Dr. Rhonda Barofsky
Appearances
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
But when you're trying to control somebody's thinking and say, oh, you're not allowed to say that the word soul and the abstract concept has no meaning to you, that's reckless. Well, what did Walt Whitman say? You say I'm reckless very well. I'm reckless a thousand times. You remember when Walt Whitman said that, Rhonda or Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I just made it up. He made similar neat comments like, do I contradict myself? And I contradict myself a thousand times. That's something he really said. But, um, You know, I think that freedom of speech is precious and it's important to my value system as well.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
But at the same time, when you attack me like that and tell me I'm not allowed to say, you know, to speak my heart and to speak what I believe and what I think... It's kind of cool because it stirs up controversy and then people want to say, oh, Burns must be horrible. I want to go and listen to his podcast, too. And so our audience grows that way. So in a way, you're kind of helping us.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
But whatever your religious beliefs are, I can respect that. But I don't appreciate personally being told that my spiritual beliefs and my intellectual beliefs are reckless. I'm not trying to protect people from my thinking or from anyone's thinking. But my dad was the same way.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
He didn't even want me to go to Amherst College because he thought, well, you know, they'll take your religion away from you and turn you into a communist, that kind of thinking. And I resented it then, and I resent it now.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, I'm being more honest now because I'm elderly and half-demented. My wife says I'm old enough now to speak my mind. So I'm trying to do that a little bit more often. I mentioned in my thing, in my response in the show notes, that when I wrote Feeling Good...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I had a chapter on Consumer's Guide to Antidepressant Drugs, and I had that in there because I knew that a lot of my readers were taking antidepressants, and I wanted them to be able to look up each one and see the side effects, the dangerous effects, and so forth. But I knew at the time... And this was in the mid to late 1970s.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Okay, cool. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I could see very well that the chemicals called antidepressants did not, in fact, have any meaningful antidepressant effects above and beyond their placebo effects. But I didn't put that in the book.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And the reason was I didn't want to pull the rug out from under anyone because I knew a lot of people took antidepressants and a third of them got a lot of improvement after taking antidepressants, which they wrongly attributed to the antidepressant. It was actually due to their expectation of improvement.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Their thinking, their hope brought them the improvement because if you look at the literature, the world literature comparing antidepressants with placebo pills, the differences are not meaningfully different. Statistically, maybe every now and then, but not clinically. But I didn't want to put that in there because I didn't want to hurt anybody's feelings. Now I'm older.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I'm being less political. I'm saying more what I believe and let the chips fall where they may.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Not be as smart.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah. There was a lot of that when I grew up. Even different brands of Lutheranism we looked down on. Like the Missouri Synod. We were some other synod. And there was always about who's thinking is superior and who's thinking is inferior. And it's addictive.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah. That's the cause of war.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Some children were born, were raised to believe that anyone Christian or Jewish is bad and needs to be killed. Right? Right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, anyway, I think we've given this one its due, and thanks for putting us on the hot seat. I don't think you gave us your name, but whoever you are, you can put us on the hot seat any time you like because that stirs up a lot of really good thinking, and we appreciate the chance.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
sometimes to be in a defensive posture rather than, you know, we love the praise, so much praise that you all send to us as well. But we want to take the yin with the yang, I guess. We do. And I don't have no idea what yin and yang mean, but it sounded so good. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Great. What did we do in the last ten minutes?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Good, yeah. I think people have enjoyed these podcasts about philosophy. Is there such a thing as a self or a soul or a personality? We'll get a little bit more into some of that today.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
We'll let you guys go first again, but I'll set you up with a bit of a hint. It's probably not necessary, but this fellow is asking us to help him with his procrastination. Right? Right. He's asking us to be wise experts who are going to tell him the answer of how to make a commitment. So I'll let you guys go first.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, right. I mean, he's someone who's asking for help. Do you have any advice on how I can overcome my procrastination? Do you have any advice on how to prioritize doing homework and being more disciplined? He's asking us to help him with this. So we'll let you guys have first shot at it, and then I'll give you my answer. Or I'll go first if you prefer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Oh, it's very important to me, Doctor. Just show me how to do it, because I can't seem to make myself accountable. And I know you have the secret for that, because I've read your Yelp ratings. I just know you're going to help me with this. I asked my mother, and she couldn't explain to me how I could make myself accountable.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
But I told her, don't worry, Mom, I'm going to see Matt, and he's going to give me the answer. And if he doesn't, Rhonda will.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Sure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Oh, okay, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Or you could just decide not to do the written exercises. That's the true paradox. But I love what you both said. And it's just so easy for shrinks to get sucked into helping and rescuing people. And there's going to be an article coming out in the next New England Journal of Medicine. And it's such an important article. They're also going to headline it in the Archives of General Psychiatry.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Nice. And they have found records going back several thousand years of all the kind of shrinks and spiritual experts who have tried to help people become more accountable. And 1,400 schemes have been attempted by 72,000 therapists or spiritual gurus on 14 million people. And they were able to calculate the exact success rate.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Correct. Absolutely. And I love both of your answers because you're not getting hooked into trying to help. Ultimately, it's his decision. And to answer, oh, you could make a schedule or get someone to help you is putting him down as if he couldn't think of those obvious things himself. But the real reason is like what you said there was brilliant, Rhonda and Matt, to say the triple paradox
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I would say list all the really good reasons not to do the exercises in the book and not to do homework and not to be disciplined. And there's plenty of reasons not to. And that's a left-hand column. And in the middle column, you can put a... piece of paper, put it on its side and make three columns.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And the middle column is put all the disadvantages of doing the homework and being disciplined and making yourself accountable. And that's very, very sucky. And then in the right-hand column, list what it shows about you and your core values as a human being that's positive and beautiful and awesome about not being disciplined and not making yourself accountable.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And you should be able to come up with at least 10 to 15 overpowering reasons in those three columns. These are reasons not to change. And then read them over and ask yourself, well, given all these reasons, why in the world would I want to change?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
No, doctor, that's what I need you to help me with, my motivation. I'm just not in the mood. But if you can show me, I heard you have a trick for getting people in the mood to do their homework.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah. And then we can also ask them, we can't motivate you, but we can certainly help you get started. Would you like some help? Yes. And then what's the first thing you'd have to do? Well, I'd have to sit down at my chair at my desk. Correct. What's the second thing?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I'd have to pick up a pen and a piece of paper, you know, just record those first three or four steps and then just say, now, let's see which help step did you want my help with? Would you like me to drop by your house and help you sit down in your chair at the desk? Did you need help with that? Did you need help picking up a piece of paper and a pen? I'm also a little thirsty. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Pour some water in my mouth. That's a nice iced Coca-Cola or whatever. And it's just reducing, in a gentle way, the absurdity of needing help getting started.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Oh, is that right? I don't remember that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
It's almost cheaper to buy new stuff at Costco than to have it cleaned.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like you have more underpants than anyone else in California.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
When you get to my age, you'll need it. You'll need them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Right. Right. Okay. Question number three from Holly. Oh.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
That's the chapter on the book on the Grateful Dead, you know, the great death of the self. And do you have a self? Do you need one? Something like that. And it was so disturbing to people that I removed it. Just like it was disturbing to this fellow, the first question, didn't like the...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Oh, nice. Thank you, Ed, for that comment and all the lovely comments you've sent in the past. And should we give a little report on the intensive at all? Just a moment or two? Yeah. Well, give us your assessment.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
criticism of the concept of of the self and uh so people just said this can be too upsetting to people so i i removed it and now she and a lot of other people say i wish you'd put that chapter in there and and talk more about this topic okay so let me oh thank you david that was helpful to clarify that so mark noble was one of the ones who didn't want me to put it in by the way um
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
He said it was very disturbing to think that we don't have a self.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I'll just answer that right now. Psychopathy. These people who were into, you know, sadistic serial killing, it's almost like they're a different species of human being. It seems qualitatively, not quantitatively different. That could be certainly a third category. And certainly Alzheimer's is an organic brain disorder.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, thanks. I'll give first answer since I gave you guys first dibs on the other two. Then I'll give you first dibs on this phenomenal final question that's about to come up. But I would say that the personality is much like the word self. There's no such thing as a personality. You don't have a personality. The personality is just a form of shorthand. Oh, you're grimacing, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah. But we all have certain characteristics like – Certain dogs, when they're born, just love humans from the moment they're born. They're very outgoing and they're very loving and friendly. And some dogs are born with a gene that makes them fearful of human beings from the moment of birth. I think pointer dogs can come with and without this gene.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
this particular gene and similarly we as humans some of us are born to be very kind of outgoing and some have a sense of humor and some tend to be kind of more shy and withdrawn and you know some are you know get up on stage and they have a big personality on stage like who's that fellow that that
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Please, please, please. You know that one? He's the James Brown. And the Famous Flames. He's like one of the greatest performers of all time. And you could say, boy, that guy's got soul. Well, that just means I love his tremendous skill and the energy he puts into his singing and dancing. And he's unbelievably talented. And
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
entertaining, but I'm not saying he has some substance called a soul attached to his body or something of that nature. I'm just giving a compliment. And similarly, when you say to someone, I like your personality, you're just saying, I like some of your behavioral characteristics and the way you relate to me and the way you relate to other people. And
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Matt, you have a personality where you're very kind of calm and, well, you have many personalities, many different ways of being. But one of the ones we admire is your warmth and kindness and compassion. And that's part of what you do. That's not part of what you are.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And a lot of the problems of philosophy, perhaps all of the problems of philosophy and religion as well, arise from what I call nounism. You know, we have shorthand for talking about people's characteristics. Like, he tends to be very outgoing. But then to say he has an outgoing personality... That's to attribute some metaphysical thing there that doesn't actually exist.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
These words are just shorthands for a series of behaviors that people have. And it's great that we're all unique and we have our own behaviors. Rhonda, you have just a very lovely description. Personality as well. You're you're you have a great sense of humor and you're light and loving and and joyous and curious about people and curious about ideas. And you're humble and warm. And, you know.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Oh, my gosh. Thank you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And those are things you do, not things that you are or are hiding somewhere in your brain or body. They're just behaviors that we have. And so that would be my answer to it. I think that this reader, let's see if we can find your name, Holy? Holly. Holly. Yeah, I think you've got it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
You're on to something and you're beginning to think in a way that's very similar to the way that I think about these concepts and words. Done. Love that answer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
On to question four.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
identify with having a certain bad self or good self I think is helpful but to see it as behaviors and habits that we can practice and change over time another misuse I think of thinking that you have a personality or a self I've seen so many examples along the lines of let's say a fellow gets angry and smashes his wife in the face during a moment of anger.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And then you hear him later on saying, well, that wasn't the real me. And it always pissed me off to hear that as if he had some real ideal self. And so anytime he does bad stuff, it's not really him, but it is really you, buddy. And that's a part of who you are. It's a part of your behavior. And if you keep saying that that's not the real me, you're just full of more denial and bullshit.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
You got angry. You wanted to hurt your wife. You intended to make a fist and smash her in the face, and you wanted to hurt her. And you can do all the denial you want, but that's what actually happened. Now, there's all kinds of things you can do to change that, to work on that, but to start out with that's not the real me. Come on, give me, as the Buddha so often said, give me an effing break.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah, who was it then? Right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Now we have one for you to feast on, Matt. And I think that there might be some area for overlap in our thinking on free will. And I'm very excited. I don't know if you read the notes I added earlier.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
But we will certainly certainly talk about it because I've been thinking about this and particularly in your idea of that, you know, part of when someone is a criminal, that they're doing things that perhaps are not entirely free in their in their actions. and to have a more compassionate view of other people, which is very much of a Buddhist thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
But let's read the question and see what we think.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I think there's a lot we can do with this, and I'll give you folks first shot. But I want to correct something that I correct over and over again, and it never does any good. And so I'll correct it again, and it won't do any good again. But he says the position that self doesn't exist seems extreme to me. Talking to me, David, as if I have said that or thought that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And I take umbrage with it and want to say again, and I know no one will listen, no one will understand, I've never said that the self doesn't exist or implied that. What I've said is quite different, and that's that when you talk about the self, I don't know what you're talking about. It's the same way when you talk about God.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I don't know how you're using that word or what meaning you're attributing to it. You can use the word self in specific contexts, and then I'll know what you mean. Like if you say to your child, behave yourself, you're telling your child that you're acting out right now, and your mother and I aren't going to tolerate this, and you better get back into line, and the child will know better.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
What you mean, but you're not talking about some metaphysical self that the child have. You're just saying change the way you're acting right now and stop screaming or whatever it is that you're doing. But aside from that, one small criticism. I think there's a lot of merit in this, and you folks can go first if you like, or I'll go first, depending on whatever you like.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
In fact, I could just say mine real quickly, that you might or might not... Matt, because I don't know how extreme your thinking is on free will. But in general, my comment about free will is the same. When people are talking about do we have free will or do we not have free will, to me that's a meaningless discussion.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
because you're taking freedom out of a specific context and viewing it as some abstract metaphysical substance that we could have or not have. And that's the typical meaningless pathway of most philosophical problems. But I do like this idea of thinking about it in all or nothing thinking, because there's a lot about us that we don't have free will about, but we might think we do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Thank you for the hard work that you put in and the contribution you made. Earlier today, I got the feedback from the online group. I haven't seen the feedback yet from the in-person group. And I was expecting something a little lukewarm because it's hard to be watching your computer for 40 hours over three and a half days. But I was just shocked by the feedback that it was just over the top.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And that might help a little bit. And, for example, my mother made this killer blueberry pie when I was little. And it was made with frozen blueberries. It was a beautiful crust, and it was very sweet, and it was kind of watery, and it was just to die for. And I just loved that blueberry pie. But I've never liked pumpkin pie. And so it's I don't like blueberry pie out of free will.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I just happen to be genetically or whatever predisposed to liking blueberry pie and not liking pumpkin pie. And there's a great many things about us like this. And I mentioned earlier on the show, some kids are raised from the time they're little in schools to be taught to hate Christians and Jews and taught that Christians and Jews are inherently evil and deserve death sentence, should be killed.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And those children grow up, and we sometimes call them terrorists, but they're kind of doing what they've been programmed to do and to believe. And a lot of what we do is baked into our genes genetically, like lions love to hunt when they're hungry and they kill deer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And when humans get very hungry, too, if you watch the television show Alone, where people are put in the wilderness with very few survival things, they're allowed to take seven things with them. And then right now, the current episode, they're parked 125 miles north of the Arctic Circle in remote locations. And whoever survives the longest wins a half a million dollars.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
But they get so darn hungry. Eventually, they'll eat pretty much anything. And so we have these tremendous drives that are biological, that are genetic, that have tremendous influences on what we do. So we might want to think about, you know, free will issues. Not in an all or nothing way, but in a practical way. And what are the things that we're doing that are heavily predisposed?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Now, you know, just having this and dropping my pen or picking it up or twirling it. I mean, that's something easy to make a decision about, and I don't have strong genetic inclinations, you know, one way or the other. But there are other things where my thinking is very much influenced by my biology, my upbringing, my genes, and who knows what. And so that's the end of my thinking.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
my thing there, but I'm trying to concede some ground to you. I don't know if it'll be successful or not, Matt, that this would be saying that our freedom is not all or nothing, but is somewhere in between. And there are some things about us and our inclinations and things we can do and can't do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I can't, for example, make the choice of floating up off my chair right now because I'm not a helium balloon. But I can make decisions about twisting the chair back and forth and, you know, make all kinds of free decisions. But other decisions I make may be more strongly influenced by things beyond my conscious awareness or control.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
The comments were They were tremendous. They were heartwarming and touching. And, you know, it was really great working with you, Rhonda. It was great teaching with Jill. And I found myself kind of opened up emotionally during the intensive. Every now and then when I tell a story, I'll get a little bit choked up. But not very often. But that was happening constantly in the intensive.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, I was concerned you'd go to that conclusion still, and so we're still in totally different universes there. And I thought there might be a chance for connection, but no, we're light years apart still.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
One thing, do you think if we had the brain that didn't follow the laws of physics, then we'd have free will?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, one thing in that universe, you couldn't have free will because you couldn't do anything because there'd be no laws to follow. I just scratched my head. I'm using some deodorant I got from, not deodorant, but shampoo from Amazon, some anti-dandruff shampoo. I don't know if it's working yet, but I'm scratching my head.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
But if my brain wasn't following the laws of physics, if my body wasn't following the laws of physics, the laws of the universe, I could not do that. Without the laws of the universe, free will would be impossible because you couldn't do anything. You couldn't raise your hand because it wouldn't follow the laws of muscular contraction and so forth.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, that's into your gentle and beautiful, kind and compassionate personality. So I won't try to throw a wrench in that monkey works. What's your thinking, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
We have two fools and a wise person here.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, just kind of nonsensical, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah, that's right. Who am I is that absurd question of do I have a self? Where is my self located? What's its name? What is its nature? It's just word salad to my way of thinking. But I thought the more interesting question – was whether we can correctly attribute this young man's change to having taken the pill Prozac, or were there other factors that might explain that?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And I don't know if we should go into that because that's the family's official belief system. But, you know, so maybe I shouldn't challenge that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, we do know what other factors are going on because he described them. He and his wife are lavishly thrilled with all these good things that the son is doing now. And the son is getting tremendous praise. There's a whole different behavioral paradigm going on. So we certainly see that there's a shift in the system.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And that could have been brought about as a result of a placebo effect, thinking, oh, this medication is going to be so powerful and wonderful for our child. And then noticing all these good things he's doing and he starts getting praise and he starts getting reinforced. So there's other ways of looking at it, but either way, it's a beautiful thing that's happening.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I just personally am reluctant to attribute things to medications that can't be supported by outcome research where you're not outperforming placebos because then people are attributing to a pill when they're actually bringing about the change themselves. But I don't like saying things like that because that's like pulling the wool out from under somebody.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And Friday night, when I had the interview with Lee Harrington, and she just asked, you know, one question. She was going to ask a bunch of questions. And she just asked to talk about the trajectory of my life. And I just started talking with, you know, being a senior at Amherst and
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And this family is doing beautifully, so I'm not going to say that. And I didn't.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, I sure think that sharing feelings, particularly hurt feelings, is an important key to intimacy and love and closeness, for sure. That can be leading to loving relationships when we share our flaws. In our shortcomings. Well, how was our podcast today, Rhonda? Because we weren't in agreement all the time and we had some sharp agreements.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Me with one of our write-in people and then Matt and David had a disagreement. Is this going to destroy our beautiful podcasts?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
The experiences are so great. I was just reanalyzing our data from a test of the Feeling Good app about a year and a half ago. because I'm going to give a keynote address at a conference in September.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
This will probably be published after that conference, but I'm giving a keynote address at this Erickson Foundation Depression and Anxiety Conference, and on Sunday, September 15th, I'm giving a keynote address. And so...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I'm challenging a claim that was made on 60 Minutes recently, that empathy is the healing thing and healing has to exist in a human context and a digital device could never mimic human empathy. But one of the things I looked up and was reminded of is that before we did that test, we asked people how much, what did they think their
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
not being able to understand Wittgenstein for a number of months until it suddenly occurred to me what he was trying to say and then where my life went from there. And I was, I think, choked up, you know, half the time or 90% of the time Friday night. And I was pretty self-revealing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
We had them do a seven-item mood scale, seven negative feelings, a rate each from zero to 100, how you're feeling right now. And so most of them were pretty high at the beginning of the beta test, like, you know, 30, 40, 50, some of them in the 80 or 90, you know, super severe range. And then ask them, where do you think your score is going to be at the end of the beta test?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And this was a four-week beta test. And they made predictions that were quite different from the way they were feeling at the beginning. Like someone might have been a 60 on guilt on 0 to 100 and predict he'd end up with a 15 on guilt. And the predictions were so accurate, it looked like somebody faked the data.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Like the actual was within a point or point and a half of the predictions for the group. Like the mean, say, was 14.5 on gilt at the end, and they had predicted 14.0. It was that close on all seven negative feelings.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
It was really, I've never seen data like that before. It was one of the most striking research studies I think I've ever encountered in my whole career. And so this family may have had the idea, oh, man, we're taking this Prozac, which we had in the 1970s. We were one of the first groups to get it at Penn. It was called Lily 11-014-0. It was an experimental drug.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And we've got this powerful Prozac and this is going to really change our son's life. And there's been all kinds of research on antidepressants and teenagers and showing that they don't have other than a placebo effect. But that placebo effect, the family may have thought, wow, this is really going to help our son. And now things are changing. Now they're acting like everything's changing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
and believing it, and then suddenly things change. So a lot of times our own expectations are operating on us in more powerful ways than what we're aware, and we go attributing changes that we're bringing about ourselves to external factors, like some pill or medication that we're taking. I just thought it was interesting.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
So at any rate, thank you, guys.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
No, it wasn't when it came out. When it came out, the publisher told me the day it was published, my editor, that the company had made a decision not to support it because the president of the company had decided it had no commercial potential. No one would want to read a long book on depression. And so it limped along for eight years, and I kept trying to get on local shows or whatever I could.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And I didn't know if I was making a fool of myself or what, but people stood and gave a standing ovation at the end, which was very reassuring to me and a kind of a relief. But, you know, I just think that there was so many tears and laughter all throughout the intensive, and I thought it was probably going to be our last one
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And it was really difficult because I didn't know about marketing. But I got on a show in, I think, Cleveland, Ohio, the Morning Exchange. And a woman who used to do my typing, Mary Lovell, maybe I told this story already, but she said the way to publicize your book is take any publicity you can get and always write a thank you letter to the person who got you on that show or media interview.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And so this was a morning show in Cleveland, and so it was...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
bigger deal than I what I was used to but it's still kind of very small time thing in a smaller market but I was thrilled and it went well and then afterwards the producer told me that she had adopted an 11 year old girl because she was unable to have a her own baby or some such thing and she was feeling very guilty because the girl kept running away from home and
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
She was devastated and thought she was a failure as a mother. So I helped her out and then wrote her a thank you letter. And then one day, years later, that was in the, you know, kind of mid 1980s. And then several years later, I got a call from New York and she said, I don't know if you remember me, but you helped me so much after you were on the Cleveland Morning Exchange.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And I always told myself if I ever got to produce a big show, you'd be my first guest. And I was just got a job as a producer on the Phil Donahue show. If you come day after tomorrow, we'll give you the whole hour of the show. And it was my first chance of being on a big show. And Phil Donahue was amazing. really doing fantastic stuff.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I mean, he had a market, so many tens of millions of viewers that you wouldn't believe. And he had a very dignified talk show. He was serious. He was bringing serious topics and letting the audience participate. And, you know, five or ten minutes after that show, My book sold more than it had in the first eight years of its release, and it went to the top of all of the bestseller lists.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
It was number two on the New York Times list and number one on the Dalton list and one on the Publishers Weekly list. And it just transformed my life and certainly the life of that book. And I remember I was at Presbyterian Medical Center, and they didn't say where I was from on the show. But so many people found out and called that the telephone system at the hospital shut down.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
They couldn't handle all the calls. And it was like a fantastic thing. And so I was always very indebted to Phil Donahue and to that beautiful, wonderful woman who gave me that break that really changed the trajectory of my life. Yeah. I'm sad to see that we've lost him.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Oprah kind of took over after him, and there have been a lot of great talk show hosts, but he was one of the first or the first of his type, and he was like you a lot, Matt. He was very kind of thoughtful and serious but interesting. And it's sad to, you know, lose these people. I never really got to know him or anything. He was very friendly when we were there and that type of thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
because it was so damn much work for Jill Lovett and Moore and all the people at the Institute. Angela. I won't name all these people, people I haven't heard of, but fantastic effort to put something like that into production. And so I was thinking, you know, maybe that'll be it, and we'll just do half-day online things from now on.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
But I know he had millions and millions of fans who really loved him and appreciated him and for good reason.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Sad to lose him.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And also slash Max Cosma philosopher.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Well, I think you're aiming your criticisms at Rhonda and Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Love you, Max. We want to get our message out to everybody. And we don't believe that our message is inconsistent with anyone's spirituality. And I've treated so many people. I've had tens of thousands of hours with people with severe depression and anxiety. And at the moment of recovery, they generally get in touch with their spiritual beliefs.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
They understand things about their own spirituality, their own religious beliefs, whether that's Jewish or Christian or Islamic or Buddhist or whatever. Or whatever it happens to be. And I've never had a person who felt their religion, their religious beliefs were challenged in any way by the kind of treatment that I was offering. Because when you recover from depression, it's not just...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
getting over negative feelings or self-criticisms. It's generally awakening of something spiritual inside of you. And we all describe that with different languages. Different religions have different symbolisms, different rituals of trying to get ideas across, and usually unsuccessfully for the most part. That people love to go to church and dress up and
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
go to the synagogue or whatever and listen to the sermons and smile and be friendly with everyone, then go out and sin away for another week. Uh, but that's pretty cynical, cynical, but I, but I think it's hard for people to grasp the meaning of Christianity or Buddhism or, or the, you know, the Jewish theological beliefs are pretty deep. And, uh,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And once you get them, then you suddenly understand, let's say, the Christian idea that we're all flawed. That's behind the ritual of Holy Communion. Why do we have Holy Communion? Because you can't go to heaven through your hard work, through your own works. You need forgiveness. Well, forgiveness is the same as acceptance. Right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
But people were really saying, we want more of this kind of intensive training. It's something that you can't get in any other way. And so it was really nice from that point of view. It wasn't huge in numbers. We didn't fill up in the in-person part there at the South San Francisco Conference Center, which costs a fortune to rent the place.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And that's the same as the Buddhist concept of the great death of the self and enlightenment. And so we're in no way trying to challenge any of that, but rather bring new meaning into that and make that accessible to more people. My father was pretty rigid, and I'm probably way too hard on him. I talk to him a little bit every day now when I go out on my walk. I finally let him in. But...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
He used to think that psychiatrists were of the devil. He really said that. And so I'm sure he didn't like that I became a psychiatrist. But I have experienced the healing I've learned to do as really giving people the gift of their own spirituality in a much deeper level. Does that make sense, Max, at all?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah, he's just saying that we're alive and we're doing shit all the time. And that's what we can talk about. And all this esoteric stuff is just phony baloney. But that doesn't mean that spirituality is phony baloney at all. And that love or compassion for people who are suffering is... is phony in any way.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
But the quality of what was going on was pretty, pretty fantastic.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
That's what, you know, real spirituality has to do with response to the suffering of other people in a compassionate way. Yeah, beautifully said. Well, thank you, Max. You'll have to make more cameo appearances.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Thanks, everybody.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
They came like 10, 15 miles in these newfangled automobiles.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah, it was amazing. We thought they'd all come online so they wouldn't have to travel, but a lot of them – came in person anyway, and it was just really special. Well, shall we get into our agenda for today? We've got four great and somewhat controversial questions that are likely to inspire some strong emotion and opinion.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I had to squeeze that one out. Wow.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Absolutely. Well, I'll let you guys give your responses first, if you like, or I'll go first if you prefer.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Thank you. That's beautifully stated. Very gentle and warm and loving and accepting. And I think that's why you're so popular, not only with your patients and family and colleagues, but why David and Rhonda love you so much, too. Oh, right back at you guys. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Great, beautifully and gently stated. And now I'll throw away all the goodwill you two have created by giving my response. You know, I've mentioned, well, let me just say a couple different things. It's hard for me to express my thinking about philosophy Because it is very simple, but almost impossible for most people to grasp.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And it took me months, six months really, reading Wittgenstein's philosophical investigations before I got it. And now I can understand his... Some of his despair throughout his life. He struggled with depression and loneliness because no one understood what he was trying to say. It was rumored only seven people, you know, when he was alive understood him.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And I think the Buddha had the same kind of frustration that I've heard a rumor, and who knows, these things are probably just bullshit that's made up, that only three people were enlightened because of the Buddha, which would mean people who understood what he was trying to say.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And so when I would talk about a word like self or soul, the kind of thing I say is, I don't know what you're talking about. What you're saying has no meaning because you've taken a word out of its context where it lives in the English language and concrete specific applications, and you've made it into some kind of abstract language. thing that we could have or not have.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
And I'm not saying that we have a soul or that we don't have a soul, and I'm not saying I don't know if we have a soul. What I'm saying is when you use a word in that abstract context, it has no meaning to me. It's just language out of gear. And as far as attacking your religious beliefs, your spiritual beliefs are your own. It's between you and your maker or however you want to think about it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
Yeah, and this is a favorite time of the week to hang out with you folks and with all of you who are listening and write in with such beautiful comments and wonderful questions for us to reflect on. We didn't know if people would like the philosophical bent that we've had in the last four or five episodes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
But I'm just saying that that use of language means nothing to me. But my dad was a minister, and he was a little on the rigid side, and that brings out my hackles when I sense judgmental rigidity in people. And when you're saying my discussion seems reckless, I would say, go to hell. I mean, but I'm being very gentle now. That was an attempt at humor. LAUGHTER
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
416: Ask David: The "Soul" Revisited; Acountability: Is "personality" another illusion? And more!
I don't like that morality police because my dad was kind of like that. And I didn't, you know, what I saw in the name of religion, I didn't admire. And what I see in the name of religion today, I see a lot of torture in the name of religion. I see a lot of war, a lot of murder, a lot of hatred. And to me, I think spiritual beliefs are very, very important.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Let me write those down again. I'm writing as fast as I can. Doing a little fire hose of info. Yeah, the finishers were what percent?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Well, I'll turn it right over to Jason, just with the brief introduction that, as you know, I'm a big advocate for research, and we've been doing all kinds of research with the app, but you, Jason, have started on some really cool, innovative experiments that you've been doing on a variety of topics, and I think we want to get that out into the
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
It would be fun to plot these things, get these data in there and calculate the causal effects on the changes. Yeah. Because if you're able to do that, even though the non-finishers, you know, dropped out, they had some data along the way, I suspect.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah, cool. Cool.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
That's the biggest spread. Three questions. The last four questions have been like 50% greater in the non-finishers.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
In the known finishers, you just suggested a data that was 58 or 68.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Oh, 80 in both groups. Oh, no, no, 69 and 69 or 69 and 68. That's right, 69 and 68, familiarity with meditation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Right, exactly. We should have questions like that for the app.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
and to the public forum because it's not only important, but it's innovative and fascinating and kind of mind-blowing. So take it away, Jason, and we have no idea where we're going to end up, but we'll give it a start and see where it winds its way through the cosmos to the conclusion.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
No, that wouldn't be statistically significant. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
That's pretty pronounced there. That's interesting.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Right, they're from a zero to 100. They're not like in the pits. Right. They're not in the joyful or even very happy range. They're just kind of halfway up. That's right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Well, I mean, it's, it's relatively the same reduction. They both had a 33% expectations of improvement. Yeah. 30%, 33% drop roughly. That's right. Yep. Um,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
No, they're just two groups.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
But these expectations are very helpful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So what was that? Did you do the positive also, the expectations?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah, very, very, very limited expectations of happiness increases.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah, it's pretty similar, although they were slightly higher expectation, maybe not statistically higher, but they had an increase of 13 45ths and the other had 10 49ths.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I want to say that. New Cool Tool Club. That's right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So they're going to rate their belief in the negative thought and then how upset they are between zero and 100 after each of the five meditations.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah. And all of you who want to become members, send me a check for $49.95. Yeah. And no more.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
25, 26, 24, 26, 25.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah, correlation or an R-squared, a 56% R-squared.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And like a 0.7 correlation or 0.75.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Can you read us the upset numbers? We have the belief numbers.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Oh, the 3725, those were the feelings, not the belief and the thoughts.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Oh, okay. Let me just relabel my columns, feelings, and then percent, belief. Okay, great. This is fabulous work, Jason.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
The positive feelings and the percent belief in the negative thought.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Can I just see if I've got my numbers right? The upset, the positive feelings after the body scan was 55, is that right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
54. So that's really incredible. They had their first...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
blast after the the body scan one and then no real changes after that and and are you reading to us the completers or the non-completers uh this is just completers because the non-completers don't have any of this much of this data at all so i'm just yeah so this is just the okay sure 35 people okay sure everything and then the percent beliefs
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Oh yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
But the positive feeling sliders, the main, was 49 and 45 in the two groups, right? Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah. And where was the expectation? Oh, the expectation was 59 and 58. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't get up quite to their expectations. Well, they were in the ballpark. It was pretty close.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So they started off... Just give me a second to locate the data because I've been taking notes. And how much do you believe... Oh, here. What kind of meditation and how much... I'm trying to find out how much they believe their negative thought at the start. It was an average belief of 76%. Oh, yeah, yeah, here it is, 76 and 74. Oh, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So they went from 76, and now we're looking at the completer group only, to 64, 61, 54, 52, and then 51. So they had one drop, you know, a... 12-point reduction in the belief from that body scan and then kind of some kind of a continual thing, you know, like another 13-point reduction by the end. Yeah, that's right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And what you were saying, the loving kindness had the greatest change in what parameter?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
The loving kindness, it's hard to know what reduction it had unless we asked their belief in that at the beginning of it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah, okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Right, right. So that had a seven-point reduction. And the initial exercise, Rhonda, how much did that go down? That went from 49 to, I believe, from 76 to 64, right? That had a 12-point? That's a 12-point.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So it looks from these numbers like the percent belief and the thought and the percent reduction and the upsetness were strongly correlated.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
As well as taking into account both groups.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
You get consistent estimates. But it's really interesting and it looks like that during the meditation, the reason the upsetness changed was because the belief of the negative thoughts changed. Is that fair?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah. Cool. Well, that's that's a fantastic thing. And I know you're doing a lot of research on a lot of things simultaneously, but it's like a cornucopia of of discovery here.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Let's make a list of questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Well, let me start out making it more basic. Is the effect due to meditation or placebo? Wouldn't that be like expectations effect?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And then the second question that you said, the third one was Hawthorne, but what was the second one that you said? Is the effect...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Oh yeah. That'd be a good one. Um, And then is the effect due to a sampling issue?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
But we might be able to control for them with this data, because you have some data on that, how familiar they are, what their expectations are for meditation. We can find out the magnitude of those causal effects, if they are having causal effects. But the same as in our general thing, are we attracting a population of people with positive expectations and positive experiences with meditation?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Because these were... you know, random from a larger group. So these were the ones that wanted to participate in an experiment on meditation. Is that right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah. and once again, I think from my point of view, we're seeing some reductions in negative feelings and some boosts in positive feelings with at least one of the meditation exercises, which kind of puts a nail in David's coffin that meditation really doesn't do much for you. But on the other hand, the size of the effect was no different from a placebo effect, which supports David's thing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And we can look into this more with structural equations. But another thing I think that people have been saying for a long time is, To me, I'm pretty much of a pure cognitive therapist. I believe that change in negative feelings comes from a change in perceptions. And a lot of people don't buy that at all and angrily don't buy it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And they'll say, well, you can get a runner's high and that proves that it's exercise and not a change in your thinking. But, of course, when people say that, they're just kind of spouting lies
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
mindless garbage to put it in a kindly way because they're not measuring changes in negative thoughts during exercise and I exercise all the time and I never have a change in you know some boost in positive thinking I never have a boost I never have a runner's high
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
But what this study shows is that there is a, and I can check it out more thoroughly with structural equation modeling, but it looks like this confirms the idea that any change in negative feelings is mediated through a change in belief in negative thoughts. And I think that's
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
That's pretty exciting, and I think you're probably the first person in the world ever to measure, well, not only such refined measures of positive and negative feelings during meditation in a short period of time, but the first to document changes in negative thinking during meditation as the mechanism that changes negative feelings during meditation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
What did you make of the fact that there was this, something I wouldn't have predicted at all, this big boost in... feelings after the first meditation and nothing much after that except for that the percent belief kept going down and then the percent upsetness from that belief went down and any thoughts about that or
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Would the body scan one be because it was first or because it was different?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
You're hypnotized.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Or put you in a different hypnotic state.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Oh, yeah, right. Yeah, right. That would be your control group. When I started my work as a psychiatric resident, I used hypnosis techniques. I don't know if extensively, but a good bit with patients. And I was doing what you're calling the body scan relaxation. You know, focus on your, clench your fist and now relax it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
You can feel all the energy draining out, all the tension, all the worries are gone and blah, blah, blah, and go through all the different parts of the body. And we call that hypnosis, but it sounds like not different at all from body scan meditation. Would that be fair? It could be.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Oh, I see, yeah. But I like your thinking.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Let me ask you another. You ask a question, Rhonda. I have one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Okay. I just have to applaud this fascinating work that you're doing. It's really, really fabulous. And it's a joy to hear you present it and talk about it. And the fact that you're doing this, it's really groundbreaking research. And... We can maybe have the five-minute version of this in this foundation meeting coming up later in the fall.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And I could present a five-minute version of some of the stuff I've been doing, too, because I think it's very exciting. But I have kind of a naive question. One of the Tuesday groupers who's now pretty much in private practice said, and well-known to our community, brought into the Tuesday group, I would say about, I don't know if you were there that day, Rhonda, it was three or four years ago.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And it was actually Jacob who brought in some, I think, a loving kindness meditation for us to listen to. Do you remember? Were you there that day? I think so. Yeah. And I remember when listening to it, not only did it give me loving kindness, but it created intense feelings of rage. And I wish I wasn't in this room. And Jill Levitt felt exactly the same way, really.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Not only not helpful, but offended. And, you know, you could say resistant or turned off or whatever. And then sometimes I've heard presentations of guided imagery hypnosis. I think these are just different words for the same phenomenon going on with people. and I think I've also used them with groups.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I've been in groups where we were doing it, and just finding my mind wanting to go over here, and they're trying to push us over here, and just kind of an adverse... And that would be different from non-helpfulness. And do you have any feel for what that's all about?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I felt better when I heard that Jill had the exact same reaction because she and I think very similarly in many ways about certain things. But there's probably just pure speculation there. Could you say your question again? What's the question? Well, the question is, you've talked about bimodal distributions. Yeah. And can you define what that is?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Basically, that's a normal, you know, that's a bell shaped distribution. What you see with my hand, you know, it's low. Some of the population's real low and then there's an average of the population and then it tapers. And some people have real high like depression in the population. Some people take my depression test would have a zero rate.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And others would have a 20, and the rest would be on kind of a bell-shaped distribution. You know, kind of most people clustered at some average value, whatever it might be in the population or in the group you're studying. But a bimodal distribution is where you have two bumps. It's clearly two populations with different means that are different from each other.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
They're not all part of the same normal distribution. Like, for example, in a football game, you have half of the people in the stadium rooting for one team and half rooting for the other team. So that would be a bimodal distribution. But they're not all falling on the same curve. They're two different populations with two different kinds of responses.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Well, the question would be, why might some people like David and Jill perhaps have, I know just, I can only speak for that one example, because for all I know, Jill loves meditating, but that have just intensely negative feelings. And some, as you say, Rhonda, love a loving kindness kind of meditation. And probably a lot of people just find it boring and indifferent sometimes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And I'm just saying, how would I be different from the people who are, you know, kindly loving the loving kindness?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
That's what we saw in the beta test of a year and a half ago with 290 beta testers of the app, that we asked them to predict what their hopelessness would be after using the app, their anger. You know, how hopeless are you from zero to 100? How angry are you at the initial evaluation before they'd ever been in the app?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And then what do you think your scores on these seven negative feelings will be after you've used the app? And they weren't all exactly correct, but they were almost all almost exactly correct. Like they predict the mean of the group, the prediction was that the hopelessness would go from something like 0 to 100, like from 40 to 15.4.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
I'm just out of memory, and it actually, the actual end hopelessness was 15.1. It was within three hundredths. And and anger. A few of them were off by like a 16 prediction and a 12 actual on a zero to 100, which is still pretty damn close. But most of them were within a point or two. And it was just mind blowing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
But the analyses also showed that there were that was only accounting for a small amount of the variance and change. The R-square attributed to that change. And that there were other causal factors going on in the app that caused these massive changes. And I'm just babbling now, but isolating the actual causes of change is, I think, incredibly important. So we find out, you know, what causes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
causes are real and how powerful are they and are they stronger than these expectational effects and how much of what we experience is what we brought into the experience and then we attribute it to the experience whereas it was our expectation that might have accounted for most of what happened and that could happen going to an amusement park, going to a church service or a
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
you know, whatever, an athletic event, you could have the expectation that it's going to be pretty boring, and it probably would be. But that might also be just based on memory, that you haven't found this athletic event interesting in the past, and then you get dragged to one, and you don't expect much, and it isn't much. But I think that's interesting.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah, you can.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Was there like an exposure therapy?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
You could say that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
But that would be different from getting good at it. That would be just getting used to those feelings and deciding they're not that dangerous anymore.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
You're filled with joy and, you know, peace. And, you know, it's very pronounced in my way of thinking. I'm glad you can see it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So people like being guided in a positive direction with positive suggestions. Yes. Seems like it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Yeah, yeah, that's a pleasure-predicting sheet, yeah. Yeah, you could do all kinds of cool stuff. I didn't understand your question, Max, and I was thinking of having Max make a cameo appearance too, should he choose to. He's our technician but also a philosopher and extremely interested in all of this same stuff.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
But the choice, isn't that the same as we were talking about already, the sample selection bias and the expectations bias? to what extent they account for the change that we've seen as opposed to or in addition to the actual meditation. I didn't get the difference in your question, Max. Yeah. Could you read the question one more time, Rhonda? Sure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And these were the people who wanted to come and participate in a meditation experiment.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
How many were invited and how many, I think 70 were in your study or something? How many received the email?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And then only 60 actually made it in. Yeah. And 35 completed it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
You could tell your therapist that. Just say, I got the greatest mood boost ever just before I started working with you and knew I was going to work with you. And then it quickly faded once I actually worked with you. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Well, thank you, Jason, for this really eye opener. And maybe you folks can email us too. And Jason, you'll find Rhonda and Jason, David, our contact information in the show notes. And let us know if you like having this crazy scientist on our show. He also has many other amazing, wonderful things to offer. Did we tell him last week, Rhonda, what we're hoping to cook up? No.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
We don't know if this is going to happen, but Jason, you've been very active in Buddhism and meditation and all forms of spiritual searches and discoveries. And we thought it might be fun, and this might not work, but we were thinking of having an Enlightenment month where we would invite different Buddhist monks to come and join us, a different one each week, and give their teachings.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
share their feelings and see what is the overlap with team or what is different with team. Because I think that a sense of spirituality, however you want to define that term, can be a vastly important part of work with team. It's not just learning to change your thinking to reduce negative feelings. It's also about blowing the negative feelings away
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
pretty much entirely and going like on a trampoline, being catapulted into hyperspace where you're actually experiencing what you could call enlightenment, a radically different view of yourself and other people. That's pretty exhilarating. And it's never been talked about when I was a psychiatric residency as a part of treatment. We were just hoping to get people maybe 50%.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
or something like that. There wasn't ever any concept of joy and discovery. And some of us think that's an important component of what we're trying to do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And I think a lot of times the people who are considered mystics within each religion might be merging on the same kind of spiritual territory, just using different metaphors to convey that. But I don't know. There could be. Jason, you probably know way more about that than I would. But either way, I think it would be of interest. Cool, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
So write and tell us what you think and what you're looking for. We aim to please.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
It's always kind of really fun and interesting stuff. We're going to be testing your new Habits and Addictions module with AI, which is a pretty cool tool. There's a lot of these cool tools. And so read the show notes. You can find them on the website, which is they're published right there.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
at feelinggood.com, and you click on the podcast and the quick list of all the podcasts, you can find the latest one at the bottom, and the show notes are right there, and you can get all the contact information so you can ask questions. And, yes, we would love to have you join the Cool Tools and Fools Club. Is that it? You got it. So goodbye, everybody. Thank you, Jason.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Love you and appreciate your brilliant, fantastic work, not only in the research domain, but in the healing domain, because you're the one who's put the the magic into our app and hopefully put some magic into the hearts of a lot of our, our app users. And if you're interested in the app, check it out too. And the, and either of the app stores, you can take a free ride.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And if you want to buy it after you've tried it for a week or two and can't afford it, contact us and we'll give it to you for free. Cause we want everyone who's struggling and hurting to, to have a chance to take a shot with, with the app because we, we often see very rapid changes in negative feelings and we, we would really love it to have to share that experience with you too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Okay. But what we can do, if you send me the data, because we have their data at the beginning up to the point where they dropped out, and then we can put it into an Amos structural equation model, and then we can get the estimate of the scores at the end of the entire group rather than just the completers. And we can see if there's a statistically significant difference there. Yes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
The 35 versus the entire group.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Were those numbers statistically significant? They're pretty close.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
And... When you say they look like distributions, it's probably hard to describe in words without visualizing. Yeah, how do you actually... Bimodal distributions or clustered at both ends or something like that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
62, so the same kind of difference we saw above.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
420: The Mindfulness Mystery Tour! And Two HUGE Discoveries!
Oh, I see. So this is how much do you believe it will only have a small effect? Is that what it is?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Well, you know, there are worksheets that you can copy from your book or make a tool on your own computer copying those. But, you know, even if you don't want to do that, you can just get a piece of paper and write positive reframe on the top and then. On the left side of the paper, write the feeling like sad, depressed, down, unhappy, whatever that feeling is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And then to the left of that, write down the responses.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Right. So I just visualized it all completely wrong. Yeah, you just write down the feeling and then you write down the responses. Is there some truth? Is it appropriate? What are the values? You know, what's the beauty in them? What are the consequences of not believing them and not feeling them any longer? So you don't actually need anything fancy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Okay. So among the many incredible tools that have been created under team, it seems the agenda setting piece, which is where a positive reframing is included, is probably the most powerful and innovative. I have listened to many of your live sessions intensely, and it seems that your gift and that of Jill Levitt is convincing the patient of the beauty of their depression anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It feels that they're almost recovered or very nearly once you go through this step.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Well, and one point I wanted to make, David, that we were talking about before is that you and Jill are not trying to convince the patient of anything. That would be like you talked about before, that would be cheerleading. What you're doing is you want the patient to do the work for themselves. So just like I talked about before with
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Jill, she asked me some poignant questions because she is really brilliant. And that led me to have my own insight. And that's a lot more powerful than her telling me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Well, I think she wanted me to acknowledge that I was feeling that I valued being humble. Oh, yeah. So she asked me the opposite and she said, well, do you think you're a conceited person? Yeah. And I said, no. And she said, well, what do you think about conceited people? I said, oh, yeah, I don't really like conceited people. She said, well, how would you describe yourself then?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Even the way it does, your whole, it's me, your negative thoughts again, just want to remind you, dot, dot, dot, then shows you the negative thought. And it even asks to do role reversals with you. The interactions are genius and have your essence ingrained in all of the chatbot responses. You have truly found a way to reach even more people than ever before and will continue to as it develops.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I guess I'm kind of humble. Yeah, you're right. And so that was helpful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
But I wonder if she had said, Rhonda, do you think this thought or this feeling says that you're a humble person? I probably would have said, yeah, but I wouldn't really felt it as much as in the dialogue with her.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, exactly. And it's really more exciting that, like you said, that aha moment. It's exciting when you have your own aha moment.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Okay. On the face of it, it looks like what you're doing is very simple, but there is a nuance and complexity to it that is incredible. And without sounding too grandstanding or overdramatic, this gift seems to be where the healing power lies. If you could bottle that gift, you would change the world or be a billionaire or both. It is astonishing to listen to.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I would love to hear more about your insights into this area and how people can unlock this for themselves.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah. And I do want to reiterate that that is a major portion, a major I don't know what, it's a major contribution of yours to the field of psychology, positive, you know, the whole agenda setting sequence. It's, you know. That changes psychology forever.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Congratulations on this great success, Dan Lenahan.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Exactly. You're right, as you should be. Okay, question number three. Anne asks, what can I do when I blush and my face turns bright red? Hi, Dr. Burns. I hope you're both doing well. I wanted to share with you that you have changed my life dramatically. I have always thought that everyone else had a problem as far as attitudes and behaviors.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
But you have taught me through all three of your books and podcasts that my thoughts are why I've been so anxious and depressed.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Exactly what I was going to do. I'm anxious about getting completely off my Kanazapan because it helps me control my face from turning red. My red face makes me so anxious and I start sweating profusely when I'm in a situation that's embarrassing. Thank God my menopause has helped me with explaining why my face is so red. This has been going on since I can remember.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I think I was five years old in school when it first happened. Most people stare at me because my face gets really red. I've repeatedly tried looking at people. Well, my face is turning red to see if they're truly looking at me, and sometimes they are, and sometimes they're not. The redness lasts for about two minutes, but it feels like hours. What can I do?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I want to get off all of my meds, but my psychiatrist says to do it slowly. I can't thank you enough for everything you do for people. Thank you, Anne.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Sure. Well, I love your response about self-acceptance and changing her thoughts. I mean, right now she's thinking this is awful, but she could also be thinking this is endearing. And if she thought this is endearing, then she would be happy when she blushed because it would allow her to be closer to other people. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I was just thinking that once you go through the whole team model and you get to methods with her, then we could do some really fun work with shame attacking techniques or exposure, having her blush, and then do a survey technique, asking people what they think about her when she's blushing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
You don't recommend the survey?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
What do you think of exposure and shame attacking?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
There's nothing wrong with me. I'm just a person who blushes, and when I blush, I sweat. That's just part of who I am.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Well, okay. You don't have to be around me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I'd say that was big. Big or huge? I'd say that was huge. I've never seen you tongue, you're very rarely tongue-tied. You didn't have a response to that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I escaped through avoidance by when I said you don't have to be around me?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Okay. So you're Joan and I'm attacking you. So Joan, I noticed your face is all red and you're all sweaty. It's so gross.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Well, that is a perfect example of self-acceptance.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I love how you said, really? I've had this since I was five.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Why does it upset you? Like you're just normalizing it. You're just normalizing the blushing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It's not just that they want to support you. It's that they want to, you know, overcome their symptoms of depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Sure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, I am blushing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Wow. You're right. It is kind of childish. I love that about myself. And I've been blushing since I was a little kid, probably five years old. It's a quality that's, that's a part of me. And most people feel like close to me and get really endeared with me. And I love that. You know, it makes, I feel really humble and, and I don't feel like I'm, I have to be better than everyone else.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And blushing kind of keeps that alive for me. But you said it was disgusting and you're calling everybody to look over at me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I would be so happy and flattered to be in the newspaper talking about blushing and having my picture in the paper, even when I am blushing. That would be super fun. Well, you said it was ridiculous. I'm curious, what's ridiculous about it? You said it was disgusting. Like, what disgusts you about it?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Oh, gosh. I admire you for being conscious, being courageous and confident. And, you know, blushing is a part of me and I love the strengths that you're sharing with me. You know, blushing is one of my qualities, just like
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
talking to you is and and responding to you and thinking about it and and you know can i give you a corrective feedback right now yeah i'm kind of losing myself you're getting defensive aren't you
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
But what if I said blushing is one of my many strengths? I mean, why do I have to see it as a flaw?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
No, not right now. That's why it's not going to work. Okay. That makes sense. Okay. So then let me just repeat that and say, yeah, blushing is one of my many flaws, but if you get to know me, you'll find out that I have a lot more than that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
That was a good lesson.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I think we have time for one more. We did 45. It's been 45 minutes. Do you want to stop at 45 minutes?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
So Dylan asked you, can you have a delayed reaction to the CBT exercises? Hi, David. I'm a big fan of your work. A quick question. Do you commonly come across people who do CBT exercises and they don't get their anxiety or depression levels reduced super low right after doing the exercises, but a couple of days later they experience the results?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I think that's a really interesting question. And I would say... that I'm kind of guessing that the person who didn't get their depression or anxiety levels reduced very quickly right after doing the exercise is probably spending time thinking about the exercise and incorporating it into their daily life. And that's leading them
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
toward a lower level of their feelings, a reduction in their feelings. So I actually think that's kind of cool. And maybe that would make their reduction stronger because they're incorporating the lessons.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Okay. Well, this is an Ask David episode, so let's dive in and ask David. Question number one. John asks, can you do team on your own? And this is a question we've answered many times, but there's a different twist in this. Oh, John says, one other point that occurred to me, the people who do personal work on your podcasts are generally team CBT therapists or people familiar with the team model.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
No, that you're thinking about it over time. Like you have a therapy session and you think about it the next day and the next day and then the insight comes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Well, what about that woman that you were talking about who was an average social worker and didn't have a husband and she thought she wasn't special?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, so when you finally figured it out, what was it?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
That she doesn't accept herself and she's self-critical.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
She's beating up on herself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Absolutely not. She would never say that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Because that would be mean and cruel and unnecessary.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And what you just described, what would you say to a seven-year-old? That's a type of paradoxical double standard technique. Would you say to a seven-year-old the things that you're saying, the critical things that you're saying to yourself?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Okay. Well, thanks everyone for listening and we'll see you next time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. This has been another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
They're obviously very familiar with the steps and the techniques in team, and yet they seem to require the insight and guidance from yourself and Jill. Why do you think that is, if they're so well-versed in team already? Does that mean that a person from the general public doing their own work using your books without the guidance of a team therapist is futile?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Or would you always recommend someone using a therapist? Kind regards, John
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety dr burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at stanford university school of medicine hello Hi, David, and welcome to our listeners throughout the country, the universe, and the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good Podcast, and it's episode 415.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
You know, you used the word I was going to use. We all are blinded by our own negative thoughts. And we don't see all of our positive traits. One time in the Tuesday group when we were still meeting in person, I did some work with you and Jill. And when we were in the positive reframing, she asked me a couple of questions about
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
to get me to think about some of the positive aspects of what I was feeling. And that sparked insight that I don't think I could have gotten to by myself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Can you provide more insights or instructions on how to do personal, excuse me, how to do positive reframing on your own? It seems to be an incredibly important key to Team CBT. Hey there, David and Rhonda. Hope you're keeping well. This is John from Ireland. And John wants to know, I'm always grateful for your inspiring work. I love your passion.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And I have a question on positive reframing as someone who is still trying to find my own journey to enlightenment following many months of anxiety and depression. I feel I'm failing at this positive reframing step. I still find I am bumping up against resistance and I feel that my positive values and benefits don't count.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
It's almost as if there's some kind of discounting the positive going on, like my negative points vastly outweigh my positive points. It's like there's such a negative filter, there's no space for recognizing positive qualities.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Borowski, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
And I do have an endorsement to read, and afterward, we're going to do another Ask David. Just me and David. Sadly, May can't join us today. So this is from a really great team therapist, Dan Lenahan, and he wrote you. Hi, David. I was fortunate enough to be one of the original beta testers for the Feeling Great app and knew the potential it had.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Yeah, it is. You didn't include that last question, are there bad things or are there consequences that would happen if you gave up on the negative thought or the negative feeling or beating up on yourself? And I think since you added that, and I've been talking about that with clients, that's really powerful.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
I admittedly hadn't tried the app since the artificial intelligence or AI implementations. So I was eager for the final release. And wow. Talk about, as you would say, blowing it out of the water or knocking it out of the park. When I saw that externalization of voices was a technique, I wondered how could that possibly work? But wow.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Okay, here's his second part of his question. I was listening to the beginning of episode 310, where a listener had an excellent contribution on positive reframing from your live work with NASLI. That got me thinking, would it be possible to hear more insights and detail on how to perform your own positive reframing work?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
415: Ask David: TEAM on your own, Blushing, Positive Reframing, & Delayed Responses
Uh-huh. Well, do you have a guideline or a worksheet anywhere? It feels like the most powerful of all the steps.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I thought I'd start by reading an endorsement that's particularly relevant for today's podcast because it's about... Me, Matt, and David. And somebody wrote, I have such appreciation for the three of you and the labor of love that are the podcasts. The warmth and friendship shared among you, Rhonda, Matt, and David, rings true for the genuine affection you must have developed for each other.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
While sharing your ideas and wisdom, you also set a fine example for healthy, respectful relationships. I hold David in the highest esteem for his generosity in making all his years of work available to the world as a gift. Your, Rhonda, Matt, and David's altruism is inspiring and making the world a gentler, kinder place. It fills me with hope. Jodi.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Oh, there was quite a few of them, actually. I have to pull up the list. I don't have them memorized, but I can do that pretty easily. Well, here, I pulled up the list, too. Do you have it, Jason? No.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So there's a lot of them, actually. I must never fail or make a mistake.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I must never fail. I must never make a mistake. That's perfectionism. My worthwhileness depends on my achievements or my intelligence, my talent, my status, my income, my look. So the achievement addiction.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I guess the approval addiction as well.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
That I need everyone's approval. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
You know, if people reject me, there's something wrong with me. If I'm alone, I'm going to be miserable, worthless.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Fear of being alone. Fear of rejection.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
People won't love me and accept me as a flawed and vulnerable human being. Definitely. Perceived perfectionism.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Maybe even emotional perfectionism. I should always feel happy, confident, and in control.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I guess I did just assume that if he failed, he would be unhappy. And he wouldn't be able to accept that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well, you know, Jason, you want to say something about attachment?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well, if you let go of the external things outside of your body, if you're attached to the external things, achievements, love, accomplishments, perfectionism, those outside things, if you let go of those, that brings you the possibility of happiness when you find your own inner peace and joy, which seems to be a very key component to Team CBT.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
All right, so this is Haranmeh, and he asks, how can I deal with my intense anxiety before public speaking? And he wrote you, how can I deal with my intense anxiety before public speaking without working on the negative thoughts I have afterward? The thoughts I have afterward are I'm going to mess this up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
People are going to notice something obviously wrong in my presentation that I missed, and I'll look like a fool. This talk is important. It must go well. And here's his full email. Dear Dr. Burns, I love your books and the Feeling Good podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Do you have enough? Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Can I just reiterate that he's not looking for help with the thoughts after the presentation or dealing with his upsetness that he didn't go well. He wants to look for strategies to deal with anxiety before the presentation.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, Matt. I'm your negative thought. Oh, hi. It's good to see you again. Yeah, yeah. You know, I've been messing with you lately, and I just want to know that, you know, you're going to mess this talk up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Who won that, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And did you win it small or large? I thought it was large.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
No, I have to say that I agree with you, David. I mean, it doesn't matter if he does these techniques a week before or a day before or five minutes before. I mean, if he defeats them and practices defeating them regularly before the talk and does reach that state of enlightenment the way Matt did, then five minutes before the presentation, he can remind himself of how he defeated them a week ago.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay. As long as I don't have to be as good as Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well, actually, it did hurt my feelings. My feelings are a little hurt. I'm sensitive. And I am so used to being lame on the podcast that one more experience of being lame, just add it to the pile. And people like that I'm lame because it makes them really relate well to me. Like that's what people said all the time at the intensive.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Great. Well, let's dive in. So Anonymous asked you how I can change a self-defeating belief. And he wrote, Dear Dr. Burns, I'm an avid listener of the Feeling Good podcast and for the last few weeks an avid user of the Feeling Great app. Thank you for your incredible work and dedication to making people everywhere feel better about themselves.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
We love hearing you make mistakes because it makes you feel so real. And we realize then Team CBD is kind of hard. Because if you're making mistakes, then it's okay for us to make mistakes. And I'm not sure if that makes me look like a fool, but if it does make me look like a fool, I'm in really good company. And it's really fun.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
It's freeing and kind of a joyful experience to be a fool and not have to be pressured to be perfect all the time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I won.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I think that was big.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I think it was huge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I think it was a lot of acceptance.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I absolutely do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I am.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Oh, you know, I've gone to a lot of your talks, David, and I've learned from every single one and I really admire them. I admire your talking. And I was wondering, is there something specific? Is there some specific feedback that you could give me? Because I love the way you talk and I always learn from you. I really admire you and I wish that I could be more like you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
So do you have anything specific that you could tell me about how I could improve?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay, yeah, well, it's true. I'm not very important, and then I give you freedom to go find them, and I'm just going to hang out with the lowlifes like Matt and Jason. Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I won.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Big.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Huge, although that one honestly was harder because I felt like my defender coming up like, and I had to hold that in.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
You know... Matt, I listened to your talk this afternoon, and I have to say that there was something obviously wrong, and you looked really foolish.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I have a question about self-defeating beliefs that I'm hoping you can address either on the show or on your website. You've mentioned on several occasions that self-defeating beliefs are the root cause of negative thoughts and consequently of negative feelings. Yet to me, it doesn't feel like self-defeating beliefs are really addressed enough on the podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I mean, I am really an important person. I talk a lot, and I'm in high demand. I actually don't have time to talk to you because I need to go hang out with the other very, very successful people in the world.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, okay. Well, Matt, who won that?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Yeah, that was superb, I think. What do you think, David?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
There seem to be only a handful of episodes covering the topic. It also seems there's a very limited toolbox of methods to use on self-defeating beliefs, almost like dealing with them is considered an afterthought. If self-defeating beliefs really are the cause of all, shouldn't the primary focus be on defeating them first and only then on defeating negative thoughts?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Oh, goodness. Yes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
I'm just a little bit lost when it comes to defeating self-defeating beliefs, which seem to be way harder to deal with than negative thoughts. Any insight or thoughts on the subject would be greatly appreciated. Sincerely, Anonymous
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well, Matt has already put a great deal of work in responding to this question, so I pass it to you, Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Well, I think we've come to the end of today's podcast. And I want to really appreciate everything that everyone has said and the topics that we've talked about have been really – like someone – the person who wrote Anonymous that we didn't give self-defeating beliefs a deep enough dive into the subject. We definitely did do that. And I want to thank you, Jason, for keeping us on track with –
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Hiran May's question, he came from Basel, Switzerland, looking for something specific, and you made sure that he got what he asked for. So we really appreciate your focus on that detail.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Why not?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Okay. Thank you so much. Till next time. This has been another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
That's your elderly weird voice? Okay. Well, I want to welcome you, David. We have Matt May with us and Jason Minow, who I'll introduce in a minute. This is Episode 419. And we're also inviting everyone from throughout the United States, Canada, Mexico, all of Latin America, Europe, Southeast Asia, throughout the entire world and galaxy. Today is an Ask David episode.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
What I learned from you before is the equation that a self-defeating belief plus an event causes a negative thought or cognitive distortion, which then leads to the emotional suffering.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Barofsky, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
419: Ask David: Changing an SDB; Intense Public Speaking Anxiety
And we also have a person who has been on our podcast before. Jason Minow. Jason, you were on before when you were talking about your personal history, which was really interesting and appreciated you. And Jason works for the Feeling Great app. He's the AI and product guy, but he's really the everything guy. So welcome, Jason. We're happy to have you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Hi. Hi, Rhonda. Hello, Rhonda. Hello, Angela. Hello, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Oh, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Oh, okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
414: All About Coaching: What Is it? Is it Different from Therapy?
Yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Well, at some point in our discussion, Werner, you said that you were going to be coming up to attend David's intensive at South San Francisco in August. And you said, oh, it would be so great if you did the driving to and from the intensive. And Werner stayed with me in our guest room. And so that was the goal of our work together.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
That was one of the goals is that eventually it would lead to me driving to and from the intensive. which is about an hour from where I live. And so the specific moment in time was really just imagining driving to and from the intensive.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Okay. Well, the bridge is going to collapse.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
95. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Other people or other drivers, other cars will make the bridge unstable.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Make the bridge unstable.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And that was 100%. I'll have a heart attack. I'm so dumb for not driving on the overpass.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah, I'm so dumb for not driving on this overpass from 580 to 24.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I believe that 100%. Things are embarrassing. I'm an ass. I believe that 100%. I can't do this. Then the next one was not all of these are a hundred percent.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
The rest, all the thoughts less than I'm about to say are a hundred percent. Um, so then the next one was not only will I have a heart attack, but I'll have a heart attack and die. And the other people in the car with me, like Werner and Lee will see me at my worst. I need to know the exact route before I drive anywhere. And I'll get into an accident. And I believe this one, 95%.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I'll stop on the middle of the bridge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Because what I've been doing was driving about a half hour out of my way to avoid that overpass. which sometimes can really be a hassle. Well, all the time it's really a hassle to drive a half hour out of my way. And I wanted to stop doing that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Well... The empathy was really important because I had to trust Warner enough to be pretty vulnerable with him and open up about literally my worst fears. And, I know Warner casually before this, but going through the empathy, I felt much closer to him. And that made it more willing to let down my facade and my sort of tough girl image and talk to him about what I was really thinking and feeling.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
So that was really important.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah, otherwise it wouldn't have worked. Otherwise it would have just been a cover-up. And we wouldn't have gotten to the real issue.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Because I wouldn't have shared my true thoughts. I wouldn't have shared my true thoughts or my true feelings. I would have kept them more hidden. Because if I didn't trust him, I wouldn't have been honest with him. And I couldn't have done real work if I wasn't being honest.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Right. If I didn't feel trusting with Werner, I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have done the exposure. I wouldn't have driven to and from the intensive.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
It made it actually a little harder.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yes. Yeah. Although I couldn't have done that with two nicer, less judgmental, more unconditional loving people. So it wasn't anything that they were doing. It was all coming from me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Oh, that's really neat.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Right. But that wasn't enough. Werner made a really good point. I mean, that was enough for me to be honest. But as we went through the daily mood log and got to the point in the process where I was challenging these thoughts, then I could create other positive thoughts that were more nurturing instead of thinking I'm going to have a heart attack.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And Warner did a lot of help to guide me with this. I thought. I'm going to have uncomfortable feelings in my body and it might not feel comfortable. I might feel fear. I will feel fear. I will feel uncomfortable, but I'm also capable of driving.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I think I said I'd be capable of driving anywhere.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Because I would drive.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah, like I would drive over that overpass from the 580 freeway to the 13 freeway. That one in particular, I would drive over it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Well, the sadness is that I really want to have more freedom and be less dependent on other people to drive.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Well, I don't want to cause anyone, I don't want to create an accident. I don't want to kill anyone. I don't want to feel the I don't want to experience the pain or the discomfort. I want to be safe. I want to be cautious. I don't want to do anything that causes another driver to lose their control.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Um, because they're, they're really limiting. It's limiting my life. I have friends who live farther away from where I live that I don't go visit because I'm, I'm too afraid to drive. I have too afraid to drive there. And, um, you know, Michael's getting tired of driving all the time and he needs a break and it's limited my life.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
It is really good to have you on. And so can I tell you how it began? And we've changed the format of our Wednesday group so that— I can tell you how it began.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And I want to work on overcoming that and having more freedom and control.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah, I don't want it too low, but I don't want it too high.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
No, I want to do it. I want, I'm a hundred percent in.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Oh, is that really how it started?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Oh, okay. Even though women give birth, how is it that men took a rib out from a man and created a woman when it's women that's actually the birth givers? But anyway, that's another topic.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I actually love this method because it just goes to see, you can see how invalid the thought is. I was labeling myself dumb. It was all or nothing thinking that it's, you know, I'm either always, you know, I'm all dumb or I'm not, you know, there was no shades of gray within it. Overgeneralizing, like from one feared moment to all moments are going to be fearful. And one time I was,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
challenge that all the time I'm going to be dumb because I'm challenged. It was, it was mental filter. I was ignoring, um, all of the positives. I was just thinking about all this, the negatives and the scary part of it. I was discounting the positives. I was insisting that whatever I did correctly about driving didn't matter. Um,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
It was mind reading because I was assuming that other people around me were reacting negatively to me as I was driving. It was magnification and minimization. I was magnifying the problems that could occur and I was minimizing my actually driving skills. It was emotional reasoning because I was feeling scared.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And then I reasoned with my fear and turned that into kind of attacking myself and calling myself dumb.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
OK, well, we changed the format of our Wednesday group so that each person, each participant in the group is asked to teach a class. And I asked them to pick a topic that challenged them or that they really loved or that scared them, but something that they could throw themselves wholeheartedly into teaching. And so Werner said that he would teach a class on getting over driving phobia.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And it was a should statement. Like I shouldn't be worried about, I shouldn't feel dumb about driving over this overpass. And I was blaming myself. So it was self-blame.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
That was actually a pivotal moment in our work together because when you, you know, you expanded it actually when we were doing it together. It's you, it's you, you're a little girl. What age could you be where you're just, free and happy. And, and, and so I identified, maybe I'm about eight years old and, and I say all these mean things to your eight year old self.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And I, I just felt so protective of that little girl and sad. And like, I would never talk to a child that way. Like I, I was like, no, Werner, I can't do that. No, I'm not going to do that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Because he has expertise in it and not jokingly said, well, if you need a subject, can I be your subject in the class? Because I kind of have a driving phobia. And he was like, oh, let's do some work together. And I thought, oh, do I really want to do that? Okay, I'll do it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I'm being really mean to myself, and I want to be kinder to myself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah. I'm really good at having other people take care of me and drive me places, but that doesn't make me dumb. I'm actually quite smart at working my way through my anxiety, even if it is through safety behaviors.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Well, I mean, honestly, it is kind of dumb. And it is a fact. And I can accept that I'm dumb about this situation. And I can also accept that I want to change it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah. I mean, I think if you can really, for me, if I can really feel the acceptance, it's always going to be huge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
David, you're dumb because you have the fear of heights.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah, that was much huger.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah. I mean, honestly, Warner, it bothered you more than it bothered me that I called myself dumb. Yeah. And I accept that it is kind of dumb. And? Yeah. It is something that I want to overcome anyway.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I called myself an ass and I wanted to stop that more. But I did think the whole process was kind of dumb. Like I grew up in San Jose, California, and I used to drive to Santa Cruz. You have to go through the Santa Cruz Mountains.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah, Highway 17. When I was in high school, at a drop of a hat, I would drive to Santa Cruz.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I had no fear. I would drive to Santa Cruz. We'd go to the beach. We'd get a hamburger and we'd drive back. And I had no fear.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Right. I had a super fun, yeah.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah. And I have a friend now who lives in Santa Cruz that I don't go visit because I'm afraid to drive on Highway 17. Or I go way, way, way, way out of my way, which takes like about three hours.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Uh-oh. Yeah, we're just going to go driving with me. Well, so eventually what – like this was really critical, all of the methods that were used. And I don't know if you want to go over it. Werner and I created an anxiety hierarchy too. And – go ahead, Werner.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And I knew I was going to have to drive home from the intensive at night and I was going to drive over the five, this overpass from five 80 to 13 to 24 from five 80 to 24. And I thought, Oh, I don't want to do it the first time with Werner in the car. And I don't want to do it the first time with at night and it's going to be dark and scary. So the Sunday before the intensive started I,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I went to this overpass, you know, and I, you know, there's two lanes. And usually when I drive toward this overpass, I'm in the left lane, which I can then swerve around the overpass and go the half hour out of my way.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
But I forced myself to be in the further right lane so that I couldn't escape. And it was during the day I was by myself. We had already done these three cognitive exposures, these imaginal exposures. And, and I had that thought, I'm going to feel bad. My heart might be pounding and I might feel yucky, but I'm still going to be able to drive. I'm still capable of driving.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
So I just kept telling myself, I I'm, Even if my heart's pounding and I'm feeling bad, I'm still going to keep driving. And then I forced myself to be in the lane that I actually couldn't escape from, and I drove over the overpass.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
It was probably 90 to 100. It was pretty intense.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah. Even though we did great work through this, I wasn't going to be like dancing over the bridge. I wasn't going to be like, woohoo, this will be fun, let's go.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Right. It's really unpleasant.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And the third time we did it, when Werner was asking me to rate how high the anxiety was, I was really surprised that the anxiety had gone down.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Well, driving to the intensive was nerve-wracking, but it was less nerve-wracking than I expected it to be. And I felt really proud and accomplished when we arrived at the South San Francisco Center. And I think we showed up 45 minutes early because I was so worried about getting there that I forced you and Lee to leave really early. 3.30 in the morning isn't that early.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
He showed up about, well, 45 minutes early. And, and then the, so then the first night when we were trying to drive, it was time to drive home. And one of the things on my anxiety hierarchy was kind of funny, but it was kind of true as I was like, I said, I'm getting ready to drive home and And I'm too afraid to drive home and neither Warner nor Lee will drive home for me. And I hate them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And, and so that's what that happened Thursday, Thursday. Yeah. Yeah, Thursday, it was foggy. It was really dark. I was tired. And I sat in the driver's seat and I thought, God, Werner and Lee, they're going to judge me. They're going to say I am really dumb and I'm an ass. We judge you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
But I couldn't, I couldn't drive home. And I just sat there in the car and, and, and I, I think I started crying a little and said, are you guys going to judge me if I can't, if I don't drive home? And they both were super loving and like, we're not going to judge you. And it is scary and it's dark and Werner volunteered to drive home.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
When I said I don't want to drive home, I promised that I would drive home on Saturday. Saturday was another late night. So then I had time to prepare myself. So every day I did drive there without any problem.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
easier every day yes driving there and um so by the time sunday came along it wasn't a problem whatsoever to drive and one of the things that happened was i don't normally drive the speed limit the speed limit 65 and i said to warner i'm never going over 60 i don't care I'm going to be driving, but I'm never going over 60. And Warner's like, well, can you drive the speed of traffic?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And I said, no, I'm not doing that. I'm never going over. But on Sunday, when it was my fourth time driving there, I was, I did go the speed of traffic. So I did go over. I was, I stubbornly, I went past my, my, my limit and I did drive 65, which Warner, you know.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
So Saturday night, it was still foggy and it was foggy. That's what happens in the Bay Area. I was tired, but I had made this commitment that I was going to drive home. And so I got in the car and I drove home and I was scared. My anxiety was way over 100 part of the time. And, you know, I wear contacts and sometimes I see halos around lights, like car backlights.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And I did see those halo lights around cars in front of me. And I just kept breathing and saying, I don't feel very good, but there's actually nothing I can do now. I, at one point I got, I, I said to Werner, I, I could pull, I, I could, I could pull over if you would drive the rest of the way. And Werner said, no, he wouldn't do that. So I just, I was like, okay, I better keep going.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
So I, that I was not driving the speed of traffic. I drove probably slower. I definitely drove slower. Um, But I did it. And then I did drive over the 580 24 overpass and, um, So and then we made it home and I didn't kill anyone. I didn't kill myself. I didn't have a heart attack. I didn't die. I didn't fall off the side of the bridge. I didn't fly off the overpass. None of my fears came true.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And I was I made a joke and said, oh, we could have a margarita as soon as we get home. But we didn't have a margarita. We just stayed up a little bit laughing and enjoying the the work from the intensive and talking about what we all did and what was so awesome about the intensive. And two were pretty tired and then went to bed.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
So you kind of have to drive – I have to drive to another city. Like I have to – if anybody knows the Bay Area, I have to drive to Emeryville, which is a little bit out of the way in order to get onto that 58 – 580 overpass. So – You know, I have to drive on the freeway to get to Emeryville.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And then I get to a place, you know, and the entrances you're entering, I had to merge four lanes to the left to get on to 580. And then I had to merge four lanes to the right. to get toward the 24, that overpass. So, so there were lots of opportunities for anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
It was a lot, it was, even though it was middle of the day on a Sunday, um, there was a lot of traffic when I was merging these four lanes to the left. And then there was like a little curvy, narrow curve. And then I had to merge four lanes to the right and make sure that I didn't get killed or kill anyone else when I was merging.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And then get on to the far right lane so that I wouldn't allow myself the opportunity to escape. And when I started it, I'm driving the very first time, I thought, I'm going to do it five times. You know, Warner gave me four times. As an, as a assignment, but I'm going to do it five. But one time I emerged and somebody honked at me and that kind of freaked me out.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
So by the time I finished the four, I thought, yeah, I don't need to be a superstar. He told me to do four. I'm going to do four and then go home.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And I think Werner talked to Michael. There's another reason I hate Werner and said, don't let Rhonda, if she pulls over and says she doesn't want to drive, don't give in. So we were going to visit our friends in Sacramento and Michael said, don't you need to practice driving? I was like, oh, did Werner tell you that?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And so I practiced driving and I drove that way and I didn't pull over and it all worked out.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I don't hate Werner, and I feel really proud of myself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
But I also know that I have to keep driving in order to keep it up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Oh, yeah, I want to do that for sure.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
knowing you and now knowing you even better and feeling close and yeah and Werner I can't actually thank you enough for I feel like you gave me back my life you gave me back a part of my life that I've lost over time and um I think that as I'm talking about it sounds easy but it wasn't easy it was hard to confront these things and it was even hard to go through the daily mood log it was hard to um you know I can say it really easily when we went through the cognitive
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
distortions but it wasn't easy it's painful it's hard it's challenging all of the methods that we did there are lots of tears and you were a really beautiful guide and therapist for me Werner and you really gave me back a huge part of my life that I lost I can't thank you enough well it was my my pleasure and my honor really yeah thanks everybody yeah and I'm sure our
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
I don't think so. No trainings coming up, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
David, how does somebody access it if they want to try it for free?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Thank you, David. Thanks for letting us share about this on the podcast. I hope it helps other people who have phobias, too. Take care. Bye-bye. This has been another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions. If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Oh, hello, David. And welcome to all of our listeners around the country, throughout the universe and the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good Podcast, and it is episode 418. Today we have a very special guest, Werner Spitzwaden, who David and I have known for a really long time. I met you at an intensive, I think, in 2014. And then you became a beloved member of the Tuesday group.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Barofsky, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
And now you are also a beloved member of the Wednesday group.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Well, you know, David, you probably remember before COVID, on one of the hikes we took, you did that with me. Yes, I remember that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
Yeah, and it was really helpful. And it was extra helpful because I was driving once a week to the Tuesday group and then to the studio at Moriarty.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
418: Phobias, Be Gone!
The Murrieta Studio, yes. So that cognitive work with you was very helpful. And you kept saying, it's not high enough, it's not high enough. And I did that for the entire hike, which is probably eight miles. And then with the constant driving, I stopped feeling so afraid to drive. But like Werner said, with COVID, I just stopped driving. And then it just keeps coming back.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I've also benefited tremendously in my work with clients. So much of what you say about anxiety and especially the hidden emotion technique have allowed my clients to have in almost every session, an aha moment. I have not yet been able to see a complete removal of symptoms in one session yet, but as a therapist, I too have many skills yet to improve and much work to do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
So in short, thank you so much for making your experience and your wisdom available for free. And thank you for doing it in such an engaging manner. Sincerely, Josh.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah, thanks, Matt. Okay, this is what Gray asked. Hi, David. This is a really tough question. That must have been a response to another dialogue between the two of you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
No, he just started it off as this is a tough question. Okay, let's see how tough it is. Music has a unique way of cutting straight to emotions for me, and it makes it especially hard to identify the thoughts behind them. My best way of explaining is with these two thoughts, which have to be viewed as a pair to get the emotional reaction. My life would be perfect if I had that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I'm so far away from that. Thank you so much for your response. And what does that have to do with music?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Last week we interviewed the Buddhist monk and we talked about attachment as a source of pain or a way of getting in the way of our happiness. That one, his first thought, my life would be perfect if I had attachment. whatever it was I had, is a perfect example of attachment and a source of pain because they have this desire for something that's outside of themselves.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And without that, whatever it is, they can't feel happiness. Instead of turning inwardly and being happy with who they are, with the relationships, the people in their life, or the love that they could be generating.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And soon Kai Chen will be co-teaching it with me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah. We're in November when this is published.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Oh, sorry.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I thought you were talking about me and I was just going to like blur out some more information because I actually want people to come to my group.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Okay, this is from Harold, who's asking about how do you respond to negative thoughts about the world as opposed to self-criticisms? And he gives the example, the world is filled with so little joy and so much suffering. And dear Dr. Burns, first of all, I'd like to thank you for all of your work and your outreach. Your books have profoundly influenced my thinking and value system.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I really admire how you exemplify both scientific rigor and human warmth. Finally, I want to thank you for promoting the idea of rejection practice. I haven't had a breakthrough yet, but some unexpected, very encouraging experiences have occurred. And I'm going to jump around because it's super long.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I recently tried the techniques in Feeling Great, but wanted to ask you for your opinion on a couple of negative thoughts I'm particularly stuck with. My issue is that I'm normally not attacking myself, but life in general. I keep on telling myself things like, life is just one crisis after another. Life is for the lucky ones. Really good things just don't want to happen.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Life is so much suffering and so little joy. And the depression itself makes these statements all the more convincing. Triggering events can be rainy holidays, romantic rejections, grant interview rejections, etc. So I think it would be helpful if in a podcast you could give more examples on resolving negative thoughts attacking life or the world rather than oneself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I also have a lot more questions for the podcast if you're interested. Thank you for reading this, and thank you so much again for all your work. With very best wishes, Harold.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I have no thoughts. No, go ahead, Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Sweet. Okay, let's read the first one. Dear sir, this is from Mamunur. Sorry, I apologize if I'm spelling your name wrong. Dear sir, I'm writing you from Bangladesh. Your book, Feeling Good, is a phenomenal work, and it has greatly helped in promoting the development of a healthy mind through logic and reason.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Sir, I have a question regarding benzodiazepine withdrawal, which is often prescribed for mental health disorders. Is there a specific cognitive behavioral therapy or a team CBT approach that can help in withdrawing from benzodiazepines?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
what grade did you give it ronda you matter matt and your grade matters i would give that an a absolute 100 i wonder if you could add a little more stroking oh that's a great idea and then it could have been a class but i was i was just like melting with warmth and compassion and
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Your guidance on this would be invaluable, as many people have been taking it for years, either knowingly or unknowingly, without being fully aware of its severe withdrawal effects. Sir, thank you for your kind contributions to humanity. Sincerely, Amuner.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah. I mean, I don't want to sound snarky. I just want to say that I've been up since 430 because I'm having people over dinner and I jumped up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah. So maybe I'm not thinking correctly because I'm sleep deprived. But we start – but there are some people who sincerely are worried about the world events or politics and has nothing to do with hidden emotion or dating or anything else. But they're just basically interested in the world and worried.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
But maybe those people aren't having negative thoughts and turning the negative thoughts against themselves. Is that what you're saying?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah, and getting to a place of acceptance, maybe.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I mean, issuing an invitation to see what they want to work on.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yes. Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah, I appreciate that. Let's go on to the next one. Okay. Are you guys ready for the next one?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Okay. Hi, David. You've mentioned a few times that there are only a handful of quote-unquote real psychological disorders with known causes as opposed to just a collection of symptoms. Could you please tell us a bit about how you would go about helping somebody with one of the real disorders like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder using team therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Most of the episodes with personal work seem to fall into the other category, anxiety, depression, compulsive behavior.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Well, I have to say, in over four years of doing these podcasts, this has never happened before. Okay, you guys.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah, we can keep that in.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
So do you want me to read? Do you want to just push ahead and answer it?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Okay. You've mentioned a few times, David, that there are only a handful of real, real as in quotes, psychological disorders. with known causes as opposed to just a collection of symptoms. Could you please explain a bit, tell how you would go about helping somebody with one of the real disorders like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder using team therapy?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Most of the episodes on the podcast with personal work seem to fall into other categories, such as depression, anxiety, compulsive behavior. So I'd be really curious about some examples. Best regards, Moritz.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And probably a lot of rejection experiences.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Anything you want to add, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Me too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Yeah. Well, you guys are just totally brilliant. And it's a pleasure to listen to you and even share the screen with you. We've been talking now for an hour and 20 minutes. So shall we say bye till now? The rest of the questions for later?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
No, because that's kind of a complicated question.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
I mean, the question isn't complicated, but the answer is going to be long-winded.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Okay, I'm going to stop you in 30 seconds. So Rhonda asked about the four feared fantasy techniques.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
That would be me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Give me 30 seconds. Go.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Okay, and that was 30 seconds.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Thank you so much, David. That's really appreciated.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
See you next time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Or a trialogue.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Okay, fellow trial loggers, have a good one. This has been another episode of the Feeling Good podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Hello, David, and welcome to our listeners around the country, the world, and the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good episode 422. And we've had a couple of episodes on spirituality, and now we're going to get grounded in reality. It's another Ask David episode, and we have Matt May joining us. Hi, Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And that was after using it for a short period of time. So it sounds like pretty quickly you felt addicted.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Barofsky, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Well, I had a similar experience when I was going through a bit of a crisis about four or five years ago, right before COVID. And I went to my primary care physician who was not a psychiatrist. And it actually wasn't my primary care physician. Somebody was standing in for her. And within three minutes, he offered me a benzodiazepine. And I was shocked. Like, really? Hmm. No.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
And I thought that wasn't so true anymore, but they seem to be being prescribed pretty frequently and regularly. But I don't have that much experience with benzodiazepine withdrawal. It seems like that's a medical, like you just described, David. It needs to be medically supervised in my understanding.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
Of course. And I want to start with reading an endorsement that we got from someone who wrote, Dear Dr. Burns, I'm sure you're swamped with substantive emails and fan mail, but I just want to express appreciation to you for all I have gained from your publicly available content. I have learned so much that I have applied in my personal life.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
But I've worked with a lot of people who are getting off SSRIs or they've been taking them for 20 years or a long period of time and they want to get off of them. And their psychiatrist referred them to me so that they could learn how to challenge and defeat their negative thoughts.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
422: Ask David: Getting off Benzos; Music and Emotions; Negative Thoughts about the World; and more
So they had the tools so that when they were tapered down off of their medications, they still had a means to overcome their depression. So it does seem like there's a place for it. team CPT when you're getting off medication, whatever it is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Matt, what do you think his should statement is? No one should hurt my family. I should protect my family.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Could this emotion be anger at his wife and family?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, a lot of people have a fear or a phobia about expressing anger.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
That is sadly so not true.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah. Okay, now let's go back to Brittany, who is asking if it's okay to enjoy or even prefer being alone. And she said, Hi, Dr. Burns. One thing I've accepted about myself is I really do enjoy being alone. I think in the past I would try to find a buddy in an uncomfortable situation like the first day of work or orientation or going to a baby shower alone, etc.,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
But now I find that I am most comfortable when I'm not included with everyone else. However, I think it can come across as off-putting to some people. Sometimes I get the feeling people see me excluding myself as rejection to them. That's not my intention, and nobody has ever actually said that, but it's a thought that pops up.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I'm just wondering if you think this form of acceptance is good or bad. I mean, it's been good for me. Maybe it's just bad for others. Brittany.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, piggybacking on what you said about healthy versus unhealthy acceptance... She's asking, is this form of acceptance that she enjoys or prefers being alone? Does accepting that part of herself, does that give her joy? Does that give her hope and intimacy and laughter and growth? Or is she hating that part about herself? Is she feeling hopeless, isolated, cynicism, resignation?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And if she can approach this with joy... Versus approaching it with self-hatred, then that's for her to figure out if it's healthy or unhealthy, right?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, that's what I mean. But she's also worried about other people judging her.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I think if we were going through the whole team model with her, I think it would be really fun to do a feared fantasy with her about that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I went camping with a group of friends last week. And at some point, some really fun thing was being planned. And I just like, wow, wow, wow. I said, I'm going to the tent. I need to be alone. I'm going to read. You guys can have fun without me.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
You know, it's rejuvenating, too, to be alone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
How would you describe the difference between healthy and unhealthy acceptance?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, for sure. I bet you have some interesting thoughts.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah. We have allergies in our family to cats, too, so I can't have them.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Oh, neat.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Oh. That's very curiosity generating. Shall we try a feared fantasy?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
So they judge you for being afraid of being alone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
For enjoying being alone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Oh, I appreciate the invitation, but I feel like I just want to be alone today at home, reading, relaxing by myself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, that is what I'm saying. You guys are really awesome and I love hanging out with you when I'm ready for it. And when I'm ready for it, I'll invite you to do something or I'll accept your invitation. But right now, it's just a different kind of a feeling I have about being alone.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Wow, immoral. That's kind of confusing. Could you tell me specifically what's immoral about being alone?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
That's really hard. That's harsh. A sociopath.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Oh, gosh. I really appreciate you, that you have the quality of loving being around people all the time. And sometimes I... I'm not going to say I wish I could be like you. I just really appreciate that that's one of your strengths, and that's one of the qualities I love about you. But right now, it's just not something I'm feeling. I'm feeling really happy being alone, and that's my choice.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I feel really sad that you're feeling hurt. And I'd love for you to tell me what it's like for you to be hurt because I don't want to go do the things that you're inviting me to do. What's that like for you that I want to do something else?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I kind of feel like I'm winning.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I think I'm winning huge.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I'm seeing the good in you that you're bringing to this situation instead of fighting you and asking you out of curiosity, like, what is it like for you? Yeah, right. That's opening an interesting discussion.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Okay, well, let's read what he has to say. John from Ireland asks, Help, I'm shoulding on myself again. What can I do? Please do another podcast on should statements. Hi, David and Rhonda. I love the podcast and the work you folks are doing. I listen to the podcast regularly, and you're both bringing such great benefits to the world. And we'd have to add Matt to that, too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I would love to hear another podcast on should statements. I've been going through a pretty bad and extended period of anxiety and depression in recent months. And I've been really trying to challenge my thoughts, but without much success. I am addicted to shoulds, unfortunately, and I beat up on myself relentlessly.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I've tried to do a cost-benefit analysis, and the motivation piece is a huge part of the benefit side that is keeping me stuck. I really want to give up on my should statements. They're making my life a misery, but I'm finding I don't want to let go of the motivation piece. I don't... I have a sample below.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I'd love to know if there are further steps or techniques I could use aside from the cost-benefit analysis to address the benefits and the perceived motivation piece so I can fully let go of the shoulds. Thanks so much. John from Ireland.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Okay, I just have one thing to say, Matt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, it looks like he's leaping to methods before he's done a lot of other work. You know, he's identified anxiety and depression, but I bet there's a whole bunch of other feelings that he has. And he's identified this one thought, I should have plans on Saturday.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And I imagine if he's coping with should statements, there are lots of other painful, negative thoughts related to each one of the feelings that he's having, since we believe that thoughts... drive feelings. It would be nice to identify some other thoughts that he has. And then we haven't done any positive reframing.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I mean, we know that he feels motivated by a should statement, but what else do we know that's really awesome about the feelings that he's having, or even that thought, I should have plans on a Saturday. So I'd want to take a step backward and
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
before doing cost-benefit analysis or any other method, and really explore with him what do these feelings and thoughts say about him that are really awesome and beautiful or give him an advantage or maybe they speak to his values. I think missing that piece is a huge mistake.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Yeah, thank you. Matt, what was the comment that you made? What you would want someone to ask themselves? What would be the problem in eliminating this thought or feeling?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Would you ever use the triple paradox, like the advantage of should statements, the disadvantages of eliminating them, what should statements say about them? That's awesome.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Would it ever be helpful to ask your patient or your client to you? Well, you decide how many minutes a day that you want to, you know, should yourself and you decide when you want to do it. And like I want to do it at breakfast when I'm having my coffee, reading my paper, I'm going to really should myself intensely then.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Thank you. It's my honor to be here with you. Goodbye. This has been another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
It sounds like unhealthy acceptance includes like resignation and like paralysis.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Like you can't move forward and healthy acceptance is like a joyful dance of acceptance.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
All right. Well, thank you for that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Okay, thanks for letting me know.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Hi, David. And hi, Matt May, who's here again with us, gratefully. I want to welcome everyone to episode 413 of the Feeling Good podcast. Hey, Rhonda. Hey, David.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Let's do that. So the first one is from Adolfo who asks about disturbing and unwelcome intrusive thoughts. Hello, Dr. Burns. My name is Rudy. First and foremost, your writings and podcasts have been life-changing for me. You're amazing. I was recently diagnosed with attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, ADHD, and I started experiencing intrusive thoughts around November of last year.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I thought I had obsessive compulsive disorder, but apparently intrusive thoughts are a common companion in ADHD. What would be the best course of action for defeating them? How would I apply team to them, team CBT to them?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Borowski, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
So I thought I would start our Ask David today with an endorsement from Brittany, who I believe is one of our questioners. And she wrote, Hi, Dr. Burns. I was listening to your podcast on self-acceptance, and it was really interesting hearing the results. I like how you said, just because we accept something about ourselves doesn't mean we still aren't working on it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Well, Matt sets a really high bar, and that was really interesting, Matt. I love that idea of offering not to get upset by the thoughts versus trying to eliminate them. One of the things I first learned about when I went to David's first meeting, Intensive in 2013 was that the beauty of Team CBT is if someone comes to you and they have a condition or a problem that you're not familiar with.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
In the past, I'd say, oh my God, what do I do? What do I do? And I'd flip out. But now if I just calmly take a deep breath and say, well, I know what to do.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
Actually, I'm going to go through the team model and do the testing and provide empathy and really hear and make a deep connection and then offer them an invitation and work through the specific moment in time and their feelings and their thoughts and positively reframe them. Yeah. I have worked with somebody who had very intrusive thoughts with the idea that he had OCD.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
And I can say that the team model with various methods, when we get to that component, that part of it, it does really work. So with the caveat of what you said, Matt, was really, really helpful, coming to peace with them rather than trying to eliminate them. I think just simply following the team model from T to M is a good strategy for any issue.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
413: Intrusive Thoughts; Alone and Liking It; Shoulds, and More
I think people confuse that a lot. I'll read her question later because it's our second question. That was a very nice endorsement on her part.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
I can't believe it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
417: Defeating the "Inner" and "Outer Bully"!
Hello, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
One was the cost-benefit analysis, which is a motivational tool we talked about last podcast. But what are the advantages and disadvantages of telling yourself, I should be a better mom? And there's a long list in the show notes that you can read hers. But what do you folks see as some of the advantages and disadvantages?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Or you can look at the show notes and see if you can find some that make sense.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Sure. What are some more advantages, Matt, benefits for her?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah, right. Any others you can think of, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Thank you, Owen, and we did include your excellent question, and we'll come to it shortly. So let's dive in.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah. Yeah, and she has a lot of benefits on the show notes. If you look at the cost-benefit analysis, I'm motivated to try to make her life rewarding and meaningful, and I try to fulfill my duty as a mom to my daughter who needs my support, and a lot of things like... A lot of benefits like that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And then what are some of the downsides of doing this, you know, telling yourself I should be a better mom?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She put, I feel guilty doing my own things. I feel guilty when I do not involve her in my activities. I cannot live my own life. I cannot be myself at times. She rules my life and she lives my life. I feel trapped and frustrated. I feel I need to constantly entertain her, and on and on. There's a long list.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And then she looked at the advantages versus the disadvantages and decided that the disadvantages are really much greater. And it turned out to be surprisingly helpful to her. Her mindset suddenly changed greatly after having struggled with this problem for years. For many years. But in addition, another point is that I pointed out to her that, well, then she revised it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
You know, you can see her revised version. What can she tell herself instead of, I should be a good mom?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah, just to reword it, but in a way that's not going to be so dysfunctional for you. And she said, I also want to treat myself the way I treat her. She has the right to live a happy and fulfilling life, but so do I. And she wrote a really beautiful refutation of that thought.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Oh, sure. You go ahead. It's beautiful. Yeah. Read it, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And that was beautiful. Yeah, and it was very helpful to her. And this is a very intelligent and hardworking and giving woman. But we took it then one step further that might be of some value too. But to make a long story short before we get on to that, if you are yourself in a give-get imbalance, that means you're always saying yes to people who make demands on you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And that can be a kind of addiction, but also a recipe for long-term unhappiness, as it was for this woman who I'm calling Suzanne or Susanna or something of that nature. And, yeah, Susanna, we're calling her Susanna. And the other dimension to it is that I reminded her that the daughter's playing mom and dad against each other, and so they don't work together as a team.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And that's where the daughter gets all of her power, by the tension between the mother and father who constantly disagree about on what strategy they should use with their daughter. And I told her, Susanna, who's the one I communicate with, that if you and your husband worked together as a team, you'd have far more power than your daughter does.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And her behavior would suddenly change in a positive way. But the reason she gets so ornery is because she has power, and all of her power comes from the disagreements between the two of you. And then Susanna told me, well, and she's very good with the five secrets, Susanna is.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And I said, you know, when you talk to your husband about the things that you're in conflict over, you could use the five secrets. And then she said, oh, I've tried that, and it wouldn't work. And I said, how much do you believe that? And she said, oh, 100%. He's absolutely impossible.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And then I pointed out to her that I had pushed her on multiple previous occasions to use the five secrets with her husband. And it was totally effective 100% of the time. And I reminded her of that. And she said, oh, my gosh, I forgot. And it's almost as if she was in a hypnotic trance, telling herself, you know, this is a hopeless situation. This is a helpless situation.
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412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
It's been going on for years. Nothing can be done. And she was just telling herself a lot of things that weren't. True, and she's a very honest person and a very open person, but you get into these spells that lead to conflict, marital conflict, and other spells that lead to panic and anxiety and other hypnotic trances that lead to depression.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
But now she's suddenly kind of been born again, and she says, I've been telling myself I can't do it. Now I'm telling myself I can do it. So stay tuned, and we'll get some follow-up from this very wonderful person. But I thought that that... Give-get imbalance would be a kind of a nice concept to bring to our listeners because there are several reasons people get into a give-get imbalance.
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412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And what are some of them, Rhonda and Matt? What are the characteristics of a person who gets into a give-get imbalance? And then secondly, what's the cure?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah. And it makes you feel good to say yes, because then the other person appreciates you and praises you and makes you feel special. Uh, right.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah. And, uh, But then you don't get, typically you don't get anything much, if anything, in return. And another reason people get into it is people might say, oh, can you do this activity with us? And then you get to thinking, oh, I don't want to miss out on the fun. I've got to go along with this and, you know, go to this activity or go to that activity.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And then the solution to it is what one of the feared fantasy techniques called no practice. You remember that one, Rhonda and Matt? No, I don't remember that. You don't? Matt, we're going to do a special recording tonight because Rhonda works late and I work late. And then we're going to do a special podcast recording tonight at 830. And we'd really like you to join us. Can you do that?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
But if you cared about us, you'd help us out. I mean, you've helped us out so many other times.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Okay, well, that's no practice. It's a bit funny, but it's a good technique to practice saying no and have somebody try to talk you into something and just be kind and persistent in saying no. And that's one of the solutions to a give-get imbalance. And it's also based on the Buddhist notion or perhaps also the Christian notion or perhaps also the Jewish notion. I don't know the...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
the mysticism behind all the different religions, but that we're all one. And the idea that you can make another person happy while making yourself miserable is not valid to my way of thinking, and that we either go up or down together. And so if you're making yourself miserable in order to please or serve some other person, you're probably not making them happy either.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And sometimes becoming assertive and sticking up for yourself a little bit in a dignified and loving but persistent way can actually lead to greater happiness for the other person in the long run as well, because you are not going to be carrying all this resentment and burned outness. So that's my little sermon for today, for whatever it's worth.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
So have you actually implemented that in your own life and not given in and not said yes so much?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah, that's right. You can call it selfishness training. And sometimes we all need a little selfishness training in order to be really loving to others. Well, let's push on here. We still have two good questions. In the next one, let's use the name Marvin for the next person. I've changed it here in the show notes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
By the way, dysthymia means chronic, mildish type depression.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
All right, I'll let you folks take first crack at this one.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
By the way, we're going to call it Feeling Great Therapy for the general public rather than Team CBT because people don't quite know what it is. It really isn't CBT, although it has a lot of cognitive therapy in it. Oh, Feeling Great Therapy. Okay. Yeah. I love that. Yeah, we should have like a Feeling Great Therapy Center. Oh, we already have one of those. Cool.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Sure. Now, Marvin's asking for some specific recommendations here. Where would he find this special kind of individualized therapy? And does it have a name?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah, that way he could get a feel for it. He's also written to me and he's in what I would call a – he sent me a long, long email that I mentioned last week. podcast that he's kind of in a blizzard of negativity, including anger and depression. And I think one very important thing is you can't get anywhere by working on a kind of an abstract level with
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
diagnostic terms and schools of therapy, but you have to zero in on one specific moment. I always tell people I can only help you for one five-second moment in your life, and I think Buddha had that exact same policy. You can only be helped to change yourself for one brief moment.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
But according to Buddhism, what somebody told me, you would know because I haven't studied Buddhism, you might know, Rhonda or Matt, but that if you could just change yourself for one, five seconds of your life, then you'd experience enlightenment and peace. And you wouldn't have to keep being reincarnated anymore.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And I first heard that from a fellow who just came up and started talking to me on the street. When I was in Bryn Mawr, a young fellow came up and started explaining that to me. And I didn't know who he was or why he was doing that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
But then, and it didn't seem to make any sense until then, you know, days later, I got to thinking about my practice and how right on that was, that you can only change yourself for one second, two or three seconds. But all of your problems will be encapsulated in that two or three second period. So if you say, here's one specific moment I had, and then I'll be glad to help you with that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And we can create a daily mood log and see what the situation was and what your feelings were and what your negative thoughts were and who you were interacting with. And then See if it's an individual mood problem or a relationship conflict and then come in with some specific tools first to melt away your resistance to change.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And secondly, and then if you really do want to change, then some specific tools. And we use over 140 tools in Team CBT or what we're thinking of changing the name to Feeling Great Therapy so it has an easier name. and you can eliminate your negative feelings for that one moment, then that same pattern, you'll see why you're depressed and angry and anxious.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Every time, it'll always be the same thing. The details will be different, but the basic pattern will be the same. And the method that works for you at that one moment will always work for you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And so when I'm working with people, that's what I always do when I encounter people who have this thing I've always called the blizzard of depression, where you get so overwhelmed because the patient is telling you like 30, 40, 50 things that they're mad about or upset about, and you get kind of short of breath even listening or trying to hear the whole story.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
But the solution is, you know, and this fellow is quite intelligent in fractal mathematics. I can't remember the name of it, but it's... But it's the idea that everything is captured in one brief moment, and that's true in nature. Like a tree, the leaves, it's always the same pattern repeating itself.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And if you look at a leaf with a powerful magnifying glass, the whole pattern of the leaf will always be repeated. fully represented in any tiny spot you look at. It's just the same pattern going over and over again. It's the same with our lives. And so that's the way you crawl out of, you know, a so-called blizzard of depression or anxiety.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And that actually is one of the keystones of what we call team CBT or feeling great therapy or whatever.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
My answer to that question is it would depend on whether or not the prisoners would be allowed to have an Internet connection, because I think you have to have that to use the app, right? Yes. And because it's a cell phone application, we hope to have it for computer as well. Right now we have it for iPhone and for Android. But I think that could be a great thing for any prisoners who want.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
It is. It's a relief, too, because if you're living in that blizzard or interacting with someone who's in that blizzard all the time, it becomes pretty unpleasant for everybody.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, thank you, Owen, for the kind comment, first of all, and the two great questions. First of all, we do have our first... data analysis from the latest version of the app where we're using Feeling Great AI. Our previous versions of the Feeling Great app didn't have full-blown AI, and now we're using full-blown AI, and we've actually trained our AI to be pretty much like David. We're trying to
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
take my identity and turn it into the the ai so so that when you're working with our bot it's pretty much almost identical to to working with david in in real time we're not doing therapy it's a self-help tool but we're trying to use all of the techniques including externalization of voices
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And whether you can do this solo, we have the answer to that because I just analyzed data on something like 200 patients the first time they sat down with the app. And so we just have... from them for about the first couple of hours that they were working with the AI to see what would be the effect of that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And the mean time that they spent on the app, the first time they sat down with it, was 72 minutes. And then we recorded the improvement in seven different negative emotions, depression, anxiety, shame, inadequacy, loneliness, hopelessness, and anger. And all of those emotions went down, I would say, to make a generalization, the mean was slightly over 50%.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
They all went down approximately the same with just a few percents, but it was a little over 50% within roughly one hour. Now, if you compare that,
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
to psychotherapy outcome studies, which are generally just focused on one emotion, like depression, over a period of, say, three months or six months or a year, or a lot of the outcome studies, two years, you see that fewer than 50% of the patients have even a 50% Improvement, you know, after a year and we're getting that within 72 minutes.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
So the answer is yes, you can do great things using the app on your own. But some people are definitely not going to respond to the app or to any single treatment. And they're a trained team therapist or maybe any therapist could help people get unstuck.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And keep in mind, never forget that the 95% of stuckness, when people fail with any type of therapy, it's because of resistance that has not been dealt with or recognized and certainly not eliminated by the therapist. People don't fail because of a lack of methods for the most part. They fail because their subconscious or conscious resistance hasn't been dealt with.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And then the answer to the externalization of voices, the app, we have trained it to do externalization of voices, and it does a nice job. The app is not yet fully enlightened, and a therapist can never bring a patient to a level higher than what you have achieved because water cannot rise higher than its source.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
There's always the danger that people are going to misuse a tool. So they may have strict rules about that in prison systems. But I think the... in some way, we're all in solitary confinement. We think we're interacting with each other, but much of the time, our ideas about what other people are thinking and feeling aren't even valid. But the app, I think, could do great for prisoners and
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And the AI that we've trained, it's about maybe 60% enlightened, but it's not in full-blown enlightenment yet. But it still does a beautiful job with the acceptance paradox, the self-defense, and the counterattack technique. And we're now training the app to see if we can get it to full enlightenment, which would be tremendously exciting.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And, of course, the thing that it's not quite grasping is the same as the limitation that humans have is the full-blown acceptance. They give a kind of a partial acceptance but not seeing the full acceptance. I could give you examples or something. But it's exciting, and it does a damn good job.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And it's exciting to think what the implications might be once the word gets out and people start using the app in large numbers. So far, we're not formally announcing its release, but it is available in app stores and in the... You know, both app stores, I should say, the Android and the iPhone. And then we'll have it for computer fairly soon as well.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah, I love your comments, Matt. I'll give it to Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I wonder, Rhonda and Matt, before we quit today, if we could make all this come to life by demonstrating an externalization of voices and the difference between, you know, a partially good response and the full blown and enlightened response. And if you guys are open to that, we might just need somebody's negative thought and then we could role play it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
any kind of prison including solitary confinement because there's a tremendous amount of material there to learn and you can change the way you you you think and feel and it would be really really fun to do a study like that and because the app collects data all the time and we could find out right away
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Okay, and that's a good one. That's real good. And then what's your core negative thought, Rhonda?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I don't matter. So which one should we work on first? I'm worthless. Worthless or I don't matter? Let's do I'm worthless. I'm worthless. OK, so, Matt, do you want to be someone who has the thought I'm worthless and be the positive thoughts and Rhonda and I will attack you and see if you can defeat us? That sounds great. Yeah. Okay, you want to start off now with the negative self.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
We'll sound like other people, but we're all named Matt, and Rhonda and David will be the negative Matt, and we'll speak in the second person, you. And then Matt will try to defend himself in the first person, I. So we'll see what happens. Matt, sorry to tell you, but— You can start it off if you want, Rhonda.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
You'll be the negative and Rhonda and I will be the positives. And you can hit either version that you want, either one of us.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
if it's helpful to people and to what degree, and also get feedback on if it should be modified to be simplified or whatever. The reason I wrote the book Ten Days to Self-Esteem was because I wanted a super simplified book
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412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah. And the thing was there, this is like how the how the AI works. Rhonda is not not fully enlightened and that you had a lot of defensiveness there.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And of course, you're hurt and angry at yourself. And then, you know, all the time, all the time, some of the time. You had a good idea, but you didn't have the spirit of real acceptance. Right. So I'll give it a shot here. I'll be the positive man.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, I've suspected that about myself for a long time now. Can you tell me what you noticed? I'm not that bright either. And so in what way did you, you were saying that I'm screwed up? Because I do make a lot of mistakes. I surprisingly, for such a worthless person, I enjoy a lot of successes and wonderful experiences in my life and with my clinical work too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
But what really do you mean when you say I'm I'm worthless, then I'll be able to respond a little better.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah, that's right. It's just not the words, it's the spirit. And we hope that the artificial intelligence will be intelligent enough to learn that. We don't know yet. Yeah. But, you know, it's just like a student in the Tuesday class. We have to spend a lot of time training it and explaining things to it. But let's try. You want to try it, Rhonda, on your own thought?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah. Okay. Well, we can. You want to start in your positive self or your negative self?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And the thought is you don't matter? Yeah, okay. You want to be the negative self? You're the negative Rhonda, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
version of cognitive therapy and that book is kind of at the fourth or fifth grade level in terms of the language in it and there's just a few paragraphs in each chapter and a lot of interactive exercises to do so we might have to create a you know, like a simplified version of the app that would be suitable for teenagers or people without a lot of education.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, you know that I'm also the negative Rhonda, and I heard you bantering with that. that other negative Rhonda, and kind of winning. But the fact is, Rhonda, you don't matter.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Oh, sure, you're on the Feeling Good podcast, the host of the Feeling Good podcast, and you're a psychologist, and you have a social work degree and all of that, but just you know in your heart of hearts that you don't matter, and you better admit it, sister.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Who won?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Big or small? Big. Big or huge? I thought that was huge. Yeah, I thought it was huge, too. So that would be modeling with both thoughts kind of different ways of acceptance. And it's not just using the words. It's having the feel that when you go into an enlightened state, those thoughts that used to hurt you so much, they have lost all of their power.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
It's like hitting home runs at the baseball stadium. in baseball over and over again, that you become kind of impenetrable through total acceptance. And it's really joyous, and it's one of the so-called great deaths that the Buddha talked about 2,500 years ago. This is the death of the special self. and giving up the idea that you are special or that you're going to become special.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And that you are, in fact, just average or in many ways below average. And it's hard to explain. It's like seeing the Grand Canyon for the first time in person. And if you've ever seen it in person, you've seen a postcard of it. You still don't know what it is. You haven't had the experience yet.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And getting self-acceptance, complete self-acceptance for the first time with a feeling of joy rather than a feeling of shame, a feeling of liberation rather than being trapped or inhibited or held back in some way. It's just a fantastic, fantastic feeling. And I think earlier, Rhonda, you were using the idea of be specific, and I didn't comment on it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
But one of the things that's been my salvation is acceptance and then also be specific. Because, you know, I don't have to accept the fact that I have some kind of adequate self because I don't even know what that means. It's just kind of nonsensical. But if you say, David, you fall short in a lot of specific ways, I'll say, oh, man, practically every way.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And it's just a miracle that people seem to love and accept me and respect me. So I'm just effing lucky that people have such low standards. But yes, there's nothing about me that couldn't be improved a lot. And just feel grateful to be alive and know other people who are, you know, trying to sell themselves as special or better than anyone. Also, there's a kind of freedom in that.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
At our hospital in Philadelphia, you know, a quarter of our patients couldn't read or write. So we just simplified the 10 secrets of, there were the 10 cognitive distortions and put everything in simple language and it worked great but what are you guys thoughts about that about using the app in prisons or in solitary confinement
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
What is the Buddha? A dry shit stick? Is that the answer? Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Well, once when I dropped Jill Levitoff at her house, we'd been at some function and for some reason I was driving and we were talking about this idea. And Jill was saying, I feel so sorry for these people who haven't yet accepted themselves as just, you know, below average shits. I know.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
It's really a relief. Yeah. When you say things like that, people don't get it. What are they talking about? That doesn't sound any good. Right. Well, thank you, everybody, for listening today. I hope some of the nonsense that spouted from our mouths made sense or was interesting or entertaining, if nothing else.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And we really appreciate all of you and the great questions you send today on, you know, using the app and artificial or in... You know, in prison when you're in solitary confinement, what a cool question was that? And then ask about a give get imbalance and and, you know, asking, you know, you know, all kinds of cool, cool questions. We enjoy shooting the breeze and. Hearing from you.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
So please keep connecting. Leave your comments on the podcast. By the way, these are all on YouTube now. So you can see us in video. And if you're thinking I look like crap the last couple of weeks, it's because I see I have this shirt. This is the same shirt I've been wearing for six or eight weeks when I go out. And it's a dress shirt. So it's really dorky. to be out jogging in this shirt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
But it's because it's light in color and because I've had three ticks got embedded in me and I had to take antibiotics and get them dug out in the emergency room and stuff like that this season. So I just didn't have time to put a nice shirt on. So this is the real David here. with this fancy shirt. You know, it has a special brown color here, which is like sweaty stain.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
So I hope you're impressed with my dress shirt.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Well, it's still like it's, you know, I think I could wear it for a year, another year. All right. 50 times. I believe in you. That's funny. But anyway, I was slogging just before the podcast, and I had to race in to get here on time. I'll try to wear a nice colorful shirt next time.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And thank you, Max, in the background, who's watching over us like a loving mother hen and keeping all our technology going so we can bring you video and audio now for our podcasts and other stuff that we're recording, too.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
I wonder if there could be a modification of the way people receive the app, like the prison could receive it and then make just that available to prisoners who desire it.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah, right. Well, if there was any interest among prisons or prisoners or something, I could talk it up with our app team, but I don't like to chase people with things, especially things that require a lot of time and effort.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
But if there was some interest in it, it would be, I think, fairly interesting, even just knowing how depressed and angry and anxious and violent and suicidal people are feeling.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
To relieve your suffering, relieve your depression, your anxiety, your feelings of worthlessness, your feelings of rage. Right. Frustration, helplessness.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Okay, so we should answer that, should we? Should we have the listeners just take a piece of paper and turn off your device for a minute and write down, what are the distortions in I should be a better mom? And then the question is, how is Susanna going to get out of this trap? But I can give you a follow-up. Okay.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay, welcome back to the show. Did you turn your device off and write some things down on a piece of paper? No, you didn't? I can see that you didn't, but I love you anyway. What are the distortions in I Should Be a Better Mom?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
That's true. Any other distortions? Is that the only one? No. Any other distortions? I see a bunch more. Oh, a bunch more. Let's take turns.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah. What did you find out in that one? What distortions, Matt?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah, and all the amazing things she's done for her daughter. Yeah. What else do you see there?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I'll take a turn and add— emotional reasoning. I feel like I'm not a good enough mom. So I must not be and I should be a better mom. How about you, Matt? Any others?
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And your turn. So it seems...
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Yeah, absolutely.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Right, and then it's my turn. How about self-blame? And why is that? She's beating up on herself because her daughter's misbehaving. Well, a give-get imbalance is a special hell for people who are overly nice, who struggle with anxiety disorders.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
Niceness is, to my way of thinking, one of the major causes of all forms of anxiety because you're constantly trying to please other people and not attending to how you feel inside. And and then you can also feel like what you were talking about last podcast, the approval addiction, Matt, that I need everyone's approval.
Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
412: Ask David: Give-Get Imbalance; Best Anxiety Treatment; Externalization of Voices; and more
And I always have to please other people, even at the expense of my own needs and feelings. And so you're always trying to give, give, give to others. and expecting some wonderful thing in return, which you never get. And so you end up being burned out and angry and resentful. and very anxious, as this woman, Susanna, has been feeling. And a couple tools that were very helpful to her.