including particularly the high prices on fertilizer. So I plead with President Trump to exempt potash from the tariff because family farmers get most of our potash from Canada.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
I was wondering if that was a typo because Chuck Grassley does a lot of typos. I'm not a farm boy. I'm from the suburbs, but my farm husband informs me that potash is a real thing. Yes. And it's in fertilizer. Correct. Correct. And that's a big problem. So now we have individual centers begging Mr. Trump for mercy for random products.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
And I think we found the feature for the-
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
I mean – But Scheinbaum and Trudeau are trying to counteract that by targeting – red state businesses. Yes.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
I did a whole segment on YouTube with our Canadian pal, JJ, that people can go find. I'll put the link in the show notes. And it's – they're hot. They're hot under the collar up there.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
And they are saying that this is an obvious disruption to FBI operations, the degree to which it can't be overstated. The forced retirement of director, deputy director, and now all five executive assistant directors. They say that this extreme disruption is occurring at a time when the terrorist threat around the world has never been greater. It's putting us at great risk.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
So you wrote this one, you think the impact here, if they actually go through with it, could be the biggest one-year tax increase ever?
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Now that's a good place to end. Thanks to Will Salatin, Scott Lincecum. Everybody else, we'll see you back here tomorrow.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
And we have basically, you know, the weekend of the long knives at the FBI. And this is coming to a head with the Kash Patel vote coming up in the Senate.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Yeah, I don't really care if the public cares at this point. It's like, that's a problem for fall of 2026. I think that the substantive element here that you talked about, like at the beginning, is about how scary it is. You were smart to tie this to the pardons, and we had another story out over the weekend. I guess it's the 4th
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Person that was pardoned that has had another altercation with police. This one is Dylan Harrington. He was nicknamed the MAGA Lumberjack. He was arrested for rape. He's raping a woman who is blacked out and did not consent. He had pleaded guilty to assaulting, resisting and impeding officers, was sentenced to 37 months in prison and Trump had pardoned him.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
We told everybody it would. But, you know, there was always a chance that Trump would get in there and, I don't know, decide not to do anything, right? And just kind of bleat and get people to call him sir and not actually do anything and take credit for things that were already kind of percolating positively from the Biden administration. That was one option that could have happened.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
So you have that, you have the paramilitary organization, you said, you have this unlawful firing of career federal law enforcement officials, high level law enforcement officials.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
We talked about this with Andrew Weissman on Friday, just about like how important it is to institutional knowledge to have these people and judgment, you know, given the most challenging cases, we've gotten rid of all those people. And then JVL tied it also to what is happening with Elon Musk, right?
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Where Elon Musk is now taking over the Treasury Department, going into USAID, having his little 20-year-old Doge officials try to bully career officials, get access to classified information, get access to personal financial information. And JVL's point is like, look, if you've cleansed the law enforcement agencies of anyone who would be willing to investigate
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
members of the own administration, then members of your own administration can act with impunity and can commit illegal actions, which Elon Musk is doing. Right. So all of this is an attack on the rule of law.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Yeah, I mean, here's just one example of what was happening with USAID. This is from CNN. Officials with Musk's so-called Department of Government Efficiency sparked a tense clash with USAID administrators over the weekend by demanding access to its physical headquarters and digital systems, threatening to call security when the agency refused.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
The incident led to two more senior USAID security officials being placed on leave, and Doge ultimately succeeded in getting classified information. I mean, like that is... That is Hungary. We're doing this thing where it's like we're having these conversations where it's like, are they on the path to Hungary? Are we on the path to Russia? What are they going to try to do?
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
But instead... We have JVL this morning in the triad predicting a stock market crash. And all the topics we're about to go over is them messing things up. I don't know. Can we not have some pleasure in that? Knowing that they're as bad as we thought they would be?
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Hello and welcome to the Bulldog Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got a two-parter today. I added a bonus segment with Scott Lincecum, who's a trade expert, to talk about the tariffs that are imminent and already rollicking the stock market. But first, it's back for the old-timers, for the OGs. You might remember Will Salatin Mondays. Well, they're back right now.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
How much of this is just PR? How much of this is whatever, Trump bleeding, illiberal things? This is unelected people that I assume don't have security clearances or background checks yet because they're just random officials with Doge going in and bullying existing high-level national security officials with clearances to get classified information.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
And then, obviously, the next step of this is to then shut down USAID, which is coming, which reports say are coming. USAID signs were taken down from the Reagan building. They're going to put it under Secretary of State, I guess. That's blatantly not legal. It is thug autocracy. That's what that is.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Yeah, throw China in there too, obviously.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
Well, go ahead and continue down that path, because you said you wanted to talk about the geopolitics of the trade wars. And obviously, we'll get into this more with Scott, but that all ties together, right?
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence | E333
I mean, this is an effort to completely isolate America from our allies, from having influence in parts of the world where there's competition for influence with the more authoritarian regimes, right? And the trade war is directly connected to shutting down USAID in that sense. And it's also directly connected to the coming threats to NATO that we're going to be seeing in the coming months.