How Mike plans to win the Clone Wars with Dokku, we review some shocking developer data and say goodbye to another project DMCA'd by Apple.
This is Coder Radio, episode 586, recorded on September 3rd, 2024. Hey friend, welcome in to Jupiter Broadcasting's weekly talk show. Taking a pragmatic look at the art and the business of software development and the world of technology. My name is host and hopefully, my name is Chris, and hopefully our host is in much better shape than me. It's Mr. Dominic. Hey Mike. Hey Chris, how's it you?
You know, you know I travel and then I get sick. And then the brain doesn't work so good. And I always get the kind of sick that's like the nose and chest sick, so that way... Like, it's hard to do the show sick, you know? Yes. So I probably sound weird. I'm probably going to say dumb stuff. So I'm not accountable for anything I say today. Does that seem fair? That seems fair.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. That's how that works.
Well, did you at least have any Memorial Day fun?
No, I worked until 3 a.m. So I started at about 8. So I started a little late. There's that. Geez. No wonder why I'm sick. But what about you? Did you enjoy your Labor Day?
Well, I did, and I have to tell you about my ribs I made.
Oh, yes, you do.
Now, I want to say I had to make two variety of ribs because the wife and kiddos protested at the idea of a dry rub.
Oh, yeah.
And demanded just slathering on bottled barbecue sauce.
They don't always, they don't know.
Well, let me tell you about this drive-up, okay? Stay a while and listen to my drive-up story.
Stay a while and listen.
This is a hickory maple dry rub. Oh, okay. You got me. That I had put on the ribs hours before cooking them and kind of let seep in. Yeah. So that's the dry rub rack. The other one is just sweet baby raised barbecue sauce. Great barbecue sauce, but it's just barbecue sauce, right?
Yep. Yep.
Now, I was pretty confident that the way to go was my dry rub. Sure. You know, you just have that feeling. Got some brown sugar in there. Got a little maple, right?
Yeah, and if it gets into the meat a little bit, you know, there's some of that water exchange happening. You got yourself a real nice flavor. And then, you know, depending on how you grill it, you kind of, you know, get kind of a bark.
Well, so I didn't grill these, to confess. I slow baked them. But still, came out great, right? Of course. The ribs come out. And it was as if piranhas descended, or dare I say gators, on both racks. First, they – and I said, why don't you try a little bit of the dry rub? I then went to tend to the sides. Half the rack of dry rub was gone.
And sitting there, dejected, was the messy as hell Sweet Baby Rays. Now, they were both good. But this goes to show fellow barbecue aficionados or the barbecue chieftains, I'd say, of our audience. When the kids whine that they want the boring thing they could just get at Chili's, just don't listen. I know. They don't know better. Yeah.
Also, you know, like sometimes, you know, especially when it comes to spouses, maybe their parents growing up didn't know how to make ribs. So their idea of what ribs could be is kind of misplaced. You know, I've had that experience. Yeah. You know, it's our it's somebody's got to do it. It's our burden, Mike. It's our burden to carry. But somebody has got to bring these people into the light.
It's our one ring of mesquite.
Yeah. So while you and I were, while you were grilling, I actually, while I was working, did have the smoker going for a bit. Ended up with a fantastic ham with a raspberry glaze. So, you know, a little multitasking there. Well, while we were doing that, leaked audio, somehow, somehow leaked audio of Amazon's cloud chief. He's, you know, the Amazon Web Services CEO, Matt Garman.
He shared his thoughts on an internal fireside chat held in June. So this just came out. And according to Business Insider, in the audio, he tells employees that most developers, get ready for this one, Mike, could stop coding as soon as AI takes over. Never heard this one before, but check out his timeline. He says, quote,
If you go forward 24 months from now, or some amount of time, I can't say exactly where it is, it is possible that most developers are not coding. Coding is just kind of like the language that we talk to computers. It's not necessarily the skill in and of itself. The skill in and of itself, like how do I innovate? How do I build something that's interesting for my end users to use?
Being a developer in 2025 may be different than what it was in 2020.
I mean, saying something is going to be different, you know, five years apart is like, sure, right?
Yeah. Yeah, very much so. Very much so. Although the part that he kind of leaned in on was developers could just stop learning to code maybe as soon as 24 months.
Yeah, I think we keep proving this false, right? You know, this is not the first time that people said, oh, development's going to die, right? I remember the battle days of, you know, everything's going to be Adobe, whatever that thing, not Air. It doesn't really matter, right? It's dead anyway.
But, you know, and all these other platforms were going to die, and it was no good, and you're screwed if you don't jump on the bandwagon. And I think we can say that that is not how that happened. I have two thoughts.
One thought is I thought we were past this dumb about AI hype. I thought we were like into some sort of new echelon of AI hype. And we were way past the like all say a random crazy big number thing. And then the next executive says the next random crazy big number thing. And then the next, you know, and on and on. I thought we were past that.
Apparently, we just hit the reset button on how we're doing our AI hype. So that's frustration number one. Second thing that crosses my mind is why are there no repercussions for saying this stupid stuff? Like we are we could we should if I would have known all these dumb claims were going to get made, I would have started keeping track. But they were also ludicrously stupid. I hadn't expected it.
It just hadn't fathomed it. I hadn't hadn't considered it because they're so dumb. But if I would have known, I would have made a list. So that way I could call these idiots out every month that it doesn't come true. Like, I want a clock or I want a meeting reminder, something that tells me on the date that this guy's prediction, 24 months from from June of 2024.
And I want to hold him accountable because I am sick and tired of these unaccountable, rich as hell tech executives going around blowing smoke up every investor's crotch. And then it's the workers who then end up getting laid off when it doesn't work out. Somebody should be – they should be held accountable for this.
Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella recently speculated that easier access to AI technologies will create a billion new additional developers. I believe that. So the Amazon Web Services CEO says we won't need developers, and Satya says we're going to have a billion new developers.
I know many business types, let's call them accounting, generic accounting finance types. I'm sure there's an accounting podcast that would roast us for that. But see, we know our area. And basically, that's it. My mom is one of them. In effect, these folks are basically using Excel as a development platform. They just wouldn't call it that, right?
But it's like, they've got conditionals, they've got loops, they've got all kinds of crazy stuff going on. I think Satya is right. A little, God, it's going to be Clippy, isn't it? It better be Clippy. They should bring Clippy back.
You're going to basically say, you're going to go, hey, create me a thing to keep track of this, and it's going to create you a horrible spreadsheet on the back end.
Right.
I don't know. But it's not going to wipe out the whole class of developers. I don't think. I just don't see it.
Yeah, and I also don't think it's going to bring a billion new developers. No, it's going to be somewhere in the middle. But speaking of AWS's CEO, I do like some of the more recent decisions. Now, AWS is supporting conditional rights. Yes.
They say, using conditional rights, you can simplify how distributed applications with multiple clients concurrently update data in parallel across shared data sets. In other words...
You no longer have to do a bunch of client-side consensus to coordinate updates and hit the crap out of an object store before you can figure out what data needs to get uploaded versus what data doesn't need to get uploaded. So you're going to save yourself costs essentially, right?
Yeah. So the idea is if you refactor just a very little bit, it's actually not that big of a change. To use this conditional API, you're going to save yourself money because I think everybody who listens to the show who uses AWS knows that Amazon charges for every goddamn thing.
So every write, even if it's a redundant write, even if you're overwriting data that is the exact same data with the exact same data, you are paying for that.
Which you could see when you have multiple clients or something like that. You could see how that happens for you.
Or if you're dealing with large assets like 3D files or something like that, you really want to... not be doing that. And I know a lot of folks, right, a good practice is to, you know, manually check in your application logic. But this basically does that for you if you implement this API. And I would care to wager it's probably more accurate and less error prone than a hand-rolled solution.
Also, it's code you didn't write that you don't have to maintain that Amazon's going to maintain for you. So, yeah, I like this. I would use this on my next project that involves AWS.
We got some feedback this week that, well, it's a capitulation. The crab kind of capitulation where the gophers win. It's actually happened. I wanted to read this from Brian. He came in. It's hard, I would imagine, for him to admit this. He says... Although I fought in the booths for Russ to be the language of the Coder Radio program, I can no longer afford to go higher than the Gophers.
So as a sign of good faith and respect for a hard-fought battle, I am sending you a song generated for the current champion. Also, Go is my second favorite language, so there you go. Not sure why the app downloads this as a video, though. Good luck.
Oh, my first line in a coat that's bright. Found simplicity in a world that's tight Concurrency's smooth, it's out of sight In gold we trust, it's a coder's delight Memories clean, no garbage in sight Gloriotines run like a horse in the night Static type that makes the airs light. In gold we code and our futures bright. Hey, with gold we're building dreams. Light and fast it reigns supreme.
In this language clear and lean. Gold with the flow, it's a coder's dream.
Thank you, BHH32. There you go. Until somebody can beat 300,000 sats, go is the official language of the Coder Radio program. That's officially the go song. Go with the flow.
And apparently country western is the official music genre.
I guess. I guess. That's also sort of what happened. Yeah. Oh, BHH, that is hilarious. And I appreciate the work you put into that. And you know what? Talk about being a real sport. Losing to the Gophers. The crabs impressed me today. It's time to check out Fountain.fm. Version 1.1 came out. They didn't ask me to do this. I want to give a shout out to our friends over at Fountain.
This is a lightning powered value for value podcasting app that just keeps going from strength to strength. And this 1.1 update is massive. They're introducing Noster into the app. Now, if you haven't tried Fountain, you've been thinking about it. Or if you haven't tried Noster and you've been thinking about it, it's like peanut butter and jelly coming together or peanut butter and chocolate.
I don't know your preference. Whatever. It's really handy because they give you a slick onboarding process to get started in Noster. Now your fountain identity is a Noster identity and it can move between all the different Noster applications. There's hundreds of them now, including hopefully one day other podcasting So you're no longer creating like a fountain account.
You're creating an identity that is yours. They just help you do that. Or you can bring your existing Nostra identity. Nostra is evolving so rapidly. And Fountain 1.1 only scratches the surface of what's possible. There's so much more coming in the next few months.
But right now, you get neat things like an awesome feed of all of the stuff that's in Nostra for audio, music, podcasts, other things people are listening to, other things people have boosted or zapped. now show up in a feed.
But also, you're getting a full-featured Podcasting 2.0 app that supports transcripts, that supports chapters, that supports pod ping, so you know about a new episode 90 seconds after it's out. And there are so many other Podcasting 2.0 features that make the experience better, including the ability to give credits to our crew.
And my absolute favorite feature that is in Fountain is livestream support. This isn't in Coder yet, but it will be. And as soon as it's live, you'll just see it in Fountain. A new episode is live on a Tuesday or a Monday right there amongst all your other podcasts. There's Coder Radio with a little live badge. You tap that, you tune right into our live stream. And I'm just scratching the surface.
It is so great. Clips. Podroll, social interaction, so many other things. You got to check out Fountain because now version 1.1 is integrating Noster in a way that I think truly embraces the web of trust and uses that public key, private key identity system in a way that lets you take your identity and your social graph across different applications.
So you're no longer creating an account for every app at every site and every service you want to use. This really should be the future, and it's all open source and free software. So check it out. It's fountain.fm. So if you've been waiting, now's your chance. And if you're already a Fountain user, now you know all the good stuff that's coming, and there's a lot more in store.
Go get Fountain, subscribe to the Coder Program, and you can send us a boost, too. It's fountain.fm. So I understand you are building your own clone army. And managing it all with one secret tool. Dun, dun, dun. I tried to be dramatic. It's all I got.
That was great. Yeah, so my good friend Master Sephadeus came and was like, you know what we need? I'm like, no, what's up? And aren't you Darth Tyrannus? Spoilers, I guess, maybe. And come on. He's like, no, I'm not. Anyway, here's what you need. Doku apps clone. So I'm going to pat us on the back. I may break my arm doing this again, Chris.
Do you remember we talked to that little stone company called Cloud9 that became Docker? Yeah. Nice. Yes. You know what, Mike? I'm kind of familiar with that. Yes. Well, called it. Still paying off in 2024. Doku, I mention it all the time, but if anybody somehow missed it, is a reimplementation of the Heroku Buildpack deployment API, whatever you want to call it, on top of Docker.
And open source, which is the key thing. They do have a weird paid plan that you don't need to use because you don't need it. So I had a problem where I got a request that a customer wanted staging to literally mirror production data on a set amount of time. Now, everything's hosted on their own infrastructure. So it's one box.
Glory of Docker, you can run multiple applications on one box in different containers. Again, Docker, we knew them when, when they were just we lads. But it's a huge pain in the ass to sync the data, right? This Postgres database, this kind of thing that I hate doing because it's error prone.
And, you know, everybody says they don't care about the second instance, the staging instance, but they definitely care, right? You're going to get the calls that it's down or whatever, something crazy happened. Yeah. So I was looking for a way to make this less of a support burden.
And little did I know about this app's clone functionality in Doku, which I use every single day and have been for years. See what happens when you don't read the damn manual? What it does is it takes the existing instance, copies the application, the environment variables to a point. You can change them later. And most importantly, any attached databases.
So Doku obviously has the Doku Postgres plugin. And like Doku Storage, any of those configurations you're using for... Doku has a robust plugin system. And creates a new instance. Things it doesn't do for you. SSL. Big pain in the butt. Okay. Change environment variables, also pain in the butt.
For instance, you probably don't want to be sending emails or push notifications or anything like that from your staging instance, right? Now, my case was a Rails case, but this would work for, you know, FastAPI or, you know, Spring, really anything, right? Java Spring, whatever, right?
I wrote a very simple bash script and using good old cron because we're on Linux and we have things like this that make this easy. Ran this command, right? Doku apps clone. I think I did. It's like every Sunday at midnight or 1 a.m. Okay. goes in after it's been cloned, calls Let's Encrypt, which is the free way to get SSL certs, right?
Which Doku has a lovely plugin for, so it calls the Doku Let's Encrypt plugin, configures that all properly because you have to do it every time for every instance. So then you get your SSL, then goes in and changes the environment variable, in my case it's the Rails env, to be staging, which I just put a simple flag in the application to prevent certain actions I don't want to happen on staging.
Long and short of it, I have a pretty stable, nothing bad has happened to it yet, instance that is mirroring production data, which is what my customer wanted. It is not on a box outside of their network. It is on the same box as prod right now. And so they have no additional security concerns, right? It's not like I'm
you know shunting their data over to a heroku instance or something like that it's right there so there's no additional security concerns it is automatic using the built-in doku clone functionality and a bash script that is roughly 20 lines long very simple yeah yeah and i'm done by the way it costs no additional money you know in terms of infrastructure
And if something goes wrong, you've got a clone. You can get that deployed. You can revert back to that. You could set it up for testing. Like, you can do more than just use it for testing. You could use it for recovery. I mean, you could recreate the environment.
Yeah, some of that's built into Doku, too, where you can, like, revert to different versions. But more importantly, let's say they say, okay, now we have staging, but we want, like, a super bleeding edge of what you guys are working on, instance. Sure. For, let's say they, like, I don't know, they want to add, like, a side module. I'm just...
They have not asked for this, but I'm just making this part up. That is only specific to like one division in their company. But we can have like the, you know, Jupiter Broadcasting video team instance, right? By modifying the script by like two lines.
Yeah, that's really slick, too. You're basically solving problems once and then just making small tweaks. And it's like, OK, here's your particular environment. Go for it. Yeah, you can have this build. Go for it. That's cool.
Yeah, and this kind of problem is like the thorny kind of like data, like am I messing with data thing that I hate to do? Because, you know, you're always ultimately responsible and you never want to be screwing around where you could like lose data or anything like that. But yeah, I really like this.
And again, I mean, you know, the wise men in Washington State and Florida, although I think I was in New Jersey at the time, you know, knowing about Docker, seeing those young promising lads before they made it to the Premier League.
When they didn't even call it Docker.
No, it was Cloud9, I think. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Right, because they were selling... They were like a platform as a service, weren't they, basically? Yeah, because their product was actually Docker, but they were selling it as... As like .something, right?
.cloud or something?
.cloud. Was it .cloud? I thought it was .cloud. No, it's .cloud. No, no, you're right. It's .cloud because Cloud9 was the... Remember, we had them on too. They were like a VS Code in the cloud before VS Code.
Before VS Code, yeah. The show is very old. Yeah. So the funny thing is, is Docker was just like, oh, that's just the thing we created using some of these primitives so that way we could deliver the service. And I think, you know, that might, looking back at that history, might explain why we've never seen, like, a super sound monetization strategy for the Docker company.
They have enterprise contracts, though. I mean, they're not, they're not, they're not, they're okay. They're doing okay. Yeah, right. Now...
Yeah, this is great. So we'll put a link in the show notes, coder.show slash 586, to Mr. Dominic's blog where he also gives you some examples and, you know, wrote up all the deets a little bit extra there. This feels like you got, like yourself, like something you could use for years. You could use, you know, this is great. I love that kind of stuff.
Yeah, not to beat the horse here, but one of the nice things about using, you is it is platform agnostic, right? So a problem I know a lot of folks in the Rails community are having is Heroku, since Salesforce acquired them, has become super stagnant and expensive. Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, and expensive. So it doesn't matter if you're on Linode, AWS.
In fact, AWS is more than happy to take your money while you use open source projects. They're down. In this case, my customer is on Azure. like weird enterprise Azure. So it's fine. As long as you've got a Linux instance, you're good. Unless of course you're hosting an open source project that helps you make Docker containers of Mac OS.
That's sad, isn't it? You know, I was really hopeful for that project. Yeah. So Docker OS 10 allowed you to run Mac OS inside a Docker container. And I think it's probably using virtualization somehow in there.
Yeah.
And a couple of days ago and shocker here, they got DMCA, no doubt by Apple. There is another project out there called just Mac OS inside a container like that. I'm sure they'll get DMCA. Some folks on the GitHub have have. taken the scripts and then they're just supplying their own ISOs somehow. I don't know where you get ISOs of Apple's installers, but they do get them.
If you have a developer account, you can download them.
Oh, okay. And so then if you supply your own ISO, you can still use the Docker OS X container. But... Doesn't that show you, Mike, just how freaking far containers have come that you can run entire operating systems? Basically, you're running VMware software inside a container, which is then, yeah. Yeah, it makes sense.
I mean, I know a dude who runs a container for each of his consulting clients. Sure. Just like on his local, he never, he's a Python dev, and he just, he says, I don't want to, you know, he's using them for whatever, you know, virtual environment. But he says, I just put them all in their own container. That way, if something goes haywire, I don't have to worry about it.
Just blow the container away, and there we go.
It's the religion of containers. Well, I saw an interesting study go by that I wanted to share with you. It's from Upwork, and they interviewed 2,500 global C-suite executives and full-time employees and freelancers. And they have a couple of interesting tidbits. The study finds that 77% of employees report that the new AI tools have actually increased their workload.
that there's a disconnect between the expectations of managers once they give them these tools and the experiences employees are having using the tools. In addition to all of this, AI adoption is causing burnout among 71% of full-time employees that now feel overworked. However, freelancers, contract employees, seem to be on average surpassing full-time employees in productivity.
And when interviewed, the C-suite executives said that they plan to leverage freelancers more and staff less. The findings show that 80% of leaders who leverage freelance talent say it's, quote, essential to their business. And 38% of leaders who don't already leverage talent pools outside the business will in the coming year. So here's a couple of things I took away from this.
Managers are giving staff AI tools. 77% of those surveyed said that they just made them feel more overworked and got less done. And the way the executives are responding is by leveraging contractor work more instead of improving the worker situation. Organizations seem to be, on average that were surveyed, really struggling to maximize AA's productivity potential.
It seems like the freelancers come into with better skill sets. They already know how to use these tools a little bit more. And employees likely need more specific training to be able to actually use this stuff effectively. 77% though seems like a pretty big number of people who report increased workload due to AI tools.
That's interesting. Increased workload? Increased workload?
Yeah, and 71% of those then said it's contributing to their burnout factor. And then the big note, almost universally across the companies, is using more and more contractors and expecting less from salaried staff. That doesn't seem good to me. That seems, I mean, good for guys like you and I who exist in that world, but bad for staff?
And yet I would agree the contractors do tend to be able to get a lot more done because they're focused on one thing. I mean, there's always downsides, but, you know, the contract companies, they're experts at this thing.
They don't have to deal with all of the other things like doing one on one with your manager and doing employee reviews and making sure that you've gone in and done all your KPIs. Like they don't have to worry about the same things that a staffer does. So they can just work. And then also it behooves them to be more competitive with these tools.
So a contractor is going to know how to get the most out of something like Copilot or how to get the most out of using an LLM that you train against your data.
And a contractor is going to be the one that spends time with the Red Hat tooling to create your own LLMs for enterprises because they have the motivation, they have the opportunity by working with multiple different clients that have different demands, whereas a staffer is going to be very heads down, focused on their task. They don't necessarily have the bandwidth
To go out there and experiment with all this different stuff. So it seems to me like the data probably does bear out to be true, but that's kind of dark.
Yeah. Also, I think the incentives are super aligned for contractors, many of whom might be working on like a fixed scope project where literally their margins go up if they can get it done faster. Yeah.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. The incentive structures. I don't I don't know. This is this is also this is all still so new. I think part of what I also take from it is these tools don't work as well as they claim to. And so you give them to employees and they end up spending more time futzing with the tool than they do getting the work done. I think that's probably entirely possible.
I'd like to know what you think. I actually haven't heard from very many people in the audience. So if you work somewhere that is experimenting with any of these, Gemini, Copilot, any of these, if maybe your company subscribes to OpenAI, boost in and tell us how you're using it or if it hasn't been working. I would like some field reports here.
Or if you've maybe proposed it and your company shot it down. Let's get some, let's get some like boots on the ground reports, please. Four score and seven boosts to go. All right, now brace yourself because Colorado Coder Colin came in with 400,500 sats. There it is. Hey! This is, like, basically his first boost ever, too. Coming in hot. So, absolutely amazing.
He took the long journey to get it set up and came in with an incredible boost. Here's what he says. Long-time listener, first-time booster. R.O.P. R is the first programming language I learned as I studied statistics at university. Well, Eric's going to be delighted to do that. More importantly, the R is in coder and in radio. So it really ought to be the official language of the show.
We had to go for like 40 minutes. Amazing. All right. Because I was traveling, I did not have a chance to peek at this beforehand. This was a cold read, so I don't have an R song, but I'm going to have to get one, obviously.
Good, good.
Yes, I'll get one. That is amazing. Colorado Coder, Colin, thank you very much for that fantastic boost. Thank you for listening for so long. I'd love to hear what you're doing now, and roughly when you did start listening, if you'd ever want to do a follow-up boost, of course. I would understand if it's not 400,000 sats. All right, well, how do you feel about R as the official language?
Yeah.
You know what? Eric's such a good guy. I feel like it.
I'm sure Eric will hook us up. I'm good.
That's good. Oh, wow. Thank you for the boost. Ty Alaskan comes in with 50,000 sats. I hoard that which your kind covet. He says, I can't believe my cheeky official language boost triggered such a crazy bidding war.
You have no idea.
That's the thing I love about the boost is there's these just organic community things. Anybody know the total amount we raised for the show with this? I'm proud that my fellow gophers backed me up. I'm surprised the crab people didn't make any moves. Well, they tried. They tried. They did try. The gophers... But, you know, the R guys, they're hardcore.
Because they're working in data science. They have like lots of money.
Well, not only that, but they're serious.
They're serious. You know, Eric does a whole R show. He's evangelizing.
Yeah, he's serious about it. Absolutely. It's a lot of work. Bite Bandit also comes in with 50,000 sats. I hoard that which all kind covet.
Coming in hot with the booze.
Bite Bandit writes, love the show. The conversation about whether breaking the law should auto bill you reminds me of a story I heard on Darknet Diaries. Uh-oh. about a hacker from Scandinavia country that, quote, decided not to go to jail with no real repercussions. The way they look at it is something like it's the police's job to put you in jail and keep you there.
So if you decide not to go, that's a failing on them. It's not your responsibility to turn yourself in just to avoid additional severe punishment. Well, I think it is, but, you know, I love the spirit of it.
That's not how it works in the States. They give you a day and they're like, show up or, you know. You're in a lot more trouble. Forget about parole, right? Yeah. In Florida, they just feed you to the gators.
It might be better fate, to tell you the truth. Although, maybe I should... Maybe I should move to Scandinavia country because I love the spirit of it.
I got to give our European listeners one thing. Their prisons are like less horrific than ours. Ours are like overly – especially for stupid stuff like – it's funny. Florida has made – it's on the ballot again.
it's gonna win probably but like the medical marijuana law here is so thin it's like i'm stressed out they give you a card sure they give everybody a card and it's all these old bitties running around like these old driving around unfortunately driving around token uplifted right like holy crap and but but 10 years ago
They were throwing kids in jail for like two, three years just for possessing a couple marijuana cigarettes.
They don't say it, but I believe the largest demographic of cannabis consumer in Washington State where it is legal recreationally is probably – women in their forties to their late sixties.
Oh, it's, it's, it's my experience. I mean, this is an anecdote, right? Is it's women of that demographic, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. It's, and it's a, it's a transition and I'm not being sexist or anything. This is just, I've, I've had a conversation with enough of the ladies in my family and the extended family and their friends. I've just heard these cause this is, this has been years now here in Washington. Um, It's – they view it as a healthier alternative to wine and booze.
That's exactly what I've been told too. It's they gave – basically they gave up their wine and wine is loaded with sugar and obviously alcohol.
Yeah, well, they're all on Ozempic too, so they don't want to be drinking wine anymore. It's true, though. There's a big thing around here. You know, it's an interesting choice, but OK. Yeah. Anyway, so it's just fascinating. And yeah, the laws are so because then you cross the state border to Idaho and it's illegal. And if you have it in your car and you get pulled over, you're in big trouble.
It's crazy. It's just so broken. But, you know, the Florida stuff is kind of becoming national news with the election and everything. Everybody's watching you guys. Oh, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Just grumble.
C-dubs comes in with 33,333 sats. Put some macaroni and cheese on there, too. And using Boost CLI, too. The traders love the ball. Boost CLI is a hardcore way to go, so respect that. Yeah. Regarding the digital ID conversation, yes, it is convenient having your ID in your phone, but have you considered where it's going?
I see services requiring digital signatures, starting with age verification, but then financial services, your social media, etc. It's better than uploading a picture of your ID or face, but the government will, of course, be watching.
Well, yeah, right. They're debating that law, which probably won't pass because it's an election year, the Child Safety – I forgot the acronym, but it's another internet regulation law. That would effectively force something like this where you'd have to have digital IDs to access.
I think the word they use in it is objectionable material, which, oh, the lawyers are going to make so much money trying to define what is and is not objectionable. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah, I mean, but everything's bad. Right. I don't know. Chris, I think you're probably more of a freedom warrior on this than I am. I just we're going to get digital IDs.
Oh, man, it was rough. I had I had a real like moral like what do I do kind of quandary because I was flying to Toronto. You know, and it's like I'm going somewhere that longitudinally is, is that a word, is actually lower than me. So it doesn't even feel like I'm crossing a border because Washington is further north.
And it just feels stupid that I had to like I had to completely dox myself to be able to cross the border. And I flew with Alaska and Alaska has partnered with Airside. And AirSight is an app that's dedicated to just fully KYC-ing you to every security agency and data broker in the world.
It has you scan your passport, you scan your ID, you do like a facial scan, you link it to your TSA, pre-check if you've got it, and then you link it to your Alaska flight specifically. And then Alaska...
Connects to their API Alaska Airlines connects their API and verifies that you've done all of that and then supposedly although I don't know for sure it makes going through customs faster I don't know if that's true or not because I don't have global entry so I haven't gone that far I still have to stand in the pleb line for an hour but I didn't do it and I didn't do it and I didn't do it.
And then I started hearing stories about people that just decided to not use the AirSight app, and they were just going to do it at customs like they normally do, and it taking so much longer. And I just, I gave in, and I... I mean, TSA's already got me, and Alaska Airlines has already got me. So I'm like, all right, now Airside's got me.
But if you travel, especially if you travel internationally, you've already had to give in on this. Yeah. The state already has all my information for my driver's license. So... It doesn't really change the security game if I put it on a phone. But what C-dubs is pointing out is it starts to smooth that path. So pretty soon, like everything, you know, your passport. Now, where's your vaccine?
Like, say, if another pandemic comes up, you just throw your vaccine card on your phone. That'll get checked. No more paper vaccine cards. That's silly, right? We want to verify your social identity. We're going to put that on your phone. And, you know, you do a face ID or a thumbprint to verify that it's you. And then that... Service connects over an API and boom, you've logged in.
Like, yeah, I think that's where it's going. And I hate it. This is why I've got me to go on about this. This is why I feel like we are in a moment of time where it's probably already too late. But if we're going to have a shot, it is right this very moment, something that is distributed for identity. And that's where Nostra comes in.
At the core of it, Nostra is a public key and a private key, just like PGP. and then it is a relay network to pass messages, notes, notes and other things, Nostr. And that is a C-shift in online identity because I have a private key, and I can use that private key to log into, quite literally now, thousands of Nostr applications with one identity. And if one service or site starts getting...
In S***tified, I just take my key and I move. And you know it's me because it's a public key verification process. I don't need any kind of proprietary application. I don't need a government-issued version of this. I don't need an Apple Wallet version of this. I just need my private key.
And there's applications like Albi that put a user interface in front of this, so I'm never actually moving my key around. I log into Albi like I log into everything else, and then Albi is handling the key stuff for me transparently. So as a user, I don't even know there's a public-private key system, or you could if you want to get technical with it. And I think that's what Noster is.
It is an open distributed web of trust that has the capability of also doing a Craigslist, or it has the capability of doing a Twitter clone. But it's at its core a public private key identity system. And that's why I'm encouraging people to just go play with it just to reserve their public private key tied to their identity so they have that in the future if this ever goes anywhere.
And Fountain FM is probably the easiest way to do that because it'll just walk you through a wizard of creating a Nostra identification just when you try out the Fountain app. And otherwise, it's all going to be corporate controlled Apple, Google, Microsoft or state issued IDs that get loaded onto our phones. That's where this goes. How about that for an answer?
I know.
That was a bit much.
Power to the people.
There's a small window of time. That's why I even bother getting into it. Because if people don't care and give a crap, then it is going to get solved by the big tech companies and government.
Can I break your spirit even worse? Yeah, sure. So the positive scenario you described isn't going to happen. Right. And going through the airport is still somehow going to suck, even though they know who you are automatically. Yes.
I can't argue with you.
I can't tell you how much it's our fault.
You know, people could have cared a little bit more. We could have taken action.
I just want to get through security. I know.
Like it's the 90s. Oh, God, Mike. You know, I just I had this moment. We have a listener. Uh, he listens to this. I hope he's doing okay. We haven't heard from him. Mike down. Um, he's Mike listener, Mike, or I think he boosted his like Mike down mouse. Um, but, uh, he took us up in, he took us up in his Cessna over Denver. It was beautiful, but he broke me. It's been years now and he broke me.
I broke, and I hold him personally responsible for it because he showed me, uh, That there are two worlds, that there is this world called private flight where you show up at what feels like a large country club and you walk in a lobby where they have snacks and coffee and goodies and chairs. And then somebody behind the desk tells you when the plane's ready.
And then you walk down the hallway out on the tarmac and walk onto your plane. And that's the airport process. You just park your car in a parking lot like a human being. You walk into something that looks like a country club, a little bit noisier. You lounge until, you know, the help's got your stuff ready. And then you go get in your plane. And then when you land, it's the same thing.
There's no security line. There's no check. He broke me. He broke me forever. Every time I fly a commercial, I die a little bit.
I've had a very similar experience. And my commercial experiences are also infuriating because the flight I most commonly take is a roughly two and a half hour flight. And yet, each way, I'm in security or the lounge or whatever. whatever for two hours. Right. Yeah. Which is for those of us who are, you know, proficient at math, almost as much time as the actual flight. Yep.
Oh, and now, because airline prices are ridiculous, a flight that used to cost me, let's say, five-something round trip, I'm paying like 800 bucks. And the seats, I mean, yes, maybe I got a little more portly, but I used, do you remember like not paying to have a bag? Yeah. Or how about like a complimentary drink or something? And I don't mean like booze. I mean like not getting shaken down for,
i guess you still get the drink but yeah depending on where you sit depending on the airline all these things change but the seats are definitely less comfortable uh you know it's just where business class used to be like reasonably affordable yeah and now it's effectively first class minus 100 bucks i yeah and slightly less nice food yeah but that's it right like i i don't know it's it's over 9 000 now i'm sitting here doing the math
Analysis mode. Password 80085.
Mr. Nick86 sent us in 10,000 sats across two boosts, and he writes, Hey, tech family. I've been a longtime listener since the land days. Thank you for boosting in. This might be your first, so I'm going to give you that. I'm curious to hear your take on this topic.
Speaking with a new coworker the other day, I was explaining how the iPhone and iOS would be vastly different if Steve Jobs hadn't passed away. Tim Apple has grown the business, but the company has lost its way. They're no longer the pirates. Go watch the 2007 iPhone introduction. The App Store wasn't a thing until iOS 2. Before then, it was web apps running AJAX, the only way to get content.
So here's my question. If jobs didn't pass, what would Apple look like now? Jobs fought against old technologies like Flash and essentially killed it single-handedly. So would we have more progressive web apps? For me, I think two killer technologies I've always wanted on my iPhone that would be robust support for progressive web apps, and I'd love convergence.
Having one device which can transform from an iPhone to a personal computer, all based on a dock, would be amazing. Game-changing. Too bad Tim Apple won't ever do either because revenue.
Okay, so this is a common thing that I've been reading from disgruntled younger iOS developers. So the reason Steve Jobs killed Flash was a battery life concern, and just like Antipathy, he felt that Adobe was making the iPhone look crappy. And... There is no case where Steve Jobs somehow being in charge still would be better for developers.
The reason it took so long to get the App Store was because Steve Jobs was personally against it. He had to be convinced because he didn't want developers installing software on their phone. And the idea that he would be this evangelist for PWAs I think comes from the marketing and the truly good web standard support they did for the original iMac launch and for a few years after.
Yeah, and remember in his keynote introducing the iPhone 2, he talks about how great web apps are on the iPhone. They were always going to have to capture more revenue, right?
And he was a control freak.
I would say, and also when you talk about pricing and how Tim Apple always goes after revenue. I mean, it was the upgrade prices for RAM and hard drives were even more of a ripoff in the Jobs era. Yeah. All that stuff. And they did proprietary monitors, so that way you could only buy expensive Apple monitors.
I know. I'm sitting in front of one that's doing weird stuff now for $1,500. I'm so happy.
And it was neat because the cord would carry data, power, and video signal. So that was cool, but you had to only buy that stuff. I keep making this mistake. I do think, though, there's a nugget of truth to what Nick is saying here. And that is... Jobs was the ultimate product guy. He truly, truly understood that you needed to press a little bit harder. And, you know, I'll give you an example.
The Tim Cook class at Apple before the iPhone was pushing hard internally for the iPhone to be plastic. Horrible plan. And Jobs hated it. He says, it just doesn't feel good. It needs to be glass. And he's right. The glass stuff, the glass and metal, it feels really good in the hand.
I mean, well, if Jobs is still around, the Vision Pro doesn't even get out of, like, the first meeting with him. And he probably fires the guy who showed it to him, right? Yeah, I bet that's true. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's definitely differences. I would also add... I almost think him being around would have been much better for the Mac.
It's funny because we're past it now, but the just horrendous error of the butterfly keyboard, which was, I'm sorry, but that was a broken product on the MacBooks and the MacBook Pros. It wasn't that I didn't like it. I forgot her name, but the journalist from the Wall Street Journal didn't like it. Joanna Stern. Joanna Stern. The damn thing was broken out of the box. Yeah.
Yes.
And it wasn't something that like – It was a bad design. It was a bad design.
They stuck with it way, way, way too long.
Right. And that's like – that is – I think Tim Cook is a – he's obviously a brilliant businessman. But he's too much of an accountant. Damn, a lot of shade towards accountants today. He's – I feel like they kept the butterfly keyboard because, yeah, it would have been expensive to turn the ship and be like, we can't use these because they're broken. Right.
And they're slow. You know, it takes Apple a long time to design alternatives. The new keyboard on the current generation of MacBooks is great, but it took them too long to get there. But you know what keyboard was also great?
The one before it? Right. The one they were using for like... The one they could have rolled back to. Or they could have just like... Like, I feel like there was a... You put it best, I think. An emphasis on product, but also like quality. Like the Vision Pro, man. That's...
It's embarrassing how bad that's turned out for them.
And how well the BetaQuest is doing relative to that market segment, which is a tiny market segment anyway. I don't know. It's hard to argue in counterfactuals, right? Because would there be a new whiz-bang Apple product? Well, it's tough. They're a big company. And they are on the quarterly game, right?
Like, okay, something Tim Cook handled really well that I don't think Jobs would have handled quite so well is when Warren Buffett and other – can we call them vultures? Can we do that? We're harassing him about stock price. He basically went – this is a real thing. He went to lunch with them and negotiated a deal where he would buy back a bunch of stock. basically making them rich.
Like, that is where Tim Cook is good. Tim Cook is good at, like, I could see Steve Jobs having a fit of morals about the Chinese government, right?
Also, you know, they do seem to have, although I think they're a little out of touch with the consumer, I think their core management team that we see a lot in events is good. You know, like Federici.
Federici's gorgeous, and I think that's what's important here.
But Tim Cook has been a master at keeping these long-term... executives around Bloomberg. I think it's Bloomberg just had a piece this week that talks about how Tim has done this strategy where when they're ready to retire, He'll put them kind of like in charge of just one thing with maybe one direct report that they can work at at like 40 percent capacity.
Almost like a fellow, really. Yes. Yeah.
Like a fellow position where they're kind of on board. They attend some meetings. They give some input. And then, you know, Apple gets to claim we're still getting advised by Phil Schiller or whatever. Phil Schill.
Or Johnny Ives leaves and you just like give his new design agency a massive contract and then press release. Johnny Ives is helping us out. Right.
Exactly. Exactly. It's fascinating.
Just real quick. It's like we shouldn't criticize Uncle Tim too much because the man is putting up the numbers.
Yeah. And I've also wondered too if as Apple became this everyday consumer brand where it's just – it's almost an agilist to a smartphone. iPhone is, um, geez, I'm losing it. I think maybe you needed a different kind of leadership. You needed a Tim Cook to steady some of that once it became something that just everyday people depended on, right?
Jobs was great for a company where the consumers were computer nerds and computer fans, and they love tech events and they love keynotes, right? But that's not who's buying iPhones anymore. And maybe it needs a different type of leader for that customer. And we're just not those customers.
It also depends on which era of jobs, right? Can you imagine a younger Steve Jobs and Twitter existing? Oh, God. He'd be canceled, right? This is a guy who famously would scream at people, right? Actually, you know, I would say it would be problematic if Steve was still around because there would be so many... Yeah, times have changed.
Right, there'd be so many people leaking to places like The Verge or Joanna Stern at The Journal.
He's lucky in a way he checked out when he did, you know, because he would not be able to... I mean, current Apple is very much, you know...
woke well it's not even just current apple right the tech press of that time oh he's a temperamental little bit the little prick yeah but it's because he's a genius and we have to tolerate geniuses and that would be he's abusive he's toxic he yes i i to conversely elon in the 80s probably would have gotten a more uh sympathetic shake right so
Interesting, but great question in a way. Got us going. Thank you very much. Appreciate that, 86, and hope to hear from you again. JSE comes in with a Spaceballs boost, 12,345 sats. So the culmination is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. He says, keep up the good work. Thank you, JSE. Appreciate that. Vamax comes in with a Jar Jar boost, 5,000 sats. Use a boost.
He says, I don't think there needs to be a second step for GitHub to have an issue after their database health checks failed. If I understood Chris's theory correctly, because Kubernetes and similar systems are stateless, if something fails, it's configured health or startup check. It may not exist. Nothing can or will be routed to it.
Yeah, we were, I think, remember when you and I were doing the last episode, because this was a couple weeks ago because of the travel, GitHub was having outages. And, man, does that screw up my day. Some of the stuff I use to prepare the show sometimes requires GitHub Actions. Nix uses Git to some of the stuff I use on Nix uses Git. So it's just like it messes my whole day up now in GitHub.
And I'm not even a developer. I'm almost a DevOps guy now. Oh, sorry. I just got sick. Savage. BitCryptic comes in with a row of ducks. 2,222 sats. I'm loving the JB collection. It shows great work, guys. Your comments around small language models and domain expertise got me thinking. Interesting. That could be cool. I also think it'd be cool just to...
Like I can become a domain expert on something for a solid minute, you know, really for like a couple of weeks. But then as I move on to the next thing, I really depend on my notes to remember a lot of the details.
And instead of taking notes, wouldn't it be interesting or if I could take notes and that would train an LLM and then I could have an LLM of all the things I've ever researched for a show or for anything we're setting up or God, that could be great. But then I see he's taking the next step and say, now I want to make it publicly available.
And, you know, wouldn't it be something if we start seeing that? I just love this sort of like kind of cyberpunk world where there's all these LLMs out there that have been hyper specialized, like some one person's expertise. You know what? My mechanic that works on my RV should do this because once that guy retires and I think he's just days away from retirement.
I don't know anybody that knows that knows what this guy knows. Nobody's no young guys are coming into that industry and no young guys are experts like this guy's an expert.
This guy knows how to take apart the suspension system and knows how to rebuild your cabinetry and replace flooring and fix slides and do roofing and know how to do electrical like the guys, the guys, a truck mechanic, an electrician, a carpenter. all these things in one and a solar installer, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And this is just so, so useful.
And once he's gone, that knowledge goes with him. It'd be great if we could have an LM where I could just ask questions. It's a great idea. A bit cryptic. Let us know how it goes. Bugdye Stormtrooper comes in with 7,042 sats. Uh, I heard a Gungan. There he is. Yeah, we, we, and we also, yeah, that's, he's throwing sats. Uh, what did you expect? I missed anyways.
I smuggled some bacon from the Death Star kitchen for you guys. It's a little stale because I don't know which pocket I hid it in. There he goes. Oh yeah, it turned out all right. That's not too bad, yeah. About the last quarterly being too negative. If I ever need a bad news delivered to me, the way you guys do it makes it not seem so bad. Oh, that's good.
We were worried about that last quarterly being a little bit of a downer. Hopefully, you know, we'll have a positive one soon. I think we're going to see a little dip in the market as we process rate cuts coming. And then hopefully by Christmas we'll have a little Santa rally. We'll see. I'm just trying to stay positive. I, of course, have no idea.
Yakip comes in with Spaceballs Boost, 12,345 cents. Yes.
That's amazing. I've got the same combination on my luggage.
And they're boosting for the first time. Congratulations. Thank you for taking the work. Finally found time to get the whole thing set up. Keep up the work. Thank you. We're an audience-funded show, so I really appreciate you taking the time to actually do that. Love hearing from you.
If you want to tell us anything about your setup, too, like your daily driver or something like that, you're looking for an excuse to boost in, let us know. We always love just learning about all that kind of stuff. You know, we're nerds. Thank you for boosting in. Purple Dog comes in with a Jar Jar Boost, 5,000 sats. Use a boost.
The new Copilot Autofix you mentioned is part of the GitHub Advanced Security. I work for a small company of 12 devs. Here we go. Here's an in-the-field report already. Awesome. We pay $21 a user a month for GitHub Enterprise plus $36 a user a month for Copilot Enterprise and Advanced Security and was quoted an extra 45 user a month if you want the Advanced Security. Oh, my God.
I'm breaking in that shutoff.
Jesus. So $21 per user per month for GitHub Enterprise, $36 per user per month for Copilot Enterprise, and then you stack an additional $45 per user per month on that if you want this advanced security. Whoa. Yeah, that's... That's where they're hoping to make all the billions back. Right there. Yeah. Ooh, thank you for that in-the-field report, Purple Dog. I'd love to know how it's working.
And if anybody is getting their value out of that. Is that even happening? Yikes. DG at PTC comes in with a Jar Jar Boost. Use a boost! Putting up the guardrails and checkpoints for junior devs was another reason for DevOps. The traditional release manager used to manually merge and release, providing a check on incoming code.
But after Git opened the floodgates for safe and fast merges, the new barriers had to be built to stop junior devs from blowing up production. That sounds about right.
I know. They're like the wily damn coyote. I agree with that.
That definitely happened. The Bitvarian man comes in with a row of ducks, 2,222 sats. Guys, your soundboard is legendary. I tell my wife I have some bacon for her every now and then, and she doesn't even know what that means. Yeah, you gotta get a soundboard. You gotta get a soundboard.
Regarding inflation, don't forget that through innovation and efficiency gains, we ought to be paying less for goods over time. In Broken Money, Lynn Alden states that most developed countries have expanded money supply by about 6% to 7% annually. So if you assume we're missing out on 3% deflation annually, then add 3% inflation.
You've got a good old 6% that they can't steal from us plebs via central banking. That they can steal from us. Beware of the grift, friends. Yeah, so inflation, you know, is a sneaky one. It's so insidious because the ad business has been dead, so we haven't been able to raise our rates. Revenue's down and the cost of business for everything is up at least 20%. It's just been a monster.
And long story short, I think we'll probably see inflation return in a year or so because the M2 money supply is already increasing for a couple of months. That means there's money liquidity being created and entering the system. When you increase the supply of money, You increase the supply of money going after goods.
Now, if you don't increase the amount of goods, you have more money going after fewer or the same amount of goods, which means they can raise prices or they will raise prices. But that'll be probably for a little while. I mean, it's going to take a while for all this to hit, but I don't think inflation is done. They're lowering rates before they've gotten inflation down to their 2% target.
They're capitulating when the real rate of inflation probably isn't 3%. It's probably more like 5% or 6%. So we're getting cheaper money. And the money printer is already on. So loans and things like that will be cheaper for big corporations. Banks are already getting more money. So I think inflation probably returns.
And if you want to know what the hell we're talking about, why it works like this, I agree. Go read Broken Money by Lynn Alden. Fantastic book. Thank you, everybody, who boosted in. Great boost batch there. We had 32 different people either stream sats or boost in. Thank you, everybody, who also just hit that stream button. We really appreciate it. And we stacked a very impressive 625,092 sats.
Nice. If you'd like to boost in and get on the fun, try out Fountain FM. 1.1 just came out, and it's a killer. Of course, Podverse and Castomatic and a bunch of other great apps are listed at podcastapps.com. You can also boost from the Podcast Index. Check one of those options out, support the show, or become a member at coder.show slash member.
Either way, we appreciate everybody that participates in the Value for Value. If you enjoy the show, want to keep it going, it's a great way to do it. And we'll have links in the show notes to make it easy for you. Now, before we run, we had to touch on this because it goes back to the very beginning of the show. After a long, weird path, Microsoft has donated Mono to the Wine Project.
After 23 years. I mean, kind of interesting this is happening. You know, if you think back, Mike, Miguel de Caza created, well, he created the GNOME desktop. Then, you know, he created Ximarian. And then they created Ximian, which was a .NET-like platform. They were creating essentially a .NET clone. Then Ximian was acquired by Novell in 2003, right?
And now here we are, because eventually Microsoft ended up with it. It's a long story. And Microsoft is donating the Mono project to Wine, where they will now be the holders of the code base. Now, of course, Microsoft maintains a modern fork of the mono runtime in its .NET slash runtime repo. So they've been moving workloads to that for a while. That work is now complete.
They don't use this mono code anymore. They're done with it. So they're giving the original mono tree now that they recommend everybody else use what they ship. So that's to be noted, but... I don't know. What's your reaction of this? What a crazy story Mono has been to end up here.
I mean, yeah, we were talking about this in our Slack, and I think it's... I was a little like, what the hell? But I was convinced that, you know, wine is probably the appropriate place for this to go. And better than just letting it die? Well, yeah, because there's going to be a lot of legacy applications that...
you know, that for whatever reason are difficult to port to, let's say, you know, the new .NET Core or .NET.
Yeah, and I wonder if the Wine project has any intentions, if they're just going to be the stewards of it, if they incorporate it somehow. Yeah. We'll see. It's just, I don't know, just all of a sudden, just one day it's an issue on their GitHub. By the way. We're moving all this to the Wine Project. Just like that. Just after all these years, just, oh, here's an update, quick update, by the way.
We're done with this, and we're giving it to Wine. It's just so weird the way these things finally play out. And it was so deeply divisive in the Linux community. And my even willingness to talk about Mono was divisive and got attacked in the Linux Action Show. Oh, there was a lot of hate. Oh, yeah. Yeah, they came after Brian and I for being willing to talk positively about Mono for even a minute.
It was wild. And now here we are. And nobody cares, I guess. But you know what I care about? Where people should go to find you throughout the week. You got anywhere you want to send them?
Go check out alice.dev for some automation ETL goodness. That's right. We can move data for you automatically from legacy systems.
Yeah. It's like hiring movers. Hire a professional to do it for you. That's right. Right? I'll tell you what. Hey, go find me on the Nosterverse place. If you go to chrislas.com, it'll take you to a primal page where you can get my key. You can follow me in apps. Check it out. It's good for you. I'm also on WeaponX, Chris LES.
Of course, you can reach out at coder.show slash contact, or you can send us a boost. Links to what we talked about today, that's at coder.show slash 586. And then if you want something else to listen to, a bunch of great shows over at jupiterbroadcasting.com. We just broke down some Rust drama in the Linux kernel, Linux unplugged, and then on self-hosted.
I bet you we'll be talking about our new colo self-hosted infrastructure if you're curious about that. Thanks so much for tuning in to this week's episode of the Coder Radio Program. We'll see you right back here next week.