Tim Miller
Appearances
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 932
What do you think about going to a porn store five nights a week with a pizza? He brings the pizza into the porn store, goes into the back room, and he's there every night.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 932
What was he watching back there, do you think? I don't know. Have you ever been in a back room at a porn store? Never one time? Are you sure? Even before the internet? Even before Pornhub?
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
Doesn't this kind of just the way you describe it then just made me like really see that it's illuminating the possible shared reality that might not be aligned. So one person might be in a different place connectivity wise to their other partner and And that is why the conflicts happen, because maybe the 90 percent of the time Glennon and I are fine.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
It's because we are connected and we do trust each other and we do give each other the benefit of the doubt. And then this other period of time, maybe one partner feels a little less connected. And so when these moments happen, it's like, what is not just the wound, but like, what is the actual state of where we are as a couple?
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
The way that you explained it made me think of like creativity on one end of the spectrum and And reality and truth on the other. So you're saying an artist, their job is to look out and see what is true, what is happening, and to be extraordinarily honest.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
And I think that that's one of the things that I think about you that I respect and admire so much is your ability to see what is happening and to be honest about it. So many of us, myself included... We walk around the world and I want to pretend that reality is somewhere more in the middle, in between a beautiful version, a different version of heaven. And then artists live on the truth side.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
And what you're saying is the vision is over on the other side of the spectrum. And the anxiety, I think, lives when you are just in the noticing of what is. rather than trying to go and create what it could be. So does this make any sense? There's a spectrum and one side is the way things are and the other side is the way things could be.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
And that gap is where some artists might experience this anxiety where you're closer to the way things are before we get to the way things could be.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
One thing I remember was a concern of yours when you were at the early stages of your eating disorder diagnosis and the recovery was this kind of,
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
correlation between anxiety and creativity and that when you are tapped into this kind of anxiety and depression and all of that comes with it, I think that there was a part of you because you're an artist and you do kind of, and have kind of swayed between these two poles. I think you were nervous if you were going to actually get well and maybe you
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
deal with this anxiety and depression, that would there be any creativity left? Could you muster the creativity? Is the anxiety something inside of you that's creating the creativity?
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
I think that this is like really interesting and helpful the way that you're kind of framing it, Sissy, and you too, Glennon. And I think one of the things that I've noticed in our marriage that this happens to us because Glennon also likes to have fun and the wit and who can like land the thing the fastest, like that's part of our marriage dynamic.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
And I think that rather than focusing on for us... Hold on a second.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
No, I think that we do have a way with each other that the way we... Sometimes we tease and we like have fun and... I do. I think that we're like playful with each other. 90% of the time. Here we go. It lands. And then there's this 10% gray area where it doesn't.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
And Susie, I love that you're talking about the specificity of some of this like jokey, teasy behavior, because I think that's really helpful. I also think that sometimes the 10% gray area just has to do with where we are both at in our collective day, in our collective emotional state. And so it's this being in touch with your partner. And sometimes Glennon will have to say like, I'm in the 10%.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
And so it's like really helpful for me to be like, okay, like, cool it on any kind of jokesies. Or teasing. Or teasing thing.
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
Yeah, well, this is what I was going to say. I think it's important to actually think about the way in which we're all trying to connect in this jokey, teasy way. Because I think all of us tend to do it
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
But what I have actually figured out, which is maybe why you don't think that we tease or joke very much, it's because I actually think that the teasing and joking is trying to communicate something actually real without saying, that really bothers me. It's a cover. And then the partner gets defensive, like, no, I was just joking. Were you?
Savage Lovecast
Savage Lovecast Episode 953
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
systems you know talking about who knows what's going to be happening with this bird flu going around like the other services i got news for you there are a lot of red state mega americans that rely on various government services in different ways right and i think this like the way in which they're going about this i think betrays a misunderstanding of something that trump like just kind of got instinctively and that they don't because they have an actual ideological perspective
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
We also just went through sequestration, by the way. You know what I mean? If we're going to get really nerdy about the budget stuff, like the real budget problems are the big ticket items, right? Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Defense.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
So I know a stray as well. I don't know. You know, we're just, we can't help the people. So maybe we're going to help the feline community. All right. You've got a new pod. I do. Mona Charon show. I've had a couple of episodes now. So I want to give you a chance to talk about that, what the goal is, and then we'll get into the parade of horror. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
We already sort of did the, again, there's more stuff that could be cut, but like the sequestration that happened 10 years ago sort of covered a lot of the doge, the things that would be under the doge remit. I did want to bring this up. So we both have been kind of dancing around it. I had Chris Hayes on yesterday. I've got my friend Tehran Tommy Vitor on tomorrow.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
So I was like, we've, we're sandwiched. We got libs all around us. And so I did want your kind of perspective on this. Like, I don't know. My conservative muscles were flexing a little bit when it came to the letter goes out from Elon or not from Elon, but from Elon, you know, that's saying people, all right, you got to actually come into the office to work.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
And if you don't want to come into the office to work, then that's fine. We'll pay you an eight month severance.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
and you can leave and there's a lot of outrage about this and there's a little part of me that was like i don't know it seems like it seems like a pretty good deal it seems like a pretty good deal i don't know there are other problems with it but i just i'm wondering are there any any of your uh your conservative muscles flexing when you're hearing stuff like that
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Yeah, just do it. No, but they can't. They can't. Because again, it goes back to the contradictions of Trumpism. There's certain stuff that is liked in a lot of this. Yeah, I'm with you. Just so my position is clear on all this. There's some really dumb DEI stuff. We've been covering this. I do think that, and again, it's like terms, what rubric.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
There's some value in the federal government in certain elements of this, right? Like the CIA needs people that can speak different languages, right? The FBI, it should be good for them to have a leadership program. for people that come from marginalized communities, from urban centers. Like there's certain elements of it that are pernicious and certain that are good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Yeah, and I feel this way about the firings too. Like if there were actual smart people and experts, if they're going to do this how they did it and, you know, The fucking American president or in the Clinton administration or in the right. You know what I mean? Like Democrats used to do this, right? They would be like, we're going to bring in experts. We're going to review the books.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
You know, we're going to look at to see, you know, which of these programs are outdated or not or not efficient anymore, not working. We're going to offer people severance and let them go. Sure. I'm for all that. I'm for all that. It is that these guys have taken that from us because what they are trying to do with this is not actually make the government more efficient.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
They're trying to bully good and smart people out of the government so that they can replace them with Buckley Carlson, Tucker's son, or whoever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
All right. There you go, people. Sorry. You have to hear about entitlement reform if you're going to come to the Bulwark podcast. All right. You got Tommy tomorrow. Okay, Libs. All right. We're going to do a little entitlement reform once a week. You also wrote this week about birthright citizenship. I did want to just talk to you about that just briefly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Because the way that I was drawn to conservatism, like birthright citizenship was so entwined in kind of like me as an 80s, 90s kid growing up, like the conservative worldview, right? It's like this, the shining city on the hill, the greatness of America. We want people to come here. Like that was just really directly to me tied with my identification with why this was, you know, an appealing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
movement and it is now like that part is just gone now and so i was just interested in hearing you kind of talk about that because i think to some people particularly younger people if you're one of those kids of the mega tp usa thing that i went to the culture is so changed and the rhetoric has so changed around conservative politics that it's probably hard for them to even understand why a conservative would be for birthright citizenship you know um so anyway i just wanted to hear you riff on the article a little bit
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Did you see, just really quick on this, did you see Caroline Leavitt yesterday? That was the first press conference.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
I got to give her one thing. She was much better than Spicer. Okay. So kudos to you for being much better than Spicer. And she also, this will be just for my elder millennial listeners, Mona, so I don't know if you ever watched Cruel Intentions, but She has the Sarah Michelle Gellar vibe from Cruel Intentions just down totally.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
I will say, I don't think that she has, in the movie, Sarah Michelle Gellar had in the cross necklace cocaine that she would do to kind of drive home the point about how fake it was. I'm not accusing Caroline of that. But besides that, she had the whole vibe down. But anyway, she just bluntly was like, yeah, this administration sees birthright citizenship as unconstitutional. It's like, what?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
All right. We've got to move on to the hearings we've got coming this week. I don't know if I've played the ranking game with you. Meg Seth's already in, unfortunately, so he's off of the board. But we've got Kash Patel, Tulsi, and RFK. If you had a magic wand and you got to protect the country from one of them, who would be first, who would be second, and who would you stick us with?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
The most recent one, which I was listening to, is Steve Vladek. It was interesting because he got into the legal questions of it all. There's just so much happening right now. We had the article this morning in the Bullard from Don Kettle. There's just this high-speed power grab. It's hard to keep track of everything. Part of that is because a lot of the stuff is going to get challenged.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
All right, we've got RFK today. As I mentioned at the top, we'll have a live debrief, a TNL live debrief on YouTube tonight at 8 p.m. And you can get that on the Next Levels feed tomorrow. But I want to just play for you a little bit, you know, maybe a little highlight reel of RFK.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
I love that one at the end. It's beyond his expertise. He floats the fact that our blood-brain barriers are being opened by the Wi-Fi. And in an interview with him, he's like, it's kind of beyond my expertise. And that sort of sums it up, right? I have a just-asking-questions conspiracist who's going to be in charge of the health department of the U.S., I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
How was life expectancy back then? Was it better or worse than now?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
We actually have a clip of that. Let's just listen to a little bit of that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
What were your main takeaways from that conversation with Steve?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln. Yeah. Whoa. She goes on to talk about his drug problems and says that he got over them, but many of our family members that he exposed to the drugs did not. And talks about his weird animal killing fetishes. And she also gets into the money. aspect of it and how he's conflicted.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
What a piece of... I just want to say I've been keeping a scorecard over here. One full curse for Mona, two near curses. Zero for me so far.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
It does remind me of the... It wasn't included in the mashup. My favorite Bobby Kennedy... is related to him vaccinating his own kids, is the time that he talks about how he goes hiking in LA and he goes up to strangers with children and tells them not to vaccinate their children. That is insane. Over the bear killing and the petting of the whales and all the, like the vaccine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Like to me, it's just like to go up to a mother with a baby and accost them about vaccination status. I don't, for whatever reason, that is the one to me that is the worst.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Well, I'm monitoring closely the senator from my state now, Louisiana, Dr. Bill Cassidy. I expect nothing. I expect him to go along and rubber stamp this. But I do want to say, people are like, there's no other alternative option. Cassidy, in Louisiana, we have a top two primary situation. So it's like kind of a different system where it's a jungle primary. Everybody votes. Oh, that's good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Cassidy voted to convict Trump. Yes. So I think Cassidy is boned. no matter what, if it's a straight Republican primary situation. People don't mention him. He is actually free to vote his conscience. He is a doctor. And to me, there is an outside chance. I don't think it's a great chance. There's an outside chance that he could run for governor in three years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
And get into a top two situation where it's like a MAGA person in him, where he gets a coalition of Democrats and normal Republicans. I want to say that's a very outside chance, but I don't think he's less likely to win going that route than by trying to MAGA himself after he voted to convict Donald Trump. So anyway, Bill Cassidy will be watching you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
No rank choice. It's like California. Everybody runs, all parties run in the first vote. And then the top two, you have a runoff with the top two. So in a place like California, you could have two Democrats. In a place like Louisiana, you could have two Republicans in the top two. Gotcha.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. You mentioned we're chatting on Slack. Anything on the Trump pivot with regards to Russia and Putin and sort of thoughts on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Yeah. The statements coming out of Russia are basically... I think they think they have his number. There was a conventional wisdom that they thought they had a deal. That Putin was like, all right, I got this guy and we got a deal. I think they think, no, we can push forward because Trump's not going to find the political will to push back on us. So...
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
All right, everybody. Thanks to Mona Charon. I already mentioned we got time meet up tomorrow. And we've got a full slate over on YouTube of live streaming these hearings. Mona will be on for a little while tomorrow. I'll be on for a little while tomorrow. So come hang out with us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
One more thing, just as since we've been on coming across here, my colleague Adrian Carastillo has the story about Trump turning schools into an immigration battleground. It's heart wrenching. So you can go check that out at the bulwark.com. Thank you, Mona. Everybody else.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Tonight at 8 p.m., The Next Level is live for Bulwark Plus members, so keep an eye out for that link. It will be in the podcast feed for everybody on Thursday morning. And then Thursday, we're live on YouTube basically all day. Will and Sam in the morning, little Mona,
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
I had David French on, I guess, on Friday. I don't know how long Beg to Differ went. I don't know who I talked to when, but he pointed out that this court, at least the first time through, the court's been remade a little bit since Trump's first term with the Coney Barrett seat, but rejected the administration more times than any president had been rejected since, I think, FDR.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
And so he was maybe a little bit more bullish than sometimes you hear from some of our friends on the left, about the fact that that might be the case again.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
I was kind of wondering what you think, what Steve thought, because all of these challenges are going to come down the pike, whether it's when we're going to get into the offering of severance and the mass firings of people in the administration and the grant freezing. All that stuff is going to end up, the immigration stuff, all that stuff is going to come across their robed desks here eventually.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
cameo jvl and i in the afternoon at the end of all the hearings we'll have a wrap-up with the whole gang for bulwark plus members only you can join at the bulwark.com subscribe if you join you also get this pod ad free and you get a special secret podcast called just between us hosted by our next guest policy editor at the bulwark my friend mona charon hey mona welcome back to the pod great times isn't it yeah
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
I'm trying to just think one day at a time. I'm trying to think about RFK today. I hear that. It's hard to just have lived the last 10 days and think that there is a groundswell of people prepared to stand up and oppose Donald Trump if he disobeys an order that's kind of procedural and arcane that doesn't affect their lives. Right. You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Like maybe there's a certain type of thing, you know, sending the troops in places. You know, I think that there's there's certain types of things that I think would awaken the American people from their slumber. But on some of this stuff, you know, if he says, sorry, I disagree. I can't fire people. I can't fire bureaucrats at will.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
And the Supreme Court says no, and he's like, I'm going to do it anyway. I'm taking away their, whatever, past key codes to get inside the EOB or whatever office building they work in. It's hard to see mass protests over that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
The border, making sure our prisons had boys in one prison and girls in the other prison. That was pretty cute. Well, actually, I'm for that. I'm totally for that. Same, same. Yeah, that's fine. Well, I'm for it in most cases. I don't know. I think that we could probably make some case-by-case exceptions. But anywho, that was the third prong of his mandate.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Yeah. I want to talk about this. So let me just take through for the people who've decided that they don't want to follow the minute by minute of this and are getting their just afternoon updates here on their constitutional with the, at the board podcast, like among the things that you mentioned that have been in these executive orders that have led to this chaos and a lot of uncertainty.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
As you mentioned, this freeze on grants that was the first day read to be like a total freeze on all spending to all grants, with the exception of, as you mentioned, Social Security, Medicare, military. They updated that 24 hours later to...
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
you know, only include, there was like this weird line about like, we're freezing grants to non-government organizations that are not advancing the interests of America. It was like a very urbanist sort of sentence. Like, okay, what's that? Who covers, who counts in that? You know, so again, so it's still very vague.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
As part of that, the Medicaid system, I guess payment system was down for a while. I guess that's now back up. We also discussed there was a firing of, I think, over a dozen of the inspectors general. There was a firing of over a dozen people that were a part of the investigations against Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
That's true. I'm happy to have you. I guess this is an announcement for a couple of listeners who noticed the meowing on yesterday's podcast. I have a cat, too. So we have each other a cat. Many listeners have been upbraiding me for listening to the cat food advertisement where I say we have a neighborhood cat where we feed. And they're like, that's your cat now. You have to take it in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
There have been some pretty ham-fisted ICE raids, including detention of Puerto Ricans who are American citizens that Adrian has been covering for us. Then there was yesterday this... It seems to be written by Elon Musk because it's read exactly the same as what he sent to Twitter employees. It was the same subject line. There's a fork in the road.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Hello and welcome to the Bored Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We have an insane week ahead of us. The confirmation hearing of RFK Jr. is happening as I speak. Kash Patel and Tulsi Gabbard's hearings are set for tomorrow. This pod will be on the normal schedule, but we're doing some special programming to accommodate all the madness. So mark this stuff down.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
There's a message to people like, you can quit by February 6th if you want. If you just say resign and we'll pay you a severance. So all this has happened. And so there's the question of like, okay, well, what of this will actually end up happening?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
yeah affecting people you know in a month who's to say right because most of it is unconstitutional or illegal and the stuff that is legal is written in such a way that it's like we don't actually know how to interpret it because they don't they don't really know how to interpret it so to circle back to your question I think the more that they actually do, the worse it is for him, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Honestly, right? Because his best position in all of this is to put up a lot of smoke and have a lot of people like us clutch our pearls about it and talk about how fascism is coming. And then have not that much change in people's day-to-day lives. And then he's like, see these, whatever, these crazy alarmists and whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
The only people for whom lives are really changing are asylees and trans people. People that are vulnerable. But the vast majority of Americans don't experience it. That is his best position. If they actually do the Russ votes stuff, right, and like Meals on Wheels is shut down, I do think the more of that they do, the worse it is. And the more then maybe a backlash starts to emerge.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
That's kind of my view. I don't know what you think about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
And while I was snowed out in New York, my family took it in without me. So, you know, we have each other and a stray cat. So that's what we got.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
Yeah, they're betting... Sonny Bunch and I were talking about this on Slack. The bet here, and this is from the Elon and Roosevelt perspective, is that they can do what Elon did at Twitter and say, I'm going to cut a huge part of the staff and most people won't notice any difference. There'll be some things that are annoying. There'll be more Nazis on the platforms. I don't want to minimize it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mona Charen: A Moment of Truth
The search function won't work quite as well as it used to. But like... All things considered, like most people's lives weren't disrupted by the fact that some Twitter engineers were cut. The government isn't quite the same as that, right? There are certainly some parts of the government can be cut where people's lives wouldn't be disruptive. But you're talking about payments to Medicaid, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
takes us a little bit to the domestic side of this, because there is an underlying argument beneath the appointment of Pete Exeth, for example, Secretary of Defense, which you see in memes from Republicans like Ted Cruz and others, which is that the Russians and the Chinese and militaries abroad, they are tough. They care about being real men, and that's men's values there. And here...
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
We have weakened our military. We care too much about DEI or whatever, our struggle sessions. You hear this a lot. And that truism is what underlines the rationale for making these appointments. And so I'm just curious what you think about that and what you think the incoming administration, how their changes might affect our readiness and our military.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I'm excited to have you back. Hopefully you can illuminate some things for me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Obviously, most of this stuff is coming from, you know, keyboard tough guys like Ted Cruz. But there is some demand for this inside the military from some quarters. So I want to read you something that happened on, I guess, Tuesday morning. The Trump transition put out a press release saying that 120 retired generals and admirals signed a letter supporting Pete Hegseth.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
In the press release, it has a couple sentences here. He has studied and experienced the disastrous effects of diversity, equity, and inclusion on our military, and he's committed to expunging it from our armed forces. Prominent in Trump's mandate was making our military strong and lethal to include removing what is called wokeness from our armed forces.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Much to discuss. And you've written, I want to get at the end, you've written for us as well, which I always really appreciate. You wrote something beautifully about American values, what you've learned in the Army, and what maybe the citizenry needs to learn. You wrote that for us after the election. So I want to get to that at the end. But there's so much happening around the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
So, you know, it's over 120 guys who look at a weekend talk show host and say he's the right man for the job because he has expertise on DEI. What do you think about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Whether, I don't know, the credibility question. I mean, how do you assess somebody like an appointment like Hegseth when there are just so many qualified people out there?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And usually I have a little outline of things I want to talk about. But given your breadth of experience, I actually thought the more interesting way to start would be, I want a threat assessment from you. You're looking at the domestic challenges we face with the incoming Trump administration. So I have his appointees looking at what's happening with Syria and Iran and the Koreas and Ukraine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Yeah. I just listened to that. And you said something that is just something that I've been wondering about. Somebody just doesn't, doesn't have any experience in this world. It's like, if you're a brigadier general, you know, like you said, said you are, and you're going in next February and you've got to do a briefing on war planning to the secretary of defense and,
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
It's a guy that's been sitting on the couch for eight years on a weekend talk show. I mean, that has, I don't know what that does to morale, but I just, I'm just painting that picture in my head. It feels ridiculous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I mean, even putting the politics of it aside, just as a question of seriousness and the type of person you would want in a job like this, it seems pretty preposterous when you think about the quality of people that are going to be reporting up to this person.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
If you're getting a phone call, it's like, General, what do you think the biggest threat is that we face? And what are you most concerned about? What's at the top of your list right now?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I was talking to Michael Weiss about this the other week, and he's talking about the intelligence side of this. And on the list of those five cabinets, you mentioned DNI. You know, again, say what you want about Tulsi. She also served like Hegseth, but repeatedly she has demonstrated either sympathies or... willingness to advance pro-Russian messaging.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And I do wonder how you think about that as far as the threats that are facing us domestically and kind of the questions about whether how our allies are going to look at that as far as intelligence sharing and, you know, whether it might raise any questions about the strength of the alliance, etc. ?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Yeah, I think of the times in the past, I guess, referencing like the Lavrov, the example with Trump's sharing information that was with the Russians. Oh, was it about Israel? Gosh, I can't remember. It's been a while.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
You're not exactly bringing up an uplifting analysis of what's happening here, General Hartling.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Okay. Give me something. What do you got? What's something good? What's something good that's happening out there?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
How about this for something positive? You started by talking about kind of these conversations you were having with, was it folks at West Point, did you say? Young people coming into the military now. What did you see from them? I mean, like, are they as wrapped up in all this culture war nonsense and political nonsense as the people at the top are? And what was their kind of mindset?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
You can go for a jog, watch your favorite TV show, or head out to a party, whatever floats your boat. I've mentioned this before about the gummies, all right? You know, these days, especially those of us who get into middle age, that like three glasses of wine or two glasses of wine with dinner sometimes leads me to a little bit of a lag the next day.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I'm not exactly as sharp as I need to be with my quips and bon mots. And so the gummies, you don't have that. You don't get to deal with that. You can de-stress. You know, I can turn on Silo. I've been watching Silo on Apple TV Plus lately and have a little gummy, chill out. No repercussions, no ramifications, right? Nothing. It's all good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
It was titled, I Helped the Army Remember Its Values. I Wish I Could Do the Same for the Country. There was a mnemonic device, leadership, without the E and the A in there. So it was loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage. Just talk about kind of what underlined that and what lessons we might want to take from it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Do you worry that... I don't know. There's an increased sense in the country that that stuff was all BS and that that is what kind of underlined the Trump rise. I mean, you know, just the fact that America really should act like we're just any other country. We should go out and get ours.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Isn't that kind of what underlines the nationalist impulse that over the National Review, Rich Lowry is obsessed with this, like America isn't an idea, actually. And we have interests like any other country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Do you worry that Trump's second victory is kind of a victory for that worldview and that maybe this kind of sense that there's something deeper about service to America is starting to disappear?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I hope you're right. I just, I look at that list and it's like loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, personal courage. It's tough to see our president-elect on that list anywhere. You know, it was reminiscent to me of during the McCain funeral. A lot of people were giving odes to him, talking about any of these traits that he had.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And a lot of Trump's defenders at the time were like, oh, they're insulting him. They're attacking the president. It's like, well, no, odes to these values that he doesn't have are not necessarily negative attacks on him. They're just odes to what we actually value here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I think we're going to go through a period now over the next four years where it's going to be tough to navigate that a little bit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
It's a great piece. I hope people go and read it. I've got one more thing for you and then I want to do a little St. Louis talk. I meant to ask you at the top, given your expertise, your amount of time in Europe, dealing with our counterparties and our allies in Europe,
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
If what you're saying is correct about the weakness of Russia right now and about the need to make sure we're backing our Ukrainian partners, we've seen the NATO Secretary General calling for more assistance and for European partners to step up more and recognize the threat that they face. Is there anything to that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Could the Western alliance survive with a diminished role of the United States, you think, or... Does the United States diminishing necessarily mean a weakening of the entire alliance and Putin continuing to kind of regather his strength?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Since your assessment of just the way that Russia has been degraded, I think is maybe greater than some of the conventional wisdom is out there. Do you concur with what Ruta said recently about how Europe doesn't know what they're in for? And, you know, over a three, four, five year window, Russia has ambitions potentially beyond Ukraine. Do you share that concern?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Or do you think that they are too degraded to be able to execute on even if they had greater ambitions that couldn't actually follow through on them? What's your assessment?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Louis man. You went to Chaminade, which is a Catholic school. No, I went to CBC. You went to CBC, Christian Brothers. Okay. So of my, so I've got, so my father and let's see, one, two, I'm doing a quick math in my head. One, two, three, four, five of my, four of my uncles went to SLU. I had one fellow CBC. My mother's youngest brother was CBC. Everybody else was SLU.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Yeah. Absolutely. I know that the youngest brother that my, when my mother went and her brother went to CBC, it was a little bit of a touchy subject actually around, around the house since everybody else had gone to SLU. I, we moved, my parents moved me or moved us. I'm actually Denver. I rep Denver, but I have two huge Catholic families.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And so I have a hundred cousins who go to every, who went everywhere. Though I don't think we had any CBCs. That's why I had Chaminade mixed up in my head. I did have a cousin went to Chaminade, an uncle went to CBC, but a lot mostly slew across the board. Though a friend of mine is now the president of DeSmet, Ronnie O'Dwyer. So we have a little St. Louis Catholic school rivalry happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
But you've also, like me, we've migrated out of St. Louis. You're a Florida man now? A Florida man now, yeah. Are you at all concerned about the regime targeting you? There is a little bit of anxiety, but not much. I can handle it. All right. I have no doubt you can handle it. Thank you, General Mark Hertling. I really appreciate it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
We are richer for your analysis here, and you've been a frequent visitor of the podcast and the site. We're really grateful to you, and I hope we can stay in touch.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
All right. Everybody else, we'll be back tomorrow. We've got a first-time guest on the podcast. Super pumped for it. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
All right. So a lot there. There's some obvious threats I think we're going to get to, particularly Russia and Russia and North Korea, which you also wrote about for us recently, if you want to dig deeper on that. The most interesting thing you said there is you began with concerns about the Middle East.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
And there's one way to look at this, which is what's happened over the last half year or year, really, in the Middle East and say, well, Iran's influence is weakened. Hezbollah and Hamas are weakened, nearly eliminated, and Assad's been overthrown. Is it not possibly the case that the threats there are diminishing rather than increasing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Can I ask you, And I asked Ian Applebaum about this on Friday, and I've really been pondering. the Bibi question and the Israel question because I'm a softy. And so, some of the Bibi stuff, you know, said the Israel's prosecution of the war has at times made me very uncomfortable ranging towards upset.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
On the other hand, though, you know, they were responding to this just heinous, horrific attack. And what we have seen from the fact that Israel's military and Bibi have been unwilling to kind of respond to pressure from the globe because they've resisted that pressure just objectively, like they've successfully weakened these very serious threats around the, around the region.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
So I wonder, you know, just from a military perspective, kind of how you assess the way that Israel has prosecuted the war over the last year.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I want to go back up to Ukraine. You know, when you were on with Charlie, gosh, a couple of years ago now, time is a flat circle. And I think we're pretty prescient in speaking about the weaknesses of the Russian military. I think you were more, because of your firsthand experience, I think more aware of the limitations, to say the least, that their military operation would have.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
You said the same thing about this. You wrote the same thing for us about this partnership with North Korea that has, you You know, allowed them to have kind of additional men coming in to the battlefield.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I'm wondering how you assess the state of play now with the specter of Donald Trump coming in and whether you feel like that's changed at all, whether you think that Russia is maybe on a stronger footing or I guess just broadly what you think the state of play is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Wednesday. I'm actually taping this Tuesday afternoon because Wednesday morning I'm flying to D.C. Me and Sarah Longwell are doing a debate against the Libertarian Reason Bros over at the Howard Theater. So if you're in D.C. and want to come hang out. and are listening to this on Wednesday afternoon.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
It does seem insane that we would take, we being the West, would take our foot off the gas here at this moment if what you're saying is right. If they're in such a weak position for this to be the moment to say, let's negotiate, it's just a gift to Putin. It's like it would be to bail him out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
Yeah. Why do you say that the first is he always wins just because he's not negotiate? He doesn't negotiate in good faith and the other side does.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
For people that are maybe new to us or just refresh memories for those from the last time you were around, and part of the reason why you were able to assess their weakness was seeing firsthand the type of military operation they were running. Why don't you just refresh folks' memory about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
We're doing that tonight around 7 p.m. So in the meantime, I have a wonderful guest. I'm excited to welcome back to The Bulwark to talk big picture view of what's happening here and around the world. He is a retired lieutenant general and a CNN military analyst. He's a former commanding general of the U.S. Army in Europe in the Seventh Army. He's a veteran of both Iraq wars. It's Mark Hartling.
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
I'm sorry, General, I got to interrupt you there because I've been told on Fox News and such that that's like how you do military right. That's the manly military, you know, beating up soldiers. It's just our woke pansy military that doesn't do stuff like that. Is that not incorrect?
The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Mark Hertling: Putin's Weakness
that preloading i've been talking about that that's key all right what you don't want is a photo frame you send somebody a box it's a box all right it's got a beautiful mat it looks good it's cool they put it up on their mantle they put it on their bedside table but it's it's nothing you know it's a it's a photo of some people they don't know or it's a single photo of you you know and uh and your family and then it's boring and then they move on to the next present
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. And in some ways he is predictable. Like if you just suck up to him, then he'll do what you want. So in some ways he's unpredictable in certain ways and otherwise the most predictable person possible in a foreign exchange. Planning any exciting foreign trips this year? I know I'm going to try to take a little vacation this summer if you guys are going to let me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
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The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Something else missing. Okay. My husband usually looks at those kind of guys. I'm not into the muscle men, but I do know who you're talking about. All right. We're going to do a lot of Hegseth. We're going to go deep on Hegseth. We kind of already did a palate cleanser with the amino acids, but I just think given how horrific the world is right now, we need two palate cleansers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
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The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I think I've got to get out of here, though. I got to get out of here. And I think I could go someplace where people aren't speaking English. There's just something a little bit more freeing when they're not speaking English around you. You know, it feels a little bit more like a vacation. Looking at Babbel, trying to figure out a way to be able to order at the restaurants at minimum.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
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The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
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The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I want to just get in on that Slotkin question that you mentioned, which was an example of the Democrats trying to pin him down in a way that was effective. Unfortunately, it was the last round of questioning of the hearing. But there was an important issue that was undergirding this Q&A. So I want to listen to all of it. It's a little bit longer clip than we usually play.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
But let's listen to Alyssa Slotkin, new senator from Michigan, challenging Pete Hexeth yesterday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
So let's take a listen to a little exchange on the house floor that I don't know if you caught yesterday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I'm going to take that as a yes. That was brilliant. That was the most alarming part.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. I just think the risk of this, like, I don't know about him getting fired just because he's not going to go against Trump. Trump doesn't actually care about incompetence, right? Like, he cares about disloyalty. And so... I think that he might be around. And that worries me, man.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
The thing that worries me the most is him getting fired would probably be good because 82-year-old Donald Trump in 2028 trying to get into some shit. I would much rather have Mark Esper in there at that point than Pete Hegseth. But here we are. Anything on the substance of Ukraine's state of play?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Well, who knows how good the deal is. Sure. There's a little nomination news yesterday. I want to ask you about Joe Kent is the leading contender to be the next head of the National Counterterrorism Center. People don't know Joe Kent. I'll put this article in the show notes. I wrote an article about him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
God, about three years ago now, he's run for Congress a couple of times and lost to a friend of the pod, Marie Glusenkamp Perez, one of our favorite Democrats. And I watched this video of him. The shortest way to describe it is there's a group of kind of Hitler youth, like white nationalist young people, Groypers in Germany. Kent wanted to win and get into their good graces.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Cash is outside, says Nancy Mace. She is not a child. She's breaking glass ceilings everywhere she goes. What do you think? That was Jasmine Crockett and Nancy Mace, if you missed that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
So he goes and submits to an interview from like a child in his bedroom asking him about protecting white people. And Kent is like sucking up to him and being like, yeah, I care about white people. He is a very far right MAGA person who is off the deep end on conspiracy stuff. Thoughts about having Joe Kent as the head of the National Counterterrorism Center?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Every conspiracy theory – He's curious about it at least. He might be curious.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Let's talk about that. And the counterterrorism center, and this is like going to be part of under Tulsi's remit, I guess. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Yeah, it is. That's the crowd you have there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I guess, but I get into this a little bit with Kelly in the next segment, so just very briefly. But just for people to understand what this job is, the National Counterterrorism Center was created after 9-11. And that was in the 9-11 Commission. One of the takeaways was that there wasn't communication between FBI and CIA. And so this is a coordinating type role, right? And so...
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
In order to be in a coordination type role, you've got to be able to take in info from these different agencies and then process them and help prioritize and share. Well, if you're a conspiracy theorist and you can't tell the difference between truth and something that was posted on, you know, in the comment section of Breitbart, that's not a great skill set for that role, to say the least.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I just think that's kind of like a manner. So it's kind of like how I say man, you know, kind of like, I was like, Hey man, what's up? And then some people, some people are like, I'm not a man. Don't call me man. You know, I think, I think it was just cultural, but okay, go ahead.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. So I need to update my references. You're right. Like they're getting conspiracies from like app and wokeness on X and not, not from comments on Breitbart anymore. Yeah, that's right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
It wasn't on my list, but you just you piqued my interest with your Elon aside. So I just want to hear you kind of rant rant about it for a minute.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, there was a report yesterday he's going to have an office, I guess, maybe, in the White House. We'll see. Oh, good. Good. But yeah, I mean, look, having free reign to target people inside the government to go after him, he's obviously a very sensitive person, a huge government contractor. All of it is alarming. The Jack Smith report came out. Liz Cheney wrote this about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
The special counsel's one-sex report confirms the unavoidable facts of January 6th. Once again, DOJ's exhaustive investigation reached the same conclusions as the select committee, which you were on. All this DOJ evidence must be preserved.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
But more important now, as the Senate considers confirming Trump's Justice Department nominees, if those nominees cooperated with his attempt to overturn the 2020 election, they cannot now be entrusted with responsibility to preserve the rule of law and protect our republic. As our framers knew, our institutions only holding those in office are not compromised by personal loyalty to a tyrant.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
So the question is now paramount for Republicans. Will you faithfully perform the duties the framers assigned to you? I think we know the answer to that rhetorical question, but you can take it if you want.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Do you have any other thoughts for the Jack Smith report? I mean, it was just kind of confirmed what you guys all covered already.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
in earth like everything goes his way like if karma is real it's going to get bad at some point for him but like i don't think karma is real i've got bad news yeah i know i think we can close the book on that one karma not real you've got to do the right thing for your own purposes internally and to feel good about yourself uh because you're not getting rewarded unless maybe an afterlife i guess we can't close the book on that i don't who knows yeah true true maybe maybe heaven maybe heaven
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I'm not counting my chickens on that, but we'll see. All right. You mentioned the vestiges of the Republican Party and how those embers have died. I'm wondering if any of the vestiges still exist within you when it comes to the conversation of Greenland. I asked Bill Kristol about this. I was like – Does national greatness conservatism still live inside of you?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
And are you at least a little tempted by these conversations about the U.S. acquiring Greenland? And I ask you this question, and there's a fact this morning, because I knew this at one point, but I'd forgotten, so I Googled it. The president that acquired Alaska... Andrew Johnson, America's worst president before Donald Trump. So you can be the worst president and also expand our territory.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Are you intrigued by the new worst president also looking to expand to the great white north at all?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Sensible. Yeah. Adam Kinzinger, realist. I want to do the last thing. There was a Daily Mail story about you on Sunday, and it was a nice Daily Mail story, which is a big change of pace for you for the last couple of years. A mom of four, Amina Hamden, has thanked Adam Kinzinger for rescuing her from a deadly knife attack in the street in Milwaukee in 2006.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I saw you shared this that there are things you didn't know that you learned about this instance. Talk about that a little bit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
So anyway, it's a interesting story. I look forward to hearing about that, man. No, that's cool, man. I appreciate you. You're a great American. You're a good pal. And, uh, It's tough out there, so we've got to take the good stories where we can get them. We'll be talking. Maybe, you know, keep updated on this story and all the other bullshit that's happening in Washington. Sounds good, man.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I'm very much looking forward to it. All right, man? Absolutely. Take care, brother. All right, sounds good. Up next, Senator Mark Kelly. All right, we are back with Mark Kelly, Democratic Senator from Arizona. He was a Navy combat pilot, flew 39 missions in Operation Desert Storm. He was also a NASA astronaut and flew into orbit on four space shuttle missions.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
He's a senior political commentator for CNN, founder of Country First, and he's got a Substack newsletter like everybody else. He's Adam Kinzinger. What's going on, bro?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
He's a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee and had some questions for Pete Hegseth on Tuesday. How are you doing, Senator? I'm good. How are you this morning? I'm doing good, all things considered. Setting aside maybe the future of the Pentagon, I'm doing pretty good. All right, I wanted to start with your exchange with Pete Hegseth from the hearing yesterday. Let's take a listen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
In that back and forth there, I thought it was interesting that for some of the stories that you laid out, his answer was just anonymous smears. But then when we got to young ladies at the strip club, it was that's not true and also anonymous smears. So that was maybe a little bit of a reveal to me about whether the first stories were true or not. What did you think about your exchange?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
He did say that in one case, which makes you think that maybe the other cases, they weren't false.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, possibly a mental break.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, the enormity of the job question, this is what hangs over everything to me, is that the lack of seriousness with which the Republicans took their job to advise and consent on him yesterday was pretty astonishing to me. There's a million examples of this, but there's just one clip I wanted to play for you, if you don't mind.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
That was Republican Senator Mark Wayne Mullen of Oklahoma. I was watching that. I'm thinking, you're pointing at a damn astronaut. You know, Pete is a weekend TV co-host who can allegedly do his job while half in the bag.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Just the lack of caring about the fact that they're pulling this guy off the Fox & Friends couch and putting him in the most important job in the world was pretty astonishing to me. I don't know. What did you think about the defense of his resume from the Republicans?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
You haven't seen any hammered senators being pulled off the floor by their staff?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Matt Gaetz was his colleague in the House. People like to party in the House.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, and again, there are other jobs out there. Doug Burgum, if you kind of want to go around and do a quick one round of questions, seven minutes, half day, move on, that's fine. I don't have any objection to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
But given what you just laid out about all of the different contingencies that you have, if you are running the Pentagon, I interviewed Mark Hertling about this last week, and he laid all this out so clearly. You have to just be pretty flabbergasted. Have you had any conversations with your fellow Republicans? They're just going to do three hours of questions to Pete Hegseth and rubber stamp him?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, therapy. Nothing wrong with therapy. I had to do a little therapy. I'm going to have Jason put... I drive a Dodge Stratus in in post, just so people can... People need that these days. I wish you weren't a liar.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I guess there's going to be some private meetings now, but do you have any sense whether there's any more vetting happening here, given the seriousness?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. It's hard to think about any, you know, do one that if he had the experience, but his personal life was a mess, that'd be one thing. Or if he was a great leader in his community, but didn't quite have the experience, maybe it's another thing, but no, he's not checking anything. You mentioned that you hadn't planned to kind of ask the questions that you did.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Are you coordinating with the other senators about this? I mean, there was some talk that maybe given the fact that, look, Roger Wicker had a Ukraine pin on, maybe it would have been better to try to win Republicans over to try to pin him down on policies where he is separate from the senators. You know, I can't imagine Roger Wicker and Pete Hegseth have the same policy on Ukraine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
How do you guys decide what the strategic approach is in these sorts of hearings?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I just wish you weren't a liar.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Her material is great. I just talked to former Congressman Kinzinger about that exact exchange. Was that the most alarming thing? Obviously, just his background and his existence as the Secretary of Defense is the most alarming thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
But of the actual substantive things you got into, his unwillingness to say that he wouldn't oppose unlawful orders or that he wouldn't use the military to target citizens. Was that the most alarming part to you or was there something else that jumped out?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
You've got another hearing here on the committee for Chelsea Gabbard. His hard confirmation is coming up soon. In a way, that's a little bit of a different challenge than Hegseth, because I think it's possible, we'll see, that some of your Republican colleagues might be against her on policy grounds.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
So have you thought about that confirmation hearing and what you want to challenge her on and whether any of the Republicans you think might share the concerns of the folks on the Democratic side when it comes to Gabbard?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Whether she knows who our ally is in the Russia-Ukraine war might be something interesting to explore. I'm not sure she knows which side she's supposed to be on in that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Okay. Thanks, Seth. We could go a million ways with this. So I guess I just – let me put a quarter in and what's your biggest picture thought on the hearing yesterday?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah, if you can't tell the difference between Gateway Pundit and the Wall Street Journal, that's not, when it comes to reporting, that's not a great sign. Okay, I got to let you go. I have one last thing, though. I have one last thing I have to ask you. Just, you know, we just have to get on the record on this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
There's a lot of concerns Democrats are struggling with young men, you know, and so I was watching it. I thought you gave Pete Higgs some really good, tough questions, but I just, I want to be clear. You know, you don't have any issues with, you know, pounding some beers on a party bus. OK, if some bros want to pound some beers on a party bus on the way to the football game, that's OK with you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
That wasn't that's not your issue.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Have you ever passed out on a party bus?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
What about a keg stand, though?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
What is your favorite beer? What are you drinking right now?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I love Tucson. It's sneaky cool. So I'll have to go check it out the next time through. Tucson's a cool place. All right. Thank you so much, Senator Kelly. Come on back. We're going to have to talk about a little politics next time in Arizona. So we'll see you soon. All right. Let's do that. All right. I appreciate it. All right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Thank you to favorite of the pod, Adam Kinzinger and to Senator Mark Kelly. We'll have much more tomorrow on the Pam Bondi hearing and the rest of the parade of horribles. Look forward to see all that. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Even on the women in the military thing. Yeah. Like as an example, and I know we got Democratic staffers that are the tune in sometimes. So just like friendly tip, like he said he was against women in the military in November of 24, two months ago. Right. And so I just despite the fact that five of them asked about this, there was never a so what changed since November?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Like what changed since November? And just a very direct, specific question. Here was the quote in November. What changed? And then he's like, blah, blah, blah. I was like, so you just changed your mind? Did somebody tell you a new thing? Might you change your mind back in two more months? You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Like there just was no, a lot of times it was a rant, you know, and this is why we have Mark Kelly on in segment two. I thought he did a nice job and a couple others did a nice job. So it wasn't everybody. So I just think that was to me like the biggest, like just process failing of just being able to go at people directly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Do you think Tim Sheehy will ask her how many push-ups she can do? Or is that just, is that only a question for dudes? I think it's just for dudes, but they'll ask her. How many push-ups can you do actually? Now we're right here. How many push-ups can you do these days? I don't know, man.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Yeah. What'd you do that you asked forgiveness for? Right. You never told us. You said you got, you were saved by Jesus. What did he save you from? What did you do? You never told us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Does it have to be? I mean, it only takes three of them. I know. Are they sure?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Adam, that's like Russia shit. That's China shit. We're sucking up to this guy. It's crazy. We kind of immediately got into the process. The biggest possible picture, somebody that served and was in Congress, was on these committees. This is an insane person to make the Secretary of Defense. It is total madness. Goodness, like there's not one person. It's like, guys, this is a little crazy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
I mean, we should at least we should at least pressure test this guy. He's been half drunk, allegedly on a weekend is a weekend talk show co-host for the last decade.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Does she want to do a YouTube segment with me anytime? We're welcome. She'd be good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
In a way, it's worse than that. I'm glad you brought this up, but I hate to obsess on the process, the kinds of questioning, the kinds of meetings. It feels like this is a Punchbowl DC podcast or something, but the process stuff matters on things like this. This man has been nominated to run... The largest bureaucracy in the world, in addition to it being the military.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
So there's life or death decisions on the line. Like the idea that he couldn't even meet in private with Democrats before this hearing. I guess he's going to do some meetings after the idea that they that they truncated the hearing so that it was like only a couple hours and they didn't get to ask him follow up questions.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. As we're recording right now, the Pam Bondi confirmation hearings are happening. There'll be much more on that tomorrow. Today we got a Hegseth doubleheader. In segment two is Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona. But first, he was a Republican congressman from Illinois. He served in the Air Force during Iraq and Afghanistan.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
It just shows a total lack of seriousness from the people on the Republican side that they've decided that they are just completely going to throw away any ability to vet this person, any even pretense that this job is serious and that the vetting should be taken seriously.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
And that is why it's fucking laughable to hear that they are going to do oversight if this is the way they behave during the advice and consent process.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
No, let's actually stick on that for a second. Don't say, okay, fine. This is a good point. Because this is a hit on the Democrats and on the Republicans. Because for the Democrats, it's a strategic thing, right? You know that these Republicans don't give a fuck about somebody cheating on their wife. All right? They're in a Donald Trump cult. Okay?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
So doing that, talking about that to embarrass them or whatever, it's fine if somebody wants to spend seven minutes on that. But conceivably, you could maybe peel off a Republican on policy issues. Maybe not. Maybe not. Okay, maybe not. But you have Roger fucking Wicker, who is the chairman of the committee, who's the senator from Mississippi, wearing a Ukraine pin. Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
And Hank Seth is testifying, who's clearly just going to do whatever Donald Trump and ultimately Vladimir Putin wants, you know, in order to totally sell out our friends in Ukraine. How can you in good conscience, like, wear a Ukraine pin and say you care about Ukraine and then not even pressure test this guy on whether he intends to do what he can to help our allies in Ukraine? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
The Republican Center is a Ukraine thing. I mean – Do you think that Roger Wicker has convinced himself that Donald Trump is going to come around on this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Adam Kinzinger and Mark Kelly: Dirty Little Secret
What is he doing wearing a fucking Ukraine pin? It is just so shameful. Like the election of Donald Trump is essentially giving Ukraine away. And so then he wears a Ukraine pin on there and doesn't. even challenge Trump's nominees on this? Like, what do you do? He's stupid. He's just been fooled.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It does say something about our country, though. Right. Like, I mean, that is really like we were joking about being under the covers at the beginning. Like, to me, it's more about that. Right. Like the realization that, like, we chose this and that not all of us chose it, but that, like, broadly, the country chose it rather than like a particular like I'm scared that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I don't know, Eagle Ed Martin in the, you know, DC prosecutor's office is going to come for me. I don't know who the hell knows what will happen, but like, it's less about that. Like the deeper questions to mine kind of are about what it says about the country, I guess. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Maybe lost, including elected Dems and some Dem strategists that I've been talking to. Tom gives some real tangible things folks can do. And reading it, it buoyed me a little bit when I was like, yeah, that's a good idea. That's a good idea. Yeah, this is manageable. I mean, it's bad. All the things Anne was worried about are worth worrying about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
here's an element of it that's a little closer to your work though what what if it's less about wanting to put food on the table or whatever and i'm sure that's true for some people but for other people it was like more about feeling like that the culture was going away from them that like movies were you know all this like woke lash like everything there's we have a
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
you know, we have a black little mermaid now or whatever, or like the comedians can't do the jokes that they used to do anymore. And like, we need to, and that there's been overreach on that side on the left and that we need to, you know, there needs to be a boomerang back. some of those feelings are probably illegitimate and bigoted. Maybe there's some, some real legitimate feelings there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I don't know. What do you think about that kind of element of it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
In some ways, it's like a different side of the same thing. A lot of it is just lawyers and PR people being cautious. Honestly, I understand why some multinational corporation that has a bunch of interest before the government would want to be cautious right now. Because Trump is capricious and will target people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
And I also would understand why that corporation might like not want to publish some, a comedy that is a little bit too provocative or there might be a backlash or whatever, or that they would want to, you know, do something that I think would get them good PR, right? Like all of that is like related to caution. I mean, like some of it's more real than others, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
coming in and saying like oh you shouldn't have this in your shower that you know there's like not gonna get a phone call off to this pod though are you fucking serious like why would you do this okay i was listening to one of the other interviews you're doing you said you're working on a i was hoping to work on an adaptation of the bag man podcast that uh rachel and i did about spiro agnew i love this i keep bringing up the spiro agnew story recently because it was like
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
But there are some countervailing influences that the Dems can leverage, including the courts and the people that Biden put on the court recently, but also some strategies from Congress. So hopefully we can talk to Tom about that at greater length. But you should go read the article regardless. Two other just sort of news items I wanted to jump on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
He has to resign. The vice president has to resign. It's been a while since I looked at it. It was like $10,000 or something.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It is funny to tell that story now in the context of the incoming president has a cryptocurrency and the richest man in the world is taking over the Treasury Department. And it's like, man, that was a controversy in the early 70s when Spiro was taking 10 grand for some construction.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
The other Spiro thing that is actually interesting is he, uh, I mean, he was on the fake news stuff. He was really kind of the earliest person to weaponize that. And it goes back, I mean, I'm sure there was somebody that made, of course, people complained about the media always, but like to really weaponize it and like mass mobilize people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I hope that gets made because I think that'd be really good. The Spiro story is good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Y'all. pretty crazy out there. I was just talking to Ben Stiller about whether we're living in a simulation or whether this is real life. So that tells you a little bit something about my mental stability. I'm thinking about what's happening with life and what craziness could be around the corner.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
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The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
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The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
On Friday, I guess it was, I gave the plea to Bill Cassidy to do the right thing, my senator here from Louisiana, acknowledging during the plea that I wasn't exactly optimistic, but... I was thinking there was at least a chance, as they might say in Dumb and Dumber, a different aughts comedy from the ones we're going to be discussing on this podcast. I was thinking there was a chance.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
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Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
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The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Go to SelectQuote.com slash Bulwark today to get started. That's SelectQuote.com slash Bulwark. All right. Two more politics things for you, then we'll get to fun. I'm obligated to bring up the fact that the shadow president, Elon Musk, did tweet that you went full retard above a pick of you with your endorsement of Kamala Harris. I guess it was a quote of Tropic Thunder.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
That's got to be kind of surreal to be at the, like, this is where we're at, right? To see this guy, like, tweeting the Arsler at you and also, I guess, like, taking over offices in the West Wing and also... Well, that part of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Has he ever called you? Have you ever got a phone call?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I'm just spitballing on you right now. But if you offered him a spot in Tropic Thunder 2, we might be able to get out of some of this stuff. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
If he finances it, In exchange for that... I'm not going to say simple jack. Could we get USAID back? I don't know. I think that seems like as good an idea as any. These guys do like attention, it seems like.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
That's just one idea. Hopefully a germ of an idea could turn into something. Back when I was doing the anti-Trump super PAC way back... four-eyed wrinkles, like in 2016, people kept being like, all the money that these rich guys are putting into the anti-Trump ads, couldn't we just, I don't know, buy them off? Couldn't they have just given that money? Couldn't they have got Trump to the table?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I think in retrospect, that probably would have been more effective than some of the tactics we used.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
No, there's no revelation. But it is, I guess, just to expand on your point, it's just so stark. That they would all do it for him. This takes me back to the simulation thing. The four richest people in the world who have FU money are all prostrating themselves for access to the power wielded by this guy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
like it's like it almost is like a mood like you're trying to test the limits of greed like there's a movie script here about like how embarrassing can we make it to get these guys to debase themselves and the answer is like unlimited amount of embarrassment yeah or how obvious or just sort of like and he's just the guy's willing to do it as you has been well documented he's been willing to break the norms all right the other uh
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Well, there wasn't a chance. Bill Cassidy caved to Trump. Somebody that absolutely knows better, has demonstrated that he knows better when it comes to vaccines, when it comes to public health, agreed to put RFK Jr. a complete quack unqualified conspiracy theorist in charge of the Health and Human Services Department. He got through in committee on a party line vote.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
kind of Hollywood and politics thing. I wanted to spit ball by you besides my tropic thunder idea, which I just came up with on the fly. I'm feeling pretty good about, um, I was wondering if, you know, you, I guess had done them fundraisers. I haven't talked to Dems at some level.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I do wonder, like a lot of times they rely on Hollywood a little too much about for various things, but I do wonder if they might be able to learn some lessons from Hollywood on like mass marketing to people. Like I was watching the Tim, Timothee Chalamet, Bob Dylan, you know, media tour, um,
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
And, um, he's like this liberal noodle boy from New York that had mostly like girls and gay fans, like up until two minutes ago. And he goes out there and he's like, I'm going to go on Theo Vaughn. I'm going to go do, you know, the college game day and like, we're going to repackage me and put me out there in a way.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
that resonates with more like a guy's kind of audience type of people that would like a Bob Dylan movie. And that worked. And I do wonder if there's any lessons there for Democrats. I might push back and do that. I don't know Timothy that well.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
So we need a genuine sports fan to be the Dem standard bearers, what you're saying, or somebody that is genuinely more in touch with guy culture? I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
All right. I want to put this bug in your head because I feel like you've got to have some value here. Like, you know, Night at the Museum, you've like done mass market. There are Republicans buying these shoes. You figured that out. Like there are Republicans going to some of these movies. All right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It is not. I also think those people are lying, right? It's like, I dare you to go watch Happy Gilmore and come back and still be, and still, you know, you're really going to cut yourself off from that. You're going to, you're going to cut yourself off from this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
All right. One last political thing. I know you've been kind of an advocate and like traveled the world doing, um, Stop talking about displaced people. I had the list in front of me, but I lost it. Oh, here it is. You went to Germany, Jordan, Guatemala, Lebanon. I mean, this is the top of my worry list right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I mean, obviously, we have some acute concerns here at home, but I do think we're entering into a phase where there is just not going to be a lot of support anymore from the U.S. for people
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Cassidy was the one who could have stopped it. By the time this publishes, you know, we might have a schedule for when the actual floor vote will be. But at this point, it seems pretty clear that RFK is going to be Secretary of Health and Human Services. Similarly, Maybe not 100%, but probably 95% likelihood at this point that Tulsi Gabbard is going to be the Director of National Intelligence.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Me too. This was a big one for me. And it's tough. Yeah. You know, some of this can be filled in by NGOs and, you know, people like yourself, right? They're raising money for groups and big donors and foundations. But, like, fundamentally, part of this is nation states need to help, right? Like, there need to be safe harbor countries.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Like, there's a lot of regulatory stuff that goes into, you know, this as far as visas, right? Like, at some level, there's only so much people can do. You know, if you're making the camps nicer, that's one, you know, but, like, come on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Elevating your style used to mean breaking the bank, but with Quince, you can get high-end, versatile pieces at pricing that you can actually afford. Now you upgrade your style by snagging killer luxury essentials that sync with your vibe and your wallet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Quince has all the must-haves like Mongolian cashmere crewneck sweaters from 50 bucks, iconic 100% leather jackets, and versatile flow knit activewear. The best part, all Quince items are priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the cost of the middleman and passes the savings on to us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices along with premium fabrics and finishes. I love it. I just got a new sort of like an army green shacket from Quince that I could not be more excited to wear.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
very excited it was chilly the week that i got it and this week i'm off to palm springs i don't know if it's the right palm springs vibe but as soon as i get back in new orleans i'm going to be in that shacket it is looking good and um you know i've got a bunch of different quince items now that you'll be seeing me rotating through here on the youtube
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
A total fold on this one. We talked about this a little bit with Anne on the podcast yesterday. But across the board, not just Cassidy, Langford, Susan Collins in the case of Gabbard. Unbelievable. Well, believable, but... You know, unbelievable in the sense of un-fucking-believable Susan Collins. And who else? Todd Young. All are going to say that they're going to vote to confirm Gabbard.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
You know, I wouldn't steer you the wrong way on something like this. So indulge in affordable luxury. Go to quince.com slash the bulwark for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash the bulwark to get free shipping and 365 day returns. quince.com slash the bulwark. All right, let's do some severance. Okay. I'm up to speed. Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
On Thursday. So it'll be coming tomorrow. Episode four will be coming tomorrow. No spoilers for me until I get back home over the weekend because I'm going to be missing it. I'm on the road tomorrow. But I guess just at the beginning, what was it? I mean, obviously, it's like you have a production company. You have your pick of the litter, I assume.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
What was it that appealed to you about Severance?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yeah, he's so good. It's funny, all these things, whenever I listen to Hollywood podcasts, these background conversations, and you hear the alternate paths, the show would feel weird not on Apple Plus and not with Adam, right? It does feel very aligned with the whole vibe of what the other stuff is on that streamer. And then Adam is so great. I'm like, who else would have this? Exactly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
You also have Totoro in there. I guess he's not a podcast listener because he didn't recognize me, but we were shopping together in Brooklyn the other day. Oh, really? Yeah, it cracked me up because he was doing his own costuming.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
He was talking to the guy where I'm at some boutique store, and he's talking to the owner of the store, and he's like, yeah, they gave me something, but it's not right, and I want something else.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
it was like such a scene he's like he's super stylish too yeah he looked great and i was like i have to buy something from the store now so it worked out for the um did you see he walked the runway in in milan brazilia i did not a couple weeks ago yeah I gotta go. I gotta go pull that up when we're finished. But I, and he's like that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It's gotta just be a joy to be a giant tutorial every day or not every day, but for the time that you're on set.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
So there's that. One last topic. There's been a lot of discussion, and Anne and I made some jokes about it. And a bunch of... Everybody's making jokes about it, which are these little 22-year-old wizards that Elon has running around, running roughshod over our government, using AI to... figure out which government functions should be completely shut down.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Okay, quick spoiler, if you haven't watched the session, just fast forward 45 seconds. Who had the balls to make a Totoro walk-in love story pitch?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
And I guess it's not a spoiler because it was having a season one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yeah, I did. I looked at my husband and I was like, this is goals here. You know, can we be Totoro or Walken 15 years ahead? It's interesting because the show doesn't take place now, right? What time period are we actually in? Do they ever say? I can't.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
help you there Tim oh we don't know oh got it it could be yeah we don't ever specify it doesn't take I mean we don't have tick-tock I guess is what I'm telling like you can just there's certain ways that you can sense that it's not the year 2020 yeah it's weird there's there's certain technology that's in the show and then there's certain you know cars don't seem like they're from today but
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
As you said, it is a little bit of a corporate commentary, right? Like, obviously, this is kind of a secret corporation, and the characters are, you know, separating their, you know, outside their work life from inside the work life.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
To what extent, like, do you think that is, like, particularly pertaining to, you know, the technological questions we're dealing with today, or, you know, something like the big tech giants? Is there anything that is specifically on point towards that, or is it more of a
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
This takes us back to the metaphysical questions of are we in a reality right now? Yeah, I thought you were taking it to the metaphor of life like my life. Like, could I sever having to do this podcast off from the rest of my life? Would you want to? Yeah. Well, I don't know. You're asking me that right this second. I would say no. There would certainly be an appeal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I think I would enjoy myself at the MJ Lenderman show at Tibbettina's tonight more if I was able to sever off the rest of this, but maybe not.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
They've had some success, obviously, with USAID. There was news out here late Tuesday from CBS saying that USAID missions overseas have been told to shut down. All staff are being recalled to the U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
No, I do. I love it. I don't love that I have to do it. These are the things I have to talk about. I mean, this is fine right now. But, you know, the other things that I have to talk about. But, yeah, I guess that is right. The question is, like, what is it? It's sort of about what...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Oh, that's funny. They just have the door factory cameo in the second episode. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yeah, I guess that's true. And also the happiness element of it, right? Maybe that's not true. Maybe I'm happier at the MJ Lunderman show knowing I've earned it. you know? Yeah, sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It's kind of in conversation with that movie, Eternal Sunshine. Sunshine, yeah. I loved that movie.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yeah, there definitely are some parallels. I also want to ask about the four tempers. Why are we taming Frolic? The four tempers Keir is taming are woe, frolic, dread, and malice. Curious what those four mean to you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
This new USAID deputy who I've mentioned on the pod, Peter Marocco, who was an insurrectionist in the Capitol on January 6th, he told State Department leadership if they didn't come back to America, they'd be evacuated by the military. So that's pretty ominous. So we've got these little 20-somethings running around, shutting down USAID, getting into the treasury payment systems.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
What do you think about those four tempers?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I think there's something more there. I think there's something you're not telling me. Whoa, frolic, dread and malice. I'm just going to keep thinking about that. All right. My last, my husband's theory on this is that when the brain gets severed, it also affects their comprehension.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
So when, so when they're doing the computer games, if they could use their real brain, they could see what is on the computer and it would tell them what the company does. Interesting. What do you think about that? Yeah. It was interesting. All right. I want to close. I have a game I want to close with for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
But before we get to the game, I had one other topic I forgot, which is kind of related to the game because some of the characters in the game will be relevant in this question. Why can't we make good comedies anymore, like the 2000s? And not because of the stuff we were talking about earlier, just fundamentally, are people out of good ideas? I mean, you had a run...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
That was like Zoolander, Dodgeball, Fockers, Meet the Parents, Happy Gilmore. And I was like, what was the best comedy last year? I Googled it. I couldn't find one. I asked our culture editor. He goes, ooh, tough one. Comedy's in a dire spot. He's like, maybe The Fall Guy. And he goes, maybe Nutcrackers. Yeah. Which I haven't seen. I have to admit, I haven't seen. What's the deal?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Think about how easier it is now to have access to like weed vapes. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Hey, everybody. I know it was a little bleak yesterday, so I got a treat for you and for me. Ben Stiller wanted to come on the pod. We've been DMing. He does a lot of work with refugees and Everything that's in the news with USAID and everything. I was like, man, Joe, come on. We can talk about your work doing that. But then also take a little break, do some Hollywood chat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Oh, I thought you were going to say there's a much younger generation that's brains are broken and that we can't reach them because they have too much anxiety.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
And there's been a little bit of pushback about the snark targeting these young men. They are all men, I should mention. Among the pushback, there's this video. I'm going to put it here in the show notes about this guy, Luke, who is one of these young guys. And he seems brilliant. I mean, he was using AI to uncover...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
For a minute, I was like, am I just doing the old guy thing where it's like things were so much better when I was a teenager? And then I started doing some Googling, and I was like, no. In this instance, things were better when I was a teenager. But is there anything you just think back on that gives you a chuckle? Any little moments?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Everybody always asks you about, like, the famous ones. Like, do you have any deep cuts that you really like people should go watch? Any Ben Stiller movies? I mean, I guess Cable Guy is not really a deep cut, but a culture writer, Sonny, also said to me when I was brainstorming with him about this, he was like, prescient. Cable Guy was prescient.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It was kind of about people's obsession with true crime, you know, infotainment. And, like, so you nailed that. Is there anything else like that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yes, but it's the same. It's just like on here. It's like the same thing. It's like it could be the TikTok guy now and this point would be the same.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Real life's on my list. Okay, here's the game we're going to end with. You came on a political podcast, so you asked for this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yeah, it was cheerier than Ann Applebaum. Oh, really? Do you have any funny stories you want to end with? Yeah, funnier than Bill Kristol and Ann Applebaum.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
thank you it's kind of like a generational gag kind of humor thing um i mean if you if you feel like you failed us like do you have like a funny story do you have like a tight five or anything like what like if what if we were going on jimmy fallon don't you prep something that's funny for jimmy fallon do you prep anything yeah sometimes and it's always like a lot it's very stressful and it's i always feel like i'm not funny enough and like i'm just the least funny supposedly funny person i know
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Got it. So you do, but you do prep. You do prep. So when Jimmy's like, tell me about your teen son's crisis that he had last week.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Okay, that's why podcasts are doing well. I don't know about this one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It's great. I should have listened to your DAX for prep. Okay, we're back to the game. This is good. This is professional podcasting right now. Here it is. I don't have music to go along with it. Maybe we'll put it in a post.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Who did this character vote for in the 2024 election? The Alzheimer's nurse in Happy Gilmore. Trump. Trump. White Goodman. Trump. I had to say Trump. Trump, okay. Chaz Tenenbaum. Kamala. Kamala for Chaz Tenenbaum. I thought that was borderline. This one was an easy one, but it's a sleeper movie, so I wanted to shout it out. Roger Greenberg. Oh, yeah. I think Kamala for sure. Kamala for sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
language, previously unread language on these ancient scrolls, deciphering these stories. The first word that they discovered in these ancient Greek scrolls that had been burned was purple. I mean, the guy seems super excited, super smart, super earnest. And I understand the instinct to be like, wait a minute. Let's not tear people down. They aren't responsible for Elon's sins.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yeah, he might have actually moped and not voted. The James Murphy soundtrack on that is so good. Okay, and finally, your four main characters, the office characters in Severance. Who are they? Who are they voting for in the 2024 election as their outies? Okay. As their outies. Their innies wouldn't know what's happening. I'm not letting you off the hook.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
The other three for Kamala. Ben Stiller, thank you so much for taking all the time. Everybody go watch Severance. If you are watching it, listen to the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam. It is delightful. And do you have anything else you want to promote? Anything else you're selling?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Yeah, thanks. I kind of feel like when I get those bros over on my pod, I kind of let their hair down a little more and like give, you know, kind of.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
they're not worried that the that the audience might get mad yeah yeah and uh so we got him to let loose yeah we had like 18 minutes of just like his inner anger came out and for for he's he's kind of a vulcan you know so like getting his inner anger out i thought was i i enjoyed it so i'm glad you did um do you want to talk about the nuggets or the next at all Oh, fuck!
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
We were supposed to talk about that. Let's do it really quick. How do you feel?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
They're so fun to watch. And Cat in New York, huge. I was like, is this really going to work? Because he's kind of an eccentric guy in the big New York media.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I've got my Donovan Mitchell hate from our bubble jazz Nuggets rivalry days. So I can't be for the Cavs. Okay. F the Celtics, obviously. Yes. F the Sixers, obviously. So I don't know. The Knicks are kind of like, in a weird way, it's like New York. So usually, you know, like the Yankees are always hated. But the Knicks are kind of like the lovable...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Oh, man. You look great, man. I wouldn't have pegged you for going back Earl Monroe, Clyde Frazier era.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Now I'm worried about you. I'm worried about the letdown, like the crash might be kind of hard if it doesn't happen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I'm sympathetic to that. I really am. I look at these videos and I'm like, wow, this kid is amazing. This is exactly the kind of kid you'd want working in the government in a different situation. And that's the element of this, in a different situation. Some of the other guys have been having people send me links to their social media feeds. They've been retweeting Nick Fuentes, who's this
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Is it possible that Nico, the GM, was severed from what was happening on the basketball court when he was making the deal with the Lakers?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I mean, they definitely are scarier against the Nuggets this year for like the year 2025, having AD and those two centers that they got. Like they got a lot of size to throw at Jokic. That's how the Timberwolves beat us. So I kind of don't want to draw them in the playoffs this year. But it's still insane long term.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
The West is going to be tough. I don't know. It'll be interesting. I don't know about the Luca LeBron pairing, but long-term Luke is going to be unbelievable there. It's just, I don't know. How do the Lakers get so effing lucky?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
They seem to, you know, if we weren't in a simulation, if the NBA wasn't rigged, like if, if every once in a while, you know, bat like karma hit people that deserve to get bad karma for once, what would happen would be, Luca was like, I didn't agree to go to the Lakers. I don't really like LA. I'm pasty skinned. It's too much glitz and glamour for me. I love my boy Jokic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I'm going to sign with the Nuggets when my contract expires. That would be, we never get to have nice things like that. Like, you know, it's a smaller market team getting a free agent, but I don't see that happening for us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I think it was a separate, there've been a lot of conspiracy theories out there, but I think that like Nico just maybe seeing Luca looking fat in like, maybe in like the office building, but then it's, it's, he gets, his brain gets severed when he's watching the court. That's like a different thing than when he's meeting with them. And he's like, why is this fat guy the best player on our team?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I love that Russillo in his sports pod, he was like, Luca could be smoking cigarettes on the bench and I still would not have made this trade.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
He's incredible. All right. I'm glad. That was a good prompt. Thank you. You're in charge of the show now. Come back anytime. I really appreciate it. Thanks, man. All right. Ben Silver. Everybody, go listen to the Severance podcast. We'll be back here tomorrow. We're going to have to talk more about the news tomorrow. I'm sorry. We'll be back here tomorrow. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
neo-Nazi, Nazi youth, whatever you want to call it, Groeper, Nazi adjacent, you know, this young kind of white identity politics, the leader of this kind of young men who play white identity politics, who make a lot of racist and conspiratorial statements, you know, he's this, some of these other guys are between the Quintus. So I, you know, Luke might be great.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Some of the other people Elon has doing this might be racist or trolls or not great. I don't know. It doesn't fucking matter is the thing. Like we have laws. We have ways the government should work.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
22-year-old wunderkinds who have not had security clearance should not be implementing mass firings of career USAID servants who are running around throughout the world, advancing American soft power, helping people, advancing freedom, helping actually make people healthy, not in the Maha sense, but in the sense of providing medicine to troubled, displaced people who need it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I mean, a lot of people out there that are doing really good work, earnest workers that shouldn't be bullied by 22-year-olds who are being sent into the government as if this is a fucking private equity firm that's stripping down a company for parts. We have laws. We have regulations. There are ways to go about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
If there are programs that don't work, they have a Republican fucking Congress and Senate that could pass a piece of legislation that... Done whatever they want. Shutter USAID if you want. Pass it through the House and Senate. Use reconciliation. Get Donald Trump to sign it. Okay. The fact that a couple of these kids might be smart and earnest does not make their mission a noble one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It does not alibi the fact that Elon Musk is doing this in a way that is extra legal. So I just wanted to take an opportunity to weigh in on that since I didn't want to burden Ben Stiller with that. Ben Stiller is unburdened by what is happening with 22-year-olds in the Department of Treasury. Unfortunately, I'm not. And so, after this, I'll pass it over to Ben. We do severance. We'll dodgeball.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It wasn't maybe quite as light affair as I wanted, but there are at least some laughs for everybody. So I hope you enjoy it. We're taping this on Tuesday afternoon because I'm headed out to Palm Springs for a book festival for the rest of the week. And so if something happens between Tuesday night and Wednesday morning that wasn't covered here, you'll know why.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
At the very end, he's going to tell me who he thinks famous Ben Stiller characters voted for in the 2024 election. I find that very delightful. We do a little Nuggets and Knicks talk. I hope you guys enjoy it as much as I did. I'll be back on the con Thursday with Friend of the Pod. Look forward to seeing you all then. Up next, Ben Stiller. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I'm your host, Tim Miller. After going full totalitarian autocracy fears yesterday, I promised you a little bit of fun. So I'm delighted to be here with the executive producer of the new Apple Plus show, Severance. I guess it's not a new show. The second season is new out now. And the host of the Severance with Adam and Ben pod. He's done a bunch of other stuff. You might have heard of him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
It's Ben Stiller. How are you doing, Ben? Hey.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Oh, man, that's embarrassing. But thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Well, I appreciate that. Because, you know, a big part of me wanted to just like, get under the covers and like watch sad movies and like read, read depressing Nazi era fiction and just like check out but like, unfortunately, I had a job to do. So honestly, it's been good for me to to like kind of wake up and have to do this every day, talk to people, process it, you know, that's that's healthy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Well, thanks. I mean, it's not exactly the coal mines. I'm not exactly Zoolander in the mines here, but I appreciate it. I'm doing my best. I do want to start one. Well, I guess it's kind of heavy or it could be funny. We could take it whatever way you want. But I was listening to your New York Times interview and you kind of started talking about
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
like you know the nature of reality in the context of the severance show and so i wanted to start here is this real like are we alive is it possible that we're severed from like a better earth somewhere else you know have you have you thought i've been thinking about that at all the last month it's been a weird month i mean honestly i've been thinking about yeah just reality in general and i don't know if that's just where i'm at in my life or you know
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
You might give me some insights. I'm just thinking about the 19-year-olds that are running the Treasury Department right now, and I'm like, maybe actually there's a 19-year-old up there in the sky running this whole thing, and he's getting a good laugh.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
But before we get to Ben, I just had a few stray thoughts on some news items. I just wanted to... to share with everybody. The first one is, it's kind of an action item. Tom Malinowski, former Congressman from New Jersey.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
Have you thought about this? I mean, you've got to be thinking about how to engage. And obviously, you've done some political engagement before, some charity work, of course. You're doing this. You don't have to do this. I'm sure some people's PR people would be like, why are you going to talk to Tim? Who the hell knows what he's going to get you to say about the president?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
And the Scheinhardt wig company might get mad at us, our corporate overlords. So how are you thinking about all that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I think we're going to hopefully have him on the pod here in the next couple of weeks to talk about this at greater length, but he has a really, really great piece in the bulwark that was out on Tuesday morning called five things Dems must do to fight Trump. Now go check that out if you haven't, because it gives a real, an action plan. And I know there are a lot of people that feel like,
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
What about the business side of this? I do promise we'll get to severance stuff at the end for severance nerds. We'll do plenty of severance talk because I'm obsessed. But I'm curious about the business side of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
In my world, in journalism or broadly defined, you're seeing some stuff from the Washington Post, from LA Times, from various other media outlets that are being more cautious now, that are pivoting, they're worried they might get sued. I'm wondering, are you seeing any changes in whether things are getting stifled creatively? From a Hollywood perspective, or do we not know yet?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ben Stiller: 'Severance,' but Real Life
I kind of feel like we... Didn't get that in the first Trump? I don't know why. It's not that there wasn't great art in the first Trump, but it wasn't like during that four years you look back on that and feel about it the way that you might about the civil rights movement, all this amazing music and movies. Why do you think that is?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Yes, he's saying they're retarded. He said they were retarded. He agreed with Autism Capital, who tweeted that American Americans are too retarded to do these jobs. Elon said, spot on. So that's what Elon thinks. And so I think that he would argue that he isn't looking for cheap labor. It's just that he can't find the Americans that he needs to do the job. And so he's a globalist.
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
85,000 a year.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
JBL's going full horseshoe. He's full horseshoe on this one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
The only actual news we have since yesterday's pod is Trump has endorsed Mike Johnson for Speaker, presumably averting the first hurdle there of the pre-presidency. He wrote in a bleat, the American people need immediate relief from all the destructive policies of the last administration. Speaker Mike Johnson is a good, hardworking, religious man. Interesting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Within the MAGA rubric, within the America First worldview, to the extent that it exists, JBL's point and Laura Loomer are absolutely right. We're going to now have two clips of people saying Laura Loomer is absolutely right, that people can just play on X for us to try to own us. But within the America First rubric, there's really no argument for the Elon position here. There just isn't.
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
And now, I'm not America first. I'm a globalist cuck. And so I think that we should probably have 500,000 H1B visas a year. We should let a thousand flowers bloom and bring more people into the country. And some of those very smart people that we bring in from around the world will create some other widget, which will create jobs for other people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
There is a free market Friedman view of all this, which I share. And so I technically would be on the side of capital, I guess, in this argument. But within the confines of their argument, I don't even understand the point. Elon is fighting a battle that is totally losing unless...
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
It is just such that the magas have traded out one class of capitalists that love unfettered immigration for a different class of capitalists that love unfettered immigration, and that Donald Trump just likes the attention of famous rich people, and now they're fucked and stuck with it, which I think is pretty possible.
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Because he mentioned the ones that he used.
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
He'll do the right thing and we'll continue to win. Mike has my complete and total endorsement. All caps MAGA. So there was some pushback on this. Steve Bannon and the folks at America Fest where I was at last week were booing. booing Johnson. Breitbart was trying to defenestrate him. There were some other people inside the caucus, like maybe 12, that said they wanted to get rid of him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Part of the other tension, though, between the Loomer MAGA and the Musk MAGA is that the good immigrants are different.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
And the good immigrants are just the white immigrants in the nativist world. And in the Musk vision, the good immigrants are the smart immigrants or whatever, like the immigrants that are good at STEM that we're getting. They're coming here largely, largely from Asia.
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
But Trump is trying to stop the nonsense early. Sarah, I want to start with you because I think you're the hardest hit by this result. If people on our YouTube feed, we had an amazing video where everybody gave their 2025 predictions. We have some really smart colleagues. Some of the predictions really tickled me.
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Yeah, right. I think your point, Sarah, this is an issue that now there's tension within both coalitions on. Right. To your point, I think both sides now are kind of split on this in some ways. It's just the Republicans have to govern. So I think it will be more acute on their side for the next four years.
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
The must thing, one of the eye opening things in my convo with Bannon was just that he even mentioned like, I mean, this guy gave a quarter billion. I don't like him, but like he made it happen. You know what I mean? And and I think that if Musk was you just kind of go back through the history of Trump's person of the moment that he likes, like the mooch or whatever, like the mooch was a donor.
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Right. Trump is a little bit stuck with Musk more than he's been with anybody else because of the amount of money that Musk has put in. And Musk is kind of his muscle now in threatening these senators that I'll go put in another 250 million in your Senate primaries. And Musk has his own audience of the Twitter weirdos that aren't necessarily OG MAGA, right? Musk has all of these
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
levers that give him way more power than anybody else that's been in the Trump orbit since he came on the stage.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
But your prediction, Sarah, was that there would be three Republican speakers in 2025. which is still in play, but I think was hurt a little bit by Mike Johnson surviving here through the first week of January.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Isn't the bigger vulnerability that Trump goes, I've learned that Elon is in bed with the Chinese and we just can't do this anymore with him. Yeah. Right. And like, we've got to cut him out. Like, it's just like, he's been undermining us with China and we've got to be tough on China. Like that seems to be a bigger vulnerability.
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Okay. Sarah, do you have one more?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Here's the thing. I kind of agree with you, JVL, but I hate to give them this out because they're going to use it. To your point, they know. The MAGA world knows. So during my conversation with Bannon, I'm just pulling out the transcript right now. He's talking about how he's trolling.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I forget what word he uses, like super mega trolling, mad, you know, troll maxing about this Trump third term thing and how the media plays into it. MSNBC does a view on it. And so there is something to that. I don't want to play it straight because they're not playing it straight.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
That said, though, the serious part that is underneath it is that they recognize that as soon as he's considered a lame duck, the house of cards really could crumble. And here's what Bannon wrote. He said, like they said about Louis XIV, after me, the deluge. there's nobody that can replace Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
He's a unifying figure and also a figure as a deliverer of blunt force trauma that only he can do to the established order. I'd love the opportunity to have Trump back. Like that's just flat. Like it is just a straight recognition that part of this is a game because they know that after Trump is mega question marks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I mean, the obvious thing is that if Trump doesn't run, he's going to try to, I have to tell you the saddest Kendall from succession moment at turning point USA that hit the cutting room floor on my material for that. I reported. So Bannon does the Trump 2028 stick on stage and the crowd cheers. Don jr. Is up after Bannon. And Don Jr.
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
comes out on stage looking fully like Kendall for Succession in a suit and sneakers and like super awkward, puffed up face. And like his first line is, thanks for the endorsement there, Steve. And the crowd is just like silent. And then he's like, just joking, just joking. And then he starts chuckling to himself. And everybody's like... It didn't even occur to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
People didn't even... When Steve was in Don Jr. 's head, he was like, Trump 2028, he's talking about me. I can make a joke about that. The crowd didn't even get the joke because they're not even contemplating that Don Jr. could have been the person that he was referencing. It was a pretty funny Veep-ish successionist moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Many too many years ahead to discuss that question. So just let it hang over the ether. We're here. We're together. We're pals. We're not going to be able to, you know, kiss at this clock striking midnight tonight here. And so I want to do now close with our 2025 personal and professional New Year's resolutions. I've prepped you. So if you don't have any, it's your fault.
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
JVL, I would like for you to start.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Can we just talk about why you don't do personal ones first? Because you're growing all year long or because you don't want to grow?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
This is why I'm a good host. I've grown as a host. Doesn't matter. To ask that follow-up question there to get JVL to reveal that he finds them insipid or toxic was really inspired. I do wonder, but do you do a Lenten resolution? Why is that different? As a good Catholic, you must do a Lenten resolution.
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Do you not need penance? In the new year as well? You just need penance once a year?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Let me push back on the Panama Canal, on both actually, and talk this out. Is the Panama Canal bullshit not going to impact the actions of the leaders of Panama? No. I agree. It's crazy. Having an insane president making wild threats at other countries, though, will impact the way other countries act. So is it nothing or is it bait or is it an actual geopolitical threat?
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
news item that should be covered?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I wanted to hear what Sarah thinks about your resolution.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
You can imagine him saying Cuba should be- Yeah, well, which part is his game and which part of his real aim is-
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Yeah. You haven't won me over, but I knew what your resolution was going to be since you kind of were to try it about it already. And mine is related. And so I'm going second to then Sarah can close us. You can see where my kind of agreement and disagreement might be. My work resolution is actually related to my personal resolution, which is I'm only going to care about what I care about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
And that is like maybe a little more solipsistic than yours about how to think about what what to cover and what to talk about. But I guess my point to you in pushing back gently on the Panama thing was. I don't know what is actually going to matter. I don't. You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
JVL, what do you think, Mike Johnson, survivor?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I think that you having the North Star is correct, right, of we should only focus on things that actually impact people and have an actual effect on people's lives, and we should try to focus on that more and not focus on the ephemera.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
But I think that there have been a lot of times in Trump's world where, like, sometimes he bleats random shit, and then the people around him, like, make it happen, right? You know what I mean? Like, things come into fruition just because it came out of his pie hole, you know? And other times, things that you would think that he was really focused on fizzled, right?
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Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
And so, like, to me, as I was just thinking about this on the slopes last week, I was like, I think the best guiding force for me, and it's related to the 1990s term of work-life balance, is like... There are certain things I know I care about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
In the home life, I care about my family and I should not be paying attention to whatever I'm doing with my child because I'm focused on some stupid shit that Donald Trump is saying that I don't really care about or some stupid fight between Vivek and whatever. I should at least try. Again, this is all aspirational. I should at least try to just care about the things that I care about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I think there's going to be a lot of things that he does that I do care about. Right. And that make me very mad or upset or laughter. Laughter is a form of caring lap pointing and laughing is also OK. You know, and there will be some things that are maybe serious that I just I can't be made to care about because I only have so much room in my in my heart or in my in my gut.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
And so that is, I think, how I'm going to try to try to deal with it. And I think that is something that's obviously particularly relevant for us, deciding what we're going to write and talk about. But I think it's also probably relevant to listeners.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
The number of people over the last two weeks who have been like, ooh, I had to take a week off, or ooh, I had to do this, or I had to do that, or I wanted to take a week off, but then I just had to listen to what you had to say. My response has always been awesome, like great. You should care about what you care about. I'm not saying you should do the Benedict option and move into the woods.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
But you should find things that you care about in your community and focus on the things that you find nutritious. Hopefully, we will be providing a good amount of that. If sometimes it feels unnutritious for a week, that's fine. It's going to be a long ass four years. And so that's kind of my mindset, which is, I guess, a little bit different than what you're saying, but not really.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
It's directionally the same. I'm just processing it a little different.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
We accidentally went to Spanish Mass Christmas in Vail. We forgot. We didn't look that closely at the schedule. I'm trying to say this in an appropriate manner. The types of people that go to Spanish Mass in a ski town are working class people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
And I wasn't checking anybody's papers, but it was a very working class audience with a couple of turistas like us who didn't check the schedule that closely. And it was hard for me to not... think about the other side of the coin of what you're talking about. This is something that I care about. I was just looking around and I was being like, I cannot let Christmas Mass be about Donald Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
That is not healthy. But it was hard to not just look around and be like, I don't think that the plans are such that will be very peaceful for communities such as this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Sarah, do you have any final thoughts for you? Give us your, uh, 2025 resolution.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Four years and a month.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I think I might take the under, but I do think that the Trump lead is kind of like a covenant eyes on Johnson. It was like an endorsement, but it's also and I'm watching you. You know, we're going to win. We need to win. And I'm going to be monitoring, you know, your private Internet searches.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
This has been a good show, long show. Poor Jason is going to be editing this all the way through his New Year's party. So I want to get to Sarah's 2025 resolution. And I do just want to say one thing because we're cross-talking a little bit. I'm actually more sympathetic to the JBL point of view on a lot of the other areas in immigration. for the simple reason that fear is a consequence.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Like even not doing the mass deportations, but freaking people out. This is where my inner lib comes in. Sometimes feelings do matter, not just facts. Okay, Sarah, I want your 2025 resolution to close this out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
People are going to think that I set you up for this. Okay, I'm getting uncomfortable with the compliments. No, no, no.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I do wonder, like, you know, as far as the debt ceiling thing, Bill and I talked about this a bit yesterday. And it does seem kind of similar to the way that Elon intervened in the year end election. budget battle.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I was talking to my in-house parliamentarian, my husband yesterday, and it's like the types of things that they'd have to, like, they have to get committees up, like the types of things that they'd have to do to actually extend this or eliminate the debt limit before the inauguration seems very implausible. And that this is really just more of a pressure.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Hold on, though. You're the boss, though. You say that there's going to be no calibration, but I was going to have a lawyer come on at the end of every podcast and correct any comments that I made that might be somewhat slanderous towards a MAGA person. That was going to be a new segment I was adding in 2025. Like Tony Reale, like stat boy at the end of PTI. Like Tony Reale at the end of PTI.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I was going to have a lawyer come in at the end and be like, Tim didn't really say that he was on ketamine. He was just saying that he may or may not use ketamine from time to time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I have an earnest connection between our resolutions, which is a lot of people go and check up subscribers by pretending to care about things they don't care about. There is no shortage of media out there of people pretending to be offended about shit that they aren't really offended about because they know that's going to do numbers. My one self-pat is I don't really think that we do that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I think that to your point, the growth and expansion has been from people that find
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
the stuff that we're doing actually genuine and substantive and so uh in order to keep being able to do that we need your help to go out and tell people about us because we don't get quite as many you know what i mean you don't uh it is easier to go out there and be like i'm really fucking pissed about this thing that is in the news in a given moment and sometimes there are many times there are things in the news in a given moment that i'm really fucking pissed about and that does help
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
but doing it all day every day is not something that we're going to be doing. And so we need your help to, to help us grow. So JVL, do you have any other final thoughts or wishes for 2025 darkness?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
It's a question of whether this is a pressure game that Trump is putting on Johnson or, you know, whether he's just he just doesn't know anything and just like, let's just get rid of it now. Why not? I'm a dictator. I'm a quasi dictator.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
All right. Well, let's go ahead and do it, everybody. It's 2025. Maybe by the time you're listening to it or this or later tonight. So take it easy this evening with your friends. On Thursday, we will begin again on this podcast. We'll see you all then. Thanks to Sarah and JBL. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is New Year's Eve, so I'm here with my besties. It's Sarah Longwell, publisher of The Bulwark and JVL, editor of The Bulwark, author of the Triad newsletter. It's an underrated newsletter. I'm not sure if you've heard of it. Sarah reads it from time to time. How are you doing, guys? How's your holiday been?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brout.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Yeah, there might only be eight deficit hawk true believers in the house. Frankly, there might only be two. It might only be Tom Massey and Chip Roy. I don't know. They might have a couple other buddies there, but they don't have room for much more than two to give away. And I do think that eliminating the debt limit might just be the one thing that could push them a little bit too far.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
There might just be two or three crazy true believers that I think will oppose that gambit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
JV, what do you think?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I'm sorry, there are a lot of Keynesians and Pikettis out there that would see this as a big win. That's like, money isn't real. We could just now spend forever. They won't be able to use this against us next time we get in power if we ever win again. That's the mindset.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
The Wall Street Journal editorial board, give them credit for being the grownups in the room. Right. Willing to do the job, make sure that the market's kept running. No, I don't think so. I want to go a little bit deeper. We've been texting. We don't talk that much. We've been texting a little bit about the MAGA versus Doge, the Nationalists versus the Tech Bros, however we want to...
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
define this fight. And I guess JVL, shockingly, on text is siding with Steve Bannon. So I want to get to that in a second. But Sarah, I'm just interested in your top line thoughts, kind of watching this fight from your from your winter cottage.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I've missed you guys.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Yeah. Shriram Krishnan is his name. He's an AI advisor. I actually, like you was trying to stay off. So it was unclear to me who, who fired the first shot in this battle. I don't know what the Lexington and Concord was of Shriram Krishnan, but, um, He was the person that set this off. And it's not just that he's it is that he's Indian, but it also he has been a big advocate for these H-1B visas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
But but the anti-Indian sentiment was was certainly a big part of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Have you not been talking to the people at the lesbian cottage that you're in?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
It was piquing JBL's interest, I notice. It was piquing JBL's interest, a critique of the American culture and the American worker from Vivek. All of a sudden, JBL's like, ooh, I might be Doge-curious.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
In the woods?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
The anti-Indian rhetoric. I think we can all stipulate. Before I play this next clip, I just want to all stipulate very clearly. There is anti-Indian racism among MAGA. It is not good. We are disgusted by it. These people are gross. Everyone should be aware of it. We can stipulate this. The people that are perpetrating this are bad people that have dark souls and should go to confession. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Okay. One such person, though, Laura Loomer... was making some interesting points on Steve Bannon's podcast recently, and I'd like to listen to it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
JBL is going full Lumer Bannon, I think, right now. I could have written that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
Is it Piketty or Piketty?
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I'm sure the super libs that listen will let us know in the comments.
The Bulwark Podcast
Sarah Longwell and Jonathan V. Last: We Are Sticking With the Mission
I had the same thing, Sarah. We have our kids at the same age. Like the fact that they're going to remember this next administration was like actually the saddest thing for me on election night. JVL has already dealt with us. He has grown children. So, you know, they've already had their night, their childish naivete dashed, you know, by the world. But it's tough. Okay, much to discuss.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Oh, battle him of the Republic where it's going to play. All the dignitaries are going to stand there and we're going to have salutes from the military. Like fuck all of this. Why is everybody going along with all of this? Tom, you are a protector of norms. Am I wrong? Fuck it all. I was like, why, why give him this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I mean, it is the first time that we have had an inauguration for somebody who attempted a coup. Yeah, of a convicted felon. And of a felon. The felony actually I care less about than – because you could have an honorable felon. Somebody got a DUI as a felon and then ends up becoming the president who is whatever. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
He instigated an attack on the Constitution in the building where he took the oath that he obviously doesn't care about. It's a sham. Right. It's a sham.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Oh, man. I have a Democrat's rant. Let's just table it because I have a few other rants about Trump first before we get to the Democrats. But I do hear you on that point. Let's go to the big tech CEOs next, unless you have a different place you'd like to go.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
The voting public is definitely on my list of people who are failures yesterday, which is pretty much everybody.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Yeah, you haven't even seen this list I'm looking through right now. I don't know about you, but I'm in the market for some retail therapy this week. And with a new year comes a new chance to reimagine our closet. And now we can, thanks to our sponsor, Quince. I think everybody needs Quince's Mongolian cashmere sweaters, starting at 60 bucks, especially on these chilly January days.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
And there's no better workout motivation than some new active wear. Their performance tees and tech shorts are perfect for any movement. However you choose to refresh your closet, all Quint's pieces are priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. And they're able to do that by partnering directly with top factories, cutting out the cost of the middleman, and passing the savings on to you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Of course, they use premium fabrics and finishes for that luxury feel in every piece. I've been pumped about my new Quince clothes. Though I do have to admit, my favorite item is, is it not really a winter item? It's like an army green shacket. And I'm excited to start wearing once it warms up a little bit. It snowed in New Orleans this week. I'm in New York, so I didn't get to see it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
A 60-year snow. My child FaceTimed me. and said, did you know that the last time it snowed in New Orleans, you weren't even born yet? I was kind of blowing her mind. And so, you know, it's going to take a little bit till I get to get into spring wear. But Quince has set me up with a bunch of new looks that I've tried on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
And I'm excited to debut to you on the YouTube feed here once that 50 year storm blows over. So you want to join me? Upgrade your closet this year with the upgraded price tag. Go to quince.com slash the bulwark for 365-day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash the bulwark to get free shipping and 365-day returns. quince.com slash the bulwark.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Let's go to the big tech CEOs, though, because I think it might end up being the most significant thing from the inauguration. The combined net worth of the four wealthiest people who are in the front row of Trump's inauguration is $1.06 trillion. It was Google CEO Sundar, Musk. Who else was there? Zuckerberg, Bezos. They were all in row one, and then you had RFK.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
seated behind them and the rest of the cabinet, which tells you something. Out in the audience, Tulsi, the nominee to be the Director of National Intelligence, was seated next to Shou Chu, the CEO of a Chinese spyware app, TikTok. They were seated right next to each other, the director of national intelligence.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
And so, you know, I think that from a populist standpoint, there might be some political ramifications for them. But I also think that maybe the bumpers on Trump this time won't actually be the cabinet, but the bumpers and pool noodles will come from all the rich people that have decided that they want to hang around with him this time. So open season on any of that, Tom.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Well, he cares about keeping brown immigrants out, tariffs, and vengeance against his foes. He cares about three things, I think. And himself, and like ego, ego. So like that's...
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I think that probably some of the listeners are going to want for me to go next to the Elon Nazi salute at the post inauguration, at the traditional post inauguration rally held inside the basketball arena. He does this thing where he says, my heart goes out to you and kind of touches his heart and then does a little bit of a seek Kyle type thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I judged that to be a person like on the Asperger's spectrum doing a very weird salute. My heart goes out to people. I don't know what's going on in Elon Musk's head or heart. Could also have been a troll. Could have been intentional. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I do think it's pretty silly to focus on when you have a man that is one of the richest people in the world that has now an office in the White House who is also a government contractor and And gave a quarter billion dollars to the very malleable, as you say, incoming president.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Like the scale of corruption that is coming, the scale of people of putting the thumb of giving little assistance and handouts and favors to friends of Elon. friends of the other four richest men in the world that were sitting there. I feel like that is going to have much greater consequences and probably is a better place to focus. But I'm curious your thoughts on either of those.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
You could sell me definitely on Elon Musk doing a Star Trek salute and not realizing it was the same thing as Hitler. I definitely think that is possible.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Vivek's out of Doge. Yeah. He didn't even last a full Scaramucci. Yeah, no, that's right. He was out before the administration even started.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Yeah, I don't know. What do you think about some of our friends on the left? As you pointed out, Biden in his farewell address focuses on the tech industrial complex. I think that there is going to be a very strong move towards doing a eat the rich type economic populism targeting the Trump billionaires as the Democrats path out of the wilderness. Some elements of that make me a little bit queasy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Yeah, let's look at the pardons a little bit. So it was just, I believe last week, maybe it's two weeks ago. It's hard to tell. I'm aging in dog years. But the now Vice President J.D. Vance said that if you committed violence on that day, obviously you shouldn't be pardoned. Obviously, he said.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
you know, when we start talking about vigilante murders, but I do think that it is, and it is just undeniably a massive problem.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
political issue for like the working class party for these to be the images isn't it like the gilded class and the gilded capital used to be no no no the republicans if the republicans want to be the new working class party it's like we're in the gilded capital with the richest guys in the world and their new wives and all the tech guys are looking at business as new wives like a little cleavage and it's like is this this is the hunger games like the forgotten man isn't up there behind the scenes behind the stage rather
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Populism is having an inauguration speech about two genders in the Gulf of America. OK, populism is not about economics.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
To throw out a couple of the people that were pardoned yesterday, David Dempsey was convicted of assaulting police officers with pepper spray, a metal crutch, wooden and metal poles, sentenced to 20 years in prison. Daniel Rodriguez was convicted of using a stun gun and plunging it multiple times into Michael Fanone's neck. Brian Sicknick's attacker was pardoned.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Not really a problem for us with the tens of trillions of dollars in debts that we have getting the money back into circulation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I don't know. I think the eat the rich stuff is... It's going to be a tempting path for the Democrats when you have these.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Yeah, much more to talk about this. And I think that also just the cronyism element of it might be good enough in itself. That Donald Trump has betrayed them, that he doesn't care about them. He only cares about his new rich buddies that are kissing his butt. You almost saw it with the visa thing that broke out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I want to end with some more theater criticism, but just one more actual real life consequence of Trump's inauguration yesterday. So there had been put in place a new app, CBP app, that was allowing people in a more orderly way to apply for asylum to come to the border, which is what I've been told everybody wants, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
They didn't want people coming across the border illegally and uncontrolled who wanted to be able to vet these people. And so that app had been creating a more orderly system. Unauthorized border crossings have been down. As soon as Trump was inaugurated, they shut down the app, of course.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Their family put out a statement they sent to me this morning. His brother sent me this morning that's saying that there are no words that adequately describe the pain of losing Brian and the suffering we have endured every day since never to end. These pardons are intended to end a grave national injustice that has been perpetrated on the American people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
So there were some images yesterday of people that had been doing what we're told you're supposed to do, wait in line for their opportunity to come back. There was a video of a woman just bawling who I think had an appointment like three hours after the app went down.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
And so I don't know that there will be any political consequence to this because it seems like the country doesn't really care about our tradition of welcoming people, the tired and poor and huddled masses. But that doesn't make it any less interesting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Also putting flags at full mast for every inauguration. Right, right. Important stuff like that, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Yes. Well, I don't know if you sound weird. Hopefully, maybe that resonates with some people. But no, I am filled with rage. I am like a poo-flinging monkey right now. I am filled with rage at everyone. And I have no optimism. And I think that things are going to just absolutely get worse and worse every day.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
and to begin the process of national reconciliation. It's up to the American people to decide whether this purpose will be achieved. Michael Fanone had a little stronger words than that. I want to play that for you. Thanks, America.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Screw you, Tim. I'm depressed again. You did it. You win. I had one more thing that I just had to mention about the speech. I have three more like, and this is grinding my gears. What was that? It's our second Simpsons reference. So it was the Ken Brockman segment. What's grinding your gears this week? I had three more things yesterday that were grinding my gears. This is the liberation of America.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
And I guess this combines, so we'll just combine the topics to my second thing, grinding my gears, which was the media's treatment of yesterday. That was the kind of rhetoric that you would use if you are overthrowing a despot. And that was really the frame that Trump framed up his whole speech about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
There was these attacks on the freedoms of MAGA Americans and free speech, and the Justice Department was politicized, and now I am here to liberate the country. Again, just like the birthright citizenship thing, that is a fundamentally un-American view. It was not in line with the other inaugural addresses that bestow the virtues of America to
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Talk about how maybe we don't live up to the Constitution and Declaration, but we're trying to improve. It was in line with 2016.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
The coverage. But shouldn't you treat it like it's interesting? So I just want to read a couple of things and you can riff. Yeah, sure. Politico this morning. Time to admit it. Trump is a great president. He's still trying to be a good one. That was a headline by John Harris, the editor of Politico.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I was watching network coverage yesterday and they come out of his like insane rants was like, you know, and there is Donald Trump advancing his message. There was a reporter who talked about how Elon was donating his time and that's the most that he can give to this country. CNN talked about how Trump's inauguration was within the realm of normalcy. Was it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Donnie Deutsch on Morning Joe this morning talked about how Democrats should start looking at what Trump is doing right from a winning point of view. Trump is giving people what they want. What are these people watching?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Like the Democrats really need to do something differently and should start, you know, what Donnie George says, start listening to the people and the media. The media shouldn't have the hair on fire that they did last time. It didn't work. And I kind of look at all that. I'm like, didn't it work? I mean, when Trump was president – There was hair on fire for four years about him, and then he lost.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
And then he went away to Mar-a-Lago, and we deplatformed him, and people stopped talking about him as much. And meanwhile, Fox and Steve Bannon called Joe Biden an illegitimate president his entire four years. Fox attacked Joe Biden and Kamala Harris from the first second that he was in there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
There was nobody saying, like, the Republicans really should have learned their lesson from Trump losing, and they should be a little more accommodating to Joe Biden right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
appropriate sirens in the background here in New York. It's pretty fucking outrageous that the people that attacked Brian Sicknick and Michael Fanone were pardoned.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Yeah, I think I've left the church, I guess is my point. But the media has a hard job. There's no doubt about that. I just think yesterday was just a failure. And it was just so... The suspending of disbelief. You don't have to suspend disbelief about Donald Trump's oath to cover it, I guess is my point. And I felt like I was seeing that across the board.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Like we all just got here from Mars. Yeah. Which takes me to the final one and even the Democrats. And this is my – I'm with you. If the Democrats want to learn from 2024 that they've got to talk more normal and re-find some cultural connection with parts of America, there are plenty of things that the Democrats need to do differently.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Obviously, the podcast house curmudgeon, Tom Nichols of The Atlantic. New audio book out about the death of expertise. Think we can throw some dirt on the expertise grave. Tom, how are you doing? Hanging in there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
If the lesson is they need to accommodate this more and attack him less, that is wrong. And I hate to pick on Amy Klobuchar, but I have to. This was Amy Klobuchar on MSNBC last night about her – Her job, her ministerial duties at the inauguration and the car ride that she had with Donald Trump and Joe Biden.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
It wasn't. What? You bet I wish I was in there. You bet I was wishing – you wish I was in the car with Donald Trump on the way to the – I wish you were. I mean, not in the way that you mean, Amy. Not in the way that you mean. And we have a new FBI, so I don't want to have any – don't take any subjects there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I'm just saying your options in this situation are stern and silent respect for the institution and your duties. That's one option. Or protest. That's the road I'm on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
protest or speaking to his face and saying you should not you are not going to do this you know to whatever group you want to harangue him about those are the options not like oh yay it's nice wasn't it cool i got to be in the limo we're in the transition i can think of that was like so we were in the car and we had a really great conversation we talked about the la fires and then he pardoned 1500 violent insurrectionists
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Did you mention during the LA Fires thing, did you ask him about the fact that he was threatening to not give money to the recovery because he doesn't like Gavin Newsom? Did that come up?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Where is the Amy Klobuchar that threw a comb at a staffer, I guess is my question, because that's the Amy Klobuchar that I wanted to see in the limousine. Not the, oh, let's make nice with Donald Trump and pretend like he might invite me back to the Oval Office and we're going to be able to do business together. Fuck that. Opposition. You're an opposition party right now. That is your job.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Do you have any other final thoughts you need to get off your chest about yesterday?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
You lead me right back into the dark. You signed up for this podcast today, Tom. It was the day after the inauguration. You could have said, Tim, I got to wash my hair the day after the inauguration. Can we do it on Valentine's Day? That would have been an option. You agreed. This is what you signed up for.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
On the seditious conspiracy, Enrique Tarrio, another person that was pardoned, he was being held in a medium security prison in Louisiana, was being processed out last night. In addition to organizing the Proud Boys' effort to disrupt the transfer of power on January 6th, he actually wasn't able to join
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
All right. Well, we'll have you back the first time Pete Hegseth has a crisis. Everybody can get excited for that. I'm sure he'll handle it really well. Just his experience as a co-host on a weekend talk show, I think has really set him up nicely for this. Tom Nichols, thank you, as always, for doing, you know, I think combat pay is deserved for the day after inauguration podcast.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
All right, everybody. With that, I'll be back tomorrow. We're going to do all tech oligarchs all the time. I've got a very exciting new guest on the pod. Looking forward to it. Tom Nichols. We'll see you next time. Everybody else, we'll see you tomorrow. Peace. The Board Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
the people that he had organized because he was already arrested on January 4th, two days earlier. He and a group set fire to a Black Lives Matter banner that they had seized from a historic black church in D.C. They were also part of a group that got into a fight outside another black church. Four people were stabbed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
During the inauguration yesterday, Trump was talking about how he was chosen by God. And then a few hours later, he pardoned and got released for prison somebody who was convicted of seditious conspiracy and convicted of attacks on multiple black churches.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Are you ready for my, my dark thought here? Might as well get there. Comp unions are kind of on the side of the rioters, I think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Maybe my only positive thing of the whole show, Pam Hemphill. was one of the defendants for her behavior on January 6th. She pled guilty. She put out a statement saying that she would not be accepting the pardon. She was guilty, and it was Trump who should be held accountable.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
One person with integrity. I guess my final thing on the pardon topic is... When you look at upcoming threats, I mean, I think that there are – and we're going to go through the plans that Trump has and the new incoming administration has on immigration and other matters. But I worry about as much – about rogue actors feeling empowered as I do about the actual administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
To me, that is one of the biggest threats of all this, right? The incentive is to just do whatever you want and figure that you'll get pardoned on the back end if you got a MAGA hat on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
All right. You parcel because I am just about ready to stroke out today. I have such a lengthy list of of things to do old man yell at cloud with you about the Google Doc, this amount of scrolling required to get to everything we're not going to be able to. Because as far as I'm concerned, basically every single person involved in yesterday brought shame on themselves at some level.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
All right. That was a good place to start. I get to go next.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
We're going to play a game. It's kind of like a deal. You get to pick one. I get to pick one. We'll go back and forth. I think that to me, probably the most outrageous thing yesterday was about birthright. It was the birthright citizenship.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Okay, great. Well, we're aligned. I want to read for people if they haven't, if they don't have their little pocket constitution handy, I would like to read for people the first sentence of the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and the state wherein they reside. All persons born.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
go ahead no i was just gonna say this is fucking insane the people that go waving around the constitution are not objecting to this is insane it is as clear as day in there you might not like it but guess what liberals don't like the second amendment like could joe biden have gone in on the first day of 2021 and said i have an executive order repealing the second amendment and you can no longer buy guns in this country until it's adjudicated through the court system like would anybody have been on board with that
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
The executive order includes people, by the way, born by parents who are legally in America. It doesn't even include, it isn't even just about people that are here illegally. Usha Vance and Kamala Harris would both not be citizens of the United States under the executive order that Trump put forth, at least until they got married. Everyone's just like, oh, whatever. No worries.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. There are 1,460 days left in the second presidency of Donald Trump. We have survived day one, which was a shameful and epic sham that was best summed up by the snapshot of Trump forgetting to put his hand on the Bible while he repeated an oath to the Constitution he had no intention of upholding. Who to discuss such a farce with?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Not even this Supreme Court is going to go along with this executive order. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
I think the only honorable choice was to abstain or protest. So Karen Pence and Michelle Obama, shout out to you. But given like the extent of my rage, I can't really decide where to start. So I'm giving you dealer's choice. What set you off the most?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
Yeah. The reason why it makes me upset, outside of the fact that it's just fundamentally un-American, is... And stupid. And stupid.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
And this is related to my whole problem with yesterday. Just as stagecraft and as statecraft, which I alluded to at the top,
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
like it's just all a farce it was a farce and donald trump knows it's a farce right he doesn't put his hand on the bible he gives a speech that's kind of normal kind of i want to get into the speech a little more i don't want to give him normal because there are some things that are pretty ridiculous in there and then he gives another speech an hour later he's kind of like what i really wanted to say but i knew i couldn't for the tv show portion of the inauguration what i really wanted to say is that adam kinzinger is a cry baby like that's really what i wanted to talk about
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
You know, Trump is not treating it with any seriousness. It's totally fake for him. He has no intention of upholding the Constitution. We know that because, you know, the last time he was in the Capitol, he was sicking a mob on it. I guess he didn't go, actually.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: A Farce and a Sham
But the last time there were Trump supporters in the Capitol, he sent them there to attack people and to disrupt the constitutional transfer of power. And hours after he accepted it, he says, I'm going to sign this executive order that just totally rejects something that is plain text inside the constitution. And yet we're all supposed to do this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
you know woke tim would say this is what the woke folks would say about this which is that poster was always bullshit and chris rock did kind of a bit on saturday night live this weekend about how like oh donald trump is going to you know the dignity of the office will be sullied an office held by multiple rapists and people who people who put their hand on the bible while their slaves like was pregnant with their baby you know and it's like
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
There's something to be said for that, right? Is it like, is actually, is it just like our naivete? Here's woke Tim. Is it our white privilege naivete that has just been, that has just been cracked? And like, we believed some stupid myths and it's time for us just to be a little more hard headed. Is that possible?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
So we're going to keep that in there because I think the conversation is informative around that question. But the good news is Moskowitz is not going anywhere. The Democrats are not going to lose a seat in the House of Representatives. All right. Up next, our friend Tom Nichols. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I've been having fun in the green room.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Some myth-making is good, is what you're saying. Of course it is. Calling us to our higher selves and building up the best parts of the country rather than obsessing over all the flaws, rather than reveling in the flaws and saying that the flaws are the good parts. That is a negative change.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
With a focus on conversation, you'll be ready to talk, wherever you go you all know me i'm saying i'm staying i'm not running from this asshole but um it's nice to imagine running it's nice to imagine you know a new life in punta del este or sao paulo
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And, you know, one way to make those daydreams something practical and useful is to just start learning a new language just in case you decide to pull the plug. And Babbel is a great way to do that, because if you end up just going on a vacation, which I plan on doing at minimum next summer, or, you know. Things get really serious and you decide it's time to become an expat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But before we get to the guest, we're in the final stretch between Christmas or Hanukkah or whatever you're celebrating this year. Trump is going to be president again, so we're saying Merry Christmas again. So if you want to be a Bulwark member and you haven't yet, you can go to thebulwark.com slash subscribe. That can be a Christmas present to yourself or to a loved one. Come on, join.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
You'll already have a good base from the practice and the work that you've done learning conversations using Babbel. With over 16 million subscriptions sold, Babbel's 14 award-winning language courses are backed by a 20-day money-back guarantee. So your gift to yourself or your loved one is risk-free. This holiday season, give the gift of language with Babbel.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Here's a special holiday deal for our listeners. Right now, get up to 60% off your Babbel subscription, but only for our listeners at babbel.com slash bulwark. Get up to 60% off at babbel.com slash bulwark. Spelled B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash bulwark. Rules and restrictions may apply. I can't follow up on your request that we get out of the darkness because there's only darkness in the news.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But maybe we can get out of the deep well of darkness into a shallower pond. There was a news item yesterday that didn't get a ton of attention. I'm interested in your reaction to it because I had a pretty strong reaction to it. Jared Moskowitz, a Democratic congressman who I've had on this podcast, I think is a good congressman who is a very tough guy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
In the oversight hearings and the bullshit oversight hearings that James Comer was doing, Moskowitz, I think, was the most savvy and kind of pushing back and exposing how BS these investigations into Biden were. He was the director of, I forget what they called in Florida, but emergency management, essentially, that might be the right title in Florida.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And he's friends with Matt Gaetz, which maybe raises a red flag. And I'm assuming that is what is underlining this. But he's been floated as the head of FEMA under Trump. And so you have these competing questions in a situation like this. It's a Democratic congressman that is in a swing. It's a Dem district, but it's a swingish district.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
So if you were to leave that to run FEMA, on the one hand, it's like, okay, this is an important role. And it's nice to have somebody that knows what they're fucking doing in this role, you know, if the big one comes or when the big one comes, you know, as far as earthquakes or hurricanes, whatever, the next four years. On the other hand, the Republicans have a very narrow House majority.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
If he leaves, DeSantis could keep that seat open for a while, give Mike Johnson some more breathing room. They could have a special election where a Republican takes that seat. That's very possible. It's not a safe seat. And the Machiavellian view of this, that the Democrats are going to play hardball, is it's insane for the Democrats to give up a seat in Congress to go do this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And we shouldn't assume that Donald Trump will pick Trump. a weekend talk show host to head FEMA. So like we should live in a world where you'd assume that the other party would pick somebody else that knows what they're doing when it comes to emergency management. And if not, let them, you know, wallow in their own incompetence. I'm curious where Tom Nichols falls on that question.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
We need to be together because out there in the rest of the world, it's scary and dark and bad. And so, you know, we might as well be dealing with that, processing it. You know my favorite word, processing all that together over this holiday season. Go to theblork.com slash subscribe. Today, of course, my guest is Professor Emeritus of the Naval War College. He's a staff writer at The Atlantic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
To me, this is the fundamental truism of Trump, right? Which is that the people who get involved because they think that they are going to be able to clean him up
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
are only made dirty by him right like he doesn't get clean they just get dirty like that's what happened like that is that's it like that's happened every single time there's like no counter exception and that i'll be allowed to do my job and do good things for america and my you know innate merit and talent will see me through and i won't get caught up in all this other horrible
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Yeah. You know, I mean, it's not like you become Deborah Birx. Yes. You become Deborah Birx. You go and you become Deborah Birx, who by all accounts is a serious person that just got totally sullied and her reputation ruined. Well, you know, while she tried to nudge Donald Trump to do better.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
He's the author of The Atlantic Daily Newsletter. His books include The Death of Expertise. Dropping on Christmas Eve is an audiobook rendition read by Tom himself. It is Tom Nichols. He just blew his nose in the green room. I don't know if that's happening on the audiobook, too, if people are just getting old man sounds. And what do you do? Do you freelance?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
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The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
We've been spending a lot of time on these tech oligarchs because I think, frankly, it's a related to Trump story. But just even distinct from Trump, it is, I think, the biggest story of the next four years. What is happening with these tech oligarchs as they try to centralize power and control over all of our lives?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I've been talking about this a little bit with Ann Applebaum on Friday and with others. But there was one little anecdote that I missed that was in the Atlantic Daily newsletter that I want to get your reaction to. It was first reported by Brian Schwartz and Dana Mattioli over at the Wall Street Journal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
The day before Thanksgiving at Mar-a-Lago, Mark Zuckerberg stood hand over heart as they played a rendition of the national anthem sung by January 6th prisoners. Yeah. That's where we're at. That's where we're at.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Zuck, who in 2017 was doing this apology tour where he went around the country listening to people and trying to understand where he had gone wrong and how Trump had taken over the country. And I'm trying to be an earnest... You know, I'm this earnest business leader who cares about you. No, no, no, no. This time I'm going to fly down to Mar-a-Lago. I'm going to suckle on Trump's toes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I'm going to put my hand over my heart as people that stormed the Capitol sing a rendition of the national anthem.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Do you do the Trump thing where you read the words on the page and then you vamp a little bit or what? Yeah, I stop every other paragraph and I go, so true, so true. So true. Great point, Tom. That is a good point, Tom. All right, Tom Nichols, I hear you're in Europe. You're in Europe, Prague, Brussels. What's the view from our European allies?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Have you seen Zuck's new outfit? He's got he's had a little makeover. Good, actually. But, you know, I mean, it speaks to the insecurities you're talking about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
The other example of this is Mark Andreessen. And I'm kind of obsessed with him right now because everybody's focused on Musk because he's so public about everything. And Zuckerberg because he's so famous. And Bezos. And, you know, Zuckerberg and Bezos have bent the knee. And Musk is, you know, the most powerful person. oligarch in the history of the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I mean, like certainly in the post-World War II era. I mean, if you go back to the robber baron era, there's a good analogy of somebody. I'm going to take issue with that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Let's take issue with that. I'm not sure. I want to wait to get to Andrew's. Go ahead. Let's talk about Musk.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
It's a fair caveat. Maybe powerful is the wrong word. I guess I'd say this. He's the country's biggest government contractor. And he also lives in the president-elect's bedroom, apparently, at his house. And so maybe powerful, but his influence, at least in this very moment, is not akin to anything that we've seen in a long time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And so I think that he deserves a lot of attention and sacks, as you mentioned, because of his podcast gets a lot of attention.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
learn more once the foreign policy starts to come into focus in the next administration. But I mean, he was very influential in choosing the VP. So here's the thing about Andreessen, though. is he's almost as rich as all these other guys, right? He runs the most powerful, I think, I keep throwing that around, but one of the most influential, one of the top VC firms in the Valley.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
He's on the board of Facebook. And he's very interested in AI and crypto. And I look at these two issues and like, what do these guys want, right? As I think you point out, a lot of them want attention. A lot of them are boys who were not popular in high school and have now got all this power and think they know everything and want attention. That's definitely part of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But they also are businessmen. They also want something financially. And Musk has a ton of interest. But the two main issues are AI and crypto and TikTok, which we've seen now Trump started to back off of. They were not happy with the regulatory regime around these products and these verticals.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And Andreessen, who has been going down to Mar-a-Lago, has apparently been interviewing people that are going to be regulating companies that he invests in. He explained to Barry Weiss why he ended up going all in for Trump. And it was around AI. And I want to listen to this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Wow. Okay. So there are two points here to tell your reaction to. One is he reveals that this is what he cares about. He doesn't want AI to be regulated in any way. And I think that is important in telling. Two, this conversation is obviously a lie, though. I'm sure he's unhappy with the Biden administration's policies towards AI.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But the notion that somebody in the Biden administration told them not to do AI startups and that they were going to classify big portions of AI like it was nukes. It was the Cold War. This doesn't feel like a real conversation, but what are your thoughts? Two thoughts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Usually as an interviewer, I'm learning how to be an interviewer. I'm relatively new to this. But if somebody tells you a story and your reaction to that is, wow, that seems crazy. Generally, maybe, I don't know, you follow up and try to get a little more. Who was this person that told you that? Was it Joe Biden himself? Was it Tony Blinken? Who was like, we're going to classify?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And is that how Cold War classification worked?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
You know, there's news in Romania. You know, there's coups in South Korea. There's stuff happening out there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Yeah, the respect that he deserves. The president should call me and should ask me about my expertise on anything that is all related to the technology sphere because I'm so successful. Or even unrelated. Or even unrelated.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I mean, that is a really... He's right about that, and it's important for the impact on all of our lives, for impact on policy, and for the Democrats' political layout, I think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Yeah, it goes against the ethos of what the contrarian Rogan bros like. And eventually these nerds are going to bite off more than they can chew, I think. If there's somebody you haven't bought a Christmas gift for here on December 17th, it might be because you're a procrastinator or it might be because they're kind of hard to shop for.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Luckily, there's one gift that everyone on your list is sure to enjoy, an Aura digital picture frame. Named number one by Wirecutter, Aura frames make it incredibly easy to share unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
When you give the Aura frame as a gift, you can personalize and preload it with a thoughtful message and photos using the Aura app, making it an ideal present for long-distance loved ones. It's a gift so special, they'll use it every day. The good people at Aura have been giving me, you know, some extra gifts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
aura carver matt digital frames so we've been handing them out and the fun part is you can give the same gift to your friend and to your aunt but have it be totally different have it be totally personalized the aunt is going to get pictures of my daughter and the family seeing what's happening out there you know now they can have a view into our life here in new orleans the friend
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
You can send them old, funny, drunk pictures from college. And it's like a whole different type of experience. It's a gift that works for everybody. So, save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames by using promo code BULLWORK at checkout. That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com, promo code BULLWORK.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. You mentioned the Assad defenestration, the overthrow of Assad and how you saw that from Europe. I do need to mention, I had referenced, I forget if it was with Bill or with Anne, the video of Clarissa Ward. And there was a man who was released by rebels from a Damascus jail.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And we talked about that and just how amazing that scene was. It turns out that that was a whiff and that the person that was imprisoned was not actually imprisoned. He was a intelligence officer for Assad that had tricked CNN. So Chris Ward's an amazing journalist, but CNN had to correct this kind of embarrassingly. Since I mentioned it on the pod the other day, I wanted to also mention that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
But regardless of that specific incident, these images of people being released from these prisons are moving, the real ones. And so I'm curious if you have just any other big picture thoughts on what's happening there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
More onions on my belt, as was the style at the time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
It is really unfortunate. All right. I feel an obligation to mention because we have all these school shootings happen so often that it's like, what do you even say anymore? There's not much to say. There's not much to talk about it. But there was a student and a teacher killed at Abundant Life Christian School in Madison, Wisconsin yesterday by a 15-year-old girl.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
A second grader called in the shooting, which tells you something about American life. The one thing I do want to mention about this, we don't need to go round and round on all the views around guns and just how irresponsible everyone has been on this issue over the course of decades now. But this young girl wrote about some Turkish neo-Nazis that she was reading online.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I'm sorry to be like a flip about this because it is just another horrific tragedy. And these people have died. But I don't know, man. I mean, like that is really dystopian. So I don't know if you have any thoughts on that before we can end people on a higher note. But I thought it was worth mentioning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Speaking of Andreessen, you know, I was like, I was this person on social media, you know, in my 20s, like teaching people how to get on to fucking MySpace and Twitter and stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
No, it's not. That's not counterintuitive. That's fine. I agree with that. And people should go do that. And, you know, you should get involved with other young people. You know, one of the most fulfilling things that I had done was done various mentorship programs. And frankly, I fell down on that a little bit during 2024. But, you know, going to work with kids, doing homework with them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
It's fulfilling for you. It's good for them. Teens need to have encounters with other humans that are constructive and that are filled with demonstrations that people care about them. And I do think that makes a difference and people should look into that. That'd be a good New Year's resolution for everybody in 2025. Let's end with, I have to dunk on you. You're so proud of yourself.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
You posted on the blue sky. You skied a Christmas playlist. And I got to tell you. I have put together over two decades. I've curated the ultimate Christmas playlist, the best playlist that exists on planet Earth. We'll put it in the show notes. We'll compare it to your sad limp playlist.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I have gone through all of the renditions of Joy to the World and just pulled out the best ones of everything, of O Come All Ye Faithful. We have everything from Nat King Cole to
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
all the way up to suffion stevens we have random songs that just mention christmas in the middle that aren't christmas songs it's everything it includes no crap no fucking no paul mccartney wonderful christmas time bullshit all right it's only bangers all right and so i put that together i want you to be able to do things that are fulfilling for you in your life so i'm happy that you're kind of just starting one of your own but i just i want to kind of set a higher bar for you
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
You know, let's just defeat kind of right. It's like this acceptance. Like this is I guess this is just who you Yankees are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I don't have any Andy Williams, so this will be a challenge. Oh, my God. Look at mine. I will peruse your Andy Williams, and we'll take it from there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I mean, the fact that that person exists, yes. Like, what does he look like? Oh, my God. Any fun facts about him?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Why don't we end on an agreement? All right, there we are. That's at the top of my list. The Waitress's Christmas Wrapping is so wonderful. That will wrap up the show. We'll take it out with the Waitress's Christmas Wrapping. And Jason, if you can throw in just David Bowie wishing everyone a Christmas 1984, that would be nice as well. And Tom Nichols, we can say Merry Christmas again.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
So Merry Christmas to you. Thank God. I will see you in the new year. As Freddie Mercury would say, thank God it's Christmas. Thank God it's Christmas. That's Tom Nichols. We'll see him in 2025. We'll be back here tomorrow with a serious discussion and a serious guest, as is needed in these serious times. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Well, last time we talked, it was two days after the election. I went and I was really listening to it in the shower this morning. I like to have Tom Nichols in my ear in the shower. And that's evocative. Thank you. And we were pretty defeated in that conversation and resigned. And I'm just curious, like, you've never had a vacation since then.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Since then, we've had Matt Gaetz nominated and then withdrawn as attorney general, Pete Agseth, Tulsi, RFK. All this has happened. The folding of the oligarchs, you know, to Donald Trump, the acquiescence. I'm just wondering how you assess the state of affairs right now versus how you did. on election night?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Hey everybody, it's Tim. During this podcast, me and Tom Nichols discuss speculation that Congressman Jared Moskowitz, a Democrat from Florida, was going to be named the FEMA director in the Trump administration since we taped... Moskowitz tweeted that he is not going to be interested in that job and that he'll be running for reelection as a Democrat in Florida, something that I commend him for.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
is gone you know fired by tweet at some point down the line yeah they're on a one-day contract i've been listening to that answer i want to get a little heavier with you for a second because there's this micro to despair not to despair question of should we hope that trump can be stopped and that his nominees can be stopped and are there things that we can do to minimize the damage and to win in the midterms and can the democrats win again in the future
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And I think both of us are on the side of like, yes, like things can be done. This is bad, but we must not descend in denialism. We must maintain, you know, the, the knowledge that we can fight, that we can recover. So I agree with you on that. I do wonder about this though, is that some of the people who are despairing, is it related to your Europe trip?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
And that the thing that they're despairing is that even if, He does fail, even if he does bumble, which we all expect. And even if the Democrats do win in the midterms, and even if the Democrats do win in 2028, like something fundamentally has now been broken that is unfixable. And that is what is underlying people's nihilism, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
That like the things that they cared about, the things that they thought that America was, it has been revealed that it is not those things and that it's not worth caring about these, you know, whatever it is, the traditions, the norms, the, you know, the majesty of American democracy, like that we've gone behind the curtain and the wizard is not there and it's Donald Trump, you know?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
That's beneath all these things that we have venerated. And that is what is leading people to despair, actually. And that, you know, well, maybe we can win some battles in the micro. In the macro, this thing is permanently fucked.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I want to leave that exchange, though, in the podcast, because I do think it speaks to some real fundamental questions about how this. Democrats and how the handful of anti-Trump Republicans that exist, how they should deal with this administration and kind of the ethics of that and the strategic thinking around, you know, how to engage with the Trump administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
I definitely have some neighbors that voted for David Dick saying that I'm in Louisiana. So that's an absolute comparison for me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tom Nichols: Don't Descend into Darkness
Just let that go. We're going down a rabbit hole. I didn't mean to go. We're going to get to the news, I promise. People who tune into this daily podcast for the news, we'll get there. This is what...
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Hey, y'all, so much happening today. So here's some programming notes. We are taping today's pod on Tuesday morning as the Pete Hegseth confirmation hearing is beginning. I just saw Joni Ernst's kind of lukewarm questioning of the SecDef nominee. The board's live on YouTube all day covering this hearing. Right now, as we speak, Sarah Longwell and Will Salatin are on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Maybe the owner of the LA Times should have been reading his own paper before posting about the supposed budget cuts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
That's one of the ones that gets me. This is where my complaints about the Democrats come in. Because I was reading a lot about the Santa Ynez Reservoir situation before we came on. I don't want to postulate like an expert, but it was empty since February.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
You know, and it's like a lot of times I see there's this trend of Democrats saying that using rhetoric that's catastrophic, but then their actions are extremely bureaucratic and limited, you know, and it's like, if so, like, if.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I appreciated your beautiful toast to my wedding. We'll do a little personal talk here. I want to talk a little bit about the fires, and then we'll get into the politics of that. We'll get into a little bit of what's happening on Capitol Hill. I said in the intro that this Hegseth hearing is happening right now as we spoke.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
you believe that because of climate change, like the risks to Los Angeles are higher than ever, like these preexisting risks about the Santa Ana winds are greater than ever because it's been dry, then you would think that you would have a sense of urgency to cut through certain bureaucratic hoops to ensure that like reservoirs are full, for example, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And I think like that is where some of the frustration comes in from like even within the Democratic coalition.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
We've gotten to see maybe an hour of it, so maybe we'll just talk about some initial impressions. But first, as I mentioned, you're in Venice. We've got multiple mutuals who've lost their houses. We've got mutuals who are out there delivering supplies to firefighters. Shout out to our boy Ian and his crew. You know, I mean, it's ugly. The winds kept getting worse yesterday afternoon.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I'll deputize this. I went past our current mayor. She's been spending a lot of time in Paris. But yeah, no, I hear you. To me, what this reminds me of actually is McCain, like the McCain and the economic crisis, right? Like how you lose the confidence, right? Where he said, oh, I'm going to suspend my campaign to have a meeting to like, how, what are we going to do about this economic collapse?
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And then he went to the meeting and didn't like actually do anything. Right. And then people are like, wait a minute.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
So before we get into kind of some rank punditry about the mayor, I just am curious, like from on the ground, your sense of the scale of the devastation and kind of how you're feeling about everything.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Your wife said she wasn't ready to pin it on any specific politician, and we shouldn't pin it on specific politicians until we know the facts. The Speaker of the House has a different point of view. He was in the hallway yesterday. Your old colleague from back when you were on CNN, Manu Raju, was asking him about whether aid to L.A. should be conditioned because of alleged mismanagement.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Let's hear what Mike Johnson had to say.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
So, Mike Johnson wants to condition aid to California on, I don't know, some reforms in brush management and maybe extend the debt limit throughout the Trump presidency so that they can pressure some Democrats into going along with the gambit to avoid running up against the debt limit. What do you think people in LA think about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I think they fall back on this, oh, blue state mismanagement, blue city mismanagement. That's the thing that frustrates me, too. It's just such BS about all this. Look, there's mismanagement. We can talk about all this. Liz Weil, if people missed that. on the pod last week. She's awesome. She's been covering this forever in California. You know, forest mismanagement.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
A lot of that's federal, by the way. A lot of the forests in California, they're being mismanaged.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Well, and I guess the parts that hit Katrina the worst were the poorest, were the lowest income areas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
It's also not about deregulation. There are plenty of things about deregulation. It's not about that in this case. And a lot of this is like the federal forests were under the Trump Department of Interior four years ago. It's just like a lot of this stuff is not even California land. You're talking about people's individual properties.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
But a lot of these other fires, these issues are in federal land. Anyway, so there's that. There's also just the obvious like the red state You know what I mean? This is just such a slippery slope, man. We've got these pumps out my window that aren't working right now here in New Orleans. And that's something that people are concerned about here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
If there's another hurricane, be insane for whoever's the president AOC in 2032 or whatever to be like, Jeff Landry, I'm not going to give you money because you didn't take climate change seriously enough. The whole thing is just... It's gross. And Mike Johnson is a pathetic little twerp.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Okay, at this point, everybody knows about my neighborhood camp, Aretha. I was out at the commissary here in New Orleans. If you ever visit New Orleans, they do a great job down at commissary. It's a little market. It has a lot of Louisiana food. And one of the employees there, he's a Bulwark fan, was checking in on the cat. Was checking in on Aretha because they listen to the ads.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
So we appreciate all of you. And I want to tell everybody the cat is doing great. Aretha was very excited when we came home. from holiday break, and we fetter the food from our newest sponsor, Smalls. This podcast is sponsored by Smalls. Smalls cat food is protein-packed recipes made with preservative-free ingredients you find in your fridge, and it's delivered right to your door.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
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The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
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The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
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The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
But you have to use my code THEBULLWORK for 50% off your first order. One last time, that's promo code THEBULLWORK for 50% off your first order plus free shipping. one last rank political thing about this. Then I want to do a social media stuff. Gavin, you know, I mean, Gavin wants to be the 2028 guy and there are things about Gavin that I like actually.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Um, I think that he's a pretty deft communicator, which is pretty important in this time for Democrats. I think that a lot of times he has his finger on the pulse of stuff that other Democrats don't as far as like speaking particularly in how to speak to kind of Republicans. That said, uh, He's got so much baggage, man. Like the baggage from all this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Like I saw him getting interviewed by an MS and you know, they're like, you guys got the Olympics coming, the Superbowl coming, the world cup coming to LA and Gavin's out there going, we're going to have a Marshall plan for Los Angeles. And I was watching this. I'm going, well, He's good at that, right? I have this big plan and I have a big message, a big optimistic message.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And that's all important in politics, being able to project positivity and project optimism and communicate and be a leader. All that's important. But are they actually going to be able to do it? I just think this is another kind of straw on the back of, you know, don't California my Ohio or don't California my Michigan if he were to decide to make a run in four years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Sam Stein and I are going to be on here this afternoon. You can check out an archive of our live stream on YouTube. Plus, for subscribers, we'll have a wrap-up. out on Tuesday evening. Go to thebullock.com slash subscribe. We'll have the team together with a wrap-up of the Pete Hegseth hearings.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I mean, that is why they've just turned to Donald Trump. No, no, I know. But like, it's a very good point, Tim. I'm sorry. I do have to just laugh, but I'm sorry. We're at the bulwark, so we have to do this. It's like the...
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
i hear this is right well everything you're saying is right and they're my complaints about gavin too but it's like i'm i'm upset at elites and i'm set it and i'm upset about incompetence and so what we need to turn to is somebody who is a total chaos agent who is a rich a richie rich man with a gold toilet who's surrounded himself by the by the world's richest billionaires
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
They're going to do it. Them and a Fox News weekend host. I'm concerned about competence in the elites, so we need a weekend TV host and billionaires to save us. I hear it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
It cuts both ways. Tim Walls catching strays. It does catch both ways with Gavin for me. I don't know. I go back and forth on it. We have a couple of things we're going to get to before I lose you. Speaking about all the billionaires around Trump, we have all of the leading social media oligarchs are tossing a salad. Now we've got Zuckerberg is dressing like a St.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Bart's DJ and talking about masculinity and going down to Mar-a-Lago for his pilgrimage. Bezos is giving Melania $40 million for a documentary about her and going to Mar-a-Lago. Elon is obviously Trump's shadow president. You also work for Snapchat. And so I am curious whether there have been any kind of strategic conversations there about ways for Snapchat to ingratiate themselves in for Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I have a couple ideas for you. Maybe citizens' arrests of illegal migrants in Venice by your CEO could be one thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I think he's going to be putting on the Kunta Kunta cloth like Nancy Pelosi. We're pivoting back the other direction. Yeah. This is why the whole thing is. Yeah. I mean, I guess. Sure. The Republican victory was robust in the context of the fact that it was Donald Trump who was indicted four times.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
You know what I mean? Like it wasn't robust in like the 1984 sense. And it was only a couple hundred thousand votes. You know, so it's kind of silly. Like Facebook, one of these like one of the biggest companies of the world with billions of people on your platform. And you're like, well, because of the views of 50,000 people in Green Bay, I'm going to change my entire policy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
You'd want a little more nuance than that, I think. But I've come around to the view that it reveals that Zuck really...
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
he really resented all this stuff he resented that he had to do trust and safety you know he resented that he had to you know care about what government you know bureaucrats wanted why do you have to resent trust and safety though like this is like your business and your platform and like your quote-unquote community which is such a phony ass term because it's such a massive user base but like that's what i'm saying it's all fake it's all fake he didn't want any of that right he
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
wanted people to be able to say the r slur and like do say pussy and like whatever like do you see the guy in the ft who's a banker there's a banker in the ft that was like now i can say retard and pussy again without being canceled it's like It's like, what? You're a rich banker speaking to the FT.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
You have perceived that you are being put upon all this time, that you are a vulnerable, at-risk person. As one of the richest people in the world, Mark Zuckerberg, or as a guy on finance in Wall Street, you've perceived that you are put upon. But when in fact, you just didn't like...
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
criticism i just think like these guys don't like being challenged they don't like criticism and this is not actually him trying to protect his company because i think he's putting himself at risk if the democrats ever get back in i think what this is is him like venting right and saying like oh i can finally be my worst self right now and i i i agree with you but i also think there's something else with zuckerberg which is and again i i would say this in contrast to evan at snap
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
What's the, what's the, I thought he should be running for president for a while. So I contemplated that member. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
We got to do a little tick tock, the band tick tock band supposed to go into effect here in five days. If, uh, ByteDance is not sold to American company or unless the Supreme Court intervenes. Ed Markey, Democratic senator from Massachusetts, has proposed a bill to delay the ban for 280 days. So that doesn't seem like that's going to happen, but that's out there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Some people, as of yesterday or a couple of days ago, are fleeing to a different Chinese run app called Red Note, named after Mao's Little Red Book. I guess the Chinese are pushing people to this other app, and now it's number one. So is Taylor Lorenz. Yeah, Taylor Lorenz has had it over there. I think she tweeted long live China or something.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I guess somebody who really deeply cares about free speech obviously appreciates what's happening over in China. And that is now the number one. This Red Note is the number one most downloaded app on the Apple Store right now. So I want you to assess the state of play. Before you do, I want to play for you a clip of From a TikTok creator who's sharing their thoughts, this is Supi.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
So my thoughts for Soupy, if an app has turned your brain into Tom Yum and you're preparing to overthrow the government to save it, maybe you should reflect on what's influencing you actually. But I think it's important to see what's out there. Soupy is viral. Millions upon millions of views.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
The Gen Z brain-dead TikTok consumer is very unhappy about the government, and they're ready to go red, I think, over this. So I'm wondering for your holistic view on TikTok and the thoughts shared there by Soupy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
But we appreciate you. Here's a better one for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Does the CCP not have First Amendment rights? I don't know how that works. Does Chairman Xi have First Amendment rights? We need to get George Conway.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
because china doesn't want tiktok in their own country sorry it's also banned in india by the way and they smartly banned it many years ago but i was told by taylor learns the chinese cared about free speech and free expression so i found that hard to believe i go yeah i don't know ma'am i hear you i this is the one where this is not this is bad content man bad content creation i have no fucking idea what trump's gonna do about this one i'm i kind of intrigued to watch i have no idea
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
that's what i'm saying like there could be he asked for a 90-day stay so he can figure out a deal he's a deal maker his little lawyer said in the brief trump's a deal he's a known deal maker yeah we'll get mr wonderful to buy it like all the all the rich guys andreason and mr wonderful and peter t on david ball sacks and elon can all pitch in and we'll see yeah
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Okay. Well, we'll have to look into that. There you go. There's Peter Hamby's South Carolina voice. His mean mom is from South Carolina. So, you know, you can yell at him if you don't think he did a good job with it. Do you want to take us out with anything? What are the tunes that have been bringing you solace during the fires out there? Do you have a...
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
You have an album you've been listening to? Something you can take the listeners out with today?
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And the one way in which it is Katrina asker, I think the comparison, at least based on what I've been hearing from people on the ground is that just, there are just these vast swaths, like in the Palisades that are just gone. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
I had somebody ask me to create a distraction playlist. I can't do it. I'm not feeling inspired. You know, my creative juices are not being moved by the inauguration. And so I don't think that I can... I can do an inauguration playlist. So, I don't know. We've been listening to a little Remy Wolf. And, you know, I've been listening to a little. I've been going back on this old Alex Chilton.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
You'll find this Alex Chilton. You know that song, Boogie Shoes? It was in Boogie Nights. Yeah. Alex Chilton. I found out he lived in New Orleans after the band was Big Star. And he lived in the Marigny or the Bywater, I forget, in like a dilapidated house after Big Star kind of fizzled. And he wasn't making any money anymore. And I was reading an article about him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
So this has me listening to some old Alex Chilton. So maybe some L'Imperatrice. I might go see L'Imperatrice on Sunday. So I've got them back in the rotation. They're good. Bad Bunny record. Anyway, but everybody, we're going to give them what you want. Fontaine's DC. We're going to play some Fontaine's DC for the people. I will say this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And I, you know, I mean, I just think that the scale of that, you know, it's something that's kind of hard for people to wrap their heads around and from like North Santa Monica up to PCH, like this, like the most, maybe the most beautiful urban section of the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
All right. I appreciate it. I like it when you share feelings, Peter. Well, Fontaine's DC might be a little hardcore for people. So the hardcore listeners among us can go find that on their Spotify or Apple Music app. And for everybody else, we'll send you out with some Clio. So we'll be back here tomorrow. As I mentioned in the intro, huge show tomorrow. All Hegseth all the time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And a little bit of the Jack Smith report once we've had a chance to dig deeper into that. So make sure to come on back here. And if you just are dying, if you can't wait till Wednesday's podcast, for Hegseth analysis, you can go to the bulwark.com slash subscribe. And we will have a Tuesday night recap on our sub stack with me and Sarah and Sam Stein and the gang.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
So you can check it out then everybody else. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Peter, hang in there in LA to all our other pals in LA. Hang in there. We appreciate you. We appreciate you, Ian, and our other bells are out there. Doing the work. Thank you, Ian.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
We have lots of friends out here. Our pals out there in LA. We appreciate everybody. Thanks for sticking around for the show. Hamby, we'll talk to you soon. Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
We also have the Jack Smith report out this morning, which I'm going to touch on with my guest a little bit today. But for the Wednesday pod, we have a favorite on who is perfect for a deep dive on both Hegseth and Smith. So keep an eye out for that today. We're going to focus more on what's happening with the fires and TikTok. So up next, my pal Peter Hampton.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
All right. So that's before we get to the Caruso and the Bass of it, I just, at the biggest level, I want to do a little kind of blame game stuff. Cause this is like always like what happens immediately on social media. And I think that like pretending that it's not happening is wrong. Because humans are humans, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And when something like this happens, they're going to want to look for somebody to blame, right? And so acting like, well, let's talk about this in three months, I think is silly. At the same time, we got to cut through the clutter. I wrote down a little bit of who people might blame here. Joan Didion would blame the Santa Anas. Democrats are saying this is all a climate change story.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Republicans are blaming just blue state incompetence. I had one of the newest Trump advisors, Mark Andreessen, one of the richest VCs in the country. I saw him on Twitter. He saw a story about Rory Sykes. who people might remember as a former child actor who was born blind and with cerebral palsy. He died in the fire. Marc Andreessen quote tweeted that with, this is the fault of specific people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
You kind of wrote about this in the context of Bass, but like the biggest picture, how people in California right now are adjudicating this blame game question.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And nobody ever blames her. She got lost in the crossfire of Nagin and Bush. He's like, I was governor of Florida. And he said, I was calling her, being like, I want to send people to help, like our National Guard and stuff. She wasn't returning calls. Anyway, there always is kind of the finger-pointing element. And some of it, it gets political.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Today, we've got a favorite content man of mine. He's a partner at Puck News, host of Snapchat's Good Luck America, and he lives in a Venice, California home once owned by a cast member of the TV sitcom Wings. He has a new piece out in Puck. The blood is in the water for Karen Bass. It's Peter Hamby. What's up, Hamby?
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
So you wrote about this for people can read the full piece. But I like what are the specific Karen Bass complaints? Like if we're just going to try to cut through the BS and like the VC posturing and like the DEI is D.I.E. like bullshit, you know, and I try to figure out what what are some actual things like one thing that comes up is that she's in Ghana.
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
And like there's a back and forth on this, right, is like when she left for Ghana, was it clear that that this could be extremely bad? And it seems like kind of, yes. And I noticed Gavin Newsom sort of ducked this question when he was asked about it on Pod Save America. Do you have a sense for that? Like when when she decided to leave Ghana? Were the red flags already here?
The Bulwark Podcast
Peter Hamby: The Politics of a Firestorm
Were the red sirens blaring enough that it was like you should have thought, oh, I don't know, maybe I should stick around and see how this goes? Or is that unfair?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
So in this case, you know, it's like, I mean, I guess, thank God, some of these guys are staying around to try to, you know, keep an eye on things, at least as long as it's possible.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
All right. I'm putting in an order for the captive mind. I guess I'll turn to that after the gay fiction that I'm currently reading as a respite from all of this. But it seems probably something that will be of value. I had somebody email me just the other day after JBL wrote his piece about them staying in. And he's like, isn't this opposite of what you, me, Tim had written in your book, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Because I was criticizing a lot of my friends who were politicals who had stuck around and they had rationalized sticking around in Trump 1.0 because they're like, if I leave, you won't believe the idiot that's going to come behind me. Like my point was always like your job isn't that important, right, to somebody.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
If you're the press staffer at Treasury, like it doesn't matter really if a groiper replaces you. And we're in a different kind of situation now, right? Like the people in charge of our data at the Treasury Department, right, are not the same as like some mid-level political staffer or PR staffer. Like I just think the choice is a lot more complicated in some of these situations.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
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The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
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The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
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The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
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The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
So when you got a big game like the one this weekend with a couple teams that aren't particularly sympathetic, doing a little daily fantasy to keep it interesting, spice it up. That's something that I'm going to be doing because... What other option do you have? Who do you have to root for?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
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The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
There's some ways in which he's just so sui generis, but I was thinking about Hungary and about like his ownership of X Twitter. Right. And like how, in addition to being a government contractor, right. In addition to a donor, he also is the owner of a major, uh, media platform.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
And you see this to a much lesser degree, obviously, with the way that Zuckerberg and Bezos have started to coddle up to Trump. You see it to a little bit greater degree from the LA Times owner and the way he is. Talk about that parallel with Musk and what we've seen about co-opting media institutions. Then we can get into the view of all this from Europe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
So it was a... I think, yeah, also some immigrant stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
It was actually a big initiative during the Bush administration, getting faith-based organizations involved in government. Conservatives just before that, Christian conservatives were for that for a while.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Let's talk about the USAID and then I'll get to the Europe stuff because, again, this is another thing that's illegal. I worry that the phrase illegal is – people are going to start – will no longer have the impact with people because they just will hear this word like another illegal action by the Trump administration. It loses its –
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
emphasis because it's like, I saw somebody post something yesterday that was like, I don't think that the founders anticipated a system where one rich guy comes in and does a bunch of illegal stuff. And then the president just says, shut up a nerd when you complain about it. And that's like, kind of like the situation we're in, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Like they just, when there's a firehouse of illegal stuff, then it's like hard to focus on which illegal action is something worth protesting. I think With regards to USAID being shuttered and moved under state, I guess, we had a few things. The Russian government celebrating the closure of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Peter Morocco has been placed as the deputy administrator of USAID, I guess, in charge of it under Marco. He was inside the Capitol with rioters on January 6th. then we discussed yesterday a lot to this new undersecretary and secretary of state that will have some influence here, Darren Beatty. There was a new CNN article out this morning showing him praising the violence on January 6th.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I discussed his racist past on yesterday's podcast. I talk about that, and I guess this does also relate to sort of the view of us from Europe, but what the impact of all this is going to have.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Even the new Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, made that point, very point in 2017, defending this against the first round of Trump attacks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Freedom, like all the small liberal values.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
And just even at just a more practical level, like outside of kind of using the democracy world speak, you know, Mark Salter, who is McCain's speechwriter, always would talk about how when he'd travel around the world with him and then after he died and said that he was a speechwriter for McCain, worked for McCain, you'd hear from people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
that were dissidents, that were freedom fighters, that had fought autocracy in Eastern Europe, in Asia, other places, and they would have fond feelings. So there were pockets of people that had fond feelings of America and that soft power does matter. It mattered to them in their fight, but also it gave them a tangible thing to push back in internal politics. We shouldn't deal with the Chinese.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
We shouldn't deal with the Russians because we've seen how the outcomes are worse. So there's that tangible example of it. And then there is also Just the other side, just even looking at this from just the Trump perspective, it's like once you take away our values-based argument, then it's just like who can get theirs-based argument. And that's going to be a loser for us too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I mean, because the Chinese are going to be much more willing to give bags of cash than we are. They're going to be able to give a much better deal. If all this is is art of the deal all the way down, then that's going to be a loser for us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
This actually takes us back to the Europe article, right? That our values-based allies. So your article about the concerns from Europe about Musk. I had written down three things, right, that it relates to. That's probably more. But tariffs, like the EU is worried that maybe we'll get into economic war over them. Maybe a little less concerned today than yesterday. I'll I'll take the L on this one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Actually, I thought Trump was going to run through it. I still think he's going to have to eventually just for his little ego's sake. You know, you can't talk about how great tariffs are for years and then never do them. I wouldn't think. But who knows? Maybe that's why we don't have a Tim is always right T-shirt. But Europe has to be worried about the tariffs. Election interference.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Elon Musk, we've seen with AFD, but elsewhere, he's getting involved in elections. And then three, like the Internet company regulation issues. and how they have done more than we have here, and what Musk's involvement will mean for that. So take it any way you wish, but kind of like the view from what was once our values-based allies on what's happening over here with Musk and Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I Googled it myself. I was like, it was after the election, right? Yeah, it was in December. It was after the election. Yeah, it was in December.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
That's pretty minor. I would have maybe said just like banned the algorithmic element of this, right? Where Elon just can post and like people that follow him see it, but like where it's not being promoted into their feed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Yeah, a couple threads I want to pull there, but since you went the direction of the extra legality, there's a more niche story that I've been following that I want to raise with you because I think it just demonstrates the scope of just what is happening to the rule of law in this country as far as Elon Musk is concerned. The new D.C. attorney is a guy named Ed Martin, Eagle Ed Martin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
This time of year, a good hoodie is essential. Well, if you live north of New Orleans. It's still hoodie weather here a little bit, but the days are running short on hoodie weather. I love that. But for the rest of y'all suffering through long winters that go all the way through April, you need a good hoodie. You need something that's going to last that long, dark season.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
And the American Giant Classic Full Zip Hoodie is made to last not just for this winter, but a lifetime for many winters to come. Slate Magazine called it the greatest hoodie ever made. And if you don't trust Slate, as I mentioned before, my husband has been a longtime fan of his...
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
american giant hoodie so it was thrilled that we got american giant as a new sponsor so we could get a couple different styles and update the brand you know i i've never worn his hoodie sometimes i borrow his clothes one of the nice things about being gay is the shared wardrobe but i hadn't borrowed his hoodie before hadn't tried it on i've been pretty worn in he put a lot of work in on that american giant hoodie so when i got the new one i was interested to try it out i was interested to see you know if it lived up to the hype and i gotta tell you it did
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I got to tell you, it's very comfy, you know, lightweight, breathable. Put it on in the morning if you're a little hungover, feel nice and cozy. Highly recommend. The iconic classic full zip hoodie is the jacket that started it all for American Giant. Custom heavyweight fleece and side panels for mobility made it the best hoodie ever. It also had a body skimming fit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
with a double-lined hood and reinforced elbow patches that mean that hoodie will last. But they got a bunch of other kinds, different weights. They also have the premium Slub Crew tee. I got a long-sleeve tee from them. You might have seen me wearing out on the Bulwark tour. I'm digging it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
So this season, snag the hoodie that will bring you comfort for life, the American Giant Classic Full Zip, and save 20% off your first order at American-Giant.com when you use code BULWARK at checkout. That's 20% off your first order at American-Giant.com, code BULWARK. Did you have any other additional thoughts on the trade war bluff and impact?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
He was a Phyllis Schlafly acolyte. He has a partisan hack. He really has no... He does not have anywhere near the type of resume for such an important post as what should be a nonpolitical post. He put out a statement yesterday talking about investigating. And I think the statement comes across my my transom. And I was like, oh, man, there's there's a U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Here we go. We're giving you 12 Mounties in exchange for the tariffs they've taken away. It's an interesting deal. That's right. A little short of becoming the 51st state, you know, if we're grading deals.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
The base doesn't even care. That's why I was wrong on this one. I'll admit it. Well, maybe I won't be. We'll see what happens in a month. But like... The base doesn't care about this. Trump is the only one that cares about this. So does he just like the, maybe he just likes the theater of it, but I don't know. I mean, he seems to really like it. We'll find out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
But I assume that European countries, it does have real implications because if you're like looking to invest in, you know, some multinational corporation that's going to have a product that's moving over multiple borders, like why would you do it right now until you understood what's, what is actually going to happen?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
The scary sleeping nationalism of Canada. I don't think they'll be Canadian separatists, but, you know, I don't know, maybe they'll just start manufacturing more stuff in Canada instead of from us.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
On Tulsi, it seems like she's going to get confirmed. There was some – this one I was right on, so one for two. There was some chatter over the weekend that Tulsi was in trouble, that these normie Republican senators had very deep concerns and were going to stand up to the nomination. Well, in the last 24 hours, Susan Collins –
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
James Lankford of Oklahoma, who did the immigration deal with the Democrats last time. Todd Young of Indiana, who's kind of been buzzed about as maybe a secret normie. All of them said that they're voting for Tulsi. And so it seems like we're heading down a path towards her being confirmed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I don't know if that has any impact as well on our allies as far as intelligence sharing and gathering, but it does seem like another factor if you're one of them looking at how much you can trust us. Putting an Assad and Putin apologist in charge of intelligence isn't probably great.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
attorney that's investigating what Elon Musk is doing. That's great. I'm glad someone's doing that. And then I had to give it a second look. And I was like, no, Ed Martin is going to be opening investigation or says he is at least this might just be a PR stunt into the people that are blocking Elon Musk.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Even having that conversation is not great. They're having meetings about it now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
And then just the latest on Ukraine. There was an article yesterday. I didn't get a lot of attention because there's a lot happening. But Trump, I guess, considering a deal on U.S. access to Ukrainian rare earth metals in exchange for additional aid. His idea had been floated by Zelensky in October. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I guess being open to aid, even as part of some cockamamie deal, is probably better than nothing. But I'm wondering what your sense is of that and what the view is from folks in Kyiv.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Yeah. Yeah, that's how I'm answering it, too. Things are doing great inside this home. Once we get outside the home, it gets dicier and dicier. Your most recent piece for The Atlantic is called Europe's Elon Musk Problem. If you'd indulge my Yankee myopia, I'd like to begin by discussing America's Elon Musk problem, and then we can back into the Europe side of things.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
from getting access to these types of, you know, either the treasury documents or at USAID, things that are classified, you know, with some of these efforts that are unclassified. In addition to that, there was a tweet by CaptiveDreamer7, which is like an anonymous MAGA account with a MAGA hat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
We need to share more inspiring Ukrainian stories here. That's good. I'm happy that you shared that as needed. All right, final question was recommended from a friend. We're now... what, three weeks in? It's been the longest three weeks of our life. Is it only two weeks? I think it's only two weeks. It's been the longest three weeks of our life and it's only been two weeks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
How does it meet expectations as far as the authoritarian threat or tyrannical threat for you? Is it as bad, worse? How far down the trail to urbanism do you feel like we are? Have we already shot past it? How would you rank it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I mean, you wrote a book called Gulag. So, you know, so we're not we're not all the way. We're not we're not all the way to Gulag.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
He tweeted at Ed Martin saying that Martin should investigate Twitter user Will Stansel for criticizing Elon Musk. Martin replied, thank you, noted.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
All right. Well, we've all got some work to do. Thank you so much, Anne, for yours. I appreciate you for coming on the podcast again. And as often as you're willing, we'll be having you back. So thanks so much.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow. Maybe somebody that can be a little bit of fun. We get to have fun every once in a while, right? Maybe we can have a fun guest tomorrow. We'll see what you think. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Not only is Elon acting with impunity and outside of the law, right now we have the prominent new appointee who is in charge with upholding the law, not only not looking into Elon's actions, but claiming that he's going to be looking into anyone that even speaks ill of Elon or does anything to block what the Doge team is doing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
The Borg Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Yeah, he said that it was illegal. I forget if he replied to Wired himself or to someone else that was treating their names and saying, this is illegal. And again, if this was just... some, you know, Iron Man trillionaire, like running SpaceX outside the government popping off on Twitter about how people criticizing him are breaking the law. I mean, there's plenty of precedent for that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
But given the type of access that he has had, and the fact that that's now apparently there are US attorneys, at least one US attorney willing to do his bidding, these types of threats against journalists that are reporting about the people that are
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
working inside the government in very prominent roles and against the government officials that you mentioned that are trying to just follow the law and follow their duty by making sure that protocols are followed. That's alarming.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Because there's a New York Times story out this morning inside Musk's aggressive incursion into the federal government. They write, there's no precedent for a government official to have Mr. Musk's scale of conflicts of interest, which includes domestic holdings and foreign connections.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Let's talk about that, the folks that are at some level... I hate to use the word resist, but just resisting the extralegal demands of Musk and others. What are some of your thoughts and parallels on that front? I mean, and you have obviously done reporting and talked to people in Eastern Europe, other places where this sort of bullying and kleptocracy is commonplace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
My colleague JVL wrote, I think, end of last week about how folks should be staying in their jobs. I understand the opposite view. impulse right of wanting to get out of the line of fire i understand the impulse of wanting to be a whistleblower like what what are tactics that you think are sensible facing a threat such as this
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
And there's no precedent for someone who is not a full-time employee to have such ability to reshape the federal workforce. One agency official said before Congress and the courts can respond, Elon Musk will have rolled up the whole government. I'm curious your thoughts on that and parallels to what we've seen elsewhere.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I've been following this. Just one little note on this. The acting FBI director... There's this kind of this top layer. I talked to Andrew Weissman about this on Friday of people that were essentially dismissed over the weekend of people that were involved in investigations against Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
But then the follow-up request was to either remove or freeze, I forget the exact phrasing, a much broader swath of FBI agents that had been involved at any level in the Trump investigations. And the acting FBI director basically said no, like sent out a memo to everybody about what their rights are and staying in the job. But okay, well, Kash Patel is about to be confirmed any day, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
So like what that looks like in a couple of days, I don't know. But like we have seen some of that already in the case of this acting FBI director.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Unfortunately, we have to bring back an expert on autocracy because that is our world right now. She's a staff writer at The Atlantic. Her books include Autocracy, Inc., The Dictators Who Want to Run the World, Twilight of Democracy, and the Pulitzer Prize-winning Gulaga History. It's Anne Applebaum. How are you doing, Anne?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
I just had someone forward me from a state university system an email that went out that said justice was also a word that was being taken down from the website. And that's pretty ominous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
And it may be arbitrary and capricious, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Yeah, maybe you aren't even fired. Maybe you just have to be bullied by a 19-year-old until you can't bear it anymore. There's one example of this I want to read from Josh Marshall. He wrote on the question of doxing, you're mentioning this, how Musk was going after the Wired and others for mentioning the names of the young technocrats, not technocrats, what does Marshall calls them?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
Gizmocrats, the young Musk acolytes that are now running roughshod over the government. And he writes, I was talking to staffers today, detailing one situation where one of the most people is rewriting the code base of one of the U S government's most mission critical computer systems.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
As it was described to me, the staff programmers who used to manage the code and system are sort of helping him because they're terrified. He's going to go haywire, but also begging him to be careful. Meanwhile, they only know this guy is Fred.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Outside the Rule of Law
So you have this crazy situation in addition to all the other absurdity of them trying to help or beg Fred to be careful, but they don't even know who Fred actually is. It might be a different name. So that's what's happening right now in the federal government.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
So I think going after that and I guess going after the Republicans for being phony. It does create a pickle here on this whole thing. Right. It's just like the whole thing is ridiculous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I mean, that you have Tom Tillis, you have corporate Republicans out there being like, boy, I really love this guy that sued companies on behalf of environmentalists, sued pharmaceutical companies on behalf of anti-vax kooks. So maybe going after them instead of going after. RFK and trying to wedge is a better strategy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Because I hear you, like defending the status quo is not really a winner for Democrats. You saw Polis try to navigate this a little bit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
There were no survivors. The collision was between a passenger jet coming in from Wichita and an Army helicopter. As we're coming on here, I believe still happening in the Brady briefing room is Donald Trump and J.D. Vance talking about this, the I want to play one clip from the president talking about what he thinks was the reason that this crash happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
It is a couple other thoughts are coming to me as you say that, like on the one hand, I do think vaccinations are just broadly, generally popular. I know that, you know, maybe just focusing on the reemergence of the whooping cough is something that is, that is useful. I do wonder though, like, is there a way just to sort of reframe this whole thing back to, back to him being a Kennedy? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
These guys like Trump and Kennedy, they're pretending that they're going after the status quo, but they're not really. They're taking cash for themselves. They've now aligned themselves with the richest men in the world. I don't know. I'm just spitballing live here. But I do think maybe that's a more fruitful line than, I guess, going after him for being a kook. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
It has to be somewhat appealing to you, though, when you think about the incoming administration, that you do have a far-left polygamist environmentalist, right? And you have somebody representing Aloha in Hawaii. It's kind of a woke cabinet. It is. Spirit of Aloha. Let's talk about Tulsi for a second.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Some of the reporting people in The Hill say that they're concerned about Tulsi, but Tulsi had Tom Cotton doing the intro for her. I mean, if there was ever going to be somebody that was going to be opposed to her, it'd be that. She's totally flipped on all of the things like FISA that the national security Republicans don't like. So, I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I'm wondering what you think about the Tulsi nomination.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
You're not a daily listener of the pod. I take it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah, and then she spun for him, right? That's the other thing, right? Again, it's like, because that's the quick response you hear from her defenders, right? It's like, well, we should have open dialogue. It's like, okay, well, I mean, we can, I don't know. I'm probably less keen on open dialogue than you and Tulsi, but okay, that's fine. That's one thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But then it's like, you have the dialogue and then you come back and you are a propaganda tool for Assad, right? And that is the thing. And then our own intelligence services at the time, this is a story I was reading yesterday, right? said that they caught chatter of Hezbollah terrorists they were monitoring that were talking about how Tulsi was meeting with the big guy. So Joe Biden, I assume.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah, Joe Biden. Joe Biden, 10 for the big guy. It's always a question, who is the big guy out there? Who is the big guy? So many big guys. To me, it is just – it's absurd to think that – that national security Republicans would go along with this, but at this point, we've learned that they don't actually care about anything besides suckling up to Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But I guess as somebody that has actually had security briefings and been you know, kind of involved in these conversations where you're getting intelligence and trying to translate it and figure out, you know, how to use it, what to do with it. Like, what would be the legitimate concerns that people would have about somebody like Tulsi managing that process?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Well, I mean, she's probably the most in line with Donald Trump out of all the nominees as far as like processing intelligence. And what you like turning out something that you like. I mean, Tulsi like got tricked by gateway pundit. Right. And that's kind of what Trump's looking for.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I think in somebody that is going to take the craziest shit that advances his narrative that is out there in the ether and like presents that as the main narrative. And yeah, you know, blocks out or pushes out things that are contrary. Right. I mean, that's what her skillset is, I think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I guess I'm going to sound like a cliche, never Trump cuck, but it is noteworthy in these hearings I've had to suffer through. All of the controversial shit that is out there in MAGA world that we say are conspiracies and that they're like, no, I don't know. There's really something here. We're just asking questions about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Across the board on all of that stuff, these guys are flipping, right? I mean, Tulsi is flipping her view on Snowden and on the corruption within the intelligence community. RFK is flipping his view on vaccines. We're going to get to Cash next. He's flipped on the January 6th cop beaters. That trend, you would think, would be noticed at some point. The QAnon cash flipped on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
On all of these things, a generic MSNBC watching wine mom, who we love, who has no experience on anything, would have been more correct than the people that are now nominated to run these agencies who have now flipped their views to match the view of the generic MSNBC wine mom. I do think that's a noteworthy trend.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I guess it's black people and the people with mental health problems that caused this. He went on to say that Pete Buttigieg was a disaster who's just got a good line of bullshit. And he followed up that by saying, now we mourn and we pray. So thoughts on the president's reaction to this tragedy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Speaking of credulous, I'm just getting fucking pister and pister as we go on here today, Tommy. I'm going to have a fucking heart attack before the end of this administration. I'm just thinking back. I am still mad about the... about Trump and Vance. I'm just like, the more we talk about it, this was happening live. So I'm processing it live.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And the poor family members of these victims of this plane crash, like have to watch the president rant about DEI. Yeah. I mean, that's just the whole thing. It's pissing me off.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
All right, credulous. You talked about how credulous Tom Cotton was. He's got nothing on Jimmy Lankford and Tom Tillis. Here's James Lankford today. There's a social media, national media persona of who Cash is. And then there's who he actually is. There's this cartoon of him that's out there, that he's mean, hateful, intense.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And then when you meet him, you think, where is that person that's being described? Yeah. I don't know, James, have you ever watched a show about a bad guy? I don't know. Tony Soprano can be pretty charming in a 20-minute meeting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
You can be a person that is advanced, hateful, intense, and mean material and conspiratorial material and then also be able to pull it together for 20 minutes to suck up to a senator.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah. Oh, yeah. He was a competitor of yours. He didn't see him on the charts. But he had a podcast on the Epoch Times. It was Cash's Corner. I've had to suffer through it a few times. He doesn't even deny any of the things that people say he said. It's just like, well, I guess that's just part of the kayfabe. It's like WWE. It's like Rowdy Roddy Piper getting on the mic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
It's like, that's not the real Rowdy Roddy. He's just saying what he said about Jake the Snake Roberts because that's part of the show. I guess that's their argument.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I just want to say, just for the record, in case there are lawyers listening, that that story that Tommy shared was shared by Tommy. That is alleged. And his former secretary of defense, Mark Esper, also shared it. But Cash is currently suing Olivia Troy, my friend, for relaying that same story on MSNBC.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
So I just want to say that if there are any lawsuits pending, that was Tommy Vitor that said that. And I'm open to any facts that might emerge.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
It's great. You're a fair questioner. I've watched some of your interviews. Speaking of cash lying, I've got a clip here from today's hearing that I would like to play.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
This is like when my mother came and was like, was there a glass bong in your room? I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, what? Was there marijuana at the party? Glass bong. I'm like, ooh, that doesn't ring a bell. And she's like, this glass bong? It's like, what? What, eight times he's been on the podcast? A guy named Arjun Modi, who's a GOP Senate staffer, came to Cash's defense on this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I tweeted about this exchange and he came to Cash's defense. He writes this, in context, Cash did over 1,000 media interviews submitted to the committee. I don't remember what I had for lunch yesterday. Okay. What do you think about that, Tommy? Do you think there's anybody who's done eight podcast interviews with you who couldn't recognize your name? I am forgettable.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
You are just a white guy named Tom.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
taken you don't feel like that was a meritocracy they're having two reality show stars and one weekend host being the like point people for responding to this you don't think that reflect and they are all white males so i mean they had to overcome the obstacles of the dei to get to the jobs they did they succeeded somehow in spite of all the obstacles in front of them so that was one bucket of frustration and then i just started to think about like
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah, I might revisit it, I guess. I don't know. I'm feeling like the Joker. But in the afternoon session of this, I might just kind of revisit cash. I'm sorry. I know this might seem silly, but I've got to go back to the Stu Peters thing. Does it ring a bell now that you've been reminded you did eight podcast interviews?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I've been torn on this because I've also been giving the Democratic senators shit. I had Mark Kelly on this pod last week, and I was like, why don't you guys coordinate better? He didn't have a good answer to that, really. I thought his questions were good, but some of the others weren't. That was with regards to the Hegseth hearing. But I don't know, man.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
If the Republicans are going to vote for this guy anyway— Are we sure that giving a speech that goes on YouTube or TikTok isn't a better use of time than asking him questions he's going to lie about? That's a genuine question. I'm kind of going back and forth on what is useful. If you thought that you could stop it, then I think strategy is important.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But if we're just accepting that the Republicans are totally shameless and are going to vote in these unqualified people, then maybe the strategy mindset changes a little bit. I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
You also just know your skills. Yeah, Peter Walsh is a nice person. He's fine. But maybe give your time over to somebody that knows what they're doing. Yeah. Amy Klobuchar was pretty good.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
You know, it'd be like if the bulwark had a like weightlifting competition against crooked media, you know, I'd be like, I don't probably don't put me in on that one, you know, like put me in, put me in on one of the other events where I know that where I, where I can add some value. Is JVL your ringer? Joe Perticoan, I think. Losing Caputo is pretty big on that, unfortunately.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I've been over to crooked headquarters. I don't think the competition's going to be very stiff on the weightlifting. Oh, I had one more thing on cash. I think Tom Tillis might be my least favorite senator now, Tommy. The thing I want the most in the world, which means it won't happen, is I want the porn store pizza man to challenge him in a primary and beat him. I want it really badly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Tillis passed out a cash, K, money sign, H, bingo card game today. That, you know, check the square if a Democrat says subjects such as deep state or enemies list or QAnon. And it's just like... The problem with him is, you know, some of these guys, Marjorie Taylor Greene doesn't pretend to be serious. So give me Marjorie Taylor Greene over this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Tom Tillis is like condescending lectures about how the Democrats are the ones that are asking unfair questions, you know, amidst a hearing where like you have legitimate questions about an incoming FBI director that was producing the January 6th choir. Yeah. To act like that is some preposterous thing for the Democrats to bring up that you should just mock with your silly bingo card game.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Fuck you, Tom Tillis. What is this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And he talked about it a lot. Yeah. On several of those 1000 podcasts.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Be your own man. I will say it was interesting. Much more on Cash tomorrow. We got Andrew Weissman on. But just one other thing that was interesting from today. He didn't elide the question about the pardons for the cop beaters. He specifically said he disagreed with that. I did not see that. Interesting. Yeah, I found that interesting. I mean, it's fake.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Probably have to say it, yeah, for the building. Yeah, and I'm sure he cuts the deal behind the scenes. He calls Don Jr. or whatever and is like, just, you know, tell daddy. Maybe he calls Shadow President Elon Musk. I don't know. Maybe he calls Donald directly. But it's just like, hey, I'm just going to, you got to give me one here so that we can get through.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah, who's the fourth senator that would have cared about that? That's a good question. I don't know. Not Tom Tillis. I wanted your take also on there's just been this kind of clown OMB. We're freezing and then we're rescissioning the freeze and then we're refreezing and then we're unfreezing. And a lot of the stuff, the details are going to bleed out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But the one area where they do seem to be pretty serious about freezing is grants and funds is in foreign aid. And they brought up the fake story about the Gaza condoms as one of the things that they're going to freeze. That's not true, actually. The condoms are going to Africa as part of the anti-AIDS program, as part of PEPFAR, which was a Republican program initially.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But they're going to cut that, cut all USAID. So I'm just kind of curious, given your experience in that world, what you think the potential ramifications of this are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
They didn't freeze. Just to be clear, they did not freeze the aid to Israel or Egypt. Which is for Israel. So, heck of a job to the Egypt bag men and to our friends who protested the genocide, Joe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
There's also the soft power. I knew you were kind of forgetting at this in the Jordan example, but like the soft power element to this, particularly in the context of China, like the thing to me that's like the most incoherent about this is you've got some elements that,
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
of the Trump administration and Trump world that are very, you know, saber-rattling about China and China hawks and the threats from China and this great power struggle that we're in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And part of that is the fact that China has been buying influence with a lot of countries throughout the world, particularly some in our hemisphere now, you know, doing programs such as the one you described in Jordan, right? And so if we kind of get off the playing field there, You already saw this little dust up with Colombia.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
If you're Petro, why aren't you like, well, I guess I'll just deal with China. I'll do trade with China. They might feel like a more reliable ally right now. To me, it just undermines the whole China hawk element of what they're arguing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
You're saying you can't trust the CCP? That's not Sinophobic? Now that you're on the Bulwark podcast, you can say it without any accusations of Sinophobia?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
When you talk to folks in like advocacy world, and is there anything in particular that they're the most alarmed about, I guess, in the first week and a half, particularly kind of what the Pod Save the World had on?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I mean, not really. And it's how communications is for Trump, I guess. Not for Biden. Yeah. Well, that's another challenge.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
to americans like something that could boomerang back on us pretty quickly i want to do a little um a little politics and then every time you're on i like to give you a world leader quiz looking close with that but uh i was talking with chris hayes on tuesday and he's got the new book about the attention economy and how like trump has successfully leveraged this and this is i guess kind of related to our first topic in the darkest sense of how trump has leveraged this uh
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Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
leverage, so to speak, this tragedy outside of Reagan Airport. But, you know, one of the things we're talking about where the Democrats just are struggling with this, and in part because they have to kind of go through this deprogramming from what was a smart politician behavior to 15 years ago versus what is smart politician behavior now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And I played him a clip of Gretchen Whitmer and I hate to pick on Gretchen Whitmer because I think this is across the board, something that all Democrats are doing, but I just want, I just want to use it as an example because she is type of person that might be up in 2028 and because it is just spot on what, um, what we're talking about here. So let's listen to Gretchen Whitmer on CBS. Yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
All right, Tommy, I want you to pretend we're at a DNC media training session. We just played that clip and you're talking to the candidates. What kind of feedback do you have for Big Grudge?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah, maybe there's political value. I don't know. But just from a human standpoint, it's just so atrocious. Oh, for sure. There are people that... Many people that lost loved ones, and I saw an interview last night with a local news, you know, a guy waiting for his wife, hoping that she survived. Obviously, she didn't survive.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah, I've got some feedback for you in your Jesse Waters interview. I want to stick with Whitmer here first, or not Whitmer, just with the Democratic Challenge broadly. Because like, So you said, right, that they don't need us, they don't want us. Republicans kind of do need Democrats, actually, to get stuff done. And we'll see what they can do.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I think that they're going to be in a big challenge on the Hill to get things passed. Republican study committee put out a statement the other day. That's I think 180 house members that were like, we're only going to vote for a reconciliation bill if it cuts the deficit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And if you go back and listen to the Liam Donovan article interview, I did a couple of weeks ago, like you can hear how that's impossible. Right. So, you know, they're going to come to the Democrats for bailouts on budget stuff. So get something to get to the 60 votes on the Lake and Riley thing. Maybe that was the right strategic thing to do, but maybe not.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Or like, are people really going to be voting on the Lake and Riley Act in 2026? We're 20 months away from another election. I don't know, actually. I mean, is saying that we're going to collaborate with the Trump administration really... getting you anything?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Has anybody done well? in the last week and a half. Again, it would be one thing to be complaining about this in December, but he had an inauguration. We've had all these hearings. We had this press conference today. There have been plenty of opportunities to go say interesting things, to go to different types of places. Is there anybody that you think is really nailing it?
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Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
That link will be in your inbox, or you can go to bulwark.com slash subscribe if you're not a member yet. I don't know why that would be. And of course, I'll be back tomorrow for a recap. But for today, we've got the co-founder of Crooked Media, co-host of something called Pod Save America. He also has another podcast I like called Pod Save the World.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I assume that there were people there who have, who are, you know, not white, who are minorities, who, you know, have mental health issues in their family. Like, do they really want to see the president alive? the next day, talking about his speculation that maybe it was a black lady that was in the cockpit. I just don't, I don't get that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah. So, you know. I just go to like, look, this is the thing in 2016. I used to make fun of it. So I'm the person I used to make fun of now. So I'll admit it. But in 2016, when I was working for Jeb, like we would mock, like the defense of Trump
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
among, you know, the Winnie the Pooh in the tuxedo defense of Trump back then in 2015 was like, but he fights, you know, he might be, he might have some, he might have some issues in his personal life. Like we want somebody that fights these evil Obama bros. Right. And that didn't resonate with me then because, you know,
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I think you made some mistakes, but I didn't really feel deep in my core that you needed to be fought by the stupidest American. So that obviously is why I'm disconnected from my former party. But now I feel that. You could sell me on that. Like a butt she fights or a butt he fights. Somebody that I don't agree with on every issue. I want to fight her too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
That I know is going to go there and go to the mat against this... farcical shit this sham that we have to that we've been subjected to for the last week and a half and it's like nobody's really give me that i know you see a little bit uh you know you mentioned about ryan chris murphy a little bit but But no guttural, nothing from the gut.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I've been saying the word sham too much. So people, I gotta, I gotta get out my, I gotta get out my thesaurus or farce. I mean, I've been saying too much sham too. I don't know. We'll see. There's, there's a lot of bad stuff. Speaking of farces, you went on water's world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
As you mentioned earlier, if we're going to make fun of the other Democrats and give them some feedback, I've got some feedback for you. So I want to listen to a clip of you on water's world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
The libertarian moment is back. I was just happy to hear it. I'd never heard you say you're a libertarian before. I was like, man, we've got more in common than I thought. I wasn't expecting that question. I might have used it as an opportunity to go after Jesse to be like, yeah, Jesse, you know, I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I think that there are two genders, but like sometimes people, you know, process like their alignment with each gender differently. You see this in sex as well. You know, like there are men with two balls. They're men with one ball. They're men who gave both of their balls over to Donald Trump. Wow. Okay. You know, like you, like that'd be one thing to do.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Like there are only a couple of ways to do a marriage, right? You can have a closed marriage, you can have an open marriage, or you can have a closed marriage where you cheat on your wife with a woman that works for you and you're a sex pest at the office. Like that might've been another thing to consider. I'm just spitballing here. Different options.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Dominion. All right. I think you should keep going on there. Is there anything else you want to do? Just generally speaking, like bro pods, crypto. What do you think could be a useful use of your time now? Using the Jesse Waters appearance as kind of like a training room.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Well, listen, you found one. Fish on. In seriousness, though, what is actually useful? No, I'm serious. Sometimes it's not actually useful. Like me yelling at Clay Travis, I find kind of satisfying. But am I convincing it? You know what I mean? Is that useful? I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
No, obviously it's atrocious. I just, I guess what is the point? He's also not running again, I guess. You know what I mean? So it's like, what is even the political point, right? Like this is, this is the one sort of element of all of this. Like you would think that, you know, he also had a written statement. It was classic Trump that's talking about uniting the country.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I agree with that. And I just, and particularly the non, well, this is, I guess what I'm trying to think of. I think it's more challenging, but I think it'd be valuable for you and all your fellow, probably not love it, but Fabro and other fellow bros, Pat Ryan's to go on non non,
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
political conservative coded shows totally right like because i think that there's limited maybe minor value in me yelling at clay travis i think there'd be very real value and go again going on the barstools the theobonds or some of this other kind of stuff the aiden roth right like the streamers doing some of that i think would be it'll be useful i do it is all kind of tied up in crypto Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Do you own any crypto? I own like a little tiny bit. I wish I owned a lot more. Do you have any regrets over that? Because I've been thinking about this lately. Yeah. I'm so fucking pissed about the Trump coin thing and how this whole thing is just like such an obvious fraud. And like how so many of these coins are such an obvious fraud and like how these rug pulls are going to screw people over.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And it's been making me mad, but I've been doing some self-examination and I'm wondering if part of my anger is related to the fact that I've left so much money on the table. So I'm wondering what you think about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Leave it to the libs. More speech codes for I can't say bro. I've got to say latinx. Whatever, Tommy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Like, we don't even really know what happened. Like, I saw this kind of right-wing pilot of somebody that had been a pilot of a Black Hawk helicopter that was the helicopter that crashed into the passenger plane. And, you know, dude gave a very detailed list of all the things that could go wrong and how it's more challenging than you think and how there's a watch person, there's two, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
It is tough, right? That's my problem with the whole Roe talking point on all this, right? It's like, okay, I've got to be more open-minded towards the Ponzi scheme that's getting the worst people in the world rich, I guess. All right. Sure. That's good advice. It's just about how you talk to people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Final area before I get you on the where in the world is Carmen San Diego pop quiz. I am curious about, you know, you're monitoring the world. We're looking for positives out there. Not a lot of positives happening domestically. Do you have a favorite world leader? Like, I wish I could like Malay, you know, he'd be right in my actual libertarian bones, but he wasn't such a suck up to Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And so I'm like, you know, I'm looking, give me a, give me a lib, give me a good lib around the world that I can, I can be excited about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
David Lammy? All right. Big New Yorker piece on him this week. I'll check out that New Yorker piece. I'm just looking for hope anywhere. All right. That takes us to the final topic. You know that George W. Bush was embarrassed when he was asked... to name random foreign leaders. And all the Libs were so excited to make fun of him for not knowing that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
And since you have a podcast about the world, I'd like to ask you about that. I've got some friends who are traveling through Asia here this winter. And so I'd like for you to tell us the prime minister of Japan or the president of Vietnam or the prime minister of Thailand, any of those three world leaders names. Can you get any of those? What did you say?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Thailand is... Japan, Thailand, and Vietnam. Thavison? Thavison is which one? Thailand. No? I don't know. The prime minister is Shinwarata.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
actually are you sure but uh maybe there's are there multiple i don't i don't know what the i don't know what the thai system is you know maybe it's a multi just i'm gonna cheat on this one you're googling no no i'm just gonna google thavison oh yeah no thavison's been gone since august 2024 okay to be fair to you thavison just went out august 2024 so that's pretty good we'll give you a half a point for that uh shin awatra is the new prime minister okay woman
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Like, we know nothing, you know? And so to pop off on that is pretty ridiculous. Like, it is Trump, but as you're saying about just kind of how things are right now, at some level, It reflects a little bit of a just kind of breakdown of our entire society that also is maybe Trump's fault.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
well and then yes oh sorry you're right that's a good point and then the the japanese have had like a bunch of leaders very recently ashiba is the current one that's correct sheba okay good what was the other country you asked about uh vietnam uh no fucking clue no clue about vietnam i can't i can't pronounce this person's name but uh it looks like uh since 21 another new one a lot of turnover over there uh general it's a general
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Uh-oh, watch out for Vietnam. Kong, Kwong, General Kwong. So there you go. One and a half points out of three, that's a C. I don't know. It's not great. Pakistan, Shabazz Sharif. I brushed up. It's a good podcast, though, Pod Save the World. I do listen to it on the plane, and I doze off to it, actually, usually. So I kind of have you and Ben Rhodes in my dreams oftentimes when I'm on flights.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
So I appreciate you. Thanks for coming back to the podcast. Do you have anything else you want to promote? Any other final thoughts for everybody?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
No Sunday scaries with Tommy Vitor. Guys, we're going to be back here tomorrow with Andrew Weissman. Look forward to seeing you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But, you know, I saw some other some of our YouTube competitors out there yesterday that were blaming it on the fact that the FAA administrator got fired already and we didn't have a replaced FAA administrator. And that's saying that it's Trump's fault. Democratic congressman woman Norma Torres said.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
said that the families deserve answers because Trump gutted an aviation safety committee, which I think that was really a TSA committee. But again, this happened on the other side.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I got into fights with Republicans back during the East Palestine train derailment, where they were like Rudy Giuliani and other people were out there talking about how Pete Buttigieg's paternity leave was to blame for this. So maybe Trump is just taking advantage of our broken society.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Maybe you aren't built for this. You're kind of a softie. Yeah, I don't know. I do have to tell you, my initial instinct to be like, fuck it, blame Trump. Fuck it. Why not blame Trump? I mean, you know, he blamed a Newsom for the fires and Pete, like caring for his kids in the NICU was blamed for like everything that happened all over the country for two years. So why not?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
He was a national security staff spokesman during the Obama administration. It's a man Ben Shapiro calls Tayron Tommy, Tommy Vitor. How are you doing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But, you know, I took a couple breaths and I was like, well, you know, we could probably just see what actually happened. We could probably just see what happened. And I don't think that like my tweet happened. or Norma Torres's tweet is really going to be the thing that takes Trump down here. So I think we can probably wait to see what actually happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Somebody that didn't wait to see what actually happened on various things, uh, is, uh, the nominee to be the secretary of health and human services, Bobby Kennedy. You, were you a big Bobby fan before the last huge, huge Bobby fan.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
bronzer adoption is kind of a administration wide thing now i gotta say despite the fact that he wants to maha i've seen the shirtless pictures on the golds and that does not look like a natural human body no that looks like trt yeah that looks like well i i don't know anything about trt that maybe maybe something you're into but or do i but i'm thinking about getting into it because he looks pretty shredded for being honest he looks shredded in some ways but he has parts of his body that are like malformed yeah the size of which is not natural
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
So that's not for me. I like guys with muscles, but I like them to actually look like male humans, not like male humanoid kind of avatar combos. You're a Schlossberg fan living in an RFK world. I am. I do like the noodle voice. I want to listen to some of RFK's testimony from yesterday. What should we do first? Let's fuck it. Let's do heroin first. Let's listen to RFK talking about heroin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Has he watched a movie about the opioid crisis or like read a magazine article about this? It's pretty kind of a pretty big deal lately, like how hard it is for people to get off of heroin. And it caused like a nationwide crisis and many thousands of deaths.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Me neither. I've got my own vices. Neither of these are them. But like, again, I've read the news, you know, and I've watched Dope Sick. Really good. Really good serial. Yeah, I read the book. Yeah, it's great. I haven't heard any stories of people that are like, you know, of course, getting off Lexapro, these sorts of things, I do think is not, I don't want to be like, oh, this is nothing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
It's easy. But like, there aren't any stories of people that are so jonesing for their Lexapro that they've turned to fentanyl. I haven't seen anything like that out there. Right. That's exactly right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Well, luckily, the Secretary of Health and Human Services doesn't need to know anything about this. There are some other things that he didn't show a ton of knowledge about. I want to play a couple of clips of him being asked about Medicaid.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Yeah, I don't know. I listened to his podcast for the first time in a while yesterday, and it is unlistenable. And the fact that he beats us in the ratings sometimes is me always, but you sometimes should really make you have to reflect on some things. How do you do a show without someone to talk to? I just, I don't get it. It's just a monologue. It's just monotone. What did Sarah call him?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
There aren't premiums and deductibles on Medicaid. How many people does he think is in the country if there are 30 million babies on Medicaid? One billion Americans. Matt Iglesias would be happy, but I don't think that's true. Were you impressed with his command of these very important healthcare policy matters that he's going to be in charge of?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We have a massive day today. The Kash Patel and Tulsi Gabbard hearings are happening as we speak, as is a press avail that Donald Trump and J.D. Vance are having about the tragic plane crash in Washington. So we'll get to some of that. For Bulwark Plus subscribers, we'll do a full wrap-up at the end of the day.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
What are your thoughts on what the Democrats are supposed to do with this kind of thing? I want to get into Cash and Tulsi in a little bit. That's happening right now as we speak. But about him and Bondi and Hegseth. You know, we get into nitpicking, right, like how they're handling the Q&A and, you know, could they have a better plan or, you know, could they coordinate better?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
They asked tougher questions. That's on the one hand. On the other hand, I'm like, this is all a farce. RFK is like during the hearing yesterday, pretended like he's for vaccines. Now he has no idea what he's talking about, about the major vaccine. programs that are going to be, you know, under his auspices. So like, what is a useful, a valuable use of Democrats time on a hearing such as this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
A castrated chipmunk? It's just like a castrated chipmunk giving you a 50-minute lecture in the same tone. It's an interesting podcast. Fun guy. You know, to each their own, right? You know, everybody, people like different things, different strokes for different folks. All right. As I mentioned, there was a just horrific midair collision last night outside of Reagan National DCA.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
I mean, I love going after trial lawyers, so that works for me. It is confusing to me that the Republicans are now the party of trial lawyers and they love passing legislation that lets people randomly sue. That's what underlines the don't say gay bill in Florida. You can sue the school if a teacher says something too gay. That's what underlines the bounty abortion bill in Texas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
You can sue a woman or the provider if they break the law. So there's a lot of new pathways for suing. I don't know if that's really going to land. I don't know. I'm torn. I think the Medicaid, why I wanted to play the Medicaid clips and the whole hearing was a fucking just farce and clown show. So we could have played many clips.
The Bulwark Podcast
Tommy Vietor: Deniability Is All That Matters
But to me, I think that the Medicaid ones are probably the best bet for Democrats. And I think that like this is a program that serves poor people and it serves a lot of Poor working class whites and red states who are for Donald Trump and Trump has been pretty deft at kind of claiming that he's not actually coming after the services that they like.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Head on over to their website, unboundmarino.com, where new customers can use our code THEBULLWORK for 10% off their order. on the TPUSA thing, my remit in attending and observing those things is to actually talk to the attendees, right? It's not like the porn of, let's give these people the attention that they want, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And like, let them dunk on me so that they get more money for their YouTube, you know, so they can be like, oh, I attacked an Ever Trumper. I don't like to get involved in that kind of stuff. But I do think that engaging with the people that are consuming their, which you're right, their lies, just to be blunt about it, is something that is, I think, required. Some people have to do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Not everybody's got to do it. But I think that it's important to engage with those folks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Yeah, let's talk about that. So the number one person, maybe not number one anymore, but aspiring to be number one person they're consuming is Elon Musk, who now is running not the Fox News, but online, a very influential digital media channel that includes a lot of right-wing propaganda that he propagates to his millions of followers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
He is also, I guess, the deputy president or co-president or shadow president and potentially the Speaker of the House coming in. So we have over on the Hill... There was this continuing resolution, as we referenced earlier, which is going to fund the government for three more months.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Among the things that it was going to fund was assistance for rural America, for farm workers who are struggling because of some of the natural disasters because of interest rates. It was going to include a disaster relief for people directly suffering from the natural disasters and just, you know. paying federal government employees at Christmas, among other things. So Elon scuttles this himself.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And I'm interested in your take on what's happening. And then I want to get into your expertise of 19th century American history and talk about the parallels of what we've seen before when these kinds of oligarchs get their hands on the kitty.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Thank you. They have agency. I broke my own rule. Republicans have agency. They scuttled it because Elon told them to. Thank you. That's a good correction.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And it was taken over quite easily by him, you know, because what he did was he, he just revealed the truth of what is happening in Washington. And here's like the thing that the Republicans are able to get away with.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Yeah, it's actually in some ways an important lesson for our politics right now. I think that a lot of times that the Democrats are talking to people in just their silo and not kind of aware of what's happening in other silos, maybe more lowbrow than the American history silo. But, you know, there are other silos out there that it's important to reach.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And I think that the Democrats need to take this lesson very seriously going forward is that Washington has been run for quite a while by a secret Congress, essentially, like you're saying this was done in secret. It was run by the, a secret majority of adults, right? Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Which was most of the entire Democratic Party, basically, along with a handful of Republicans and Republican leadership that would work with them to do these CRs and to keep the basic functions running because they didn't want to deal with this crisis that they're dealing with now. And they did so and hopefully didn't get that much attention. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Especially when Steve Bannon was in jail, it got less attention for four months. So things moved a lot more slowly. Right. But those Republicans who are willing to be responsible only in secret are Now, we get to, you know, see the truth, right? Now, the curtain has been brought back by Elon Musk and by Trump, you know, with their huge megaphones.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And they're out there and they're saying, no, Elon in particular, no, we shouldn't do this. We shouldn't fund this. And now these Republicans are like, oh, wait, I can't go along with this. I'm going to get kicked out. You know, I'm going to have the same fate as Adam Kinzinger and Liz Cheney. Right. I'm going to be pushed out by these guys. And so I can't go along with this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And so now you see that really it was the Democrats that were the only governing party, whether you have criticisms about the way they governed, like they were the only ones that were doing the responsible elements of governing, you know, compromise, you know. giving a little bit to get a little bit, right? The types of things you have to do in a legislative system.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And so where it goes from here, I think is the open question. I sent the, there was a press release by the Farm Bureau today that was like, farmers can't wait a month. They need this assistance now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And my response to that is kind of like, well, you probably should have thought about that before, you know, prioritize tampons and boys bathrooms over actual, having actual adults in charge of the government. So here's where we are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
The second impeachment, the key one.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
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The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
When you give an Aura frame as a gift, you can personalize it and preload it with a thoughtful message and photos using the Aura app, making it an ideal present for long-distance loved ones. It's a gift so special, they'll use it every day. I was in Sarah Longwell's office yesterday. I came into D.C. We did this debate with reason. We won the debate. We crushed them, actually, in the debate.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Me and Sarah did. There was a vote. They lost voters. We won every single undecided voter. It was a sweep. Just saying. I was at our office. We were doing a little prep. Not much prep. It was a pretty easy debate. Not much prep. We were doing a little prep. Talked about the bulwark. And I look over. I was like, boom, there's a picture of me. There's a picture of me inside the Aura digital frame.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
It looked wonderful next to her desk. You know, you see, think about this as a gift for a grandma to just send pictures of the kids. Nope. This was, you know, one of the kids preloaded it for Sarah. It had pictures of all of us, the Bulwark people, all of our live shows, all of you right there in her office. It was awesome. Great gift for Sarah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Save on the perfect gift by visiting AuraFrames.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames by using promo code BULLWORK at checkout. That's A-U-R-A-Frames.com, promo code BULLWORK. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. I'm curious to talk about the parallels, to go back to kind of McKinley.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Trump has dinner last night with Bezos and Musk. You mentioned how he said that all these people like me. He's really talking about a few people, Zuckerberg.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
benny off right that andretian like these big billionaires that have gone down to kiss the ring and who you know want to get their piece of the pie now from the next government musk it's tbd whether musk is financially motivated or whether he's motivated by like he just is getting high off this power and and you know wanting to be in control of everything all these other guys you know they want to get theirs out of this uh out of this coming government so i'm wondering the parallels between kind of that era that you've written about and
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
You know, particularly McKinley, who Trump has referenced several times.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Do you have any Grover Cleveland reading recommendations for me? I know there's a lot of the parallels between there now are pretty striking.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I couldn't be more delighted to welcome to the Bulwark the professor of history at Boston College, teaching 19th century American history. She also writes the newsletter Letters from an American on Substack with over 1.8 million subscribers. Her books include Democracy Awakening, Notes on the State of America.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I don't know. Do you have a late 19th century history class that I could take on the side when I'm not podcasting over the next six months? It feels quite relevant.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I can already tell you that the commenters on the sub stack are going to be like, I will sign up for the Carnegie Cleveland McKinley. We can do a little bit on the cowboy art on the side for fun. But I think that more apt to our moment is how we're going to deal with this situation. marriage of the big tech oligarchs and the aspiring anti-democratic Republican Party.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I have one final question for you. It's the toughest one I've got. Susan Collins is up in two years. Have you considered leaving Substack and running for Senate?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
This is your sacrifice. I'm asking you to sacrifice by sitting in these meetings with these awful people. I trust me. I'm not asking you to get all that's not going to be like, oh, candy and rainbows. I get to be a senator. I get a detail. No, it's going to be terrible. But you might you might be needed for the moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
That's fair. But the Democrats could use some people that say what they think, that have lobsterman husbands, that talk bluntly. This is a thing that I think the Democrats are missing a little bit. So anyway, well, prey on it. We have a week. You have a couple of months.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Thank you. Heather Cox Richardson. It was such a delight. Please come back. Her newsletter is Letters from an American on Substack, the book. I'm sorry. I had to go deep on Grover Cleveland, so we didn't even get to it. Democracy Awakening, Notes on the State of America. I assume that the shorthand there is the state of America is creaky.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I love that you mentioned that about your husband. And for our YouTube viewers, you can see it seems like you're in a cabin in rural Maine. And you also speak plainly. And I think people get confused about this, right? That it's like, no, you don't have to dumb things down for your people. But it is important to speak plainly, to not use unnecessary language that is jargon, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
All right. Everybody go check that out. Heather Cock Richardson, thank you so much. Have a wonderful Christmas and holiday season and hope to talk to you soon.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
All right. Tomorrow we got one more podcast before I go on a skiing vacation. So come back. He's a friend of the pod. You'll enjoy it. See you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
That doesn't relate to their lives. You know, you hear the James Carvilles of the world complain about the Democrats talking too much like college faculty lounges. You know, we have the CR that we're going to be talking about today. There are things and they're like, we're going to change the phrase out of school youth to opportunity youth. What is what is an opportunity?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Yeah, exactly. But it's that you buck that, you know what I mean? Like you take the audience seriously, and you write about serious weighty matters with leaning on history, but it's not, you know, some of the frou-frou stuff that I do think that sometimes people on the left get get wrapped around the axle about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Who is the fifth country in Five Eyes? I always am trying to remember. It's New Zealand. I believe it's New Zealand. I think it's New Zealand too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
It's Heather Cox Richardson. How are you doing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
So delightful. Obviously, given the fact that lots of people are reading your newsletter, many are familiar with you. But I kind of just wanted to start, for those who aren't, a little bit about your backstory. And then we'll get into the Elon of it all and what's our new... you know, kind of deputy shadow president. And we'll talk a little bit about that and historical parallels.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
That is such a great and important definition and distinction of terms. I'm glad that you made me be more precise there because sometimes it's good to choose interchangeably as shorthand, right? It's like the left is a stand-in for Democrats and other times not. And that's confusing sometimes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I literally did this yesterday where I was criticizing the left in the way you describe it, right, for some of their attacks on the Harris campaign. And I was speaking specifically about the group that are the, whatever you want to call it, the populist left, right? That does not really want to be in coalition with the Liz Cheney's of the world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And you see these folks on social media and they have a defined worldview that they want to redefine liberal democracy and not lumping that in with old fashioned liberals, right? Like people that like the rule of law, want to protect it, right? want to reform it in various ways to make sure it's more fair. That is a real distinction.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And I think that we're going to see that fissure a lot over the next four years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
But, you know, you, at least to me, I just emerged from the ether, right? It's like, hey, there's this professor that has a newsletter everybody reads. And I'm just curious, like how that kind of came to pass and what, you know, got you into all this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
And one of the challenges, I think you're uniquely suited to talk about this, because one of the challenges is elevating voices from that, the broad middle, right? Not maybe centrism, as some people might define it, but that broad middle that believes in those values you laid out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Because just the nature of the algorithms of these social media feeds, in addition to the Russian disinformation and the bot farms and the trolls that are paid to contaminate our discourse, right? But just the algorithms themselves, they reward things that are inflammatory, right? And so they reward people on the far left and they reward most of MAGA.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
I don't even want to call it the far right because it's not really kind of equivalent. It's like 10% of one side versus 40% of the other side. But they reward the most inflammatory rhetoric. And you've managed to kind of break through that without succumbing to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
Totally agree. Could not agree more, especially about going on to those other podcasts. It's something that I have on my to-do list for 2025. And I'm actually going to the Turning Point USA Festival as soon as I'm finished with you today. Because I think it's important to hear what they're actually saying, rather than just hear the snippets that you get on social media.
The Bulwark Podcast
Heather Cox Richardson: The Reality Show-ification of the Government
and understand their arguments at a deep level. It's important to do that if you're going to be able to rebut them in any way. And look, there are certain people that are just going to be down this rabbit hole and be red-pilled and be an occult, but there are other people that we can pull back from the brink, but we've got to understand what they're consuming.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
We do have some biochemist listeners. And I have one person in mind. I'm waiting for their comment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Yeah, I never thought about it like this, but this kind of seems obviously true to me. I think about it from the social level of just TikTok or Instagram, particularly if you're a young person and you're scrolling through and it's like you're hearing about other people's drama. You're seeing people that are very pretty, that are just making you maybe self-conscious or anxious, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But you're spending time. And sometimes you're laughing, and there's some positive, right? But you finish the scroll. You're like, oh, I'm sick of this. After you spend 20 minutes or 40 or however many you spent just moving your thumb. And then that ends. I don't feel like you need a biochemist to be like, yeah, it makes sense. They're like, what do I need now? Time away from people. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Time away from people, not time with people. But they didn't actually get anything out of it. I don't know. Sometimes I feel like I'm unempathetic. I'm such an extrovert and I love being and like this is so obviously true for me. I do. I'm open to feedback that that my priors do not match other people's life experience.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But the one thing I want to challenge you on that I just noticed when I was reading the article is there's a lot of conversation about teens and teen isolation. And I feel like it's weird, like in your world and kind of the social cultural analysis world, there are people that are like teens are overscheduled. Teens have too much stuff that they're doing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Like, you know, the high achieving teens parents are obsessed with getting them into Ivy League schools. And so they're doing too many extracurriculars and they're doing too much homework and they don't have enough time to be teens or kids. I don't understand how that social problem matches with the social problem of young people are spending too much time alone. Do you have any thoughts on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Yeah, you made a very good distinguishing point there. I took a clarifying point on my question about really talking about middle and upper income teen kids. You're talking about the
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
helicopter parenting issue right like the because you mentioned another issue in your article is that talking to low-income teens and looking to parents of low-income teens the studies are showing that like they see a problem of like not they don't have anywhere to go to socialize right that like that a lot of the rec centers and the stuff that you know propped up in the middle of the 20th century like some of that stuff's still there but it's hollowed out and there just aren't as many options
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
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The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
One of the things that they are thinking about and they're recommending to me and others is just ensuring that you got your house in order when it comes to what is happening online. And that is a smart idea for anybody, even if you're not in Kash Patel's book. There are data breaches happening all the time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
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The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
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The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com slash bulwark code bulwark. That takes us nicely into the politics. I do say, having had this conversation, I feel like we were remiss to not have my colleague JVL here as a just anti-social crank lover of his private time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
He does have a lot of kids, so maybe that solves the solitude problem. But I'm going to be sending him a homework assignment for the newsletter to give a to give the contrary, the non-extrovert view and all this. The practicing of politics alone, and some of this I do think is related to what we've seen from younger men in their engagement in politics online. You write about how
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
What this leads to, there's an obvious element, which is demonizing and alienating other people because you don't encounter them. So you don't understand the nuances of their views as much. It also maybe for a different class of people leads people to be out of touch with people of differing views because they don't encounter them. And you also say it kind of leads to a nihilism.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
So talk about how you're connecting the increased solitude to our political moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
I don't live in Denver.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Yeah, I looked at that Putnam book, Blowing Alone, and Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death. You go back and look at the years, and it's like, wait, Postman wrote Amusing Ourselves to Death in 1985? When there were only three networked news channels? Fox News didn't exist. Yeah, right. I mean, barely. Was Rush even on in 85? Just the whole thing is crazy. No Howard Stern yet, or very proto.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
I agree with that admonishment to some progressives. But like on the Trump part, and this type of figure could emerge on the left, who knows? The solitude obviously lends people to be more likely to be susceptible to demagogues, right? And to people that lie about and demean your people. you know, the people of the opposite tribe, right? I mean, people are always like humans are wired like this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
We are, we are tribal beings. So we are susceptible to this regardless, but you are particularly susceptible to something that you're already biologically susceptible to. If you are not doing anything to offset it in the real world, right? If you're one of these lonely men that you're talking about in particular, younger men, um, And you're not actually you're not going on dates, really.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
You're not communicating with people in the real world. Then when you have a figure like Donald Trump that comes up and says, well, your problem is all these whatever progressive elites in Los Angeles. So your problem is like the Haitians in Springfield. The problem is these fucking people that annoy you on the Internet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Like you're much more open to all of their critiques, no matter what their validity is, it seems.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Yeah, she had a great book.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But first, he's a staff writer at The Atlantic, author of the Work in Progress newsletter, host to one of my favorite pods, Plain English. You can go subscribe to that now. And he's got an upcoming book with Ezra Klein called Abundance. You can pre-order now. Maybe we'll have a three-way. That was unintentional when that book comes out, but you never know. It's Derek Thompson.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And then this, you know, in 2000, just like the dramatic change. You didn't feel it in 2000, I guess, right? Right. I don't know. At least I was what, in high school in 2000. And I did not like there wasn't this sense that this was a big problem. You know, I think living day to day lives for most people, but the trajectory was happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
If you're not involved in your community, then you don't know how this stuff gets hashed out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Uplifting stuff. We've got AI coming too, which is great. I don't have time to get to that right now. So people can imagine what they think the impact of AI is going to be on this solitude, the increasing trend towards solitude. I just want to do a quick rapid fire on a couple of your other articles, because there's some good stuff there. And this isn't really...
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Rapid isn't really right up your alley, Derek, but I'm trying to challenge you a little bit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
You wrote about the most important breakthroughs of 2024. You write this every year. It's one of my favorite articles. What was the most important breakthrough to you of 2024, scientific or otherwise?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And, you know, the observation not to undermine the value of your article, but it feels almost like mundane now. Like the interesting thing about your article is just like it's maybe even more dramatic than we realize, like living through it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
You wrote another article called How Trump Won Everywhere. This might be harder to be brisk with, but we'll try to be as brisk as we can. Michael Potoser is insightful guy that writes about, you know, trends, political trends and data. And he wrote something that I uncharacteristically disagreed with recently was that like his, you know, he thought that it was,
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
a lack of turnout among democratic groups that was the core reason why, why Harris lost. I mean, maybe I can have a longer conversation with him. I don't mean to like, you know, have him catch a stray on the pod here, but I, I more agree with a different view, which was yours, which was about how Trump won everywhere.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And it was, you know, these, this small movement towards him as a result of some of the post COVID environment. So why don't you try to sum up your case?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Yeah. And I'm going to talk more with Liz here up next about all of the factors for these fires in L.A. And there are many. So people just forgive us here. We're obviously going to gloss over some of this. But I do think that you can't look at what has happened in L.A.,
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
and not see it as another example where you have these kind of high-tax, big government places that felt unprepared for the challenges that they faced. Now, this is just this massive challenge, and there's a bunch of misinformation out there about the fire hydrants ran out of water. It's like, actually, there wasn't enough water in the fire hydrants for all these different fires at the same time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But that said, the mismanagement and the management failures are hard not to observe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And I'm not asking you to.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
All right, man. Yeah, that is so complex. I appreciate your thoughtfulness on it. It sounds like we'll be having you back again soon. You got a new book coming out up next, much more on the fires and what's happening in California with Liz Watt. Stick around. All right, guys. It's a new year. And this happens to me every new year where I'm like, I'm going to cook more. I'm starting to cook more.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Less takeout. We're coming up with a plan. We're coming up with an agenda. I do really good in January. I do pretty good in February. It starts to go downhill in March. But I'm committed to it this year. We're going to be doing cooking at home. And especially on these busy weekday nights when you got the kids basketball practice or music practice or I got a blab on MSNBC.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
It's important to get dinner done in a way that is super easy. And that's why I've turned to HelloFresh. HelloFresh's new ready-made meals go from the fridge to your fork in just three minutes. It's the same high-quality ingredients and restaurant-worthy flavor that you expect with just none of the work. Save valuable time with fewer trips to the grocery store thanks to HelloFresh Market.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
There's over 100 add-on items that you can add to your weekly box like quick breakfast, packable snacks, beverages, and more. Luckily, my little baby girl is a pretty adventurous eater. So that's good. We've got some other folks, some other podcast co-hosts over the next level. JVL, it's a little tougher situation in that home. They got children with exacting standards on the meals.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But across all of us, Sarah and JVL and me, what we found is there are options at HelloFresh that work for our kids, make it easy for us to cook and do meal prep and also do prep for these podcasts. Listen to Derek Thompson's article on my, my earphones that I can cook at the same time and ask engaging questions like I did today.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
It all works out if you need to multitask, if you've got kids that are looking for a good meal, if you turn to HelloFresh. You can get up to 10 free meals and a free high-protein item for life at HelloFresh.com slash TheBullwork10FM. One item per box with active subscription. Free meals applied as discount on the first box. New subscribers only. It varies by plan.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
That's up to 10 free HelloFresh meals. Just go to HelloFresh.com slash TheBullwork10FM. All right, we are back with Liz Weil, features writer at New York Magazine. She previously covered climate in California for ProPublica and was a writer at large for the New York Times Magazine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
She won an Emmy in 2023 for working on a documentary, Unlivable Oasis, about a Southern California community of farm workers living in sun-baked trailers. Boy. Yeah. It's been a tough couple days. I was reading your old article and I was like, I really want to get this person on the podcast. We've never met before, so I appreciate you doing it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
One of those articles you wrote that jumped off of me, I just want to start there. It was kind of like a throwaway line in one of the articles you wrote. Where we are now, January... the fresh and less fire alarming time of the year should be the moment for us to relax. You don't have to look at that in a January article, I think in 2022. And here we are. That's a pretty ominous sign.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
So I'm wondering what your biggest picture thoughts are watching everything going on in LA.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Your first article, the one that prompted me to reach out, was titled Megafires, Why Won't Anyone Listen? It was written in 2020, but it references an interview with a guy going back to 2005. A lot of that is about... Much of the more, I guess, urban, rural part of California where the forests meet the communities, if you will. The L.A. situation is a little bit distinct in one sense.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
You know, I pulled out there's this Didion in California. In Sludging to Bethlehem, she writes, It's hard for people who have not lived in L.A. to realize how radically the Santa Ana winds figure in the local imagination. The city burning is Los Angeles' deepest image of itself.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
The violence and unpredictability of the Santa Ana affect the entire quality of life in L.A., accentuate its impermanence, its unreliability. The wind shows us how close to the edge we are. I was curious for you, before we kind of get deep on forest management, How much of this you see as a part of the broader California story or something unique to Los Angeles and the Santa Ana?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
In that 2020 ProPublica piece, you interviewed a guy named Tim Inglesby.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And he had started a group, Firefighters United for Safety, Ethics, and Ecology, back in 2005. And you read that he had been lobbying Congress trying to educate anybody who will listen about misguided fire policy that is leading to the megafires we're seeing today. And so, when you wrote that in that context of 2020, obviously this right now, everything gets... gets so political so quick, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And everybody's like, well, it's just the climate or, you know, you have Trump, it's like, it's just the smelt fish and the water coming down from the north. And it's like, but with regards to what's happening in California, there was a very specific thing that you were writing about that people have been warning about for a long time. Talk about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
So here's the thing, though. If you say it was the one thing that the bipartisan, everybody can agree on, we're doing this wrong, but then it doesn't happen. With a few exceptions. I think it was in the Times article that in 2021, California was starting to do this. There was a managed fire that was created to clear out some of the brush, but then it got out of control.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
and there was damage, and then they'd stop doing it for the rest of the year, right? Because there's blowback from the community. In the prehistoric California, 4.4 million acres burned each year. Between 82 and 98, California land managers burned about 30,000 acres a year. Between 99 and 2017, it dropped to 13,000 acres. If people on both sides agree with it, why isn't it happening?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Another thing that jumped out at me from your stories was California only manages like 3% of these lands. Like about half of it is a federal land management problem. If, you know, Inglesby and such have been advocating about this since 05. You know, we've had presidents and Department of Interiors of both parties, you know, going back and forth over this. Like what...
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Do you have any sense for where is the failure point at federal, California, both? What's your sense for that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Because it's January... some of the resources they put into this are seasonal, right? And so like they didn't have the people, the equipment, you know, ready that they might have had it been, you know, September.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Just the extent of it, just the fact that I anecdotally know two people whose houses have burned down, like just sort of shows like the extent of this. And it's just so widespread. And yet you have to talk about how this is like this challenge is also like a challenge of choice. of all of us. Look, I live in New Orleans, so I'm making a similar choice, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Like people that are choosing to live in high-risk areas and that we're not kind of living in reality. You did this good interview with somebody who was talking about just like how, you know, our brains are wired to be like, oh, everything is going to be fine or it's the apocalypse, right? And there's not this in-between of
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
of understanding managed risks and making choices that are smart and making growth choices that are smart anyway you've done a lot of reporting on this in california like what maybe this might be a moment for that to change i don't know
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
I wrote this note down because that 30% in the last 20 years feels like a lot. But when Putnam wrote his book, it had declined 45% already from the 70s to 2000s. So it declined an additional 32% on top of that. It's not even close to Mad Men era as far as hosting people over for dinner parties.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And you love people there, whatever you're like, you know, the house is on cinder blocks, you know, we do different things with the windows, you know?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
What about the water side of this? A lot of the Republicans have really glommed on to this particular that there was water coming from the northern part of California and it was slowed because of the fish or certain environmental concerns. How do you see the water management question in California intersecting with the firefighting question?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Coming back to our headline, why won't anyone listen? If this is a moment to get people to listen, obviously the managed care of the forests and the density of the forests, which are unnatural based on California's historic geology. And are there other things that the experts that you spoke to are saying, like, it's just insane that we're not doing this or it's insane that we're doing this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
It absolutely needs to be part of the conversation. We have deep concerns about that. I do think we've just made a choice that at least in this country, we're not going to care about that for the next four years. And so that's why some of these other like management issues are so important, right? It's like, yes, we should do things to address climate.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Also, too, this is inevitably getting worse and we can't like put our heads in the sand about that, you know?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
You wrote a beautiful article called This Is Not the California I Married just about your relationship to the state and these fires in New York Times Magazine. We'll put it in the show notes. It resonated with me on a deep level as somebody who's made a marriage of choice to a city with a different ecological environmental challenge. If you don't mind... You also wrote a profile of Sam Altman.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Can I just pick your brain on that really quick before we leave? There's this big drama, people have missed it right now about Sam Altman who runs OpenAI and is probably the leading AI entrepreneur in the world right now for folks who aren't familiar with that. And his sister has gone through a lot of
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
trauma a lot of emotional issues a lot of personal issues and now there's a big lawsuit where she is firing some pretty serious allegations against her brother but you had written a profile on sam and interviewed annie for it which is like pretty interesting given the moments i'm just i kind of just wanted to put a quarter in the machine and hear what you had to say about that that whole story
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
How are you doing, brother? Tim, what a generous open. Thank you so much. It's great to be here. Brother, I don't blow smoke, and so it's a generous intro because it's true. It's a great pod, but we've got a lot to get to. You have a cover story that we're here to talk about. The Atlantic Magazine about solitude.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
The wild part of the story that I read was like, I mean, she was hungry. I mean, she didn't have enough money for rent and for groceries.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And Sam Altman is one of the richest people in the world. Depending on the success of OpenAI, I might be the richest man in the world, you know, in the next decade. That's insane. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Like, bro, I'm living in my car. What are you talking about?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Look, I understand family dynamics are complicated. Sometimes you don't want to enable somebody that's, you know, and try to encourage them to make good decisions or whatever. But like, if you're one of the richest people in the world and your sister can't afford groceries, you can't figure out a system for ensuring that they have groceries. Yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
So what is it to be... Certainly raises some questions about how he's going to wield that power.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
sam altman and the vulnerable by looking at how he's handled this relationship with his sister it was quite an interesting piece i encourage people to read it i was reading it last night later because you know i was looking at the other articles you've written and i was like huh i should read this one it's like you know midnight and i'm scrolling through it i was like what what
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
no i hadn't read it when it came out so i encourage you to go check her same altman profile also mega fires why won't anyone listen this is not the california i married it is just it's a tragedy out there it is awful and my heart goes out to anybody who is involved with it or his family's lost a home and um we'll uh in the coming days we'll be including in the show notes uh some kind of vetted places where you can support victims so i appreciate that appreciate you liz while for taking the time here to come on the pod and um everybody else we'll see you back here tomorrow peace
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And so I want to spend a bunch of time on that and then a few other things you've been writing about lately. I had this exclamation point in my notes as I was reading it. You wrote, study show Americans spent even more time alone in 2023 than they did in 2021.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Yeah. So, let's talk about some of the costs of this. Because you do write like there's some difference between solitude and loneliness. You know, some people really enjoy solitude. And this is maybe disaggregated somewhat from another trend that people have been watching, the epidemic of loneliness. What exactly are you positing are some of the problems?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Let's actually just save the political part of this for the very end because, you know, we can dedicate a bunch of time to that. But just the social problems.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But you're a public in a hotel bar. What about a glass of wine alone in your hotel room?
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
when we didn't even have the vaccine all of 2021, and we were forcibly at home in 2021, many of us for at least a few months, that is a pretty alarming stat in an article that is filled with alarming stats. So talk to us just about the biggest picture trajectory and what you are reporting on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We got a doubleheader today. The news out of Los Angeles is just so horrifying. We've added Liz Weil, who's been reporting on California fires for years, to segment two. So stick around for that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
I'm going to obsess over that study for a while because that's a great factoid about the train. I'm an extrovert, and even I'm like, I wouldn't want to talk to a stranger on the train. But I can see why the result would come out like that. I think there's an element of this that's even a little worse than what you're saying. Also, is that people think that they'll be happier being alone.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But also with social media, particularly for a certain generation, like our age and younger in particular, People are getting what they think is social interaction without having real deep social interaction. And so you gave an example in the article about a trend on TikTok of people doing videos about how relieved they are when a friend cancels plans and how much engagement they get.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
I'm going to do a quick preamble myself because I don't want to be offensive because there could be plenty of... reasons for this. But you know, one of the influencers that I follow is a person who has, you know, 50,000 followers or something on Instagram and like gets a ton of engagement online. And just this weekend, like right before I read your article, they posted from their wedding,
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
And it was like, they don't have any friends, actually. It was like a small group. Now, that could have been a lot of things. I go to, you know, it could have been money. It could have been. But it was like, no, the wedding had a photographer. It had a drone. It had like a lot of pictures of the couple, but like not a lot of reveling. And I just use that not to pick on that person or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Derek Thompson and Elizabeth Weil: The Trend Toward Solitude
But like, is it like the all these things like we see all this, right? There are plenty of anecdotes of this, right? Of people that like, it seems online like they're getting sociability, but they don't actually socialize in the real world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
This is one thing I want to ask you about. You're like your little conservative pleasure centers. There's no part of the last 18 days that's tickled anything. You're like, all right, we do need to shut down. It was about time we shut down some of these agencies. They were bloated. There's nothing in there for you? Nope. You know why?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
No, you're right. I mean, for some of these people, it's paying for the tax cut, and that's going to be a big sticky wicket for them because that's a $4 or $5 trillion price tag that there's no money for. For other of these guys, though, this is kind of why I was interested in your answer because you were sort of talking around this point, which is some of these guys aren't conservative.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
They're arsonists. There's a difference between wanting to have a leaner, smaller, more responsive government and wanting chaos, wanting to tear everything down because you want to take power for yourself. Both of those people live together in this administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
The ones that are doing this because they want to pay for the tax cuts and the ones that are doing this because they want to see everything burn.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And this is related to some of the things that I want to talk about. So just hear a couple of news items this morning. We got CBS Jen Jacobs, who is reporting that some federal employees say they found a program downloaded to their government computers that could be used to sift through their team chats to search for keywords. Treasury computers included.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Some staff told CBS they think Musk looking for signs of disloyalty. Washington Post agents of Musk have gained access to highly restricted government records on millions of federal employees, including Treasury and State Department. officials as part of a broader effort to wrest control over the government's personnel agency. This is very alarming, scary stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
But to your point, it is framed as a Musk operation, not a Trump operation. And that is showing in the polls. The other item from this morning, Elon Musk approval, disapproved 49%, approved 39%. Doge approved, disapproved 46%, approved 41%. So he's already less popular than Trump. He is already out there taking the arrows.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And in these stories that are straight out of 1984 dystopia, where it's like we're going to be spying on mid-level Treasury officials whose job is just to ensure that payments get processed, to make sure they haven't said any wrong thoughts about Donald Trump before. That's about Trump. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
All right, well, I was going to get into that at the end, but let's just do this right off the top. We'll get to the news next. Because you had kind of a viral little exchange with our friend Joe Scarborough a couple weeks ago. I don't want to be rude. I understand the instinct, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And also, it might be Elon and his 23-year-old incels that are executing this spy campaign and purge within the federal government, but they're looking for people who are disloyal to Trump. That is what this is about. Thank you. All right, guys, tired of figuring out what's for dinner night after night, especially on those busy weekdays?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Get dinner done the easy way, thanks to our friends at HelloFresh. This is an issue for me. I don't know about this. This is an issue for you guys in your household. But there's nothing that gets my blood pressure going up more than at 4.45. We eat dinner early. 4.45, 4.50, 5 o'clock, looking at my husband saying, all right, what do you want? What do you want? What do you want to do?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
What do you want to do? Oh, horrible. You need to actually have a plan. And HelloFresh's 15-minute meals are done in just three simple steps so you can eat better this year without all the hassle and without having to worry about what you're going to do every single night. Look, as for me, I like HelloFresh because it's easy meal prep.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
It allows me to do podcast prep and meal prep at the same time. I'm listening to an article or an interview with the guests that I have on the next day. So I can start thinking about what a good topic is going to be. And I can do that and have my mind be half focused on that and only half focused on the quick and easy meal prep that HelloFresh provides.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
So it is something that is very useful around our house. Highly recommend. And here's the deal. If you sign up now, you can get up to 10 free meals and a free high-protein item for life at hellofresh.com slash thebullwork10fm. One item per box with an active subscription. Free meals applied as discount on the first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's up to 10 free HelloFresh meals.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
of some folks in the post after, well, you and I weren't shocked, but after the shock that some people went through of Trump winning, to be like, we need to reassess. Maybe what we were doing before wasn't right. Maybe there needs to be more accommodation. It's not that I don't get that instinct. I get it. I just think that it's wrong. And it fundamentally misunderstands
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Just go to hellofresh.com slash thebullwork10fm. And then you can get started with HelloFresh, America's number one meal kit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I know. I'm thinking about, do I need a... It's 8.42 a.m. I probably shouldn't be thinking about a cigarette quite yet. All right. So we have... Trump gives the press conference with Bibi. He seemed to even take Bibi and Susie Wiles off guard based on their facial reactions about the degree of his plans for a casino on the Gaza Strip, the Riviera of the Middle East.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Then we go through the same rigmarole. We always go through it. Next day... You know, Mike Johnson's like, well, you know, we got to see what the details are on this. I think he's being aspirational. Marco Rubio, oh, this is not part of the plan. You know, there's people in background talking to reporters like, well, you know, he was a little out of over his skis.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Trump sends out a bleat this morning. I don't know if you've seen this. The Gaza Strip would be turned over to the U.S. by Israel at the conclusion of the fighting. The Palestinians, people like Chuck Schumer, would have already been resettled. The U.S. would slowly and carefully begin the construction of what would become one of the greatest and most spectacular developments of its kind on Earth.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Like, we're back to doing the same shit. It's like the people around him are like, let me try to retcon what Trump said to make it seem normal. Trump's like, nope, actually, I'm going to make racist jokes about the Palestinians and how somebody that I don't like is a Palestinian because that's a slur to me. And I'm dead serious. I want Trump, hotel, Gaza Strip. So it's all bullshit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
What are the rules at that beach club going to be? Are the women, what's the women's dress rules going to be at the Trump Beach Club Gaza Strip?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I don't know, man. So this is where maybe my instincts are wrong. And so I want you to tell me why this is wrong. But part of me is like, all these smart people are like, don't take the Trump bait. You know, this is what he wants. He wants to distract you. And part of me is kind of like, I don't know. All this bait works for him. Because this stuff trickles down. And regular people see it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
why Trump won and why Democrats failed. And I think that the moment right now, which I think people are coming around to once they start seeing the reality of all this, is calling for going to the mattresses, opposition, doing everything possible to try to, you know, put gunk in the spokes of their tires, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And regular people are like, that don't think about this stuff that deeply. They're like, yeah, that would be cool for America. If we had America Riviera right there on the Gaza Strip. And maybe the answer is trolling back. Like, I don't know. If you're a good Democratic troll like Jared Moskowitz, maybe shouldn't he be filing a bill today saying, Be it resolved.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
The United States is planning on investing in a new casino and high-rise development in the Gaza Strip. I want to budget. Here's a $15 billion budget for it. And I would like my Republican colleagues to be my co-sponsor on this bill. Let's see it. Who's going to build it? We're going to be sent contractors there. Part of me is like, instead of don't take the bait, maybe bait them back.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And let's take some of the MAGA Americans that suffered in the Biden economy. And that's good work for them. There's construction work. That's real.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I want to talk about an economic matter. I know that you saw this. Carolyn Leavitt was asked the other day about prices, and I want to take a listen to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I love that little, as you know, Fox Business, shouldn't you be on our side on this one? That question was a little hard.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
To do anything to slow these guys down and create a narrative about how this is going to be a disastrous failed presidency. that need to be avoided, right? And that is the only actually job for people that are opposed to Trump, whether you're on the left or the pro-democracy right or whatever. That's the job, in my view. And not everybody's come around to that yet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I can't afford... Why do they keep saying grocery pump?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Luckily, we'll have RFK Jr. in charge of managing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I mean, obviously you weren't surprised, but like, man, it is really something that RFK and Tulsi are just going down party line votes. Like, it's really something. You know, Michael, if we had a little time machine, if we got to our little DeLorean and went back to October and got around the table with Todd Young and Susan Collins, Tom Tillis, and we're like, Trump is going to win.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And he's going to make a Fox host, the head of the military, RFK, the head of HHS, and Tulsi, the head of the National Intelligence Services. And y'all are going to go along with all of it. I think that these guys would have told us that we had TDS. I think they would have been like, no, no. Oh, come on. Come on. Either he wouldn't do all of that or I would oppose some of it. And here we are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
It's like such a dog bites man story at this point. I almost get bored mentioning it on the podcast.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I guess you and Joe had a little disagreement on that point.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I'm going to agree with you. Here's what he said to me. I saw him at that Turning Point USA thing I go to every year. We're in the lobby of the hotel. I said, Matt, number one, you made me look like a bad pundit because I said you were getting through. And then you bailed like a little wuss. And he laughed at that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And then we started talking for a little bit, and he starts doing his fake talk and whatever. But I was like, but really? Like, really? Why didn't you push it? And he says to me, he goes, Tim, John Curtis from Utah, the senator that's replaced Romney, he told me privately that it was something like he'd sacrificed his children before he voted to make me the attorney general.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And we're sitting right here two months later, February 6th, and I'm like, I would put my mortgage on John Curtis voting to confirm Matt Gaetz. Where is John Curtis? John Curtis is nowhere. He hadn't done anything at any of these hearings. All these guys are tough as nails in their office. Tough talk. But when push comes to shove, they all were going to fold. Gaetz could have gotten through.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
We can say that again. That's a pussydom. That's a word we can say again now in 2025. I don't know if you knew this, but it was banned during the woke Biden era. You weren't allowed to say that, but we can say it again. We're in a whole different space now. Different words are banned now. Justice. You can't say justice. You can't say equality.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
You were the chairman of a committee. You won some elections back then, in that midterm. Democrats just elected a new chairman, Ken Martin. I don't know Ken Martin, so he could prove me wrong. I've never met Ken Martin. All I know is what I watched during the DNC chairs race. And it felt very milquetoast to me. It felt very limp. And so I hope to be proven wrong on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
But I'm wondering if somebody sends Ken Martin this little video clip here, I'm wondering what your advice would be to him. We had Ken Martin on our show the week before the election.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
It's early. It's early. Okay. One other thing, just to end with some feelings. I was with you. I think it was like two or three weeks before the election. I forget what the reason was. I was up in New York. And it was before the red light had gone on. We were sitting around the table as you and Simone and me. And I was like, guys, I think we're losing. I was like, I think that we're losing. Right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And what do you think? And some other people around the table were like, I don't know. And the two of you were like... We're losing. It's looking bad. And I didn't get a chance to ask you then, what were you seeing that made you feel that way? What were you seeing that made you feel that the country was going a direction where they were not only coming to terms with Trump, but affirming him?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Well, we've got four more years of fighting. People get it eventually. Once people start getting part-walked out to their own investigation, people feel it real good. Okay, hold on. I was supposed to be the last thing. That was too sad. I want to play you one clip. We're going to end with this clip.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
We've got a big football game on Sunday, and our president, who's very mentally sharp, was talking about the game. I want to listen to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
So Donald Trump talking about Tommy Tuberville. One little problem with that, though. You know what the problem is, Chairman Steele? Are you a big college football fan? No, I'm not a big college football fan. One little problem. One little problem. Tommy Tuberville didn't coach Patrick Holmes ever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I don't know college football, but I think I knew that. I was like, he just made it up. He just made up some story about Tommy Tuberville, the dumbest senator ever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I mean, time is a flat circle. It was either on Monday's show or Tuesday's show. I was like, this has been the longest three weeks of my life. And then I was like, wait a minute. It's only been two weeks, actually. So, you know, I'm here. I'm alive. And that's about all we can ask for right now, right? How are you doing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
If we get to just make stuff up, you can't wait. I'm going to be telling about the boys that I kissed back in the day. I'm going to be naming some big names. I'm just going to be like, oh man, I did it. Just like Tommy Tuberville coached Patrick Mahomes. You know?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Yeah, me and little Nas X. I was coaching him on that. Anyway, Michael Steele, I'm so happy you're in our little family here. Thanks for taking all the time today. Nah, man. It's my pleasure, brother. Always. We got much to talk about. All right. That's the chairman. We'll be back tomorrow with somebody a little more liberal than the chairman. He'll take us through the weekend. See you all then.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Yeah. I think part of it is fear. Some people are afraid, right? If they do that of him. Right of him and what they could do. And they're like, okay, well, if I soften the edges of my attacks here, maybe they won't come after me. I'm not telling you. I'm just trying to explain their thinking, man. That's not me. You're as confused as I am. All right. I think that's some of it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I think some of it is like Trump does back down every once in a while. So they're like, why not try to get mine on my one little thing? Those are all considerations. But I'm hoping the thing is changing. There's one piece of evidence of this on your boy, Hakeem. There were some initial rumblings in the start here that like the move was, okay, you know, hey.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
We're not going to bail them out, but if they want to come to us with a deal, and it's like some border funding in California, and then we keep the government open, we raise the debt ceiling, we'll be responsible stewards, and we'll get a few things. We'll get a few pounds of flesh out of them, get a few little pieces of silver, and we'll cut a deal. That's what the reporters are saying.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And I'm going, what in the fuck are you talking about? Sure. Like, what are you talking about? Like, there's no deal. There's no deal. Like, make them do it. Make them govern. Like, there's no deal to be made. They're shutting down parts of the government illegally right now and blocking payments to Lutheran services.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And you're like, I'm going to work with them on a border security plus fire relief deal? No, F that. And we're starting to see the tone change on that for the Democrats. News out this morning that the Kash Patel hearing is being delayed because of new information that's been coming out about the ways they're trying to weaponize the FBI. So maybe they're starting to get it a little bit, Michael?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
I said it was the longest two weeks ever, but there's only 102 weeks left until they could actually take over the speakership and get some power. Oh, he's not counting. He's not counting. Right, but I'm just saying that Kash Patel can do a lot less damage in 96 weeks than he can do in 101 weeks. Honestly, it does take time to gum up the works. All right, there's a story related to this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
We've got to get into all the Elon news. I could really turn this into an Elon podcast. I don't understand. The guy, he tweeted 200 times yesterday. He's running three companies, and he's tearing apart the entire federal government. There's so many stories about him. It's taking over my entire outline. But I want to get to a couple of stories.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
But there was one thing that you tweeted about that I think kind of frames this conversation here. And that is this. There was... A former NOAA official said this. The strategy here is, well, we're just going to do it and dare somebody to stop us. And by the time they stop us, we'll have destroyed it. And that, to me, is the most succinct summation of all this Elon stuff we're about to get into.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
But do you have any thoughts on that bigger picture?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I'm delighted to be here with the former chair of the Republican National Committee. He's host of the Michael Steele Podcast, distributed right here by the Bulwark. He's co-host of The Weekend on MSNBC. He was lieutenant governor of Maryland. It's Michael Steele. How you doing, Chairman?
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
Yeah. And I hate to leave this on the federal workers, but in a lot of places, it's like folks are going to need to stand up. So I said to Ann about on Tuesday. But look, it's like there's this post article this morning. This time, the resistance is unfolding in the courts rather than the streets. You have FBI agents suing over Trump's plan to target the agents that investigated the insurrection.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
You know, the unions have asked a judge to block the Doge efforts from accessing personal information. Our friends at Protect Democracy and others are working on this. Again, it's a delay rather than a stop tactic. But like the combination of the courts, but like publicly speaking out is going to have to be what this comes to.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
And I do think that that comes with a little bit of fear for some people, but like giving tangible examples of damage being done.
The Bulwark Podcast
Michael Steele: Gum Up the Works
All you little red things. We're seeing it in Virginia. There was already some shutting down of community health centers because they weren't getting payments.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So unclear whether that was bad luck or timing on behalf of the perpetrator. Also, there's a Cybertruck attack in Vegas. There was a mass shooting in Queens last night at a nightclub. The CNN headline, I was just making sure I had my facts right this morning looking through everything, was New Orleans attacked deadliest since Maine mass shooting.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So that's why the Tulsi thing is what is more alarming to you?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Yeah, and a lot of investigations that can happen before checks. That's, to me, why cash is the most alarming, right? I mean, even when Gates was going to be a DOJ, there was plenty of potential harm there. But pretty quickly, you get to, well, we need a grand jury. There are other checks into place.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I don't even remember the Maine mass shooting, which I think tells you a little something about American life. So I'm just wondering if you have any other top line thoughts based on what we know now.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
The FBI has a lot of surveillance and investigation capabilities where he gets Mr. Maga from Albuquerque to start looking into people before anybody else gets involved.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I want to go back to just Tulsi for a second because it relates to the New Orleans incident. Again, more stuff developing. To me, what we know so far about this, the suspect, is that this is a person that was like, its personal life was a disaster and, you know, gets divorced and stuff. and, you know, is unable to see his family. And then, you know, it gets, you know, radicalized.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And so TBD on what kind of associates he did or did not have. But my colleague at the blog, Will Selber, and others have been talking about how the threat of radical Islamic terror is back on the rise. We have this very uncertain world, obviously, with what has happened in Syria. We have Tulsi now headed into this very sensitive post And at times, she's actively working against our interests.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And so I do, just given the threat landscape around the world, I wonder how you look at the Tulsi nomination in that context.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And that was it seems like the case in this instance, I said that he was planning to kill his family. I don't know. It didn't work for some reason. And and, you know, to your point, it's just the inverse of the MAGA complaint. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Which was the military intelligence services or Mark Milley or whatever were too focused on the, you know, white nationalist threats, the people that have been radicalized, you know, by far right ideologies, you know, at the expense of this. And, you know, like the answer is just to flip that around, I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
This sounds like what I was like when I saw Matt Gaetz in Arizona two weeks ago. I said, you made me a bad pundit. I thought that you were going to fight through this all. Anyway, to your point about stopping, we should give the feds some credit. On the other hand, Virginia man had weapons cash, used Biden photo for target practice, was the largest weapons cash in history. That was stopped.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
That throw was stopped at the same time that this threat in New Orleans, unfortunately, was not You'd mentioned the populism that is tariffs or the non-populism. I wanted to share with you something that I feel like David Frum is particularly suited to respond to. We've marked Andreessen, one of our new oligarchs, who is a big venture capitalist, advisor to Trump, seed investor in the free press.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
He posted this. This is a really remarkable chart of tariffs as a percent of total federal revenue. Essentially, what it shows is that from... You know, 1790 through the Civil War, about, you know, much of the federal revenues came from tariffs over 80 percent from the Civil War through basically World War One.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
It was above 50 percent and it drops greatly after World War Two and then continues to drop greatly. Andreessen writes that this shows that the second industrial revolution, which was perhaps the most fertile for technology development and deployment in human history, happened during this period where tariff revenue was above 50%.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Donald Trump then retweeted his new friend Andreessen saying, "...the tariffs and the tariffs alone created this vast wealth for our country. Then we switched over to income tax. We were never so wealthy as during this period. Tariffs will pay off our debt."
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Yeah, please. No. This is why I put it on the T for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I don't even know if Andreessen's making a dumb point or if he is just buttering up Trump. You know, like the idea that he sends this as one thing, but that Trump then sees it and he's advising Trump. To me, this seems like the kind of thing that I know would make Mr. Trump happy. And I have this kind of contrarian point I can make. I'm going to make it and I'm going to show it to him.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
The relation to this, to your point about the oligarchic element of this, that Trump can also use the tariffs to curry favor, takes us to, of course, Elon Musk, who has a lot of potential businesses that could be harmed by tariffs. I suspect that it will not be his that are targeted.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
There was Lieutenant General Russell Honore wrote in The Times that Elon Musk is a national security risk a couple of days ago, wrote about Musk's various dealings with China. I'm interested in your take on that kind of relationship, like the Musk-China element of it and how it is going to overlap with our new oligarchy.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
We have a couple of David Frum special topics we have to get to. The first is what the hell is happening in Canada. We have Trump now talking about how Justin Trudeau is governor. Trudeau making jokes about the 51st state. Trudeau went down to Mar-a-Lago to make an appeal to Trump directly.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Trudeau has his own major domestic problems, and there is a conservative kind of rising, it looks like, to challenge or potentially upend Trudeau in Canada. Everybody kind of uses the Trump of whatever shorthand, and he seems like a more traditional conservative to me. So I'm curious your view on both sides here, what Trump is doing and what's happening up north.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
This could be the mega Quebecois alliance that you've been waiting for, David. You know, they give them their freedom and the little island amidst the American expansion.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I'm going to butcher the guy's last name, but I have to ask you what you think about Pierre Parlevre? Parlevre, yeah. Who's, I guess, likely the next prime minister?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I also would be remiss if I did not ask you about the little kerfuffle with our friends over at Morning Joe. For folks that don't recall, before the holiday, you made a joke, which I thought was a quite funny joke, actually, about how if Pete Hegseth was notably drunk at Fox, you'd have to be – I think you said you'd have to be very drunk indeed to be notably drunk to stand out at Fox –
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Yeah, I think the darkest part of our soul that is revealed to me, I mean, the violence itself is obviously the greatest problem and it's horrific, but I think it's a window into the soul that when an event like this happens now and you get online, you get on your social media of choice or even unintentionally you're on social media and what you see is Not really.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
potentially referencing Judge Jeanine. I don't know who he might have been referencing there. And I guess producer implored you to kind of back off the joke. There was a public back and forth about this friendly one with Scarborough, you know, kind of about this kind of circles back to the question of how to handle, you know, the new Trump administration.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I'm wondering how you feel about all of that now, maybe not in particular, you know, about Joe Scarborough, but broadly about whether you are continuing to observe in the media a culture of fear, of people sort of editing themselves out of concern about the next Trump administration?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Do you think that just at the broadest level, do you remain concerned that some of these institutions are preemptively backing down in a way that is going to allow the incoming administration to get away with things they might not otherwise have? It's inevitable.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I mean, some information, you get misinformation and sometimes correct information, which is always going to be the case in a developing story. But you also just get a preponderance of people basically rooting for the perpetrator to be of a political tribe that they dislike. And that seems to be a cross-partisan sickness sometimes. You see this in every incident.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I want to end by asking you about you in this regard, actually. When we last spoke, I believe it was the day before the election, and you were contemplating in a Kamala Harris administration in an alternate universe that you might be backing away from this kind of work altogether.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
It seems like that is not the case given our current predicament, but you kind of alluded to this at the top, even thinking about how you're gonna work in a Trump administration. I'm just, I'm wondering how, how you're thinking about that now.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I want to give you, in the Catholics, we have the gesture of the pen of the cross on your forehead and your lips and your heart. I want to let you know you're okay. You're free. You're free if you need to be free of this. There are other people that can carry the mantle. You know, you did run through the tape. Have you contemplated that?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Well, we all have struggles. I feel like, what the fuck else am I going to do? I've not gone through the tragedy that you have. And so I'm empathetic to you and to wanting to free you to find fulfilling stuff. And here we are. To me, I think that there's some value in showing up every day and doing this and working through it with smart people such as you.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
So I'm grateful that you're sticking with it.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
You would expect that our leaders would be a little bit more restrained in this element of the sickness. We're not getting that from the incoming president. He bleeded on his social media yesterday before we even knew who the suspect was. Criminals coming in are far worse than the criminals we have in our country. Blaming this on migrant crime.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
May it be so. We'll leave it there. I appreciate you very much, David Frum. Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Borg Podcast. Peace. Bye-bye.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
The Board Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
His son said that Biden's parting gift is migrant terror. Hawley, Josh Hawley, Senator Hawley, is tweeting demanding... Mayorkas accountability. The suspect was born in Texas as U.S. Army veteran, obviously a Muslim, and was carrying an ISIS flag. So it would have been, had they waited a couple hours, there could have been another group that they could have waited to target.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
But it's pretty telling that we have a president-elect, you know, like popping off like a radio call-in person an hour after an attack such as this.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
There was a South Carolina Republican Party chair who was not that bright of a guy otherwise and was deeply conservative. I was interviewing him. I was expecting it to be like a lot more hostile. This was maybe back in 2021. He's Trumpy, so conservative in the Trumpy sense. And I was asking him about Lin Wood. And I don't know if you remember Lin Wood. He's one of the many characters of our time.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And he was one of the leading proponents of the most insane edge theories around the 2020 election that obviously at that time the President Trump glommed on to. And the South Carolina party chair had... You know, tried to tell him to tamp it down, essentially, and had this huge uproar against him and the state. I was like, did all these people exist? Like, what happened?
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
How did this happen that everybody became so delusional to buy? And like Lin Wood's theories were literally like that Trump was still controlling the nukes after Biden was already president. And he's like, you know, he said these people always existed, but there were two of them at every county Republican meeting. Yeah. But the ones in Greenville did not know the ones in Columbia.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
And that is not the case anymore. They've been able to meet and organize and multiply. And I do think that that is true across verticals. There's one other thing that I do want to mention with regards to the New Orleans event that is going to overlap with our politics. Yeah. One of the early press conferences, one of the FBI officials said that this is not a terrorist event.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is our first episode of 2025. And so I'm delighted to be here with favorite of the pod, staff writer at The Atlantic, author of 10 books, most recently Trumpocalypse. It's David Frum. How are you doing, David? All right. Thank you.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
It's a pretty dumb quote, I would say, and it was going around on right-wing social media. But added on top of that were a series of attacks. Marsha Blackburn found some old posts where the New Orleans FBI officials were protecting the Taylor Swift concert and had some Swift bracelets on. She thought that was inappropriate. It was a diversity hiring event.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
I've seen top Republican consultants say mass firings must take place at the FBI. John Barrasso, who is ostensibly one of the more normal ones, was like, this shows we need to confirm. Kash Patel and the national security team immediately.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
This rationale to take this horrible event and potentially some mistakes, of course, that people at the FBI aren't perfect from the FBI and turn it into something we need a hack for Donald Trump to be confirmed immediately is pretty alarming to me. I don't know what your thoughts are about that and cash generally. That is a great point.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
The person at this press conference, by the way, was a black female police officer. I don't know if you knew that or not.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Yeah, I think that also part of it is that they want – again, this goes back to that sickness that I was talking about, immediate social media. Like, they want a FBI director that is engaging in that online political war immediately, right? So, like, oh, we're going to leak that this person is a Muslim terrorist, not a good MAGA American, right? Like, we want people to know that immediately.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
That is going to be the first hit that we leak. Yeah. If there's any suspicion anywhere that somebody that is trans committed a crime, we're going to have a press conference on that to focus on that. We're going to minimize the crimes focused by political allies. I really think it's that. I think there's a sense that – I think it's an incorrect sense, but there's a sense that the FBI –
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
or federal officials like play up crimes such as January 6th crimes, such as Daniel Penny, whatever, and not these other crimes by their perceived foes, racial or political. I think that's what it is. That would be obviously a pretty embarrassing thing to spell out. So I don't think that they would spell that out.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
It is horrible. And it's a sad wintering in the new year. And we had 15 are dead here and many more injured. So TBD on a final count there. The perpetrator was driving a truck with an ISIS flag and turned onto Bourbon Street off of Canal Road. They're usually bollards there to protect against us, but they were replacing them for the Super Bowl.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
Well, unfortunately, I think that we have more serious things in front of us in the election of judges to cover, though, again, I don't necessarily disagree with that critique. On cash, we've not spoken since the election, I guess, on this podcast. And so I guess I'm wondering your assessment of the cabinet writ large and what things are the most alarming to you.
The Bulwark Podcast
David Frum: Sociopaths and Political Tribalism
We're coming up here in the next couple of weeks. We're going to have some of these confirmation hearings. Is cash at the top of your list or others? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Yeah, the Saved by the Bell stuff spoke to your generation, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Well, Vivek clearly wasn't watching enough Saved by the Bell because he didn't really get the references exactly right. Zach had a better SAT score than Screech. But anyway, so this fight, some of it, I could see how somebody might think, oh, this is just like, The king's court fighting in any, you know, for attention in any regime.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I do think that the immigration thing, though, if there is anything that is core to MAGA, it is immigration and nativism. And Elon went so hard to the map on this. He sent a tweet that talked about how he will go to war. saying F you to somebody who had been attacking him over this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
There was this tweet by Autism Capital, which is like a crypto thing, where they were trying to summarize the fight and the two factions on the right. And this guy writes that the tech right or the Doge right is saying that American workers are too retarded to do these jobs and you can't out train being retarded. And Elon Musk replied to that guy saying that pretty much sums it up.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
This was eye opening. So to me, again, you're not going to kick Elon out because of the money, like I said earlier. But it does reveal a fundamental rift, right, that if these guys aren't willing to swallow the tech guys, their views on immigration will. Then, eventually, I would think that they're going to lose out to the Stephen Miller wing internally.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And I guess the last thing I'll say about this, I'm curious your thought, is that the immigration fight could be the first fight. Because Revote and those guys want a reconciliation bill in the first 30, 60 days. This goes back to what Gates told me about during the deportations day one. They want a reconciliation bill.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And so I think that could be an interesting data point, given the close relationship between Cash and Steve for a confirmation hearing. So anyway, after that interview, it's one of those things where MAGA takes over downtown Phoenix. And so we're in a hotel. We're doing this interview. I go downstairs to the hotel lobby. And I just bump into people, Bill. I don't know. These people, they know me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
on immigration to fund the border to fund the jackbooted thugs to fund whatever else they you know they've come up with asap so they can get moving on their deportation plans and so who knows maybe they end up just kind of ignoring the legal immigration part of the fight and they can move forward but it's not like this is something that's going to simmer and then they'll deal with in 2026 you know and it's coming soon so anyway what do you think
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
They're from a past life or from this current life. Some of them really hate me as a MAGA provocateur. Some of them are old colleagues that I work for on campaigns. So, I started chatting with some people in the lobby, including Matt Gaetz. I don't think that I include the Gaetz bit in the article. I still like to see Gaetz in the lobby. He was definitely a little bit chastened, I would say.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I think he looks way weaker than he did the week after the election. I don't think that there's... Is that right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I mean... Yeah. I would have expected... people to be much more in line. And maybe that changes January 20th, a month from now, he looks stronger than he does now. And he's just been focused on golfing and being the DJ at Mar-a-Lago. And who knows? I don't know. Maybe he gets in there and you see Iron Fist Trump appear, though.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I kind of don't expect that at this point, but I think that's certainly possible. On the just immigration rift as an example, I do think that The vulnerability is kind of the public stuff. So there might be a temptation to be like, oh, well, this is all, who cares? Let's not focus on their little petty fights.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
But to me, I think that is where you can create fissures and divide them is over this public stuff because the nativists are going to win the private fight. Elon already showed that he doesn't know what he's doing on this government shutdown thing. Elon doesn't even know the committee process. He wasn't even sure that there were two different chambers of Congress a month ago.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I'm not 100% sure he was. I think that Elon... is not going to win the internal fight. Now, Trump, I think, sided with them on this H-1B thing in an interview with the New York Post. So at the kind of top level, Elon is winning and access to Trump is winning. But who's going to be writing the immigration bill? Stephen Miller.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Who's going to be writing the rules that DHS puts in place as far as dealing with you know asylees or dealing with dreamers or whatever it is stephen miller right it's not going to be elon and his buddies like and so that like tension is going to bubble up on the public facing stuff at some point so And it's just really quick on the tax thing. They're only going to lose two votes in the House.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
They're going to end up having disagreements on the tax thing that are in the details, devils in the details on this stuff. That's not like about these big thematic things. It's going to be about, you know, like whether they can extend the SALT deduction, like the New York and California Republicans might decide to be hassle on that. Right. Like and Trump's not in there writing this bill anymore.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
You know, so they're not going to feel like they're opposing Trump if they're opposing certain elements of the tax bill. They're going to figure out how to make it work, you know, to pass the reconciliation rules. It's just like very challenging. Again, there's stuff that Vote and Miller can do, like separate from all this fighting, that's going to be very alarming and dangerous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I'm not saying this is a clown show that will end up doing nothing. But like the big legislative fights, I think are going to be a lot messier than I had maybe anticipated a couple weeks ago.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
But people were too complacent in the meeting where you were planning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
The last couple times I've seen Matt, he's been very brash and shit-talking. We're about the same age, and he supported Jeb initially, so I know Matt decently well. I definitely think he was a little bit chastened, and his wife was right next to him, though. The whole time I saw him and, you know, he said to sneak off to do an OAN hit, his new job. He's a competitor now, I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Let me just read that really quick, because you mentioned, so the new Congress constitutes Friday, they're going to have to elect a speaker. And so there are two fights coming even before he gets in, in addition to the confirmations, which will start before the inauguration as well. And boy, will we have wall-to-wall coverage for you of the Pete Hegseth confirmation. I've got big plans for that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Here we go. This was Trump on the debt ceiling. The extension of the debt ceiling by a previous Speaker of the House, he's talking about Kevin McCarthy, a good man and a friend of mine, from this past September of the Biden administration to June of the Trump administration will go down as one of the dumbest political decisions made in years. Kevin just can't catch a break.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Sarah's crushing him on panels. Matt Gaetz is owning him. Trump is just calling him a good friend, but then saying he made the dumbest political decision in years. Anyway, Trump writes, there's no reason to do it. Nothing was gained, all caps, and we got nothing for it. A major reason that McCarthy's speakership was lost.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
The Democrats must be forced to take a vote on this treacherous issue now during the Biden administration and not in June. They should be blamed for this potential disaster, not the Republicans. It's interesting that Trump sets the debt ceiling timeline in this bleat as June. Some experts have said that the debt ceiling would hit quite a bit before that, early here in 2025.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Regardless, yeah, I'm curious your big picture thoughts on, I mean, are the Republicans going to be able to extend the debt ceiling? Will the Democrats want to help them? Can Mike Johnson navigate this and stay speaker? Again, it's like much more challenging than I think it might have seemed from the perch of November 5th.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I did tease him about that. I guess the only newsworthy thing he said was kind of about how he wants the deportations to be able to start day one and how that impacted, you know, the importance of having an attorney general in their day one. Again, could be BS and bluster, but interesting thing to say.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I think they're worried about Chip Roy and them that like that there are enough House guys who are just out there on this that they can't do it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I have a Democrat that is a listener that has been texting me saying that he thinks that is a win for the Democrats to be like, let's extend it. Let's get rid of the debt ceiling forever. Let's just do it now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
So during all these conversations, I get invited by somebody that I had known to James O'Keefe, who you might know from Project Veritas. They do the undercover stuff. He had an after party. So it's like they have all the speakers and the blah, blah, blah. And then at the end, all the college kids go to try to get some MAGA lovemaking on. And they go to these after parties.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Yeah. As somebody who still has some of my vestigial Republican positions, I think the government is too big. I don't know. I think that having a debt ceiling is not actually that bad of a thing. And so you're not really going to win me over on the argument that the Democrats should grab this great opportunity to get rid of the debt ceiling forever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I think that the debt is going to be a problem coming here in the next few years or decade. So I'm not for that. My strategic Republican brain is on here, which is
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
make trump and chip roy work this out all right this is their problem now not the democrats problem they shouldn't bail them out of this problem but i do think that there will be democrats who have earnest views that like the debt limit is a problem and that we should take this opportunity to get rid of something that is that is stupid and potentially harmful and damaging to the country i understand that perspective that i don't share no and i i
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Democrats have been together. Say this about the Democrats. Maybe too much agreeableness, frankly, has been part of the reason that's got them here. But the Democrats were lockstep on the fight before the holiday over the government funding. So I expect that they'll continue to be lockstep. Jimmy Carter died yesterday after a long time in hospice.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I feel like so long that I feel like we've already done a Bill and Tim tribute to Jimmy Carter at one point. He wanted to stay alive to vote for Kamala. Unfortunately, that did not yield a positive result in Georgia, but that was something that he, I think it said to his son. So I'm just wondering if you have any, I didn't get to meet Jimmy Carter. I assume you did working for Quayle.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And this one was hosted by James O'Keefe. He was going to do a dance performance. But unfortunately, I was unable to stay for that because of the... Gary Lake confrontation started to get a little awkward in there. So I don't have any video of the James O'Keefe dance number that he did, though I've seen some of it on the internet if people are very curious. And yeah, I go in there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Frankly, most people either don't know me or are curious about my presence. And I was having a pleasant conversation with somebody, as pleasant as it can be in that audience. I think it's interesting to actually hear them off of...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Yeah, right. Anyway, different era. Yeah. A good and decent man. This is a different time. And I wish we could go back to having those kinds of disagreements. Carter's heterodox nature on social policy is something for the Democrats to think about. You know, in the end, you say he gets kind of bogged down by the left or the perceived elements of his policies being too far left.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
But to get elected as a Southern governor, I mean, he took a number of views on cultural issues that were you know, moderate or more accommodating towards the conservative side. And that's maybe something that Democrats are going to have to learn from a little bit going forward, in addition to his personal decency.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
You tweeted, I do want to include this from Ronald Reagan, speaking to Jimmy Carter in 81, Mr. President, I want our fellow citizens to know how much you did to carry on this tradition. You've shown we are a united people pledged to maintaining a political system, which guarantees individual liberty to a greater degree than any other.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
social media right and like try to get understand what they really think about things and carrie just kind of blindsides me like she sees me before i see her and she comes sprinting up to me like i'm you know i'm i'm prey on the savannah and like immediately starts at first she had her arms wide and i thought she was gonna hug me like i don't know why i just i had a
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
No, I don't see it. I don't see it. You did a great interview with Eric Edelman. People don't know we have a foreign policy podcast called Shield of the Republic. And Eric Edelman is one of the co-hosts. He was a part of this bipartisan commission analyzing the national defense strategy. You did an interview with him on Crystal Conversations.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
We'll put a link in the show notes that I just had a chance to list yesterday. The interview is from, I guess, about a week and a half ago now. But it's very much forward looking at all the different threats. I don't know, maybe if you have a one or two sentence takeaway from that interview. And then we can direct people to a longer conversation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
The nuclear weapon point was super interesting. And I just direct folks to listen to the whole conversation. My additional takeaway was just for an unstable president, for a chaos president, he is coming into a much, much more chaotic world than he came into in 2017. Totally. Totally.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And so, you know, I just think that that is a little bit underappreciated in the conversation, like that there are a lot of tough decisions, a lot of like interest to balance that, you know, sure, like there's always risks of things to prop up. But there was much more stability globally in 2017 than there is right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I haven't seen a lot of statements. I haven't seen a lot of statements on Trump's TikTok flip-flop. No, I haven't either. We'll keep an eye. I've got a little alert for Tom Cotton's press office. We'll see if anything comes out of there. All right, Bill, I do need to recommend to folks, I assume you did not go see A Complete Unknown, Timmy Chalamet as Bob Dylan?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
It's had this feeling like maybe she wants to bury the hatchet. It was an incorrect Malcolm Gladwell blink assessment of what was about to happen. And instead of hugging me, when I go to kind of touch her on her shoulder, she immediately says, don't fucking touch me and start screaming at me. You're a piece of shit over for like a minute and then turns around.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Okay, great. I was worried that I was blinded. I love Timmy. Long time Timmy fan. And so I was always going to love it. Our in-house culture editor, Sonny Bunch, not big on Timmy. And so I was worried that I was going to be biased. you know, have my own, own perspective, but my straight guy buddies that like Bob Dylan were all positive on it or all blown away.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I maybe generationally, maybe not, you know, if you knew really knew, knew Bob Dylan, I don't know. I guess I would say maybe your perspective might be different, but I thought he was just phenomenal. And it was an Edward Norton as Pete Seeger was really great. I would highly recommend it. I had feelings at times during it. And my main takeaway is I wish it was two hours longer.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
It's like, it stops in like 65. Like you don't even get to, one on the tracks and some of the other later, later Dylan stuff. So maybe we can get a sequel out of it. I don't know. So there you go. That's my holiday recommendation to people. A complete unknown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And Timmy nails it. It's so close. He's so close. His voice is so close. He gets close. It's not the same, but it's different enough that it's in the it's in the ballpark.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Yeah, Bill Kristol, everybody else. We'll be back tomorrow. Our plans for this week, we've got a pod tomorrow. We're bringing in all the faves this week. So you've got a pod tomorrow. We'll have a pod Thursday. We're going to take off New Year's Day, one more day, for you guys to enjoy your family or football or hangover or whatever it is that you want to do on New Year's Day.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
But other than that, we're going to be back with probably more than a full schedule, probably a double schedule, as Bill points out. There's going to be a shit ton happening in January, so... We'll be here for you. Bill will be back next Monday. Enjoy the last somewhat peaceful week. And we'll be seeing you back here tomorrow.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And then turns back around and comes back for more. Starts calling me a piece of shit again. Says I'm an alcoholic. She points at my drink. It was the only drink I'd had that night. She seemed a little, I don't know, in this new regime with the lawsuits going around. I don't know what she was, but her eye was definitely not looking square at me. I guess I'll say that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
2025 Foreign Policy Outlook, Musk versus MAGA. But our guest has implored me that the place to start today is MAGA versus Miller. And it is, of course, Bill Crystal. Bill, I hope you had a wonderful Hanukkah. And I turn it over to you. What were you curious for more info about my encounter with our old friend Carrie Lake in Phoenix a couple weeks ago?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
she had a wandering eye and she was just looking up at me, attacked my outfit and said, I didn't care about fentanyl. Mothers said I was a piece of shit over and over again. And I like, I'm just, I was just trying to deescalate. I teased her a little bit about, I was like, you had this new great job. It's the director of voice of America. Shouldn't you be happy? Why are you so mad at me?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And yeah, out of nowhere, Laura Loomer emerges and says to carry like, yeah, he is a piece of shit, but like, you know, let's chill out a little bit. So there you go. Laura Loomer, the racist conspiracist, de-escalated the attack.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
This is how societies work. I mean, there were elements of inside of all of us are elements inside of Matt Gates that he kept inside because he thought it would help him to advance his career, to act more like Jeb Bush or his dad, Don Gates or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
And, you know, he has been unleashed for his worst impulses have now been unleashed, you know, but it is important for people to, I think actually aren't quite as close to it, honestly, as we are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
You're correct that that is true, that there are people who shapeshifted or whose darker impulses were... you know, unleashed by the Trump era. I will say this though, that crowd though, it's like very mega, you know what I mean? Like there are select people, there's select people that have embraced it in various ways. I can, including frankly, Charlie Kirk, who runs the event too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
It was like a, basically a Sean Hannity college Republican, you know, that was just a hack. Like, so there's some people like that, including Charlie. Oh,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I said this article there's something we said Charlie gets some credit like it's hard to imagine a democratic group that four days before Christmas has 20,000 people flying somewhere to go gather for something like this like it's a real grassroots enthusiasm but the types of people that are drawn to it it is strange like I guess the other color that I didn't include in there is like one example is this guy that Washington Post did a big takeout on him he was the deep state marauder Ivan something he's wearing a shirt called retribution he has this black book I guess of people that should be targeted and
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I'd never heard of him. And I'm pretty deep in this world. Mainstream media outlet, like wrote a takeout on him about kind of how this is scary. Like there's this guy out there that has this list of people for the constitutional sheriffs and the incoming administration to target. And it is scary in a certain way, but then you meet him and it's like, this is an insane person.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Like this is a person that like Steve Bannon wouldn't want to hang out with. Like I was just standing there in a group and he comes up and starts ranting and About, like, really wild-eyed, crazy stuff. And then, like, he leaves, and I was like, who was that? And I was like, oh, you don't know Ivan, the deep state marauder? How old is he? He's probably 40. It's hard to tell.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
He didn't really look that great. Just like how we've said many times in the inverse, you can feel very comfortable at a freshman Democratic orientation these days, even if we disagree on the specifics of regulation policy. It's usually like high achieving, high sociability, normal people. It was a motley crew, to say the least. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Yeah, I think he's a pretty unique character. For people who do want to Google this deep state marauder, Ivan Raiklin, this is his last name, R-A-I-K-L-I-N. Bannon is savvy. A lot of these people are stupid, is really what it comes down to. A lot of them are stupid. And so Bannon, I think, in one way,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
you know you can't get into a man's head or soul and kind of who cares and who would want to be but there's a through line back to 2013 i think that he has a level of genuineness about certain aspects of the populism right about the economic populism but the nativism closing the borders
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
about going after the rich i mean see what you want about bannon bannon is like the only one out there at these events tucker i guess now too so maybe i'd throw them him in the same category who is like talking about we should tax the rich we should go after the billionaires we should go after the big bankers like that their populism is a little bit more a full spectrum right-wing populism in a way that's kind of scary right but it's also authentic it's not like the fake and so i do think that him
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Like there is this kind of puckish, you know, you know, troublemaking nature of like, sure, I'm going to go along with the Hunter Biden is a whatever Chinese agent or the voting machines. And so that's all very dangerous. I don't want to minimize it, but like, I do think that both are happening at the same time, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Like there is, I will go along with this fake performative populism in whatever I need to do to keep Trump happy while also actually having a real,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Yeah, correct. So I had interviewed Steve Bannon, and we talked about that a little bit. Both articles were put in the show notes if folks were taking a break. This was, I guess, the Friday before Christmas. And I interviewed him about kind of the future of MAGA, but the newsy bit that he talked about was...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
A little bit. I mean, so in two ways. So we spoke about this during the Bannon interview. And he was very blunt, just about like, he's been critical of Elon going back to 2018. I think there was a tweet going around about Elon bragging about how Bannon attacking him is the best PR he's gotten. like six years ago.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
So, so this is longstanding, you know, like this was simmering, you know, it was under the surface during the campaign, you know, they were allies of convenience, you know, during the campaign, Moscow was putting in 250 million or whatever he put in to the campaign, insane amount of money, you know, it weren't going to, fight somebody that's paying you, frankly, right? You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Hello and welcome to the Buller Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We are back. Hope everyone had a wonderful holiday or is still having a wonderful holiday. Much has happened since we talked last. We'll be getting to Timmy's Oscar-worthy Bob Dylan performance, of course, at the end. Jimmy Carter's passing the coming debt limit and speakership showdowns here next week.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
You don't bite the hand that feeds you. And so this was always under the surface. So there was no tension at the convention. I will say this, though. On stage... I could sense, I think I kind of referenced this in the article, that this wasn't lasting. There was not a coherent worldview being presented from the stage besides Trump adoration. It was going speaker back to back.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
It was like Ben Shapiro sounded like Paul Ryan 2012 if he thought that Donald Trump was a prophet as well, if he had those two views together. Then it was Bannon who was doing his... Medivist, quasi-fascist stuff. And then it was Ben Carson, who sounded like a Christian conservative. And then it was Tucker, who was even more insane than Bannon, sounded like a Marxist revolutionary. Don Jr.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
went up on stage after Bannon, and Bannon was attacking Mike Johnson for not passing the... spending bill but don jr didn't understand bannon's critique and so he was attacking the other 15 people who opposed mike johnson there was no coherent message and then there was some of the tech guys patrick bett david some he's not really a tech guy but business guy there were some of these other new maga
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
people who spoke. I guess I didn't see Elon Thiel or Andreessen or Sachs who are kind of like the core of that group when I think of them. But the fact that there are these disparities, I sensed that. I wouldn't have expected a week later they would have been at each other's throat on Twitter.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
I thought you were to be like, there were a million fights in the Reagan GOP.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
MAGA versus tech bro for people that don't really understand what Doge is. But Doge is a tech bro crypto coin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
From his perspective, Kash Patel is going to follow up on his plans to target the people that were in his book on the so-called enemies list. I think that's particularly newsworthy because there are a lot of senators, even John Fetterman, a lot of Republican senators acting like that's not going to happen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Trump seemed to side with Elon. So just really quick background for people who haven't paid as close attention. Essentially, this all started when Trump appointed an Indian-American immigrant to be an AI ambassador or czar.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Yeah, advisor. A low-key job. But this is a person who's been a big advocate for H-1B visas and all these sort of immigrant things. visas to bring workers, particularly to Silicon Valley, but also other industries. And this exploded in this like a paroxysm of like racism from the MAGA world, but also just people, they were feeling betrayed. Like, why is Trump bringing these people in?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Exploit the Rifts
Like being against visas such as this so that American workers can get jobs is at the core of what MAGA is. And then Elon and Vivek and all of them started defending this appointment. And saying you could reform H-1B, but we need to value immigration. And Vivek did some weird analogies about like Saved by the Bell, how Indians have a better culture in order to rationalize it. So anyway.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
That's a great question. We've invited Tom Tillis to come on the podcast. He's scared. So we'll see. Maybe Joe Pertikun can shake him down on the Hill. I don't expect him to say that because he's worried about a primary. I don't know. Maybe North Carolina, maybe the guy that was eating pizza in the back of the porn shop might primary him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And that's probably more, you know, kind of up the alley of Republican primary voters. We'll see. So Tom Tillis, indignant Tom Tillis. Yeah. It's an absurd hypothetical. You can't make it up. We got Susan Collins, his colleague in the Senate. In another story over the weekend, Trump fired 12, I believe, the inspectors general.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And he did not provide the 30-day notice that you're required to by law. I'd like to talk about that story more broadly. But here in the Republican gullibility section, here's Susan Collins' quote on this. I don't understand why one would fire individuals whose mission is to root out waste, fraud, and abuse. So this leaves a gap in what I know is a priority for President Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
You have two thoughts on this. One on the Susan Collins point, just briefly. The idea that it is a priority for President Trump to root out fraud... It's just, you called it beyond farcical. It flies in the face of everything that we know about Donald Trump. Donald Trump's whole career has been premised on leveraging fraud successfully. He lied about how much money he was worth in businesses.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
The apprentice is a farce. All of it, Trump water, Trump air. Trump's whole life has been a fraud. Trump loves fraud. What are you talking about? It's a priority for Donald Trump to root out fraud. That shows you know nothing about Donald Trump. It's like you were a baby who was just born yesterday and played straight into the United States Senate. The whole thing is just ridiculous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
The guy ran a fake university. You think it's a priority for him to root out fraud? What are you talking about, Susan Collins? Anyway, but as far as the inspectors general, there's a longer line of perniciousness here for me also.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
But that, you know, I guess everybody's decided not to care about because we're just going to not think about any long term damage that Donald Trump could potentially do if you're a Trump enabler. But like, what exactly is the rationale if a Democrat ever gets back in the White House? What exactly is the rationale for them to bring back Inspector General? Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I mean, like no president wants an inspector's general to your point. Like was the was the secretary of education ever excited to have a meeting with their inspector general? Nobody like the inspector general are there to represent the people and the interests of the people to make sure that our money is not being wasted or that there's not other illegality happening. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
that any other coverups that help, you know, the administration, you know, not be accountable for, you know, actions that are harmful to the citizenry. Like that is the whole point of the inspector general. So if they just blanket fire everybody that to me, it's like, well, okay. Our inspector general over now forever. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I love that he's at the Ludwig Boltzmann Institute for Research on the Consequences of War. That's a great quote. Great title. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Because who is going to be the president that's like, you know what, I really want to bring these guys back.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
But if they were, you pointed this out, they have opportunities to do things here. You wrote on social media over the weekend, Grassley also claims to be upset about this, Collins. The most straightforward pushback to these firings would be the Senate reasserting their power.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And McConnell, Grassley, Ernst, Collins, and Murkowski saying they won't vote to confirm nominees until they're satisfied there'll be oversight in the agencies. They could do that. They could. But are you holding your breath? I'm not. On the gullible Republicans list. So we have Tom Tillis, Susan Collins. I also need to shout out Congresswoman Maria Salazar down in Miami.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
She put out a very stern statement this morning. I'd like to read to you. She is urging Homeland Security. to protect, all caps, Cubans awaiting legal status adjustment through the Cuban Adjustment Act, and we must also protect the Venezuelans and Nicaraguans without a criminal record going through the asylum process. Don't penalize them for Biden's screw-ups.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Do I've got some bad news for you, Maria Salazar? These people don't it wasn't even that they weren't taking Trump literally or seriously. They weren't listening to Donald Trump at all. Apparently, like the idea that Stephen Miller is planning an immigration regime that has very lenient asylum processes for nonviolent Venezuelans or Nicaraguans. is ridiculous.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
They've completely shut down the CBV1 app. They're trying to get asylum down to zero. That is what they're trying to do. There was a whole kerfuffle during the campaign, Maria might not have heard, about the Haitians and those that were here on temporary protected status. This administration doesn't plan on taking care of those people. So I just don't know what they thought that they were getting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I don't think that they're pretending. I don't know. I think that this is cope and how you survive in a rising authoritarian world. Because, you know, there was an off the record briefing. I discussed this with Sam on the pod last week that he attended with a Republican senator, I believe, with the terms of that conversation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And the person seemed to not think Trump was going to do any of the bad things. You know, you keep adding, it's like, anytime it's like, well, wait, well, what about the mass deportations? Wait, what about the violent pardons? What about this? It's like, well, no, all of that stuff, no. You know, we're just going to, we're just going to get the tax cuts and doge and, you know, no wars.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I do think that they have convinced themselves, but we'll continue to monitor Global Republican Hour. It's another news this morning I want to talk about. There's an executive order Trump signed banning trans service members. I do think that there is something particularly gross about a draft dodger banning people who had volunteered for service.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
The executive order, I don't know if it's the same one or a separate one, also reinstates service members that were kicked out for not taking vaccines that were required by the military. So we're just doing straight political... effort to kick people out of the military if they're trans, bring people back who, you know, whatever, disobeyed orders. I'm open to that being something that is smart.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I never served in the military. I kind of will defer to Hertling and others on whether it is smart to reinstate those folks. It's possible, but it is pretty galling to do so at the same time that you're kicking people out who haven't done anything wrong and that you're doing so to appease like, racist Twitter users and Reddit posters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Like, we're going to take keyboard warriors and appease them, and we're going to kick out people that volunteered to serve in the country because they're transgender. That's pretty gross.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Yeah, a lot of this stuff is pretty hackneyed, so I think it remains to be seen. But it's pretty depressing, I will say. Have you ever wanted to learn more about wine but can't figure out where to start? Or when you do start, it just feels like too much? Our next partner, Naked Wines, has changed the game for learning about wine without having to take a whole class about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Use the bulwark for the code and password at nakedwines.com and get their incredible deal of six bottles for just $39.99. I got a round of Naked Wines sent to the house the other day. The fun part for me was you're getting to try out, you know, some different grapes, different varietals, things. I'm making some pasta for dinner. Try a little red, have one glass, see how you like it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
It's a little something to do. We all need little joys in our life, you know, little lane, yep. And the Naked Wines has been one for me. I've got four more bottles sitting down there, excited to try them all out. How do they do it? Naked Wines connects winemakers and wine drinkers directly, allowing for vineyard-to-your-door delivery at up to 60% off what you'd pay in the store.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
By cutting out the traditional retail middleman costs and markups, winemakers can pass those savings on to you without skimping on quality. Now is the time to join the Naked Wines community. Head to nakedwines.com slash the bulwark. Click enter voucher and put in my code the bulwark for both the code and password for six bottles of wine for just $39.99 with shipping included.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
That's $100 off your first six bottles at nakedwines.com slash the bulwark and use the code and password the bulwark for six bottles of wine for $39.99. I'm trying to ban... I'm not going to be able to ban it. I'm trying to limit from the podcast the whole bit. But what about the price of eggs going up? Because it's already a little cliche and all this. But it is telling.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
You know, here we are in week two. And the tangible actions that they have really been focused on are all of the culture war actions. Right? Like, for the first two weeks, they have... betrayed the notion of the Wall Street Journal types who are like, well, we're really going to focus on economic issues and economic growth. Maybe all that stuff's coming.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I guess they did do the announcement about the investment in AI, which then Elon Musk's shadow president said was fake immediately afterwards. But they're really dialing in on this. I think the contract is particularly sharp this morning because as we're taping this, it looks like stocks are down significantly. We had this Chinese AI application, DeepSeek, that launched, and it appears to be
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
a strong competitor, if not superior, to ChatGPT and the American AI apps. You can't trust anything that the Chinese government says, but apparently it was created in about a year more cheaply than the amount of money that we're investing in these apps. So it has had a negative impact across all the big tech stocks that have been pumping up the market.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
We're about to enter into some very serious times. And I think that the trans service member ban this morning, just in addition to being straight bigotry, just like the lack of focus on the serious matters before us, is in pretty stark relief this morning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Yeah, the Colombian trade war thing is also telling just kind of about How they plan to do propaganda in the second Trump term. This all happens in 24 hours. Pedro sends back the deportation flight because it was a military plane with people in shackles. He had accepted deportation flights under Biden. Trump then threatens the tariffs. Pedro threatens them back.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
His statement, people should go read. It is so bizarre. And it's so interesting. It's so un-American. And just like the tone of it, he like name checks Walt Whitman and Paul Simon. And it's a journey, the reciprocal tariff statement. I'll put it in the show notes for people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
But then behind the scenes, there's essentially an agreement, you know, as you said, like we're back to the status quo, like they'll accept the deportation flights, just not, you know, in the way that the Trump regime had wanted to do it. And Trump like declares victory, right? Like, oh, look, the tariff threat really worked. And all the MAGA media accounts are pushing that this was a victory.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
That is a thing that's going to be kind of hard to combat. He is going to be very good at creating for his people the sense that these victories have been achieved when nothing actually happened. And he really just put us at risk, honestly. And he's created additional risk and additional tension with an ally and got nothing out of it. But they're going to spin these things as propaganda victories.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
You wrote about the Columbia thing that there's a pretty clear pattern that Trump's picking fights with allies and signaling weakness to dictatorial adversaries right out of the box. And I guess that we did see this in the first term, you know, with him picking fights with Merkel and all that. The difference to me seems like I think they're ready to commit like capricious actions.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
attacks, you know, economically or otherwise, on our allies, and almost have like an itchy trigger finger to do so this time, which is a little different than the mean tweets.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And I also think, just like think about from an incentive structure standpoint, I was reading the Patriot Statement. And to me, it's just about going forward. Trump is not popular anywhere except for here and a handful of other countries, mostly with autocratic leaders. He's not popular in the countries with our democratic allies, either to the south of us or in Europe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And so if you're one of these leaders... I know that there'll be one side of the coin that says, well, Trump can bully them because they need America, and they need American products, and it helps their economy, and that's all true. But if you just have a couple of these leaders that are themselves just looking at the pure... political side of it, the optics, I get helps them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And unless there's actual pain, you know, up until the point that there's actual economic pain in the country, it helps them politically to be seen as a person standing up to Trump, right? It butchers them up a little bit domestically, he's not popular, makes you seem strong. And so like Petra statement was was pretty,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
strident and shine balance has been in mexico as well it's a bit of a powder keg like i think that this idea that all these guys are going to just bend over like like the republican senators have i think is incorrect and again it misunderstands the incentive structure of some of these leaders
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
You know, Frum made this point about Colombia that I think is worth sharing because there's always so much negativity about, oh, things are so terrible. This is why we tend to, the American people had to turn to Trump because of all of the crises in this country over the past two decades. But as Frum points out,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Rescuing Colombia from civil war, redirecting its economy from drugs to lawful commerce was a supreme achievement of the Bush and Obama administrations. The U.S.-Colombia free trade agreement was negotiated by Bush, signed by Obama, and has served both countries well. Now what? That's not right. We're blowing this up for what? Over nothing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Because Donald Trump wants to play tough guy in some reality TV show? It's preposterous. But it does feel like there's also a lack of particularly this time around Trump 2.0, a lack of desire for people to say things like from the saying this blatantly, like, no, actually, we have done some good things, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Like everybody has to just accept as basis that, well, you know, our institutions are so broken. And that's why we turned to Trump. You know what I mean? It does feel like there is a dearth of people making the case for the rules based order that got us here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I want to finish with the latest from Ukraine and Russia. We don't have t-shirts on the website, Bill, that say Bill and Tim are always right, because I have humility. And we've had some misses. Some of our colleagues do have those t-shirts if people want to invest in that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
But one thing that you were early on, and we've been talking about almost every week, is that there was almost a unified feeling, I think, on the right and the left, that if Trump won... that there was some backroom deal happening with Putin and that there would be a cessation of violence, and that they'd cut some sort of deal, and there'd be a friendly to Putin deal, and then...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
You know, who knows? Some things might change in a couple of years, but like that would come to pass. And you were skeptical of that. A couple of other people I've had on the pod. Michael Weiss was skeptical of that. And we had the head of the Council for Foreign and Defense Policy for Russia, Sergei Karganov, over the weekend, a prominent advisor to Lavrov and Putin, a serious advisor to them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
saying this, Russia must escalate in 2025 to force our American enemy to crawl away so Russia can finish off the Europeans. That's A, pretty alarming, and B, kind of in line with what we have been expecting, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I think lower than second-tier. Charles Kushner, straight out of jail, is who we sent.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Kind of subtle Russian mockery at times that maybe goes over Trump's head. Yeah, that could be. You know, instead of the brat-boresh mockery that Trump likes to give.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Yeah, and I think that there's some TBDs. I don't think that there are any cases where he has clearly gone the moderating direction, right? We haven't seen it yet on tariffs. We haven't really seen it yet on immigration. We're a little bit in the fog of war side on that right now. So I think that is to be determined.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
A lot of this damaging stuff, I don't have longer conversations this week about what's happening with NIH and funding. of, you know, kind of health studies, you know, all that stuff's temporary. So, you know, it's kind of like, well, let's see what happens in April. So there are opportunities, I guess, for him to moderate in various ways still, but we haven't seen it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Yeah. One last thing on just what you said on the Ukraine side to close the loop on that. I agree with you. Sure. If there are Republican security types who are in Trump's orbit who want to try to appeal to him and make the argument that it would be politically beneficial for him to be supportive of Ukraine, I'll take it. Whatever. That's fine. I do think it is also just wrong.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
It's gullible and incorrect. If you're doing it knowing this and hoping that you can get a good result, that's a noble effort. You should do that. They should continue to do that. But just objectively...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
spending time with you know going at that tp usa event at america fest like like watching and consuming you know kind of mega media like the not supporting ukraine is just like the anti among that base right now like among things that they care about like that is about at the top of the list and and it gets tied into everything right like in the fires it's like oh we're only spending x on the fires but we're giving y to ukraine i mean like
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
They're just trashing the support from Ukraine just across the board on any mega platform. It's even like one inch to the mega side of Fox. You know, I mean, I think that he is going to feel very handcuffed by that and like obligated to follow through on his plans to further abandon the Ukrainians. I mean, maybe the...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Senate can do things, maybe there are other ways to kind of delay all that, but I just think that's the state of affairs.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I agree. Well, pretty disheartening day across the board there, maybe by- I don't know. Who knows? One of these Mondays? Are you cheered up at least by the football results? I'm not cheered up by the football at all. It's horrible. It's like, you know, I mean, it's like Trump versus DeSantis in the Super Bowl down here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
They were division rivals of the Broncos. Oh, okay. Well, you have a legit. But why are people so anti-Kansas City? I just think they're sick of it. People are sick of it. And also just all the, and the attempted Taylor and Travis getting thrown into people's faces. I was watching some sports podcast and there was like a non, it was a non political sports podcast.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And the guy's like, I don't want to hear about Elon Musk or Travis Kelsey or Taylor Swift again. Like they're the only three people anybody talks about. And so I think that there's a little bit of that. And well, for anybody who's worried about all of these topics we went over and all of the negative affairs that are plaguing our nation, the minority leader, the democratic leader in the house, uh,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
had these words of solace. Presidents come and presidents go. Through it all, God is still on the throne. So there's that. Maybe that'll make some folks feel better. I've got this. I do have one other thing, Bill. I do have one good thing that I can leave people with. Timmy Chalamet's Bob Dylan covers on Saturday Night Live. He does three deep cuts. That was amazing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
That is what brings me solace. And so I'll take people out with one of Timmy's favorite Bob Dylan tracks. And hope you all enjoy that. Bill's gone next Monday on a little holiday. We'll see him in two weeks. Everybody else will be back here tomorrow. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Yeah. We are gathering today, as you note in the morning newsletter, on Holocaust Remembrance Day, so I think it's probably worth starting there. Shadow President Elon Musk zoomed in to a conference of the AFD. which is the German far-right party. At that gathering, he said he thinks that there's too much focused on past guilt, and we need to move beyond that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Yeah, and it is a good parallel, as you're saying, to what is kind of happening in America, right, with the woke lash about the the Elon message about, you know, not remembering so deeply all the stuff we had over the weekend that the as part of the DEI initiatives, the Air Force said that they're going to stop teaching about the Tuskegee Airmen. there's mass outrage about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
And they might be, you know, reinstating that, that lesson, but like the idea is there, the principle of let's try to bury, you know, some of the, some of the more unpleasant, I guess, Tuskegee Airmen isn't, isn't an unpleasant story. It's only an unpleasant story in the sense that at the time they're being discriminated against back home, they didn't have equal rights.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
They're not naming military bases in Germany after Nazi generals? Is that not happening over there? We're bringing it back. We're bringing back the Confederate general naming. We needed to make sure that all of the great Confederates are honored in this country. That is what America first patriots do, is honor the traitors.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
All right, I gave you the floor to rant about the mistreatment of the Jewish people by Elon Musk. I've got some Catholic complaints. J.D. Vance was on Face the Nation over the weekend. I want to hear him talking about the Catholic Church.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
This fucking guy has been a Catholic for like two seconds and he converts to the church. He's like, you know, I've got some complaints, all right? You're caring a little bit too much about the indigent and the poor. We need to focus on the real reasons why I became a Catholic, the real Catholic stuff, making people feel guilty.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
anti-trans sentiment what what he didn't even have to do it he had answered the question which is frankly maybe we'll see how these guys uh execute their their immigration raids i'm not so confident they're going to be very judicious but maybe they just have changed the rule to to be able to go into a church because there's some violent criminal they want and that's the only way
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
they know how to get the person. Who knows if that's going to happen, but that is a fair dodge as a politician.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Then on top of that, he's got to be like, I'm just, as somebody who's been a Catholic since last Tuesday, I am just heartbroken that these bishops that gave their life to the church care at all about the poor immigrants that we're planning on putting on planes and shackles back to their country. Any other thoughts on that, Bill? Well, I leave the Catholics to you, and you leave the Jews to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
You had a little meditation on this for Holocaust Remembrance Day today. I'd like for you to share your thoughts on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Thank you, Drill. It can't be anti-Catholic bigotry because he became a Catholic. It's kind of like in Seinfeld where the guy becomes a dentist for the jokes. Does he become a dentist for the jokes or become a Jew for the jokes? I forget the story. You are an anti-dentite. It's one of those situations, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I've become a Catholic so that I can slander the Catholics and do so with impunity without people calling me a bigot. So there's our vice president. Unfortunately, I have one more clip from him I'd like to play. He was asked about the pardons. You might remember. It was only like two weeks ago. It was like one week after he became a Catholic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
He was on TV and he said that obviously, obviously it was already used, that they would not be pardoning people that violently attacked the police. Obviously that was wrong. And his daddy made a different decision a couple of days later. Here's JD addressing that with CBS Face Nation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I keep waiting for the evidence of the Black Lives Matter protesters that attacked cops and killed people and weren't prosecuted for that. This keeps coming up in these interviews, but I never actually they never actually say the name of a person who got off. So I'm still waiting to hear that. But, you know, Bill, the pardon power isn't for people. That's perfect. You know, so beating a cop.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It's Monday, January 27th. Trump's been president again for about a week now. Feels longer. And I'm here today with Bill Kristol.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
There are like eight levels of dishonesty advances. Speaking of which, on this topic, I've got a segment. We don't have theme music for it yet. I don't know if it's going to be a permanent segment. But over the weekend, I was struck by something. It was in addition to J.D. I was talking about how I was talking to about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
I was like, I don't understand why I knew that Trump was going to pardon the violent cop beaters, but his own vice president didn't. These guys have to kind of suspend disbelief about the nature of Donald Trump in order to continue to exist. It's something we saw the first time around, but we're really seeing it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
in spades this time and so i've got three examples of gullible republicans uh who seem to have been fooled by the nature of the man that they've made the president and the first one is also on this topic of january 6th tom tillis senator from north carolina you can just hear the indignation in his voice when we play this he is indignant that people are asking pam bondy
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
to respond to a hypothetical about the possibility that Donald Trump might pardon a violent protester. This was just a few days before Donald Trump did pardon the violent protesters. Let's listen to indignant Tom Tillis.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Trump Loves Fraud
An absurd and unfair hypothetical. Never would Donald Trump pardon somebody that attacked a cop, Tom Tillis says, two days before Donald Trump. He pardons the cop eaters. Exactly what Tillis said he wouldn't do. What do you think, Bill? What's happening in this man's brain? And never would he appoint to be director of the FBI.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
My answer is going to be like, I don't know and don't care. Nobody knows. We don't have a crystal ball. And nobody asked Navalny every time he said something that Putin did something was wrong. Were they like, Alexei, do you think this will have an impact at the polls when you're criticizing Putin's corruption? Putin's corruption is bad for the sake of it being bad. Same with Orban.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
So that's our schedule to Bill. Bill, I usually start these by saying, how are you doing? And I'm not really asking how you're doing when I say that. That's just kind of a nicety. But I'm curious how you're doing, genuinely.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Same with Lukashenko and same with Donald Trump. And hopefully we don't take the slide all the way down to that style authoritarianism. But I do kind of resent this notion that every – that if you took a principled opposition to something and then the voters voted – on some other issue or based on some other priorities, and that opposition did not have value. I do reject that completely.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I like you have some grandkids there that are at least keeping you grounded. Yeah, I'm sorry about that in the background.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
The sounds of the children are the only thing giving me a little joy. We have to do some news. I don't really want to, but I'm out of the feelings and into the news. You mentioned the pardons. President Biden issued preemptive pardons for Mark Milley, Anthony Fauci, members of the January 6th committee, and the cops who testified before the committee.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
They write, the issuance of these pardons should not be mistaken as acknowledgement that any individual engaged in any wrongdoing, nor should acceptance be misconstrued as an admission of guilt for any offense. I don't know. Just in the... Interesting candor, and I guess daily listeners of the pod will know this. Initially, I was for this after the election. It seemed like the right thing to do.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Increasingly, I was persuaded against it by a couple of people who were on the list for getting preemptive pardons. Because, you know, you can say that the issuance should not be mistaken as an acknowledgement of wrongdoing, but... Even still, tacitly, it kind of is. And in addition, you know, there is the precedent. And, you know, I don't know. We might still have a rule of law in 2029.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I would like to be open to the possibility that there's still a rule of law in this country in 2029. And if some of Donald Trump's henchmen commit crimes, that they might have to be held to account for them. I don't have much hope that Donald Trump will be held to account. But, you know, maybe there is still hope that some of the people around him are. So I fall down.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I'm being opposed to this after consideration, but I do think it's a tough call. I don't know what you think.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
We're going to get to the January 6th, folks. But one more Biden news this morning. Usually we're disappointed. That's probably a little bit understating where I am on this topic. Dr. Jill Biden and President Biden will host a tea and coffee reception in the Blue Room this morning. It's probably happening as we speak right now, actually, with the Trumps before all four ride to the U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Capitol together for the inauguration. Gag me. Was the tea and crumpets necessary? I don't think it was. I don't know. Some people might disagree with that. It feels to me it's not the biggest deal in the world, but it's a no for me, I guess, as Randy Jackson would say.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Yeah, I don't know. You can't really sell me on I'm an institutionalist when we're doing smiley photos with Donald Trump at the White House and having tea. And I'm not an institutionalist when I'm adding amendments to the Constitution randomly a couple days before the election. That just isn't a match for me. You kind of need both or neither. I would be on the side of neither.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
You could sell me on both, but the either or is not working for me. To Trump's moves. So he had a rally yesterday. And as part of my pledge, we're not playing any audio from that because people just don't need that in their life today. He had a rally at the, what are they calling it? It was the MCI Center, the Verizon Center, where the Wizards play. Capital One Arena now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
And he talked about how he plans to pardon Trump. The hostages today is what he called them and how that was going to make people very happy. Elon got to speak. The vice presidential elect did not. I thought that was interesting. It was, you know, Trump-y. It was garish and absurd. You know, Stephen Miller was doing some... racially motivated attacks on people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
It wasn't quite at Madison Square Garden level, but again, it is in sharp contrast with the tea this morning, I guess, that Trump decided to have a non-traditional pre-inauguration rally where he talked about releasing the people that savaged cops at the Capitol. Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
He was unbelievable. And the Super Bowl is in New Orleans, so maybe you can come back down to Louisiana.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
They're taking on risk, the individual people that buy the Bitcoins. I mean, who knows? The Trump Bitcoin could go to the moon and it could just go up, up, up forever. You know, what the hell? The rules of capitalist economics seem to not be applying these days. But, you know, they're at least still taking on risk, right? Like the plutocrats are not.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
It's the exact opposite. not only is there not a pretense of that public mindedness, they're actively hostile to it. Mark Andreessen said this, like the VC who is in Trump's inner circle has been, according to the Washington Post, been interviewing people for jobs, who has tons of interest in crypto and AI, was a seed donor to the free press.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I would hope so. I'm still in the market for tickets, so we'll see how that goes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Did notice the free press got a nice exclusive leak from the Trump administration. I don't know if Mark Andreessen was involved in that, but yeah, Like he said recently that he was, I don't know exactly the words, but resentful towards this notion that like you have to make all this money and then to be good in liberal society and you have to give it all away.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
He was attacking the exact thing that you're talking about, like this, this other, you know, this era of capitalism. exceptionally wealthy, the Rockefellers, the Carnegies, etc., that made all this wealth for themselves, but then also redistributed it back in various other pursuits.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
And so, again, it's just like, you can not like the Rockefellers and have plenty of complaints about that, but it does seem better than the alternative, which is making ungodly sums of money and then being resentful when being told that you might have some obligation back to the people in your society.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I would have gladly done this whole pod with Jaden and we could have done film analysis. But unfortunately, that is not our fate. No, he was brilliant. He looked brilliant. The football was brilliant all weekend. I went to a concert last night. So if I don't seem like I'm at 100% this morning, I'm trying to get endorphins and distractions from anywhere I can in this moment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I do think it's possible. And I do think that there will be some backlash. I can sometimes worry about the nature of the backlash. And I think a lot of it will also depend on the results. Good news is I'm not expecting a lot of great results from the Donald Trump administration. We've got these executive orders.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
We're going to have a lot of time to kind of sip through all of them and discuss the impact. There's going to be, I guess, potentially, according to reports... That question of emergency on the border, ending all kinds of DEI programs within the government, ending any efforts to accommodate people who have a different gender identity than the one that they were born with, those will be eliminated.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
We've already mentioned the pardoning of the people that beat the cops at the Capitol on Donald Trump's behalf and potentially the TikTok extension. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on any of those in particular or big picture. It feels almost silly at this point to be like, conservatives used to be against executive fiat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
And I think this is probably something that has been really pernicious throughout this century. I mean, Bush... Bush, too, did more on executive orders than previous presidents had, at least the recent previous presidents. Obama then did more than him, and then Trump, and obviously Biden with student loans, etc.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
This has been kind of an ever-escalating thing that I oppose, but I don't know at this point how to roll it back. Any big-picture thoughts on the executive orders or any of the individual items?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I agree with that. I think another potential thing, we'll kind of see how it plays out, is there's now going to be a big gap between the shock and awe and when they actually do anything. It's going to take Congress a long time to do stuff, and so this is why generally people, in addition to the fact that
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Some presidents cared about the limits on executive power and had legal experts and people within the government reviewing these sorts of things before they got announced. As I traditionally said, there weren't 200 of them or however many that ended up being on Inauguration Day. But also just politically speaking –
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
You kind of roll them out over the course of a month or two while your agenda gets moving through Congress. And so I think that's also something to monitor. One other thing, Senator Ron Johnson told reporters this morning that Trump is talking of tariff revenue of as much as $1 trillion today. Just obviously preposterous on its face. That would be about a 25% tariff on all imports.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Johnson says he's trying to talk Trump out of it, but doesn't know what he'll decide. So that's another thing to monitor coming down the pike.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I agree. All right. I'm going to leave us with this. We are about an hour and a half away from Donald Trump putting his hand on the Bible as we tape. And we had a little bit of news last night from country music singer Lee Greenwood about what Bible Trump will be using. Let's take a listen to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
It's turtles all the way down, Bill. It's grift all the way down. We are, we don't know, maybe putting our hand on the God bless the USA Bible, which you can just get if you go to Lee Greenwood's website. And, you know, only a little bit of a cut of that is going to go to the president-elect. And only 4,000 of these bad boys. So get them while they're hot.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Yeah, so we got to get to the news. I'm going to do everybody a favor. We're not going to play his voice today. So that's my little gift to everybody. So we're not going to play clips from him at the rally yesterday. But there was one thing that happened over the weekend that's kind of tied to my feelings of despair and nihilism about all of this. It was the coin. Trump minted a coin on Friday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
No, this is an appropriately alarming and dour final note from you, Bill Kristol. I had a text. I'm in New York. I'm going to be on MSNBC today if people really want to suffer and do self-harm and watch me talk about it on the news. And so I don't have my usual setups. My texts are popping up here on my computer.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
And as you are giving that alarming close to this podcast, I received a text from a friend that said, Trump getting inaugurated on MLK Day. We are a failure. I can't really do much better than that. So I'm going to leave it there. Everybody else, come hang out with us if you want post-inauguration if you're desperate for like-minded folk on YouTube or on Substack.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Otherwise, we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulldog Podcast. Thanks to Bill Kristol. We'll see you all then.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
It is, I guess, a Bitcoin, but it's on the Solana website. crypto exchange. I'm sure you're very familiar with all of this, Bill, as a big investor. Here's the thing about it. It is the biggest scam in the history of the presidency. People can't process that, really. He does the thing where it's like, get the Trump digital baseball card or get the Trump mug or the Trump shoes. Those are all scams.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
He's a con artist. But this one, this is an actual investment vehicle. People put real money into this. Some people could lose real money. The coin went from $44 to $60 something, back down to $44. So if you had bought at $60 and then panicked and sold, real people could have lost tens of thousands of dollars. They might eventually, I would think, because...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
you know there's no value here i i'm not i'm not an economist but generally i don't understand why the trump coin has the same net worth as like united airlines or something right now so you know the whole thing is is preposterous but it's real money it's a real scam people can bribe him through it i don't know if they are it's not an accusation but people could right because they trump in the organization that launched this coin which is all the trump associates control 80 percent of it
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
So, you know, if it goes up X amount, they control 80% of the profits. I think that Axios estimated $25 billion or something, potential profits over the weekend. $25 billion. They made Spiro Agnew resign over $10 grand, Bill.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Yeah, we're going to have a little more on the Bibles. And I'm happy to do a private briefing with Susan on the blockchain, how crypto is sold on the blockchain and how there are different exchanges. I'm pretty basic on this, but I think I could get people to level one. Needless to say, and I think that the the key element here is just like how much money went into it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
And you just don't know, like you can't track it. Like somebody when it, right when it launched, somebody put in a million and it's like, was that someone that was in the right place at the right time? Or did they get tipped off? Or did they, and just like, if you're the Saudis or you, you know what I mean? Just think about the opportunities you have to put money right into his pocket.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
But here's the thing. This is how it relates to my feelings. It worked. It's working. The guy at Barstool, Dave Portnoy, said that when he saw the big rush on this, he put in 500K. Then the Trump coin cashed out a million the next day. He just made a half million last night just doing nothing, gambling on this worthless fake coin. And it brought to mind a couple things for me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
There's a guy, Ben Dominich, who wrote for The Federalist, conservative writer, was originally never Trump with us, ended up going full Trump. He was cheerleading for Trump on Fox last night. But he wrote something in 2016 that was about LOL, nothing matters, Republicans. And he wrote this. He said, LOL, nothing matters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Republicans realize the apocalyptic predictions are happening no matter what white paper you publish and that the lights will go down in the West and will not be relit in their lifetimes. That was his rationale for just saying, ah, fuck it. Just go along with this. Like if Trump can win, then nothing matters. That was eight years ago. Trump's now won twice.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
You wrote me over the weekend when I asked what we were going to talk about. And I said, maybe we should just talk about the Romans instead. And you sent me this quote from Tacitus. For myself, the more I reflect on events, recent or remote, the more I am haunted by the sense of a mockery in human affairs. I was with somebody last night who's younger than me. And they were talking about...
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Just how that like they have the sense of like, none of this matters. Nothing matters. I don't care about this. Why should I be concerned? I think that this is pervasive right now. And it is giving me a sense of despair that I think is going to have an effect like broadly on the culture. A sense that just why don't we all just kind of get in on the con at this point? What do you think about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
But this is the thing with the ERA. Actually, I mean, it is preposterous. But to your point, it speaks exactly to this sense. It's like, well, fuck it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
If nothing matters, if the rule of law doesn't matter, if this guy can get back into the White House after being indicted four times on different crimes and convicted, I guess he's just going to kind of wave his hand and say that the TikTok ban, for example, which was passed by overwhelming bipartisan legislation in Congress, signed by the president, affirmed by the Supreme Court unanimously, and he can just come in and be like, delayed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is the day of the second Trump inauguration. Like most of you, I'd rather be anywhere other than here, but we're destined to be here right now. Might as well slog through it together. It's Monday, so I've got Bill Kristol, of course. A few programming notes real quick.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
You know, you can just wave a wand and say delayed. And then why can't Joe Biden just wave a wand and say we have a new amendment to the Constitution? It becomes to me like this as somebody who does care about this stuff. I begin to understand that it becomes rational. to start to act as if there's no point in abiding by these shared agreements that we have had.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
You're going to be seeing the pictures of what's happening today in the same building where he incited a mob. I don't know. Make the case to believe in something, Bill. That's where I'm at here this morning. I want you to make the case to me that I need to believe that any of this matters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
We're going to seize the means of content production, Bill. That is true conservatism. We're seizing the means of content production and short-form video.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I hope for people listening to understand that I was, this is kind of a rhetorical exercise with you. I did write recently about not letting Donald Trump take my soul. And I'm committed to that, to not fully descending into complete Ben Dominic level nihilism, or maybe kind of close to tacitus, I guess. I mean, I guess laughing at the mockery of affairs, I might still do.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
But I do think it's still important to look at what has happened today and Believe it can be defeated and believe that there is some value in maintaining the system that we've built. But, you know, to your point, you wrote about this, I guess it was the Friday pod, no matter what, like the era that kind of undergirded this, you know, this Western based rules based order. is kind of over.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
Me and Bill are taping this at about 9.30 Eastern and are going to be covering everything from the Trump coin on Friday night through the developments this morning. This afternoon, we'll have a post-inauguration live stream. You'll be able to get that on Substack or YouTube. When that is finished tomorrow, we'll have on a favorite of the pod to sort through the wreckage.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
That's why I wanted to tie it back to the dominant setting. That's kind of right. Hopefully it will persist in a different form, but the order that got us to here in the post-war order to now does feel basically over, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Resist the Nihilism
I'm glad you brought this up. I do agree. Also, there's value in saying that things are wrong for saying that things are wrong's sake. This is the thing that my one pundit resolution for the next two years is when I go on one of these fucking shows and somebody's like, well, do you think that... do you think it'll have an impact to criticize Trump on this thing or that thing?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
You should be angry. And the admires is a good word because you sense this in the run the interview that there is like a you got to hand it to him kind of thing. Like I ran for president. They rejected me like Trump must be doing something that I wish I could have done. And that is the thing that is the most dispiriting about all of it and a little bit enraging.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It's like if good old-fashioned Mormon church-going, milk-drinking, follow-the-rules Mitt Romney cannot just internalize that sometimes people are rewarded for doing things that are wrong, which is the basic moral of... Like every children's book. I'm sure plenty of Mormon texts. Plenty of adult books. Yeah, plenty of adult books.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And you got to hand it to him now and just say, all right, well, Trump got this one right because he more successfully preyed on people's grievances and bigotries than I did. It makes me upset. Also, just one last thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Hold down the fort. There is enough news. The theme of the show today is going to be pre-capitulation and people's just total unwillingness to buck up for the fight ahead of us. It begins with our friends at ABC News. The backstory on this, for people who haven't watched it closely, is I guess George Stephanopoulos
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
A great deal. Here's one more. Joe Biden posted this over the weekend. I have no idea why. He wrote this. I pray to God that the president-elect throws away Project 2025. I think it would be an economic disaster. I believe the only way for a president to lead America is to lead all of America. Again, what is this? What is this? Why are we doing this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Why are you doing a smiling picture with Donald Trump? Why are you doing a post about how you hope that he will throw away Project 2025? He's appointed all the people that did Project 2025 to the administration. And then you're singling out the economic part of it. What are you even talking about? It's just this fake, nicey-nicey shit with Trump is endemic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It is like from the Disney people to the sitting president to Romney. They're all doing this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Oh, we pray. Maybe Donald Trump will turn the corner. Year 9. He'll throw away Project... What are you talking about?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It does feel that way. You talked on the conversations with Bill Kristol with Jack Goldsmith, who is over at Lawfare and a Harvard professor who knows this stuff well. I'm just going to cop to the fact that I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. It's on my list while I'm in between trips to the bathroom tonight. But did Jack have any insight on that front?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
He talked about how Trump was found liable for rape and technically he was adjudicated as for sexual assault in a civil suit. And the judge in rendering the verdict on that did essentially say, did say that colloquially what we're talking about here is rape. The judge said that during the judge's verdict, but it was not technically the case, you know, based on the actual verdict.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Excited to listen to that. We'll put a link in the show notes. From big events to silly moments you capture every day, doesn't it sometimes feel like all your favorite photos are just stuck on your camera roll? Wouldn't it be great to have an easy way to share and enjoy them with friends and family? That's where Aura comes in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
I was posting them on Instagram for a while that, you know, now that I'm a content creator, my Instagram has been overtaken by my takes. And so, you know, you need a place to go. You need a place to spend the good ones, the cute pictures of my daughter, you know, the fun pictures with my pals, because I still get to have fun from time to time. And the aura frame is
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
is a nice way both to ensure that those pictures exist somewhere outside of my pocket and as a gift for a friend or loved one who wants to keep tabs on what's going on in my non-podcast related life. So save on the perfect gift by visiting oraframes.com to get 35% off Aura's best-selling Carver mat frames by using promo code BULWARK at checkout. That's A-U-R-A, frames.com, promo code BULWARK.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. I want to go and talk about a couple of news items or thoughts from the progressive wing of the Democratic Party and try to position Woke Bill Kristol as far left as possible just to prove all of your enemies right. Here's Bernie this morning on The Morning Show.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Huge. Sometimes I just, you know, I was watching the clip and I was like, you got to hand it to Bernie. I don't know. I want to hear what Bill Kristol thinks about that. It's hard to argue with that right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
So Trump sued ABC over this and ABC settled this defamation lawsuit for $15 million. And I just think this is going to have real ramifications. And I guess we'll just start there with your opening thoughts on that bill. It's really terrible.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
besides getting you and Bernie on the record as being on the same side on this one, was I'm sympathetic to the fact that this is actually a more fruitful ground for Democrats and all of us that are trying to challenge this incoming administration than some of this other stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
The brazenness in which they're doing this, just tying this back to the whole Romney thing about the middle class and the guy you're talking about, it's like... It didn't stick with Trump in the first term in any way that he had all these Goldman Sachs people around him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
But I feel like it's just so much more brazen this time that it feels like something that eventually people are going to be like, this is out of control.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yo, there's so much of our info out there on the internet these days. Something that we've been talking about. It's coming up in conversations I'm having with people who I think are taking additional cautionary steps in the wake of our new regime. So one product I've been telling them about, and I've even had a few gift subscriptions to give away, is DeleteMe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
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The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me, now at a special discount for our listeners and their loved ones. Today, get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and use promo code bulwark at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
That is joindeleteme.com slash bulwark code bulwark. AOC on the younger end of the spectrum. There's a lot of discussion right now about how she is trying to get a spot on the oversight committee and that there should be Democratic turnover. And the other congressman that wants that gavel is Jerry Connolly, more of an old line Democrat type.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Do you have any grand thoughts on whether the Democrats should be turning over gavels to AOC and be more mindful of generational change on the Hill?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, I'm of mixed views. On the one hand, I strongly believe that the Democrats on the Hill have been too timid over the last eight or nine years and that they should be much more aggressive in oversight and tactics.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And this is like the question that I ask every Democratic congressman that wants to come on this podcast is, you know, are you going to work with Mike Johnson and bail them out when they can't fund the government? Are you going to, you know, push investigations? I just think that they've been too timid. in particular on the Hill during the Trump era. And so will AOC be more, you know, aggressive?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Will she be better at getting attention for the corruption stuff that we've just been talking about? Absolutely. She also is, you know, she lets loose, which I like. But sometimes she lets a little too loose, you know. And if you follow her social media feeds, I mean, there's stuff that she does.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
I just don't think that gets that much attention now that I think would get a lot of attention if she was, you know, running this committee or running for president as far as, you know, kind of really.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
eye rolly type identity politics type stuff that she does some of her messaging around the luigi united health care thing was a little you know makes me cringe a little bit that's the kind of balance right i don't know you know but maybe you have to take the good with the bad and something like this but i do think that particularly for the oversight thing i'm not as unlike you i'm not as hostile to it as as one might think i agree with the way you put it
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, I've got some issues about that head to head, but we can do a 2028 hot stove another time. All right. Well, do you have any thoughts on the drones? People are concerned. People are seeing stars. Larry Hogan saw Orion's belt and thought it was a drone.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Twitter that saw lots of lights over the Capitol is very concerned. It was just those planes landing at Reagan. So I don't know. Do you have any worries? Do you have any friends on the inside that can provide any state secrets to our listeners?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
I think it's literally that, but I'm open to aliens. You know, it's been a weird month. So let's mix things up. I don't know. We might welcome them as liberators. We'll see. Bill Crystal, thank you so much for doing this on Sunday afternoon for me. We will wait. I won't see you next week. We'll be on a holiday next week. We'll see you in two weeks for the Borg podcast. Enjoy the holidays.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Borg podcast. I hope.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, it was Deborah O'Connell, the Disney executive who directly oversees ABC News, dined with Suzy Wiles in Palm Beach last Monday. To me, this is just... And we talked a little bit about this with Ann Applebaum on Friday. Just another example of these big... corporations deciding that it's just not worth it to draw any additional attention onto ourselves. We know that Trump is capricious.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
We know that he's vengeful. So let's try to just survive the four years. We'll tuck our tail between our legs. We'll mind our P's and Q's. A, there's no evidence that this is going to work. And in a world where you have corporate control over some of these media institutions like this, as you said, the chilling effect element of this is really staggering right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
You can't not assume that people in private conversations who go and speak about this stuff on the media and go and speak about Trump, especially people that aren't wealthy, that don't have the resources of Disney, might be like, it's just not worth it. you know, leveling criticism if it's going to bankrupt me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Several have committed a billion. Zuckerberg, others, Benioff. It's usually like the protection racket element of this, right? And it just ties all together. Like, Disney was going to win this case. And so to do it so ostentatiously, like, oh, we're going to contribute to your presidential library, sir. Let us go down on our notice, kiss the ring.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And can we contribute an additional wing to your palace that honors you? Can we put a statue? The whole thing is preposterous. And just back to the original point, just because I want to get it exactly right on what Judge Kaplan said about the rape. He said this. The finding that Ms.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Carroll failed to prove that she was raped within the meaning of New York penal law does not mean that she failed to prove that Mr. Trump raped her, as many people commonly understand the word rape. So again, like Stephanopoulos, I think, runs afoul of this by using adjudicate it. But it's a very fine line. And the standard, as you mentioned, for these public figures was
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
to defame in America it's very different in Britain and other places but like in America the standard of defamation is so high it's like really hard to imagine that they would have lost this and so like the manner in which they're doing it is just really horrible incidentally if they had lost they would have lost
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Very conspicuous as the Republicans against Trump Twitter feed that posted, I prefer to live in a country where the government fears the free press, not where the press fears the government. I thought that was really well put. Yeah. Because the first part of that is also an important category. Now that is another downstream effect of this Trump win is that the
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Republicans, and frankly not just Republicans, you're seeing this from Eric Adams, and I'm sure you'll start to see this from some Democrats. Now, because of the world in which we live, and because of the fragmentation of the media environment, the essential view of politicians now, I think, going forward is going to be, just ride out the storm. Who cares about this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Like, how much could it hurt me for the media to write about this? I think we're seeing this right now with Hegseth as a prime example of the cabinet officials. Any kind of media firestorm of this nature previously would have, would have led to just the quiet stepping down of the, of the nominee and replacement with somebody else.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It is, um, I think dangerous to kind of the, the short medium term of our body politic. If you are in a place where both of those things are true, the politicians have stopped being worried that they're going to be held accountable and the press who ostensibly exists to hold accountable, uh, is now panicked that they'll be targeted. And so they're not even going to do their job.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Yeah, and the bad news came right on the heels of the announcement that they want to make standard time permanent. So it was a really ominous 24 hours. Where are you on that? Oh, permanent daylight saving. It's my number one issue. Did you lose or for you? We did a whole YouTube video on this, which you can watch. But since then, I saw a graphic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Hello and welcome to Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday when you're listening to this. So we have Bill Kristol. It is Sunday and we're taping it. I'm hangry. I'm quite hungry, actually. I haven't been able to eat all day. I've got to clean out my whole system because I have one of those middle-aged men procedures tomorrow. And so, you know, if J.D.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And it's like in June now with permanent standard time, the sun will be coming up at 4.15 a.m., This is insane. Nobody wants this. We like our evening sun. Okay, I'm going to move forward. While I'm hangry, while I'm upset about daylight saving and ABC and Deborah O'Connell, Mitt Romney was on State of the Union this morning. God love him. I just kind of want to strangle him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
I mean, I want to strangle him like you want to strangle a loved one, though. Just like, why? Let's just listen. Let's listen to Mitt and Jake Tapper.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
So this is obviously enraging because it was the premise of him not endorsing during the campaign was that he wanted to have an impact on the Republican Party going forward. Now he's already conceded that that's over because Donald Trump won. I don't really know that Mitt's, given what we know about the election at this point, that Mitt's endorsement would have mattered one way or the other.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
That said, couldn't hurt. And the thing that bugs me the most about this, though... It's just going back to this capitulation. It's like, okay, well, it is what it is. I'm backing off my comments about how disgusted and horrified I am about Donald Trump and J.D. Vance. And even though I'm leaving the Senate now, I'm going to make nice.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And we're going to, you know, hopefully, you know, these are smart guys. I'm going to be able to figure out, like, what purpose is served by this? What is the point of this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
It's just this false hope, right? Like on the one hand, the false hope annoys me, like this idea that, oh, we're going to be able to work with these guys. And, you know, who knows? It's better not to, you know, ruffle feathers. So let's just kind of see how it plays out. Like that part is annoying to me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
In particular, because I just, I don't think that's going to be true, but more it completely, I kind of invalidates all the arguments against Trump and Vance that he made. He made these deep moral and ethical arguments about Donald Trump, the man about the way that JD Vance has humiliated himself about how the illiberalness of their ideology is wrong and,
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Vance starts shooting at the drones or some other nominee is creeped on a woman for the cabinet and like that all gets announced Monday morning, you'll have to wait for my fresh take on Tuesday. So, me and Bill. Bill and I are both working through ailments for you on a Monday. How are you doing, Bill? I'm doing fine. Thanks, Tim. Good luck with everything tomorrow. I'm going to be fine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And like to just turn around then and be like, well, you know, they won. So we'll see how it goes. It makes people wonder, like, well, were you genuine before about when you made those arguments? Because how does A meet B? You know, and when you say what you want about Liz Cheney, when you see her doing interviews now. she's not backing off anything that she said before.
The Bulwark Podcast
Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
And you can throw in a sentence at the end that's like, well, I hope to be wrong. I hope to be wrong. Whatever. Great. I hope to be wrong. We're not wrong, though. And we've already been proven right once. We're going to be proven right again. And so why? It almost plays into their hands by saying, see, these guys didn't even believe it. It was just rhetoric. It was just political rhetoric.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Another news item I really want to spend some time on is a gentleman by the name of Darren Beatty. I don't know which one it is. It doesn't really matter. He's the new acting Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy. I want to go through the hit list here on Beatty, and then we'll kind of tie it back to the point you're making. Beatty loves to tell people to take a knee.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I want to see if you can notice any trend here. Well... Here's our new acting Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy. Tim Scott needs to learn his place and take a knee to MAGA. Black Lives Matter must take a knee to MAGA. Ibram Kendi must take a knee to MAGA. Kay Coles-James of Heritage Foundation needs to learn her natural place and take a knee to MAGA.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I know, I'm not about healing through pain. No, thank you for saying that. Yeah, it's partially schadenfreude. It's partially just kind of like the, you know, solace and knowing that you are correct. The solace and knowing that... We weren't leading people astray. There's something to that. There's a little bit of joy in seeing other people's pain.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Any guess on the race of Kay Coles-James, Will? Uh, let me guess. Uh, it has to do with Ebony. Yeah. Yes. There you go. Black. Yeah. Uh, Tim Scott, Katie Coles, James conservatives. They need to take a knee. They need to learn their place, natural place and take a knee to MAGA. So this guy is really, uh, he was fired from the first Trump administration for his associations with white nationalists.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He was one of the only people too racist to be fired from the first Trump administration. He's been brought back, uh, He's also pro-Uyghur genocide, essentially, or at least a big excuser of the Uyghur genocide. And talking about how he said that we treat American rural whites worse than China treats the Uyghur minority. And then this takes us to South Africa.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
There's an interesting statement from Trump this morning, from Trump yesterday morning, rather. South Africa is confiscating land and treating certain classes of people very badly. It is a bad situation that the radical left media doesn't want to so much as mention. The United States won't stand for it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I will be cutting off all future funding to South Africa until a full investigation of this situation has been completed. Beatty had said this in the past, the whole concept of modern South Africa is absurd, doomed to fail from the beginning. South Africa was the first modern nation to be refounded on the anti-white principles of critical race theory.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Musk is also from South Africa, you might remember, and his attack on USAID may also have something to do with his feelings about the South African leadership. USAID had spent a lot of money helping black folks suffering from apartheid in South Africa. So, I mean, it's not exactly subtle, Will. No, it's not.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, I don't know. The Marco Rubio side of it is pretty interesting to me, too. See, he had to hire Beatty, right? And Marco Rubio ran in 2016, as I recall, on kind of a compassionate conservatism updated platform. And Marco Rubio has hired the guy who said that Kay Cole's James of the Heritage Foundation needs to learn her natural place and take a knee to MAGA.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But the bad people, the MAGA people, there will be some collateral damage, unfortunately. That's not what I'm happy about. But just their failures is kind of giving me a little joy. No, is that wrong?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And this is the type of person that Marco wants as his undersecretary, somebody who is posting just the most overt, obvious, racist, vile things. over and over again about conservative black leaders. I, you know, not that it's okay to do racist stuff about Ibram Kendi, but like this guy is so through the looking glass that he's posting racist shit about Tim Scott and Kate Cole's James.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And Marco is like, I want this man to be my undersecretary. I just think that the degree of the corruption, the corruption of the soul of these people is, is pretty remarkable. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I mean, it's his undersecretary.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I guess. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's their version of DEI. Remind me, what's the job that Beatty's getting here? Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
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The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I was looking for that chilling on the beach vibe on Saturday night because I was over at my buddy's house. I had a big day ahead of me Sunday. Lots happening out there in the news. You know, didn't want to deal with the hangover. We had the kids running around. You know what a nice thing to do is when you have seven-year-old girls running around screaming, pretending like they're cats?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
A gummy that gives you that chilling on the beach vibe. Now, I'm not a quad man, so be careful out there, everybody. You know, for me... maybe just a five milligram. That'll do the trick. Come home, watch some severance, watch a little bit of nuggets on DVR, big win over the Hornets made for a nice little evening, pleasant evening, a little break from everything that was happening on the news.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
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The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
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The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
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The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
That's 30% off your order using code THEBULLWORK. One last time, GetSold.com and code THEBULLWORK for 30% off. I want to go back to Elon. We mentioned this, but the Treasury story? It's really something. I mean, Doge, I guess, and Elon now with the approval of incoming Treasury Secretary Scott Besant, who everybody told me was the normie. This is the guy we don't have to worry about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I don't know. Personal validation. Yeah. All that matters is solipsism. All that matters is having my own brain. Okay, I knew that you'd be on the other side of that, but I figured some of the listeners would be on my side. I'm enjoying it. There's another thing. It was related. I don't know. Ezra Klein, you might have heard of him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I guess he's given Elon carte blanche to... interfere in the payment system. Among the things that he said that he wants to put a stop payment on is payment to Lutheran religious services because the Lutheran services, they're providing services for immigrants. Obviously, we wouldn't want to do that. So, you know, the
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
The Christian, the presidency, the presidency brought in by Christians who, you know, great evangelical Christians like Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell Jr. They're shutting down all payments to the Lutheran religious services. Anyway, JVL has kind of an even darker take on what's happening.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He writes this, Elon Musk allegedly has control of the system the US government uses to disperse congressionally mandated payments. Musk claims that he's personally putting a stop to payments he does not like. First, this obviously could not happen unless the FBI had been neutered because these actions are badly illegal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Of course, if the DOJ and FBI refuse to investigate the crimes, are they really crimes at all? But then he goes on to talk about how, you know, Musk wants X to be a payment system. And his dark vision of what's possibly coming is that Elon wants to get his own private businesses funded. involved in payments from the government.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
You would have said that that was a crazy conspiracy to even suggest, but boy, I don't know what they'd be doing differently if they were planning on doing that. Yeah, well, that's just oligarchy, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So we are messaging about our topics for today. You know, the worse than Watergate conversation. firings at the FBI, shuttering of USAID, this racist that's going to the Secretary of State, Elon taking over the Treasury, let's see, the January 6th pardon guys raping people, the tariff, the trade war, et cetera, et cetera. So we were discussing potential topics.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He's kind of a minor columnist, and we might have him on the pod again soon. He had a piece over the weekend that said this. Trump is acting like a king because he's too weak to govern like a president. He's trying to substitute perception for reality. He's hoping that perception then becomes reality.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
You said to me, also the outrage is not high enough about what he's doing on DEI. So I just figured I'd let you cook on that for a little bit too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He did explicitly, like he was citing people with mental health issues and paraplegics and other weird stuff like that. But yeah, I mean, the implication is obvious.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
That can only happen if we believe him as part of a longer monologue about just like, this is not actually the actions of somebody who is going to take over the government in a gradual and effective way.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Well, maybe if we had more Aryans like Darren Beatty watching, you know, air traffic control, we might be in a better place. I don't know. But I wanted to let you cook on that because obviously it's racist and horrible. And I think that additionally, though, it will be illegal the way that they're targeting individuals who work in the government, who are career officials.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
You know, we already saw the one example. I think I talked on a past podcast about Dan Crenshaw. putting up a picture of a black woman and noting that she had changed her bio to take out DEI and basically saying this woman should be fired, essentially. So there's going to be racist targeting of that. I worry a little bit about the Democrats' response to this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
We're going to spend a lot of time all week on all the horrors that the Republicans are inflicting on Americans. But the Democrats had an election over the weekend where they were going to choose who was going to lead the party in opposition to this. They chose a guy named Ken Martin from Minnesota. He ran what they call the DFL party in Minnesota. He seems like a fine enough person, I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I don't know. He doesn't exactly seem like the knife in his teeth attack dog that I might have wanted for the job. I don't know him that well. Leading up to his election victory, there was a debate that happened. And I want to play a clip from the debate and then discuss something that was really...
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So for people listening, everybody raised their hand. Ken Martin, who presented up winning, was like the most excited with the hand raise. And he was like pumping his hand up to that question. Jonathan Capehart says they all win in that answer. Okay. I mean, okay. I want to get to that in a second.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
There's another segment where there's a question from somebody in the audience about whether the DNC needed to have a permanent seat or at-large seat for somebody who's transgender. There's another question about whether they needed Muslim affinity groups to do outreach to the Muslims.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Everybody on stage, all the different candidates supported both of those objectives, except for one person, Faze Shaker, who was Bernie's campaign manager. So here I am handing it to Bernie's campaign manager. But he was like, I don't know, I think maybe we should focus a little less on this stuff and obsess on this stuff a little bit less.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
These are the actions of somebody that doesn't know what they're doing and is trying to continue the fraud that he's perpetrated on the country for a long time that covers up his fundamental political weakness. What's it to you to Ezra's positive spin? These are the last two positive items of the podcast. Just saying.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And so, anyway, Will, I made you as homework watch some of this, and I'm wondering what you think. Because I was not seeing a party that learned a lot from their defeat when I was watching this candidate forum.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I mean, what you want from the leader of the DNC in this moment is somebody that's going to be the tip of the sphere in taking the fight to Donald Trump. And there was just very little of that. Again, besides FaZe, who I thought was really good, who's talking about what – and I'm trying to get him on the pod – but what he thinks the DNC could do from a communication standpoint better.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
There just was a lot of caring about the internal nonsense that nobody cares about besides random people who are obsessed with Democratic Party internal politics. I understand that it's an internal debate. And I think at a time when the stakes are lower, or back in 1998, I don't know if it was that big of a deal who the DNC chair was, and they could all hash out their own internal disagreements.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But there is a vacuum right now. And the vacuum needs to be filled by somebody on the left who is capable of being the torchbearer in the fight against Trump. And these guys just weren't it. I want to play one more clip from the outgoing. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to obsess about the identity thing here. Well, but like somebody has to say it like they need to learn about something.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And so I want to play Jamie Harrison, the outgoing DNC chair. This is him in his intro to talking about the. I guess it was the rules of the vice chair race for the DNC and making sure they had the right representation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
That goes on for another 90 seconds. I spared you the last 90 seconds, but that goes on for another 90 seconds. Is this fucking Portlandia? What are we doing here? Does the DNC need full balance between male, female, and non-binary representation on every committee? If there's a great non-binary candidate to be the vice chair of the DNC, that's awesome. I'm fine with that, Sarah McBride.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Transgender congresswoman, she seems great. Put her forth. I support that. But what are they doing? Stop obsessing over this shit. Stop. Just stop. You can care about representation and making sure that people are at the table without making yourself into a caricature that makes the country laugh at you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Like the object of the DNC right now is to build a party that can take on Donald Trump and the aspiring authoritarian that we just went over all the things that they're doing to try to make this an authoritarian country. The opposition needs to be up for that fight, not like obsessing over which committee has the right number of non-binary Native Americans. OK, we got to stop.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Snow is our care. It's absurd. We need two of every race and gender, you know, two of every sexual identity. We need two intersex, two bisexuals. We need two of everything.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
That is not true, though. Well, it is the essence of the party. Was Jamie Harrison up there talking about how we need to make sure that there's a vice chair that didn't go to college or that there's a vice chair from... communities that have been hollowed out by the economic crisis. I don't fucking know. You show people what you care about by what you talk about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
That's how you show people what you care about. And the Democrats over and over show people what they care about is identity politics, making sure everybody has a seat at the table. They just... I'm sorry. That is it. The Republicans don't do this. They don't have this happening at their meetings. And people notice that. There's crazy stuff that happens at Republican meetings. Yeah, of course.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Well, four years later, people have people are stupid and have short memories. But yeah, they didn't think so at the time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, of course. There's other crazy shit that the Republicans have. The Republicans have plenty of baggage that they have to carry. Yeah. Why? What is the value of this?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I'm sorry. I don't you don't think that that's happening in meetings at Democratic HQ, that there are people in private like trying to discuss on the strategy of like, oh, we got to make sure that we're representing. I do think I do think it is impacting their strategy. I don't think that there's anybody in these rooms that are working class Americans that did not go to fucking fancy schools.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Like, I just don't think there is. I think that the rooms are full of people that care about this like campus politics shit. Like, on balance. I don't think that's true.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Right, he was the last person. He entered the race at the end because he was like, somebody has to, like... talk different.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
No, they can talk about it in a way that's normal. They can talk about it in a way that normal people talk about shit. If you wanted to say at that forum, it is outrageous that Donald Trump is kicking out of the military. people that are transgender, that volunteered to serve, and that this fucking keyboard jockey that ducked
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
The military, because he had fake bone spurs in his feet, is now trying to tell a patriotic transgender American that they have to be kicked out of the military to appease some like 22-year-old racists on Reddit? Great. Say that. Have passion in your gut for protecting people and for defending people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But like, don't just like talk about how, oh, oh, you know, we need to make sure that the AANHPI committee has enough influence, you know, and is that like, you know what I mean? Like, there's ways to talk about it that they tell how they talk about it on Portlandia. And there are ways to talk about protecting trans people in the way that they would talk about it at a dinner table in America.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. But it would be fine for me if I felt like they were at least doing their best. I want them to defend people. Marginalized people should be defended. What I don't want is stupid tokenism because they think that it's helping people when it's actually just hurting them. Okay. Final thing. Very important topic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Luka Doncic got traded to the LA Lakers, which is madness for anybody who pays attention to the NBA. At the worst, you could say he's the fourth best player in the NBA. He might be the second best player in the NBA. They traded him to the fucking Lakers, who always get the best people. For Anthony Davis, who's always hurt, I don't understand it. I feel like we are...
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
it's rigged the nba is rigged they're they're upset about the ratings or maybe miriam adelson who's the new owner of dallas maybe there's maybe she is like sabotaging the team this is like what was that movie major league where the owner was trying to sabotage the team maybe she's trying to sabotage the team because mark cuban used to be the owner and he's woke now i don't know
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So, just a little context here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Bill Kristol's on vacation. I'm here with my colleague... Will Salatin. What's up, Will?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I don't know. Who was I talking to this about last night? Oh, I was talking to JJ McCullough. We did a YouTube video on this topic and he's Canadian. He was like, he's like, won't the Magas not care? Even if they're, I guess they're probably not even buying guacamole, whatever, you know, even if their maple syrup for their pancakes is going up and won't they just think that that's,
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
It's wrong. And it doesn't make any sense. It's horrible for the Mavericks long-term, so I don't know why they would do it for their franchise. It might make them a little bit better this year, weirdly, just because Luka's been hurt. But... Ah, it's outrageous. It certainly would be the second dumbest thing to the tariffs if it wasn't for this little piece of breaking news I got for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
The president of Mexico, Claudia Scheidenbaum, says that she has reached an agreement with Trump to delay the tariff by up to a month. So it will rise to the first dumbest move, the Luca trade, over the tariffs if... The Canada tariffs also get delayed a month after Trump talks to Trudeau. Who knows?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But that is that's the state of play on our very stable economy with our very stable genius president. So, Will Salatin, do you have any final thoughts on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
What a joy. All right. Will Salatin, thanks so much. I'm next. Scott Lincecum. I'm sure you know somebody out there has been a victim of identity theft or had that credit card stolen or been stalked or doxxed. This day and age, making sure that your data is private is critical.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And as a person who exists publicly, especially someone that shares my opinions online, I'm hyper aware of safety and security. It's easier than ever for people to find personal information about me or you online. All this data hanging out there on the internet can have actual consequences. And that's why I personally recommend Delete.me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Delete.me is a subscription service that removes your personal info from hundreds of data brokers. Sign up and provide Delete.me with exactly what information you want deleted and their experts take it from there. Delete Me isn't just a one-time service. It's always working for you, constantly monitoring and removing the personal information you don't want on the internet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
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The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Slash Bulwark. Code Bulwark. All right. Hey, everybody. As I mentioned at the end of the Will Salatin interview, Trump backed off of the tariff to Mexico, at least for a month. They kicked it back a month in exchange for, I guess, 10,000 troops, Mexican troops going to the border. So I taped the Scott Lincecum part of this interview about the trade war before that news came out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
We're going to keep that in here because Scott provides a lot of really kind of interesting analysis of how this stuff works in practice. And, you know, these threats and bluffs and backoffs and, you know, this whole rigmarole, we're going to be living through this for the next few years. So I think it is still very relevant to hear from Scott on what the implications are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And as I'm taping this right now, we don't know what, if anything, will happen with the Canadian and China tariffs, whether we'll try to punch those back a month as well or not. So we will see what happens. And we're back with my buddy Scott Lincecum. He's the Vice President of General Economics and Trade at the Cato Institute. He's an adjunct professor at Duke Law School.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
you know, whatever part of Trump's grand plan. And I was like, yeah, but the problem is he got a lot of votes from people that did not have those strong ties, right. That were annoyed by prices and had some, you know, annoyances about the cultural shift left of the Democrats. And maybe they cared about crime or immigration. Right. But like,
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He writes the Capitalism Newsletter for the Dispatch, subtly titled. And he also said, is this right? You're the progenitor of the viral t-shirt, tariffs not only impose economic costs, but also fail to achieve their primary policy aims and foster political dysfunction along the way. You can see why that's a popular t-shirt. Yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yes. Increasing and increasing as the minutes go by. Well, I wanted to have you on as, you know, a local tariff expert to dig deep on this. The Wall Street Journal called it the stupidest trade war in history. So I'm turning to you for both the kind of the big picture. And now we agree that it's bad. So that part is covered. But like what exactly is happening? And then kind of we'll dig into it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
The Canadian fentanyl emergency. I've been hearing lots about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
There's not. I think we can say at the board that there is not a Canadian fentanyl crisis. I mean, I guess every ounce, every gram of fentanyl that comes across the border is a tragedy, as RFK would say about abortions. But I don't think it rises to the level of crisis.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
there are people that are not in the cult that were for him. And I do think that some of them are going to maybe experience the consequences of the vote, but we'll see.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
We should get into the legal side of this and what legal remedies there are. But just just to be clear on what the political side of this is. I mean, Trump acknowledged what you're saying is that there will be some disruption. He said we may have short term some a little pain. I don't remember him saying that during the campaign, but he acknowledged yesterday that there will be pain for people.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He said recently, nothing can be done to forestall tariffs. We have very big deficits and tariffs are something that we are doing. Canada has treated us very unfairly. J.D. Vance writes yesterday, spare me the sob story. He's such a dick. Spare me the sob story about how Canada is our best friend. I love Canada and have many Canadian friends. Quick fact check.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I find that very challenging to believe that J.D. Vance has said.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But does J.D. has friends that are Canadian? I'd like to see the evidence of that. But is the government meeting their NATO target for military spending? Are they stopping the flow of drugs in the country? I'm sick of being taken advantage of. And these guys are all over the place. Right. I mean, even in their own messaging, like the fentanyl thing is just such an obvious fig leaf.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He's like he's talking about NATO and all this other shit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, I liked this observation by Brendan Duke. He said it was just three months ago. Trump was green lighting a pipeline from Canada to own the American libs. But now he's starting a trade war with Canada because he says we import too much oil from them. Right. And it is the whole thing is just incoherent. I get it betrays.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He understands or at least somebody around him understood like the value of of bringing Canadian oil, for the very reason you said, you know, to places where it's geographically convenient and, you know, where it works. But I guess, you know, that is not as important now as the tariff temper tantrum.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So let's just do 101 here. All right. So the tariff, I was getting a text from a buddy last night. He's like, so who collects the tariff again? Right. I mean, like, we're just trying to, you know, remember our, our, you know, macro 101 from college here. So the tariff at the border, the tariff is actually collected from the importer. Yes. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So, you know, it's not, it's not as if the Canadian exporter then pays a quarter on every dollar to the US government. The importer pays that when they bring it in. Is that right? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
No, he's been texting me. There's definitely no vacation for him mentally, but he does get one day off the podcast. Can I start with something positive, though? Go ahead, man. I don't know if you'll find it positive, but I'm feeling good about a couple of things this morning. All right? Tell me. Here's number one. this is a shit show. This is a total shit show. And I knew it would be a shit show.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
How do those economic ones happen? Like the US, we send them a bill? Like, sorry, you're fucking with us?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
All right. Well, I don't like this roll switch. Okay. I'm the pony. I'm finding the pony. You're trying to bring me into darkness. I don't take it. Just let me have it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Well, that'll be great for infrastructure costs and all the issues, yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
It's a guy from Mexico. He's driving up in his truck with avocados. He's crossing the border legally. Is the customs guy counting the avocados and giving him a bill? How does that actually happen?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a pony for me. All right. Things are getting darker from here. So I hope everybody enjoyed that segment. Will, our colleague Bill Kristol, wasn't so much on vacation that he couldn't write a newsletter this morning. He wrote about the scandals that are currently embroiling the administration that are worse than Watergate.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
The guy shipping it in is getting the bill, but I thought the importer was supposed to be paying for it because then they just charge the importer on the back end.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
It'd be kind of awesome. I talked to some mad Canadians last night. So there might be some maple syrup getting chucked across the border.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So you kind of mentioned this, but what about just the broader structural supply chain challenges, right? Because if you're a U.S. automaker, some of this stuff's coming from China through Mexico to the U.S.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Oh, it's a complex widget. It has a couple different parts. Yeah, a lot.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
He starts with the firings at the FBI for people that have not been following this. There were, I guess, six high-level FBI officials that were involved. escorted out of the building late last week. Then there were other FBI officials that were involved in the Trump administration that they were trying to have relieved of their duties.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
We can say what the fuck here, but yeah, I got a kid.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Well, that's going to do good things for prices, I think. The other funny thing I saw about this, two more funny things I want to share with you. One was they've removed the de minimis exception. Yes. And so this was like, you know, if a Canadian grandma wants to send her American, you know, wants to send a gift. Right. To her grandchild who now lives in Austin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
They got to pay a tariff on that now. I guess we're going to have external revenue service people like 20 year olds Elon hires from the Reddit message board I guess is going to be going through the mail to figure out if there are any tariffs that need to happen now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I just think we're going to take all the people from USAID and we're going to make them border agents.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But the acting FBI director, Brian Driscoll, actually refused to agree with that request. And in a message to staff on Saturday, he reminded FBI agents of their rights to due process and review in accordance with existing policy and law. We had a letter at the Bulwark this morning that comes from the Society of Former FBI Agents, which is not a group that is particularly political.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I also like this from Chuck Grassley this morning. He's trying to blame Biden, of course. Biden, inflation increased the input cost to farmers by 20%, including particularly the high prices on fertilizer. So I plead with President Trump to exempt potash from the tariff because family farmers get most of our potash from Canada.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I was wondering if that was a typo because Chuck Grassley does a lot of typos. I'm not a farm boy. I'm from the suburbs, but my farm husband informs me that potash is a real thing. Yes. And it's in fertilizer. Correct. Correct. And that's a big problem. So now we have individual centers begging Mr. Trump for mercy for random products.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And I think we found the feature for the-
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I mean – But Scheinbaum and Trudeau are trying to counteract that by targeting – red state businesses. Yes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I did a whole segment on YouTube with our Canadian pal, JJ, that people can go find. I'll put the link in the show notes. And it's – they're hot. They're hot under the collar up there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And they are saying that this is an obvious disruption to FBI operations, the degree to which it can't be overstated. The forced retirement of director, deputy director, and now all five executive assistant directors. They say that this extreme disruption is occurring at a time when the terrorist threat around the world has never been greater. It's putting us at great risk.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So you wrote this one, you think the impact here, if they actually go through with it, could be the biggest one-year tax increase ever?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Now that's a good place to end. Thanks to Will Salatin, Scott Lincecum. Everybody else, we'll see you back here tomorrow.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And we have basically, you know, the weekend of the long knives at the FBI. And this is coming to a head with the Kash Patel vote coming up in the Senate.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, I don't really care if the public cares at this point. It's like, that's a problem for fall of 2026. I think that the substantive element here that you talked about, like at the beginning, is about how scary it is. You were smart to tie this to the pardons, and we had another story out over the weekend. I guess it's the 4th
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Person that was pardoned that has had another altercation with police. This one is Dylan Harrington. He was nicknamed the MAGA Lumberjack. He was arrested for rape. He's raping a woman who is blacked out and did not consent. He had pleaded guilty to assaulting, resisting and impeding officers, was sentenced to 37 months in prison and Trump had pardoned him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
We told everybody it would. But, you know, there was always a chance that Trump would get in there and, I don't know, decide not to do anything, right? And just kind of bleat and get people to call him sir and not actually do anything and take credit for things that were already kind of percolating positively from the Biden administration. That was one option that could have happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
So you have that, you have the paramilitary organization, you said, you have this unlawful firing of career federal law enforcement officials, high level law enforcement officials.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
We talked about this with Andrew Weissman on Friday, just about like how important it is to institutional knowledge to have these people and judgment, you know, given the most challenging cases, we've gotten rid of all those people. And then JVL tied it also to what is happening with Elon Musk, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Where Elon Musk is now taking over the Treasury Department, going into USAID, having his little 20-year-old Doge officials try to bully career officials, get access to classified information, get access to personal financial information. And JVL's point is like, look, if you've cleansed the law enforcement agencies of anyone who would be willing to investigate
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
members of the own administration, then members of your own administration can act with impunity and can commit illegal actions, which Elon Musk is doing. Right. So all of this is an attack on the rule of law.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, I mean, here's just one example of what was happening with USAID. This is from CNN. Officials with Musk's so-called Department of Government Efficiency sparked a tense clash with USAID administrators over the weekend by demanding access to its physical headquarters and digital systems, threatening to call security when the agency refused.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
The incident led to two more senior USAID security officials being placed on leave, and Doge ultimately succeeded in getting classified information. I mean, like that is... That is Hungary. We're doing this thing where it's like we're having these conversations where it's like, are they on the path to Hungary? Are we on the path to Russia? What are they going to try to do?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
But instead... We have JVL this morning in the triad predicting a stock market crash. And all the topics we're about to go over is them messing things up. I don't know. Can we not have some pleasure in that? Knowing that they're as bad as we thought they would be?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Hello and welcome to the Bulldog Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got a two-parter today. I added a bonus segment with Scott Lincecum, who's a trade expert, to talk about the tariffs that are imminent and already rollicking the stock market. But first, it's back for the old-timers, for the OGs. You might remember Will Salatin Mondays. Well, they're back right now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
How much of this is just PR? How much of this is whatever, Trump bleeding, illiberal things? This is unelected people that I assume don't have security clearances or background checks yet because they're just random officials with Doge going in and bullying existing high-level national security officials with clearances to get classified information.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
And then, obviously, the next step of this is to then shut down USAID, which is coming, which reports say are coming. USAID signs were taken down from the Reagan building. They're going to put it under Secretary of State, I guess. That's blatantly not legal. It is thug autocracy. That's what that is.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Yeah, throw China in there too, obviously.
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
Well, go ahead and continue down that path, because you said you wanted to talk about the geopolitics of the trade wars. And obviously, we'll get into this more with Scott, but that all ties together, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Will Saletan and Scott Lincicome: A Crime Boss Has Taken Over
I mean, this is an effort to completely isolate America from our allies, from having influence in parts of the world where there's competition for influence with the more authoritarian regimes, right? And the trade war is directly connected to shutting down USAID in that sense. And it's also directly connected to the coming threats to NATO that we're going to be seeing in the coming months.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Also, there's one exception to the Wii situation for sports fans out there. I do sometimes call the Denver Nuggets Wii, and I'm not playing for the team. But I think this is maybe a little bit different. But maybe that's cashes out. The problem, though, as you mentioned, is the whole testimony was not convinced. He was just obviously lying throughout the entire testimony.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And there was how he's like, oh, I don't believe in QAnon anymore. And, oh, I wasn't even involved in conversations about who to pardon anymore. And I had no idea what Trump would do about that. And the testimony was like, I just need to lie enough to give the handful of Republicans who are pretending like they're still normal and care about the rule of law, a fig leaf to be able to confirm me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So you taped yesterday after the hearing had started. So we played the one clip about him being asked by Durbin about Stu Peters. You know, have you heard of Stu Peters? No, I don't know. That doesn't ring a bell. And it's like, well, you did his podcast eight times. And who is Stu Peters? It was a far right podcaster that spoke at Nick Fuentes' anti-Semitic Hitler youth group that he has.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The lies were just so obvious and blatant. They were reminiscent of a child's lies. Yes. They weren't like high quality, like little lies where it's like trying to shade language one way or the other. It's just like the word we doesn't mean what it means. Or I've never heard of this person that I've talked to eight times on camera or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I said clearly that Donald Trump declassified the documents. Now I don't even know what the documents are.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
It seems to me like he's going to get through him. I talked about at the top, I think that there's a Cassidy situation. It's kind of interesting with RFK. The buzz from Tulsi is not that great. I kind of will believe it when I see it as far as these guys actually opposing, these guys being the Republican senators, actually opposing any of Trump's nominees when the rubber meets the road.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
But the buzz on Cash is not that. It seems like we're in a Hegseth type situation where they're going to jam him through. As somebody that was there in the building, what worries you most about a Kash Patel bureau?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And he was just as a quick aside, Cash was asked about this by Cory Booker yesterday because the report leaked out before the hearing was over. Yes. And Booker said, are you aware of these plans to punish in any way, including termination, FBI agents or personnel associated with Trump investigations? And again, another like obvious lie.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I'm not aware of that, Senator, which is just, you know, kind of.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Well, I mean, I don't know. It's a meritocracy now. We've gotten rid of all the DEI and everything. So you would think that maybe this is, maybe it is cash. Maybe they've looked at everything. They've made decisions just on merit. Is it megatocracy? Just merit only. It's all they're looking at. I'm just such a neophyte in this. I don't really know how these investigations work.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I don't know how the building works. What are some negative consequences of having senior officials fired, having a total clown be in charge of the bureau, putting in Trump's sycophants? What are some things that worry you?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And just for people, because sometimes it's hard unless you're really watching a lot of spy movies or are deep into the news, the FBI's remit as opposed to the other agencies when it comes to terrorist threats?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Talk to me about the morale inside and your thoughts on that, because that's the other thing that's kind of hard for me to give a sense for. Because, I don't know, there's a part of me that says...
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Like, if I am a career FBI official who's been nonpartisan, investigating domestic terrorists, investigating big drug ginkg pins, you know, investigating whatever, murders, and, you know, I've moved up the ranks. And now this clown is in charge. Part of me is like, I don't know. I wonder how much I could get paid to go do some private security for some famous people. Because this seems awful.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
But maybe that's wrong. I don't know. Maybe that's wrong. Maybe there's a lot of MAGA people in there that are excited about cash. Or maybe their mindset is so much different than mine that they're just like, whatever. It doesn't matter who's in charge. What do you think about the morale?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So Cassidy's a doctor, as he said, and... He voted to convict Donald Trump in the second impeachment. Those are the two key facts here. And I think that it's pretty clear that he's weighing what to do. And so my message to Bill Cassidy is just go out with your head held high, man. You can do the right thing here. I think that opposing...
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
A lot of KMAs probably. The other thing that I wanted to ask about Cash and just sort of his remit and the scariest thing. And I guess we'll do a little macabre humor to start this question. But obviously, there is the enemies list. He pretends like he didn't have an enemies list. But I mean, he literally had one. And it was an appendix in the book.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And he talked about it all the time on all the various podcasts that he forgets that he was on now, apparently. I interviewed Steve Bannon about this about two months ago. And asked him, I was like, Are you guys serious about this? Like, who do you want cash to target if he's in there? And then, you know, it's like, Yeah, I'm serious.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And I was like, Okay, well, who do you think should be targeted? He starts listing names. And he lists you. Andrew Weissman was right there on the list. Andy McCabe. These guys watch a lot of cable. So the cable news lawyers were the top of the list. Those are the real guys you need to go after. And then we'll figure out who else is in the shadows in the deep state to figure them out later.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
But we're coming for the cable news lawyers first. That's a great motto. Go for the cable news lawyers. So this next question might have some implications for you. But the thing that worries me about cash is the FBI has a pretty broad remit to make people's lives miserable before you get to a lot of checks.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And so I'm curious what you kind of think about that, like what your worries are about the investigations and whoever has the old Andrew Weissman job as the general counsel, what kind of oversight they'll have over, you know, just sort of opening up the book on people's lives and making things hard for them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
RFK and preventing him from becoming the Secretary of Health and Human Services is something that is both the right thing for him to do for the country, for the health of the people that live in this country, but also maybe for him politically and certainly for his legacy. Let's just kind of go through all this. Look, Bill Cassidy broke it down in the hearing. He knows that RFK Jr.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So you're not changing your day-to-day life thinking about the Kash Patel FBI. I'm still here doing my thing with the bulwark. All right. Have you done any Googling of expatriate laws just in like your darker moments? I have not. Okay. Keep me posted. The first time you do that, Google, because I think you're kind of higher up the list than me.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So, you know, the first time you start thinking you got to start Googling about it, then just give me a heads up so I can... Are you jealous, Tim? I'm with you. I'm joking about it. I know this is a joke, but I'm with you. I am way more worried about incompetent people being in charge of our security and what the impact could be. On that, I'm way more worried about many of these other stories.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
One of the things I was rage posting about last night was a story about a guy who is undocumented immigrant, but he's married to an American citizen. So he's in the green card process. He has kids that are American citizens. They were going to buy formula products.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
For their baby, for one of the kids, the husband and the wife, they got pulled over allegedly for speeding or running a stop sign or something. And the guy's in ICE detention now. The cop called ICE. You know, I'm way more worried about people like that than the cable news lawyers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Yeah, if you think there was a lot of elite failure the last few decades, just wait. Just wait until the idiocracy comes forth, and then you'll really see the new elite failure. I want to also ask you about the DOJ firings, because it's related. you know, some of these 74 FBI officials, like you said, are going to be pushed out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The people that are investigating Trump as part of Jack Smith, et cetera. I guess there's some questions about whether this is even legal. So it's a two part question for you is just like, what's your sense for what's happening and, and whether they're going to get away with it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The Merit System, that's interesting. Merit System Protection.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
is not the right person to lead HHS. He knows. I mean, he said it clearly that it is irresponsible and dangerous to have somebody that is a vaccine conspiracist running these agencies. He gave you an example of what the consequences of that might be, of deaths. Tommy Vitor talked about this yesterday, of what we saw in Samoa. We've seen the increase already in
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I'm getting old, so I can kind of remember things. I know you can remember things now. I wouldn't love to remember Alberto Gonzalez getting run out of town.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
It is wild just when you think about that trajectory, though. Yeah. Alberto Gonzalez was forced to resign over something that was the first act, like basically the same exact, actually a worse version of that was the first act of the incoming Trump attorney general. So this is happening across the board, you know, and just stuff keeps leaking out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
There's a Post story this morning about someone, a senior official at Treasury, who I guess was in charge of Payment systems that, you know, how people get their Social Security checks, etc. And Elon, our shadow president, wanted control of the payment system. I don't know if he's going to pay people in Dogecoin.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I don't know exactly why he wanted the system that the guy is saying that he's going to quit. Right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
What is your sense for SCOTUS? I ask every actual lawyer, actual SCOTUS watcher that comes on here what they think because there's just a range of views. When it comes to all these sorts of challenges, I don't know. To me, it's like birthright citizenship. I feel pretty good SCOTUS will uphold the just plain text of the Constitution.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
But on all this kind of stuff, impoundment, firing of career civil servants, because that's where this is all going, right? Isn't this all going to the Supreme Court eventually? Yeah.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
in instances of whooping cough and some of these other you know diseases that we have immunizations for if that proliferates there will be young people to die if that proliferates the country all of us all of our kids will become less protected from disease like bill cassidy knows this he does And so just from a medical standpoint, from a health standpoint, the obvious vote here is no.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
All right, just two other legal stories related to the media, since you're, you know, A lawyer in the media. A rage over the possible paramount CBS settlement over 60 Minutes is unbounded. For people who have not followed this, 60 Minutes aired an interview with Kamala Harris where they had a preview of the show that showed an exchange with her and Bill Whitaker that looked one way.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And then in the actual program, the exchange was different. And the reason for this is because previews of shows are very short and people that are making commercials are trying to cut up very long interviews in ways that make it coherent and make it enticing for a viewer to come watch.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
It's something that is just totally standard procedure in every interview, particularly in a long magazine show like 60 Minutes. Like what 60 Minutes did was totally pro forma, If it's happened one time, it's happened a million times. Donald Trump sued over this because who knows why?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Sued for $10 billion, saying that CBS was biasing in favor of Kamala because they made her answer more coherent than it really was. That was the claim. It is a preposterous lawsuit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And a report out yesterday says that many executives at CBS's parent company, Paramount, believe that settling this lawsuit would increase the odds that the Trump administration does not block or delay their planned multi-billion dollar merger. If they fucking settle this suit and you are a Paramount Plus subscriber, unsubscribe. Maybe unsubscribe now and start sending them a message.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I don't care if you like Yellowstone or whatever's on there. This is fucking outrageous. So I don't know if you have additional thoughts about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
From a political standpoint, if you're Bill Cassidy, right now you're going to be up for Senate for reelection. The way that elections work in Louisiana, Senate and federal primaries are closed primaries, traditional primaries. So it's just Republicans that can vote in them. There's already a guy, John Fleming, that has said that he is going to challenge Cassidy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
The ABC, the Stephanopoulos suit was at least kind of an in the eye of the beholder type lawsuit about whether somebody was slandered. I think that ABC and Disney would have won that suit. But the 60-minute suit is a category difference from that. The 60-minute lawsuit was written in crayon or smeared with poop onto a piece of paper. And it is the stupidest fucking thing that I've ever seen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And the idea that they would settle something.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I'm having trouble understanding your argument. Again, I didn't know that much about the FBI thing, so I couldn't be quite as outraged as you about the Kash Patel lawsuit. I've worked on 60-minute stories. I know how this works. This is a $10 billion lawsuit because they cut a preview of an interview that didn't include the full context. It is just...
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
idiotic we can say the r word again i don't but that that is really what it is anyway i don't know if you have anything else on that but no i don't i'm done i'm feeling your pain though all right you never know because you might get targeted who the hell knows you might get sued now over and and maybe so i think civil suits are definitely going to be a way forward for this administration no oh yeah question bullying people i mean because it works because all these gazillionaires are folding
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Because they want their merger to happen. They don't want Mr. Trump to be mean to them about their merger. these paramount executives, you better, you better not settle this suit. FCC is also opening investigation into the NPR and PBS.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Brendan Carr, the new chairman, uh, sent a letter this week to the heads of NPR and PBS announcing an investigation into the public outlets for airing sponsorships, a long time practice. Trump had bleeded in April and all caps, no more funding for NPR, a total scam. Editor said they have no Republicans. I don't know if that is, uh, That's related. But I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Kash Patel yesterday during the hearing was saying that they were not going to politicize anything. There are not going to be any more political investigations. What do you think? You think that this is on the up and up here, this FCC investigation?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
There is another guy that is a MAGA local elected official that's looking at challenging Cassidy. There was some, there's some drama down here in Louisiana that, uh, Cassidy had denied that guy, I'm blanking on his name, but had denied him tickets to the DC Mardi Gras ball. That's how you do hardball politics in Louisiana.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
That's an uplifting place for us to close for the weekend pod. Andrew Weissman.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Welcome to the Bulldog Podcast. Thank you so much for doing it. Let's do it again sometime. Remember his podcast, Main Justice. You can check that out if you want to nerd out with Andrew Weissman and his subtext behind the headlines with Andrew Weissman. We'll be talking to you soon. Thanks, Tim. Everybody else, we'll be back Monday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Bill's on a little holiday, so I got Will Salatin Mondays are back. We'll see you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Rep Clay Higgins, who's one of the most insane members of the House of Representatives, who is from down here in Louisiana, sent a threatening tweet to Bill Cassidy yesterday with his picture. It says, RFK is going to run HHS whether you like it or not. So these guys are going to try to bully him and they're going to run against him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
This is, as many of you have probably figured out, as much about you as it is about giving myself a pep talk, as the siren song of nihilism is quite appealing to me. But when there appears to be an opening for anyone to but particularly an elected Republican, to do the right thing, we should encourage it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And it's just hard for me to see, even if Bill Cassidy comes around and does the right thing, we've just seen too many examples of this. Brian Kemp is like the one example of somebody that bucked Trump and survived. And I'm just telling you, the electorate in Georgia is different than the electorate in Louisiana.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And I just I don't see how somebody that voted to convict Donald Trump and ban him from running for office again is going to win a Republican primary in Louisiana. So politically speaking, doing this because he thinks it might help him win reelection to the Senate, I think is foolish. I think that there's potentially a political future for him if he wants it to try to run for governor here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
He thought about doing that in 2023. He considered that. I haven't heard anybody speculate that he might run in 2027, but who knows? Governor's races here are different. It's not a closed Republican primary. Everybody votes. It's an open, it's called jungle primary. Everybody votes in the first round. The top two go to a runoff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So in theory, two Republicans could get to a runoff and the more normal Republican could win with votes from Republicans and Democrats and independents. It's possible. It's, it's, It's an outside chance. But if you're Bill Cassidy, that is a more conceivable path to me than running for reelection to the Senate for him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And doing that, I think it would benefit him to have a more of an independent reputation. And then there's the legacy. This is a person that's been a conservative senator. He could leave and retire and be proud of his career as a doctor and as a conservative senator who was somebody that represented the interests of Louisiana and only bucked the party line two times.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
One time when Donald Trump attempted a coup. And one time when Donald Trump tried to put an insane person in charge of the health agency in this country. And that is the type of resume that eventually, when the dust settles on all this, gets you a statue or an airport name or something. That is the kind of thing that is in the top of your obituary.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So if you're Bill Cassidy, you have the chance to do what you know is right, to do what is right politically, to do what is right for your legacy if you oppose the nomination of RFK to be the head of HHS. So I hope you do that, Bill Cassidy. I hope you do the right thing. And if you're listening and you do not live in Louisiana, I asked my husband, the lobbyist, about this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
If you do not live in Louisiana, do not call Bill Cassidy's office. If you live in California, do not call Bill Cassidy's office. That is not helpful. If you live in Louisiana... If you live here or if you have family that live here, tell them to do this. Call his office. Email him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
If you happen to be a big money donor, maybe send a text message through that you'd love to support that governor's campaign. If you live in Louisiana. Do what you can to encourage Bill Cassidy to do the right thing, because the way that the math works, it becomes very challenging for RFK to get through if the committee chairman, the Republican committee chairman opposes him.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
So not getting our hopes up. I'm not being loosey with the football. We're saying, come on, Bill, you can do this. You got it. Go Tigers. Big win for the women's basketball team last night. I'm going to be there on Sunday watching the game. Do it. Be proud. You got this. Bill Cassidy. Say no to RFK. All right. Up next, Andrew Weissman. All right.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
We should not despair and be without all hope that somebody might do the right thing in these moments. I'm not saying we should be gullible or taken advantage of or be loosey with the football here, but... In strategic moments and moments of conscience and crisis, sometimes people do the right thing. We saw it with Mike Pence. We've seen it before.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I'm here with former FBI general counsel and former Justice Department prosecutor, also lead prosecutor in Bob Mueller's investigation of Russia interference in the 2016 election. He's now a professor of practice at NYU Law School, co-host of MSNBC's podcast, Main Justice. And he started a sub stack. Who hasn't? It's Behind the Headlines with Andrew Wiseman. Hey, Andrew. Hi. How are you?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
What's happening? Oh, nothing. There's nothing. Keeps me up. It's such a slow news period. Yeah. You don't have much on your plate, you know? Just kind of hanging out, decorating the apartment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Yeah, that was nice. And then the inverse of it, like last night between, I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
10 30 and 11 30 i was angry tweeting like that wasn't something i didn't do that really that much in 20 in 2022 i wouldn't say but such is life i have you here because we want to talk cash and the cash patel hearing yesterday and then the various other legal brouhahas but before we just kind of get into your wheelhouse can we just have a little amuse bouche can we just do one for kicks
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Let's go for it. Okay. The Vice President of the United States, one of the most appalling people in the country. I want to play a little audio of him talking about... You're not a Catholic, I don't think, Weissman. I'm stereotyping. But as a cradle Catholic, sometimes we get a little... a little bent out of shape about the adult converts. I like that cradle convert. Yeah, we're the OG here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And so I don't really like being lectured by people that decided that they were Catholic two seconds ago. But let's listen to J.D. Vance's understanding of Catholic doctrine.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And then after that, that's very common.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Jesus was like Bethlehem first. Immigrants come last. Bethlehem first, Egypt last. It was a very common thing. So he got made fun of on the internet for this. And our vice president was tweeting a lot yesterday. He was tweeting this. Yeah, absolutely. This false arrogance drives so much elite failure over the last 40 years. Who the fuck even knows what IQ numbers are?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And then just as a little bonus for him on his tweet storm, he also started weighing in on taking down of the Mark Milley picture from the Pentagon in favor, obviously. And he writes this, the vice president again. Imagine having lived through the last 10 years, the desecration of Washington, Jefferson, Lee, Roosevelt, and even Lincoln, and then drawing the line at Mark Milley.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And I think that there's a chance that my Senator Bill Cassidy might do the right thing. So I want to send a message to him and to you guys. But first, let's listen to a little bit of his closing statement from the RFK Jr.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
I'm going to read that list one more time in case you missed it. The desecration of Washington, Jefferson, Lee, Roosevelt, and even Lincoln. He just snuck Lee in there, you know, just like right in the middle of the list. Just those little, just those little winky wink to the Confederates.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Hello and welcome to the Bullwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got my friend Andrew Weissman up here in a minute to talk about Kash Patel and the various legal issues swirling around the second Trump administration. But I want to talk first about my senator here in Louisiana, Bill Cassidy. I've frequently... been talking about avoiding the temptation to slip into nihilism.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Yeah. I mean, he's third at best because we've got the shadow president that we'll get to in a little bit. That's true. I hear everything that you said except for more traditional vice president. Traditionally, vice presidents aren't really shit posting. Honestly, if you told me... If the New York Times Maggie Haberman dropped a story tomorrow and she was like, I've got this big exclusive.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
And she gave me a little tip. And it was like, J.D. Vance is actually behind the Twitter feed and wokeness. He's like tweeting from the vice president's office and wokeness. I'd be like, okay, that sounds right to me. And he is indistinguishable from like a random MAGA troll. Fair enough. Which is a little unusual, I guess, for the vice president. Fair enough. Sorry to nitpick, Andrew.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
Sorry to nitpick. Words matter. And as some evidence for that, I want to start with one clip from the Kash Patel hearing that really tickled me. And then we'll get into the more serious matters from the Kash Patel confirmation. Let's listen to him and Adam Schiff kind of having a little linguistic battle over the word we.
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
It goes on for another minute. Obviously, we're talking about the J6 choir there that Cash was a producer of. And we found out that Bulwark reporting actually found out that some of the singers in the choir were among the violent insurrectionists, not just the insurrectionists that were wandering around. So I don't know. You are a prosecutor, not me. Would that really work for you?
The Bulwark Podcast
Andrew Weissmann: A MAGAtocracy and a Babytocracy
You know, if somebody was talking about how like we robbed a bank and then he's like, I was talking about the editorial, the royal we, not me.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Feels like you clapped louder for Sarah. That's okay. I love being at the Howler Theater. I had some great jazz brunches here back in the day when I lived around the corner. This is an awesome venue. Thank you for hosting us. I also love Libertarians, by the way. Libertarians are so cute. You know, talking about the power of the state and all the terms. And I just, I really do.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I enjoy libertarians and I kind of, I was excited about doing this debate because I like to have fun. And when I heard, when Peter told me about the premise, I was like, this is so silly and frivolous and libertarian. Like, I don't know, I can have a couple of drinks up here and we can talk about this. Because the reality is that grownups in politics have to make a choice about things.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Politics is not about our self-actualization. It's not about deciding to feel good about oneself. It is about the process by which we organize our society. We organize our society to best ensure that our fellow citizens are able to live and prosper and achieve their dreams and be free. And that's what we have to do.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
We get together and we create these systems and these systems are imperfect and they're kind of broken and often they suck. They suck in Chicago and San Francisco, as you point out. I live in Louisiana. Let me tell you, not knocking it out of the park with the government down there. Potholes, not great, all right? So the systems suck. You end up with choices that aren't great.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
But if you want to have a say in the process,
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
you have to pick a side it doesn't mean you have to be a tribalist it doesn't mean you have to apologize unapologetically be on one side i mean last year i voted for a republican that was running for governor of louisiana that was obviously gonna lose uh because he was running against a worse republican uh but i chose a side in that in that race uh in the presidential election we obviously chose a side and i thought that
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
As Sarah pointed out, one of the options was very clearly unacceptable. But in local elections, for your city council, sometimes you're like, I don't know. I can't tell the difference between these two sides. And maybe it's not worth it to get involved. But most of the time, you make a choice that most aligns with your values.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And you think best will achieve positive results for your fellow citizens. That is the whole point of politics. That is what we are doing here. And I find it kind of weird. This is the only area of life where you face two choices. They're imperfect. And you decide that the high-minded thing is to say, I'm going to fuck it. I'm going to do nothing. I'm not going to decide.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I mean, I think about, for example... Over Thanksgiving, I've got to go to rural West Virginia to see my in-laws. Not great. The in-laws are great. Rural West Virginia, not great. Also, the governing. They're not knocking it out of the park either.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
But we can either drive 11 hours or we can fly and pay $1,000 and then drive two hours over the hills that make me nauseous where there's no cell phone service. Neither option's great. It's kind of like Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. It's not going to be like Jeff Landry and Sean Wilson. Neither option is great. But I've got to decide.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I could say no and not go see people for Thanksgiving, not involve myself in society, and that's fine. But guess what? Thanksgiving comes up the next November. I've got to decide again. If you are living in a neighborhood with a bad school district and you have children, you can say, well, I can pay money to send them to private school. Maybe I can afford that. I can make that choice.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Or I can send them to the public school. That's kind of shitty. Those aren't great choices. A lot of people, that's a challenging choice. You can opt out and say, I guess I'm going to homeschool. But the reality is you have to make a choice for your family. You have to make a choice that's better for your kids and your grandkids. And that's what politics is.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
At the end of the day, you have to make a choice for what's going to be better for you and the people around you. And it doesn't mean you have to put on a team jersey and defend everything that your choice does. But it does mean that you got to decide. I flew. We landed in Roanoke. It was really unpleasant.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Can I rebut that just briefly? I just think as a broader point, I don't think that it turns you into a maroon to have to decide between options and to identify what the worst thing would be for values that you care about, whether it be freedom or something else. Like, again, I gladly chose Kamala Harris. When Joe Biden was going to be the nominee this time, I was going to happily choose Joe Biden.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Sometimes you have to pick one that is obviously better, that is obviously preferable. I think Joe Biden was very selfish to decide to run again. I think he has made some mistakes I really disagree with. And yet it was pretty easy. And I criticized him publicly. I wasn't like, oh, I love everything about him. We said this publicly all the time.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Well, how do you know he's not an extinction-level threat? I would say this. If we flew back, if we got a little DeLorean and flew back to 2014 and we all came here before Shaw had totally gentrified and we met together at a bar... And I said, Nick, I have this photo of you. I have this photo for you.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And it was a photo of people, of Trump flags over the Capitol building, smoke above over the Capitol building, cops being just like this attacked by people waving American flags, the blue line or Confederate flags. It showed you a series of photos. And I was like, this will happen in five years from now. if we elect Donald Trump, you would have looked at me like I was an insane person.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
You would have looked at me and been like, no way. And then I'll say, get this. It'll happen, and then he'll run again, and you won't pick a side. You would have been like, Tim, no way. No way that could possibly happen.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I'm not trying to convince him. I'm just trying to tell you what happened, man. I'm just trying to tell you what happened.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I understand. Because you invited the bulwark. Yes, because we invited the bulwark. Could have invited somebody else. Could have invited Mother Jones. Talked about climate change or something.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Yeah, I guess. And I would just say it is axiomatically true that you do not have to pick a side. So maybe I've conceded the debate already to the other side. So, yes, like random people don't have to pick a side. But what do you do now?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
It's like, I voted for my asset dealer.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I am voting for Cornel West.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Sometimes the times call for shrieking. Sometimes the times call for shrieking. I don't know why shrieking is necessarily a pejorative. I think that there are a lot of very dangerous things that are happening. I feel like I can both shriek and keep my wits about me at the same time. And I think there are some very, very real and serious threats that face us over the next four years.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And I think that we should speak about them clearly.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Okay, I would have thought the majority or the plurality of people. That was a key part of the effort then.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
The point is that there's sometimes things that are worse than other things, and you can observe them directly and decide what and do threats assessments.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Here's something that I would do now in front of this audience. I'd say, look, we have a threat in front of us. And that is Kash Patel running the FBI. I think it's probably the most dangerous pick that is out there. He's certainly not up to the task. He's not up to the task, but it's also not up to the task.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
He was a key member of the attempt to overturn the election. He's demonstrated that he wants to act with vengeance against Donald Trump's foes. He said so in the book that goes against fundamentally against people's freedoms. And look, there are libertarians in the Senate right now. Rand Paul. People should be saying, you should, you have to choose. You have to pick a side.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Do you think that Kash Patel should be the FBI director of this country or not? I would think that a magazine that would supposedly, I would assume would have some influence over the one libertarian senator. Might want to make some suggestions. Do you think that we want to pick a side here? That person is... So I think that there are proactive things you can do.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
tim rep in colorado sarah longwell do you have a prop oh i see where this is going sarah's just bringing heat tonight i don't know if you guys recognize these
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Tim Miller, you have a bag. I do have a bag.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
You're about to find out. Who's hungry? Who's the hungriest person out here? All right. Come on up here, sir. Come on up here, sir. Come join us. Come join us up here on stage. Can we get him up? Let's let him stand right there, actually. That's much easier. Here you go. I would like you to hold this. He's got a Sarah's Always Right sticker. I should have picked one of the reason people.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Here we go. I've got two items for you here. I've got this chicken Vienna sausage can. It expired in 2022. I bought it at the corner store, and it's got chicken broth in it. I've also got these peanut butter crackers. Not great. Kind of generic peanut butter crackers. I also have some really yummy cookies over here, and they might be pot cookies. We'll see. So you have an option here.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
We're going to vote. You can choose between the crackers or the chicken Vienna sausage that expired, or could I interest you in the pot cookies? but the crowd gets to decide which one of these you have to eat. Ooh, that could be fun. That could be fun. That's kind of interesting, right? It's like, I don't have to choose. I get to have a cookie. But then everybody else gets to decide what I want.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Which one, what would you like to go with, sir? I'd like to choose. Okay, what would you like to choose? The crackers. Congratulations. The good news is... Good news is I'd like to give Peter Suderman the Vienna sausage.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I'll answer very briefly. I would not have changed my position. My loathing and contempt for the selfishness of the current president of the United States, frankly, has only cost us subscribers to the bull market. It usually gets people throwing tomatoes at me.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
But he still would have been vastly preferable to Donald Trump for all the reasons that Sarah Longwell laid out, and he had a capable vice president.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
How would that work? Can I have a quick follow-up? How would you enthusiastically support and write about somebody that you find really great?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
If it were Javier Millay versus Bernie, you would not choose a side in that.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
All right. Stroking out. I'm so annoyed that I haven't seen Michael Steele when I called a person up here for a prop. I wanted to get you some of that Vienna sausage.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
We have another question. I would have traded Sarah for her, had I known that was an option.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Not whether... The civil rights movement was nonpartisan? Yeah. I mean, not in these states. That would have been news to MLK and George Wallace that they weren't picking the sides, that there weren't sides on that. Like, yeah, sure, back then...
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
parties back then the parties were not assorted the way the parties are now so there were people with there were pro-civil rights people and anti-civil rights people on both parties but that doesn't mean that there weren't obvious sides between you know north between northern democrats and like Well, they weren't partisan because we were in different partisan times, but people chose a side.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
It wasn't like Martin Luther King was like, oh, I'm so neutral on this one.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
But if you were... But there were pro-civil rights candidates and anti-civil rights running for office. They might have been in different parties in different states, but there were people who were for civil rights and they were running against people who were against civil rights. So Martin Luther King had a side in those races.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Yeah, I've got bad news for you. Life sucks and is filled with bad choices. And like, here's the thing, as a former moderate Republican who's now like an independent quasi Democrat, whatever you want to call me, like, I don't, I don't foresee any future where there's going to be a candidate that's like, man, I am down the line with Tim. I want permanent daylight savings time. I'm a Yimby.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I really like gay stuff. I want to cut red tape. Like I, you know, I, they believe that America has a great role in the world. Like, like that candidate's not walking through the door. All right. Like Jared Polis is pretty good out there, governor of Colorado. But like, besides that,
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
candidates not walking through the door and so you know you can still assess uh what is again going back to my opening statement like which candidate is going to do the best to allow people to live a life of purpose of purpose and meaning like that's my north star you can and sometimes you can look at them and say i don't i don't think that there will be a big difference
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
uh but most of the time you'll be able to and you can choose that side and then you can still advocate for yimby housing or whatever else that you do and you can agitate the person you voted for they're probably more likely to listen to you if you if you called them up you're like hey i'm a supporter you got to focus you know one of the things is don't think about politics uh and i guess i could stop right there but to take it a step further don't think about politics as oh the president gets elected and then they're caesar and everything you know whatever they want
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I'm not high right now. Could you repeat that? Those cookies are still there.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I mean, I would argue that they've, again, that they've made a choice. In this theory, they're choosing to engage, but they're choosing to say, I reject both. Yeah, I mean, I guess I would say that technically that's a choice within the rubric of this conversation.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
We also did see this, actually. I'm sorry, we saw this with Undeclared. It took me a second to get the question in my mind. We just saw this. They chose a side. Like, there were a bunch of people in the Democratic Party that went out and said, no, I'm not choosing Joe Biden. And that was a choice.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
You were hoping Kamala Harris was going to win? Do you think your followers do you think like you have a lot of social media? Absolutely.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Thank you guys so much for having me. Are you going to show us what's in the bag? No, it's just cookies. I've been a little bit of a smartass tonight because I do think some of this is a little silly, so I'm going to be earnest for a second first. And the thing is, like, I do like politics. Nick is pretty... I wish I was as cool as Nick, and I kind of...
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
affect not caring about politics sometimes in order to offer that cool. But I'm a Model UN dork at heart. I care about politics. I care about government. That's why I do this. That's why I wake up every morning and talk about it every day. That's why I worked on campaigns and volunteered on campaigns. So I text my friends about it even when I'm not working.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And I just think that it's important that we all do the best we can to try to make things better. And we're not all going to agree on what that looks like. I certainly don't agree, I think, with a lot of even my own podcast listeners about what the best way for government to look would be. But I think that it's really important that we try to engage in civic discourse.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
We try to make our society a little bit better. We try to protect people's freedoms. We try to have a positive influence on the world. And I think by having an affected distance from that, you remove the ability to make a difference. You're not going to make a difference every time.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Sometimes people are going to vote for people you didn't like and you could argue or act or work or try and people could reject you. But luckily, at least for now in this country, you get another opportunity to do it again and again. And I think that right now we're facing a very, very serious time. And I hope that the threats are not as serious as I assess them to be, but I worry they are.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And I think that this is not a moment to not pick a side. It is a moment to pick a side. And frankly, I think it's absolutely critical that people pick a side and get involved. And I thank you all for having me today.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Just by choosing to vote, haven't we already won? Yeah. Think about it that way. I don't know. Bring the guy up with the... Closing arguments are done. With the blunt.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Look at all the double haters.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
I'm gonna storm the Capitol if you guys pick Nick. I'm gonna let you know that.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
Going to be at four seasons total landscaping, demanding a recount. The chicken sausage is looking better.
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
And we win getting rid of him. What kind of skills does he have?
The Bulwark Podcast
'The Hottest Circle of Hell Is for Those Who Stay Neutral'
All right. Do people at Reason have lice? I don't know. I haven't hung out with the libertarians in a while. Am I concerned about the hair?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
between Mike Johnson and the Democrats was scuttled by Elon's megalomania and possibly ketamine use. We don't know. Mike Johnson attempted to fix it by stripping down the deal a little bit and getting Daddy Trump on board ahead of time, which probably should have done the first time, gotten approval from Daddy. But even still, 38 Republicans voted against it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It was just so North Korea-y yesterday, like even more than usual. Just like, like there was just no underlying ideological message. Because they just wanted to win.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
They got to own them harder, you know? Well, they got to own Mike Johnson. Mike Johnson's the new lib, which is why I think he's on thin ice. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, the happy part of me is this kind of we get to sit here and laugh and point and chuckle at their incompetence.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The dark side of me is like, man, if it continues to be this kind of a shit show and things look really, really bad in two years... and we have an 80-year-old sundowning Trump, might then the cults decide that they need to turn to a darker sort of vision for the future. And that's the thing that really has me a little concerned about it. So there you go. Don't be too happy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
From big events to silly moments you capture every day, doesn't it sometimes feel like all your favorite photos are just stuck on your camera roll? Wouldn't it be great to have an easy way to share and enjoy them with friends and family? That's where Aura comes in.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Named the number one digital photo frame by Wirecutter, Aura makes it effortless to upload unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone, so your favorite memories are always within view. Plus, you can personalize and preload an Aura frame for a truly special, unforgettable gift. I mentioned this yesterday, but this is a good example of what we're talking about, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You think about the oral frame. You think about the photos that you're going to send. You're like, oh, my aunt might need to see some photos of her life. But it's also fun just for your friends. It's fun for your office. It's a fun place to dump all these photos that we're talking about.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
When I was in Longwell, Sarah Longwell's office yesterday, it's the photos from our bus tour, the Bulwark bus tour. It's the photos from people hanging out together in the office. You take all these dumb photos. What are you doing with them? This way, you can get an Aura frame, put it up in your office, and throw out the photos of you and your colleagues.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
They get excited to see themselves when they walk in. It was a great idea. So happy Sarah did it. Save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver mat frames by using promo code BULLWORK at checkout. That's A-U-R-A frames.com, promo code BULLWORK. This deal is exclusive to listeners. So get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
They're taking a third swing this morning. The last I saw, Florida Rep. Annapolina Luna said that they are not negotiating with Democrats, which means they're going to need to get every single Republican on board. And boy, I don't see that as very likely. But I'm wondering what your takeaways are from the shit show over on Capitol Hill and the possible government shutdown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You wrote for The Atlantic. I did. It's an appropriate place to write. You wrote about people who aren't engaged in politics and how to reach them. And so, obviously, the right place to go for that was The Atlantic.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Even if we don't agree, the headline was the conversation Dems need to have. And so we're two white guys with podcasts. So we'll have that conversation right now. And it was even if we don't agree with the views of leftists or liberals or never Trumpers or mega Republicans, we understand them or at least think we do.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The people whose views we don't understand tend to be the people who simply don't follow politics that closely. And yet that's most Americans. And you're arguing that the thing that the Dems should be focusing on is how to reach those people. And you feel like the current The current trajectory isn't great on that count. So why don't you talk about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You know, you wrote about kind of in 2016 that there was a lot of like, well, there was misogyny at play here. And, you know, that there's obviously this conversation about how there's this misinformation and the disinformation of the Russians. And this time it's like, well, there could be racism and misogyny and inflation was a problem and Biden was too old. We're going to get to that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And like all those things are kind of true, right? But they also are alibis. You know, they also are alibis to having to actually go out there and convince people that the other alternative for governing is superior.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
in other media bubbles and having people that have non-MAGA views represented in other spaces. I think I played the audio from my friend, from our guy Stavros, who's a comedian from, I think his podcast was called Come Town. And he went on one of these bro podcasts and crushed it. I gave the best answer that I've heard yet for not voting for Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I'll put in the show notes for people if you haven't seen it. But what is the right balance of vote? Where is your focus on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I'm a Wickler stan. I'm neutral on the DNC race. Nobody's knocked my socks off yet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
There was a bald guy on MSNBC talking about how the Democrats should learn more from Trump and how they should do tax cuts. The Trump tax cuts were really great. And he's running for DNC chair. I thought it was performance art. I saw it on the plane yesterday.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
We're going to get him booked on Potsdam. America, he has some interesting points. Definitely more corporate tax cuts, I think, is the path back for the Democrats.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Awful, awful. Every ad that I've seen trying to target low-info voters is like, a parody of an attempt to do it. So like all of the ad wizards out there working on this, like you just got to start like throw everything in the trash and start from square zero.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You got to bring some people in the room that are like, forget about Tony Blinken. I don't know who Dan Quayle is. I don't even know what you're talking about. I've never heard of Jake Tapper. If you've heard of Jake Tapper, get him out of the room.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Hey, guys, if you listen to this podcast, you care about what's going on in the world. And, you know, we're doing our best here at The Bulwark as we grow to expand out reporting, reported commentary, no bullshit insight. But all of this stuff is based on people doing shoe leather reporting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
People going out there and gathering sources and going around the world and educating us about what's happening in the world. And one of the places that's out there still doing that is the Washington Post. And this podcast is sponsored by the Washington Post.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
When you go to washingtonpost.com slash the bulwark, our listeners can get an exclusive deal to subscribe for just 50 cents per week for your first year. If you listen to us, you know the great work the Washington Post does on a bunch of topics. We got Catherine Rampell that comes on. We got Carol Lennig. She's covering the Secret Service.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Probably the best reporter on the beat out there at the Secret Service. Across the board, my man Josh Jossie doing politics. Also, if you're in a rush and need to catch up quickly on the day's most important and interesting stories, the Post the 7 newsletter is a quick commute read sent each weekday morning. The Post even offers a cool feature for audio lovers like you.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You can actually listen to articles in addition to reading them. So you can tackle your to-do list and catch up on the news at the same time. Now more than ever, it's important to stay up to date on the world. So go to washingtonpost.com slash the bulwark to subscribe for just 50 cents per week for your first year. That's 80% off their typical offer. So this is truly a steal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Once again, that's washingtonpost.com backslash the bulwark to subscribe for just 50 cents per week for your first year. Here's another concern I have about the low info ecosystem, particularly on the left, that some of the folks are getting radicalized in a way that I find concerning. I would as a former Republican.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
So, you know, maybe some libs can dismiss my views, but you're a Democrat in good standing. So I want to talk to you about this. I had a friend that texted me. Goodish standing. I had a friend that texted me, and I don't know why they were on the Pod Save America Reddit page. I don't know if you are ever, but apparently it was in shambles over your lack of support for vigilante assassinations.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Another person messaged me about how you, Jon Favreau, your Twitter replies were filled with people outraged that you Twittered a tweet about how the Democrats might want to moderate on immigration. I'm wondering what your sense is of the extent right now of the backlash on the left and whether some of the lessons might be to move into a place that's a little concerning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The assassination bothered you or the conversation?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Yeah, my big takeaway from that is that I think it says something nice about you, that you have your friends that are willing to be that honest with you to tell you that they don't think it might be that bad.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
One exception. Yeah. I mean, Bill Ayer's puppet, Barack Obama, did get into the presidency. So maybe it has worked one time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I'm going to be a little less generous to your critics than you are because there's a poll that came out recently about approval of Luigi's actions in this murder assassination. And if you break it down by age, it's just reverse. It's just reverse. The oldest, it has the lowest approval among the elderly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I think most of my friends would be scared to offer that opinion to me for fear that I'd browbeat them and get into a screaming text match or that I would derail the LSU game by yelling at them about their... about how sanguine they are in the face of the authoritarian threat. So that's nice.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Slightly more, but not really very much among Gen X. Slightly more, concerningly slightly more, but still not very high among our people, the millennials. And then, well, not Tommy, he's Gen X. And then... That's awesome.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
A big amount of support, like a third to 40%, depending on the poll, among Gen Z. And so, the people that have the least actual exposure to the healthcare system... Yeah, because if you're under 26, you can be on your parents' health insurance thanks to the affordable care.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Right. They're the ones with the most righteous rage... That just doesn't fucking square for me. I know that there are people under 26 or under 30 that have had horrible experiences with the healthcare system through their parents or through themselves or their friends. Certainly some. But the math doesn't work.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
At scale, if the healthcare system is so horrible and oppressive and we're at such a horrendous state that vigilante assassinations are necessary, then you would think that the people that have... had to experience the trauma of that for the longest and the most acutely. The people that have the most health problems, old people, would share the view.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
So to me, it seems like there is at least some bandwagon effect. Maybe there's some genuine rage among Gen Z, but then there's a bandwagon effect that is very real and alarming.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I like that about you. We'll get to that more. The lack of ideology. I'm here in, I should have said this at the top, I'm here in Phoenix for a maga cella. And I saw Steve Bannon last night and Tucker and Ben Shapiro, all your faves. Yeah. And so I want to talk about that. But your point It relates to what I experienced last night is there is no ideological through line here, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Okay. One more thing on this for you. It relates back to Elon. And this is something that I really struggle with as at the norms loving never Trumper is I think one thing that is objectively true is is that the Democrats cannot continue to be the party of the status quo. It's like we have to protect these institutions. We've got to save and defend them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
This hurts me because I think the institutions are working pretty good. They're not perfect. They're pretty good. I still have my small C conservative inside me somewhere, which is like, Maybe we should just keep the good stuff and not rock the boat too much, you know, because what comes next might be worse, you know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And yet, I recognize that politically, that's not very potent right now, to say the least. So, how can the Democrats regain this mantle of challenging the status quo, of being rebellious without becoming the party of vigilante assassination?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And today I'm here with the co-founder of Crooked Media, co-host of Pond Save America. You might have heard of it. He also has a podcast, Offline. He was Obama's speechwriter from 2005 to 2013. It's Jon Favreau. What's going on, man?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Speaking of Joe Biden, the Wall Street Journal had a story yesterday talking about how they were managing his age inside the administration. Early in the administration, there was a directive that meetings should be short. They tried to make them later in the day.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The Democratic chairman of the Armed Services Committee, Adam Smith, said he never got Biden on the phone one time, said he talked to Obama several times when he was a much less senior congressman. Jim Himes said the same. So these are Democrats on the record. Cabinet meetings were tightly scripted and barely happened. Donors noticed the decline on calls. Staff wouldn't show him bad news, I guess.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
We're showing him clips that was only good news, according to the story. I'm mad about this. I was thinking this morning. When I think about the biggest political fuck-ups of my life, non-Donald Trump category, I was really thinking about this. And I decided that George W. going into Iraq was the one, two, and three. It has the entire podium on the biggest fuck-ups of my life.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Like the Republicans have voted against this. Like some of them voted against it because they wanted their little special line item that they liked that got cut out at the last second. Some of them voted against it because they don't like debt limit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Mitch McConnell not convicting Donald Trump in January of 2021 was number four. And Biden's selfish behavior this year is number five. or number three, depending on how you want to count it. I think it was just absolutely catastrophic and I'm pretty enraged by it. I'm wondering what you thought reading the Wall Street Journal story.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You might've put a number one. I went through every administration in my mind. I was like, I didn't really count. I was eight, I was six for Reagan when he raised that. So I was like, HW, Clinton. It's like Monica. No, this is worse than Obama.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Some of them voted against it because they just like positioning themselves as the craziest son of a bitch out there that just wants to burn everything down. They think that's a good brand for them. Elon, the difference between the two bills, what was it exactly that Elon didn't like about the first bill that he liked about the second bill? It's not clear.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I sat and thought about this too, their advisors this morning for a little bit. And I was like, I thought about myself. I put myself in their shoes. It's hard to put myself in the shoes of people like we're with them for 30 years. I never had that type of relationship, but there was, there was a second layer of people too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And I was like, I probably would have tried to position him as best as possible up until that debate. I probably would have done the same things up until that debate, I think. I probably would have been wrong to do it, but I think I probably would have. But there's no way that – and I can say this because I did it in 2012.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I went out and I said to a boss, I was like, no, I'm not going to go out and do this. I was like, I would not have gone out and spun – Like, oh, did you see the rally in Norfolk? Like how vigorous he was? I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have done it. I would have quit. And nobody quit. Like nobody quit. Nobody pushed him. Nobody forced it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Like some of them spoke on background at the New York Times. I guess it was maybe the best thing he could do. You know, from that. And then to me, like the grave sin of all this is that The thing that makes me the most upset really is that he, the selfishness continued, continues to now, right now, right? It continues right now to December 20th.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Like that when he finally came to terms with the fact that he needed to drop out, he needed to bring the vice president into the Oval Office or wherever they meet to Delaware and be like, kid, you do what you need to fucking do. All right. You push the old guy onto the train. Like we got to save this country. You do what you need to do. That's what he needed to do. And he did the opposite.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Like the whole year, he was like, they were whining to people that Kamala wasn't giving him enough credit. And like now after the election, he seems like they've been nicer to Trump than they've been to Kamala in the post-election.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It is a motley collaboration of people that is united really only by one thing, which is like... we'd like Donald Trump and we don't like the libs.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
The message in that Midas Touch interview was just like, again, I think that's maybe the frustrating thing. It's like, I just, I think I cared more. I think I believed it more, the democracy stuff, than he actually believed it. I think that he cared more about his legacy than that, and that's very disappointing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Oh, brother, Favreau. Yeah, it's tough. And then people are like, well, I don't, you know, I get it. So we were like, I don't want to hear about this. I don't want to talk about this, but I'm like, I'm still, you know, probably when I'm 80 years old, I'm still going to be talking about all three of the things on the, on the list there. Yep. You know, like Iraq was quite a while ago as well.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It still comes up from time to time. The Mitch McConnell thing. I mean, if I see Josh Holmes at age 75 walking down the street, I'm going to be pointing my bony little finger in his chest. They're like, you did this. So, you know, that's just me. Maybe that's not it. Some people move on. That's just me. All right. I've set you up for the crying now. Okay. You're emotional. You're mad at Joe Biden.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You're thinking about the health care murder. When you started keeping it 1600, Barack Obama was still president. Yeah. So that was a while ago. How are you feeling about all this? Yeah. You know, like, you know, if George Stephen Hoppus has Joe Biden, how would you feel at the end of the election? How do you feel about doing all this every day?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You haven't had a moment of doubt in the last month that the American idea is an American idea worth fighting for?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Are your hopes not capped though? Okay, sure. Yeah, sure. I still have hope. I still hope things are better. But like, is there not something fundamentally changed about your, like, do you feel like you've lost some of your capacity for it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I forgot we have that in common. You were a Jevi too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
A more Favreau-ish, hopeful podcast host would end on grace. That'd be a good place to end. But I want to take one more pass at you about trying to, I want to try to rip this hope from your soul one more time before we go to Christmas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It's just something I just thought about for the first time this week. Teddy, when he goes to school in like five years, and they have on the wall, they have the picture of the presidents. Donald Trump's going to be on there two times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he is. Two times. And so, like, it's going to look up there and it's going to be like, look at this.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Look at this great list of white men who fought for everybody's right for liberty and pursuit of happiness, equality. These great people that you're supposed to aspire to. And the worst person in the country. Like, really, America's worst human. Only two of the last three.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
That's the best you can go? You're a good dad. Seriously. I was hoping, though, in unseriousness, to get you to downgrade America in the Obama spirit. Belgians think that Belgium is great, too. Malaysians think Malaysia is great, too. We're just not actually that special. I was trying to get you to downgrade us in the spirit of what from whence you came.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
But no, you're still feeling the American exceptionalism in there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
one or two or three or four republicans at most at least for the first couple months while they fill out those special elections so yeah it's not going to be easy for them the musk thing do you have thoughts on on chairman musk i mean he's he's the shadow president uh potentially the speaker of the house also the largest government contractor yep
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I appreciate all of you, all my friends out there. They're like, ooh, have you seen this story? Yes. Have you seen this? Yes. I've fucking seen it, okay? I'm online, all right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I'm going to tell you this. This is what I'm going to do. And this is a step up for me. I'm not going to bring it onto the mountain. That's good. How about that? Like at lunch when I'm skiing, I'm not going to be on Twitter. So that's it. I still will probably be tweeting on Christmas night after I've had a few drinks. We're looking for progress there.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
All right. Jon Favreau, thank you so much for a good show, a long show, kind of a meaty show for everybody. Since I'm gone next week, people needed every single second of this, and I hope they enjoyed it. Everybody else, you have a Merry Christmas. We'll see you back here Monday. What will it be? Monday, December 29th. Because of the bulwark, we work.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
you know okay this is america we work here we have the good old fashion republican work ethic john favre will be back for you with pods of america i don't know what february 14th or something after a little french january 6th we're back january 6th big celebration yeah it will be wild bye tim we'll see y'all later if we make it through december
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
It seems like there's some potential conflicts there. I think in the same Mike Lee clip that you referenced, you talked about how Musk could drain the swamp. Is there a precedent for somebody that is this deep into all of the different levers of government in addition to owning a media platform, a social media platform?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
He's also on the take from the Chinese. I'm going to be bringing that up with Steve Bannon when I see him here in a couple hours. That feels like something that could potentially be a conflict, to have the Speaker of the House and shadow president and biggest government contractor also being on the take from the Chinese.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
We're going to hold a lot of space together, actually. At the very end of this podcast, I'm going to endeavor to make you cry like John Lovett did when he was last on. I'm telling you, you're going to have a tough time. His tears were on Jesse Waters' show. So if we don't have a clip from this podcast show up on Jesse Waters' show, it is going to be a disappointment.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I want to get more into the Jon Favreau anti-corporate populist in the Democrat section before. I'm curious your take on whether this is usually what you would ask me on Pod Save America, but we're going to flip the mic around. What's with these Republicans? Do you think Mike Johnson can survive? I want to play you a clip from my buddy Bannon last night.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Kind of a half-hearted no there from the crowd, but still didn't hear a lot of yeses. Do you think Mike survives?
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
You know, he doesn't really fit also. I mean, Elon with the drug use and like the many, why like both Elon and Trump have the many wives, the womanizing, they, I think like naked women, it seems like Mike Johnson, on the other hand, monitoring each other's porn intake. It's a key difference. It doesn't feel like, you know, if you're going to bro down, he's the guy at the top of the list.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Steve, later in that clip, said he doesn't have the moxie.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Well, if you're concerned about the gerontocracy... That would be Actually it would be Appropriate Passing of the torch In the late American Republic From President Biden And President Grassley Yeah That gives us something To hope for Keep up the energy Do you think he'll stay Do you think he'll survive Johnson I think it's 50-50.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And I've been saying, I think because of inertia, I'd put it a little bit above 50-50 just because it's like you can't beat somebody with nobody. It even took a long time to get rid of Mike Kevin, even though they wanted to get rid of Mike Kevin for a long time. It's an impossible job. So it's not like if there was a clear...
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
MAGA alternative with Moxie, who was an actual congressman, not Vivek Ramaswamy in this big forehead, then sure. I think they could get rid of him for sure. For him to survive, his challenge now is he's going to have to squeeze out this CR with just Republican votes, unless the Dems bail him out. The Dems aren't going to bail him out, right? I've been kind of impressed.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I think I did. I don't remember. Or maybe I was sensitive about it. I might have not sent it because I felt bad for it. But it's been a few weeks, so now the scars have built up. No, I think it's funny. We'll find the archive. Before we get to tears...
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I will say, the Dems have shown some backbone on this. You could imagine a different Democratic Party that would have been a little bit
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I've been impressed with the Democrats. I wanted them to let him walk the plank, and they have been letting him walk the plank. It's an impossible job to begin with. And while we're just being happy for a second before we kind of get into the depths of despair, I do think about like the lame duckness of Trump might limit his urbanist power somewhat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is the last daily Bulwark Podcast out of the year. I'll be back. I'm not like my guest who's taken off, who knows, a whole month, I think, working on French time. I'll be back the Monday after Christmas. But next week I'm going skiing. I need it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And so that's kind of a double-edged sword because on the one hand, I think, again, it will, you know, maybe prevent some of the authoritarian stuff we're worried about. On the other hand, it might make them start doing some of this. I want to play a little bit more from Bannon last night. And one last thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
msnbc fuck you nobody watches more msnbc than that guy and your mother i mean like they're the top two msnbc viewers on the marketplace and he still so so it's a little performative there to be like fuck you but they're gonna have to start doing this don't you think like pretending like trump might run again in order for him to maintain his hold or is that is that wishful thinking
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
And before we get to talking about your Atlantic article about what the Democrats are doing wrong, which might also lead to tears, we need to talk about what's happening on the Hill. By the time we have this podcast up, the state of play might have changed some, but biggest picture, here's what we got. There was a bipartisan deal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Mike Davis wanted to put me in the women's prison, he said. I think that's a pretty good deal.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
If we're going to suffer, we might as well suffer together. My only other observation from all this, which is related from last night, is... You know, the signage at this place, this America Fest is all confirmed Trump's cabinet. It's just total Trump cultish hagiography. The speeches are all over the place.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
I mean, literally, it's like Ben Shapiro gave like what could have been a Paul Ryan speech with like 20% of Mr. Trump. You know, God's hand is on Mr. Trump, like put on top of the Paul Ryan speech. And then Bannon is like a wrestling ski Trump 2028. Then Tucker's like, you know, kind of we need to go after the big banks, you know, and then like Ben Carson is like, there's no coherent through line.
The Bulwark Podcast
Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible
Yeah. And I do wonder, before we get to your suggestions on what the Dems could do. am I being Alan Lichtman-y to just think that this might just burn itself out? Like maybe the Dems just need to let this, let this burn itself out. It's like burned really hot and they got what they wanted. And now, you know, they've got nothing left to fight for.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Hey, guys, a couple of programming notes. Number one, my colleague, the great Mona Charon, she has a new pod out or a reform pod, I guess we've begged to differ. We have retired at the end of the Biden years. And Mona is instead launching a new pod, the Mona Charon show, which is going to focus on long form conversations about big picture issues off of the news.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Biden said this last night with Lawrence O'Donnell. Biden was like, well, not exactly, but he was like, you know, maybe I should have put my name on the stimulus checks and the people should have learned more about the infrastructure. And it's kind of like, no, I don't. That's not it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
And we're back normal schedule next week. We will be taping Monday morning with Bill talking a lot about the coming. I'm not going to say it, but also Trump's rally on Sunday and then a full schedule next week. So stick with us. I get it. If you don't want to turn on the tube next week, I get it. But you can still hear my dulcet voice.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
I think that you're absolutely right. And I don't want this follow up question to make it seem like I'm minimizing the fact that people, particularly working class folks, were voting in part on the fact that they're experiencing pain from inflation and that their wages weren't meeting it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
That said, it's important to kind of hash out how much of this is economy and how much of this is cultural, right? Because it matters to what the Democrats do going forward. Yeah. And I just want to use one example because it was such a hot spot in the election. I pulled this up before you were on. Looked at Clark County, Ohio, which is where Springfield is, right? So the whole...
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
And, you know, I'll give you a trigger warning before I play any voices that you don't want to hear. Up next.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
The whole controversy about the Haitians was premised on the fact that there were more jobs coming into Clark County, into Springfield, and that they couldn't fill them, right? So they had to bring in Haitians. And that Springfield was on a comeback. So there's economic growth happening in Springfield.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
If you ask Mike DeWine or the new senator he just appointed, John Husted, they would talk about the economic growth in Clark County that happened. In 16, Trump 57, Clinton 38. In 24, Trump 64, Harris 34. So he gained a net 11 points in a county that was having economic growth over that period on the back of Biden policies. And yet still people are like, nope, F it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
And so to me, that says that it's... it's obviously all these things are a mix, but there's a big part of this that is some just cultural disconnect, you know?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
ron brownstein this guy understands data and and what is happening with the electorate better than anybody i love having him on the pod we're going to do a little bit of look back to the 2024 election but also look forward on kind of this demographic the coalitions and and how things are shifting as well as uh he comes from he's uh coming from california so we'll talk a little bit more about the politics of the fires and everything happening out there and uh how climate change is going to be affecting all of us so it's a good convo hope you guys enjoy it up next ron brownstein
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
I just I'm worried that it is the Luigi Mangione pivot and that the Democrats say what we really need to do is be meaner towards CEOs and we can still not change anything culturally. I think that that's I don't think that's a totally irrational thing for them to think. I think it's wrong, but I think that that might happen.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
I love to zag from the consultant class. It makes me feel good because I think that that is correct. I agree that that frame is correct as the big frame, but I think they have to. They have to pick strategic battles to fight him on the culture front, I think is one. And probably where I really disagree is that the battles they would pick would be the wrong ones.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
So maybe it's better that they don't do any at all. But anyway, for another day, before we get to Biden and the fires. I want to drill down one more time on the original question, right? Because there are a couple of stats that I have seen over the last week. One of them came from you that I want to talk about, which was one was about this question of turnout versus people shifting.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
One of them was about 90% of the counties in the country moved towards Trump, right? Yeah, which is unbelievable, which to me, again, shows that this is... movement towards Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Then if you drill down on particularly these counties and precincts where you have high degrees of non-white working class voters, the numbers are unbelievable, like particularly outside of the swing states, but even in the swing states like the Bronx, etc. The other side of the argument, though, the turnout side of the argument, this one really got my goat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Your fellow Venice resident Peter Hamby shared this one yesterday. The young people least likely to vote in 2024 because they didn't like either of the candidates. were college-educated Zoomers. So there certainly was a drop among young voters who didn't feel motivated by Biden. So anyway, how do you adjudicate all that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Friday. I've got with me, friend of the pod, Ron Brownstein, Senior Editor at The Atlantic, Senior Political Analyst for CNN. His most recent book is Rock Me on the Water, 1974, The Year Los Angeles Transformed Music, Movies, Television, and Politics.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
He certainly expanded his support in New York, New Jersey.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
I mean, it was- You also can't blame that on the campaign strategy, right? It's not like Kamala Harris didn't ensure that was a high salience issue for voters. Like people knew. People knew, exactly.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
I wish we could just talk about that, but I will talk about LA and the fires and you're coming at us from Venice. We'll get to all that at the end, but first, how are you doing? How are things?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Yeah, for everybody. Just to close the loop, it was Trump got 74.2 million votes in 2020, 77.3 in 2024. So 3 million more, second most of all time. So, you know, there's something to think about that. After January 6th, second most presidential votes, raw votes of all time.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Okay, I want to talk about the Biden farewell. Just while we're here, we have a little breaking news. Due to the dangerously cold temperatures expected Monday, Trump's inauguration is moving indoors. That's going to be a weird vibe.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Sean Spicer off the hook this time. All right, just really quick. I can only take so much Biden legacy stuff these days. But you do have an article in The Atlantic on why late regime presidencies fail. I'd love for you just to give us the thumbnail of it and then people can go read the rest if they're intrigued.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Oh, no. This article is getting darker by the minute.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Yeah. It's a nightmare. I keep hearing from friends and people out there and just like who kind of go back to the neighborhoods to check on what's happening with the Palisades and all the, it's where everybody's like, it's worse than you even think just total devastation. All right. I want to do the politics of that towards the end. Sure.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Well, maybe the stupidest president in history will break the trend there, be unable to capitalize on the trend.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
you know the threats to men and this whole conversation around that on the pot on monday which might be a distraction from whatever else is happening in the news that day she's excited about it we're excited about it so i'll put a link in the show notes here make sure you can go and subscribe to the feed to get it in your apple podcast or spotify podcast and um
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
You make good pot. You know how to transition for me. I think that if they were able to kind of take the good traits of Trump and J.D. Vance and mesh them together into a single president, the opportunity would be there. Like Trump's ability to appeal to kind of the less engaged voter, particularly these younger kind of men of color, you know, that I think like him for various reasons.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
But speaking of total devastation, I want to get your... I haven't had you on since the election. So I wanted to get your... biggest picture view on kind of what we know now there's, you know, some more data has come out. There's all these snap vibes and narratives that get out there. And, and at the time you interviewed the Harris advisors about a month ago, we'll put that link in the show notes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
cultural affect reasons as much as anything. If you're able to have that but not have all the chaos and the nonsense and the, you know, sort of moronic instincts that Trump has at times, maybe you'd be better positioned to take advantage of it. We'll see, as Trump likes to say. We'll see what happens. I want to do fires really quick.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
My buddy, Brian Tyler Cohen, interviewed your governor, Gavin Newsom, and they talked about the threat to withhold funding, emergency funding from California, which I think is a real threat. Kristi Noem's testifying in front of Congress for a confirmation hearing right now, and she would not guarantee that they would give emergency funding. So I think it's a real threat.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Empathy. Mike Johnson replied, Speaker Johnson, instead of making highly produced clapback videos with social media influencers, ouch, Brian, you should get to working helping Californians. What do you think about the politics of this for Gavin? Obviously, it's cutting both ways.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Way outside the traditional Republican coalition.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
People don't want to read that, but I want to cut through like at the, at the most top level, there's a fundamental question that is emerging on the democratic side. Was this about depressed democratic turnout or was it about a shift towards Trump? And obviously, it's always a little bit of both. But I'm wondering how you would adjudicate that conversation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
I'm glad you mentioned the Burgum thing because you'd sent a tweet about this too, that Burgum is signaling that the administration is all in to stop or reverse the green energy transition.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
That it's not just about investing and drilling, drill, baby, drill, but it's also about stopping the green transition, which should be an interesting piece of information to the college-educated youth that decided that they couldn't decide between the two candidates in this election.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
As you mentioned at the top, we have a lot of friends that are suffering in LA, but you've also written a book about a year in LA. Do you have any, do you want to leave us with an ode to Los Angeles? Any stories or anecdotes?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Ron Brownstein, thank you for your wisdom. And for all that, we'll put the links to your work, the Atlantic into the book in the show notes, and we'll be talking to you again soon.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Everybody else will be back here Monday. What are we going to talk about? I don't know. I think Tacitus or something. Quiz Bill Kristol and the Romans. I'm not sure if there's anything else going on on Monday. We'll see you all back here then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
We'll be doing crossovers and have a moment on here to talk about it again soon. A couple other things. I'm popping on to YouTube either if there's breaking stuff in the afternoon after I've already taped the pod or if they're kind of niche topics where I'm doing interviews with people that I want to grab that we just kind of can't fit into the pod schedule.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
That's enough to just make me want to hang up the podcast mic, to be honest.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
So for an example on that, I talked to Jim Himes, congressman from Connecticut, yesterday about this fight over the Intel Committee chairmanship issue. super interesting and I think important fight in the Republican coalition. If you're interested in that, you can go find it on YouTube. Same thing today. I haven't taped it yet, but I'm about to tape with one of my favorite tax reporters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Wait, hold on. I just want to put a final point on that. So was that non-college white women or all white women?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
So it was not rovember, that's what you're telling me. It turned out not to be rovember.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
The double haters. We talked about this all the time. The Dems did great with the double haters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Yeah, you wrote about that. If people want to read more about that, it's called Democrats' Error Message, looking at what was missed from 2022. I want to dig into that a little deeper because I think there's possibly a different interpretation. I hear what you're saying about how the economy overwhelmed concerns about Trump and Roe. But is that true?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
We're going to get nerdy on the Treasury Secretary hearing with Scotty Besant, which happened yesterday. There's some pretty interesting testimony on that yesterday that I think Democrats, Democratic political consultants in particular are going to have a close ear to when it comes to their interest in extending tax cuts for billionaires, etc. So we'll be doing that this afternoon as well.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
It doesn't seem like the same voters in 2022 tacked back, right? It was a different electorate, right? And maybe is the question, is the types of people that are showing up in a presidential election different? Is a group that's meaningfully different in the types of information they have about about the candidates? They have less information.
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
Are they more inclined to be moved by cultural kind of issues and cultural mores and worries that the Democrats moved to the left on cultural issues? Right. I mean, because to your point, like the economy is. got better between 22 and 24, not worse, right? And so maybe it's more about the makeup of the electorate. I don't know, but you can analyze this more. What would you think about that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Ron Brownstein: Don't Take the Bait
That's moronic, but okay. That's true. That's probably right. That's probably correct as an analysis of what voters think. But FYI, if you have that voter in your life, the governor actually is pretty important to your economic well-being.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
We have to get our we have to get our chuckles, the absurdity of this when we can. I do want your take on this because Voice of America, which he was which Trump had nominated her to run. Domestic folks might not just really even understand the remit or the importance of that. So I am curious your take on fake news, Carrie Lake running the Voice of America potentially.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
She has journal. I mean, she has technically, she has a local TV anchor.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I think it's three and three.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I'm not that optimistic about the board. If Marco Rubio is the tying vote, I don't know, maybe we will have Kerry Lake. It will be a good investment for the Russians, you know, to then having the head of the American VOA also being sympathetic to their messaging. The NATO Secretary General this week gave a speech, Mark Rutte, issuing a warning.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
He said, among other things, we are not ready for what is coming our way. In four to five years, the Russia economy is on war footing. You know, obviously, with your husband, the government officials in Poland, talk to me about kind of the view from our NATO allies here in December 2024.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Yeah, it's interesting. It is that conventional wisdom outside that some deal is coming, but it's now my colleague Bill Kristol, Michael Weiss, now you. This podcast is the home for skepticism of Putin's interest in a deal because everybody has echoed your point of view on that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I want to talk about another news story related to the Russian desired sphere of influence over in Central and Eastern Europe. And that's a story out of Romania, which I kind of have mixed views on. I guess the basics of it, and you can correct me or add more color to this, was that there was Russian interference in this election, particularly via TikTok and via influencers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
More accommodating, maybe. The best spin you could put on this, right, is that these rich guys are saying, okay, four more years of this, maybe we can butter him up and feed on his ego and get some stuff out of it, and then we're done with this guy. That's probably their calculation, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
There was money in the Romanian elections that went against the laws. And so... they called off the election essentially. Like I said, I have mixed views on it, but I'd like to hear your perspective.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
So kind of like a Ceausescu meets RFK Jr. type candidate.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
My daughter will be devastated to hear that as a big carbonated water consumer.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Obviously, some of us feel like the risks maybe are greater than that, but how do you assess that and what the You know, what may be a more effective way to deal with a aspiring soft autocrat would be?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
So challenging, because as I'm just listening to you describe the situation, instinctively, my view is this is bad. Nullifying an election because of disinformation leads to just myriad other problems and loss of trust. On the other hand, it's like... what is the punishment for breaking local election law? It's like, what is an appropriate punishment, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
In this case, the candidate hadn't won yet, but imagine a case where they can, right? Like then they're controlling the government. What is the balance between this decision to nullify the election and, as you said, our American Vegas rules politics where anything goes?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
And it's also just to be fair, it's like hard to imagine. Look, it's not like America hasn't tried to involve ourselves in other countries elections before in the past. Like it's hard to imagine like this situation where Western Europe or European country is like, Oh, we're going to nullify all the elections because the Americans were putting their thumb on the scale. Right. You know what I mean?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Like it's hard to, starting to think about like a way to adjudicate it consistently.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I want to move on to the Middle East before we lose you. You wrote about the collapse of the Assad regime, the collapse of autocratic regimes tend to happen gradually and then suddenly, slowly, and then all at once. You led the story in a nod to Hemingway.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
You also wrote on one of these social networks, I forget where I saw you writing this, it's a bad day for the international network of dictators who live in similar palaces. So the video of the Assad palace being stormed. Just wondering your thoughts on what happened in Syria and the ramifications.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I want to close with one tough question I've been noodling in my head. This has all been heavy material, but similar to the Romania question, this one is one that's hard for me to see clearly the right path, but over the past year, God, more at this point.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Many in sort of the pro-democracy kind of space have had issues with Bibi and his corruption and the way that he has had some Trumpian and Orban-ish behavior. But if you look at the past year now and the weakening of Iran and the weakening of Hezbollah and Hamas, almost elimination of Hezbollah, Do you look at that situation any differently?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I mean, do you assess Bibi any differently than maybe you would have a year or two years ago?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
It's very well put. I'm glad I asked you. I've been noodling on this one in my head. You're bringing some clarity to three points that I think I... fully concur on all three. Well, Anne Applebaum, I think there's going to be much to discuss around the world in the coming years, so I hope you'll be coming back to the Borg podcast often.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I guess we had happy news with Assad, but maybe with some other happier news in the future.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
It was beautiful. The video with Clarissa Ward, I'll put it in the show notes. People haven't seen it. It's really heartwarming. He was such a depraved bastard. So anyway, getting rid of him. And I hope he enjoys the winters in Russia. Anne, thank you so much. We'll be seeing you soon. Everybody else, we'll be back here as always on Monday with Bill Kristol. See you all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Fine. Fine. We're fine. We're here. We're doing fine. I've got to be more precise in the opening greetings, I think, given the nature of affairs. I want to start with the seductive lure of authoritarianism. Because it's more seductive than maybe I'd even anticipate it. Domestically, we've got a series of rich people who have pre-surrendered to the incoming regime.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
The tough thing to figure out is who exactly are the naive businessmen that think that this is going to help them and who are the ones that are on board with the dismantling of that system and the dismantling of that trust. And to that point, Peter Thiel, we know which side he's on. He was on with Piers Morgan the other day. And I just want to play one clip from that interview.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
The Ancien Regime there, the liberal order is over. And I think in Peter Thiel's mind, it's going to be replaced by the autocratic order, maybe the techno-feudal order, I don't know, of him and Elon and Marc Andreessen with Donald Trump as their puppet. Just wondering your thoughts about that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
And to Peter Thiel if you looked at his face for the YouTube viewers. He's trying to pretend like he's not part of the ancien, but he's looking pretty ancien too.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Bezos and Zuck have donated a million to the inauguration. Mark Benioff, who was a resistance CEO for the first time around at Salesforce, went on Maria Bartiromo's show, Maria Bartiromo's Coup Hour, and said, I feel that when we elect a new politician, we have to absolutely support them. This is a moment where we are turning the page. It's an opportunity for a new chapter.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Yeah, I guess I would. I don't think Peter Thiel is listening to me, but I guess I would caution him. You don't really know what exactly is going to replace the current liberal order. You know, excuse me from being a defender of the status quo. But it was funny to me that later in that interview, peers asked him about the Brian Thompson murder. Peter was like, I've never seen a stutter.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
He had like 25 seconds of stuttering before he finally said, I think we should use words to settle our disputes. It's like, well, when the liberal order, when the ancien liberal order gets overthrown, it might be a feudal techno oligarchy, but it might also be something else that they don't like.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
On the corruption front, we also had Trump in the Middle East. In our newsletter this morning, Bill Kristol and Andrew Egger write about how Trump's son, Eric, the executive vice president of the Trump Organization, made an announcement about the unveiling of a new Trump Tower in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Yesterday, the New York Times wrote about the dividing line between Trump's family business interests and Trump's power. Eric Trump was in Abu Dhabi celebrating his dad's move to unleash crypto. as the family helps launch and profit from a new crypto investment. Obviously, we know about Jared Kushner's investments in Saudi. I want to play a little bit from Chris Murphy and get your reaction to it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
You have covered all of this from the European perspective. What's happening with our domestic oligarchs here?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
And Trump's insight on all of this was, If you just get through, if you just power through the round of bad press or the initial investigation or attacks from the counterparty, and there's no impact on anyone's lives, then eventually people will get over it. This is related to Steve Bannon flood the zone with shit. As a tabloid guy, he knows this. He went through the scandal cycles before.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Couldn't be more delighted to be here today with a staff writer at The Atlantic. Her books include Autocracy, Inc., The Dictators Who Want to Run the World, and Twilight of Democracy, The Seductive Lure of Authoritarianism, as well as the Pulitzer Prize-winning Gulag, A History. It's Anne Applebaum. Welcome back, Anne.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
It's like if you survive it and get out the other side, then you can continue to press on. And like in the past, politicians had folded when they would get New York Times investigations about their family business, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I hadn't gotten to Tiffany's father-in-law, but since you mentioned it, I do feel like I should at least read the headline for people if they had missed it. Trump's Middle East advisor pick, who's Tiffany's father-in-law, is a small-time truck salesman. He had lied. It's like a George Santos situation.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
He had acted like he was a billionaire dealmaker, but he has a tiny stake in an African truck company. Let's be honest, what most people really want from the holidays is to see their favorite people more often. Favorite people. Maybe not everybody, but you want to see your favorite people more often.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
And that's why this year, the best gift you can give, besides a plane ticket for all your friends to some foreign country, is an Aura digital picture frame. Named the number one digital photo frame by Wirecutter, Aura frames are incredibly smart and easy to use, allowing you to upload unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone to the frame.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
Plus, you can order the frame online and preload it with photos and videos using the Aura app, so it's ready to go right out of the box. We're going to be talking about all week going into Christmas because, look, Christmas, you want to be able to bring a little joy into people's lives. I don't know about you. I'm grinding right now. I'm on the present grind. I'm trying to come up with good ideas.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
I've got a couple of good ideas. You know, and then for some people, you're like, I'm struggling. I'm struggling. If you're struggling with somebody, particularly if it's an aunt or a grandparent or somebody that you don't get to see enough, Aura Digital Frames are the answer.
The Bulwark Podcast
Anne Applebaum: Planning for a Techno-Oligarchic Regime
So, save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off Aura's best-selling Carver Matte Frames by using promo code BULLWORK at checkout. That's A-U-R-A-FRAMES.COM, promo code BULLWORK. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. You mentioned Carrie Lake.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
We love Amanda, all caps Amanda. So anyway, Jody Arrington, who is the budget committee chair, we're talking to Brandon Boyle, who's a Democratic ranking member. Jody Arrington is a Republican member. It was interesting. There's a punch bowl report out from behind the scenes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
of the kind of negotiations that are happening over this tax bill and reconciliation and how they're going to fund everything. And I guess Arrington showed some slides to other members of some of his proposals that included increasing the corporate tax rate, which made people very upset. I guess that was the only thing that made people upset.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
It also included deep, deep cuts to Medicaid and other, you know, getting rid of some of corporate write-offs, some corporate taxes. The nuts of it is that Arrington at least is acting like he cares about our debt right now. And there are some members of the House Republican Conference who have made their bones. Chip Roy's one. I think maybe do you ever work? Were you and Chip on the same staff?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So your old boss, Chip Roy, is kind of the top of this, right? There are still some OG Tea Party people in there and a handful of new people who have been running on debt and deficit.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And they have this challenge coming up this year where if you extend the Trump tax cuts, it's going to be $4 or $5 trillion more added to the debt the way they did the budgeting with all the expirations from the 2017 tax cut. And so these guys... they either got to put up or shut up on whether they care about this. And if so, there have to be offsets.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
We're more about the saints than we are about the Bible verses. But the evangelicals, they're very Bible focused, as you know. And I was wondering if Karen had Ephesians 6.13 in her mind yesterday. For our struggle is not against the flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of the dark world.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
The only way to do that is going to be to increase taxes. Arrington proposed a corporate tax rate or maybe not extend it on rich people. I find that very hard to believe that the Republicans will do that. Or have these massive cuts with Medicaid being on the top of the list. And you might want to mention that there are a lot of MAGA Americans that are on Medicaid, I should note. So, I don't know.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I was just wondering kind of with your former Tea Party hat on, like what you think about the coming fight and whether you think any of your former brethren will actually hold the line on this or if they end up just, you know, doing king of debt part two.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Didn't you see that he mentioned on Mark Penn's podcast? I didn't even know Mark Penn had a podcast. Very low-rated podcast. Elon went on it. Let's touch some about Mark Penn. And Elon admitted on that that the doge is not going to be able to find the $2 trillion. So if the tax cut extends to $4 or $5 trillion, depending on who you talk to.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And Elon is already admitting that maybe one is the most you could find for cuts for Doge. The only way to make the math work is to jack up the debt more, to raise taxes, or to have very steep cuts to entitlements. Those are the three options.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
We'll put on the full armor of God so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground. And after you've done everything, stand firm then with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes with the gospel of peace. She just turned her cheek. That was it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Well, they've changed it one way, actually. Their majority is even smaller. Yeah. And, like, literally, it's... I mean, Tom Massey, who doesn't give an F, and he really doesn't. Like, if there's one person in the House that could not care less about whether Donald Trump gets this... There's, like, a good Massey...
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And it is. There's $36 trillion. So that's it. I mean, they're in a much bigger pickle than I think that a lot of people realize. And all it takes is two of them. Your old buddy Chip, so you should start texting him again. And Thomas Massey. And they can cripple the whole damn thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
All right, guys, I got to tell you, it is chilly here in the South. We've had a cold streak. It was down to, I don't know, 41 degrees or something yesterday. And so in that kind of weather, a good hoodie is essential. And I don't know about you, but sometimes it's tough to find a hoodie that lasts season after season. And I'm happy to recommend...
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I think my favorite hoodie from our sponsor, American Giant. The American Giant Classic Full Zip Hoodie is made to last a lifetime. You can count on it to bring you comfort and warmth year after year. Slate Magazine called it the greatest hoodie ever made. And from cotton to zipper, it's made right here in the USA. Tyler, my husband actually had a...
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Had an American Giant hoodie before their response or way back. And he couldn't have been more pumped when he found out that American Giant was now supporting the pod. So we can get some new hoodies in, you know, refresh it, get some different colors, get some different weights. And he had the heavyweight. We tried out the lightweight. Just got one in yesterday. And boy, it is cozy.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Got to tell you, I also tried out some of the pants, some little khaki chinos from American Giant. I'm not a big khaki man, but I got one of those colored chinos. You know, to just kind of wear. It's really probably going to be more for next fall, you know, when I want to get into Al Gore earth tones. And I was pretty happy about those. I tried them on yesterday, too. So go check it out.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So it's not just about the hoodies. American Giant makes staples that are anything but basic, like the premium Slub Crew T, No BS High Rise Pant, and Slim Roughneck Pant. So this season, snag the hoodie that will bring you comfort for life. the American giant classic full zip and save 20% off your first order at American dash giant.com.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
When you use code bulwark at checkout, that's 20% off your first order at American dash giant.com code bulwark. I want to talk about Greenland and some of that stuff and some of the bigger picture, but I want to put it into this context. The Gulf of Trump, Gulf of America. My Gulf of Trump idea where we kind of sell it to him in exchange for something, that hasn't really taken off yet.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
She put on her breastplate of righteousness and said, I'm not going to buddy up to you, Donald, like Barack Obama is. I am going to let you know with my eyes that you are evil. And good on you, Karen Pence. What do you think about that? Am I overthinking it?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
It's just a licensing agreement in exchange for, I don't know. My buddy sent me a link. There's some Norwegians.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
to think that they can... I'm going to F this up so scientists don't get mad at me in the comments, but you can take a ship and put bubbles into the Gulf when you see a hurricane is coming and the bubbles would mess with the water temperature to such a degree that it would calm the hurricane down. Send it somewhere else? Send it back out to sea.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So maybe in exchange for the Gulf of Trump, the Norwegians can license it and we can get the bubble solution. You never know. I don't know. Art of the deal. But all of this is under this rubric. You posted onto Blue Sky. Actually, one more note of personal privilege before we get to your Blue Sky skeet. People are like, why aren't you on Blue Sky?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I'm never going to get onto Blue Sky minute by minute. I'm just not going to do it. But I would like to be able to at least occasionally engage, share some of my material. Here's the problem. When Blue Sky first started, like a week after it started, somebody was like, you should get on this. And so I got on. And I have an account. You tagged me, apparently. It has a lot of followers.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I have no idea what the password is. I've tried all of the passwords that I've always used. I'm not going to tell anybody what they are, but I've tried all of them. I've emailed Blue Sky support a couple of times. And I can't get into the account.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And so if anybody works for Blue Sky and listens to this, wants to help me get into the account, then maybe I could engage with my 100,000 followers or whatever it is. So that's the answer for people wondering why I haven't skied it. Anyway, you were telling your, you know, do we have a term for Blue Sky fans? You know, like believers for Justin Bieber? I don't know. The carpenters.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Anyway, we'll think about that. You were telling your carpenters that they are coming on the pod and asking them what if they had any suggestions for topics. And one of them wrote, how do we spend the next four years focused on the real issues and not reacting to every Trump troll and misdirection? You said you have a lot of thoughts on this, so I want to hear them.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
She had to wash her hair. She was supposed to sit next to Trump. I would have also had a scheduling conflict. It's a busy day, bed, bath, and beyond. Got to go to Home Depot. We got to do some grocery shopping. You know, I got to do some returns. We got some presents we didn't like over Christmas. I just can't make it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Well, and the inverse of that, if these tech oligarchs decide to do only promoted speech of their own stuff, right? Like, you know, I mean, because Elon pretends to be a free speech guy, meanwhile, forcing people to see his propaganda in the For You page and elevating all pro-MAGA stuff and, you know, tamping down, you know, critics.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I'm curious then, I have a couple of specific examples I want to go through, but at the broadest level, I'm curious then, as we look to like, for example, next week, we'll be having confirmation hearings, right?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So I assume, but maybe I'm wrong, that you guys are going to be monitoring the ones that have the biggest potential impact on protecting the civic space is going to be Bondi, the AG, Patel. I don't think we have a hearing date yet for Patel. Anything else that jumps out to you?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So let's kind of talk about what that exactly looks like in the context of, I think the questioner was probably asking, like, okay, because you get this a lot. What are we focused on? We're getting distracted. He's distracting us, right? And, you know, the most obvious distraction effort this week was Gulf of Trump, Gulf of America. We're going to take Greenland.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Canada's going to be the 51st state. He brought that up again at the press conference yesterday. I think that there are a lot of people that would say, looking at the rubric you just laid out, that that stuff is frivolous. You should ignore it. I think I have a little bit of a different view that's also just developing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I don't know that anyone has a perfect answer to all this, but I'm curious what your response is under that construct.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
It was like 2017 again with him. He did the shoulder shrug, you know, like the little tepid smile, meek smile.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, I agree with that. So here's my... Here's how I kind of divide all this to your point of there's different rules for different people in civic society. I think that your point, and JVL writes about this a lot in the triad, is like that protecting... democracy use a pun by protecting our civic space elections. Like that is the prime thing.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Like that is the thing that where people need to fight where donors and lawyers should be in the field, ensuring that people's basic rights are protected and that our constitutional Republic goes forward without any, without any efforts by an aspiring autocrat to undermine it. I totally agree. That's the prime work and objective of the next four years.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
But also, like the Democrats, now to your next point, have a political objective, which is to actually win some power back so they can wield power inside the government in 2026 and 2028.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And here I think is where you get to the interesting strategic question because I think the person that skeeted you on Blue Sky, I think they were saying that there is this conventional wisdom that's like Trump distracts us with this stuff. And we should focus only on the serious stuff because that is how you win elections. And that's how you don't play his game.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And I don't know, I've just, I actually had that view for a little while in the last midterm in particular, when it was successful for Democrats in the first Biden midterm. And I'm starting to change my mind on it for this reason. You know, again, we're working this out in real time. I don't, if anybody had the sure proof answer to this, Donald Trump wouldn't be being inaugurated again in a week.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
But I was watching, I was on my little TikTok and I was scrolling through and I stopped on one of my, one of the sports podcasts that I, that I watch. It's one of the bros. Uh, no. Yeah. Well, I mean, they're bros, but yeah, I don't know. I don't think it's a sport. They didn't have any political gas lines called pardon my take. Shout out to PFT. So pardon my take.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
They were talking about Greenland, right? Like they were talking like, you think this is a good idea? Should we buy Greenland? Go America. Isn't that awesome? Go America. We should buy Greenland. And those are the people that helped Trump win, right? Trump won because he gained among people that only knew about the Haitians and Greenland and the stupid stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
They don't care about reconciliation, right? They don't care that much about the intricacies of immigration policy, even though I do. They don't care about... protecting civic space you know what I mean like they're only engaging with Trump on the stupid shit that Trump puts out there like that's their whole political life like worldview and so that just makes me wonder
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
If the Democrats are making a mistake by saying, okay, no, we're just going to focus on the serious stuff that really threatens people's lives. And we're going to let him do all the silly stuff and dominate the news and dominate the battle space for the next four years and continue to gain ground among these folks that read the news less.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
and that is what makes me think no actually the democrats should be playing his fucking game and i don't exactly know what that means in the greenland context but like you know i was when i saw the next level is in the harvey weinstein context it's like it's like maybe instead of focusing on whatever that the democrats should be out there and being like or not harvey when i say everyone say i meant jeffrey epstein sorry sorry i was confusing my sex pests and the jeffrey epstein uh context it's like it's like trump let's see it why haven't you released it oh wait or are you
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
are you the pedo actually? Were you the, were you the person? Was it, was the pedo coming from inside the house after all? Like, let's see all the, you know what I mean? Like stuff that does break through to the broader electorate. I don't know. So what, what do you think about that? Which is like the counter argument to don't get distracted by the silly stuff.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I am. I am, Amanda. I mean, to each their own. But me and Mother, we're staging a fight at Jimmy Carter's funeral. There was one element of the Trump and Obama exchange that I think is interesting, that I think is worth discussing before we get into the real news. Trump had a little presser after the funeral, you know, the traditional post-funeral press conference. Of course.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I do think there are bad ways to be distracted by Trump. Speaking of the failures of the establishment media, I hate being a media critic. I try to do as little media criticism on here as possible because to your point, it's increasingly pointless because it's not where people are getting their news. But I had to do it on this one on Greenland.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Just so people can understand the distinction I'm talking about. I'm talking about trying to asymmetrically attack Trump by going after these things that are tabloidy and having Democratic politicians and people that oppose Trump.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
you know try to use his own his own methods against him i'm not talking about the mainstream media taking him seriously and what before he's actually put his money where his mouth is as you said the uh amanda uh the politico headline today as i was on politico.com looking for topics can trump buy greenland question mark technically yes here are his options No.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
No. Don't help him. Okay? Like, don't help him. All right? It's not actually the job of journalists to be like, Donald Trump farted out some stupid thing that somebody told him on the golf course, and now we're going to put a real serious context around it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
There was a New York Times version of this that somebody sent me that was like, Donald Trump's strategy to buy Greenland is actually an effort to mitigate against the threat of climate change.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
The biggest probability is that it looks big on a map. And he's like, that looks big and cool. And I want the big and cool thing on the map because of the way the cartography works.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
We put it in the show notes for you for people that ask. Also, this is a good chance to inform newbies. that if you want to go ad-free, you might not have even known you could do that. You can go to the bulwark.com slash subscribe, join Bulwark Plus.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And he weighed in on a very friendly exchange with former President Obama. It looked to be very friendly. What were you talking to Barack Obama about?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
way to think about it as America first. And right. Like there's a way for Democrats to engage on this in the Americans first context, which is like, it's real Americans that are suffering. Right. And you said that you're gaining in California and like they're real Americans in Altadena that voted for Donald Trump that are suffering.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And you're, and you're right now angling to get new property in Greenland or invade the Panama canal. That's not America first. One last thing with the protect democracy had on the Elon, uh,
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
kind of oligarch corruption part of it all you know i do yeah i do i know i can't oh i'm officially a podcast cut that out okay you hate the oven i've said i got sucked in by all the other podcast hosts that use that phrase take out the oven hold me accountable for my for my verbal tics thank you amanda
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Don't cut it out, Katie, but just let people hear me put on my own hair shirt for using these cliche tics so I can do better next time. Elon, though, that is, to me, there's a political argument there that the Democrats could use, kind of going after these masters of the universe. But I'm interested in your view on kind of like the parallels between
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
you know, to what we've seen, you know, in autocratic capture in other places around the world. I mean, this feels there's been this era, you know, in the Gilded Age in America before, but in kind of the modern time in the post-World War II world, like the access that Elon has, the access that these super billionaires have,
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
to Trump feels much more like what we see in countries where we're concerned about the end of democracy than it feels like a traditional American kind of I scratch your back, you scratch mine kind of stuff that we've seen from both parties.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
This is tough for me in particular because I do think the status quo is basically fine. We have problems. But this is my small C conservative. My inside is like, you guys want change, but I don't know. Change might be bad. And so we should be a little more careful. But that's a political loser and we should be thoughtful about it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I'm aware of the ways in which some of my priors are bad politics. I've been made painfully aware of that.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Well, excuse me. All right. Well, I'm burdening myself. So, okay. I'm not unburdened by what has been.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I am very burdened by what has been, Amanda. To that point, final thing, because we were talking about in the green room, so we should bring it public. Okay. We got 10 days, then he's going to be inaugurated again. That's going to be bad. I don't know. I've been thinking about it. And I'm going to New York mostly so my family doesn't have to be around.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, I want Tyler to be able to live in peaceful bliss and stream some stupid TV show and go to the park, whatever. Go to Crawfish Royal, Crawfish Seasons Back and not have me. You know, I have to hear his voice in the background. And so that's how I'm dealing with it. But I think it's going to be tough.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I mean, it is it is such a repudiation of a lot of the good that we have that we've believed about the country. That doesn't mean that there's no good left in the country, but it's hard to not. not think about that and not be depressed or discouraged worse than whatever the maximum version of discouraged is. It's hard not to think about, it will be hard not to experience that feeling next week.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So anyway, that was what I thought. Maybe some listeners could think it could get some value in hearing how you're processing it.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I can already tell you it's going to be the opposite of American Carnage. He's going to pretend to be everybody's friend and pretend to unite, and we're going to have to gag as people are like, well, look at this. Trump's turning over a new leaf. You might not have to read the speech. I'm telling you what it's going to be.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Will be tough for me to follow, but listeners should follow it if they can. You know, I got to be here for the people that want to suffer with me. But yeah, I'm with you. No sadness. I'll listen to you, but I'm not going to watch the event. We'll talk about feelings, but no sadness porn here. Because as you said, we can't stop it. That's what we're living through.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Amanda, please come back every month so we can talk through it all. It is so good to see you. And my love to the family, everybody else. We'll be back here on Monday. It's nine years since we lost David Bowie. So we'll take you out with a little Bowie. We'll be back here with Bill Kristol on Monday. See y'all then. Peace.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Not if you're an angel of death. If you're an angel of death, funerals may be right up your alley. Here's what bugs me about it. Maybe this is a personal thing. Maybe I'm, like, triggered. Maybe this is Jeb PTSD. Because he did this shit to Jeb, right? He would insult Columba and, like, make racist jokes about his wife on stage.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And then he'd go backstage and be like, hey, I want to be buddy-buddy with everybody. Like, it was just a joke. Trump really does not believe that words have consequences, that there are any consequences to this sort of thing. And he doesn't see why it's a big deal. It's all just a show. It's all just wrestling or The Apprentice or whatever.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I mean, he perpetrated a lie about how the first black president was born in Africa for a decade. And it's like, we're just going to be like, okay, man, well, whatever. 49.9% of Americans who showed up to the polls voted for you. So now we're just going to make jokes about it. It's cool. The Mexican jokes and the you were born in Africa joke, whatever. We're just moving on now.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
You'll also get access to the secret pod and some other goodies, and you don't have to listen to me talk about all of our great sponsors who we love and appreciate. And one more thing, the show notes today, we're going to, if you are looking for some ways to support the firefighters and the victims in California, we're going to put some vetted links in the notes.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
And that makes me upset. So that's why I'm with Karen. Me and Karen and Michelle.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
F this guy. No, nothing. You get no quarter. Okay.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
When you were a former first lady of the United States at the Democratic president's funeral, you could just be like, hey, I'd like to sit on the other pew.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
It's not like there's a law. Is somebody going to come arrest me if the presidents don't sit in the president's pew?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
We're the only ones that follow the rules and he gets away with it. All right, I want to do... Kind of related, actually, an unintentionally clean transition. There are a couple of rulings yesterday, court rulings. I want to get your take on Supreme Court five to four ruling said that Trump does not get to avoid sentencing in the New York hush money trial.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
This means that he will be inaugurated on January 20th as a convicted felon. Obviously, he's not going to jail or anything. And MAGA is upset at Amy Coney Barrett about this. She was one of the five that voted for it. I have a different kind of perspective. I'm curious, does this matter to you at all?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
One of my New Year's resolutions was I'm not going to pretend to care about things I don't care about. It's hard for me to get my dander up about this thing. He's not going to jail. This isn't real consequences. It's in the history books, I guess. But I don't know. Can you convince me that I should care about this any more than I do?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
So with that, my guest today, a writer and editor at Protect Democracy. She's co-author of The Authoritarian Playbook for 2025. Prescient, how an authoritarian president will dismantle our democracy and what we can do to protect it. It's my former colleague, Amanda Carpenter. How you doing, Amanda?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Okay. That's a good silver lining, actually. I hadn't found one yet. So that is true.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
That's valuable. And obviously, as you say, the pardon thing is going to be something, you know, a big hurdle and a big fight ahead of us. And that's inevitable. It's something you guys have been talking about. You've been talking about for a while. I do wonder your take on the criminology of this with Amy Coney Barrett. Like I said, Cat Turd is really upset.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
You know, the Cat Turd crowd online is very upset. She's a traitor. And I sort of hope, this is going to sound weird, but I hope Cat Turd is right to be mad at Mamie Coney Barrett. I hope that she is really, you know, trying to...
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
draw lines about where the appropriate legal lines are for you know a president that is going to act unlawfully again certainly i don't know though like to me i kind of feel like this was a freebie that's why it's more concerning to me like gorsuch and kavanaugh didn't go along with it like this was a freebie for them to just be like you know whatever like this is like
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
The view that all of these justices always make their decisions purely based on their interpretation of the law, then, okay, that's one way to look at this. The view that sometimes they're making political decisions, like every other actor, and that Roberts and Coney Barrett are like, well, you know, he's not actually going to jail, and this isn't really that important, and...
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
We can throw a bone here, you know, to demonstrate some independence to give us a little bit of give us a little leeway when things get dicier because they're about to get dicier. You know what I mean? I don't know. Maybe that's cynical. That was my read on it. But I don't know. Maybe that's wrong. What do you think?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah, we're going to fake it till we make it. You know why it's a happy Friday. I want to start here. I want to start with Karen Pence.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. A few notes. Yesterday's ad-free pod got cut off at the end, so if you missed one of my favorite widespread panic ditties about being around people and how that helps with your sadness, you can catch up with the playlist in the show notes every Friday at the Bulwark Podcast outro song playlist. It's right here.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
All right. Well, it's just in, as we're talking about this, Donald Trump has now been formally adjudicated as a convicted felon. So there you go. That and two bucks won't even get you a cup of coffee these days. All right. We've got, we've got some other news.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
I know. But mother, I owe you an apology. I was not really familiar with your game. She just snubbed Donald Trump. She hard snubbed Donald Trump at the Jimmy Carter funeral service at the National Cathedral yesterday. And I'm going to do something that I don't usually do, Amanda, but in honor of mother. You know, the Catholics, us cradle Catholics, we're not big on like quoting Bibles.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Concur. One more court item to get to. A federal appeals court rejected Trump's request to block the release of special counsel Jack Smith's final report. Judge Eileen Cannon was obviously the judge of choice there who was trying to help block it, even though she didn't have any jurisdiction over the matter. This has been overturned.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
The report's blocked, I guess, for three more days, absent further appeal, so it could be released as early as Sunday. Both JVLA and Bill Kristol, I think, wrote about this this week, about the importance of releasing the report. Do you have any additional thoughts on that?
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
What, the marshal of Eileen Cannon's courts is going to come and arrest Joe Biden and Merrick Garland if he puts it out? No. Give me a break. Hopefully we'll get to see it, and that will be something we'll be able to chew over next week. There's another news item I want to pick your brain on.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Then I want to get a bigger picture, a little more esoteric about how we're looking at the next four years. We talked, I guess, on Wednesday's pod with Liam Donovan and Brendan Boyle about the upcoming budget fights.
The Bulwark Podcast
Amanda Carpenter: We Are Team Karen (Pence)
Yeah. He's annoying sometimes. So I don't, you know, I don't love just like, I don't love just buttering him up with so many compliments, but he was very good at that specific task at which I granted, which I tasked him. So I appreciated him coming on and doing it.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
Another news item I really want to spend some time on is a gentleman by the name of Darren Beatty. I don't know which one it is. It doesn't really matter. He's the new acting Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy. I want to go through the hit list here on Beatty, and then we'll kind of tie it back to the point you're making. Beatty loves to tell people to take a knee.
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I want to see if you can notice any trend here. Well... Here's our new acting Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy. Tim Scott needs to learn his place and take a knee to MAGA. Black Lives Matter must take a knee to MAGA. Ibram Kendi must take a knee to MAGA. Kay Coles-James of Heritage Foundation needs to learn her natural place and take a knee to MAGA.
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I know, I'm not about healing through pain. No, thank you for saying that. Yeah, it's partially schadenfreude. It's partially just kind of like the, you know, solace and knowing that you are correct. The solace and knowing that... We weren't leading people astray. There's something to that. There's a little bit of joy in seeing other people's pain.
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Any guess on the race of Kay Coles-James, Will? Uh, let me guess. Uh, it has to do with Ebony. Yeah. Yes. There you go. Black. Yeah. Uh, Tim Scott, Katie Coles, James conservatives. They need to take a knee. They need to learn their place, natural place and take a knee to MAGA. So this guy is really, uh, he was fired from the first Trump administration for his associations with white nationalists.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
He was one of the only people too racist to be fired from the first Trump administration. He's been brought back, uh, He's also pro-Uyghur genocide, essentially, or at least a big excuser of the Uyghur genocide. And talking about how he said that we treat American rural whites worse than China treats the Uyghur minority. And then this takes us to South Africa.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
There's an interesting statement from Trump this morning, from Trump yesterday morning, rather. South Africa is confiscating land and treating certain classes of people very badly. It is a bad situation that the radical left media doesn't want to so much as mention. The United States won't stand for it.
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I will be cutting off all future funding to South Africa until a full investigation of this situation has been completed. Beatty had said this in the past, the whole concept of modern South Africa is absurd, doomed to fail from the beginning. South Africa was the first modern nation to be refounded on the anti-white principles of critical race theory.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
Musk is also from South Africa, you might remember, and his attack on USAID may also have something to do with his feelings about the South African leadership. USAID had spent a lot of money helping black folks suffering from apartheid in South Africa. So, I mean, it's not exactly subtle, Will. No, it's not.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
Yeah, I don't know. The Marco Rubio side of it is pretty interesting to me, too. See, he had to hire Beatty, right? And Marco Rubio ran in 2016, as I recall, on kind of a compassionate conservatism updated platform. And Marco Rubio has hired the guy who said that Kay Cole's James of the Heritage Foundation needs to learn her natural place and take a knee to MAGA.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
But the bad people, the MAGA people, there will be some collateral damage, unfortunately. That's not what I'm happy about. But just their failures is kind of giving me a little joy. No, is that wrong?
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
And this is the type of person that Marco wants as his undersecretary, somebody who is posting just the most overt, obvious, racist, vile things. over and over again about conservative black leaders. I, you know, not that it's okay to do racist stuff about Ibram Kendi, but like this guy is so through the looking glass that he's posting racist shit about Tim Scott and Kate Cole's James.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
And Marco is like, I want this man to be my undersecretary. I just think that the degree of the corruption, the corruption of the soul of these people is, is pretty remarkable. Right.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
I mean, it's his undersecretary.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
I guess. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's their version of DEI. Remind me, what's the job that Beatty's getting here? Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy.
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I was looking for that chilling on the beach vibe on Saturday night because I was over at my buddy's house. I had a big day ahead of me Sunday. Lots happening out there in the news. You know, didn't want to deal with the hangover. We had the kids running around. You know what a nice thing to do is when you have seven-year-old girls running around screaming, pretending like they're cats?
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Yeah.
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That's 30% off your order using code THEBULLWORK. One last time, GetSold.com and code THEBULLWORK for 30% off. I want to go back to Elon. We mentioned this, but the Treasury story? It's really something. I mean, Doge, I guess, and Elon now with the approval of incoming Treasury Secretary Scott Besant, who everybody told me was the normie. This is the guy we don't have to worry about.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
I don't know. Personal validation. Yeah. All that matters is solipsism. All that matters is having my own brain. Okay, I knew that you'd be on the other side of that, but I figured some of the listeners would be on my side. I'm enjoying it. There's another thing. It was related. I don't know. Ezra Klein, you might have heard of him.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
I guess he's given Elon carte blanche to... interfere in the payment system. Among the things that he said that he wants to put a stop payment on is payment to Lutheran religious services because the Lutheran services, they're providing services for immigrants. Obviously, we wouldn't want to do that. So, you know, the
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
The Christian, the presidency, the presidency brought in by Christians who, you know, great evangelical Christians like Franklin Graham and Jerry Falwell Jr. They're shutting down all payments to the Lutheran religious services. Anyway, JVL has kind of an even darker take on what's happening.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
He writes this, Elon Musk allegedly has control of the system the US government uses to disperse congressionally mandated payments. Musk claims that he's personally putting a stop to payments he does not like. First, this obviously could not happen unless the FBI had been neutered because these actions are badly illegal.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
Of course, if the DOJ and FBI refuse to investigate the crimes, are they really crimes at all? But then he goes on to talk about how, you know, Musk wants X to be a payment system. And his dark vision of what's possibly coming is that Elon wants to get his own private businesses funded. involved in payments from the government.
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You would have said that that was a crazy conspiracy to even suggest, but boy, I don't know what they'd be doing differently if they were planning on doing that. Yeah, well, that's just oligarchy, right?
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
So we are messaging about our topics for today. You know, the worse than Watergate conversation. firings at the FBI, shuttering of USAID, this racist that's going to the Secretary of State, Elon taking over the Treasury, let's see, the January 6th pardon guys raping people, the tariff, the trade war, et cetera, et cetera. So we were discussing potential topics.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
He's kind of a minor columnist, and we might have him on the pod again soon. He had a piece over the weekend that said this. Trump is acting like a king because he's too weak to govern like a president. He's trying to substitute perception for reality. He's hoping that perception then becomes reality.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
You said to me, also the outrage is not high enough about what he's doing on DEI. So I just figured I'd let you cook on that for a little bit too.
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He did explicitly, like he was citing people with mental health issues and paraplegics and other weird stuff like that. But yeah, I mean, the implication is obvious.
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
That can only happen if we believe him as part of a longer monologue about just like, this is not actually the actions of somebody who is going to take over the government in a gradual and effective way.
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Well, maybe if we had more Aryans like Darren Beatty watching, you know, air traffic control, we might be in a better place. I don't know. But I wanted to let you cook on that because obviously it's racist and horrible. And I think that additionally, though, it will be illegal the way that they're targeting individuals who work in the government, who are career officials.
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You know, we already saw the one example. I think I talked on a past podcast about Dan Crenshaw. putting up a picture of a black woman and noting that she had changed her bio to take out DEI and basically saying this woman should be fired, essentially. So there's going to be racist targeting of that. I worry a little bit about the Democrats' response to this.
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We're going to spend a lot of time all week on all the horrors that the Republicans are inflicting on Americans. But the Democrats had an election over the weekend where they were going to choose who was going to lead the party in opposition to this. They chose a guy named Ken Martin from Minnesota. He ran what they call the DFL party in Minnesota. He seems like a fine enough person, I guess.
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I don't know. He doesn't exactly seem like the knife in his teeth attack dog that I might have wanted for the job. I don't know him that well. Leading up to his election victory, there was a debate that happened. And I want to play a clip from the debate and then discuss something that was really...
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So for people listening, everybody raised their hand. Ken Martin, who presented up winning, was like the most excited with the hand raise. And he was like pumping his hand up to that question. Jonathan Capehart says they all win in that answer. Okay. I mean, okay. I want to get to that in a second.
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There's another segment where there's a question from somebody in the audience about whether the DNC needed to have a permanent seat or at-large seat for somebody who's transgender. There's another question about whether they needed Muslim affinity groups to do outreach to the Muslims.
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Everybody on stage, all the different candidates supported both of those objectives, except for one person, Faze Shaker, who was Bernie's campaign manager. So here I am handing it to Bernie's campaign manager. But he was like, I don't know, I think maybe we should focus a little less on this stuff and obsess on this stuff a little bit less.
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These are the actions of somebody that doesn't know what they're doing and is trying to continue the fraud that he's perpetrated on the country for a long time that covers up his fundamental political weakness. What's it to you to Ezra's positive spin? These are the last two positive items of the podcast. Just saying.
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And so, anyway, Will, I made you as homework watch some of this, and I'm wondering what you think. Because I was not seeing a party that learned a lot from their defeat when I was watching this candidate forum.
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I mean, what you want from the leader of the DNC in this moment is somebody that's going to be the tip of the sphere in taking the fight to Donald Trump. And there was just very little of that. Again, besides FaZe, who I thought was really good, who's talking about what – and I'm trying to get him on the pod – but what he thinks the DNC could do from a communication standpoint better.
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There just was a lot of caring about the internal nonsense that nobody cares about besides random people who are obsessed with Democratic Party internal politics. I understand that it's an internal debate. And I think at a time when the stakes are lower, or back in 1998, I don't know if it was that big of a deal who the DNC chair was, and they could all hash out their own internal disagreements.
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But there is a vacuum right now. And the vacuum needs to be filled by somebody on the left who is capable of being the torchbearer in the fight against Trump. And these guys just weren't it. I want to play one more clip from the outgoing. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to obsess about the identity thing here. Well, but like somebody has to say it like they need to learn about something.
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And so I want to play Jamie Harrison, the outgoing DNC chair. This is him in his intro to talking about the. I guess it was the rules of the vice chair race for the DNC and making sure they had the right representation.
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That goes on for another 90 seconds. I spared you the last 90 seconds, but that goes on for another 90 seconds. Is this fucking Portlandia? What are we doing here? Does the DNC need full balance between male, female, and non-binary representation on every committee? If there's a great non-binary candidate to be the vice chair of the DNC, that's awesome. I'm fine with that, Sarah McBride.
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Transgender congresswoman, she seems great. Put her forth. I support that. But what are they doing? Stop obsessing over this shit. Stop. Just stop. You can care about representation and making sure that people are at the table without making yourself into a caricature that makes the country laugh at you.
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Like the object of the DNC right now is to build a party that can take on Donald Trump and the aspiring authoritarian that we just went over all the things that they're doing to try to make this an authoritarian country. The opposition needs to be up for that fight, not like obsessing over which committee has the right number of non-binary Native Americans. OK, we got to stop.
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Yes.
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Snow is our care. It's absurd. We need two of every race and gender, you know, two of every sexual identity. We need two intersex, two bisexuals. We need two of everything.
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That is not true, though. Well, it is the essence of the party. Was Jamie Harrison up there talking about how we need to make sure that there's a vice chair that didn't go to college or that there's a vice chair from... communities that have been hollowed out by the economic crisis. I don't fucking know. You show people what you care about by what you talk about.
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That's how you show people what you care about. And the Democrats over and over show people what they care about is identity politics, making sure everybody has a seat at the table. They just... I'm sorry. That is it. The Republicans don't do this. They don't have this happening at their meetings. And people notice that. There's crazy stuff that happens at Republican meetings. Yeah, of course.
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Well, four years later, people have people are stupid and have short memories. But yeah, they didn't think so at the time.
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Yeah, of course. There's other crazy shit that the Republicans have. The Republicans have plenty of baggage that they have to carry. Yeah. Why? What is the value of this?
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I'm sorry. I don't you don't think that that's happening in meetings at Democratic HQ, that there are people in private like trying to discuss on the strategy of like, oh, we got to make sure that we're representing. I do think I do think it is impacting their strategy. I don't think that there's anybody in these rooms that are working class Americans that did not go to fucking fancy schools.
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Like, I just don't think there is. I think that the rooms are full of people that care about this like campus politics shit. Like, on balance. I don't think that's true.
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Right, he was the last person. He entered the race at the end because he was like, somebody has to, like... talk different.
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No, they can talk about it in a way that's normal. They can talk about it in a way that normal people talk about shit. If you wanted to say at that forum, it is outrageous that Donald Trump is kicking out of the military. people that are transgender, that volunteered to serve, and that this fucking keyboard jockey that ducked
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The military, because he had fake bone spurs in his feet, is now trying to tell a patriotic transgender American that they have to be kicked out of the military to appease some like 22-year-old racists on Reddit? Great. Say that. Have passion in your gut for protecting people and for defending people.
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But like, don't just like talk about how, oh, oh, you know, we need to make sure that the AANHPI committee has enough influence, you know, and is that like, you know what I mean? Like, there's ways to talk about it that they tell how they talk about it on Portlandia. And there are ways to talk about protecting trans people in the way that they would talk about it at a dinner table in America.
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Yeah.
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Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. But it would be fine for me if I felt like they were at least doing their best. I want them to defend people. Marginalized people should be defended. What I don't want is stupid tokenism because they think that it's helping people when it's actually just hurting them. Okay. Final thing. Very important topic.
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Luka Doncic got traded to the LA Lakers, which is madness for anybody who pays attention to the NBA. At the worst, you could say he's the fourth best player in the NBA. He might be the second best player in the NBA. They traded him to the fucking Lakers, who always get the best people. For Anthony Davis, who's always hurt, I don't understand it. I feel like we are...
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it's rigged the nba is rigged they're they're upset about the ratings or maybe miriam adelson who's the new owner of dallas maybe there's maybe she is like sabotaging the team this is like what was that movie major league where the owner was trying to sabotage the team maybe she's trying to sabotage the team because mark cuban used to be the owner and he's woke now i don't know
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So, just a little context here.
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Bill Kristol's on vacation. I'm here with my colleague... Will Salatin. What's up, Will?
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I don't know. Who was I talking to this about last night? Oh, I was talking to JJ McCullough. We did a YouTube video on this topic and he's Canadian. He was like, he's like, won't the Magas not care? Even if they're, I guess they're probably not even buying guacamole, whatever, you know, even if their maple syrup for their pancakes is going up and won't they just think that that's,
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It's wrong. And it doesn't make any sense. It's horrible for the Mavericks long-term, so I don't know why they would do it for their franchise. It might make them a little bit better this year, weirdly, just because Luka's been hurt. But... Ah, it's outrageous. It certainly would be the second dumbest thing to the tariffs if it wasn't for this little piece of breaking news I got for you.
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The president of Mexico, Claudia Scheidenbaum, says that she has reached an agreement with Trump to delay the tariff by up to a month. So it will rise to the first dumbest move, the Luca trade, over the tariffs if... The Canada tariffs also get delayed a month after Trump talks to Trudeau. Who knows?
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But that is that's the state of play on our very stable economy with our very stable genius president. So, Will Salatin, do you have any final thoughts on that?
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What a joy. All right. Will Salatin, thanks so much. I'm next. Scott Lincecum. I'm sure you know somebody out there has been a victim of identity theft or had that credit card stolen or been stalked or doxxed. This day and age, making sure that your data is private is critical.
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And as a person who exists publicly, especially someone that shares my opinions online, I'm hyper aware of safety and security. It's easier than ever for people to find personal information about me or you online. All this data hanging out there on the internet can have actual consequences. And that's why I personally recommend Delete.me.
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Delete.me is a subscription service that removes your personal info from hundreds of data brokers. Sign up and provide Delete.me with exactly what information you want deleted and their experts take it from there. Delete Me isn't just a one-time service. It's always working for you, constantly monitoring and removing the personal information you don't want on the internet.
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So take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me, now at a special discount for our listeners. Today, get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and use promo code bulwark at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com.
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Slash Bulwark. Code Bulwark. All right. Hey, everybody. As I mentioned at the end of the Will Salatin interview, Trump backed off of the tariff to Mexico, at least for a month. They kicked it back a month in exchange for, I guess, 10,000 troops, Mexican troops going to the border. So I taped the Scott Lincecum part of this interview about the trade war before that news came out.
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We're going to keep that in here because Scott provides a lot of really kind of interesting analysis of how this stuff works in practice. And, you know, these threats and bluffs and backoffs and, you know, this whole rigmarole, we're going to be living through this for the next few years. So I think it is still very relevant to hear from Scott on what the implications are.
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And as I'm taping this right now, we don't know what, if anything, will happen with the Canadian and China tariffs, whether we'll try to punch those back a month as well or not. So we will see what happens. And we're back with my buddy Scott Lincecum. He's the Vice President of General Economics and Trade at the Cato Institute. He's an adjunct professor at Duke Law School.
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you know, whatever part of Trump's grand plan. And I was like, yeah, but the problem is he got a lot of votes from people that did not have those strong ties, right. That were annoyed by prices and had some, you know, annoyances about the cultural shift left of the Democrats. And maybe they cared about crime or immigration. Right. But like,
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He writes the Capitalism Newsletter for the Dispatch, subtly titled. And he also said, is this right? You're the progenitor of the viral t-shirt, tariffs not only impose economic costs, but also fail to achieve their primary policy aims and foster political dysfunction along the way. You can see why that's a popular t-shirt. Yes.
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Yes. Increasing and increasing as the minutes go by. Well, I wanted to have you on as, you know, a local tariff expert to dig deep on this. The Wall Street Journal called it the stupidest trade war in history. So I'm turning to you for both the kind of the big picture. And now we agree that it's bad. So that part is covered. But like what exactly is happening? And then kind of we'll dig into it.
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The Canadian fentanyl emergency. I've been hearing lots about that.
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There's not. I think we can say at the board that there is not a Canadian fentanyl crisis. I mean, I guess every ounce, every gram of fentanyl that comes across the border is a tragedy, as RFK would say about abortions. But I don't think it rises to the level of crisis.
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there are people that are not in the cult that were for him. And I do think that some of them are going to maybe experience the consequences of the vote, but we'll see.
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We should get into the legal side of this and what legal remedies there are. But just just to be clear on what the political side of this is. I mean, Trump acknowledged what you're saying is that there will be some disruption. He said we may have short term some a little pain. I don't remember him saying that during the campaign, but he acknowledged yesterday that there will be pain for people.
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He said recently, nothing can be done to forestall tariffs. We have very big deficits and tariffs are something that we are doing. Canada has treated us very unfairly. J.D. Vance writes yesterday, spare me the sob story. He's such a dick. Spare me the sob story about how Canada is our best friend. I love Canada and have many Canadian friends. Quick fact check.
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I find that very challenging to believe that J.D. Vance has said.
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But does J.D. has friends that are Canadian? I'd like to see the evidence of that. But is the government meeting their NATO target for military spending? Are they stopping the flow of drugs in the country? I'm sick of being taken advantage of. And these guys are all over the place. Right. I mean, even in their own messaging, like the fentanyl thing is just such an obvious fig leaf.
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He's like he's talking about NATO and all this other shit.
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Yeah, I liked this observation by Brendan Duke. He said it was just three months ago. Trump was green lighting a pipeline from Canada to own the American libs. But now he's starting a trade war with Canada because he says we import too much oil from them. Right. And it is the whole thing is just incoherent. I get it betrays.
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He understands or at least somebody around him understood like the value of of bringing Canadian oil, for the very reason you said, you know, to places where it's geographically convenient and, you know, where it works. But I guess, you know, that is not as important now as the tariff temper tantrum.
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So let's just do 101 here. All right. So the tariff, I was getting a text from a buddy last night. He's like, so who collects the tariff again? Right. I mean, like, we're just trying to, you know, remember our, our, you know, macro 101 from college here. So the tariff at the border, the tariff is actually collected from the importer. Yes. Right.
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So, you know, it's not, it's not as if the Canadian exporter then pays a quarter on every dollar to the US government. The importer pays that when they bring it in. Is that right? Yeah.
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No, he's been texting me. There's definitely no vacation for him mentally, but he does get one day off the podcast. Can I start with something positive, though? Go ahead, man. I don't know if you'll find it positive, but I'm feeling good about a couple of things this morning. All right? Tell me. Here's number one. this is a shit show. This is a total shit show. And I knew it would be a shit show.
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How do those economic ones happen? Like the US, we send them a bill? Like, sorry, you're fucking with us?
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All right. Well, I don't like this roll switch. Okay. I'm the pony. I'm finding the pony. You're trying to bring me into darkness. I don't take it. Just let me have it.
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Well, that'll be great for infrastructure costs and all the issues, yeah.
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I don't, usually.
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It's a guy from Mexico. He's driving up in his truck with avocados. He's crossing the border legally. Is the customs guy counting the avocados and giving him a bill? How does that actually happen?
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Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a pony for me. All right. Things are getting darker from here. So I hope everybody enjoyed that segment. Will, our colleague Bill Kristol, wasn't so much on vacation that he couldn't write a newsletter this morning. He wrote about the scandals that are currently embroiling the administration that are worse than Watergate.
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The guy shipping it in is getting the bill, but I thought the importer was supposed to be paying for it because then they just charge the importer on the back end.
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Okay.
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It'd be kind of awesome. I talked to some mad Canadians last night. So there might be some maple syrup getting chucked across the border.
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So you kind of mentioned this, but what about just the broader structural supply chain challenges, right? Because if you're a U.S. automaker, some of this stuff's coming from China through Mexico to the U.S.
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Oh, it's a complex widget. It has a couple different parts. Yeah, a lot.
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He starts with the firings at the FBI for people that have not been following this. There were, I guess, six high-level FBI officials that were involved. escorted out of the building late last week. Then there were other FBI officials that were involved in the Trump administration that they were trying to have relieved of their duties.
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We can say what the fuck here, but yeah, I got a kid.
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Well, that's going to do good things for prices, I think. The other funny thing I saw about this, two more funny things I want to share with you. One was they've removed the de minimis exception. Yes. And so this was like, you know, if a Canadian grandma wants to send her American, you know, wants to send a gift. Right. To her grandchild who now lives in Austin.
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They got to pay a tariff on that now. I guess we're going to have external revenue service people like 20 year olds Elon hires from the Reddit message board I guess is going to be going through the mail to figure out if there are any tariffs that need to happen now.
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I just think we're going to take all the people from USAID and we're going to make them border agents.
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But the acting FBI director, Brian Driscoll, actually refused to agree with that request. And in a message to staff on Saturday, he reminded FBI agents of their rights to due process and review in accordance with existing policy and law. We had a letter at the Bulwark this morning that comes from the Society of Former FBI Agents, which is not a group that is particularly political.
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I also like this from Chuck Grassley this morning. He's trying to blame Biden, of course. Biden, inflation increased the input cost to farmers by 20%, including particularly the high prices on fertilizer. So I plead with President Trump to exempt potash from the tariff because family farmers get most of our potash from Canada.
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I was wondering if that was a typo because Chuck Grassley does a lot of typos. I'm not a farm boy. I'm from the suburbs, but my farm husband informs me that potash is a real thing. Yes. And it's in fertilizer. Correct. Correct. And that's a big problem. So now we have individual centers begging Mr. Trump for mercy for random products.
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And I think we found the feature for the-
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I mean – But Scheinbaum and Trudeau are trying to counteract that by targeting – red state businesses. Yes.
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I did a whole segment on YouTube with our Canadian pal, JJ, that people can go find. I'll put the link in the show notes. And it's – they're hot. They're hot under the collar up there.
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And they are saying that this is an obvious disruption to FBI operations, the degree to which it can't be overstated. The forced retirement of director, deputy director, and now all five executive assistant directors. They say that this extreme disruption is occurring at a time when the terrorist threat around the world has never been greater. It's putting us at great risk.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
So you wrote this one, you think the impact here, if they actually go through with it, could be the biggest one-year tax increase ever?
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
Now that's a good place to end. Thanks to Will Salatin, Scott Lincecum. Everybody else, we'll see you back here tomorrow.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
And we have basically, you know, the weekend of the long knives at the FBI. And this is coming to a head with the Kash Patel vote coming up in the Senate.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
Yeah, I don't really care if the public cares at this point. It's like, that's a problem for fall of 2026. I think that the substantive element here that you talked about, like at the beginning, is about how scary it is. You were smart to tie this to the pardons, and we had another story out over the weekend. I guess it's the 4th
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
Person that was pardoned that has had another altercation with police. This one is Dylan Harrington. He was nicknamed the MAGA Lumberjack. He was arrested for rape. He's raping a woman who is blacked out and did not consent. He had pleaded guilty to assaulting, resisting and impeding officers, was sentenced to 37 months in prison and Trump had pardoned him.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
We told everybody it would. But, you know, there was always a chance that Trump would get in there and, I don't know, decide not to do anything, right? And just kind of bleat and get people to call him sir and not actually do anything and take credit for things that were already kind of percolating positively from the Biden administration. That was one option that could have happened.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
So you have that, you have the paramilitary organization, you said, you have this unlawful firing of career federal law enforcement officials, high level law enforcement officials.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
We talked about this with Andrew Weissman on Friday, just about like how important it is to institutional knowledge to have these people and judgment, you know, given the most challenging cases, we've gotten rid of all those people. And then JVL tied it also to what is happening with Elon Musk, right?
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
Where Elon Musk is now taking over the Treasury Department, going into USAID, having his little 20-year-old Doge officials try to bully career officials, get access to classified information, get access to personal financial information. And JVL's point is like, look, if you've cleansed the law enforcement agencies of anyone who would be willing to investigate
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
members of the own administration, then members of your own administration can act with impunity and can commit illegal actions, which Elon Musk is doing. Right. So all of this is an attack on the rule of law.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
Yeah, I mean, here's just one example of what was happening with USAID. This is from CNN. Officials with Musk's so-called Department of Government Efficiency sparked a tense clash with USAID administrators over the weekend by demanding access to its physical headquarters and digital systems, threatening to call security when the agency refused.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
The incident led to two more senior USAID security officials being placed on leave, and Doge ultimately succeeded in getting classified information. I mean, like that is... That is Hungary. We're doing this thing where it's like we're having these conversations where it's like, are they on the path to Hungary? Are we on the path to Russia? What are they going to try to do?
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
But instead... We have JVL this morning in the triad predicting a stock market crash. And all the topics we're about to go over is them messing things up. I don't know. Can we not have some pleasure in that? Knowing that they're as bad as we thought they would be?
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
Hello and welcome to the Bulldog Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got a two-parter today. I added a bonus segment with Scott Lincecum, who's a trade expert, to talk about the tariffs that are imminent and already rollicking the stock market. But first, it's back for the old-timers, for the OGs. You might remember Will Salatin Mondays. Well, they're back right now.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
How much of this is just PR? How much of this is whatever, Trump bleeding, illiberal things? This is unelected people that I assume don't have security clearances or background checks yet because they're just random officials with Doge going in and bullying existing high-level national security officials with clearances to get classified information.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
And then, obviously, the next step of this is to then shut down USAID, which is coming, which reports say are coming. USAID signs were taken down from the Reagan building. They're going to put it under Secretary of State, I guess. That's blatantly not legal. It is thug autocracy. That's what that is.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
Yeah, throw China in there too, obviously.
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
Well, go ahead and continue down that path, because you said you wanted to talk about the geopolitics of the trade wars. And obviously, we'll get into this more with Scott, but that all ties together, right?
Young and Profiting (YAP) with Hala Taha
Reid Hoffman: Unlocking Limitless Human Possibilities With AI | Artificial Intelligence E333
I mean, this is an effort to completely isolate America from our allies, from having influence in parts of the world where there's competition for influence with the more authoritarian regimes, right? And the trade war is directly connected to shutting down USAID in that sense. And it's also directly connected to the coming threats to NATO that we're going to be seeing in the coming months.