With Elon's 20-something operatives running the Treasury Department, it's hard not to feel that we've been severed from reality and a better Earth someplace else. Ben Stiller talks with Tim about metaphysics, avoiding politics in public, and advocating for the millions of people displaced around the world. Plus, the origin story of Severance, Adam Scott, John Turturro, and whether the show is a metaphor for life itself. Also, Tim gives a pop quiz, Ben shares his love for the Knicks, and both ponder why there aren't good comedies anymore. Ben Stiller joins Tim Miller. show notes: Watch Severance The Albert Brooks film, 'Real Life.' Trailer for "Real Life' Ben's New York Times interview Video of one of Musk's engineers/operatives
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Hey, everybody. I know it was a little bleak yesterday, so I got a treat for you and for me. Ben Stiller wanted to come on the pod. We've been DMing. He does a lot of work with refugees and Everything that's in the news with USAID and everything. I was like, man, Joe, come on. We can talk about your work doing that. But then also take a little break, do some Hollywood chat.
It wasn't maybe quite as light affair as I wanted, but there are at least some laughs for everybody. So I hope you enjoy it. We're taping this on Tuesday afternoon because I'm headed out to Palm Springs for a book festival for the rest of the week. And so if something happens between Tuesday night and Wednesday morning that wasn't covered here, you'll know why.
But before we get to Ben, I just had a few stray thoughts on some news items. I just wanted to... to share with everybody. The first one is, it's kind of an action item. Tom Malinowski, former Congressman from New Jersey.
I think we're going to hopefully have him on the pod here in the next couple of weeks to talk about this at greater length, but he has a really, really great piece in the bulwark that was out on Tuesday morning called five things Dems must do to fight Trump. Now go check that out if you haven't, because it gives a real, an action plan. And I know there are a lot of people that feel like,
Maybe lost, including elected Dems and some Dem strategists that I've been talking to. Tom gives some real tangible things folks can do. And reading it, it buoyed me a little bit when I was like, yeah, that's a good idea. That's a good idea. Yeah, this is manageable. I mean, it's bad. All the things Anne was worried about are worth worrying about.
But there are some countervailing influences that the Dems can leverage, including the courts and the people that Biden put on the court recently, but also some strategies from Congress. So hopefully we can talk to Tom about that at greater length. But you should go read the article regardless. Two other just sort of news items I wanted to jump on.
On Friday, I guess it was, I gave the plea to Bill Cassidy to do the right thing, my senator here from Louisiana, acknowledging during the plea that I wasn't exactly optimistic, but... I was thinking there was at least a chance, as they might say in Dumb and Dumber, a different aughts comedy from the ones we're going to be discussing on this podcast. I was thinking there was a chance.
Well, there wasn't a chance. Bill Cassidy caved to Trump. Somebody that absolutely knows better, has demonstrated that he knows better when it comes to vaccines, when it comes to public health, agreed to put RFK Jr. a complete quack unqualified conspiracy theorist in charge of the Health and Human Services Department. He got through in committee on a party line vote.
Cassidy was the one who could have stopped it. By the time this publishes, you know, we might have a schedule for when the actual floor vote will be. But at this point, it seems pretty clear that RFK is going to be Secretary of Health and Human Services. Similarly, Maybe not 100%, but probably 95% likelihood at this point that Tulsi Gabbard is going to be the Director of National Intelligence.
A total fold on this one. We talked about this a little bit with Anne on the podcast yesterday. But across the board, not just Cassidy, Langford, Susan Collins in the case of Gabbard. Unbelievable. Well, believable, but... You know, unbelievable in the sense of un-fucking-believable Susan Collins. And who else? Todd Young. All are going to say that they're going to vote to confirm Gabbard.
So there's that. One last topic. There's been a lot of discussion, and Anne and I made some jokes about it. And a bunch of... Everybody's making jokes about it, which are these little 22-year-old wizards that Elon has running around, running roughshod over our government, using AI to... figure out which government functions should be completely shut down.
They've had some success, obviously, with USAID. There was news out here late Tuesday from CBS saying that USAID missions overseas have been told to shut down. All staff are being recalled to the U.S.
This new USAID deputy who I've mentioned on the pod, Peter Marocco, who was an insurrectionist in the Capitol on January 6th, he told State Department leadership if they didn't come back to America, they'd be evacuated by the military. So that's pretty ominous. So we've got these little 20-somethings running around, shutting down USAID, getting into the treasury payment systems.
And there's been a little bit of pushback about the snark targeting these young men. They are all men, I should mention. Among the pushback, there's this video. I'm going to put it here in the show notes about this guy, Luke, who is one of these young guys. And he seems brilliant. I mean, he was using AI to uncover...
language, previously unread language on these ancient scrolls, deciphering these stories. The first word that they discovered in these ancient Greek scrolls that had been burned was purple. I mean, the guy seems super excited, super smart, super earnest. And I understand the instinct to be like, wait a minute. Let's not tear people down. They aren't responsible for Elon's sins.
I'm sympathetic to that. I really am. I look at these videos and I'm like, wow, this kid is amazing. This is exactly the kind of kid you'd want working in the government in a different situation. And that's the element of this, in a different situation. Some of the other guys have been having people send me links to their social media feeds. They've been retweeting Nick Fuentes, who's this
neo-Nazi, Nazi youth, whatever you want to call it, Groeper, Nazi adjacent, you know, this young kind of white identity politics, the leader of this kind of young men who play white identity politics, who make a lot of racist and conspiratorial statements, you know, he's this, some of these other guys are between the Quintus. So I, you know, Luke might be great.
Some of the other people Elon has doing this might be racist or trolls or not great. I don't know. It doesn't fucking matter is the thing. Like we have laws. We have ways the government should work.
22-year-old wunderkinds who have not had security clearance should not be implementing mass firings of career USAID servants who are running around throughout the world, advancing American soft power, helping people, advancing freedom, helping actually make people healthy, not in the Maha sense, but in the sense of providing medicine to troubled, displaced people who need it.
I mean, a lot of people out there that are doing really good work, earnest workers that shouldn't be bullied by 22-year-olds who are being sent into the government as if this is a fucking private equity firm that's stripping down a company for parts. We have laws. We have regulations. There are ways to go about this.
If there are programs that don't work, they have a Republican fucking Congress and Senate that could pass a piece of legislation that... Done whatever they want. Shutter USAID if you want. Pass it through the House and Senate. Use reconciliation. Get Donald Trump to sign it. Okay. The fact that a couple of these kids might be smart and earnest does not make their mission a noble one.
It does not alibi the fact that Elon Musk is doing this in a way that is extra legal. So I just wanted to take an opportunity to weigh in on that since I didn't want to burden Ben Stiller with that. Ben Stiller is unburdened by what is happening with 22-year-olds in the Department of Treasury. Unfortunately, I'm not. And so, after this, I'll pass it over to Ben. We do severance. We'll dodgeball.
At the very end, he's going to tell me who he thinks famous Ben Stiller characters voted for in the 2024 election. I find that very delightful. We do a little Nuggets and Knicks talk. I hope you guys enjoy it as much as I did. I'll be back on the con Thursday with Friend of the Pod. Look forward to seeing you all then. Up next, Ben Stiller. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast.
I'm your host, Tim Miller. After going full totalitarian autocracy fears yesterday, I promised you a little bit of fun. So I'm delighted to be here with the executive producer of the new Apple Plus show, Severance. I guess it's not a new show. The second season is new out now. And the host of the Severance with Adam and Ben pod. He's done a bunch of other stuff. You might have heard of him.
It's Ben Stiller. How are you doing, Ben? Hey.
Hey, man, it's great to be here. I'm such a fan.
Oh, man, that's embarrassing. But thank you.
And it's mutual, obviously. Yeah, especially I think even the last couple months, it's been great to have you to listen to. you know, sort of work through our reality.
Well, I appreciate that. Because, you know, a big part of me wanted to just like, get under the covers and like watch sad movies and like read, read depressing Nazi era fiction and just like check out but like, unfortunately, I had a job to do. So honestly, it's been good for me to to like kind of wake up and have to do this every day, talk to people, process it, you know, that's that's healthy.
I think about people like you who have to do this and deal with it. Because for me, my first reaction was to do that, was just sort of retreat and go under the covers. And also be grateful that I don't have to deal with it every second of my life. Now then, of course, at a certain point, your conscience kicks in and you're like, I have to say something, I have to do something.
But for someone who has to go out every day and deal with this Really, this craziness, I commend you and appreciate you.
Well, thanks. I mean, it's not exactly the coal mines. I'm not exactly Zoolander in the mines here, but I appreciate it. I'm doing my best. I do want to start one. Well, I guess it's kind of heavy or it could be funny. We could take it whatever way you want. But I was listening to your New York Times interview and you kind of started talking about
like you know the nature of reality in the context of the severance show and so i wanted to start here is this real like are we alive is it possible that we're severed from like a better earth somewhere else you know have you have you thought i've been thinking about that at all the last month it's been a weird month i mean honestly i've been thinking about yeah just reality in general and i don't know if that's just where i'm at in my life or you know
what I've been eating or I don't know, but it's just sort of every day is, and then maybe it's also like where I'm at in my life in terms of, you know, like I'm 59 years old and I'm just thinking about all of that, um, how time goes by and then the actual reality of our world and yeah, the political situation, um,
You know, I think everybody creates in a certain sense their own reality and that like you're it's all so subjective. That's what I think, you know, the nature of reality. That's we could talk about that for hours and hours. I'm not going to give you any insights on it other than I do contemplate it a lot, actually.
You might give me some insights. I'm just thinking about the 19-year-olds that are running the Treasury Department right now, and I'm like, maybe actually there's a 19-year-old up there in the sky running this whole thing, and he's getting a good laugh.
It's a little bit... I mean, it is a little bit crazy, the speed at which things are happening and what's going on. And I guess, you know, it's not really a metaphysical thought, though, but it's just... It's hard to comprehend when things are going. It feels like things are going very, very fast. And also what the actual repercussions of things in our lives are going to be.
I know the people who get affected directly by all the things that are being done right now in the government. But just in terms of when we go through our daily lives, how do we deal with this? It's really that question, coming back to your conscience of what is it that you need to do as a person? Because that's a personal choice that everybody has to make.
Have you thought about this? I mean, you've got to be thinking about how to engage. And obviously, you've done some political engagement before, some charity work, of course. You're doing this. You don't have to do this. I'm sure some people's PR people would be like, why are you going to talk to Tim? Who the hell knows what he's going to get you to say about the president?
And the Scheinhardt wig company might get mad at us, our corporate overlords. So how are you thinking about all that?
Yeah, I think about it day by day and sort of moment by moment and try not to think about it too much in terms of, you know, yeah, like my own sort of like personal sort of my image or something like that because I really feel like you have to go from a place of like, well, just what feels right for me. You know, when it comes to...
engaging on social media and things like that i feel like people feel like if you're going to be on social media you have some sort of responsibility to speak out on everything that's happening and that's just like ridiculous and impossible and nobody needs that no nobody needs that pressure nobody needs to hear everything that ben stiller thinks about everything it's like you have to issue a statement on every public news item as if you're a politician
Or it's like, you're saying too much about this. You're not saying enough about that. And when everything happened over the last year and a half or so with Gaza and Israel, I realized there's no way I'm going to start going back and forth on social media with people about this. That's just a no-win game. And also, I don't want to put my energy into... Into that.
And so I decided to say something by writing something about it and just decided that I'm not going to get into that back and forth, but I have my own feelings about it and I'll express myself when I feel like I need to express myself.
What about the business side of this? I do promise we'll get to severance stuff at the end for severance nerds. We'll do plenty of severance talk because I'm obsessed. But I'm curious about the business side of it.
In my world, in journalism or broadly defined, you're seeing some stuff from the Washington Post, from LA Times, from various other media outlets that are being more cautious now, that are pivoting, they're worried they might get sued. I'm wondering, are you seeing any changes in whether things are getting stifled creatively? From a Hollywood perspective, or do we not know yet?
It's so early. I think everybody's going to have their own personal reaction. And it's impossible not to be aware of the fact that people feel this, you know, that, oh, wow, you know, there can be retribution from the government if you say something wrong. And that's really scary. So just to even be thinking that way is, but, you know, of course, I'm aware of it. I think everybody's aware of it.
And And certain people are just naturally more outspoken and always have been. And I've sort of had my own path with it. But right now, yeah, I think it's definitely a thing that people feel. And in a way, for me, it makes me think about it even more, about what do I really want to say and how do I really feel about something? And I think for artists in times like these, their creative energy...
really goes into expressing what they feel. And there's a lot of amazing work that can come out of times like these that I hope we see.
I kind of feel like we... Didn't get that in the first Trump? I don't know why. It's not that there wasn't great art in the first Trump, but it wasn't like during that four years you look back on that and feel about it the way that you might about the civil rights movement, all this amazing music and movies. Why do you think that is?
Maybe the first time around, it was more about Trump. And then this time around, it's more about the realization that our country... is really deeply divided. For me, it's less about the fact that he won by a majority and that many, many, many people are willing to go down that road. And what is that? So that's actually something that it's always, I think, been about.
And that divide is something that I think you have to sort of wrestle with and acknowledge and figure out and look at your own point of view in that too, and your own prejudice towards people who don't have the same point of view as you.
But I also feel like there's a reality to where we are, and we have to figure out how to go forward and be productive and call out when the line is being crossed, which it seems like it's being crossed. I mean, January 6th, violent offenders being pardoned. That's a line, you know?
It does say something about our country, though. Right. Like, I mean, that is really like we were joking about being under the covers at the beginning. Like, to me, it's more about that. Right. Like the realization that, like, we chose this and that not all of us chose it, but that, like, broadly, the country chose it rather than like a particular like I'm scared that.
I don't know, Eagle Ed Martin in the, you know, DC prosecutor's office is going to come for me. I don't know who the hell knows what will happen, but like, it's less about that. Like the deeper questions to mine kind of are about what it says about the country, I guess. Right.
Yeah, I guess. I mean, and also I think it's like what, you know, what people are getting out of it and what they want out of it. And I think everybody, you know, in the country, people want to have a better standard of living and they don't want to have to you know, pay so much for housing and they want to, you know, or food and all those things are very real and legitimate.
It's just, you know, how you get there and whether you believe that, you know, what Trump is saying. And, but I don't think that motivation behind that is necessarily wrong to want someone who's going to fix those things.
here's an element of it that's a little closer to your work though what what if it's less about wanting to put food on the table or whatever and i'm sure that's true for some people but for other people it was like more about feeling like that the culture was going away from them that like movies were you know all this like woke lash like everything there's we have a
you know, we have a black little mermaid now or whatever, or like the comedians can't do the jokes that they used to do anymore. And like, we need to, and that there's been overreach on that side on the left and that we need to, you know, there needs to be a boomerang back. some of those feelings are probably illegitimate and bigoted. Maybe there's some, some real legitimate feelings there.
I don't know. What do you think about that kind of element of it?
I think that anything you say on that can get twisted around in some other way. I've experienced that. I think the bottom line with that is you just have to go out and, and do it. And you have to go do what you think is funny. Do what you think is creative. Do you know, make what you want to make. And I,
yeah there are realities to what gets made these days that you know it's harder I don't know if it's necessarily related to that as much as to just you know economics in terms of the box office and you know just sort of boring things like that well I think you know broad comedy has not really worked at the box office for a long time until that happens that you know then that will open up the floodgates more but you know to politicize it is tough because everybody has a different point of view on it and a lot of it is legitimate but
There's no one person saying, oh, you can do this or you can't do that.
In some ways, it's like a different side of the same thing. A lot of it is just lawyers and PR people being cautious. Honestly, I understand why some multinational corporation that has a bunch of interest before the government would want to be cautious right now. Because Trump is capricious and will target people.
And I also would understand why that corporation might like not want to publish some, a comedy that is a little bit too provocative or there might be a backlash or whatever, or that they would want to, you know, do something that I think would get them good PR, right? Like all of that is like related to caution. I mean, like some of it's more real than others, right?
Yeah. And I think that's kind of always been there on a certain level in show business. That's been always been part of it. I mean, but honestly, like even like looking at our show, you know, Our show has elements of corporate satire or whatever, or commentary. But Apple makes our show, and I've never, ever experienced them
coming in and saying like oh you shouldn't have this in your shower that you know there's like not gonna get a phone call off to this pod though are you fucking serious like why would you do this okay i was listening to one of the other interviews you're doing you said you're working on a i was hoping to work on an adaptation of the bag man podcast that uh rachel and i did about spiro agnew i love this i keep bringing up the spiro agnew story recently because it was like
He has to resign. The vice president has to resign. It's been a while since I looked at it. It was like $10,000 or something.
Yeah, he was taking out $10,000 or $20,000.
It is funny to tell that story now in the context of the incoming president has a cryptocurrency and the richest man in the world is taking over the Treasury Department. And it's like, man, that was a controversy in the early 70s when Spiro was taking 10 grand for some construction.
It seems quaint. It definitely seems quaint. But that's what is kind of amazing about the story is that you see how at that time... doing something like that, you know, was so, so far over the line and that these guys actually did something about it and how much our, our, our culture has shifted, you know, in what is 50 years.
The other Spiro thing that is actually interesting is he, uh, I mean, he was on the fake news stuff. He was really kind of the earliest person to weaponize that. And it goes back, I mean, I'm sure there was somebody that made, of course, people complained about the media always, but like to really weaponize it and like mass mobilize people.
Yeah, yeah. And he, you know, just deny, deny, deny. He was the guy who did that and had, you know, kind of some weird sort of like, you know, early 70s charisma type thing where he just used that and just basically said, yeah, no, I didn't do it until he was guilty and he admitted it.
I hope that gets made because I think that'd be really good. The Spiro story is good.
Yeah, no, me too, me too.
Y'all. pretty crazy out there. I was just talking to Ben Stiller about whether we're living in a simulation or whether this is real life. So that tells you a little bit something about my mental stability. I'm thinking about what's happening with life and what craziness could be around the corner.
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Go to SelectQuote.com slash Bulwark today to get started. That's SelectQuote.com slash Bulwark. All right. Two more politics things for you, then we'll get to fun. I'm obligated to bring up the fact that the shadow president, Elon Musk, did tweet that you went full retard above a pick of you with your endorsement of Kamala Harris. I guess it was a quote of Tropic Thunder.
That's got to be kind of surreal to be at the, like, this is where we're at, right? To see this guy, like, tweeting the Arsler at you and also, I guess, like, taking over offices in the West Wing and also... Well, that part of it.
I mean, yeah, like, it's sort of like... I would think he might have better things to do with his time or with his rocket ships or whatever it is. The guy's got to be busy. But I think what's more disturbing is how close he is to the president and how involved he is in making decisions about people's jobs and our government when he has no position there.
Has he ever called you? Have you ever got a phone call?
He has not.
I'm just spitballing on you right now. But if you offered him a spot in Tropic Thunder 2, we might be able to get out of some of this stuff. I don't know.
Maybe he wants to finance it. Yeah. It's a drop in the bucket. Give him $200 million, $300 million.
If he finances it, In exchange for that... I'm not going to say simple jack. Could we get USAID back? I don't know. I think that seems like as good an idea as any. These guys do like attention, it seems like.
I would be happy to keep him busy doing that so he's not doing the other stuff he's doing for the next four years.
That's just one idea. Hopefully a germ of an idea could turn into something. Back when I was doing the anti-Trump super PAC way back... four-eyed wrinkles, like in 2016, people kept being like, all the money that these rich guys are putting into the anti-Trump ads, couldn't we just, I don't know, buy them off? Couldn't they have just given that money? Couldn't they have got Trump to the table?
I think in retrospect, that probably would have been more effective than some of the tactics we used.
Yeah, I don't understand how we got here, but I think also the whole... The thing that's going on now with the super rich people in the world who are all behind him has been really concerning, obviously. And I think it's not really that surprising, I guess, that it's human nature and it's greed and it's power and it's all the things that human beings do and have done throughout history.
But it's happening. There's no revelation there.
No, there's no revelation. But it is, I guess, just to expand on your point, it's just so stark. That they would all do it for him. This takes me back to the simulation thing. The four richest people in the world who have FU money are all prostrating themselves for access to the power wielded by this guy.
like it's like it almost is like a mood like you're trying to test the limits of greed like there's a movie script here about like how embarrassing can we make it to get these guys to debase themselves and the answer is like unlimited amount of embarrassment yeah or how obvious or just sort of like and he's just the guy's willing to do it as you has been well documented he's been willing to break the norms all right the other uh
kind of Hollywood and politics thing. I wanted to spit ball by you besides my tropic thunder idea, which I just came up with on the fly. I'm feeling pretty good about, um, I was wondering if, you know, you, I guess had done them fundraisers. I haven't talked to Dems at some level.
I do wonder, like a lot of times they rely on Hollywood a little too much about for various things, but I do wonder if they might be able to learn some lessons from Hollywood on like mass marketing to people. Like I was watching the Tim, Timothee Chalamet, Bob Dylan, you know, media tour, um,
And, um, he's like this liberal noodle boy from New York that had mostly like girls and gay fans, like up until two minutes ago. And he goes out there and he's like, I'm going to go on Theo Vaughn. I'm going to go do, you know, the college game day and like, we're going to repackage me and put me out there in a way.
that resonates with more like a guy's kind of audience type of people that would like a Bob Dylan movie. And that worked. And I do wonder if there's any lessons there for Democrats. I might push back and do that. I don't know Timothy that well.
No. You know, see him around, see him at Knicks games. I think he's a genuine sports fan. I know he's like an Upper West Side kid, you know, who like genuinely loves sports. So I feel like he was just kind of leaning into and smartly kind of going like, hey, let's do this a little different. I feel like it's organic for him.
So we need a genuine sports fan to be the Dem standard bearers, what you're saying, or somebody that is genuinely more in touch with guy culture? I don't know.
I think what you've been talking about, and I've heard you recently talking about it on the podcast, about just that the Democrats need to figure out a way to get in touch with the electorate that is really connecting with them in a way that the Republicans have. is a huge thing.
And I don't know what the answer is to that, but the reality is that, yeah, it seems like that isn't happening right now. I think everybody's still sort of like regrouping from what's happened, but that's concerning to me for sure.
All right. I want to put this bug in your head because I feel like you've got to have some value here. Like, you know, Night at the Museum, you've like done mass market. There are Republicans buying these shoes. You figured that out. Like there are Republicans going to some of these movies. All right.
So like, there's gotta be, although people get mad at, you know, on X or Twitter or whatever, and we'll say, now I'm not going to watch your movies and all that. And it's like, all right, I, you know, I guess fine.
I, I really, I'm not coming at you in any way other than I'm just expressing how I feel, you know, and I've never really been super political in my, you know, the, what I, the movies I've made, like night of the museum isn't a political screed.
It is not. I also think those people are lying, right? It's like, I dare you to go watch Happy Gilmore and come back and still be, and still, you know, you're really going to cut yourself off from that. You're going to, you're going to cut yourself off from this.
That's their choice. That's your choice. Right. If you have to really look inside and go like, okay, I can't accept what you do because of, you know, who you endorse for president.
All right. One last political thing. I know you've been kind of an advocate and like traveled the world doing, um, Stop talking about displaced people. I had the list in front of me, but I lost it. Oh, here it is. You went to Germany, Jordan, Guatemala, Lebanon. I mean, this is the top of my worry list right now.
I mean, obviously, we have some acute concerns here at home, but I do think we're entering into a phase where there is just not going to be a lot of support anymore from the U.S. for people
who you know we had once been a beacon of hope for we've always been you know obviously some you know times in our history where it hasn't been perfect but yeah yeah the united states has always been a place that's uh accepted people who are fleeing from political persecution is there any stories you have from those trips or anything like something that inspired you
You know, I thought about people when recently, you know, what happened in Syria with Assad. And I thought about the people that I met in displaced persons camps in Jordan who've been there for, you know, seven, eight years at a time I met them waiting to go back home. And when you're meeting with someone who's living in a tent, who's a doctor or whatever,
a lawyer or someone who just is not someone who wants to be there and just by the fate of living in a country that was in the midst of war and was displaced through no fault of their own that their life is completely put on hold and all they want to do is go back home and start their life again and i thought about them you know maybe being able to go back we don't know what's going to happen in syria
The other is so demonized in a way now and feared. And that's the most concerning thing to me is that the message that we put out of welcoming people and welcoming people who can contribute to our country and to our society. And that's the overwhelming evidence is that's what happens with refugees who do come to America.
Yeah, it's going to be a really tough time, but it's really about, and these are human beings, people, kids who have got, I met a kid who had to go to work taking care of his family at 10 years old. And I said, like, you're a really strong kid. He goes, I'm not a kid. I'm a man. And he was 10 years old, taking care of his whole family in Jordan.
So yeah, I just would hope that we get back to being the country that represents that acceptance and what's positive about having people from all over the world be a part of our country, which is how our country was made up originally.
Me too. This was a big one for me. And it's tough. Yeah. You know, some of this can be filled in by NGOs and, you know, people like yourself, right? They're raising money for groups and big donors and foundations. But, like, fundamentally, part of this is nation states need to help, right? Like, there need to be safe harbor countries.
Like, there's a lot of regulatory stuff that goes into, you know, this as far as visas, right? Like, at some level, there's only so much people can do. You know, if you're making the camps nicer, that's one, you know, but, like, come on.
The camps are there and necessary, but like I said, you see people whose lives are just put on hold, and those are not a solution, obviously. The neighboring countries are really the countries that take most of the outflow when there's a situation going on in a country that is at war or whatever it is. I think something like over 100 million displaced people in the world right now, 100 million.
So it's hard to kind of even comprehend that. But yeah, the root causes are what it's about. And I think Filippo Grandi, who's the UN Refugee Agency High Commissioner, is a really good person who spends most of his time going from country to country and talking to governments about what they can do to help. And it's sort of a never-ending process for him.
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No spoilers for anybody else.
Yeah, three episodes in. When this goes on, well, episode four comes on Thursday night.
On Thursday. So it'll be coming tomorrow. Episode four will be coming tomorrow. No spoilers for me until I get back home over the weekend because I'm going to be missing it. I'm on the road tomorrow. But I guess just at the beginning, what was it? I mean, obviously, it's like you have a production company. You have your pick of the litter, I assume.
What was it that appealed to you about Severance?
It was a script that got sent to our production company, a spec script. Somebody wrote Dan Erickson, who now is the creator of the show. And he had never had anything produced. And it was just, it reminded me of just all my, I don't know, favorite shows. It reminded me of Twilight Zone. It reminded me of The Office. It had just like a weird, just kind of sort of like alternate reality vibe to it.
But it was also a workplace comedy and the dialogue was so funny. And I met with him and it just, we were in sync. I was like, this could be great. And yeah, It took a few years to make it, to get it off the ground, but it was just something I wanted to see. Why?
Why did it take long?
Because Apple didn't exist yet, Apple TV+. They were just starting up. And then we developed it for a while, and then you kind of go back, like writing out the rest of the season. And then we had a casting issue where we didn't settle on Adam Scott because I wanted Adam Scott for a long time. And we finally got to the place where everybody was on the same page. And...
I wasn't going to make it if he wasn't doing it.
Yeah, he's so good. It's funny, all these things, whenever I listen to Hollywood podcasts, these background conversations, and you hear the alternate paths, the show would feel weird not on Apple Plus and not with Adam, right? It does feel very aligned with the whole vibe of what the other stuff is on that streamer. And then Adam is so great. I'm like, who else would have this? Exactly.
Adam, to me, there was never anybody else, but also the synchronicity, I think, of just being on Apple TV+, which we didn't know what it would be, but it just feels like that's the home for it. And we pitched it to all the different streamers and nobody wanted it except Apple.
You also have Totoro in there. I guess he's not a podcast listener because he didn't recognize me, but we were shopping together in Brooklyn the other day. Oh, really? Yeah, it cracked me up because he was doing his own costuming.
He was talking to the guy where I'm at some boutique store, and he's talking to the owner of the store, and he's like, yeah, they gave me something, but it's not right, and I want something else.
it was like such a scene he's like he's super stylish too yeah he looked great and i was like i have to buy something from the store now so it worked out for the um did you see he walked the runway in in milan brazilia i did not a couple weeks ago yeah I gotta go. I gotta go pull that up when we're finished. But I, and he's like that.
It's gotta just be a joy to be a giant tutorial every day or not every day, but for the time that you're on set.
Yeah. Before I didn't know him, I'd just been a fan and we'd cross paths a couple of times. I remember I ran into him once in an editing room. I was editing something. He was editing something. We'd, talked about maybe working together someday. He's so intense and he's so committed. And I feel like he's one of the reasons the show works is because you just believe him.
You believe that he believes all that lore and all those crazy ideas. And when the actor believes it, then you invest as an audience. And yeah, it was fun. I feel good now that I know him because at first, The first season, it was a little bit like, I just, you know, a little intimidated by, you know, Totoro. Intimidated by Totoro because of the Jesus character? Yeah, well, the Jesus character.
He's a director. He's frigging intense. He's intelligent. And he's smart because he like, trusting for him is the big thing. And I think that's why he wanted to work with Chris Walken because they were friends. And they had a, you know, built-in trust already. And I think once you earn his trust, it's, you know, then it's just like really fun.
Okay, quick spoiler, if you haven't watched the session, just fast forward 45 seconds. Who had the balls to make a Totoro walk-in love story pitch?
That's not a spoiler.
And I guess it's not a spoiler because it was having a season one.
Yeah, that was Dan Erickson. I mean, it's all out of his head. Watching them develop that was really beautiful, just as a fan, to see that. And it was really fun to see that the fans of the show really embraced that, too.
Yeah, I did. I looked at my husband and I was like, this is goals here. You know, can we be Totoro or Walken 15 years ahead? It's interesting because the show doesn't take place now, right? What time period are we actually in? Do they ever say? I can't.
help you there Tim oh we don't know oh got it it could be yeah we don't ever specify it doesn't take I mean we don't have tick-tock I guess is what I'm telling like you can just there's certain ways that you can sense that it's not the year 2020 yeah it's weird there's there's certain technology that's in the show and then there's certain you know cars don't seem like they're from today but
there's a you know cobell uh patricia arquette's character has a vw rabbit yeah one of my favorite cars it feels very like relevant to the moment like a lot of the themes and a lot of the topics so like how did you feel like that that all worked that all came together well sometimes i think it's easier to do something that is not of the moment and you know it doesn't it was very important for me that we didn't have like cnn or
you know, any brand names that we really recognize. They're like, you know, maybe like a few things you could see there, but really we do everything we can to keep them out because it's its own universe in its own place. And I think that allows it to then, you know, not be commenting on something that's specifically happening right now in the moment.
And I think hopefully it gives it a little bit more of a sort of an, you know, a lifetime, you know, for people to react to in whatever time they watch the show down the line.
As you said, it is a little bit of a corporate commentary, right? Like, obviously, this is kind of a secret corporation, and the characters are, you know, separating their, you know, outside their work life from inside the work life.
To what extent, like, do you think that is, like, particularly pertaining to, you know, the technological questions we're dealing with today, or, you know, something like the big tech giants? Is there anything that is specifically on point towards that, or is it more of a
speaking you know kind of to like any place any time there have always been these these sorts of sacrifices you make i think the idea of working at a big company a big corporation is you know what's there in the show and you know he wrote that script close to 10 years ago the pilot oh wow we started making it before covet and then all of a sudden we were making it during covet and then it was like a show about you know isolation
So it's interesting how certain ideas, I think if there's something that's universal in them, and I think this idea of going to a job that you work for this sort of unknown boss who we don't know who the board is, we don't know who the CEO is really, and we know who he is, but we don't know what they're doing, why they're doing it. These people literally have no idea what they're doing there.
And I think there's something that people can relate to in a certain level. I also love the metaphor of just life, of like, you know, we get up, We do our thing. We work hard. We get upset. We fall in love. We do all this stuff. And we have no idea why or really where we're going or what happens when we die.
And so, to me, that greater metaphor is kind of like what's going on with them in the show.
This takes us back to the metaphysical questions of are we in a reality right now? Yeah, I thought you were taking it to the metaphor of life like my life. Like, could I sever having to do this podcast off from the rest of my life? Would you want to? Yeah. Well, I don't know. You're asking me that right this second. I would say no. There would certainly be an appeal.
I think I would enjoy myself at the MJ Lenderman show at Tibbettina's tonight more if I was able to sever off the rest of this, but maybe not.
Well, it's also that question of what you're severing from. What do you actually experience as Tim? Do you experience your innie or your outie, which is the one that you really remember? Because when you're innie, you're innie, and when you're outie, you're outie. Yeah. Do you love doing the podcast or do you dislike doing the podcast?
No, I do. I love it. I don't love that I have to do it. These are the things I have to talk about. I mean, this is fine right now. But, you know, the other things that I have to talk about. But, yeah, I guess that is right. The question is, like, what is it? It's sort of about what...
makes you like you know what is your essence you know and what are what is the thing that like makes you want to experience it makes you you know quote unquote happy you know where's the place you want to be and a lot of people don't want to be at work and that's why dan wrote the show i think is because he was working at a door factory that he had to go to for whatever like eight or nine hours a day and he just wanted to forget that part of his life
Oh, that's funny. They just have the door factory cameo in the second episode. Yeah.
Tribute to Dan.
Yeah, I guess that's true. And also the happiness element of it, right? Maybe that's not true. Maybe I'm happier at the MJ Lunderman show knowing I've earned it. you know? Yeah, sure.
There's an element of that. I personally love doing what I do, but it can be really hard sometimes, but I'm also grateful that I'm not, like you said, you know, Derek Zoolander in the coal mine, you know, it's like, I'm grateful for that.
I, so I don't want to forget what I'm doing, you know, when I go away from it, but then there's always the painful parts of life that we would, I think we all fantasize about forgetting and, But I think one of the themes in the show is really, is what can you forget? You know, what can we really, you can't, you know, what can you suppress?
You can't, we experience things, we can try not to remember them, but something inside of us is going to feel it, whether it's in our body, it's our, you know, memory, whatever, repressed memory. And, you know, there's a lot of research about that, too, about what's, you know, generational trauma, things like that.
It's kind of in conversation with that movie, Eternal Sunshine. Sunshine, yeah. I loved that movie.
Yeah, Michelle Gondry.
Yeah, there definitely are some parallels. I also want to ask about the four tempers. Why are we taming Frolic? The four tempers Keir is taming are woe, frolic, dread, and malice. Curious what those four mean to you.
I mean... You know, what do you want me to tell you? I, you know, I don't know.
What do you think about those four tempers?
From what I've seen, what I've seen in the show, you know, yeah, there's, you know, the myth is that Keir went into the cave and tamed the four tempers. That's what that painting is. We don't know why. Well, I think, you know, it has something to do, maybe the idea of, you know, the 19th century, he was, you know, creating some sort of way of, dealing with, you know, he was kind of a doctor.
He had to, you know, had the first sort of medical med tech company for the 19th century. And he was the humors, you know, the idea of like how people would sometimes try to cure people that weren't necessarily medically oriented and those beliefs. So I can't tell you much more though, Tim, because then I'm in trouble. Yeah.
I think there's something more there. I think there's something you're not telling me. Whoa, frolic, dread and malice. I'm just going to keep thinking about that. All right. My last, my husband's theory on this is that when the brain gets severed, it also affects their comprehension.
So when, so when they're doing the computer games, if they could use their real brain, they could see what is on the computer and it would tell them what the company does. Interesting. What do you think about that? Yeah. It was interesting. All right. I want to close. I have a game I want to close with for you.
But before we get to the game, I had one other topic I forgot, which is kind of related to the game because some of the characters in the game will be relevant in this question. Why can't we make good comedies anymore, like the 2000s? And not because of the stuff we were talking about earlier, just fundamentally, are people out of good ideas? I mean, you had a run...
That was like Zoolander, Dodgeball, Fockers, Meet the Parents, Happy Gilmore. And I was like, what was the best comedy last year? I Googled it. I couldn't find one. I asked our culture editor. He goes, ooh, tough one. Comedy's in a dire spot. He's like, maybe The Fall Guy. And he goes, maybe Nutcrackers. Yeah. Which I haven't seen. I have to admit, I haven't seen. What's the deal?
I don't know. Honestly, I wish I even knew why those movies were working back then. Really. Do you not feel like you know? I feel like at that time, first of all, people were going to the theaters to watch movies. And again, it comes back to that thing of, well, the studios will produce stuff when, when they're making money. So that was happening.
And I feel like until we do that again, now in terms of ideas, like you're asking the wrong guy. Cause like, I feel like I'm always trying to figure out like what's a good idea. And I'm always sort of like ripping it apart. So comedy is hard. I think it's really hard because not everybody's going to laugh at what you think is funny. And when you can find something for some reason at that time,
And everybody was laughing at the same stuff and going for it and enjoying it. And I feel like, you know, studio movies these days really need to get a really, really big audience. And it's a little bit of a chicken and the egg thing when I'm saying because I don't have the answer to it.
Think about how easier it is now to have access to like weed vapes. Right.
you know people are high all the time people have got to be way higher than they were now in the 2000s so you've got to be able to provide something to make high people laugh right they just had to get to the theater and get high that's the thing because it's easy when you have that to stay home and just watch what's on the couch or what you're on from the couch okay well we could start with some apple comedies then or one of the streamers yeah look i'm i'm into it i'm trying actually i'm trying to figure it out but i think it's also we have there's a much younger generation of really funny people out there and
you know, who are trying to do it too.
Oh, I thought you were going to say there's a much younger generation that's brains are broken and that we can't reach them because they have too much anxiety.
You know, there's attention span and stuff like that. But I think there are really, really funny people out there. It's more challenging for them than it was for us at the time to get a movie made like that.
For a minute, I was like, am I just doing the old guy thing where it's like things were so much better when I was a teenager? And then I started doing some Googling, and I was like, no. In this instance, things were better when I was a teenager. But is there anything you just think back on that gives you a chuckle? Any little moments?
I mean, for me, movies like Step Brothers, I could watch that movie all day. That's actually the first thing I saw Adam Scott in when he played Derek, the asshole. It was so funny. Look, I also love the comedies in the 70s too, and there were some great funny movies.
We don't have it happening in the movies right now, and somebody needs to break through with it, but I don't know if I have the answer.
Everybody always asks you about, like, the famous ones. Like, do you have any deep cuts that you really like people should go watch? Any Ben Stiller movies? I mean, I guess Cable Guy is not really a deep cut, but a culture writer, Sonny, also said to me when I was brainstorming with him about this, he was like, prescient. Cable Guy was prescient.
It was kind of about people's obsession with true crime, you know, infotainment. And, like, so you nailed that. Is there anything else like that?
Right, except nobody has cable anymore, so.
Yes, but it's the same. It's just like on here. It's like the same thing. It's like it could be the TikTok guy now and this point would be the same.
Albert Brooks' first movie, Real Life. Did you ever see that? I don't think I have. I've heard of it, but I haven't seen it. He made it like 1980 and it was basically he was doing a parody of... the PBS series about the loud family and American family that they, that was the first reality show. They followed him a family around for a year.
And then he did a takeoff on it where he was a filmmaker doing a documentary about a family. And it's one of the funniest movies ever. And it foresees everything that reality television became.
Real life's on my list. Okay, here's the game we're going to end with. You came on a political podcast, so you asked for this.
Did I make it? Was it entertaining enough and fun? Because I feel like we just talked about heavy sort of stuff.
Yeah, it was cheerier than Ann Applebaum. Oh, really? Do you have any funny stories you want to end with? Yeah, funnier than Bill Kristol and Ann Applebaum.
I enjoy you and Bill Kristol together. You're a good team.
thank you it's kind of like a generational gag kind of humor thing um i mean if you if you feel like you failed us like do you have like a funny story do you have like a tight five or anything like what like if what if we were going on jimmy fallon don't you prep something that's funny for jimmy fallon do you prep anything yeah sometimes and it's always like a lot it's very stressful and it's i always feel like i'm not funny enough and like i'm just the least funny supposedly funny person i know
Got it. So you do, but you do prep. You do prep. So when Jimmy's like, tell me about your teen son's crisis that he had last week.
I used to prep a lot more in the early 90s when I would go on and try to really do it. And then I just sort of got old and tired. But TV talk shows have changed so much. If you watch those shows from the 70s again... Oh, this old guy, Ben talking about like, it's so interesting, because people are talking about real shit.
And then TV talk shows became like, what's your funny story, you have to talk to a pre interviewer. And then they write it out. And it's all it's all like, yeah, yeah.
Okay, that's why podcasts are doing well. I don't know about this one.
It is that's I feel like podcasts are the new talk shows of the you know, what talk shows used to be.
Yeah, like DAX. Have you done DAX?
DAX, yes, I've done DAX.
It's great. I should have listened to your DAX for prep. Okay, we're back to the game. This is good. This is professional podcasting right now. Here it is. I don't have music to go along with it. Maybe we'll put it in a post.
Games stress me out, but let's go.
Who did this character vote for in the 2024 election? The Alzheimer's nurse in Happy Gilmore. Trump. Trump. White Goodman. Trump. I had to say Trump. Trump, okay. Chaz Tenenbaum. Kamala. Kamala for Chaz Tenenbaum. I thought that was borderline. This one was an easy one, but it's a sleeper movie, so I wanted to shout it out. Roger Greenberg. Oh, yeah. I think Kamala for sure. Kamala for sure.
But maybe secretly because, I don't know, he felt like he was double thinking and thinking for his bottom line, but he really doesn't have a bottom line. He doesn't make enough money that he's going to get the tax break, but he wishes he...
Yeah, he might have actually moped and not voted. The James Murphy soundtrack on that is so good. Okay, and finally, your four main characters, the office characters in Severance. Who are they? Who are they voting for in the 2024 election as their outies? Okay. As their outies. Their innies wouldn't know what's happening. I'm not letting you off the hook.
They all voted for Kamala. I don't think that's true. Ellie definitely voted for Trump. No, you're right. Helena. Yeah.
Helena.
Definitely Helena went for Trump, for sure.
The other three for Kamala. Ben Stiller, thank you so much for taking all the time. Everybody go watch Severance. If you are watching it, listen to the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam. It is delightful. And do you have anything else you want to promote? Anything else you're selling?
I do not. I'm just, you know, I'm going to keep listening to your podcast, keep doing your thing. I thought the episode you had with Jon Favreau, you know, post-election was great. I got emotional listening to that.
Yeah, thanks. I kind of feel like when I get those bros over on my pod, I kind of let their hair down a little more and like give, you know, kind of.
they're not worried that the that the audience might get mad yeah yeah and uh so we got him to let loose yeah we had like 18 minutes of just like his inner anger came out and for for he's he's kind of a vulcan you know so like getting his inner anger out i thought was i i enjoyed it so i'm glad you did um do you want to talk about the nuggets or the next at all Oh, fuck!
We were supposed to talk about that. Let's do it really quick. How do you feel?
I feel really good. The trade deadline is imminent. You're not going to do anything. I don't think so. I think Mitchell Robinson is in place of the trade deadline as he's going to come back and start playing for us. I feel really good. I feel like the Knicks are starting to gel and Jalen Brunson has changed the culture.
They're so fun to watch. And Cat in New York, huge. I was like, is this really going to work? Because he's kind of an eccentric guy in the big New York media.
And he's thriving. It's crazy. I had the same concern. I didn't know what was going to happen. And just seeing him, and we started calling Brunson Cap.
it's certainly just right from the the get-go they bonded and he's having a career year he's had a little issues because he hurt his thumb but i'm i feel like i love tibbs i'm all in with tibbs he's playing uh the starters less minutes it's you know it's in a good trajectory yeah it's good i'm i mean i don't want to jinx you so i won't say that i'm rooting for the next because my my rooting interest with the obvious one nuggets exception usually don't turn out that well but um
I've got my Donovan Mitchell hate from our bubble jazz Nuggets rivalry days. So I can't be for the Cavs. Okay. F the Celtics, obviously. Yes. F the Sixers, obviously. So I don't know. The Knicks are kind of like, in a weird way, it's like New York. So usually, you know, like the Yankees are always hated. But the Knicks are kind of like the lovable...
team I think even for people that aren't like Knicks fans like you they're very accessible they're good guys they don't have a lot of attitude at all you know they're just like regular funny guys and uh Josh Hart come on Josh Hart there's like no one better did you go to the games growing up like I did so so what what era would that have been Ewing I was there at eight years old in 1973.
Clyde Frazier had been on that team already?
73?
Oh, man. You look great, man. I wouldn't have pegged you for going back Earl Monroe, Clyde Frazier era.
Yeah. So I remember my dad taking me. And I remember what that felt like. So it's been a long time. It has been a long time. We're ready. We're really ready. And then, obviously, the late 90s. I was living in LA in the late 90s and wasn't really there that much. But as a teenager through Bernard King era, I was there and it was, he was my guy.
I feel like this year, next year, these are going to be great years.
Now I'm worried about you. I'm worried about the letdown, like the crash might be kind of hard if it doesn't happen.
But I've gone through, I mean, nothing can hurt me because I've been through the pain.
What'd you think about the Luca trade?
I mean, I feel like I don't understand it. I don't understand why they would do that.
Is it possible that Nico, the GM, was severed from what was happening on the basketball court when he was making the deal with the Lakers?
It was like a weird Rob Palenka, Nico, yeah, like dual severance thing. I don't know what was going on there. I don't understand it. And I like Dallas a lot. And I think, weirdly, maybe the Mavericks might do well in the short term. Yeah, I do too. But, I mean, Luka is Luka.
I mean, they definitely are scarier against the Nuggets this year for like the year 2025, having AD and those two centers that they got. Like they got a lot of size to throw at Jokic. That's how the Timberwolves beat us. So I kind of don't want to draw them in the playoffs this year. But it's still insane long term.
Right. And then you got the Spurs now with Fox and Wembley. I mean, it's shifted a little bit.
The West is going to be tough. I don't know. It'll be interesting. I don't know about the Luca LeBron pairing, but long-term Luke is going to be unbelievable there. It's just, I don't know. How do the Lakers get so effing lucky?
The Lakers are the Lakers. Yeah.
They seem to, you know, if we weren't in a simulation, if the NBA wasn't rigged, like if, if every once in a while, you know, bat like karma hit people that deserve to get bad karma for once, what would happen would be, Luca was like, I didn't agree to go to the Lakers. I don't really like LA. I'm pasty skinned. It's too much glitz and glamour for me. I love my boy Jokic.
I'm going to sign with the Nuggets when my contract expires. That would be, we never get to have nice things like that. Like, you know, it's a smaller market team getting a free agent, but I don't see that happening for us.
Well, nobody got a chance at Luca. I know. This happened in the dead of night, this deal, this weird severed deal. Yeah.
I think it was a separate, there've been a lot of conspiracy theories out there, but I think that like Nico just maybe seeing Luca looking fat in like, maybe in like the office building, but then it's, it's, he gets, his brain gets severed when he's watching the court. That's like a different thing than when he's meeting with them. And he's like, why is this fat guy the best player on our team?
I need to get somebody else.
Yeah, and also you can get in shape. He's 25. It seems like everybody's afraid to say, oh, we want you to be in shape more.
I love that Russillo in his sports pod, he was like, Luca could be smoking cigarettes on the bench and I still would not have made this trade.
Well, it's true. The guy is incredible.
He's incredible. All right. I'm glad. That was a good prompt. Thank you. You're in charge of the show now. Come back anytime. I really appreciate it. Thanks, man. All right. Ben Silver. Everybody, go listen to the Severance podcast. We'll be back here tomorrow. We're going to have to talk more about the news tomorrow. I'm sorry. We'll be back here tomorrow. We'll see you all then. Peace.
You let go, pass it by And I know how to feel Write it off when I feel Every word is a steal Every moment in the back Just a moment to heal I will wait for another today I will hold you if only you say Listen close, let her know, let her know
Me to take it out Passing by something That's a judgment without hope. That's a judgment without hope. Once you see, how can I hear? Once you hear, that's how I know. That's a judgment without hope. That's a judgment without hope. UC at UCR. If I see, that's how I start.
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.