Our reaction to Google's major legal blow, forcing them to open the Play Store wide, our thoughts on the world's lovefest with AI-generated podcasts, and the next tool Microsoft is porting over from Linux.
This is Coda Radio, episode 590, recorded on October 8th, 2024. Hey friend, welcome in to Jupiter Broadcasting's weekly talk show, taking a pragmatic look at the art and the business, the software development, and the world of technology. My name is Chris, and joining us from a rather stormy location, it's our host, Mr. Dominic. Hello, Mike. Yar, mount your gator and get your jaeger.
It's time for Milton. Oh, God. I guess that's the spirit you have to have down there. I mean, you got to get rich and get a second home or something, you know?
Yeah.
Get some good VC money, get a crazy AI idea going, and just get to a cabin somewhere out of there when these storms come rolling in.
I know. The Pacific Northwest is looking better every day.
You know, you move here, we'll have one of our 100-year earthquakes, though.
Of course. It's me. That's true. I lived in Jersey. Sandy happened, right? I got stranded with that. Yep. Actually, remember, we did a live show the afternoon when Sandy was hitting that night.
Yeah, I do remember that. It was crazy.
The audio was like, you could hear the tree smacking the window.
Yeah, I mean, and now Milton's on its way to Florida as we record. Should never have taken a stapler. Is that looking like it's going to be in – are you in the path of that? Direct it. Yeah, it's a pretty – yeah, that's what I was thinking.
So it's fun riding it out. We're good, though. We're far enough away we should be okay. It's just always fun. The fun part about it is explaining to most of my clients who are all out of state that I voluntarily live in a place that is trying to –
kill me right yeah yeah and you got gators you got these storms yeah yeah one guy sent me a text the one word and a question mark moving so yeah yeah meanwhile our our uh mount adams volcano here in the pacific northwest has begun rumbling again yeah so you're looking at like old school pompeii vibes
Get out of here. But yeah, you got to take that portable battery unit you've got and make sure you get it charged up and don't get it wet. Oh, yeah. It's charged up. It's off the ground. Good. There we go. Wow. So we are doing a double this week as we record just to kind of have buffer, just a case and things like that.
So we will not be live next week, but there's so much to get into and we want to try to get to it as fast as we can this week. Because Google has been ordered to support alternative app stores and payment methods in the Play Store. Payment methods as well. This is that lawsuit with Epic Games. Yesterday as we record, so a couple days ago as you were listening to this, a U.S.
judge decided that Google Play has to, or the Google Play Store is an illegal monopoly. And Google has been ordered to make multiple changes as a result. Google is going to need to allow Android users to download rival app stores like the Epic Game Store from within Google Play.
Plus, it's required to allow third-party app stores to distribute Google Play apps unless the developers opt out of providing their apps through alternative app stores. Google can no longer require developers to use Google Play Billing.
Also, developers will also be able to link to alternative installation options in their apps and will also have the ability to let customers know about other ways to make purchases outside of Google's ecosystem. And Google is now prohibited from offering carriers and device makers financial incentives to preinstall the Play Store. Now, the revenue stream gone.
Verizon's going to be so mad.
But Google can charge for, quote, reasonable measures. to implement and preserve user safety and security related to apps and app stores downloaded through Google Play.
And four white shoe law firms just got their next yacht. Defining what that actually means is going to be... Yeah.
Google has to keep these changes in place for three years, and it begins on November 1st, 2024.
Unless that magical tool called an injunction gets put in place on the injunction. It's an injunction-ception. So there's...
It's like a stay, maybe it's called. It's an appeal stay. It's a stay, yeah. Yeah, Google, they say they confirmed they will appeal it. Shocker. Plans to ask the court to just hold on while they try to sort all this out. You know, Google tries to make the point. This is a quote from their blog. Android is open, and Google Play is not the only way to get apps.
The decision fails to take into account that Android is an open platform, and developers have always had many options in how to distribute their apps. In fact... and I'm sure they're probably talking about outside the States. Most Android devices come preloaded with two or more app stores right out of the box.
Developers have other options too, such as offering their apps directly to users from their website. As long as they have sideloading turned on. So they're coming in hot saying, you know, this is the whole thing's bogus. It's out. It's already open enough. People can sideload apps, yada, yada, yada, yada. And that's going to be, I think their core argument. And I will say,
It is why I switched to a Pixel, the App Store stuff, because I could sideload another App Store. This one is not really even an App Store. It's called Obtanium. And it's a front end to just pull APKs off of GitHub and GitLab and other sources. And it just manages the updates for you. And there is no App Store. It's not even using F-Droid.
And if I'm going to use this phone for serious things like really private family communications or finance, I don't know, man. I got to be able to get to the file system. I got to be able to install my own apps. I don't even want some of these apps to go through Apple or Google. That's interesting. Yeah.
Yeah, to me, they're more of a risk than they are an asset because there's a core set of apps. I've vetted the projects or the applications myself. I know I'm not typical, but I'm just saying the openness of the Android platform as it stands today has been enough for me to use. I have F-Droid, Play, and I have Obtanium. And I have three app stores on one device, and it all works really well.
I don't know. Maybe Google kind of has a point here. Maybe I don't need to be able to install F-Droid from the Play Store. I know it would make it a lot better for these projects. It's way better for them, obviously. And maybe it avoids people getting scam apps more.
Yeah, I could see that. I mean there's a lot in this ruling, and let's for maybe one second just pretend like this day is not going to happen, which it's – Yeah, of course it will. It's going to happen, right? I wonder – so I read a bunch of takes on this by various outlets, legal experts.
It seems like the thing that particularly annoyed the judge was Google's sweetheart deals with manufacturers and carriers. Yeah.
Yeah, I noticed that too, yeah.
And I almost feel like I could see where the judge is coming from. And my concern, I guess, is that all that stuff will stand, which fine, you know, who cares if Verizon loses a few shekels on, you know, pre-installing crap on your phone. But the store stuff doesn't seem like it's on the firmest of footing, right?
Particularly, you know Google, in their effort to throw everything in the kitchen sink at this, is going to cite Judge Daniels' ruling in the Apple case, which the plaintiff was also epic, right? And say, well, hang on, they got to keep their app store and blah, blah, blah. That's precedent. How come we don't? I don't see how they don't make that move, right?
Yeah, I think your take is – I think your take is spot on. Like some of this is going to definitely get loosened up. Some of the – because Google can argue that some of this is a burden on them, that it's going to cost them more than that they're ever going to be able to fairly charge developers, et cetera. So they're going to be able to argue that point as well. But I do think you're right.
Some of these things are going to stick. What I find kind of interesting is how quick – November 1st, that's – as far as – At the speed of the courts, that's not a lot of time.
No, that's unusual. Like that's breakneck speed.
Google's lawyers might be working through the holiday. Coming up. I don't know. Part of me would love to see it. I kind of wish it could happen, all of it. Because I do think these devices are people's primary computing devices for a lot of folks. Oh, yeah. And it would make it more like an actual computer.
Because if you get a phone, say you go buy a new phone or somebody gifts you a phone, you get it, it's going to have the Play Store on there. And you're not necessarily going to know how to sideload applications, etc., but... Is it so bad if Epic wants to add their own store? I'm not so sure. Maybe, maybe not. Probably all depends on implementation.
Well, it would be interesting if it was a kind of freer market there. What would users do? Are they really going to sign up to the Epic store? Is Epic going to have to do some forcing mechanism like making Fortnite only in the Epic store or cheaper?
Or some sort of – like you can buy the M-Gain currency for – I don't know, you know, like something, right?
10% less, right? Whatever.
Yeah. Do you think it would create a race to the bottom, like Gigatex will say in the live chat? Like if you have more app stores, does that put somehow more downward pressure on app prices and make it,
I mean, maybe for things power users might need or want. I have a sinking suspicion, actually, what would end up happening is it would kind of, for our audience and us, kind of a perverse effect. It would prove out that people really do prefer the Google Play Store because there'd be little to no change in user behavior.
I have no doubt about that. Maybe, like you say, Fortnite players or some other popular application or game. Yeah. They all want their own little fiefdoms, right? They all want their own little kingdoms. And once you become a big enough app developer or whatever, it's not good enough to use the platform store. You've got to have your own ecosystem.
Yeah.
I don't know. We'll see. I'll keep an eye on it and see if there's any updates and we'll cover it in the show. Coder.show slash membership. The Coder Radio program has been listener-supported for over a year now, and we're incredibly grateful for that. We give you an ad-free version of the show as a thank you as well as the Coderly, which there's quite a few of them now.
So if you've just become a member, there's a back catalog you can download directly. You get your own private RSS feed, and you get a special edition of the show just for you. Then, of course, we also have our boosters who like to just do it at their own accord, at their own schedule, at their own amount, as they see fit.
And as a thank you, we read their messages that are above 2,000 sats on the show each episode, which always turns out some great organic content that we never planned on, some of the best conversations. So I'm just really grateful for your support, and if you enjoy the Coder Radio program, I hope you consider doing it. That's coder.show slash membership, or you can boost with a new podcast app.
You can find those at podcastapps.com. So last week, we played a clip of that Google Deep Dive podcast where it had an existential crisis when it revealed it was an AI. That thing has gone viral in the last week. And the Wall Street Journal has – well, it's kind of a puff piece overall. But there's a few notable tidbits in here that I wanted to pull out for you.
So this Notebook LM thing has been around for a while now. But the audio feature – That came out a little bit more recently, I think in August, where it generates the podcast. And I was just experimenting with it this morning. They've made tweaks and updates to it this morning and how it works.
But the thing that I find kind of interesting about this is, well, this is really Google's first viral AI hit since ChatGPT has been a thing for a couple of years. And this is also from like a little Skunk Works Google Labs division that that kind of has these one-off projects where they kind of have their own philosophy that doesn't necessarily jive with the rest of Google.
Should we be talking about this? Because if Google management realizes these guys are still there, they're probably going to get rid of them.
Yeah, they'll muck it up real good, right? So I guess it's kind of fascinating. So the small lean mean team inside Google that was able to no doubt leverage all of the tooling and voice work and all of that Gemini work that's been done by the rest of the Google company. But this little strike group created this notebook LM and then this podcasting aspect was another small team.
And they were just trying to come up with ways to make it useful. And that's how they came on this. They said it was also counterintuitive, but to make it sound more natural, they had to kind of make them rougher, as they put it. They said, quote, if you have two perfect scripts talking to each other in complete sentences, nobody would listen to it. It would just sound too robotic.
Instead, they had to make them speak like actual people and put like and um and you know. Sometimes they pause or even stammer a little bit. They reinforce each other's points with totally and oh, 100 percent. And yeah, which is sometimes really weird. But, you know, they try to make it conversational. And you're not going to believe this.
But, of course, there's already a group of folks that are quite worked up about this. They're concerned that it's going to collapse the podcast industry because essentially going to dump a bunch of.
podcasts onto the market and then they're going to get you know dynamic ads which are then going to just completely dump this rate of ads that remain um and so listen notes has been tracking how many ai podcasts that are on the market now and this is according to their list that they have on github there are now 282 ai generated podcasts most of them hosted on anchor
Most of them, not all, but most of them generated by this Google Notebook LLM deep dive tool. And they've put them out. They've got full branding. Some of them have sponsorships. They've got RSS feeds. Most of them, because I mean, I looked at like probably a dozen. I listened to like two. Not one of them that I reviewed disclosed that it was an AI podcast.
Nowhere in there does it say this is an auto-generated show. It makes it – in fact, a lot of them present themselves as experts going in deep or they'll say something like – they'll kind of work in deep dive somehow somewhere in there. But they'll never admit to being – well, the ones I looked at don't admit to being an automatically generated podcast. Or even like Notebook LM. And it's wild.
And they sound decent enough that they can kind of trick you, I think, if you didn't know this was a thing in the market. And here we are. Here we are like a few weeks after this thing has become an official tool. There's already almost 300 podcasts. I don't know, man. To me, it's just, I don't know, it's probably just a flash in the pan. I mean, these things aren't really good enough yet.
I don't know.
Here's what I do now. My LinkedIn is, I would say, give it a week going to be full of, you know, marketing gurus telling you how you can use Google, whatever, right? Notebook ML, right? To generate a, you know, lead generation podcast for your business. There's going to be a ton of this, like digital agencies and SEO firms are just going to, no offense if you're running one of those, right?
But I have a feeling there's going to be like a little niche market of people.
Corporate branded podcasts that are auto generated. Yes. Yeah.
Because I get, right now, the big hotness is... I actually find this annoying, because sometimes I do want to read the content, because I try to keep up, right? And everybody has... All these guys have decided that if it's not video, it doesn't count. I hate video content. Unless it's your beautiful old Linux action shows. I just don't want to watch video content. I don't like...
Because it's like if you watch video content, it's the only thing you can be doing, right?
Yeah, generally. And if you're just tabbing out, then you might as well just be listening to audio.
Right. So I actually do like the branded but somewhat helpful blog post is how I prefer to consume things.
Especially if you're looking for information about something, having to skim through a 14 minute video where they're going to have an intro, they're going to have a like and subscribe, they're going to have a sponsor plug and then they're going to have something else in there. And you're just trying to get the it's like it's like the old meme about.
Recipes, how you have to read their life story before you get the recipe, that's what YouTube is for anything that's instructional. It can be useful if you need a visual demonstration, no doubt about it. I find it very useful when I'm looking how to fix something on the car.
But if I'm just looking for information about how to install a piece of software and I want to know what the flags are for when I launch the application, I don't want to watch a video for that. I just want something written down.
Well, you're not going to get it. You're going to get endless podcasts that are very similar and reskinned, tanking the ad markets.
The only way this would be useful is if I had all the knobs. Like if I could give it the RSS feeds and I could tune what they focus on, what they actually go deep on, what stupid stuff they don't bother saying, what they pretend they are. If I could tweak all the knobs and generate a personalized feed of news that is actually useful and consumable, All right, make that a product for me, Google.
But I don't want a podcast directory that is just full of AI-generated podcasts that are all essentially talking the same nonsense. Let's be honest. They say a few interesting things and they do go in a few interesting details. But a lot of it is analogies and generals that they just kind of agree with. Somebody will make an analogy and then somebody says, oh, yeah, that's exactly right.
And it's like, well, that's barely right. That's what a lot of it is, and it's not very high-quality content, so I can't imagine any of it's going to pull down a lot of views. What I can imagine is it is going to soak up a lot of dynamic ads, and I can also imagine it's going to make browsing podcast directories a lot more cluttered, and there's already a lot of noise in there.
So that I'm not super thrilled about. But, you know, if I could actually have a tool like this that I could curate and generate and it was decent to listen to and they made interesting, insightful points. Well, that would be great, but I don't think that's possible with an LLM because the LLM has to go off of stuff that it already knows.
And that's where the human component is always going to come in, is the original analysis with experience and context and understanding and a little bit of opinion in there sometimes. And that's going to be the unique content that the LLMs will then consume. But somebody has to be out there ahead of that generating the unique stuff that the machine is going to eat up and spit back out.
I hope you think I'm right.
I don't see why not. I mean, it's kind of unclear what Google strategy with this stuff is overall other than, hey, look at us. We can do it, too.
Okay. Well, okay. So since you brought it up, before we move on, do you think they're going to kill it and just like maybe roll some small aspect of it into another?
Hard not to think Google is going to kill everything, right? They kill all their products. It's really on what time scale are they killing it?
Well, and this has to be massively expensive.
Right. And it's notably separate from Gemini, which is their main AI thrust. Right.
Yeah, though supposedly it's using Gemini for some of the analysis on the back end, but they're not really branding it like that if it's true.
I don't know. You got to think like a PM who wants to nuke everything.
I will continue to play with it because where I would find it useful and have played with just briefly and it's not useful enough yet is I gave it like 10 sources on a topic. And it was PDFs and it was YouTube videos and it was multiple YouTube videos and multiple articles. Oh, I did this for – I also did this for the Sonos app drama. I just wanted to see what its take was.
And your buddy Paul Theriot has, like, the chronicle of all of the Sonos app drama. From, like, you know, Sonos has a new app to, like, everything, to the CEO apology, all of it. So I fed it all of Theriot's coverage. I fed it some YouTuber coverage. And I fed it some sort of, like, breakdown of the problems that somebody had in a PDF. And I had it generate me a podcast about the Sonos app. Sonos.
Sorry, too many Sonos. The Sonos stuff. And it was decent. It was pretty good. And again, if I could go in there and have it tuned a little bit, like maybe that'd be a way for me to take a bunch of research and distill it down and listen to it while I'm driving and maybe inform my coverage. But not yet. It's not there. And it doesn't seem like that's the direction they're going.
But that's the kind of tooling if it was a tool that I could use. That I would take advantage of. And I think a lot of us could. You know, something comes out. You could throw a new version of Python comes out. You want to know what it does? You throw the release notes in there and it makes a podcast for you about it just for you.
If it could actually get to the right stuff and they could make it entertaining, probably not. But maybe.
It's going to be so abused.
Four score and seven boosts to go.
All right. We got some business to get to this week. Buckle up, Mr. Dominick, because we have some boosts. And Maximilian comes in as our baller this week with 1,100,000 sets. Hey, Richard! And he writes, Maximilian writes, Jupiter Party member here, love all the shows, but Coder is my favorite. I'm boosting in to support Python as the official language of the Coder Radio program.
The snakes have done it. That's a massive baller boost by Maximilian. And as is tradition, as a thank you, we have a new song to celebrate the official language of the Coder Radio program.
So splits and frameworks make
There you have it. The snakes are in charge. Python is the official language of the Coder Radio program. Thank you to Maximilian. You are our baller this week. He also supports us as a Jupiter Party member, too, so he's just a great guy.
Nice.
That's pretty great. Adversary 17, or Adversary 17, your choice comes in with 91,442 sats, which is no shabby amount either. I hoard that which all kind covet. He writes, I'm emptying my fountain because we have Clippy that sort of works already. Install the Rust toolchain, and you've got Clippy. What is he referring to? Do you have... Clippy with the Rust toolchain.
Did we talk about doing some Googling really quick to see if I can? We have notes.jupiterbroadcasting.com, by the way. I don't see about that. Yeah, but follow up. Let me know. I appreciate the boost. That's also a fantastic boost. Hybrid sarcasm is also a baller this week. With 100,000 sats. What hurricane? Thanks, Mike, for sacrificing your prep time for us listeners. We don't deserve you.
He sent that in this morning as a thank you. No problem. He loves the listeners. He loves the listeners. We stay here for the people. Thank you for the mega boosts, adversaries, Maximilian and Hybrid. We really appreciate it. We appreciate all the boosts, but those are some really great ones. BHH32 is back with the boosts, and he comes in with 20,000 sets. Boost! It's a nice one.
He says, I realize a lot of things are Electron or web apps. Yeah. That is accurate. However, I believe, and I'm most likely wrong, that native applications are better because of the native integration that can happen. The reason things are currently web apps or Electron is because that's what we've allowed. There is the demand for cross-platform, and we didn't have anything else at the moment.
However, with the rise of Rust, Go, and other languages, all we have to do is put specific config calls in the code and then compile once or twice if you're going to ARM. I create it, and I am still working on a tail-scale GUI applet for Cosmic written in libcosmic. However, theoretically, it would run on macOS or Windows, just minus the panel integration.
I did end up creating a couple of tutorials and posting them on my website if anyone is interested. His website is bhh32.com. It's the first blog I've ever written on, I've ever posted to my site. Oh, I guess he's had the blog. This is the first one he's ever written. I enjoy it, so I hope you all enjoy it as much as I enjoyed writing it. Thank you, BHH. Yeah, it's super cool. Appreciate that.
Gotta love Taleskill.
I do, man. I am all up in that Tailscale biz. They really should sponsor the show more. Tailscale, if you're out there, come on in. We like you because I have all my infra on Tailscale. Tomato comes in with 7,222 sats. Put some macaroni and cheese on there, too.
Regarding the California AI bill, in that clip, Newsom almost sounded like he was going to push for regulation for the use of AI as a tool for specific purposes. Then he went off the rails, got drunk, and watched The Terminator again. Ha, ha, ha. You know, there's actually a story out there that Biden decided that he wanted to take he wanted to write his AI executive order after watching Top Gear.
Oh, God. A new Top Gear movie. Go look it up. It's a real story. I think it's a cover story, but it's it's out there.
I find that that's just it's that's too on the nose.
It's crazy, right? Tomatoes says, I do think there's a big need for AI regulation, but completely differently. Anywhere that a human judgment is needed, anywhere that logic behind a decision is needed to be reviewed, AI is a poor tool. There will technically be a reason for its decision, but not in a way that makes sense to people.
That ought to be explicitly forbidden in certain sensitive areas like policing, courts, insurance adjustments, etc. Ah, interesting. Yeah. I've never really thought about specific industries like don't use AI to do these tasks. That's interesting. It says he's glad you made it through the hurricane. All right. Don't forget that the reason Huawei stops shipping Android updates is because the U.S.
government forced them to. God forbid a Chinese company have military contracts, unlike literally every U.S. tech company. Huawei does seem to have some cool devices. I sometimes have some FOMO. They do have a fun name, Huawei. Huawei. Thank you very much, Tomato. It was good to hear from you. VT52 comes in with a Jar Jar Boost 5,000 cents. You're so boost! Dtrace, maybe it is eBPF after all.
He says, the project is a work in progress and allows existing... Oh, yeah, okay, eBPF for Windows. They're working on eBPF for Windows and moving some of the eBPF tool chains and APIs from Million Linux ecosystem to run on top of Windows. Man, how good is Microsoft taking the best bits of Linux and just grafting it on top of that NT kernel, right? They're just so good at that. Wow.
They're going to make an API compatibility later with eBPF Linux kernel apps. That's interesting. Look at WSL Go. Spectris comes in with Rodex. I have the second gen AirPod Pros. Conversation awareness is great. Walking the dog, I can stop to talk to the neighbors anytime. No grabbing my ear to pause or pull them out. Okay, so I was wondering about that.
Don't people still think it's weird that you have them in when you're talking to them? Because I've noticed two types of people in the world. Those who will just start talking to you. I had a guy scare the crap out of me. Just came, walked up behind me, and I had silence mode on because there's people out doing yard work. And he starts talking to me, scared the crap out of me.
And then I have other people who won't talk to me. And they'll point to the ear. You got your AirPods in? Did you take your AirPods out? And they won't talk to you. So I feel like this conversational awareness feature is good, but it doesn't solve like the social stuff. I don't know. I think I'm going to pick something up that is conversational awareness though and try it out.
Did you ever end up getting – you did get a new set of AirPods.
I did, but I turned that off. Did you? You didn't like it. I didn't even. Yeah, I tried it, I guess, once by accident. I didn't even know what it was. You know, I this again might be an old band thing. I just use my AirPods the way I use the original AirPods. Right. To listen to, you know, crazy books about politics. And that's it. I usually only have one in.
Oh, yeah. The one pod is my kind of compromise. But then I worry that I'm like wrecking the battery of the one pod.
You are. Well, they also bother my ears after long enough because I'm just a sweaty, greasy kind of guy. So I have to switch them. It's a whole thing. Q-tips are involved. Don't write me. I know you're not supposed to do that with Q-tips, but I do obsessively.
All you got to do is, first of all, you get your $300 AirPods. And then, of course, you got to have your $1,200 phone that you pair it to. And then you get yourself a $600 watch. And then what you can do is raise your wrist and tap your fingers to pause the audio. Problem solved.
Yes, that is a $2,200 solution, but sure.
Something like that, yeah. All right. That wraps up the Boost segment for this week. We had some streamers out there, 17 of you. Altogether, while you were listening and streaming those stats, you sent in 20,000. 477 sats. Thank you very much, our sat streamers. We see you and appreciate you.
Combined with our boosters, and of course we had some nice baller boosts this week, we stacked an incredible 1,146,663 sats. You're so much better. Thank you very much, everybody. We really appreciate that. If you'd like to get in on the fun, you just need a new podcast app and some stats. We'll have links in the show notes for that to make it really easy. Fountain.fm is my go-to.
Cast-O-Matic's great on iOS. Podcast Guru, Guru, lots of them over at podcastapps.com. And, of course, our members out there supporting us with their autopilot support at coder.show slash membership. Now, we won't have any boosts next week because it is going to be a prerecord, but do send them in because then it'll become clear why soon.
I'm looking for examples of companies that have done dev relations well. So boost in if you know of a good example or... A bad one. I'm looking for those two of companies that have good or bad dev relations, either departments or attempts, schemes, whatever it might be. And my reasoning will become clear soon. Mr. Dominic, is there anywhere you want to send the good people?
For all your ETL automation needs, go to alice.dev.
Oh.
The pod has got an X handle, at Coder Radio Show, which is probably just useful for when we're going live, I guess, because we don't... I don't know. I don't know. Man, it's you. I don't know how you do your social media, but if you want to do it, at Coder Radio Show, okay? Just fine. There you know. You have it now. Links to what we talked about today. Yeah, we got those.
590.
See, it's a simple formula. It's Coder.show slash... All right, that's fine. You got it. Contact forms over there, RSS feeds over there as well, and also the whole back catalog. And we'd love to have you join us. We won't be live next week, but when we are live, we put it in a podcasting 2.0 app or we have it at jupiterbroadcasting.com slash calendar.
Thanks so much for joining us on this week's episode of the Coder Radio Program, and we'll see you right back here next week.