Josh
Appearances
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
To kind of circle back to a talking point in the podcast, I'd just like to find more congruence between how I show up and then how I feel. And then for that to feel like it's enough and not that it needs to be different or it needs to change.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'd say a majority of them, yes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I think frustration is good because when I, you know, I've worked really hard on a lot of things for five, 10 years, and that frustration has pushed me to keep working on it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
That's a great thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
It does... Give me that ability to start working on something that I'm very fearful of. We talked about statistics and to tackle a big project. I feel very anxious that I'm not capable and prepared. But that anxiety on the other side of it is, well, I should do it to be able to. Or I could do it to be able to then learn it and understand it and become more proficient at it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And it probably keeps me from doing anything that would actually be hurtful or like something that would actually like put me at risk. So it does keep me safe.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
That's very important.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
That's very powerful, yes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I would say the thing that overwhelmingly comes to mind is that I really care about other people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I would say it shows me that I have... high expectations that I can achieve something and can be successful at what I do and work toward, and that I'm just on one side of it or experiencing the side where I'm working toward that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
It's very powerful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
It's very important.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
It's very important that I...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
like experience sadness um because i can also experience and understand other people who are going through the same thing so my mom um is having a bunch of tests done to figure out why she's having certain symptoms and to be able to empathize with her um and kind of share my feelings about what she's going through is very important to me well yeah that is that a beautiful thing
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, it's very beautiful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, that's right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, I would say guilt is... The thing I appreciate about it is that it shows me that I can do something else to... You know, I can live up to the expectations that I've set for other people and for myself. So I can accomplish real. I can have really big achievements and I can find success. I don't like shame as much. Shame just generally feels bad.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
So I don't know how many positives I can find in that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
It's kind of that same idea as guilt. It allows me to improve in areas that I feel like I have a lot of room to grow. So it shows me... You're honest. Yes. Yeah, that's exactly right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
It's humbling. I think it allows me to keep a so-called level head and realize everyone's going through similar things, everyone's struggling, and that inadequacy is part of understanding that there are a lot of similarities.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
It's allowed me to develop a lot of independence and allowed me to have so many experiences that I don't think I would have had if I wouldn't have felt lonely and sought out community and things that I think would help me develop as a person and become more capable.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
They don't sound very good. I would say they allow you to kind of function around other people in more socially desirable ways.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
It's very important. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, I think that's right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I would say it's another driving force. It really pushes me to do everything in my power. prevent it, basically, to restore hope.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. One, it was it was kind of nerve wracking for me to ask if we could we could do that. But I thought it'd be really fun because I listened to you on the psychiatry and psychotherapy podcast. You had a fantastic interview with Dr. David Pewter and you talked about imposter syndrome and vulnerability. And I was like, oh, that would be really fun to almost recreate that on my podcast as well.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Kind of struggling to come up with something else.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
That's very important.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, I think that would be one of the most important parts of it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I chose that I have, I think it shows also that I have high expectations and that I can see things through and be, I can, I can be successful. Um, and that anger is a part of like almost the friction of not, not, not achieving it, um, or being able to do it. Um, so it's kind of in line with frustration and anger is something that in my childhood I felt like was just
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
solely negative and solely kind of like used in a really kind of like aggressive judgmental way. And I think having it in this context is way more helpful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
They're very real, yes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Incredibly powerful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Very important, yes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And I went into it really nervous and kind of unsure. And honestly, having the ability to experience that firsthand just connected so many of the dots around the concepts you discuss at length in the podcast and in your books, which I found very helpful for myself. So I thought it was an absolute honor and really insightful and helpful to get a good sense of what those techniques really mean.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, I would agree with that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
The number that comes to mind is around 20.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Is that enough? I think that's plenty, yes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
You know, I've experienced a little bit of sadness during our conversation when you relayed stories about people you've worked with and their life experiences. And that was really beautiful, actually, to do that on the podcast. I would say maybe a 10 or 15. 10 to 15, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'd say that's probably 15 as well.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Like 10. Is that enough inadequacy? I think that's plenty. I think, yeah, I think that's plenty. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'd say 20. I'd say 20. I think loneliness is a good driver of kind of getting out and exploring the world.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
20.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Maybe 5. Anger doesn't feel as helpful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'd say I'm not attractive.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
100%.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'd say that's like 90%.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
That's probably 90% too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
It's like 85%.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Because it's assuming that for all of the people who exist to perceive me, I'm saying that no one would find me attractive.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Because I would be assuming that people have the same... Preferences and standards. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
People have people there, you know, individual differences, really powerful and very real. So I think everyone's, you know, everyone has their own preference and own thoughts.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, it's an unrealistic standard.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Because, I would say, because it's untrue. So it's adhering to something that's untrue.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Makes me, I'm not sure I have a good answer for that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
That sounds great.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay. Let's say Corey. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, of course.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I think you look great. I think you're a very attractive person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, I'm being honest with you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Maybe 50.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Huh? What's that?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay. I'll start off as the negative Joshua.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yes, of course.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I do know who you are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. I think that's untrue. I think you're just being very critical for no reason and just trying to bring me down.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I think I won that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'd say big. Big or huge? I'd just say big.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
You know, Joshua, you... You're disfigured, and because of that, you're unlovable. And that's an unavoidable thing you're going to have to deal with.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
The last thing I think we talked a lot and I'm kind of a little nervous to ask this, but we talked a lot about team. Could we role play a little bit to give an idea to the listeners of what that is actually like?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, so you had acne growing up, and now you have scars as a result, and that makes you look different from everyone else.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
What's that, Joshua?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
So who won? You won. Big or small? It was big. Big or huge? It was massive.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
There was a lot of acceptance there. There was acknowledgement of things that you've done, I've done. And it was just... felt so authentic and so um so okay with you know the way things are and um controlling the controllables and um not letting that get in your way and be something that's like defeating and draining
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, that's right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, actually, that, you know, I just checked the time, and very sadly, I do need to end this conversation and... It's been fantastic, and I don't want to say it's been a dream, but to be able to talk to you and experience this, David, has been a tremendous opportunity.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
So if they haven't listened to a podcast, they would have a sense of what they could expect.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay, I can do two minutes, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. Well, even if he is trying to bullshit me, it's okay to have what are thought of as flaws. And there are plenty of things that I have going for me that provide a lot of richness and value to my life. And those... make me more attractive to people and provide me with a sense of meaning and really allow me to then help and contribute to the lives of other people.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
So regardless of any superficial appearances, that doesn't define me as a person.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'd say that I won. Big or small? I'd say big. Big or huge? I'd say huge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, well, I could fail at what I'm currently doing, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to be successful in any other host of possibilities and avenues of becoming a professional or providing for a family or contributing to the lives of my family and friends. So defining success in a very small way, I might fail.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
But broadly, I think I'm going to live a life that I ultimately want to live because I'm working hard at it and I have a lot of things going for me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, I think that's untrue. I might struggle and I might have to work hard to kind of get out of that sometimes. But I think ultimately I'm going to be happy and I'm going to be fulfilled and I'm going to be surrounded by people that I love and people who love me. And that is worth more than any superficial success or failure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I think I'm winning. Big or small? I'd say I'm winning big. Big or huge? Huge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, I don't feel anxious at all. Let's say zero.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Zero.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Zero.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Zero.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Zero. Embarrassed. Zero, surprisingly, for doing this on a podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Zero.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Zero. And angry. Zero. I think that would be a negative if it could be.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'll be sure to reach out. I'm going to share everything that you have worked on, all the projects you have going on, all the all the products. And I hope people really do check out the podcast you produce. Check out the books you've written and check out the app. Feeling great. It's been an absolute honor. You're a legend. And, you know, you've taught me more in this two hour podcast than ever.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I think almost anyone else has ever taught me about just being, you know, so warm and caring.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, it's great to see both of you as well. David, you're looking handsome as always. And Rhonda, you're looking incredible as well. Thank you. Tell us more. The one thing – I've reflected on this quite a bit and I've given it a lot of thought knowing that we were going to discuss it. And on my end, like what has it changed for me?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And has there been something that's been overwhelming enough to like, oh, wow, I can see this as a difference in my life. And the first thing I want to say – is the importance of actually experiencing the techniques.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
So I've listened to over 250 episodes of the podcast and actually engaging in them with you, David, was incredibly insightful and almost like unlocked some secret to it, which is the positive reframing component for me has been a game changer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And as someone, um, in graduate school, someone who has, you know, full-time job, a graduate assistantship, and then a course load on top of that, plus whatever research and work, other work obligations, seeing anxiety as a positive has been very helpful from just not seeing it as overwhelming and disruptive. Um, and seeing it as something like, Oh, this is good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'm glad it's here because now this project I need to work on, um, I'll actually start working on it rather than just being anxious and wondering like why I'm overwhelmingly feeling anxious. I think being able to pin those emotions, um, to something and saying it's having an impactful or important role and getting me to do that or accomplish that or, or, or see it through. Um,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
has been incredibly helpful. And if I can just relate a short story, I was getting a tattoo the other day and I kind of thought to myself like, wow, I wish this didn't hurt so much. And then I reframed it as I'm glad this hurts because if it didn't, that would probably be a big, a big issue if I could just get stabbed with a needle and not feel anything.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Um, so I thought that that specific aspect was really impactful for me as reframing anxiety and sadness as, as things that have
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, I would say it's also I've noticed that, you know, different points in my life I've been able to be more accepting of certain qualities and features that I have. And, you know, if people people have gotten to this point, they've listened to our conversation and being able to.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
talk about how i feel about my my looks and appearance openly like that um that was actually something i've never really done and then oh wow yeah yeah and i would always skirt around it so i'd had therapists in the past where you know maybe i'd mention it and they would kind of allow me to skirt around it a little bit and feel comfortable not really divulging all the details um
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Being able to directly kind of be face-to-face with that, so to speak, kind of made it so I feel comfortable telling other people that more casually now. So I was talking to a friend and kind of mentioned like, oh, yeah, like I've had trouble accepting my appearance, thinking I'm ugly or whatever it is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And it's like that's reduced the initial inability to talk about it or the shock of having to kind of come face-to-face with it. So I found that pretty powerful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Oh, incredibly so, because I don't I don't really think about my appearance now. I just think about like with this, you know, if I want to talk to someone who I would be interested in, do we connect as people? Not am I attractive enough to be to warrant a relationship or to have?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
That's right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Well, and I've noticed that when I had that, when I would hold on to that flaw too much and try to hide it, I would be very judgmental towards others.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, it's it's liberating from the perspective of I've been able to do a lot of really cool stuff. And I like I've been able to, you know, develop a great podcast and I've been able to kind of pursue my education. I've been able to coach people to, you know, top five or whatever in the nation. And it's not that I'm defined by those things, but it's really cool.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I've been able to do it and then know that I'm capable of doing that instead of... It's like this weird thing where all I wanted to do was get a PhD. And when I got into the program, I could feel myself diminishing it. Like, oh, well, this one doesn't count. And being able to address that not good enough component and be like, actually... it is, it is good enough.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
You know, it is like, it is what I need and what's right for me. Um, that's been really liberating. I guess that's like the word of it, but it just feels good. Um, Rather than kind of that imposter syndrome. And it's not that I don't feel that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I mean, when I was when I great David graciously allowed me to be in the Tuesday group and I felt that's the immediate sensation I had was I'm just why am I here? Who am I? What have I done? What do I know? But instead of giving into that, it's like, OK, I'll just contribute where I can and listen to people who know a lot and, you know, see what see what it's all about.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I loved it personally because I think going like a deep dive into a technique, which was the achievement addiction and then in watching you and Jill role play and then talk through different scenarios or how it could be, you know, reversed and then having everyone break out and then practice themselves, I thought was very, very insightful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And, you know, as someone who really appreciates like a lot of context and information, I felt like I was you know, a lot more understanding of something like achievement addiction after the fact. So I thought it was fantastic. And I can only imagine how beneficial it would be if you covered, you know, all of the techniques or, or, you know, as many as you could come up with really.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
So I thought it was a great addition to.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Oh, you remember? I can't remember her name. I do remember there's a woman who was Australian in the group. Oh, yeah. And then there's a guy who was a general, like, I think it was a physician, like a general practitioner. And I think maybe Libby might have been a woman who was also in the group. But the leader, her name just escapes me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Oh, it was great. It was so much fun.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
So I thought, again, it's interesting because I've seen a therapist for months and months and months, and I've had one prior to the one I'm currently seeing. And I felt like we never really were able to sink our teeth into the distortion that I have. There's this idea of like acceptance and acceptance.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I even ended up listening to a book that she recommended about acceptance, like the heart of the Buddha or something. I don't remember exactly what it was called, but I never felt like there was always a gap between being accepting and like cognitively knowing I should accept myself. And that was because I, I don't think we really had any like techniques or really practice make it stick.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
If that makes sense.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
So like actually engaging with it with you, David, and engaging with the distortions really helped me feel what that was actually like versus just like intellectualizing it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay. I will say I'm not good enough is one that probably is like an overarching.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I've had many. I would say that I struggle with... self-esteem and self-worth. And, uh, I have this overarching or overwhelming feeling that I won't be successful and I won't kind of live the life that I would like to live.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I think I'm hopeless is one that I often come back to. That's like a general distorted thought.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, and right before I do that, I want to say the fact that I'm having a harder time thinking of distorted thoughts now probably speaks to our experience together. It's like, ah, I haven't really thought about that stuff since.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
So I would say, yeah, the treatment didn't work.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
It didn't work on me. I'm different. There's something special about me that won't allow it to change my thoughts.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I would like to start with the thoughts about, oh, this therapy or this treatment wouldn't work.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. I think she would hit harder.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. Well, I understand that I could be depressed and feel down at some point. And, you know, I'm okay with that because I think there are a lot of positives that come from feeling down and feeling sad. And... You know, kind of in knowing that, I also know that eventually I'm going to feel better because things tend to work like that. Like I felt bad in the past and I've felt better afterward.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
So while that's true, I don't think it's, you know, reason enough for me to identify myself as someone who's just going to be depressed or going to be sad.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I would say that I won that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I felt like it was large.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I mean, I felt like it was huge. I think if I told myself that, I'd be very convinced.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. Yeah. maybe I will be hopeless and maybe I will be hopeless for the rest of my life. And, you know, I guess that's something I can live with and something I can be okay with. Um, and, um, regardless, I still get to, I still get to do the things that I love to do and still get to, to be a part of a community of great people that I have, you know, next to me. Um,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
So even if I feel hopeless, I can still share experiences with people and still share my life with them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I think I won.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I didn't feel as confident in that one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Okay. Joshua, I know you, uh, have been feeling hopeless and that feeling's never going to go away because you're just not really, uh, worth having any hope. You just, it's just, it's something that you're never going to encounter.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I thought you won that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'd say big.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I would say huge. And the reason why I would say that is I connected with, maybe I tend to feel this way, or maybe this does come up for me often. Yeah. And that acceptance of it not being permanent, and then also there are great things they get to be involved with and accomplish and do. That really could, for me, put a really nice spin on it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
All right, Joshua. Here's the... cold, hard truth. You're always, yeah, I love truth.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. So you're just, you're meant to be hopeless. There's no way you're ever going to experience any form of hope. And that's just the burden you have to bear.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I thought that was great.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
No, I don't think you're going to be hopeless for the rest of your life. I think it's just a feeling that you're having. And it's not at all reflective of who you are, not at all reflective of what you've done, not at all reflective of your background, your upbringing, any of that. I think it's just a transient thing you're going to experience.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And eventually, you're going to be out of that and into greener pastures.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
It's absolutely true, 100%.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
That's true.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. That was great.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. Well, what, what specifically isn't good enough?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. Yeah. I would, I just curious because, um, if, if I don't know, then there's something I can't work on or, or, or change. Um, And if I know, and I don't want to change it, then that's, that's perfectly okay too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I won that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I think it was large. Large or huge? Huge. Because when I know there's something specific, I, I feel like I have the power to change it. Um, And to relate this just to weightlifting a little bit, I like to look at those problems in the same way. It's like if I know why we're not making progress or seeing a result, I can change it and I can have a hand in that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
If you're just saying this is bad, that doesn't tell me, it doesn't give me a bunch of information. If you just say it's good too, it doesn't give me a bunch of information. It's like what specifically is good about it, what specifically is bad or could be changed.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Thank you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
What's that?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'll have to put that quote on my podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah. Well, I mean, personally, I like being different. I think it makes the world a more interesting place. And I think that difference is going to allow me to kind of stand out and be a really valuable part of, you know, the world. the people I coach and the friends and family that I have. Um, and I don't think that means the treatment isn't going to work because I'm different.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Um, I just think it means that I have a unique skillset and, and, uh, ability to, to kind of be a part of the communities I'm in. So, yeah, I think, I think it's going to work.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I won.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'd say big.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'd say huge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Well, I think what I'm really appreciative of and what I found very useful is that I don't know if I had heard the relapse prevention training before.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
uh like example on the podcast so to experience it actually was very very helpful because those thoughts about the treatment not working are the exact same as the thoughts that preceded the treatment about myself yeah they're no different and they're using the same tools and techniques to say like uh this isn't really like something i have to take as truth at face value yeah
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
And I think it's important that you brought that up because when I first started coaching, I focused on kind of the sets and reps and performance. And now I'm just so people focused that like the performance matters. If I'm coaching, say, coaching Danny Myers, she placed fifth in the nation twice in a row. So last year she was fifth. This year she was fifth. Performance definitely matters.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
But how she feels like. Per as a person matters first. And then we can layer on the means and methods because that stuff's just I mean, it's it's kind of like stress. It's stimulus response. You do something, you get a response. But making sure the person who's carrying that out is cared for and taken care of, to me, is the most important thing. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I haven't always been like that, but I think the resources you put out, David, the resources great people like Stephen Hayes have put out and all the kind of the psychologists I've listened to and read about. It's reminded me that, you know, people are at the heart of this and then performance is just kind of like an adjunct to that. So I would say it's I'd say it's very, very important.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, thank you both so much. It's an honor. David, you're a role model to so, so many. And Rhonda, you're an absolute great host and contributor. Much appreciated.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, related to intimate connections, I won't find love, like romantic love. Mm-hmm.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Thank you both.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, I it's kind of hard to say on a podcast. I think I'm ugly. So I think I'm not attractive and worth being with.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
They're very defeating. They feel like even if I were to intellectualize them and reject them, that it's just true regardless.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, it makes me feel hopeless.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I would say yesterday I felt probably like a 90 to 95 for various reasons, but I'd say it definitely contributes to I deal with anxiety quite a bit. A 95. How sad and down? I would say probably the same, 90, just thinking about the trajectory of my life and where it's going.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yes, I'd say I feel probably like 85, 90 with those as well. Okay, 85 to 90 on guilt and shame.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
85.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I'd say 85. 85.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
A little bit less. I'd say 70.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
75.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I would say those are probably the overwhelming feelings, shame, embarrassment, hopelessness.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Yeah, I would say that that's very accurate. I. Yeah, I think like there's an aspect of like loneliness and maybe being understood and. Yeah. I know that people very close to me, like my best friends, I can talk to them and they'll empathize. But professionally, it's hard to hard to communicate that and feel authentic and be able to show up in a way that I'm actually feeling.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
I feel like you have to wear a mask and put your best clothes on, so to speak. And that that makes it even more difficult. I would just rather tell someone like I am really struggling and doing the best I can.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Go ahead and I'll wait.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Well, just to cut to the chase here a little bit, if you're on high doses of benzodiazepine, certainly don't try to treat yourself, but do it in conjunction with a medical doctor. What's the best way for you to taper?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
One other thing that you said that took me aback a little bit, you said, if I heard correctly, that if someone comes into the emergency room with a panic attack, instead of giving them a 30-day dose of benzos, you should refer them to a psychiatrist for CBT. And I don't think there are – there's only one psychiatrist in the United States who's good at CBT. And he doesn't do CBT anymore.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
He does team, which is awesome. And his name is Matt May. But I don't think there's a lot of psychiatrists who would – use psychotherapy rather than just more drugs.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And if I was in an emergency room, I'd want to be able to refer people with anxiety or depression to psychologists and clinical social workers and people who have expertise in team CBT or traditional CBT rather than people who were trained mainly to prescribe medications.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Awesome point. Let's look at Gray's intriguing question about music. And thank you for that detailed expertise, Matt. Much appreciated.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
No, it wasn't.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Josh. Well, thank you so much, Josh, for those kind comments. And I think we have a question from you, too, or maybe that's just the endorsement that I wrote. But it means a lot to get the question. Three is the Josh. Thanks, David, for techniques. And so maybe that's that that is that that third question there. But I really appreciate that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Well, I'll give my answer first because it's very short. Usually I give my answer last. But I agree with Gray that music can be beautiful, especially the songs we love, the certain songs for each of us just fill our heart with so much peace or sadness or beauty. And And that can be a magical and emotional experience.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I don't think we have to look for thoughts in the form of sentences to explain our reaction to music. I'm not aware of thoughts triggering the reaction to music. I once asked Beck, you know, aren't there perceptions other than like a sentence with a negative or positive thought that can figure our emotions? And he said, yes, cognitive therapy is not about thoughts. It's about perceptions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And, for example, in anxiety, the perception that makes you anxious might be a picture in your mind. Let's say you have a fear of elevators. You may picture that elevator closing off. And so you're terrified of elevators, thinking that the walls are going to crush you or the oxygen is going to disappear or you're going to get trapped. And you kind of picture this.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And I thought that was very liberating that cognitive therapy is all about, it should be called perception therapy. And I guess you could say that music is a kind of auditory perception that can move our hearts or anger us to warfare, you know, that there's a lot of kinds of emotional reactions to music.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And that's about all I have to say, because I don't have expertise in this particular area, but I thought it was a really neat question.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And remember that we have a podcast on the four techniques for working with anxiety. The hidden emotion is certainly an important one, but it's only one of four. And if you want to get complete elimination of anxiety, and you may be doing this already, but you want to use not only hidden emotion model, but the motivational model, the cognitive model, and the exposure model. As well.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Maybe that book is good. When I hear a question like that, I have a very powerful answer. I don't know. Yeah. When people try to explain things in words that don't make any sense to me, I'd rather just say, I don't know. There's a lot of things we don't know. And just because we're a psychiatrist or a psychologist or whatever doesn't mean that we have special insights into everything.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah, that's right. There we go.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Right. That's a beautiful Buddhist thought. But what does it have to do with music? I know.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah. Okay. Well, let's bullshit on some other topic. By the way, I see that Josh's question, that was the beautiful endorsement you wrote, was the third question.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And I have an additional partial answer for Josh, and that you'd be welcome, because you are a mental health professional, and all strengths who are listening, whether you're a pastoral counselor, a psychiatrist, psychologist, social worker, whatever, if you're doing clinical work, You'd be welcome to join either my Jill Levitt and my Tuesday group at Stanford or Rhonda's Wednesday group.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Oh, in November.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
So, yeah. And then your group is once every other week. No, no. It's every week.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Did you think we were talking about you, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah. Well, you can give that information in a minute. But when is your group meet, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
So we'll put the contact information for all three of us. And Rhonda, you can add the contact information for your group, who is Anna Teresa. Is she still the contact person? Yes. Yeah. And we'll put that in. And then ours is Ed Walton for our Tuesday group for 5 to 7 p.m. That's the Stanford group. And Matt, you'll see his website and email too in the context.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
So if you are a shrink, we would love to have you join us for a period of time or a long period of time. And we practice team CBT techniques. Okay, on to question number four.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
But thank you so much because we do share our best for free. And when someone like you writes in and says, hey, the message is getting through, thank you. That means a tremendous amount to all of us. So thank you so much.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Okay, I'll let you two take first crack at this, and then I'll come in at the end. If you like, if you want to answer it. I have some thoughts on that. How about you, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Okay, Matt, take it away. What's your thoughts for Harold?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
That's great. I love your answer, Matt. That's brilliant. I might add that if some of our listeners are interested in taking a look at the Feeling Great app, we have a class in there called Your PhD in Shoulds and talk about specific techniques to get rid of self-directed shoulds like I shouldn't be so screwed up, I should be better than I am, etc.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Other directed shoulds, when you're telling yourself person X, Y, or Z is a jerk, he shouldn't be that way, he's got no right to be that way. And then world directed shoulds, which is kind of like the ones you have, life shouldn't have so much suffering and so little joy. So that's my first point. My second... I mean, you really hit the nail on the head there, Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
That was brilliant, what you said. I loved it. The second thing, I wrote back and told Harold, if he were in a session with me, how I would respond to him, or if we were just friends talking. And that's the... The Maury anti-moaner technique that is described in Feeling Good.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
When someone is just complaining, complaining, complaining, I respond with the disarming technique, thought and feeling empathy, I feel statement, stroking and inquiry. I don't try to help the person. And I give some examples in the show notes. Like if you be... In fact, let's just demonstrate it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I'll be Harold and one of you can be the friend and modify how to respond to a complainer using the five secrets. Does either of you want to give it a try?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
You know, life is just so much suffering and so little joy. That's so true.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Okay, what grade did you give yourself?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yes, I agree. And I thought that you didn't try to help. You were just a good listener. And the big mistake that everyone makes, except for you, Matt, and a few other people in the world, is they try to help the person or encourage the person or solve the problem. That forces the whiner, the complainer, just to keep going. To keep complaining.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
So that's how I would handle it on an interpersonal level. What I also said to Harold, and let me go back to my notes here, is that this is nearly always a hidden emotion problem.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
When someone is obsessing about the meaning of life or some vague thing, there's often something real in their life that they're upsetting about, that they're not confronting, they're not dealing with, and instead they're just kind of complaining about life in general. And the solution is often to find the thing that you're really kind of upset about.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And I exchanged a couple emails with Harold, and what turned out is he had made a kind of a common error in dating and got rejected. And what it appeared to be is that he was talking to some woman, and was saying, you know, would you like to go out sometime?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And she said, yes, but when he tried to pin her down, she said, oh, I have to check my schedule, and I'll get back to you in about a week or so. And he agreed to that. And she's really giving him the runaround, and he's falling for it. And I don't mean to blame women. Women will do that. Men will do that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
But that's something you don't want to fall for, that kind of thing, and get out of that situation. Because what happened then, that she just made him wait a week, and then she didn't contact him, and then he contacted her back. And then she said no at that point. And so he just kind of had a week of his life scooped out. And you don't want to give someone that kind of control over you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And, you know, when people are having trouble with dating, you know, I sometimes suggest the book... intimate connections, which he'd actually said he'd read three times, which I was really, really proud of him.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And then maybe get a colleague or something, a therapist or a friend who's pretty good in the dating arena and learn a bit more about dating strategies, because there's a lot to learn about it and to focus on the real problems in your life. But there's a lot of other techniques one can use in addition to the ones we've talked about here.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I want to say that I admire Harold because he's put in tremendous effort into his personal recovery efforts. And I've never met anyone who put in that kind of effort who didn't get really good results that just really trying will eventually open the door you're looking to. You're looking to get open. But it can be frustrating.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I know I was really lame in the dating world myself for a long time and everything I did was incorrect. and eventually I kind of found a mentor who was, you know, well, let's say a shameless womanizer, so everyone will hate me for saying that, but he was. He was Palo Alto's, you know, most famous womanizer, and women used to say how awful he was.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
All he cared about was sex, but he used to go around just picking up women, All day long. And behind his back, they'd tell him, talk about how awful he was. But when he was around, they always wanted to be around him. And he was having a pretty good time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Well, it's fun to get a note all the way from Bangladesh. It seems impossible, but life has gotten so amazing with all kinds of wonderful and awful as well, unexpected things happening all around the world. I'll give my answer quickly and then see what additional things Matt might have or... You, Rhonda, might have.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And he took me under his wing and kind of gave me a lot of pointers and tips on how you date and what that world is like and what works and what doesn't work. That was the thing I loved most. the most when I was in clinical practice because 60% of my patients were single and didn't know how to get into the dating scene.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And I learned so much from that fellow who in my book I called Bill to disguise his identity, but his real name was Michael. But I couldn't find him. You know, I know his last name, but I want to ask permission. And I called up a lot of people with his name, but it wasn't the same guy, so I never knew what happened to him. But we made a weird friendship. He lived with his mommy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
He said he was a mommy's boy, and he had a part-time job at Bloomingdale's selling men's clothing, and he had a motor scooter. not a car that he rode around on. But there was something about him that women just found absolutely irresistible. And I kind of learned eventually how that works.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
So there is a lot to learn, and sometimes if you're too sincere and too nice, you get shot down, and that's true if you're a guy or a lady. And...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Talk about that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah. Well, it was a joy working with you, Matt. It's always been a joy knowing you as a friend and working with you as a colleague and formerly as a supervisor when you were a psychiatric resident. And it was just so much fun. And it's still so much fun.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
But I'll never forget the night that you had gotten over all this anxiety and being jerked around by women and the shoe suddenly was on the other foot. And I remember you came to me once and said, David, I'm in terrible condition and I need your help. And I said, well, what's the problem? And you said, I got confused and made a mistake and I have three dates scheduled for tonight.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Oh, yes, that's right. Happy New Year. Happy Rosh Hashanah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
But there was a study, and this was, you know, it was a good 20 years ago, but it's still vivid in my mind. I don't even remember the reference to it, but I'm sure it exists somewhere on the web. But it was a study done at Harvard. And the conventional thing in going off of benzodiazepines, that's drugs like Xanax, Librium, Valium, Ativan, and that type of thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Well, what is the overwhelmingly main, massively important thing to do to help someone who's complaining about world events? Because there's plenty of world events to complain about. So let's say in the empathy phase, someone's upset about politics and the Ukraine and Palestine and Israel and Putin and Alzheimer's.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
all the awful things in the world, big and small, and you've empathized, and they give you an A in empathy. What is the overwhelmingly most important key to successful treatment, Rhonda, with that person?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Absolutely. That's it. And you don't get hooked into, you know, throwing help at people just because they're talking about problems. You know, if a miracle happened in today's session, what miracle would you be happy hoping for? Right. And we certainly can't end the war in Ukraine or, you know, cure the political quagmire in the United States.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
But we have all kinds of ways to work with someone, but it depends on what they want help with.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah, it's a good one. And the next one is a great one. I'll be right back. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I'll give you my answer right now. I have to take a pee, and so I'll be right back to give my answer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah, I'm back. I think it just made us seem more human, but that's just my point.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Well, it's a short question, so let's push ahead.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah, now we're going to go on to question number five from Maritz.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Okay, I can give a quick first answer, but I have to correct one thing. You said real psychological disorders with known causes. All psychological disorders have unknown causes, but there are real brain disorders like schizophrenia and bipolar that are really due to some biological error in the brain that we don't yet know.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And at my hospital in Philadelphia, we developed a large cognitive therapy program for the people in our inner city neighborhood. And there were many of them had schizophrenia or bipolar. including some needing hospitalization kind of involuntarily because they were so severely out of control. But when I've worked with people with schizophrenia or bipolar disorder,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
They're all so-called, used to be called minor tranquilizers. is that a lot of them, like Xanax, go in and out of the blood very quickly. And so when it goes into your blood, you just feel wonderful. And all your cares are gone. And if it's evening, you can fall asleep and wake up feeling terrific. But the problem and your anxiety is improved or goes away completely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I've worked with them in the same way I would work with anybody. I don't try to treat schizophrenia. Sometimes people with schizophrenia need to have neuroleptics if they're in a state of acute, severe paranoia or psychosis. But the things that I would be helping them with, say, as an outpatient, is exactly the same. Is there something that you would like help with?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And generally it's with their moods, in which case we'd pull out a daily mood log and write down their negative thoughts and the event and the emotions and identify the distortions and talk back to those thoughts. And I've worked with many, many people with schizophrenia, but I'm not trying to challenge their delusions or paranoia, just give them a greater sense of self-esteem.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
People with bipolar, I've treated many people with bipolar disorder, And again, during the acute phase, they may get so, of mania, get so psychotic that they need one hospitalization to understand what they're dealing with and to get on some kind of mood stabilizer like lithium is the one I used. I think they're using some other medications that work fairly well.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
But they need the same help as anyone with the feelings of depression. It seemed like bipolar patients often had a lot of perfectionism and all-or-nothing thinking and thinking they had to be so great to be loved or to be worthwhile. And I found that helping them with that was life-changing for many of them. And some of my most patients I look back most fondly had bipolar issues.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And and and before I learned cognitive therapy or team therapy, I for a while I ran the lithium clinic at the VA hospital in Philadelphia. And all I had was drugs, drugs, drugs to offer. And those poor guys were going in and out of the hospital like a revolving door. And I can't remember a single one of them who seemed to have a decent adjustment to life, to be honest with you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
There was a lot of alcoholism and a lot of unhappiness and a lot of pills that we were prescribing. And once I started doing my outpatient practice, I still got bipolar patients, but they did just fantastic because I had something to offer them by way of psychotherapy. I also would say that working with people with schizophrenia or bipolar, for all of us, the therapeutic relationship
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
is important. We all want someone to feel fond of us and to care about us and to approve of us and accept us. But I think that's especially true with schizophrenia and bipolar, that the kindness and warmth that you extend to people with schizophrenia or bipolar, many of them will never forget you. And it means so much. But you also want to have technical skills.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And let me say finally that at our hospital in Philadelphia, we had an inpatient unit for people with extreme psychotic episodes. And one of our clinical social workers created a series of cognitive therapy games. We didn't have team therapy yet at that time, but we had cognitive therapy And he created about 40 games. And he would have the patients on the inpatient unit play these 45-minute games.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Like instead of group therapy, you get together with a group and you kind of play a game designed to illustrate some aspect of cognitive therapy. Like there's the paranoia game and the high George game and things like that. And they really enjoyed playing those games, and they would learn about, like, the cognitive distortions, like mind reading, for example, the paranoia game.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
But then when it goes out of your body, you go into a kind of withdrawal, which is the opposite. The anxiety comes back and you get insomnia. And the conventional wisdom was to convert patients on Xanax to a long acting patient. benzo like Klonopin, which has a long half-life, so it goes out of the blood very slowly, so you don't get those sharp withdrawal dips, which happen quickly and intensely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
He would have all of them sit around a circle and give them an envelope with, if there were 12 patients with 12 pieces of paper, and say, I want you to write down one nice thing about each person here, and then fold it and hand that piece of paper to them. And then when someone gives you a piece of paper, put it in your envelope, don't read it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And so they're all busy, you know, writing down nice things about each other and handing them around. And so it's not like typical, you know, inpatient treatment. Now, keep in mind, they're seeing a psychiatrist, they're getting medications that they might need, but they're playing these games all day long.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And so they hand them around, and then he would go around to them one by one and say, do you think you know what people said about you on those slips of paper in your envelope? And they'd say, oh, yes, I know exactly what they're saying about me because I can hear people's thoughts. and say, okay, what do you think they're saying about you?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And this one woman said, they're saying they think I'm a prostitute and they're scheming to try to get my gold. And then George said to her, how strongly do you believe that? And she said, I know that's, because I know that's what they're thinking because I can hear their thoughts. And he said, why don't you take and read them out loud one by one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And then she took out the first one and it said, you know, Rose, I want you to know that you're the person on the inpatient unit who's helped me the most, even more than the doctors and nurses, because when I'm upset and I talk to you, you really listen. God bless you, Rose. I can't thank you enough.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And every piece of paper had some beautiful comment by someone, and tears came to her eyes because when people have schizophrenia, they're often hard to relate to, so they don't hear a lot of affectionate and kind comments from other people. We get kind of frustrated with people with schizophrenia, and we argue with them about their hallucinations and delusions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And this was a very different way of connecting. And we didn't have the goal of curing anyone with schizophrenia, but just helping them develop joy and self-esteem given their severe condition.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
biological problem and I used to see they would show me letters that they got from families or patients who had been discharged from our inpatient unit just saying and they were often written in kind of broken English you know not very extremely articulate but things like God bless you for the helping me so much or helping my my son so much on the inpatient unit and things like that and
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And the neighborhood really, really appreciated our programs. They even had a feeling good day every six months at the hospital. They'd give out feeling good T-shirts. They started a feeling good jazz band. And it was quite the thing. But it was really based on bringing compassion to a group of people who had very few resources.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Well, the question is just how do you help someone with bipolar or schizophrenia, so-called real brain disorder, as opposed to just depression or anxiety? Right, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And so they randomly assigned... People who had dependency on, I think it was Xanax was the one that they were using. And they first switched them over to Klonopin. And there were two groups, random assignment groups for the patients. And one group just got the traditional Xanax.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I had a young teenager referred to me who had one of the... severe brain disorders more in the area of limited intelligence. I'm trying to think of which one. It might have to do with your brain getting squashed during the birth process. I'm not sure. But she had very, very limited intelligence.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
mental functioning, and she was in a high school, but in the special classes for people with severe mental, you know, cognitive impairments. And she had been getting all A's, but she got mad at her teacher, so she refused to study for some quiz, and she got an F. And And then she became suicidal because she flunked that quiz. And her parents brought her to me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And I asked her, just as I would with anyone, you know, what are your thoughts? What are you telling yourself? And she said, because I flunked that test, I'm going to flunk everything from now on. And that's just the same kind of thought that anyone would have. She just put it in her own words. But, you know, it's an overgeneralization, all or nothing thinking, discounting the positive thinking.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
You know, mental filtering, fortune telling, emotional reasoning, self-blame, you know, should statements, all of that stuff. But I worked with her in a very simple way. I just said, the issue here is what grades did you get, you know, in your quizzes before this one? She said, I always got an A.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And, um, and then I would ask, uh, do you, do you think it's possible that if you start studying again and maybe talk to the teacher, what you were so mad at him about that, that then you could start getting A's again. Um, and, and, and then she would say something like, are you saying that I, it's not necessarily true that I'm going to flunk everything, uh, for the rest of my life.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And I said, yeah, that's what I've been hinting at, uh, And then she would say, could you explain that again? I'm trying to understand this. And we'd go through that 30 times in a row, the exact thing. And then by the end of the session, she said, are you saying that even though I flunked this one quiz, it doesn't mean I'm going to flunk all of my quizzes from now on?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And I said, that's what I've been trying to hint at. And she said, oh, I got it. I'm feeling so much better now. And so it was the same thing. It's just presenting things in a way that people can understand.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And again, it was sad because the goal wasn't to remove her severe brain damage, whatever it was that caused her very tragic and horrific cognitive impairment, but it was just to give them the gift of self-love and joy and self-esteem.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And it was using exactly the same kind of techniques, but delivering them in a way that someone can understand that takes into account who the person is, what is their social functioning, what are their religious beliefs, their religion, their race, their social structure. How can you explain these things in a way that someone will understand from their point of view?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
withdrawal, slow withdrawal, like over a period of weeks, you know, switch them to Klonopin and then slowly withdraw the Klonopin by expert psychopharmacologists at Harvard. And the other group got the same exact pharmacologic treatment, but they also had a group cognitive therapy group every week.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
The principles are always the same.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
We can. One is just John expressing gratitude to us for our answers on positive reframing, which I have in the show notes that people can read if they like. That was from a previous episode. Okay, why don't I read that? Well, I was going to say we could skip it and go on to the last question, number seven.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
It's actually not at all complicated, number seven.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
No, it's only 30 seconds.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And the upshoot of it, as I recall, and I don't recall the details exactly, but there was a massive difference between the groups. And most of the patients, a good 80% of the patients in the cognitive therapy group were able to withdraw successfully from benzodiazepines. And in the pure psychopharmacology withdrawal group, only like a minor percentage
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
What Rhonda is this?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah, I love your, okay. I love your questions, Rhonda. And you want to know what are the four feared fantasy techniques. And there's four of them. For the approval addiction, they're for self-defeating beliefs. And if you're working on the approval addiction or perceived perfectionism, then you do the I judge you feared fantasy technique.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
If it's the achievement addiction, you do the high school reunion feared fantasy. If it's the love addiction, you do the rejection feared fantasy. And if it's submissiveness, you do no practice. And now you know the answer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And we could go on much longer on this and other role-playing techniques, but it is Rosh Hashanah, the first chapter. day of the Jewish New Year, if I understand it correctly. And our love goes out to everyone who's celebrating Rosh Hashanah. You won't hear this until much later. It'll be like four or five weeks from now.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
But we still want to send our love and warmth and best wishes to all people in our podcast fans and people all around the world of the Jewish faith. Our love and Our hearts are with all of you. And we're so sad at so much trauma now in the world affecting Jewish people and the country of Israel. And I at least want to express my love and support.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah, me too. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
OK, goodbye, everybody. Thank you for listening. We really appreciate all of you. We love all of you. And we're so glad you join us here on the podcast, sending your questions and criticisms and your praise. And and we just we love having the dialogue and turning it into a dialogue.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah, that's right. Trialogue. Yeah, that's right. OK, so.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
fraction of them like 20 percent or 25 percent only were able to to to withdraw and so the moral of the story was that the cognitive therapy support greatly at least in that one study that i saw enhanced the success in withdrawing from benzos and i've also had some uh personal experience with this, not with that exact approach.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
But when Xanax came out, the drug companies make a lot of claims initially for drugs that turn out not to be true. six months after the drug has been on the market. And when Xanax came out, they claimed it was not addictive and that it was helpful for depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And so I thought, you know, sometimes I was having trouble getting to sleep at night, so I thought, well, I'll take the smallest dose, a one-quarter milligram of Xanax, and I would fall asleep, you know, quickly. and wake up the next morning feeling fantastic with no side effects or anything. And I thought, man, this is a magic bullet, this drug.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
But then after being on it for a number of weeks, I realized that I was getting addicted to it and wanted to take two of them rather than And one of them. And I thought, this sucks. This is not good. And so I stopped taking them. And I went into withdrawal, which lasted about three weeks. And the withdrawal consisted just of, you know, anxiety and difficulty sleeping.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
But I just kind of toughed it out because I understood that that was just, you know, the natural chemistry happening in my brain. And after that, I was fine. And I think I probably did a gradual. I probably went from a full pill to a half a pill for a few days and then to a quarter pill for a few days and then no pill.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah, and then there was one pill I took once. I didn't do a lot taking this kind of pill, but another one came out that was touted for sleep. And it was also a more potent benzo that put you right to sleep. And I took one pill on one occasion, and I went into severe withdrawal from that. It put me to sleep, but as it went out of my blood, I got really wired up, something pretty intense.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
It was awful. And so I never took it again. Matt, you might remember the name of that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
No, uh-uh. I don't remember the name of it. Klonopin or Klonazepam? Did you say Klonopin?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I was just talking about Klonopin, the study at Harvard. Oh, okay. Maybe you didn't tune into that, but I'm very familiar.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah. David, you're very boring. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah. So I don't prescribe them for anything. My colleague, Henny Westraw, a number of years back, and I think I put this reference...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yes, in the show notes, but she reviewed the entire world literature on treating anxiety, and she concluded that benzodiazepines not only are not effective in the treatment of anxiety, they always make anxiety worse because you just get dependent on them, and then they make it almost impossible to recover anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And she said the most effective treatment for anxiety is cognitive therapy with no medications. And that's how I've always treated anxiety for the past 25 or 30 years. So now I will shut up and give it over to my better angels, you might say, Rhonda and Richard.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Great. What do you think, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Or Xanax.
Pardon My Take
NFL Divisional Round, Fastest 2 Minutes, Commanders And Eagles On A Collision Course, Bills Outlast Ravens And Head To Kansas City + Who's Back Of The Week
I like that. They hate us because they ain't us.
Pardon My Take
NFL Divisional Round, Fastest 2 Minutes, Commanders And Eagles On A Collision Course, Bills Outlast Ravens And Head To Kansas City + Who's Back Of The Week
Does this have anything to do with the fact that... I told him to take notes and then bring it up in the Eagles.
Pardon My Take
NFL Divisional Round, Fastest 2 Minutes, Commanders And Eagles On A Collision Course, Bills Outlast Ravens And Head To Kansas City + Who's Back Of The Week
Jalen Carter.
Pardon My Take
NFL Divisional Round, Fastest 2 Minutes, Commanders And Eagles On A Collision Course, Bills Outlast Ravens And Head To Kansas City + Who's Back Of The Week
Yeah. Memes? I woke up. I was going to root for PFT to win the Super Bowl. And then he tweeted a picture of Amy Schumer interviewing for the Jets head coaching job.
Pardon My Take
NFL Divisional Round, Fastest 2 Minutes, Commanders And Eagles On A Collision Course, Bills Outlast Ravens And Head To Kansas City + Who's Back Of The Week
They're talking to everybody. That's all the joke was. But we get to stay in New Orleans till Monday.
Pardon My Take
NFL Divisional Round, Fastest 2 Minutes, Commanders And Eagles On A Collision Course, Bills Outlast Ravens And Head To Kansas City + Who's Back Of The Week
I know misery sells, but has... Anything positive happen to you guys that we know the outcome of that? Numbers wise? Number wise. Double Doink was the most listened to podcast. No, misery, dude. Misery. Has anything positive happened?
Pardon My Take
NFL Divisional Round, Fastest 2 Minutes, Commanders And Eagles On A Collision Course, Bills Outlast Ravens And Head To Kansas City + Who's Back Of The Week
Hank celebrating the Boston Celtics went viral.
Pardon My Take
NFL Divisional Round, Fastest 2 Minutes, Commanders And Eagles On A Collision Course, Bills Outlast Ravens And Head To Kansas City + Who's Back Of The Week
Jack is here.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Wouldn't you have been freaked out when you cut the can open and you found the thing just fixed to the bottom of the can looking back up at you and blinked?
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Right. One other thing, though, I noticed on this list, Old Speckled Hen uses widgets, too, which I didn't know. That used to be one of my fave beers for a while.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Yep. This episode of Short Stuff brought to you by Coors Banquet Beer. Yeah, I doubt that.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Yeah, and they did. It's this thing that makes canned Guinness much more like Guinness from the tap, which is actually much more like Guinness from a cask, because Guinness is its own kind of thing, as a matter of fact. I say we dig into how Guinness is Guinness.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
I think so. All right. Well, I think you should take the lead then.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Yes, the widget is simple, right? So let's talk about what we're talking about. If you open a can of Guinness, and just the can, it's not in the bottle, there's a little plastic sphere with a hole in the bottom that you will hear rattling around the can. If you cut the can open, very gently set one aside and then be very careful holding the other one up because it's a sliced can.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Hey, everybody. It's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
They're very dangerous. And look inside, you'll see this little plastic sphere. That is the Guinness widget.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
It's not that big, is it? No, it looks a little smaller. But could you, though? Does it have bounce to it?
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Okay. Well, I didn't know. I could see that being like a thing that the Internet figured out.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Okay. So everybody else calls it a widget then. Yeah. Okay. So they put this in there, and only God himself knows how they work.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Yeah, and when it's time to collect that money, Squarespace offers an easier way to collect payments so you can focus on growing your business. You can invoice clients and get paid for your services, turn leads into clients with proposals, estimates, and contracts, and simplify your workflow and manage your service business on one platform. What else could you possibly ask for?
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
No, no. So if you have a cask, the beer that's put into the cask, it ages in the cask. Like when you deliver it to a pub, it's still doing its thing aging. And once you tap the cask, you have three days to drink it. That's how like unpasteurized and new it is. But the thing is, is when you get the beer out of the cask, you have to actually pump it out.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
And that creates like a totally different pour and finish than if you're pouring it out of a keg. So because the world kind of transitioned from casks to kegs around the middle of the 20th century, Michael Asher was like, well, then what can we do to make Guinness more cask-like or keep its cask-like profile and look and taste and everything?
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
And he figured out that adding nitrogen is what would do that.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Yes. And even though it's harder for nitrogen to dissolve inside beer, CO2, it's very easy. Nitrogen will, some will dissolve, and it forms smaller bubbles and more stable bubbles. So when you pour this nitrogen-infused Guinness beer, the fermentation,
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
The head will be foamier, much creamier than, say, like a CO2 lager head that eventually kind of settles down and looks like urine in a glass after a while, especially if you're talking about Coors Banquet beer. This is like a foamy head that, because the nitrogen bubbles are more stable, stays around way longer, too.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
So he figured out by adding nitrogen, you can basically replicate the look and the feel and the taste of cask-poured Guinness like it used to be.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
So you like the canned version better, huh? Oh, yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Hey, and welcome to Short Stuff. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and we're talking short stuff today. We're talking widgets on short stuff, I should say. Widgets that were first introduced as a concept from a play. Right, Chuck?
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
I might not be doing it right then because I'm like, what is this crap? I would rather just drink the Guinness out of a bottle any day of the week. I mean, do you like Guinness in a pub? I don't know that I've ever actually had real Guinness in a pub.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
I must not have poured it correctly because it doesn't make any sense that they would even go to this trouble of putting a widget in it to make worse Guinness than it is in the bottle. So I just didn't do it right. That's my guess.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Wow. So I've been doing the opposite because drinking a single bottle of Guinness is like eating a whole loaf of bread to me.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Wow. OK, so I got to try this other version because what you're talking about is basically the opposite of the Guinness I'm familiar with. Oh, wow.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Like I really want to try it. Like you've just blown my mind.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Well, there's this other thing they have now, too, that I guess kind of takes the whole thing into a new level. It's called Nitro Surge. Yeah, I saw that. You put it on top of a can and it does the pouring like it would from a cask, as far as I understand, right there at home or, you know, in the parking lot of a convenience store.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Oh, yeah. I forgot we were talking about the widget.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Right. But the specific kind of nitrogen bottles that make Guinness Guinness, which are smaller and more stable. So you get that foamy, creamy head and the cascade and all that.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
You have to hold it just right. Put your thumb over the hole and then just throw it in and put the top of the can on really quick.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Right. And they're wrong, but I get the point for sure.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
I guess it depends which version of the Internet you're talking about, you know.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
Like I just associate a stout with like like I just had dinner three hours ago. I can't drink a stout because I'll I'll throw up. I'll be too full.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
OK, we're getting tripped up by semantics again. It to me. Yeah. The big milky thing. If I drank a big glass of milk after I ate, I would probably throw up. So it's the same thing in that sense. But no, it's not making me like, you know, like Coors Bank would be or would burpee or whatever. Yeah. It doesn't fill you up in that sense. It like literally fills you up. I got you. Yes.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Guinness Widget
So, yeah, I think we're talking about the same thing. Well, now I'm worried that I have experienced Guinness like you're supposed to. And there's not like a whole world out there for me to try. Well, you may not like it. I'll try it for sure.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
Yeah, I think in either a bread episode or a beer episode, we explored whether or not bread was created to make beer portable or a beer starter portable. But regardless, it's been around for a very, very long time. And yet, would you say 30,000 years? Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
His age was close to 80. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
I don't, as a matter of fact, but we could kind of guess. He lived, he was, oh, 1960. There it is right there. I was going to do some math, and luckily I was bailed out at the last minute. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
Yeah, well, there's one other thing. There's an extra happy end to this story. That guy, Frank Bench, the nearly bankrupt baker who took a chance on his friend Otto and his new machine, his sales increased by 2,000% when he started selling sliced bread, and he was saved. Yeah, pretty cool.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
I really hope that Otto's like great-grandson Tim writes in and he's like, it's real weather.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
No, Clark was Clark. It's a derivative of clerk, so I come from a long line of pencil pushers.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
I agree. I'm glad you said that. Thank you. Yeah. I guess short stuff's out.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
Okay. Let's say bread was invented 30,000 years ago. It took 29,900 years before this point for somebody to think of pre-sliced bread, or if they thought of it, to actually follow through with that idea. And we have a hero, a hero named Otto Frederick Roeder to thank for that. We'll meet him in a minute.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
Hey, everybody. It's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
Yeah, because that guy I mentioned before, Otto Frederick Rowetter, the father of sliced bread, he had been tinkering with this for well over a decade, right? Rowetter! He was a... It's got to be German. It has to be. Well, his name's Otto Frederick first. I mean, those are your first two clues. And then they really kind of drive it home on the third name. Then Auf Deutsch. He, no, he was.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
You're not going to do it? What, the Rohwetter? I just want you to say it German. Otto Friedrich Rohwetter.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
I didn't even know I could roll my R's.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
Yeah, and when it's time to collect that money, Squarespace offers an easier way to collect payments so you can focus on growing your business. You can invoice clients and get paid for your services, turn leads into clients with proposals, estimates, and contracts, and simplify your workflow and manage your service business on one platform. What else could you possibly ask for?
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
Well, I'm, you know, from Georgia and Ohio and Florida. All right. All right. So anyway, O-T, O-F-R. I don't know. It's his initials. I'm trying to think of something else to call him that you won't make fun of me for. How about Otto? So Otto, he was an inventor and I don't I didn't see anywhere where he got the idea to do this, but just suddenly sat up one day. He's like sliced bread.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
We should make sliced bread so you can just go buy store buy at the store pre sliced bread. And he got to work making a machine. All the way back in 1917. But you mentioned it wasn't until 1928 that people started being able to buy pre-sliced bread at the store. And that's because he got pretty far, got a prototype developed, had all these blueprints for making this machine.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
And there was a fire at his office that just wiped everything out.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
Yeah. And I mean, think about how just normal that seems now. Yeah. Just to imagine that somebody had to have that idea at one point, and then we know the person who did it. His name is Otto. I just find that fascinating. That's right.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
If you want to put it like that.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
So Otto had that fire in 1917, and he kept working at it. And 11 years later, he had a working machine that was pumped by foot, I saw, like a sewing machine of the era. And it was two sets of very sharp blades, some going up, some going down at the same time. And a loaf of bread would come from the top down a ramp past the blades and come out the bottom of the machine, sliced, but kind of a mess.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here sitting in for Dave. So this is an official bonafide short stuff.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
They were just kind of laying all over the place. And a loaf-ish machine. shape, but really a pretty messy low fish shape.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
Yeah, for sure. So two things. Frank Bench was a baker on the verge of bankruptcy and just decided to take a chance and pay his friend for this machine. And number two, before Gustav Poppendieck came along, Otto's solution to these floppy, flimsy, like falling apart loaves of bread was to stick a hat pin in them.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
And then part of the instruction was to take the hat pin out just far enough so that you could take however many slices you wanted from it and then push the hat pin back in. And everybody was like, that's a terrible idea. What else you got? And luckily, Pap and Dick was like, no, no, no.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
We'll have it wrapped so that by the time it comes out of the slicer, this loaf isn't falling apart and it's wrapped for freshness. It was a great, great improvement because without it, sliced bread would have gone nowhere, basically. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
Right. You're not going to choke on a hat pin, but 18 people a year choke on a king cake baby.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
I also want to shout out Mental Floss and Zachary Crockett on Priceonomics.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
Right. And to help them out, I think Wonder Bread first came out. It was, I think, the first sliced bread nationally available or widely available. And it became the most popular. And originally it was called Wonder Cut because it came pre-sliced and they shortened it to Wonder Bread. But I was like, seriously, how much of a time saver is this? And then I read a quote from a woman who was upset.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
We'll talk about why she was upset in a minute. But she makes a really good case that like if you're having to slap together sandwiches really quickly for your family's lunches before they leave. go out the door and you're also cutting bread to make toast for them at the same time, like you might have to slice 30 slices of bread really quick. And that's actually kind of time consuming.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
So if you can buy pre-sliced bread, that's going to save you some time and effort. And it actually is worth it. So I finally wrap my head around how much of a time saver sliced bread actually is.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
No, and they tried to, didn't they?
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
Yes. So as part of the wartime conservation in the United States for World War II, Claude R. Wickert, who was the U.S. Food Administrator.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
Sorry. You're probably right, but I'm going to call him Claude Wickard. He ordered a ban on sliced bread in particular. Not bread. Not anything else. Just sliced bread. And his reasoning was you have to use thicker wax paper to keep pre-sliced bread fresh because there's a lot of holes in it now. There's a lot of extra surface area to go stale. So that means you're using more paraffin.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
And God knows what else they were trying to use paraffin for. Probably waterproofing stuff like clothing and things like that at the time.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
So they needed the paraffin. And at the same time, they're also like the price of grain is about to go up. And we don't want bakers to be able to use sliced bread prices, which is more expensive, to hide passing on higher grain prices. So we're just going to say you can't have sliced bread. And Claude Wickard walked away whistling and like dusting his hands off. And he thought that was it.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Best Episode Since Sliced Bread
And he ran into America's homemakers who surged up like a tidal wave of angry people. People wearing aprons came after him, and he ended up backing down pretty quick.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
No, but I mean just that phrase, most exquisitely slender diet, sounds awesome. So I thought it was worth putting in there.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
What's weird, Chuck, is I saw that it was this whole adage that we that is like basically encouragement is taken as an encouragement or advice today was originally taken as like a warning that if you feed a cold, that cold will turn into a fever and then you'll have to starve the fever. Like and that the reason that it was ambiguous is because of that comma in the middle.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
OK. But well, what was the whole point? I mean, like if what was the idea that it was based on, I guess, then?
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Sure. That was, I think, what they think the whole thing was based on. And regardless of how you slice it, though, how you take it as a warning or anything like that, it's pretty much... generally viewed as not good advice by the medical community today. I say we take a break and come back and talk about how this is not really good advice. How about that?
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
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Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
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Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Yeah, onboarding is fast and simple. You can get started in just a few clicks and start receiving payments right away. Plus, your customers are going to have more ways to pay with all sorts of different payment methods from Klarna to ACH Direct Deposit, Apple Pay, ClearPay in the UK. The list just goes on.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. There's Chuck and I'm Josh and Jerry's here too, sitting in for Dave. So this is short stuff.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
That's right. So just go to squarespace.com slash stuff. And when you're ready to launch, use our offer code stuff to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Squarespace.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Now, and that's bad enough, but the actual harm is in the second part, starving a fever. Because pretty much everybody in the medical community agrees that if you feel hungry while you're sick, you should go ahead and eat because your appetite can come and go and it can be so thin. You want to take advantage of it when it does show up.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
And even more to the point, if you starve yourself on purpose while you have a fever, you're robbing yourself of some really much needed nutrients and calories that your body really needs specifically when you have a fever.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Right. And the reason that your metabolism would jack up when you have a fever is because your body's literally raising your core temperature to try to cook out the virus that's got you in its grips.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Yeah. Yeah. It is kind of weird. It's like almost giving it like a grudging salute, like way to go, Bobby.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Oh, for sure. The worst is when the fever comes on in the morning and you've got fever all through the night. Fever.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Just want to make sure that wasn't an accident. Yeah. You said, can you imagine the coincidence? Like, what would the odds be of that? I don't know. It'd make you a natural songwriter, I guess. So you said that you want to drink, especially if you can't eat solid foods, at least try to drink things that have calories, like a sports drink with electrolytes, like they had in Idiocracy.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Or like thin broths, like a chicken broth can have a bunch of calories in it. Even vegetable broths have some calories. So you want to get it wherever you can. The key here is this. Even if you don't want to eat at all, That's okay. Like most people, especially in the developed world, aren't on the edge of nutrition.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
We all have some reserves that can last us the few days we're not hungry while we're sick. What we don't have is a reserve enough of fluids to keep us going for very long. So you have to, it's not a choice, you have to stay hydrated one way or another.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Well, yeah, I looked that up. So they call that for low alcohol beer. Like I guess session beers basically would be a small beer, right?
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Yeah, I think most people have heard that, right? That's a pretty widespread adage. Sure, yeah. Our friends at the Cleveland Clinic, not normally known for their etymology resources, but they traced this back, at least half of it, to 1574. There's a dictionary that was compiled by a guy named John Withalls. And Withell said that fasting is a great remedy of fever.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I love doing that, too.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Mm-hmm. I'm pretty sure that's what it is.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Water gruel sweetened with honey. Yeah. So I looked all over to see if anybody had conducted a study on whether this was true or not. And thank God our friends over in the Netherlands did it. In 2002, a group of Dutch researchers conducted a study, and they wanted to see whether feeding or calorie restriction has any effect on whether you have a cold or a fever or anything like that.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
And what's astounding is that they found that it actually does have an effect on the level of your immune system with the types of cells that are produced.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Right. And then kind of as expected, the other group, the group that had to fast. their interferon gamma levels actually went down by about 83%. So they lost some robustness to their immune response because they weren't eating. So, so far, you're kind of like, all right, this makes sense for sure.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
The surprise came with a different kind of immune cell called interleukin-4, which they found actually rose in the group that was fasting.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
No, for sure. That interferon that helps produce antibodies like for specifically targeted to an infection and the interleukin uses our bodies like innate response, like sicking cytokines that you normally have laying around in your body on it. So yeah, you can't game the whole thing.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
So that's why doctors across pretty much the board say, if you're sick and you feel like you can eat, like you're hungry, eat something for sure.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Well put, especially when people rewind and listen a couple of times.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
Well, Chuck said he hopes so, which means everybody's short stuff is out.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Feed A Cold, Starve a Fever
So you've got the second part right there, starve a fever, right? It's as far back as anyone's traced it. Although, if you kind of want to expand your definition of what's being discussed here, you can trace it all the way back to Hippocrates, right?
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
Yeah. So after you guys hear this short stuff, you will realize how just preposterous that headline from CNN is.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
So, like you said, they're from East Asia. And in Japan, they're called Juro gummo. And the reason I say Joro, a lot of people say Joro, which makes sense because it's spelled J-O-R-O. But in the Japanese spelling, there's a long symbol over the second O. So the first one would not be a hard O. It'd be J-O-R-O. Okay. That's right. And that means entangling or binding bride.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
And you'll see why they call them that. In Korea, they're called Mudang Gumi. Okay. which means shaman or fortune teller. So however you slice it, these things have pretty cool names and aptly so, because like you said, they're just absolutely beautiful and they are pretty good size enough so that you can see like all of them pretty clearly.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
Yeah, they also have orange bands like around their legs. They're just really, really pretty. The males of the gyrospiders, too, are smaller and they're kind of drab looking. So if you ever see a gyrospider and you're like, wow, that is a cool looking spider. It's a female every time.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
And then the other dead giveaway is if it's spinning a web, it's a female because only the females spin webs for gyrospiders. And you said you walked face first into or you almost walked face first into a web? Correct. Have you ever run into one?
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
Yeah. So one of the things that's characteristic of gyrospider webs is they don't necessarily break. Like it takes a lot to just walk through them. Like you can walk through them and you're kind of going to bounce off a little bit. It's not, you know, not going to send you flying backwards, but it's not just going to snap as you walk through it.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
And I saw that those webs are so strong, birds can perch on them. Like it's not like the bird's getting caught in the web, but they can like Just perch on the web for a little while while they figure out where to fly next.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
Hey, and welcome to the short stuff. I'm Josh. There's Chuck. There's Jerry there. And we're caught in a web of greatness because this is short stuff from stuff you should know.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
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Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
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Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
So one of the reasons that gerospiders are spreading so quickly is because they're very new. Like you said, a little over 10 years since they were first spotted in the U.S., which means that predators haven't, I guess, spotted them yet. So they have a ready supply of flying insects. They apparently particularly like stink bugs.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
And little competition for those insects, in part, I think, because they weave their web higher than other spiders that they would be competing with for food. And so an ample supply of food and no predators means that any species is going to just boom for a while. And that's what we're in. We're in the golden age of gyrospiders booming all over the eastern United States.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
Yeah. So a little bit more about the actual spiders themselves and how they behave. You'll notice like there's a couple of different webs basically right up on each other. Gyrospiders live very close together. I guess they're not super territorial, if at all. And again, if you see a beautiful spider in the web, it's a female. And there's probably a male trying to get to her.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
And he's using all sorts of cute little tricks to make his way from one place to another toward his intended love target.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
I would not say that. I get so deeply disturbed by that word for some reason. Oh, me too.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
Oh, my God. That and moist. And if you put them together.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
They apparently also the males will like fly float on the air. With a little bit of gossamer, like a little parachute or a hang glider from like tree to tree or branch to branch, making their way toward a web, which is pretty cute if you ask me.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
I've seen a bunch of them myself. We have them all over the house. And I had been remarking to myself, like, wow, these things are all over the place. And you sent this and I was like, oh, well, that's why they're an invasive species here in Georgia. South Carolina for sure.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
No, you shouldn't. For one thing, it's not entirely clear what kind of impact they're having on the ecosystems they move into, but there's certainly no apocalyptic impacts going on because everything seems to be fine and the other spider populations don't seem to be shrinking as the gyrospiders move in. That's a really bizarre thing if that's true, if they're having like no weird impact.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
But again, they expect that they're going to start being predated on. That's harder to say than you'd think.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
Pretty soon. So we shouldn't have much to worry about. And I hope this isn't one of those podcasts that ages like milk, you know? Yeah. But yes, I'm hoping that all the entomologists are right where they're like, just relax, everybody. They're poisonous or they're venomous and they will bite you under certain circumstances.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
But if you leave them alone or even if you walk into their web, more often than not, they're going to run away from you. So to answer your question in a very long roundabout way, no, you should not kill them.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
No. And this article likened it to a bee sting. And I remember Yumi getting bitten by one of these. And I asked her, I was like, was it like a bee sting? She's like, no, it wasn't nearly as bad. Yeah. So I decided that wasn't a dramatic enough story. So I was going to tell everybody that her hand blew up like a cabbage patch doll. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
She was gardening and they are all over our yard. They got in like one of her rose bushes while she was deadheading her roses. And yeah, she got too close and it went, and that was that.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
Yeah, for sure. Especially those heavy-duty ones. You got anything else? I don't think so. No, I feel like we covered everything, Chuck. You know what that means. Mm-hmm. Short Stuff is out.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: Joro Spiders
And they're starting to move a little bit northwestward into other southern states like Tennessee and Alabama, but definitely up the eastern seaboard. And what we're talking about is what CNN called giant venomous Joro spiders are infiltrating parts of the U.S.,
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Hey, what if I told you that you could switch your business software to an interconnected suite of programs that's more efficient and simpler than what you're using and would cost a fraction of what you're spending? You might think, oh, wow. But you should think, oh, do.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
He was just amazing in a really kind of specific way.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Yeah. So, but also if he grew up in the Midwest, like... The stuff he was doing, there's not many places to learn that. I mean, I guess if you're from like upper Minnesota or something, but I'm guessing comparing an upper Minnesota winter to an upper Canada winter is like night and day.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Uh, they don't necessarily contend that he could have been a transplant from Sweden who was just raised in like a Swedish speaking community.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Oh, I see what you mean. Yeah. Um, apparently based on his teeth, uh, isotopes that he was, he was raised in or grew up in the Midwest.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Yeah, but I don't think we ever mentioned it on the episode, on the podcast, did we?
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Great, great. Well, if it ever comes out who the mad trapper of Rat River was, everybody, we want to know so we can tell everybody else. For sure. Yeah. And in the meantime, Chuck, I think short stuff is out.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Yeah. And we're talking like the northernmost parts of Canada, like basically along the Arctic Ocean.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Oh, do is that suite of software I'm talking about with all the business software you need from CRM to sales to HR on one platform. Discover how Odoo can take your business to the next level by visiting Odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Hi and welcome to the short stuff.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Yeah. He was essentially living where the guys from the Terror and the Erebus that we talked about were trying to get to. When they were like on their march down toward Canada, they had they done this in 1931, they might have run into Albert Johnson. He was that far up. Right. So this is a really, really rugged, wild, dangerous place to live.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
And like you said, he arrived in July and a few months after that, I think in November or December of 1931. Yeah. OK, December of 1931, a couple of trappers from the First Nations who lived up there got in touch with one of the local police and said, hey, there's this guy. His name's Albert Johnson, and he's messing with our trap lines and he's not supposed to do that.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
So can you go tell him to stop doing that? And three days later, a couple of cops just knocked on Johnson's cabin door, assuming that they were just going to talk to him and tell him to stop doing that. And that would be that right.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
He pulled down the blind and went, masher.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Yeah, they threw dynamite on his roof to flush him out. And it certainly blew up the roof as expected. It also took down some of the walls of the cabin. And amazingly, Albert Johnson survived. And even more amazingly, he still refused to come out. And engaged in a gunfight with this posse that the Mounties had assembled to go take this guy out.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Because, like, he shot at an officer who just wanted to tell him to stop messing with trap lines. Like, shot and tried to kill him, right? So this guy was already a big deal by this time. And he managed to hold off this posse from taking him alive. They actually had to get out of there because they were running low on food and the weather was terrible.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
This is December in the northernmost reaches of Canada along the Arctic. Not a time you want to be outside. Apparently the temperature was negative 45 and this guy's holding these guys down in a gunfight. And then they leave and four days later they come back and now they find that this destroyed cabin is now empty. He's fled and a blizzard has covered up his tracks.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
I'm Josh, there's Chuck, Jerry's here too sitting in for Dave and the three of us are on the run to the Canadian Arctic recreating the story of the Mad Trapper and it's not going very well for us.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Yeah, it's definitely on my to-do list.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
So I don't think we've said yet. Now there's a manhunt underway. This guy who they want to take in for shooting at cops is on the run in the Canadian wilderness. And this manhunt lasted seven weeks from December to mid-February. This guy kept evading them. They'd catch up to him. He'd shoot at them. They'd have a firefight.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
One time he killed a cop, Constable Millen, who was like a member of this posse that was hunting him down. And he would manage to fend them off every time they caught him in a firefight. And one of the other interesting facts about this, Chuck, is this is the first time an aircraft was ever used in a manhunt, as far as anyone knows.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Yeah, I saw a photo that he took from his aircraft of like this. He was really high up. And there's a little tiny speck in the middle of a frozen river. And it's identified as Albert Johnson. And then there's like three more tiny specks coming out of the wood line chasing after Johnson. And Wat May got a picture of it.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
And it's just when you understand what you're looking at, it's just astounding what these guys were running through.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Over the course of seven weeks. It's nuts.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
And so people heard about this thanks to the radio, which was still a pretty new invention. But this story that was kind of playing out over the news in real time actually helped sell a bunch of new radios because people didn't want to miss out.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Yeah, this is, I saw it referred to as like an iconic Canadian story. This guy just tore us up in 1931, made international headlines. And died, it's still to this day, no one knows who he is. And not one of those things where like, we're pretty sure it's this guy. We just can't prove it. They have no idea who this guy is. They're starting to kind of chew around the edges of it.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
That is so unsettling. It is totally. It's another thing that just kind of adds to his legend, too.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
So, yeah, people by this time, this was during the Depression, and a lot of the public that was following the story were actually rooting for him. Because remember, this was a time when the public rooted for like bank robbers and other criminals and outlaws because the establishment had basically screwed everything up and taken advantage of everybody. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Um, so there were people who were pulling for him and even if you weren't pulling for him, it was just astounding what this guy was doing with just some, I think he had a rifle and a shotgun. He had his clothes and he was like out maneuvering and surviving against this, um, posse that was on his trail. Um,
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
And I also saw, Chuck, that one of the unsung or overlooked groups that was part of this posse were some of the First Nation members who helped track him, that this posse probably would have lost his trail in the first few days had it not been for the trackers that came with him.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
I didn't. I just saw that one of the members' last name was Rat. So I'm guessing he was named after the Rat River.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Yeah. So at this point, they're like, this guy is not human.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
And again, another First Nations member comes through. I think somebody came back and mentioned that they heard a rifle shot in this like totally desolate area. And the Royal Canadian Mountie Posse were like, well, they can only be Albert Johnson. And they headed that way and they found his trail and they started chasing him. They engaged in one last firefight with them.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
And this one, Albert Johnson didn't come out of alive.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Yeah. Yeah. Which is just deepens the mystery further. By the way, one other thing. It was Charlie Ratt, who was the guy that helped the Mounties find. Oh, nice. Albert Johnson.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
So they had a picture of him. There's a very well, I guess, famous if you're Canadian picture of his dead body on like a morgue slab.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
No, he looks rough and tough for sure. He does. You could not know his story and see that picture of his dead body and be like, I'll bet that guy could survive in the Canadian wilderness for seven weeks with the cops on his trail.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
So they they took this picture because they wanted to circulate. Everybody wanted to know who this guy was. And it made it in all the papers in Canada and the United States. And no one came forward. The details of his life and demeanor didn't match anything that anybody knew of. I mean, like people came forward with tips, but none of them were legitimate or panned out. And
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
Very quickly, this guy just became this anonymous weirdo who did some crazy stuff in the winter of 1931. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
But the fact that he is still unidentified just makes it that much more interesting. But even if you were identified, Chuck, his story is still just totally fascinating on its own.
Stuff You Should Know
Short Stuff: The Mad Trapper of Rat River
No. And this company called Othram, a genome sequencing company, they have figured out a few other things about him that he almost certainly grew up in the Midwestern United States. His autopsy revealed that he had extensive and expensive dental work and that he had scoliosis. This guy did this for seven weeks, scaled a near vertical face cliff with scoliosis as well.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
For sure. And then some people, because it's actually kind of counterintuitive, you think if you've gone through the school of hard knocks, I think is the way that the study put it. Yeah. You would think that they'd come out like much more world wary and like suspicious of people. And so they'd be less likely to fall for a scam.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
But no, instead, like you said, they just they question their own judgment for having gone through what they went through.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
It's a wonder any of us can function in any, like, real way.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yep. I mean, I can't imagine. Like, that's got to just keep you up at night sometimes if you think about it too much, you know?
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yes. Another one that really stood out to me, though, that this I would not have predicted is the more cynical you are, studies have found that the likelier you are to be gullible or duped. And the reason why actually makes tons of sense. Again, if you're cynical, you think you've got everything figured out.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
You think the world sucks and everybody's trying to take advantage of you and the government's constantly screwing you over. And everyone's going to try to get an angle on you. That's cynicism, right? At least in the modern sense. And it's actually a lazy shortcut to experiencing reality because on the one hand, you lose out in opportunity costs. So you miss a lot of great stuff.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Like you might not make friends that you could have made because you were suspicious of this stranger chatting you up at the outset or something like that. But as far as gullibility goes, if somebody comes along and talks to you in your language, they can pull one over on you much more easily because they are tapping into your cynicism, which again is just lazy shorthand for experiencing reality.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
It's based largely on intuition and supposition and not necessarily taking each experience and looking at it based on the facts as a unique thing. It all has this one cast to it that's the same, and that's just not how the world actually works.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
For sure. And then conversely, too, not being cynical requires way more brainpower and thought and just participation than being cynical does. Like you have to actually like ask yourself, like, is this true? What kind of source is this coming from? I might need to go do some research. I might need to ask people. It's just so much easier to be like, nope, they're screwing me over.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
I don't even need to bother to look into that. Because you're also defending yourself at the same time from getting taken advantage of. Again, until somebody comes along and is talking your language and then you will oftentimes fall for whatever they're saying.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
You do. I heard that there's a really bad norovirus going around, and that's got to be what you got, man.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Oh, that's true. I forgot you got that. Yeah. Well, there's still a norovirus going around, so don't catch that, too.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah, think about how good you have to be to purposefully lose at golf.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Oh, really? Yeah. Okay. Well, I take that one back. And on accident. So, yes, but on the contrary, if you are upset, if you're sad, if you're depressed, if you're mad, if you're in a low mood, you are actually more likely to pay attention to granular things. I think it actually kind of ties into rumination. You're just thinking about stuff. You're turned inward.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
So if somebody comes along and tries to sell you something.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
It's going to be harder to slip it past you because you're paying attention more than somebody who's like, yeah, whatever. Let's have another round.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Right. Yeah. So it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy that they are less likely to be scammed because they're so vigilant. That's amazing to me. Yeah. So there was this one study that kind of backed all this up from the University of Toronto. And they found they looked at adults 60 to 90 who handled their own finances. They didn't have any diagnosed cognitive issues.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
There's no way. Well, Chuck, I guess it's entirely possible since I haven't seen you. I've just, you know, been talking to you while we record. I have no idea whether you're actually sick or not. And it's entirely possible that you're fooling me right now. And if you are, I would argue that doesn't make me gullible because I generally believe you're trustworthy.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
And they found that people who had reported being victims of a fraud, there was nothing that really happened or there was no characteristic demographically, anything like that, that made them different from anybody else. The only thing that seemed to really kind of stick out was that the people who had been scammed before had low conscientiousness, one of the big five. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
They were less honest, humble, which is another kind of personality trait from a different scale. And from what I could see, the honesty thing means they explained it like if you are low on honesty, you're more likely to – Try something that might be a scam because you might get rich quick or something like that.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
You're more willing to take a shortcut, say, than somebody who would score higher on honesty, which puts you at greater risk. But that was about it. There wasn't like, you know, the older you get or the less educated you are in this group, you're more likely to get scammed. It was some other stuff entirely. But...
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
They found also that people who do experience cognitive decline do tend to get taken advantage of more, which is really messed up and sad, but it's true. And as a matter of fact, they've started to – some people have started to push this idea like if you fall for a scam, you should immediately be tested for –
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Alzheimer's or dementia, because there's a high correlation with getting scammed as an older person and the early, early developments of cognitive decline. It's got to feel terrible. I mean, it's bad enough to feel like you're getting scammed, but then to stop and be like, well, is this it for me in my mind?
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
We should do an episode on that sometime because I just don't I don't I mean, I get it, but I don't understand like where it started or anything like that.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah, I thought he was, isn't he like the Dolphins quarterback now?
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Have you heard about the lonesome loser? He still keeps on trying.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
There's no reason to believe that you're not sick. So really, you'd just be a shameful, dirty liar. And I would be the hero in this situation. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
And then another thing about being online to the Better Business Bureau back in 2015, I think they looked at a, I guess a bunch of their like scam complaints that came in just to see who reported them. And they found that people between 25 and 35 were,
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
were more likely to lose money on a scam than older people, which is totally contrary to what people think of when they think of people who get scammed. And one of the explanations that they came up with is, in part, younger people are just online more.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
So they're just more likely by the numbers to have scams presented to them, which means that they're more likely to probably go for a scam than, say, people who are online less, right? Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
I thought they all had like flip phones that only dial numbers.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Well, then that makes it even less understandable that 25 to 35-year-olds would be more likely to be scammed. I don't know. Maybe that generation is just more trusting these days or something like that. Actually, I got to take that back because as we'll see, being trusting is not necessarily correlated with being gullible.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah, another aspect is, like you said, people in science typically know a tremendous amount about their field, but they can make a mistake and think that that understanding, that depth of understanding, will just apply to other fields as well that they just don't know as much about. And that's another way they can fall prey to it. But also scientists like to be right as much as anybody else.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
And, you know, I don't remember what episode we did this in. I think it was about the just reproducibility crisis in science papers, if I remember correctly. But just how like the scientists don't set up experiments to disprove their hypothesis. They set them up to prove their hypothesis. That's how you get published. That's how you get celebrated.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Like nobody wants to hear about you failing, even though that's what science is meant to be. That's a part of it as well, just wanting to be right.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
So if somebody comes along and is like, yep, you're right, let's use that to explain this other thing that's actually not true, the scientists might go along with it because if it is true, then it will prove their hypothesis and make them very famous and they'll probably end up having an HBO movie made about them.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Maybe. But, I mean, we definitely talked about papers just being, some of them just being outright fraudulent because their experiments are set up incorrectly. It could have been scientific method.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
I thought that was so her line where she tells Bill Murray that she won't dance with him. It was a little out of nowhere.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah, I get that. A little harsh, I think, is what I'm trying to say.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
All right. Wait, Lucy Liu doesn't or does want to dance with Bill Murray?
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Wait, I just, before we go to a break, I was saying I would like to dance with Bill Murray. Oh, yeah. Okay, I just want to make sure that no one walks away to this ad break thinking that I don't want to dance with Bill Murray.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
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Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
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Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah, interestingly, yes, science can be gullible. On the other hand, you could argue that Americans aren't more gullible than usual, that there's actually just different factors involved that make people want to believe things. Maybe. It's weird. I think one of the reasons why it's so hard to wrap our head around is social psychologists are still trying to wrap their head around it. Totally.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Okay, we're back, everybody. And I mentioned before that trust is not necessarily correlated with gullibility. And I love that. That just makes me feel good about the world again.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah. And so we'll kind of explain why. But there have been study after study after study that basically say, yeah, that's actually true. Like you can have a high level of trust, be tested for that kind of thing, and you are not more likely to be gullible. And in fact, it seems that if you are a higher trusting person, you're actually less likely to be gullible compared to, say, like the cynic.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Like there's this researcher named Toshio Yamagishi, who's considered one of the most prominent researchers in gullibility and trust out of Hokkaido University. I know how to say Hokkaido. I don't know why I had trouble with that at first. But one of the things that Yamagishi did in the 1990s was to tell people who scored high in trusting this and other people who scored low.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
About the story of Bill and Chuck, I think you should take it because it's got a great story.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Right. But the bottom line was, even with positive information, like Bill littered, but he also cut in line. If you took all of the tallies, you would see that people who are low in trusting others and people who are high in trusting others, they had about the same scores.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
So this research from Yamagishi and others shows that you can trust other people and it doesn't open you up to being taken advantage of. That just doesn't make any sense because just the idea of being gullible means that you're trusting what somebody else is saying. That's the popular conception of it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
But as we've seen, really the idea of gullibility is trusting what somebody says because you either don't care enough to go figure it out yourself. because you don't feel like thinking for yourself, because what they're saying confirms your biased beliefs, not that you just trust people in general.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
And the explanation that I saw that really kind of drives it home for me, Chuck, is that people who have high trust are also more discerning. So they would have probably a better social intelligence than people who don't trust as much. And that makes sense because if you don't trust people like the cynic, you're actually protecting yourself. You're guarding yourself.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
And you know what happens when social psychologists get a hold of something. Oh, yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
You know that you are probably not as discerning as other people. And so rather than get yourself into trouble time and time again, you just keep people at arm's length. You don't really trust them. Whereas if you are high trusting, you are better at discerning. And that either means that...
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Because you're good at discerning, you have the freedom to trust other people because you can be confident in your judgment of other people. And you're probably not going to be taken advantage of. Or if you are just a trusting person by nature, you have to have a higher discernment or else you're going to be taken advantage of. Either way, high discernment and high trust go hand in hand.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
It's a little unsteady as they figure it out. That's right. It's an oyster stew party. So I think it's not us is what I'm trying to say. And you, dear listener, if you're like, what is going on? It's not you either. It's social psychology.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah, because at base, you can go through life not trusting other people and you can make it all the way to old age and die at pretty much the same age that you would have had you trusted people. But again, you're missing out. There's opportunity costs. to not trusting other people that people who do trust other people are not missing out on. And you're just not connected as socially.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
And research after research after research shows that social connections are like the number one predictor of living to a healthy older age. So you're actually robbing yourself by just not trusting other people. But again, it's kind of understandable if you were taught that your judgment is questionable, either through trauma, through a jerk stepdad or whatever.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
It's understandable, and I'm not sure if that's something that you can learn to break out of, although I sincerely hope it is.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
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Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah. And people also judge other people to be more likely to be duped than they are, more gullible than they are. But yeah, his whole message is like, no, we're actually as a group, as a species, not all that gullible. What appears to be gullibility is actually just somebody not caring enough to argue a point or they're accepting information, but they're hanging on to it loosely and
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Olivia, I thought this is awesome. She pointed out that if you are shown like an AI generated baby peacock that looks super cute and has huge eyes and is colorful and is nothing like what a baby peacock really looks like.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
If you're not like a peacock researcher or your job doesn't depend on positively identifying baby peacocks, it doesn't really matter if you think that that's what they look like. Because you're holding on to it loosely enough that if somebody comes along and says, that's not what baby peacocks actually look like, you're not going to like, that's not the hill you're going to die on.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
You're going to be like, oh, that's crazy what AI can do. Or, oh, it got me. Or just be like, great, I now know what baby peacocks feel. or look like. And that's his point is that's not gullibility. That's just not stopping to analyze, you know, whether it's true or not, because it just isn't that important right then.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah, because it came at your beliefs and said, yep, go for it. Like that's what that's the official line now is anti-Semitism. Yeah. Yeah. And also similarly, political ads don't don't really work. That's what they say. Yeah. And that makes me wonder, though, if that's just being suspicious of the messenger because of polarization, that you're not going to be like, hmm.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Let's hear what this opposing political party has to say about Medicare. I'm really interested. I'm going to keep an open mind. No, it's like this message is from the opposing party. I'm just going to laugh at it because it's just so full of it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
They came up with a report that found that worldwide people lose a trillion dollars to scams every year. Man. That's a lot of money. But some of these same researchers are like, hey, there's actually some short, like easy stuff you can walk around in your head with to use to apply to new information to protect from being gold, which is actually a word.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah. One of them is the first step is to admit that you're as susceptible to being scammed as anybody else.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah. Well, it also puts the kibosh on being overconfident, which again can increase your chance of being duped.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Don't make emotional decisions like we talked about. Keep a lid on impulsivity. Don't respond to like, act now. Supplies are running out kind of like come ons. Don't respond to false scarcity. Like remember people hoarding toilet paper?
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Those are emotional decisions. You want to just stay cool and level-headed. Another one is ask questions. Ask for more information. Don't be afraid to look dumb. That's a big one. Yeah, it's a big one. And then consider the source. Is there any supporting information? And when you put all this together, you are probably going to come up with a good decision or understanding.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
And if you're being gulled by somebody, that's a real word, you are probably going to say, I don't believe what you're saying. You, sir, are a cat and a scoundrel. Please get out of my face before I smack you with my glove. And we have to duel.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Well, at least the next day when they send out the email, they ask if you fell for it. They don't show like a list with pictures of all the people who did fall for it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
I agree. And that is no fooling. and if you want to know more about gullibility, go do some research yourself on it. That's kind of the point of not being gulled, which is a real word. And since I said that, it's time for Listener Mail. Listener Mail.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
I take issue with this right out of the gate. I kind of did too. I think that's a terrible distinction because I think you can totally fall for something and be duped. Yeah. And you be the only person who knew that, who knows it. You know, somebody could say something that duped you and they don't stop and focus to get like that reaction.
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The Gullibility Episode
Pretty impressive. Thanks a lot, Mark. I'm just going to call you Mark for now because I feel like we're on a first name basis. That was a great email. Great story. And if you want to see if you can top Mark, you can send us an email too. Send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
That question of whether they duped you or not answered, they just keep going on. But you know you've been duped. You don't have to respond to a Nigerian prince email or send somebody a bunch of Walmart cards to get out of some random federal case that's against you. To have been gullible, you just have to believe it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
And usually in the absence of any kind of supporting evidence and sometimes in the presence of contradictory evidence, that's gullibility in my understanding. You're believing something without bothering to go check it out. And that to me is the baseline of gullibility.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah. McQuarrie? Not that. Although anytime you do that, you sound like Murray from Flight of the Conchords to me. Murray in present.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
No. You can just believe. What's up with Greenspan? And no one in the world could know besides you that you believed and you're still gullible in that sense. The thing that really stood out to me that we'll talk about a lot more, though, is... But you could make a really good case that people aren't as gullible as other people think they are. And I found that kind of reassuring.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
We'll talk about that later. But I don't want anybody to get the impression that we're just like, yep, people are generally stupid. And here's how they fall for stupid stuff. And you're probably stupid too. That's not actually what the science of gullibility has turned up.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
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Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah, you're not informed enough in that particular thing.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
It's a big one. If you're low in curiosity, you're like, I don't care. Just tell me what to think. I'm too lazy to go figure it out myself. I got better things to do than think. Or if you have a high need for independence.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
This struck me quite a bit because if you're independence minded, you don't need smarty pants, pencil neck college boys telling you what's right or what's wrong or what's true or what's false. you can figure it out yourself. And those people are actually at high risk of being duped, which is really surprising. But if you stop and think about it, it makes total sense.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
They're overconfident, and that's a huge factor in being gullible.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Right. And strangely, ironically, almost as if he did it on purpose because it supports everything he wrote about. Stephen Greenspan, the author of that book about gullibility, he finished his book and shortly afterward, he was informed by, I guess, his stockbroker that he had lost a bunch of money by investing in Bernie Madoff's Ponzi scheme.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
So he was like, even the guy that researched this and wrote the book on gullibility can fall for it. That's a really great little tidbit. But I think it also goes to show just how specific gullibility is. Because I don't get the impression that Stephen Greenspan was like, this Madoff guy is making a lot of really great points and this is incredibly high risk.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
But I'm going to go along with it anyway. Like he went through a stockbroker and everything. So there's only a certain amount of gullibility. Bernie Madoff is like shorthand for fooling people. You know what I mean?
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Not to pick on Steven Greenspan or anything like that.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
So some other people have said, well, we really want to show off as social psychologists. We're going to create a gullibility scale. And in fact, Alessandra Tunis from Macquarie University – I'm not even going to try that one, but it's Australian for university – Sorry, Australians. There's this beer called Foster's that here in America we think you drink a lot of.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
And in America, the ad campaign says Foster's. It's Australian for beer.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
That's the best I can do. That's how I think Australians talk.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and we're flying solo again, which means we hopefully won't crash this joint, and this is Stuff You Should Know.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
It did because they backed it up. I can't remember what it's called, but they tested the validity. They tested the validity of the self-reporting panel and found that the people who reported themselves or scored the highest on gullibility on this test were more likely to click a link on a phishing email than people who scored low. That's right. So it seems like a valid test.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
And one of the things, I went and looked it up, Chuck, and one of the questions wasn't even a question. It was, you are very persuadable. And the only option to check was yes. Ah, what? No, I'm kidding.
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The Gullibility Episode
It was more of the joke. I wasn't trying to take advantage of you, although I realize now that I did.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah, pretty much. And depending on and it doesn't even have to be like you're such a stupid kid every day. It can just be things like where your your opinion is not really heard or validated or just all sorts of little missteps that parents can make that make parenting a living nightmare. So you can carry on as an adult and it can make you doubt your own opinion. So you're not going to speak up.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
That's right. How are you, man? You're still sick, huh?
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
It can make you be afraid of looking stupid. So you don't ask questions because you don't want to seem like I don't I didn't immediately get it. So I'm going to look dumb if I ask these questions. There's like it just sets you up for being more likely to be a victim of being duped than somebody who has a lot of confidence.
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The Gullibility Episode
No, is he really? No, actually, I don't think so. Oh, you got me back. There you go. We should just do that to one another like every minute or two. Right.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
But I guess that depends on whether paranormal activity is real or not, you know?
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
I mean, that's described from a point of view where you're just like, that's all fake anyway, so. Yeah. Duh. One of the things about social intelligence that's worth pointing out, so that's basically a package that you can have.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Some people are much better at it than others, but basically everyone alive in a society has some degree or other of this package of skills that form social intelligence, like whether or not you're good at conversation, whether you are good at effective listening, what your knowledge of like social roles and social scripts are, and then awareness of like what make other people tick.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
And then what people think of you and you put all this together. And if you have like high emotional or social intelligence, you're going to be able to navigate interactions with other people much better than somebody with low intelligence. Part of that is not getting scammed by somebody by being able to be like, you're a scammer and I'm not going to send you a Walmart gift card now.
Stuff You Should Know
The Gullibility Episode
Yeah, I admire people with high social intelligence because it's not just, you know, being able to spot a scammer. It's being able to see the best in other people and I think to bring out the best in other people and let them bring out the best in you. That's just, it's maybe in another life, maybe the next lifetime. Oh, buddy.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
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Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And he was also very motivated by money because he was building his own house and he needed as much money as he could get to build said house.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Not too bright. That's a really important point that Taylor would hammer home any chance he got. This guy was sluggish, mentally speaking, is the way that he put it. But he got through to him with a pep talk, where essentially he said, are you a high-priced man? And Schmidt was like, I don't know what you're talking about. And when he wrote about Schmidt, he replaced his W's with V's and stuff.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
He was a German immigrant. And he said, well, this is what a high-priced man does. He does everything that his manager tells him to do. If your manager tells you to pick up that pig iron and take six steps and then set it down over there, you do that.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
If your manager tells you to sit down and rest for 90 seconds, then after 90 seconds he tells you to get up and then go grab that piece of pig iron, you do that too with no backtalk whatsoever. Right. That's a high-priced man. You want to be a Mr. Big Boy Pants? Exactly. And high-priced men make more money. So we'll give you not just the $1.15 an hour that you're making.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
We'll give you $1.85 for making this 47.5-ton quota. And all you have to do is do what your manager tells you. And this is the other thing that I guess Frederick Taylor revolutionized in a way. He divided the workforce into two parts, managers who had the brains and did the bossing around and workers who were, according to Taylor, meant to do exactly what their managers told them.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And if you put the two together, you would have the most efficient way to say like load pig iron onto a railroad car.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
I don't like three hour podcasts, but I also don't like living under the clock, which is why I probably would not have personally liked Frederick Winslow Taylor.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Well, yeah. Also, William Wilson said basically like we're not dealing with singing birds. We're dealing with men here who are part of society and for whom or for whose benefit society is organized. Right. So you can't essentially you can't treat people like automatons and drones and robots. You have to consider them as human beings.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And the lines from his book that you mentioned, apparently Jill Lepore reported that. that he did so poorly in this committee hearing that, by the way, if you want to ever be nervous about a committee hearing you have to go testify at, go to one that's literally named after you.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
This hearing was called the House Committee to Investigate Taylor, not Taylorism, Taylor and other systems of shop management. And so he actually ordered one of his underlings to go steal William Wilson's copy of his book. and I guess wasn't successful and just kind of went ahead with the terrible testimony.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
I don't think we have any choice. And by the way, this is not a biopic. It's not a biography or a profile. It's about a man that you can't not talk about, but really this is about his whole system. Okay. I just want to make that clear to you specifically.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
But as we'll see, he used it to turn bad publicity into any publicity, which is good publicity.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
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Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yep, and now through the 24th, DoorDash has big deals running for the holidays from Best Buy, Ulta Beauty, Wingstop, Aldi, and more. You can save money and the holidays all with DoorDash. Whether you tell people is up to you.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Okay, Chuck, you mentioned that we're going to talk about the Gilbreths, so I say we do that now. We're talking about Frank and Lillian Gilbreth. And anyone who has ever read the book or seen the movie or the remake, Cheaper by the Dozen, this is the family that that movie and that book were based on.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Frank and Lillian Gilbreth were one of the more amazing, interesting couples that came out of the 20th century.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah, and it seems like Frank kind of came up with this interest independently of Frederick Taylor, even though he and Lillian and Taylor would essentially form kind of a cadre of cohorts, I guess.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
This is like an independent thing. These were two independent groups who eventually came together because they helped develop this field out of thin air. So what the Gilbreths did, Lillian and Frank together, they formed the Gilbreth Inc., a management consulting firm. they got really, really in the weeds about the movements it took to carry out a task.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And they figured out that you could break any task down into 18 different kinds of movements, right? So you're not necessarily gonna have all 18, but no matter what task you're talking about, It's going to be made up of no more than those 18 specific kind of movements. Things like searching for an object with your eye, grasping an object, reaching for it, disassembling it.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And they call these things therbligs, which is their name roughly spelled backwards.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah, I think they're right. They're like, you're our guy.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah, and to do that, so they would use their kids. They ended up having a dozen kids, 11 of whom made it to adulthood. One of them died at age five of diphtheria, sadly. And I don't know how, but they planned to have six boys and six girls. And I think they were successful at that. No idea how they did that because we're talking about the beginning of the 20th century.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And they decided to raise their kids in the under these principles of efficiency. But they weren't weirdo clinical types like this was a tight, cool family. Like the kids were participatory, like they would have family meetings. Um, and each kid had a vote. And so they would have a family meeting and someone would put forward a motion. Like I say, we get a dog and someone would second it.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And then they put it to a vote and then, you know, the eyes had it. So they ended up getting a dog. They named Mr. Chairman. Like that was how they ran their, their family, but they were all very focused on efficiency because they were obsessed with it, but not in a, a, a deleterious way, um, or deleterious way. They, they were, um,
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
So it was a really different viewpoint of the same thing compared to Frederick Taylor. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah. Yeah. I think I explained it already. I'm sticking with my idea.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
No, I don't think he was evil. I don't think that he set out to exploit workers. But I think even after he saw what his invention was being used for, he was indifferent to that. And that says volumes about him. He never denounced it. He never called people out for misusing it. And he actually helped foster its misuse to exploit workers. So I think he was a bit of a misanthrope.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Not evil, and that wasn't ever his intention to be evil, but when it turned kind of evil, he was like, sure, let's keep going if you guys are giving me money.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah, maybe. For sure. I mean, it's possible. I think that we're barreling toward a future where every single person has a diagnosis of some sort or another.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think we already know that. But we haven't we haven't come up with a label for every single one of those types of issues that people are working with. That's the difference that I'm talking about.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
I agree. I don't think I'm not saying there's anything wrong with it. I'm just interested to see like where we're going. But yes, I agree. We've in large part as a society scuttled the idea of the Ubermensch and Nietzsche is very unhappy about that.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah. Didn't Miller Lite have an ice too? Didn't everybody have an ice for a while? Light ice?
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
No, I screwed it up then because I should have said Bud Ice. But yeah, that's what I was going for. I know Milwaukee's best had an ice.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah, I think it had something. It messed with the alcohol content or the way it was delivered or something like that.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Exactly. No, the opposite. You had to drink 12 instead of 14.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah. And Brandeis is ironic because he was dyed in the wool progressive. Like you said, he was worried about big business. And so the idea that he's the one that made this concept that's historically viewed as exploitive of workers. famous and introduced to the world and essentially gave it its breakout moment. It's just terribly ironic.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
But the whole basis of that is that he was arguing before the Interstate Commerce Commission, which is holding hearings on railroad rate hikes. The railroad said, Stuff's getting expensive. We need to increase the prices that we charge to carry freight, to move freight. And of course, that has cascading effects all throughout society and prices were going to go up.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And Brandeis represented a bunch of companies that were going to have to pay those increased rates. And Brandeis' argument was that the railroad companies don't need to raise their rates. They need to get more efficient. And here's how they can do it. This guy named Taylor has figured out a scientific way of getting more efficient.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And that's how they can keep their prices low and still keep their profits high.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah, for sure. And he was riding on the publicity from that Interstate Commerce Commission hearing, but also that congressional hearing that came, I think, later that same year. He saw an opportunity to get his name out there, even though his name was kind of being dragged through the mud.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah. Have you ever heard of the work triangle in a kitchen?
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
But for those of you who don't know what it is, the kitchen triangle is like the places where you do the most work. And so the idea is that they should be all within a step or two from one another. The sink, the oven, and the ice cream maker. I don't remember what the third one is. The dishwasher. Dishwasher.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
So anyway, she came up with that. If you have a kitchen island, you can thank her. I've seen. So, yes, she's just kind of pivoted because people were finding out that there was a woman that ran Gilbreth Inc., the management consulting firm, and were just walking away from their accounts because it was run by a woman. So she had no choice. She had 12, 11 kids to raise. And so.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah, and I could just hear our left-leaning listeners going, boo-hiss. But efficiency was not in and of itself a naughty word on either side of the political spectrum at the time because you could also hope that a more efficient factory or a more efficient workforce or a more efficient whatever –
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
had to provide for him. She wanted to send them all to college. So, yeah, she pivoted to home ec. But it wasn't just her. It's not like she invented home ec out of whole cloth. It was already being developed by a very famous or should be famous lesbian couple, Flora Rose and Martha Van Rensselaer. Yeah, Rensselaer, right?
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
R-E-N-S-S-E-L-A-E-R. Rensselaer. Yeah, that's what I'm going with. And the reason I specifically called them out as a lesbian couple is because they were out as a lesbian couple in, I believe, the 1920s or 30s. I mean, you just did not do that. And they were like, say something. Just bring it. And they just went unchallenged for their lifetime from what I knew.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
But they wanted to turn working in the home into something scientific, domestic science, which kind of elevated its status as well as made things easier for the woman working in the home.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Sure. The only question is who decides what really matters. And I think one of the things about that is that at the time when that guy was talking like that, kids in public schools were viewed as being trained and molded into the workers of tomorrow. So it was the government and the economy who decided what was important.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And, yeah, we were making a lot of money off of reciting Greek poems, like you were saying. So that would get scuttled in the face of, say, I don't know, shop class maybe. What class? Shop?
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
No. I was just fascinated by that. They had one on Saved by the Bell, and I always thought that was the coolest thing.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Well, there was a huge shift in the American economy from car making to lamp making in the early 80s. So I'm sure that's what the result was.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Systematic soldier? Yeah. I say we take our second break.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
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Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
would increase productivity but also give workers more free time and then ideally a larger share of the profit in the form of higher wages. Yeah, that's how that works, right? Exactly. I mean, I can't imagine a more naive progressive movement than that, but that's exactly what they were hoping for.
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Taylorism: Work Faster!
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Taylorism: Work Faster!
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Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot about the fridge. Yes, yes, absolutely.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Right, and I'm sure that she didn't have a dishwasher in the 1930s and 40s, so, you know. Yeah, so you're right, Chuck. Just say it again. I think it was the fridge. Okay.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
But not just hoping for, they were fighting for it, agitating for it, doing whatever they could, taking it to the courts. Sometimes they were successful, but I think we all know, spoiler alert, in the long run, they lost thus far.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah. And so de-skilling workers, taking away the overall understanding of making, say, like an oven and just giving them the one job of putting the door on the oven as it's coming down the assembly line. Not only does that take away from job satisfaction, it also makes you way more replaceable. Because you don't have to train somebody to build a whole oven.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
All you have to do is train them to put that oven door on and then you train somebody else to put the thermostat in the oven and so on and so forth. And you, the owner of the factory, has that oven you want, but you have a bunch of replaceable workers that you can pay fairly low wages, even combined, compared to somebody who builds the oven from scratch.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
That is a huge, like you said, that was already underway. But Taylorism and the fact that it was so pervasive and widespread, especially in America in the first half of the 20th century, really solidified that as like a basis of the American workforce.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yes. And so to be clear, it wasn't like every single time Taylor showed up, like that's just how it went. There were some successful pushbacks over the years. There's one specifically at the Watertown Arsenal in Massachusetts in 1911. They made guns, I think, for the government. It was a federal arsenal. And Taylor sent one of his emissaries, essentially told him to just make up a number.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
You don't even need the stopwatch part. And I think word of that got out and really kind of undermined that. But also just the process of being timed, doing your job. One of the workers said, I'm not doing that. You can't time me. And he was fired on the spot. And the rest of the workers were like, oh, yeah, well, we're going on strike.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And they ended up being successful because, again, this was a federal arsenal. And those congressional hearings to investigate Taylor, one of the results of them was that the U.S. federal government banned Taylorism from being used in any way, shape or form in any kind of federal facility or agency.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
But but overall, I mean, Taylor certainly won the day. I mean, that's that's just how the economy is in America and other like minded countries. Like even though we've kind of walked away from it overtly, it's just gotten more and more entrenched over the years rather than further and further away.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Right. No, for sure. And yeah, that's a really great point. But some studies have shown, from what I saw, just briefly reading about this, that The happier your workers are, or I should say economies that have happier workers, like more fulfilled workers, typically have, they're richer for the most part.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
I guess America is an outlier because I think overall workers are not necessarily happy with their jobs or lack of job. But supposedly, if you invest in your workers' well-being and actual happiness and fulfillment with their job, they're going to work more for you. They're going to work harder because they care about what they're doing.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Totally. Yeah. And then one of the other big things that shows that Taylorism is still alive and well today, Chuck, is computers, AI, whatever you want to call it, they're fulfilling the role of managers that Taylor envisioned. So remember, the manager was in charge of figuring out the best way to do something and then instructing the worker to do it exactly that way at exactly that time.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
That is what computers do today for workers, which is a bizarre reversal of authority, I guess, if you think about it. But that's the way it is, especially in places like, you know, big warehouses or call centers. There's computers essentially running the show.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
No, I don't remember that guy. You got to tell me. I'll remind you. Okay. Please do.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Just one last thing. Do you have anything more about Taylorism? No. OK, great. Well, then I do have just one last thing. If you want kind of a lighthearted look, a comedy with heart efficiency, check out the 1991 film The Efficiency Expert starring Anthony Hopkins.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
That was, yeah, kind of a different one. But, yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of crossover for sure. What's this Tony Hopkins picture? What is it? The Efficiency Expert. It's exactly what you just described. And he ends up in, I think, a factory where the workers make, they change his view of things. I think they kind of turn him around. Oh.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Well, anyway, we're about to end. Well, wait, hold on. We got to do listener mail, don't we?
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
By the way, Chuck, I got to tell you that we ended on 45 minutes on the nose. Holy cow. Yeah. Way to go, champ. Oh, since I said way to go, champ, of course, that means it's time for listener mail.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah, at Midvale Steel Company, that's where he really made his name. I think that's where he became the chief engineer.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Oh, nice. Thanks, Stanley. You're a true listener through and through, aren't you? I love that humble, like, I can't figure out how to put the words together, but here they are.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Exactly. Well, if you want to be like Stanley and make me say wow, not once, not twice, but thrice, then you can try your hand at it. Send us an email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And one of the things he did as he was working his way up was he was, I guess, out of the gate obsessed or at least deeply interested with the idea of doing something in the least number of movements, the most precise way, the most foolproof way, and that if you studied a task closely enough – and understood it well enough, you could find the most efficient way to do it.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
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Taylorism: Work Faster!
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Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And so over his 26-year career at Midvale, he conducted more than 30,000 experiments in metal cutting, figuring out which tool went with which motion, went with how to grab the tool the best way. And from that, he ended up writing a book called On the Art of Cutting Metals in 1907. And from what I saw for years and years, that was considered like a Bible in the metal cutting industry.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And so he definitely put his money where his mouth is. And that's how he first kind of got into the idea of becoming an efficiency expert.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And your response is like, well, can I go home early? Probably so.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
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Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah, remember in our Peter Principle episode, we talked about a corollary to that called Parkinson's Law, which is like a tongue-in-cheek law that work expanded to fill the time allotted. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, if you're sitting there like making widgets, sorry to be cliche, but that's what I'm going with, eight or ten hours a day, you're not going to be the most efficient you can be.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
You're going to be about as efficient as as ambitious as you are. Like your ambition, how far you want to go, is basically equal in some weird ratio to the amount of efficiency that you produce at your job, right? So if you're like, I'm happy here, I'm not going to bust my hump like that guy to go an extra half mile because I'm not going to get anything in return.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
So I'm just going to do my job at a pace that I find – And that the people I work for find acceptable. And I mean, if you want to call that slacking off or being lazy, fine. And Frederick Taylor definitely did. But it's also just kind of like being a human being, you know.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And they appreciated your soft touch with the donkey that pulled the cart.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah. I think the reason you're – man, we're really going deep on this. But I think the reason that you're feeling mischaracterized is because you're misusing the word lazy. That's not lazy. That's what they call work harder – or work smarter, not harder.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
No, that's not necessarily true. I think it's just sensible.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Okay. There you go. But they're not necessarily inextricably tied together in that instance. Okay. Anyway, I don't think what you just described qualifies as laziness. But what Frederick Taylor considered laziness, he called something called systematic soldiering, which I still can't make heads or tails of. It does not make any sense to me. Does it to you?
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
I don't know. I mean, you go off and fight battles or you go and follow orders. I don't know. I don't know what he means.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
It makes no sense because that was his term, systematic soldiering.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah. Right. That's what he called slacking off. And like this guy was an aristocat through and through. Right. His mother's family came over in the early 1600s, I think, to America. So like he was a wealthy, blue blooded. A quicker boy who, because his parents were like do-gooders, his mom certainly was. She was a suffragette, an abolitionist.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
He was raised to care about humanity, but he also didn't have that spark of compassion that it takes to care about humans individually. So he cared about creating a better society for humans, but he couldn't really help but look down on other people he considered lower than him, including immigrants. So he did notice things like, you're not working as hard as you can.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
I'm going to see to it that you work harder. And he felt totally comfortable with filling that role. And he actually created that role for himself to fill, which is pretty remarkable if you ask me.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too, timing us, telling us to hurry up, scowling at us even, which makes this another average episode of Stuff You Should Know. She said, get this in 45 minutes on the nose. No more, no less. And then she went and walked out of the room holding a pillow.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah. And so those management companies like KPMG and McKinsey, they would not exist ostensibly had Frederick Taylor not created that field. Like that's what he created. These huge just mega world influencing companies came from this guy basically making up the profession.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Yeah. And that thing about people getting tired, he called the law of heavy laboring. And from what I can tell, he made up that law that I just put into scare quotes. And this is a really good example of what he did.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Like he was supposed to be precise in finding like ultimate efficiency, but he was arbitrarily rounding up and arbitrarily coming up with 40 percent off based on this law that he made up. And now you kind of start to get to see like behind the veil or like the meat that's on the bones. I don't know the analogy I'm looking for, but you can pull back the curtain. That's the one.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
And see that this stuff is actually not what Frederick Taylor cracked it up to be.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Here's the thing, though. So Schmidt, yes, was a fictional invention, essentially, of Taylor's making. But he went around the country giving this lecture or wrote in his books, like, as if Schmidt, this actually happened. About Schmidt? Yeah. It was a great movie. I really felt uncomfortable when he made a pass at the wife of the friendly couple that he met.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
Other than that, I thought it was a great movie. Yeah. I think at that point, that was actually just an outtake of Jack Nicholson doing his thing.
Stuff You Should Know
Taylorism: Work Faster!
This is great. So he put out there that the Schmidt character was like a real deal thing, not a made up thing, not a made up anecdote to prove his point. And he actually did consult at Bethlehem Steel where Schmidt supposedly worked. But the upshot of all of it was this. There was this guy named Schmidt who is known to work very hard.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
He put them all into a collection that he attributed to Mother Goose. So I couldn't find definitively that he invented Mother Goose, but he certainly made Mother Goose a star.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Oh, well, we should probably say that the reason why there's not a lot of people that you've heard of today because they stopped adding bones in 1860. They said that's enough. This is a little nuts. Somebody thought of this like almost 100 years ago. They were clearly insane. Paris went along with it. Let's just pretend like it was OK, but just stop doing it any further.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
I looked to see if he ever went and visited the catacombs, and I could not find that he ever did. So let's just say he didn't.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
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The Catacombs of Paris
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Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
So, Chuck, there's been at the catacombs a lot of bone deposits, bone stacking, that kind of stuff. But that, I think we said at the outset, that takes up just a really small amount of all of the tunnels that are under Paris. They've done some other really fascinating stuff. Dozens and dozens of different interesting, really creative, inventive things with these tunnels, right?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah. I don't remember mentioning that in our Amaro episode, but we definitely talked about chartreuse.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah, which is about 15 and a half degrees Celsius for our French friends.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Exactly. One of the things that made it so appealing in addition to being able to keep it at like a constant cave temperature, cave age to anything is pretty great typically. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Um, this is also real estate in the heart of Paris that, you know, you can use some steps and go up street side and all of a sudden you're right there at your customers without having to pay the incredibly high price of real estate in Paris topside.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
I recommend it. Have you ever been to the Moulin Rouge?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah. For some reason, I'm going to have to ask you never to use the word fruit and mushroom near each other again. I find it troubling for some reason. Really? Yeah. Mushrooms fruiting is, I don't like that at all. That's really funny. Yeah. All right. But I'm serious though.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Okay. Thank you. Although you do owe me about seven or eight mentions for that oyster stew.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Okay. So the Moulin Rouge is generally topless dance numbers typically, right?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Oh, good. Oh yeah, that's right. You should tell everybody you're finally feeling good.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Congrats. So let's see. What else, Chuck? Oh, I was totally joking when I said there's been hundreds of creative uses. There's been basically three, and two of them are technically the same, which is brewing alcohol.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Brewing alcohol and brewing alcohol, depending on which kind of alcohol, beer or chartreuse. That's it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Did you notice that when you're at the Moulin Rouge, boobs just, there were so many boobs everywhere that they just totally lost all context and meaning?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah, until the 50s. And in some cases, even decades after that, there were a lot of buildings in Paris who had doors, sometimes forgotten doors in their cellars or basements that led directly to the catacombs or the underground tunnels in Paris. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
So it was kind of easy to get down there for a very long time. It's actually really recent that it's now very hard to get into the off-limits parts. But as we'll see, that doesn't actually deter anybody.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Can't you just see them in like adjoining tunnels but not knowing that the other one's there?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
No, actually, to tell you the truth, I was going to translate the dollar that you could make off of a cow in our Tragedy of the Commons episode. Euros and stuff like that, but we never got around to it. That's funny. I can also tell you it's 0.8 pounds to the dollar today as well. But $1.60 Australian dollars to the dollar.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
But I'll bet even 12-year-old Chuck was like yawning by the end of it, right? Because there's just so many boobs everywhere that they're just, it doesn't mean anything anymore. The catacombs are the Moulin Rouge of human bones, right?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Is it 20 now? I thought it was like 10 last time we were there. I think it's 20. Am I just wrong? It was 20 back then? Like last year?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
How long does the tour take, Josh? You went through it. An hour. I don't remember it taking an hour more or less. It's weird because when you're in the catacombs, you're out of time. Like there is no light whatsoever reaching you. The only light in there is electric. And apparently that's only been around since the 70s. Before that, they gave you a candle and said good luck.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
But the light that is in there is almost – it makes it even eerier because it's sodium light. So it's got a – kind of an orangish-yellowish cast to it. Oh, yeah. It's just a weird place to be. So I believe that it's an hour, but I have no recollection of how long it took.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah. Yes, there is. Okay. Like 500 steps or something like that. So, yeah, you go down like a spiral staircase and there's multiple stairs.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
It does. I don't remember it, but I looked up a picture and a little bit on that. The guy who carved that was an inmate at this prison for years and redid it from memory, carved into the stone.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
And he actually died there from a landslide or a rock in or something like that. I can't remember what it's called. While he was building some steps to get to it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
He dedicated his life to that thing. That's very sad. Yeah. Yeah, but appropriate for the catacombs, if you think about it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah, I also saw that she helped Theseus get out of the labyrinth by leaving a thread for him to follow back after he slew the Minotaur.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
I don't remember it either. Okay. It's supposedly on the ceiling. I think it's just a black line.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
I don't. It's weird. Like I have pictures of it and I remember the thing with Mila. But like a lot of these pictures that I went and looked at online, I'm like, I don't remember seeing that at all. I don't think I was drunk. I'm pretty sure I was fairly sober. I think I just my my episodic memory is shut. Holy heck.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
I do. I guess they made more of an impression on me than I remembered. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
So, OK, that might that may be why I don't remember some of these.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
I guess I'm just hey, man, I'm just grasping at straws here. Help me out.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
That was one of the coolest things about that movie, that backstory that the crazy, amazing, rich hotel slid into the ocean and now that's where they lived and there were old chandeliers kind of hanging out. I forgot about that. Yeah, yeah. Super cool.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
I did not look that one up, but there are... Let me give you a couple other ones. There was a group called the Mexican de la Perforation. Let's just say it like that. They overtook one of the caves beneath the Palais de Chalot and set up a movie theater there with a bar and room for 20 people to watch a movie, and I did not find what movie they showed.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah, I saw that was a subgroup of UX called the Untergunter. And they were the ones that actually did the clock. UX is almost like an umbrella group.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Right, exactly. And then UX also is like an acronym for urban explorer, too, which these people also are. So they kind of almost made a play on slang, which is really something. Oh, okay.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah, they played Chopin's Funeral March. And I was like, I'm not familiar with that one. It's Darth Vader's theme.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
It's Darth Vader's. It's not possible that John Williams just coincidentally came up with that as Darth Vader's theme. Yeah, it's like an adaptation of the funeral march.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
It's got to be. I've never heard that before, though. And I know everything there is about Star Wars. Just try me. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Human bones. Yeah. That'd be the right answer. Choice A. What would be the other choices?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
That's right. And I say we take another break and we'll come back and find out. Do people find their way in if they want to? After this, let's do it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Okay. How long does that take? I don't know, but it's changed since we were there. Hours. I remember it taking hours. It used to actually test IQ and now it just tests like retention.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah. It is a special detachment of the gendarmes that their whole thing is catching people down in the tunnels. And from what I read, that if you're a true cataphile, and I guess there was an article in, I think, 2015 or something like that, that estimated there's around 100 genuine cataphiles, the cataflicks are probably going to leave you alone.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
At the very least, just maybe give you a warning or something like that. If you're a tourist in the sense of like the Fight Club support group tourist, then you're probably going to get that 60 euro fine because you really, as far as the cataflicks are concerned, you have no business being down there. It's dangerous. You got no respect for tradition like the actual cataphiles do.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
And something else I read, Chuck, you're actually trespassing on private property. Because if you buy a piece of real estate in Paris, your ownership extends to whatever's below it in the underground. Wow. That sounds kind of cool until your house caves in and the city's like, it's your property, top to bottom. So good luck with that.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
And they actually at City Hall make that sound when you come in to ask them for help.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
No, no, no. And it kind of does kind of give you a sense that it's not considered like the crime of the century in Paris. But at the same time, there's a special police detachment to catch people doing that. So there's almost mixed messages with that.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Chat is C-H-A-T, that's cat. Oh, nice. Andiers is flaps, I guess.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah. One of the most famous uses of the Paris Underground came in The Phantom of the Opera. And I'm not sure if it was in the original novel, although it probably was. But I certainly know that in the stage play or the musical, that's where the Phantom lives. But more the point, there's supposedly like an underground lake there that the Phantom like rose his gondola on, right? Yeah. Cool.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
There actually is an underground reservoir under the Paris Opera House. It's not an urban legend that Gaston Theroux made up. Wow. Or Andrew Lloyd Webber, one of the two. When they were building the opera house to keep the foundation from just filling up with water over and over again while they were building it, they built a reservoir to impound the water in.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
And so it's like 12 feet deep by almost, I think, like 60 yards, 60 meters long. Hey. Little reservoir that you could conceivably sail a gondola on if you were the kind of person to live underground.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
I don't know. Give me a break, man. Okay. Well, what about the evaporation? Right. But I mean, so it definitely has to be constantly replaced because they had to build this reservoir to hold the water that was always trickling in. But yeah, it makes sense. Why wouldn't it overflow once in a while?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Pretty cool. I was looking at screenshots of that. It's pretty neat. Did you play that one?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Are they like jump scares or do they just create like a sense of ongoing dread?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Alan Wake too, everybody. Like Alan Wake, like somebody's name? Yeah. The second or the sequel? The sequel. Okay. It would be Alan Wake Jr., I think, probably. I guess so. Don't call me Jr. Henry Ford II was not a junior. Yeah, because who wants to be called junior? I don't know. I'd go with JR if I was a junior. Oh, totally. Call me JR. What does it stand for? It stands for junior.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
It would be fun. I have one more story about the catacombs.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
What's cool is because of that 18-minute exposure time, any of the photographs of workers working in the catacombs are actually dummies as stand-ins. Oh, that makes sense. It makes it even a little creepier, too, if you ask me.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
So when we went, I've only been once, and it was a few years back, but we went with my brother-in-law and sister-in-law and our niece, the very famous Mila, who's been in a bunch of movies. She played young Mary in the movie Mary that came out on Netflix this past Christmas. Did you know that?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
I have one more thing for you about dummies in underground places. There's an awesome, one of the great, I'm sure I've talked about before, one of the greatest tourist attractions I've ever been to in my life was in Budapest. There's something called the Hospital in the Rock.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
And I think it was maybe World War II, maybe Cold War, but it was a hospital that they dug out of a cave system on like a stone hill in Budapest. And it's a hospital. It's got like that white, creepy subway tile. Like there's gurneys everywhere still. And it was like just this emergency hospital in case the town ever got bombed or whatever. And they have dummies everywhere, mannequins.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
And that just just chefs kisses it for me. Like it makes it so scary, even though they're not trying to make it scary. It just really is. I think if you have dummies in your tourist attraction, you've just taken it to another level. Like put dummies in your tourist attraction. Don't just leave it for people to use their dumb imaginations.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Like give them some dummies dressed up and it'll really make it. You'll be rolling in the dough after that, I think.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
But if you ever go to Budapest, you have to go to the hospital in The Rock. It's amazing.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
I think I asked you if she did or not, and I don't know if she did.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
It definitely seems like it would have been up her alley, though, for sure.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah, apparently in 2017, some thieves stole over a quarter of a million dollars worth of wine that was cooling in a cave. I guess belonged to some winery.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah, you don't want to do that. I mean, just not just for the illegality. That's really disrespectful.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah. You can put a little emphasis on the T at the end there. Aspert? I think so. Maybe that's a little too much, but somewhere in between those two.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Well, they do that a lot. That's how they get you. Exactly.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Well, we were off. So I didn't get a chance to. But it's definitely worth watching. It's like a pretty religious movie. I mean, it's about Mary, the mother of Jesus. Oh, Mary Mary. Yeah, yeah, that Mary. You're like, oh, Mary Mary, sure. And it is fascinating. Like, actually, my brother-in-law also was a producer on it, too. And they it has like action. It has like it's a thriller.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Hey everybody, it's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
It was not at all creepy. It's not presented to be creepy either. It's just, it is what it is.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
You got anything else about the catacombs? Nope. It's on the list. Yep. You should go. You'll enjoy it. And don't forget the hospital and the rock, too.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Since Chuck said right, of course, that means it's time for a listener mail.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Gene, Gene, the Dancing Machine. Oh, yeah. Can you believe we didn't mention Gene, Gene, the Dancing Machine in the entire episode?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
I think both of us thought that we had because Livia clearly included him in the article as mentioned. I think we just passed over him and didn't talk about him, which is just sad.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah, thanks a lot, Mike. I mean, criticism from Caesar. That's pretty awesome.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Well, if you want to be like Mike and just completely devastate us in something we said and just show how utterly wrong we were, we'd love to hear that stuff, especially if you're an historian, semi-pro or otherwise. You can send us an email to stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
It has like a really evil villain played by Anthony Hopkins. Like it's just a really good movie that you'll watch from beginning to end and be like, this is pretty good.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Well, anyway, back to my story. So little Mila, she must have been five-ish at the time.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
She went to the cat that comes with us, right? So she's walking around this ossuary with bones and human skulls everywhere. And Yumi or I asked her, like, are you scared right now? And she said, I would be. Now they're like boobs. Right. She said, I would be if these were real. We just looked at each other out of the corners of our eyes and we're like, well, let's look over here now. Right.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
It was very adorable. What's funny is, the irony of the whole thing, is this is the same kid at about the same age who was scared to death on the movie ride at Disney Hollywood Studios, but is standing there in an ossuary of millions of bones, human bones and skulls, and is like, meh.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
So those are all my stories about the catacombs. I figure we should probably start talking about it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Right, right. But you have no idea who's who. Like one bone doesn't belong to another bone. No idea whose skull is who. It's crazy.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah, something like 32 square kilometers of tunnels, which to put in American terms is like a lot of bananas.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Ten times the size of Central Park apparently is underneath Paris. Yeah. I think it's 300 kilometers of tunnels. Isn't that just nuts? Yeah. It's a lot. But I mean, if you think about it, if you mine an area, a small, relatively small area for a couple thousand years, you're going to make some headway eventually. And that's what they did. The key is this, Chuck.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Originally, these quarries were sensibly well outside of the city of Paris.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
But we're talking about a very, very tiny original city of Paris that eventually grew and grew and grew. And over time, Paris overtook these old quarries that in most cases were no longer used or mined any longer. So the city built itself over abandoned mines that people had just plum forgotten about.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah, and when it's time to collect that money, Squarespace offers an easier way to collect payments so you can focus on growing your business. You can invoice clients and get paid for your services, turn leads into clients with proposals, estimates, and contracts, and simplify your workflow and manage your service business on one platform. What else could you possibly ask for?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Oh, yes, please. The Inspection Générale des Carrières.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
So carrières is French for careers. And another word for career is a path or tunnel. So this was the commission overseeing mines and mine shafts in Paris.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah, and like you said, there was a body problem. I think you kind of touched on it a second ago where there was a general sense of disease coming from these putrefying bodies that were just piling up in the cemeteries. But structurally speaking also, so like I guess at the time in France, they would bury you with a bunch of other people who died at the same time in a group pit.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
let you decompose. After five years, they would bury you up and then they would just deposit your bones in an ossuary. They were like, here's a bunch of bones. Let's move on to the next group of people and bury them for five years.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
So many people's bones built up over the years that neighborhoods built near this, their cellars would collapse in and bones would just come out because of the pressure put on these huge piles of bones that were building up. So there was a huge problem with it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
But I also read that that was a bit of like a cover story, that they were really interested, the government of Paris was interested in reclaiming some really great real estate now. And so they did this, whether people liked it or not, and they actually went into these cemeteries and moved the bones under the cover of night.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
I think so. Oh, man. Thank you for gently correcting me.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
I sound like a six-year-old kid trying to pronounce it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah. So just to be clear, when they moved the bones from the graveyard to these abandoned mine shafts, they would just go up to a hole in the ground and dump bones into the mine shaft. And they would just pile up where they fell at the bottom of the mine shaft. That's how they were transferred.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
And like you said, finally, one of the inspectors, a quarry inspector named Louis-Étienne-Héricard de Toury. Pretty sure I said that right. Nice. He said, like you said, let's have some fun. So he got busy with his quarry men stacking bones into these now famous configurations of tibias and fibias and finger bones and thigh bones and neck bones and then head bones finally.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
All of them with their eye sockets facing out. They built walls throughout these whole catacombs that had been designated an ossuary Or in French, an ossuary.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Isn't that what it is in that old dry bone song? Isn't that what they call it?
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
And then everybody just stops singing and goes home. Yeah, yeah. The skull.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Yeah, you're right. I was going to say et, but there'd be an extra T-E, I think.
Stuff You Should Know
The Catacombs of Paris
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant. And we are going deep underneath the city of Paris, city of lights, city too busy to sleep because it eats big apples. In this episode of Stuff You Should Know.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
All right. I was going to skip that one, too, or suggest we do. Great. And if you did it, I was just going to not talk. I was going to skip it either way.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Is it on Criterion Channel?
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah, I was going to say that's all over the place for sure.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
So I guess if you've seen Ford vs. Ferrari, you're familiar with this story?
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Okay. So I'm going to tell this story then because I haven't seen that movie, so this was new to me.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Okay, so in the 60s, Henry Ford II, who was the successor president of the Ford Motor Company, and I guess probably a relative of Henry Ford's, he decided that he wanted Ford to get into racing just to basically, like, make Ford, just to expand the brand, basically. Rather than just giant land yachts, we also make really fast cars, too. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
He also was like, you know, I know that there's probably easier ways to get into racing than to build race cars. And that is let's just buy Ferrari. Like they were already known around the world for building cars that were just fast as all get out.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Right. And Ford was not very happy about this, right? Of course not. So out of spite and to get back at Ferrari, and I think also to get into racing too, Ford decided to build their own race car, which came out to be the Ford GT40. And I went and looked it up. I'm not a car dude, but I am like, this is an amazing car.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
And in fact, it actually did best Ferrari at Le Mans in 1966. And you can buy that car, at the very least the original body, that won Le Mans in 1966 for a cool $675,000 from what looks like a private owner in Jacksonville, Florida.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Jacksonville. It's beautiful.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah, because they just drive around and around and around for 24 hours to see who can go the furthest, right? Yeah, I think it's pretty cool. It's an endurance race.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Right. And every once in a while it starts to get boring. They just push pedestrians out in there and see what happens. Exactly. So there's a little more to this story, a little separate spoke that Ferrari had going on at about the same time or a couple of years earlier. Our friends at Mental Floss pointed out that Lamborghini actually was founded out of spite to Ferrari.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Let's see what happens. So, you know, the the old saying cut off your nose to spite your face.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah. He said, stick to making tractors, Lamborghini. Who's ever heard of Lamborghini?
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Right. So Lamborghini was like, well, I'm just going to go make my own car. And in 1963, I believe, he started making Lamborghinis with the help of five workers who had recently been fired from Ferrari. That's how he established his car company. And had Enzo Ferrari not rebuffed him, we would never have that classic Garfield poster from the 80s where he's standing next to a Countach.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Gorgeous. Those Magnum Ferraris you can get for a song these days. I mean, they don't work very well. Like how much? I don't know. I'm going to guess anywhere between $10,000 and $50,000.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
It is. And they're so small, too. Like, I'm not sure either one of us could fit in one of those cars.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah, I think that was a stunt double half his size.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
I'm not familiar with that one.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah. For grocery shopping. Exactly. How many have we done for this thing? We just did one, right?
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Okay. All right. Let's get going. Because it turns out that there was a road in China made out of spite.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
No. As a matter of fact, it was all new to me. But that doesn't mean we didn't do it already.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Right. Sure. Did you see pictures of this, though?
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah, like it wasn't even a roundabout. It's just that the road widened and kind of curved in a bulge on the sides around this house, literally in the middle of a highway. Even worse, even more reckless if you ask me, they kept electricity going to this house. So there's an electrical pole in the middle of the highway too, totally unmarked. It doesn't look real. No, it doesn't.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
So just want to put out there that this actually has nothing to do with that phrase. And I'll explain why that phrase doesn't actually have anything to do with this. Oh, really? But I guess I should probably say that we're starting this episode out in like the worst possible way with a really downer of a story that may or may not have to do with spite. So I say we just go ahead and start that now.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
It does not at all, does it? And if you want to see what we're talking about, The Atlantic has a good photo spread called The House in the Middle of the Street from 2012. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
No, they definitely didn't. So I've looked into this a little further. It was a five-story house that they had just built for $95,000 when the provincial government said, you need to move because we're building a highway through here. And they weren't the only ones who had kind of tried to stick it out. So they were also aware that they could not leave their house.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
They had to stay in their house 24 hours a day because if they left, the government would come and bulldoze their house while they were gone and be like, T.S., what are you going to do? And they had no choice, but just holding out was kind of a protest and to draw attention to this generally unfair practice.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Because, I mean, any government can exercise eminent domain, but typically you want to give at least market value. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
It's nuts because they were on like their porch, like a second floor balcony. And they're looking down and you're looking down, not at a front yard, you're looking down at the road. Like it went right around this house.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah. So that was a spiteful road.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah. So the story went that in the late 19th century, I think December 17th, 1898, this bridge between Bonn and Buell, which was supposed to be a joint construction project between the two, ended up being paid for entirely by Bonn because Buell was like, we'll use the bridge, but we're not going to pay for it. You go ahead and pay for it.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
And so under wraps until this unveiling of the bridge was that little statue of a little man carved into the bridge with his butt sticking out, basically mooning Buell.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Can you imagine just the hilarity of seeing that?
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
When it was unveiled? Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah, and you can believe that any time you had out-of-town guests visit, you had to take them to go see the little bridge man.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
So, yeah, they ended up what was supposed to be a joke at the expense of Buell ended up to be an actual expense for the city of Bonn because they had to pay this fee to get onto the bridge. But supposedly they're friendly rivals still, or they were. Now I think they're one town, kind of like Budapest. There's Buda and Pest, and it's separated by the river, but it's still one city now. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
That's how I understand it. So you can still see the little bridge man, but he's not the original. The original was almost destroyed in the Second World War. The bridge was at least, but they were able to get their hands on the statue and get them out of the Rhine. They put them back on the rebuilt bridge, but then some local youths in 1960 destroyed that.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
So now there's a recreation of it on the bridge. Right.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah. Little punks at least. Yeah. So that was a little bridge man made out of spite.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Want to learn about a terrorist or don't call a pterodactyl? How to take a perfect poop and all about fractals? Genghis Khan. Attila the Hun. The Lizzie Borden murders and the cannibal runs. Don't explain everything to your brain.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Hey, everybody. It's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah, and actually the way that this neighborhood was arranged is a cul-de-sac, but in the center of the cul-de-sac was Bill Ansell's house. So with his light display, it was just kind of like driving through a holiday light display because you just drive past and go all the way around and come back on the other side and leave. It's kind of perfect, actually. It was perfect.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
And Bill Ansell definitely thought it was perfect. But like you said, the neighbors were like, man, come on, this is... 100,000 watts of Christmas joy, it's too much. So can we do something about this? Bill Ansell apparently was not the type to take criticism well. Sounds like it. I think he actually was required to take down the holiday display.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yes. I think they cited him for an out-of-season decoration or something like that, right? So he took it down, but in short order, he put up a new display and specifically designed it so that the neighbors regretted ever asking him to take down the original joyous display. And he did this, Chuck, out of spite.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
There was also a warning, a sign that said Ross Township, don't touch any of this property. If you do, there will be bloodshed.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah. No, it totally is. And there was another one. I read an interview with 2020 with the neighbors who were like, this guy actually wrote a sign. I didn't see what he said, but he came up with the disparaging sign for the deceased wife of Tom White, one of the neighbors. The day after she died, he put up some sign disparaging her. Yeah. This guy was definitely off the chain with this thing.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
And I mean, like he would stay up at night and hit metal with sledgehammers to make noise. He had floodlights pointed directly in the neighbor's houses. And I mean, living like that's bad enough, but they said something that stuck out to me that I hadn't thought of. That's like, this is a living nightmare.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
When you have a neighbor like that and you sell your house, anytime you have a showing, they're going to turn around before they even get out of their car. That's like you're trapped. They were totally trapped there. And despite the township fining him, despite court orders, like you said, he kept it up year round and he kept it up for years.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yes. I thought that there was definitely a parallel between those guys, too.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Sure. And if your neighbors come to you with a complaint about some special thing that's special to you, rather than going off the handle, maybe say, well, let's figure out a compromise because this is really important to me.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Sure. And if they're like, no, we insist you take it down, then you do something out of spite. At least give them a fighting chance.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Spite plus. We want to thank not just our friends at 2020, but our friends at Mental Floss, too, for pointing that one out to us.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
So I think we got a couple more, right?
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah, and it was a very lucrative contract. A lot of people were playing like the world's smallest violin for Prince at the time.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
But not to spite our faces, to spite the Vikings. No.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
20 years later, re-signed with the same company.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
I got you. Okay. Did not realize that. But this was like a $100 million contract. It was worth $215 million today. It was a big, fat contract.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
The thing is, is Prince, I saw like when he died, when they went and do his audio archives, they're like he could release an album like every month for the next 50 years or something like that. He had that much stuff recorded.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
And he wanted to release music really fast. quickly and with high turnover. And Warner Brothers is like, no, you're going to flood the market. You're going to shoot yourself in the foot. You can only release X number of albums every, say, 12 months. So like one a year maybe or something like that. He didn't like that.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
And then apparently Warner Brothers owned the rights to his songs too, which I'm quite sure he really, really didn't like. So to get out of his contract, he thought, well, okay, the contract is between Prince and Warner Brothers. I'm going to change my name and maybe the contract won't be valid any longer. I'm not sure how much he actually believed that because Prince wasn't a dumb person at all.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
But at the very least, he was trying to humiliate Warner Brothers, make life harder for them. And he did all this, as you said, out of spite.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah, one of the things that Warner Brothers, too, had to do, Chuck, was they had to send out digital files to the media. And this is the 90s because there was no way to, there was no, like, combination of keys on the keyboard to make this symbol. So they had to send a digital image of the symbol for the, like, newspapers or magazines or whatever to insert into their articles about Prince.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
It is horrific. Yeah. No, I'm not saying like this is a laugh riot or anything like that. I'm just saying.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
And then finally, the media was just like, we're just going to call him the artist formerly known as Prince. And Prince was like, damn.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
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Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
He just showed up there like, how did I get here?
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Anyway, back to the horrific story. Saint Aby said, and she wasn't a saint at the time, but this certainly helped her case later on. She said, come nuns, let's go sit around and talk. I have something to say to you. To prevent ourselves from losing our chastity, from being raped by these Vikings, we're going to cut off our own noses.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah, we were going to do the same thing. And that's actually what we were going to scalp. We were going to go. And I don't remember why we didn't. But that's kind of par for the course for me because I did that with Prince. I did that with Pink Floyd. I did that with Stevie Ray Vaughan. And I did that with the Grateful Dead. I was just like, I'll see him next time.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yumi saw him for some tour, I think Musicology tour, and she was like hands down the best show I've ever seen.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Apparently he was quite the dancer.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah, he was cool. He was one of those guys that you appreciate the older you get. You know what I mean?
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Great. Let's move on to the pink house, Chuck, the last of the last.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
No, that's a little pink house. This is just the pink house.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Just a desolate marshland.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
And it's just looking at it, it's very eerie, especially now it's abandoned. It's kind of ramshackle and run down. But it was built on Plum Island, and it's considered one of the all-time great examples of a spite house. And a spite house is basically any house, wall, structure that's built to get under someone else's skin, right? So sometimes it's built to block their view.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
We talked about Henry Clay Frick building a mansion that was bigger than Andrew Carnegie's that would be considered a spite house. And in America, they go back at least until 1806. That was the earliest one I could find. Yeah. But this one on Plum Island off the coast of Newburyport, Massachusetts, which, by the way, is one of the more charming towns in the entire country.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Oh, I've never been there. Oh, it's wonderful. That's where this pink house is. And there's a great backstory to it that makes it a spite house.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yep, he did. So he built it on Plum Island. At the time, there was no one else living there. No fresh water, no electricity. It was just the worst place you could build a house. And he said, there you go. There's your spite house. And he walked away rubbing the dust off of his hands. What do you call that?
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
I'm going to cut off my lip and maybe I'll inspire you to do the same. And the rest of the sisters said, yes, let's do that. And they did. And there's actually old like wood cuttings. And there's at least one stained glass panel of this happening. And it's gory. Even as a wood cutting, it's gory.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah, we need to come up with a name for that, right?
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
So, yeah, that's how it ended. And the story went that she lived there for a while and sold it. And it actually was inhabited, weirdly enough, by a succession of people up until 2011. Wow.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
In that sense, yes, it did. But it's just, I mean, like the sea off of Massachusetts can be fairly unforgiving. So, you know, this is an old house from the 1920s. It's going to probably be kind of drafty depending on the time of year.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yes, but you would have to paint it pink or else everybody in Newburyport would hate you.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
And it was made out of spite. Or was it, Chuck?
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Right. Which is a much less interesting story. So we're just going to go with spite house for that one. Agreed. All right. Well, that's it for things done out of spite. We hope you enjoyed it. And since I said we hope you enjoyed it, it's time for Listener Mail.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Tree Marchink from South Carolina. Thanks a lot. That's a good one. And I remember we talked a little bit about Zimbabwe's hyperinflation. Oh, yeah. People were like showing up with actual wheelbarrows of cash because it was just going nuts.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Great, great example. Yeah, we've got to do that episode.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
For sure. Well, if you want to be like Tree and fill us in on something we've said we want to know about, we'd love that kind of thing. You can send us an email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
And when the Vikings showed up, they found these nuns missing their noses, bleeding, missing their lips, just in quite a state. And they were like, we're just going to move on to the next monastery and see what we find there. The nuns, however, their lives were not spared, were they? No.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah. But there's a different way of looking at this, and that is that these nuns protected their chastity, which, as you said, is like really, really important. They're known as the brides of Christ. Yeah. And that's one of the reasons why they're chaste, why they're meant to die virgins, is because they have given themselves to Christ or to God.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
So as long as they're chaste and they die chaste, then they have fulfilled this covenant. Even if it's not by their own will or decision that they lose their virginity, if they lose it through force, it's still not quite the same as dying chaste. So they manage to come out on top, religiously speaking. So that's that story.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Oh, the reason why it doesn't have anything to do with cutting your nose off to spite your face is because that phrase means that you're doing something in revenge to somebody else or to harm somebody else, but you're actually harming yourself much worse than you are them.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Right. So that's a heck of a way to kick off what was supposed to be a semi lighthearted top 10 list.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
It's kind of like there's another saying that hating somebody is like drinking poison and expecting them to die.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
It's a good one. It really gets the point across. It makes you not want to hate or steal something about someone else.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Thanks a lot. I just made it up. Look at you dropping nugs.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah, anytime like Carnegie's companies, I can't remember which steel company he owned, but anytime there was like some misstep or bad decision or business went awry, Frick would send a note like chiding him or taunting him for having made a terrible decision. Like just constantly kept it up. There was, I think Carnegie built a mansion in New York.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
And Frick was like, oh, yeah, I'm going to build an even bigger one right down the street just to show you up, like would not let it go.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah. His other thing that he was said to have said was not until he admits that I'm the Mary and you're the Rhoda. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Like the original where she worked at the TV station?
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
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Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Those shows used to like just be written so well too and acted too.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
I can't remember. There's one episode where... I think Ted.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
He was doing, he was doing something and it was so ridiculous and preposterous, but he was playing it straight so well that the rest of the cast just started cracking up and like they couldn't not, they did it in every take and it ended up kind of in the show. It's some classic, like well-known episode, but check that one out. Make sure you, you see that one too.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Valerie Bertinelli? No. Valerie.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
All right. I'll check it out.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Well, thanks for the recommendation.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Yeah. He said, sure, I invaded Kuwait, but that doesn't mean you have to come over here and liberate Kuwait. And George Bush said, yes, we do. And as a result, after this war, Saddam Hussein was still in power. And he apparently was willing to use his power in all sorts of weird ways. In tacky ways, frankly.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
And one of the ways he did that was he had a mosaic mural, an unflattering mosaic mural of George Bush laid into the floor of the entrance of the Al Rashid Hotel, one of the nicest hotels in Baghdad, if not the nicest. And the whole reason was it also said Bush is criminal on it, too. And the reason was that anyone coming into this well-traveled hotel would walk right over George Bush's face.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Right. Or taken out back and shot one of the two.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
I did. It is an unflattering portrait, but you can totally tell who it is.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
I don't think so. From what I saw, it looked just like a picture. I didn't see a close-up of it. I just saw a soldier standing next to it. Yeah, I couldn't find one either. Like the head was out of proportion with the body.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Right. The sledgehammers had don't mess with Texas engraved on them.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
No more lines, no more hassles, just affordable, fast care. Thanks to Amazon Pharmacy and Amazon One Medical, healthcare just got less painful. Learn more at health.amazon.com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and this is Stuff You Should Know. And this episode, Chuck just made fun of, even though I took pride in helping to assemble it.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
But yeah, I mean, that's spiteful, right? To make a mosaic portrait of one of your sworn enemies so that your people walk all over him.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
All right. So we have a definitive example of spite.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Well, then I think that means we should take a break while we're ahead.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Want to learn about a pterosaur and call a pterodactyl? How to take a perfect poop and all about fractals? Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, the Lizzie Borden murders and the cannibal runs. Don't explain everything till your brain explodes. It's Chuck and Josh and stuff you should know.
Stuff You Should Know
10ish Instances of People Doing Things Out Of Spite
Okay, Chuck, I guess we should, at this point, decide which one we're not going to do if we're doing 3-3-3-3.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
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Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Well, it's officially too cold to do anything, Chuck. But the upside is that you can cocoon yourself in Bombas socks, slippers and underwear all winter long.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, and Bama's knows that the little things really do make a big difference. So they removed all the itchy tags, fixed the annoying toe seam, and perfected the fit of everything. No more socks that slip down or underwear that rides up. Just perfect comfort.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
So we promised to talk about the Black Death. Apparently one of the high-profile, I guess, forensic dentistry cases recently was a study that looked at the teeth of, or I think it extracted DNA from the pulp of the teeth of medieval villagers who died from the plague. And I guess they were able to exclude the plague in some cases, right?
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Like people had died and it was falsely attributed to a death from the plague. That seems almost inconsequential to me because the other thing that they did was definitively prove that you're seeing a pestis, which is a bacteria, I think a bacteria that's carried by fleas typically. So the rats came to town. The fleas were on the rats. The bacteria was on the fleas.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
And that's what spread the Black Death. That's what they've long said. And they extracted that from the DNA of the pulp of teeth of medieval people who died from the plague, definitely died from the plague, and said, yep, here's your smoking gun. There's your problem.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
You should have just smoked a bunch of cigarettes, done it yourself, saved some money.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
And I also saw the oldest tooth that they successfully sequenced a genome from by extracting DNA from the pulp was 6,000 years old, from about 4,000 BCE. Back in 2005, they managed to do that. And you know those people are still talking about, like, hey, did I ever tell you about the 4,000 BCE tooth we extracted DNA from?
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Oh, God. Good God. That was awful. I was not expecting that.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Oh, OK. Well, then, yeah, you definitely need to hand those off for staining in the lab.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, that's a big one. Also, bruising and lividity can also obscure a bite mark or change it or alter it. So they often have to wait for the bruise to heal if the human's still alive or wait for the lividity, the pooling of blood to just kind of come and go before they really examine it.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, there was a 2015 study that found they used 39 experts. These were board-certified forensic odontologists or members of the American Board of Forensic Odontologists, the accrediting body. I don't know why I went into that much detail, but there you have it.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
In this study with this 39 experts, they showed 100 photographs of bite marks and said, OK, we want some information about this. Are these, let's just start with, is this a human bite mark or an animal bite mark?
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Exactly. And only 8% of the photographs. So eight of a hundred photographs. I just did that math and I'm quite confident it's correct.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Could 90% of those experts, I don't know what 90% of 39 is, come to consensus that, yes, this is definitely human or, yes, this is definitely animal? That's hard to believe. Yeah, they did not agree on the other 92 photographs.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, especially if the animal's wearing human dentures at the time.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Uh, yeah, like that, you know, that cartoon wolf from the old timey 1930s cartoon. I don't think I know that. Oh, sure you do. He was always like his eyes would pop out of his head and like he was. Oh, yeah. You know, like.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, it is pretty gross. I mean, the whole process from start to finish is fairly gross in that case.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Well, they classify them based on the kind of transfer pattern is what they call it. And it's not just specific to forensic odontology. Transfer patterns are what you're looking at when you look at the rifling on a bullet to try to identify what gun it came out of, which also apparently is junk science. fingerprints, you're transferring your fingerprints. So it leaves a transfer pattern.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Same thing with forensic odontology and the different kinds of forensic patterns are based on the damage that the bites do. So if it scrapes, like if you're, I don't need to put it any other way. That's considered an abrasion bite.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, when there's an actual part of the body missing because of the bite. It's not just a bite mark. There's actually tissue or something missing, like an earlobe, I think, like Evander Holyfield's earlobe.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
I'll tape it for you on the VCR. All right, send me the tape.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yes. And then there's also the different depths or the obviousness of the bite mark is another category that they use. And it starts from lowest to highest. It took me a minute to figure this out because I don't think the wording they used is really good. Agreed. A clear impression means that there was significant pressure used. That's the lowest of the three categories. Yes.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
An obvious one signifies medium pressure, which that to me just shows that this is not accurate science. Medium is a type of fry order, French fry order. Right. The, you know, depth of a bite mark. Like medium is so subjective, right?
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
All three of these are. And then noticeable, that seems to me like that would be the least of the three. That's the most pronounced bite mark of all because the biter used violent pressure to bite down.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, for sure. There's also some other things that the biter can do during the biting. If they use their jaw a bunch, it's not just one bite where they clamp down. If they bite in succession a few times, That was going to leave a totally different mark from one that is going to where they just clamp their jaw down or something.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
If they move their tongue, it will move the skin around and will affect the bite mark that's left behind. We should have probably given like a heads up at the outside of this episode, huh?
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Oh, good one. And then there's another one, too. If the victim is being is still in my which to me means dead because nobody's going to sit still while they're being bitten hard enough to leave a bite mark that could be used against you in court. But, you know, if they're moving, that's going to affect the bite mark that's left behind, too.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
And then, of course, also the kind of tooth profile they have, too, right?
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, like if you ate a bunch of chips and they're just stuck between your teeth. Is that what you meant?
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
In some cases, they would say things like with 100 percent certainty.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Another thing that they say, too, that we'll find that seems to not be at all true is that each person's arrangement and teeth, like your mouth, everything inside your mouth is totally unique, like your fingerprints. And that apparently is not true at all. But you'll find it all over the Internet as fact.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah. I mean, just from researching this, it's like what kind of judge is still allowing this in as evidence? It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess I just revealed my take on forensic dentistry or bite mark analysis specifically because the other version you said identifying deceased people is – Not as controversial. No, it's pretty much set.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah. Well, let's take that break and we'll come back and we'll talk about all the controversy surrounding bite mark analysis as a part of forensic odontology. Man, that's a mouthful. If you're driving right now, look around. I'll wait. All those cars you see, they're all probably on autotrader.com.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
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Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
What does that stand for? The National Institute of Standards and Technology. They're like a federal agency, if I'm not mistaken.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
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Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
I didn't read anybody who was challenging it or its legitimacy. And apparently it's been really useful over the years because the teeth are the strongest part of the body. They can survive fire. They can survive exposure to chemicals that could just get rid of the rest of the body. They can survive explosions up to, I think, 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. They can take heat up to that.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, yeah. In my opinion. Yeah, for sure. But the fact is that study, and we should also caveat that with the fact that this study used dental charts only. And they made sure that they were highly high quality dentists. dental charts that they examined.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
But the fact that they were able to find dental charts that were identical between two people totally undermines the idea that everybody's mouth is unique. Everybody's teeth arrangement is unique.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, and this was 2,000 dental charts. They didn't choose, like, three. Like, this was a pretty decent, high-quality study. And, yeah, I think it totally undermines that. But, like you said, yes, there's also enough uniqueness that you can kind of use this. And I think, like you said, nobody's really saying, like, stop doing bite mark analysis entirely. Right.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
And actually in their defense, the American Board of Forensic Odontology says they basically admit like, hey, we made some mistakes in the past. We've cleaned up our act. We've revised our guidelines. And now if you're a legitimate forensic odontologist, the furthest you will go is to make three different calls.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
One, exclude, meaning that this person's teeth could not have possibly made the bite mark that you're showing me, cops.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Not exclude, which is only saying it's possible. I'm not going to go any further than that, but their teeth resemble enough this bite mark pattern, this bite pattern, that it's possible that this person made it. And then inconclusive. And that's as far as they're supposed to go. They're not supposed to in that sense. I guess you could testify those three things.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
But if the prosecutor is like, OK, so so not exclude, you're saying it's his right there. They're supposed to bail essentially at that point. They're not supposed to go any further than that. That's the standard in the guidelines for forensic dentists doing bite analysis, bite mark analysis today. But there's still plenty of people out there who are going beyond that.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, he was sentenced to jail. I think was that Roy Brown?
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
As anyone who's made it far enough in Breaking Bad knows that eventually, if it gets hot enough, they'll pop like popcorn. But most of the time, if a dead person who's unidentifiable comes into a medical examiner's office, they have not been exposed to that level of heat.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
OK, so, yeah, he spent almost 20 years in jail, 15 years from 92 to 2007, largely based on that that bite mark analysis testimony.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, that was a big one, too. I think maybe in one of those cases where they were appealing it. I don't know if it was Roy Brown's, but there have been plenty of forensic odontologists who have gone back and been like, what I was saying apparently is not right or grounded in science. I recant my testimony. And at least one judge that I read was like, well, we didn't really need you.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
The jury could have come to the same conclusion that the bite mark matched their teeth. So I'm not going to overturn this case, which is nuts in and of itself. But Roy Brown is far from the only person who has been exonerated after being convicted on bite mark analysis, too, right? Like, haven't there been like at least 26 people?
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah. Remember when I was saying some expert witnesses on the stand say like this, it's 100 percent match. That happened to a guy named Roy Crone.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
He did 10 years based on bite mark analysis because you got to understand if you're a juror and the prosecution is saying like this person is an expert in forensic odontology and that expert tells you, the jurors, there is 100 percent match between that man's teeth and this bite mark on this murder victim. It's going to be tough to overlook that for the average juror, I would guess.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, there was another thing too, I think from that same study where they took the same experts and went back to them eight weeks with the exact same photos they'd shown them eight weeks before. And some of those experts didn't even agree with their previous assessments.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah. So that was and they weren't like, hey, you said this before. What do you think now? It was like they I think they thought that this is a new set of bite marks and they were just basically guessing is what they found. So it's been pretty thoroughly debunked. But people still use it. The Innocence Project has really taken an interest in this, and I think rightfully so.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
We did an episode on that with guests. If I remember correctly. And yeah, so they're a group that go around and basically free people who were railroaded or wrongfully convicted, usually based on DNA evidence that wasn't heard in their case. And so one of the things that they've done is taken interest in bite mark analysis.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
And one of the roles they play now is I don't know how they keep their finger on the pulse. But if a prosecutor, which is very rare these days, from what I understand, tries to introduce bite mark analysis into a case, the Innocence Project will show up and be like, we object to that. This is not science. This should not be admitted. And I think they're fairly successful.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
This is a big one. So there is a forensic odontologist from Mississippi named Michael West. And he essentially just changed careers to be an expert witness in forensic odontology. That's how he made his living.
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Forensic Dentistry
And he came up with a technique called the West Phenomenon, wherein you can, according to him, using some special goggles and a UV light, you can basically resurrect a bite mark that's healed years later and see it well enough that you can compare it to a suspect's bite and use it to convict. He totally made it up.
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Forensic Dentistry
Apparently, at least in the first case that he used it on, he took photographs, but he wouldn't share them with anybody. So it was just his testimony that this person was convicted on. And it became a tool of the trade. So other people, including John Konko, were convicted in part because of this West phenomenon, which is part of the overall junk forensic science.
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Forensic Dentistry
So this is the junkiest of the junk that people were being convicted on.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
But he sold them as X-ray goggles that you could look right through people's clothes with. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah. You just use it to exclude. That's what most people can agree on for bite mark analysis is as far as they'll go.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Chuck, did I ever tell you about Paul Revere in Forensic Odontology?
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Forensic Dentistry
Yeah. So Paul Revere, in addition to being a blacksmith, he was a dentist too. And one of the things he did, he was one of the first forensic odontologists who used dental records based on his own knowledge too. He made dental work for a lot of people in the Revolutionary War.
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Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, I disagree. But yes, we'll find out. You think? I'm going to go find something.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, you forgot forensic foot smelling. Then we're going to have to go do that one.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Right. Nice. Oh, actually, I can do this old school, too, because if you want to know more about forensic dentistry, you can go check out a HowStuffWorks article that we used in part for this episode. That is kicking it old school, isn't it?
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Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, and since I kicked it old school, then it's time for Listener Mail.
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Forensic Dentistry
If you want to be like Steve and tell us that you had to pull over because you were so overcome by something we did or said, we love that kind of thing, especially if it was positive, not because it was so terrible that you had to pull over. But even if that was the case, you can still email us. Either way, send it off to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
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Forensic Dentistry
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No more lines, no more hassles, just affordable, fast care. Thanks to Amazon Pharmacy and Amazon One Medical, healthcare just got less painful. Learn more at health.amazon.com. Well, it's officially too cold to do anything, Chuck. But the upside is that you can cocoon yourself in Bombas socks, slippers and underwear all winter long.
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Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, and Bama's knows that the little things really do make a big difference. So they removed all the itchy tags, fixed the annoying toe seam, and perfected the fit of everything. No more socks that slip down or underwear that rides up. Just perfect comfort.
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Forensic Dentistry
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Forensic Dentistry
Yes, and that was a very fateful decision because as that case made its way through appeals and a final appellate court upheld it, that also simultaneously not only convicted the killer, it also said this is legitimate. Bite mark analysis is admissible in court. It set a precedent. And that exception that those three forensic dentists in their defense
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Forensic Dentistry
you know, went to bat for for use in this particular case became the rule. And there was no longer like, hey, this is not actually that great of an idea. It was, hey, we've got this new way of prosecuting scumbags. Let's use it to the max.
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Forensic Dentistry
And there was a really famous case within just a couple of years of it becoming widely used in American courts that's still celebrated today as one of the great successes of bite mark analysis. Because it's not like every single case is worse than the last.
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Forensic Dentistry
But there's enough bad cases and enough people who've been wrongly convicted and later exonerated based on bite mark evidence that it should not be allowed. You just go figure out who did it some other way. Stop using bite mark analysis.
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Forensic Dentistry
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Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, the two Chi Omega women who died, who did not manage to live, were Lisa Levy and Margaret Bowman. But he did some pretty terrible damage to the other two, I guess. But that bite mark, apparently Ted Bundy had extremely crooked front teeth. So much so in the bite mark was clear enough that they use that bite mark analysis in part to convict him for those murders.
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Forensic Dentistry
Those were he apparently admitted to killing 30 women, possibly killed as many as 100. And so one of the one of the cases he was prosecuted for were the Kyle Omega murders.
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Forensic Dentistry
Yeah. And also by law, I think every state requires dentists to keep dental charts on their patients. And then they also have to retain them for a set number of years, depending on which state demands what. So they do come in handy, just the charts alone. Well, like there's not going to be x-rays with them necessarily. There's not going to be any photographs.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Just from the charts and the coding systems that they've worked out to codify teeth can conceivably give you enough information that you could use it in some form of forensic dentistry. That's how accurate the charts are meant to be.
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Forensic Dentistry
Yeah. Yeah. It takes a special kind of dentist to do this kind of work because by the time the cadaver, the corpse has made it to the forensic dentist, everybody else upstream has said like, no, they don't have fingerprints. Their face is unrecognizable. It just keeps going on and on and on until finally your last chance of identifying the person is forensic dentistry.
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Forensic Dentistry
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's not here, but she's here in spirit. We're all flashing our pearly whites because we're in a lineup and this is Stuffish.
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Forensic Dentistry
And they'll often, I mean, like if it's a mass casualty, you know, you know who is on the plane. Apparently that's when it comes in handy a lot for plane crashes. You know all the passengers on the plane. You go get their dental records. You hand them over to the forensic dentist and say, good luck. Can you match any of these teeth with these charts?
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Forensic Dentistry
And they're, I mean, they're a huge part of a forensic team in like mass casualty events. They're really important because, again, they're like – The last hope of some families getting closure, being able to like give their loved one a funeral or something like that. Like that's the role that they're playing.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
They're not doing this because they like just playing with dead people's teeth or anything like that. Like they are helping other humans with their work by identifying disaster victims, not extending that to bite mark analysis.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Well, not only that, you can also like when your teeth develop as a human, it follows a set pattern. So you can go and look at somebody's development, especially if they're under age, I think 20 something or 35 and say, well, they have they've developed this tooth, but they haven't developed this tooth. So they're probably 18 ish.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
Did you see any pictures of a skull with a wear from pipe smoking? Yeah. It's crazy. It's like the person's teeth like curve up at some point, like on basically I think it was the right side of their face, just from holding a pipe in their teeth for years and years and years.
Stuff You Should Know
Forensic Dentistry
I also saw another lifestyle one was something called a tailor's notch. This is pretty arcane. But if you find a tailor's notch, there's a chance that this was a dressmaker, a tailor, something like that, because they hold pins in their mouths as part of their profession, usually in their teeth.
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Forensic Dentistry
And when you do that enough times, it actually wears a little indentation in the tooth that you normally hold the sewing needle in. So do you want to talk about the Black Death or just keep moving on? Let's take a break. Okay.
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Forensic Dentistry
Hey, everybody. It's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
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Forensic Dentistry
Yeah, and when it's time to collect that money, Squarespace offers an easier way to collect payments so you can focus on growing your business. You can invoice clients and get paid for your services, turn leads into clients with proposals, estimates, and contracts, and simplify your workflow and manage your service business on one platform. What else could you possibly ask for?
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Forensic Dentistry
If you're driving right now, look around. I'll wait. All those cars you see, they're all probably on autotrader.com.
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Forensic Dentistry
AutoTrader has been attracting car shoppers for years now, and for good reason. Not only do they have supercharged search features that allow you to easily find your perfect car, AutoTrader has Kelley Bluebook MyWallet. From credit scores to down payments to interest rates, we all know that car buying requires a lot of math, so enter MyWallet on AutoTrader.
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How Automats Worked
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A.
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Thanks to the ease and convenience of Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy, healthcare just got less painful.
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Yep, delivered online, APU's programs make it possible to learn wherever life takes you. And courses are offered in 8- and 16-week formats with monthly start dates so you can begin when it's convenient and progress at a pace that's comfortable for you.
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So visit apu.apus.edu slash military to learn more. American Public University, education that moves with you.
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How Automats Worked
Thank you for not throwing up long enough to record this episode.
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How Automats Worked
Man, that is awful. Are you going to be able to record tomorrow?
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How Automats Worked
Yeah, there was a really low likelihood that one customer was going to expose themselves to the other customers. It just wasn't that kind of place, right?
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How Automats Worked
And like you said, they are gorgeous. They were Art Deco, which was the trend at the time. Beautiful. And they would have, some of them had like two-story facades. There was a lot of marble stained glass, bronze everywhere. They had big windows that let in tons of light. Some of them had a mezzanine upstairs dining area. They were huge.
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How Automats Worked
And then they also paid attention to details too, like that famous coffee that you were talking about. You would put your nickel in this cool little dispenser and the coffee came out of an Italianate Dolphin's mouth.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
I didn't see, but I'll get you one just as a present for recording today. How about that?
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How Automats Worked
Kind of like the Merv Griffin set. They just found him out back of a Burger King. What? I never heard that. You remember in Seinfeld when Kramer found the old Merv Griffin set and he started hosting the Merv Griffin show in his apartment?
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How Automats Worked
That's right. So you said they were rigorously clean. That was one of the things they were known for. The other thing they were known for was that their food was like Like, really fresh. I couldn't think of a non-offensive way to put it, but it was a really fresh take on food.
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How Automats Worked
Yeah. Or two and a half cents. Yeah. If you could find a half cent.
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How Automats Worked
For sure. As long as it hasn't fallen on the street in public. Right. For sure. No street pie. And they were also known for that really good coffee, right, that came out of dolphins' mouths. So at the time, if you were in America, the coffee you drank, and this is the, I don't know, the 1910s, it was boiled. Yeah. And there was no filter, no nothing. So like grounds would come out.
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How Automats Worked
So your coffee was gritty. There was no filter, again, to take out any of the oils, any of the tastes. It was harsh, harsh coffee. And that's what people drank. And you liked it and you didn't complain because the coffee would punch you in the face if you did. It was that kind of coffee. Well, Horn and Hardart had a different take. They had French drip, right? Yeah.
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How Automats Worked
which still makes pretty good coffee. But at the time, you had to go to New Orleans to get coffee like that. And Horn and Hart are serving the stuff in New York and Philadelphia at all of their 60-plus automats for a nickel. And every 20 minutes, they throw out the old coffee and bring in fresh stuff.
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How Automats Worked
Yeah, and I did the math. In 1912, which is when they hit New York, a nickel was worth $1.60 today. By 1950, it was worth 64 cents. So they started definitely losing money over time on that coffee.
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How Automats Worked
Maybe we can tie it into the idea that I had about why everything is so much more expensive now, even relatively speaking, than it used to be.
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How Automats Worked
But even still, even doubling the price from a nickel to a dime in 1950s money, that was still 20 or so cents less than what they were getting for it in 1912.
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How Automats Worked
Adjusting for inflation. So it sounds like to me. The bigger problem is that they just doubled it overnight. And again, that's all they could do because their slots only took nickels. So that's what they had to deal with. But like you said, even still, they came out on top revenue wise.
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How Automats Worked
Yeah, I think every. Yeah, because they were pretty proper back then, too, you know, pie for breakfast. Even today, though, I went and looked. I was like, OK, surely our attitudes have changed. No, no, they haven't. If you look up breakfast pies, it's all like, you know, breakfast stuff. But in like a pie shell or something like that, there's no one out there eating actual pie for breakfast.
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How Automats Worked
You can make the case that almost all breakfast foods are desserts in the United States, man. Have you heard of like IHOP?
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How Automats Worked
Although I don't like biscuits very much as a sandwich. I like a biscuit on its own. Like say a Cracker Barrel, if you get biscuits and honey, really good. But if you take that biscuit, cut it in half and put anything like an egg or cheese or something on it, I'm like, this is grody. Give me an English muffin. Make it a mick. Wow. Okay. For sure. Never knew that.
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How Automats Worked
You need to learn four words in Spanish. I'll have that neat.
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How Automats Worked
That's funny. So I guess they decided that that 99-cent price really brought people in more than a $1 movie would, huh?
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How Automats Worked
One of the things, though, Chuck, did you see, I guess, in the documentary, the nickel throwers and like the bubble glass, the glass bubble fronted things that they said and they look like fortune tellers.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
But it was part of that whole ornate look to everything. Like just the whole most of those places were really pretty.
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How Automats Worked
So one of the things, though, is including people like Neil Simon, other people who were interviewed in the Automat documentary, people tend to remember the food as like good food. And it's entirely possible it was for a while. But the older, the longer you go along in the history of the automat, the worse the food probably got for a little while.
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How Automats Worked
So it's not entirely clear that the food was actually good toward the end. And we can't really say because, again, the last one closed in 1991. And I'm guessing by the time that one closed. It probably wasn't too good. Right. You shouldn't really compare the food in general over the course of the history of the automat to that last one.
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How Automats Worked
But I'm guessing it was probably pretty decent for a while based on some of the stuff I'm reading.
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How Automats Worked
You know, I'm with you. So, Chuck, I say we talk about how automated the automat really was because it turns out not really. It was really a facade. Literally, it was a facade of food that seemed to be mysteriously conjured out of nowhere, possibly by robots. Yeah.
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How Automats Worked
Yeah, so say that you went up and you're like, I'm going to have that delicious bowl of bubbling, greasy oyster stew that's just sitting there looking at me in the face. I think one of those oysters might still be alive. That's how good it was, right? And you put your nickel in and you pull the lever, correct? Yes.
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How Automats Worked
Well, that's what we're doing. We're doing an episode on automats. There's nothing more newsier current than that.
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How Automats Worked
Or like you were buying cigarettes as a kid when you were 14 in a coin-operated machine. That kind of lever is what I'm talking about, right?
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How Automats Worked
Exactly. So, you would do something like that and then either it would open, like it would allow the little glass compartment window to open up so you could get your oyster stew or what have you from inside. Or it might rotate a drum, like you were saying, so that that oyster stew was now available to you and you'd open the window and then…
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How Automats Worked
there would be an open compartment in the back of the drum that somebody who was working the back of the automatic cases would see was empty and would put a new thing of oyster stew in there. And then the whole thing would just continue. I also saw that some of them had a photo of the food and that, yeah, you would like open the case and just pull it out.
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How Automats Worked
And then the people in back would notice that that one was empty. But suffice to say, however, the food came out, There was a way to see in the rear that that compartment needed refilling. And one of the things Horn and Hardart was known for was employing armies of people who made sure that that food was there, that the compartments were full, and that the food was fresh too.
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How Automats Worked
That the Salisbury steak wasn't getting jiggly. You know what I mean? Yeah.
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How Automats Worked
There was also an actor named Apache Ramos, who is best known for playing one of the orphans in The Warriors. But also is lesser known as having managed the Fat Boys in the 80s.
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How Automats Worked
Yeah. What a great Afro. Yeah. But he also managed the Fat Boys like the Fat Boys are back. Uh huh. In the 80s. He worked at an automat and so did his grandmother. I'm assuming one or the other got the other one the job. But he remembered that the Horn and Hardart would throw holiday parties for the workers' children around like Christmas time. Oh, man.
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How Automats Worked
Can you imagine how beautiful those places looked when they were decorated for Christmas parties in like the 50s and 60s? Yeah. You know, people are like, if you could ever go back in time, what would you do? I would go to that Christmas party.
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How Automats Worked
Your friend Richie was like, well, my dad owns the tire shop, so you can come to that. We don't really have a party, but we stand around.
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How Automats Worked
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank.
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Yes. Well, Amazon understands, which is why they created Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy. They're designed to remove these pain points from health care. With Amazon One Medical, you get 24-7 virtual care so you can see a provider within minutes and avoid those long, annoying waits.
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We have another huge shout-out to give. This is the first episode we're doing with help from our new writer, Laura Clausen.
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Thanks to the ease and convenience of Amazon One Medical and Amazon Pharmacy, healthcare just got less painful. Running a small business is complicated. There are, I don't know, dozens of software programs that you need, and they're all so expensive. And since they come from different companies, they don't always play nice with one another. But what can you do, right? Odoo. That's what.
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Odoo has all the software business owners need. We're talking CRM, sales, accounting, literally every kind of software. And it's all on one platform. So it works together. And it's quality software, so you're not sacrificing. It's just a better experience than a hodgepodge of programs. I mean, you'd expect to pay a premium for it, right? But that's the most amazing part about Odoo.
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This interconnected suite of business software costs less than the mishmash of disconnected programs you're currently using. less. So my question is, why spend more on programs that are less efficient when Odoo's simple software platform can handle everything for a fraction of the price? Discover how Odoo can take your business to the next level by visiting Odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com.
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Yep, delivered online, APU's programs make it possible to learn wherever life takes you. And courses are offered in 8- and 16-week formats with monthly start dates so you can begin when it's convenient and progress at a pace that's comfortable for you.
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So visit apu.apus.edu slash military to learn more. American Public University, education that moves with you. Okay, Chuck, just before we took a break, you nailed it on the head. You said we were talking about the inclusivity of the automat, and in particular, the Horn and Harder automat, which, again, they were synonymous with automats.
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How Automats Worked
I've been thinking, Chuck, a lot of our writers have good nicknames. Okay. Laura spells her last name like Claw, C-L-A-W, son. So I think we should call Laura Dr. Claw.
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How Automats Worked
They were one of the earliest chain restaurants in the United States to integrate, not discriminate against their clientele. Not just, you know, like unescorted women, God forbid. Right. But also racially speaking, economically speaking, like whoever came to a horn and heart or automat to eat was treated equally. And that was huge. I mean, we're talking starting in the 1910s. Yeah.
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How Automats Worked
That was an enormous deal. And that's something that, I mean, my hat's off to them for that.
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How Automats Worked
Yeah, it's pretty cool. There was also a historian named Lisa Keller, I believe in the documentary, pointed out that if you were an immigrant, this was a great place for you to go because you just went and looked at the food and put your nickel in. You didn't really have to be able to read or speak English and you could still get a good meal of oyster stew.
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How Automats Worked
I can't wait to see what Aaron Cooper does with this. Yeah.
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How Automats Worked
Yeah, and James Dean, his favorite baked beans in the world were Horn and Hardart's baked beans.
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How Automats Worked
That's right. He really knew what he was talking about, too. That's how he died in that car accident. He was eating some baked beans at the time and lost control of the steering wheel. Oh, God. That's not true, everybody. We did a short stuff on it. So. Yeah, exactly. Don't at me.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Right. Like how like when we were kids, you went to that city's like Hard Rock Cafe to get the shirt. Remember that?
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How Automats Worked
Yeah. You wear it with your Panama Jack sunglasses and everybody at home would be like you had a great summer, obviously.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Wowee. Did they put your guitar up under a glass case afterwards? They did. That'd be pretty sweet. They should.
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How Automats Worked
I actually have seen it. So if you don't have cable, but you have an antenna, over-the-air antenna.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Yeah, Wild West Room. I could not find a picture of that. But apparently one of the automats, this one in Times Square, they put a Wild West Room in in 1966. I mean, I'm sure people would have gone crazy for that in 1966.
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How Automats Worked
There's a station called MeTV, and they just play all sorts of great reruns and everything. Well, they just launched a whole new channel called MeTV Tunes, and they show some deep cut tunes. I mean, like Beetlejuice, the cartoon. There's Scooby Doo on at 6 p.m. Eastern every day, which makes me very happy. But they show Inspector Gadget, too.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
No, but instead of selling them, they said, hey, I've got an idea. Let's remove the automat and put Burger Kings in instead. There you have it. Franchises. So that's where you would have gotten your old automat cases is in the back of a Burger King.
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How Automats Worked
There's this one Burger King ad that keeps playing over and over and over again. I had to hit myself in the knee with a hammer to get it out of my head.
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How Automats Worked
That's like my oyster stew. Well, I guess I won't do a song right now. Actually, I know exactly why. Now we're even.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
So, yeah, I guess you can just if you can mute the TV fast enough, then you can keep watching me TV tunes.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
No, in those same families, they're like, oh, let's go down to the automat, step in, and they're like, oh, it's seedy here. So they stopped coming in, which just reinforced the ability of the homeless population to hang out in Horn and Hard Art. Horn and Hard Art's whole thing was serve everybody and serve everybody the same way. So as far as I ever saw, they weren't exactly rousting.
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How Automats Worked
vagrants who were hanging out drinking like a cup of coffee. And it just was basically the same story as the inner city in the United States in the 60s and 70s. Once the suburbs rose and everybody moved out of there and the neighborhoods and the communities that did survive had U.S.
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How Automats Worked
interstates built right through their neighborhoods, things just took a turn for the worse and the automat was not immune to that whole thing.
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How Automats Worked
Yeah. So the other thing, too, is it's interesting and I think it's kind of appropriate that Horn and Hardart got into fast food franchises because the automat kind of helped lay the foundation for that. But rather than hundreds of different dishes, which is apparently what Horn and Hardart offered at each of their automats.
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How Automats Worked
Um, you know, fast food has like 10 and like, yes, you can have it your way, but really you can have it your way choosing from these five ingredients or whatever. Um, and the, the, there were much like downscale, um, like surroundings. It was just like the automats, um, vision with all of the glitz and idealism removed from it. Then you have fast food franchises.
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How Automats Worked
And I was like, this is actually a much better cartoon than I remembered.
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How Automats Worked
That's right. It's a Gap. What else? Hmm. So, like you said, if you went to New York, like you go to the Empire State Building, you might go see a Broadway play and you would go eat at an automat. That's just how iconic it was. Right. It popped up like any time you're trying to get across how New York your your your movie was like there would be a scene in an automat or something like that. Yeah.
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How Automats Worked
Francis Ford Coppola apparently directed a movie in the 60s that featured an automat called Automat Now. Um, that showed up in, I'm kidding. Uh, it showed up. I get it now. I'm a little slow. Hey, I think you're doing magnificent for considering what you've been through the last couple of days, man.
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How Automats Worked
Um, Bugs Bunny went to an automat and the hair grows in Manhattan.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
And there's a book that I think I've heard of, but I'd never read from the mixed up files of Mrs. Basil E. Frankweiler.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Oh, no, I've got a really high-tech setup. I have hijacked the coaxial cables throughout my house, and I connected my outdoor antenna to the indoor cable feed so I can connect TVs throughout my house to get the reception from the outdoor antenna. Okay.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Well, the thing that sounds familiar to me is that these kids hide out living in the Met, the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
That's yeah. I guarantee that was an homage to that thing. Yeah. But anyway, in this children's book, these kids are runaways and they live in Met. That's the Met, right? The Met isn't the opera house. It's the art museum.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
OK, right. Well, one of the things that they do is they feed themselves by going to the automat.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Oh, yeah. Wes Anderson does not rip stuff off. He lovingly pays homage to it.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Andy Warhol, this is just what an artist he was. He could just talk about it. He just mentioned something in passing, and people are still talking about it 50 years later.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
But he said that he was going to come up with the chain of Andymats, which are like automats, but instead of having to go get your food from a case, you would sit down on like a red mohair banquette and order through a pneumatic tube. Yeah. And you would order frozen food and champagne. That's what he was going to offer at the Andy Matt.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
No, it didn't. But there's some people who are trying to revive it.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Yeah, I'm sure that they do. I remember going to Toledo Hospital to visit my mom when she was at work, and they had basically automat sandwiches. I always just thought it was like a vending machine. Yeah, but no, it was an automat basically.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
One of the things you can choose for that pizza maker is, I don't want the cheese to scald the roof of my mouth. And the pizza machine's like, yeah, yeah, sure, sure, definitely not.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
That makes me feel good about the effect I have on you. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
There you go. Well, since Chuck's back on his feet again, obviously anyone who's ever listened to this show before knows that he just unlocked the listener mail.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Yeah. So there you go. You don't need to just stream. You can also get free TV.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Mod Podge is what you use to glue together a big jumble of things that don't go together.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
That's great, Kelly. Thank you. And to the other thousand of you who wrote in, it's nice to know that there are people out there still using Mod Podge. It's fun. Yeah. I mean, it's fun to say. And it's got a cute label, too. Yeah. Mod Podge is really a lot of fun. I enjoy it. For sure. And we heard from Martha Stewart, too. She said, yes, I have Mod Podge laying around.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Well, if you want to be like who? Kelly. If you want to be like Kelly and write in to gently correct us, we love that kind of thing. You can send it via email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. Well, it's officially too cold to do anything, Chuck. But the upside is that you can cocoon yourself in Bombas socks, slippers and underwear all winter long.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Yeah, and Bama's knows that the little things really do make a big difference. So they removed all the itchy tags, fixed the annoying toe seam, and perfected the fit of everything. No more socks that slip down or underwear that rides up. Just perfect comfort.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
No, no. I don't have any announcements, but I do have a question for you.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
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Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Oh, nice. Okay. Well, Chuck, then I think you would have enjoyed a trip to the automat.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Yeah, your oyster stew. Blah. Yeah, but you would walk up and you'd just sit there with your finger like on your lower lip looking from case to case trying to figure out what appealed to you right then. Very much like you were looking at the menu, but you were looking at the actual food you were going to consume instead.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
So you didn't even need to be able to read to know what you wanted at an automat. And then, like you said, you put your money in and you'd get your food out and you'd go sit down. And to people who first went to the automat, Chuck, we're talking like this is the turn of the last century when they started to take off. This was as high tech as anything got.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Because it's really important to point out in like the first third, at least, of the 20th century, a lot of people in the United States didn't have a refrigerator. Right. They might have had an icebox, but they certainly didn't have anything pumping Freon through it.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
No, no cable TV. Not even over the air antennas in some cases. Yeah. No Beetlejuice the cartoon. And they also might not even have electricity in their home. So the idea of this futuristic serve yourself out of a glass case that's lit. Kind of experience was a really big deal.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
And what's even more remarkable is, so, okay, you're like, yeah, everybody in the 1910s was just a yokel by definition, right? These things lasted until the 1960s, and they were still viewed as these amazing places to go eat.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Yeah, let's start at the beginning. That seems appropriate.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Yeah, and it took a little college try, I guess, the first few times for it to make that leap across the Atlantic. And it was two guys, Joseph Horn and Frank Harder, whose last names have become synonymous with automats. In fact, depending on what city you were in, you would probably refer to the automat as a horn and hard art. They were like the Kleenex of automats, essentially, right? Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
They were already in business together. They owned a chain of cafeterias in Philadelphia. And they said, what's next? What will the future bring? And they figured out the best way to predict the future was to build it themselves. And I think they actually made a trip to Germany and found out about the automats. And they decided they wanted to bring it back to the United States.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
And like I said, it took a few attempts for them to actually get it to work, right?
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Yeah. And so Horn and Hardart's automats, I think, like you said, started in Philadelphia. And then after Harcone went out of business, Horn and Hardart kind of muscled in on that market, which is actually pretty brave because somebody had already proven that automats may not work in New York. Right. Good point. But I guess they had faith in their food.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's not here, but Chuck is, and Chuck's new nickname is Poopy McGee. Actually, Pukie McGee. Not both?
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
They were like, have you tried this oyster stew? It's amazing. I've got to stop saying that. And so they hit New York, I think, in 1912. By 1932, 20 years later, they had 42 automats in New York City, another 20 in Philadelphia. And H&H became the largest restaurant chain in the entire United States. The United States was big at the time.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
They were also known because they were clean and safe and you could get really good coffee for a nickel. They became places where you would just go sit and rest your dogs or take a load off for a little while or catch your breath, whatever you wanted to do for a little while. And one of the reasons why...
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
people did that was because part of the allure of the automat was that there was no front of house staff generally. There were no servers, there was no maitre d', there was no manager. If there was a manager, they were in the back. So you didn't feel like hustled or rushed or like anybody was judging you for sitting there as long as you want, nursing a single cup of five cent coffee.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
And so like automats kind of got that reputation where you could just go chill out. And as big of a deal as they were in New York and Philadelphia, they actually didn't take off everywhere, even though people tried because Horn and Hardart were so successful.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
I mean, that's like that cereal. It's like a plain white box that says Bran Flakes in just black font.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
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How Automats Worked
See CapitalOne.com slash bank. Capital One N.A. Member FDIC. Hey, everybody. It's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
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How Automats Worked
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How Automats Worked
Grave danger, I would say. Like, it's Wednesday at 3, and we need an episode for tomorrow at 5 a.m.
Stuff You Should Know
How Automats Worked
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The Barkley Marathons
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank.
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The Barkley Marathons
Yeah, and when it's time to collect that money, Squarespace offers an easier way to collect payments so you can focus on growing your business. You can invoice clients and get paid for your services, turn leads into clients with proposals, estimates, and contracts, and simplify your workflow and manage your service business on one platform. What else could you possibly ask for?
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
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Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
So like you said, I think in 1977, James Earl Ray escapes. And Cantrell lived in the area. He said it was big news at the time. So he was aware of this. And a few years later, he and his friend Carl Henn, known as Raw Dog, for reasons that I don't want to ask about.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
So they decided to hike into the state park. This is a place where he's like, okay, we could totally do so many more than eight miles in 54 hours. Let's go check this out and have fun. And like you said, most of this area are not... nature trails where like there's signs posted, there's a path you can look down and follow.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Like these are hard to find trails that you need to know how to use a compass, a contour map. Like you have to be good at orienteering is what it's called. That's right. In addition to hiking and putting up with all sorts of terrible, just uncomfortable stuff and pushing your limits. So these guys were like, let's just go for a fun hike for a day.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
They didn't even like, yeah, know his his existence. Yeah. He just walked right by.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah, and this is just a 50 to 55 mile version. Like you said, officially, the current Barkley Marathon is 100 mile. And in reality, it's also like 120 to 130 miles based on reports from people who've actually run it, right?
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
So the first version, like you said, is three loops. And it wasn't until two years after the first one that somebody completed it. And I mean, we're talking like dozens of people attempting this. And it took three times before one person completed. And there was something about this that I don't know if we've mentioned yet. Just this first version, there was an elevation gain of 24,000 feet.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
So all of the times you went up and down, if you count all the ups, It would equal 24,000 feet in elevation that you've climbed over these three loops. And that is a lot. And in fact, the guy who finished, Frozen Ed Furtaw, he was just Ed Furtaw until he won. And from then on, he was Frozen Ed Furtaw.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
He thought that there was a misprint in Ultra Running Magazine that the elevation was actually 2,400 feet, not 24,000. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah. So, yeah, the total elevation is 120,000 because, yeah, if you go up 60,000 feet and you're coming back down, you got to come down 60,000 feet. Yes, it's harder to climb up, but it's not that easy to go down too, especially if you're on an incline. And that's a big part of it too is sliding into things like briars and saplings. Yeah. It's rough.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Like just watching like the effects on some of the runners' bodies and like what they were coming back to camp looking like was –
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Some guy had, like, a head wound, and they show him, like, slipping on rocks and hitting his forehead. It was really nuts what these people are doing to themselves.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah, it really is. One of the other things that really kind of gets us across, too, is in what you said. So you've got 60 hours to finish. And from the start, the clock's always ticking, right?
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
But you're going 130 miles. So if you do the math, Olivia helps us with this. And she pointed out that you could sleep for two eight-hour nights. and still finish this course at a 20-minute mile pace, which you can basically do on your hands and knees, and still complete it within the 60-hour cutoff.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
So the fact that some people can't even finish the first loop goes to show you how difficult this is. That if it were flat, it would be beyond easy. But those same limits, the time limit and the length,
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah, there's a really great documentary from 2017 called The Barkley Marathon, colon, The Race That Eats Its Young, which is a nickname for that race. And there's a few people in there who are seasoned trail runners, ultrathoners, like
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
put on this this particular terrain or in this topography is just it changes absolutely everything oh yeah um i this 12 hour time limit per loop must have come in after the documentary right yeah that confused me too because they they were finishing in like 13 hours and something like that i didn't get that so yeah i think it must have been a new one
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Right. Yeah. And in the documentary, Cantrell points out like these, by this time, these people who had like formed serious bonds by running together on these loops are now direct competitors. Like now it's a race because they're in the fifth loop and whoever's going to finish and what time they finish at is going to determine the actual winner.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Like now there's a possible winner and everything changes. So I don't... They probably don't like class pans and then, you know, they're pulled apart, you know, sadly, when they have to go in different directions at that point.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
people who who know their stuff and have done crazy things as far as running goes who are like this is far and away the hardest race on the planet like there's nobody who's doing anything like this and if you think you know what you're doing you're going to be completely amazed at how far off you were in what you thought this is going to be like it's that hard yeah you got a chance to watch it
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah. Um, that's, that's what I took it as too. And one thing that I didn't get, I got from context, I didn't see it anywhere because I guess it's so obvious. No one thought it needed to be spelled out except me, but, um, it's the same loop, right?
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Okay, so they're doing the same loop five times, which is why they do it clockwise and counterclockwise and different ones at day and night. So that you can't just be like, yep, I remember this. This is nothing. Now I remember exactly what the trail is. You're super disoriented the first time, but it's not like you have it down pat after that first loop necessarily. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Um, I say we take a break and talk about how you would get into this race and then what it's actually like running it. Yeah, let's do it. Okay.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
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The Barkley Marathons
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The Barkley Marathons
Yeah, it was good. And there was a guy who was a special operations, like, I guess, a former special ops soldier. Yeah, it was like, I've done crazy stuff with my body. And this like that did nothing to prepare me for this.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Well, it's officially too cold to do anything, Chuck. But the upside is that you can cocoon yourself in Bombas socks, slippers and underwear all winter long.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah, and Bama's knows that the little things really do make a big difference. So they removed all the itchy tags, fixed the annoying toe seam, and perfected the fit of everything. No more socks that slip down or underwear that rides up. Just perfect comfort.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah. And at some point you might as well be like, well, at least I guess I'm going to have to finish the first loop. I might as well keep going that direction.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Right. Yeah. So going even back before the start of the race, you said that the Barkley Marathon has no website. And that is intentional. The whole thing is meant to be kept largely a secret. There's not a website. There's not like some information on this is how you apply. You have to use... basically your investigative skills just to figure out Gary Cantrell's email to email to ask to apply.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
And they make it really, really hard to apply for this because in part they're just weeding out people who don't have even the beginning of the motivation and dedication to complete this race. Like if you can't even go to this trouble to like really do your research to figure out how to apply, then don't even bother trying to apply.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Exactly. And if you do want to apply, you have to cough up a dollar sixty.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
No, he didn't. And he was like, this is six hours, man. Like, he didn't make it very far at all.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
And this guy was way more qualified to do it than, like, the average person. Like, it wasn't like he was just some, like, he went and plopped the guy out of McDonald's, like, mid-bite of a Big Mac and threw him on the trail. No, no. This guy was in pretty decent shape, and he thought that he had a chance. It's not like he's like, yeah, I'm going to go be the sacrificial human. Right, right.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
He thought like he was going to try to complete it. I don't even think he made it halfway through the first loop, did he?
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah. Yeah. Imagine if he'd started like yelling. You just brought me out here to make fun of me.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah, that's the whole jam. The way that it's treated is like you're not going to finish. You're a dummy for even trying. There's this weird kind of push-pull going on that Gary Cantrell established basically out of the gate that's based on his kind of impish sense of humor. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
And so that means that like you're just as likely to be abused or mocked when you like quit as you are to be told like, hey, you completed one loop. That's pretty good just in and of itself. It just I guess depends on what his mood is right then. And a lot of people like don't really like this guy that much. Like if you don't if you're not tuned into his sense of humor.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
you're probably not going to like him. You might find him obnoxious or, you know, might find him just mean. But if you are tuned into it, I think he's pretty funny. Like reading about him on paper and reading interviews with him, I was like, I don't really like this guy. And then I saw him in the documentary. I'm like, oh, okay. He's just hard to translate into a description.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
When you see him talk yourself, you're like, yeah, he's fine.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah, and the camel cigarettes play a big role because the start of the race is marked officially by him lighting a cigarette. So everybody's standing there at this gate that's the official starting line for the race and just standing there waiting for him to light the cigarette. And he finally does. And it's like a random time. I think it was like 8, 11 a.m. when the whole thing started.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Oh, okay. So the whole thing about Barkley Marathons is that you can trace them back. I mean, you could start at the very beginning. We talked about in our, what was the one crazy marathon episode we did not too long ago?
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah, I mean, there's bragging rights for sure. Like if you told any ultra marathon runner, you know, trail runner, that you completed the Barkley Marathon, like they would drop to their knees and start kissing your rings. Yeah. Like it's a big deal to have finished this thing.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
And yet there's also like from Gary Cantrell's perspective, from everything that I've read, the way that he describes it is like he's giving people an opportunity to push themselves to their maximum possible limits. Because remember, this race is intended to be just inside the possible human capacity. The possibility of the human body, right?
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
So if you can complete it, like you're doing all sorts of things that you never thought you were capable of doing. Like your mental endurance is among the greatest of people walking around. And so, yeah, it's way more than just bragging rights. Like if you're into bragging rights, you're probably not even going to finish the first loop. Like if that's why you're doing it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
and you somehow got accepted, it's not going to translate. So these people don't care about bragging rights, even though they would have bragging rights for life.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
No, it was on a specific marathon in, I think, Los Angeles.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah, it's pretty cool. Yeah, because as people get pared down, the people around them are like, they want to see somebody succeed then.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Something like that. Either way, you're stripped down to like the bare essentials.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
And you have a map, but you don't have a copy of their map. They give you the master map to use to trace the route onto your own map. And if you trace it incorrectly, well, that's TS for you. And people do get lost, like, a lot. There was one guy who – Oh, man. I don't remember what year it was. Oh, in 2006. Yeah. Yeah. This guy wandered off the course and spent 32 hours trying to get back.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
And in the end, he only did like two miles of the actual course. He wandered so far off course. So the way he put it, he did 16-hour miles in this race.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
No, remember the guy who was running the human zoos at the World's Fair came up with a, like a, he called it the Special Olympics Marathon. This was months ago, man. Hey, you can't remember it either, buddy. All right. Well, I can't remember.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah. And I'm guessing that they are the books in the same place every time? That I'm not sure about. But I do know that they hide them. They're not just always out in plain sight. Like one of the things you're having to stay oriented, you're having to push your body and endure. And then you're also at the same time having to make sure you don't trot past one of the books.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
And also, if you're like, well, how do you get the same page 11 times? You get a different bib number for each loop. So you would be tearing out a different page each time.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
I read about one runner, too, who I think this I don't remember what year was, maybe 2016 or 17. He made it. He showed up six seconds after time. Oh, my God. And but he had all his pages and they said like he was just collapsed on the ground. And he said, I have all my pages, but he didn't make it by six seconds.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
You'd have to be one hell of a perfectionist to be like, well, I failed.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yes. Anyway. Oh, get this. Apparently we did an entire short stuff on Saturn's rings and didn't mention it because I have no recollection of doing a short stuff on Saturn's rings. Do you?
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
He said that he thinks the reason why is because it's just one final punishment for you from Gary Cantrell to basically be humiliated with taps. Then on the other side, some runners, when they finish, especially when they actually complete the race, he has one of those Staples easy buttons that they press. And when you press it, a voice goes, that was easy.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah. The guy who was on the documentary was I think his name was John Kelly. He finished second of two, I think, that year or maybe three. And he they show him and he's just totally out of it. Like he's sitting on a chair with people surrounded surrounding him talking.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
He's just in another world, like totally out of his skull because he hadn't slept at all like that whole time.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
That was a – well, yeah, so I think officially 20 out of 1,000-plus people have finished. So I'm sure we have some sixth graders who can calculate that for us and send it in.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah. So she finished with two minutes left, right? That's incredible. Yeah, it really is. And one of the reasons it's incredible is because Gary Cantrell, this is another reason a lot of people don't like him. For years and years and years, he would say publicly there's no woman out there who could possibly finish this race.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
You do remember we did a Saturn episode that came out like a few days back.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
And, you know, he was criticized for saying that kind of thing because there's plenty of amazing women marathoners and ultrathoners and trail runners. And he defended it by basically saying, if a woman could defeat this, it would be exactly the kind of woman who would need to hear somebody say something like a woman would never be able to complete this.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Right. So finally, yes, I think Jasmine Paris. She's a Brit who teaches at the University of Scotland. Did you say that part?
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
It might not be L.A., but it was like just – you remember like that one Italian guy? I think he was running in like – Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. He'd stop and eat people's fruit and stuff and chat with everybody. And there were the two guys from Africa who were like – I remember that now. Yeah. It was – I can't remember where it was or what the name was.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
No, although you do kind of have to be a dum-dum to do it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah. I say we finish on the story of John Fega Varese. All right. Let's hear it. He was a runner in, oh, I don't know what year he ran, but he was an experienced ultramarathon runner. He participated in the Badwater Ultramarathon, which runs through Death Valley, 135 miles. Yeah. And he was like, this is, that's nothing. I'm paraphrasing.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
I'm sure he wouldn't say this, but he was basically like, you can't even really compare the two. And he completed it. And he was so incoherent from sleep deprivation that he apparently didn't remember like downing a pint of Ben and Jerry's ice cream like at the finish line. He had no idea that he'd done that. And he spent the next day and a half just laying around the campground recovering and
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
So after that time, he's like, all right, I guess I'll drive home. And he started falling asleep on the way home. So he had to stop and check himself into a hotel where he slept for another 16 hours. Oh, man.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah. And I say we quietly close the door and leave John to his slumber and go on to listener mail.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Wow, Chuck, I feel more lake-informed than I ever have been in my entire life.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
The sad thing is the whole reason I brought that up Chuck was to say that we went over a lot of the origins of marathons in that episode so we don't need to do that in this episode. Can you believe that we just did all that?
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yes. And I can vouch for Chuck Mark. We just edited out many minutes of him searching for that email. So he really did give it a try.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Right. If you want to be like Mark and his unnamed sons, you can write to us as well. Send us an email to stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
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Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
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Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah. Barkley, he's a farmer. He's like he's never run anything like that. And he said, I have no idea why he named it after me.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
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Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah. He also apparently really liked the idea that if he continued to work at something, he would continue to improve. And that's a big part of running. That's a big part of running. It's a big part of hiking. It's a big part of doing everything worthwhile. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, he got the bug pretty early on. He started running marathons. I think in 1966 he started running.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
By high school he was running marathons. And then he started running ultramarathons. And he was there like right at the beginning of the ultramarathon craze, which I think kicked off in 1974 with California's Western States 100. A guy named Gordy Ainsley set that up. And so by this time, you know, the ultramarathons were starting to catch on.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
And Gary Cantrell was enough of a runner that he knew of these things. But he was also married. He was starting to have kids. He had a job as an accountant. And he just couldn't travel the country to go participate in ultrathons. So he started setting his own up around Tennessee.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
That's so bad. That's just such a bad idea. Well, he called it the idiot's run for a really good reason. Yeah. And that's the whole his whole jam is like he loves coming up with a kind of race that just is at the border between the possibility and the impossibility of human endurance of what the human body can actually do.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Like he wants it just inside of that limit so that you could, if you push yourself enough, complete this race. But most people are just not going to be able to because it's so close to impossible.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Yeah, because I think the astonishment at how difficult it is probably takes up a lot of your mental energy and focus while you're doing it for the first time. And that, yeah, once you've even tried it before and even dropped out, you probably are past that. And it's got to be a huge leg up. Totally. So we should talk a little bit about the whole basis of all this, right?
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is Stuff You Should Know. And we are giving up right out of the gate on our episode about the Barclay Marathon.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Okay. Well, the whole thing is held at Frozen Head State Park. That says it all, huh? Yeah. It's named after the tallest peak in this state park. It's in northeastern Tennessee, which is kind of, I guess, where northeastern Tennessee is where Virginia and North Carolina come together with Tennessee. It's a beautiful area. This would be in the Cumberland Mountains.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
And this particular state park is not like the kind you just, you know, go to, everybody goes to on the weekends for a picnic. It's pretty remote. It's 330 acres. But this 330-acre state park is surrounded by 24,000 acres of forest land. And the whole thing, I guess, started with convict leasing. So this area is, like, really dark.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
No, and this area is inhospitable because of its terrain and in part because of the weather and the elevation. Yeah, yeah. But the whole reason there's a prison there is because back in the 19th century, Tennessee started making money by leasing its prisoners, convicts, to mining companies, coal mining companies.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Just make a little extra on the side from forcing your prisoners to engage in hard labor, right? Well, I think in our... Man, I need to keep a list of all of our episodes like handy because I can't remember the name of it. But do you remember that one war, the strike war in the 19th century? And I think coal mines in... Matawan. Matawan. Yes. Thank you. In that episode, we talked a lot about...
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
What happened also in Tennessee's coal mines where the labor was taking on management and it was resulting in wars. Well, one of the things that resulted out of this in Tennessee was that the laborers, the free laborers who worked for the coal mining companies would frequently help the convicts whose labor was being leased out by the state escape.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
And so Tennessee was like, well, fine, we're not doing that anymore. But undeterred, they just started setting up their own coal mines and using the prisoners directly instead of leasing them out.
Stuff You Should Know
The Barkley Marathons
Hey, everybody. It's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Well, we haven't said it yet, but OK. John Johnson bore a really striking resemblance to Larry Bader also.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah, Betty Johnson's impression was not isolated. Apparently, people who met Fritz Johnson felt essentially the same way that she did. Like, he was a cool dude that you wanted to be around. Debonair, you could say. But he also was a bit of a character.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
And by a bit, let me just say that he bought a hearse and rearranged the back so that it was like a little lounge area for him when he picked up women on dates. And I saw one place... But it was a legitimate source, like a contemporary newspaper article that said that he had somehow gotten it licensed with the city as a hunting vehicle. Can you imagine anything more 1957 than that? 1957 Bachelor?
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yes. He went to great lengths to escape Ohio.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
That is not what he was going for. You think? I mean, I don't know. Yes, you don't put a lounge area in the back of your hearse for dead deer.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
But either way. We'll take it up with UPI, buddy.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah, I want to just backtrack a little bit and specifically say there is nobody in any interview or any article that I read about this who seemed to think that Fritz Johnson was a creep or like a jerk or like a sicko or anything like that. I know we've kind of painted him. a little questionably, but there doesn't seem to be anybody who had any kind of weird vibes from him at all.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
He was just a fun guy to be around and just living up the bachelor life. Apparently he was saying like, I spent, you know, my youth in an orphanage, having to listen to the people who ran the place, tell me what to do. I spent 14 years in the Navy listening to them, tell me what to do. And now I'm finally free and I'm living it up. So yeah,
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Um, that's essentially, I think the best care, the best way to paint his character is that he was living it up his newfound freedom.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Isn't that weird that they would cash that?
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Thanks a lot, dude. Every time he made that deposit, he'd think to himself, are you going to withhold the milk delivery sign?
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
So one of the other things that he was known for is being a little unkind to friends who were engaged or married or about to get married. He was like, marriage is just another way to trap a fella. Yeah. Whoever gets married is a sap. Probably said something along those lines.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
And then a few years after he appeared in Omaha in 1961, he got married. Yeah. He got married to a model named Nancy Zimmer, who was 21 at the time. And she had a daughter from her first marriage. She said later that they were just too young. And not only did Fritz Johnson adopt her daughter, they also had their own son. So he had a family all of a sudden within just a couple of years.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
He's like, well, maybe consider making the arrow straight.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
You're like, I'm just as surprised as any of you.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
How far away, though? Are we talking like five feet?
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah. You just have to say that out loud with every shot.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Speaking of blind luck, one of the other things that kind of made Fritz Johnson a noted character around town is that he ended up donning an eyepatch. And he was one of those eye patch wearers who really needed one because they found a tumor behind his eye, I think his left eye. And to remove the tumor, they had to permanently remove his left eye.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
So he wore an eye patch rather jauntily from what I can tell. And that just made his legend even more. So like one of the local beloved TV announcers now wears an eye patch with his little pencil thin mustache. And everybody just loves this guy so much.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah. I mean, I've never met one, but yes, I'm sure those people are out there. I mean, they're the same people who wear glasses. That's how they start. It's the gateway drug is like wearing glasses that don't actually work.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Well, you're just an eye patch wearer waiting to happen.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah, for sure. For sure. But yeah, also not as a pirate. You can't be dressed as a pirate. No, no, no. Just be like normal street clothes.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah. I think there's no other place to take our second break on this.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
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Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
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Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
No, I mean, I can get that. If you cook a chicken enough, like it can be.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah, essentially. The thing is this, that's not a party trick that you do quickly. People have to stand around you for possibly dozens of minutes while you do this trick. Everybody watch this. Right. Stop what you're doing and come over and quietly watch me. Like it takes a real showman to hold people's interest while you're eating a whole chicken.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Oh, I want to see that. Why have you never done that for me?
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
No. So he joined the Navy in 1944. I think he left high school to join the Navy because the United States was in the grip of World War II. And he served for, I think, a little under two years. And when he came back, he graduated from high school and he went to the University of Akron. But school was just not for him. And he dropped out after a semester.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
My only party trick was holding my breath until I fainted.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah, we used to do that where you'd hold your breath, like you bend over and hyperventilate yourself, and you'd take that last breath, cross your hands over your chest, and your friend would just push as hard as they could on your chest, and you'd just faint.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah, I shouldn't have that tone of voice right now.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
It was very strange. I remember feeling like I was dropping in on a half pipe on a skateboard as I went down. Oh, cool. I was kind of like, this is all right. We didn't do it for very long.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
I'm sure Jerry will with her responsibleness.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Pretty much. Yeah, her quote was, pardon me, but aren't you my Uncle Larry Bader who disappeared seven years ago? Yeah. And he was like, ho, ho, ho, no, I'm not. Go away. Actually, supposedly he was super polite.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
But was quite insistent that they had the wrong person.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
But the resemblance was enough that then Susanna turned around and called her uncles, Larry's brothers. And they, I think, got on the phone with this guy and his voice enough convinced them that they should fly out to Chicago. They flew out to Chicago. Suddenly this guy's like, man, I wish I didn't have to work this convention. All these people are surrounding me and telling me I'm another person.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
And so to kind of settle the whole thing, he's like, how about this? Well, let's go get my fingerprints taken. And they were like, that's a capital idea because our brother was in the Navy, too. So his records, his fingerprints will be on record. So they went to the local police department. They took his fingerprints. They handed them over to the FBI.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
The FBI compared them to the Navy fingerprints on record of Larry Bader. And the FBI looked up and said, this is a perfect match.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah. Like if he knew he was hiding from his family and he was found at this sporting goods convention, he would have shot like a smoke bomb tipped arrow at the floor and then it vanished as the smoke just choked everyone out.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Apparently, he was known for money-making schemes more than he was known for acing tests.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
But he didn't do that. And that is a really significant thing. Like he so not only remember if he was Larry Bader who had assumed a new identity to agree to fingerprints is a dumb move to begin with. But he could have been calling a bluff or something like that. Who knows?
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
No, plus also one other thing, Chuck, if you're on the run with a new identity, usually the last thing you do is become a local TV personality in a large-ish city in the United States.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
So it doesn't make sense. Well put. I think that was much more succinct than my whole jam.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah, and initially she said that she wished he'd never turned up again, that they had gotten used to life without him. They'd accepted that he died. And, yeah, she moved on. And now all of a sudden her life, to say it was complicated is a real understatement. Like a handful of people's lives were ruined when that guy, the acquaintance of Bader, saw Fritz Johnson at that sporting goods convention.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
like ruined. Not only do you have like Mary Lou Fritz slash Larry, Larry's wife, Nancy, their kids. Um, you also have like the, the nameless fiance that was engaged to Mary Lou, like people's lives were completely upended by the news of this. And apparently the The whole time, Fritz Johnson is like, this makes zero sense to me. But the FBI said that my fingerprints match this other guy.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah. Or you wear a suit that's got dollar signs printed all over it. It's a green suit with dollar signs. That's another way to become known for money-making schemes.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
And everybody else from Akron is telling me that I'm this other guy. I think I'm Fritz Johnson. But he resigned himself to be like... Maybe this is right. Maybe they're right. He didn't deny it the whole time, and he did not seem fishy at any point. He was also more than willing to talk to the press as this was going on, but he was not an attention hound.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah, for sure. So a few months later, it's funny. She waited a few months. Mary Lou took her four kids and they went to meet him in Chicago, I guess, like a neutral city. And they spent the weekend together. And she told the press later that she was like, he's a great guy. Good with the kids. But we're strangers to him. So it was a bit of an awkward weekend, essentially. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
The thing is, is she didn't really have a choice now. Like she was a Catholic, like you said, she didn't believe in divorce. And now her husband was all of a sudden back. So she has to figure out how to work him back into her life and their kids' lives as minimally disruptive as possible. And she's just completely just lost.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
By this time, Nancy also, she was saying, you know, I'm going to stand by my husband Fritz. At some point, she even said, I'm willing to go back to work to help pay Mary Lou child support if he's going to stay with me. But it just did not. It didn't work out as well. So Nancy took her kids and kind of went back into the background to leave Fritz to deal with this whole Akron thing.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Right. So, again, he's not he's not denying this. He's saying, I don't get this. This doesn't make sense to me. But he's not like he stopped denying it after the fingerprint thing, but not like, oh, you caught me kind of thing. He seemed genuinely baffled by this.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
There's a really good kind of like one of the authoritative articles on this whole thing that was written by the Akron Beakron Journal in September of 1965. Beacon? Beacon. What'd I say?
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
The Akron Beacon Journal. I say it like a local. Yeah, sure. And it's funny because the journalist who wrote this clearly had just read Hell's Angels by Hunter Thompson. Oh, really? He was trying his hand at it. Oh, no. So, like, the whole thing starts in this jet flight that he's on on his way to Omaha. Yeah. It ends on the jet flight too.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
And like he's talking about them walking through the town to the YMCA. It's just like he wrote himself into this article. It was just kind of funny to see.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Right. But there was a quote in there that stood out to me that Fritz Johnson told this guy. He said, I've begun to think that God might solve the problem. And it turns out he was right because a year later he died from cancer.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Right. You don't want to tempt God to kill you.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
No, I said cancer. It moved to his liver, I think.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
I agree wholeheartedly. There's just one other thing I want to say about his two funerals. In Omaha, the funeral was given for Fritz Johnson. In Akron, the funeral was given for Larry Bader. But it was the same body. They moved from one city to the other.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Right. Yeah, fugue state, I mean, it's basically like they are describing what happened to them. But essentially what happens is you have this amnesia, but it wipes out your episodic memory, your biographical memory. And to the point where you accidentally, inadvertently move away from home, depending on how long it lasts, you're going to travel fairly far away from home.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
When you get to where you're going, you're going to set up a new life, the new identity, make new relationships, and you're not going to have any memory whatsoever of the life that came before this. That's a fugue state. And apparently it is actually real. I looked all over for like fake. This is made up. This is not correct. Like this is a crackpot theory that some psychologist came up with. No.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Dissociative fugue is a widely accepted, very, very rare medical condition that they do not know how to explain. There's a struggle between neurology and psychology or psychiatry. Like, is it brain-based or is it like a break from some traumatic experience? And apparently it usually is prompted by some negative experience, but it's not something like seeing your family killed.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
It can be something like being $2,400 in 1957 dollars in debt.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
So I guess kind of what you're saying is he died in a fugue state, like he never emerged from the fugue state, huh?
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
OK, I think that's a pretty good theory, actually. I mean, it does seem like he was not malingering. He was not faking. This is not a con. It's a just genuine mystery because also like he just checks so many boxes for a fugue state. But it's just it usually goes on for what, weeks or months, right? Not years.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
That's what I saw. Oh, really? Yeah. But in that time, you're so convinced of your new identity that you can form relationships that now all of a sudden are jeopardized around the rocks because you don't remember these people anymore. And you're like, what am I doing in Omaha?
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah, hopefully we figure out more about fugue states because then we'll understand a little more about Larry Bader. And if if we don't, then we're never going to know what happened. Like, it's just a mystery.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
A 10 hour long movie. Yeah. With with tons and tons of archery montages.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Uh, so you got anything else about Larry Bader?
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah. Thanks a lot. How'd you hear about this? I meant to ask you that.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Well, Chuck seems like he's having an autobiographical crisis right now, and that, of course, unlocks Listener Mail.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah, I was going to say the same thing. A show in Nana's living room.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Especially if it's in Omaha. I've always wanted to see beautiful Omaha.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Well, thanks a lot, Nana. Thank you very much for not only listening to us all this time, but also for turning Nori on to us. That's pretty great stuff. And if you want to be like Nori and tell us about your awesome grandparent, we want to hear about them. You can wrap it up, spank it on the bottom and send it off via email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah. He also like he didn't pay his taxes for like five years, I think.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
No. And it was bad enough. He was bad enough with the bills or behind enough that the milkman apparently said, like, I'm not bringing milk anymore until you pay your milk bill. Yeah. Um, so the thing is, is this guy, like you said, family friend from when he was a kid was like, he was a rich kid, but he was actually really charming, fun to be around rich kid.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
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Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
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Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Hey, everybody. It's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
And apparently as he grew up into an adult, he remained essentially the same. Like basically everyone who met him or had something to say about him later on became basically unanimously said this guy was a good guy. So if he's like cracking under the pressure of these bills and this debt, it's not showing outwardly to anybody who knew him.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
One of his friends said that he was a red blooded American 30 year old family man who liked hanging out and drinking beer. uh, with friends and his friends liked hanging around him because he was just fun to be around essentially without being like a reckless party animal. He was just fun to be around.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
So one of the things he did was he paid some bills before he left. And one of those bills was a life insurance premium. He had recently adjusted or changed the policy to include a nice payout for an accidental death. And he whistled as he drove off to Cleveland and eventually went to Rocky River, Ohio, which is a little town on the Rocky River, which flows into Lake Erie.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
And he rented a boat at Eddie's boat dock about a half a mile inland from the lake from a guy named Lawrence Cutler. Yeah, Cutler. Cutler. Yeah. Anyway, he paid 15 bucks from a big roll of bills. It's also kind of important. And he said, hey, Lawrence, I want you to put some running lights on this boat because I'm probably going to be out after dark. And Lawrence said, OK, I'll do that.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
But it's going to cost you an extra fiver, I'm presuming here at this time. And Larry Bader paid it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
And like a Stephen King novel about Cleveland, maybe.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah, and when it's time to collect that money, Squarespace offers an easier way to collect payments so you can focus on growing your business. You can invoice clients and get paid for your services, turn leads into clients with proposals, estimates, and contracts, and simplify your workflow and manage your service business on one platform. What else could you possibly ask for?
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
No. And the life jacket was in the boat, you said, right? That's right. So that's a really, that's a, so that's a big point because the Coast Guard was like, that was one heck of a storm on Lake Erie. There's no, no way that anybody could have survived this. Even a strong swimmer like Larry Bader was known to be without a life jacket.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Right, but the boat was generally in pretty good shape. The thing is, is like this is not an uncommon thing. Like people drown in Lake Erie pretty frequently. It's a great lake. It's a very big lake. And just as a little side anecdote, when I was a kid, we used to vacation on Catawba Island on Lake Erie. And every week we would go there for a week, every summer.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
And every time we went, I would have to wait on the beach the first half of the week because somebody had drowned. And I was convinced that if I went in the water, they would, their dead body would bump up against me. And I just couldn't even bear the thought of that. So finally I would watch the news every night.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
And finally, when they announced they found the missing person, then I would start to go into the lake.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah, because no one had any business swimming in Lake Erie back when I was a kid.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Oh, you play mini golf and putt putt. Um, we stayed at this place. It was just like a block of, um, like I guess little condos or apartments or something like that. And everybody had beach towels, like drying over like the railing. And it was like on the beach, like the sand came up into your little front stoop. And, uh, it was just great. It was wonderful.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
I remember my oldest sister went on a date with a dude. She met there and they went and saw top secret at the drive-in.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Banking with Capital One helps you keep more money in your wallet with no fees or minimums on checking accounts and no overdraft fees. Just ask the Capital One bank guy. It's pretty much all he talks about, in a good way. He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too. Thanks, Capital One bank guy. What's in your wallet? Terms apply. See CapitalOne.com slash bank.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Hey, everybody. It's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Yeah, and when it's time to collect that money, Squarespace offers an easier way to collect payments so you can focus on growing your business. You can invoice clients and get paid for your services, turn leads into clients with proposals, estimates, and contracts, and simplify your workflow and manage your service business on one platform. What else could you possibly ask for?
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Okay, Chuck, where we last left off, Larry Bader's missing. He's disappeared, but enough years have gone by, I think roughly three, that he's officially declared dead. His insurance policy has come in. His wife has said, this is what you get for telling me maybe I will, maybe I won't when I tell you not to go fishing. Right.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
And if we rewind just a little bit to the day that Larry Bader went out on the lake and add, usually people say about three days, and zoom on over from Lake Erie over to Omaha, Nebraska, and we sit down at a little bar called the Round Table Bar in Omaha, what we will see on May 18, 1957 is a guy walk in, and his name is John Johnson. Take it, John.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck, and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff You Should Know.
Stuff You Should Know
The Mysterious Story of Larry Bader
So that's not a joke. That's making fun of my hard work.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And what came out of it is both an indictment and an inspiring affirmation of humanity. And on a personal note, I would like to wish my sweet, sweet wife, Yumi, a very big happy birthday. Enjoy.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Yeah, and so these guys being inmates of the state at a time where Ypsilanti had like 4,000 people, 4,000 patients in just this one institution. And if you were already like on the margins of society and then moved into a place where you're with 4,000 other people on the margins of society, it's a really good place to get lost, to not get any real help. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And so one of the things that was part of this experiment design is to make participating in these discussions, this group of these three Christs as attractive to these three men as possible. So they were moved to Ward D-23. They were given their own private day room to eat in, to sleep in—or not sleep in, but to hang out in, away from everybody else.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
They got some, like, place to stretch out and to have some company. They got a lot of attention. A lot of perks. Like, basically, their lives were changed in— like incalculable ways by being part of the study. And so when they say like these were voluntary meetings and these men were voluntary members of the study, that's definitely true. They were voluntary participants.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Dave is here with us today and we're all just quietly holding hands. Now we have to stop and come into the real world and start talking to you fine people for this episode of Stuff You Should Know. My lip got caught in my tooth when I said you and it came out a little weird.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
But the perks on offer were just so amazing. Like you could not turn down, you know, participating in some degree.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
I don't think so. Okay. I don't want to disparage those great actors' names again.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
So let me ask you this because I didn't see the movie. Was it like – and I loved the fact that they made a movie about Freddie Mercury and the other members of Queen. But was it like in the movie – what was the name of that movie?
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Bohemian Rhapsody. Bohemian Rhapsody, that's right. Do you remember like every time like Freddie Mercury did something brilliant, they would have Brian May, they'd do a pan in close up of him just looking like in awe and astonished. And that's maybe pushing it doing that once in a movie, but they did that every like 15 or 20 minutes. Was it kind of like that same sentiment?
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
I got you, yeah. So not the real story. It sounds familiar or similar.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Right, exactly. This is not a feel-good story. I wonder if it was performance art you accidentally stumbled upon.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
I got it. All right, all right. I liked Awakenings too, but it sounds like what you're describing is more along the lines of Greatest Showman, like that kind of sanitization. I didn't see that. Okay. Did you? No, but remember we did that episode just tearing it apart. Yeah, yeah. We hadn't even seen it yet.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
I think his name actually was Josephine as well, and he went by Joseph. So he wanted to be a writer. I think, did you say he was 58 at the time? Yeah. OK. And he did not really take to working outside of the house. He and his wife did not have a very good relationship necessarily. He didn't want kids. She did. They ended up having three daughters.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And he later on came to believe that they were not his children after all. And that may have been correct. But then things started to take kind of a turn for the worse in that he started to become really paranoid. He started to accuse people of poisoning his food. He became a bit of a hoarder, especially with books.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And probably the greatest crime a man could commit in mid-century America, he did not want to work.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
So that was basically that. He ended up getting sent to an asylum in Canada. and then on to Ypsilanti eventually. And he'd been in Ypsilanti for, I think, about 20 years, or at least in and out of the hospital system for about 20 years. And for about 10 of those years, he had decided that he was God or Jesus Christ or both.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Splendid. Yeah, so Joseph, despite his inability to take care of himself and the fact that he hoarded and all of that, he was a very sharp person. So remember to keep that in mind. He was very sharp and a good writer as well. Clyde, and these men's names were changed. Clyde Benson, he was 70. He'd been hospitalized for the last 17 years. He was in pretty rough shape. He really was.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And Rokeach definitely starts to recognize that pretty quickly after meeting Clyde and ends up almost letting him just stay in the group, even though he's not really participating any longer. But Clyde was apparently raised in an overprotected manner and didn't really learn how to make his own decisions and kind of ended up stunted there.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
As a result, which you can make your way through life like that if you if you want to. But he ended up turning to alcohol and became a really hardcore alcoholic to where it was starting to wreck his life. And apparently that came into collision with a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia at some point. Right.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Yeah. And when he did, he was very direct and to the point. And I don't think he was actually physically violent, was he?
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Right. So he would say things like, I am him. See, now understand that. Like that was the extent of how he would explain that he was God. He didn't need it to be challenged. And if you did try to challenge it, he would just shut you down kind of thing in a very... Yeah, like you said, kind of a scary way.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Nice. That'll be a special treat for everybody, especially me.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Which is sad because that means that Rokic made things much, much worse for these people.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And that's something to really understand, that there were three men who were living, you know, their delusional lives in this state mental hospital, but they were generally unmolested until they were dragged into this study and messed with, like, in ways that you just don't do to other people, you know, and that their lives probably were worse, far worse than they would have been had they never met Milton Rokic.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
I really was. The worst was when you had that little case that you would put it in and it had vents so the smell could waft out of it.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
For sure. Yeah. And he had, like, there was a time where he was living a normal life. He served in World War II. He worked at different jobs back in Detroit. He tried to go to college. He was trying to make a life for himself. But he suffered from fatigue, which I looked up as apparently a really tough comorbidity with psychotic disorders. Mm-hmm.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And it's like got a terrible positive feedback where, you know, the more tired you get, the worse your disorder is. And the worse your disorder is, the harder it can be to sleep. And it's just not good. So he had that. And then he also started hearing voices himself. that were telling him that he was Jesus Christ.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And that didn't really jibe very well with his mother's own religious fanaticism because he saw that she was, you know, worshiping these other, what he considered idols.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And he went on a... a bit of a violent tear once, removing all of the pictures of the saints and breaking all of the figurines and all that stuff and demanding that his mother worship him as Jesus Christ and threatening that if she didn't, he would strangle her. And so that was enough to get him locked up for good. He'd already been locked up one time for a brief period.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And then about six months after that, he was locked up from then until the time that he met Milton Rokeach.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Man. Sorry. So he went by, not Leon, and again, Leon was a fake name that Rokic gave him for the book. But he went by Dr. Domino Dominorum et Rex Reserum Simplis Christianis Puris Mentalis Doctor, which is Latin for Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Simple Christian Boy Psychiatrist. But he asked everyone to call him Rex for short.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Sure. And he was, he was, like you said, like the most, probably the most personable. He, like Joseph, he was very sharp too, but also like from a very, a very early stage, he saw quite clearly what Roe Keats was trying to do. And he thought that it was morally repugnant, that it was not a nice thing to do to somebody, that you shouldn't mess with people like that.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Yeah. No, it was great. It was very liberating.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And he said as much multiple times throughout the study. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
I think this is going to be a good one because, Chuck, I've been wanting to talk about this for a really long time. This is one of those things that you, like, hear about – And you're like, wait, what? That can't be right. And then you read a little more about it and a little more and it just keeps getting worse and worse.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
No, and it was like really, it was kind of in and of itself just that finding that not only did they not have their identity shattered, but they just rebuilt and reinforced their identities however they could find a way to do it to their own satisfaction.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
That's a pretty big psychological finding in and of itself, you know, although it doesn't seem worth putting these men through that just to find that out, you know.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Don't think I didn't notice you just slipped Peter Dinklage in there. I know. That only leaves one more, so I don't need to do the third.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
So one of the other things about Joseph was his interpretation of why they were there in this study, why the three of these men had been brought together, was so that they could sort out with the other two that they weren't Christ, that he was the one who was actually Christ, so he could do his work here on earth better without having these two basically harassing him or whatever.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
So then Leon, like I was saying, Leon was the one who kind of saw the most through Rokic's intentions and saw that they were just wrong. And like Clyde, I think Clyde said that they were a re-rise. That's what he considered the other two, or a hick.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Joseph said, you know, I am who I am. And also, by the way, we all know that I'm really God. And then Leon, he said that he said the other two were instrumental gods. They were hollowed out gods. They were possibly dead already. And machines were operating them and making them say these things. But even in that, like he wasn't attacking them personally.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
It was what he felt forced to explain his position. And so that's what he said his position was. But as he was saying this, he would turn to Joseph. He would turn to Clyde and he would say, you know, I mean this, you know, respectfully, I don't mean to be to tear you down. Whatever your belief is your belief and I don't want and I'm not trying to take it from you.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
But yet it's just kind of one of the, like a landmark study in the field of psychology that we're talking about today.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
I have my beliefs and you have your beliefs. And that's. That's good enough. And so through that kind of... like truce that was kind of established between these three men, they basically kept the researchers at bay. The researchers would try to come in and bust things up and get them to like argue or, you know, make them confront one another.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
But when left alone, those three men just generally did not argue about who was God. They avoided the subject altogether and just let the other ones be and just kind of entered this live and let live kind of position, which I think is pretty heart heartening, you know?
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Yeah, that story in particular was about how Rokic was treating three psychotic men who thought they were Christ. And to read that to them is really mean. Again, he was trying to see what would happen if they were confronted with their identities being considered delusional by other people. And Leon in particular didn't like that.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
He said that a doctor or a person who's supposed to be a doctor is supposed to lift up, build up, guide, direct, inspire. He said that what you've just done is deploring. And Rokic said, you know, deploring, I've traveled 75 miles in snow and storm to come see you. And Leon said, yes, but what was your intention in coming to see me, sir?
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And so he didn't put up with Rokic's BS at all, which was pretty cool, you know. To hold delusions and to have your delusions attacked like that and then to be able to push back, but also in still a respectful way is, I think Leon's one of these, one of the great unsung heroes of 20th century America.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Yeah, I say we take a break, man.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
You started wearing, like, Three Christs t-shirts and stuff.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Man. It's just brutal. It keeps getting better and better. Yeah. Yeah. When those grad assistants said, you've gone too far, I think Rokic probably said something along the lines of, too far? I haven't even begun to go too far. Richard Gere said that. Just watch what's next. Yeah, but there was like upbeat music while he was saying it.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Exactly. That is exactly what I was thinking of. Thank you for putting it into words, Chuck. So what happened next? So what happened next is as follows. Rokic basically saw, like, these guys are not going for this, for the level of prodding that I've been doing. I'm going to really kind of turn up the heat.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And he wondered if you took the members, people that were part of these patients' delusional belief systems and personified them, like pretended you were them, say started communicating with them through letters or whatever. Yeah. What would happen?
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Could you conceivably get these people to abandon their delusions under the guidance of these authority figures that were actually part of their delusions? It's really kind of mind boggling when you lay it out in like a flow chart like that, you know?
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Or maybe he was scared of what would happen if Clyde broke.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Archangel. Those are two different. So he was married to the Blessed Virgin Mary and had that uncle.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
But he wasn't married to his uncle. He had another wife later on named Madam Yeti Woman after he stopped being married to the Blessed Virgin Mary. That's right. Because his uncle, Michael, the archangel, married the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Well, the upshot of it is Rokic started posing as Madam Yeti Woman and started a letter writing campaign as Madam Yeti Woman, basically reaching out to say, hey, Leon, I just want to say hi and I'm thinking of you and let's start talking. So there was correspondence that was established as Leon's delusion, like wife, Madam Yeti Woman.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Yeah. And so he did. He did go ahead first with Leon, I believe. And by this time, Leon had one of the things that he had done to transform his identity was to become Dr. Righteous Ideal Dong or Dr. R.I. Dong. And apparently the head nurse asked him directly, like, can I please not call you Dr. Dong? And he said, yes, you can call me R.I. But everybody else called him Dr. R.I. Dung.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And he did this, Rokic concluded, to basically make himself not worthy of being harassed anymore. But he was still secretly God, like he knew he was God. He was just pretending to be something else. And during that period, he became married to Madam Yeti Woman. So Rokic started addressing letters to Dr. R.I. Dung and basically saying – You know, here's a dollar.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Why don't you go buy yourself something nice in the hospital store and then share the change with Clyde and Joseph? Or one of the things that they would do is they would take turns between the three patients as to who was going to lead the session that day.
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Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And one of the things you did when you led the session was you chose what song everybody sung at the beginning and at the end of the session, which is adorable. And so Madame Yeti Woman suggested that he choose onward Christian soldiers and he chose onward Christian soldiers.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Hey everybody, it's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And so like to Rokichi seeing like there's this there's like an actual influence that is being exerted by this delusional figure. And also it demonstrates that that Leon is showing like he definitely believes Madame Yeti Woman's a person for sure. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And so with Leon's letters in particular, there's a couple of like really sad things. Like the whole thing was sad to begin with, but there's this passage in the book where Leon gets a letter and Rokic realizes that he's holding back tears. And he starts to ask him, like, why are you, like, you know, are you happy? He said, yes, I'm very happy.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
It's a very pleasant feeling to have someone think of you. Like, he was moved to tears by the idea that Madame Yeti Woman was writing to him and talking about caring for him and sending him money to go buy himself things with. And rather than just say, like, oh, we might want to back this off, Rokic used it to step that up and arranged for a meeting with Madam Yeti Woman. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
But there was no Madam Yeti Woman who was supposed to show up. He was going to get stood up from the outset. But still, Leon went to go meet Madam Yeti Woman and had his heart broken. I think it was after that that he stopped responding to the letters. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Yeah, he's great, man. I went back. I told you I was watching The Shield again. That guy was amazing in that.
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Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
I don't think he was on to him from the beginning.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Oh, gotcha. I see what you're saying. But, yeah, but it's really easy to forget because you're reading Rokic's accounts that these men weren't in on the idea that it was from Rokic. They believed that these letters were coming from their delusional figures. Yeah, that was the whole point. Which makes it just even more gut-wrenching when you stop and remember that, you know? Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
So then he says, OK, all right, Leon's done. I'm done writing letters to him. Who can I write letters to next? And he moves on to Joseph, right?
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Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Yeah. Yeah, he played one of the main characters.
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Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Yeah, he said, be assured that I will always love you just exactly like a father who deeply loves his own son.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Yeah. So just like with Leon, through these letters as Dr. Yoder, he tried to get Joseph to start doing stuff, innocuous stuff at first. He stopped saying that he was from England and that he was from Quebec. Uh-huh. Started going to church services, that kind of stuff.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
So there was an influence on Joseph just like there was on Leon using their delusional characters or delusional friends, authority figures, whatever. And I think even Dr. Yoder prescribed, the fake Dr. Yoder prescribed a placebo for Joseph's stomach ailments. He had like digestive problems or stomach hurt. And these placebo pills just fixed him right up. Yeah.
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Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Yeah, he apparently stopped writing to Dr. Yoder and moved on to JFK. Started writing letters to JFK asking to be one of his speechwriters because, remember, he was a writer as well. Right. So Rokic is like, okay, all right, let's see what's next. Oh, nothing's next. This is the end of the line. He finally realized, like, okay, this is— not going anywhere.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Not only had he not at all moved Clyde's delusions or Joseph's delusions, the only persons whose delusions had changed at all was Leon's, and his had just gotten more complex and intricate, certainly not any closer to reality. They got further away from reality because of this influence from Rokeach and his experiment. And he has like a pretty rich little admission in the book.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
But they didn't, and that's okay. And we don't have to talk about that movie ever again now that we have. Instead, I think we should start by giving a little background on the guy whose idea the Three Christs of Ypsilanti experiment was. And it was a researcher, a psychologist, a social psychologist. Your favorite? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Named Milton Rokeach.
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Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
That he says that we do not know to what extent our very presence, behavior, and questions may have influenced the results obtained. Which is bizarre to say because the whole point of the experiment was to influence these people through this experiment. So it's a really weird thing that he even put it in there.
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And from some of the stuff that I've read, kind of picking apart this book at the end, it really just kind of peters out and like he's just kind of slashing in the air with his sword trying to figure out, you know, what the point was of all this stuff. And even without like a satisfying conclusion or end.
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Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
And it ended up getting published in 1964 and became, like, a really big success in the field of psychology, but also got widely criticized right out of the gate.
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Selects: The Three Christs of Ypsilanti Experiment
Because even though this was mid-century America, and we're talking about mental patients in mid-century America who have very little rights or were treated very poorly, like, there were still, like, a lot of people around who were like, you don't do this to human beings. This is not okay. Not everybody did, but some critics definitely came out immediately.
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No, he finally figured out the point of the book and the point of the book was for him to figure out that it was unethical what he was doing and finally come to terms with what he'd done to these poor men and that you have a right to just be left alone and not have your identity challenged no matter what you believe you are, who you believe you are. And so he actually changed his methods.
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His general belief in the idea of belief systems changed. remain the same, but he changed his tactics in that he got involved in self-confrontation where he would try to present people with, you know, self-examination where they would examine what their values were, what their beliefs were, and then they would kind of be challenged on that. Like, okay, you believe in freedom.
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You place a high value on freedom. Uh-huh. But you also rated equality pretty low. But isn't equality freedom for everybody? So you care about your freedom but not other people's freedom? How does that really jibe? And then the hope was that they would go back and self-reflect and be like, no, I really do care about freedom. I do care about other people.
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And Milton Rokeach had some ideas about what it was to make up an identity, what made up a person's sense of who they were. Yeah. And he basically had broken it out into beliefs, a series of different kinds of beliefs, which we'll kind of talk about here or there a little more. Yeah.
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Maybe I should care more about equality and improve as a person. And that's ultimately how he ended up making his name starting in the 70s.
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I know exactly what you mean. It's still smacks of self-involvement and egotism. And also, like, what happened to these men after the experiment was done? They were just cast right back into the general population. That's right. Like, used Kleenex, basically, to deal with what they'd just been through. It's just rotten all around, for sure.
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And at the very least, it does exist to make Milton Rokeach feel better. Right, right. You got anything else?
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Nice. And if you want to see the movie that they remade about this, don't. Nah. Well, since I said don't see that movie, it's time, of course, for listener mail, everybody.
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But there's this anecdote that's frequently passed around that kind of like lays the early groundwork for this idea that someone's belief in who they are could conceivably be challenged. And it came one night when he was sitting around the dinner table with his wife and his two young daughters.
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Just no matter what. Everybody tells you to stop. Please, God, stop. Don't quit. You don't listen.
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Way to go, Jared, from all over the place. I think Idaho.
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So let's see. If you want to get in touch with us like Jared did, please email us, won't you? You can send us an email to stuffpodcast at iheartradio.com.
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And he accidentally, in like a moment of frustration telling them to settle down at dinner, called one another by their opposite names. And the girls just thought that was like the funniest thing they'd ever heard at first.
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Yeah. I even stuck my finger up like, all right, now you. But you can't see it, can you?
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Yeah, and he learned a couple of things. One, you can very quickly challenge somebody or you can very quickly push someone to a state of like trauma or anxiety or panic even.
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Just by simply challenging their identity by calling them the wrong name purposefully.
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He also, right. Yeah, I know, Jerry.
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Do it one more time and I will crumble. Okay, Jerry. Thank you for, oh, God. But he also learned like, okay, there's consequences to this. You can't take somebody with a well-formed, well-developed sense of identity and I guess a normal sense of identity and push them to the edge, mess around with that sense of identity. There's harmful consequences to that. Yeah.
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So he started to kind of explore this. And like I was saying, like he had broken everybody's belief system into a handful of different types of beliefs.
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And the belief that you are who you are, which is what we call our identity, he ascribed to primitive beliefs, which are just like basic truths in the same neighborhood as, you know, I'm wearing a headphone on one ear and I have the other one behind my head right now. I have brown hair. My name is Josh. You're Chuck.
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Like just basic truths of the universe that anyone you talk to is going to generally agree with. Right. That's where the personality comes from.
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Right, right. So what I was saying a minute ago with like how we saw that there's consequences to messing with a sane person. I just made air quotes if you couldn't tell from my intonation. Messing with a sane person's identity. You can't really do that. But this is the mid-century in America.
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And there's a whole group of people that you can do basically whatever you want to with as far as mental stuff goes. And that were people who are suffering from mental conditions who were locked up in state institutions at the time. And so Rokic came up with this idea like, OK, wait a minute.
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What if I what if I got my hands on some mentally unstable people, some possibly diagnosed people and messed with their sense of identity, took their delusion and challenged it? That could be okay because, hey, their lives are basically useless anyway. I'm paraphrasing Roe Keech here. And if something does come of it, there's a good chance that it could be positive instead. So let me have it.
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Let me add them, basically.
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Right. Yeah. That's like the perfect motto for the misguided intentions of this study. Yeah.
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Exactly. Just right out of the gate. And I read this commentary magazine article from 1964 by, oh, I can't remember who it was. I don't have it pulled up, but he's a famous poet at the time. And he was basically saying like, you know, surely Rokeach, the guy who's writing the book, Well, it understands that Rokeach, the character, this doctor, is like out of his mind.
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And he's like slowly realizing, oh, wait, this guy, even the author of the book has no idea that the doctor character, who's himself, has any idea just how unethical this is. And that's a great example of it that demonstrates it right off the bat.
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Sure. I've heard public radio before.
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Same here. Fresh air. I always still love fresh air. But it's one of those things where I just bulk it up. And then like when I'm painting a room in our house, I listen to just fresh air the whole time or something. You know what I mean? Yeah.
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Would that do it? Yeah, I wouldn't even begin to bother her until we hit 20 years, and then maybe, yeah.
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Yeah, there was a man in the 17th century that Voltaire wrote about named Simone Morin, who was deranged in the parlance of the time. And he thought that he was Christ. And so he was locked up in a madhouse. And he met in that place, in that institution or asylum, another man who thought he was Christ. And Simone Morin saw Christ.
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just how like crazy this guy seemed and was like, wait a minute, maybe I'm crazy. And in confronting this other guy who claimed to have the same identity, he regained his sanity to a certain extent. And unfortunately, he relapsed and ended up being burned at the stake for heresy. But there was a moment there where he had kind of like been knocked out of his delusion. That's a huge deal.
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If you have schizophrenia or delusional beliefs, if your mental disorder is to the degree where you hold delusions, and we should say a delusion is not like a made-up belief where you know you made your belief up. This is what you think is real. It is real to you, and you will defend it when it's challenged.
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Hi everybody, it's your old pal Josh, and for this week's Select, I've chosen our episode from August of 2021, where we take a look at one of the most unethical social psychology experiments in the history of the field, where Dr. Martin Rokic assembled three men who each believed he was Christ, put them in a room together, and sat back and waited for the fireworks to start.
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So the idea that somebody who was delusional could be knocked out of their delusion by being confronted with somebody else who had the same delusion, that is groundbreaking. And I can see why Roe Keech was like, there we go. That's it. There's my methodology for this experiment.
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Plus a great book title. It's one of the great understated book titles of all time.
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No, and I mean like Ypsilanti is like this town outside of Ann Arbor where, you know, that's where one of the mental asylums were in Michigan at the time. And it's just like, you know, it might as well be Walla Walla or Lackawanna or it's just an unusual name in a town that doesn't really have much of a claim to anything. You know what I mean?
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No, no, it's not an insult. It's just, it's not like a hot happening town. And it'd been like the three Christ of New York that loses something or the three Christ of London. It's just a rather generally unremarkable place. Guys, Ypsilanti, if you live there and you don't know that it's Generally unremarkable. I'm sorry to be breaking this news to you. I don't mean it in an unkind way at all.
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Okay. To let everybody really stew on what I said?
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Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck. And sitting in for Jerry today is our great friend and co-producer, Dave C. And the C stands for cool. Say hello, Dave. Hi, everybody. That's a really great Dave impression. He's a troll. He is. I always hear him as... Dave is great.
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So visit apu.apus.edu slash military to learn more. American Public University, education that moves with you.
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That's right, Chuck. Andrew Moyes, VP of Fan Expo HQ, had this to say about Orlando. Often, we will bring our entire team to Orlando for the event, and that includes our executive-level team members as well, and we're able to give them a great experience with luxury hotels, special restaurants, all those key things to feed into the proper executive experience.
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He also said that Orlando's easy airport access and close proximity to hotels and transportation make it a top choice for hosting major events.
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The Bronson Pinchot National Forest.
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Right. Well put. So the whole thing starts actually even before the whole thing started. And I saw in 1975 that two volcanologists published a paper saying that it was very likely Mount St. Helens was going to erupt in the 20th century at some point, like a big one. Yeah. And five years later, on March 20th, 1980, the whole thing was kicked off by a 4.0 earthquake, which is nothing to sneeze at.
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And it was at the mountain, like this earthquake took place at the mountain. And all of a sudden, within five days, there were quake storms. There was 24 quakes of 4.0 or greater within eight hours.
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When a volcano starts doing that and you're detecting it, that's when the geologists come running from far and wide.
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You're going to have to take our word for it.
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Yeah, like, the thing is, is the people who did live on the mountain were not the kind of folk who listened to, like, you know, pencil neck college boys or the government to be told, like, leave your home. And then also there was those youth groups that were like, you're going to ruin our week at Spirit Lake. There was also Weyerhaeuser. They're hoping to get to first base. Exactly.
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It's like a roller rink over there. Yeah. And then there was Weyerhaeuser who had a contract to be able to log on the on the mountain. They definitely didn't want to have to shut down operations. So there's a lot of pressure, a surprising amount of pressure, you know, more than you would think to keep the mountain open.
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Speaking of take our word for it, Chuck, I have to say to all the people who don't know much about Mount St. Helens, prepare to have your socks knocked off.
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And David Johnston and Don Swanson and some of the other colleagues were like, you really can't do this. And they managed to convinced the governor of Washington that it was the right move. And then later on, as we'll see, there was even more pressure to reopen because things didn't go as fast as everyone thought. And they managed to push that back as well.
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And as a result, David Johnston is frequently credited for saving thousands of lives, potentially, which is pretty cool. I mean, and everything I've seen about him, he was a genuinely great person and also like a really great pioneer in volcanology, too.
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Or your skin seared off of your muscle.
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Yeah, it's kind of like being buried in, like, you know, medieval times and having your live horse buried with you.
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Yeah, no way. Not a lodge codger. So Harry Truman will come back in. This is Harry R. Truman, by the way. Everybody said his middle initial to differentiate him. He'll come back in later. But so the last thing that happened on the mountain, March 25th, in eight hours, there's 24 4.0 or greater magnitude earthquakes. And that brought everybody running.
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This whole thing was so perfectly planned that on the day of the eruption, there was the mineral and gem show in Yakima, like I think less than 100 miles away from Mount St. Helens. So anybody who had anything to do with geology just happened to be in the area or was purposefully in the area. And then on March 27th, it's just getting more and more and more. There was an actual eruption, right?
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And none of that margarine stuff or low fat. It's like full milk fat butter. Oh, man. Bread and butter stuff you should know. Salted butter even. You like salted, huh? It depends on what you're using it for. I like just plain unsalted butter, even on a bread and butter piece of like bread with butter.
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They did. There's footage of them signing waivers on the hood of a car with some obvious state lawyer in a three-piece suit handing people a pen and being like, sign here. It's really hilarious. But they did. Some people started to trickle in. And that's actually why there were, you know, I think we ended up with 57 casualties, 57 people died. Yeah.
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And that was one reason why it was actually that high. It could have been less, but people were allowed to trickle back in. They still kept like a perimeter, but I think it was kind of porous. If you wanted to get through, you could get through. And there are stories in that minute-by-minute episode of people.
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There's this one backpacker who is probably hilarious at parties because he makes like a funny voice for the police when the police is talking when he's recreating a conversation he had.
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He snuck through with friends. There are a lot of people on the mountain that otherwise might not have been had they kept it closed. But they did open it up a little bit. And it was because nothing had happened for a little while. And then about three days later, everything happened. You said S was getting real. This is when the S hit the fan.
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Yeah, and I think there have been other colleagues and grad students and everything around Coldwater, too. And Johnston sent them away. He's like, this is outside the red zone. It's still potentially dangerous. There's no reason for more than just one of us to be here at a time. So you guys go. So at 8.32 a.m. on May 18th, 1980, Mount St. Helens, like, blew up.
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And there's like a typical idea that people have of a volcano going off, and most of the time it's shooting like a huge thing of ash and magma straight into the air from its top. Yeah. But that is not what happened with Mount St. Helens. Mount St. Helens was a very specific and unusual type of eruption because it didn't go out of the top.
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It came out of the side, and it came out in what was known as a lateral blast eruption. Wow.
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Yeah, I got you. What's your brand?
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Yeah, and that created that bulge that kept growing by about six feet a day. That was what the bulge was. It is because, like, it's as violent as you can imagine that a bulge, something that could make a bulge on the side of a mountain would be. Yeah.
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And so under other circumstances, a Plinian eruption where a volcano explodes out of the top, like you typically think of, that pressure, that magma is going to basically force the top of the mountain open. And that's how it's going to explode. This is not what happened with Mount St. Helens. That kind of, I guess the hump was on one side. It was on the north flank, wasn't it? Yeah.
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So it was on the north flank. And the thing that kicked off Mount St. Helens eruption wasn't the volcano. It was actually an earthquake in the volcano. And that earthquake caused the largest landslide in recorded history on Earth. More than half of a square mile of Mount St. Helens suddenly vanished away. It just suddenly dropped off the side, the north side of the mountain.
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Yeah, and one of the reasons they were able to witness it, and we have such great documentation, is because at 8.32 a.m., a pair of geologists, husband and wife geologists, happened to be flying in a plane. Yeah. Because they'd hired a plane to go look at Mount St. Helens because they'd heard that, you know, there's some stuff going on.
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And they happened to make one more pass right as the mountain, that earthquake dropped the side of the mountain. They were, like, right above it in a plane, as a matter of fact.
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Right. You must be a social justice warrior. You buy local butter.
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Right, exactly. It wasn't going up and then coming back down. It was coming straight at you if you were anywhere north of the mountain. Yeah. And the reason why the north of the mountain was so dangerous is because that's where that hump had been.
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That's also where the earthquake moved a good portion of the mountain, which meant that all that pressure that was keeping that pressurized, superheated water from boiling under the mountain was suddenly exposed. It was—that pressure was gone. And so all of that incredibly hot water— Flash heated into steam. And when that happens, that expands.
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Like you said, one of the reasons steam can't exist in that situation is because it's too expansive. When it does have the chance to expand, it does so with incredible force. Yeah. And that's what happened. That's why Mount St. Helens blew out the side rather than the top, because there had been a weakening in the pressure that allowed all that to just blow out. And blow out it did.
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Like I've researched it. Like I've literally researched butter because I want to get the most bang for my buck. And it is at the top of basically every list. It's good. Of like any butter of any kind. It's really, really good butter.
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Good Lord. But, I mean, that's what it would take to move 0.6 square or cubic miles of mountain all of a sudden, too, you know?
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And that blast, Chuck, that 24-megaton blast, it was described as like a fast-moving cloud of heat and stones moving at some points pretty close to the mountain, 300 miles an hour. Oh, man. Heated to like 660 degrees Fahrenheit. I think that's like 380 degrees Celsius. Just blowing northward away from the mountain. And everything within eight miles of that, of the mountain, was in that blast zone.
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And if you'll recall correctly, David Johnston's Coldwater 2 camp was within about five miles.
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Yeah, I have the impression the same thing happened to David Johnston and also that ham radio operator who was volunteering to kind of document it. He documented David Johnston getting covered up. He said – He said, gentlemen, the camper in the car that's sitting over to the south of me, he was talking about David Johnston, is covered, is going to hit me too.
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And that was Jerry Martin, that ham radio operator, and that was his last transmission. He was vaporized as well, essentially. Everything, everything north of the mountain within eight miles was just destroyed. Just destroyed. Like entire hundred-foot trees that were like... 10, 12 feet in diameter, just completely flattened and also denuded of any bark on the way as well.
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Yeah, I carried around in my pocket.
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And this was just a blast. The landslide that was created from the earthquake that initially triggered the eruption, that had some incredible effects as well.
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Yeah, it was like it had so much power, Chuck, that Sly did, that one part of it was carrying chunks of rock as big as 558 feet or 170 meters across.
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That's as big as a 50-story building. It was moving rocks that size. Holy cow.
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fast as you can imagine down the mountain into the valleys. And I saw it described as if you were watching it from a ridge, as some people were, like far away, you would see the cloud or the debris starting to come at you. It would disappear into a valley, and then all of a sudden it would come up over the ridge and keep going. It was just filling valleys with rocks and debris. It's unimaginable.
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I haven't seen the tub. We have a stick because we have a cute little butter dish that we use. Of course you do. So we use the sticks. So anyway, back to Mount St. Helens, the episode today. I was four years old when this happened. So, I mean, I didn't know what was going on. But I imagine you were like, holy cow, this is one of the most amazing things I've ever seen on my TV.
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Trying to grasp what happened. And it's even crazier that some people are actually there watching this happen. Crazy. It is crazy. You want to take a break?
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Yep, delivered online, APU's programs make it possible to learn wherever life takes you. And courses are offered in 8- and 16-week formats with monthly start dates so you can begin when it's convenient and progress at a pace that's comfortable for you.
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So visit apu.apus.edu slash military to learn more. American Public University, education that moves with you.
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That's right, Chuck. Andrew Moyes, VP of Fan Expo HQ, had this to say about Orlando. Often, we will bring our entire team to Orlando for the event, and that includes our executive-level team members as well. And we're able to give them a great experience with luxury hotels, special restaurants, all those key things to feed into the proper executive experience.
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He also said that Orlando's easy airport access and close proximity to hotels and transportation make it a top choice for hosting major events.
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Yeah. I also saw that lake was now 200 feet higher in elevation than it had been before. As if like there was so much debris, it like raised the lake 200 feet, even though it also made it shallower. It's nuts.
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Yeah, I can't remember. I think by like 600 meters or something like that, some ridiculous amount of height just blown off. And that was another thing, too, like the after effects of it. If you look at Mount St. Helens today or especially like right afterward, it turned into like an amphitheater. Like the north side was blown out and the other sides were kind of curved around.
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And what was neat is one of the huge aftereffects of Mount St. Helens, one of the more positive ones, is I saw it described as like a crash course for volcanologists and seismologists and everybody who now just had this amazing natural laboratory to study in. And the eruption, because it was a lateral blast, opened up like basically a cross-section of the mountain,
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That they could study now its past history from the inside out, which I thought was pretty neat.
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Oh, wow. That was just completely made up.
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I also saw there was a lot of devastation. Any big game animal in the blast zone was, I said big game animal, by the way, was in the blast zone, was killed without question. But they were very surprised. Biologists who went in to investigate shortly afterward found there were like entire communities and ecosystems of smaller animals and plants everywhere.
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microbes, fungi that had survived just fine and were among the first to recolonize and were part of the reason why Mount St. Helens ecosystem started to rebound so quickly.
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Probably. And then the animals that lived underground will come above ground and say, it's our time, baby. I look forward to that day for some reason. What else happened? Oh, I saw that the ash cloud that blew finally out of the top, we should say that the lateral blast was followed by a plinian blast. Right.
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And that shot, like, you know, that was the money volcano shot that everybody was looking for. A plume of ash and smoke rose 80,000 feet into the air. And it was moving so fast that it circled the globe in 15 days. Came back to square one in 15 days. And, of course, that was, like, affecting air traffic. Do you remember that Icelandic volcano that affected air traffic in Europe for, like, weeks?
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Yeah. Weren't you stranded by that or something? Yeah.
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Okay. I don't think so. Okay. Like they knew what to do in part because of how Mount St. Helens affected air travel. At the time, they were like, this is brand new to us. But it helped lay the groundwork for understanding what to look for, how to deal with that kind of stuff later on.
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Yeah, if you could do that lumberjack log rolling thing, you could have probably made it across the lake. You probably could have.
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Yeah, although I think it was more of like a regional thing for the lead up. And then also if you were a geologist, a volcanologist, a seismologist, anything that had to do with volcanoes erupting or mountains, then it would have been a big deal to you too. And it definitely attracted them from far and wide. And because there was so much warning – And it was able to, by it, I mean, Mount St.
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But in that minute-by-minute episode, there was a pair of high school sweethearts who'd been camping, and they had a harrowing experience because they both got thrown into Spirit Lake, and the boyfriend was able to rescue the girlfriend as the logs were starting to close in on him. He pulled her out from the lake, and they were hanging on to logs when they finally made it out. And were rescued.
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That happened. Like that happened to somebody. Yeah, they were in their car. Oh, is that how, that's how they got in the lake? They were in their car?
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Right. Yeah, because there were trees everywhere floating around beside them, right? Yeah.
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Right. Yeah, and some people didn't make it. There was one guy who was chronicled in that that was driving as fast as he can, and the blast just caught up with him and buried him in the ash, and he probably died pretty much instantly. But, like, again, that happened to people. There's very famous footage of a house just flowing down like a newly engorged mudslidey river.
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Moving so fast that you probably could have towed water skiers from the house, essentially. It was moving that fast just down the river. So, I mean, again, it was one of the most documented volcanic eruptions of all time. So there's really amazing footage on there or just on the Internet is what I mean. But that wasn't the last time that Mount St. Helens has erupted.
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I think it erupted a few times between 1980 and maybe 1996, I think.
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And then the biggest one recently was between 2004 and 2008.
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Yeah, I believe, you know, the eruption was such a big deal that they've opened, the USGS opened a research station nearby. And also that 2004 activity basically ran from 2004 to 2008. Like you said, they've been studying the mountain closely. So there's amazing time-lapse footage Of those four years. And it's astounding how fast and how big Mount St. Helens just grows from that eruption activity.
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It's called time-lapse images of Mount St. Helens dome growth. It's on YouTube. And I recommend checking that out as well.
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Or bulge growth. Oh, boy. So, man, we are so juvenile sometimes, aren't we? Sure. And by we, I mean me. No, me too. But like we said, Mount St. Helens bounced back. Spirit Lake opened back up. And the Coldwater 2 Station has been renamed after David Johnston. And there's an amazing memorial, too. I saw on some TripAdvisor post that somebody said it was like one of the best –
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Helens was able to kind of draw to it like a magnet. All of these amazingly well-trained researchers, they were there when it went off. And it's probably the most best documented volcano in history because of that.
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Like, not welcome center, but, you know, information centers that the person's ever been to. So I would like to go there someday.
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You got anything else? I got nothing else. All right. Well, go forth and research Mount St. Helens with Ines. And you can start doing that by watching Dante's Peak. Since I said Dante's Peak, it's time for Listener Mail.
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Top to bottom, start to finish, wonderful email. Also, just put so nicely, too. Not like you big dummies. Yeah. Because I got it pretty wrong. It was a terrible guess. I didn't think it was a bad guess. But, I mean, that was really hard. Like, that was obscure, you know? Very much. Anyway, I love knowing that now. That was one of my favorite emails. So thanks a lot, Nat.
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And if you want to be like Nat and get in touch with us in the best way possible, you can send us an email to stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com.
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OK, so just a real quick refresher. We've done volcanoes and I think we've done super volcanoes, too, because that sounds like us.
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OK, so we talked a lot about how volcanoes work in those episodes. So if you want to know a lot more in depth, go check those out. But just as a refresher for the specific kind of volcano that Mount St. Helens is, it's a stratovolcano and it's created when one younger plate is subducted under an older plate.
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And as the younger plate goes down into the bowels of the earth, all of the rock it carries with it gets heated up. Same with water, too. And that stuff travels upward because it's less dense than the surrounding mantle down below. And as it gets closer and closer to the crust, it wants to pop out of there.
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But it can't necessarily. Sometimes it can. And when it can, it just spews out all sorts of molten lava and that builds the volcano in a kind of a cone shape, which is what Mount St. Helens was up until May 18th, 1980.
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Right. Yeah. 40,000 years ago, maybe less.
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Right. So the whole thing that's driving Mount St. Helens, and apparently also there's some other, I guess, volcanic mountains in the area, like Adams. I think Mount Adams is one as well. Yeah. There's a magma chamber somewhere under there, I think possibly miles and miles below the surface. But under normal circumstances, like I said, when a straddle volcano is formed, the magma
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The lava just kind of is able to find cracks in the crust and like it's released through there and it builds the mountain up slowly and slowly. But if there's not a crack in the crust, as in the case where Mount St. Helens is, that magma starts to back up. It hits the crust and it starts to back up below.
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And all of a sudden you have a lot of stuff going on that makes things go kaboom when the right set of circumstances happens.
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Yeah, like this pressure is building up so much, it's causing a boil on the mountain. The mountain grows a goiter, basically, and that's just full of pressure and magma just waiting to go off. It doesn't always go off. And in fact, Mount St. Helens had two bulges, also called cryptodomes, which is pretty awesome, from previous volcanic eruptions.
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One was called Goat Rocks Bulge, and then the other one was called the Sugar Bowl Bulge. And they just never – like the magma found its way out other ways, but the bulge was left. This is a new bulge, and like you said, it was growing I think about six feet a day. Every day it kept growing another six feet, which is really fast for a mountain to grow. Mm-hmm.
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And that was one of the big signs initially that something was going on. And one more thing before we start to get into Mount St. Helens itself, Chuck. I think we need to say, like, Mount St. Helens was big. It was a big eruption. But it was not the biggest eruption Mount St. Helens has ever had.
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Apparently, the biggest eruption it's ever had came just about 4,000 years ago, which is within traditional, like, folktale memory. Yeah.
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Hey everyone, it's Josh, and for this week's SYSK Selects, I've chosen our January 2023 episode on the Mount St. Helens eruption. Seems like just last year. It's a really good episode that's packed with science, action, adventure, heroics, life and death danger. It's got it all. It's one of my favorite episodes, so I hope you enjoy it as well.
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Yeah, I think that's a great idea, actually. And the reason they call it Luit, that was she was named after a like a famous volcanic fire tender woman. And Luit and a couple of other men who fell in love with her and fought for her became Luit became Mount St. Helens or Luit, if you want to call it that. And then the other men who were fighting for became Mount Hood and Mount Adams.
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They were smited by the creator God and turned into mountains for fighting. And there's legends, not just from the Puyallup, but other indigenous tribes around the area that something really big happened. And it looks like what it is is a geomyth, which we've talked about before.
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And I think the Great Floods episode that has been handed down generation after generation that describes this enormous eruption 4,000 years ago. Pretty good stuff. Yeah, for sure. And it was a big eruption, too. There's just one other thing. There is a layer of tephra, of basically volcanic ash and debris and stuff, that is so thick and so wide it goes up into British Columbia.
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And 62 miles away from Mount St. Helens, it's still 20 inches thick, almost two feet thick of ash, 62 miles away. That's how big that 4,000-year-ago eruption was.
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I'm being short because I don't want to take up too much time talking about certain things.
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Yeah, I love that story. I forgot about him.
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No, definitely not. Because also in the 19th century, there was a lot of eruptions, too. There's a painting by a Canadian artist named Paul Kane who painted an 1847 eruption. So, I mean, starting in the 19th century, Mount St. Helens was documented pretty clearly, scientifically, too, as being an eruptive volcano, a disruptive volcano, you can almost say.
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Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry Roland. So this is Stuff You Should Know, Scratching Edition. Yeah, this is one of many. You remember when we did yawning? Yeah. Well, that's the only one I can think of, where just researching something makes you do the thing you're researching. This definitely happened with this one.
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We'll just cut to the chase here. This is why everyone's listening. How do you scratch a niche correctly? You rub it.
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Were you biting down like a broomstick while you were doing that?
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So we'll actually talk about this because you're raising some great points here.
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No, no, this is good stuff. We're going to analyze what was going on with your arm after this break. How about that? Sounds good.
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Hey, everybody. It's Chuck and Josh here to talk to you about Squarespace. Squarespace makes it easy to build the website of your dreams and do whatever you like with it.
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Yeah, and when it's time to collect that money, Squarespace offers an easier way to collect payments so you can focus on growing your business. You can invoice clients and get paid for your services, turn leads into clients with proposals, estimates, and contracts, and simplify your workflow and manage your service business on one platform. What else could you possibly ask for?
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Well, I'm glad. I've been wanting to do this one for a while.
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So what happened was something in the cement, and I'm not sure what it was, reacted chemically with the mast cells in your skin. Yeah. And histamine was released, right? Apparently. And so the histamine sent a signal through specialized nerve cells called C-fibers to
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Right, right. So they use the same type of neural pathway as pain, but for itch, basically it's just like, no, these are just for itches only. Yeah. And it sent a signal through your spinal column. And in your spinal column, it released a neurotransmitter called gastrin-releasing peptide receptor. And so at the skin, the histamine would have released a neurotransmitter called what?
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Okay. So that says itch signal coming your way along those C fibers.
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Okay. It makes it to the spinal column. And I guess in about 2007, they found that there's another neurotransmitter in the spine that I guess accepts the NPPB.
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and says, I'm going to transfer this along up to the brain, that's gastrin-releasing peptide receptor. That shoots up to the brain, and it starts this cascade of activity, right?
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Because when they, like after Handwerker said, hey, you know, itching's its own thing, these other researchers went to town and traced and figured out that there were specific types of itch receptors that were dedicated just to itches, right? Yeah, more germans. More Germans. And Swedes in this case. A couple of Swedes, but mostly Germans. Just for good measure. Yeah.
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And what they found eventually from tracing this pathway, they were able to follow it into the wonder machine. And apparently they made some people itch and would not let them scratch it. And then they had them lay down in an MRI. And they took a brain scan. And they found that there's this whole galaxy of stuff going on in your brain that combined is the itch sensation. Yeah.
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Yeah, we have to just play the whole thing, and then we'll talk about it for an hour after. That sounds good. Okay. I think it was a Brain Stuff video, wasn't it? Yeah, I watched it. Did it scratch your itch? Yeah, I watched it yesterday. Oh, okay. Nice work. Thank you very much. Now we finally arrive at what I was after.
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Right, and maybe go smoke some crack and eat some cake while you're at it. Because that'll help.
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Yeah, that's an itch and then followed by the irresistible urge to scratch it, which apparently research has shown those two do not happen independently. They're part of a cycle.
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There's something called the itch-scratch cycle, right? And so you have an irresistible urge to scratch the itch. It's weird if you think about it. On the one hand, it makes sense where you sense that there's a really hot heat source that your hand is really close to. So you have an irresistible urge to pull it back. But it doesn't feel like an urge.
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It almost feels like an involuntary reflex, right? Yeah, I think it's that quick. A scratch is almost like I'm going to kill this itch. I can't wait to scratch it. Like you're almost exacting revenge on the itch for itching you, right? So a scratch is an irresistible urge where it's like pulling your hand back from a hot source or something is like an involuntary reflex. It just feels different.
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Right, and so you would think that itch receptors are super finely tuned and they cover just this one tiny micron of skin. As a matter of fact, no. Apparently an itch receptor can sense itch stimuli like three inches away from it on the skin.
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compliment yeah no it was great thanks man um so i guess the the point of all that is to say you guys are going you're going right my videos are the best uh that you're going to scratch you're going to feel an itch which is one of the great mysteries of itches it turns out we only very very recently have started to get a handle on
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So the itching is a good strategy if you think about, say, there's a mosquito on you and that's what's making you itch. When you go to scratch it, you're getting rid of the mosquito, maybe even smushed it or something like that. The problem is taken care of. The issue is that itch scratch cycle eventually becomes a vicious cycle because when you scratch, this is what they think is going on.
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This is another mystery with itches. We don't understand how scratching alleviates an itch or why we scratch really, right? What they think, the current hypothesis is that when you scratch an itch, you're stimulating other receptors in the area that aren't itch receptors.
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Right, exactly. It's sending feedback to the brain saying it's being taken care of. You can settle down with the itch. Gotcha. Right? I think. The problem is that neurologically or neurochemically, when you scratch an itch, You're activating those pain receptors in the area, pain pressure, that kind of thing. You're causing serotonin to be released. Right. Natural pain reliever, right?
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Or at least mood enhancer. And what they found is that serotonin, among other neurochemicals, actually exacerbates the itch sensation. So your itch not only comes back, it gets worse.
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No. But I think the reason why it's possible that it could have that effect is supposedly scratching also activates your pleasure center.
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But there's different places where you're scratching on your body have different amounts of pleasure associated with them. Did you know that? I mean, I guess so. Yeah, interesting. Interesting. Yeah, but, I mean, think about it. It's like if you scratch your clavicle. Who cares? It's nothing, right? But then you scratch, like, your head, right, above and behind your ear. It's great.
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what itches are yeah um and there's still plenty of mysteries left to it like for example it's bizarre and there's really no evolutionary reason as far as anyone can tell why just hearing about itches or seeing someone else scratch can make you itch right that's that's odd that's that's weird we're seeing a video of an ant crawling up yeah an arm will make you itch It will.
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I think it crosses a line once they're potentially clawing away skin cells. I think that's no longer in the masseuse range or masseur range.
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But, I mean, think about it. If somebody is sitting there, you see a video of some schmo who's got his hand like near an oven and he pulls it away really quick, it doesn't hurt your hand. It doesn't make you feel like your hand is burned. No. That doesn't happen.
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Yeah, I think the itching came after the shingles even. And at first, her physicians were like, well, I mean, you must have damaged some nerves in there. So, T.S. for you, I guess. Yeah. And then eventually, after treating it like all these different ways and it still being scratching… They said, okay, you're crazy. How about that?
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And she said, well, whatever. I still have this itch. Do whatever you need to to treat it because I'm literally scratching this itch in my sleep. It was on her scalp, wasn't it?
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Yeah. Can you believe that? She scratched her scalp so much that she scratched through her skull. And she went into her doctor one day and said, they've got like this green fluid coming down. And then apparently the doctor didn't even say anything.
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It was just she or she was like, excuse me, went and called an ambulance and came back and said, please lay down and don't talk or move or do anything else. And they finally told her after she was at the ER that, You scratch through to your brain. Like, that's your brain you're touching right now.
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She said also in this article, she said that she had a, what do they call them? A roommate. Yeah. Okay, a roommate. Yeah. So she had a roommate while she was, like they treated it. Gave her a skin graft. And then she itched. She scratched away the skin graft. Oh, man. And then they finally were like, okay, you're going to an asylum. And she's like, do they even call it that anymore?
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You're just like, what a stupid idiot. That's what it excites, you know? I hope that guy's hand just burns clean off. That's what I think, right? Right.
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And they put her in this asylum and restrained her, like you said, while she was sleeping. And she had a roommate in there. She said in the article she heard didn't survive. He had scratched through his carotid artery and died, bled to death.
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So... They never really got to the bottom of this. She finally got a doctor. The doctors were like, it's something that had to do with the shingles. This is what we think happens at our doctors, that the nerve endings around the area where she had shingles were so devastated by the shingles that there were just a couple of nerve endings left, and it just so happened that they were itch receptors.
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Yeah, itch receptors. Bad luck. And that those were like really exacerbated by the fact that there was no other competing sensations. Oh. Ipso facto, there's your problem, right? So they said, well, we'll just cut the main nerve to your face and that should solve the problem. They cut the main nerve to her face. She said, thanks a lot. Yeah. And then the itch came back.
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And she's like, you have to be kidding me. So finally she met a doctor who said, I don't think it's your receptors or the nerve transmission. I think it's your brain.
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Not psychologically. I don't think it's a psychosis. I think that the actual itch signal in your brain is being set off without any stimulation or transmission going on. And apparently she was right. But then they were like, good luck treating that.
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They said, a tool, a tool, come on. So the idea, though, that even if this woman was hypothetical, I think Atul Gawande is a pretty upstanding cat and didn't make this up. But even if, say, she was hypothetical, her problem, what the doctors initially thought it was, was that she had a neuropathic itch. Type of chronic itch.
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But then the doctor who apparently figured it all out said, no, no, no, it's a neurogenic itch, another type of chronic itch. And it has to do with whether it's the brain going off or the nerve transmissions going off. Either way, you don't actually have an itch, although you're experiencing the itch sensation.
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One of the best names in writing today. Yeah, that may be my new hotel name. Well, you may be thronged by science fans because that guy's pretty well-known.
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Right. Finally. And then again, they said, there's really nothing we can do to treat it. The one that they've got down pretty well is prureceptive. We've got all sorts of stuff to treat that because that's basically histamine is being released and your skin is itching. So you can treat histamines with antihistamines.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
The other three, you're in trouble, it turns out, as far as it stands right now. Maybe five or ten years from now, there'll be something. Apparently, there is a lot of movement right now on treating this stuff, but it's like they're having to figure out how to block some really otherwise important chemicals in the body, like that NPPB, right? Right.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
You said it, Morgellons, right? And I said Morgellons?
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
I don't know. I read another article called Accidental Therapists. It's by a guy named Eric Broodman and it was published on a website called Stat. It's all about delusional parasitosis. but how it's treated sometimes by entomologists, like those extension services at universities.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Here in the U.S., state universities have what are called extension services where a scientist will basically be there for the public to come talk to about whatever. Usually it's like household stuff or farm stuff, something like that. And apparently entomologists frequently are approached with people who are like, I've got these bugs like crawling all over me. Here's a sample of them.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Yeah, but you have to be like, I'm not Brad Pitt. I'm Atul Gawande. Right.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
And it turns out it's like carpet fiber or something like that. And these people just can't stop itching or whatever. But it turns out they have a delusion. They don't actually have parasites. My question is, is that our understanding of it now and in five or ten years we're going to know that they had neurogenic itches and we just treated them like they were crazy even though they weren't?
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
And it's going to be like a real blemish on the history of neuroscience? Maybe. Or will this idea of psychogenic itches hold up?
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
I know what you're talking about. No, it's called the Road to Wellville. Is that what you mean? No, it's called Safe. Okay, I'll check it out.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Yeah, I mean, have you ever like stopped and thought about something and thought, there's the path to madness right there. I'm staring down it right now. I should probably not keep thinking about this.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Yeah, I mean, somebody can. Like, obviously, like, you know, if you're like, a little left, a little left, up, up, up. Yeah, see, I agree with that.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
I think what they're saying is it doesn't have quite the same relieving properties as if you do it yourself.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
So calm down for now, Atul's mom. We'll get to it eventually.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Unless you get somebody who really goes the extra mile and puts almonds on the tips to make it look like the claw.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
That's the difference between a baker who loves their job and one who's just in it for the money.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
A couple more things, Charles. Like we said, there's still plenty of mysteries around itches. Yeah. Why, say, does a feather tickle sometimes but itch other times? Uh-huh. Big question. They don't know.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Only the Germans can save us. You got anything else? No, I don't. I don't either. Itching.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
No, I've been scratching the same spot, and it's starting to get a little tender, so I'm stopping.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
So I guess the moral of this one is, what would Tom Petty do? I'll ask him tomorrow. If you want to know more about itching or what Tom Petty would do, you can type those words in the search bar at HowStuffWorks.com. And since I said search bar, it's time for listener mail.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
They had the itch to explain the itch. I guess so. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
That was a very nice email. Yeah. If you want to get in touch with us like Ms. Alan did, you can send us an email at stuffpodcast at howstuffworks.com. And as always, join us at our home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
It is. And actually, it's so on the money that anywhere you look in the medical literature, whenever they define itch, word for word, that's the definition they use. The Haffenreffer? Yeah. Although poor Haffenreffer doesn't get credit for it all the time. But that's the one. The only expansion of that that I've seen is that can occur anywhere on the body, which apparently is true.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Oh, I hadn't thought about that. I'm pretty sure that I was – I don't think I scratch as much as – I don't know. You raise a really good question.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Right. I'm surprised that that's not already a TV show, frankly. Josh and Chuck scratch? Just being followed around.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Oh. You know? No one wants to see that. Well, that's probably why it's not.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
See, that's what I'm saying. I don't think I scratch this much.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Yeah, do you know what a falsifier is? Us? No, really, isn't that somebody who bears false witness or somebody who falsifies a document?
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
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Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Sure, apparently. There's a special place in health for them, literally. Well, I guess actually not literally. Figuratively. Sure. Literarily.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Yeah, and that's still, as far as I know, the evolutionary hypothesis for why we experience itching. Yeah. And it's not just us either. Well, you're scratching like crazy now. It's found throughout the animal kingdom from us to apparently fish have shown scratching behavior. Yeah, that's crazy. Fruit flies. How does a fish scratch, you might ask? It rubs up against rocks. Yeah, it's kind of cute.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Right, because up to this point, up to actually 1987, everyone thought that an itch was just a low-grade pain stimulus. Yeah, I guess they were just happy with that. That's just what they thought it was. And Handverker said, you know what? Let's find out if this is actually true. I'm tired of sitting around just assuming this is fine. I'm Handverker.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
And he got to Verker with his hands testing this, right? So what he... I know it was like Jonathan Strickland level puns. What he did was... This is just awful.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
He introduced using like electrical stimulation, I guess. He introduced histamine to skin cells, right? And histamine is a natural, I don't know if it's a protein, but it's a natural chemical, right?
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
that the body releases in response to certain stimuli, say, for example, like a mosquito bite or something, and it triggers the inflammation and immune response in that area, right? So histamine is associated with itch, and it had been for a very long time. So this guy was using electrical stimulation to introduce histamine in increasing amounts in these poor study participants.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
And it went from barely noticeable to, this is a quote, the maximum imaginable itch. And they never felt pain.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
They said, please, please, for the love of God, stop. Let me out of this. And Handwerker just cackled and cackled. Right. These men with like black leather gloves were holding the participants down.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Yeah, that's nice, man. This would have been pre-Euro, I think. Oh, yeah. Even though the EU was around, I don't think the Euro was around in 87, right? No, no. It was the 90s?
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Yeah, because, I mean, if it's not just a low-level pain sensation, then that means it's its own thing. And if it's its own thing, it probably has its own system, and we need to know more about it. So they got to study in it.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
I don't know because from what I was reading, and all of this was pretty recent stuff, there is a real unmet medical need in dealing and addressing chronic itch. Sure. Because most people who go through life just experiencing itch under normal circumstances, right? Let's say you or me, we're like in itch, yeah, they suck for a second and then it goes away.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Imagine it not going away ever, whether you're asleep or awake or swimming or in outer space or doing whatever, you're itching constantly. Supposedly, it has as much of a pronounced effect on a patient's life as chronic pain does. It's constant, persistent, and agonizing. And it's not being met or treated because it's not understood. So they're just now starting to get into itch research. Yeah.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
I saw that somebody put it where pain research was about 20 years ago. So it's starting to really heat up, but we're still just starting to understand it. So I would think that they weren't looking to cure it. I think it was just pointed out that there was this whole branch of neuroscience that was totally not understood. So get to work, neurologists.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
You just go out there with your hands bandaged up just holding them up. Like how do you fight that on camera?
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Tom Petty grins and bears it. He had a hardscrabble childhood. He sure did. It prepared him for that. I'm going to see him tomorrow night.
Stuff You Should Know
Selects: How Itching Works
Well, it's a good question. Thanks. Do you remember when Costas had red eye at the Olympics and he was so dedicated to being the commentator, the anchor for the Olympics, they finally were like, you have to stop.
The Action Catalyst
REMASTERED: Protect Your Time, with Christy Wright (Business, Time Management, Success, Author)
If time is finite and it's the one thing that we all have the same amount of and you can't create more of, then why do you think some people accomplish more things and influence more people? So what's the explanation for that?
The Action Catalyst
REMASTERED: Protect Your Time, with Christy Wright (Business, Time Management, Success, Author)
So when it comes to saying no, when I really think about that, a lot of times we know we get asked to do something, we really don't want to do it, and we feel this guilt. What would you say to somebody who struggles with saying no and the guilt or the fear that they maybe feel to go, I really want to say no, but I'm having a hard time doing it?
The Action Catalyst
REMASTERED: Protect Your Time, with Christy Wright (Business, Time Management, Success, Author)
I'm so excited to introduce to you Christy Wright, and she is inspiring and enthusiastic. She educates and entertains audiences all across the country. She speaks at business conferences, Fortune 500 companies, some of America's top universities. And so, Christy, I'm so excited to have you. Thank you for being here.
The Action Catalyst
REMASTERED: Protect Your Time, with Christy Wright (Business, Time Management, Success, Author)
Yeah. So how do we avoid overcrowding the schedule?
The Action Catalyst
REMASTERED: Protect Your Time, with Christy Wright (Business, Time Management, Success, Author)
So you talk about boundaries. What do you see as the connection between boundaries and your calendar?
The Action Catalyst
REMASTERED: Protect Your Time, with Christy Wright (Business, Time Management, Success, Author)
So, you know, when we talk about time management, why do you think that is so important today? Why is that whole conversation such a big deal?
The Action Catalyst
REMASTERED: Protect Your Time, with Christy Wright (Business, Time Management, Success, Author)
So, you know, one of the things that's just heartbreaking for me is when people, you know, they have kids and they feel so like helpless, like, oh my gosh, how do I keep up with the spouse and my job and I have kids and all this sort of stuff. Have you seen any sort of common characteristics or traits of people that really do that effectively? Yeah.
The Action Catalyst
REMASTERED: Protect Your Time, with Christy Wright (Business, Time Management, Success, Author)
I love that. So Christy, thank you so much for being here. We wish you the very best.
The Action Catalyst
CLIP: Managing Stress the Healthy Way
For stress, here's what I think a lot of people don't realize is that, and I know that you do realize this, but stress is healthy if it's taken in doses. My wife and I work out all the time and But we always take at least one day a week off and typically two. And the reason is, is when we work out, we work out hard. It's when we don't schedule in times of rest that you're going to have an issue.
The Action Catalyst
CLIP: Managing Stress the Healthy Way
and what's things that you can say no to. And then on the right side, we start scheduling those things in because a lot of us have a work schedule. We have scheduled in to bring kids to soccer practice or whatever it is. You really need to schedule in times of rest, times of joy, you know, in times to live life. And I see this in a lot of people in business professionals.
The Action Catalyst
CLIP: Managing Stress the Healthy Way
This is something where I understand I'm type A. I will go out there and I I'll put it in an 80-hour week, or I would if I didn't have scheduled in times of rest and understanding this. In fact, there's a great book that really hits on this topic. It's called The Powerful Engagement. It's a great business book that everyone might enjoy, but they really talk about this.
The Action Catalyst
CLIP: Managing Stress the Healthy Way
And they actually have done studies on business executives, and they found they were much more effective when they schedule it in times of rest. And that might look like you once a day taking a 30-minute walk in the afternoon and and kind of letting your brain recharge and get refreshed. Even something as simple as that makes a big difference.
The Action Catalyst
CLIP: Managing Stress the Healthy Way
Even taking your time into working out in the middle of the day. Even if it's just 30 minutes, that allows to reset your brain. In fact, in the book, they really talk about it takes 20 minutes of not thinking about and concentrating on something for your brain to reset.
The Action Catalyst
CLIP: Managing Stress the Healthy Way
And if you can take 20 to 30 minutes completely away from thinking and being engaged, it really allows your body to sort of reset there. So anyways, I think in terms of stress, You know, that's an important thing to consider. And I talked about the business side. It's a similar thing, though, with parents, whether you're a business exec or not. I know a lot of moms out there.
The Action Catalyst
CLIP: Managing Stress the Healthy Way
They're with kids all day and they probably get zero alone time in an average week. And so one of the things I work with those moms are doing is getting three hours by themselves a week. And so they can walk through the mall or do lunch with the best friend or whatever it might be. This is really I think it's important for everyone to try and do.
The Action Catalyst
CLIP: Managing Stress the Healthy Way
you know, I know everyone has a different spiritual beliefs, but this is a, this is something, you know, taking a Sabbath or a day off from, from, from the beginning of time. And if you look in other cultures, both in Asian culture, European culture, there is a very long time in the middle of day where people are resting. So,
The Action Catalyst
CLIP: Managing Stress the Healthy Way
You know, in Europe, lunch is definitely longer, typically an hour and a half to two hours in some cases. In Asia, again, there's times for tea and those sort of things in the middle of the day. And so a lot of times I know business execs in the U.S. are working from 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. I mean, that can be common.
The Action Catalyst
CLIP: Managing Stress the Healthy Way
And so, again, you can work as hard. I mean, in most cases, you can work really, really hard, be into things and give it your all. But you have to take at least one day a week off. And you have to schedule things throughout your day that get your mind off things and allow your body to rest. And so your mind, in a way, is a muscle. It has to work if you never rest it.
The Action Catalyst
CLIP: Managing Stress the Healthy Way
It's just like if you're trying to work your biceps over time, if you give it too much of a load, day after day after day, you're lifting these heavy dumbbells. Eventually, you're going to tear it. You're going to injure it.
The Action Catalyst
CLIP: Managing Stress the Healthy Way
and the same thing can happen with our with our with our minds and our emotions if we overdo it and so one of the things i've had my patients do over the years is get out a sheet of paper have them write down on the left side everything that is stressing them out and their work hours and kind of all you know we kind of brainstorm and write out all those things on the right shot side of the sheet of paper i have them write down all of the things they love to do things that bring them joy things that help take their mind off things
The Action Catalyst
CLIP: Managing Stress the Healthy Way
And, and whether that be going for a walk or going to the mall or watching a movie by themselves, whatever it is, we kind of write down all those things that they love to do. And so we go down the left side and we start figuring out, okay, how do we better deal with this situation? What can you get out of your life? Because a lot of times we have too many things we're doing.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
I'm okay. I appreciate you taking the call.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
I guess I'll cut right to it. I've been following you guys for a little while, trying to get my finances on track. I've come to a
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
other substance abuse issues and i let that go i've been clean from all that and i just kind of picked up the bottle and i'm just tired of it tired doing the same things over and over again tired of relying on something to feel like i need it to function awesome i'm proud of you man i'm proud of you so uh how can we help
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
Well, pretty much my insurance situation, the only way to get into treatment, it covers most of it except for about $6,000. Okay. $6,000 to $10,000, depending on location. So, really not trying to get into any more debt.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
But I want to take care of this.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
I've been calling and asking for scholarships. I've called hundreds of places probably.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
Maybe a slight exaggeration, but I've been on the phone.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
No. That'll cover my insurance.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
Because that's the cheapest thing I've been able to find is a $6,000 copay.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
Yes, that's the cheapest thing I can get. I've applied for scholarships. Okay. They're saying they're not doing it.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
No. I mean, I've got a truck, but it's my work truck.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
No, I'm upside down in it.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
Probably about 11 grand. What do you owe on it? About 200,000 miles on it. 12.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
No, I get what you're saying, but it's a truck with 200,000 miles on it, and not that many people are going to spend $11,000.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
Nope. Unfortunately, no.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
And that's another thing I'm worried about. Finances bills keep coming.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
I've even been looking into detoxes, and it's still about that same number. Just for like a week, detox.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
Oh, no, no, they will. They will do that. That's why I was no interest, but that's why I was on the call because I've already got other debt racked up.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you so much. I appreciate everything.
The Ramsey Show
The Hardest Decisions Are Often About Money & Relationships
Yes, I want to be. I mean, I'm tired of it.
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
Good. So I've got a couple questions. So first off is my wife and I recently moved to a remote town in Idaho where there is no major companies and there's no handyman up here either. So my wife and I decided this year we're on baby step two currently. And we've kind of decided that this year might be a good year for me to start a handyman LLC. I've already got all the tools to do it.
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
The only thing that would cost me out the door is the initial startup through the state for the LLC paperwork and the filing fee and all that. So that's roughly about $500. The downfall is I'm having a really hard time finding business insurance as well as the only thing it would cost me running this LLC is my time and my fuel. That's all it would take. So those are my two main questions.
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
Is starting an LLC at this point in our life a good idea, a bad idea? And then as far as business insurance, I don't know what to do anymore.
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
Okay. So I've been told by multiple companies that because I am too much of a jack of all trades, that they won't cover it because of the fact there's too many things that I can do. They're telling me that I need to specialize in one or two specific skills if it's But the downfall is if I specialize in flooring, then I can't do trim. If I do trim, I can't do painting, stuff like that.
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
Yeah, no, it's fine. So I could get my general contractor's license. It's not overly expensive, but they do require you to put down one or two specialized skills specifically instead of having a large array of certain things.
The Ramsey Show
Your Future Self Deserves Better Choices Today
Well, there's a lot of flooring up here that needs done as well as everybody around here has got a piece of wood busted, broken somewhere. So it's, I mean, it's a little old mining town in Idaho.