Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
427: Live work with Joshua--The Secret of Self-Esteem
Mon, 16 Dec 2024
Live work with Joshua-- The Secret of Self-Esteem I was recently a guest on the “Philosophical Weightlifting” podcast with host Joshua Gibson (link). At the end of the interview, he asked if I could give an example of some of the techniques in TEAM-CBT, so I decided to jump right into a live demonstration, in real time, which we are publishing on today’s podcast. I am very grateful to Joshua and hope you enjoy the session as much as we did! The session covers a number of topics that just about everyone can relate to, including a couple extremely common Self-Defeating Beliefs: The Achievement Addiction The Love Addiction The Inadequacy Schema (“I’m not good enough.”) It also covers some familiar territory, including the question, “Am I good enough?” It also provides an answer to the questions: “What is the secret of self-esteem,” and “what is the secret of sex appeal?” To kick things off, Joshua shares an upsetting event along with some of his negative thoughts and feelings. The upsetting event was feeling attracted to a young woman who waited on him in a restaurant, and then going to his car and wishing he’d asked for her personal information for a date. Then he courageously went back and did just that, but got shot down. Paired with this experience, his overwhelming thoughts and how strongly he believes each one are: I won’t be successful. 85% I won’t get to live the life I want to live. 70% I won’t find love. 90% I’m not attractive. 100% This is a list of Joshua’s negative feelings, and how strong each one was at the start of the session: Feeling % Now % Goal % End Anxious 95% Sad 90% Guilty 85% Inadequate 90% Lonely 90% Embarrassed 90% Hopeless 85% Frustrated 70% Angry (with self) 75% Two things stand out when you examine this list. First, Joshua is an attractive, friendly, and personable young man hosting a popular podcast. If we didn’t have these estimates of his feelings, you would have NO WAY of knowing how he felt inside. These feelings are all very severe. So many people we greet in our daily lives are similar—looking terrific on the outside, but dying of loneliness and unhappiness within. Second, he is experiencing nine different types of similarly elevated negative feelings, and not just one negative feeling. This confirms statistical modeling I’ve done with data from the Feeling Great App. There appears to be an unknown “Common Cause” in the human psyche that activates numerous feelings simultaneously. This is like the “dark matter” of the human psyche. We can prove its existence, but don’t yet know precisely what it is! However, our goal today will be to see if we can help Joshua change the way he’s feeling, regardless of what’s causing his pain. Positive Reframing Tool Feeling Positives Frustration It has motivated me to work hard It shows I have not given up Anxiety Keeps me from putting myself at risk It has inspired me to face my fears and grow Sadness Shows how much I care about others Helps me understand others who are suffering, like my mom Shows I have high standards and high expectations Guilt Shows that I want to live up to my expectations Shows that I have a strong moral compass Inadequacy Shows I’m honest about my flaws and eager to improve Show I’m humble Makes me approachable Loneliness Has helped my develop independence and autonomy Has motivated me to reach out to close community and to create my own Embarrassment Makes me behave in socially desirable ways Hopelessness This serves as a driving force Shows that I’m a critical and realistic thinker Protects me from disappointment Anger (at self) Shows that I have high expectations for myself and hold myself to a nigh standard You can see Joshua’s goals for each negative feeling after we used the Magic Dial. The whole idea was to lower his negative feelings, not all the way to zero, since that would also wipe out all these positives, but lower them enough so that he would suffer less and still preserve all the many positives we listed, and more. Feelings Table with Goal column filled in Feeling % Now % Goal % End Anxious 95% 20% Sad 90% 10-15% Guilty 85-90% 15% Inadequate 90% 10% Lonely 90% 20% Embarrassed 90% 10-15% Hopeless 85% 20% Frustrated 70% 20% Angry (with self) 75% 5% As you can see, he decided to lower all of his negative feelings if possible. Now, we’re ready for the M = Methods of TEAM-CBT. Joshua said he wanted to work on, “I’m not attractive” first. I asked Joshua how and why he came to this conclusion, since he is clearly a large and attractive guy. He confessed he had severe acne when he was an adolescent, and now has scarring that makes him look “disfigured”. Although he probably does have some scars, I asked Joshua if he thought this thought might contain some cognitive distortions. He immediately mentioned All-or-Nothing Thinking (AON). I asked Joshua to “Explain this Distortion.” Specifically, I wanted him to imagine that I was a fourth grade student, and to explain to me in simple terms WHY this thought is an example of AON, why the AON in this case is unrealistic and misleading, and why it is also unfair. He did a great job, and this reduced his belief in the thought to 50%. As an exercise, can you think of some additional distortions in this thought? Briefly stop this recording so you can write them down on a piece of paper, and then you can look at the answers at the end of the show notes. “Explain the Distortions” was an excellent first step, but it was not enough, so we went on to the Paradoxical Double Standard Technique. I played the role of a long lost identical twin or best friend who was just like Joshua. I explained that I thought I was not attractive, and asked him what he thought. He did a tremendous job, and argued that this was not really valid, and I asked if he was being honest or just trying to cheer me up. He said he was being completely honest. Then we switched into high gear, using a much more aggressive technique, the Externalization of Voices, including Self-Defense, the Acceptance Paradox, and the Counter-Attack Technique, with perhaps a couple additional techniques thrown in. He got some strong momentum and blew all four negative thoughts out of the water. We were out of time, but did take the time to rate how he felt at the end, which you can see below. Feelings Table at the End of Session Feeling % Now % Goal % End Anxious 95% 20% 0% Sad 90% 10-15% 0% Guilty 85-90% 15% 0% Inadequate 90% 10% 0% Lonely 90% 20% 0% Embarrassed 90% 10-15% 0% Hopeless 85% 20% 0% Frustrated 70% 20% 0% Angry (with self) 75% 5% 0% Answer to the quiz question above: The thought, “I’m not attractive contained many distortions in addition to AON, including: OG = Overgeneralization MF = Mental Filtering DP = Discounting the Positive MR = Mind-Reading Mag/Min = Magnification and Minimization ER = Emotional Reasoning LAB = Labeling SH = Hidden Should Statement SB = Self-Blame I was extremely grateful and honored to be a guest on Joshua’s wonderful podcast, Philosophical Weightlifting, and invited him to join our Tuesday psychotherapy training class at Stanford because of his work in coaching. If you are a mental health professional, including a therapist or coach, contact me and let me know! The classes are two hours weekly and free of charge, although some course materials are required. Thank you so much, Joshua, for sharing your “inner self” with me and all of your and our podcast fans! And thank you, all of you, for listening or watching today! Rhonda, Joshua and David The following is an awesome email I received from Jason Meno right after he listened to the Joshua session. Hey there! I just finished listening to the last hour segment of David's "Philosophical Weightlifting" podcast episode with Joshua Gibson (it starts at about 1:13:52). It was fun to see a 45-minute TEAM session in action. I thought the Externalization of Voices (EoV) that was done here that seemed to work really well, really fast. It also highlighted a lot of complex dynamics that I see David use a lot. Here's my analysis of what went down and what I think we can learn from it: Joshua's attack: Joshua's negative thought was "I'm not attractive", but when it came time for him to attack, he said, "You know Joshua, you are disfigured and because of that you're unlovable and that's an unavoidable thing you're going to have to deal with." This attack is a lot more powerful than just the thought "You're not attractive." It digs into hurtful labels, hopelessness, and frustration. When you are in the position of roleplaying as the negative voice, there's often new and subtle dimensions that come out of it. Right now we are making it easy for the user to attack the AI by just printing out their negative thoughts, but I think letting the attack be more dynamic would be a lot better. David uses Be Specific: "Can you tell me in what way I'm disfigured?" I REALLY like Be Specific. It sets things up very well. I'd love to do this as part of the EoV formula. Joshua answers: "Yes, so you had acne growing up and now you have scars as a result and that makes you look different from everyone else." David uses Paradoxical Acceptance / Humorous Magnification: "Well, thank you, wise guru. I'm enlightened now and see that I'm some kind of ugly monster who's going to scare all the women in the United States. But what you're saying is a lot of horseshit, and you know it." David's sarcastic tone belittles the negative voice's criticism, which also lightens up the absurd magnification that follows. He then quickly rejects the absurd and flows into healthy acceptance following this. David uses Straightforward Acceptance: "But it's true I'm not perfect, and I did have acne, and I do have scars, and there there's plenty of Hollywood movie stars who have some kind of fantastic looks." There's something very powerful about going from the absurd magnification into this healthy acceptance. It's kind of like framing the horrifying absurd with the moderately painful truth makes the truth a lot easier to accept. David uses Defense: "I have a lot about me that's attractive that I can be proud of, including my love, my humility. I've built a tremendous body that 99% of men would be the envy of, and 100% of women would love to touch and fondle." The self-compassion and focusing on specific strengths and pride in accomplishments seems to a very effective defense. There's also a little magnification and humor going on here too that works well. This is a lot stronger than a lot of defenses I see where people just say the thought is being distorted or unfair. David sets up the Counter-Attack Technique: "But there is one thing that's very, very unattractive about me that you didn't mention." Joshua asks: "What's that?" David uses the CAT: "That's that effing crappy voice in my head belittling me and constantly putting me down. And when I'm not listening to you, I'm feeling pretty damn happy. So, to quote the Buddha and Jesus alike, shut the f up." One of the things that seems to make the CAT really effective is when you can take the negative voice's criticism and throw it right back at the negative voice itself. In this case, the negative voice is the real unattractive quality. Awesome work David, and I'd love try out this EoV framework in the app. Best, Jason Roughly one week after the session with Joshua, Rhonda and David interviewed him for his reflections on the session and an update on how he's doing now. He said: I've reflected a lot on this, and what has changed for me. There were many things that impacted me, but positive reframing was a game-changer. For example, if I get anxious, I welcome the feeling, and tell myself, "This anxiety will help me with this project." I was getting a tattoo, and it hurt, so I told myself, "I'm glad it hurts. This pain protects my body." And, of course, people with leprosy lose the ability to feel pain, and the consequences are disastrous and tragic. He continued, I have become more accepting, and talk openly about my appearance. I've had the courage to face that fear. The theme of my life has been, "I'm not good enough." But now I remind myself that I've done all kinds of cool stuff. For example, I coached several people into the top five in the United States in power lifting. I'm way less self-critical now. I visited, and loved, the Tuesday group at Stanford. I didn't judge myself but just jumped in and did what I could do! We concluded the session with some Relapse Prevention Training, using Externalization of Voices to challenging his previous negative thoughts, including the thoughts he will have when he relapses. such as I'm not good enough. I'm a hopeless case. The therapy didn't work on me because I'm different. I'm a hopeless case. We used Externalization of Voices with role-reversals, and Joshua won "huge!" His final response was, "There's pain and joy in life. I'll feel joy and love!" Thank you for listening today. We hope you enjoy the intensely personal work with Joshua. Let us know what you think, and if it touched you if you've ever felt like you weren't "good enough!" Warmly, Joshua, Rhonda, and David
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Barofsky, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Hello there, Rhonda.
Hi, David, and welcome to all of our listeners. This is the Feeling Good Podcast, and we're on 427. And today we're concluding the podcast episodes with joshua gibson listening to the personal work that the two of you did and tell us how did you come about from being a guest on joshua's podcast philosophical weightlifting to doing personal work with him
Well, it was just a great hour with you, Joshua. It seemed very open and warm and vulnerable and real. And I got a chance to tell a couple stories from my clinical background.
practice that were pretty important in my career and my evolution and then at the end you said could I demonstrate how a couple of these techniques work and I said well sure if you give me a few of your negative thoughts and you gave me four of your negative thoughts and we got into it and evolved into an actual live therapy session and we didn't have a lot of time but we actually managed to cram the whole
session into 45 minutes rather than the two hours I usually spend, and it was just so rewarding and emotional, and it was just fantastic. And then someone on our team, our Feeling Great app team, did an analysis of it, and that will be included in the show notes as well. But instead of talking about it, we should probably dive in.
But let me ask you, what were you thinking there when we transitioned from the podcast into the live work?
Yeah. One, it was it was kind of nerve wracking for me to ask if we could we could do that. But I thought it'd be really fun because I listened to you on the psychiatry and psychotherapy podcast. You had a fantastic interview with Dr. David Pewter and you talked about imposter syndrome and vulnerability. And I was like, oh, that would be really fun to almost recreate that on my podcast as well.
And I went into it really nervous and kind of unsure. And honestly, having the ability to experience that firsthand just connected so many of the dots around the concepts you discuss at length in the podcast and in your books, which I found very helpful for myself. So I thought it was an absolute honor and really insightful and helpful to get a good sense of what those techniques really mean.
Awesome. Well, let's go ahead and dive right in. We hope you enjoy it. And then at the end, we'll have a follow-up. How is Joshua doing a week or however long later? We'll do a little brief relapse prevention training. So you're in, I think, for quite a treat. I love my work working with people because when you impact another person, you're impacting yourself.
And when you bring another person to joy and liberation, you bring yourself to the same thing. And so that's why I love what I'm doing. And this session was no exception at all. It was really... Huge. It was wonderful.
The last thing I think we talked a lot and I'm kind of a little nervous to ask this, but we talked a lot about team. Could we role play a little bit to give an idea to the listeners of what that is actually like?
Yeah, sure we can.
So if they haven't listened to a podcast, they would have a sense of what they could expect.
Yeah. Well, I've developed over 100 techniques to help people with negative thoughts that trigger negative feelings. And I can illustrate one of the most powerful. It was the first one I created because when I was going to Beck's seminars, he had about...
He talked about having these distorted thoughts, like with all or nothing thinking and self-blame and mental filtering and hidden should statements. And he had techniques that were innovative at the time, like examine the evidence or do an experiment to test what you're telling yourself or things of that nature. But they were a little intellectual and a little dry.
And I created this technique called the externalization of voices. It was a role-playing technique. And the therapist and patient become the same person, the patient. And one plays the negative voice in the patient's brain, and one plays the positive voice in the nation's brain. And then you go back and forth.
and see if the positive self can defeat the negative self, can crush these negative thoughts. And if you, let me jot down, if you have some negative thoughts, perhaps ones that you've had, that... I'll jot them down here, and then we can use them. If you want to do this, which will be fun, it may succeed, it may fail.
And part of my philosophy is fail as fast as you can, because the faster you fail, the faster you get to the technique that works. And there's so many techniques. But what negative thoughts have you had during moments of self-doubt, or have you?
I've had many. I would say that I struggle with... self-esteem and self-worth. And, uh, I have this overarching or overwhelming feeling that I won't be successful and I won't kind of live the life that I would like to live.
Um, you know, let me write those down. Okay. Number one, I won't be successful. Yes. And number two, I won't live the life. I want to live. And it's important, listeners, if you're upset, to write down your negative thoughts on a piece of paper. It doesn't seem like much, but it's the vitally important first step. Any others? Those are great. Those are my favorites, by the way.
We have all therapists in the Tuesday group. But I ask them, how many of you sometimes have the thought, I'm not good enough? And at least 90% of the hands go up. And these are theoretically successful mental health professionals.
And I ask, how many of you sometimes struggle pretty severely with believing those thoughts and feeling inadequate and anxious and depressed and down and unhappy, and all the hands go up? And I imagine of the people listening to your show, a good many of them can buy into this. I won't be successful, and I won't have the chance to live the life I want to live. Any others? Those are fabulous.
Yeah, related to intimate connections, I won't find love, like romantic love. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, we might have to have a separate session on that. We could record it, and then if you want to publish it, you could publish it. Oh, that'd be great. Because, you know, I've been puzzled about that, because here you are, this hunky, handsome, muscular, smart guy, a charming, warm fellow with dating problems.
And I would be so excited to uncork your champagne bottle and see what's hanging you up. Can you give me a rough idea of what happens that's impairing your dating? Because I would imagine women are throwing themselves at you constantly.
Yeah, I it's kind of hard to say on a podcast. I think I'm ugly. So I think I'm not attractive and worth being with.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, I love that. Uh-huh. Yeah, I'm not attractive. I've always had that thought, too, because when I was little, I was cross-eyed. I had to have surgery, and then I had siblings who had been adopted because my parents thought they couldn't have children.
And I had two sisters that were seven years older, but I didn't know that they were adopted and that I was the only naturally born one because I came along unexpectedly after my parents had given up and adopted three kids. And I think they thought I was spoiled or a brat or whatever. I probably was.
I mean, I don't know, but they used to just tease the hell out of me and called me like bag of bones because I was real skinny. And, you know, and I squinted. I still do. You know, I try to remember, see, my eyes are open. I can't open my eyes. But I used to feel pretty inadequate, I would say intensely inadequate in that way. And I had a fear of cameras up until two years ago.
Because whenever I would take a picture, I'd be squinting. And I had a crooked smile. And they would laugh at me and tell me I looked ridiculous. And I'm sure I did. And so that was something I had to kind of get over as well. So let's just work with these here. Before we challenge them with externalization of voices, let's do a little... you know, kind of paradoxical agenda setting.
And do these four thoughts, I won't be successful, I won't live the life I want to live, I won't find love, and I'm not attractive, are these thoughts upsetting to you?
They're very defeating. They feel like even if I were to intellectualize them and reject them, that it's just true regardless.
Yeah, that they're true. And do they make you feel sad and down?
Yeah, it makes me feel hopeless.
Yeah, hopeless, defeated. Do you feel anxious? How anxious do you feel?
I would say yesterday I felt probably like a 90 to 95 for various reasons, but I'd say it definitely contributes to I deal with anxiety quite a bit. A 95. How sad and down? I would say probably the same, 90, just thinking about the trajectory of my life and where it's going.
Do you feel guilty or ashamed?
Yes, I'd say I feel probably like 85, 90 with those as well. Okay, 85 to 90 on guilt and shame.
90. 90.
85.
90.
And how hopeless or discouraged?
I'd say 85. 85.
85. Let's see. How frustrated?
A little bit less. I'd say 70.
And how angry?
75.
Any other negative feelings?
I would say those are probably the overwhelming feelings, shame, embarrassment, hopelessness.
Sure. Now, yeah, I'm so sad to hear because these scores are really, really intense. And there is another point that we were talking about, because, you know, if the goal of our work is to reduce these feelings, then we want to know how severe they are.
And if I or maybe any of your listeners were to rate how you feel in these, let's see, nine dimensions, we would be way off because I would say, oh, this guy is a happy guy. He's got it all.
But in point of fact, your suffering inside is incredibly intense, almost beyond human understanding for someone to grasp just how profound your anxiety is and your sadness and your guilt and inadequacy, your loneliness, embarrassment and hopelessness and frustration and anger.
And I want you to know that when I hear that and hear what a wonderful person you are, I just like and admire you so tremendously. I feel sad that you're hurting this much inside. How how accurately am I kind of getting how you're thinking and feeling?
Yeah, I would say that that's very accurate. I. Yeah, I think like there's an aspect of like loneliness and maybe being understood and. Yeah. I know that people very close to me, like my best friends, I can talk to them and they'll empathize. But professionally, it's hard to hard to communicate that and feel authentic and be able to show up in a way that I'm actually feeling.
I feel like you have to wear a mask and put your best clothes on, so to speak. And that that makes it even more difficult. I would just rather tell someone like I am really struggling and doing the best I can.
Yeah. The profound, profound loneliness. Uh, yeah. The, uh, let me, uh, I kind of hate to push this and move rapidly, but I'll try that anyway. Suppose we work together really successfully, and at the end of our session you said, wow, that really knocked my socks off. What would happen? What would you be hoping for?
To kind of circle back to a talking point in the podcast, I'd just like to find more congruence between how I show up and then how I feel. And then for that to feel like it's enough and not that it needs to be different or it needs to change.
Right. So would that involve no longer believing these messages so strongly and no longer believing these negative feelings so strongly?
I'd say a majority of them, yes.
Yeah. Which are the ones that you might not want to let go of?
I think frustration is good because when I, you know, I've worked really hard on a lot of things for five, 10 years, and that frustration has pushed me to keep working on it.
Oh, I love that. Let me write that down here. In fact, let's do this with all of your feelings. The frustration, you say it's motivated me to work on myself. Yes. Yeah, and also... motivated me to work. Another good thing about frustration is that it shows you haven't given up. Right? Yep. Is that a good thing?
That's a great thing.
Yeah, haven't given up. Frustration was the hardest one for me to figure out what was good about it when I first developed positive reframing. And the second hardest one was hopelessness. What are some good things about your anxiety?
It does... Give me that ability to start working on something that I'm very fearful of. We talked about statistics and to tackle a big project. I feel very anxious that I'm not capable and prepared. But that anxiety on the other side of it is, well, I should do it to be able to. Or I could do it to be able to then learn it and understand it and become more proficient at it.
Yeah, yeah, I love that. I love that. I have that same thought, you know, every day. It's like a go-to thought. Like, I have to do something like... I had to check something in our bank balance, something like some financial thing. My wife takes care of things, and then my automatic thought, well, I'm not going to be able to figure out how to do this. And it seems very real.
I might put it off for a day or two. And any other good things about anxiety? It kind of motivates you to face your fears.
And it probably keeps me from doing anything that would actually be hurtful or like something that would actually like put me at risk. So it does keep me safe.
Yeah. Yeah. Is that important?
That's very important.
Is that real? That's very real. Is that important or is that powerful?
That's very powerful, yes.
Yeah, awesome. And then how about what's really beautiful and awesome about your sadness? In fact, there's three questions we can ask about each negative feeling. Why is this appropriate? How does it help me? And what does it show about my core values that's positive and awesome?
I would say the thing that overwhelmingly comes to mind is that I really care about other people.
Let me write that down. Maybe I can send you the list later. I don't know if you're writing any of these down. I'm not. It's highly desirable to write them down. If you have a piece of paper there, care about others, because this is so important, the things that you're saying here. Yeah, what else does the sadness show about you that's positive and awesome? How does it help you?
I would say it shows me that I have... high expectations that I can achieve something and can be successful at what I do and work toward, and that I'm just on one side of it or experiencing the side where I'm working toward that.
Yeah, that you have high standards, high expectations. Is that real? That's very real. Is that powerful?
It's very powerful.
Is that important?
It's very important.
What else does your sadness show about you that's... How does that help you? What are some awesome things about it, or why is it appropriate?
It's very important that I...
like experience sadness um because i can also experience and understand other people who are going through the same thing so my mom um is having a bunch of tests done to figure out why she's having certain symptoms and to be able to empathize with her um and kind of share my feelings about what she's going through is very important to me well yeah that is that a beautiful thing
Yeah, it's very beautiful.
Yeah, the sadness is the source of your compassion.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, that's really neat. How about guilt and shame?
Yeah, I would say guilt is... The thing I appreciate about it is that it shows me that I can do something else to... You know, I can live up to the expectations that I've set for other people and for myself. So I can accomplish real. I can have really big achievements and I can find success. I don't like shame as much. Shame just generally feels bad.
So I don't know how many positives I can find in that.
Yeah, well, as long as you found some for guilt, that's good enough. The inadequacy is really huge. What are some really awesome things about feeling inadequate?
It's kind of that same idea as guilt. It allows me to improve in areas that I feel like I have a lot of room to grow. So it shows me... You're honest. Yes. Yeah, that's exactly right.
Honest about areas to improve. And what are some other awesome things about inadequacy?
It's humbling. I think it allows me to keep a so-called level head and realize everyone's going through similar things, everyone's struggling, and that inadequacy is part of understanding that there are a lot of similarities.
Yeah, because you see, although you feel ugly, the other people will be perceiving you as this good-looking, hunky, successful, intimidating, smart guy, right? Yeah. Yeah. And then that could make them be hard to be with you because they would feel inadequate. And that your humility adds to your attractiveness. Do you see that? Yeah, that makes sense.
That there's a beautiful warmth about you, which is pretty awesome. What's really great about your loneliness?
It's allowed me to develop a lot of independence and allowed me to have so many experiences that I don't think I would have had if I wouldn't have felt lonely and sought out community and things that I think would help me develop as a person and become more capable.
Yeah, like right now. Yeah, that's exactly right. That's so cool. I love it. What's great about embarrassment and humiliation?
They don't sound very good. I would say they allow you to kind of function around other people in more socially desirable ways.
Is that important?
It's very important. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah, it's kind of lacking in the world these days, too, sometimes.
Yeah, I think that's right.
How about hopelessness? You're 85% hopeless. What could possibly be good about that?
I would say it's another driving force. It really pushes me to do everything in my power. prevent it, basically, to restore hope.
That's huge. What are some other cool things about hopelessness?
Kind of struggling to come up with something else.
Okay, well, this was the second hardest for me, and it took me like a month or two, and I used to have these Sunday hikes. I'm starting them up again. I can't go as far because I've developed low back pain when I walk, so I'm trying to figure out some way to get over that. Maybe I need to come to you for some back-strengthening exercises.
But we used to go six, eight miles, and I was up on this thing called Roos Ridge, and this woman was telling me that she was hopeless. I think she thought she wasn't, like, smart enough, and she's a really good-looking woman, but she thinks she's not very smart, and she's socially anxious, and she's afraid she'll have a date, and her mind will go blank, and then the fellow won't like her.
And I was asking her, well, what's great about hopelessness, and suddenly kind of popped into my mind. And the things, one of them was, does it show that you're a critical thinker? In other words, you're looking at a lot of failures in achieving what you want. Yeah. Is that important?
That's very important.
And also, does it protect you from disappointment?
Yeah, I think that would be one of the most important parts of it.
Yeah, yeah, and that's important. And then we're almost done with this, and then we'll get on to what you were asking for. But how frustrated would you want to feel? You say that's helped you in your, well, or like what are, again, do we write down frustration first? Oh, yeah, we've already done frustration. And then so we're down to angry at yourself. What's good about being angry with yourself?
I chose that I have, I think it shows also that I have high expectations and that I can see things through and be, I can, I can be successful. Um, and that anger is a part of like almost the friction of not, not, not achieving it, um, or being able to do it. Um, so it's kind of in line with frustration and anger is something that in my childhood I felt like was just
solely negative and solely kind of like used in a really kind of like aggressive judgmental way. And I think having it in this context is way more helpful.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Now let's see how many positives we've got here. Two, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, and then eleven, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16. And we've got 16 positives for all of these negative feelings. And we could add to this list, but we've got a pretty big list right now.
And are these things we've listed like embarrassment helps me function in socially desirable ways and hopelessness protects me from disappointment and loneliness has allowed me to develop independence and it has also motivated me to seek out the community of other people and learn new things and the frustrations motivated me to work hard and shows I haven't given up and
All these advantages, are they real?
They're very real, yes.
Are they powerful?
Incredibly powerful.
Are they important?
Very important, yes.
So then it would seem like our goal today might not be to get rid of them, press a magic button, have them all disappear because all these positives would disappear. Right. But would there be a lower level of these emotions that might preserve all those positives and allow you to feel less anxious and depressed and so forth?
Yeah, I would agree with that.
The anxiety is 95. If we had a goal for that today, how much anxiety would you want?
The number that comes to mind is around 20.
20, okay.
Is that enough? I think that's plenty, yes.
Okay. Your sadness is 90. How sad would you like to be today?
You know, I've experienced a little bit of sadness during our conversation when you relayed stories about people you've worked with and their life experiences. And that was really beautiful, actually, to do that on the podcast. I would say maybe a 10 or 15. 10 to 15, yeah.
Yeah, in fact, I know what you mean. Sometimes there's a healthy kind of sadness, and then there's an unhealthy kind of depression. But I sometimes think of sadness as celebration, to really be able to care and to connect with the suffering of other people, to be aware of it. It's the greatest gift of all to my way of thinking. The guilt is 85 to 90. How guilty would you like to be feeling?
I'd say that's probably 15 as well.
15, great. And then how inadequate? That's 90. What would be a really optimal level of inadequacy?
Like 10. Is that enough inadequacy? I think that's plenty. I think, yeah, I think that's plenty. Okay.
Okay. How lonely? That was 85.
I'd say 20. I'd say 20. I think loneliness is a good driver of kind of getting out and exploring the world.
20.
And how frustrated? That was 70.
20.
And angry at myself. That was 75.
Maybe 5. Anger doesn't feel as helpful.
Awesome. And so now we just did, first I did empathy. I'm going through the testing we did, empathy we did, paradoxical agenda setting we did, and now we're to methods. Which of these four thoughts would you like to tackle first? I won't be successful. I won't live the life I want to live. I won't find love. I'm not attractive.
I'd say I'm not attractive.
Okay. And then let's see how much you believe each of these when you're upset. How much do you believe I'm not attractive?
100%.
And then how much do I believe I won't find love?
I'd say that's like 90%.
90%. And how much do you believe I won't live the life I want to live?
That's probably 90% too.
And then how much do I believe I won't be successful?
It's like 85%.
Yeah.
Is this the first, you know, is all or nothing thinking, looking at things in black and white. Would this be an example of all or nothing thinking?
Yes.
And you're right on that. And imagine I'm like in fourth grade and you want to explain it to me why that is a distortion.
Because it's assuming that for all of the people who exist to perceive me, I'm saying that no one would find me attractive.
And then why is that unrealistic?
Because I would be assuming that people have the same... Preferences and standards. Yeah.
Yeah. And why is that not correct? Why is that erroneous?
People have people there, you know, individual differences, really powerful and very real. So I think everyone's, you know, everyone has their own preference and own thoughts.
Right. And then why is that thought unfair? Not only distorted, but unfair.
Yeah, it's an unrealistic standard.
Yes, uh-huh. And why is an unrealistic standard unfair?
Because, I would say, because it's untrue. So it's adhering to something that's untrue.
Yeah, but what's the impact of believing something that's untrue? Um...
Makes me, I'm not sure I have a good answer for that.
Okay. Well, that's okay. That's fine. And we could go through all ten dispersions, but we probably have enough ammunition here already. Now, we could start out with one of two techniques, the externalization of voices, which is a very aggressive technique.
Or the double standard technique, which is a little gentler technique, and then we could start with that and then go into externalization of voices for crunch time.
That sounds great.
Let's do that. Okay. Let's imagine that I am a friend of yours. We'll do the double standard technique in a role play format.
Okay.
And give me a name, not a current friend, but just say someone, you know, who's not one of your real friends, but this would be a friend.
Okay. Let's say Corey. Okay.
Corey, I'm Corey. And let's say that I look like you. I have all of your strengths. I have all of your weaknesses. I grew up in a similar home as you. In fact, I'm like a clone of yours or a long-lost identical twin. And I want to see how you would talk to me. So I have all your strengths. I have all your weaknesses. I got all the grades you got in school. I dropped out of school. I went back.
I've got this podcast that I'm doing, but I'm a dear friend and a different person. Could I talk to you for a minute, Joshua?
Yeah, of course.
You know, I have this problem. I just wanted to see what you think. I've been working really hard on my life and my podcast and my career and my coaching, and a lot of things are coming along pretty well for me, but I would really like to find... my partner, my mate, someone to share my life with, and I want to find love, and I'm telling myself that I'm just not attractive, not attractive enough.
What do you think?
I think you look great. I think you're a very attractive person.
Okay. Now, that helps me a little bit, but let me ask you this question now, Joshua, because I really want to believe what you just said, but I want to find out, are you being honest with me, or are you just blowing smoke in my face and trying to cheer me up with some fake crap?
Yeah, I'm being honest with you.
Oh, really? Yeah. Okay, so if that is true for me, and I look exactly like you, would that be true for you as well? Yes. Okay. Was that helpful to you? Yes, it was helpful. Okay. And right now, how much do you believe I'm not attractive? On the zero to 100, what your real belief is.
Maybe 50.
Oh, great. That's good. Now we'll crank into the more aggressive thing. Okay. And this time, your name is Joshua, and you know what my name is? What's that?
Huh? What's that?
Joshua.
Okay. Okay.
And one of us will be the negative Joshua and one will be the positive Joshua.
Okay.
And you can start out in either role that you want.
Okay. I'll start off as the negative Joshua.
Yeah. OK, great. Oh, this is wonderful. Yeah. And I'm glad we're recording this because you can listen to the recording later. So you're you're going to be the negative one. Yes. OK, so you speak in the second person, you. And I'll speak in the first-person eye. Well, let me just try it the other way around first. I'm going to be the negative Joshua, and you be the positive Joshua.
Okay.
And I want you to see if you can defeat me. Then we'll do a role reversal.
Okay.
That sounds great. Could I talk to you for a minute, Joshua?
Yes, of course.
You know who I am.
I do know who you are.
that negative voice in your brain. And I didn't want to upset you or anything because I know you're having a lot of fun with that con artist, Dr. Burns. But I just wanted to tell you that you should just face the truth. I'm talking now about the ultimate truth. You're just not attractive.
I didn't mean to hurt your feelings or anything, but that's the, as the Buddha said so many years ago, that's the effing truth about you.
Yeah. I think that's untrue. I think you're just being very critical for no reason and just trying to bring me down.
Okay. Who won that?
I think I won that.
Okay, big or small?
I'd say big. Big or huge? I'd just say big.
Okay, great, I agree. I thought it was excellent, but it's not yet huge, and we're going to keep doing role reversals until we get to huge. Now, either this time you'll attack me, and when you respond with externalization of voices, there's three main strategies you can use, although you can throw in any technique, actually. But one is self-defense, which is what you used.
Another is called the acceptance paradox, where you win by finding truth in the statement. And the third is called the cat or counterattack technique. And you were hinting at that. Actually, that's where you attack that voice in your head. And then another technique you can use is one called be specific, where you transform vague criticisms into what are we talking about.
So you be the negative, and we'll see if we can get up to huge. I can't guarantee it. We might have to go back and forth a number of times working together. But we're pretty close, so hit me with that.
You know, Joshua, you... You're disfigured, and because of that, you're unlovable. And that's an unavoidable thing you're going to have to deal with.
And can you tell me in what way I'm disfigured?
Yeah, so you had acne growing up, and now you have scars as a result, and that makes you look different from everyone else.
Okay. Well, thank you, wise guru. I'm enlightened now and see that I'm some kind of ugly monster who's going to scare all the women. in the United States. But to quote the Buddha again, what you're saying is, it's a lot of horseshit, and you know it.
But it's true, I'm not perfect, and I did have acne, and I do have scars, and there's plenty of Hollywood movie stars who have some kind of fantastic looks. But it's just kind of a bullshit thing that you're saying because I have a lot about me that's attractive, that I can be proud of, including my love, my humility.
I've built a tremendous body that 99% of men would be the envy of and 100% of women would love to touch and follow. But there is one thing that's very, very unattractive about me that you didn't mention.
What's that, Joshua?
That's that effing crappy voice in my head belittling me and constantly putting me down. And when I'm not listening to you, I'm feeling pretty damn happy. So to quote the Buddha and Jesus alike... Shut the F up.
So who won? You won. Big or small? It was big. Big or huge? It was massive.
Yeah, right. And how did I get to massive?
There was a lot of acceptance there. There was acknowledgement of things that you've done, I've done. And it was just... felt so authentic and so um so okay with you know the way things are and um controlling the controllables and um not letting that get in your way and be something that's like defeating and draining
Yeah, I used all three, self-defense, self-acceptance, and the counterattack technique, and be specific.
Yeah, that's right.
Use those four strategies. As an aside, this is getting a little long, but we're actually close to the end. But, I mean, if you like this and want it to be published, you could do a part one and a part two.
Yeah, actually, that, you know, I just checked the time, and very sadly, I do need to end this conversation and... It's been fantastic, and I don't want to say it's been a dream, but to be able to talk to you and experience this, David, has been a tremendous opportunity.
You don't have three minutes or two minutes?
Okay, I can do two minutes, yeah.
Okay, so I'll speed it up and bring it to conclusion. Okay. So we've beaten that one down. I'm not attractive. Let's see if you can do it now, okay? Okay. You know, face the facts, Joshua. You're just not attractive. Burns is just trying to bullshit you. It's just a fact. You're all scarred up. You look like horrific. If women don't pass out, they'll vomit.
Yeah. Well, even if he is trying to bullshit me, it's okay to have what are thought of as flaws. And there are plenty of things that I have going for me that provide a lot of richness and value to my life. And those... make me more attractive to people and provide me with a sense of meaning and really allow me to then help and contribute to the lives of other people.
So regardless of any superficial appearances, that doesn't define me as a person.
Who won?
I'd say that I won. Big or small? I'd say big. Big or huge? I'd say huge.
I thought that was a huge one. Okay. But I want to remind you, maybe beat me on that one, but you won't be successful. And that's just a fact.
Yeah, well, I could fail at what I'm currently doing, but that doesn't mean I'm not going to be successful in any other host of possibilities and avenues of becoming a professional or providing for a family or contributing to the lives of my family and friends. So defining success in a very small way, I might fail.
But broadly, I think I'm going to live a life that I ultimately want to live because I'm working hard at it and I have a lot of things going for me.
Yeah, but you're not going to live the life you want to live. I mean, that's just a fact. You're going to live a real shitty life.
Yeah, I think that's untrue. I might struggle and I might have to work hard to kind of get out of that sometimes. But I think ultimately I'm going to be happy and I'm going to be fulfilled and I'm going to be surrounded by people that I love and people who love me. And that is worth more than any superficial success or failure.
Who's winning?
I think I'm winning. Big or small? I'd say I'm winning big. Big or huge? Huge.
Yeah, awesome. And now let's just get the final thing. How anxious are you feeling at this moment on zero to 100?
Yeah, I don't feel anxious at all. Let's say zero.
Sad.
Zero.
Guilty.
Zero.
Inadequate.
Zero.
Lonely.
Zero. Embarrassed. Zero, surprisingly, for doing this on a podcast.
Yeah, hopeless.
Zero.
Frustrated.
Zero. And angry. Zero. I think that would be a negative if it could be.
Great. And I have two homework assignments for you, and then we can go and you can send me some follow-up. But if there's any gorgeous, lonely women hearing this podcast, you know who to contact. We've got someone you might be interested in. And then the second thing would be to ask people a question, either by sending them your photo or talking to them in person.
And what you would say to them is, I'm doing a special survey on how people look and what people find attractive and unattractive. And I'm wondering if you could tell me or write down three things about my appearance that you don't like and three things about my appearance that you do like. Okay. Would you do that? Because then you'll find out what people like and dislike about the way you look.
I'd love to do that. Yeah. Well, this has been great. Thank you for giving the extra moments. But I wanted to tie things up with a bow at the end. And it's just been an extraordinary experience for me. And let's not make it the last connection. Not at all.
I'll be sure to reach out. I'm going to share everything that you have worked on, all the projects you have going on, all the all the products. And I hope people really do check out the podcast you produce. Check out the books you've written and check out the app. Feeling great. It's been an absolute honor. You're a legend. And, you know, you've taught me more in this two hour podcast than ever.
I think almost anyone else has ever taught me about just being, you know, so warm and caring.
Thank you. My pleasure. It's been awesome for me, too. Okay. Bye-bye. Thank you, Dr. Burns. Yeah. Bye-bye, Joshua. Hello, Rhonda. Oh, well, let's see. This is just the conclusion to the session. This is a week or so later. This is the follow-up. So welcome back, Joshua. And I'm eager to see your reflections back on that session. Plus, a lot has happened since then.
You came to our Tuesday group, which is great. Training used to be limited to, you know, people, mental health professionals like clinical psychologists and like that. But now we've opened up to all, you know, to coaches, to all types of health professionals. So I'd like to see what your experience was there in the group. It sure looked like you were doing great.
And how have you been feeling since the live work? What were the take-home messages? You know, what did you learn? Because in my experience, you know, no one can be happy all the time, and life is filled with bumps for all of us. And so those negative feelings have a way of creeping back in. And the techniques that work for you the first time will –
for the most part, work for you for the rest of your life, but you've got to know what is the thing that you learned and what is the method that turned whatever that key distortion was around. So why don't you tell us how you're doing? I'm going to center my picture a little bit here. There we go. And yeah, so tell us what's up. Good to see you.
Yeah, it's great to see both of you as well. David, you're looking handsome as always. And Rhonda, you're looking incredible as well. Thank you. Tell us more. The one thing – I've reflected on this quite a bit and I've given it a lot of thought knowing that we were going to discuss it. And on my end, like what has it changed for me?
And has there been something that's been overwhelming enough to like, oh, wow, I can see this as a difference in my life. And the first thing I want to say – is the importance of actually experiencing the techniques.
So I've listened to over 250 episodes of the podcast and actually engaging in them with you, David, was incredibly insightful and almost like unlocked some secret to it, which is the positive reframing component for me has been a game changer.
And as someone, um, in graduate school, someone who has, you know, full-time job, a graduate assistantship, and then a course load on top of that, plus whatever research and work, other work obligations, seeing anxiety as a positive has been very helpful from just not seeing it as overwhelming and disruptive. Um, and seeing it as something like, Oh, this is good.
I'm glad it's here because now this project I need to work on, um, I'll actually start working on it rather than just being anxious and wondering like why I'm overwhelmingly feeling anxious. I think being able to pin those emotions, um, to something and saying it's having an impactful or important role and getting me to do that or accomplish that or, or, or see it through. Um,
has been incredibly helpful. And if I can just relate a short story, I was getting a tattoo the other day and I kind of thought to myself like, wow, I wish this didn't hurt so much. And then I reframed it as I'm glad this hurts because if it didn't, that would probably be a big, a big issue if I could just get stabbed with a needle and not feel anything.
Um, so I thought that that specific aspect was really impactful for me as reframing anxiety and sadness as, as things that have
usefulness and utility now let me just ask you a quick question here because i'm trying to write this down as fast as i can and why was i happy that the tattoo hurt so i i'm happy that the tattoo hurt because it means that i have this protective function of of pain which if i didn't have that i could be i could be in real trouble oh yeah yeah i see what you mean absolutely yeah the pain the pain is protecting me that's exactly right
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, aren't there people who don't experience pain because of a condition or some, you know, whatever syndrome they have? And that's dangerous.
They used to isolate them and put them on an island all by themselves. What was it? I'm trying to think. Where you can't, you lose the ability to feel pain in your body. Do you remember what it is? Anybody?
I don't know off the top of my head. No, I do not know. That's a medical doctor question. I used to know.
Well, there is some thing. And then what happens is people eventually, they lose their hands because they get damaged because they can't feel pain. It was a... They kept them in like leprosy. Yeah, they called it leprous colony. Leprosy, that's the name of the disease. And, you know, it's pretty horrible. So that's a neat analogy.
Tell us more about what the live work was like for you and how you've been feeling since.
Yeah, I would say it's also I've noticed that, you know, different points in my life I've been able to be more accepting of certain qualities and features that I have. And, you know, if people people have gotten to this point, they've listened to our conversation and being able to.
talk about how i feel about my my looks and appearance openly like that um that was actually something i've never really done and then oh wow yeah yeah and i would always skirt around it so i'd had therapists in the past where you know maybe i'd mention it and they would kind of allow me to skirt around it a little bit and feel comfortable not really divulging all the details um
Being able to directly kind of be face-to-face with that, so to speak, kind of made it so I feel comfortable telling other people that more casually now. So I was talking to a friend and kind of mentioned like, oh, yeah, like I've had trouble accepting my appearance, thinking I'm ugly or whatever it is.
And it's like that's reduced the initial inability to talk about it or the shock of having to kind of come face-to-face with it. So I found that pretty powerful.
Do you think that could be an asset in dating?
Oh, incredibly so, because I don't I don't really think about my appearance now. I just think about like with this, you know, if I want to talk to someone who I would be interested in, do we connect as people? Not am I attractive enough to be to warrant a relationship or to have?
Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. You can focus on on the other person.
That's right.
Yeah. Yeah. But do you ever say things like, I don't know if you've ever would want to lower your standards to someone as ugly as me. Sometimes when you accept yourself, you discover the problem was never the way you were, but your shame about it and that negative inner dialogue and that once you accept yourself,
your flaws, they become kind of an asset, something that makes you actually more desirable to other people.
Well, and I've noticed that when I had that, when I would hold on to that flaw too much and try to hide it, I would be very judgmental towards others.
Oh, yes. Oh, I know exactly what you mean. Yeah. During my nerdy days, I was like that too. And then once I was taught how to stop being such a nerd to where suddenly women were interested in me, I thought, wow, women are really a lot more beautiful than I thought.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, listening to you, Joshua, and reading the transcript of your personal work, it seemed like there's a theme of I'm not good enough. And it just seems like such a universal theme. I know that I did personal work with David and Matt May with that exact thought. And so I know firsthand and I know a lot of therapists and people in general have that too.
And what was it like for you to work around that theme? Yeah.
Yeah, it's it's liberating from the perspective of I've been able to do a lot of really cool stuff. And I like I've been able to, you know, develop a great podcast and I've been able to kind of pursue my education. I've been able to coach people to, you know, top five or whatever in the nation. And it's not that I'm defined by those things, but it's really cool.
I've been able to do it and then know that I'm capable of doing that instead of... It's like this weird thing where all I wanted to do was get a PhD. And when I got into the program, I could feel myself diminishing it. Like, oh, well, this one doesn't count. And being able to address that not good enough component and be like, actually... it is, it is good enough.
You know, it is like, it is what I need and what's right for me. Um, that's been really liberating. I guess that's like the word of it, but it just feels good. Um, Rather than kind of that imposter syndrome. And it's not that I don't feel that.
I mean, when I was when I great David graciously allowed me to be in the Tuesday group and I felt that's the immediate sensation I had was I'm just why am I here? Who am I? What have I done? What do I know? But instead of giving into that, it's like, OK, I'll just contribute where I can and listen to people who know a lot and, you know, see what see what it's all about.
And I think that was like, what was it like for you in the Tuesday group? What did you think of it?
I loved it personally because I think going like a deep dive into a technique, which was the achievement addiction and then in watching you and Jill role play and then talk through different scenarios or how it could be, you know, reversed and then having everyone break out and then practice themselves, I thought was very, very insightful.
And, you know, as someone who really appreciates like a lot of context and information, I felt like I was you know, a lot more understanding of something like achievement addiction after the fact. So I thought it was fantastic. And I can only imagine how beneficial it would be if you covered, you know, all of the techniques or, or, you know, as many as you could come up with really.
So I thought it was a great addition to.
Who was your small group leader?
Oh, you remember? I can't remember her name. I do remember there's a woman who was Australian in the group. Oh, yeah. And then there's a guy who was a general, like, I think it was a physician, like a general practitioner. And I think maybe Libby might have been a woman who was also in the group. But the leader, her name just escapes me.
Was that fun also, the small group? Did you like the small group?
Oh, it was great. It was so much fun.
Yeah. Yeah, it's great having you in the group. Let's see, I had a bunch of questions that my mind went blank, but there are several vitally important questions we have for you, and Rhonda will now verbalize them.
Well, how was it for you identifying the distortions in your negative thoughts?
So I thought, again, it's interesting because I've seen a therapist for months and months and months, and I've had one prior to the one I'm currently seeing. And I felt like we never really were able to sink our teeth into the distortion that I have. There's this idea of like acceptance and acceptance.
I even ended up listening to a book that she recommended about acceptance, like the heart of the Buddha or something. I don't remember exactly what it was called, but I never felt like there was always a gap between being accepting and like cognitively knowing I should accept myself. And that was because I, I don't think we really had any like techniques or really practice make it stick.
If that makes sense.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
So like actually engaging with it with you, David, and engaging with the distortions really helped me feel what that was actually like versus just like intellectualizing it.
Yeah, that's right. Well, let's do some of that right now. You know, we don't have time and the need for a whole other session, but let's do some relapse prevention training using externalization of voices. And we'll mix two kinds of negative thoughts together. You had four originally.
Give me a couple more of your negative thoughts, old ones, ones we did in the session or any other ones that you've had, like I'm an imposter or what. Just give me a couple of those.
Okay. I will say I'm not good enough is one that probably is like an overarching.
No, I'm only looking for a distorted thought.
Okay. Okay.
That was very sharp. I'm not good enough. I'll write that one down. Yeah, good.
I think I'm hopeless is one that I often come back to. That's like a general distorted thought.
Okay, that's great. And then you'll have a relapse at some point, and all your negative thoughts and feelings will temporarily come back with the same intensity that they have in the past. And then what are some of the negative thoughts you'll have? Like this shows the therapy didn't work, the therapy was just a band-aid. Give me some of that stuff.
Yeah, and right before I do that, I want to say the fact that I'm having a harder time thinking of distorted thoughts now probably speaks to our experience together. It's like, ah, I haven't really thought about that stuff since.
Yeah, right.
So I would say, yeah, the treatment didn't work.
Yeah, yeah.
It didn't work on me. I'm different. There's something special about me that won't allow it to change my thoughts.
Oh, yeah, those are great. Yeah. And now Rhonda and David will be called Joshua, will be the negative Joshua. And you can be the positive Joshua. And we'll take turns attacking you with these four thoughts. And we'll see who won. And if we need, we'll do role reversals and so forth. Which one do you want to?
Can I just confirm what the thoughts are?
Yeah, I'm not good enough. Number two, I'm hopeless. Number three, this relapse, you know, that will come in the future shows that the therapy didn't work on me. And, you know, it didn't work because I'm different. So these techniques can't help me. And I love these because they're unique to you, but they're also almost everybody has these kinds of thoughts.
And when you have someone else see someone else think of them, you say, oh, gosh, that's so irrational. But when you have them yourself, you think, oh, this is really true. So which one do you want us to hit you with first?
I would like to start with the thoughts about, oh, this therapy or this treatment wouldn't work.
Yeah. Okay. You want Rhonda to hit you with that?
Yeah. I think she would hit harder.
Yeah.
I do hit really hard, Joshua. And I hate to be mean, but I do have a mean streak. And I just want you to know that this therapy didn't really work on you.
And the fact that you're depressed today proves it. Say that.
And the fact that you're depressed today, it proves the therapy didn't work on you.
Yeah. Well, I understand that I could be depressed and feel down at some point. And, you know, I'm okay with that because I think there are a lot of positives that come from feeling down and feeling sad. And... You know, kind of in knowing that, I also know that eventually I'm going to feel better because things tend to work like that. Like I felt bad in the past and I've felt better afterward.
So while that's true, I don't think it's, you know, reason enough for me to identify myself as someone who's just going to be depressed or going to be sad.
So who won that, the positive Joshua or the negative attacking Joshua?
I would say that I won that.
Did you win it small or large?
I felt like it was large.
Was it large or huge?
I mean, I felt like it was huge. I think if I told myself that, I'd be very convinced.
Yeah, it sounded huge to me too.
Great. Yeah, great job, folks. And now I know that Rhonda version of you, you beat her down. But you're not going to be able to beat me down because you see the fact is that you are hopeless. And the fact that you've slipped back and you're feeling down now proves that. And I didn't want to upset you or anything, but I just want you to know that you're going to be hopeless.
You're going to feel like this for the rest of your life. And you know it. You can feel it.
Yeah. Yeah. maybe I will be hopeless and maybe I will be hopeless for the rest of my life. And, you know, I guess that's something I can live with and something I can be okay with. Um, and, um, regardless, I still get to, I still get to do the things that I love to do and still get to, to be a part of a community of great people that I have, you know, next to me. Um,
So even if I feel hopeless, I can still share experiences with people and still share my life with them.
Great. Who won that one?
I think I won.
Big or small?
I didn't feel as confident in that one.
Yeah, right. And part of the problem was that you agreed to something. Maybe I will be hopeless for the rest of my life, but I can still function as a hopeless, pathetic, miserable creature. And it wasn't exactly the same as joy and happiness. So let's try a rule reversal. You hit Rhonda first and then hit David. You be the negative and we'll be the positive.
Okay. Joshua, I know you, uh, have been feeling hopeless and that feeling's never going to go away because you're just not really, uh, worth having any hope. You just, it's just, it's something that you're never going to encounter.
Wow. That's pretty mean. And that's, that makes me feel really sad that you're saying that to me. Um, actually I, I have to say that I'm kind of a person that feels sad every once in a while.
I tend toward feeling depressed and, um, I do feel sad when things do sometimes when events lead me to feel sad or, you know, every once in a while I even wake up feeling sad for no kind of, no reason whatsoever. And I know that I have overcome that sadness in the past and I feel confident that I will overcome it in the future. And I, There's always pain in life. I can't avoid it.
That's what happens. And there are also moments of joy and utter happiness. And while I don't look forward to feeling hopeless, it does feel sad. It hurts. I know that I'm going to get to the other side of it and feel joy and love because, you know, I'm hanging out with really cool people and I'm doing really cool things and I'm reaching the goals that I have in my life. So who won that?
I thought you won that.
Really? Was that big or large, small or large or huge?
No, just two, big or small.
Big or small?
I'd say big.
Big or huge?
I would say huge. And the reason why I would say that is I connected with, maybe I tend to feel this way, or maybe this does come up for me often. Yeah. And that acceptance of it not being permanent, and then also there are great things they get to be involved with and accomplish and do. That really could, for me, put a really nice spin on it.
You want to hear another version? That was a beautiful version. You want to hear a different style? That sounds great. Hit me with it.
All right, Joshua. Here's the... cold, hard truth. You're always, yeah, I love truth.
Yeah. And you're a philosopher and I'm sure you'll tell it like it is to sock it to me, big guy.
Yeah. So you're just, you're meant to be hopeless. There's no way you're ever going to experience any form of hope. And that's just the burden you have to bear.
Okay, well, thank you for reminding me of that. I can always count on you when I'm lonely to get on my shoulder and say some nasty things in my ear. But the fact is I'm not at all hopeless. I have felt like that on times, and I've felt joyous at times, and my feelings change all the time, just like everyone's feelings change. But I have a much bigger problem than hopelessness. What's that?
Listening to your bullshit. Cut the F up. Yeah.
I thought that was great.
Yeah. And it's just a little different style. And that's called the counterattack technique. And it's just intended to remind ourselves that the problem is never some...
scar on my face from my acne or the fact that I'm having a bad mood or that I lost a weight lifting competition or whatever but it's our thoughts and it's talking to ourselves in a really mean spirited way like here's another one let's do the double standard Joshua I'll be a clone of Joshua and a dear friend of yours, but I look like you. I went to all the same schools.
I'm the same, you know, exactly the same, but a different person. Could I talk to you for a minute, Joshua? Yeah, of course. Right now, I'm feeling down and kind of hopeless. What would you say to me? Does that mean I am hopeless and I'll be hopeless for the rest of my life?
No, I don't think you're going to be hopeless for the rest of your life. I think it's just a feeling that you're having. And it's not at all reflective of who you are, not at all reflective of what you've done, not at all reflective of your background, your upbringing, any of that. I think it's just a transient thing you're going to experience.
And eventually, you're going to be out of that and into greener pastures.
Now, is that true, or are you just bullshitting me to try to make me feel good? I like what you're saying, but is that absolutely true?
It's absolutely true, 100%.
It's absolutely true that I won't be feeling this way all the time?
That's true.
Oh, awesome. I like that.
Yeah. That was great.
Okay, let's do the last two, and then we'll be out of here. It's your turn, Rhonda.
Okay. Josh, Joshua, you know, sorry to go back to my mean streak, but I just want to remind you that you are not good enough.
Yeah. Well, what, what specifically isn't good enough?
Okay.
Yeah. Yeah. I would, I just curious because, um, if, if I don't know, then there's something I can't work on or, or, or change. Um, And if I know, and I don't want to change it, then that's, that's perfectly okay too.
Well, so who won that?
I won that.
Was that small or large?
I think it was large. Large or huge? Huge. Because when I know there's something specific, I, I feel like I have the power to change it. Um, And to relate this just to weightlifting a little bit, I like to look at those problems in the same way. It's like if I know why we're not making progress or seeing a result, I can change it and I can have a hand in that.
If you're just saying this is bad, that doesn't tell me, it doesn't give me a bunch of information. If you just say it's good too, it doesn't give me a bunch of information. It's like what specifically is good about it, what specifically is bad or could be changed.
Yes, I loved, loved, loved that answer.
Thank you.
And you know what the Buddha said recently?
What's that?
He said you can either study Buddhism or weightlifting, and it's the exact same thing.
I'll have to put that quote on my podcast.
Yeah, right. Is there anything else we can hit you with? Oh, you're different.
Yeah.
Joshua, you're different. So the treatment didn't work and, you know, you're screwed for life. Face it, there's some terrible defect.
Yeah. Well, I mean, personally, I like being different. I think it makes the world a more interesting place. And I think that difference is going to allow me to kind of stand out and be a really valuable part of, you know, the world. the people I coach and the friends and family that I have. Um, and I don't think that means the treatment isn't going to work because I'm different.
Um, I just think it means that I have a unique skillset and, and, uh, ability to, to kind of be a part of the communities I'm in. So, yeah, I think, I think it's going to work.
Who won?
I won.
Big or small?
I'd say big.
Big or huge?
I'd say huge.
Yeah. Great. Wonderful. Is there anything left? Anything we can hit you with?
Well, I think what I'm really appreciative of and what I found very useful is that I don't know if I had heard the relapse prevention training before.
uh like example on the podcast so to experience it actually was very very helpful because those thoughts about the treatment not working are the exact same as the thoughts that preceded the treatment about myself yeah they're no different and they're using the same tools and techniques to say like uh this isn't really like something i have to take as truth at face value yeah
Thank you. It's always so great talking to you and working with you. I had a question that I promised myself to ask you. When you're coaching people who are probably, let's say, I guess the majority of them on some level are trying to get into weightlifting and improving their bodies and improving their strength, and they need coaching, a lot of the coaching you do is you're
immense amount of technical knowledge involving methods frequency which techniques for which muscles nutritional health general kind of issues how much of what you do has to do with emotional issues and struggles that the people are are going through i've so it's kind of it's it's really um
And I think it's important that you brought that up because when I first started coaching, I focused on kind of the sets and reps and performance. And now I'm just so people focused that like the performance matters. If I'm coaching, say, coaching Danny Myers, she placed fifth in the nation twice in a row. So last year she was fifth. This year she was fifth. Performance definitely matters.
But how she feels like. Per as a person matters first. And then we can layer on the means and methods because that stuff's just I mean, it's it's kind of like stress. It's stimulus response. You do something, you get a response. But making sure the person who's carrying that out is cared for and taken care of, to me, is the most important thing. Yeah.
I haven't always been like that, but I think the resources you put out, David, the resources great people like Stephen Hayes have put out and all the kind of the psychologists I've listened to and read about. It's reminded me that, you know, people are at the heart of this and then performance is just kind of like an adjunct to that. So I would say it's I'd say it's very, very important.
Well, we'll look forward to learning more from you as you learn more about the team techniques and how to use the five secrets of effective communication for empathy and positive reframing and then using externalization of voices. They'll say, man, I've got this kick-ass weightlifting coach and he uses empathy and externalization of voices. What techniques are those? I haven't heard of those yet.
Oh, those are the most important if you really want to achieve greatness. I love it. It'll be fun to see how your philosophy and methodology evolve. And it's just been a joy to get to know you a little bit and to work with you and to see your inner self and to admire your work. Your enthusiasm, your energy, your warmth, your openness. It's just been a tremendous pleasure and an honor and a treat.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, thank you both so much. It's an honor. David, you're a role model to so, so many. And Rhonda, you're an absolute great host and contributor. Much appreciated.
Thank you so much. And I really appreciate how open you were and how willing you were to be vulnerable with everyone because I think your vulnerability really showed.
Yeah, it's got to see some people in athletics make a huge impact. And certainly it's nice to have that athletic ability as kind of a platform, but how many use it as a boomerang to get up to a higher level and touch people who aren't weightlifting, but they will still love you and learn from you and and appreciate you and benefit from your struggles and your warmth and your openness.
And that stuff is just, you can't replace.
And let me know if you ever come to California so I can use my matchmaking skills.
Yeah. And ladies, by the way, if you're looking for an awesome hunk, Move past because the offer won't be there indefinitely.
Thank you both.
This has been another episode of the Feeling Good podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.