The Bulwark Podcast
S2 Ep1037: Katie Phang and Greg Casar: Trump & Co Are the Real Flag Burners
Wed, 07 May 2025
The Supreme Court is working hard to tend to Mr. Presidential Immunity's wounds because he just can't abide lower federal court judges telling him he can't kick trans people out of the military, or that the 14th Amendment is a real thing. Meanwhile, Kristi Noem is defiling her own birthright citizenship by kidnapping people and sending them to a foreign gulag. Plus, how the Dems should fight the party that only wants to break things—and craft a better economic message that appeals to both moderates and progressives. Rep. Greg Casar of Texas and Katie Phang join Tim Miller. show notes Katie's Substack NYT profile of Rep. Casar
Chapter 1: How does Kristi Noem's ads impact the podcast?
Aber wir haben es für euch funktioniert. Ich erfreue Katie Fang, dass sie sich um meine technischen Schwierigkeiten beschäftigt hat. But more importantly than that, I want to talk about some ads that ran on this podcast yesterday. The Department of Homeland Security is running these grotesque self-deportation ads featuring Kristi Noem.
They ran a couple of them, it sounds like, on this podcast yesterday. The only good news about audio Noem ads is you don't have to see the Uncanny Valley Nip-Tuck makeover she's undergone. But the rest of it is pretty much bad news. And Die Frage, die die Leute haben, ist, warum sie diese Ads auf der Never Trump Blowtorch runten. Die Antwort ist, ich weiß es nicht wirklich.
Vielleicht denken sie, wir haben undokumentierte Zuhörer. Vielleicht sind sie überrascht von der ehemaligen republikanischen Sache und denken, sie erreichen Magas mit ihrer Propaganda. Vielleicht versuchen sie, Janie von der oberen Westseite zu vertreten. Vielleicht sind sie Ignorantisten, sie fliegen ihre Diarrhoea überall, ohne Angst vor dem, wie sie Taxifahrer-Dollar spenden.
Maybe a little bit of all of that. I don't know. But as far as I'm concerned, if they want to waste DHS resources paying us, I'll take it. Better here than in a place that's going to scare vulnerable people. Better they spend money on this than in, I don't know, Plainfair to El Salvador. So that's my view on it. A brief aside for people who care about how the ad process works.
I don't control the programmatic ads, only the ones that I endorse with my made-for-print vocal tones here. So, you know, when you hear me talking about whatever, that's Das ist eine Ad, die ich wissend bin. Wir können sie negieren, aber die restlichen sind nur ein AI-automatisches System da oben. Also, euer Wunsch ist so gut wie mein, warum Christi Noem und DHS und Trisha uns gekauft haben.
Aber wenn ihr keine Ads hören wollt, haben wir eine free-ad-Version. Ihr könnt auf thebulwark.com abonnieren. Wir würden gerne haben. Aber weil sie auf dem Pod veröffentlichen, wollte ich sie direkt beantworten. Ich habe eine Botschaft für Christi Noem und die Sadists hinter diesen Ads. Und es ist dieses hier. Es gibt ein einziges Unique an Amerika.
Es ist ein Ort, wo diejenigen, die durch Zerstörung, Zerstörung und Diskriminierung fliehen, die Möglichkeit haben, sich zu befriedigen. Es ist ein Ort, wo diese Menschen die Möglichkeit haben, einen Traum zu erreichen. Einen Traum, den wir einmal als den amerikanischen Traum genannt haben. Sie können es machen, egal ob ihre Blutlinie oder welches Stoff sie aufgewachsen sind.
Und solange Christi Noem völlig von Schlafen oder Native Amerikanern ausgetreten ist, und wer weiß, weil sie ihre Gesichter komplett wiederhergestellt hat, ist es dank dieser Tradition, dass sie jetzt die Möglichkeit hat, diese heilige Position zu haben, unsere Heimat zu schützen. Mit diesen Ads, Christi und all denen, die für sie arbeiten, verurteilen ihre Kindheit als Amerikaner.
They are the flag burners. They are the criminals. They are kidnapping people and sending them to a foreign torture prison with no due process. That is what monsters and fascists do. And I do hope that one day in this world or the next, they're going to be held to account for their criminal behavior.
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Chapter 2: What is Katie Phang's background in legal analysis?
They're trying to lead them into making an impossible choice about whether they should stay here, stay in this place where they came looking for a better life alongside their family and friends that are here legally. Whether they should stay in this place where they go to church and work and pay taxes.
They're trying to push them out to achieve some, I don't know, material for their un-American propaganda. Because the people who listen to an ad and are like, you know, maybe I should self-deport. It's the folks that are trying to go through this process the right way. There are a lot of people that came here illegally but have been trying to apply all the way back to the Obama administration.
Maybe they're dreamers. Maybe they're people that came looking for asylum and haven't been granted it. There are so many different examples. I knew these folks. I knew people in this community and In Oakland, I did a lot of work with the Guatemalans who had come here as asylees. And a lot of them were mixed families, right? Because the rules kept changing.
And some of them came here, you know, when the asylum rules were more welcoming. And like other members of their family came after or were unable to come in time. And so you have mixed families that are here. They're working. They're contributing. They're doing what every other generation of Americans have done. And our Secretary of Homeland Security is trying to fucking scare them.
And she's trying to scare the ones that are here legally, as well as the ones who aren't. It is a campaign of terror, and it is fucking sick. And so, hey, in a free country, these folks can advertise wherever they want. But these ads only fill me, and I assume the listeners of this podcast, with more contempt for the people that are executing this despicable deportation campaign.
And it is only going to invigorate us to continue to oppose their vile, un-American agenda. So, eat a dick, Kristi Noem, not in a good way. Up next, Katie Fang and Congressman Greg Kazar. She's a legal analyst, independent journalist and trial lawyer. Her substack is law and disorder. It is Katie Fang. What is going on, Katie?
Oh, nothing. Nothing at all. It's been very mellow, right? No news. No news about me. You know, nothing at all.
I want to hear a little bit about the news about you. You left MSNBC recently, but before that, for listeners, I think probably especially for listeners who came to know you watching MSNBC, but for those who aren't familiar with you as well, maybe they had an experience that I did, which was around maybe during the pandemic. Aber ich dachte mir, wer ist diese Katie Fang? Sie kocht auf TV.
Und ich hatte keine Ahnung, wo du herkommst. Ich wusste nicht, was du sagst. Gib uns ein bisschen TLDR. Wie kommst du aus dem Ether in die TV-Sendung von Bomben?
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Chapter 3: Why is the Supreme Court's decision on trans military service controversial?
I mean, we are unleashed now. Okay. The options are on the table here on the BorgPod. I love it. I want to talk about, we have a bunch of different cases. Last night, SCOTUS So, Tim, let me just set the table for a second here, because I think this is really important context for people who are tuning in to consider.
You've got a naval aviator for 19 years. Sie hat mehr als 60 Kampfmissionen geflogen, insbesondere in Irak und Afghanistan. Die Vereinigten Staaten-Navy hat mehr als 20 Millionen Dollar auf die Training für diesen Piloten verwendet. This is Commander Schilling.
And Commander Schilling is one of the plaintiffs in the case that SCOTUS has now basically said, at this point we're going to allow you, Commander Emily Schilling, to be booted out of the United States Navy, despite all of the work that you have done and all of the money that has been spent, simply because you decided that you were going to transition in 2021. I mean, Tim, this is why...
This is a particularly outrageous moment because the other federal courts that have been deciding this and the reason why it made it to SCOTUS, they said, look, these are completely nefarious bans. These are completely nefarious executive orders by Donald Trump. There's no legitimate reason to discriminate against trans military service members. And yet, unfortunately, you have this decision.
And it was an order that basically said the following, Tim. It basically said, look, If the Trump administration wants to file what we call a petition for writ of certiorari, meaning that they want us, as in SCOTUS, to be able to decide the case on its merits, then okay, we may take this case and we may listen to this case.
And if we do, this kind of ability for the Trump ban to keep on going and this complete evacuation of all trans-military service members is going to be allowed to happen until we render our judgment. But if we decide we're not going to take up this case, then automatically this stay is going to be terminated.
But it's outrageous because, you know, Tim, there's only 4,240 members, only 0.2% of more than 2 million military service members that identify as trans. And so it's very disappointing to see that we have this type of decision that came out of SCOTUS. It doesn't mean it's the final say, but you know what?
It's this type of stuff that's making a lot of us say, who is really making the decisions at SCOTUS right now?
It is so sick. And I think that the heavens have weighed in, because I don't know if people could hear that, but the thunder in New Orleans is raining down, as you explained in detail. This woman who volunteered to serve in our military, who went there. Das ist nicht komplex.
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Chapter 4: What are the implications of the 14th Amendment debate?
But when they don't like the nationwide injunctions, they want to bitch and moan and they want to run to the Supreme Court to get something done about it. Now, I will say that there are sitting justices on the Supreme Court that don't really love this idea of a nationwide injunction.
They're very keen on the idea that you must be a plaintiff that has sustained some type of injury to go to court and get this temporary relief, etc. But in this instance, That is the only issue that is going to be heard on May 15th. And so I caution people, I say knowledge is power. You need to know that there's not going to be a ruling from SCOTUS. But I will add this caveat, Tim.
If the Supreme Court says, that they are not going to allow a nationwide injunction to be applied while something is pending on birthright citizenship, then you and I both know that the practical effect would be that only the plaintiffs would get the protection versus other people who would then be kicked the hell out of the United States, which is a Trump administration specialty.
So we got to watch this case very carefully, even though it's kind of a technical issue. It's still a very important issue for all Americans at this point.
Yeah, no, a lot of people get screwed in the meantime. We're already seeing this. It'll give them credit. And once people are deported, getting them back becomes a much more challenging prospect than if there's an injunction here.
The other thing is, just because the 14th Amendment is so clear, just because this birthright citizenship case is so clear, SCOTUS stopping the nationwide injunction on this, even if they end up ruling the right way on it eventually, basically would totally neuter these Das wäre eine andere Wahrnehmung.
And think about this. Matt Kaczmarek, who is in Texas, and he's the king of Republican forum shopping cases, right? Everybody wants to run to him in Texas. He's the one who entered the nationwide ban on Mifepristone, and that ended up winding its way to the Supreme Court, right? I mean, Biden and his administration, he listened to what the judges say, you know?
I mean, these are the things that I'm saying is the hypocrisy of the GOP right now. I'm always troubled, too, because I don't know about you, but I feel like Du hast immer viele ehemalige Lehrer oder Lehrerinnen, die Politiker werden. Ich fühle mich, dass das der Fall ist. Es ist eine Art Trend. Und wenn du also ein Lehrer bist, weißt du, dass du von den Regeln abhängig sein musst.
Du musst von den Regeln abhängig sein. Du musst von all diesen Dingen abhängig sein, Tim. Und du hast diese GOP-Senatoren und Hausmitglieder, die nur ständig da sitzen, während alles in Bezug auf Institutionen und Normen und die Regelung des Landes einfach überflüssigt wird.
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Chapter 5: How is political retribution affecting security clearances?
Kenne ich die Verbrecher? Ist Bieber eine Verbrecherin? Ich habe schon ein paar Bieber-Memes gesehen. Ich bin wie ein Boomer. Ich weiß nicht die Wahrheit von der Realität. Ich bin wie ein Boomer, der diese Informationen via Facebook-Memes bekommt.
Oh Gott, du bekommst es von Facebook aus allen Orten?
Nein, ich meine, an diesem Niveau. Ich bin nicht tatsächlich auf Facebook, aber ich habe ein Facebook-Meme-Niveau-Wissen. Also nicht Bieber.
So no, it's not Justin Bieber. But what I appreciate about that question though, Tim, is think about all the celebrities that surrounded him. How many people were complicit? How many people knew? How many people were also kind of cowed into submission, intimidated or scared that if they spoke up about... P. Diddy, Bad Boy for Life, Sean Combs,
Kannst du dich von deiner öffentlichen Person ausbreiten, von dem, wer du bist? Sein Befehl ist, von seiner Verteidigung, es war komplett konsensuell mit all diesen Gefahren. Und ich bin ein Schwinger, also kannst du mich nicht für meinen Lebensstil beurteilen.
Aber wenn du dich voranbringst in das Publikum und ihr Verbrauch ist, wenn du ein Gangster-Rapper-Kind bist, ist ein Jury, der sagen wird, weißt du was, ich werde mich von der Idee, was du öffentlich bist, ausdrücken und glaube, was du mir im Gericht sagst.
War es alle Frauen? War es alle Frauen?
Alle Gefahren sind Frauen, ja.
Okay.
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Chapter 6: What is the latest on the Diddy Trial?
Yeah, man, that's part of what I learn every day around here is that actually it can get worse.
Yeah, it's one thing to say, it's like, oh, let's beat these guys in the midterms. And that is an achievable goal, right? And that is kind of really a negative goal, honestly. Like, in some ways, you guys are the DCCC, not the Progressive Caucus per se, but the DCCC just has to... Prove that they've broken things and hurt people, right? But then what? I do think that that creates a big challenge.
Then what? And I hate here at the top of the podcast to be the doom and gloom guy.
This is a doomer pod, man. That's great. Welcome.
That's not part of the doom scroll. For me, one of the tracks that I think we might be on in the multiverse here, which world I think we might be in, is one where we can win the midterms and provide some check on Trump in a year and a half, which of course is critical and we've got to do. But then if we go, okay, as long as we just point out that they break stuff,
And then we win the midterm election, which in the midterms is much more voters that read the news. And we just go and win it back that way that we kind of pat ourselves on the back, clean our hands and say, hey, we're good for the next presidential. And then we go get our lunch eaten by J.D. Vance or somebody else like that for eight years after that.
And so if 100 days of this was rough, like 12 years of it to me is unacceptable. And we've got to be thinking about viel größer als nur im nächsten Jahr in der Halbzeit zu gewinnen. Es ist wie, wie lange es dauert, um den Zynismus, der am Herzen ist, mit dem wir uns gerade beschäftigen.
Okay, na gut, ich wollte in die demokratische Sache eingehen, aber wir werden es jetzt einfach überlegen.
Nein, nein, wir können das jetzt erst machen.
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