Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy
431: Screen Addictions, Featuring Brandon Vance, MD
Mon, 13 Jan 2025
Overcome Your Screen Addictions! Featuring Dr. Brandon Vance Today we interview Dr. Brandon Vance, the Founder of the wildly popular Feeling Great Book Clubs and many other psychoeducational groups for the general public as well as shrinks. Today, he tells us about his latest group designed for people with the newly named "screen addiction." Dr. Vance formed this group because of many recent research studies suggesting a link between the time spent with social media sites and increased feelings of loneliness and depression in teens and adults. Although correlational studies do not prove causality, many of these studies are compatibles with the hypothesis that excessive time on social media may reduce the quality of moods as well as personal relationships, to say nothing of the potential negative impact on work and productivity. On the podcast he gave examples of how technology has been built into our lives, and how eqsy it is to pick up your cell phone, even in the company of others. However, screen addiction can also involve tlevision binge-watching, video games, and more. We demonstrated an example of the Devil's Advocate Technique, one of many techniques help combat positive thoughts that suck us into screen addictions. For example, Rhonda loves and frequently gets tempted to binge-watch a show on wedding dresses (Say YES to the DRESS), because she tell herself things like this: This is really fun. Would i like that dress? Would it look good on me? Maybe my wedding dress wasn't as pretty. I'll only watch for a minute. I need to relax. This is not hurting anyone. My husband won't mind that I'm gone. I can talk about the dresses to some of my friends. I work night and day and deserve to watch. in the live role-play, 'Rhonda was able to defeat these tempting thoughts "huge." If you think this might describe you, or benefit you, or just be fun and educational, here's the coop about the Screen Addiction Group, as well as his next Feeling Great Book Club and his Five Secrets Deep Practice Group. Free Yourself from Mindless Tech Use (Jan22-Feb26, $180 for 6 hour-long sessions). Do you get on your phone every time you have a spare second? Do you think social media will make you happier and yet you feel more lonely or stressed? Do you stay up late fighting video game zombies and then turn into a zombie the next day because you're so tired? This 6-week online class will teach you powerful Cognitive Behavioral Therapy techniques (such as Self-Monitoring, Triple Paradox and Devil's Advocate) led by Brandon Vance, MD, all within the accountability and support of a group of peers to Free Yourself from Mindless Technology Use. The Feeling Great Book Club (two groups: Feb 24 - May 12 and Feb 26 - May14. $168 for 12 80-minute sessions, sliding scale). Join together with people all over the world in this popular online class in a book club format, to read the Cognitive Behavioral Therapy book Feeling Great by David Burns, MD, and learn and practice tools to break through depression and anxiety to live a more joyful and relaxed life. See live expert demos and join smaller breakout groups to practice what you learn in this sliding scale weekly online group. 5 Secrets Deep Practice (Jan 15 - Feb 19th and Mar 5 - Apr 9, $180-480 sliding scale, 6 90-minute sessions). David Burns, MD laid out 5 key ingredients that make communication highly successful to get closer to each other, even in conflict situations. Learn to use these 5 Secrets in your own life with expert demos and instruction and 1-1 practice in this 6-week online group. Rhonda and I strongly recommend these groups because active practice is the real key to learning and personal growth The support of others in the group can also lift morale and enhance accountability. If you want to change your life, this is a great option. Dr. Vance is not only a tremendous visionary and teacher, but he also has a huge heart. You'll find that these groups are ridiculously cheep but incredible treasures, and you can also contact him if any group looks appealing but you currently have limited means. Thank you for joining us today! Warmly, Rhonda, Brandon, and David
Hello, and welcome to the Feeling Good Podcast, where you can learn powerful techniques to change the way you feel. I am your host, Dr. Rhonda Borowski, and joining me here in the Murrieta studio is Dr. David Burns. Dr. Burns is a pioneer in the development of cognitive behavioral therapy and the creator of the new Team Therapy.
He's the author of Feeling Good, which has sold over 5 million copies in the United States and has been translated into over 30 languages. His latest book, Feeling Great, contains powerful new techniques that make rapid recovery possible for many people struggling with depression and anxiety.
Dr. Burns is currently an emeritus adjunct professor of clinical psychiatry at Stanford University School of Medicine. Hello, David, and welcome to all of our listeners around the country and the world and throughout the galaxy. This is the Feeling Good podcast in episode 431. And that third voice you heard is Brandon Vance, who is a very beloved Team CBT psychiatrist.
He's the founder of the Feeling Great Book Club. He also does lots and lots of team-related educational groups like the Book Club and the app group, and you do five secrets practice. Yeah, those are awesome.
I would say a pioneer in new ways of developing mental health to people in need and getting away from this traditional 50-minute hour once a week where you go and talk to one person and it goes on and on.
And it's more like working with a group of people based on reading a book like Feeling Great or Feeling Good or using the app or something else and meeting weekly for kind of like 80-minute inexpensive sessions to learn about the to practice techniques, to connect with other people who were struggling with some of the same things.
And it's very exciting because it's thinking outside of the box and thinking about new and more fun and more effective ways of being successful.
helpful to people and community and creating a sense of community at the same time, instead of a sense of isolation where you go and you sneak into the shrink's office and lie on the couch for 50 minutes and hope nobody knows you're there and stuff like that.
Nice. So much, David. That was so nice.
Yeah.
You've really inspired me because you lay out things in such a clear way and such an accessible way. And I know you all have talked before about just reading, feeling good, that there have been studies on that as being very helpful in terms of depression. And I've also found that groups and the pandemic also inspired me with that, that
coming together in groups of people has all those added benefits of community and of support and even an accountability. So that's been very fulfilling to run some groups.
Yeah, not only accountability that they get in the groups for following through on homework and doing what you have to do to change, but also I'm seeing more and more that, you know, why have so many religions sprung up?
Well, because people want something to believe in, to give meaning to your life, but they also want to have a community of people to relate to through your local Lutheran church or synagogue or church. you know, whatever, people are kind of craving the connection with other people. It's kind of a boring thing to say, I guess, but it's been occurring to me a lot that people really want this.
They want some kind of structure, social structure, that they can get together with similar people with similar beliefs and connect and learn and grow and And share and be vulnerable and open and get close to people and not have to be... Taking it all the time.
You guys, before we dive in, do you mind if I read an endorsement? Because it is also about a group. And this woman, Anandi Gray, who's a licensed professional counselor, wrote, Hi, Dr. Burns. Just a note about your book, The 10 Days to Self-Esteem. I'm working with a young woman who lives in Eastern Europe, and she bought a digital version, which was the only way she could get it where she lives.
She writes the exercises in the e-book and it works really well. Also, although English is not her first language, she mentioned how much she enjoys your humorous, encouraging comments. Thank you for the e-book version of 10 Days to Self-Esteem. It's such a good book, easy to use, super effective. And it was my very first introduction to the wonderful world of Team CBT.
And that was from Anandi Gray.
Well, thank you, Anandi Gray. We really, really appreciate your kind comment and the joy and good that you're spreading through your therapy efforts. And please give my warmest regards to your patient and say how cool it is that she made that endorsement and shared that information. We're passing it on to our many fans, all 12 people who are listening to the podcast today.
And Brandon, you're about to start a new group that you've called Free Yourself from Mindless Tech Use.
Yeah.
I'm wondering where you got the idea to do that.
Well, from a few places. The first inspiration was a patient of mine, and we can call him Elias, and he has OCD and we've done a lot of exposure therapy. In fact, he does exposures every day, which is wonderful. But then after he had made lots of progress with that, he began to talk about that his phone, he just used it all the time.
And Instagram reels, these short little video clips where he'd spend sometimes hours looking at those. And then he'd realize afterwards, gosh, I spent all this time and I would like to not be doing that. And yet I need Instagram to communicate with people. And so what do I do?
And so, of course, having studied with David, I took a paradoxical approach and we looked at the positives of him doing that. And then we did a bit of a role play. about triple paradox, and we can get into that later. But he, at that point, wasn't very motivated. He couldn't talk back to those reasons to be using Instagram Reels. And so I didn't push it. I didn't try to get him to change.
He's also a very social person, and I thought that a group contest could be really helpful to him. Meanwhile, I was asking, so we have a baby who's now 21 months old.
That's cool. A little lion. A little lion. Yeah.
Yeah. He was met David before. And yeah. And my wife, Rosa, and I were talking about parenting, and I've wanted to be a parent for, you know, 20 years. And I thought I'd be a really wonderful parent, and I think I'm pretty good. But I was asking her, what do you think I could do better in terms of parenting?
Just wanting to keep in touch with each other as we go on this journey of bringing up Lansipa. And she said... I'd like to not have him see you using your phone. And boy, that just brought up a lot of sadness. And I realized that I was like using my phone around him, like looking at my phone and he was experiencing me some that way.
And it was for all kinds of different reasons and I can give excuses and reasons, but really I don't need to be doing that around him. And I don't want to be, but I was doing it mindlessly. Part of this inspiration for the group is for myself, for me to stop doing that, and also to give me motivation and accountability to stop doing that.
I noticed that, and this goes for a lot of my patients and a lot of people I see, that it's really easy when one's waiting in line or even using the bathroom to pick up your phone and look at something, whether it's checking email, whether it's a reel on Instagram or Facebook, whether it's some message or some news or quote doom scrolling, people going through negative news.
And these devices were meant to addict us. And they literally teach principles of addiction in developing tech programs. And so I thought that I've heard that from so many people and to be able to free ourselves from what I'm calling mindless tech use, I think
A lot of times, tech is built into our lives, and we may use it for communication, we may use it for work, we may not be able to completely give it up. And so this group isn't oriented toward that, but it's oriented towards, in a sense, freedom, being able to make an intentional choice about using it or not.
Ken, can you tell me, since I don't have a cell phone, I'm probably more naive about this idea of... What are we calling? Mindless tech use. Give me some more examples. So like elderly, half-demented folks like me will know what mindless tech use is.
Yeah, so it can range from binge watching a TV series, watching something, and then the way Netflix and other online kind of TV programs go is that they'll just go to the next episode, right? And you'll have cliffhangers and you'll want to see the next episode and you see the next episode. So some people stay up until three or four in the morning binge watching TV.
It could be playing video games and getting consumed by those. It could be spending every spare moment connected to your phone. And it was heartbreaking. A few months ago, I was in a diner, and I saw a family walk in, three kids, two adults. They sat down at booths, and the two adults just started staring at their cell phones.
And the kids were crawling all over the place trying to get their parents' attention. And the parents were so absorbed in their phones. I don't know what they were doing with their phones. So those kinds of things... to free ourselves up from that. And as I say, they're quite addictive. Principles of addiction, a substance is more addictive the quicker it hits your brain after using it.
That's part of our learning. So if we're reinforced right after doing some behavior, we tend to do that behavior more. When cocaine was refined from coca leaves, it became much more addictive. Same with alcohol, same with heroin and so forth, right? And they've used those principles in developing things with screens. So video games and TV programs and phone reels and stuff.
So you get these short bites of something that can be reinforcing or can create an intense emotion like news that's really bad. And that then encourages us to do that thing again and again. And it can be very hard to let go of and also hard to get perspective on. David, you've mentioned... how the cognitive distortions can be, in a sense, the opposite in addictions.
So for example, I might, if I'm depressed, I might have a negative view of the future, or I might mental filter and only look at the negative things. Whereas if with addictions, I might forget the consequences of something. I might filter out the negative and only look at the positive. So...
if we can take a step back and monitor and look at our behaviors, which is part of what we'll be doing in this group, to get a clear view of what we do and do we actually want to continue using these things mindlessly, quote mindlessly, or do we want to develop more intention about it and also free ourselves to make a choice to use them or not, or how much we want those to be in our lives.
And there's some great techniques that you've developed, David, in order to help us do that. And then, of course, the power of groups can also keep us accountable. We can have goals. We can share that with each other. We can get support. We can do role plays in small breakouts with, for example, the devil's advocate technique and other techniques.
Well, I know the devil's advocate is really a fun one. And maybe we could just illustrate that right now, the type of thing if people were to join one of your amazing and fantastic groups or maybe just one of your extraordinarily excellent ones. What kind of things they might be practicing in the groups. And that's one of the most fun role play techniques.
I have an idea. During COVID, I started to watch this TV show called Say Yes to the Dress for Women Go and Buy Wedding Gowns. Okay. And even now there's videos that are like three minute clips and I could sit on the couch and lose hours watching those three minute clips of people trying on wedding dresses. And so when I saw your group, I thought, what an awesome idea.
Cause I can totally, I totally do that.
Well, give us some, some tempting thoughts, Rhonda.
Well, this is really fun.
Okay, I'm going to write them down. This is really fun.
Like when I'm watching, I'm like, oh, would I like that dress? I kind of want to try on a wedding dress.
What else do you tell yourself?
We can run off and what is it when you get married? Elope. Yeah, we can still elope. I know. Awesome.
I think, oh, maybe my wedding dress wasn't that pretty compared to these dresses.
Yeah. And so when you zoom into that moment when you're deciding to watch it or not or to keep watching it, yeah, what else do you tell yourself? What excuses do you tell yourself? How do you decide this is really fun? I'd like to try that dress. I'm curious.
I'll only watch it for a minute.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll only watch it for a minute. Yeah. Any other?
That's what you tell yourself. I'll only watch for a minute.
I need to relax. This is a good way to relax. I've had a hard day. I love it. It's mindless. I'm not hurting anyone.
Yeah.
I'm writing all these down. Anything else, Rhonda?
Michael won't notice I'm gone.
Okay. Is there anything it says about your values in a good way that you're watching this or the kinds of things, kind of person you are, what you're interested in?
I love relationships. Yeah. I love supporting happy relationships.
Yeah, yeah. And anything else you tell yourself at that moment, what kind of justifies you watching this?
I brought my daughter-in-law to this store. It's called Kleinfeld's. And actually one of our team CBT therapists, Bob Schefter, who might be listening, I think his grandparent started this. One of his relatives I know started Kleinfeld's and is still active. So every once in a while I think I could talk to Bob Schefter about Kleinfeld's. And it's kind of bringing me into the community.
Yeah. What's Kleinfeld's?
That's the dress shop that this TV show is about.
Oh, okay. And this is one of the positive qualities we're working on right now?
Yeah, I can connect with Bob in New York.
I can bring my daughter-in-law there. Bob Schachter?
Yeah, his relatives started Kleinfeld's.
Oh, I see. Okay. Well, they must be doing very well now.
Yeah. Yeah, I think they're the biggest bridal shop in the country. I don't know in the world.
Wow.
David, would you want to tag team on playing the devil?
Oh, sure. Sure. Should we dive right into that?
Rhonda, anything else before we dive in or should we dive into that?
I think that's it.
Okay. Could I talk to you for a minute, Rhonda? Sure. You know who I am. You're the devil. Well, I'm not the devil. I'm a lovely friend of Rhonda's, and I'm totally innocent, and I know how hard you work. When you went and spent two months with your son and daughter-in-law, and they're two lovely people.
babies and and you worked your ass off the whole time and now you need to relax a little bit and so you deserve just a minute or two with your favorite tv show Kleinfeld's and and it's so you say yes to the dress now Rhonda and so my goal is to challenge this thought
I'm talking back to this thought.
Yeah, if you would like to. Yeah. If you would like to. You can see what comes up. Yeah. You can talk back to the devil and talk with David.
And to my lovely innocent friend.
Yeah, to your innocent friend. What's the best for you, Rhonda?
Well, you're right. I worked really hard night and day. with my grandchildren and son and daughter-in-law. And I do, I do deserve some mindless entertainment to take my mind off whatever it is I'm thinking about and watching this TV show takes my mind off it, but I don't need to watch it for hours and hours. That's too much time.
If I could, I could put a timer on and just watch it for 10 minutes and that would be enough.
Oh, but Rhonda, you can. You can just watch it for a minute. It'll be easy. Just watch it for a minute. And you love relationships, supporting happy relationships. Michael won't notice. You're not hurting anybody. Just watch it for a minute or two.
Yeah, forget that timer. Just turn the knob and indulge in the pleasure you so richly deserve now. So nice.
Yeah. All of those things are really true. Honestly, those are really true. But one minute can turn into three hours. And the next thing I know, I feel like my mind is numb and I'm completely drained and my feet could be falling asleep and I need to get up and take a walk. So in a way, it's better not to even watch it at all because it turns into...
this avalanche of other consequences that I don't foresee when I first started.
Well, but you can stop. You can stop when you want, Rhonda. And also, even if you do spend a while, it's not such a big deal. It'll bring you into the community. Bob Schachter's grandparents started Kleinfeld, for example, just one of the many examples. And you can talk with Bob about that. This is such a connecting kind of thing.
Yeah, that's true. And it is really fun to talk to Bob about it. I've done that a couple of times and still it's mind numbing. And there's a lot of other things I could do with those three hours than sitting on the TV. My eyes get blurred and I can kind of feel my brain cells dying.
Well, sure, that's all history stuff. But this is the new Rhonda who can sit down and watch for 10 minutes and then get on to other things and feel totally refreshed. And that's all we're suggesting to you is just to step into the future, the joyous Rhonda. And you can start now. Just reach over and turn that TV set on. You know, use the external control and let, let's get that yes to the dress.
That's so funny.
I have enjoyed, you know, I've, I've been there. I've gone there with my daughter-in-law when she was buying her wedding dress. I can completely relate to all those people buying dresses and, um, not to all of them. They do get a little narcissistic, but, uh, Like I said, the mind numbing can actually get to be very uncomfortable. So I kind of want to give it up.
So who's winning?
I'm winning, but it's a struggle.
Oh, really? Give us something else to tempt you with.
It's just really fun.
Yeah, it's just really fun, Rhonda. That's all it is. And you can have fun now. Yeah. Yes to the dress and done with fun later. We'll have fun sooner.
Yeah, it is really fun.
It's important to have fun, don't you think? Yeah.
Yeah, it is important to have fun. And there's a lot of different ways to have fun that don't numb myself out and turn me blurry-eyed.
Well, sure, you can go out and shovel snow or sweep the front porch or something like that. Yeah, if that's your idea of fun. Or you could, you know, wash the carpets or vacuum or, you know, do the dishes. Is that what you want to do?
No, those things aren't fun, but I could bake something or I could cook a nice dinner or I'm embarrassed to say this. I've stopped reading as much because I'm watching these videos.
Well, you can bake something and have the TV on in the kitchen and, you know, you can, you know, watch your dress and bake your cookies all at the same time.
Yeah. That takes away the fun of baking, though. That takes away the fun of baking. And like I was starting to say, it was kind of embarrassing to say that I've stopped reading as much. And I used to be a voracious reader. And I'd rather turn off the videos and sit down and read a really good book.
Who's winning?
That now I feel like I'm winning.
Big or small? Big. Big or huge? Huge. Huge. How did you get to huge?
I reminded myself what I could be doing instead that is equally as pleasurable, if not more, that doesn't have these yucky consequences of blurring eyes and mind numbing.
I love that. I love that one.
Yeah. Thanks.
Yeah. So we're really trying to tempt you. And then I love what David, of course, asked, like, what else could we say to tempt you? And that kind of zoned in to what might have been a sticking point. And then you were able to talk back to that. And you got to huge by reminding yourself of wanting to read again and remind yourself like what you could be doing instead. Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's beautiful. So that's something we'll do in our group. We'll do devil's advocate. We're going to kind of work up to that, um, by doing some testing, we'll have an accountability form where people can kind of monitor, um, we'll be doing self-monitoring. And there's also this beautiful thing of mission accomplished and sovereignly refused.
So when people set a goal and then they report without any excuses, just simply say mission accomplished or sovereignly refused. Um, But then and eventually we'll be doing devil's advocate with each other. And that can be a way to kind of get the motivation down into the body, like where we really we put ourselves in that moment of a decision whether to use or not.
In this case, technology screens and then can really challenge us and be able to talk back.
Well, I like to be very practical, and I'm sure that this group is going to be chock full of wonderfully helpful tools that really are effective. And suppose that I'm, you know, listening in Idaho or something, and I want more details about this group. Like, where can I go and sign up for it right now if I'm in the mood? How much does it cost? How often does it meet? What time of day will it meet?
Like, what are the... The specifics there.
Yes. Thank you, David. So this meets from January 22nd to February 26th. So starting next week, as far as I know, in terms of when this podcast will come out. And it's at noon Pacific time. It'll meet for an hour each week. It's $30 a session. And people can contact me if they can't afford that. And we'll try to work out something to find out more detail about these groups.
And actually, let me just mention that we also use some other techniques. We use some hypnosis techniques that we'll do some recordings of, which is a good way to help the body kind of automatic responses of the body, create new associations, also do some team techniques like future projection and things like that.
And then we'll be working with the triple paradox, some problem solving, relapse prevention, and breakouts and the power of groups. So just to add that in there. To get more information about this group and some other groups, which I can mention in a moment, you can go to feelinggreattherapycenter.com forward slash educational hyphen groups.
And this group will be there as well as our book club, as well as the Five Secrets groups and other educational groups. So that can be one link. You can remember feelinggreattherapycenter.com forward slash educational hyphen groups.
Educational what?
Educational groups, but with a hyphen in between it.
Educational dash group?
Yes, dash groups, plural.
Dash groups. Yeah. So if I'm in Idaho or Minnesota or Albania, I go to feelinggreattherapycenter.com forward slash educational dash groups. Correct, yes. And then I can find out about...
This tech addiction group, if I want to tighten up my life and get in control of how much time I'm spending in mindless tech things, television, Internet surfing, cell phone use all the time, whatever it might be, and find a lot of really... Helpful techniques and then other kinds of groups, too, that you can tell us about in a moment.
But one thing I missed that the tech group will be noon to one each week, once a week, an hour with practice there. It's 30 bucks a session. Contact Brandon if you can't afford that and he'll help you out. He has a special for $29.95. Okay. But he'll help you with whatever you need help with. But I didn't get, you said something about it starts January 22nd?
Yes, through February 26th.
So it's January 22nd through February 26th, and there'll be six sessions. Yes, yes. Okay. And what day of the week is it?
It's on Wednesdays.
Okay, great. That gives me all the info I need. And what are some of the other kick-ass groups that I'll find there at educational-groups?
Yeah, there's the Feeling Great Book Club, which we've been doing for a few years now, where I'm partnering with the wonderful Heather Clegg. What a fantastic group. teacher, person, and psychiatrist. And that is on Mondays from February 20th.
It's a 12-week group starting either on Mondays at 4 o'clock Pacific time on February 24th for 12 weeks or Wednesdays, February 26th at 8.30 in the morning Pacific time. And that will provide for people in most places in the world to be able to attend.
And this is a wonderful book where people read your book, Feeling Great, which is such a fantastic and clear book with tools for anxiety and depression to break through those to live a more joyful and relaxed life. And we'll do expert demos and you can join smaller breakout groups to practice what you're learning. That's sliding scale. It's $14 a session, but it's sliding scale.
We won't turn away anybody for financial reasons. And that we want to make just really accessible to everyone. So we price it low and even go down from there.
And, you know, as you know, I've heard so many great things about the Feeling Great Book Club. Maybe I'll be able to visit one of them this time around and say hello and answer some questions for folks.
But I know they really love it, and part of it is because you've been doing it so long, you've built up the teaching methods and the group morale-building methods so that people go and really have fun, really love these groups and the social connections, but also... Some of the people who've gotten really good with the ideas and the Feeling Great book have become small group leaders.
So you also get a small group experience in addition to the large group, because I think the groups can be as big as 80 or 100 in a group for the first section. And then at a certain point, you break into the small breakout groups for what, like 30 minutes for that? Or how does that work?
Yeah, it depends on each session, but yeah, generally 30, 35 minutes for the breakout groups. And you're right, each breakout group has a facilitator, which is really cool, which is a treat. And those breakout groups are smaller, maybe six people, maybe eight people, but that's kind of the maximum. So it's beautiful because people can then become vulnerable.
We keep the same breakout groups each week over these three months, and then people start to develop... more trust and security in that group and they can practice some of the techniques. We also practice the five secrets during those groups as a check-in, which also lets people become more vulnerable with each other and develop trust.
So people develop friendships and stay in touch long after the Feeling Great book club stops.
And that's $14 a group, which comes to about $12 an hour.
Yeah, I think it's like when, yeah, it's $168 total, $14 a group, which is, yeah, whatever that is an hour, it's 80-minute group sessions. Yeah.
Maybe more like $11 an hour or something. Now, why would I want to pay $11 and go to your groups when I could pay for some team therapists are charging $500 an hour or $1,000 an hour or I won't name names, but, you know, $1,200 or $1,300 an hour and demand two-hour sessions. Right.
So what can I get in your group for $11 an hour session or $14 a session that I can't get in their sessions for $2,500 for a single therapy session?
Right, right. Yeah, so in our groups, I think there is something about groups that can be really healing, having support from other people, being able to kind of chew through these ideas in your book. I love, David, when you write, and this is true with your app as well, you challenge people to do exercises and really engage with the material, and that's essential.
And now we can have this big group where you can see demos of people For example, the double standard technique and other techniques. And then you can go into the small groups and you can like work on ideas. You can share things about yourself with your peers, which is a little bit different than working with a therapist. So I think it can be its own thing. You can do it yourself without therapy.
You could also be seeing a therapist and do this to supercharge your therapy. Any of that can work well. The other thing we're going to do is we're going to have some app-specific breakout groups. So for people who are using your Feeling Great app, which is a fantastic app, by the way, we're going to have specific breakout groups.
So some portion of our breakout groups will be just for people using the app. So then they can work on that with other people and share their experiences with the app.
How great is that? So if you're a feeling great app user or plan to be, this is another way to speed your growth and learning. And I might say that the things I write, I always try to write clearly, illustrate things with an inspiring true story that brings it to life. But that alone, that book learning won't do it for you.
If you're struggling with low self-esteem and feeling inadequate and second rate and inferior and worthless or anxious or socially anxious, you're going to have to. to do the actual exercises. And that's where a lot of procrastination blocks people from opening the door to joy and inner peace and a transformed life.
And that's where you've supplied, Brandon, so brilliantly and with so much heart as well as entertainment value and intellectual power. powerhouse value, a place where people can go and find that motivation and do that practice. It's almost like my writing is all about riding a bicycle and how great it can be.
But you can read all of my books and you still wouldn't know how to ride a bicycle unless you get on and you fall once or twice and then you find your balance and then you practice writing and you get really good at it. And for that dimension of the learning, you can't beat Brandon's clubs for fun, for learning, for tears and laughter and practice.
And so if you kind of like the ideas that you're reading about or learning about in the app and you want to supercharge a little bit your forward movement. So where things really start happening in your life, this is a great way to do it. And I often have said that the best things in life are free. And that's why I've always promoted AA. Is AA perfect? Not at all.
They're very screwed up, to tell you the truth. But I can tell you this, if you've got an addiction, a hardcore addiction, you go to AA, they're going to give you something I could never give you in a session. And I can give you things that they could never give you. And so one plus one equals three.
And your groups aren't free except to people who need them, but they have that same power and probably more punch than an AA group would. but they're dedicated to depression and anxiety and other kinds of problems that are also very painful and disabling to people.
Thank you, David. What beautiful words. That's so generous and kind of you, and I really appreciate that.
And, Brandon, you've also done a group for people who are working with the app.
Yes, we did. What's that like? That was fantastic. People love the group and they absolutely love the app. They felt really connected to the group. The chatbot of the app that gave great empathy. And I think the learning modules are fantastic. So having them, it was a little bit like the book club. We structured it a little bit similarly. We did some demos.
We had people do five secrets in the breakout rooms. And then they would work on what they're learning through the app also with each other in the breakouts. I think people generally loved it, those groups. And we get feedback after every session. So like you're saying, David, we get better and better over time.
Yeah, that's the neat thing. That's the neat thing about it, that measuring things. Most therapists hate it and refuse to do it. And they're sure missing out on the measurement. the most clever secret of all to how we can grow as teachers and as therapists by getting data and looking at the data and seeing what turns people on, what turns them off.
And then it gives us kind of a, you might say, a competitive advantage.
Yeah, I think it's great. And sometimes it's hard to see feedback if it's negative feedback, but it's a gift. Feedback is a gift. It helps us grow and learn.
And once you've experienced the death of the self, then it's no longer hard to get negative feedback because you don't have any territory to defend. I heard through the grapevine that David doesn't get all of the credit for that book, Feeling Great, that he had some editors who worked tirelessly to go through that and give him tips on how to revise it and improve it.
Do you know who any of those people might have been, Brandon?
Well, I know there were a lot of folks, but I did have the pleasure of reading drafts.
Oh, you're the same Brandon. Feeling great about five times. And I was so grateful for all the heart and brilliant input you put in there. I remember you put in that poem that kind of about some medieval poem about the great death. Do you remember that one? I remember.
poem by roomie yeah yeah roomie yeah yeah do you remember anything about that poem i think i put it in the in the book what yeah it was a poem i think the one that you in the book was called inside this new love die your way begins on the other side your life is covered in thick clouds slide to the side um there's this beautiful part that says um
Take an ax to the prison walls, walk out like someone suddenly born into color. Do it now, the full moon. The speechless comes out now, something like that.
That is so beautiful and so neat that you remember that. And it sounds just like what we're trying to bring about with Team CBT. When instead of beating up on yourself with all of these, I'm not good enough and all these negative messages, you suddenly discover first.
that you're just being mean to yourself, like a bully, bullying little children, that there's something very mean spirited about doing that to yourself. You wouldn't probably wouldn't do that to other people, but also that those, those messages are just as the Buddha so often described them. And he would stand on a hill and shout to his followers. Uh, it's all bullshit. Uh,
And that's what he was referring to. And Rhonda has emphasized that I should use more four letter words on the podcast. And I promised her that I would follow her. But it is exactly like in that poem that you that medieval poem, you're stepping to the side where you're not all having clouds in your sky. And so.
We had that Tom, that Buddhist monk on the app recently, and he's also going to be on our Christmas edition coming out on December 23rd. But he talks about—and I didn't—you can't always understand what, you know, these— wise people are saying. And it's even harder because he's from New Jersey. And you think that he's going to be from Thailand or Tibet or something.
But he's just this really awesome young, young fellow. But he talked about, I asked him, you know, can you be happy all the time? And he said, well, you know, clouds do come into the sky. But the sun is always shining. And You know, and the clouds are not the sky, something like that. I just saw that. That was really, really neat that it's like that poem you can get, let go at any time you want.
You can let that self die. That's so beautiful. committed to needing things and trying to be special and thinking you're not good enough and just let all of that die. And when you die, that is actually not a funeral, but a rebirth, a celebration, like a birthday celebration, or suddenly you're alive. And you have to have experienced it, I think, to grasp what's
what it means because people have tried to explain it for hundreds of years, thousands of years, and people can't get it. But that's what we're trying to bring about with, with team CBT with, with your, Book clubs with externalization of voices with all of these techniques is to give people the tools to experience that kind of enlightenment.
It's not about feeling a little less depressed or even a lot less depressed. but to feel joy. But can we feel that all the time? No, but you can't. That's humanly impossible, I believe. But you can learn the techniques that work for you, and you can make life an awful lot sweeter. So the ratio of joy to feeling inwardly miserable changes greatly.
I don't know if that resonates with how either of you experience life and yourself.
Yeah, it's such a beautiful thing to see as we do some demos in the Feeling Great Book Club event and see some of these role play techniques you've developed are so powerful and with enough preparation, you know, going through the agenda setting, of course, the testing empathy.
And then getting to some of those, you can see people just shift and accepting their own humanity, accepting themselves as human and not having their egos be so much in the way. You know, some moments of like, as you call enlightenment.
I have a question for you, Brandon, because what you're teaching is as good as it gets. Did you ever wish you were like a Tony Robbins and you had 10,000 people at a time instead of 100?
No, I love working with large groups of people, but I also love working with small groups. And also the combination is beautiful. So I'm very happy with how the book clubs have turned out. And that's really thanks to you.
Yeah. Aren't you making millions? Aren't you one of these guru guys with Rolls Royces and stuff? Yeah. That's not what turns me on.
It's not what makes me happy.
You had $11 an hour. I don't think you're buying Rolls Royces. And that's not your motivation.
It's not my motivation, but it brings such joy to do these. And also, as you were speaking, it reminds me of the five secrets, which is also a way to lose our ego. Once we can truly disarm and let our ego step aside, having those skills is also a way to start to let our ego step aside.
And so to weave that into another plug for our groups, we also do these five secrets, what we call deep practice groups, where we have small groups of eight people about, and we work with people in that group and with breakouts to learn the five secrets and practice those deeply.
Sometimes we'll do a forced empathy exercise and really help people hone these skills that are so helpful in terms of communication in all kinds of areas of our lives.
So those are like five secrets groups that people can join. Also, if they go to this address, feelinggreattherapycenter.com forward slash educational dash groups, and they'll find these five secret groups as well. Absolutely. Yeah.
Yeah. And all people really need to remember is feelinggreattherapycenter.com, actually, because then you can you can find it there. Oh, yeah. If you want to go directly to the education, you can add that.
So if you're listening here and we don't often promote things too heavily on the app, but these groups are something we do heavily want to promote and push. So go and register now. Buy now.
And the thing is, is that if you're kind of on the verge of something and kind of struggling and having some hope to change your life, and you've picked up one of my books, Feeling Good or Feeling Great, and you kind of get it, but you're not kind of all the way to home base yet, and you see there's something real there, joining one of Brandon's groups
can be a really life-changing experience for you. It's not going to be costly. It's not going to cost you an arm and a leg. It's fun. They're sound. And they can be very life-changing. So I just feel blessed to know you, Brandon. And so Honored to get to do this kind of promotion, commercial promotion. We call this a small time and we're committed to being small timers.
And so if you want to change your life with the help of some loving small timers with powerful tools, join one of Brandon's clubs and you'll be delighted and shocked in a pleasant way. by how it can impact your life. Is that a fair way to put it, Rhonda?
It is a fair way to put it. I don't know many psychiatrists who run groups. And working with Brandon in the technology group, but also in the book clubs and the Five Secrets groups and the app group, you're working with him and Heather, who are both impeccable therapists and trainers and such warm people. loving guides to support somebody through their therapy journey.
You both are so kind and so heartwarming and I'm blushing here. So, but thank you so much. And, and just also for the ways that both of you touch so many people in such healing ways, it brings tears to my eyes to think about your work, David, over these decades and also to the podcast that just really touches people and heals people.
Thank you. We've had fun, and it's been such a blessing to get to work with you, Rhonda, and you've brought so much joy into the podcasts and your personality. Yeah. You've almost made us think you're important. We haven't gone that far with it yet. No, definitely not.
Don't go that far.
You've been a fantastic friend and blessing, and you, Brandon, too. And I just feel so grateful all the time for what's happening in our community. It's just mind-blowing. And there's some really fantastic things coming up. And I just feel so, so lucky. Yeah. And I'm lucky to have all of you who are listening. And somebody asked me about the app. I don't know if it was earlier today or yesterday.
And I was able to it was yesterday. And I was able to say, you know, the odd thing is we did a survey of our app. listeners. And I was shocked to discover, and you'll know if my memory is right on this, but Ron, it seems to me that the people who responded to the app, and it probably wasn't a random selection, and there were only two or three or 400 of them.
But I think they were saying, most of them, that they've listened to every app since the very beginning. Weren't they saying that?
Every app, every podcast.
Every podcast, that's what I mean. Every podcast, yes. Plus they've listened to every app in the world and translated each of them into many languages. But no, they've listened to every podcast since the beginning. It's hard to believe. Yeah. So thank you all of you for... Sticking with us. We're still early January, so Happy New Year to all of you folks.
And thanks for being with us in the past year and over the holidays. And we look forward to another just fabulous year for all of you. And we have all kinds of amazing and fun podcasts coming up. So thank you so much.
Podcasts are such a gem. And as a therapist, they reorient me towards good therapy every time I hear them. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic.
Oh, thanks.
Good to know.
And I wanted to say, David, that meeting you has been the best thing that happened to me after meeting Michael.
No, the podcast or the meeting you and working with you. Yeah.
And our friendship and and just the ability to learn and grow with you is. Really been the big one of the biggest honors of my life.
Yeah, and it's just so fantastic what's happening now. It just seems to be on the verge of exploding or kind of slowly exploding. So I think is that it for today?
I think that's it. And I just want to encourage people who have a cell phone. I think everyone I know has a cell phone at some point feels like they've been involved in some kind of mindless use of it. So I think everyone who owns a cell phone could benefit from joining your group, Brandon.
Or anyone who's addicted to any kind of technology, surfing or binge-watching television or anything where you're – Video games. Yeah, video games, getting sucked into technology and you'd like a little help getting out of that hole. Well, you'll find that in Brandon's tech support addiction group. Yeah. New meaning of tech support. Right, right.
Yeah. Okay. So until next time.
Thank you, guys.
Thanks, everyone. This has been another episode of the Feeling Good podcast. For more information, visit Dr. Byrne's website at feelinggood.com, where you will find the show notes under the podcast page. You will also find archives of previous episodes and many resources for therapists and non-therapists. We welcome your comments and questions.
If you want to support the show, please share the podcast with people who might benefit from it. You could also go to iTunes and leave a five-star rating. I am your host, Rhonda Borowski, the director of the Feeling Great Therapy Center. We hope you enjoyed this episode. I invite you to join us next time for another episode of the Feeling Good Podcast.