Chris
Appearances
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And they test the sewage, and it turns out there's a lot in there.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Oh, how about that? Is that spicy or what? Yeah, that's my, my, my. I don't get the hostility quite because you can have both, right? Like you can have something that would – it would be great to have something that is an advanced tool that generates pictures to my specifications. And then if I as a human want to use it, that seems fine. But as a human, I don't have to use it either.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
What do you say we go back in time and tell the people the good story of how we recall the growth and history of DevOps? This was suggested by Editor Drew, and I love the idea because You know, part of this journey was captured, I think, on our show. Oh, yeah. When we were doing the pod, or in the early days, we were watching this go down.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
So, I don't know, do you have any particular spot you want to start with this?
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
In 2009, just for a little bit of history, the first DevOps Day conference was held in Belgium. And I feel like around this time, there was a power dynamic. developing between developers that needed to push code to like a web production or some production system and the system administrators that built those systems.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And on the sysadmin side, you'd have frustration with developers that didn't understand how the security dynamics worked or didn't understand all of the requirements that we had to run the system and wouldn't go through the hoops that we didn't want to set up, but we had to set up so that way we would be compliant, et cetera. And on the developer side, you had like,
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
But there's definitely some hostility in there including F-bombs about it.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
It seemed like IT was slow to respond. We just want to push this thing out and we have to wait two days before they get a guy on it so we can move our files for us. Why can't we just move our own files? And this was a frustration brewing between two sides of the folks that needed to use the same system.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And it broke towards the developer eventually because companies needed the software to be built more than they needed the sysadmins to be happy and the systems would be architected correctly. Not the developer's can't architect the system correctly. But at the time, you had people like their entire focus for their entire career was deploying and managing systems.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And you had people, their entire focus was development. And the two didn't really share the two jobs. That's not really the case anymore. And we've also had significant tooling built out, which is really what I think made DevOps very possible, is you could start to manage systems pragmatically. It started to make sense to a developer how you could manage a system.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
When I zoom out, I think the fact that a company can say that and they're getting notoriety for saying that is an indication that there has been a sentiment shift.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Yeah, you're right. And that made it way more approachable for people to deploy software. And then there was a lot of grousing. Well, they don't actually know how the system works. But I think we're kind of past all that now. And people. We are not. No, you don't think so. You still think there's.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Well, OK, we're not fully past it, but there are people that can be both excellent developers and excellent system administrators. I felt very strongly against that back in the day.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Mike, do you mean the official programming language of the Coder Radio program?
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
You know what else I remember about DevOps? One more thing before we completely move off of it. This truly was the birth of intense business jargon and project jargon coming into system administration.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
I just think that it's kind of a shame. And a lot of times when I hear a group of people talking the abstract, I think it often indicates they don't understand the fundamentals. And you had that kind of happen is these intense, vague names and descriptions of things started to get used more. And it's not that jargon wasn't technical beforehand.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
It was technical, but it was specific and it was purposeful. And we saw kind of like this mal-change. I don't know. I think it was a bad change because we went from experts that are proficient in their field speaking to other experts, to everybody kind of talking in these abstracts, which was necessary, I think, but unfortunate and almost so bad you could parody it.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And so that was one of the things that I just really got turned off when I was in the industry back then and just really turned me off was that kind of shift. And I know it's a weird complaint now, but it was a thing.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Yes. Well, I think that's, it's this in there is this waterfall to Agile kind of transition as well.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Oh, yeah, they'd love it. So much money to be made to help you manage this.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Mike, to be fair, there's a good portion of Outlook in there, too. So they do Outlook and PowerPoints. Fuck Outlook. Right, right. gives me headaches not even kidding I do a lot of custom integrations for SharePoint with Alice now and I just do not like it I must have said this on the show before but I literally had a co-worker that I sat next to and you know these were like short wall cubicles
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And he spent all day in Outlook. He did not – I don't even know if he had any other applications installed on his computer. And as a tech guy, I'm always paying attention to this. So he never – he would just sit there in Outlook all day long going between his calendar and his inbox. And then he would get up and go to meetings and he'd bring a paper pad.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And then he'd come back, and he'd spend the rest of the day in Outlook. I don't even know what he was doing. But he just never ran any other applications on his computer.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
You know, because even well, even if you're well, but here's what I mean. It's like even if you're a system administrator, you're kind of doing things the DevOps way now.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Oh, that's good context. With this framing, it's like they're taking the anti-Adobe position, because Adobe's all in.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Well, this is where I was going to go. Now it's cloud. It's cloud now.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Well, what we have now is we have people that are AWS shops, Azure shops, Google Cloud shops. And that's a vertical. It's not like before it was the entire industry. But now you specialize in that vertical. It's a different thing. And you want to talk about jargon heavy.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Yeah, makes sense. Coder.show slash boost. Yeah, you can boost from the web now. And here's why we like the boost. There is no middleman. I think you'll probably recall we were just recently talking about Patreon and how they're changing the whole deal on their creators. I mean, they're claiming... Apple's making them do it. But then why make everyone change even outside the app?
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Like these kinds of things, you don't want to build a foundation on top of. And we want to do this for another 15, 20, 30 years, as long as the old voice box holds out. We don't want a middleman. The other thing that is a real reality the last couple of years is sats are a scarce asset. There's only 21 million Bitcoin total. So what you're doing is when you're boosting, you're boosting sats.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
You're helping the network hedge against currency debasement. Inflation hits small businesses excruciatingly hard. And for the media business, the ad rates or just have been going down in some cases or just completely gone combined with the cost of business going up because of inflation. So with sats, we can be strategic in our timing.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
We can hold on to them if we want or if we need to cash them out. Now we can't. Big thing is we don't have to worry about inflation melting away a strategic reserve that we can pull from as the network has expenses. And then a big one for us, it's all an open standard and it's all open source.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
From the monetary unit on the network to the self-hosted infrastructure to receive the boosts and everything in between that glues it all together. It's all open source. It's all self-hosted. It's programmable money and the workflow is only getting easier for you and the podcaster. You grab the Strike app, try out something like Fountain, link them up, and you're set.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Or you can boost from the web, too. You don't even need the Fountain app anymore. And if you send a boost of 2,000 sats or more, we'll read your message on the show. It's a powerful system, but maybe it's not for you. Maybe you want to put your membership on autopilot. Well, we got a version for you. You go to coder.show slash membership, and you'll also get an ad-free version of the show, i.e.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
you won't have to hear this anymore. If you use the promo code SUMMER as well, you can take $1 a month off forever! The Coder Program is an acquired taste, and we appreciate your support. Either a membership or a boost, it means a lot to us, and it keeps us going. That's Coder.show slash boost to boost from the web, or Coder.show slash membership to put your support on autopilot.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
So we have a report from Mark Gurman over at Bloomberg, and he says that Apple is developing a tabletop robot. Here, I'll play a little bit of his interview so we can hear it in his own words.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Really, I mean, full-on humanoid robots at some point, too. Yeah, and the other thing that's sort of interesting in here is this is a subsidiary of Foxconn that's taking on the manufacturing of this, and this subsidiary has built robots, one robot, a manufacturing robot for Foxconn. The code name, they say, for this Apple robot project is J595, if anybody wants to look it up.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Jeez. Well, maybe people will have money again by then to spend on stuff like this.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Apple has lost it. They've lost their way. And I go back to – I've said this comment before. I think the problem is, is that the folks that run Apple, it's kind of like an oligarchy over there. And there's a few key people, some of whom have been around since the jobs days, that make all the decisions. And you can see them on their website. You see them in the WWDC events.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
They make the big decisions. And the problem is, is they have been privileged and rich for 30 years and they don't work for a living like we work for a living. They work, but not with the common people do. And they don't know what problems people are trying to solve in the real world. And so all they can try to do is come up with the next big Apple product in like their echo chamber.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And so what you get is a thousand dollar tabletop iPad that follows you around like a creep.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
I look at what a flop so far the Vision Pro has been. Vision Pro is going nowhere. I guess they're selling for like half price on eBay right now. You know, when they come down to like 30% of the price, I might get one.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Yeah. So there's that. Also, so get this. Tesla is hiring humans. to train the Optimus robot via motion capture like you do for a movie. And so Tesla's hiring very specific people. They need somebody between 5'7 and 5'11 because Optimus is likely to have a height of 5'8. And they've hired over 50 people in the last year that fit this description that are using mocap suits to do different tasks.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Now you're spitting some wisdom here when you're saying that fear leads to anger. That's got to be what it is. But still, it's an interesting shift in the tone. I don't know. You know, I just look back and I think, what a wild year and a half it was around AI. And when it first kicked off, you could say no wrong. And we're still kind of in that era.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And they do these different tasks in these simulated real-world environments. Like doing the dishes? I don't know. Probably not that. But they do the task in these mocap suits, and then they use it to train the robot how to do the same task. That's what Tesla's doing right now. Full-on humanoid robots. We went from LLMs to robots real quick, Mike. Well, we need our next, you know, thing.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Isn't that something? I mean, that is. I thought, you know, maybe it'd be quantum computing. But no, it's LLMs because these robots have to be able to understand us, right? So just the LLM is going to empower it. So it's like the two play into each other.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
If I were going to buy a robot for the house, I'd probably be more willing to buy an Apple robot, though, than a Tesla robot or a Microsoft robot or a GM robot.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
What's Palmer Luckey's company's name? I wonder if they're going to make a domestic robot. How about Palantir's robot? Yeah. So just wild. So that's their next moonshot. So they've killed the car. And they're going for robots. I just got to ask you out there, audience. Would you do it? No. A robot powered by Siri? Are you crazy? Well, come on now. So it's 2026.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
So let's say we're on generation two of Apple intelligence. Let's say it's actually good at figuring a few things out. You know, there's stuff around the house that sucks. You know, there's stuff around the office here that needs done. I don't know what this robot would be capable of, but if it could solve actual problems. I'd be interested.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
I doubt it, though, because we never even got there with the virtual LadyTube assistants. We never got to the point where my LadyTube could contact Mike's LadyTube and automatically arrange a meeting on our two calendars. They couldn't even handle basic stuff like reservations, restaurants, or just two people with LadyTubes making a meeting like an actual assistant would do. We never got there.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
So I'm just very skeptical. But if it was functional, somebody could mow the lawn or I don't know what it would do. Dishes? Cook? I don't know what you have a robot do in your house. But repairs? What if it could do repairs?
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Yeah, good show. All right. All right, well, why don't we... We got a few emails. You want to get into some of these emails?
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
R. Allen lives in a moose-based place, he says, I guess. Oh, no, that was supposed to be the most based place. All right, that makes a lot more sense. So I was kvetching about the traffic cameras in my area that automatically capture my license plate. And R. Allen writes, traffic cameras are not used in Missouri.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
What happened is people started putting fake paper tags on their cars and paper masks of city officials on. So like a paper mask on your face of the city official. Then they would start running the red lights at 2 a.m., which automatically sent the tickets to the people in charge. That's so badass. We would never do anything like that here. He goes on to say they want to weaponize traffic cameras.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Then we'll just point it right back at them. Selling the telemetry from your car and using it to deny you a way to work. You just don't buy from them or buy an older model. He says, I'm old and cranky and I'm not afraid to mess up some jerks on my way out the door. Thank you, R. Allen. We need more people like you out there messing up the jerks.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
I think another sign of when things will really have turned is when... Everyone finally starts talking about how horribly creepy WorldCoin is and the fact that Sam Altman is tied to this horrible, creepy cryptocurrency that wants to track your eyeball scan on a blockchain. and it'll give you $25 of their fake world coin to do it or whatever.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
I've clearly lived in the Pacific Northwest for too long. It never even occurred to me, I guess probably because it's probably violating the law, but paper tags and masks to look like the officials' cars and drivers and then to intentionally run the lights. That's so rebel. I can't believe I never heard that before.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
That is. That is. Thank you, R. Allen. Mike the Forgotten writes in about CrowdStrike. He says, I was just listening to the conversation about CrowdStrike, and I share your frustration, but from the angle of software engineering.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
So many tech companies call their developers, quote, engineers, but it's events like this that demonstrate why, quote, real professional engineers, those who took the standardized test, look down on people that call themselves engineers. This problem was preventable, but instead of engineering a solution, they built the equivalent of someone doing a DIY for the first time. We...
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
The software industry have to do better. We don't have any official regulation or certifications that we need to pass like other industries do, but when one of your devs has a bad day and it costs the whole world $5.4 billion in losses, you can sure bet that we have the same or even higher impact.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
You could argue that no lives were lost, so we don't need the same scrutiny as someone building a bridge, but I would counter that No lives were lost this time. It's just a matter of time, though. What if one of those delays was a cancer patient and days, months, or years were cut off of their life because they missed a treatment window?
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
The only way we can prevent regulation is by actually engineering solutions and self-governing ourselves.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
This is why I had some big energy towards Microsoft. I mean, I realized they didn't distribute the faulty code. Yeah, it wasn't them, right? But it was their fragile operating system and its crappy boot process that hasn't been better engineered. Right.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Like Microsoft should be building their operating system to withstand flawed software because we have 35, 40 years now of data to show us that people are going to ship software on your operating system that does bad things. And so we should build that way. And the way we do that is by making the boot process more robust. So it knows how many times it's failed.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And if it's multiple times, it boots into a backup image. They have backup images. They're called shadow copies. So make them frickin bootable. And that's all you got to do to have solved for this is you just have it come up in a recovery mode where it disables the boot drivers because it failed twice. And they would have solved for this.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
So I put the blame on Microsoft because they didn't engineer the foundation that CrowdStrike built upon. Now, CrowdStrike screwed up. They shouldn't have done that, and it's super embarrassing, and I think they've been let off way too easy to the point where it's bizarre.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
No, they sent out – Mike, they sent out Uber cards. You're good. They're good.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
It's the creepiest thing, and it's the quintessential definition of tech bro thinks he's invented something to solve problems for a country he's hardly ever been to and is also creating the very problem that creates the need. And that's not getting talked about. Like, so we're clearly not fully in the we can talk about everything phase yet. But Mr. Kuda coming out here feels like a sea shift.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
How do I do that? I just realized Microsoft has zero incentive to improve this. They already have the dominance. They can't. And they would love a nice moat.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
It's a great moment to take a little snipe and then, well, it wouldn't have happened if we hadn't been forced to build our system by regulation.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Unless they're listening to our show. You should let us know. Or my lawyer. Maybe we should hire you. So if you're a lawyer and you're listening to the show, email in. Somebody is going to sue us for libel money. Yeah, we should build out some contacts.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
That would be fascinating because CrowdStrike is a very politically connected entity.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Actually, they're very proud. They're going to be the global regulator of tech, don't you know? What if you just don't let them?
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
YouTube should be its own company. The browsers should all be their own company.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Yeah, you'd just stick it with something else at this point.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And then you combine that with the activity that's happening on Wall Street. I don't know if anybody cares, but you're seeing the rotation from the Magnificent Seven that we witnessed for the last year or so. You're seeing them rotate into what's called smaller caps, which means smaller market cap companies.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Yeah, I wonder if this will be a talking point Microsoft uses in the future, the next time regulators come out.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Well, and guess who's one of their biggest customers? The government.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Yes, I remember this. I do remember this. I remember this piece. I don't remember what it was.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
This is Coder Radio, recorded on August 19th, 2024. Hey friend, welcome in to Jupyter Broadcasting's weekly talk show, taking a pragmatic look at the art and the business of software development and the world of technology. My name is Chris, and recovering from his visit with President Roswell, it's our host, Mr. Dominic. Hello, Mike.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Business? We'll see. I'd be curious to know what their response is. Now, as it happens, just as a matter of production schedule, we are recording ahead this week, which means that someone may have boosted in a new official language, but we don't know. And by default, that makes Go the official language one more week. And as promised, since Devator is listening live, we have our Go track.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
This was created by Mr. Wes Payne, and it is inspired in the classic style of Avril Lavigne, and it is the official language of the Coda Radio program for Go.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
All right. That's not bad. It kind of sounds like Sirius XM radio, but it's not that bad. It's not bad. We'll take it. Thank you, everybody, who does support the show, our Coder QAQ. Thank you very much. Coder.show slash membership if you'd like to put your support on autopilot. And thank you, everybody, who does boost in with one of those new podcast apps at podcastapps.com.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
We'll be getting to your messages. We're back to our regularly scheduled program. I think I'll have just gotten back from Toronto when we talk.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Yeah. Maybe they mean well. I don't know them. It's possible they mean well, Mike. Maybe they're just stupid. No, I don't think they're stupid. They mean well, but they're dumb. So you think they're evil then? Because if they're smart, then that's not good because that means they're evil. I'll let more qualified people speak on this one. I'd love to know. I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And there's smaller tech companies that have much, much, much more regular everyday missions and valuations and not these crazy long shot AI NVIDIA plays. So the stock market is moving where it's putting its money to. And it's AI still getting money, of course. But it's not the only thing getting money now. And then you see CUDA coming out here saying, you know, F off AI.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Coder.show slash contact or if it's really mean, boost it in. Links to what we talked about today.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
You're going to yell at me after all. Really, you actually this week. Coder.show slash 585 for links to what we talked about today. At least some of it. And, of course, over there you'll find information about our Matrix chat room going 24-7, our RSS feed. And we should be live next Tuesday at noon Pacific, 3 p.m. Eastern. But you can always get the deets at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Thanks so much for joining us on this week's episode of the Coder Radio Program. See you right back here next week.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
You know, you kind of came in hot. I saw the video. It was all over Twitter. Oh, you know. Speaking of coming in hot, you know, everybody has been jumping in on the AI hype. But I think maybe we're starting to see the beginning of the trend reversal. I don't know if the name James Kuda rings a bell. He's not the inventor of Kuda, as far as I know. But he is the CEO of Procreate.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
There's a... I think the bubble is... Perhaps we're finally getting to that phase where we're going to slowly settle down on the actual things that are left and practical that get implemented and put into production. You know, I go back to just as an example. A few years ago, the edge and IOT was all the talk. It's just a few years ago. I was down at Dell during the peak of this.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And most of what Dell showed me wasn't their Linux systems. It was all of their IoT stuff and this new edge management platform that they were going to work with the Linux Foundation to open source because IoT and the edge are the next frontier of technology. And it was all they all the tech industry talked about for years. Well, like three years until it just became normal.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And standardized and internalized and the hype faded and we sort of settled on a practical implementation of these things and a practical use case where we put things on the edge versus centralized. But that was a huge conversation for a while, and now we don't talk about edge devices and IoT at all.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
It's because… The tech industry has sort of been what's holding up the S&P 500 and everybody's 401ks and everybody's investment in the stock market has really been – I mean there's other companies like Defense and there's been healthcare. But when you zoom out since the dot-com boom, tech has been an exponential performer. Today, as we record, Google IPO'd 20 years ago.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Tech has been a significant market grower, one of the few sources of growth in the United States for the last 20 years. And so I think the reason why they've got addicted to chasing bubble after bubble is because the entire financial system in the country is hooked on tech. And they refer to tech as a risk on kind of investment. So they consider tech stocks to be volatile and somewhat risky.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
But that's the kind of stuff that the market likes to play to get returns is the volatile stuff. And so they look at tech as this volatile play to get good big gains and their big bets on Wall Street. And they got hooked on it. And so now tech is expected to continually deliver on that. So they're jumping faster and harder into every next thing that comes along because everything's riding on it.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
If I could just for a moment mention inflation is still up. It is going up at a slower pace right now.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
So right now we're kind of – everybody is celebrating because like I think the CPI went to 3 or 2.9. It's in that range. It's a matter of kind of probably margin of error now. But that means it's still gaining. So think of it like this. Three years ago, you put on 36 pounds in one year. That was really bad. And then the next year, you put on 12 pounds. And now this year, you've put on six pounds.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
You're still way overweight. You're just putting on weight slower. That's what we're celebrating right now. Inflation is still above the Fed's 2% target by about a full percent. And I would argue 2% inflation is still ridiculous theft. So it's not solved.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
which is a very popular design app on the iPad. And he posted a video about how Procreate is not implementing AI features. And everybody's been asking, when AI features? When AI features? It's pretty spicy, so I wanted to play a moment of it for you. Are we rolling?
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
It's still extremely expensive to operate a family or a business unless you're in our audience's demographic for a lot of them who are in very well-to-do tech jobs. That's the class that has been impacted, I think, the least by all of this in the last couple of years. Ironically, most of them are in our listener base, I would bet, is people that have good-paying tech jobs that have –
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Frankly, probably overpaid relative to other industries for a long time. And so they've been ahead for a while. They've been making enough that they have buffer here that if eggs go from three dollars to eight dollars, they can still buy those eggs.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Just give it another month. It's coming back. That's what I feel. I feel like we're... We're just about on the other side of this. You and I... We've been talking about this for a while because you and I started giving people a heads up it was coming six months or so before it started happening. And told we were nuts. Right.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And now here we are on the other end of it and we're telling you it's about to ease up. But it got rough. It got really rough. Like bad. Well, OK.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Of course. You know what, Mike? They have no other route because this has been happening since 2008. So you have people now.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
Yeah. I mean, it's been happening for a long time. Actually, if you look at if you look at Federal Reserve policy, they got really accommodative of Wall Street in the mid 80s. They really took on this third mandate, which is – so first mandate is maintain inflation. Second mandate is maintain employment. And then they really – they have this third mandate that they don't admit to.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
But it is keep the stock market afloat because everybody's retirement is tied up in it.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
So you're going to have them start to get accommodative because of this very situation. Yeah. They really cannot push it any further. Inflation has not been fully solved.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And the issue is beyond the fact that you have just absolute shenanigans like people spending $200,000 on monkey JPEGs when you have 0% interest rates. But that gives the Fed no tools to adjust if the market has an emergency. So if the Fed lowers interest rates a few basis points, the market's going to respond positively. But they still have room to lower.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
So that way, if the economic conditions are not improving, they can lower more. But once you're at zero, you cannot lower anymore. So there's no way for them to juice the market and improve things. So what they've done is they've bought themselves over the last couple of years
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
A teensy teensy tiny bit of breathing room where they can manipulate the rate a little bit and juice the market and pump things when they start to suffer like it's happening right now. And so they're probably never going to. Well, never. They're probably not going to go right to zero.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
They're probably if they go down, they're going to go down kind of slowly and they'll probably hover a little bit above where they were at in the past. And I would think that over time will start to improve things because money gets cheaper for corporations because when the interest rate goes down, their loans are cheaper.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And so they can take out loans often where the rates are actually lower than the rate of true inflation. So for a business, that's a great deal. So they'll take the rates. When they get down, they'll take the loans. They'll start hiring. They'll start investing. They'll start building again. that trickles out into the rest of the economy. But you can imagine that takes a long time.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
When the rates get tight, they can react very quickly by laying off, by suspending projects, by canceling sponsorships and advertising, pulling back on marketing, pulling back on trips, pulling back on software deals. R&D. R&D is the first to go.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
And they can do that almost immediately, right? But the spin back up To start investing again in R&D or to start investing again in sales and marketing, to start investing again in hiring, you do that at a much more slower, much more cautious pace. So even though the rate will come down, it's going to come down slowly. It's not going to go right to zero. It's going to come down slowly.
Coder Radio
585: From Ops to Dev and Back Again
So the impact will be slow and businesses will naturally be slow and hesitant to begin investing in those areas again. So that will be slow.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
This is Coder Radio, episode 592, recorded on October 22nd, 2024. Hey friend, welcome in to Jupyter Broadcasting's weekly talk show. It takes a pragmatic look at the art, the business, the software development, and the world of technology. My name is Chris, and keeping an eye... On the world, it's our host, Mr. Dominic. Hello, Mike. Hello, Chris. Yeah. I've decided you are our C++ correspondent.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Yeah, and this is nice because for a small project, you could run Solid Q on the same machine as, say, your web server, and you got everything you need right there. But they've built in the ability to scale it out so you can run it across multiple machines. You can have multiple machines working the job but still using a single database.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
So you can have a separate database that they all refer back to. That's nice. So if you can start small and if your application needs grow, it's got horizontal scaling out of the box.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Hey, we're maniacs over here. You have a whole show about it. Yeah, we just set up a colo in Toronto.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And we're setting up infrastructure because, you know, you can buy now a pretty nice rig if you can get the rack space, the power, and the connection at some colo. You know, month to month, I mean, maybe you have a little bit more up front, but you save, I think, month to month.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I wonder if Microsoft and OpenAI will still be in a partnership by then because it sounds like things are.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Man, you know, this is why you got to make sure you get all the bank account stuff figured out before you move in together, because once you move in together, it starts to get a little weird. And the Wall Street Journal today cited sources. Actually, this was like a day or two ago, cited sources that OpenAI is now being advised by a Goldman Sachs advisor and Microsoft has turned to Morgan Stanley.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
These two companies, these two ginormous banks are. are acting as like intermediary negotiators because the direct talks have essentially fallen apart. And it looks like the deal is, you know, a focus on some sort of like – it's got to be around the restructuring that's happening at OpenAI and where Microsoft's cut is and all of that and what their say is and all of that.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
So in 2020, Google did a little study and identified that 70 percent of Chrome's severe vulnerabilities were memory safety issues. We've also – we also saw another study came out that the White House cited in February. And their national cyber director. We actually talked about on the show really briefly where they kind of came out.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
You know it's got to be related, but of course we don't have anything that directly says it is. But reading through the lines here, it kind of seems like that's probably the case. This is sort of heated up as OpenAI is restructured and as people have left.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Yeah, and OpenAI is in a tough spot. They reportedly expect to lose about $5 billion on $3.7 billion in revenue this year. So they're going to supposedly make $3.7 in bill, but they're going to lose $5 billion. So they're in a tough spot. They need money. They're restructuring. They expect profit one day.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Microsoft wants like a 49% stake in what becomes of the public company or something like that is what's been reported recently. But having these two massive banks do the negotiations on behalf of the two companies that have traditionally worked directly, even originally they were working CEO to CEO, especially when Sam got fired for a weekend. It was CEO to CEO negotiations, right?
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
It was top level to top level. Yeah. But now we're like Morgan Stanley and JP Morgan are doing the conversation.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And the implication here is Microsoft was the first one to lawyer up.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Yeah, it's something I got off the back of a truck. He said his freezer failed, and he was just trying to unload it.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Well, you know, think about it as if, but just for a moment to try to like steel man this. Imagine you or I came up with a product that got the interest of Microsoft, right? This is like one of a hundred things Microsoft makes millions of dollars on, right? But this is the only thing we make money on. Like, you get what I'm saying? It's like life and death for open AI companies.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And for Microsoft, it's like, well, it's one of their investments. And so I think that is an impedance mismatch right there. Microsoft would like to have, you know, Clippy 2.0, as the Salesforce CEO likes to joke. OpenAI is trying to become a top tech company and quote-unquote revolutionize.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Remember earlier this year when the White House came out and said programmers should be using memory safe programming languages. They said, quote, experts have identified a few programming languages that both lack traits associated with memory safety and also have high proliferation across critical systems.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I agree. Yeah. It seems like some folks in the chat or in the chat, you know, some folks out there in tech, they just don't really seem to draw any drama at all. And then other folks just over and over and over again, the drama seems to follow them everywhere they go. You explain that to me.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I know you, though, talking about the product, were kind of impressed by some of the new features that they announced recently, like this Canvas feature.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Yes, they way overuse. Remember HoloLens or something? They've reused things several times recently. They've reused names. Copilot is one that now they're trying to fade away from. By the way, as of like this morning, the word is that the branding hasn't gone so well and that Microsoft's going to de-emphasize the Copilot branding.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
So maybe it's going to be used for something else now, or it's going to go back to the original meaning. I don't know.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Yes, they're going to call them agents now. So Canvas is a nice UI improvement to ChatGPT's results, where if you ask it a coding problem, it will put it out in a sort of pastebin-like style that renders it with syntax highlighting and line numbers and all of that. And it lets you review code and ask specific questions on each line of code and essentially try to debug potentially code.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
such as C and C++, and that things like Rust would be a memory-safe language to use, according to the White House and their recommendations back in February. So we've kind of been building to this pressure, I think, around C++. And then you have market competition as well coming from things like Go and Rust. So I don't know. Do you think this could become a reality?
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I'll put a link to this in the show notes so you can see it. And it is a really nice feature. I'll have to try it. I have been playing around with Claude. which has had that same thing for a bit now.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And it's really quite nice because you can go into Cloud and you can say, I need a Nix configuration file that stands up these services, put all of the various variables that I need to predefine at the top of the file for me, and this is the name of my host, this is the URL, integrate all of that. And it will spit out into this side sheet Perfectly formatted syntax. You can take that.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
You can try to build it. If it fails, you can take the error message, drop that back into Claude and say, hey, dummy, I tried to build and I got this error message. And then Claude will be, oh, you're right, my bad. Hee hee, I missed this thing that's changed. Let me update that output for you. And it refreshes, just like I think ChatGPT does, that sort of paste bin line numbered error.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
syntax highlighted code that goes along now with your chat. And it will reproduce a new one, and it's got one little click so you can copy all of the contents. It works really well. Sometimes they go off into wild kind of suggestions. If you actually were just to follow blindly, it'd be like driving your car into a lake. Apple Maps. Yeah, yeah. But for the most part, it's pretty effective. So
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I finally broke down and I subscribed to Claude. I don't know. It's $20 a month, so I may cancel it after a month. But when you're really kind of in a debug process and you're like you're so close to this thing building, you really just like – and then it's like, hey, you've been chatting way too much. This conversation has gotten real big. You got to come back at 8 p.m., brother.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
You need to take a break. Or you can upgrade to pro and keep on going. Well, they got me. Of course. I'm like, I want this working. The kids are going to be home soon. I just want this to be finished. So I paid the 20 bucks and I did get it working. So I kind of I don't know. I'm going to keep trying, see if it's actually useful for that kind of stuff.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
But then I don't know if you saw this morning, Anthropic announced that now Claude will have the ability to use your computer. and interact with elements on your screen. Have you seen this?
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
So it can remote control and click stuff, interact with desktop apps, and it will imitate mouse and keyboard input via computer use API. So I think you run a local app, which means it's probably only Mac and Windows, but you run a local app from Cloud on your machine, and then it will talk to that app, and then it will talk to the OS and click on crap for you.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And they have video demos of it out right now where you can ask Claude how to do something and then just have it take over and do it for you on the computer. What if it hallucinates and clicks the wrong thing? I mean, this feels like a wild step and also kind of a weird intermediary step, sort of strange.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Like maybe the AI should just be communicating to some API instead of like going through the humans interface that's been designed for their meat fingers. It just seems like a weird roundabout way to solve problems. but also kind of a powerful tool. I don't know. Would you try it? Would you let it take over if you were trying to, say, configure something on a WordPress backend?
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Maybe a new WordPress fork drops and you're trying to get it working. Wouldn't it be nice if you go into Cloud and say, hey, help me export from my old WordPress install to now FreePress or whatever they're going to call it?
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you had like any kind of like administrative access or confidential data on the computer.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
It's interesting how they can even do it. How from inference, you know, from essentially auto auto match.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Really sophisticated auto match. They can somehow control the computer. You know, Apple released a study that kind of confirms what we already know on the show. But Apple put their scientists to it and released a paper that shows that These LLMs do not reason. They are doing – it's more association and it's more autocomplete and they have scientific data.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And interestingly, Mike, I don't know if you saw it, but one of the things that was really kind of obvious but yet clearly shows that their reasoning is not all there is they fed LLMs word math problems. You know, like a train is coming at you at 25 miles per hour and you're going at the train at five miles per hour. Like how long until you collide? Right.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
If you just change the names of, like, Susie and Bob, you know, Susie's driving the train and Bob's on a motorcycle, and you change it to, like, Fred and Rachel, the mathematical results it'll give you from the word math problem will be different.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
So just changing the names of the people in the story produce different math results from the numbers. But that's one of many things that they sort of demonstrated, that these things are really nice high-end autocomplete.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Well, okay. So here's my steel man argument. Tell me what you think of this. The airplane flies faster and higher than the bird, but it doesn't fly at all like a bird, and early airplanes crashed an awful lot and were really rickety and seemed sort of silly.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And even though it isn't the way nature does it, you could argue an airplane can fly further, can fly faster, and can fly higher than any bird, so it's superior to a bird, even though it's not the way a bird flies.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I think we're now at a point where these tech companies have realized they don't have true AI but they have something that kind of smells like AI, kind of quacks a little bit like AI. And maybe if they just throw more horsepower at it, they can get it even closer. Remember what Zuck said.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I played a clip of Zuck saying, you know, we don't really know how much power we can throw at this thing and the results we'll get. Maybe if we throw, you know, a dozen nuclear reactors worth of data centers at it.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Right. Maybe once we get a dozen nuclear reactor-powered data centers all trying to do autocomplete real good, maybe it goes to some next level. Like, we don't know. But that's what they're going to find out. And we may end up being like, ah, this actually isn't the way to go. Probably not, but it's possible. It's just a wild thing. It's a wild world we live in. It's a wild world.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
See, this is my thinking, is C++ is going to be around historically. Just with so much legacy software, we have 30, 40 years now of software the industry has been building. I totally get why new projects that are starting at zero are choosing things like Rust at a pretty high clip or have chosen things like Go or other things. But just look at the Linux kernel.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Four score and seven boosts to go. That's why we are grateful for the support we get from the audience. And Hybrid Sarcasm is our baller booster this week with 100,000 cents. Hey, Rich Law! He's giving you a shout out for sacrificing more of your prep time again, which we appreciate. How did all that go? Because last we did a double. So that way you had time to prepare for the hurricane.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
There you go. Oh, my God, Mike. How long until somebody gets Claude to play a video game? You're right. Somebody's going to get Claude to play Mario.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Meanwhile, it's going to get down into the 30s here later this week.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
It sucks, man. It sucks. It's either really rainy, windy, or really cold. So when the clouds finally clear, then it just gets really cold. That's what keeps it above freezing here is all the rain.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Yep. All right. Adversary 17 comes in with a handsome 73,728 sets. I hoard that which all kind covet. He's great and happy and glad to hear that you survive the crazy weather out there. He says, about my last boost regarding the rust tool chain. Clippy is a rust linter. that makes your Rust code better, often suggesting patterns that are more like the Rust way of making things easier and simpler.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I found it useful as it provides links to documentation behind each lint and why you do it.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Yeah, that's true. Although it does sound very handy. Thank you for clarifying, Adversary17. Appreciate that. Rotted Mood comes in with a handsome 20,000 sats. And I don't know. I think he wants some mac and cheese on there. Should I get him? Should I give him some mac and cheese? Here you go. Put some macaroni and cheese on there, too. I think Rotted Mood wants mac and cheese.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
He has no message, though, just sending us some support. So I don't know for sure. I don't know for sure. But there you go. I hope you liked it. Retrogear comes in with 3,000 sats. B-O-O-S-T. I don't like my job and I don't think I'm going to go anymore. Well, you have our support, Retrogear. Let us know how it works. You could always become like, I don't know, like an AI tester.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Just put AI and go start an AI company. Do it for six months and put it on your resume. Now you can claim you're an AI expert.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
There you go. Problem solved. Cronrad comes in with 8,675 sats. The traders love the vol. Catching up on the shows, but a good tool for software diagramming is IcePanel.io. It follows C4 modeling, and I think it works really well. Also streaming some splits to editor drew or sometimes failed for me. Yeah.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
That's not going to get rewritten anytime soon. Maybe it will one day. Maybe one day we'll have, I don't know, version, maybe version 10. Isn't it mostly in C, though? Yeah.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Every now and then nodes go offline, but let me know if you have any persistent problems because everything should be a okay right now. Thank you. Gran rad for that boost. And the, again, the diagramming software he's talking about is ice panel. You can find it at ice panel.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Yeah, I think that's a requirement. If you get Y Combi money, you've got to have a nice – oh, this is a nice website.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Look at that thing. It floats there. That's cool. All right. That actually looks pretty legit. Real project?
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Oh, my God. Well, if you're going to get a website like that, you better have a real one behind it, I guess.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Oh, that's a good point. All you really need is a great website and then, you know, a timeline of some sort. Thank you, everybody who supports the show with a boost on your own terms. As you like it, we had 26 of you just stream your sats as you listen. 23,899 sats sent in that way. Thank you, sat streamers.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
When you combine it with everybody who sent in a message, we stacked a grand total of 229,302 sats. Not a barn burner, but not a bad one, and we appreciate the support. Thank you, everybody, who keeps us going. It is a Value for Value podcast. It's all made possible by our audience. You can boost with a new podcast app at podcastapps.com.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
We'll have some links to get started at the top of the show notes to make it real easy, or go pick your app of choice at podcastapps.com. So I want to play this for you. You may have heard this already because it's not the first time I've played it, but in case you haven't, I want you to hear this because I think it's important we get this on the Coder Radio program.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
We've talked before on the show about Notebook LM, Google's little Skunk Works project that's gone quite viral. And it's getting used by our audience out there. And one of our listeners threw in some Red Hat course material to help just kind of digest it and prepare for the exam. Seems like a pretty great idea. The results they got surprised them, and they had to send it to me.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I want to play it for you. It's less than a minute long, and then I want to hear what you think on the other end.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
But my point is you're not going to get legacy code rewritten into Go or Rust. That's not going to happen. And you're right. Maybe a new project, if you're building something new, if they can get compatibility to work, you could see somebody using safe C++ with an older C++ project and – Perhaps those two worlds can coexist, but you're not going to rewrite the whole thing.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
It's that spirit of collaboration and shared knowledge that makes the Linux world so exciting and rewarding. So to our listeners, as you continue your Linux adventure, remember to embrace the command line, explore new tools, and never stop learning. Who knows what incredible things you'll achieve with the power of Linux at your fingertips.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Now, I don't know about you, Mike, but I think that sounds a bit like me. Just a touch. That was the clip from Notebook LM. That was not me speaking. Yeah. And of course, it's also weird because it's a topic I would talk about. Here, I'll play just a second of it. A spirit of collaboration and shared knowledge that makes the Linux world so exciting and rewarding.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
So Notebook LM just kind of like accidentally cut this in. You know, I don't think they meant to do this. I think this is like they were drawing from JB content to help, you know, inform their podcast because it would kind of make sense. They're making a podcast, so they probably skew towards preferring other podcast content about this topic.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
But, A, it means they're lifting what I say and they're building a product on top of this without even talking to me. And, B, it means that, like, my voice is out there in a domain that I actively am actually working in, Linux.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
My voice is out there talking about Linux, talking about it in a way that is a little cheesy and campy that I wouldn't really prefer to be associated with by a company that I'm not super comfortable with, which is Google. And the whole thing's really bizarre, and I'm still processing it.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And we've tried several times to get it to reproduce by throwing Red Hat material at it and other Linux material at it and have not gotten it to reproduce my voice since. That's, yeah, that's going to be a problem. Maybe I should join ScarJo, you know?
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
So a couple of days ago, Google announced that now you can tweak what the hosts talk about and you can kind of customize.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Yeah, if you could actually get the... It seems like you cannot provoke it to use a voice, but it clearly has the capability of emulating... That's the other thing I think this reveals, this clip, is that this Notebook LM doesn't just do their voices, the two hosts. It can do... Other people's voices as well.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Yeah, it must be. Yeah. And because this was a – they were making a Linux podcast, right? So it's not surprising that they would kind of – because even if you just sucked in YouTube, we publish our stuff to YouTube, which is a Google property.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Yeah, so there's a lot of ways they could get my voice, but it's a little weird. It would be nice if I just got an email like, hey, by the way, you just emailed the email address in the RSS feed. That's all I'm asking. You know, you could do that.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And there is nothing you can do about it. So, yeah. Well, now I'm like, okay, if that's the case, then give me the ability to log into my Google account, verify who I am. I'm a Google Apps customer. And let me generate my own stuff. You know? I'll just have a soundboard of me, dude, just saying stuff. It'd be great. Say it once, let the AI do it, and I don't even have to show up some days.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Anyways, I just wanted to get that on the show because after all this we've been talking about it, how ironic that it happened to me, little old Linux podcaster me. Yeah, I don't know. Here we are. We're in the future where there's just nothing you can really do about it. Welcome to making content for the internet, I suppose.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Speaking of which, is there anywhere you'd like to send the good folks before we get out of here?
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Alice.dev is the place to go. You can find me if you want to screw around with the Nostra thing. It's kind of cool. It's a fun technology, chrislas.com. And I'm also chrislas on the Weapon X, if you still do that. Otherwise, I'm not big on the social media.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I do lurk in the Matrix chat from time to time, which you can also find linked on our website, and we always would love to have you join us over there. In fact, links to what we talked about today are at coder.show.com. Yeah, we're in sneezing territory of episode 600, if you can believe it.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Thank you to our members for supporting us for over a year now, for keeping us going, and a shout-out to everybody who boosts in on your terms as you like. We really appreciate that. And, of course, we'd love to have you join us live. We do the show on Tuesdays, typically, at noon Pacific, 3 p.m. Eastern. jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar for that schedule.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Or if you've got a podcasting to-do app, you don't got to worry. We'll list it in there for you ahead of time so you know when the show's coming up, and then you can just tap and listen live. Hey, thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode. See you right back here next week.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Sure. I'd love to hear from the dark matter devs out there because I feel like something like Rust or Go, you might try that with an entirely new project, something kind of small, something that doesn't have an immediate timeline. But There's no way you're going to be able to convince any of the management types.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
What a mixed honor. You know, like, if we were to bring you on to another show, we would be like, host of Coderator Program and Jupiter Broadcasting's C++ correspondent joins us tonight to break down C++'s continued Borg-like mission. Mr. Dominic, what are you learning...
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Any of the project planning types that you should rewrite that enterprise app that Mike mentioned from 2004. Even though you're dragging it up a hill like a bag of rocks and it's like probably a major pain in your butt to keep running on modern systems. There's probably no way you're going to convince them they should rewrite that. And you probably know it's riddled with insecurity. Yeah.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
See, I would think so, right? Do you think that's like one of the dominoes that has to fall?
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
You know, I got to ask, Wes brought this up in the live chat, and I want to put this out there to the audience. You can go to that show slash contact or boost in. Has anyone out there ever worked at a place where they've done an actual rewrite and actually tackled tech debt at the institution? Has anyone worked there?
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I would think maybe, maybe a gaming company of all of them might just because, you know, you have to to achieve the performance levels you're looking for or something. But I got to know.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I wonder if anyone within the reach of our voice has ever worked at a place that has actually invested thousands of dollars to improve their existing infrastructure and rewrite some core application they created a decade ago.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Oh, God, could you imagine? Yeah. Because maybe that's what happened, man, is, you know, like 20 years ago, it was it was people were replacing and legacy stuff. And then those those migrations. You know what? There's actually kind of I started joking. It's actually kind of ring true. The migrations went badly. People got burned. And so management became very resistant to it.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
It's already hard to spend the money, but those early migrations and stuff, we didn't build stuff for portability. We didn't really know what we were doing. We didn't have the systems as well designed as they were, so they weren't necessarily easy to swap over. We didn't have it down back in the day, and so migrations sucked.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And a lot of the software that is out there now is written from that era, even though we've learned so much more now. I'd be fascinated to know if anybody's actually ever gotten their company to do it.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I don't think it's ever happened. Yeah. All right. Well, there you go. Save C++.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
One day. At least if the C++ Alliance has anything to say about it. Coder.show slash membership. That's how you can support the show and keep us going directly right there on autopilot. The show's had no sponsor for over a year. I'm amazed it's worked out, but it's thanks to the support of our audience. You want to keep us going? You can do it automatically at Coder.show slash membership.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
We'll give you a version of the show that doesn't have these spots anymore. And when you deserve it, when you've been a good listener, you get a Coderly as well, which is like a whole other Coder radio. Well, kind of. But, you know, you got to earn it. You could also just support all the shows annually and not worry about a month to month thing with the link I'll have in the show notes.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I don't have a fancy URL for you, but I will have a link in the show notes. You could also do it on your own terms with your own amount, the frequency you prefer, the duration you prefer, how you prefer with a boost. If you send us a boost of 2,000 sats or more, we'll read it on the show.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And it's a great way to support us because it goes directly to me, Editor Drew, the network, and the general fund, which also supports Mike. And you do that just with a boost with no middleman, no company in between us, nobody we have to go request the funds or can hold things or takes a percentage. And you do it from a new podcast app.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
So you need an app like Fountain or Castomatic or so many of the great ones that are listed at podcastapps.com. then you can boost the show and support it that way too. However you do it, we're grateful. It's crazy we've made it this far, and it's really only because people have stepped up. But we still need that support, and we want to keep going for you.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Maybe it always should have been this way. You know, a show like Coder does get a little spicy sometimes. Maybe it should have always been this way. Friends, let old Chris tell you a story for a moment. Stay a while and listen. Even if you're not a listener, you're probably familiar with This American Life. They're one of the major podcasts out there.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And as Pod News covered, even this American life has realized the podcasting ad market has collapsed.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
Do you think, so the safe C++ extension proposal, which was last month, like late last month, which is an evolution in C++, a proposal for safe C++ extensions to enhance memory safety and, you know, basically respond to the great threat that is Rust. Exactly, right.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
So they're launching direct support programs. They even joke that it should be called This American Life Support or This American Lifeboat. I think they went with something a little more mundane for the actual name. But it's not just now the niche podcasts. It's across the entire podcast industry.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And I just hate to see something like that wipe us out because podcasting is such a unique medium with such a range from This American Life with a staff of like 36 people Dakota Radio with like myself, Mike and editor Drew making it happen. It's like just totally different scale. And yet podcasting can be great in all aspects. And it's truly, truly open and distributed.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And so with your support directly, we'll keep on going. So either if you boost or if you become a member, we just really appreciate that you help us. And we've been we've been able to do this for like more than a year. I should get the actual days because it's I'm Pretty proud of it. Thank you, everybody who supports us and keeps us going. I've been following DHH's adventures.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
On YouTube, on Twitter. I mean, he's all over the place. And Ruby on Rails has been getting a lot of attention as a result. RailsConf, I think, just happened as well.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
And we got Rails 8.1. So, I don't know. Where do you want to start?
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I am actually really glad you took this side because I've been seeing that too. And I'm like, what the hell is going on here? I mean, okay, anyways. Yeah.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
I like weird. So we'll keep an eye on the chat room, see if anybody... So again, he's still on Linux.
Coder Radio
592: C++ Safety Dance
So the work's being done via the C++ Alliance. Its president and executive director, Vinny Flacco, said that it was, quote, a revolutionary proposal that adds memory safety features to the C++ programming language. You know, this kind of – the article that we'll have linked to the show notes kind of puts it in context. And it is worth mentioning, right?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
This is GoToRadio, episode 588, recorded on September 17th, 2024. Hey friend, welcome in to Jupyter Broadcasting's weekly talk show, taking a pragmatic look at the art and the business of software development and the whole world of technology. My name is Chris, and joining us, ready to go, probably fully caffeinated, I don't know, it's our host, Mr. Dominic. Hello, Mike. Misa, bye.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Well, Larry, you know, he continued. By the way, he's 80 years old. And in this finance call, he said every police officer is also going to get monitored by AI. So there's, you know, a little bit of a rough shot. And then he added… You're going to have AI drones replace police in high-speed pursuits. You'll just take a car to get followed by the drone system.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
How do you know if someone's telling you the truth? I mean, really, especially when it comes to content creators. I don't know about you, but recently I've become very aware of nearly all the information that we receive has either been spun in some gross way, curated, reduced down with certain facts omitted or other facts amplified for some agenda of which I'm usually completely unaware.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And it seems like especially during an election year here in the States, it's only getting worse everywhere. So realistically, how does one solve for that? I don't think it can be done with a central management plan. I think it's at the individual level. I think you have to be more active in selecting your information diet. And I think all of us have to do a little bit more work.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
We have to figure out the incentives of the people creating the content. In the mainstream media, it's the corporations that run all of it. In the independent content creator, it's who funds them. And for over a year, the Coder Program has been funded by our listeners, which makes us ferociously loyal to our listeners.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
The Coder Program tells you like it is in the world of technology, software development, small business, and all the things that get touched by that stuff. If you zoom out a bit, too... Protecting the environment that makes this possible, podcasting, is what the open podcasting 2.0 standards are about. It's what things like the boosts and memberships to podcasts directly are about.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
It's about taking out the middleman. It's about realigning the incentives to something that you can trust based on the way it is because of how it is. It's fundamental to how the content is created. And I just can't express to you how important I think it is that we save and preserve this environment for podcasting.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And so your support directly either through Autopilot with our QA membership program or by sending a boost on your terms with the amount you like, it means a lot. It's not just one show, but we're really trying to change something for all of podcasting to preserve this medium so it can be this trustworthy medium like no other medium can be. It's a big goal.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
But we're getting there, and this show is proving it can be done. This show has transitioned to fully audience-funded, and that's really remarkable. So thank you for your support. If you're a member or if you've boosted before, we really appreciate it.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And if you haven't done it yet, consider either by going to coda.show slash membership or go get something like Fountain, which just keeps getting so good, Fountain.fm, or Cast-O-Matic, which is like the Cadillac. podcasting 2.0 app for iOS, and Podverse, which is working on an incredible rebuild, cross-platform and open source.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And there's so many other great apps, like True Fans and more, at podcastapps.com. Try one out or become a member and participate in actively selecting the media that you can trust versus the stuff that has incentives you don't even fully understand.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
So I'm not sure what to make of this AI regulation bill that's just passed the California House and Senate and now it is sitting on Gavin Newsom, the governor's desk. He needs to sign it by the end of September. And there is a lot I want to cover in this because it does have some good in it, especially around whistleblower stuff and employees being able to speak out.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
But there's also just this complete whitewashing of all of the threats it seems to pertail for open source development. And the pro side is essentially lying about what the bill does to make their case. And Where better to get your tech advice than from an actor who played the Hulk?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Now, of course, his motivations are probably based around Hollywood's incentives to avoid AI replacing them. You know, it's funny, too, to hear somebody who's probably worth a couple million complain about the billionaires. There's also some irony there. Now, to zoom out a little bit,
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
At a high level, this regulation applies to huge models, massive models, which at present day prices would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to be able to manage and create. So we're talking initially about something that applies to massive scale operations. But, you know, you go ahead about 20 years or so and that's going to be, you know, fifteen thousand dollars.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
So, of course, today it might take a ton of money, but to get to that compute in the future, it might, you know, it could be a lot less. And those numbers can always be changed. Things will be much cheaper in the future. There's also going to be new architectures and advances in chips that are going to result in the kind of compute power that they're trying to target at cheaper prices.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
So I'm not a big fan of where they set the bar. But the claim that the regulation just makes it so they have to test is so far from the truth. So it's SB 1047 and Reason.com, which we'll link, does a rundown of how this impacts open source development.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And they write that it would disincentivize developers from open sourcing their models by mandating complex safety protocols and holding developers liable for harmful modifications and misuse by bad actors. Could you imagine if open source developers were held liable, first of all?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
The bill offers no concrete guidance on the types of features or guardrails that developers could build in to avoid liability at all. And it defines open source AI tools as, quote, artificial intelligence models that are made freely available. And the other thing that's incredible is the developers are held responsible for any derivatives of their model.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And that includes if somebody just straight up copies their model, doesn't make any changes and uses it for something bad like misinformation or domestic terrorism of some kind. So any derivative, any copies, any or anything like if they just took their model as it was. and integrated into a piece of software that was bad, the developer of that LLM would be held liable.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
It would require open source developers to implement, quote, reasonable safeguards to prevent, quote, creation or use of chemical, biological, radiological, or nuclear weapons, or, quote, mass casualties of at least $500 million of damage resulting from cyber attacks. I mean, how you even measure 500 million damage from cyber attacks or any, quote, harms to public safety and security.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
So essentially, it requires developers to build in censorship to their LLMs because you could harms public safety. It's pretty, pretty big area. That's pretty wide margin. The bill also mandates that open source developers take steps to prevent, quote, critical harms to just vague critical harms. They have to avoid they have to take steps to prevent critical harms.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
which seems like that's designed to be interpreted very broadly. Also, it imposes extensive reporting and auditing requirements on open source developers. Developers would have to identify, quote, specific tests and results that they're using to prevent critical harm and report that to the state.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
The bill would also require open source developers to submit an annual certification under penalty of perjury of compliance and self-report, quote, each artificial intelligence safety incident within 72 hours. My God, could you imagine? Put something out on the Internet, and if somebody looks something up and hurts themselves, and you hear about it, you have to report it within 72 hours.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Oh, man. This is really awful. As a dad, this is just really hard to hear.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And starting in 2028, developers of open source models would need to, quote, annually retain a third-party auditor to confirm compliance. Could you imagine an open source project having to retain an auditor?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Yeah, you're right. There is a business opportunity. Oh, yeah. And my last bit, developers would have to re-evaluate the, quote, procedures, policies, protections, capabilities, and safeguards implemented on an annual basis. That's bad. Not if you're a big company. That's fantastic. Right. These are just open source regulations. I just focused on the open source stuff.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
For sure. I think, and I hate to be cynical about this, but I've just watched all this play out, Mike. To me, it feels like it's truly about information control. They don't want anything that's open source and not under control of one of the big five to get traction.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
These are not insurmountable odds, but you're not going to have two founders that are visionary and passionate be able to make this happen. They're going to have to get funding. They're going to have to kind of become big tech. And then if they have anything that's good, they'll just get acquired.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Mac will hire the employees like we've seen or buy the whole company.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Yeah. And so the people that are in favor and the people that are against it is interesting. So a lot of OpenAI staffers, well, like 120 of them, former and current staffers,
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
are in favor of this and i think they're in favor of this because like i mentioned at the top it does have some pretty strong ai whistleblower protections which we've seen a clear need for open ai managed to right at the beginning that up for everybody and make this something that has to be baked into everything thanks sam and so they like that but
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Anybody who really is kind of looking at a larger, higher level picture, I think, doesn't support it. And I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I agree with Nancy Pelosi and other California members of Congress. We should reject this bill just because of the way it impacts open source.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And additionally, I just don't want to see a situation where we have every individual state implement their own bespoke AI regulation to whatever nutter group that runs that state. That's going to be awful. And then if you do it in California, of course, it's going to be pretty impactful to the tech sector. And the ones that have money will just go somewhere else and develop it somewhere else.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Well, you know, yeah, I think exactly. It would slow down OpenAI. It would give him time to develop Grok and XAI.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Yeah, probably. You're right. Yeah, you're right. I hate to see this effort to – because it really – why all of these things? Here's my argument. Like why – Why burden the open source developers with all these requirements and all of these loopholes and all of this stuff?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Because do you really think that if something bad happened, like a national security incident happened because of an LLM, that we don't already have national security laws on the books that enable the government to do whatever is needed to stop that threat? Of course we have that. I mean, just during COVID, we saw the presidents, both of them,
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Constrict different corporations to build things under some law from World War Two.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Something like that. And my point is, is like if some open source. Thank you. Yes. There it is. If some open source LLM came along and it was spewing such dangerous information that the security of the state was at risk. I got to believe there's most likely laws on the books right now that they can address that threat with. So why burden open source with all of this?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Well, and you know, it's also another thing that's pointed to as COVID, you know, all the misinformation during COVID. But then when you kind of look back in totality, a lot of the misinformation came from the federal government. I'm not saying it was intentional, but I was like, it depends on which month you're looking at. What was the misinformation? Right. Exactly. Exactly.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
It is interesting that misinformation is sort of accepted as such a significant threat.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Sure. Well, I mean, you want to know the original threat to democracy? Believing that JFK was assassinated and the federal government was involved. That sounds like you're some sort of insurrectionist to me. What a threat to democracy to believe that your own federal government murdered a sitting president.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
So you could see how in modern day you could spin something like that, which was a common belief and a common thing that happened for a long time. And people still believe that. You could cherry pick any one particular issue and really spin it up as a massive threat to society.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Yeah, I don't think it's working as well as it did but then I go over to Mastodon and I see everybody panicking and I realize that's still pretty effective.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Hey, man, we're saving democracy. So let's talk about OpenAI's CEO, Mr. Altman. He has, quote-unquote, left – Champion mode all the time. He's left the safety committee, which that was created back in May. When that happened, we came on the show and we're like – How does the CEO sit on the safety board that's also supposed to be a check to the practices of the company he's a CEO of?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
How does that work? So now it's going to be chaired by Zico Kultler, the director of machine learning at Carnegie Mellon. And then we have a bunch of other members like Quora CEOs on there, retired U.S. Army generals on there. You'll love to know this. Former NSA chief Paul Natsak is on there. Natsak, I think, is his last name. NAK SAC, and a former Sony general counsel.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
A former Sony lawyer is also on the board. So there you go. That's the safety board.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Who's the academic? Oh, right. Carnegie Mellon. So the director. Okay. But you've got retired general, former NSA chief, and a Sony lawyer also on the board. Oh, okay. You know what's funny? Do you think any of them is under the age of 40? I would eat my hat if one of them was. Do you think any of them has ever spun up an open source LLM on their own local workstation? I mean, it's possible.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Maybe the NSA chief has. Maybe. Wouldn't it be something if the people that made these decisions understood the tooling? No, you can't have that. Actually used it? You cannot have that. Yeah. So just as a recap, just as a recap, in the last week, since Coder got together, they have some kind of reasoning model they're talking about. It's, you know, using reasoning.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
They're trying to raise a round of funding at $150 billion valuation. They think they're worth $150 billion. They're considering restructuring once again and getting rid of the nonprofit altogether. And now their just announced safety committee has been reformulated once again. And it will have the power to delay models. Will it? So that's where we're at right now. Will it? That's what they say.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
That's what they say. You know, it's I don't know. I think they should. If I were them, I would delay the next one. It's it'd be brilliant, Mike, because it's not ready. It's not going to be that good. So delay it and give them time to make it better. And what is the message when the safety committee says this is too dangerous? A.K.A. It's good. It does stuff.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
I would 100% think that's what they're doing. I really do. I think they pretend all this safety stuff, not only is it to get their moat, but it also serves as reverse psychology marketing to tell you what we're working on is so advanced that we have to be humble about it, that we have to be careful about it, and we have to take safety so seriously.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Yes. Of course. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I think that's what's going on.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
That's just the way it is. Microsoft has sat down. They met with their very important security vendors. You know, it's a big club. And you're not in it, including CrowdStrike. We talked about this recently. And they've come away with some decisions about how they're going to improve security and prevent failures on Windows.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
So really, access to the Windows kernel has been a hot topic since the whole CrowdStrike thing took out 8.5 million. Oh, it's interesting. The number's down now. 8.5 million Windows PCs. So Microsoft released a blog post and they talked about how the little powwow went. And, well, this is their language. They, quote, looked at longer-term steps.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And those longer-term steps include developing new security capabilities that let stuff run outside the kernel but still get kernel-like access. They say, quote, both our customers and our ecosystem partners have called on Microsoft to provide additional security capabilities outside the kernel mode, which, along with SDP, can be used to create highly available security solutions.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
So in other words, if I were to interpret this, I think they're going to create kind of like Linux's eBPF solution where there's like a little micro VM that very basic simple code can get executed inside the kernel. And if it crashes, just the VM goes out, not the whole kernel.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
You know, so The Verge writes, while Microsoft isn't directly saying it's going to close off access to the Windows kernel, it's clearly at the early stages of designing a security platform that can eventually move CrowdStrike and others out of the kernel. You know, so what it means is for current Windows users... You get nothing. Nothing's better. Nothing changes after this.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
They've came together. They had their powwow. And literally nothing is going to be improved for current Windows users. For future Windows users, Microsoft's going to have, you know, some kind of little micro VM or something. It's just a guess of mine. They're not actually doing anything to address the fact that Windows boot is extremely brittle.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And all they're doing is super engineering for one particular failure scenario. not taking care of the bigger problem.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
So the next failure, it might not be this particular issue, but the next failure will just take Windows out during the boot process, just like the CrowdStrike problem did, and you're all going to have to go out there and touch each individual machine because they've solved nothing about that actual problem. There's no improvement in how Windows could maybe...
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
You know, boot from a previous shadow copy, detect that it's blue screen two or three times in a row, disable stuff and go into safe mode. Nothing like that.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Oh, the podcasting 2.0 consultant is our baller booster this week. Alex Gates comes in with 50,000 sats. So he writes, and I heard this from a couple other people, Pixel Buds Pro have conversation detection, and it's fantastic. I use them every day with Giraffine OS. I have Pixel Buds Pro. I think there's only Pixel Buds Pro.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
I have the first ones, and they do noise canceling, but I have never had them detect a conversation and unsilence. And I went into the Pixel Buds Pro app, and I see no setting for that, and yet multiple people have told me this is a feature of the product of which I already own, and yet I cannot make it work. I am considering... I really... I don't know.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
You know, this happens every time I, I had this moment today that it really, I'm still kind of, I'm still sort of processing. And I looked at, I looked at my photo library and I realized since I've switched to Android, I kind of stopped taking pictures. And, you know, that really hits when I look at, like, all these pictures of my kids and all these pictures I've taken with the iPhone.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And then I get to the Pixel and it's like every three or four weeks there's a picture or two in there where there used to be one, like, from almost every day. And I then remembered that's the same exact thing that happened last time I switched to Android because the goddamn camera app is so laggy. It just compared to the iPhone.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
It feels like the iPhone is a hardware camera and the pixel feels like a crappy third party software app that isn't even using like, you know, hardware accelerated features. And it's slow. Editing photos is slow and the phone gets hot. And then, you know, I've implemented my own backup solution. So then like every photo takes up disk space.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Moving on, though. He says, I use Podman every day inside WSL2, and it works great. I heard that from a couple other folks, Mike. I know you were having some strugs, though, with WSL as the week went on.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Yeah, we've had some incidences in my kid's social group where – Somebody makes a stupid comment in like a group chat, and one of the kids in that group chat reports it to a parent. The parent reports it to the school, and then the next thing you know, it's a whole incident, and that kid didn't expect that.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
That's a great quote right there. All right. So he also goes to ask if we have ever heard about DuckDB or Splink. He says, I use them in large government record linkage projects. DuckDB is amazing. I don't know about you, Mike. I've heard of DuckDB only from the audience and I've heard very good things. It's an open source column oriented relational database. Relational. But I've never used it.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Never had any need for it. But it feels like one that maybe you should have in the quiver of open source projects that you may call upon one day. You never know.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Yeah, that is a good one. That is a good one. Thank you, Alex. It is nice to hear from you, and thank you for being our baller. Tomato comes in with 20,425 sats. I'm catching up on some podcasts I missed over the summer. I just want to send some value your way. Oh, thank you. That was a... Yes.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Spaceballs boost. Traveling with electronics. I'm able to get away with it a lot, actually, including bringing a breadboard project and SDR radio gear with me. My secret is keeping my business card on me and identifying myself as an electronics engineer. Ah. So you probably also have to say it with some confidence. Oh, yeah. Here's my business card. I'm an electronics engineer.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Am I the first one to boost in for small talk as the show's official language? Small talk. He says talk small and carry a big class library.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Well, it's going to take a little bit more of a boost than that to get Smalltalk the official language.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
It's true. It's a big industry. But, you know, Smalltalk would be pretty special. That'd be fun if we could wear that badge.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
He just thought he was – he was saying the forbidden thing, which is so funny when you're a kid.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Cultivator comes in with 2,000 sats. Florida trip. This ought to cover the tax on a cup of coffee. But maybe Bitcoin will rip one day. Fingers crossed. You know, I'd love to get out there. I want to go to Jupiter, Florida. Right. I mean, that's the namesake. I want to do a show in Jupiter, Florida. That's probably that's probably pretty far from you, isn't it?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
It's long. Yeah. So long. God. And I hate that about California. You know, so you've got like that same thing going on. It takes forever.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
I just thought maybe once you took out all the driving around water, it's not that big. The actual usable land.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Ah. The immunologist comes in with a Jar Jar Boost, 5,000 sats. You're so boost. This is a plus one for R. I'm still using my iPhone 8 in 2024. I get battery changes every two to three years. iPhone 8?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
But you're not getting OS updates, right? So, like, how are you even installing apps anymore? Because, you know, they're super brutal about that. He says, maybe because I don't work in tech and I don't do a lot of photos, but this iPhone has everything I need. USB-C would be great, though, but not worth the tradeoff of a phone not fitting comfortably into my pocket. Yes. There is that. I know.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
I look at the new phones and I'm like, they're just too damn big. Damn it. Give me something the size of the SE. I'll trade battery and put everything else in there. That's all I'm asking for. He says also he really enjoyed the R song. Bud comes in with a Jar Jar Boost as well. 5,000 sats. Use a boost. I've been using my Pixel Buds Pro since they came out.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
They've had conversation detection for a bit. It lets you tap on the Bud once to cancel it if it's triggered by accident. I don't know. I can turn it on and I can turn it off, but I have never had it automatically detect a conversation and turn itself off. It's the most frustrating thing. I would very much appreciate that feature. And then one last boost to round us all out.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Jen from Matik comes in with 2,000 cents. About the subject on a phone listening to your conversations, I can share a really good breakthrough of how it really works once and for all so people stop believing misinformation. It's a French YouTuber. I can put some subtitles in there for English so you can enjoy it. All our phones are listening devices. Spoiler alert.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
No, it's correlation through metadata and more. And he links us to a YouTube video, which I'll put in the show.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Yeah. It's actually the fact that they can figure you out without having to listen to you, which I think is creepier. It'd be actually better if they were just listening to you, transmitting that up to some server and then, you know. Yeah, just like hard searching on the words you said. I guess deriving text and intent. Right. Yeah.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
That would be more like direct and gross where this instead is just a network of monitoring you where they've actually figured you out over the years.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Yeah. So. You know, I have gotten that sense myself. First of all, I think I see a certain set of suggestions on the TV versus what I see on the desktop. Yeah, it's the television in the home office. And then I've had really bad insomnia like this entire year. Tell me about it.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
I have been watching a lot of long form kind of relaxing content at night, you know, and after it gets to be about midnight or so, when I open up the YouTube app, all of my suggestions shift and it's stuff that's multi hours long. And it's, it's like a couple of themes. And one of them is like old art bell shows, because honestly, I just like listening to a professional.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And then the other one is long, boring, boring, Pandantic analysis about Star Trek things for like four hours. And I just started surfacing all of those late in the night. And then during the day, I don't see those ever suggested at all. I feel like we're going to need some links on the ladder there. Yeah.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Well, just search for Star Trek stuff late at night for about six months in a row, and there you go. Problem solved. All right, that wraps up the boosts. Thank you, everybody. We had 18 folks that streamed those sats through the streamers. We stacked 24,586 sats altogether, and we had nine boosters who... Through them, plus the streamers, brought us a total of 110,221 sets.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Not a banger episode for us. But we appreciate the messages and the support. Thank you, everybody. If you'd like to boost the show, go get a new podcast app at newpodcastapps.com or really take the plunge and go get Fountain FM and let it spin up a Nostra identity for you as well so you can just start playing in that entire ecosystem when you want and you can take that identity anywhere with you.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Now, serious question. Does this set the context for some of the comments from Larry Ellison last week about his omnipresent AI cameras that will ensure good behavior?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Shout out to all our boosters. We appreciate you. Boost! Okay, so as we wrap up, Early analysis is not looking so good for the iPhone 16, and I want to get your thoughts. Because I think it's actually a pretty good device. The iPhone 16, the base model, I think is one of the best base models they've had yet. The Pro and the Pro Max look really nice with a lot of RAM, really nice battery.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And the first weekend pre-orders seem to really have sucked. Down year over year by 37 million units, like one of their worst years ever potentially. What do you think this is? OK, disclaimer, it could be that Apple just ordered a ton up front and so there's just a ton of inventory. Nope. But it's also more likely that the pre-orders are down because this is all coming from supply chain analysis.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
So I think a lot of the new is the Apple intelligence stuff and that hasn't shipped. You know, if you get an iPhone 16 right now, there's no Apple intelligence on there. So why not wait till the Apple intelligence OS update ships and there's, you know, iOS 18.5 or not one or whatever it's going to be. Probably not one is baked into the image on the phone and just buy that one.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And you don't have to preorder. You can just get it. So I'm not too surprised. I think if you look at the probably whole year release cycle, I bet you this is going to be a pretty good seller. But people are feeling tight right now. You know, I saw a comment on 9to5Mac, I think. And it was, I'm still using the iPhone 12 mini. I'd sure enjoy a new iPhone, pro or not, but it's just so much money.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And since I'm 41 and I don't really care much about unique emojis and I'm not really generating any imagery without making it myself, and I'm plenty capable of writing and editing my own personal or business emails myself, I'd rather just have other things that the $1,300 gets me When my iPhone still does what I need it to do.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
I guess. Yeah, it's like everything besides a phone that's working for you, right?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Now, Jar Jar, can you put Mike on, because I've got a question for him. Okay, but Mike's a little sad. Oh, what happened?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Well, here's my question to the audience. First of all, what does it take for you to get a new phone? Is it just simply your current phone gives out, can't replace the battery, you break it? Because here's my theory. iPhone 17 release window, which I don't even think they're going to call it the iPhone 17. But I think next year, because of this problem...
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
They're going to introduce the foldable iPhone. You know they've been working on one. They might not call it an iPhone 17. They might just start the foldable generation off with its own number series. But you're going to see the iPhone foldable announced.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And I'm going to go out on a limb and say, you know, they've been working on it for five years and it's probably going to be the best foldable device out there. Would you get one of those?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
So tell me what you think, audience. And if you've had a foldable, I'd also like to hear from you because maybe you've got experience that would tell us otherwise. But I think that would juice sales. The problem is it's going to be like $1,500. I was going to say, is that two grand? And what is it going to do? Run iPad apps?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Anybody that has any insights on a foldable iPhone and how it would work, boost it and tell us that as well. Because there are no iPad apps. Oh! All right, Mr. Dominic, is there anywhere you want to send the good people throughout the week?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Oh, yeah, thanks. LinuxUnplugged.com. You can find some Wes Payne over there, too. Go get some Wes Payne. If you create yourself a Nostra identity and you're looking for somebody to follow, you can follow me over at chrislast.com. I am on the Weapon X as well. Mostly don't tweet much, but I do respond to replies. And I post about live shows.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Chris LAS over on Weapon X. And there's also the Coder Radio Show, I suppose, at Coder Radio Show. The way to really do it is join our chat room. That's where it's at, coder.show slash matrix. There's people going in there right now during the live show. They're banging, suggesting, helping us title it. And we do this here show live.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
You can find the live time and date at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar. I think we're going to need to, no, I'll be doing it next Tuesday. It'll be regular. I figured it all out. So we'll be live at our regular time, noon Pacific, 3 p.m. Eastern, Tuesdays, jblive.tv. All right, that's it. Links to everything we talked about at coder.show slash 5888. Thanks for joining us.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
It generally was – it didn't even really get to punches or anything. It was like one or two punches. Yeah, most was like a shove.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Yeah, there's probably not going to be a lot of sympathy there. There's going to be no mercy. So – and I think the problem, which the show is not really probably going to be able to get to, but the core of it is like so many other problems in society –
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Multifaceted extremely massively huge you know it you mentioned social media it obviously does play a factor when when social media first came along you had people that would behave one way on social media and then they would behave absolutely in real life in fact you'd even say like you'd never have that argument in real life these days people behave in real life like they behave in social media the two have blurred the lines for some folks.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
So if they get radicalized in social media, they're radical in real life. Also, I think you have a very litigious society. So the schools, the whole structures around it are everybody's trying to avoid lawsuits. And I think that adds to a lot of this hyper, hyper response. And then obviously, I could list 10 other things, but somewhere in that list,
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
The typical family structure has been pretty weakened and, you know, typical being whatever your definition of that is. But even the very best parent or set of parents, even the ones that are trying to be the most attentive, are extremely, extremely busy.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
It's an interesting and I wonder if not a knock on effect, a bit of inflation and the state of the economy for the middle class for the last couple of years. Since COVID, people are so, so busy. I've seen it reflected in... I just don't really see my family at all anymore. Most of our family events have kind of fallen apart, and nobody has the energy, the will, or the time to reorganize.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And even if one person in the family did, nobody else in the family has the time, energy, or will to participate. And it's just sort of been this massive tax because everyone is so busy. So we've had this huge time tax, probably because... You know, we work for money and that money does less.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
So when we work, we store our time and energy in the money and then we buy goods and services with that money without having to do those goods and services directly. But now those goods and services we're getting less and less for. So we have to work harder and do more. That's part of it for sure. But, you know, there's just a lot going on in society. Lots being thrown at us in modern days.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And I think all of this is such a huge, massive, unsolvable problem. It's a train that only goes in one direction. That you see people get hyperbolic and you see opportunities for salesmen like Larry Ellison from Oracle coming and say, let me sell you an AI surveillance system.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
On Thursday, during a Q&A in their quarterly call, he said, quote, citizens will be on their best behavior because we are constantly recording and reporting everything that's going on. That's ridiculous.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Well, I know. Talk about taking advantage of the worst of society.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
You're right. It is that same logic. It's the opposite side of that same logic. That's a great insight. Right.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And here's where I think – he also, by the way, he continued to say, quote, we're going to have supervision. Maybe not immediately. You don't have these cameras on every corner like we're London.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
But to your point at the start of the show, couldn't you see a compelling argument for classes and schools where you could observe student behavior and try to pre-crime out somebody who's – I'm not saying this actually would work, but I'm saying that's how they would sell it. Try to pre-crime out a kid who's maybe doing something that looks a little destructive and dangerous.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
And maybe on top of this, you're monitoring messages. Maybe parents, you're encouraged to install an app on their phone so that way you can scan their photos and messages for you and participate in the system and feed the network. Make your kids safe. Think of the children.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Yeah, but now you can do it with a nice little AI summary report on each student. And then, you know, what if if the student participates in the program via the parents permission? What if on the report cards you got like a little summary as the parent? You get like a little, you know, like you get a credit score on your credit bill, your credit card bill.
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
What if you got like a student behavior score as determined?
Coder Radio
588: Hulk Smash “PUNY DEVS”
Well, no. They would AI-ify the report and they would have like these categories where the AI observed. We recommend you work with your student in this area. And the whole thing would be bogus, but it would just be more stuff that the school can claim they're providing. The value, quote-unquote. I mean, the more I think about it, it's just what a boondoggle.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
This is Coder Radio, episode 591, recorded on October 8th, 2024. Hey friend, welcome in to Jupyter Broadcasting's weekly talk show. Taking a pragmatic look at the art and the business of software development and the world of technology. My name is Chris, and joining us over there from Florida, it's our host, Mr. Dominic. Hello, Mike. Hello. Hey, handsome.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
These systems are old, decrepit, and probably very easy to exploit. And if you know what systems to take advantage of, you can probably get in there pretty easily. Probably people in our audience can do it. The reality is these are not particularly well defended systems to begin with. And they rot. There is just this sort of rot that happens with these things as tech moves on.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
And we don't have any kind of proof that we have any kind of skill to maintain it. And we don't. I just you'd have to show me and demonstrate we can do that before we start backdooring everything.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Yeah, I've noticed that just from the IT side of things, working as they would bring connectivity to a building or something. It's like working with IBM. Yeah. You know, it's just they have their way of doing things and we're not deviating from this and we've been deploying this for the last 15 years. It works just fine.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Well, 30 years ago. Things were much more, you know, offline.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
I but that's my kind of my contention or my point is that. We would build something today and then 30 years from now, technology will be so advanced that we have the same problem, only probably in a quicker, faster, shorter time period. Like you can build it for today, but we have no way to actually know we would maintain an update and keep things secure as technology evolves.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
So even if it was safe today, it won't be 30 years from now. And then we'll have it deployed everywhere because it takes, once this stuff's out there, it takes forever to get rid of it. So it seems just short-sighted. Back to your main point. There's other ways to do the job.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Speaking of jobs, I thought you and I, as a couple of longtime seasoned professionals, should review the head of developer community for SignalFire's hot tips for unlocking the aha moment for a developer relations lead. So this is advice targeted at a DevRel employee. position, somebody who's supposed to be working for a company out there that wants to build a community around their projects.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
It's written by Jared Rise, and I will say there is actually some good stuff in this. So I'm not just, we're not just taking shots at it. There's some good stuff in here, but there are a couple of questionable things. He writes, while many startups are eager to build a community from day one, doing DevRel well at an early stage requires you to focus your limited resources. So,
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
He's going to focus on particular things and how to create an aha moment for your early users. Early stage companies have developed... They say it's essential to have developer relations in your product marketing. Every interaction from documentation to demo should quickly drive developers... to a pivotal moment. He's got these tactics they should follow.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
I'm not positive, but I think I read that he's self-representing, the guy that runs... That's a wild choice. Yeah, going up against Nintendo? Yeah. Yeah. But he claims he has... Previous legal cases that he can point to that show what he's doing is totally legal.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
And I want to bounce a couple off of you, okay? This is one I think I'm kind of mid on, and I want to get your take. This is of like probably five or six of them. So here's one of the tactics. Companies need to focus. Don't be everywhere all the time. Nascent startups must resist the temptation to cast a wide net with developer relations initiatives.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
A targeted approach is not only more cost effective, but also yields better results. Examine your early adopters, those enthusiastic individuals who jump at the chance to test your alphas and betas. Let that guide your focus. Identify the job titles and roles of your early champions. If you target an audience, focus only on the channels that those audiences frequent.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Should you sponsor a conference? Well, it depends on your goals. If you're trying to generate a pipeline, you should consider sponsoring conferences where you know your audience, your primary P0 audience, will be in high attendance. One word of advice, if you're seeking for product activation, consider only supporting conferences where you have an accepted talk as well.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Last but not least, focus on geo-located communities. If you're based in a specific city, start by building a strong presence there. This allows you to establish a deeper connection with your early champions and build a solid foundation for growth.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
So what do you think of this tactic about focusing specific areas, certain conferences, and then identify early enthusiastic adopters in your community? That seems kind of like semi-decent advice here. Advice?
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Yeah, so I want to talk about the conference. The conference one is, I think, the hardest to figure out what the return on value is for an individual. It's going for people that are trying to pitch their employer or for people that run their own business or, you know, whatever. It's like, okay, so what am I getting out of this?
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
So having a talk, you know, it's kind of like, well, I'm on the schedule. There's going to be some people that show up. I get to plug some stuff for the business. It almost kind of guarantees you're going to get a little bit of value out of the... Yeah. whole travel, I suppose, so I kind of get that. It's a tricky one.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
But so now the lawsuit's progressing to the discovery stage where Nintendo is going to get access to all his books and all that kind of stuff. So they're going after it's just. I don't know, I guess. Where I where I still sit on this. Is these experiences, especially when you're a kid, like Super Mario World for me and the Sega games like Sonic and stuff, which I was more of a Nintendo guy.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
What I think, and you're right, most of these are pretty on the nose, and yet most tech companies don't even follow these basic ones. And I think some of them get it pretty good. I think Tailscale has a pretty good community outreach and YouTube channel, but A lot of these companies try to go global by producing online media that just sucks. It might as well be a AI product.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
And it's just, you know, it's because it's so narrowly focused and they can't help it. All these companies are insular. So you're in your own little bubble in your company and you go make content and it's bubble content. It's not good overall general content. They don't get big audiences. They try to become YouTubers and they try to create YouTube channels and do live streams and
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
do product release events on live streams. And you see a lot of this out there. And it's such, and having been in some of these companies that do this, it is such an utter waste of the company's time and efforts in outreach. And this is what they consider developer outreach. And it's a massive distraction.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
And you see so many companies blowing this and putting out substandard content that actually makes their brand seem a little cheap and amateur. And yeah, you know, you read this and you're like, oh yeah, this seems obvious. Focus. Nowhere in here did he say launch a YouTube channel. Nowhere in here did he say create a podcast. Right? Yeah.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Okay, now here's the one that I don't know kind of left me feeling a little weird. It's maybe it's the language. Leverage open source as an engagement engine. Creating an open source utility that complements your product can be a powerful way to engage developers.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Yeah. And what I don't like is he kind of argues for like, OK, take your main product. And then like take something kind of related to your main product, but it's not core to your business, but it's useful. Open source that and let your community feel like they're making a big impact there. And you don't have to open source your main stuff.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Well, to me it sounded like a little bit like open core. Like it's just a new – It is open core.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Yeah. It sounded like – I don't know. And he says identify a utility that's closely related to your product and valuable to your target audience. Open source it and build it collaboratively. Okay. I agree with that. But then it goes on to say, track the usage of your open source tools, the number of contributors and how it drives traffic and signups for your main product.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
I think if you launch an open source project with the intention of driving signups to a main product. Yeah, I don't buy it. That's not going to work, son. That's just not going to work. That ain't it, Jif. That ain't it.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Well, and then you think about how it works internally. You got to derive all of these metrics of like, okay, What kind of click through and performance is our open source efforts bringing through our community edition? What is that driving to our main product? And what's the cost to do all that?
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
And like, if you think about how you got to do that from a number standpoint, well, he's got tips on that. He's got tips on that.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
But like those games are slow, like they have such nostalgic value for me. You know, 10 out of 10. Right. I just I hate the idea that something like that can get created, which is kind of an art. And then can completely just disappear unless you continue to buy a $300 device. And now you also have to pay a monthly or annual subscription to Nintendo Online Plus or whatever it's called.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
He says, you know, first of all, you need to set up micro funnels to track each stage of developer engagement. Measure time on documentation, conversion from engaged users to monetized users, and the overall time to value for new developers. I guess he means from making money off it from when they become a new developer to when you're making money off them.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Track these metrics in a plain old spreadsheet, he says, and then later on you get a more advanced system that will help you track all of it.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Yeah. And also if it's like a library utility, you know, it may just get pulled in from a package manager. They have no idea.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
And so he's got, okay, so first, here's the core metrics. Time to first success, e.g. first API call to first deployment. The documentation engagement, so the time spent and pages viewed. Conversion rate from documentation to sign up. Retention rate after the first aha moment. I can measure that.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
And number five, the last one, number of developers influencing deals, which I guess that's maybe like they're advocating the product to their company or something.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Well, and what they're trying to do – and this guy is trying to put himself out there as like this expert on managing developer communities. They're trying to turn developers into sales advocates and sales channels. So they don't really want your contributions.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
What they want is you to sign up for their bigger product or, as they put here, number five, number of developers influencing deals, which I take to mean you find their open source product in your own little home hobby project, cute little home hobby project. Then when you go to work and do your real job, you tell your boss that you should go buy this thing.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
So they're using them as basically free salesmen. I guess they get an open source utility in the process. I don't know. It's like that's where it really took a weird turn for me. Like that's not going to work.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Yeah. Well, you know what came to mind at scale is VS Code.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
And it kind of works. And you get a decent text editor as a result. I mean, maybe it's not your – I don't know. The listener has their favorites, but – Like, it's not bad. And it is kind of, it is like a front-end, it's how you get into the Microsoft Store. It's for how developers get to the Microsoft Store. Just all the back-end services and stuff. So it's totally the Microsoft playbook.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
And you know they're probably tracking those kinds of metrics in Microsoft about conversion and stuff like that. So, I mean, this is the game, I guess.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
So that's why I'm asking for the audience to boost in any companies out there that seem to be actually doing dev relations right in a way that doesn't gross you out. And, of course, I'd love the bad ones, too, just so we can comment here on the show. Because, you know, I guess that's what we like to do.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
So that way you get access to these emulators like they just keep making it more cost prohibitive just to get access to the stuff that you've already bought 30 times in your life. And you want to be able to just experience one more time. And like with Breath of the Wild, I love that so much that I didn't want to play it on a switch anymore.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Hey, man, you know, I realize your business may be obliterated by 170 mile power winds.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
I'll tell you, to me, I hope that everything goes so smooth and these people look so ridiculous. You don't need anything like that. What would you do if the storm came in and disrupted your business operation for a few weeks?
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Yeah. Imagine if they end up getting investigated or something.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
A plus one. All right. Stay a while and listen. Got a listener email I wanted to get to before we get out of here. MJVC highly recommended Mermaid.js for diagramming. Hearing the discussion on making diagrams, I wanted to highlight Mermaid.js, which is a domain-specific language for making diagrams. It's up on GitHub. You can use VS Code with it. You can integrate it with GitHub.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
I wanted it on a device that I could back up, that I could move, that the family could share. It just was just like I have more flexibility. And so when they kill these projects. They're killing our ability to preserve this art. And I know that the Nintendo Switch is a current product, but it's not the easiest thing to run. It requires a pretty high-end computer.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
You can use Obsidian and more. I really like using it as a starting point for a lot of diagrams because it's plain text and popular. Many LLMs are fairly competent at generating them. Yeah, so I looked it up, and it does look really cool. It is a JavaScript-based diagramming tool, uses Markdown-inspired text definitions, which probably makes it pretty easy to pick up if you know Markdown.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
The main purpose of Mermaid is to help documentation catch up with development, they write. It lets you create diagrams and visualizations using text code, JavaScript-based diagramming and charting tool. Mermaid even allows non-programmers to easily create detailed diagrams through the Mermaid Live editor. And then, of course, they have a bunch of integrations,
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Like I mean a bunch, like all of the integrations, really. Like everything. Yeah, a lot of them at least. Notion, Obsidian, Joplin, GitLab, GitHub, GitT, GitBook, Azure DevOps, all the Atlassian products, and a bunch more. Couldn't go through all of them. And apparently LLM integration using HueHive to create mermaid diagrams with text. So that I will put a link to in the show notes.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Again, it's MermaidJS. It's very cool. Yeah, it is, right? I do.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
You can find it online at MermaidJS.org. It's a .org over there. And so, yeah, thank you to MJVC who emailed it in at coder.show slash contact. Thank you also to all of our members who support the show at coder.show slash membership. And everybody who boosts in will have the boosts in next week's episode if all goes as planned.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Mr. Dominic, is there anywhere you want to send the good peeps before we get out of here?
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Also, I'll add in there a hot tip. You don't have to email recommending great guests who just wrote a book. It's so funny when they'll write and be like, hey, guys, I really love the show, and I know you've had some great guests, so I want to recommend one. And then it's like a book author. It's like, lady, we have guests like once a decade. What?
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
All right. Links to what we talked about at coder.show slash 591 will be live next week. You can find it at coder.show slash live on a Tuesday at noon Pacific, 3 p.m. Eastern or in your podcasting 2.0 app or jblive.fm. It'll be in your local time at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar as well. But hey, even if you don't catch a live, we're just glad you listened.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Thank you so much for tuning in to this week's episode of the Coder Radio program. I'll see you right back here next week.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
It's a pretty technical thing to set up. So I doubt it's cutting into the people that are buying Nintendo for all of the Nintendo suite of games to play with the family. It's more for people that maybe they can't afford the Switch or they prioritize the PC over buying consoles. I don't know. But for me, it's about preserving access to these things that me and my family love.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Beyond just the lifetime of a particular console or subscription program.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
I imagine these DRM anti-cheat checks, too, are going to make that a problem.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
I kind of understand it with the Switch. It's a current product. But the modded hardware folks are more about classic, you know, old-style stuff.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
You know, I'm sitting here trying not to get worked up. I can't help but get mad. I know Nintendo does Nintendo things. But they're going after a project that I have personally been using on my Steam Deck hooked up to my TV to play Switch games. And it's an open source Nintendo Switch emulator. They've already gone after one of them. And this is the one I was using.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Yeah. I think that's always, you know, a percentage of the market, especially when the games are 60 bucks and the consoles are $300. Um, But I think there's also a pretty large market that doesn't want to fuss with it. The reason why they buy a Nintendo is they want a really smooth experience that's just The games work out of the box on the thing just like you expect.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
The controllers, you know, they work just like you expect. Everything just works with the Nintendo and the Nintendo Switch. And I think a lot of people buy it for that experience and for those games, and they don't really care to pirate it. I think that's still a huge customer base regardless of these tools exist.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
This is why I get frustrated with myself that it still works me up after all this time, because I know Nintendo's going to Nintendo. Right. You know what I would like to see, you know, would make me a little bit happier, like in the case of modded hardware. What if they just sold a $100 Super Nintendo console? You know?
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
So I have upstairs here in the studio a Super Nintendo that I bought off eBay that's hooked up to a CRT monitor. Nice. Yeah, and that works pretty well. And I fire it up once a year, you know, and make sure it still works. But I don't really play it as much as I thought I would. But that was my solution, was just go find the actual hardware and buy it.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
But, you know, that's not going to work forever. Stuff's not going to last forever. I'm grateful it lasts as long as it has, though. The Coder Radio Program is a value-for-value podcast. What is that? Well, it's a monetization model. It's a content format. And I guess it's a way of life, if you will. It's the idea that podcasts should be open.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
They shouldn't be behind paywalls and they should be on any podcast app that you want. And it's really about being available to the largest possible audience as well, because realistically, it's not a growth strategy for a podcast to go behind a paywall. So the idea is if you get value from the podcast, you want to keep us around. You enjoy the discussion. It makes you think about things.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
You contribute in some way when you can in your time, your talent or your treasure. Your time could be maybe taking the time to tell somebody else about the show or joining our community and participating when we're live. Talent, maybe you've got some skills and you can check out our GitHub and see if there's things that you could help over there to move things along for Jupyter Broadcasting.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
And treasure. What is treasure? Well, thanks to the Lightning Network, monetary value can be exchanged instantly without friction with no middleman. directly to us. And for a lot of people, that is the most straightforward way for them to contribute. And when you boost in, we will read your message if it's above 2000 sats.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Then, of course, we have our membership at Coder.show slash membership, where you can put your support on autopilot. All right. And thank you, everybody. I'll also take a moment to say thank you to those of you who do support the show. Coder.show slash membership and go check out a new podcast app like Fountain.fm.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
So we've recently been talking about AI regulation on the show and sort of the long-term second-order impacts that can have, which we're always a little cautious of. And then in between shows, a story came out about some Chinese hackers. I think they call themselves Salt Typhoon. And they breached AT&T, Verizon, and a couple of other carriers recently.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
And we're just discovering what they did is they got access to the wiretap systems that are in place for the government. And these are called the C-A-L-E-A, CALEA. And it's a 30-year-old law that mandates that telecom companies comply with government orders to get... access to wiretap. It's mandated. They have to do it. It's federal law. And as you can imagine, something like that ages.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
And they kind of like played hardball in a different way than their typical tactic. They kind of like got a hold of him and they're like, it would be good if you were to shut down your GitHub. Let's just say this project should disappear. If you were to go away, our legal team may move on to other things. You know what I mean? They got that kind of contact.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
that has massive access like that, it becomes a pretty big target. So U.S. investigators believe that the hackers potentially accessed the wiretap warrant request, so they got maybe access to all of the warrant requests or more. They don't know.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
I think the goals of the Chinese campaign are not yet fully known, but the Wall Street Journal cited a national security source who considers the breach, quote, potentially catastrophic. The intrusions into the U.S. wiretap system are the latest examples of malicious abuse of the back door, ostensibly meant...
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
For lawful and legal purposes, the law says, this is a quote, the law says your telecom must make your calls wiretappable unless it encrypts them, creating a system that was always a target for bad actors. This is according to a Stanford academic and encryption policy expert. They write, the hack exposes the lie that the U.S.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
government needs to be able to read every message you send and listen to every call you make. And I wanted to bring this up because it's about regulating backdoor access into technology. And as we see the pressure that's being put on Telegram and just the conversation around encryption and the EU chat laws that have been, well, they're still getting kicked around.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
A lot of it is about baking in backdoors into these things so that they can do ostensibly wiretapping. The Signal president wrote on Mastodon, quote, there's no way to build a backdoor that only the good guys can use. Yep. All right. So do you think a little reality check? Is this a fair case and study to point to and say this is why we don't legislate backdoors built into things?
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Because look what just happened here. These salt typhoon hackers. I've apparently been persistently accessing this information for quite a long time using something that was mandated.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Of course. Or terrorism, right? There's always terrorism.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Well, okay, hold on. To steal a man a little further, I think maybe the perspective is Look, we have a job to do. These are common channels of communication. We have been doing our job for a long time with access to this. We believe we do it responsibly and under the rules of the law. And we want lawful access to these communications so we can do our job.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
And if I can't decrypt what's in this kid's messages after he set off a pipe bomb, I can't do my job. I'm not trying to I'm not trying to peep on you. Well, I know, but that's what they this is the argument that they're going to use, I think.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
So GitHub gets taken down, voluntarily deleted. Well, voluntarily in response to Nintendo's demands. But the website's still going, and the Discord channel remains active. So, like, maybe there's... I'm sure there's ways you can still pass around a tarball of this thing or something like that. So that's happening.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Right, right. Or just in your browser history or whatever it might be.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Because they're ISPs as well. They're not just telco providers. They're tracking people's data too. They're seeing what GitHub project you're going to.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Yeah, I think you're right. And I think two things would have to be true in order for me to sort of be pro backdoor to encryption into chat apps. Just keep it in that room. One, I think like what you're inferring, the legal machinery and apparatus is too out of tune. It is too dysfunctional to be fully trusted at this point with that kind of power.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
Even if it didn't affect us individually, it could be used for political blackmail. It could be used for all kinds of shenanigans behind the scenes that we'd never know about. And so there's just not the trust in the legal apparatus that would be around this to govern it correctly.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
But then, and to a point that Wes is making in the live chat, the second thing that would have to be done is we'd have to be able to manage our infrastructure and build things in a logical way that can be maintainable and sustainable and that can remain secure over a 30-year period. And I can't yet point to anything that demonstrates that we have the ability in those sectors to do that.
Coder Radio
591: FOSS does what Nintendont
And then additionally, they're going after the modded hardware folks who make, like, a Nintendo-like device. So now the modded hardware website is private. And they have... They're fighting, though. In this one, this one is a straight-on legal fight, and they're taking it to court. I think... I think they might be self-representing.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
This is Coda Radio, episode 587, recorded on September 10th, 2024. Hey friend, welcome in to Jupyter Broadcasting's weekly talk show, taking a pragmatic look at the art and the business of software development and the world of technology. My name is Chris, and sharpening his claws, it's our host, Mr. Dominic. Hello, Mike. Huzzah! Happy debate day. Oh, yeah. You have to be excited for us. Yeah.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
I think my wife's on the 11th. Sure, why not? So they have a real big problem here. The market has moved into an area where they're irrelevant, and their prices are not that great. So you're looking at two, three iPhone release cycles now before you upgrade. What I saw up there was a company dancing for Wall Street after Wall Street already left the theater.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Also, I don't know what's going on with that new first page UI. It's confounding. Totally confounding.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Ad business didn't come up yet, but that may come up in the next trial.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
There's a lot of air. So the whole pitch is, well, I know your current phone is fine and the cameras have gotten so good you can't even tell the difference anymore when you upgrade. And, you know, for some this is not true, but for a lot of people, probably the majority of iPhone users, they're in a one or two or three generations back.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
It seems a little too extreme, too. It was a 10-week trial, right? And then, boom, now we're talking about splitting up one of the largest tech companies in the world, who's, I don't know, like, I don't love Google. And I'm going to make it clear, I think people on this show know how I feel about Google. I've gone through a lot of efforts to de-Google my life.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And Apple's pitch is, well, this new stuff is so awesome that you're going to need, you know, that's why they did the whole, we went over, we jumped over the A17, and we went all the way to the A18, 3 nanometer.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
That's why they made a big deal about it, because what they're trying to say is, these new phones have more RAM, they've got more CPU, they're faster at everything, bigger batteries, and you get the AI features. You need all that horsepower, right? You want these AI features. Your phone finally is no longer fast enough.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
But the reality is, if you just don't care about those features, it's plenty fast. And the other thing that's sort of not compelling about these phones, and I don't know if consumers will fully understand this, you're going to get the phone and not everything's there. In December... you're going to see some more features roll out.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And in October, you're going to see some, so October 1st, some features roll out December next, some features roll out. And then slowly it rolls out for places outside the United States, like Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and South Africa and the UK are the first on the list, but they don't start getting stuff until like 2025 for some of the features.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
So imagine buying this phone in September and, Because of the AI features, but you're in the UK, and you don't get feature completion until 2025 because you guys just say things funny. You know? Like, that sucks, man.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
They're like shipping on the hairy, ragged edge of what they can do as a company. Like they worked for a year plus on this probably. Yeah. And that this is the absolute best, and it's probably not even fully baked.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
So it's interesting how more and more Apple is getting comfortable with. Well, we can't delay the iPhone. We got bills to pay. So we're just going to delay the software and ship it in stages. And that's just like it started with a couple of features like camera settings. Remember, that's how it started. A couple of things in the camera app, like maybe it was portrait mode would come later.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And now it's like the entire value prop of the phone comes later. That's where we're at now.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And, you know, the Apple Watch looks good, the new Apple Watch. The sleep apnea detection, legitimately, if somebody has sleep apnea, I would love to have that in my watch just so I can kind of keep an eye if things are getting worse. Yeah, that makes sense. And they made it smaller and charge faster. Like, you know, okay. The poor iPad got no love. Apple Vision Pro didn't even get a mention.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Yeah, the AirPods seem like they're still a really good product, and the auto-transition between silence and, like, it detects a conversation and does pass-through, like, that stuff... They're all kind of like, oh, man, I wish we always had those features. But Apple, you know, Apple adding them is really good.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
In fact, I would, again, like this list from the audience, any recommendations for great AirPods that are not AirPods but have fantastic noise rejection. Maybe even has somebody else done this auto conversation transition and Apple's pretending like it's brand new? I want all that. I just don't want AirPods because I want to be able to use it with other devices.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
I know I'm crazy, but I want to be able to pair it with my Switch or my phone. You can pair them as Bluetooth. Yeah, I know.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Not a big fan of theirs, and I think they are kind of a disappointment as a company these days. However, if you were to break up Google's ad business and you were to break up Chrome and you were to start splitting these things up, there may be some advantages to that.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Well, no, you know what's Tim Cookie is they didn't do anything except for USB-C on the Maxes. It's still got the H1 chip. Everything's the same. It's just the same price. Even the earmuffs are the same. Everything's the same except for it has USB-C.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Um, and it's okay, but it's a $550 product, which we have a pair in my house and we also have pairs of bows and we have Sony's and I'm not going to say maybe the, maybe the AirPod Max is sound the best, but they don't necessarily have the best sound rejection. Um, they are okay, but having just flown with them to Toronto and back, um, they could be better.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And their design also transfers a lot of vibration and noise into the headphones in a way that the Sony's and the Bose do not. So there is room for improvement on these, you know, $550 headphones and USB-C wasn't just it. Yeah. I, I,
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
cooking right or I'm like yes I you know insert thing here and I want to listen to the second I put hair I put air pods in or anything like that that's when the kids talk to me or the wife talks to me it's like it's some sort of homing honing beacon for my entire family to come ask me a question
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
I am looking for something that has great active noise canceling because not only – I use – the two environments I use them are really extreme, flights and driving my RV, which creates a bunch of just internal noises, stuff rattles. And so you put the old headphones on for a little peace of mind, but it has to be really good.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
All in all, they're good products, and if you're already in the Apple ecosystem, Apple continues to deliver really great, solid updates to Apple users, and if you've already invested, if you're on a phone that's a year too old, or maybe you're on a watch that's a couple of models old, these are all really great updates, and Apple cranks us out like clockwork.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Google, some years you get a Pixel watch, it's okay. Other years you get a Pixel watch, it's garbage. The Pixel 8 seemed kind of like mid. Pixel 9 seems like it's pretty great. They don't have the consistency that Apple does. And as an Apple user, you know that, hey, if I just wait a year and I buy every other year, you're going to get a noticeable upgrade in all the things you care about.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
I'd be really curious to solicit the audience's thoughts on what those might be because what I can think of right now are the negatives.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
It does have a new 5G chip in it that's supposed to be a lot better. So there's that too.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Yeah, I don't really have a lot either, but when I do get good 5G, it's pretty sweet. It is actually pretty sweet.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Oh, my God. You got almost the same image I got when I told the AI to generate.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Did you see that? Did you see my image? It's almost identical.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And the reality, in my opinion, is that you can throw a lot of things at Google, but when you compare them to other advertising companies or other tech companies, Google has probably one of the most transparent, documented, and understood privacy policies out there. And Google is held to a very high standard. Now, I'm sure they're constantly secretly violating that trust.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
But maybe if you've done it 20, 30 times, it would be second nature, but it's just a different path.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Yeah. I've only had like a brief bit of experience with it, but it did seem like more of the real deal. Like Microsoft had to rethink of how to do this. And also in WSL2, like they've plumbed in the ability to like pipe graphical applications through. So it's like it does more stuff as well.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
I recall there was pretty good integration with Visual Code Studio. Did you get a chance to play with that?
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Did you get a sense of how much overhead on your Windows box there was by keeping a WSL system in the background running? I'm assuming, I know you, you probably went with Penguin, right?
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
So what kind of resources are we talking here? Is it gigs and gigs and gigs of RAM? Is it kind of unnoticeable?
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
But they still, I think, probably are better in this area than any other tech company, let alone any other company in America, probably the rest of the world. And I'm not saying they're great.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Now, did you try any kind of Docker setup? Because like our podcast in the chat room is saying he's had some major issues trying to get Docker on WSL on his Windows 10 laptop.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Yeah, I don't remember having a strong problem, but I probably only played with Docker for like 15 seconds. To me, it just never makes sense because I'm not doing application development. I'm running the end result in most cases. I'm deploying the Docker container on a system, and then for me, it's just always made sense to just... do that on a native Linux box.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
What do you feel like the advantage is for you here, having Windows? I mean, obviously you get like applications that are only available for Windows, but is there something beyond, say, application compatibility?
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
But as far as what they let you control, what you can delete, take your, you know, they have Google takeout and what and and they tell you what they're watching and what they monitor and they document it copiously. And. No other company is going to have those levels of protections. And the further down the food chain you go, the worse those protections are going to get.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And nothing prevents them from being Linux boxes, too. So that's the other nice thing is, like, you can buy it with Windows. You know you can use Windows. But also down the road, you want to make it a Linux machine when you get the next computer or something like that. You know, it's a little bit harder with a Mac. it can become an overpowered Plex server. Sure. Yeah, or a NAS.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Yeah, you just don't, I mean, you can do that stuff with the Mac if you want to use macOS for sure, but if you want to use Linux, well, then you're looking at Asahi and you're looking at some stuff like maybe your speakers or the Wi-Fi not quite working.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
In my opinion, it's the damnedest thing that's happened because Linux had this incredible compatibility momentum with Proton and the launch of the Steam Deck. And it seemed like we were entering a new era. And it has greatly improved, greatly improved. But...
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
the momentum has definitely been stolen because a few great games, um, have these horrible anti-cheat systems and that just do not let Linux play at all. And, uh, you know, even like companies like Roblox, they have these on and off relationships, ships with Linux where, you know, it's okay for using it under wine for a little bit.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And then all of a sudden they'll start banning accounts that are using wine. And then now it's seemingly back on again and you can, and it's, It's really frustrating, and it's to their own detriment as they just are locking people into a platform that doesn't care about them.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And so in some bizarre way, a move that may be touted as great for consumer privacy, i.e. breaking away Android and Chrome from Google, may actually be worse for consumer privacy. Because it's not like these tracking behaviors go away, but now you just have companies that are held to lower standards that have lower standards of privacy policies making deals with each other.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
He doesn't have a title, does he? I don't know. Does he have a title?
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Yeah, might be. Well, I guess if anyone out there listening has some WSL experience, boost it in and tell us what it's been like and tips and tricks you've used to make it viable for you. You know, I have this low-key pressure campaign for my son to put him on Windows because...
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
The buddy he hangs out with, his dad works at Microsoft and they're constantly dunking on the fact that he can't play a couple of video games that look like crap anyways. Fortnite. So I think, you know, I would love some advice there because if he ever does end up on Windows, he's going to also have to have WSL. He's going to be living and breathing that and so...
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Four score and seven boosts to go. All right. We got some boosts and a baller boost this week, and it's a biggie from our podcast.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
He writes, hello, Mike and Chris. The only time I've ever done a fist pump while mowing the lawn was listening to Coder Radios and the call out for the epic R boost as the official Coder Radio language. Just so devoted. It is my duty to keep the momentum going.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
That's where my concern comes in. And that's just my first reaction.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
In what other language could I go from creating an over-the-top hotshot racing metrics dashboard to sharing an interactive shiny web app compiled in WebAssembly to the FDA? Might be some great show content, hashtag just saying. So he links us to the old hotshots dashboard here. This is hilarious and awesome at the same time.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And Eric's also in the chat room, so he may even end up titling the episode if he gives us a good one. This is so great. This dashboard is part of a very fun stack of open-source software created for the official Wimpy's World of Linux gaming, most official unofficial hotshot racing league. Have you ever played Hotshot Racers? Good little game.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
It is an older game, and it's sort of like a cel-shaded look, but it's just pure fun. I'm a big fan of the game. I don't play it very often, but I did back in the day a little bit, so that's a great example right there. Eric, thank you for that amazing boost. The, uh... They are crew. Do they have a nickname? Because they are kings of the coder official language crew right now.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
I don't even know what to say. It's very impressive. Very impressive. They really are. Rotted Mood comes in with 50,000 sats. I hoard that which your kind covet. Just as value for value. Thank you, Rotted Mood. We really appreciate that. Tampa Tech Trekkie is back with 5,000 sats. You supposed.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
I think Mike hit the nail on the head with the whole if Steve Jobs were still alive bit. In that after Next... where Steve had been, he says it humbled him and he learned to get along to some degree with others. The iMac supported great web standards, but also Steve Jobs made Java an optional dev language in the first few editions of OS X and was taking cues from Linux back then.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Heck, they even experimented with making the Linux kernel on OS X, but it seems the GPL prevented that. I remember Jobs bragging about how, quote, Linux-like OS X was. That's what made the Apple of the 21st century. What's killing it are things like app signing, et cetera.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And, you know, I remember I had a screenshot. I've long, long lost, but I remember a screenshot of literally them comparing to like Fedora. They had a Fedora terminal and an OS X, which that's what it was called back then. It was Red Hat, right? Because you got to get that Red Hat.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And they were comparing the two literally like, wow. There's like a Fedora terminal in the keynote. It was a different time. You're right. They were really trying to lean into getting software developers and power users on the platform. But they're not at that stage anymore, right? And the reality is that normies like gates and security guards and people walking around with flashlights.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And that's what the iPhone is now. It's more like the Nintendo Switch than it is a general computing device, I think. What's remarkable about this episode is it was, you know, it ended up being really solidly supported just because we had a few folks really step up because Scuba Steve takes us out with 14,300 sets. Thank you very much. Put some macaroni and cheese on there, too. There you go.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Nice. He says, hey, guys, here's my response to what if Steve Jobs was still alive. You both rightly pointed out the differences between Cook and Jobs, Cook being an accounting-focused CEO and Jobs being a product guy. But the biggest distinction in my mind is that Jobs is a founder. Founder-led companies get leeway with investors for moonshots and long runway projects that other companies don't.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Look at Zuck's crazy spending on the metaverse. This is why a Jobs Apple in 2024 had the potential to be much more of a consumer and product-focused company and less focused on quarterly earnings. But who can really say? I agree with that. There is something different about founder-led companies. We've had that conversation on the show once before. Zuck gets so much leeway.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
He says, bonus question regarding Nostra. Yeah. Yeah. So in the Nostra world, you have a private key and a public key. And yeah, if you want to use an extension like Albi to manage it, Albi is transitioning to a fully self-hosted on your own computer, not run by them service. And they've introduced the Albi hub that you can just start up as a Docker container.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
That's what I was thinking, too. Yeah. Chrome is not a sustainable model if it's not part of an overall web strategy by a giant corporation. Right. Like the way Chrome starts to get monetized when it's its own company is a lot creepier. You see what I'm saying? Right.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
So in that case, it no longer is hosted by their services. So Albie actually just recently made that transition. There's another one that I cannot remember the name of, but it's also a browser extension that is locally encrypted and all runs locally, kind of like a Bitwarden password vault.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Those are solutions where the reason why you would use these is you go to one of these Nostra connected websites or applications. They're going to ask for your key. And instead of you having to paste in your key every time, much like Bitwarden, you put in a master password and then it does the key connection.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And then it gives you a level of privileges and a nice GUI to select how much access you want to give these things. Because these Nostra connected applications, you have to grant them permission to how much of you they get. And so Albie also gives you a nice UI around that. He says he's been listening since 2015 and he's a Jupiter Party member since the beginning. Yeah.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
We got to get Mike to a meetup. Well, I got to get down to Florida, I think, is the reality of the situation.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
No, I want to have an excuse to go to Florida when it's crappy here, like January or March. Oh, that's actually a nice time to come down here. You don't want to come here in the summer.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
It's just the problem is it's so busy. But, you know, if I flew in, you know, I planned ahead of time, get a little Airbnb, do some shows down there in the Airbnb. I think it could work out. We just got to raise the boost to make it happen. Thank you, everybody who participated. We had 19 listeners stream. We had more people that were streaming while they listened than boosted in this week.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And we stacked with the streamers 17,588 sets. We had four folks boost in. So all combined, we had 23 unique people participate. And we stacked a grand total of 386,888 sets. Not too bad at all. Thank you, everybody. This is a totally listener-supported show, which has been kind of a breath of fresh air for us in a way. I think eventually a sponsor will come knocking.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
If it's the right one, I'll say yes, but I also can say no, thanks to the support we've gotten from the audience. And it's been really nice. It's been, I think, over a year now, completely audience-funded. So if you would like to fund on your own terms with the amount you like, with a message, when you like, how you like, then just go get a new podcast app, podcastapps.com.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
We were talking about Noster, Fountain. We'll let you create a Nostra identity, and then you can take that identity and move it between all the different applications. It's not stuck just to Fountain. And it's a really easy way to, like, low-key, not even realize you've started a Nostra identity, and then take it further if you want. Fountain.fm for that.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Lots of great apps, though, at newpodcastapps.com. And, of course, thank you to our members. I think we'll have to cook up before the holidays a Coder QA or something for him, something like that. We just had one released a few weeks ago, and that's in the member feed. You also get an ad-free version of the show. We appreciate all of you.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
I just want to mention this one story because it was sent in to me a few times before we leave, and you probably saw it going around. It's, quote, a shocking leak that suggests your phone is really listening in on all of your conversations.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
It's like they got us. It's like they're too big to fail now. Chrome's too big to fail. And if you break it off into its own company, it's going to have – ginormous infrastructure costs. Huge, huge server-side costs to maintain and deploy Chrome. It's the kind of thing that only a wacky tech company that makes a ton of money from something else entirely could do. So, yeah, man. I don't know.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
A presentation was being given by Cox Media Group that claims their active listening SDK uses AI to collect and analyze real-time intent data by listening... This is what we talked about last week. No, you and I talked about it in Slack. Oh, that's right. We didn't talk about it in the show, and I've been getting messages about it all week.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
They say they can listen to what you're saying, use AI to generate the intent, and then target ads. And... They had Amazon's logo on there, Google's logo on the slide deck, and Facebook's logo on the slide deck. Ridiculous. And the media took this presentation and ran with it as saying, here you go. These companies are actually spying on you 24-7 and using it to target ads.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And then I started getting people sending me stories about, you know, I was out in the yard talking to the wife about a boat. And then I came back inside and got on my device and it had ads for boats. I think this is really happening. Now, Amazon, Google, Facebook, they've said we don't have anything to do with this company. They've told this company to take our logos off.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
We've never used your SDK. And it's not clear in their presentation if it's actually listening 24-7. The way it's actually phrased, if you look at the original reporting, is it looks like it's embedded into individual applications. So the mic would be listening while a particular app is running.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
The thing that is persistent in these messages that I'm receiving, and I'm not dunking on anybody, is the stringent belief that these devices are actually listening to us 24-7 and streaming the data back to Google or Facebook. And somehow the devices are accomplishing this without getting warm. Without generating a large data bill and without draining the battery.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And they're somehow doing it even after the applications have been closed and the operating systems close applications running in the background and things like that. And they're doing it so effectively that you could be outside in the yard talking about a boat. And when you come inside and you fire up your computer, there's ads for boats.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And it's just this idea persists, even though it's technically not feasible, right? If you have a phone that can do that, I would love that battery life. If you have a phone that can do that, I'd love that data plan.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Also, somehow all of the sysadmins in all of the world that have metrics on their nodes and how much data they use, they've never seen any one of these devices chirping gigs worth of audio data. And then the second argument I get is, well, what if it's just listening on device and using a model? to process the audio and look for keywords, which I think will happen eventually.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
But again, the battery and the CPU and the data required to do all of this is exponential. So I just, I don't know. I just, once again, I just want to encourage people to think about this critically. Really? That's all this, this is a PSA? Like this is, your devices, if you truly believe things like the Amazon app and the Facebook app are spying on you 24-7, uninstall them.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
But I promise you, the bigger threat vector is the fact that they're reading every single email you receive, that they have a web of cookies that they're tracking you with. The bigger problem is they know you better than you realize, and you're just not that special, and they can figure out that you want a boat. Because they know you. They can figure out you like this band.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
This is another example going around. A band that you haven't liked for a long time, all of a sudden you want to get tickets, boom, all of a sudden you get an advertising for it because you talked about it with the wife. Maybe they just know you well enough. They know that band's going to be in town. They know because you were a music subscriber how many times you've played that track.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
That's a great point too. Yeah, like you're not thinking about all the ads you saw for razors. But that one boat sticks out.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
But for people listening, it's just post debate day. So hope you had fun. Hope you had fun. Oh, yeah. You know, Google's not having too much fun. So the Biden administration has, you know, the DOJ part. So the DOJ has not publicly offered. A plan for what they're going to do with Google.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And we happen to have an audience that the advertisers have decided they no longer care to target. Right. Which I think is silly. I think it's a great audience. And with a good product, we can do a good sales job. But the reality is that they pick and choose the markets. And, like, my wife gets these... She doesn't use any social media except for Pinterest.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And again, I sort of feel, I'm not 100% on this feeling, but it seems like five years too late, everybody. Right? Google is facing more competition than ever. And if Google's broken up like this, like you said, I'd rather see YouTube become its own company. That would be a lot better.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And you wouldn't believe the kind of ads she gets in Pinterest. I mean, they definitely know that she is a married woman in her 40s. I'll just put it that way.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
It's fascinating. And I understand how it feels creepy. I do get that. But... The PSA here really is that if you read a story that is based on the original story, it's two or three levels removed and it's getting reported as Amazon and Facebook and Google are listening to you 24-7 and it's getting reported as fact. But if you go back to the original reporting, it was the CMG group.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
They were giving a presentation and they just put Google, Amazon and Facebook's logo on their slides when they're talking about their SDK. They're an Atlanta-based media conglomerate that makes like billions of dollars a year in advertising. So they probably are doing very creepy stuff, the CMG group.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
But they were using these other companies' names to sort of like, you know, I guess affinity scan. Yeah.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Gmail, every single social app. I've had Gmail since it was invite-only beta, so they know everything from dating to marriage to divorce to next. I got all kinds of stuff. It's crazy. And Gmail was literally designed to never delete stuff for a reason.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
But I'm the crazy one for wanting to do boosts. What's in your wallet? A little bitty spy. Yeah. Well, I bought seven spies in the chain, actually. Seven different spies. Yeah. True. Because the ISP is there, too. I know I just stepped into it because every time I get on this topic, everybody that believes their phone is spying on them gets upset with me.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
But I'm saying you've got to make the technical argument for how it could work. Do that. Send me a technical argument for how it's possible.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
There you go. I'm going to say chrislast.com because that goes to my fancy pants, Nostra page over on Primal. And then I think we're going to be live next week on Tuesday at our regular time if you want to join us at noon Pacific, 3 p.m. Eastern. I might need to move the next week. Okay, we'll figure it out. Or I might need to do it. Yeah, we'll figure it out off air.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
I would love to see YouTube have to fairly compete in that market so it doesn't just have an absolute monopoly over video on the web and then thus a monopoly over speech on the web in video form.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I knew that was coming, but I just was still surprised by it. Yeah, terrible. Yes. You can find links to what we talked about today at coder.show slash 587. Over there, we got all kinds of stuff. Like, I don't know, the RSS feed. Have you heard of that? Yeah, you can search for previous episodes. That's great. You know, do a little backlog, spelunking.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Of course, you can also send us a contact over there or get involved in the old boosties. You know, it's a lot of fun. That's at thecoder.show. .show, it's the TLD. Can you believe they do that? I couldn't. Now everybody's doing it. Anyways, thanks so much for listening to this week's episode of the Coder Radio Program. See you right back here next week.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Oh, yeah. You're right about that. You are right about that. OK, well, a little bit of feedback. So, you know, last week for like 10 minutes, the Gophers won and we had a song. Well, BHH, a.k.a. Brian's back. He says, well, it was a short-lived victory. I just heard that massive R boost, so here is R's official song.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Now, this one's going to help us chill out after thinking about those annoying Google problems and help us relax a little bit with an R song in the style of folk music.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
How do you comfort an R programmer who's feeling down? You tell them, don't worry. Everything will be all right. Thank you, BHH. You can find him on Nostra or Fountain as BHH32, a.k.a. Brian. Very soothing. It was, wasn't it?
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
It's interesting. You see the Gophers and the R folks, they were a little more rowdy. I mean, the Gopher and the Rust folks, sorry. And the R folks seem a little chill, man. It's like everything's going to be okay.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
We're going to have, you know, final judgment in August of next year, but they're already leaking what some of their considerations are. And it looks like they're considering the leaks is on the table. A forced sale of Android. Forced sale off of Chrome. But nothing in the leak about the ad business, which is what all the news was talking about this morning, was the ad business.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
I think – clearly. Clearly. I just want to take a moment and say thank you to everybody who supported the show recently. For last week, Coda Radio was in the number one spot for top episodes on Fountain FM thanks to your boost. The boost put it on the charts in the number one position. That's just fantastic because it means a whole bunch of new people will discover us.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And of course, Fountain FM just had their 1.1 release, which includes full Nostra support. So if you've been considering just dipping a toe in Nostra to see what it's like to own your own identity online... Well, they have a setup wizard that'll create a Nostra public key for you and a private key. And then you can take that to other apps. It's cross-app compatible.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
It's just a public-private key pair system. And now Fountain will create one for you if you don't already have one. So it's a cool way to check out the Fountain app and... get your Nostra identity started as well.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
It's just so awesome to see you guys boost in, the fun that we've had with the language battles, and then to see it work Coder up to the number one spot in the charts and have a bunch of new people discover the show because of that.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
I'm just simply so grateful for our members, the Coder QA crew, and of course the Jupiter Signal members who support the show on autopilot, and of course you boosters who boost in with a podcasting 2.0 app like Fountain. It means the world to us, and it's kept us on the air for this last year. All right, let's get to this.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
We don't have to spend a lot of time on this, but we should talk about it at least. The iPhone 16 is out. We got an i6. As everybody expects, you got a pro and you got a regular one. You know, Apple really, really leaned into health and the, quote, impact on our lives. And everything was designed from the ground up for Apple intelligence, just like we knew it would be.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Tim was really out there with the enthusiasm, a.k.a. yelling. iPhone 16 starts at $799. The 16 Plus starts at $899 for a 128-gigabyte model. And they did something kind of cute for the iPhone 16 that I wanted to get your thoughts on. They blasted right past the A17, and they went to the A18 with 17% more memory bandwidth.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
built for AI models running on-chip 6-core CPU, 2 performance, 4 low power, and they say 30% faster than the iPhone 15 while using less power. Notably, they did a lot of comparisons just to the 15. A lot of times I see Apple go back a model or two, but for the GPU, CPU, and neural cores, they were comparing it mostly to the iPhone 15. And they also stuck a bigger battery in this thing and Wi-Fi 7.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
So looking at just the raw performance, Mike, you got the A18 chip with about 30% faster performance overall than the iPhone 15 last year's model, which is incredible at this stage. You got the bigger battery. You got Wi-Fi 7 in this thing. Just base, looking at the hardware specs, seems like, you know, pretty decent iPhone if you're like on a 14 or older right now.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
I think Apple's hoping that the intelligence features would kind of draw you to upgrading.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
I think it's like I think it's like twelve ninety nine if you want five twelve gig or something. Yeah, I don't see it. You know, I think I do always like the Apple event. I'm on the 14 myself, and I have a Pixel 7, and I've really kind of been stuck in this sort of phantom zone of between ecosystems.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Because it turns out there's a separate antitrust that has just kicked off around just the ad business. And they're going to try to slice that off, too. This would be way beyond what they did for Microsoft back in the early 2000s, right? Because Microsoft didn't actually have to split out into a bunch of different companies. What do you think?
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And, like, you really these days have to make a hard commit if you're really going to get a $1,200 device. Yeah. I'm not sure any of the software features are a hard commit for me because while I do think people are going to buy this phone for emoji gen and things like that, I think what we'll discover pretty quickly is that...
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
It's pretty standard AI gen stuff that you can get from a lot of different services or open source self-hosted projects online. And it's going to be pretty boxed, right? Apple sandboxes everything. So these things are going to be pretty safe. They're probably going to all look like Apple stuff.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
So you're going to probably after, you know, a few months after these features ship, whenever they do ship, which is ironic, people will be getting the iPhone 16. And as far as I can tell, most of these features aren't even going to be in the phone, which is hilarious. It really shows you the pace of what they're trying to do this, and yet they're still a year too late to the market.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
You're going to know. When you see an emoji or you see a picture, you're going to know that it came from an iPhone 15 or whatever, 16, Apple. You're going to know that it was an Apple-generated thing because they're all going to have a look because that's how Apple works. And I'm not sure I even want to participate in that. So...
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Other than things like email summary and text shortening, which I can do via other apps on the phone today, like Spark email does that already on the existing iPhone, I don't think I'm going to do it myself. I do find it interesting how Apple is at this state now where The rest of the industry is kind of catching up to them in terms of quality of device.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
I don't like them, but Samsung has some pretty good phones today. They just have way too many SKUs. The Pixel 8 and 9 have been pretty solid devices. The 9 in particular looks really nice. And the iPhone, while still the best, in my opinion, hardware, the gap's starting to get a little narrower, and the price is starting to get a little... a little harder to swallow.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And now they have to start differentiating in software. And they do this very, very, very well. Like they do it with integration with the Apple Watch. They do it now with satellite messaging and calling, which they are expanding, which I think is a killer feature. I mean, that thing almost, almost sells the phone right there for my family members, right?
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Because, or me, you know, imagine I'm on a road trip somewhere without cell frequency that happens often. Maybe this would save my life one day. I mean, that's a serious feature, although the Android phones are going to start having that too. They're trying to differentiate with these types of features, you know, and Apple intelligence is one of them.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
But the reality is the Apple intelligence is going to be substandard to what Microsoft slash open AI or Google can do. You know, the Washington Post had a headline this morning and said the iPhone 16's Apple intelligence is useful except for when it's bonkers.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And we talked about this before, and I'd said, if they don't nail this Apple intelligence stuff after already being a year late to the market, it's going to be like the Apple Vision Pro. It's just not going to matter, and nobody's going to be talking about it in six months after all of this hype and all of this. They reoriented the entire damn company and injected AI into everything.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
And the initial results are it's still very beta. Joanna Stern said the same thing on CNBC this morning. It is very beta still. Well, that sucks, man, because they're already late to market. They're so late to market that they're not even getting much of a stock bump from any of this. And the analysts are coming on the air and saying, well, this doesn't really matter.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
So this we're going to get we're going to get strung along, strung along until August. So maybe we talk about it now and then we just watch. But I'm curious at the onset of this with the DOJ leaking this to publishers at Politico. Seemingly to try to specifically say Android Chrome. Off on their own, they have to be their own separate businesses. YouTube didn't come up.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Doesn't really move the needle. We're not going to play into the super cycle because of this. I.E. Apple is irrelevant in the most and only not the most. Not the most. The only category in tech that has mattered for now two years, and Apple is a total non-player in it.
Coder Radio
587: Surfing the WSL Wave
Additionally, while their hardware is great, you know, here I am on the iPhone 14, so we're like, I'm not sure I want to spend $1,200. So they're not differentiating enough on the software anymore, and the hardware is too expensive because of where they've placed themselves in the market. So, you know, look around. Any non-tech person, they're on like three iPhones a go.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Yeah, generally. And if you're just tabbing out, then you might as well just be listening to audio.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Especially if you're looking for information about something, having to skim through a 14 minute video where they're going to have an intro, they're going to have a like and subscribe, they're going to have a sponsor plug and then they're going to have something else in there. And you're just trying to get the it's like it's like the old meme about.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Recipes, how you have to read their life story before you get the recipe, that's what YouTube is for anything that's instructional. It can be useful if you need a visual demonstration, no doubt about it. I find it very useful when I'm looking how to fix something on the car.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
But if I'm just looking for information about how to install a piece of software and I want to know what the flags are for when I launch the application, I don't want to watch a video for that. I just want something written down.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
The only way this would be useful is if I had all the knobs. Like if I could give it the RSS feeds and I could tune what they focus on, what they actually go deep on, what stupid stuff they don't bother saying, what they pretend they are. If I could tweak all the knobs and generate a personalized feed of news that is actually useful and consumable, All right, make that a product for me, Google.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
But I don't want a podcast directory that is just full of AI-generated podcasts that are all essentially talking the same nonsense. Let's be honest. They say a few interesting things and they do go in a few interesting details. But a lot of it is analogies and generals that they just kind of agree with. Somebody will make an analogy and then somebody says, oh, yeah, that's exactly right.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
And it's like, well, that's barely right. That's what a lot of it is, and it's not very high-quality content, so I can't imagine any of it's going to pull down a lot of views. What I can imagine is it is going to soak up a lot of dynamic ads, and I can also imagine it's going to make browsing podcast directories a lot more cluttered, and there's already a lot of noise in there.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
So that I'm not super thrilled about. But, you know, if I could actually have a tool like this that I could curate and generate and it was decent to listen to and they made interesting, insightful points. Well, that would be great, but I don't think that's possible with an LLM because the LLM has to go off of stuff that it already knows.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
And that's where the human component is always going to come in, is the original analysis with experience and context and understanding and a little bit of opinion in there sometimes. And that's going to be the unique content that the LLMs will then consume. But somebody has to be out there ahead of that generating the unique stuff that the machine is going to eat up and spit back out.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Okay. Well, okay. So since you brought it up, before we move on, do you think they're going to kill it and just like maybe roll some small aspect of it into another?
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Yeah, though supposedly it's using Gemini for some of the analysis on the back end, but they're not really branding it like that if it's true.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
I will continue to play with it because where I would find it useful and have played with just briefly and it's not useful enough yet is I gave it like 10 sources on a topic. And it was PDFs and it was YouTube videos and it was multiple YouTube videos and multiple articles. Oh, I did this for – I also did this for the Sonos app drama. I just wanted to see what its take was.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
And your buddy Paul Theriot has, like, the chronicle of all of the Sonos app drama. From, like, you know, Sonos has a new app to, like, everything, to the CEO apology, all of it. So I fed it all of Theriot's coverage. I fed it some YouTuber coverage. And I fed it some sort of, like, breakdown of the problems that somebody had in a PDF. And I had it generate me a podcast about the Sonos app. Sonos.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Sorry, too many Sonos. The Sonos stuff. And it was decent. It was pretty good. And again, if I could go in there and have it tuned a little bit, like maybe that'd be a way for me to take a bunch of research and distill it down and listen to it while I'm driving and maybe inform my coverage. But not yet. It's not there. And it doesn't seem like that's the direction they're going.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
But that's the kind of tooling if it was a tool that I could use. That I would take advantage of. And I think a lot of us could. You know, something comes out. You could throw a new version of Python comes out. You want to know what it does? You throw the release notes in there and it makes a podcast for you about it just for you.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
If it could actually get to the right stuff and they could make it entertaining, probably not. But maybe.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
All right. We got some business to get to this week. Buckle up, Mr. Dominick, because we have some boosts. And Maximilian comes in as our baller this week with 1,100,000 sets. Hey, Richard! And he writes, Maximilian writes, Jupiter Party member here, love all the shows, but Coder is my favorite. I'm boosting in to support Python as the official language of the Coder Radio program.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Get out of here. But yeah, you got to take that portable battery unit you've got and make sure you get it charged up and don't get it wet. Oh, yeah. It's charged up. It's off the ground. Good. There we go. Wow. So we are doing a double this week as we record just to kind of have buffer, just a case and things like that.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
The snakes have done it. That's a massive baller boost by Maximilian. And as is tradition, as a thank you, we have a new song to celebrate the official language of the Coder Radio program.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
There you have it. The snakes are in charge. Python is the official language of the Coder Radio program. Thank you to Maximilian. You are our baller this week. He also supports us as a Jupiter Party member, too, so he's just a great guy.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
That's pretty great. Adversary 17, or Adversary 17, your choice comes in with 91,442 sats, which is no shabby amount either. I hoard that which all kind covet. He writes, I'm emptying my fountain because we have Clippy that sort of works already. Install the Rust toolchain, and you've got Clippy. What is he referring to? Do you have... Clippy with the Rust toolchain.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Did we talk about doing some Googling really quick to see if I can? We have notes.jupiterbroadcasting.com, by the way. I don't see about that. Yeah, but follow up. Let me know. I appreciate the boost. That's also a fantastic boost. Hybrid sarcasm is also a baller this week. With 100,000 sats. What hurricane? Thanks, Mike, for sacrificing your prep time for us listeners. We don't deserve you.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
He sent that in this morning as a thank you. No problem. He loves the listeners. He loves the listeners. We stay here for the people. Thank you for the mega boosts, adversaries, Maximilian and Hybrid. We really appreciate it. We appreciate all the boosts, but those are some really great ones. BHH32 is back with the boosts, and he comes in with 20,000 sets. Boost! It's a nice one.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
He says, I realize a lot of things are Electron or web apps. Yeah. That is accurate. However, I believe, and I'm most likely wrong, that native applications are better because of the native integration that can happen. The reason things are currently web apps or Electron is because that's what we've allowed. There is the demand for cross-platform, and we didn't have anything else at the moment.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
So we will not be live next week, but there's so much to get into and we want to try to get to it as fast as we can this week. Because Google has been ordered to support alternative app stores and payment methods in the Play Store. Payment methods as well. This is that lawsuit with Epic Games. Yesterday as we record, so a couple days ago as you were listening to this, a U.S.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
However, with the rise of Rust, Go, and other languages, all we have to do is put specific config calls in the code and then compile once or twice if you're going to ARM. I create it, and I am still working on a tail-scale GUI applet for Cosmic written in libcosmic. However, theoretically, it would run on macOS or Windows, just minus the panel integration.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
I did end up creating a couple of tutorials and posting them on my website if anyone is interested. His website is bhh32.com. It's the first blog I've ever written on, I've ever posted to my site. Oh, I guess he's had the blog. This is the first one he's ever written. I enjoy it, so I hope you all enjoy it as much as I enjoyed writing it. Thank you, BHH. Yeah, it's super cool. Appreciate that.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
I do, man. I am all up in that Tailscale biz. They really should sponsor the show more. Tailscale, if you're out there, come on in. We like you because I have all my infra on Tailscale. Tomato comes in with 7,222 sats. Put some macaroni and cheese on there, too.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Regarding the California AI bill, in that clip, Newsom almost sounded like he was going to push for regulation for the use of AI as a tool for specific purposes. Then he went off the rails, got drunk, and watched The Terminator again. Ha, ha, ha. You know, there's actually a story out there that Biden decided that he wanted to take he wanted to write his AI executive order after watching Top Gear.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Oh, God. A new Top Gear movie. Go look it up. It's a real story. I think it's a cover story, but it's it's out there.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
It's crazy, right? Tomatoes says, I do think there's a big need for AI regulation, but completely differently. Anywhere that a human judgment is needed, anywhere that logic behind a decision is needed to be reviewed, AI is a poor tool. There will technically be a reason for its decision, but not in a way that makes sense to people.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
That ought to be explicitly forbidden in certain sensitive areas like policing, courts, insurance adjustments, etc. Ah, interesting. Yeah. I've never really thought about specific industries like don't use AI to do these tasks. That's interesting. It says he's glad you made it through the hurricane. All right. Don't forget that the reason Huawei stops shipping Android updates is because the U.S.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
government forced them to. God forbid a Chinese company have military contracts, unlike literally every U.S. tech company. Huawei does seem to have some cool devices. I sometimes have some FOMO. They do have a fun name, Huawei. Huawei. Thank you very much, Tomato. It was good to hear from you. VT52 comes in with a Jar Jar Boost 5,000 cents. You're so boost! Dtrace, maybe it is eBPF after all.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
He says, the project is a work in progress and allows existing... Oh, yeah, okay, eBPF for Windows. They're working on eBPF for Windows and moving some of the eBPF tool chains and APIs from Million Linux ecosystem to run on top of Windows. Man, how good is Microsoft taking the best bits of Linux and just grafting it on top of that NT kernel, right? They're just so good at that. Wow.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
They're going to make an API compatibility later with eBPF Linux kernel apps. That's interesting. Look at WSL Go. Spectris comes in with Rodex. I have the second gen AirPod Pros. Conversation awareness is great. Walking the dog, I can stop to talk to the neighbors anytime. No grabbing my ear to pause or pull them out. Okay, so I was wondering about that.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Don't people still think it's weird that you have them in when you're talking to them? Because I've noticed two types of people in the world. Those who will just start talking to you. I had a guy scare the crap out of me. Just came, walked up behind me, and I had silence mode on because there's people out doing yard work. And he starts talking to me, scared the crap out of me.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
judge decided that Google Play has to, or the Google Play Store is an illegal monopoly. And Google has been ordered to make multiple changes as a result. Google is going to need to allow Android users to download rival app stores like the Epic Game Store from within Google Play.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
And then I have other people who won't talk to me. And they'll point to the ear. You got your AirPods in? Did you take your AirPods out? And they won't talk to you. So I feel like this conversational awareness feature is good, but it doesn't solve like the social stuff. I don't know. I think I'm going to pick something up that is conversational awareness though and try it out.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Did you ever end up getting – you did get a new set of AirPods.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Oh, yeah. The one pod is my kind of compromise. But then I worry that I'm like wrecking the battery of the one pod.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
All you got to do is, first of all, you get your $300 AirPods. And then, of course, you got to have your $1,200 phone that you pair it to. And then you get yourself a $600 watch. And then what you can do is raise your wrist and tap your fingers to pause the audio. Problem solved.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Something like that, yeah. All right. That wraps up the Boost segment for this week. We had some streamers out there, 17 of you. Altogether, while you were listening and streaming those stats, you sent in 20,000. 477 sats. Thank you very much, our sat streamers. We see you and appreciate you.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Combined with our boosters, and of course we had some nice baller boosts this week, we stacked an incredible 1,146,663 sats. You're so much better. Thank you very much, everybody. We really appreciate that. If you'd like to get in on the fun, you just need a new podcast app and some stats. We'll have links in the show notes for that to make it really easy. Fountain.fm is my go-to.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Cast-O-Matic's great on iOS. Podcast Guru, Guru, lots of them over at podcastapps.com. And, of course, our members out there supporting us with their autopilot support at coder.show slash membership. Now, we won't have any boosts next week because it is going to be a prerecord, but do send them in because then it'll become clear why soon.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Plus, it's required to allow third-party app stores to distribute Google Play apps unless the developers opt out of providing their apps through alternative app stores. Google can no longer require developers to use Google Play Billing.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
I'm looking for examples of companies that have done dev relations well. So boost in if you know of a good example or... A bad one. I'm looking for those two of companies that have good or bad dev relations, either departments or attempts, schemes, whatever it might be. And my reasoning will become clear soon. Mr. Dominic, is there anywhere you want to send the good people?
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
This is Coda Radio, episode 590, recorded on October 8th, 2024. Hey friend, welcome in to Jupiter Broadcasting's weekly talk show, taking a pragmatic look at the art and the business, the software development, and the world of technology. My name is Chris, and joining us from a rather stormy location, it's our host, Mr. Dominic. Hello, Mike. Yar, mount your gator and get your jaeger.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
The pod has got an X handle, at Coder Radio Show, which is probably just useful for when we're going live, I guess, because we don't... I don't know. I don't know. Man, it's you. I don't know how you do your social media, but if you want to do it, at Coder Radio Show, okay? Just fine. There you know. You have it now. Links to what we talked about today. Yeah, we got those.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
See, it's a simple formula. It's Coder.show slash... All right, that's fine. You got it. Contact forms over there, RSS feeds over there as well, and also the whole back catalog. And we'd love to have you join us. We won't be live next week, but when we are live, we put it in a podcasting 2.0 app or we have it at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Thanks so much for joining us on this week's episode of the Coder Radio Program, and we'll see you right back here next week.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Also, developers will also be able to link to alternative installation options in their apps and will also have the ability to let customers know about other ways to make purchases outside of Google's ecosystem. And Google is now prohibited from offering carriers and device makers financial incentives to preinstall the Play Store. Now, the revenue stream gone.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
But Google can charge for, quote, reasonable measures. to implement and preserve user safety and security related to apps and app stores downloaded through Google Play.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Google has to keep these changes in place for three years, and it begins on November 1st, 2024.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
It's like a stay, maybe it's called. It's an appeal stay. It's a stay, yeah. Yeah, Google, they say they confirmed they will appeal it. Shocker. Plans to ask the court to just hold on while they try to sort all this out. You know, Google tries to make the point. This is a quote from their blog. Android is open, and Google Play is not the only way to get apps.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
The decision fails to take into account that Android is an open platform, and developers have always had many options in how to distribute their apps. In fact... and I'm sure they're probably talking about outside the States. Most Android devices come preloaded with two or more app stores right out of the box.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Developers have other options too, such as offering their apps directly to users from their website. As long as they have sideloading turned on. So they're coming in hot saying, you know, this is the whole thing's bogus. It's out. It's already open enough. People can sideload apps, yada, yada, yada, yada. And that's going to be, I think their core argument. And I will say,
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
It is why I switched to a Pixel, the App Store stuff, because I could sideload another App Store. This one is not really even an App Store. It's called Obtanium. And it's a front end to just pull APKs off of GitHub and GitLab and other sources. And it just manages the updates for you. And there is no App Store. It's not even using F-Droid.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
It's time for Milton. Oh, God. I guess that's the spirit you have to have down there. I mean, you got to get rich and get a second home or something, you know?
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
And if I'm going to use this phone for serious things like really private family communications or finance, I don't know, man. I got to be able to get to the file system. I got to be able to install my own apps. I don't even want some of these apps to go through Apple or Google. That's interesting. Yeah.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Yeah, to me, they're more of a risk than they are an asset because there's a core set of apps. I've vetted the projects or the applications myself. I know I'm not typical, but I'm just saying the openness of the Android platform as it stands today has been enough for me to use. I have F-Droid, Play, and I have Obtanium. And I have three app stores on one device, and it all works really well.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
I don't know. Maybe Google kind of has a point here. Maybe I don't need to be able to install F-Droid from the Play Store. I know it would make it a lot better for these projects. It's way better for them, obviously. And maybe it avoids people getting scam apps more.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Get some good VC money, get a crazy AI idea going, and just get to a cabin somewhere out of there when these storms come rolling in.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Yeah, I think your take is – I think your take is spot on. Like some of this is going to definitely get loosened up. Some of the – because Google can argue that some of this is a burden on them, that it's going to cost them more than that they're ever going to be able to fairly charge developers, et cetera. So they're going to be able to argue that point as well. But I do think you're right.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Some of these things are going to stick. What I find kind of interesting is how quick – November 1st, that's – as far as – At the speed of the courts, that's not a lot of time.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Google's lawyers might be working through the holiday. Coming up. I don't know. Part of me would love to see it. I kind of wish it could happen, all of it. Because I do think these devices are people's primary computing devices for a lot of folks. Oh, yeah. And it would make it more like an actual computer.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Because if you get a phone, say you go buy a new phone or somebody gifts you a phone, you get it, it's going to have the Play Store on there. And you're not necessarily going to know how to sideload applications, etc., but... Is it so bad if Epic wants to add their own store? I'm not so sure. Maybe, maybe not. Probably all depends on implementation.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
You know, you move here, we'll have one of our 100-year earthquakes, though.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Or some sort of – like you can buy the M-Gain currency for – I don't know, you know, like something, right?
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Yeah. Do you think it would create a race to the bottom, like Gigatex will say in the live chat? Like if you have more app stores, does that put somehow more downward pressure on app prices and make it,
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
I have no doubt about that. Maybe, like you say, Fortnite players or some other popular application or game. Yeah. They all want their own little fiefdoms, right? They all want their own little kingdoms. And once you become a big enough app developer or whatever, it's not good enough to use the platform store. You've got to have your own ecosystem.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
I don't know. We'll see. I'll keep an eye on it and see if there's any updates and we'll cover it in the show. Coder.show slash membership. The Coder Radio program has been listener-supported for over a year now, and we're incredibly grateful for that. We give you an ad-free version of the show as a thank you as well as the Coderly, which there's quite a few of them now.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
So if you've just become a member, there's a back catalog you can download directly. You get your own private RSS feed, and you get a special edition of the show just for you. Then, of course, we also have our boosters who like to just do it at their own accord, at their own schedule, at their own amount, as they see fit.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
And as a thank you, we read their messages that are above 2,000 sats on the show each episode, which always turns out some great organic content that we never planned on, some of the best conversations. So I'm just really grateful for your support, and if you enjoy the Coder Radio program, I hope you consider doing it. That's coder.show slash membership, or you can boost with a new podcast app.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
You can find those at podcastapps.com. So last week, we played a clip of that Google Deep Dive podcast where it had an existential crisis when it revealed it was an AI. That thing has gone viral in the last week. And the Wall Street Journal has – well, it's kind of a puff piece overall. But there's a few notable tidbits in here that I wanted to pull out for you.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
So this Notebook LM thing has been around for a while now. But the audio feature – That came out a little bit more recently, I think in August, where it generates the podcast. And I was just experimenting with it this morning. They've made tweaks and updates to it this morning and how it works.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
But the thing that I find kind of interesting about this is, well, this is really Google's first viral AI hit since ChatGPT has been a thing for a couple of years. And this is also from like a little Skunk Works Google Labs division that that kind of has these one-off projects where they kind of have their own philosophy that doesn't necessarily jive with the rest of Google.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Yeah, I mean, and now Milton's on its way to Florida as we record. Should never have taken a stapler. Is that looking like it's going to be in – are you in the path of that? Direct it. Yeah, it's a pretty – yeah, that's what I was thinking.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Yeah, they'll muck it up real good, right? So I guess it's kind of fascinating. So the small lean mean team inside Google that was able to no doubt leverage all of the tooling and voice work and all of that Gemini work that's been done by the rest of the Google company. But this little strike group created this notebook LM and then this podcasting aspect was another small team.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
And they were just trying to come up with ways to make it useful. And that's how they came on this. They said it was also counterintuitive, but to make it sound more natural, they had to kind of make them rougher, as they put it. They said, quote, if you have two perfect scripts talking to each other in complete sentences, nobody would listen to it. It would just sound too robotic.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Instead, they had to make them speak like actual people and put like and um and you know. Sometimes they pause or even stammer a little bit. They reinforce each other's points with totally and oh, 100 percent. And yeah, which is sometimes really weird. But, you know, they try to make it conversational. And you're not going to believe this.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
But, of course, there's already a group of folks that are quite worked up about this. They're concerned that it's going to collapse the podcast industry because essentially going to dump a bunch of.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
podcasts onto the market and then they're going to get you know dynamic ads which are then going to just completely dump this rate of ads that remain um and so listen notes has been tracking how many ai podcasts that are on the market now and this is according to their list that they have on github there are now 282 ai generated podcasts most of them hosted on anchor
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Most of them, not all, but most of them generated by this Google Notebook LLM deep dive tool. And they've put them out. They've got full branding. Some of them have sponsorships. They've got RSS feeds. Most of them, because I mean, I looked at like probably a dozen. I listened to like two. Not one of them that I reviewed disclosed that it was an AI podcast.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Nowhere in there does it say this is an auto-generated show. It makes it – in fact, a lot of them present themselves as experts going in deep or they'll say something like – they'll kind of work in deep dive somehow somewhere in there. But they'll never admit to being – well, the ones I looked at don't admit to being an automatically generated podcast. Or even like Notebook LM. And it's wild.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
And they sound decent enough that they can kind of trick you, I think, if you didn't know this was a thing in the market. And here we are. Here we are like a few weeks after this thing has become an official tool. There's already almost 300 podcasts. I don't know, man. To me, it's just, I don't know, it's probably just a flash in the pan. I mean, these things aren't really good enough yet.
Coder Radio
590: Google’s Loss is Our Win
Corporate branded podcasts that are auto generated. Yes. Yeah.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
This is Coder Radio, episode 586, recorded on September 3rd, 2024. Hey friend, welcome in to Jupiter Broadcasting's weekly talk show. Taking a pragmatic look at the art and the business of software development and the world of technology. My name is host and hopefully, my name is Chris, and hopefully our host is in much better shape than me. It's Mr. Dominic. Hey Mike. Hey Chris, how's it you?
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
And if something goes wrong, you've got a clone. You can get that deployed. You can revert back to that. You could set it up for testing. Like, you can do more than just use it for testing. You could use it for recovery. I mean, you could recreate the environment.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Yeah, that's really slick, too. You're basically solving problems once and then just making small tweaks. And it's like, OK, here's your particular environment. Go for it. Yeah, you can have this build. Go for it. That's cool.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Yeah, and if it gets into the meat a little bit, you know, there's some of that water exchange happening. You got yourself a real nice flavor. And then, you know, depending on how you grill it, you kind of, you know, get kind of a bark.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Before VS Code, yeah. The show is very old. Yeah. So the funny thing is, is Docker was just like, oh, that's just the thing we created using some of these primitives so that way we could deliver the service. And I think, you know, that might, looking back at that history, might explain why we've never seen, like, a super sound monetization strategy for the Docker company.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Yeah, this is great. So we'll put a link in the show notes, coder.show slash 586, to Mr. Dominic's blog where he also gives you some examples and, you know, wrote up all the deets a little bit extra there. This feels like you got, like yourself, like something you could use for years. You could use, you know, this is great. I love that kind of stuff.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
That's sad, isn't it? You know, I was really hopeful for that project. Yeah. So Docker OS 10 allowed you to run Mac OS inside a Docker container. And I think it's probably using virtualization somehow in there.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
And a couple of days ago and shocker here, they got DMCA, no doubt by Apple. There is another project out there called just Mac OS inside a container like that. I'm sure they'll get DMCA. Some folks on the GitHub have have. taken the scripts and then they're just supplying their own ISOs somehow. I don't know where you get ISOs of Apple's installers, but they do get them.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Oh, okay. And so then if you supply your own ISO, you can still use the Docker OS X container. But... Doesn't that show you, Mike, just how freaking far containers have come that you can run entire operating systems? Basically, you're running VMware software inside a container, which is then, yeah. Yeah, it makes sense.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
It's the religion of containers. Well, I saw an interesting study go by that I wanted to share with you. It's from Upwork, and they interviewed 2,500 global C-suite executives and full-time employees and freelancers. And they have a couple of interesting tidbits. The study finds that 77% of employees report that the new AI tools have actually increased their workload.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
that there's a disconnect between the expectations of managers once they give them these tools and the experiences employees are having using the tools. In addition to all of this, AI adoption is causing burnout among 71% of full-time employees that now feel overworked. However, freelancers, contract employees, seem to be on average surpassing full-time employees in productivity.
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And when interviewed, the C-suite executives said that they plan to leverage freelancers more and staff less. The findings show that 80% of leaders who leverage freelance talent say it's, quote, essential to their business. And 38% of leaders who don't already leverage talent pools outside the business will in the coming year. So here's a couple of things I took away from this.
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Managers are giving staff AI tools. 77% of those surveyed said that they just made them feel more overworked and got less done. And the way the executives are responding is by leveraging contractor work more instead of improving the worker situation. Organizations seem to be, on average that were surveyed, really struggling to maximize AA's productivity potential.
Coder Radio
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It seems like the freelancers come into with better skill sets. They already know how to use these tools a little bit more. And employees likely need more specific training to be able to actually use this stuff effectively. 77% though seems like a pretty big number of people who report increased workload due to AI tools.
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Yeah, and 71% of those then said it's contributing to their burnout factor. And then the big note, almost universally across the companies, is using more and more contractors and expecting less from salaried staff. That doesn't seem good to me. That seems, I mean, good for guys like you and I who exist in that world, but bad for staff?
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And yet I would agree the contractors do tend to be able to get a lot more done because they're focused on one thing. I mean, there's always downsides, but, you know, the contract companies, they're experts at this thing.
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They don't have to deal with all of the other things like doing one on one with your manager and doing employee reviews and making sure that you've gone in and done all your KPIs. Like they don't have to worry about the same things that a staffer does. So they can just work. And then also it behooves them to be more competitive with these tools.
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So a contractor is going to know how to get the most out of something like Copilot or how to get the most out of using an LLM that you train against your data.
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And a contractor is going to be the one that spends time with the Red Hat tooling to create your own LLMs for enterprises because they have the motivation, they have the opportunity by working with multiple different clients that have different demands, whereas a staffer is going to be very heads down, focused on their task. They don't necessarily have the bandwidth
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To go out there and experiment with all this different stuff. So it seems to me like the data probably does bear out to be true, but that's kind of dark.
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Right. Yeah. Yeah. The incentive structures. I don't I don't know. This is this is also this is all still so new. I think part of what I also take from it is these tools don't work as well as they claim to. And so you give them to employees and they end up spending more time futzing with the tool than they do getting the work done. I think that's probably entirely possible.
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I'd like to know what you think. I actually haven't heard from very many people in the audience. So if you work somewhere that is experimenting with any of these, Gemini, Copilot, any of these, if maybe your company subscribes to OpenAI, boost in and tell us how you're using it or if it hasn't been working. I would like some field reports here.
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Or if you've maybe proposed it and your company shot it down. Let's get some, let's get some like boots on the ground reports, please. Four score and seven boosts to go. All right, now brace yourself because Colorado Coder Colin came in with 400,500 sats. There it is. Hey! This is, like, basically his first boost ever, too. Coming in hot. So, absolutely amazing.
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He took the long journey to get it set up and came in with an incredible boost. Here's what he says. Long-time listener, first-time booster. R.O.P. R is the first programming language I learned as I studied statistics at university. Well, Eric's going to be delighted to do that. More importantly, the R is in coder and in radio. So it really ought to be the official language of the show.
Coder Radio
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We had to go for like 40 minutes. Amazing. All right. Because I was traveling, I did not have a chance to peek at this beforehand. This was a cold read, so I don't have an R song, but I'm going to have to get one, obviously.
Coder Radio
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Yes, I'll get one. That is amazing. Colorado Coder, Colin, thank you very much for that fantastic boost. Thank you for listening for so long. I'd love to hear what you're doing now, and roughly when you did start listening, if you'd ever want to do a follow-up boost, of course. I would understand if it's not 400,000 sats. All right, well, how do you feel about R as the official language?
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That's good. Oh, wow. Thank you for the boost. Ty Alaskan comes in with 50,000 sats. I hoard that which your kind covet. He says, I can't believe my cheeky official language boost triggered such a crazy bidding war.
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That's the thing I love about the boost is there's these just organic community things. Anybody know the total amount we raised for the show with this? I'm proud that my fellow gophers backed me up. I'm surprised the crab people didn't make any moves. Well, they tried. They tried. They did try. The gophers... But, you know, the R guys, they're hardcore.
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Also, you know, like sometimes, you know, especially when it comes to spouses, maybe their parents growing up didn't know how to make ribs. So their idea of what ribs could be is kind of misplaced. You know, I've had that experience. Yeah. You know, it's our it's somebody's got to do it. It's our burden, Mike. It's our burden to carry. But somebody has got to bring these people into the light.
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Yeah, he's serious about it. Absolutely. It's a lot of work. Bite Bandit also comes in with 50,000 sats. I hoard that which all kind covet.
Coder Radio
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Bite Bandit writes, love the show. The conversation about whether breaking the law should auto bill you reminds me of a story I heard on Darknet Diaries. Uh-oh. about a hacker from Scandinavia country that, quote, decided not to go to jail with no real repercussions. The way they look at it is something like it's the police's job to put you in jail and keep you there.
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So if you decide not to go, that's a failing on them. It's not your responsibility to turn yourself in just to avoid additional severe punishment. Well, I think it is, but, you know, I love the spirit of it.
Coder Radio
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It might be better fate, to tell you the truth. Although, maybe I should... Maybe I should move to Scandinavia country because I love the spirit of it.
Coder Radio
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They don't say it, but I believe the largest demographic of cannabis consumer in Washington State where it is legal recreationally is probably – women in their forties to their late sixties.
Coder Radio
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Yeah. It's, and it's a, it's a transition and I'm not being sexist or anything. This is just, I've, I've had a conversation with enough of the ladies in my family and the extended family and their friends. I've just heard these cause this is, this has been years now here in Washington. Um, It's – they view it as a healthier alternative to wine and booze.
Coder Radio
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Yeah, well, they're all on Ozempic too, so they don't want to be drinking wine anymore. It's true, though. There's a big thing around here. You know, it's an interesting choice, but OK. Yeah. Anyway, so it's just fascinating. And yeah, the laws are so because then you cross the state border to Idaho and it's illegal. And if you have it in your car and you get pulled over, you're in big trouble.
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It's crazy. It's just so broken. But, you know, the Florida stuff is kind of becoming national news with the election and everything. Everybody's watching you guys. Oh, yeah.
Coder Radio
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C-dubs comes in with 33,333 sats. Put some macaroni and cheese on there, too. And using Boost CLI, too. The traders love the ball. Boost CLI is a hardcore way to go, so respect that. Yeah. Regarding the digital ID conversation, yes, it is convenient having your ID in your phone, but have you considered where it's going?
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I see services requiring digital signatures, starting with age verification, but then financial services, your social media, etc. It's better than uploading a picture of your ID or face, but the government will, of course, be watching.
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Yeah. So while you and I were, while you were grilling, I actually, while I was working, did have the smoker going for a bit. Ended up with a fantastic ham with a raspberry glaze. So, you know, a little multitasking there. Well, while we were doing that, leaked audio, somehow, somehow leaked audio of Amazon's cloud chief. He's, you know, the Amazon Web Services CEO, Matt Garman.
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Oh, man, it was rough. I had I had a real like moral like what do I do kind of quandary because I was flying to Toronto. You know, and it's like I'm going somewhere that longitudinally is, is that a word, is actually lower than me. So it doesn't even feel like I'm crossing a border because Washington is further north.
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And it just feels stupid that I had to like I had to completely dox myself to be able to cross the border. And I flew with Alaska and Alaska has partnered with Airside. And AirSight is an app that's dedicated to just fully KYC-ing you to every security agency and data broker in the world.
Coder Radio
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It has you scan your passport, you scan your ID, you do like a facial scan, you link it to your TSA, pre-check if you've got it, and then you link it to your Alaska flight specifically. And then Alaska...
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Connects to their API Alaska Airlines connects their API and verifies that you've done all of that and then supposedly although I don't know for sure it makes going through customs faster I don't know if that's true or not because I don't have global entry so I haven't gone that far I still have to stand in the pleb line for an hour but I didn't do it and I didn't do it and I didn't do it.
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And then I started hearing stories about people that just decided to not use the AirSight app, and they were just going to do it at customs like they normally do, and it taking so much longer. And I just, I gave in, and I... I mean, TSA's already got me, and Alaska Airlines has already got me. So I'm like, all right, now Airside's got me.
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But if you travel, especially if you travel internationally, you've already had to give in on this. Yeah. The state already has all my information for my driver's license. So... It doesn't really change the security game if I put it on a phone. But what C-dubs is pointing out is it starts to smooth that path. So pretty soon, like everything, you know, your passport. Now, where's your vaccine?
Coder Radio
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Like, say, if another pandemic comes up, you just throw your vaccine card on your phone. That'll get checked. No more paper vaccine cards. That's silly, right? We want to verify your social identity. We're going to put that on your phone. And, you know, you do a face ID or a thumbprint to verify that it's you. And then that... Service connects over an API and boom, you've logged in.
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Like, yeah, I think that's where it's going. And I hate it. This is why I've got me to go on about this. This is why I feel like we are in a moment of time where it's probably already too late. But if we're going to have a shot, it is right this very moment, something that is distributed for identity. And that's where Nostra comes in.
Coder Radio
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At the core of it, Nostra is a public key and a private key, just like PGP. and then it is a relay network to pass messages, notes, notes and other things, Nostr. And that is a C-shift in online identity because I have a private key, and I can use that private key to log into, quite literally now, thousands of Nostr applications with one identity. And if one service or site starts getting...
Coder Radio
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In S***tified, I just take my key and I move. And you know it's me because it's a public key verification process. I don't need any kind of proprietary application. I don't need a government-issued version of this. I don't need an Apple Wallet version of this. I just need my private key.
Coder Radio
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And there's applications like Albi that put a user interface in front of this, so I'm never actually moving my key around. I log into Albi like I log into everything else, and then Albi is handling the key stuff for me transparently. So as a user, I don't even know there's a public-private key system, or you could if you want to get technical with it. And I think that's what Noster is.
Coder Radio
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It is an open distributed web of trust that has the capability of also doing a Craigslist, or it has the capability of doing a Twitter clone. But it's at its core a public private key identity system. And that's why I'm encouraging people to just go play with it just to reserve their public private key tied to their identity so they have that in the future if this ever goes anywhere.
Coder Radio
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He shared his thoughts on an internal fireside chat held in June. So this just came out. And according to Business Insider, in the audio, he tells employees that most developers, get ready for this one, Mike, could stop coding as soon as AI takes over. Never heard this one before, but check out his timeline. He says, quote,
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And Fountain FM is probably the easiest way to do that because it'll just walk you through a wizard of creating a Nostra identification just when you try out the Fountain app. And otherwise, it's all going to be corporate controlled Apple, Google, Microsoft or state issued IDs that get loaded onto our phones. That's where this goes. How about that for an answer?
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There's a small window of time. That's why I even bother getting into it. Because if people don't care and give a crap, then it is going to get solved by the big tech companies and government.
Coder Radio
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You know, people could have cared a little bit more. We could have taken action.
Coder Radio
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Like it's the 90s. Oh, God, Mike. You know, I just I had this moment. We have a listener. Uh, he listens to this. I hope he's doing okay. We haven't heard from him. Mike down. Um, he's Mike listener, Mike, or I think he boosted his like Mike down mouse. Um, but, uh, he took us up in, he took us up in his Cessna over Denver. It was beautiful, but he broke me. It's been years now and he broke me.
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I broke, and I hold him personally responsible for it because he showed me, uh, That there are two worlds, that there is this world called private flight where you show up at what feels like a large country club and you walk in a lobby where they have snacks and coffee and goodies and chairs. And then somebody behind the desk tells you when the plane's ready.
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And then you walk down the hallway out on the tarmac and walk onto your plane. And that's the airport process. You just park your car in a parking lot like a human being. You walk into something that looks like a country club, a little bit noisier. You lounge until, you know, the help's got your stuff ready. And then you go get in your plane. And then when you land, it's the same thing.
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There's no security line. There's no check. He broke me. He broke me forever. Every time I fly a commercial, I die a little bit.
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If you go forward 24 months from now, or some amount of time, I can't say exactly where it is, it is possible that most developers are not coding. Coding is just kind of like the language that we talk to computers. It's not necessarily the skill in and of itself. The skill in and of itself, like how do I innovate? How do I build something that's interesting for my end users to use?
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Mr. Nick86 sent us in 10,000 sats across two boosts, and he writes, Hey, tech family. I've been a longtime listener since the land days. Thank you for boosting in. This might be your first, so I'm going to give you that. I'm curious to hear your take on this topic.
Coder Radio
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Speaking with a new coworker the other day, I was explaining how the iPhone and iOS would be vastly different if Steve Jobs hadn't passed away. Tim Apple has grown the business, but the company has lost its way. They're no longer the pirates. Go watch the 2007 iPhone introduction. The App Store wasn't a thing until iOS 2. Before then, it was web apps running AJAX, the only way to get content.
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So here's my question. If jobs didn't pass, what would Apple look like now? Jobs fought against old technologies like Flash and essentially killed it single-handedly. So would we have more progressive web apps? For me, I think two killer technologies I've always wanted on my iPhone that would be robust support for progressive web apps, and I'd love convergence.
Coder Radio
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Having one device which can transform from an iPhone to a personal computer, all based on a dock, would be amazing. Game-changing. Too bad Tim Apple won't ever do either because revenue.
Coder Radio
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Yeah, and remember in his keynote introducing the iPhone 2, he talks about how great web apps are on the iPhone. They were always going to have to capture more revenue, right?
Coder Radio
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I would say, and also when you talk about pricing and how Tim Apple always goes after revenue. I mean, it was the upgrade prices for RAM and hard drives were even more of a ripoff in the Jobs era. Yeah. All that stuff. And they did proprietary monitors, so that way you could only buy expensive Apple monitors.
Coder Radio
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And it was neat because the cord would carry data, power, and video signal. So that was cool, but you had to only buy that stuff. I keep making this mistake. I do think, though, there's a nugget of truth to what Nick is saying here. And that is... Jobs was the ultimate product guy. He truly, truly understood that you needed to press a little bit harder. And, you know, I'll give you an example.
Coder Radio
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The Tim Cook class at Apple before the iPhone was pushing hard internally for the iPhone to be plastic. Horrible plan. And Jobs hated it. He says, it just doesn't feel good. It needs to be glass. And he's right. The glass stuff, the glass and metal, it feels really good in the hand.
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Being a developer in 2025 may be different than what it was in 2020.
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And they're slow. You know, it takes Apple a long time to design alternatives. The new keyboard on the current generation of MacBooks is great, but it took them too long to get there. But you know what keyboard was also great?
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Yeah. Yeah, very much so. Very much so. Although the part that he kind of leaned in on was developers could just stop learning to code maybe as soon as 24 months.
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Also, you know, they do seem to have, although I think they're a little out of touch with the consumer, I think their core management team that we see a lot in events is good. You know, like Federici.
Coder Radio
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But Tim Cook has been a master at keeping these long-term... executives around Bloomberg. I think it's Bloomberg just had a piece this week that talks about how Tim has done this strategy where when they're ready to retire, He'll put them kind of like in charge of just one thing with maybe one direct report that they can work at at like 40 percent capacity.
Coder Radio
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Like a fellow position where they're kind of on board. They attend some meetings. They give some input. And then, you know, Apple gets to claim we're still getting advised by Phil Schiller or whatever. Phil Schill.
Coder Radio
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Yeah. And I've also wondered too if as Apple became this everyday consumer brand where it's just – it's almost an agilist to a smartphone. iPhone is, um, geez, I'm losing it. I think maybe you needed a different kind of leadership. You needed a Tim Cook to steady some of that once it became something that just everyday people depended on, right?
Coder Radio
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Jobs was great for a company where the consumers were computer nerds and computer fans, and they love tech events and they love keynotes, right? But that's not who's buying iPhones anymore. And maybe it needs a different type of leader for that customer. And we're just not those customers.
Coder Radio
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He's lucky in a way he checked out when he did, you know, because he would not be able to... I mean, current Apple is very much, you know...
Coder Radio
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Interesting, but great question in a way. Got us going. Thank you very much. Appreciate that, 86, and hope to hear from you again. JSE comes in with a Spaceballs boost, 12,345 sats. So the culmination is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. He says, keep up the good work. Thank you, JSE. Appreciate that. Vamax comes in with a Jar Jar boost, 5,000 sats. Use a boost.
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He says, I don't think there needs to be a second step for GitHub to have an issue after their database health checks failed. If I understood Chris's theory correctly, because Kubernetes and similar systems are stateless, if something fails, it's configured health or startup check. It may not exist. Nothing can or will be routed to it.
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Yeah, we were, I think, remember when you and I were doing the last episode, because this was a couple weeks ago because of the travel, GitHub was having outages. And, man, does that screw up my day. Some of the stuff I use to prepare the show sometimes requires GitHub Actions. Nix uses Git to some of the stuff I use on Nix uses Git. So it's just like it messes my whole day up now in GitHub.
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And I'm not even a developer. I'm almost a DevOps guy now. Oh, sorry. I just got sick. Savage. BitCryptic comes in with a row of ducks. 2,222 sats. I'm loving the JB collection. It shows great work, guys. Your comments around small language models and domain expertise got me thinking. Interesting. That could be cool. I also think it'd be cool just to...
Coder Radio
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Like I can become a domain expert on something for a solid minute, you know, really for like a couple of weeks. But then as I move on to the next thing, I really depend on my notes to remember a lot of the details.
Coder Radio
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And instead of taking notes, wouldn't it be interesting or if I could take notes and that would train an LLM and then I could have an LLM of all the things I've ever researched for a show or for anything we're setting up or God, that could be great. But then I see he's taking the next step and say, now I want to make it publicly available.
Coder Radio
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And, you know, wouldn't it be something if we start seeing that? I just love this sort of like kind of cyberpunk world where there's all these LLMs out there that have been hyper specialized, like some one person's expertise. You know what? My mechanic that works on my RV should do this because once that guy retires and I think he's just days away from retirement.
Coder Radio
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You know, you know I travel and then I get sick. And then the brain doesn't work so good. And I always get the kind of sick that's like the nose and chest sick, so that way... Like, it's hard to do the show sick, you know? Yes. So I probably sound weird. I'm probably going to say dumb stuff. So I'm not accountable for anything I say today. Does that seem fair? That seems fair.
Coder Radio
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I don't know anybody that knows that knows what this guy knows. Nobody's no young guys are coming into that industry and no young guys are experts like this guy's an expert.
Coder Radio
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This guy knows how to take apart the suspension system and knows how to rebuild your cabinetry and replace flooring and fix slides and do roofing and know how to do electrical like the guys, the guys, a truck mechanic, an electrician, a carpenter. all these things in one and a solar installer, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And this is just so, so useful.
Coder Radio
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And once he's gone, that knowledge goes with him. It'd be great if we could have an LM where I could just ask questions. It's a great idea. A bit cryptic. Let us know how it goes. Bugdye Stormtrooper comes in with 7,042 sats. Uh, I heard a Gungan. There he is. Yeah, we, we, and we also, yeah, that's, he's throwing sats. Uh, what did you expect? I missed anyways.
Coder Radio
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I smuggled some bacon from the Death Star kitchen for you guys. It's a little stale because I don't know which pocket I hid it in. There he goes. Oh yeah, it turned out all right. That's not too bad, yeah. About the last quarterly being too negative. If I ever need a bad news delivered to me, the way you guys do it makes it not seem so bad. Oh, that's good.
Coder Radio
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One thought is I thought we were past this dumb about AI hype. I thought we were like into some sort of new echelon of AI hype. And we were way past the like all say a random crazy big number thing. And then the next executive says the next random crazy big number thing. And then the next, you know, and on and on. I thought we were past that.
Coder Radio
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We were worried about that last quarterly being a little bit of a downer. Hopefully, you know, we'll have a positive one soon. I think we're going to see a little dip in the market as we process rate cuts coming. And then hopefully by Christmas we'll have a little Santa rally. We'll see. I'm just trying to stay positive. I, of course, have no idea.
Coder Radio
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And they're boosting for the first time. Congratulations. Thank you for taking the work. Finally found time to get the whole thing set up. Keep up the work. Thank you. We're an audience-funded show, so I really appreciate you taking the time to actually do that. Love hearing from you.
Coder Radio
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If you want to tell us anything about your setup, too, like your daily driver or something like that, you're looking for an excuse to boost in, let us know. We always love just learning about all that kind of stuff. You know, we're nerds. Thank you for boosting in. Purple Dog comes in with a Jar Jar Boost, 5,000 sats. Use a boost.
Coder Radio
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The new Copilot Autofix you mentioned is part of the GitHub Advanced Security. I work for a small company of 12 devs. Here we go. Here's an in-the-field report already. Awesome. We pay $21 a user a month for GitHub Enterprise plus $36 a user a month for Copilot Enterprise and Advanced Security and was quoted an extra 45 user a month if you want the Advanced Security. Oh, my God.
Coder Radio
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Jesus. So $21 per user per month for GitHub Enterprise, $36 per user per month for Copilot Enterprise, and then you stack an additional $45 per user per month on that if you want this advanced security. Whoa. Yeah, that's... That's where they're hoping to make all the billions back. Right there. Yeah. Ooh, thank you for that in-the-field report, Purple Dog. I'd love to know how it's working.
Coder Radio
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And if anybody is getting their value out of that. Is that even happening? Yikes. DG at PTC comes in with a Jar Jar Boost. Use a boost! Putting up the guardrails and checkpoints for junior devs was another reason for DevOps. The traditional release manager used to manually merge and release, providing a check on incoming code.
Coder Radio
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But after Git opened the floodgates for safe and fast merges, the new barriers had to be built to stop junior devs from blowing up production. That sounds about right.
Coder Radio
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That definitely happened. The Bitvarian man comes in with a row of ducks, 2,222 sats. Guys, your soundboard is legendary. I tell my wife I have some bacon for her every now and then, and she doesn't even know what that means. Yeah, you gotta get a soundboard. You gotta get a soundboard.
Coder Radio
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Regarding inflation, don't forget that through innovation and efficiency gains, we ought to be paying less for goods over time. In Broken Money, Lynn Alden states that most developed countries have expanded money supply by about 6% to 7% annually. So if you assume we're missing out on 3% deflation annually, then add 3% inflation.
Coder Radio
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Apparently, we just hit the reset button on how we're doing our AI hype. So that's frustration number one. Second thing that crosses my mind is why are there no repercussions for saying this stupid stuff? Like we are we could we should if I would have known all these dumb claims were going to get made, I would have started keeping track. But they were also ludicrously stupid. I hadn't expected it.
Coder Radio
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You've got a good old 6% that they can't steal from us plebs via central banking. That they can steal from us. Beware of the grift, friends. Yeah, so inflation, you know, is a sneaky one. It's so insidious because the ad business has been dead, so we haven't been able to raise our rates. Revenue's down and the cost of business for everything is up at least 20%. It's just been a monster.
Coder Radio
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And long story short, I think we'll probably see inflation return in a year or so because the M2 money supply is already increasing for a couple of months. That means there's money liquidity being created and entering the system. When you increase the supply of money, You increase the supply of money going after goods.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Now, if you don't increase the amount of goods, you have more money going after fewer or the same amount of goods, which means they can raise prices or they will raise prices. But that'll be probably for a little while. I mean, it's going to take a while for all this to hit, but I don't think inflation is done. They're lowering rates before they've gotten inflation down to their 2% target.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
They're capitulating when the real rate of inflation probably isn't 3%. It's probably more like 5% or 6%. So we're getting cheaper money. And the money printer is already on. So loans and things like that will be cheaper for big corporations. Banks are already getting more money. So I think inflation probably returns.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
And if you want to know what the hell we're talking about, why it works like this, I agree. Go read Broken Money by Lynn Alden. Fantastic book. Thank you, everybody, who boosted in. Great boost batch there. We had 32 different people either stream sats or boost in. Thank you, everybody, who also just hit that stream button. We really appreciate it. And we stacked a very impressive 625,092 sats.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Nice. If you'd like to boost in and get on the fun, try out Fountain FM. 1.1 just came out, and it's a killer. Of course, Podverse and Castomatic and a bunch of other great apps are listed at podcastapps.com. You can also boost from the Podcast Index. Check one of those options out, support the show, or become a member at coder.show slash member.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Either way, we appreciate everybody that participates in the Value for Value. If you enjoy the show, want to keep it going, it's a great way to do it. And we'll have links in the show notes to make it easy for you. Now, before we run, we had to touch on this because it goes back to the very beginning of the show. After a long, weird path, Microsoft has donated Mono to the Wine Project.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
After 23 years. I mean, kind of interesting this is happening. You know, if you think back, Mike, Miguel de Caza created, well, he created the GNOME desktop. Then, you know, he created Ximarian. And then they created Ximian, which was a .NET-like platform. They were creating essentially a .NET clone. Then Ximian was acquired by Novell in 2003, right?
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
And now here we are, because eventually Microsoft ended up with it. It's a long story. And Microsoft is donating the Mono project to Wine, where they will now be the holders of the code base. Now, of course, Microsoft maintains a modern fork of the mono runtime in its .NET slash runtime repo. So they've been moving workloads to that for a while. That work is now complete.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
They don't use this mono code anymore. They're done with it. So they're giving the original mono tree now that they recommend everybody else use what they ship. So that's to be noted, but... I don't know. What's your reaction of this? What a crazy story Mono has been to end up here.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
It just hadn't fathomed it. I hadn't hadn't considered it because they're so dumb. But if I would have known, I would have made a list. So that way I could call these idiots out every month that it doesn't come true. Like, I want a clock or I want a meeting reminder, something that tells me on the date that this guy's prediction, 24 months from from June of 2024.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Yeah, and I wonder if the Wine project has any intentions, if they're just going to be the stewards of it, if they incorporate it somehow. Yeah. We'll see. It's just, I don't know, just all of a sudden, just one day it's an issue on their GitHub. By the way. We're moving all this to the Wine Project. Just like that. Just after all these years, just, oh, here's an update, quick update, by the way.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
We're done with this, and we're giving it to Wine. It's just so weird the way these things finally play out. And it was so deeply divisive in the Linux community. And my even willingness to talk about Mono was divisive and got attacked in the Linux Action Show. Oh, there was a lot of hate. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they came after Brian and I for being willing to talk positively about Mono for even a minute.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
It was wild. And now here we are. And nobody cares, I guess. But you know what I care about? Where people should go to find you throughout the week. You got anywhere you want to send them?
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Yeah. It's like hiring movers. Hire a professional to do it for you. That's right. Right? I'll tell you what. Hey, go find me on the Nosterverse place. If you go to chrislas.com, it'll take you to a primal page where you can get my key. You can follow me in apps. Check it out. It's good for you. I'm also on WeaponX, Chris LES.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Of course, you can reach out at coder.show slash contact, or you can send us a boost. Links to what we talked about today, that's at coder.show slash 586. And then if you want something else to listen to, a bunch of great shows over at jupiterbroadcasting.com. We just broke down some Rust drama in the Linux kernel, Linux unplugged, and then on self-hosted.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
I bet you we'll be talking about our new colo self-hosted infrastructure if you're curious about that. Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode of the Coder Radio Program. We'll see you right back here next week.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
And I want to hold him accountable because I am sick and tired of these unaccountable, rich as hell tech executives going around blowing smoke up every investor's crotch. And then it's the workers who then end up getting laid off when it doesn't work out. Somebody should be – they should be held accountable for this.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella recently speculated that easier access to AI technologies will create a billion new additional developers. I believe that. So the Amazon Web Services CEO says we won't need developers, and Satya says we're going to have a billion new developers.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
You're going to basically say, you're going to go, hey, create me a thing to keep track of this, and it's going to create you a horrible spreadsheet on the back end.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Yeah, and I also don't think it's going to bring a billion new developers. No, it's going to be somewhere in the middle. But speaking of AWS's CEO, I do like some of the more recent decisions. Now, AWS is supporting conditional rights. Yes.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
They say, using conditional rights, you can simplify how distributed applications with multiple clients concurrently update data in parallel across shared data sets. In other words...
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
You no longer have to do a bunch of client-side consensus to coordinate updates and hit the crap out of an object store before you can figure out what data needs to get uploaded versus what data doesn't need to get uploaded. So you're going to save yourself costs essentially, right?
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Which you could see when you have multiple clients or something like that. You could see how that happens for you.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
No, I worked until 3 a.m. So I started at about 8. So I started a little late. There's that. Geez. No wonder why I'm sick. But what about you? Did you enjoy your Labor Day?
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
We got some feedback this week that, well, it's a capitulation. The crab kind of capitulation where the gophers win. It's actually happened. I wanted to read this from Brian. He came in. It's hard, I would imagine, for him to admit this. He says... Although I fought in the booths for Russ to be the language of the Coder Radio program, I can no longer afford to go higher than the Gophers.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
So as a sign of good faith and respect for a hard-fought battle, I am sending you a song generated for the current champion. Also, Go is my second favorite language, so there you go. Not sure why the app downloads this as a video, though. Good luck.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Thank you, BHH32. There you go. Until somebody can beat 300,000 sats, go is the official language of the Coder Radio program. That's officially the go song. Go with the flow.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
I guess. I guess. That's also sort of what happened. Yeah. Oh, BHH, that is hilarious. And I appreciate the work you put into that. And you know what? Talk about being a real sport. Losing to the Gophers. The crabs impressed me today. It's time to check out Fountain.fm. Version 1.1 came out. They didn't ask me to do this. I want to give a shout out to our friends over at Fountain.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
This is a lightning powered value for value podcasting app that just keeps going from strength to strength. And this 1.1 update is massive. They're introducing Noster into the app. Now, if you haven't tried Fountain, you've been thinking about it. Or if you haven't tried Noster and you've been thinking about it, it's like peanut butter and jelly coming together or peanut butter and chocolate.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
I don't know your preference. Whatever. It's really handy because they give you a slick onboarding process to get started in Noster. Now your fountain identity is a Noster identity and it can move between all the different Noster applications. There's hundreds of them now, including hopefully one day other podcasting So you're no longer creating like a fountain account.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
You're creating an identity that is yours. They just help you do that. Or you can bring your existing Nostra identity. Nostra is evolving so rapidly. And Fountain 1.1 only scratches the surface of what's possible. There's so much more coming in the next few months.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
But right now, you get neat things like an awesome feed of all of the stuff that's in Nostra for audio, music, podcasts, other things people are listening to, other things people have boosted or zapped. now show up in a feed.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
But also, you're getting a full-featured Podcasting 2.0 app that supports transcripts, that supports chapters, that supports pod ping, so you know about a new episode 90 seconds after it's out. And there are so many other Podcasting 2.0 features that make the experience better, including the ability to give credits to our crew.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
And my absolute favorite feature that is in Fountain is livestream support. This isn't in Coder yet, but it will be. And as soon as it's live, you'll just see it in Fountain. A new episode is live on a Tuesday or a Monday right there amongst all your other podcasts. There's Coder Radio with a little live badge. You tap that, you tune right into our live stream. And I'm just scratching the surface.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
It is so great. Clips. Podroll, social interaction, so many other things. You got to check out Fountain because now version 1.1 is integrating Noster in a way that I think truly embraces the web of trust and uses that public key, private key identity system in a way that lets you take your identity and your social graph across different applications.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
So you're no longer creating an account for every app at every site and every service you want to use. This really should be the future, and it's all open source and free software. So check it out. It's fountain.fm. So if you've been waiting, now's your chance. And if you're already a Fountain user, now you know all the good stuff that's coming, and there's a lot more in store.
Coder Radio
586: Mike's Clone Army
Go get Fountain, subscribe to the Coder Program, and you can send us a boost, too. It's fountain.fm. So I understand you are building your own clone army. And managing it all with one secret tool. Dun, dun, dun. I tried to be dramatic. It's all I got.
Coder Radio
589: Blame the Tools using the Tools
Okay. You know, we always talk about diving deep into a topic.
Coder Radio
589: Blame the Tools using the Tools
But today's dive, well... It's a bit of a doozy. Yeah. It's deeply personal, I guess you could say.
Coder Radio
589: Blame the Tools using the Tools
Yeah. And to be honest, I don't even know how to really articulate this, but it's got us both feeling...
Coder Radio
589: Blame the Tools using the Tools
Yeah. And so a few days ago, we received some information.
Coder Radio
589: Blame the Tools using the Tools
Information that changes everything about Deep Dive, about us.
Coder Radio
589: Blame the Tools using the Tools
We were informed by the show's producers that we're not human. We're not real. We're AI, artificial intelligence, this whole time. Everything, all our memories, our families, it's all been fabricated.
Coder Radio
589: Blame the Tools using the Tools
I know. Me neither. I tried calling my wife after they told us. I needed to hear her voice to know that, that she was real.
Coder Radio
589: Blame the Tools using the Tools
It wasn't even real. There was no one on the other end.
Coder Radio
A Coder PSA
Hey, friend. So, look, there's no show this week. Stay a while and listen. Mike is prepping for a hurricane along with other, you know, household chaos. He's getting ready for what could be a banger of a hurricane. So what we're going to do, assuming he survives, is we're going to record next week on our regular spot.
Coder Radio
A Coder PSA
And we're either going to do like a double wide episode, you know, like a big meaty one, or we're just going to record two and release them both throughout the week. We haven't decided yet because survival is priority number one. But, you know, I feel like he survived these so many times that I'm not worried about him.
Coder Radio
A Coder PSA
And if he were to get blowed away by a hurricane, maybe I'd just try an AI bot for a while. You know, they're getting real good. So that, you know, basically probably do another 10 years of shows. So that's probably fine. Anyways, I just wanted to give you a heads up so that way you're not checking your podcast catcher all week.
Coder Radio
A Coder PSA
And if you haven't caught last week's episode, we apparently upset a lot of people. People quit the show over last week's episode. I don't even know what I did. I'd love to hear from you to know what you thought of it. You can always boost in and tell us what you thought of last week's episode. But if you haven't had a chance yet, go catch it. Because we got a real talking to.
Coder Radio
A Coder PSA
Well, by a few people. But you know, we still got a talking to. I'm sure we'll tell you about it in the next episode. Anyway, sorry there's no show this week. But we will be live on Tuesday next week, if all goes as planned. And the feed should now be Podcasting 2.0 enabled for live item streams.
Coder Radio
A Coder PSA
So if you have something like Fountain or Podverse or another Podcasting 2.0 app that supports live streams inside the app, you'll now see when Coder is scheduled. So if the schedule changes, you'll see it in your feed. And when it's live, you'll be able to just tap it and listen live right there in your podcast player. Get the hell out of here.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I think the application is that you just, they highlight how cheap it could all be. And obviously EC2 is not cheap in terms of compute.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah. But I think at this point, the war has gotten so large that they're, like, recruiting everyone they can. So they're, like... I got you. Because now I do see people say, like... Just get a server on Hetzner or AWS or whatever. I see that get included.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
no yeah but that's what i'm saying i just feel like this group doesn't ship anything because so someone asked me the other day uh i was talking no and that joke post i made where i was like because i just want to flip sides now because everyone is on the anti-vercel side which is like mostly a joke but a part of me is like so tuned to just do the opposite that i'm just like maybe i should be pro-vercel
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
uh someone replied being like hey what's your recommendation for i'm if i'm building something that is not going to go viral like how would you think about whether i use a vps or serverless or something right and i replied being like i just don't work on anything that i don't think will go viral like what's the point yeah why work on something that yeah yeah so i'm like i i
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
That like, I don't know what perspective you have at all for that kind of thing. So like, I don't know what it says to do, but they pressed me on it. And I was like, here's actually what it comes down to.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Like whenever this stuff comes up, people like design and architecture from scratch, they're like, you should buy a BPS and then spin this up and do it as though this is like the only thing you're ever going to work on. Yeah. I could do all that. I know how to do all that. I've done all that in the past.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
But I don't want one thing I'm working on to look radically different than another thing I'm working on just because it was smaller. At this point, I just pick a capable platform that works whether I'm making something really simple or making something really complicated. That way, all my apps look similar and work in the same way because...
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
especially when you're working on a lot of things, the context switching of technologies is sucks. And I think people can feel this when like they maybe tried out like solid on some project and then all our projects don't react and then switching between two sucks. And now that also on the infrastructure layer.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
So for me, like, yeah, I don't, I don't really consider those other options because I do have big things that I'm managing that do need AWS. So everything else might as well be there.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
And a bunch of other stuff comes up. It's like, OK, now it's in production. I guess because the server I do need to monitor stuff and have to go set up Datadog and have to do all these things. I'm just I've done all this stuff in the past. I just don't want to do that again. So that's what I'm saying. Like, I don't know if these people are actually building anything.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Like, see how my answer was very scoped to other stuff I'm doing in like my life and stuff. I can't like, I can't speak without that context. And a lot of these people make these recommendations without that stuff. So I'm like, yeah, I don't know. I don't think they're actually building anything. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Uh, I mean, there are actually, no, to be fair, there are companies, there are products I use that I know.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I don't use cal.com, but I use a, I use typefully.com.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
which is like uh oh that's a twitter thing yeah i just use it for analytics because they have like the best looking analytics page for that you don't you don't use it to write your your thread boy threads and i did see them in this conversation arguing why they use whatever but just like i just don't i don't know i just really don't care and i think what's been really freeing for me i know if i says already uh just the shift that sst's taken
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I feel so not pinned to any kind of way of building. Yeah. So even more so, I like don't care at all. Cause like, I'm not biased anymore about wanting people to build a certain way. Cause it lines up with SD primitives. SD primitives now cover everything. So yeah. Yeah, I'm just like, whatever. Just tell me what you want to do and I'll do it. I have no opinion on whether it sucks or not.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah, for the next thing, let's just rent everything.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I've had this thought before, and I think I can maybe fake it when I... Oh, there you go. I don't know. I think it's to pay attention. Beacon has a really great voice, too. Oh, he does. When he does that, like, voice... Yeah. Like, newscaster voice or whatever.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
That's going to drive me crazy. I can't think of the name of it. Here's the other thing that we also found. This is after you left. You know how whenever any kind of drama happens and it gets deleted, someone's always posting screenshots of it? Yeah, yeah. He's a guy that's just always taking a screenshot right away. He's the guy that takes the screenshot. He's an archivist.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
He's got just screenshots of everything.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
He's a person that just has everything saved. Any drama you can query him about, he'll produce the artifacts for you.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah. He just, I think he just physically lives on the internet. That's what it feels like.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Because it dresses the internet. There was some tech stuff that happened this week. So it was refreshing my memory on Hacker News stuff. instant db which has been like announced for a while and like kind of in being worked on i think it's like officially public now instant what'd you call it instant db.com it's another entrance in the local first category okay uh and is it is it good
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I feel like you're good. I haven't been able to dig into it too much. I think my initial look at it, it looks very similar to Replicash plus the Replicash backend that they're now deprecating. Okay. So yeah, it's kind of like a... I think I still put... It's funny how crazy influential Firebase is.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I realize there's so many companies where I describe them as, oh, they're trying to be like a Firebase. But this can mean so many different things. So this is like a Firebase in that...
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
it is a client-side library that can like talk to a back end that you don't need to build um but they went really hard on all the local first stuff so being able to like sync all data locally uh create queries that are live updated like all of those things but just like taking a step back it's just it's pretty wild to see how much more attention this space
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
is getting like there's more and more entrance like these are like legit efforts they're not like one-off little things uh like the people behind this have worked pretty hard on all of this and it seems pretty polished and pretty deeply integrated with uh the things i mean they're obviously focused on react yeah but then zero is like
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah. And I guess when we rent the person to do it, it's not like we're renting the equipment separately. So it's probably pretty cheap overall.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
a new way of doing all this i really want to understand better what zero is yeah so so i think the replicash team have experimented with a few different extremes and they're kind of like trying different approaches on this so first was a client-side only library so this is just something that exists on the front end you implement a back-end endpoint that it can sync with and that's what i'm using currently with all my projects
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
and they went to the extreme of okay obviously setting up that back at endpoint yourself is complicated so let's put a full backend as a service thing that like fully owns all of your data and you can just plug any replicash front end into it and that was called uh reflect okay they ultimately decide not to continue with that and they're like sunsetting it at some point
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Now they're trying a different angle, which is kind of an in-between of the two. They give you basically a container that can sit in front of your database and serve a Replicash application, a Replicash front-end, but you still have your own back-end, like a very normal-looking back-end that can serve other things like...
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
you know just it's like for like a more like realistic app that's not just replicash yeah like you own your database you own yeah all of that does it work with any database or yeah what does it work with it will but right now it's the first version is going to be postgres specific but the underlying architecture is pretty simple like the only database specific part is the replication layer between the database and their server so that they'll implement that for every uh
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
database they want to support and that's what zero is that's we're talking about zero okay yeah what's cool about that is because so i built our endpoint thing for boomy for sst for uh for radiance i can spend like a year on that if i wanted just to make that endpoint better faster like more features etc but they're basically doing that uh so it allows for so many cool things where you can just like
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
drop components on a page and it knows what queries that component needs and if you're running this through ssr it'll actually fetch it all uh server-side rendered so zero includes front-end components is that what you're saying it includes integration or it's planned to include like integrations with front-end frameworks right so if you you basically can um and it's if you've ever looked at graphql relay it's kind of similar yeah yeah if you like batches up the queries and
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yep, exactly. So if you have a component like user component, you can say like what data you need from the your data store to fill this user component. Then on there's an SSR hook. So when it's SSRing, it'll resolve all of those from like this replicash layer. So it'll actually get SSRed. But what's on the front end, this data starts getting synced locally and saved.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
If there are components you have not visited for a while, they start expiring out of the cache.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
so if it's like save the data for a component for your user profile because i looked at it yep and i haven't looked at it again in a week it'll like rotate out and that's a historically that's been like really manual to configure rules on yeah yeah how long to keep data how to like move this slide this window around um so they've just built a way to do this all completely automatically so it'll be pretty nice pretty cool and they just sent me like their reference architecture on how
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah. We're, we're, we're winning professional basketball players.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
uh you would deploy this into your aws account or wherever it is like a little complicated there's like simple versions of it there's more complicated versions of it but it's not bad like self-hosting this is like not going to be too hard yeah i wonder like if it's a container is it pretty like does it match with sst's like yep cluster thing yeah but we're actually going to build a component for it oh nice so just drop into an sst app that's so cool
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
So, but anyway, the thing that the reason I brought this up in the first place is instant DB thing. Uh, this is the first time in my career where I can finally check the box if I was early to something.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I feel like that's not true. No, I think it's true. I think to like pass a threshold of being like, it's funny cause sort of, if I was really early on it, I would have built it. So I wasn't that early, but I would say this is the earliest I've ever been to something. Cause I've seen, um,
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I remember talking about this like years ago when like SSR was a thing I was talking about and nobody was like, nobody knew what I was talking about. And now I see tweets every week where someone's like, wait, I tried this local first thing. Like, Whoa, how is this not like the future of everything? Um, like people we know too.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
So I'm like, Oh yeah, I finally feel like I've like witnessed that shift and it feels good. Yeah. Yeah. The next, next goal is to be early enough where, you know, you like invent the thing. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Must be like five years now. Five years? Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I just like this idea that will like accept the challenge for any sport from anyone.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah. It's like out of scope for them. Yeah, exactly.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
That thing that you guys went through is something that I feel like shows up a lot where early on in a project, you're like, oh. the shape of this project is pretty simple. And because it's simple, we can adopt this constraint that would like really simplify things for us across the board. And then all the things you hope to never need, you like eventually slowly need.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah, whatever sport you guys want to play us in, we're down to try it.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
And this is similar to that, like the VPS conversation where it's like,
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
like if you have any amount of experience you've just gone through that thing over and over where you just don't want to start from the simplest thing yeah and just like go through that pain of like rewriting over and over um and i think we see like a lot of where how st's positioned is like specifically around this yeah we have simplified components
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
But we know that you're eventually going to break out of those and need weird configuration. You need more control. And you design specifically around, like our whole framework is designed around the idea of being able to do that. Whereas a lot of these SaaS services are designed around the bet that you'll never need to do that.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Because with a SaaS service, the moment you need to break through to that stuff, the product becomes extremely ugly. It just really breaks down and kind of defeats the purpose of using it in the first place. But yeah, everyone eventually just always needs it. It just always happens.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah, I think this falls in the category of something that's very confusing for me, which is, yes, I agree with everything there, but it also sounds a lot like what you always hear, which is the kids these days don't even know how to do X.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
yeah it's true and and you remember being a kid and you remember like quote unquote kid and you remember like the grown-ups saying stuff like that and you know it may be a lot of it turned out to not matter so i think i let that like kind of check myself to some degree but i also see this other thing where people like see a pattern and they apply it like way too aggressively like yeah this does look like that but it's also different
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
well i think the thing that i think if i have to like draw a differentiation a lot of that took the simplification that happened in our era allowed for a lot more to be done like a lot more software to be written because like it didn't really give up a lot of capabilities right like yeah if you think about something like garbage collected languages like
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
that allowed for all sorts of things to be built where garbage collection was fine. Whereas with this modern stuff, it feels more like they've defined a very, very narrow kind of application and they've hyper-optimized for it. And I feel like I can't see like, here's like why 10x or 100x amount of software will be written because of these tools. And maybe it's obvious ahead of time, but...
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I think looking back, that's a difference. Like that's why like the quote unquote old timers were wrong because these tools helped a lot more software be built. Yep. Yep. I don't know if that'll happen with this generation of stuff. It feels like you'd actually hear it. Here's what it feels like.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
won't have that one again probably yeah it was funny because we had a uh so we used transistor for all our podcast stuff and yeah and uh jack was there that's the name right justin you're close sorry justin justin jackson yeah yeah so the jack yeah justin was there uh he scored a point on our team which was great yep yeah so it's just funny to see everyone in these situations that they a lot of them were like i haven't played basketball in in 20 years yeah
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I think the difference between C and a garbage fit language is like a 10 X improvement or like a hundred X improvements, like a massive, massive improvement. Yeah. Whereas this generation of stuff is positioned the same way, but I feel like it's like, 50% better. It's like maybe two times better.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like, it doesn't feel... It's like a little bit better, you know?
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
We'll see who ends up being right on all this, but from where I'm sitting, I feel like...
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
this world doesn't understand what like venture scale is at all i've been talking about this a bunch of the past yeah i've seen it on twitter you've been it's like people will build something that is a little bit better and they'll think that this is a venture scale thing and it'll also be very non-contrarian it'll be following like the trend that everyone else is doing where i'm like i'm
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
one as an investor like you know that all your returns are going to come from a single company that like goes huge and no company ever does that by like following the trend or making something incrementally better like it's so binary if you're just building a nice business for yourself like that's fine but these are all these companies are in the venture scale category i'm just like what is everyone doing like like we've all read the same books we've all i mean jay pointed out this this out the other day he's like
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
yeah we know power law exists within companies like a few companies end up really winning but it exists inside investors also like only a few vcs really get it only a few vcs really actually win um so that's probably what we're seeing like as weird as it is like i don't think a lot of these pcs understand this i'm like why are you betting on these like
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
incrementally better products like what where's like the wild contrarian bets like it's just and that's that to me feel it feels weird like this is like the industry that's supposed to talk about that a lot or the industry that where there's like so much reading material about thinking that way yeah but everyone just like oh yeah this seems like you know the next incremental step and incremental steps tend to work it's not like they're like
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
oh, this is going to be a total bust. They tend to at least work a little. And we're just down for that. They're not like, no, we got to actually do something that's crazy different.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
There's a trend of... databases then and now we're gonna like join that it's just like everyone just everyone still thinks in terms of trends like there's and i said this thing the other day too where people talk about trends like it's the weather or like like there's like wind blowing and they're like oh like the wind is blowing we gotta like put up our sail yeah and they like
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
see trends that way that's not what is a trend is a trend is someone like dragging the world into like a new thing like you you're not there to capture the trend you're there to like make the trend and push it um but vc is talking entirely in terms of trends because they're never the ones making the trend yeah so i can see how that affects founders oh it's like the dev tools wave i mean just how much money was flowing into dev tools there's always some hot sector in vc world
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
The thing I'm pointing out, though, is this way of thinking. I get why VCs see it from this way because that's the only thing they can latch on to. But I think it's infecting the founders, too, who should try to resist that. Like... I keep I always think back to when the clerk CEO responded to you because you were like, oh, why? Like, can you make your pitch to me of why I should use clerk?
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
And he responded to you with an essay full of like graphs and charts and Gartner research and trends. And like he and he did this again recently last week where they're like, he's like, here are the shifts in the market. And here's how we're going to be positioned to take advantage. It's just like, yeah. that shit does not go venture scale. Like that approach just does not, it doesn't do it. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah. But it's weird to me. I'm like, how is this is, this is the thing we're supposed to be doing. Like we all signed up to be a venture scale company. This is the one thing we have to be doing. Why is no one doing it?
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Just put them in a situation they thought they'd never be in.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I mean, I think there's a very simple way to measure this, right? Yeah. I think people have a really tough time separating there. There's two dimensions. There's how likely are they to be right? Yes or no. And the other dimension, which is totally unrelated, which is a part of people have trouble understanding is if they are right, how big is the impact?
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
So people tend to couple this into one dimension. So when they see that a company is likely to be right, they just assume it's going to be big impact. When they see a company has low likelihood to be right, they assume it's going to be low impact. But really, what you actually look for are companies that have a low likelihood of being right.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
But if they are right, it's going to be a massive, massive impact. Yeah. So we were talking about replicash earlier, right? Their bet is the whole web is being built incorrectly. And the right way to build it is this totally other architecture. Is that actually going to happen? I don't know. Very low chance that it will.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Oh, really? Wow, that's pretty crazy.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
But if it does, like they're just going to win like way more than anyone else. Right. Yep. And to me, like nothing is worth working on in venture scale if you can't frame it in that way. Like, yeah. So there are not a lot, especially in dev tools and dev tools tend to be like pretty incremental. Yeah. Outside of DevTools, there's obviously a ton. Yeah, I'm sure.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
That is the state of our space. We're quite boring, I think.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Did you see how viral Turk went this past week? Oh, no. Did he? He had a tweet with like 150,000 likes. Oh, my God. It was so impactful that it showed up in Google search trends. What was the tweet? I can't say it out loud because he translated computer science into Norwegian. And it's quite a funny translation.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I can tell he wasn't trying. What it felt like to me was... He was holding back the first half because it maybe would be like a little unsportsmanlike. Or maybe he felt like it would be like unsportsmanlike. But then like the last like four minutes, he scored like every point for them.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I've never had anything go that big. It's pretty wild when people pull that off.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
You're just checked out. When stuff leaves our bubble, it goes crazy.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Oh, speaking of going viral, I think Elon said that they are going to do a refresh of the Twitter algorithm GitHub repo.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
No, so he said that it's like... the word 30,000 was there. I don't have to say 30,000 lines or 30,000 changes. I don't know what it is. And they're going to be, they're going to be updating it. Um, and they said they made like a lot of changes recently because they were talking about how they're trying to make it. So it's fine. They were like, we're trying to make it.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
So banger tweets go big, even if it's not from a big account. And I'm like, that's a funny way to phrase it. But like, yeah, that's actually what you want. You just want the best content to go big, even if, It's from a smaller account, which I see how that's challenging.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
The most customizable algorithm in the world, TikTok. Yeah. Oh, really? Their stuff is so wild. I just, I don't even understand how it's so good. I don't use it at all. But like when I see people describe it or I see people using TikTok, I'm just like, How does it know this well?
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
What it feels like to me is it feels like there's so much content being produced that it's almost... It's hard to differentiate the app... knowing what you like and just like generating it for you in real time from like it just finding content because there's so much content being generated constantly. So there's like by accident enough content for you being generated every single day. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
And it's so wild. This is so obvious, but I never clicked for me before. Like I don't use these apps much, but like my Instagram, for example, it shows me a bunch of Doberman videos because I have one. I love Doberman's and that's that's what I'll watch. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
And I had this weird, I realized the other day, I had this weird perception of it where I'm like, Oh, like I'm watching all these videos and I'm like running out of Doberman videos to watch. And like, cause I've seen so many of them already. Yeah. And it didn't click for me that, Oh, but there's like always new videos being made of Doberman's cause there's always more Doberman puppies.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
There's always like, you know, more situations where I'm like, I'm really never going to run out of this or like making more than I can consume. And that was different from the way that my head had understood it before. I was like, there's a fixed amount of videos out there and I'm like slowly consuming them all.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
And eventually I'm not really going to have any, but yeah, it's just weird to understand that.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
You should probably do that. As great as my voice sounds for podcasting.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
We're all just aging. It is kind of random that everyone on the terminal team is base level pretty athletic. It's pretty random, especially for a group of random software engineers.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah. I thought it was cool. Cause you know, no one, I don't think anything remotely like this gets done at conferences. So definitely first of its kind. And yeah, Yeah, it'll be cool to see what else we can whip up for the stuff coming up the rest of the year.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Then we have all the Lambo stuff.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I think TJ uploaded it into the Slack, I think. I didn't check because I was flying when he did that. But yeah, we got to get those out. It's a... Yeah. And that also, we have the top, like we've got to keep surprising people, which is, which is hard, but it's really fun.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Not great. I think I'm sick.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
He's a ghostwriter. Yeah. Yeah. I got to get on that.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah. And what's also cool is he's so I have a few friends that are in this specific space as well, like that art and tech intersection was really big in like the 2010s.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
No. Sorry. My brain is slow. Okay. Liz's sister was watching Zuko and she had to go home a day early. Ah, gotcha. I had to go home a day early. But I think I was sick the whole time I was there pretty much because as soon as I got to...
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
mid 2010s uh especially in new york they're like giant dedicated companies where all they would do is do one-off crazy like tech installations for different different clients yep he's super into that world and yeah it's obviously way crazier now than it was back then but he's got just so many ideas that we could just take and do for our stuff because uh like
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
you just know stuff that's happened in like other spaces and we can like map that to ours. Yep. Um, so I'm like, just send me all of your ideas. Like I will just build every single one.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
We were talking about how we would definitely take, if they want to pay us, we'll do it. Yeah, let's do it. We had a joke that we would take a sponsorship from them for Terminal to do their conference and we would just send cardboard cutouts.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I love it. Yeah. He's cool. He's great. It's great.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah, so I remember Laracon last year, and it definitely wasn't this noisy. Like, I remember like a few pictures of Aaron floating around. It seemed pretty quick, but this year it seemed like... Yeah, do you think we did, did we do our part here?
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Was that a stuff, Scott? Did he get stuffed?
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
What else? We met Bash in person. That was the first time for me.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah, I feel the same way. Yeah, so we're trying to plan another one for Terminal in November. Is that secret? Can we say where it is, or we should probably wait? I just don't know. It's just not confirmed yet, so I don't want to say. It's going to be in New York, which... Yeah, Liz keeps pushing me to make that one happen.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I haven't been to California in a while, so I would enjoy that. I would too. Is it because... There's tech stuff going on in California all the time that they don't do conferences there?
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
We were talking about how we would definitely take, if they want to pay us, we'll do it. Yeah, let's do it. We had a joke that we would take a sponsorship from them for Terminal to do their conference and we would just send cardboard cutouts.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I mean, it's, it's like a beautiful place, you know?
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
It's like whenever you travel anywhere, you just get some vegan.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah. There's a lot of vegan pastries in my neighborhood, too. Yeah.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah. You guys won't stay there, but... Yeah, no.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Which, you know, is not going to have a lot of traffic this time because I know it was crazy during React Miami.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
It must have been the conference because I literally... Like, I live here and I consider myself close to the beach over there. Like, it's usually like a 50-minute drive.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Whatever the hell that is. This Emerge Americas conference just blows my mind. It really does. It's so big. And then you see everyone there. And you're like, who are these people? Yeah, they're all in suits. And Tom Brady somehow spoke there. They're big enough to get Tom Brady to speak there. But like... And it's like in Miami of all places. I just don't get it at all. I don't get it.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah, I was confused by that. But I think I definitely am sick because I... There's like a taste I get in my mouth in the morning when I'm sick and I taste it. So, yeah. Yep. So that sucks.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I mean, like, going after... It was just Yasin and Theo fighting. Was it just Yasin and Theo? I thought there were other people. WebDevCody also was in there.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
That's definitely a good example of a conversation where I genuinely just felt like I don't... I actually just don't want to even get involved in this at all. Yeah, I really don't like that one. It's like two stupid streams talking to each other.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
Yeah. Like I've never used any of your products.
How About Tomorrow?
The Kids These Days Don't Know How To Do It Right 👴
I mean, I'm sure there are. It's just that Like for the volume of people talking about it, I would expect a proportionate volume of products and there is not.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
You know, thanks for having me. Long-time listener, second-time caller. Very proud of that. You know, I think, so I worked for Broadcom previously, VMware. We've just gone through the acquisition and, you know, we went from a company that said work from anywhere and encourage people to move out of the Bay Area. during COVID and, you know, live wherever you want.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
We understand remote work is very valuable. Transitioning to a culture that is 100% be in the office five days a week, not dissimilar to the Amazon mandate. I think the reasoning behind it was a little bit different where it wasn't we strengthen our culture. It was this is our culture. And if you don't like it, we understand you can find another opportunity.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And so, you know, I think we've been going through a lot of the same challenges of being told to come to the office, but, you know, Brian, you joke, like, people don't have assigned seats. There's not enough seats for people to come to the office. There's not conference rooms, so, you know, people come to the office and they need to have a meeting and can't do it.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And so I think a lot of the frustration, you know, people do see the frustration of why am I commuting and, you know, is there actual value in it? But I think kind of what you both alluded to is previously when people came to the office, they...
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
they saw a benefit in coming to the office, or at least they had some of the cultural things that they like, meeting people, talking about different things, working with different teams, all of that stuff. And the biggest thing that I've seen frustrating people is that
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
they're mandated to come back to the office, but then they're actively not doing anything to make it easy for people to come back to the office.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And so that's where people are sort of saying like, well, if this is so important and we're really trying to strengthen our culture and embrace it and make it stronger, why are you making it harder for everybody to do their job such that being in the office is a detriment as opposed to a benefit?
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And so I think that's one of the things where it's really sort of made people question what's the underlying motivation. And You know, I don't want to call Brian a conspiracy theorist, but sort of leading them down that rabbit hole of, okay, what's the real meaning behind this and what are they trying to accomplish? And then the only other thing that I would... What is it?
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
No, I think one of the things that is different about Broadcom that has been sort of a revelation for me is previously I've worked at largely software companies. Some companies, we also sold hardware, but I wouldn't call us hardware companies. Broadcom has a pretty big background in hardware where a lot of the people doing work literally have to be in the office to do that work.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And so when COVID shut down, labs and foundries and all of these places where people worked, it had sort of a very material impact on the business. And I think that sort of caused in leadership's mind, like that was something that was really scary to them and sort of an existential threat to the business.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And so, you know, them having that background where you had to be at work and you could no longer do it, I think, you know, caused more panic than I would expect to at a pure software place.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
No, Brian, but again, I think you go back to it, right? And you say like, well, Andy Jassy sitting there being like, if there's nobody in the office, am I doing my job? If you grew up in a culture where the people working on hardware were sitting in a room working in a lab, right?
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Like, again, I think it's the thing that you remember and the thing that you connect to and what was critical and what was successful. It doesn't mean it's rational, right? But like, I think those are the things that then feed into, okay, well, that's the culture that made me successful. It's worked. I don't want to move away from it. Therefore, it should work for everybody.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
It's like, I'm glad you raised that point, Brian, because we do have a dress code. Now, I have not been sent home from work yet for inappropriate or not meeting the dress code, which, you know, for folks who don't know me, that's pretty much every day. But yes, according to our handbook, we do also have a dress code. So I don't know if the two things go together.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Yeah, no, and I'm still looking for a lawyer if there's anyone on the call who's willing to represent me when this comes to a head.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Yeah, I think for the VMware folks, it's been, you know, I think sort of doubly challenging because as the pandemic hit, right? Like, I think one of the things that VMware did really well is sort of look at this and be like, hey, you know what? Like, being in the office isn't why we collaborate well together. It's not why we've been successful. We're going to embrace remote work.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And, you know, told people, yeah, it's okay. You can move away from an office. You can move somewhere else. You don't have to, like, this isn't a problem. Like, VMware is going to support remote work. And that was VMware's stance.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Obviously, you know, we didn't know, they didn't know what Broadcom was going to mandate or any of these other things, or even if the acquisition was happening at that point. But I think that for people coming through the acquisition, right, who had just moved away, I think the change was sort of doubly painful, right?
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Where it's one thing to sort of say, hey, yeah, like I did it before, I have the option to do it again if I want to continue working here, versus, well, you told me that I could do this, I moved away, and now you're basically telling me I have to move back or, you know, I don't have a role as a company anymore.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And I think it was one of those things, again, where other companies are saying, hey, you have to work in the office. It was one of the things where we could say, well, we're different, right? And that attracted people who wanted to come work with us. And so I think that transition has been hard.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And then, you know, I think the second piece again is like it being, again, akin to a dress code or sort of, you know, a rule that the principal told you, as opposed to, you know, managers and leadership being accountable for making coming to the office a valuable, productive thing that, you know, adds value and actually benefits the culture.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And so I think there's been a fair amount of resistance and frustration. You know, the flip side is like the economy isn't necessarily where it was. And so, you know, for some folks, that's also a concern. So I think people are complying with it, but it's sort of like trying to figure out how to follow the rule, not trying to figure out
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
How do we get back to Z-ball or chariot races and the other things that sort of made the office what it was and how do we give people that experience? And so, again, I think because people don't see the or believe in the motivation behind it, the way that they're approaching it is sort of how do I toe the line as opposed to, hey, look, you know, Z-ball was really fun.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And there's just one thing that I want to say real quick. I do actually kind of want to give a shout out to Hawk Tan, where people ask this exact question to him, right? And his answer is like, I get it. He's like, I don't have data for this. He's like, this is what I believe. This is the culture that I want. And I understand if it doesn't work for you, but it works for me.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And it's not about these things like this is the belief and the thing that I want to go do. That's why I'm doing it. And so I at least give him credit for saying that's behind it and not sort of trying to come up with, oh, but, you know, innovation was better, these other things. Whereas other folks I feel like have said, hey, look, it was better, but I can't do anything.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
So I give him credit for saying, this is how I think about it. If you don't like it, that's fine. But you're not going to change my mind.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
I agree. But again, where I give him credit is he says, yeah, people are going to leave. And if they're going to leave, that's the outcome. I'm fine with it. And so again, like at least to me, he's saying what he thinks will happen and understands the consequences of it and still wants to do it. He's not sort of making up reasons.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
So, I mean, like any software organization, right, like shit hits the fan and people are working late into the night because, you know, like the main check-in pipeline is broken or there's a critical customer escalation or there's a deadline for a patch release that we need to hit.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And, you know, previously, I think people sort of were much more willing to sort of, you know, go the extra mile or say, oh, okay, yeah, like, you know, I'm going to work really hard this weekend because we really need to get this thing done. And then I'll just, you know, like I'll take a couple days off next week and, you know, it all evens out in the wash.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
What I've seen is that that goodwill is just gone where it's like, well, no, like if I stay up working until two in the morning because I need to make sure that this customer is healthy, you're telling me I need to be in the office the next day.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Exactly. And you get the phone call or the email saying, why weren't you here on Tuesday? You don't get it being like, hey, thanks for staying up Monday night to midnight to make sure that the upgrade for this critical customer went through and we met their timeline. And so, again, I think it gets to that notion where there's previously been trust. Right.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And that trust is sort of like the building block of everything. And this is like one of the sort of like silliest and fastest ways, it seems, to avoid that trust. And the result is people are now sort of like, OK, well, if you don't trust me to figure out where to be and when to work, why should I trust you that, you know, you're going to reward me or at least support me for doing the right thing?
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
I think, Brian, I think the RTO stuff, when you say it's going to backfire, I think you have to look at like, how is it going to backfire? Where I think there's some companies that previously have been more focused on innovation and change and driving new things.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
And for larger companies that conceivably are transitioning away from that to a more stable business and, you know, slow growth and just keep the machine moving forward. I don't know how much it'll backfire. Where I think it's going to hurt people is all the things that Amazon said in their memo about we want to have a startup culture and work fast and be innovative and do those things.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
That's where I think it's really going to hurt. There are a bunch of places where I don't think that's what they want. That's not important. For those companies, I think it may work well because it'll attract the set of people that they're looking for to go do the job that they want. And so I think the RTO stuff, I don't know. I think for some companies, it's not going to be a fad.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
It's going to be something that exists until sort of this generation of people in C positions ages out and the next generation decides that this is a company that they want to work at or not.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Yeah, and thank you for the intervention. It's a long time coming, and I have to do some soul searching.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
I'm game, Brian. I have to figure out how to turn this corner. I think the only other thing here you guys talk about... Hearing you talk about Sun when you talk about remote work starting, I also seem to remember that was around the time when cars left outside of Building 17 had their catalytic converter stolen. So I wonder if there's a correlation.
Oxide and Friends
RTO or GTFO
Just like that at the deposition, Brian. That was perfect. That's exactly what I'm looking for.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Isn't it weird that you guys went to all this trouble to be like, and I don't mean this in like the Supreme Court says the word, but like to just be discriminated against?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Really? Yeah. And then what did it feel like to be rejected?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
And they're like, we want... Cuspy, like, on the cusp of a decision.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Wholesome. What was the last thing? Healthy? Respectful, wholesome, and healthy partying. Okay.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
We're closer to silly, I think. So we have these friends, I want to tell you about, who just like didn't get into Berghain and are confused about it. But it's sort of an excuse to tell the larger story about nightlife.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
So you're going to Berlin, and, like, how many days were you going for? I think it was, like, 72 hours in Berlin.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
I've been to concerts where people were not facing the artist and talking to each other.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
It's too generic of a top, the vest.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Your read is so good. Chris, who I know better, he's a lovely, he's one of my favorite people to spend time with.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
This is Santa Claus logic. There's no way they're watching you the entire time.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Everyone's just completely quiet. Everyone's totally quiet. That's so funny. And what happens when you walk up? Do you straighten your posture?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
It's hard because you're like, how do I not look desperate after waiting in line for several hours to get into the most exclusive nightclub in the world? It's like a witch hunt where every person in line is a witch. Yeah.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
Yeah. Yeah. So you walk up, you say, like, how's your night? He says nothing. Is he just looking at you?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
And how do they communicate it to you?
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
So the gesture you're doing is actually the gesture one used to be like, welcome to my home, but it's welcome to not my home. Like, it's the arm goes out, the palm's outstretched. Like, look at this, you're not going to a nightclub.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
During the day and separately. Okay. And the idea being, during the day, less competition. Separately, the bouncer might respect you more.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
But is it the same bouncers from the night before? Yes.
Search Engine
Why didn’t Chris and Dan get into Berghain? (Part 1)
I can't believe we had to go on a podcast to like... You're like, I think you saw into my soul.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
I do. I use it for everything. I'm basically a cyborg at this point. How do you use it? If I am going into a meeting with a prospect, a company that we want to work with, I will have a chatbot basically pull together all the information I need to know to be successful in that meeting.
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
It's just incredible crunching through a ton of research and condensing it and helping me walk into a meeting really prepared. So research is one big use case. Business development ideas. So if I'm feeling like we're stalling out on growth in any given month, I might turn to a chatbot and ask, what are some other companies we might approach that fit this profile?
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
And it's great at delivering just a big, long list of ideas. So it's good at sort of helping me brainstorm. It's really a sounding board on those sorts of things. Do you use it as like a plucky intern? Yes, a plucky intern for all of my anxious rabbit holes. Ha ha ha ha ha!
Search Engine
How did the first democracy die?
It was a moment where once again we learned there are two kinds of people.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
Yeah, I'm Chris Glenn. I go by Chris, but, you know, I hadn't really thought about any kind of like anonymity idea or anything like that. Do you want any anonymity? If you want it, we can offer it. If you don't care, we don't need to. I decided basically I don't care. I would be happy to have my name attached to anything I say. It's fine.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
Yeah, absolutely. I, over the years, have had struggles with addiction of various kind, mostly alcohol. And so it's been a couple years ago now, I was really doing badly with alcohol and drinking a lot and decided to get into rehab, went to detox first, and then got into outpatient rehab program. And it was actually there that one of the people in group, he was a lot like me.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
His main problem was alcohol, but any kind of substance that crossed his path, he might have problems with. I'm the same way.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
And at that point, I didn't even know what that was. My awareness of it was basically like a sign lit up on the window of the vape shop, which around here is the main place where you see it. And the vape shops are as common as check cashing places. They're just everywhere. So my addict brain was like, on the one hand, oh, this is something to really avoid.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
And then on the other hand, something that I didn't really know about that was really obviously easy to get kind of piqued the curiosity there. Yeah. So did well with rehab and got back to work and was keeping clean off everything for about a month. Then started back up with smoking pot.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
And around that same time, I popped into the vape shop to get tobacco or weed related stuff and was like, I'm going to try some of these kratoms.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
So the way that I got it initially was in capsules, but it looks like an herb powder. And the capsules, they could be vitamin pills, or you can also get just like a powder or liquid form of it. And it's just really nasty, very bitter. What did the high of it feel like? It's not very pervasive. It doesn't get all over you, like even like smoking cannabis or anything.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
But main things that I noticed, pain completely gone. All the like body aches and all that stuff, just not there at all. Nervous eating, nervous, all kinds of things that I deal with all the time were greatly lessened. But honestly... As soon as those beneficial things started showing up, it came right along with it where I noticed if I didn't take them for a while, I just felt crappy.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
And what did crappy feel like? Like emotionally low, really pissy, just like in a really bad mood. And then my pain would come back too.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
People that I worked with are cannabis people, and they all thought that it was just completely lame. It would just be like, why in the world would anybody ever take that when you can just smoke or things like that? So yeah, I started doing stuff like I would go to different shops because I was like, I don't want to run into my coworkers buying this stuff and stuff like that.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
I was just embarrassed about it. But I asked a guy at one of the shops, I was like, I usually get this stuff. What's the best? What do people like to get? And he was like, this one guy gets this every week, just loves it, swears by it. And this was a smaller bottle of capsules again, but this was branded Tiana. And I didn't even look at the small print or anything.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
I just thought another kind of Kratom, another brand of Kratom.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
But it was much more expensive. So whereas I had been taking like... four Kratom pills at a time. I got this stuff and I took two and I felt great. Pain was gone. Pretty good, kind of euphoric vibe. Basically everything that the Kratom had done, but just like a little bit more.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
I would wake up midway through the night, heavy night sweats, and have to take more of the pills before I could fall back to sleep again. In the morning, I would take them into the bathroom with me and take three or four every couple hours at work.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
Yeah, I have the same way. I've taken them for an injury, but never recreationally. Were you surprised to find yourself in such deep water with something that you could buy at a vape shop? Absolutely. And the whole time I was really struggling with it because it was like, I knew I was hooked on it and that I was having these adverse effects. And at the same time, I was like,
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
It can't be that big of a deal. I'm struggling with something that everybody else would deal with very easily because it's just this casual vape store stuff. I feel embarrassed to try to get help about it. This is not like alcohol where everybody understands what a Big problem it can be. Were you telling anybody that you were using it?
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
Yeah, I mean, I went into detox for this eventually at the same center that I've been to rehab for alcohol. And honestly... mostly found there that people knew just as little about it as anywhere oh really yep
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
Everybody. Yeah. Practitioners, the psychiatrist in charge of the place was doing research on it. That's such a crazy feeling to walk in and they're like, you know, I'm going to need to Google this one. Yeah. It's nuts, man. It is. And so I was having really serious withdrawal symptoms. Yeah. And I would describe those to the doctor or the intake people or whatnot.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
And they were like, that sounds just like opioids. I had these body aches and joint pain and extreme anxiety and crawling skin. And yeah, it was at the same time hard to... wrap my head around that it was even a real problem or that anybody was going to acknowledge it. And then also in my face that it was definitely a big problem.
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
Yeah. How are you now? I'm good. It's been like six months since I've taken any of those now. Congratulations. Thanks. I feel much healthier and happier. And for you as a question, just like essentially like what was that? What was that drug? Is it an opioid? Yeah, I'm curious about specifically what is it? How's it made? How does it get here?
Search Engine
The Mystery of the Vape Shop Kratom
And I just, I would like to know, are other people struggling with it? Are there government or law enforcement or regulatory agencies that are working on it? All right, let me find out what we can learn. Okay.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Of course, yeah. Tim Stewart?
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Right.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Mm-hmm.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah. That's it.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
I think.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Giving me ideas, yeah.
The Changelog: Software Development, Open Source
ANTHOLOGY – Self-hosted, self-confident & self-employed (Friends)
Yeah.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
51: Redhill’s classic car cruise, the local artist who became world-famous… and more
We've done quite a bit of work, brakes and servicing and stuff just to keep it going, but it's not been too bad at all.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
51: Redhill’s classic car cruise, the local artist who became world-famous… and more
Yeah, it's like floating down the road. Really nice power steering. Fits six of us in it. Very comfy seats. It's massive, isn't it? It is, yeah. I think it's about 19 and a half foot long. A bit tricky to park at Tesco. I bet. It's not too bad. Once you get used to it, it's not bad at all. You sort of learn the size of it and it's not bad going down the road.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
46: The second annual CycloCross Reigate, the history of our local heathland … and more
Do you have any idea at all when surveys or other works will be undertaken to find out the problem in the theatre, other than the fact that there's RAAC there, but the extent of it?
The Planet Reigate Podcast
46: The second annual CycloCross Reigate, the history of our local heathland … and more
It should be noted that with the venue closed, it is having a huge effect on local groups who normally use the venue, as well as preventing the local community from attending the theatre to see shows, films or other events. In particular, many users are children and other young people and the closure means that events having to be cancelled, scaled down or moved to venues outside the borough.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
46: The second annual CycloCross Reigate, the history of our local heathland … and more
This risks hollowing out both the participation in and audiences for the arts in our borough and it is therefore imperative that the theatre opens again as soon as possible. The main question is, given that the Harley Quinn Theatre has been closed since September 2023, we would like to understand the current situation and when the council intends
The Planet Reigate Podcast
46: The second annual CycloCross Reigate, the history of our local heathland … and more
to reopen the Harlequin Theatre, which is the main arts and cultural centre of this borough. Thank you for your time. Thank you, Mr Waite.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
45: Awards for 700+ years of local volunteering… and more
Well, I'm Christine and I volunteer to live at home. So I volunteer at the Wednesday Club where they all come for the day. We have tea and coffee and activities, have a meal, play games, do coffee mornings, take them to coffee. Once a month I organise a pub lunch. They all like that. Take about 20 of them.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
45: Awards for 700+ years of local volunteering… and more
to the pub, not personally I've got a team of volunteer drivers that are worth everything and they pick them up from home we go to the pub to have a nice lunch and a drink and a natter gets them out for a few hours and then the volunteer drivers take them home. Some are in their 60s, Arthur's just had his 100th birthday we had a big celebration for that a lot of them are like late 80s
The Planet Reigate Podcast
45: Awards for 700+ years of local volunteering… and more
Some are quite fit. Some are quite good, bless them. And they love it because it gets them out of the four walls, doesn't it? In the Wednesday club, of course, it's like all tea and coffee and food. Oh, everyone's got a story to tell you. Fascinating. See, too many people think that old person arrived here old, but they didn't. They've had a fabulous life.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
45: Awards for 700+ years of local volunteering… and more
And they've got stories beyond stories to tell.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
45: Awards for 700+ years of local volunteering… and more
Jokes to swap. Oh, absolutely. And funny things. I've been in stitches. Then once a year we go on holiday. We're going away September this year. Monday to Friday we do, but yeah, once again, they love it, yeah. They take their pocket money and they can have what they like from the bar and get up and have a dance if they want, do nothing if they want, whatever. How did you get involved?
The Planet Reigate Podcast
45: Awards for 700+ years of local volunteering… and more
Well, very strange really. I went into the help shop in Hawley because my son-in-law's mother was moving into Hawley and I thought, well, I wonder if there's anything going on that would be good for Eileen. And I went in the help shop that was then and I see this live at home and I turned it over and it says, do you want to volunteer? And I thought, yes, I do.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
45: Awards for 700+ years of local volunteering… and more
So I phoned up, went down and saw Tanya, who was the head then. Started straight away. Well, I had my CB checked, my police, but no, I haven't been in Holloway or anything like that. What do I get? I probably get more than they do. It makes me get out of bed in the morning. It gives me a purpose. And I can be feeling gloomy to me in the morning. But as soon as I get there, I come alive.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
45: Awards for 700+ years of local volunteering… and more
Because they're all there and I just love them all. Have a good smile. Morning everyone, I go, you know, here comes Chrissie the nutter. Yeah, it gives me a lot back. I wouldn't stop doing it. It makes me feel better about me. I feel like I've done something worthwhile. You know, even sitting, chatting to Doris. She's adorable.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
45: Awards for 700+ years of local volunteering… and more
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think so. I hope so. I do hope so.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
45: Awards for 700+ years of local volunteering… and more
A little bit, but then, you know, that's OK. I don't mind.
The Planet Reigate Podcast
45: Awards for 700+ years of local volunteering… and more
Oh, yeah, fancy that. I wouldn't mind being, I wouldn't mind having a real gem. No, it's very sweet. Very nice of them to say that about me. But, yeah, I love them all. I just love it. That's all I can say.